Animated film sheds light on Watchtower’s “two witness rule.”
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One of the most controversial stories to have impacted Watchtower in recent years has been the scandal over their handling of child sex abuse within the Witness community. Many news outlets have covered this issue, from the BBC to the Guardian, and many more besides, thanks in no small part to the flood of information now coming to light in the wake of many court cases and official government investigations.

One of the most troubling aspects of Watchtower policy is the so-called “Two Witness Rule,” which time and again in court and in investigations such as the Australian Royal Commission has been identified as a key factor in abuse accusations being effectively ignored by Watchtower Elders.

A new video produced by youtube channel “Talk Beliefs” quickly and simply lays out what the two-witness rule is, how it is used by Watchtower when accusations of child sexual abuse are brought to the elders, and what the impact of strict adherence to this policy can be upon the abuse survivor.

This video is an excellent tool for use with the general public who are often completely unaware of the harmful policies of Watchtower in this area, and who might not always have to the time to read through multiple news articles or watch longer videos to get up to speed on the issue.

It is also well worth showing to current Witnesses, as many of them are either not aware of how this rule is applied within the congregations, or who are aware but have not fully thought through the probable end result of this rule:

That of a pedophile left free to abuse a child again and again whilst the elders simply “leave matters in Jehovah’s hands.”

 

Follow me on twitter @covertfade

 

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86 Responses to Animated film sheds light on Watchtower’s “two witness rule.”

  1. KTMmadbrit says:

    Couldn’t find that video about the “Two Twitness Rule” on that website.

  2. ruthlee says:

    Brick by brick by brick. Ruthlee

  3. The Modeller says:

    My local elders say that Safeguarding is not their problem as they don’t organise any events for children. They say the responsibility for protecting children is in the hands of the parents. BTW, a new Safeguarding policy came out on 1/1/17 and is available on AvoidJW.org. It is an improvement on the old one.

    • Chiafade says:

      Are you referring to the 1/6/17 letter? The only thing that appears there is the rigid stance on retaining records on child abuse but never reporting to the authorities. Which is damning in itself. In that case they are “safeguarding” their image.

    • Chiafade says:

      Never mind I just read the 1/1/17 letter directed to bodies of elders in the UK and Ireland. In no way do I see any improvements to their child abuse policies. It still the same old rhetoric. “Contact the branch immediately for legal advice”…” don’t rely on past advice given etc..blah blah blah”. Nothing directing the elders or telling the elders to direct abused victims to CALL THE AUTHORITIES FIRST. It’s as if they WANT the governments chasing after them.

      What I find interesting is that their stated policy is available to anyone in the congregation but they don’t have a letter that directs the elders to announce that to the congregation. It’s up to the rank and file to figure that out on their own.

      Thank you for pointing this out.

      • The Modeller says:

        I never said the Safeguarding policy was satisfactory, I said it was an improvement. I’ve never seen a satement like this appear before: ‘ A report to the police or other appropriate authorities will be made immediately by the congregation elders if it is determined that a child is still at risk’ (point 13). Isn’t that an improvement? There’s some way to go, but things are moving in the right direction, albeit slowly.

        • phoenix says:

          In response to your comment “‘ A report to the police or other appropriate authorities will be made immediately by the congregation elders if it is determined that a child is still at risk’ (point 13). Isn’t that an improvement? ”
          My response: It might be an improvement IF the elders deemed the child to be at risk. But, the elders only act on the advice of Bethel. Bethel advises not to report unless there is a law insisting the elders report abuse. Item 13 might be no more than a “Disclaimer” to protect the org, rather than to protect children at risk. I feel dubious that any cases would be reported. In Australia, zero of 1006 known cases were reported and that seems to be the world-wide practice of protecting pedophiles, silencing victims, and protecting the organization from scandal. But don’t worry. The JW behavior will inevitably catch up with them. They will reap what they sow, right?

          • Covert Fade says:

            Hi guys.
            About this point that appears in the UK 2017 Safeguarding policy-that might appear to allow elders to report if they think a child is at risk- we are preparing an article to clear up the confusion on it. Long story short, it appears to be more for show in the Uk than any actual change, but will explain in the article.

    • outandabout says:

      If the WT cares so much, why has it taken them so many decades to improve it or to even tentatively admit that there is a problem at all?

      Before they were forced to finally admit any wrongdoing, they tried to lay the blame on apostates and gay’s first. That didn’t work.

      They’re not improving anything because they want to….they do it because the have to and they do it a tiny piece at a time to see how little they can change and still get away with it.

      They would have been happy to leave the policy exactly as it was if it weren’t for the fact that Satan’s world cares more for the protection of children than the Watchtower does and the WT needs Satan’s world for it’s very survival which is why they make any changes at all.

      They’re being forced to grovel to Satan. Satan is giving the WT a much needed lesson in morality.

      WT leeches off the world and needs the world and it’s approval to enable it’s religious scam to continue and the WT needs to talk out both sides of it’s mouth at the same time to achieve that…something it’s been very good at, but….

      ‘you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can’t fool all the people all the time’.

      The protecting of children inside the congregation has never been their priority. Their main priority is and always has been the protection of their image as the cleanest and the most correct religion in the world and “to hell with a ‘few’ pesky children”. All along it’s just been a mind controlling religious scam and that religious scam is unraveling because of the internet which, unfortunately for them, their Jehovah is not protecting them from.

      Abused children have been viewed by the WT as collateral damage in their quest for greater glory.

      I wonder what Jesus would say about that.

      • Robyn Bass says:

        Well put my friend, I couldn’t have put it any better. I am a faded JW for many many years & live in the UK, all my JW family & extended family live Aust. I only stumbled across the ARC in feb. last year so I decided to ask my parents about it. I am not disfellowshipped & have always maintained a good relationship with them all.
        But I could never in my wildest dreams have dreamt of the catastrophic outcome of that decision. I was told it was just rubbish off the internet, the Shepard book didn’t exist, it was just wicked people making good people look bad & best of all “my mother informed me I was possessed by satan”. These comments from people who I thought were sane. My br.in law has been a high up elder & head of a department in Sydney Bethal with my sister for 17years. Ten months later & I am still being treated as dead, despite my 102 e maills, my cards, letters & videos. Their phones are always on answer phone. I’ve never said or done anything against their religion in all the years I’ve been faded. The ARC has changed all that, I was propelled into research, something I have never ever done before. All I can say is WOW !!
        Although I was born in, coearsed into baptism at 15 & went down the aux.pioneering route, I knew absolutely nothing about this religion that I was prepared to give my life for. Although I had since realised that a lot of their doctrines are rubbish I still thought I was going to die at Armageddon, I was still brain washed & didn’t even know it. At last I’m free, knowledge is power. I now tell as many people as I can about this cruel, secretive, what I now call a CULT. Children’s lives are at risk, ROLL ON MARCH 20, 2017.

  4. JBob says:

    I’m going to play skeptic here. Realizing that the percentage of pedophiles among the JW’s is probably rare to less-than-common, I would state the sage advice for parenting remains regarding advicing a child not to have someone put their hands on their body, unwantedly, and to trust their misgivings or uneasiness being alone with someone.

