Charity Commission report slams Jehovah’s Witnesses.

A fresh storm has broken out Watchtower’s ongoing worldwide child abuse scandal, albeit one that has been brewing on the horizon for a while. Regular readers of JW Survey will be aware that the UK Charity Commission has been investigating the New Moston congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses for the past few years, due to concerns over their handling of child abuse allegations.

If you’re not familiar with the story you can read our coverage here, here, here, here, and here. Nonetheless, here is a quick recap:

In the United Kingdom, both the individual congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses and the larger umbrella Watchtower Organisation are registered as charities, thus entitling them to tax breaks and other privileges most organisations do not receive. However, this also brings them under the supervision of the Charity Commission, whose role it is to ensure that all registered charities are working for the public benefit.

Over the last few years, the Commission has been investigating reports that the New Moston Congregation responded to child sex abuses, committed by JW Elder and charity trustee Johnathan Rose, in a way that did not meet the required standard.

Spefically, they have been investigating reports that abuse survivors had been forced to confront Rose in a religious court, termed a Judicial Committee by the Witnesses. During this court, it was alleged that Rose had been allowed to interrogate the survivors and forced them to recount graphic details of his assaults upon them. It was also alleged that some of the other congregation Elders asked the survivors if they did anything to provoke Rose into assaulting them.

After a number of years of investigation, the Commission have finally released their full report. It can be read here and, as per usual for an investigation into the procedures used by Jehovah’s Witnesses for dealing with child abuse, it makes for pretty damning reading.

How New Moston failed abuse survivors

Jonathan Rose: JW Elder and convicted child molester

To summerise, the Commission finds that the New Moston elders did indeed allow Johnathan Rose, who at the time of the Judicial Committee was a convicted child molester, to interrogate his past victims in a religious tribunal.

The event was hugely traumatic for the victims, as Rose was not prevented from asking graphic questions about his assaults upon them. One victim states that she was not even told Rose would be present at the event; rather she was under the impression that the elders wanted to see her in order to apologise for failing her. I cannot even begin to fathom how she must have felt entering that room, being confronted by her attacker, and then subjected to interrogation by him.

However, it gets worse.

The Commission report finds not only that the event happened as alleged, and that it was utterly inappropriate, it also finds a litany of other problems surrounding the incident, including but not limited to;

  • Conflict of interest.
    • The elders involved in the investigation of Rose were also friends and family relations of his (including his father), thus generating an obvious conflict of interest. This is actually very common problem whenever cases of abuse amongst the Jehovah’s Witnesses come to light. Because the Witnesses occupy a very insular and close knit community, those investigating an alleged abuser can often be close friends of that abuser. This issue also arose during the Australian Royal Commission (ARC) Case Study 29, which found similar conflicts of interest when Elders were investigating men who where their close friends, leading survivors to suspect that this conflict of interest had produced a lenient verdict for the offender.
  • Incomplete Record Keeping
    • The New Moston congregation claimed that steps were taken to remove Rose from being an elder and trustee, and steps taken to safeguard the congregation. However, no written records of these steps exist.
  • Safeguarding steps not enforced.
    • New Moston and Watchtower claim that Rose was prevented from undertaking activities that may have posed a risk to the congregation. However, the Commission found that Rose was allowed to undertake activities which breeched safeguarding, including administrative duties at a convention, hosting an adult who was attending a Watchtower training course, and assisting in the training course itself.
  • Elders failing to understand the nature of child abuse.
    • The report finds that the elders dismissed one accusation of abuse because the victim was 15, and Rose was 19 at the time. They incorrectly viewed it as “a matter between two teenagers.” This was despite the victim clearly viewing the incident as child sex abuse. The report also found that the elders denigrated the credibility of the victim in order to exonerate Rose, despite her having an unspotted disciplinary record in the congregation.
  • Previous accusations against Rose ignored because of the “Two Witness Rule.
    • This has become one of the most controversial and infamous aspects of Watchtower’s handling of abuse accusations. The Witnesses apply a literal and unbending interpretation of the Biblical command at Deuteronomy 19:15 which reads “No single witness may convict another for any error or any sin that he may commit. On the testimony of two witnesses or on the testimony of three witnesses the matter should be established.” Therefore, their official policy is that unless there are two witnesses to an attack, or two separate attacks each having a different single witness, they will essentially find the accused innocent. The obvious problem here is that child molesters rarely attack their victims in full view of witnesses. The ARC uncovered evidence in official Watchtower records showing that, as a result of this policy, Watchtower Australia had failed to report a staggering 1006 alleged child molesters to the police since the 1950’s. Rose is another example of how this rule allows molesters to operative with impunity; congregation records show that precious accusations against him had been dismissed for lack of two witnesses.

Sounds bad? We’re still not done.

Because the failings of New Moston, and of the Watchtower organisation do not stop simply with the way they handled Rose. They extend to the way they handled the Charity Commission enquiry.

Put simply, they tried to kill it stone dead.

Theocratic Warfare

Branch committee coordinator Terrence O’Brien was accused of intentionally trying to mislead the ARC.

We have covered this issue before, but when it became clear that the Charity Commission was gravely concerned with the accusations made about New Moston and Watchtower and intended to investigate, both charities essentially went to war with the Commission in court.

Legal challenges were mounted by Watchtower and New Moston to try and halt the investigation in its tracks, with the charities claiming the Commission was overstepping its bounds by trying to investigate them.

The idea that the Charity regulator should not take an interest in accusations of sex abuse mishandling by a  charity is absurd but this was essentially what Watchtower was arguing.

The case dragged on in litigation for a long time; a judge would rule against the Witnesses, and the Witnesses would promptly appeal to a higher court. At the time, the Commission described the Witnesses rabid determination to avoid scrutiny as “unprecedented.”

