The Friday Column: “And a new Earth.”

carrot-dangle-donkeyEvery once in a while, I’m asked why I bother keeping up with current events in the world of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

My answer will usually depend on several factors, including, but not limited to: caffeine concentration in my bloodstream, looming University assignments and general satisfaction with this great probability engine that is life.

If conditions are unfavourable, I will likely mumble incoherently and return to scribbling on the wall with my trusty Crayola. (I find that there is a certain understated madness in the crayon that’s impossible to convey with any other marker. I recommend red for added effect.)

If conditions are favourable, however, my answer would be that keeping an eye on the activities of Watchtower and the Jehovah’s Witnesses is something of a civic duty; their troublesome beliefs continue to cause problems for past and current members alike. From the Governing Body’s stance on homosexuality and feminism to the endless barrage of uncomfortable questions posed by the Australian Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse, there is no shortage of people with a righteous axe to grind against Watchtower.

But perhaps the most insidious effect of Watchtower’s continued presence is the theological “eternal carrot” of the Paradise, tantalisingly dangled just out of reach of the Witness rank-and-file. As we shall see, Watchtower’s construction of the New System does nothing more than stunt the philosophical growth of the average Witness. How can this be so?

Paradise regained

When comparing the differences between the JW concept of afterlife with that of a more mainstream Christian religion, the contrasts appear stark.

Imagine for a moment that you are, say, a Catholic. You, dear Catholic, are given a certain amount of time on Earth to spend in righteous pursuits. Such as donating to homeless shelters, playing the harp and knitting bible verses into ugly woollen sweaters. (Or whatever it is that righteous people actually do. I wouldn’t know.) As an angel, having transcended the physical and gained a greater understanding of the inner workings of the universe, you play the harp some more and play an active role in your local “Holy Rollers” Angelic Bowling Team. Notice now that your afterlife in Heaven is merely a continuation of your existence on Earth.

And what if you are a Jehovah’s Witness instead?

After the eventual arrival of Armageddon (any day now) you are reunited with your loved ones on the Earth, rather than in Heaven. The infinite amount of free time now available to you can be utilised in various ways, including: spending time with friends, exploring the Earth, pursuing hobbies, raising a family, owning a panda as a pet. Etcetera

One conspicuous difference between these two philosophies is that the “rewards” for faithfulness as a Jehovah’s Witness are mostly activities that an ordinary human could work towards right now (with the exception of eternal life, for example). It’s true! You can go out today and buy some seeds to plant a garden! Invite your friends to the cinema to see the new Star Wars! You could become a zoologist or start a family of your own! Or both!

To synopsise: whereas a more mainstream afterlife is a continuation for life on Earth, the Witness afterlife is a replacement for life on Earth. While this glosses over the Witness doctrine regarding the 144,000 humans who are resurrected to heavenly status and rule with Jesus. However, if we confine our discussion to Witnesses with an earthly outlook, the point is equally valid.

Real life? Or just a fantasy?

Given that most activities available in Paradise are essentially within reach, why is it that the average Jehovah’s Witness doesn’t drop everything and start their new life a few years early? I can think of two reasons supported by Witness doctrine.

One. As an upright Witness, it is your responsibility to spend this time preaching the word of God in whatever capacity you can. You are taught that this work is important because it is vital to saving the lives of others and is “never to be repeated” (w10 2/15 p. 9). Being a faithful proselytiser is also vital to progressing beyond Armageddon in the first place.

Two. Life as it exists now is only a pale imitation of life after Jehovah’s divine judgement of the wicked at Armageddon. Wicked people have overwhelmed the Earth! “Critical times hard to deal with” are here! (2 Tim 3:1)

We can see further examples of this in the Witness literature: “Many schools now have student counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school, to pursue a career with a future in this system of things. Do not be influenced by them. Do not let them “brainwash” you with the Devil’s propaganda to get ahead, to make something of yourself in this world. This world has very little time left! Any “future” this world offers is no future! Wisely, then, let God’s Word influence you in selecting a course that will result in your protection and blessing. Make pioneer service, the full-time ministry, with the possibility of Bethel or missionary service your goal.” Watchtower 1969 Mar 15 p.171

“This world has very little time left!” Ironically strong words given that they are now nearly forty-seven years old. But this also gives a key insight into another reason why Witnesses might postpone their ambitions.

“That’ll be 30 seconds please.”

Holding-back-hands-of-timeIn the real world, actions carry with them a temporal cost.

I feel no need to give this a citation because it seems like the sort of statement that almost nobody would take issue with. Want to learn to play the trombone? Sure! Let’s say that it takes fifty hours of practice to gain the level of proficiency you want. Assuming you live eighty years, that’s approximately 0.007% of your life which you can no longer use for any other purpose.

While it’s an overly-simplistic metaphor, the percentage of your life that you put towards a certain end can be thought of as a cost or investment in that activity. Some activities are compulsory- if you sleep eight hours a day, this will be about 33.3% of your life. Work and school have percentages of their own, as evidenced by our quote from the previous section.

In this way, every action taken in life is an investment (some large and others small) towards the grand 100% that is your life. And not all of these investments will be worthwhile, either. There are more than a few percentage points that I’d like to have back.

Of course, when you consider the prospect of Paradise, the whole point becomes moot. If it should happen that you get bored with the trombone then you will have wasted a mere fifty hours out of infinitely many hours. In a very real sense, this is 0%. And the thought of being able to do (practically) anything with no consequences for any mistake is tempting.

Given all of this, it seems unsurprising that many Witnesses seem to live in a state of suspended animation, watching and waiting for a bright, shiny world with no rough edges.

“Stagnant Waters.”

frozen-in-time-2The obvious problem with postponing one’s ambitions for the future is that the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not have the best track record when it comes to predicting the future.

Essentially, what Jehovah’s Witnesses are doing is outsourcing their hopes and dreams to a future that, in all probability, will never arrive. The result is a bizarre state of moratorium- the average Witness seems to have little interest in learning, growing or experiencing anything in this world deeply.

Some that I know have been stuck in the cycle for years. They watch the same DVD’s and TV shows over and over again, avoiding anything new. Some witnesses in moratorium will spend an inordinate part of their time imagining what they will say and do in the New System. Personally, I know more than a few who have figured out where they will live and how they will decorate. This is anecdotal evidence, of course. But I have seen the sentiments reflected in too many Witnesses to ignore the trend.