    At the time (1950-1969), child abuse and molestation issues were not being handled by governments, so if a priest or minister had an abuse case, he could take it to the authorities, but what would they do? there were few regulations and procedures specific to child molestation through which these crimes would be prosecuted, plus the counseling and therapy required for recovery.

    i also believe this video is rather simplistic to take one person’s accusation and run as solution since that gets us back to the Witchcraft Trials of the Dark Ages. one accuser (maybe more are quietly waiting in fear to report) encouraged to take their case to law enforcement outside of the group and closed community for research and investigation is necessary.

    It was only in the late 1980’s that sex offender registries were established so historically everyone was in the dark as to who was or not a pedophile or rapist. There was an historic case in the 1980’s (in the USA) which spear-headed the worldwide surge in data bases of sex offenders being available to the public.

    the issue, as with other JW matters, is the practicers keeping up with the wealth of information and changes affecting how to handle various events. So, while persons in one area may be encouraged to seek law enforcement, others may be under “old methods” and encouraged to stay inside the group. some elders encourage accusers to seek secular help if their “two-witness rule” can’t indict the target, others follow the old method of circling the wagons. similar to the confusion with blood matters.

    Guidebooks regardless of how meticulous can not cover every detail.

    on the plus side, every news report of a JW pedophile being caught by law enforcement indicates that the new method of turning those assailants over to secular representatives is in effect.

    • Lac says:

      Not rare silentlambs.org has list of pedophiles from Jehovah’s witnesses very extensive

    • outandabout says:

      J Bob…..if the WT were the only ones in the world receiving truth, they would be so far ahead of the game it would be them showing the world how best to protect children, not the other way around.

      I agree with most of what you point out, but we’re talking about WT here. According to them, they don’t need no man made rules, man! They know it all! They claim to be no part of this world… until they need us…..which is all the time, but they can’t admit that.

      They’re happy to kick us in the guts as a show in front of their grateful sheep and then afterwards giving us a consoling pat on the back while buying us a drink from a quiet bar. Best of mates.

      I feel you’re cutting this evil empire some slack. Stop it!

      • JBob says:

        @outandabout – LOL! I never said I was any good at playing skeptic, but you’re correct in bringing to the fore that this group portrays itself to membership as “the shining city on the hill” with being light-years ahead and innovative. So, we’d expect that during the time when governments and other religions did not have a roadmap on handling abuse cases Watchtower Inc and Christian Congregations of JW, Inc would have been leading the way. The data base was there, but sharing the information to warn or to encourage counseling and treatment–not there. Likewise, the check and balance for human frailty from within the hierarchy has always been “left to Jehovah” which was always an avoidance statement since using their model, it could’ve been Jehovah moving the young child to bring a bad seed to light and the hierarchy ignored it–“out of the mouths of babes,” if I’m not mistaken?

        Also, to explain the “rare” statement, obviously child abuse happens with frequency, but comparing it to the scale of interactions most JW’s have with children and individuals, it is not a frequent thing. Otherwise, every knock on your door would be a grope of your ‘nads or otherwise. Is the frequency of pedophilia in this group higher than the general population? Not enough data, yet?

        So, some news items on this topic make it akin to saying all college fraternity young men (or all men) are rapists when only a single-digit percentage or less are associated with acts of rape. Not all JW’s are pedophiles; not all elders or MS are pedophiles. Are/Were they (former or current) part of a system that enabled victimization? Yes.

        • Robyn Bass says:

          Go on line to the ARC web site & read the “justice report” & you’ll be able to read all about the MANDATORY reporting laws that each Australian state has had for many years.
          1,006 case files obtained from the Sydney branch with a COURT ORDER issued by the ARC.
          NONE REPORTED TO THE POLICE.
          That says it all.

  5. Big B says:

    Great commentary and to the point video Covert Fade.

    It’s the same old thing, the Elders of the Congregations have all the “Scriptural authority” needed to protect the congregation and report the perpetrator but are hobbled by the WTBTS from contacting the authorities.

    Therefore, as the rank & file, you really don’t know who you’re sitting next to during the meetings.

    The phrase “leave the matters in Jehovah’s hands” is nothing more than ‘Watchtower speak’ for DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. They will wait until this so called ‘congregation member’ destroys another life before they will take action; and even then the matter will not go beyond the back room. The friends will fail to be warned by the elders even if the perpetrator is dis-fellowshipped.

    Without contacting the authorities this vile perpetrator (dis-fellowshipped or not) will be free to practice his despicable behavior outside the Kingdom hall in public; a general population completely unaware there is a monster walking in their midst.

    Truly a sad commentary on the Jehovah’s Witness organization and the WTBTS in general. A perpetual shame and disgrace on them all.

    • Robyn Bass says:

      Yes. Even when they disfellowship the vile beast because they don’t want him, they still do not report the known child abuser to the police & now he is on the loose in the wider world.
      Everyone that hasn’t seen the old uneducated elder saying this under oath, to the barrister at the ARC, for goodness sake go online & view it.

  6. WTCritic says:

    In light of this here is another video I think is worth all JW’s considering regarding Watchtower:

  7. Ted says:

    No law court would say “Let’s leave things in Jehovahs hands.
    Who would be happy with that system of justice? Certainly
    not the wt, org, their lawyers would challenge the law and
    argue for their rights, no hanging about waiting for supernatural
    intervention. They are practical, worldly, and realistic.

    How cruel to use that terminology on victims, in effect it is Increasing
    their anguish by placing God in their path to justice. It reveals a
    complete absence of love as well as total inadequacy in dealing
    with this complex and emotional issue. Of course the true intent
    is to hush things up.

    • messenger says:

      There’s really a huge double standard here. You only hear leave it in Jehovah’s hands when someone in authority is under scrutiny, an elder or above. But no one takes that position when a lowly one is caught celebrating Christmas, smoking, god forbid a blood transfusion, or violating any of the countless WT rules. Then they must keep the congregation clean by playing take the sinner down, and let him not escape our ostracism. No leave it in Jehovah’s hands then. Ironically that’s when they should leave it in Jehovah’s hand. When they are stinky they should clean up their own stink. Isn’t that what the story about the rafter in one’s eye teaches?

      • Ricardo says:

        Good point, messenger. When the elders make a mistake or break the rules, then we hear the excuse that they are imperfect men. Cut them some slack, they’re doing their best. When we make a mistake they come down on us like a ton of bricks. Reminds one of the pharisees. And they love to use the word ‘disappointed’. We are disappointed in you. Yeh, well I am disappointed in them.

    • Eyes opened says:

      You are so right. Gerrit Loesch sure didn’t leave things in Jehovah’s hands. He refused to obey the superior authorities and thereby refused to allow Jehovah to give him what to speak in that very hour. He showed no confidence in God and proved his hypocrisy.

      Regards

  8. twistedsister69 says:

    Nice article, CF. Interesting how the elders do not view it as their responsibility to safeguard the CHILD, yet they will go out of their way to safeguard the child MOLESTER.

  9. Caroline says:

    I think of the situations where the child has a father in the congregation and he is the molester of his own child or children.

    It has to be so very difficult for the child to go to the mother and tell the mother what happened and so I wonder how many times that a child was molested and didn’t tell the mother out of fear of not being believed and then when the child did tell the mother that the mother didn’t believe the child.

