What can we all do to help?

There are many small ways we can help free people from Watchtower's influence

There are many small ways we can help free people from Watchtower’s influence

It’s only through happenstance that I came to be an admin here at JWsurvey, but it was an opportunity I was happy to accept, because I love helping the cause.

One of my duties is sorting any contact emails that arrive. I often see messages of support and thanks for the information provided here.

A recurring theme in these messages is a desire to help. Speaking from personal experience, I can completely relate. Curtailing Watchtower’s influence is a cause I fully support.

Like so many of you reading this, my time as a Witness is marked with painful memories of unnecessary grief caused by Watchtower’s policies. When it all got to be too much, I had to make the difficult decision to leave behind those I had grown up with, including my immediate family.

The past twelve years have been a time of rebuilding and discovering what life really is all about. I’m never sorry that I decided to leave, but I still resent what I had to go through to get to where I am today.

My parents and sister have no contact with me. And, even though I live three hours from my hometown, news of my involvement with the ex-JW movement appears to have spread. I’ve recently started experiencing shunning when out and about in my current location. This new development has made me wonder what more I can do to help stop this from happening to others.

Great things can be achieved when we pull together under a common cause

Great things can be achieved when we pull together under a common cause

I don’t consider myself to be a leader in the cause. I’m not the type to uncover secrets and expose hidden policies. Truth be told, there are already so many who do this, and in my opinion they do it well. Cedars and others like him are doing a great job of putting Watchtower’s flaws out there for the public to see.

New YouTube videos are being added every day. Facebook and Twitter are buzzing with stories about things Watchtower wants to keep quiet. The information is there, and that’s where WE come in.

All of us have a unique opportunity to make all this effort pay off. Others have done the hard part, now it’s our turn to spread the information. We can all draw attention to the stories and blogs by sharing them with others. By word of mouth and social media, we can each play a part in getting the message out to a wider audience.

It may require an act of courage, or stepping out of our comfort zone. But unless more of us take this leap, the efforts of those doing the research and writing cannot reach their full potential. We can all be the backing chorus to the work being done. By lending our voices, we make the message stronger.

The more issues such as shunning and mishandling of child sex abuse are put in the public eye, the more momentum builds. Every opportunity we take to share is an opportunity to help someone avoid the pain we’ve experienced inside the Watchtower.

With increasing numbers of active Witnesses using the internet, we have a chance to show them the reality of their “truth.” As opinions start to change, everything we do puts just a little more pressure on Watchtower to make reforms and end their oppressive and often life-threatening practices.

As your fellow chorus member, I’m asking you all to consider supporting those who are leading the charge in the fight against Watchtower by sharing their message at every opportunity. The more we speak up, the more the world will notice, and lives could even be saved.









Further reading…

Related video…

Bookmark the permalink.

257 Responses to What can we all do to help?

  1. Carol says:

    Rowland ignored!

    Reader, anything outside of what the Bible teaches I really do not wish to know, if you do please enjoy it!

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      For the Roman Catholics the Bible teaches that St. Peter was the first Pope and that his successor, Pope Francis, in Rome today, is Jesus’ sole earthly appointee.

      For the Hutterites the Bible teaches that we must live communally and forswear all private possessions.

      For the 19th century slave owners of the American South the Bible taught that slavery was fine by Jesus; it is after all upheld by Moses’ Law which Jesus, as a Jew, endorsed, and by his Apostle Paul as explained in his epistles.

      For the 5th Monarchy Men of 17th century England, the Bible taught that England was the only truly Christian country and that following the execution of the Little Horn of the Book of Daniel (aka King Charles I), Jesus would descend to sit on England’s throne, thus guiding the 5th Monarchy (also foreseen by Daniel), a regime that would never be destroyed.

      For William Miller the Bible taught that all true Christians would be raptured in the autumn of 1843; for Abbot Joachim of Fiore the Bible taught that in 1260, the Age of the Spirit would dawn, rendering all earthly churches irrelevant as Christ’s eternal direct rule would begin.

      That is just a handful of sincerely held beliefs gleaned from Bible teachings. As a child JW I have some idea what those Watchtower guys believe, and have believed.

      What I do not know, and neither does anyone else on here know, is what it is that the Bible teaches Carol, beyond the fact that it makes her feel absolutely right and superior.

  2. Carol says:

    Rowland ignored!

  3. Carol says:

    Excelsior, child a users should be hung and those that protect them should be given harsh jail sentences.

    The two witness rule is stupidity in itself, how can a person bear witness to child abuse?

    Organised shunning is evil, personally ignoring another is optional.

    Spouse abuse should carry much longer sentences.

    Given your self confessed immorality, no I would not consider you worthy of association!

  4. Reader says:


    “Reader, anything outside of what the Bible teaches I really do not wish to know, if you do please enjoy it!”

    Spoken like a true JW indoctrinate.

    Your smug, condescending, holier-than-thou attitude shows you to be intolerant.

    Your above statement shows why you have that attitude, chosen ignorance.

