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If this describes your current situation, then please be assured there are hundreds if not thousands like you who are at various stages of waking up to the reality of the JW faith. As you probably suspect already, there is more to this religion than meets the eye, and Watchtower literature has not been telling you the full truth about the organization’s history.
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Hi Excelsior
Thanks for you kind thoughts, I think the more we read the Bible on our own, the more we seem drawn to each other. Pondering Jesus ways and thoughts seems to makes us more conscious of our own weakness and faults, that we want to help others know of his redeeming qualities.
Yeah, I have checked out the JW Struggle site and your right, there are many good articles, been written in a non condemning way which helps remove that dissent ex-witness may feel for being mistreated by the WTS.
May you continue to have peace
Duds
Thank you so much Duds, it’s great to see there are like minded folks.
I have heard about his book and he is not the only scholar that brings it out. I think the WT must know that 607 BCE is not accurate but they keep trying to keep the Cong together. If and when they change that they will have a lot of explain to do. But if you are wrong you are wrong so why not admit it and just deal with it.
I think it would throw so may JW’s into mental distress they are afraid to do it. Also, if they are so wrong on this it begs the question that how many more of their teachings are they wrong with? Since this is their main teaching of all their prophetic sayings and so much is tied to this teaching it would change their entire approach to everything they have ever stood for.It could even be their downfall and cause them to dissolve as a religion? I am not saying it would but it very well could happen.
ARE YOU SINGLE? LOL
THAT WAS TO CEDARS.LOL THANK YOU FOR THE WORK YOU DO!!! YOUR VERY COURAGIOUS! I BELIEVE MY VIEWS ARE CHANGING FOR GOOD THIS TIME AND IT SCARES THE YOU KNOW WHAT OUT OF ME AND I CATCH MYSELF LIVING IN FEAR FOR A MOMENT THEN I REMEMBER THAT THEY CAN ONLY KILL MY SPIRIT IF I ALLOW THEM TOO! BRAVO!
Hi Holy Conolli
Yeah,I’m looking forward to the day they admit, they were wrong about 607B.C.E. That will mean all the dates’ they ever spoke about, have proved false. Its possible, that a big split might come among them. If they admit it, it won’t be because it was the light getting brighter. Many,brothers and others have for years, exposed this error. Many, unjustly d/f for it.
Will they be humble enough to honestly, confess this and apologize to all? I’m not sure they could, when you look at all the changes that will have to take place. Reinstating all wrongly d/f.brothers and sisters. Change every book explaining 607/1914/1919. introduce new doctrines to replace the 1919 cleansing and inspection,and many many more as well. That’s a lot of explaining to do ,and who is going to believe them?
That is going to take a lot of faith!
Keep going my brother don’t let this day, stop you from looking to the day, Jesus cleans up all this mess.
peace and love Duds
Thnks Duds. I doubt very much that if they do admit it is an erroneous date that they will go back and change everything or admit BIG TIME failure. It is not something they do. However, things can change as we all know and it is possible. If they do change it and admit they were wrong then what would that do to the organization as a whole? What would the publishers do? Who would stay and who would leave and it would create an entirely different religious doctrine? It might be like even some today who still hold to Russell’s teachings? I see them on TV from time -time or read something about them? They still believe Russell was the F&D slave even after all these years? also, it could be like when Rutherford took over. It caused a Big Split 50/50 or more left the WT of those days?
does it really matter anymore since they are wrong?
If they ever do admit these wrong teachings then will they still be JW’s or will they merge with another theological idea or religion? In reality they are not much different from the former “World Wide Church of God” run by the late Herbert Armstrong. When he died there was a Big Split as some wanted to stay w his teachings and others abandoned his teachings and went with traditional Christianity. They split into so MANY different sects and groups that they are not even recognizable anymore. Some kept the same name of the church as before but the teachings are completely different. They even came out and apologized for “persecuting” other Christian denominations for decade. Herbert Armstrong was very similar to the WT Gov Body in stating that all other Churches and teachings were false and they would be destroyed at the 2nd coming/Armageddon which was always imminent. He and the WT taught similar teachings and doctrines although he was a Sabbatarian and kept the Mosaic dietary law. The point is he was very controlling. They shunned and DF’d people.If anyone left the Church the family could not speak with them. He had total control over the Church.It was a cults.So if the JW’s come out with major doctrine l changes it may very well dissolve what we currently have known as Jehovah’s Witnesses over the last 60+ years.