Finally, the Royal Courts of Justice in London struck down the challenge once and for all, and the investigation resumed.

Yet even then, the Witnesses did not fully comply.

The Commission found that New Moston deliberately failed to disclose certain allegations against Rose to the Commission when asked, and when the Commission later discovered them, New Moston tied to hand wave them away as being a different type of sex assault.

Again, this is nothing new. During the landmark Royal Commission hearings, Watchtower Australia were caught red-handed telling outright lies in order to try and keep their leader Geoffrey Jackson from having to testify.

Hardly surprising then that the official Charity Commission inquiry reads;

The inquiry found that the trustees of the charity did not engage openly and candidly with the Commission as the charity regulator.

It is essential to revisit something at this point; New Moston congregation was not acting of its own initiative. The JW organisation is highly centralised and authoritarian. This is vital to remember. Once cannot separate a congregation from Watchtower. Watchtower does not allow a congregation to call its own shots once a matter like this goes before the Commission.

In short, the Watchtower organisation;

  • Tried to kill the investigation in the courts.
  • Failed to fully co-operate with the investigation.
  • Knowingly failed to disclose relevant information to the investigation.

Thus, New Moston has become a symbol of the failure of Watchtower to effectively address the issue of child abuse inside its congregations, and also of its defiant refusal to allow its conduct to be investigated by the proper authorities. In addition, the Charity Commission has opened a second investigation that will look into the wider issue of how Watchtower deals with child abuse, citing concerns over policies such as the Two Witness Rule. Watchtower has also tried and failed to kill this investigation in court.

This issue is far from over.

A media firestorm

Understandably, the UK media has picked up this story and given it major exposure.

Articles have appeared in established national newspapers such as the Times, the Telegraph and The Guardian. Additionally, the BBC, the flagship national broadcaster in the UK, has run an article on its website, as well as devoting segments to the issue its national radio religious show “Sunday” and a segment on its national news program discussing the issue.

JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans gives his analysis on the news segment here.

What has been Watchtower’s response to this extensive, damning report, and the subsequent headlines generated in the media? An apology? An admission of error? A pledge to learn from its mistakes?

No.

Watchtower has simply rolled out the same, cookie cutter statement that it uses every time that its failings are exposed for the world to see; that they “abhor child abuse” and have “robust safeguarding policies”. In other words “We’re perfect, we’re not listening to you, nothing to see here, move along.”

This is simply unacceptable. These events were not the result of one or two “rogue” elders ignoring Watchtower guidelines. This entire scandal came about as a direct result of official Watchtower policy, much of which is still in force today.

This not an issue the Watchtower organisation can ignore if it hopes to maintain its credibility. Nor is this an issue that Governments can ignore if they wish to fully protect their citizens from child molesters, or get justice for abuse survivors. Yet worryingly, it appears that the UK government’s Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) has apparently no plans to include Watchtower in its investigation.

We will cover the need for IICSA to urgently revisit this decision in the next article.

Stay tuned.

Because we’re going to need your help.

Follow me on twitter @covertfade

Follow JW Survey on twitter @jwsurveyorg

Bookmark the permalink.

68 Responses to Charity Commission report slams Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  1. Chiafade says:

    Maintain it’s credibility? As far as I’m concerned there’s no credibility left.

  2. Interested in what's going on says:

    A well written article and was very impressed with Lloyds video too. Nothing apostate in the slightest- just facts. I thought got that the BBC coverage too was very informative.
    I have written this to the IICSA :-

    To whoever it may concern,
    I am writing about my concern about the Jehovahs Witnesses and their handling of allegations of child abuse. I am a therapist and have come across numerous cases where members have been treated very unfairly in my opinion when they have bought child abuse to the attention of the elders. Children have been made to sit in the same room as their abuser to explain what went on and because of a “two witness rule” which basically means unless there are two witnesses to an incident then nothing is done about it – then “leave the matter with Jehovah” quote from their elders book! This being the case there are many victims who have never had the justice they deserve.
    They amount of anguish that this produces in the victim – not to have a voice- has enormous repercussions in their life.
    Recently an investigation from the Charity Commission has been published showing how not only are the Jehovahs Witnesses extremely uncooperative, even taking the Commission to a high court to try to stop their investigation, but the findings are very damning towards the religions practices and procedures with regard to child abuse.The Australian Royal Commission have come to the same conclusion.
    I have had clients who have had historic child sex abuse within the Jehovahs Witnesses who not only were told not to go to the police because it would “bring disrespect upon Jehovahs name”, but because of the “two witnesses rule” nothing has ever been done about it. If they choose to take it to the police they are often ostracised by the elders and congregation and if they choose to leave the religion because of feeling let down by the policies and procedures they are shunned!
    All of this I have witnessed first hand and I feel it is not only unacceptable but immoral in all senses.
    I am appealing to you to investigate the Jehovahs Witnesses please, to put a stop to this archaic way of treatment of innocent victims.
    Thank you for reading this.
    Regards

    • Gwen Little says:

      On behalf of everyone who has been hurt by this. Thank you for taking an interest. The momentum of change moves faster when outsiders with understanding & empathy speak up as well. My therapist was very supportive & understanding of the damaging dynamics as well. It is immensely healing when you feel you’ve been heard & validated.

  3. T Law says:

    I too have written to IICSA

    Dear Investigatory body,

    After watching the BBC news and looking a little bit deeper into the powers of the IICSA body surrounding the above corporation, firstly may I grant you Gods speed in getting to the Bottom of this Cult.

    Firstly even though i was a member of this organisation since birth up and until aged 27 (getting reinstated in order to avoid shunning practice, never going back, now aged 43), I was never abused by the organisation. I woke up from this cult approximately six months ago, spiritually, emotionally and mentally and have found my freedom…after nearly 20 years. You might not understand how I can say this if I never went back from aged 27…but you would have to understand the workings of the organisation and the mind control used whilst being a member and how it affects you even if you leave.