    How do you think that you can be of service to the cause of destroying the WT when you fail to acknowledge facts laid directly at your feet?

  5. Excelsior says:


    Hanging people? What a thing to say! I would prefer for paedophiles to have a very long jail sentence, myself. If they were released, then they have to be registered with authorities and kept away from children.

    I agree with your comments on domestic abuse, and those who cover up child abuse. I also agree with your opinion on the two witness rule.

    You see? We can agree on something. I knew that we would find common ground eventually. That is what Jesus tried to do. He tried to find what makes people similar not different.

    From my reading of the gospels, I am convinced that Jesus would have associated with me. He would have spoken with me, fed me, cured me of my sicknesses and then he would have let me make up my own mind about following him. Who knows? Maybe I would have been a follower of Christ.

    You claim that you are unimportant. Never has a truer word been said. You have yet to tell us (in between belittling us and stating that we are all sinners) what you intend to do to bring down the GB. What are your plans of attack? What exactly do you want changed and why?

    I think it has become patently clear that we are not going to agree on your religious beliefs. However, as mature adults, we can put aside our differences and find a way to combine our efforts to bring some justice to the WTBTS.

    I must admit, I don’t think that we would be best buddies forever if we ever met. However, we can work together to help the poor souls suffering under the cruel leash of the GB.

    Rowland Ignored. Carol, you have quoted a great many bible verses over the last few days. Can you find one that states that Jesus, your Saviour and King, ignored anyone?

    Did he ever refuse to answer sincere questions?

    I would very much like to move on, now.

    So, Carol, can we have a reply showing a bible verse where Jesus ignored someone, please?

    Can we have an answer detailing your plans for bringing the GB to justice? Can we have a picture of what you would like the JWs to be like after their removal?

    Answers to these questions will allow us to get to know you better and give us a chance to decide whether we want to associate with you.

    Please be assured that I do not doubt your sincerity. I am sure that you honesty believe what you write, and that your desire to depose the GB comes from a good motive.

    Peace be with you


  6. Excelsior says:


    May I say that you have handled friend Carol’s attacks in a very mature and decent way. Well done, mate!

    I hope that Carol will answer my questions, and we can find out what she would like to see post GB.

    I really enjoy reading your posts. They are interesting and thought provoking.

    Keep up the good work, and well done for toning down just a tad.

    Peace be with you


    • Rowland Nelken says:

      Thanks Excelsior.

      It is a relief to know that I am not alone in being utterly clueless as to what Carol has learned from the Bible.

      Whether the battery of comments from a range of quarters will persuade her that she owes us an explanation remains to be seen.

      I feel it unlikely, however, that she will feel inspired, like the Russian Khlysty movement, a Russian Orthodox breakaway sect to which Rasputin was affiliated, to interpret the Bible to mean that all men should sever one testicle, or like the English Diggers of the 17th century, that we should ignore all the Satanic rules about private ownership and enclosure of land and proceed to cultivate our ‘Common Treasury’ as common property, as exampled by the Garden of Eden.

      Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps Carol believes both these Biblical teachings. Maybe she will enlighten us.

  7. Carol says:

    Excelsior I have already advised you, that you are not a person, by your own lack of moral admissions, that I would wish to know, on any basis. See my post above in which the Bible offers guidelines as to your type of character!

  8. Carol says:

    Excelsior, I could not wait for your reply, however here is the reference you asked.

    Pity you don’t read the bible…..thoroughly!

    In Matthew 15:22-28, Jesus ignores and then denies a healing to a sincere Canaanite woman. It is not uncommon for a preacher to provide an excuse for why Jesus ignored the sincere cry of the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:22-23. However, neither an exuse nor an apology needs to be produced. The Lord knew exactly what he was doing, was sure that it was the right thing to do, and explains his simple reason in verse 26.

    “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” – Matthew 15:26

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      Cedars has declared his agnostocism, Carol. He therefore, presumably, does not view the Bible as mankind’s sole and ultimate guide. (Please correct me, Cedars, if I am mistaken).

      You, Carol, claim to be a supporter of his campaign to expose the abuses of the Watchtower Governing Body, yet you are still a practising Jehovah’s Witness.

      Despite questioning from all sides, Carol, you have refused to explain what, precisely, the Bible teaches you.

      The Bible teaches JWs to believe that all who do not follow, to the letter, every edict of the JW Governing Body, are due a deserved divine execution at an imminent Armageddon.

      Do you believe this, Carol? If you do, you presumably believe that you are exempt from the letter of the Gov. Bod diktats as you have declared they, the Gov. Bod., are Satanic.

      Do you, though, continue to believe in an imminent Armageddon, and thus a divine execution for all who do not follow your interpretation of the Bible? (whatever that is – you continually refuse to explain)

      If you do, then your bigging up of the Bible as the only route to salvation means that you believe that an agnostic, and thus a non Bible believer, like Cedars, whom you claim to support, is due, quite justifiably, to be executed by God at an imminent Armageddon. Yet you claim, it seems, to be in support of Cedars’ campaign.