Hi Holy Conolli
Glad to hear from you again, I studied with the Worldwide Church of God before I became a witness. Very familiar doctrines, though their belief that God was recreating Himself in saving mankind was kind of weird. I could never accept that. It wasn’t long after that I began studying with the witnesses to convert them, lols, ended up being one, but now divorced from the WTS. That was around the time when Garner Ted Armstrong got sprung cheating on his wife. Now you hardly hear of them, Garner Ted has a TV program and someone is carrying on with Herberts teachings. I think there are some other brake away groups as well.
There is also many break-a ways from the wts around the globe, all with some message of truth. But when the wts finally comes clean, it will most likely be too late to save face. I think there is going to be one big mess up.There will be few, if none at all, who will put trust in them again.May they all seek a good relational-ship with their Savior Jesus Christ and exercise faith in Him as the Way the Truth, and the Life.
Peace to you my friend,
Duds
That is interesting that you studied with the WWC of God? I have only know a few of those folks over the years.
In your opinion were they more of a cult and more Controlling than the WT is?
As a child growing up my Mother who was not a JW nor was I raised one always said to me, ” If you are wrong”..you are wrong, just admit it and correct it and move on. That thought always stuck with me in my JW years as a young man and as a older adult. It always bothered me that the WT WOULD NEVER admit their errors or wrong policies. Although they were HELL BENT on the publishers to repent or immediately get DF’d they would never do it for themselves. As time went on it became more clear that they were more concerned about “SAVING FACE” than correcting or admitting their error. also they were so quick to condemn Christendom or any religion that differed from them and even calling others false prophets who made erroneous predictions on the end of the World etc. but in their case it was always” Oh Some were Over anxious” or at times bc we desired the fulfillment of God’s promises some may have Overreacted? It was never them or never WE JUST ARE WRONG it was always the blame game to others.Even the LATE HAROLD CAMPING who made a BIG STIR for his May 23rd 2011 “JUDGEMENT DAY” prophecy all over the world thru Billboards, radio programs, preachers on the street at least came out after nothing happened and apologized? He was very DOGMATIC that he was right and would not be wrong and used some weird numerology that he thought was some bible code to come up with dates etc for the 2nd coming of Christ..yet he admitted his error on prophecy and apologized. The WT has never ever done that? Those who live in Glass houses should not throw Rocks?
Hi Holy Conolli
Herbert W. Armstrong was a very authoritative, powerful speaker. He was very persuasive he had great ability to use the Bible to fit his theology. I was very easily influenced in those days, every thing he spoke about seem to be backed up by the Bible, that impressed me, and I fell for his teachings. Many of the doctrines were familiar to the WTS which made it pretty easy for me to become a witness. The turning point in rejecting the WWCoG was Ps110.1-2. Their teaching that God was recreating Himself didn’t go well with this scripture. It was like Jehovah saying to Jehovah sit at My own right hand, which to me was absurd. How could Jehovah say such a thing? It made more sense that he was talking to Jesus who later became David’s Lord and whom Jehovah exalted and made Him Lord and King after His resurrection 33CE. From that time on I dedicated my life to serve Jehovah and His appointed King Jesus Christ. I still am dedicated to them. I was never baptized into an organization. The WTS may like to dis-fellowship me, but they haven’t, and it wont matter if they do in my absence. I will always be known as one of Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses they can’t take that away from me. They have no inherent claim to the name, its there for all Christians. Their non scriptural doctrine to shun others is null and void to all, who still believe Jesus is God’s son, and is now the ruling as King.
Have Peace
Duds
Duds
You make some interesting points I must say. I agree with the fact that we are not baptized into an Organization.
That is not what Christianity is about at all. We all must have FREDDOM IN CHRIST not an Organization.Sometimes when I really think about t and all the disruption that these religions have caused among honest hearted ones I conclude that belonging to almost any religion and claiming that Doctrine is just nonsense.