A witness in moratorium might view further education as a chore rather than an enlightenment. If they travel, they stick to the well-traversed paths and spend far too much time in the hotel room. The conversation is shallow and uncontroversial. Above all, there is no ambition to be found anywhere. Some use the Paradise hope as a “Get out of Sorrow Free” card- why deal with the tough realities of illness and death when they are just transient to you? And through it all they wait for their real life to begin. The rut slowly becomes a trench.

What’s to be done?

dawnThat is the big question. Almost certainly far too big given that philosophers have struggled with the question of the ideal way to live life since antiquity.

There is the possibility that some Witnesses might be so invested in the Paradise that they will never let go. For everyone else–myself included-the solution seems to simply be coming to terms with mortality in one way or another. Though it’s so easy to say and so very hard to do, actively seeking out new experiences is one of the best ways to make life worth living. Self-discovery, engaging with the world, formulating and achieving goals- these are the ingredients for a Paradise right here and now.

I think Wirrow put it best in his stream-of-consciousness entitled “and a new earth”:

deep inside you there is a roaring fire
that is not cooled by comfort or tamed by fear
a fire that burns in all things
a fire that can drag your fellow beings out of stagnant waters
and re-imagine your world with no leader or station

everything in this world is intoxicating
everything is on fire all the time
and you are bound only by the limits of your imagination- everything else will follow
the world will follow
as above, so below
a new heaven and a new earth

Maybe we just need to make a new Earth for ourselves.

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– P B

 

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165 Responses to The Friday Column: “And a new Earth.”

  1. Claudia says:

    After a life of running back the Watchotwer’s carrot, thanks to my ‘elder’ of husband, and situations in the congregation who showed us their unwillingness to stand to what they preach, and to adhere to Bible’s principles, we left, after almost 50 years of dedication to the WT.
    I was 58, my husband 60! Fortunately, also our 3 adult children, left, with their mates. We were 7 to leave, a family who was an example of faith. A scandal, a shock, for many JW in the area we were well known.

    Now after almost 10 years of FREE thinking, I can only think to the waste of our lifes in that organisation. Even, if the paradise would have come, we would have anyway lost experiences that will never come back… for example, we could’nt enjoy completely of our children’s infancy, enjoy their progress, because, in our lives WT’s interest would come before: preaching, meetings, and all other activities, you well know.
    Our sundays, the sundays of an entire life, passed closed in a kingdom hall, well after the meeting because an elder has to take care of all others first.. with their stupid problems (where do you think I could leave my pet when I go on vacation?) or more serious problem which weren’t ours.
    I mean, EVERY sunday and evenings, during 40 LONG YEARS, lost behind the WT’s carrot instead of dedicate that time to our children.
    Not to talk about superior instructions for our children, as parents we never insist and force them to attend college,… we believed in a new syste. Now, we can only feel guilty and sad.

    They are grown anyway, and we are very close to them today a never before, but the time and the attention parents should allow to their children has been stolen by the Watchower, time and opportunities which will never be paid back to us, even if a paradise would have been established.
    I consider now the Watchower: THIEVES OF TIME, THIEVES OF ENERGIES, THIEVES OF LIVES!
    We over-enjoy now our freedom, our family, our grand-sons, OUR TIME. OUR LIFE!

    Claudia

    • Idontknowhatodo says:

      Thank you Claudia…its never too late to be liberated…you make me see that…you deseve to carry on your life with your family…’The best revenge is a life well lived’…. that is what you have done…that is what I am going to do.

  2. Twmack says:

    @dee 2. @Songbird.
    Good comments. Reminded me of a married S, Pioneer
    couple in our cong, They wanted a family but put it off
    until the new world, sadly they died childless.

    Coming up to 1975 they were getting close to to the age
    of being past child bearing. The husband came up with
    the theory, that “As we didn’t know exactly when Eve was
    created, Armageddon could maybe come in 1974”
    ( I’m not sure but I think there was something in WT to
    that effect.)

    Some years later, with no sign of the new system in sight,
    he said to me “It looks like I’ll have to wait for a resurrection ”
    Poor deluded people, exploited, robbed of a normal life.

    On a side note, when they reached retiring age they became
    eligible for a state pension though never having contributed
    to the system. They were much better off then under the
    care of “Satan’s arrangement” than they ever were under
    JHVHs caring organisation.

  3. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:
    Regarding humans living on other planets – PT 1:

    Further to SIRIUS’ comment, scientists are yet to discover other earth-like, habitable planets. Admittedly, this is limited by the current technology in use and so NASA has been trying to develop more powerful telescopes:
    https://ca.yahoo.com/news/nasa-massive-space-telescope-could-094502665.html

    Scientists believe that there may be other planets which are habitable. The closest is the Alpha Centauri star system, which is about 4 light years away from Earth. NASA has been making advances in propulsion technologies that will speed up space travel to make visits to faraway galaxies/planets possible:
    http://www.outerplaces.com/science/item/11264-nasa-on-interstellar-travel-there-is-no-known-reason-why-we-cannot-do-this

  4. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:
    Regarding humans living on other planets – PT 2:

    Even if scientists were to discover other earth-like, habitable planets, based on earth’s set up, these planets would also need to be served by a sun which is necessary in order for life to be sustained. The problem is that the sun, which is a star, does not have an infinite life. All stars die at some point, they cannot go on burning forever as they have a finite source of hydrogen fuel which will eventually be exhausted as the hydrogen is consumed by the nuclear fusion process that converts it into helium and light energy – the light energy is needed to sustain life on earth or the other planets:

    http://www.space.com/11425-photos-supernovas-star-explosions.html

    https://shar.es/1Cb6lm

    So at some point there will be no sun to sustain life on these planets and on the earth. As the sun serving these planets and the earth goes through its death throes it will either consume the earth/other habitable planets or simply render life on earth/other habitable planets impossible. So man would have to keep moving from planet to planet.

    If God wants humans to inhabit other planets forever so as to prevent the earth from being over-populated, then God will have to go against his immutable natural laws and prevent the sun (star) that serves the earth from dying as well as the sun (star) that would serve those other planets from dying.

  5. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:
    Regarding the marital status and reproductive powers of persons resurrected on earth:

    According to Jesus’ words at Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):

    Jesus replied, “The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. (emphasis mine)

    Jesus was speaking about the resurrection in THE AGE TO COME in response to a question from the Sadducees in the previous verses.