      Unless and until , Carol, you explain just what bits, if any, of JW belief and practice you hold to; and you have already declared they are the only folks you feel comfortable associating with; we can only presume that you are in the strange position of supporting a man whom you believe to be deserving of an imminent death penalty.

      I have never received a reply to any question, Carol, and a lack of one will not surprise me. You need to know, though, why you come across as both malign and ridiculous.

  9. Carol says:

    This is what the Bible teaches, if you knew your Scriptures you would now this is so!
    I trust that your rather childish name calling is of some comfort to you in your obvious frustrations. However, you can find all the help you need as it’s all in the Holy Bible.

    I trust also that you find the peace and comfort that assists you to respect the views of others!

  10. Carol says:

    Rowland gladly ignored!

  11. So glad to be out says:

    Excelsior, Rowland, Like you, I believe Carol’s contribution is nil. Now with the vitriol and disturbed comments, I think she has overstepped the mark of common decency. Her comments about character are abusive.
    I can see that you have, as have others, shown more kindness than is probably necessary.

    The positive aspect about this is that people can compare and can contrast behaviour and can clearly decide for themselves, what is appropriate and acceptable. That is what freedom of thought is really about, deciding for yourself based upon a range of factors – not just religious indoctrination.

    I posted earlier a comment with the hope that people would indicate how they are “helping” in terms of the overall aim. I know many are actually making constructive efforts as Jeni has requested.

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      I am keeping a steady flow of info. to the BBC Radio 4 ‘Sunday’ programme. It features newsworthy religious topics and discussions every week.

      Hopefully, one day will see the horrors of JWdom making for a good story.

  12. So glad to be out says:

    Rowland, Thanks for that. If I notice a relevant article I tend to post links to Cedar’s Blog or JWfacts. Clearly the fact that the Guardian broke the UN story means they do not just want stories about people refusing blood transfusions. I think the cult mindset is beginning to be covered now and thats helpful.

  13. Reader says:


    “I trust that your rather childish name calling is of some comfort to you in your obvious frustrations. However, you can find all the help you need as it’s all in the Holy Bible.”

    My frustrations stem from watching you attempting to disseminate your brand of drivel here.

    You accuse others of not reading the bible thoroughly simply because they disagree with you. That makes you an unmitigated zealot.

    This may be name-calling in your books. For me, though, it is simply pointing out the obvious.

    Quoting scripture is no answer to those that question scripture’s validity. First that must be established.

    You have failed to even address this, let alone accomplish it.

  14. Carol says:

    Reader my brand of drivel as you put it, is Scripturally you don’t believe the Bible that that’s your decision…..not mine!

  15. Carol says:

    Reader you ask why the verses containing judgment from the bible should be believed.

    Well that’s an easy one! All Scriptures are approved by God!

    What is outside the Holy Bible is of no use, nor relevance to me, nor indeed any other seriously practicing Christian. I think you will find the truth of that statement, at least I trust that you may!

  16. Reader says:


    “Well that’s an easy one! All Scriptures are approved by God!”

    Well, now we’re getting somewhere.

    However, stating that does not make it true. Since using scripture to prove that scripture is inspired is circular reasoning, what other evidence do you have to support this claim?

  17. Carol White says:

    I don’t need any other evidence, I have the Holy Bible. There is nothing more convincing or reassuring than that.

    The Bible truths have given 1000s of years of comfort to Billions. I trust that you may find the same!

  18. Reader says:

    I’ll take that to mean that you have no evidence.

    With that I’ll kindly ask you to stop insisting that the bible has any more value than the Koran does.

  19. Carol says:

    Now Reader that’s a rather silly comment to make! Where did I ever insist that the bible has any more value than the Koran does.

    You guys love making it up as you fumble along.

    When are you all going to stop faffing around and get on with posting up some constructive suggestions for removing this high corrupt autocratic GB?

    You can have has many goes at me as you wish after the objective has been achieved, please save your energy and efforts until then!

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      Ok, Carol; you have made your point.

      You believe, with zero evidence that the Bible is the infallible word of God.

      You have been asked repeatedly to provide evidence to back up this extraordinary claim, but have simply, as Reader has reminded you, resorted to circular reasoning by quoting the Bible.

      You have thus made clear to all, not only your obscene bigotry and self-righteousness, but your appalling ignorance.

      Let us give you, and the Bible, however, the benefit of the doubt, and assume, for all that there is no evidence, that the Bible is indeed, the word of God. Billions have done just that throughout human history.

      The variety of beliefs, moral codes and lifestyles derived from the Bible, has been enormous.

      Most sects make their beliefs clear. You, Carol, have not.

      Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim the Bible tells us, among other things, not to celebrate Christmas, not to receive blood, that Armageddon will come any day now, that the JW bosses are God’s sole earthly appointees and that to survive Armageddon requires us to go door knocking armed with a bag of mags from New York.