    If the child tells the mother what the molester did, she would go to the elders to tell them what happened and then the child and the father are brought before the elders and the molester denies what happened and then the child, not being believed feels they have nobody who can protect them from the abuse and has to go home and continue to live in that house and continues to be abused and then that child goes to the meetings and sees everyone treating their father like he’s such a nice person but the child knows what a monster their father is and the elders and their own mothers didn’t believe them.

    There is no child who is going to go against the elders and the mother and report the abuse to the police.

    It’s only when a third person such as a doctor or a teacher discovers the real truth is when that child finally feels validated and even then, may not report the abuse or even denies the abuse because the mother and the congregation elders will tell the child what a reproach it will be on “Jehovah” if that child continues with his story and tells anybody about what happened.

    If the elders didn’t continue to harp on how much reproach it will bring on “Jehovah” and kept their noses out of it and in fact encourage the mother to report the matter to the authorities, then the authorities could sort it out and if found out to be a true story, the child would be removed from the home and put into a safe environment but the elders have too soft a heart for the “imperfections” of their male friends and label the abuse as a sin and not a crime.

    The problem is that most children will love that parent.

    That parent probably showers them with love and attention so how much more difficult to turn that kind of parent in for abuse. What father is going to be mean to their little girl and then sexually molest her? No, he’d groom her first. Make her love him and then molest her.

    Some (including the elders) make the child feel responsible for the abuse like it was the child’s fault that the guy just couldn’t help himself because he’s imperfect etc. and play the imperfect game and play the “Jehovah won’t forgive you of your sins if you can’t forgive others of their sins” game.

    And then you have the guy that cries and says he will never do it again but the wife believes him and not her child and then you have the wife that has lost trust in the guy but she’s got children to take care of.

    How is she going to take care of her children if the guy is put in prison and now she’s the one and only breadwinner and she’s got to get a full time job and put the kids in day care? Some places, she won’t get help with day care and it could be that her husband had a good job but since she hasn’t had much in schooling, can’t get a job that pays enough to support the kids so she stays with the guy and doesn’t believe her daughter or son just so they can all survive and that child has to live in that home anyway with nobody taking their side and then you have the elders telling the mother all those things that she has to take into consideration before she reports it to the police.

    All of this is put on the shoulders of a little child and if the family splits up and they become very poor because of that, the child may feel responsible.

    Is it any wonder that when a child is abused in the JW religion, they will need the help of a therapist who knows what it’s like for that child to have been abused in a cult like the JW religion for the rest of their lives?

  10. outandabout says:

    Caroline…..I think I’m falling in love with you.

    • Caroline says:

      outandabout, thank you. I can use some love!!!

      I remember hearing the phrase many times in my history in the religion “leave it in Jehovah’s hands” and I truly believed that Jehovah was listening and would fix any problem. I really believed that with all my heart and now I realize that yes, it was a way of the elders being lazy or not taking responsibility for being the ones that would take care of matters.

      If you/we wanted justice then and now, or saw something that went directly against what the Bible said, we were convinced we were not putting our faith in Jehovah if we took matters in our own hands.

      We were supposed to believe that Jehovah would clear it up and so to take matters into our own hands (talking about it to others in the congregation), we would be showing we didn’t have faith in Jehovah or that Jehovah was not directing the organization and so I believed that Jehovah would clear things up and correct a wrong understanding or bring justice to someone who felt that they weren’t getting justice, i.e. a wife that was being abused or cheated on by her husband but she couldn’t prove it etc.

      I really believed that if it was according to Jehovah’s will, that Jehovah would listen to my prayers when I prayed to Him and he’d step in and clear up matters and that is what I did. I prayed that Jehovah would step in and clear up matters.

      It never dawned on me that children were being abused and the Society was protecting them. Had I known that, I would have brought it to the elder’s attention years ago and I would not have cared one way or the other what they would have done to me. That is the kind of person I am.

      I remember when the Catholic church was first being proved of moving pedophile priests from one parish to another parish and my jw husband said that he could not understand why anybody would want to stay with the Catholic Church and I agreed with him but in 2015 when I got him to listen to the Australia Royal Commission’s videos, he absolutely could not listen to any arguments against the Watchtower Society, even after listening to Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony. That was the kind of person he was. I was not like that.

      I never could stand being quiet when I saw hypocrisy, even when it came to the Society, even when I thought that Jehovah was directing the Organization. I would have brought it to the elder’s attention and when they would have tried to shut me up, I would have known (like being kicked in the gut by a horse) that there was no way that Jehovah could be directing the congregation.

      I might have thought that it was just my rogue congregation elders who didn’t care about molested and raped children but when I would have seen Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony, I would have realized that the direction to not protect the children came directly from the top and yes, it would have been like being kicked in the gut to come to that realization.

      Now I realize it’s to protect their (Society) huge real estate empire is what they care about and not the kids.

      I have no fear of the elders at all because I know the difference between right and wrong and I could never stand up for an organization that cares more about their money than the protection of the kids.

      The sad thing is that there are those who will close their eyes and ears to the cries of those children. They will refuse to believe it. They think they are so smart and that there is no way that they could have been deceived like that and I think of those who are the most self-deceived and arrogant , the pioneers. They are the ones to be the most pitied. They are the ones who have lost the most in life.

      Those of us who only spent 10 hours or less in field service every month and might have been looked down on because of our hours, didn’t waste nearly as much of our lives as the pioneers have and many of them are old now and even gave up having kids for the Watchtower buildings.

      I should feel sorry for them, but I don’t, unless they come out of their brain fogs and put their religion to the test. If they don’t condone the child abuse in the Catholic Church, but refuse to listen to the same abuses within the JW religion, then there is no excuse for them.

      • Big B says:

        @ Caroline:

        Again, as always, well said!

        “but the elders have too soft a heart for the “imperfections” of their male friends and label the abuse as a sin and not a crime.

        Personally, I think that the elders have too soft a “HEAD” and are completely out of their comfort zone. They may mean well but a complete lack of education for most elders shows that the WTBTS has to continue to dumb things down for their adherents. (Like the ‘Silver Sword’ for example). The qualifications for reaching out to become an elder like years studying the Bible or years of education does not come into the picture. However, worthless intangibles such as how much time spent in the field ministry, meeting attendance, etc. carry more weight to the WTBTS it seems.

      • ROBIN MILLER says:

        oh you said it! you have been through alot. bless you!

      • messenger says:

        Caroline a lot of times the “leave it in Jehovah’s hands” line was a diversion tactic to protect the elders or one of them caught in shenanigans . When they are caught doing something wrong they have other lines also like, “do you believe Christ is head of the congregation?” or “Christ has the 7 stars (elders) in his hand.” Why the leave it in Jehovah’s hands never made any sense is because it implies Jehovah will, in the future, reveal something further about the offender; but the thought is senseless, because a person who accepts that should accept that God just did reveal something about the offender. The crap is already on the table for everyone to see.

      • Blushing ex elder says:

        This has always been a difficult topic for me to comment on, however it was the real trigger for me leaving the org.