    According to WT theology:
    – the earthly resurrection takes place in THE AGE TO COME
    – the WT’s heavenly resurrection, however, occurs in THIS (PRESENT) AGE having commenced in 1918:

    ****Revelation, Its Grand Climax At Hand! pg. 103****

    “All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914 and his riding forth to start his kingly conquest by cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons.”

    Persons resurrected in the AGE TO COME are like the angels and so
    – will neither marry nor be given in marriage
    – can no longer die

    The only way that Luke 20:34-36 could apply to the WT’s heavenly resurrection, is if the WT were to change its doctrine to state that its heavenly resurrection occurs in THE AGE TO COME and not in THIS AGE when it commenced in 1918.

    • dee2 says:

      But then, now you would have both the heavenly and earthly resurrections taking place during the same time period (i.e. THE AGE TO COME) so how will the WT be able to justify applying Luke 20:34-36 to the heavenly resurrection only, since both heavenly and earthly resurrections would now be taking place in THE AGE TO COME and the scripture makes no distinction between a heavenly and an earthly resurrection?

      • JBob says:

        @dee2 – also note that I have heard some JW’s having lost a married mate, sigh they will be glad for the “age to come” when they will be reunited with their love, but “those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels” seems to state otherwise, no?

        Plus, if we use the Watchtower logic that everytime there is a “like something” it means it is exactly that–“like the voice of an archangel” means “it’s an archangel” so resurrected ones = “angels”. Yes?

  6. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:
    Regarding man being created immortal to live forever on a Paradise Earth:

    As I have already stated in this post, according to the Bible account of Adam & Eve, man was never created immortal as the WT claims. If they were created immortal then why would there be a need for a Tree of Life? What purpose would the Tree of Life serve if Adam and Eve were created immortal?

    Further, as I stated in a previous post, the account of Adam & Eve is based on mythology, it cannot be used to prove that God made man immortal to live forever on a Paradise Earth.

  7. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:
    About that Adam & Eve story – PT 1:

    1. Pity Adam & Eve didn’t eat from the tree of life first, since it wasn’t banned.

    2. According to Genesis 3:22 it was the act of eating from the tree of life that would make Adam & Eve immortal which is why god had to ban them from the garden of Eden so that they could not eat from the tree of life and live after they had sinned. So whether or not they ate from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and bad they needed to eat from the tree of life in order to become immortal.
    In order for Adam and Eve to have lived eternally, they would have had to eat from the Tree of Life; their own perfect bodies could not sustain living forever.

    Whether or not they ate from the forbidden tree they were going to die anyway as they were never originally made immortal.
    They still could have lived forever if only they had eaten from the tree of life. So, it was not eating from the forbidden tree that killed them – it was not eating from the tree of life that killed them.

    So they didn’t lose immortal life when they ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and bad because they were not immortal to begin with. So the question is – what was Jesus Christ’s sacrifice replacing since Adam & Eve were not immortal to begin with; they weren’t made immortal so they didn’t lose immortality when they sinned.

    3. According to WT theology, TWO perfect lives were lost, yet there was only ONE ransom sacrifice.

    4. According to Gen 3:22, it was the tree of life that would make Adam & Eve immortal not Jesus’ sacrifice. Despite Jesus’ sacrifice, in the book of Revelation, when all is said and done perfect mankind will still need to eat of the tree of life, according to WT theology:
    Revelation 2:7
    “To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God”.

    Revelation 22: 2, 14:
    “In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations”.

    “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

    5. Adam & Eve were supposed to have died in the day they ate the forbidden fruit, however that didn’t happen so god lied – Adam lived for 930 years and had children, one of his sons was born when Adam was 800 years old, so assumedly, Eve was still around up to that time (Genesis 5:3-5). According to the WT “day” has several meanings:
    – 1 day
    – 77.14 days
    – 360 days
    – 1 year
    – 1,000 years
    – 7,000 years
    http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/beliefs/time/

    Would Adam & Eve have known the latter meanings which were given centuries later?

    6. The snake’s words were shown to be reliable and true. It is God who is shown to be a deceiver. Adam and Eve did not die; rather, they benefited from eating the fruit: they obtained a moral sense.

    The serpent was accurate and truthful throughout Genesis chapter 3. God’s words in Genesis 3:22 are essentially identical to the serpent’s prediction in Genesis 3:5 – Adam and Eve had developed a moral sense, previously possessed only by the Gods.

    7. According to Genesis 3:17 – 19, only Adam and Eve were cursed. God did not mention the extension of the curse to Adam and Eve’s children and later descendants – the WT however, teaches otherwise.

    8. In the Bible we are told that children do not die for the sins of their parents:
    Ezekiel 18:20:

    “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him”.

    Yet according to the WT, god has condemned not only Adam & Eve to death, but their children as well.

    9. According to the WT, Adam’s & Eve’s sin passed on diseases, sickness and death to their descendants. One wonders – why didn’t god allow Adam & Eve to die in the very day they ate the forbidden fruit before they had a chance to have children and pass on their bad DNA?

    According to WT theology, at the end of Christ’s 1000 year reign, people will be perfect just like Adam & Eve but some will disobey when tested and will consequently be destroyed.

    Also according to the bible god destroyed all the wicked persons during the flood of Noah’s day and only left the righteous.

    One wonders – couldn’t god have done similarly with Adam & Eve?
    Couldn’t he have put Adam & Eve to death and keep repeating the process until he found a human pair who would obey before allowing them to have children?

    10. As other commenters have stated:
    The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) if only God would just stick to that but God has certainly got more than his “pound of flesh” by piling on the agony of all kinds of mental and physical disabilities and diseases.

    The bible’s explanation of Original Sin is woefully inadequate. It states the penalty for sin is death. Death means death, not birth defects, blindness, deafness, paralysis, malaria, typhoid, SARS, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, fibromyalgia, depression, bacteria, viruses (transmitted by mosquitoes).

    If one is to believe that the Garden of Eden story actually happened then humanity should have ended with Adam and Eve.
    It makes zero sense that these perfect individuals committed a sin deserving of death but were allowed to live hundreds of years and fill the planet with doomed sinful imperfect offspring.

  8. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:
    About that Adam & Eve story – PT 2:

    11. God didn’t want Adam & Eve to know the difference between good and bad, right from wrong
    as this was an attribute  restricted to the gods. They were created without a moral sense, with no knowledge of right or wrong – just as toddlers lack such knowledge. Adam & Eve were like the animals in one sense: They had no knowledge of good and evil; of right and wrong. They were devoid of a moral sense. Only gods had such knowledge at the time. 
    Genesis 3:5:
    “For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”.