      You, Carol, have told us nothing beyond the fact that you detest the JW Gov. Bod. and that you continue as an active JW. You have binned the central JW ‘TRUTH’, namely the divine appointment of the JW Gov. Bod., but we know not your attitude to all the other JW doctrine.

      You may have noticed that the Bible and its God issued truths tell other Christians different things. At least most of them will set down in writing an explanation of what the Bible tells them.

      You, Carol, have been asked repeatedly to explain what your doctrine is; what the Bible tells you. You have failed utterly. All we have had is foul and bigoted insults and declarations of your great superiority.

      If you go door knocking as a JW, or any other sort of Bible believer, how do you expect anyone to follow you if it is impossible to know your beliefs?

      You have a duty to explain.

  20. JB says:

    You know Carol, there are so many holy texts out there, our life time wouldn’t suffice to study them all … The Holy Bible, is only one of them. It’s only a matter of where you were born and how you were raised. If you were an indian, something totally different would be your unchangeable truth, maybe you’d have your family-god too. Many of those holy texts do claim being the Word of God, which, applying your logic, ARE the Word of God.

    Everyone, without a single exception, face the same challenge and we ALL have to question everything, every time. Anything I believe is truth for me “for the time being” – till sometime otherwise is proven.

    I had some interest and curiosity to other beliefs and philosophies, so I just scratched the surface, reading Koran, and material about Buddhism, Taoism, etc …

    I always wondered why on earth God would chose the Israelites instead of the Chinese … While the Chinese would soon develop solid moral values via Confucius, they were a great civilization in harmony with nature, their health and their social structure. Their values were largely superior to the Israelites, in my opinion. I’m quite convinced, with a little time, they’d be a much better candidate as “God’s people” than the Israelites, who, soon after leaving Egypt would start complain. Even reading the history of Exodus is enough to get me upset …

    I don’t have any harsh feelings about you but I must say I find it utterly sad, to say the least, the way you address towards Rowland and Excelsior, among others. Does the spiritual nourishment through the Bible yield such results ?

    If I was at a crossroads between atheism and believing in the Bible, after reading this thread, I’d become an atheist.

  21. JB says:

    Regarding Jeni’s great article : After “being helped” for a while, I’ve been thinking about contributing my 2 cents helping others as well.

    I don’t know yet, which way I could do this, but I’m sure I’ll figure this out. I’m truly amazed by the way the issues are raised here and on some other serious sites, by presenting tangible proof as to WHY these claims are to be taken seriously.

    As pretty much all of you very rightly stated, there are huge concerns around how the GB is exercicing this pressure, and this has been my conviction too. Probably what really disturbs me is the way their pretention of providing the truth while they pretty much deprive people from it, favoring their agenda. This much is unfortunately very clear.

    So after all this, I think I “owe” something back, and I’ll figure a way of doing it.

  22. Reader says:


    I’ve yet to see you quote or cite the Koran, yet the bible you pull out at every juncture.

    And yet you give no reason as to why the bible deserves special consideration as a book.

    I’ve seen the way you treat people here. There are many people here who are hurting because of the abuse of bible-believing people from the WT. What makes you think you have anything of value to contribute, and if you do, what about the costs due to your religious bigotry?

  23. Excelsior says:


    This is my last post to you. I shall not bother wasting any more of my finite time on this planet conversing with you.

    You quoted Matthew 15: 22 to 28.

    Jesus spoke with the woman. He conversed with her. He initially denied her a healing and then granted her plea for help.

    You have deliberately mis quoted the very words of the one whom you claim to follow. You have disgraced the name of Christ and you have nothing further to add to our cause.

    You are one of the most unpleasant, intolerant, self – righteous and bigoted people that I have ever encountered.

    I will not help you. I will not validate your activities.

    You are not a Christian.

    Truly I tell you, you are receiving your reward in full.

    Peace be with you

    Carol finally and with no regret ignored


    • Carol says:

      Excelsior thank you for your welcomed retort, you fool no one though as I had already told you frankly that I would never associate with a person with such self confessed debased morals as you proudly boast to possess and practice!

      Now perhaps you will just get on with the work at hand instead of continually persecuting those of Christian beliefs!

      • Rowland Nelken says:

        I was a child Jehovah’s Witness and their talks and mags were stuffed full of persecution for those of Christian beliefs that differed from those of the JW bosses.

        There was some satisfaction to be gained, though, in the mere verbal persecution, particularly, as JW ‘TRUTH’ would have it back then, all the members of those non JW Christian churches, all those Christian believers were about to receive the ultimate in persecution, i.e. annihilation by Jehovah at a 20th century Armageddon.

        Although an outsider now, I understand that the JW Church, that little corner of Christendom that loves to pour scorn on all the rest of the world’s Christians, continues to publish and preach verbal persecution of the billions of Christian believers who do not share its particular ever changing take on the Bible.