        I personally don’t think that the majority of elders are ‘in it for themselves’ or deliberately trying to cover up wrongdoing. I was raised from birth by witness parents, followed the praiseworthy path ( with only a few acts of rebellion) served as a MS & elder, on various committees, gave talks at circuit & district assemblies…and sat on two Judicial Commitees involving child abuse. My own feelings at the time were of being under a considerable burden that I was hopelessly unqualified to deal with. As presiding overseer I felt so totally out of my depth faced with these poor victims anguish. So what does the body of elders do? The problem lies, as I see it, with the years of conditioning received from this organisation. Never to think more of yourself than you should, never go beyond the things written, never feel you are in any better position to judge than your brother elder. So you have 4,5 maybe 6 elders sat together all thinking that they know no more than the person next to them. Who is going to stand up and say ” we should be telling the police”? The times I wanted to say that and yet thought, no one else seems to think that way, why do I think I know better? And so you have the worst of all decisions by committee…what does the society say on this matter? What do the scriptures say? No matter how strongly you feel, the default position is ‘ leave it in Jehovah’s hands’. Elders are too scared to do the right thing. This is no excuse for those of us who failed the victims who trusted us. It’s a shameful, pathetic cop out….but one that we were conditioned to opt for over all the years on ‘inculcating’ (brainwashing) we may have sat through. I still feel utter shame for my failure to stand up and be different, but mostly I feel sorrow for the ones we let down so badly. Since leaving over 7 years ago, I have contacted one of those who also left because of the way she was treated. We have talked a lot and I have offered, many times, to support any action she wishes to take to the authorities. So far she has declined to do so, but knows that the offer will always be there. How glad I am to be free of that crippling organisation even though I am of course shunned by my dear family and life long friends. Most elders are taught, programmed and mostly scared to do what is obviously the right thing. Shame on them and on me, but mostly, shame on the religion that made them that way.

        • Winston Smith says:

          @Blushing
          I followed a very similar path in the org as you did. Looking back on my time as an elder, I often think: “how could I have been so deluded?” I know it was a result of cult conditioning and propaganda, and yes you are correct that most of blame lies with the organization, but I still feel chagrin at how far off base I was. It comes down to the fact that given the right circumstances, just about anyone can succumb to cult-conditioning, especially when it starts at birth.

          WS

        • messenger says:

          Don’t feel too sad blushing. You’ve confessed not just before God, but also here before men-not that telling us was necessary for God to forgive you . As Christ said, “your sins are forgiven.” Keep going!

          There have been psychological studies done that prove individuals often relinquish their own moral compass when making decision inside a group.

    • peggy says:

      I know several cases where this was true.

  11. ruthlee says:

    With all this dialogue it got me thinking, Surely if this was god’s organisation if there was just one known child molester the society would do everything in it’s power to distance themselves from such a person not protect them. They could give fair warning before going to the correct authorities but just do the right thing. I am having a hard time trying to understand the stubborn refusal to comply. Is it really just the money? Have the reduced every one down to dollars? Even the most greedy empires have a benevolent fund. Surely as I have appealed before to those in Brooklyn who read this site!! there is an honest john who will publish that list of known paedophiles. Hey we don’t want to see the list but the justice department and police do. Someone must have an ounce of conscience. All the money in the world does not bring back the virginity of a child. There is no compensation really and no waiting on Jehovah either. That is the lamest thing an elder can ever say it really means forget about it. This org will go down as shameful and greedy. We all had such high hopes when indoctrinated . So glad to be out but very sad for the children who are damaged. Ruthlee

    • twistedsister69 says:

      @ruthlee
      “Even the most greedy empires have a benevolent fund.”
      Ah, Ruthlee, you dewey-eyed young Moon Calf. 😀
      Perhaps you missed the environmental documentary I watched, in which the results of a study of corporate behavior was revealed. A team of psychologists studied the behavior of corporations as if they were individuals. They found that all the corporations they analyzed fit most of the criteria of a SOCIOPATH/PSYCHOPATH.
      The painful truth is, greedy empires/corporations NEVER do anything benevolent for ANYONE unless there’s a PAYOFF of some kind – i.e. tax breaks, positive “good guy” public image, having people/organizations beholden to the benefactor, etc. — Think of the term “benevolent dictator”. It’s an oxymoron, a total contradiction. There’s simply no such thing.

      • Edo says:

        Hi! What’s the documentary? I’d be interested in seeing it! Seems interesting! thank you

        • twistedsister69 says:

          Sorry, it was something I caught part-way thru on TV one night. Not sure if I ever even saw the title. But that item really stuck in my mind. It may have been one of those PBS documentaries. You may want to check out PBS.org. Not even sure when it was made. All I can say is I saw it maybe 8 – 12 months ago. Sorry I can’t give u more info. 🙁

      • Ren says:

        @twistedsister69 would you please give me the title or provide a link to the environmental documentary you watched? This kind of thing fascinates me, and seems to be a growing phenomenon.

        • twistedsister69 says:

          Sorry, it was something I caught part-way thru on TV one night. Not sure if I ever even saw the title. But that item really stuck in my mind. It may have been one of those PBS documentaries. You may want to check out PBS.org. Not even sure when it was made. All I can say is I saw it maybe 8 – 12 months ago. Sorry I can’t give u more info. 🙁

      • messenger says:

        Ruthlee scientific psychological studies have also been conducted to determine if an individual’s decisions can be effected when making those decisions as part of a group. What those studies found is that when people belong to a group some will agree to take harmful actions against others that they would not have decided on or agreed to as an individual, due to their ethical beliefs. Deciding with the group they decided against their personal ethical beliefs.

        Other studies were conducted to see how far individuals would go in inflicting harm if they were instructed to by an authority figure. A certain percentage of people took actions against their subjects that they were told could cause death. The studies I’m referring to were purely scientific and not on corporation.

        Both types of studies could explain some of the psychological reasons governing bodies, and elder bodies are often willing to inflict harm on other people. If these men were left to make some of the judgments on their own sanctions against rule breakers may not be so harsh.

    • Caroline says:

      ruthlee, I don’t believe it’s just the money. I think it’s their reputation as well as the money. If they admit (like the Catholic Church did) of all the abused children within the Organization, they wouldn’t have the look of a squeaky clean Organization, like what they want the public and the rank and file to believe and so they stall and stall when it comes to any lawsuits being filed against them and admitting fault and paying out the lawsuits against them.

      The Society wants all it’s people to look really nice all the time (why it’s so important how they dress too) to make the outside world think that Witnesses stand out as different and “clean”. It’s all about appearances to attract more followers. The more followers they can get, the more prestige the Organization takes on and the more people they can attract who will donate to the Organization.

      The Society would have to fear a mass exodus if the abuse became public knowledge and that it was the Society’s fault for covering it up (not the local elders only).

      My husband couldn’t figure out why anybody would want to say they were Catholic after the abuse in the Catholic Church became public knowledge and surely the Society has to have a real fear of losing adherents if the real truth comes out about them covering up for child abusers. The Society doesn’t have to worry about that ever happening though.

      Just as most people stayed in the Catholic Church, most Witnesses would stay in that religion too. Most loyal Witnesses would reason that it’s rare that bad people infiltrate the congregation and not hold it against the Organization.