    Genesis 3:22:
    “Then the Lord God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil’ “.

    They lacked moral sense. They had no concept of right or wrong. They could only get the knowledge to NOT eat from the tree, only if they DID eat of that tree. They developed a moral sense for the first time after eating the forbidden fruit. 

    They had no moral sense – they couldn’t differentiate between right and wrong so why put the tree of good and evil in the garden? It seems God went out of his way to ensure his creation failed his test – why not put the tree out of their reach in Alaska? 
    God made this tree “desirable to the eyes” and “pleasing to look at” (Genesis 3:6). In effect, God was the first being to have created an entrapment. The evidence is there for all to see. He wanted Adam and Eve (and the entire human population that followed them, according to WT theology) to fail and fall into sin. 

    12. These two humans had no idea what “bad” meant. They ate from the tree because they didn’t understand what “bad” meant. When they ate from the tree, they now understood what “bad” and “good” was so why such a harsh punishment of diseases,  sickness, and death not only for them but for all humanity (according to WT theology)?

    It was only after the two ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they developed a moral sense, and thus could be held responsible for disobeying God. But he blamed them, and their billions of descendants anyway.
    A harsh and unfair God, harshly punishes a naive couple and everything else.

    13. How did eating the forbidden fruit make them now understood the difference between good and bad? 
    The snake was being accurate and helpful. He implied that the fruit was not poisonous. He said that if Eve ate the fruit she would magically and instantly develop a moral sense. For the first time, she would be able to distinguish good from evil; right from wrong. For the first time, she would share this attribute with the Gods.

    Eating fruit provides one’s body with vitamins, minerals to nourish their body, so the forbidden fruit must have had some special chemical that worked on Adam’s & Eve’s brains to give them moral sense.
    In reality, people do not acquire a new talent by eating fruit; we are dealing with a myth here.

    14. God being omniscient proactively took steps to ban Adam & Eve from the garden of Eden after they sinned as he foreknew that they would eat from the tree of life and live. Yet he didn’t foreknow that they would eat from the tree with the forbidden fruit and thereby take steps to put the tree with the forbidden fruit out of their reach – only the tree of life was deserving of such a proactive action.

    God didn’t have the foresight with regard to their eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil but he did in the case of the tree of life
    Having the foresight to realize what would happen if Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden, God takes the precaution of putting a barrier between them and the Tree of Life.

    Or is it that God is not omniscient – not even of high intelligence – because he did not realize that without a moral sense, Eve and Adam would probably eat the fruit sooner or later?
    Any parent who puts a plate of cookies in front of their 12 month-old infant and tells them not to eat any is aware of what the infant will do.

    15. The anachronisms in the text:
    Genesis 3:19:
    “In the sweat of your face you shall eat ***bread*** Till you return to the ground…..”

    Genesis 3:24:
    “After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming ***sword***flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    Did Adam & Eve know what a sword and bread were? (they were eating from fruit trees).
    These things weren’t invented until years after the garden of Eden incident – apparently god was the inventor of the first weapon.

    16. Genesis 3:14,15 is a good indication that the snake is a serpent and not Satan in disguise as claimed by Revelation 12:9 & 20:2. Otherwise it would make no sense for God to have punished all later generations of snakes – the curse on the snake has continued to the present time.

    Satan does not appear in Genesis or in the rest of the Pentateuch. Talking snakes and other animals are often found in ancient religious myths of the Middle East, where they represent real animals.

    17. According to the WT, “us” in Genesis 3:22 refers to God and Jesus Christ who was a co-creator: 
    “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us…..”

    The foregoing arguments served to highlight that the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 is a myth. As such “us” refers to multiple Gods as the passage was copied from a Pagan Middle Eastern source who followed a polytheistic religion: 
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geba.htm

    A good indication that Genesis 3 is a myth is that no trace of the Garden of Eden and of the Cheribims have ever been found. Of course, if  Noah’s flood (
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_st.htm#flood)  actually happened, it could have wiped out all trace of the Garden of Eden.

    18. Some may argue that Jesus referred to Adam and Eve as an act of direct creation (Matthew 19:4-6) and taught moral lessons if Adam & Eve were meant to be literal.
    One should keep in mind that:   – Jesus also taught other lessons (such as the prodigal son) that were illustrations, not literal accounts.
    – Archaeology indicates an older age for mankind than what the account of Adam & Eve claims.

    19. Some persons are of the opinion that it was not possible for the original paradisical conditions of the Garden of Eden as described in the Bible to exist:
    http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/faqs/paradise-earth/

    • JBob says:

      “Or is it that God is not omniscient – not even of high intelligence – because he did not realize that without a moral sense, Eve and Adam would probably eat the fruit sooner or later?
      Any parent who puts a plate of cookies in front of their 12 month-old infant and tells them not to eat any is aware of what the infant will do.”

      The evangelical and orthodox answer to this is that God knew, or foresaw (being omniscient and the start and end, as a parent would not have omniscience) that Eve, then Adam, would progressively break the first rule. It was part of THE “contingency” plan to show His unbounded, unconditional mercy–grace. Simple scripture, if you believe, you have eternal life–no promise of a panda, no promise of a fig tree and grapevines.

      It’s not complicated.

      • dee2 says:

        Interesting evangelical and orthodox viewpoint.

        God had two choices after Adam and Eve sinned:
        1. Show his “grace” right then and there in the garden of Eden by forgiving Adam and Eve and allowing them to eat from the tree of life and live forever (Genesis 3:22).

        OR
        2. Have his son murdered.

        God could have shown his “grace” right then and there in the garden of Eden. God has forgiven persons who have committed grave sins such as murder (Cain) and adultery (David) prior to Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Couldn’t God have forgiven Adam and Eve especially given the fact that they did not have moral sense before eating the forbidden fruit?

        The Bible tells us that even after they “sinned,” the first humans could have eaten fruit from the tree of life and lived forever (Genesis 3:22) which was why God banned them from the garden of Eden to prevent them from accessing the tree.
        However, allowing them to immediately eat from the tree of life to counteract the effects of “sin and death” caused by eating from the forbidden tree would have allowed God to accomplish his goal of man living forever on a Paradise earth right then and there without having to have his son murdered.

        Having Adam and Eve eat from the tree of life would have been a better solution because:

        – it would have been all-encompassing: passing perfection (and hence immortality) on to all of their offspring, rather than just to believers (those who believe in the Christian god).