    Now back to my reason for contacting you. I am well averse as to the events in Australia, where a tribunal was held into many organisations and that of WBTS to uncover the truth of how the organisation by rules and procedures in the use of the ‘two witness rule’ was utilised in the internal investigation cases of Child Abuse.
    Within Australia it is now common knowledge publicly, of what these procedures and policies are – thus ultimately safeguarding Children not yet attached to the organisation by means of recruiting into the organisation. In short the Public in Australia KNOW that this cult is dangerous! Thus the Australian government without banning the organisation have given the public the knowledge of how they control their members and the serious rampant child abuse issue that existed.

    And appalled that your investigation in my view will only scratch the surface of this ‘dangerous’ organisation, and in particular the illicit cover up of Child Abuse.

    I do not wish to ramble on in this email as I sincerely wish you every success in your line of enquiry. However in order for this to be effective in the protection of the wider public, this must be a PUBLIC Enquiry with substantial powers to ensure that the Governing Body and the command structure, from the Governing Body>Branch Level>Elders are cross examined for their part in the complicit nature of the cover up.

    I attach a letter which has is being circulated within the community, which clearly shows that the Organisation as a whole was guilty going back to 2007 when the first allegations within Australia first arose in the willful and deliberate destruction of child rape documents and the letter itself!
    But, as you can see, the cover up goes back 12 years and ordered/sanctioned from the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses themselves!

    We must have a public hearing in order to ensure that the wider public are given the same protection through knowledge of the procedures of this Organisation here in the UK!

    Please.

    • Angie Carlotta says:

      thank you for ur help. I know exactly what you mean as i myself didnt practice but was still mind controlled all these years until Jan 2017. I went into a complete shock when I awoken… got very sick, vomiting, started having tremors and still do…ect.
      Now I have been shunned by my whole family, friends etc for walking away. I then had a complete nervous breakdown.
      Very few doctors and therapist understand and are unable to help.
      A

      • Sharon Christensen says:

        I know exactly how you feel ….I have gone thru the same feelings and treatment….This orgy is worse than any other…claiming they are from God…if this is what God allows to happen in His Org,, then count me into being an Athiest….any who wish to dispute this …put it in your HOLY drains and shove it! Thank u Covert and all who keep us in the know as to the happenings and goings on. The orgy does it this way to intimidate any who have a case against them…not easy to confront ones accuser with these pompus elders, looking down their” Pharisuitical” noses at you as if you are the guilty one and you having to explain a-z as to what was done to you…they no dbt likey get a buzz on the fuzz when they hear all..They are preverted and disgusting liars, evil to the core. Stick that in their…hate speech accusation…there are good reasons for being hated by anyone.

      • Judith W says:

        Hi Angie.

        My husband was just looking through the comments related to this post and was moved to read out your comment to me. What pain you have been going through and no doubt still are! We feel your pain. We ourselves were extremely active in the organisation right up until July 2015 when I stumbled over a link to the Candace Conti case which pretty much ‘blew my mind’. I understand the feelings that these shocking revelations evoke. It really is like the universe is falling apart. To help me through the shock and to share the good things that I discovered through my bible reading after leaving, I made a website http://www.lovetruth.com.au

        I hope that some of the thoughts there will give you comfort. Please feel free to make contact if you’d like to talk. You are in my thoughts and prayers. With love, Judith

  4. Meredith J says:

    Thanks Lloyd. Good work. Great that the BBC have taken up the story. Let us hope other media outlets take it up and follow it through.

  5. Concerned Anonymous says:

    How do we get the IICSA to include the Watchtower in its investigation? What can we do to help?

    • Interested in what's going on says:

      They have an email on their website to write to them. Apeal to them about your concerns and ask them to look into the policies and procedures of the JWs.

  6. Jeff says:

    Scumbag cult…

  7. John Walsh says:

    They are almost untouchable as ultimately the churches almost effortlessly do a lot of the hard work for the governments, of plying the minds of there members so that they are dumbed down and easily influenced through indoctrination, propaganda, emotionalism and fear.
    Governments and churches work together to control the people [sheeple] where ever possible.

    Why do we think charities were set up in the first place? Clearly for the churches, and the rich originally for tax purposes, and now you see every man and his dog wanting there own charity.
    Secondary purpose is to look like hero’s doing charitable works when it suits them, by handing out the charity of truly charitable but unknown, and silent givers.

  8. Ruthlee says:

    I too wrote a short email after watching Lloyds utube. Every little bit makes a difference. Brick by brick by brick. Cheers all Ruthlee

  9. JBob says:

    I watched the Branch Committee Coordinator’s testimony and was also appalled at seeming density at realizing or recognizing what was being asked, then it also dawned he understood, he was “stonewalling” (USA, “delay or block (a request, process, or person) by refusing to answer questions or by giving evasive replies, especially in politics”). If I block this guy with diversion enough, he’ll go away. This is the tactic being used in the USA as well. Rather than face the issue head-on, the male-dominated hierarchy (or anarchy) seems to believe all these allegations are the trumped-up (nope, it’s been a term for years before…) mechinations of a few vendetta-driven females or a vast conspiracy to undermine the credibility of the organization. Which brings us to the phrase used “maintain its credibility”.

    Clearly the author of this article wanted to highlight the lack of competence in leadership, but also has a “sympathetic” spot and hope that the organization can be reformed, remediated, patched, fixed, and reconciled. Let’s face fact, credibility bit the dust in 1874, 1888, 1914, 1919, 1925, 1947, 1967, and 1975. It also bit the dust when the organization was FOR participation in combat, then suddenly it was not; it also died when the organization was for flag waving patriotism, then suddenly it was not. It again bit the dust when it distanced itself from its “light-bearer” Russell then when it attempted to prop itself up on prophetic-fulfillment using Russell and a score of amazing coincidences to prove it was “the chosen vessel”.