The bible never talked about that at all. Remember Paul was disputing that very thing when he said we are not from Paul or Cephas but we are one in Christ? So the same thing here…we can not be baptized into an organization or be a Catholic or a Baptist or the WWCOG or JW’s? We are Christians if we believe. The Bible message is simple. Man has made it difficult.God created us and all the Universe. Jehovah is over everything. Man sinned and lost his way, Man needs a Savior, the Savior is the Lord Jesus Christ.Jesus is God’s gift to man. It is a free gift that we need to accept. If we do we will receive Eternal Life. Jesus will rule over mankind in his Kingdom.
Hi holy Conolli
I’m with you,that’s exactly how I feel too.Freedom in Christ!
Love that scripture you quoted about Paul saying,” I belong to Cephas another to Paul” yes, we are all one in Christ, we all belong to Him. There is no organizational ownership. That’s not saying we can’t be organized, but it something we all do together, willingly and without compulsion, under the loving leadership of Christ.
have peace
Duds
Duds
Also, when we are organized to do something Spiritual or to preach or whatever we still need to have freedom to make our own decisions based on a God Given mind and conscience.Christianity was not a dictator ship ruled by a few harsh men watching every move. BTW, I am going to San Diego tomorrow for some business and I have decided I am going to go by Beth Sarim where Rutherford built the house that he grant deeded over to King David and the other Prophets that he said would be resurrected before Armageddon? The WT does not like to talk about that and if they do they try to claim he was there for “health” reasons? Oh yes, with his Luxury mansion and luxury Cars back in 1929 the year of the great Depression? I am going to take some photos of it. At one time it was a 100 acre estate. Now homes are built around it. That was a pretty wacky Idea and Doctrine he taught among many others.
Hi Holy Conolli
Yes, the Judge lived a life of luxury, while he had the poor preach his books and teachings from door to door. All under the guise Armageddon was about to happen. The society did a good job of covering it up.
According to them, and their latest teachings on the FDS, He is the one, Jehovah and Jesus must have chosen as his servant in 1919. He must have represented the small band of loyal Bible Students.
quote
“(They were pleased with a small band of loyal Bible Students who showed that their heart was with Jehovah and his Word)” wt13 pp12
They don’t say that outright. However there was no GB than, so who else, was there to fill the role of FDS? Only the judge. He came to power in 1916 after the death of Russell and continued for many years there after. He had to be that composite FDS all by himself until the GB was formed many years later. Very confusing! I guess they can live with that but I can’t.
How did the trip go? What was house like?
Cheers Duds
You are worse then what you say jws are. You say your site is religiously neutral? My guess is that you have a personal peeve against the witness and you want to dupe the easily persuaded too. There is nothing good about the witness? Were you at one time a jw? What do you have to offer?
Hi Elderwannabe
I don’t know if your addressing it to me personally or to all on this site, or just to Cedars.
I assume from your handle you are a JW or XJW. I am still one of Jehovahs’ Christians Witnesses, but I don’t agree with the WTS.
My peeve is, that they promote themselves as an organisation of truth, but their prophesies, and many other teachings, show them to be otherwise. 607 B.C.E, 1914/1919 for example, and there teaching on the FDS and this generation. A quick look over the info on jwfacts will reveal that.
Many on this site have been hurt by the the WTS stance on shunning, and d/f for simply just holding a different view on some scriptures.
While I think its too late for WTS reform, I hope many others will see the errors of the WTS and escape its grip. This site as I see it, holds out as a haven where like minded gather to encourage and share their experiences.
By reading Cedars blogs and other notable links on this site I think you will see there is a lot to offer.
Have peace Duds
Hi elderwannabe
I posted an earlier note but its disappeared.I don’t know if your addressing me or all on the site.
If its me then thanks for the the thought that, I maybe worse then the jws., I don’t intend to be.
Would you prefer that ‘the easily persuaded’ to remain duped or learn the truth?
I’d like them see the errors of WTS so they can escape its grips. Yes, I’m one of Jehovahs’ Witnesses who has been hurt by the lies and falsehoods that the WTS teach.
And Id like to help others learn those truths which expose the WTS so they can be free of manipulation.