      I feel that most Witnesses would reason that those people seeking money from the Watchtower are greedy and evil.

      That is what my husband said and I believe that is what most of the rank and file would say too. Most would refuse to blame “Jehovah=Organization” and have no fellow feeling for the victims and if they don’t care about the kids, then that makes them evil in my opinion.

      The Society doesn’t have to worry about losing the rank and file if they come clean and admit their fault in the child abuse scandals and pay up.

      They have produced 8 million sociopaths who will take their side until they die and gladly pay whatever the Society asks of them.

      • outandabout says:

        You’re right when you say it’s not only money they want to protect, but their reputation as well, Caroline. Those two things go hand in hand.

        If they can’t attract new sheep because of the Truth about them being out there, they will eventually die out.

        They may have 8 million sociopaths at the moment, but once the abuse becomes general knowledge, there goes their claim, as if it hasn’t already, to being Gods only true organisation. Child abuse going on unchecked and the protection of pedophiles since at least 1950 just wouldn’t happen if they had an ounce of Gods backing. I have more of Gods backing in my big toe than they have.

        They’re so deluded they probably thought the big ‘A’ was going to arrive and sweep the child abuse away for them.

        Our fundamental instinct is to reproduce and rear successful young. The WT want to interfere with that for their own gain.

        The WT can convince a parent to override their natural and supposedly god given instinct to protect their child in order for them to maintain their ‘being right’ illusion.

        This is what is happening when a parent is coerced into not reporting child abuse and when a child is left to die for want of blood.

        The WT is masquerading as something beautiful when in reality it is an evil and needs stamping out.

        The WT has shown they don’t actually care about the things that are the most dear to us….our children.

        21,000 unreported and protected child molesters. Thank you, Lloyd for extrapolating those Aussie figures out like that and as you say those figures correspond with Bill Bowen’s 23,720 figure which was reported to him separately by two WT insiders and which WT, to show how much they care for children, is refusing to release even under court order and a daily fine.

        • messenger says:

          I don’t believe this governing body really believes the end is coming in the near future. Their action to move out of Brooklyn doesn’t support such a belief. The governing body members in the mid-20th century probably really did believe the end was close. I don’t think these guys believe that anymore, even if they once did.

          And I’ve been told by quite a few older Witnesses that they never thought they would grow old in this system. My guess is a lot of the older crowd now expect to die in this system. But where can they go? most of them think. Most probably still view the WT as God’s only Earthly organization. And even if they begin to doubt that they may think its still the best place to be. Most haven’t been radicalized like the folks here. And a JW has to be somewhat radicalized to escape the powerful concept of being a part of God’s chosen people, following God’s anointed, and the belief that everyone else is wrong.

    • messenger says:

      I offer my opinion for two reasons. First reason is I’m not absolutely sure of their reasoning, so in fairness to them I give this opinion; but the second reason is I don’t want to take a chance on the WT tracking me down and suing me at some future date for libel. Anyone may legally give an opinion.

      Ruthlee at this point I believe most WT responses to sexual child abuse is based on their bottom line dollar. They currently are in very costly situations on three continents because of their policies on sexual child abuse. WT has lost millions of dollars because of this, and what they’ve lost so far will probably pale in comparison to what they will have to pay in the future. Because of legal representation the WT knows this, and at this time they know there is no way to get around it. They’re attempting to maneuver the cheapest way out. But that way is subject to subjective opinion. Just one of the lawyers fighting them negotiated a 200 million dollar settlement from the Catholics when he was representing just 100 people in a class action sexual child abuse case. I read that he was also working with other lawyers and negotiated a 600 million settlement from Catholics in another case. Add those figures together and you’re on you’re way to a billion dollars. The WT is worth billions, but they can’t afford that kind of loss. WT isn’t nearly as wealthy as the Catholics.

      I believe that before they knew they would suffer all the law suits they handled cases in ways primarily to protect the image of their church. Actually that’s been one of their primary motives with practically everything they do, that and increasing membership. You could pretty much tell just by attending a kingdom hall. Half of being a Witness is image. The idea originates from the gb but it has filtered down to every Witness that isn’t to some degree a rebel. Christ was a rebel, and so is practically everyone on this site. It takes somewhat of a rebel to wake up the self-righteous, and that’s what the WT is, self righteous, or righteous over much. That’s why they have all the rules, just like the Jews had. And image for the righteous over much is a very important thing, very important!

  12. twistedsister69 says:

    We are living in a time when tax evaders often receive harsher sentences than child molesters, rapists, and in some cases, even murderers. Just Google Jeffrey Epstein. That sicko only served THIRTEEN MONTHS for running an UNDERAGE PROSTITUTION network. Of course, he was some kind of Wall Street big shot or something, with $$$ and connections, not to mention that many of his clients were personal friends and associates, and the “transactions” took place in his home, where he secretly filmed them, to use later in case of trouble, or for blackmail purposes. Allegedly, high-profile individuals such as Hollywood celebs, even a European prime minister, were among his clients. Who knows how many judges/prosecutors/politicians he captured on his “Candid Camera”? But I digress. My point is, putting $$ ahead of the safety, security, and normal development of the most vulnerable members of society, children, once again demonstrates that The Watchtower Society is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT from the “worldly” elements they themselves are so quick to condemn.

    • outandabout says:

      They are actually worse than ‘worldly’ corporations because everybody expects worldly corporations to make money while skating close to the edge of the law and those corporations know that we know that.

      The WT is different. They are abusing their position of trust and should go for a much bigger skate much like a policeman or judge would if caught doing wrong.

      We need to be able to trust those we put in authority and when that trust is broken, a message must be sent to anybody who is doing or contemplating doing any wrongdoing themselves.

      The WT have well and truly forfeited their right to exist in society for the wrong they have done to so many people for such a long time and then the denial when discovered and the blaming and the slander, tactics which have in the past worked for them, shows how arrogant and deluded they are and they’ll chew up and spit out whoever they have to in order to maintain their lunatic scam and they’ll produce a bottomless pit of money to do that while bleating to the hapless sheep from their brand new castle with no expense spared, about how humble and broke they are.

      Being deluded is no excuse for what they’ve done. We don’t give deranged murderers a break because they were deluded and just happened to be responsible for a few measly deaths.

      The backbones of these Cults are under pressure. They can’t survive in the daylight. They need secrecy and deception to survive and the internet has taken that away.

      Russia can see what this Cult is and has taken the chance to nip it in the bud.

      • twistedsister69 says:

        Agreed. Watchtower IS worse.

        • ruthlee says:

          All good points. The psychopathic thing is quite true. They target soft options (my parents) and guilt or fear and abuse the 2nd gen offspring.There is no compassion so discard a who are deemed useless. At least corps pay off and layoff wtower just toss in the trash hence why children are of no value.

  13. Doc Obvious says:

    This just in. I heard from Bethel that Governing Body member Anthony Morris III blames David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology, for the child abuse issue that Watchtower has. Let’s see if 2 religions with 2 legal departments handle this.

    • outandabout says:

      I guess what A.M. is trying to express, Doc, is that he’s gutted because the exposure of Scientology is shining the light on Cults and shunning and he see’s Miscavige as letting the side down by not containing the scandal and therefore putting everybody else’s scam at risk of exposure as well. Too late!