    If the revelation that this organization is as corrupt as any other man-made group still leaves someone hoping to hang-on to some “credibility,” I feel horrendously sad for them because their rude-awakening is yet to come.

    • Big B says:

      Firstly, another informative article on the continuing saga of the tyrannical, distopian cult know as Jehovah’s Witnesses and their perpetually stupid and stubborn adherence to “their” Biblical interpretations of “Holy” (?) Scripture. Great summation, Covert Fade!

      Poor little children; poor stupid parents, thrown to the pedophile protecting governing body “wolves” the so called protectors of the organization and their Watchtower Policy in addition to their cowardly elder lackeys that won’t or can’t stand-up to the nonsense because of the FEAR of losing their precious non-paid positions. Truly it is Jesus who said at Matt. 19:14; “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven”. And boy oh boy have they suffered literally and unfortunately they will continue to suffer the depredations of this maniacal, Millerite cult posing as Christianity.

      “If the revelation that this organization is as corrupt as any other man-made group still leaves someone hoping to hang-on to some “credibility,” I feel horrendously sad for them because their rude-awakening is yet to come”.

      I concur with your thoughts, JBob. Even now, as the assemblies have already started, the Governing Body are still trying to distance themselves from their 42 year fiasco of Freddy Franz’s 6000 years of human/Biblical history “Armageddon is a commin'” nonsense. They have, truly lost all credibility with most if not all ‘worldly’ people which has manifested itself in declining numbers of baptisms. The leaving of the younger ones from this distopia and also the growth of “apostate” (by whose definition?) web sites such as this does not bode well for the future of this cockamamie cult.

  10. Bad Penny says:

    COVERT FADE –
    Slightly off topic, but there was also coverage on Victoria Derbyshire’s morning TV programme on BBC 25th July on shunning within JWs. It seems nobody noticed this one. Let’s hope they keep up the pressure as more and more people become aware of the negative aspects of JWDom.

  11. chantal says:

    What can we do to help?

  12. Devin W says:

    I’m on here to comment about the allegations againsts Jehovah’s people. First and foremost, most witnesses weren’t born into the religion. Thus, many of the perpetrators in the past may have suffered abuse themselves as children. (I’m not justifying their acts, just staring facts). Which is that if you have been abused as a child, you are likely to abuse. That being said. 1 in 5 children will be abused.( I stated this fact a while ago and posted the facts). If these men did commit a deceitful act. What these worldly governments will do aren’t comparable to loosing everlasting life. Everyone on here knows that the society has limited knowledge of what may go on in a certain congregation as a certain time. For them to actually say to each individual ” We now you did that!” Would be impossible. In todays world, it is not black and white. If I’m a member in the congregation and someone accuses me of a wrong doing. ( wether I did it or not) is hard to prove. I know of one very publicised case, where the victim was 15 and dating a 18 year old ( whom the elders told her to stay away from). Then claimed rape. Which, in the news you would have thought she really was raped. When it was consensual sex and her parents found out. Then she lied. So, who does the society take sides with? If that’s the case they would literally have to follow everyone. I will admit the society has been put in a compromising position. They have always told parents to respect and bring their children up the right way. Unfortunately, they are handcuffed when wolves sneak into the congregation. We’ll triple the amount and say their are 5000 people who have molested in the past 50 years. Add up how many witnesses have came through the congregations . Your talking 10’s of millions. Still a fraction of societies 1 in 5 will be molested. Then ask yourself, how many of those people are still witnesses. My guess us the % is extremely low. ( People who lie, cheat, steal, commit fornication..ect.Usually leave on their own). I’ve seen so many witnesses leave , so , you can’t tell me that’s not true. They were all leading double lives, I’d pretty much bet the farm on that. Unfortunately, you will ignore the 1 in 5 in the world that are molested and concentrate on the 1 in a 100 in the congregation. I’ve been to 4 halls. I know of 1 instance that a elder was having a affair with a 16 year old. He was caught. Disfellowshipped. The family was approached and asked if they wanted to press charges. I went to the assembly this year and the society has even strengthened their position. ( Not that I haven’t heard it in a 100 talks in my lifetime already). Ironically, you wouldn’t even know Jehovah’s name if it wasn’t for the governing body. The Russian government recently added the nwt to the books of ” extremism “. Why? Because it has Jehovah’s name in it.

    • Shibboleth says:

      Just your opinion obviously…I personally know a very close friend that was sexually abused by 3 different “brothers” in 3 different congregations, who were born ins AND those men are STILL part of this org! So your point does not hold water dear sir!

    • Shibboleth says:

      Wait…you wouldn’t know Jehovah’s name if it were not for a 12th century Catholic monk who inserted the vowels A from Adoni’ and E from Elohim to the Tetragrammaton while he was transcribing the Bible, hence YAWEH, or Jehovah came out of that. Looks like a little research is needed.

    • Sharon Christensen says:

      Born in and yeah….wake up ….smell the …Hello….duh???? What kinda blinders and excuses do these people need…keep propin up that nice wht washed tomb stone… cuz yeah…when the wrecking bawl starts to swing…I suggest keepin and eye on where it will wind up…good grief!

  13. Caroline says:

    Devin, where do you get that most Witnesses weren’t born in? From my experience with many congregations and circuits since the 1960’s, it seems to me that most Witnesses were born in. Are you implying that born-in’s don’t molest like “worldly” people who sneak into the congregations?

    If worldly people sneak into the congregations and molest children, why should they be exempt from punishment because they had been molested as a child?