May you have peace
Duds
Thank you. One year ago I came to live with my lovely partner. We have 8 grandchildren between us and life is good. His ex wife and 2 daughters are staunch Jehovahs witnesses. A son in law is an elder. After 6 months of tolerating their appalling and shocking behavior I realised that my partner was terrified that he would never see his grandchildren again as I had confronted them about their bizarre beliefs. I feel so sorry for him. He adores his family. Now they speak to him but I am shunned even though I teach one of their children at the local school! I am so grateful for aawa. I read the site news and comments every day and that gives me strength. You are wonderful people. Thanks for being there.
Duds, you can see the similarities clearly with the Worldwide Church of God, SDA, and the Witnesses. Shunning was big in the WWCOG, you were told to stay away from medicine and they had lots of directions on what you could or not do in the bedroom. Of course such rules didn’t interfere with Herbert’s incestuous relationship with his daughter or Garner Ted’s serial adultery with wives of pastors under him, seducing coeds at Ambassador College and the nickel and dime ordinary extramarital affairs. I am not making gossipy or speculative accusations, the dirty laundry has been admitted to.
All three groups could well be called Adventist off-shoots, with extremely interesting characters leading the groups. Studying from the outside is fascinating but I have great sympathy for those who had to reconcile their faith with the actions and words of their leaders.
Hi Art Fern
Yes, I never became a member of the WWCOG but I certainly, study many of their doctrines before becoming a witness.That was before Garner Ted was caught out. Never knew about Hebert’s ill adventures seems like it ran in the family (lols) My dealing with the SDA is when I meet them in F/S and from a young man we had working for us. I have a friend who was bought up a SDA and became a witness we now do things differently. We don’t go a long with all the falseness coming from the wts. I’m amazed how they have in the last few years have misquoted and mislead and told outright lies to defend their false doctrines. Especially how they interrupt the FDS and GB and that they were chosen as that in 1918/1919.
Their doctrine of 607BCE for destruction of Jerusalem is perhaps one of the biggest lies of modern day religious history, and they have known that to be a lie since the mid 70s. Now they are caught up in a whirlpool of self deception without a way out.
The next couple of years will be telling, they are going to have to face up to it eventually, I don’t know how they will save face!
May you have peace!
And Cheers!
Duds
Good to hear from you again. I used to think that the 1914 doctrine and the FDS and GB and 607bce would be the undoing of the WT. Now as I have talked with many JW’s I am not sure it will effect them in that way. It seems the ones I talk to just don’t seem to care much like it doesn’t really matter? Well, it mattered to me all my JW years. I just couldn’t quite go along with it 100% bc it seemed so unscriptural and not conclusive enough. Especially that Jesus came in 1914 but we cannot see him and that was the 2nd coming of Christ? I think the modern day JW is being programmed to slowly accept anything they tell them and not to question things at all. Just SHUT UP and Believe what we say!! Or I thin a large number of then do not want to face the facts that they may have wasted their lives serving men.They may also become more and more mainstream as time goes on like the WWC did or the SDA’s did. I think there will be a BIG shakeup soon though or perhaps a GOVERNIBG BODY member will leave due to flip flopping and become a modern day Ray Franz?
Hi Holy Connoli
Yeah, I’ve been over at Topix discussing things with them, I’ve pop in a few times to keep up with Cedars posts.
I tend to agree with you about the witnesses, they are being well groomed about accepting what the GB says, anything they say is going to be accepted regardless of how inaccurate it is.
Perhaps, some will see through the mirage and make a break, but the fear of losing friends and family by dis-fellowshiping is a strong force.
Recent w/ts have been stressing that witnesses should be avoiding all kinds of apostate material, hating opposing websites, not sharing e-mails etc with anyone speaking contrary to the GB.
It’s sad that the wts has this crazy notion that anyone seeing something different to them is wrong, the general public they call on are not up to date with jargon of the wts and sites like Cedars and wt facts are great accesses for them to see the other side.
Cheers
Hi Holy Connoli
Thanks for your thoughts, I posted a response the other night, but noticed to night it has not been posted. Don’t know what happen there. Don’t have time tonight to redo but will catch up soon.
Cheers Duds
Ok Duds. Look forward to hearing from you.Hope things are going well.
Hi Holy
Sorry for the delay. been over on Topix, discussing Dan Ch 4 and the Gentile times. Wts has made a mess of that. There is no parallel that resembles what the wt says about Nebuchadnezzar dream. Just a lot of wishful thinking!