      The atmosphere down at The Cult Leaders Club must be pretty grim and frosty these days.

      I suppose they could give the invisible Jesus a call and see if they can get him to do something at least. The skiver has been here for what?….. 130 yrs? into his 1000 yr rule and has done absolutely nothing in that time. God must be really annoyed about that…..probably ranting on about ‘kid’s these days’, hippy’s, long hair, beards etc and top of that, no one has seen hair nor hide of him!

      Oh, hang on….Geoffrey Jackson said at the Royal Commission that he was going to “ask Jesus when he see’s him” when given an alternative piece of scripture to use in order to help with the child abuse problem they don’t have. Jackson got back to the Commission with a “Nah” fairly quickly, so I guess he had a word with Jesus after all.

      So I conclude that Jesus is not interested in helping abused children either and God just continues to sit idly by while Satan rolls his eyes and sighs at the exasperation of it all, rolls up his sleeves and just goes about fixing the problem.

      According to the Bible, God killed about 2,500,000 people to Satan’s 10. Actual accounts vary, but the picture is clear and all I can say is “thank God for Satan”!

    • messenger says:

      Ideally Morris III puts that message out publicly and Miscavige goes after him. If there is one group that will puuunish you more than WT it’s Scientology and Miscavige. If your friend has public documentation of that maybe he should email it to Miscavige.

      • anonymous No. 3418 says:

        It is scary what Scientologists do to the press. They antagonize people to the point where the members of the press start screaming at them. Plus, the Scientologists make up stuff and throw at people. Scientology is relentless when it comes to this.

      • joe dudley says:

        Scientology using ‘Fair Game’ on Anthony Morris III. That would be fun to see. Two religions blowing each other up with lawsuits and interrogation would be an awesome sight. Then, we can all watch the absolute obliteration of them both. Kind of like Spy vs. Spy in Mad magazine.

  14. messenger says:

    In California the WT and their elders have lost clergy-penitent privileges, when reports obtained in judicial committees, or from private confessions are written down and passed on for others to read. That’s been ruled on by a superior court and an appellate court. And unless those decisions were struck down by a supreme court, which I’m not aware of, elders have no clergy-penitent privilege. Because as we all know, the WT makes elders name the offenders and send in reports. I wonder if the elders know this.

    I believe in Australia and Britain mandatory reporting laws for clergy will come about due to their government commissions on sexual child abuse. Eventually the same will probably happen in the US. In the US there are already mandatory reporting laws, but in some states clergy is exempt. Under mandatory reporting laws the WT two witness rule wouldn’t mean anything. Under mandatory reporting a report is required when there is a suspicion of child abuse. There does not have to be proof. And the reporter that is required by law to report cannot be sued for reporting.

  15. quinganash says:

    Hey guys, got a question for you. A friend of mine has been reaching out to be an elder; however, I noticed that he is really being bullied by the elders, yet is under consideration for eldership as judged by their comments, and a desire to send him on shepherding calls etc. He is financially set, works as an attorney, but fellowships in a congregation of janitor-type elders. Wife is a stay-at-home regular pioneer. I get the sense that he is being bullied like crazy as a means for them to “test him as to fitness first”. Is this something that is typically done before bros are appointed? Are they doing this because they are jealous? Is it now organizational policy to maltreat a bro excessively in order to test humility, whether he can handle the dirt that only elders see, whether he will support things like the society’s child abuse policies, etc?

    • messenger says:

      Chances are there are a number of elders bullying him, and the more passive ones may or may not be aware of it. If they know about it they are just too weak to stand up to the bullies and stop it. In that case, as you said, at least some feel this brother should be appointed. He probably will be.

      My thinking is that the bullying occurs for personal reasons that are usually beyond the petty realm, and are elevated to the extremely petty reasons. It could be, and most likely is, some silly reason like this: I am an elder, and I always try to apply directions from the gb. As long as I’ve been in the Truth they have told us not to seek higher education. That direction goes all the way back to Russell. Yet this ministerial servant John didn’t apply that direction. He not only went to a university and got a BA, he also went to law school after that. In essence he SOLD OUT TO THE WORLD. He may have changed this rebellious belief, but I don’t know if he has, and even if he has he is reaping the materialistic benefits.

      The bullies might think like that, or there could be some other petty reason for their actions. BUT IF ANYONE OUT THERE KNOWS OF ANY DIRECTION FROM THE SOCIETY TO BULLY BROTHERS BEFORE APPOINTMENT THEN LET’S HEAR ABOUT IT.

    • messenger says:

      Chances are there are a number of elders bullying him, and the more passive ones may or may not be aware of it. If they know about it they are just too weak to stand up to the bullies and stop it. In that case, as you said, at least some feel this brother should be appointed. He probably will be.

      My thinking is that the bullying occurs for personal reasons that are usually beyond the petty realm, and are elevated to the extremely petty reasons. It could be, and most likely is, some silly reason like this: I am an elder, and I always try to apply directions from the gb. As long as I’ve been in the Truth they have told us not to seek higher education. That direction goes all the way back to Russell. Yet this ministerial servant John didn’t apply that direction. He not only went to a university and got a BA, he also went to law school after that. In essence he SOLD OUT TO THE WORLD. He may have changed this rebellious belief, but I don’t know if he has, and even if he has he is reaping the materialistic benefits.

      The bullies might think like that, or there could be some other petty reason for their actions. BUT IF ANYONE OUT THERE KNOWS OF ANY DIRECTION FROM THE SOCIETY TO BULLY BROTHERS BEFORE APPOINTMENT THEN LET’S HEAR ABOUT IT.

    • messenger says:

      Also, unless they said they’re considering appointing him, actually recommending him is more accurate, then that may not be the case. Some congregations pair up all ms with an elder and make shepherding calls. It lightens their work load. Unless they specifically stated they want to recommend him its hard to tell if that’s the case. But his wife being a pioneer will get the circuit overseer’s attention.

      • Ricardo says:

        Messenger, maybe it’s just a case that elders love to bully, that it has become a culture in the organization, and there may be elder envy due to this guy’s status, job and pioneering wife. However, if this brother knows how to kiss the backsides of the elders properly then he should be ‘in like Flynn.’

        • twistedsister69 says:

          Yes, WT, and all cults, are bully cultures. If you kiss enough asses and suck enough d*cks (and I don’t mean ducks, decks, or docks – that kinda narrows it down 😀 ), you get to rise to the top of the sludge heap and sh*t on everyone down below.

    • Eyes opened says:

      Bullying as a test to fitness…translation will we be able to manipulate, coerse and control him.

  16. quinganash says:

    Thanks for your comments. Still unclear whether this is now organizational policy as part of testing a brother as to fitness first.