        – it would have obviated the need for Adam’s & Eve’s offspring to pay the penalty of sickness, death, mourning, outcry, pain (Revelation 21:4) for a sin which they didn’t commit. It certainly isn’t justice (divine or otherwise) to condemn not only the criminal to death, but also his offspring who have nothing to do with his crime – it certainly isn’t justice if the law which governs societies today wasn’t satisfied with the death of a criminal but came after his offspring and executed them as well for the felon’s crime.

        – it would have saved Adam and Eve themselves.

        – But the best thing about this solution, of course, is that it would have eliminated the need for the Jehovah’s Witnesses to come knocking on our doors.
        _________
        Something else to consider:
        Courts across the world show mercy to those who do not know right from wrong. A “Not Criminally Responsible” designation is a fundamental principle of many justice systems. Accused persons must have the capacity to understand that what they did was wrong – otherwise they cannot be found guilty of an offence; such persons are not fit subjects for retribution or punishment:

        http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/vince-lis-request-for-more-freedom-okd-by-manitoba-review-board/ar-BBq1kDE?ocid=mailsignout

        http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/five-year-old-boy-investigated-for-rape-in-manchester-is-one-of-70-children-under-10-to-be-accused-of-sex-attacks/ar-AAgJl0U?li=AAggNb9

        However, according to the Bible Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong when they sinned (not knowing good from evil UNTIL they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). Yet we are told that God did not forgive them, but demanded the ultimate penalty many times over.

      • dee2 says:

        Not so sure about the “grace” contingency. If God really wanted people to live forever on a Paradise earth he would have accomplished his goal right then and there in the Garden of Eden without having to have his son murdered. If there was an opportunity for God to show “grace” there was no better time for it than right then and there in the Garden of Eden – Adam and Eve should not have been held criminally responsible given their limitation.

      • dee2 says:

        If God had the option to create a world where sin did not enter, and where grace/mercy would therefore be unnecessary, negating the need for Jesus to even die, not withstanding also, suffering and most going to hell, then why choose the worse option, this one,…….. riddled with sin, suffering, where most go to hell anyway, despite the sacrifice of Jesus. So that His grace/mercy may abound?

      • dee2 says:

        In heaven there will be no evil and so the chosen will have no need to make choices.

        Just as how God can prevent evil from entering heaven to which persons will be resurrected couldn’t he also have prevented evil from entering the earth in the first place in the case of Adam and Eve and still leave free will in tact? Sin entered the world because God chose to put the tree of the knowledge of good and bad where Adam and Eve, who at the time had no concept of good and evil, could access it. Had God chosen to put the tree out of Adam’s and Eve’s reach, no fruit eaten and thus sin does not enter, while leaving free will intact. God could also have chosen not to make that tree at all too. After all, being all-knowing, God would have known the choice Adam and Eve were going to make. So God could have made earth just like heaven with these options by taking evil out of the picture just as is the case with heaven.

      • dee2 says:

        Was Jesus’ sacrifice really a valid way to show mercy/grace?

        According to the Bible, Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins by means of his death.
        How ironic it is then, that God, who it is claimed endorsed the genocide of the Canaanites and others living in the promised land for practicing human sacrifice, sacrificed his own son.
        If sacrificing humans was so detestable that it justified killing everything that breathed then why did God sacrifice his son?

        Further, Jesus knew about his death and resurrection beforehand – according to the Bible, some time prior to his crucifixion Jesus predicted both his death and resurrection. if Jesus knew he would live again three days later what exactly did he sacrifice? By definition, a sacrifice is something that you give up without knowing in advance whether or not you are going to get it back.

        • dee2 says:

          One wonders what all that drama in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross was all about if Jesus knew beforehand that he was going to be resurrected.

          According to the Bible, God’s only-begotten son pleaded with him in the Garden of Gethsemane until his sweat turned into blood, to spare him if there were any possible way to do so. “My God! My God, why have you forsaken me?” were Jesus’ last words on the cross.

          Why all this drama if Jesus knew beforehand that he was going to be resurrected?

  9. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:
    About that Adam & Eve story – PT 2:

    11. God didn’t want Adam & Eve to know the difference between good and bad, right from wrong
    as this was an attribute restricted to the gods. They were created without a moral sense, with no knowledge of right or wrong – just as toddlers lack such knowledge. Adam & Eve were like the animals in one sense: They had no knowledge of good and evil; of right and wrong. They were devoid of a moral sense. Only gods had such knowledge at the time.
    Genesis 3:5:
    “For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”.

    Genesis 3:22:
    “Then the Lord God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil’ “.

    They lacked moral sense. They had no concept of right or wrong. They could only get the knowledge to NOT eat from the tree, only if they DID eat of that tree. They developed a moral sense for the first time after eating the forbidden fruit.

    They had no moral sense – they couldn’t differentiate between right and wrong so why put the tree of good and evil in the garden? It seems God went out of his way to ensure his creation failed his test – why not put the tree out of their reach in Alaska?
    God made this tree “desirable to the eyes” and “pleasing to look at” (Genesis 3:6). In effect, God was the first being to have created an entrapment. The evidence is there for all to see. He wanted Adam and Eve (and the entire human population that followed them, according to WT theology) to fail and fall into sin.

    12. These two humans had no idea what “bad” meant. They ate from the tree because they didn’t understand what “bad” meant. When they ate from the tree, they now understood what “bad” and “good” was so why such a harsh punishment of diseases, sickness, and death not only for them but for all humanity (according to WT theology)?

    It was only after the two ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they developed a moral sense, and thus could be held responsible for disobeying God. But he blamed them, and their billions of descendants anyway.
    A harsh and unfair God, harshly punishes a naive couple and everything else.

    13. How did eating the forbidden fruit make them now understood the difference between good and bad?
    The snake was being accurate and helpful. He implied that the fruit was not poisonous. He said that if Eve ate the fruit she would magically and instantly develop a moral sense. For the first time, she would be able to distinguish good from evil; right from wrong. For the first time, she would share this attribute with the Gods.

    Eating fruit provides one’s body with vitamins, minerals to nourish their body, so the forbidden fruit must have had some special chemical that worked on Adam’s & Eve’s brains to give them moral sense.
    In reality, people do not acquire a new talent by eating fruit; we are dealing with a myth here.