        As, Carol, you seem to object to anyone who doubts the truth of the Bible and the foundations of Christian belief, can we presume that as well as rejecting the authority of the Governing Body, a central pillar of JWdom, you also refuse to join in the regular JW trashing of other Christian sects and their members?

        So we have Carol, a self declared JW who only feels comfortable amongst other JWs, but who is utterly opposed to two of the central JW features. She rejects the Gov. Bod’s authority and she disapproves of questioning the truth of Christianity, never mind decrying it.

        Are there any aspects of JWdom of which Carol approves? Just what makes these JW people, whose attitudes Carol so despises, the only suitable company for Carol?

        No one on this thread has received, from Carol any answers to any questions at all, but Carol has successfully presented herself as a self righteous, bigoted and quite obscene ignoramus.

        I can only assume, Carol, that this has been your objective; in which case may I congratulate you on your stunning success!

  24. Carol says:

    Just hang on there Reader, you speak with many splits in your tongue.

    Go back over the posts here and you will clearly see that I was jumped on for my Beliefs in The Holy Scripture and my reliance upon Biblical Truths to support my position.

    At least be honest with yourself!

    You know nothing of my past life, of my years spent in the Middle and Far East studying religion and customs. In your ignorance you over enthusiastically assume too much!

    After much soul searching I have concluded that he bible deserves special consideration as a book as it’s the Word Of God. I am more than content with my beliefs……obviously you have problems with yours, so why not leave it at that, or continue your search for inner peace!

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      We have all noticed, Carol, that you refuse to explain what the message of the Bible is to you.

      Even if we grant that it is the infallible word of God, for which there is no evidence at all, its message is different to different groups, individuals and sects.

      At least with most sects, individuals and groups which, like you Carol, believe the Bible to be God’s infallible word, we can have some idea what the Truth of the Bible, and hence God’s word to mankind means to them.

      With you, Carol, we have almost no idea, beyond the fact that it makes you feel obscenely and unjustifiably superior.

      Christopher Columbus believed that Isaiah’s prophecies about the word of the Lord being taken to the distant Isles referred to Christopher Columbus taking Spanish Catholicism to the West Indies. Does the Word of God mean this to you, Carol?

      Many groups, Millerites, Plymouth Brethren, Harold Camping and Russell the JW founder at one time, believed that the righteous would be raptured to Heaven while the wicked below are destroyed. Do you believe that, Carol?

      Then there is the business of which Bible bits are symbolic and which literal. Are the 6 days of Creation literal days? Is Jonah and the Whale a myth with a moral or authentic history? Is the 7 headed Beast of Revelation with its 10 horns and Scarlet Woman on top symbolic of something or other or are we due to see a real creature like this, running about somewhere, sometime soon?

      Ditto the Beast with 666 on its forehead and all those trumpeting angels whizzing about creating storms, volcanoes and the rest; should we expect them in our skies; if so, when? Or are they symbolic of something; if so, what?

      That’s afew Revelation bits. What about the Beasts of Daniel and those times, days and other number puzzles? There have been no end of conflicting interpretations, not least from the JWs. What are Carol’s thoughts?

      For the JWs, all who do not share, and spout on the doorstep, the current thoughts, whatever they may be at the time, of the JW bosses, are due to be zapped at an imminent Armageddon. Have Carol’s Biblical studies revealed to her that all who do not share Carol’s Bible interpretations are due to be executed at Judgement Day, Armageddon, or not at all?

      Is there a ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’? It would appear that Carol would not grant this title to the JW Gov. Bod., as she has already dismissed those guys as Satanic. Does she have anyone else in mind. If so, who?

      Your theology, Carol, such as it is, has so far merely consisted in hurling insults and disgusting declarations about your own superiority. Even the grubbiest bits of Christendom, like the JWs, usually let us know what their beliefs are.

      You, Carol, have failed utterly. If it was your intention, however, to alienate as many people as possible on Cedar’s blog and to leave an impression of hideous smugness, then you have succeeded admirably.

      My congratulations!

  25. So glad to be out says:

    LOL – Ignorant, bigoted, rude, arrogant, haughty, unkind, thoughtless, disrespectful, judgemental, with a persecution complex, sounds like a christian of the JW sort. Off loading responsibility and telling others what they should do. Ditto. No examples given of what they are doing other than condemning, preaching and being abusive.
    So glad to be out!

    There is a new report out on global warming. http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/official-prophecy-of-doom-global-warming-will-cause-widespread-conflict-displace-millions-of-people-and-devastate-the-global-economy-9198171.html I am posting some comments on some threads on various newspapers as this kind of dooms day news item brings out the “brothers and sisters”. The GB writing team will pick up this kind of thing and state the problem and not give the full picture or consider the solution oriented work that is taking place.

  26. JB says:

    Carol, thank you. Honestly, although I listen to the arguments with interest, I’m not inclined to be an atheist. Still, I must say that some challenging ideas advanced by atheists and agnostics were of interest to me and it even helped me looking at things differently, without necessarily changing the main lines of my thinking.