What about this, I was prompted to check out Rutherford “Millions now living will never die” went to their site and this is what I got;
Grateful for My Precious Memories! (8 occurrences)
The Bible lecture “Millions Now Living Will Never Die” proved to be a timely witness in our extensive territory.
w01 8/1 pp. 23-27 – The Watchtower—2001
“The Spirit and the Bride Keep On Saying: ‘Come!’” (5 occurrences)
In that year, the public talk entitled “Millions Now Living May Never Die” offered hope that many will gain life in a paradise earth after the battle of Armageddon.
w10 2/15 pp. 14-18 – The Watchtower—2010
Can you see how they have blatantly lied? Deceptively changed “will” to “may”. Big difference between “will win” the lottery and “may win” the lottery. It beats me why they can’t be honest instead of misleading the people.
May you have peace!
Duds
HI Duds
THE WT cannot be honest about the Gentile times bc it really doesn’t exist? Like you said it is wishful thinking on their part. I don’t think they really belive it anymore themselves but sine it s their main doctrine and everything revolves around it if they admit it or discard it no telling what will happen so they are “protective”of it but more in a quiet way these days.I guess there saying , that this “generation” will by NO MEANS pass away until all these things occur really means it will nt pass away unless the WT says it will!!
i think the next time i get accused of being apostate Ill aks them why its ok for the GB to change its mind but not me. are they not apostates too? after all now they dont agree with themselves from a few years ago. they should all be disfellowshipped huh?
in this case weve all been vindicated.
I am in my thirties now and no longer and JW. Once I became an adult I decided to do my own thing. Anyways, I just wanted to say that growing up with parents who tell you that people who celebrate Christmas are worshipping Satan, really screws with a little girls mind. :/ It made me think all my friends and extended family members were bad. But at the same time, when my birthday would come and I was this little girl wishing for a birthday party like all my friends and never got one present my whole life…I felt insecure. Sad. I spent my childhood crying every Christmas morning. It’s tough on children.
Feel free to email me if you want to interview me but, as I still respect all religions, I would appreciate being anonymus. I have alot of things built up in my mind from how I was raised in a strict JW household. I hated it.
I’m 16 years old and have tons of doubt about being a Jehovah’s Witness. It’s my senior year of high school and a typical teen has tough decisions to make regarding colleges. But not me! I’m supposed to be a pioneer and work a part time job in a restaurant. That is not what I want to do! I am capable of so much more and I just feel as if I am being held back. I want to be a journalist. But that won’t happen as long as I am a Jehovah’s Witness. I have no courage. What can I do?
Hi Amy. I sure don’t envy you with being where you are now. The biggest regret I have is getting involved in the “Truth” when I got out of school and even just bringing up the idea of college to the ones studying with me, made me feel like I was a criminal for even bringing it up. My suggestion is to get a hold of “Captives of a Concept” and reading it carefully and then using the suggestions in that book, ask for a Bible study in the Proclaimer’s book. That book (Captives of a Concept) points out many things in the Proclaimers book that would prove to your parents that God could never have chosen the Watchtower Organization in 1919. You can’t just convince anybody who is a died in the wool Witnesses any other way. No matter what you tell them, they won’t believe it but if you can point it out to them, little by little from that book and the Proclaimer’s book, they, hopefully will come to realize that they (your parents) are in the wrong religion. I sure wished it could be easier for you but doing it that way will take some time. You should tell your parents that since this is your entire life you are talking about, that you want to know the history of the Organization.
Thank u
I hope it works and you are welcome.
I am not surprised by the change but it is blatant. I noticed long ago most of the articles are riddled with words such as….possibly, apparently, it seems, could be…..
Oops…. That last comment was for Duds
The WT just came out with an article in recent WT pretending to still believe the 607 BCE story? They had a short article with a supposed Bible Study trying to understand the 607-1914 end of Gentile rule nonsense. I know the GB cannot really believe that anymore?
Amy,
I would like to suggest a compromise, if that is possible in your circumstances.
Why not attend college part time? Perhaps choosing a course that will provide you with a “Witness Friendly” career? I know elders who are dentists and other professions that they learned whilst Witnesses.
If you are in the US, all of your credits will add up, and you can always take more classes as you progress in your academic career.