    Everyone understands the 2 witness rule. Nobody should be convicted simply on the basis on only one person’s testimony. The point is that it should still be reported to the proper authorities so that they can sort it out and decide if it was really molestation or rape. It should not be up the a local body of elders to make that decision when there are not 2 witnesses. One person would be telling the truth and the other lying wouldn’t they? Since there is nobody to prove it one way or the other, the proper thing to do is to let the authorities decide, don’t you agree?

    The problem is that within the Watchtower Organization, most people who can’t “prove” the molestation or rape by somebody in the congregation, first go to the elders to see what to do and then the elders will call the Watchtower to have their lawyers how to proceed.

    The worst thing a victim can do is to not to the police right away. The parents would probably want to confront the molester or rapist or go to the elders and then the molester can get rid of any evidence they might have had and a rape victim needs to report it right away as the semen is the 2nd witness.

    In the case of molestation and rape within the home, that also needs to be reported to the proper authorities and not to the elders. The elders have no business getting involved in things like that and have no business discouraging any alleged victim or the victim’s family by telling them that if the allegations are not true and even if they are true that getting the authorities involved will bring reproach on Jehovah and of course Jehovah had nothing to do with it and does not deserve to have his good name reproached. That will discourage the victim and the family from reporting the molestation or rape.

    The elders may listen to the rapist or the molester and decide that the rapist or molester is repentant and not disfellowship that person and the victim will have to attend meetings where that person is present and being welcomed with open arms and the victim will be the one shunned because they brought up the allegations.

    The problems are so complex. Much more complex than what you are saying in your comment.

    • Devin W says:

      No where sid I say that anyone caught shouldn’t be punished. When I came in the truth, 75% of the congregations were people that were not previously witnesses. Including, almost every person I was friends with at 23 years old. ( That’s when I came in. Many had come from terrible upbringings.) The ones who had ” grown up” in the truth all left at around 15 – 19. I watched them fall away as the years went by. Maybe , it’s because I lived in a big city. Still, most of the people I know that didn’t leave and are my age, weren’t born witnesses. As I mentioned, I knew of that one case where the elder was disfellowshipped for having a relationship with a 16 year old. In which the parents were approached and asked if they wanted to press charges. Evidently, certain areas have more problems than others. I remember a C.O giving a talk back in the 90’s. He said he came from a picture perfect rural community. Almost everyone who had came into the halls there were previously molested. He said it had gone on for generations. He mentioned that they had to constantly give talks and meet with the elders to prevent abuse carrying over to the congregation. He said 90% of the congregation had been abused before they came in the truth.( the congregations were relatively new because they were formed my missionaries). So, do you think when you have all them people coming in quickly, most who have lived with years of abuse, how do you get those people to not go back? Even if your 90% successfull, the 10% are going to be the ones that people judge the congregations on. I was in the world and I know so many kids that were abused. Many comitted suicide. 2 of my best friends killed themselves. One at 17, the other at 38. Two of the girls that lived across from my house, who were also my friends growing up. Their father sexually abused all 3 kids. The son snapped one day and killed the father and 2 sisters. One of my best friends that I hung around with when I was 16-21, told my sister his father abused him. I now look in the past and can actually go through most of my friends and realize why certain kids acted certain ways. I think you know the answer to that. Like I said. 1 in 5 kids will be abused. Your % in the world are much higher than in the truth. Does is happen in the truth ? Yes. Do you think Jehovah isn’t going to ” judge men according to their deeds” . The governing body can only do so much. The point I was making about Jehovah’s name. In Russia they have numerous religions. Who is the only religion that doesn’t believe in a triune diety and preaches Jehovah’s kingdom? Only one. The ” extremist” religion. Up there with Isis and Al Quedia. Thankfully, people can cling to their true churches that have shed 100 million lives over the past century. How many lives have Jehovah’s people killed. Hmmmm. I’m sure the people of the world are petrified when a witness moves in next door. Especially with those JW thugs selling herion to your kids. Forming gangs, running guns, prostitution. Walking down your streets at 2.00 a.m in a drunken stuper, swearing , breaking into cars. Raping women. Fortunately, I don’t have them living next to me. So, I do have to lock my doors. You should start a website for such people like them. I say , go to Chicago and break up them gangs. Protest in Venezuela, Help feed the 20 million that are on the verge of starvation in Africa. Head down to Mexico, Ecuador, Salvador. Protect them people from those Christian drug cartels. I could go on and on. But, the main thing is those 1% of witnesses that have done wrong. Better to squash the 99% righteous with that 1%. Remember to do that in Chicago. Make sure you bring a pencil so you can get those gang members names and publish them all over the internet. Oh wait. Wouldn’t want to do that. They actually might kill you.

      • Angie Carlotta says:

        Maybe if the elders didnt act like they have some education in therapy and let the experts handle it and the judicial system handle it it wouldnt continue to keep happening generation to generation. Obviously this rel. appeals to vulnerable lost ppl, kind of explains why so many u knew were being molested or being the molester. Wow.
        And yes, 10s if thousands have died at the hands of Wittnesses due to thier ridiculous blood policy that keeps changing

      • Interested in what's going on says:

        I know there are many good people in the religion as there are in lots of religions. But if you have corruption from the leaders when they are making laws on how to deal with things that happen (like from your 1%) then the religion as a whole is not functioning from the law of love but from a governing body who try to wriggle out of questions and lie through their back teeth to cover up. Just look st the Australia Commission videos – I was gob smacked to see a governing body member lying!
        As the scripture says a bad apple can make the whole barrel go bad and this is what I see. They are all tainted because of leadership problems.

      • Caroline says:

        Devin, have you watched the hearings at the Australia Royal Commission? They are hours long but well worth your time to watch them. You will learn a lot about how the elders covered up over 1,000 pedophiles and cases of molestation in the congregations so that it would not make the organization look bad. The elders told the truth most of the time but were very evasive but Geoffrey Jackson out and out lied under oath.