    14. God being omniscient proactively took steps to ban Adam & Eve from the garden of Eden after they sinned as he foreknew that they would eat from the tree of life and live. Yet he didn’t foreknow that they would eat from the tree with the forbidden fruit and thereby take steps to put the tree with the forbidden fruit out of their reach – only the tree of life was deserving of such a proactive action.

    God didn’t have the foresight with regard to their eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil but he did in the case of the tree of life
    Having the foresight to realize what would happen if Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden, God takes the precaution of putting a barrier between them and the Tree of Life.

    Or is it that God is not omniscient – not even of high intelligence – because he did not realize that without a moral sense, Eve and Adam would probably eat the fruit sooner or later?
    Any parent who puts a plate of cookies in front of their 12 month-old infant and tells them not to eat any is aware of what the infant will do.

    15. The anachronisms in the text:
    Genesis 3:19:
    “In the sweat of your face you shall eat ***bread*** Till you return to the ground…..”

    Genesis 3:24:
    “After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming ***sword***flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    Did Adam & Eve know what a sword and bread were? (they were eating from fruit trees).
    These things weren’t invented until years after the garden of Eden incident – apparently god was the inventor of the first weapon.

    16. Genesis 3:14,15 is a good indication that the snake is a serpent and not Satan in disguise as claimed by Revelation 12:9 & 20:2. Otherwise it would make no sense for God to have punished all later generations of snakes – the curse on the snake has continued to the present time.

    Satan does not appear in Genesis or in the rest of the Pentateuch. Talking snakes and other animals are often found in ancient religious myths of the Middle East, where they represent real animals.

    17. According to the WT, “us” in Genesis 3:22 refers to God and Jesus Christ who was a co-creator:
    “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us…..”

    The foregoing arguments served to highlight that the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 is a myth. As such “us” refers to multiple Gods as the passage was copied from a Pagan Middle Eastern source who followed a polytheistic religion:
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geba.htm

    A good indication that Genesis 3 is a myth is that no trace of the Garden of Eden and of the Cheribims have ever been found. Of course, if Noah’s flood (
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_st.htm#flood) actually happened, it could have wiped out all trace of the Garden of Eden.

  10. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:
    About that Adam & Eve story – PT 3:

    18. Some may argue that Jesus referred to Adam and Eve as an act of direct creation (Matthew 19:4-6) and taught moral lessons so Adam & Eve were meant to be literal.
    One should keep in mind that:
    – Jesus also taught other lessons (such as the prodigal son) which were illustrations, not literal accounts.
    – Archaeology indicates an older age for mankind than what the account of Adam & Eve claims.

    19. Some persons are of the opinion that it was not possible for the original paradisical conditions of the Garden of Eden as described in the Bible to exist:
    http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/faqs/paradise-earth/

    • Casual commenter says:

      Trying to rationalize the myth of Adam and Eve as a historical account (like both believing and atheist biblical literalists do) leads to many of the inadequacies you have pointed out. Seeing it as a myth like it was intended leads to many insights into both the Israelite experience and the common human experience. A clue that it should be read as a myth is found by observing that there are 2 creation stories in genesis and they have conflicting details. That fact doesn’t mean the author was an idiot it simply means he intended them to be read as myth.

  11. eyes opened says:

    @Pow

    You’re right about Proverbs 4:18. Reading the surrounding scriptures makes it clear the comparison is between following a wicked path versus a righteous one. It has nothing to do with “new light”.

    Regards

  12. Twmack says:

    @Average Joe.
    Your comment got me wondering. If God intends humans
    to populate other planets. How is this repatriation to take
    place ?

    The university of New South Wales, last year discovered a
    possible habitable planet, 14 light years away, quite near
    in cosmic terms. But I did read that just 1 light year using
    present technology would take 20,000 years to travel.
    so to get to that “near” planet would take 280,000 years.
    After that, distances will become much greater.

    And of course with no dying in the new world, population
    will increase at a much faster rate than now, requiring
    many rockets to transport the overflow. Factories and
    factory workers would be needed.

    Other questions come to mind but I’ll leave it there.
    I am genuinely interested in your thoughts as to how
    people will be transported across the universe.

  13. kittycat says:

    Paul says “not to go beyond what is written”…the WT does this often. Not a single verse states that Adam and Eve were created perfect, they were made “very good” and “fine”. Paradise earth is not once mentioned in terms of earth, always in terms of heaven.

  14. Average Joe says:

    @ everyone who responded to my comment…
    THANKS! Wow! What amazing responses and there was me thinking that not many took note of my ramblings!
    There’s a lot to digest and some really good points that I’d not thought about in the Garden of Eden account (especially thanks to you Dee2).
    As for Twmack, I am a HUGE sci-fi fan so I would like to believe that in the future we will be able to travel to other planets at warp speed, thus circumventing the current restrictions of vast distance. In many sci-fi stories there are inexplicable phenomena so there could well be the odd sun or two that never dies. I’d like to believe that God would help in our efforts but if not then we as humans are developing new technology all the time so I’m sure that space travel will become the norm eventually, just not in my lifetime.
    If God does indeed help us out with everything, then he could make other planets habitable for humans as he did with the Earth.
    Hope that answers your question and thanks again to all for the well thought out replies.
    AJ

    • Winston Smith says:

      @Average Joe,
      I’m with you on space travel. I have faith that humanity will eventually figure out traveling at speeds faster than light. The recent discovery of gravitational waves could be a first step in that direction (see http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html?referer=&_r=0).

      The sun has about 5 billion years of life left in it. I think that gives us enough time to figure out interstellar travel. We may even have figured out teraforming by then (Project Genesis for you Trekkers out there). Also, who knows what the state of human evolution will be by that time – we have done pretty well in the last 3.5 billion years.

      I don’t personally buy into living forever on earth with a bunch of ressurected folks, but I do believe that humanity will outlast the planet in some shape or form. I have no issue with someone choosing to interpret the scriptures to indicate eternal life on earth in some shape or form. It’s no worse off than the interpretation of eternal life in heaven, playing the harp on a cloud or something. It’s only the Watchtower’s methods of using this reasoning to exert undue control on its members that I have a problem with.

      WS

      • dee2 says:

        @WS

        “The sun has about 5 billion years of life left in it.”

        Scientists expect the sun to start going through its death throes long before that. When this begins to happen life on earth will become unsustainable.

        • Winston Smith says:

          It’s still really far out there in the future, so I think we will have interstellar travel figured out long before that, I’d guess in the next 10,000 years or so.