    I have the belief of God and I also see a great value in the Bible as a reference to look at.

    But, if one day I happen to see proofs for the non existence of God and a cold grave as the only thing that is awaiting us, and this is the Truth, I woud accept it. I’m not afraid to challenge what I believe as the Truth constantly, whatever is the reality, will come out.

    This is why my I have my reaction to your statements, despite the fact that partially I’m in agreement with you. If you did such deep research and came out of this so convinced, all I wish for myself is to reach the same maturity for being able to have the same solid convictions in whatever reveals as the Truth to me. However at the same time, one would expect someone writing with kindness, who “turns the other cheek”, who even “loves his/her virtual ‘ennemies'” …

    This really makes me puzzled. I don’t mean to be rude to you but I must say that you have been really harsh addressing to some people, although you’re the one following the conduct of love given by Jesus. This is why I made this statement saying that, how come such confidence in the Bible you put could lead to such bitterness ?

    • Duds says:

      Hi JB
      I agree with you,
      you made many fine comments. Ive been going back over, how all this controversy, got started. Re-reading all the post in an endeavor to find a solution.
      There seems to be offense coming from both sides. Mostly, due to each, not understanding the other.

      Many, are frustrated at Corals attempts to adequately answer their questions and issues. Coral on the other hand feels she is answering well, according to her view, and hence, an attack against the person rather the issue.

      If your reading Coral let me take you back to the post by
      “The issue is that it is faith is misplaced. Start by actually researching about the flood. There is no way that the flood described in the bible happened. (1)There are civilizations that are older than when it was supposed to have happened. Also, (2) there are trees that are dead, laying where they died, that are older than the flood, with a continuous record of life through that period.”

      2 issue he raised here (I numbered them above) did you try to explain these objectively?

      This is your reply

      “Thank you for you kind reply. However, may I suggest, that etiquette prevails, therefore having made my position clear, it would be up to you, with respect, to categorically disprove the happening of the great flood!”

      Do you feel you adequately answered his issues or did you take offense at his disbelief and attack his etiquette.

      I’m sure he would have appreciated a genuine attempt by you, to answer.
      Of course, he couldn’t categorically explain, there simply not room for that by posting. You could, at the least challenged him, as to where he got his information, before answering. However, by the same token, Reader could have shown from what source he got his material.I too would have liked it.
      To me it is this lack of perception that has led to both sides discrediting each other.
      Have peace Duds

      • JB says:

        Duds, this is so true. In addition to your points, another detail I notice is this :

        Sometimes there may be a comment expressed in quite definite terms. For instance, if someone would say “the Bible is nonsense” (or something that might distinctly hint this), of course, this person expresses his/her own opinion.

        I think sometimes it doesn’t go well, and probably for a good reason. Indeed, if someone has deep beliefs anchored in the Bible, the first reaction would be “how dare you ….” ? It’s something highly valued by some and a very direct comment generates reaction. If we compare this to a national flag, we wouldn’t make any gesture or utter insults to a national flag, mainly because it may have a great significance to the nationals of that country and they could react quite strongly against such an offense.

        Let’s consider about a cartoon made in Denmark about Mohamed which raised quite some anger, it was question about finding and killing the guys who made a sarcastic film about Islam and back in time Salman Rushdie was shown as target for writing Satanic Verses … It looks like when it goes about various subjects the liberties are defined differently and people are quickly reminded of “respect” 🙂

        Why would it be different here ?

        Another thought that can come to mind is, because someone makes such a comments he/she would automatically think that anyone who believes is an idiot.

        I am quite certain it’s not the idea anyone would try to pass across. However, the written communication is so hard at times, which requires extra caution.

        On the other hand, as you said Duds, a fact based, satisfactory discussion could lead to much brighter results.

  27. JB says:

    Actually I should say “great value in some particular sections of the Bible” …

    One thing I doubt is, if the Bible we hold in hands, in its entirely is God’s Word or not … I have HUGE doubts about it.

  28. JB says:

    OK, one last thing Carol,

    Let’s consider the “two witness” rule. And I think there is something similar in science, that something (specially historical) is considered a fact if X or more “independent” sources confirm it.

    The logic says it, the Bible says it.

    So, as for the trustworthiness of the Bible, why would this rule not apply ? This is the reason why you NEED non-Biblical data to confirm the Bible’s trustworthiness. Otherwise, there are as many truths out there as there are human beings. Such rules, confirmed by the Bible, follow this particular logic and there is no reason why we shouldn’t apply to the Bible. It’s what Bible says.

  29. Excelsior says:

    Rowland not ignored,

    Hear hear! Well said!

    Peace be with you


  30. Excelsior says:


    I challenge anyone to call or visit a Geology department of any reputable University and ask them if there was a worldwide flood in 2370 BCE. Ask them if there is any evidence to back this assertion. Go visit the Biology department, and ask them if there are any bottlenecks in the DNA of all animals, as there would be if only 2 or 7 animals are the ancestors of every living animal today.