I would not suggest linking going to college with deprogramming your folks. Keep them separate issues for now.
It is a fact that the wtbts pay for men to take degrees in law, so why can’t you go to college part time?
I attended college with just the equivalent of a high school diploma, by completing an access to higher education course. It is never too late to study!
I hope this advice proves useful to you and good luck with your studies.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
I was introduced to Jehovah at a very young age and was off and on with attending meetings and having a bible study until I was 16 then alas the “world” got the better me. For the next 24 years I did the best to become a part of this world. Even found a a church I began to attend regularly for a few years until recently. I could never shake the feeling that what the church’s were teaching just wasnt true. I truly believe Jehovah’s Witnesses have a correct interpretation of scripture especially concerning matters of Jehovah and his son Jesus. I was out in the “world” long enough to get a good understanding that there is nothing good out there for me. I see alot of distrust among the leadership from the comments I am reading. I used to feel the same way and to be perfectly honest I still have doubts. The one thing I do believe and you can call me crazy but I know Satan is real and he is truly the “author of confusion”. The Watchertower Society is a human organization and they are not infallible people. The literature I read and discern using my bible and referencing other bibles has helped me in ways I am not sure you can even imagine or maybe just forgotten or become disallusioned. I look at where I was mentally a year ago and where I am now and I have seen how Jehovah is working in my life. We all have doubts. Doubts kept me away for nearly 25 years. When I look at this world everything seems so clear to me. Whether the new system comes next year or 100yrs from now makes me no difference. Im not worrying about whether the governing body got an end times prophecy accurate. Im trusting completely in my God Jehovah anf the one he sent Jesus Christ. Men dont have it all figured out. Moses had doubts. Abraham had doubts, Elijah, Jeremiah, Micah all of them. People said they were crazy. People call me crazy for being one of JWs. That used to bother me when I was 16 but now at 40 it doesnt. The Bible is my guide and I trust Jehovah to put the people in my life who will keep me spiritually uplifted and able to face anything the Enemy throws my way. People ask me what if your wrong. If I am wrong then the Bible says to dust I will return. I will simply be dead. Jehovah God will not forsake me. I wrote this not to put down anyone or make anyone feel bad but just know doubt will come questions will arise dont let things cause you to stumble. I am glad I made it back. Sorry to ramble on and on but I just felt compelled to speak. Have a good evening.
Hello..
I have a question I believe you guys can help me answer..
I would first like to say you guys are an inspiration to all of humanity. To break away from Spiritual Slavery is a sign that humanity can make its Heaven on Earth.
I am not a JW, Nor have I had many in contact other than your usual Morning Door Knockers!
I have recently decided to do some Soul Searching again. I was brought up with many Christian Beliefs in many different religions, but I found myself in a very vulnerable position last few weeks. I have been speaking with a JW.. I found her very nice, and I thought she was making some pretty interesting points about scripture. So I went off again, reading the Bible and trying to find meaning to all this scripture.. Without submitting to religious belief.
I now have some friendly debates with my JW friend. Whenever I get to see her, No invite to house for a non needed bible interpretation. But I am at a point where I am now simply interested on what she has to say about scripture, so im debating the invitation. She is just sooooo niceee!!!! but Ok enough life story, im looking for a opposite point of view. As I believe its wise to do..
1)What do you like least about JW?
2)What do you think is the best thing about JW? if your not yet a member or are also considering learning more.. then what do you find Most Attractive or Inspiring about it??
3) Other comments..
I just love other comments…
I thank you.. may GOD.. whoever he is to you. Bless you and guide you on your own path..
Hi Oscar. I love your question and this is my answer to you. I’d get a copy of Crisis of Conscience or you can read it from JWsurvey. Cedars has it under life stories on the right side of the Title page under life stories and it’s Cedar’s story “The Story of Cedars – A Prisoner No More” and you can read it for free if you prefer to read it that way.
Ray Franz was one of the Governing Body members of Jehovah’s Witnesses so he had an inside look at how the Watchtower is run. Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t allowed to read his book because Ray Franz was disfellowshipped for apostasy. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not allowed to read any literature that brings into doubt the legitimacy of the Watchtower’s claim that they are the only spokesman from God to man. So, that leaves out anything and everything that might teach differently than what the Watchtower teaches. Jehovah’s Witnesses are banned from examining the history of their own religion, while they do encourage all others that they study with to study the history of that other religion.