  17. twistedsister69 says:

    @outandabout
    “I suppose they could give the invisible jesus a call”-LMAO
    Good one.
    Maybe the Scientologists could give the invisible “Thetans” a call, or ask the Giant Space Monster for advice. 😀

    • twistedsister69 says:

      As a side note, I recently read that Tom Cruise owns 5 – that’s right, FIVE – private jets. WTF does a soul (sorry, “thetan”) do with 5 private jets???
      Perhaps the Scientologists are attempting to build their own Air Force. 😀

  18. Doc Obvious says:

    First Amendment – Constitution of the United States of America 1789 (rev. 1992)

    Original: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    First Amendment – Constitution of the United States of America 1789 (rev. 2017)

    Revised: Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    How much better our lives would be with the revised version of the First Amendment.

  19. Ted says:

    Anyone waiting on Jehovah to sort things out will have a long
    and fruitless wait. Someone said “Nothing fails like prayer”,
    Mark Twain commented, “Before you pray for rain better check
    The weather forecast”.

    During the holocaust a rabbi prayed to God to save his people
    and annihilate the Nazis. The prayer was unheard, it didn’t save
    him from the gas chamber or prevent children from being thrown
    alive into the furnace. ( I remember a watchtower claiming all this
    had something to do with the Jews saying to Pilate “His blood be
    on our heads and on the heads of our children” ) shameful comment!

    The stock answer to Gods absence is, it would negate mans free will
    if God interfered. Yet the whole Bible is the story of Yahweh
    manipulating Jewish history.

    The problem under discussion is a human problem and only humans
    can resolve it. Inaction, waiting around for some invisible entity
    only exacerbates the situation, and prolongs victims misery.

    • outandabout says:

      Agreed, Ted. The bible, when read in it’s entirety, is the single biggest case for Atheism that exists.

      Religions are a confusing sham because they reflect exactly what the bible is.

      The bible, to me, is a an account of a few historical facts with the gaps filled in with fantasy, exaggeration and wishful thinking. An outdated attempt to make sense of why we are here. A good yarn, but most definitely not a blueprint for a successful society, in fact, quite the opposite.

      As you say, waiting for daddy to fix things exacerbates the situation.

      Anyone can make a prediction for the future of mankind and can see that one day there will be standing room only on earth and there will be trouble as a result. This type of thinking gives rise to movies like ‘Logan’s Run’, etc.

      It’s not a pretty picture but I’m not going to lie to myself to make it go away.

      • Ted says:

        outandabout, I’m sure you’re right about the Bible creating
        atheists, that’s if you really think about what you’re reading
        and being honest with yourself.

        Had I not been a JW I think I would still be a Catholic, taking
        it as a given that there was a God. But while some of the
        selected stuff the wt, concentrates on and the spin they put
        on it is appealing there were other parts of the Bible that to
        me were unacceptable, unreal, as you say fantasy.

        As far as Jehovah is concerned I’m an atheist, and if there is
        some other God, all I can say is, he’s presiding over a lot
        of misery, maybe not for everyone but for ever so many,
        and I have no idea what he wants from us. In his case I am
        agnostic.

        outandabout, I’m sure you’re right about the Bible creating
        atheists, that’s if you really think about what you’re reading
        and being honest with yourself.

        Had I not been a JW I think I would still be a Catholic, taking
        it as a given that there was a God. But while some of the
        selected stuff the wt, concentrates on and the spin they put
        on it is appealing there were other parts of the Bible that to
        me were unacceptable, unreal, as you say fantasy.

        As far as Jehovah is concerned I’m an atheist, and if there is
        some other God, all I can say is, he’s presiding over a lot
        of misery, maybe not for everyone but for ever so many,
        and I have no idea what he wants from us. In his case I am
        agnostic.

    • messenger says:

      Ted I’m not aware of Bible scriptures that direct mankind to sit around and wait for God to solve current problems. Can you share any of those, if you know them?

      • dee2 says:

        That’s exactly right Messenger.

        Which is why we don’t need to pray. God does not speak to persons and tells them what to do.

        We ourselves have to figure out how to deal with a situation. We ourselves have to figure out what we need to do to solve our problems.

        There is no point in praying since God does not reply and tells us what to do to solve a problem. We have to figure out the solution for ourselves.

      • dee2 says:

        Wait on Jehovah to offer divine intervention. Leave it in God’s hands and in His due time He will maneuver things to address the matter. Wonder where this idea came from?

        Lamentations 3:25:
        “Jehovah is good to them that wait for him, to the soul that seeks him.”

        Lamentations 3:26 Good it is that one should wait, even silently, for the salvation of Jehovah.

        Micah 7:2,7:
        As for me, it is for Jehovah that I shall keep on the lookout. I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation.”

        Psalm 71:14, 15:
        “As for me, I shall wait constantly, and I will add to all your praise. My own mouth will recount your righteousness, all day long your salvation.”

        Psalm 130:5-7:
        “For his word I have waited. My soul has waited for Jehovah more than watchmen for the morning, watching for the morning. Let Israel keep waiting for Jehovah”.

        Psalm 147:11:
        “Jehovah is finding pleasure . . . in those waiting for his loving-kindness.”

        Isaiah 40:29-31:
        “……..Yet those who wait on Jehovah will renew their strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles; They will run and will not faint; They will walk and will not become weary.”

        Psalm 33:20:
        “Our soul has waited for Jehovah: he is our help and our shield”.

        Psalm 37:7:
        “Rest in Jehovah, and wait patiently for him: do not fret yourself because of him who prospers in his way; because of the man who brings wicked devices to pass.”

        Other passages that encourage “waiting” for the Lord: Psalm 27:14; 37:9, 34; 130:5; Psalm 73.

      • dee2 says:

        If we shouldn’t sit around and wait for God to solve current problems then do we need God’s Kingdom to solve problems for us since we can do it ourselves?

        • dee2 says:

          ^^^……..since we should be doing it ourselves?

        • messenger says:

          Sorry dee2, I think you misinterpreted my question to Ted, probably because my thought was not clear enough for you. Ted had commented on people “waiting on Jehovah to straighten things out.” His statement and his subsequent comment implied to me that those “waiting on Jehovah” would take no action to solve their own problems. So when I asked him for scriptures that suggested mankind “SIT AROUND AND WAIT” I was asking him if he knew scriptures that not just taught to wait on God but taught that people should do that without attempting to solve their problems.

          I was already aware of scriptures that teach people to wait on Jehovah.
          The scripture you introduced from Isaiah 40 seems to support my point. The other scriptures you presented don’t seem to refute it.

          And my question, I think, implied I was requesting scriptural advice that should be followed by all Jehovah’s servants, and not advice, possibly delivered by a prophet, applying to people in an isolated Biblical event, like waiting on the Red Sea to part, or for God’s help from an invading force against ancient Jews.

          Thanks for your effort dee2. You’re a hard worker!

  20. JBob says:

    Some of the reasons Caroline outlined above for why a spouse stays silent with a molesting significant other also apply to why persons stay quiet and stick with a quirky belief system they may realize is riddled with faults. It’s a comfortable old shoe–many other churches have child abuse incidents in the past, now and future; going out and finding a new church is painful, even if you’re not JW. At an older testimony at a Witnesses Now For Jesus conference, one David Reed, noted the varied reasons for persons departing the Watchtower–disagree with administration but agree with beliefs, disagree with beliefs but were okay with discipline structure, thought discipline was too lenient and adherence lax, tired of the structure and regimen, etc. In most cases, it is when the pain of staying becomes greater than the fear of leaving for the unknown. Child abuse, if not affecting your immediate family circle, is one of those factors that regrettably some will not find painful enough for departing; when it impacts them directly–similar to the blood matters, career choices and military service–then it becomes a “make or break” factor for walking away.