    People have a choice as to what they believe. All I ask is that we respect difference.

    Carol has no respect for anyone who doesn’t believe what she believes. She refuses to tell us what she believes!

    She has shunned Rowland, judged me as a bad association, and deliberately mis-quoted scripture.

    Really, what do we have to share now? How can we work together?

    This site is supposed to be non denominational, and avoid proselytising. I only express my atheism when it is appropriate to the discussion, and I do not expect others to follow my choices.

    Carol only wants to work with people who think exactly like her. We share a desire to bring the GB to justice. We share an abhorrence for child abuse and domestic violence, and yet she doesn’t want to associate with me at all. How can we work together?

    Peace be with you


    • Duds says:

      Hi Excelsior
      Glad to hear from you!
      On the flood I’m still pondering.
      I see many things that support it, and at the same time see many things that don’t.

      My son and I have been looking into the Mammoths in Siberia. Millions of dollars a year industry, gathering the tusks, some up to 5 meter long. There is literally tonnes of the stuff along the beaches and sticking out of mud piles.

      There is even talk of cloning with elephants, been frozen for years, but blood and flesh is still fresh.
      If there was an earth wide flood how could this happen considering the flood lasted a at least half a year. The flesh floating about in the water, would have become putrid after that time. And how come the great majority of all end up in this one area, fully preserved, the moving water would have pulverized them on trees and other obstacles below the surface.
      Don’t let the derogatorily remarks get you down, I think its best we move on to better things, rather than try to convince Coral against her will. Let her do her secret thing it might prove good in the end.
      Have peace

  31. Duds says:

    Hi Carol
    You quoted a scripture to Excelsior! Matt 15 :21-28 about an Phoenican woman who Jesus refused to answer.

    That got my curiosity enlighten! Really, Jesus refusing to answer some ones’ cry for help, no it can’t be, I thought, I had to look it up. And sure enough it seem to be saying that.

    So I did some research, some say, Jesus was testing her faith, His comments, of taking bread of children and giving it to little dogs suggests that.

    However, on reading the context, there seems to be a better understanding why Jesus didn’t answer at that precise time. Verse 22 say she came out and cried aloud, say have ‘have mercy on me”

    The fact she cried aloud, suggest she was a fair way off to have any meaningful conversation, without raising ones voice. Further, the next verse indicate that also, because the disciple asked Jesus to send her away, because she keeps crying out after them.

    Then Jesus highlights His mission to the disciples, and then verse 25 says ‘when the woman came she began to do obeisance to him.

    Now, a conversation one on one can take place. Jesus test her faith and her daughter is heal. I don’t think this is a clear cut case of simply ignoring ones plea for help.

    A better scripture to quote, may have been John 19:9

    Have peace

  32. So glad to be out says:

    It looks like considered discussion has returned. I for one am pleased. My last comment may seem over the top. It was in response to some comments from Carol, that have obviously now been deleted. I apologise if my comments seem out of place. When people are called immoral, or judged for no reason other than they do not hold the same beliefs as the accuser, it reminds me of the cult mindset.

    It feels good to move on from this unnecessary dialogue.

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      I think we can all conclude that Carol is completely out of synch with the aims of this blog. Granted she wants to bin the Gov. Bod. and the 2 witness rule, but only, it seems, to replace it with some foul Bible based theology of her own.

      At least with the foul, Bible based theology and methods of the Jehovah’s Witnesses we know what we are dealing with. We can this devise strategies whereby to expose and, hopefully destroy it.

      With Carol’s ‘ideal’ we have simply a fog of poison, of a mysterious and unknown composition. The search for a cure, or antidote could not, therefore, even begin.

      We must leave her behind the doors of her home, basking in the delusion that she is no part of the world which sustains her and on which she is utterly dependent.

  33. Excelsior says:


    John 19:11

    Jesus answers Pilate. There is no scripture that shows Jesus refusing to converse with anyone who came to him with an honest desire to understand.

    That is why poor old “Rowland ignored” was wronged by Carol. She did not follow the example of Jesus.

    I declare a truce! I will not peddle my atheism on this site if those of us who are Christians will do the same.

    We have so much that unites us.

    Peace be with you


    • Duds says:

      Hi Excelsior
      Yes I agree,
      Jesus also ate and dined with sinners and tax collector but chastised those who should have known better their religious leaders.
      Please don’t take this as peddling my belief. Though I think we should, as reasoning persons be at times, allowed to express our particular view, subject to honest constructive criticism. That, without being ridiculed or belittled as a person.
      Cheers Duds

  34. Dblaron42 says:

    Carol, Coral, it doesn’t matter she won’t listen…. religion causes many good people to do vile things… shunning among on the most vile.