You need to read Crisis of Conscience before you talk to your Witness friend the next time and these are the questions I would ask them after you have read the book. Before you ask him or her any questions, first make it clear to them that you have read that book. Since you are not a Witness, you are allowed to read it. If any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses were allowed to read that book and read it, they would not be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses anymore, so that’s why it’s so very important that the Watchtower Society doesn’t want any of it’s followers to read that book.
Questions to ask your friend:
Have you read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz (allow to answer and most likely will say no)
Ask why not? (allow to answer and will most likely say it’s because he was an apostate)
Ask them to define what is an apostate? (let them answer)
Ask them then if he got disfellowshipped for apostasy, it had to be after he turned apostate right? (They will say yes)
Ask them then what about the books he wrote for the Watchtower when he wasn’t disfellowshipped, such as the Aid to Bible Understanding and the James books? Would you (friend) consider those also to be apostate reading? (They won’t know what to say)
Ask them, at what point do you think his writing would be considered apostate? (They won’t know what to say)
Ask them, what if Ray Franz, when he was still in good standing, disagreed with the majority of the Governing Body when it came to major Watchtower policy? Would you say then that he was going against the Holy Spirit since he was going against what the majority said was the “truth?” (Let them answer. They won’t know what to say, but they might think that he was going against Holy Spirit.
Ask them if as long as the majority made major decisions affecting the rest of Jehovah’s Witnesses, then the Holy Spirit would be helping them to make a correct decision then? (They’d probably say yes)
Tell the Witness friend that when Ray Franz was on the Governing Body in 1972, the majority of the Governing Body made it policy that it wasn’t adultery for a man to have sex relations with an animal or another man but it was Ray Franz who went against the majority of the Governing Body and argued that it was adultery and grounds for divorce.
Ask that friend of yours: So who do you think had the Holy Spirit, Ray Franz or the Governing Body? (Let them answer) They would have to say Ray Franz or else why would the Watchtower have had to just a few months later, admit they had made a mistake it was adultery and grounds for divorce and print a retraction.
So, the last question to your Witness friend would be: So, why do you think that the Watchtower disfellowshipped Ray Franz, when he obviously did have the Holy Spirit and the rest did not? Do, you think it’s possible that they disfellowshipped him to keep him quiet so he would not be able to tell anybody about how the Watchtower does not have God’s Holy Spirit after all and that’s why his books are banned?????
Hi Oscar. I have done a little more research and I wanted to add to my last comment to you.
Before you start asking your Witness friend the questions that I posted to you above, I would like to have you start out with this questions first:
What would you think of a religion that told it’s members that it was not scriptural grounds for divorce and remarry if one of the mates had homosexual intercourse with someone other than their mate or if they had sex with animals and that the innocent mate had to stay with that person. If they did divorce and remarry, they’d be excommunicated? What would you think of that religion?
(Allow for response. They will probably think it’s a terrible religion)
Ask your friend: Is this a religion you would want to belong to? Do you think God could be approving and blessing a religion like that?
Now Oscar this is for your information and this is a direct quote from the 1956 Watchtower Oct. 1, page 591 “Sodomy (or the unnatural intercourse of one male with another male as with a female), Lesbianism (or the homosexual relations between women), and bestiality (or the unnatural sexual relations by a man or woman with an animal) are not scriptural grounds for divorce.”
This was official Watchtower policy from at least 1956 until the December 1972 page 767 Watchtower when it was Ray Franz who was able to convince the rest of the Governing Body the error of the Watchtower’s ways and they decided it was adultery and grounds for divorce after all.
Oscar, you can relate what that 1956 Watchtower says and they can look it up if they don’t believe you, which they probably won’t but they might come back with the “that’s old light” excuse but then you could say “no, it wouldn’t be old light because they restated the very same policy in the 1972 Watchtower January 1, pages 31, 32.
Your Witness friend won’t have an answer for that. You, knowing all this is something your friend has been purposely kept in the dark about. It’s a cult and not a very good one at that. Run as fast as you can from it and don’t get involved. That is my advice if you want to be happy.