        There is no excuse for letting somebody in the congregation abuse and molest their own children but the Witness religion does that over and over again to protect the reputation of the religion.

        The Witness religion is much more concerned about their reputation than they are the safety of the children within it.

        It doesn’t matter how many people came in from the world and are Witnesses now. What is important is to listen to the children. If the parents are intimidated by the elders to keep quiet when it comes to the children being molested then that means that the reputation of the religion is more important than the children’s welfare.

        It also doesn’t matter how many children do not follow the Witness religion. Out of the 30 kids in our congregation that I knew who grew up with my children, I know of only 2 who stuck with the religion and quite a few of those kids even went to Bethel and left.

        • Big B says:

          @ Caroline:

          I was wondering when a Jehovah’s Witness apologist would show up and ” speak of the Devil who should appear” …. Devin! Another cult follower who is nothing but a Watchtower troll who will defend his foolish beliefs and equally foolish decisions made by the so called faithful and discreet slave who are truly todays modern day mental midgets of Biblical thought and doctrine.

          Devin, and others like him, have to come here to “apostate” web sites to expressly themselves as Jw.org has no place to leave comments. Why is that? For the same reason they removed the
          “Questions from Readers” from the Watchtower magazine. They (your faithful and discreet slave) don’t give a happy damn about you or your concerns. Their ‘holier than thou’ attitude of arrogance was made quite clear at the ARC hearings. No Christian humility there, not so much as any interest to even look at their failed policies. What you have is answers that can’t be questioned not questions that can’t be answered. Is that what kind of organization that you support?

          Answerable to no one, a self elected, self indulgent, self righteous bunch of hypocrites, hell bent on working you to death advancing their self proclaimed message of doom and gloom on YOUR nickel! Wow, sure sounds like the Evil slave class to me. But what do l know? I was only involved with this “organization” since 1957 so I don’t have much insight into the workings of this dystopian, dancing Panda paradise earth, cloud cuckoo-shime, cockamamie cult. Only a little, yeah just a little bit.

          Now if you are interested in the Watchtowers involvement with the UN as a NGO or other deceitful cover-ups, then this is the place for you. You are more than welcome to participate in the discussions but to defend the indefensible actions of this pedofile protecting cult (and that’s what their current policy’s accomplish) then I suggest you follow your leaders prohibitions on internet viewing and leave here returning to the purple haze of Millerite Adventism and prepare yourself for the next “great disappointment”.

          Oh Devin, or whatever your name is, all of us here want to see five things take place namely,
          1) for the arrogant Watchtower Society to obey Caesar’s laws and report child abuse,
          2) change their flawed policies of pedophile protection and stonewalling cover-ups,
          3) compensate the victims for damages,
          4) permanently ban convicted pedophiles from the organization,
          5) remove the current governing body from office for cowardice and incompetency.

          But we all know of the above will happen about as soon as Armageddon arrives, don’t we? How about that pivotal year of 1975, were you even around then, how is that working out for you?

          Thanks Caroline for the use of your “reply” space as I didn’t want to involve myself with a possible troll which I don’t wish to feed.

          Big B

          • Sharon Christensen says:

            “Devin” can cnt time on here….does not have to wrestle with his veg cart! Perhaps he has on his rose colored glasses…nothing but puppies and ducklings…sweet and beautiful things….shrugs….

  14. Ricardo says:

    @Devin W,
    The fault with our organization is not only that child abuse takes place (one child abused is already too many), but even more so the way it is kept quiet. Child abuse may not be systemic in the congregations, but the deafening silence from the GB, from the CO’s, from the elders and from the rank and file is systemic. Why are fellow witnesses ignoring this dreadful situation? Why can’t they be honest enough to acknowledge it?

    I talked to my CO and he knew nothing about the Conti case or the ‘Amelia’ case in which Watchtower has had to pay millions of our donations as compensation for child sexual abuse. He didn’t even know about the conclusions of the Australian Royal Commission, and we are in Australia! And when I saw him at the next meeting and offered him newspaper articles about the cases, he refused to accept them. He didn’t want to know! Why? Because, in his words, he has found that letting negativity into his mind can cause his positive spirituality to be dissolved! What! When reality gets in the way and disturbs your rosy picture of the organization, what should you do according to the CO? Ignore reality. Does that sound reasonable to you, Devin?

    And then, when a brother visits me and starts talking about the Catholic church and I mention the child abuse cases Watchtower has lost (which he too knows nothing about) he shrugs his shoulders and says, “Why are you telling me? I can’t do anything about it.” Is this the glorious brotherly love and concern we should show for the victims of our religion? Can you imagine the good Samaritan shrugging his shoulders and saying, “What can I do about it?” Isn’t the least we can do to show care and love for the victims is to know what is happening in our congregations?

    Keeping a wall of silence isn’t going to make the problem go away, Devin. It just makes the anger and frustration more heated, and when at last the pressure becomes too great the lid will blow and our organization will be wrecked. It is as if our leadership (GB, CO’s and elders) is intentionally damaging the organization, which is bizzare.

    Does it make you proud to see the lack of care for the victims, Devin? Does it make you proud that there is complete silence from our membership about the sexual abuse court cases Watchtower has lost?

    In the aviation industry, when there is a crash, the investigators are there immediately to find out what went wrong, and when the cause is found, immediate action is taken to improve and prevent further incidents.

    In our organization, when child sexual abuse is discovered, what immediate action is taken? Nothing! Nothing for decades! Look at this documentary video on youtube: Enquete: The Kingdom’s Dirty Secrets (Jehovah’s Witnesses). It shows that the GB have known for decades about the extent of child sexual abuse and done nothing. Does that make you feel proud to be a witness, Devin?

    Why keep child abuse in our organization a dirty secret?