    But what is more plausible? early unlettered and ordinary men were chosen by “god” or early ignorant man create many “gods” to explain the wonders of science and the natural world around them…

  35. Kaitlyn says:

    Oh my God…You almost described my exact situation. I had to make the choice to leave just before I turned 18. My father and brothers no longer speak to me, and I live 3 hours from home since I moved for school. I would like to help spread TTATT and all the good info also on here, but I’m worried about coming off as bitter and just wanting to cause problems. I want people to realize I actually care and want to help, not antagonize anyone. Anyway, I’m sure I’m not the only one who understands what you’ve been through but it definitely is a long road towards healing. Thanks for sharing.

    • Jeni says:

      Thanks for the comment Kaitlyn. I completely understand where you are coming from when you mention coming off as bitter. Honestly though, I think to a certain degree we all deserve to feel a little bitter. We’ve lost family and are being treated like we are already dead. I fully believe there is a way to channel that bitterness for the good of others. If it’s not something you feel you are able to put together yourself, there are plenty of helpful videos, articles, and the like that can be shared. I wish you great success on your journey away from the WT.

  36. chatpal says:

    Im not sure where I could post this, but can someone tell me if there is any honest site that has a way to find x jws in my area? [In Pa in the US] I would love to meet some new people or find ones i may have known in the past that left, that would be awesome, [Ive gone to 7 different congregations in the pittsburgh areas] but Im fearful of getting mixed up with the wrong people.or being found out. I dont know anyone outside jws. i dont talk to anyone anyway,and im sort of a ‘newbie’.
    I wont be missed, that for sure.
    from many posters I see horror stories, about leaving, but still, even if Im being nieve, i hope i can fall away quietly, my husband did, he got basically stumbled out. so he wont stand for any elders showing up and harassing me.
    but my mother is a problem. she likes to argue. being in thier 70s my parents depend on me sometimes, all my mom talks about it jw stuff she doent know anything else, she lives a isolated life ,service, meetings, lonely childhood i had. accept I being the ‘rebel’ always read things she thought was pointless. she could never understand why I liked reading buisness, scientific articles, politics , world events. i basically have no one to talk to about anything interesting! I yearn for conversation.
    Ive been married for 35 yrs to a man with an alchohol addiction, two years ago, he left me for another woman, [long enough to see how good of a wife i am] then when that did not work out, he asked for forgiveness and made me a bunch of promises. I went back with him because i had no where to go I had no job would have lost my health insurence too. yet even after i forgave him [for the umteenth time] and went back, and I told him if he got pulled over for drinking Id leave. I have to keep my word and not cower out of fear of being alone. and so now i want to live the life Ive lost being a slave to the org and stuck in a dull loveless life. how do I do that? any ideas?
    some sites ive been to sort of make me nervose, how can i tell the ones that are not just out there to bash the wt out of boredom, and prey on xjws to exploit our situation?

  37. Excelsior says:

    Chat pal,

    I don’t know of any sites that can help you, I’m afraid.

    Your next steps depend on your beliefs. If you are still a Christian or are religious, try to find a MODERATE church group to hang out with.

    If you haven’t kept a religious belief, then find something that you like doing and go to a club that caters for that hobby.

    I’m afraid that it’s not just ex Witnesses that find it hard to make friends and transform their lives.

    I would suggest sending an email to Cedars. There are contact details at the top of the page. He should be able to get you in touch with some support groups in your area.

    You can also try JJ on JW Struggle. He’s a fellow Yank and he has knowledge of a lot of dear people like yourself who need a little support.

    I hope this helps, buddy.

    Peace be with you


  38. Peter Bartley says:

    This demented organization has my wife convinced that she should never talk to our daughter again. And that any intimacies with persons outside the organization, especially those that used to be members, are an act of unfaithfulness against God. This of course includes her husband. Their corruption is evident to all who care to look. Unfortunately their members are so indoctrinated they simply will not look.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *


Comment posting guidelines:

Kindly observe the following requirements before posting any comments to our articles or pages:

  • ABUSIVE COMMENTS - Do not post comments that include swear words or may be considered abusive, lewd, blasphemous, obscene or threatening
  • ILLEGAL COMMENTS - Do not post comments that condone or propose illegal activity, or that breach copyright law
  • OFF-TOPIC COMMENTS - Do not post comments that are off-topic and bear no relation to the page or article
  • RELIGIOUS NEUTRALITY - Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature or may be construed as imposing one person's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) over those of another
  • LANGUAGE - Visitors from all countries and language groups are welcome. You may post comments in languages other than English, but we would appreciate if you could make any such comments brief. We would also be grateful if you could run any such comments through Google Translate and convert these to English, but this is not an absolute requirement.
  • LINKS - You may post links to third party websites, so long as (1) you limit these to 2 links per comment, and (2) the content on these links doesn't contravene ANY of the first four points. Specifically, you may not post URLs to websites that are evangelical in nature. Our links page has an extensive list of such sites for any who are curious about Christian beliefs in the context of Jehovah's Witnesses.

JWSurvey.org thanks all visitors in advance for respectfully observing these guidelines. Any who persistently fail to do so, despite warnings, may find themselves blocked from making further comments at the discretion of the site moderators, whose decision will be final and not open for debate.