          • Winston Smith says:

            And keep in mind that less than 150 years ago all the experts said that heavier than air flight was a mere dream and the stuff of fairy tales. The Wright Brothers had a thing or to to say about that!

            WS

          • dee2 says:

            @WS

            I am not denying that interstellar travel is a possibility (man has already been travelling to the moon) – in one of my previous comments I made mention of NASA’s advancements in propulsion technologies which should speed up space travel to make visits to faraway galaxies/planets possible.

            I was just trying to make the point that the death of the sun is a process which begins quite some time before the sun finally dies in 5 billion years – it’s not always obvious that the death of a star is a process, and that it is not something which happens instantaneuosly.

            It certainly is a possibility that, before the sun begins to die, the time for interstellar travel could be significantly reduced and interstellar travel could become just like airplane travel. This would open up the possibility for humans to be evacuated from the earth when the time comes, should other earth-like, habitable planets with a sun that has a longer lifespan be found.

            Regards.

  15. Twmack says:

    Hi Average Joe. Thanks for taking the time to reply and
    for the interesting answer. I just checked out the present
    birth rate , 361, 000. babies ( Every Day ) .

    With death abolished the above figure would be compounded
    many times, the planets would fill up at warp speed. It would
    require a universal space industry to continually transport that
    amount of population around our galaxy and beyond.

    Ships like Capt, Kirks Enterprise with its crew of 100 would be no
    where big enough to do the job. To me Joe, science Fiction is
    where it belongs, it all seems illogical and highly unlikely

    But I found when I was a JW, that bringing JHVH into the
    equation got me off the hook many times when awkward
    questions came up. Best wishes, Twmack.

    • Winston Smith says:

      Let’s keep our SciFi “facts” straight: the original starship Enterprise could house a crew of 430 and the Enterprise D (The Next Generation) over a thousand.

      LOL

      WS

      • Average Joe says:

        Winston, you are one intelligent individual!
        I’m more a fan of Janeway’s Voyager though the Enterprise D with its 80s decor was much more accommodating!
        How about the idea from the “Insurrection” film? A whole planet of people in a transporter ship with Holo technology.

        • Tara says:

          Did you know that Glen A. Larson originally called Battlestar Galactica, Adam’s Ark? to quote from Wiki….

          the series originally incorporated many themes from Mormon theology, such as marriage for “time and eternity”, a “council of twelve,” and a planet called Kobol, as Larson was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.[1][2] However, he was unable to find financial backing for his TV series for a number of years. Battlestar Galactica was finally produced in the wake of the success of the 1977 film Star Wars.

          • Average Joe says:

            No way Tara! That’s amazing. Thanks for sharing. I have the whole series too (the 70s one).
            Glen A Larson produced so many hit shows in the 70s/80s. I had no idea he was a Mormon.

  16. Twmack says:

    As an after thought, Are these space shuttles going to be
    Noah’s Ark jobs, carrying elephants, rhinos etc. Just
    wondered.

    • dee2 says:

      @Twmack

      I guess those carnivores will have to turn into herbivores once again just like they did on the Ark, if all of the animals are to make it to their final destination.

      • Winston Smith says:

        If we could truly warp gravitational space the trip could be instantaneous. Don’t forget suspended animation options too. But with true terraforming you may also be able to count on the creatures to simply evolve on the new planets.

        The possibilities could be endless.

        WS

        • Winston Smith says:

          I’m not pointing all these possibilities out in order to argue pro-Watchtower teachings of a paradise earth and all. I’m just trying point out reasons for optimism amongst what appear to be really pessimistic outlooks.

          WS

      • Pow says:

        Don’t forget the dung beatles, and some bacteria or you’ll be sorry..

    • dee2 says:

      Or I suppose they could muzzle the carnivores???

  17. MARS says:

    I always thought the paradise future earth was a lure . I studied the bible on MY OWN , found only three references. The most was Jesus quote to the Theif on the Cross, that he will be with in paradise. The Old Testiment made few references again to a future life. So honestly the Watchtower just added a twist to what the bible actually said. But the lure of paradise made it so convincing as to why anyone stayed in the sect so long.

  18. dee2 says:

    @Average Joe:

    I appreciate your perspective – it certainly makes for an interesting debate.

    All stars die – it’s just a matter of when:

    http://www.space.com/57-stars-formation-classification-and-constellations.html#sthash.VwWsPQQ2.dpuf :

    “A low-mass star uses hydrogen fuel so sluggishly that they can shine as main-sequence stars for 100 billion to 1 trillion years — since the universe is only about 13.7 billion years old, according to NASA, this means no low-mass star has ever died. Still, astronomers calculate these stars, known as red dwarfs, will never fuse anything but hydrogen, which means they will never become red giants. Instead, they should eventually just cool to become white dwarfs and then black dwarves.”

    http://www.space.com/22437-main-sequence-stars.html#sthash.EjBT1xRZ.dpuf :

    “A red dwarf, which is half as massive as the sun, can last 80 to 100 billion years, which is far longer than the age of the universe. (This long lifetime is one reason red dwarfs are considered to be good sources for planets hosting life, because they are stable for such a long time.) 

    The long lifetime of red dwarfs means that even those formed shortly after the Big Bang still exist today. Eventually, however, these low-mass bodies will burn through their hydrogen. They will grow dimmer and cooler, and eventually the lights will go out.”

    (Our sun is not a low mass star – it falls into the category of stars with a shorter life span than low mass stars and which have been observed to die to date).

  19. Twmack says:

    Some of the comments thought to be pessimistic,
    are neither pessimistic or optimistic. They are just
    realistic, which surely is the best way to an
    optimistic future. I recommend It to all JWs.

  20. dee2 says:

    @Twmack

    At least we now know why God has not yet brought about Armageddon and the promised Paradise earth with immortal humans – he has been waiting on the travel time for interstellar travel to be reduced to warped speeds. He also probably realized that he couldn’t bring about Paradise as yet given the JW’s stance against higher education – they wouldn’t know that these feats of engineering and astronomy may be possible – but I suppose it goes without saying: God would help the JWs with their space program in Paradise; in that case, he could very well have brought about the Paradise earth before now. One wonders what God is waiting for since Paradise just needs a space program to be successful and he can help the JWs set that up.

  21. dee2 says:

    One thing is for sure, though – there is no guarantee that the JW Armageddon survivors will actually live forever.
    According to WT theology there will be a final test/second Armageddon at the end of Christ’s 1000-year reign as per Revelation 20:7-10. Revelation 20:7-10 guarantees that persons will inevitably be destroyed as a result of failing that final test as it unequivocally states that the number of such persons will be as the sand of the sea.