    In the God’s Kingdom Rules! book (the one we use in our mid-week study) on pages 200 and 201 there is an illustration showing Where Do Our Donations Go. Nowhere there does it mention the millions spent on compensation for child sexual abuse carried out mainly by elders in the congregations. Why not?

    Can you answer me that question, Devin? Can you tell me why not? Why aren’t we told? Because if I ask an elder or a CO, they will get angry and blame me. So can you tell me?

    • Big B says:

      @ Ricardo;

      This is probably the best thing you have ever written and I personally, from the bottom of my heart, hope that something you have written for Devin will strike a cord and get him thinking.

      Oh, and I don’t practice shunning really, and when you’re right you should have the proper acknowledgement. This was an excellent piece of advice to help Devin and not the sarcastic comment I left him with. So, again excellent commentary, well done!

      You however, will do or not do according to your own conscience, definitely not mine nor should you. Therefore, in keeping with Christ’s admonition and my common sense, I sincerely apologize for my judgmental comments to you on the last thread that were boorish bordering on self righteousness.

      It’s my biggest fault, the loss of control of temper and Type A personality makes for a deadly combination. This however, does not constitute an excuse for boorish behavior. I sometimes (all the time really, just ask my wife and sons) jump in others mess if they don’t follow my admonition or advice, no matter how sincere I may be. Sounds a little like Peter, “open mouth and insert foot”. However, I mean well but I can’t catch many flies with vinegar can I?

      Again, I apologize for my insulting, demeaning comments in response to you.
      Sincerely yours,

      Big B

    • Devin W says:

      Did you actually read my post?. I said anyone involved with not only child abuse, but, I’ll add murder, rape, drug dealing, beating of wives and children, terrorrism, theft, prostitution, child slave labor, child smuggling, Greed, extortion, violence, drunkards, people that smoke that kill others from their 2nd hand smoke while killing themselves and costing taxpayers a fortune in medical bills, drunk drivers or anyone operating under the influence, robbers, gun smugglers or gun abusers, people who kill animals for the fun of it, children and teens that disrespect authority such as police and school teachers along with parents that defend them when they do wrong, people who willfully rip people off, people that hate because of race. I think I just about covered about 99% of mankind. Yes, they should all be held accountable for their actions. If you think for one minute Jehovah doesn’t see all, I don’t know what you believe anymore. You stated elders didn’t know what happened. Good elders barely have any time for themselves. I Know elders that now little on world events, yet, I’m extremely well read on world events. My own brother and sister who are,in the world will nit watch the news anymore. They told me it scares them too much and depresses them. It’s not just them, it’s virtually almost everone I work with. The last days are said to be ” critical “. I’m puzzled at why you would expect anything less. Since you know the scriptures, many of the 1st century congregations had serious problems. Did it mean that the apostles failed? No. They couldn’t be everywhere and couldn’t read people’s hearts. Here we live in a world so bad , that even the government’s are loosing control before our eyes.Animals on the verge if extinction, virtually all the ocean polluted and dying. Decimating of the earths natural resources on a grand scale. Can I blame anyone who has become afraid and rurns off the news? Yet, to blame the brothers for things that happen and them not knowing is bad? I could write a novel on here that I’ll guarantee you if 1 person knew all I know I would be extremely surprised. So, I don’t condone any wrongdoing. Period. But, in the vile, disgusting world we live in. Unfortunately, even in the truth people will fall and will reap what they sow.

      • Ricardo says:

        @Devin,
        Yes, the congregations in the first century had their problems, but that fact was no kept secret. Our organization is not paying millions of dollars of o donations in compensation for murders etc etc. Only child sexual abuse.

        Why I our problem, and our donations being paid out, an institutionalized secret???

        • Devin W says:

          Read revelations. The congregations were being weighed by Jehovah, not the apostles. Paul didn’t know what was happening. He wrote that under inspiration. Today, with over 100,000 congregations. Only Jehovah is the one who can see all the congregations. Not the society.

          • Caroline says:

            “Revelations”???? How new are you Devin? I think almost every one of a real Jehovah’s Witness knows it’s “Revelation” not “Revelations”.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Devin,
            A major difference this time, and one which you must explain, is that in the modern times the wrongdoing is not just being done by congregations, but by the GB and in fact the whole of the organization. By keeping quiet and imposing a wall of silence, not only is the GB doing very little to solve this problem, thus giving tacit support to the abusers, but the GB is also preventing the authorities we should be submissive to from doing their job.

            This is unprecedented! Never before, except for the time of the great apostasy after the death of the last apostle, has the WHOLE organization been involved in dragging Jehovah’s name through the mud.

            You are making this problem seem small, minimizing it. It is HUGE, and rather than taking steps to fix a problem which they have known for decades existed, the GB has done nothing. They are like the three monkeys who see no evil, speak no evil and hear no evil. The Governing Body is being grossly irresponsible. The problem is not just congregations. The problem is the whole organization, from top to bottom. The whole organization is incompetent, if not corrupt.

            Please explain, why are the members of the Governing Body not fixing this problem? Why are they not cooperating with the authorities who are trying to fix it? How does Jehovah feel as his name is dragged through the mud by the leaders in our organization who feel that sitting on their hands is better than facing up to their responsibility? How does Jehovah feel as he sees our leadership sabotaging his organization?

  15. Sarah says:

    I am so sorry – sorry to all the victims, sorry elders did not listen to you, sorry we kept everything secret, sorry about 1975 etc. etc
    I was part of it and didn’t speak out until recently. OK, some of it I didn’t know but still, I should have dug more deeply.
    I wish to apologise that we did not understand the two witness rule more clearly, that we didn’t recognize that the government has the God-given responsibility to sort out criminal matters, that victims were sent home to endure more abuse, and told not to report to the police.
    We are so very wrong. It all comes about from thinking we have the right to make up our own rules when we should stick strictly to the ones Jesus gave us. It comes from a lack of humility, a love and abuse of power.
    Sorry is not good enough, but it’s all I can do just at this minute. I’ll try to rectify other things from now on, and will speak out as strongly as I can. Devin W. please do the same.