    So, what I’m saying is I have lowered, lowest, expectation when it comes to Watchtower, Inc. Granted, apparently none of the leadership has the stones to unveil a 20,000 sq foot manor (just rings, suits and watches) for their private use, but apparently none of them has become as irritating (or garnered an arrest warrant) that the entire staff wants them shuttled off to some far off location–out of sight and out of hearing.

  21. Ted says:

    Hi messenger, thanks for your question. The problem I was
    referring to was the current one plaguing the wt org, namely
    child abuse, sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

    The waiting on Jehovah to fix things alluded to the get out of
    jail expression used by elders when stumped by a problem,
    and not to any scriptural statement.

    Scriptural references. I think there are several encouraging
    patience and waiting on divine manifestation. James 5:7-8,
    It seems some disciples were becoming discouraged waiting
    for Jesus promised presence and the scripture recommends
    endurance as the presence has drawn close. See also-
    2 Peter 3:4-9.

    Just to add a personal thought. As its 2000 years plus since
    those scriptures were written and there’s still no discernible
    Presence, I think it’s stretching patience to breaking point.
    Hope my reply is helpful . Best wishes, Ted.

    • dee2 says:

      Wait on Jehovah to offer divine intervention. Leave it in God’s hands and in His due time He will maneuver things to address the matter. Where did this idea come from?

      Lamentations 3:25:
      “Jehovah is good to them that wait for him, to the soul that seeks him.”

      Lamentations 3:26 Good it is that one should wait, even silently, for the salvation of Jehovah.

      Micah 7:2,7:
      As for me, it is for Jehovah that I shall keep on the lookout. I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation.”

      Psalm 71:14, 15:
      “As for me, I shall wait constantly, and I will add to all your praise. My own mouth will recount your righteousness, all day long your salvation.”

      Psalm 130:5-7:
      “For his word I have waited. My soul has waited for Jehovah more than watchmen for the morning, watching for the morning. Let Israel keep waiting for Jehovah”.

      Psalm 147:11:
      “Jehovah is finding pleasure . . . in those waiting for his loving-kindness.”

      Isaiah 40:29-31:
      “……..Yet those who wait on Jehovah will renew their strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles; They will run and will not faint; They will walk and will not become weary.”

      Psalm 33:20:
      “Our soul has waited for Jehovah: he is our help and our shield”.

      Psalm 37:7:
      “Rest in Jehovah, and wait patiently for him: do not fret yourself because of him who prospers in his way; because of the man who brings wicked devices to pass.”

      Other passages that encourage “waiting” for the Lord: Psalm 27:14; 37:9, 34; 130:5; Psalm 73.

  22. Sharon Christensen says:

    Robyn…your story and mine so similar…yeah my family calls me crazy, and demon possessed…if that is what it takes to uncover the filth etc., that is covered over by this Org., that presents itself as “wht washed graves”…and yet…is this info available in Cree and Ojibway? It should be…personally…I think…cremation best! ;). I like how Ruth many times puts it…Cheers…I say…bottomz zup! Good day to all…and on with the smokin out…and chokin up….:)….Ever poke and ant hill….? Uh a Walkhill…Is that true about at warz between Bros. and Scientology fellow…Good one! Perfect…I like it! Not alot…No I don’t like it! Actually…I do! 😉

  23. twistedsister69 says:

    @Edo
    @Ren
    Sorry, it was something I caught part-way thru on TV one night. Not sure if I ever even saw the title. But that item really stuck in my mind. It may have been one of those PBS documentaries. You may want to check out PBS.org. Not even sure when it was made. All I can say is I saw it maybe 8 – 12 months ago. Sorry I can’t give u more info. 🙁

  24. Sharon Christensen says:

    Why is it after you poke the comment thing you think of something else…Anyways I admire Leah Remini…she said that with going public…if all that info. she presents with the help of others who have left Scientology…helps even just one person…it is worth all the suffering etc. one must endure…my thoughts exactly! I may not be a beautiful movie star like her…but with Jw.org…I have been thru hell…so looking like…Hell, feeling like Hell…and well…smelling of “sump gass” 😉 is quite fitting! I think even John Cedars…has a better” hairy do”than me most times! What is most important…the fake look good…or the shredded t shirt and messy hair do…not sure about the tight pants…but an awesome job at smokin out the hornets nest…been bit recently myself because of…:). I look at my daughter and think…she is free…never has she had to live the life that me and my siblings had to…yet she knows about Jehovah and loves to look at and be in His creation…ask her who is Tony Morris the third…she says whoooo? Oh I do not know Mom…ask the “google gods”! She will do good in life! Never molested, like her mother at a young age…never married to a JW, ending up in having to tk refuge in Satans …..shelter for her safety…never being stalked by JW.ogres in a effort to pin dirt on her so as to df her…having counsellors telling them to leave her alone or News Papers will have her story on their frnt cover….her having to obtain restraining orders against the very ones who she thought would protect her once she told them of her situation….Satans…so called world has been a safety for me…protection against the JWorg cuz their concern…do not uncover our…”dirty little secrets”…..go away…or “shut up” your soooo annoying…Like King Julian told Maud in Madagascar movie! I think of what I went thru…what my sister-n-law has gone thru…and her parents turn against her and her family….she was molested..”.in hse”..,, and laugh of all laughs…they have a booth set up at a summer fair…with the bk cart and big sign…ask us about…Happy family life…how to!!! Choke! Also my friend, what she went thru…and on and on…if only what a person does can help save the life of one more child…one more person..all the name calling and ridicule, threats is well worth it.. Ratbag…( I prefer to be viewed as a pack rat) ;). Proud to be a viewed as an Apostate!

  25. twistedsister69 says:

    I’m glad folks are intrigued by my reference to corporations and their behavior. But just to make a coupla things clear, I don’t want anyone thinking I’m some crazy anti-corporate anarchist living in a shack in the woods like the Unabomber. I’m not anti-corporation or anti-capitalism, per se. In fact, I would be the first to admit that I’m just as much a red-blooded capitalist as anyone. I mean, what’s the alternative? Communism? Reverting to the bartering system? “I’ll give you 3 pigs and a chicken for that Honda Civic.” 😀 Fact is, commerce makes the world go ’round. Without commerce, we would all be walking around naked, eating roots and berries, and living in caves. lol Frankly (and I’m sure many would disagree), I believe greed is quite normal in humans. But…and this is a very big but…there’s greed, and then there’s GREED. Think of it like sex. Sex is normal, even healthy. And it’s certainly a powerful urge. Having sex is OK. But that does NOT mean rape is OK, no matter how strong the urge.
    It all boils down to self-control. That’s what separates us from the animals, i.e. animals have more self-control than we do. 😀 And as a human being myself, it’s starting to get a little embarrassing.

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  27. Meredith J says:

    This video is excellent. So many times I have wanted to explain the situation to people and they have no idea what you are talking about, including Witnesses. This explains it so simply and with a deep impact.