    Resurrected persons will escape this inevitable destruction given that they can no longer die (Luke 20:34-36 [NIV] & my previous comments regarding the application of this scripture).
    A portion of the JW Armageddon survivors would therefore be the only ones to suffer such an inevitable/inescapable fate – it’s therefore best to not put your life on hold for a future that is not guaranteed.

    Also, based on WT theology, will it be the same JW who died prior to Armageddon who will actually be resurrected or will it be a clone? The answer to this question should make JWs realize that this life is not a rehearsal, it is the one and only life you have; so don’t waste it fulfilling the demands of some cult:

    http://smmcroberts.net/blog/you-wont-be-resurrected/

    • Pow says:

      dee2
      Not a clone, A Hologram..or a halo-gram.lol
      Without all the working parts down below if you know what I mean…..kinda like ob1kownbe…..and we’re not waiting on interstellar travel..no were waiting on artificial intelligence, so we don’t have to work in factory’s, assembly lines and gasoline refineries to keep the new world powered up. .

      • Pow says:

        Ok, kids …..now we’re just getting plain silly,….if we’re not careful the writing committee might steal some of our ideas and use them in an upcoming watchtower.
        Now., let’s be serious for a moment and really try to understand… what is an overlapping generation. ……..on second thought, the Flux capacitor might be the hot ticket

        • Pow says:

          Job listing ; 02/25/2397
          Immediate opening, entry level position. SALARY : trade for food/clothing.
          BENEFITS :heath/life and disability included.
          JOB DESCRIPTION : making toilet paper,
          Duration : 1000 years +

      • dee2 says:

        LOL! You’re way too funny!

      • dee2 says:

        @Pow
        You have me laughing so much, I am almost in tears.

        I wouldn’t put it past the GB…….the Paradise interstellar space program as discussed here, just might make it into a WT magazine one if these days – I suspect when they have run out of options for their overlapping generations flapdoodle. LOL!

      • dee2 says:

        Writing Committee member on the Paradise Interstellar Travel Space Program:

        Remember when we said that the commencement of the space age in 1957 when the first Russian Sputnik was launched, was the fulfillment of the “signs in the sun, moon and stars” (Luke 21:25; Matthew 24:29)?

        [Watchtower 1975, pg. 276, paragraph 18; God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years pg. 323 – 328]

        Well I think a more definite sign/fulfillment would be interstellar travel at warped speeds! Remember now, this used to be the stuff of science fiction but scientists are convinced more and more that this will become a reality, so that’s huge!

        Do you realize what interstellar travel at warped speeds will mean? It means that Paradise must be coming real soon because now, interstellar travel at crazy fast, mind-blowing speeds will make it possible for immortal humans to be relocated to other planets to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated. What a God-send, this is just what we need – a Paradise Interstellar Travel Space Program to divert attention away from that embarrassing overlapping generations doctrine.

  22. Tara says:

    Come on guys… the way is clear. The Borg will assimilate us and we will all have a Hive mentality and travel around in a big cuboid for all eternity.

    “We are the Borg. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.”

    “We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”

  23. Twmack says:

    @dee2, interesting point you raise. “Are the resurrected
    no more than clones” ? Imagine if a resurrected person
    for some reason visited the grave where they were
    formerly buried, there’s the name on the headstone,
    Here lies the body of John Brown.

    Which is the genuine John Brown,? The one on top or the
    one below ? Which one came out of the mothers womb?

    For me that answers the question.

  24. MARS says:

    I recollect in a recent JW Broadcast had Anthony Morris tell his audience warning about higher education and tied it to the new system of things . That he said that in the new paradise earth no doctors will be needed , so dont get a career as a doctor. So education can ruin your chances for everlasting life on a paradise earth .

  25. Twmack says:

    It’s lucky for us that warp speed is still from the realms
    of science fiction and may never be possible as far as
    Inter-stellar travel is concerned.

    Otherwise we could get some unwelcome visitors from
    an older more advanced civilisation, whose Sun is on
    it’s last legs, and they’ve got their eyes on our blue.
    green and lush planet as their next home.

    What reason ( apart from the writings of Bronze Age
    flat earthers ) do we have to believe we’re the only
    ones capable of looking out at the universe around us.

  26. dee2 says:

    Is the WT’s Paradise Earth doctrine a delusion?

    The WT’s teaching that humans will live forever on a paradise earth will necessitate that given that there will be no more death, then immortal humans will have to be relocated to other planets in order to prevent the earth from becoming overpopulated.

    So how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?
    More and more habitable, earth-like planets would have to become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum as mankind’s population grows given that there will be no more death.

    The longevity/sustainability of life on these planets will be limited by the fact that the sun serving these planets will eventually die. So immortal humans will have to keep moving from planet to planet. Will other habitable, earth-like planets become available to facilitate this movement from planet to planet on a continuous basis ad infinitum?

    With no death, planets could quickly fill up within hundreds or thousands of years depending on their size.
    If there was no death on planet earth since man’s beginning, for example, the earth’s population would be over 108 billion today:
    http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

    So how many habitable, earth-like planets are there?
    Will enough habitable, earth-like planets become available on a continuous, never-ending basis ad infinitum in order to accommodate immortal human beings whose population would be growing continuously since there will be no death? and since the sun serving the already populated planets will eventually die?

    It seems to me that the universe would have to be in continuous expansion mode to accommodate this continuous/never-ending population growth of human beings on habitable, earth-like planets or, are all of the existing planets going to be converted into habitable, earth-like planets to accommodate this continuous/never-ending population growth of human beings? as well as their movement from planet to planet when the sun dies?

    Perhaps the simpler, uncomplicated option is just to create human beings as mortals so that they go through a life cycle just like everything else.

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  • LINKS - You may post links to third party websites, so long as (1) you limit these to 2 links per comment, and (2) the content on these links doesn't contravene ANY of the first four points. Specifically, you may not post URLs to websites that are evangelical in nature. Our links page has an extensive list of such sites for any who are curious about Christian beliefs in the context of Jehovah's Witnesses.

JWSurvey.org thanks all visitors in advance for respectfully observing these guidelines. Any who persistently fail to do so, despite warnings, may find themselves blocked from making further comments at the discretion of the site moderators, whose decision will be final and not open for debate.