    • Devin W says:

      Sarah, are you sorry for all the gangs in America. The serial killers, racism, lack of respect for authority. Greed of corporations and politicians. Are you sorry for the drug cartels, illegal drug smuggling, murder if innocent children due to gun violence. Are you sorry for the contribution of the military might built by the worlds governments that has killed 100 million people. Are you sorry for the dictators who murder and,starve their people. Are you sorry for the homeless, women that are treated like dogs in countries. Sorry for aids and all the other VD’s. Sorry for all the children of single family households. Alcohols parents, stoners, are tou sorry for them. The breakdown in the marital arrangement? Millions of babies murdered from abortion every year. Sorry for the 1 in 5 kids that will be molested in the .U.S. Are you sorry that global currencies are manipulated by governments, making the rich richer, and the poor poorer. Tell me Sarah. The organization is so bad telling people to keep their eye’s towards Gods kingdom. Telling them to keep their lives simple and to not get caught up in this system. Life in this system is short lived. Jehovah’s kingdom is forever. If you disagree with that you can take it up with Jehovah.

      • dee2 says:

        Devin W,

        You sound like one depressed soul.

        “Depression is a natural result of loss, and if you internalize teachings that poison you against the world, then of course you will become depressed.”
        – Dr. Lorin Roche.

        A mind set of negativity can only poison you against the world and make you depressed.

        No need to depress yourself anymore – THE DEADLINE FOR THE END OF THE SYSTEM HAS ALREADY PASSED.

        • Devin W says:

          Jehovah’s ” deadline” will not fail. Unless you call him a liar. If you stick your head in the sand. You only have yourself to blame.

          • Judith W says:

            Hi Devin,

            You are so right in saying “Jehovah’s deadline will not fail.” I dedicated my life to Jehovah on March 8th 1980 and will NEVER turn away from him. He is my God and I have utmost confidence in him and in his son and the bible. When I dedicated my life to him though, I did not dedicate myself to an organisation. Unfortunately, in recent times, I have discovered discrepancies between God’s precious word and what the organisation teaches. No one within the organisation tells you what to do when you see a contradiction. But ….. our bible trained conscience tells us what to do – BELIEVE THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD. Jesus said, ‘Your Word is truth’ and the Beroeans were a great example for us. With the issue of child abuse, the Society applies the ‘Two Witness Rule’ as you and I know. But you and I also know that true Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law are we? That’s why we don’t keep a weekly sabbath nor do we continue to offer up animals. That would be a lack of appreciation for Christ’s sacrifice as Christ’s blood paid the price for sin and ended the Law. What I never realised until recent contemplation was …… the ‘Two Witness Rule’ is from the Law. It was done away with when Jesus died and the Law ended. I was only reading JOHN 8:17 the other day and invite you to look it up too. Why are the Society saying that the ‘Two Witness rule’ applies, when they themselves tell us that we are no longer under law?

            We are taught that only the spirit of the law remains and I’m sure you’ll agree with me that the spirit of the Two Witness rule was to establish truth. The truth of whether someone has been a victim of child abuse can be ascertained in this day and age through various means. You and I know our God. He is the God of justice! He would never approve of sticking with a law that ended with Christ and allows pedophiles to remain in the proximity of children. Think about your God. The pope claims to be the ‘Vicar of Christ’ but we know he is not. The ‘Church of Christ’ are not necessarily the true church of Christ because of their name. In the same way, an organisation calling themselves ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ doesn’t mean that they really are. Jesus said, ‘By their fruits you will recognize them’ MATT 7:15-23.

            I know it is REALLY hard to examine these things from a different viewpoint. You really need to love truth. Rest assured that if you do truly love truth, Jehovah and his son will help you in your journey and, as insignificant as I am, I am happy to help you too.

            One of the biggest hurdles is thinking that we need to belong to an organisation to be a witness for Jehovah and for Jesus. The bible shows us over and over again that Jehovah judges us as individuals, not as a group but ….. in the organisation we are told over and over again that we are judged as a group. After hearing that for decades, it’s completely understandable that this teaching is strongly entrenched in us. Of course that makes you think of Paul’s words in 2 COR 10:4 doesn’t it?

            I am happy to discuss more things with you in a spirit of love if you’d like to. There really is so much to learn from God’s Word but, sadly, in the organisation we were never encouraged to read it and come to any conclusion ourselves were we? ‘Independent thinking’ as it is termed is something to be avoided and yet, independent thinking is exactly what Paul praised the Beroeans for.

            With sincerity,
            Judith

          • dee2 says:

            Judith W,

            [“True Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law……That’s why we don’t keep a weekly sabbath”]

            The Bible is a mish-mash of different schools of thought/different belief systems.

            On the one hand, the Bible claims that the Old Testament Laws were never to be superseded or replaced; while at the same time also claiming that the Law was superseded by the Christian dispensation.

            LAW BINDING FOREVER:

            – After giving each of its injunctions, the OT repeats the mantra:

            “It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations” (Leviticus 7:36; 10:9; 23:14, 21, 31; 23:31, 41; Numbers 10:8; 18:23).

            Not only does the OT never even hint that its covenant would eventually be revoked or replaced with something else, it says flatly that these laws will be in effect forever.

            – The laws are binding forever. They are an everlasting covenant, for a thousand generations, always and forever.

            “Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.” (Deuteronomy 7:9)

            ” Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always.” (Deuteronomy 11:1)

            ” Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations … an everlasting covenant.” (1 Chronicles 16:15)

            ” Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.” (Psalm 119:151-2)

            ” Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.” (Psalm 119:160)

            – It was a perfect Law given by a perfect God:
            Psalm 19:7-11

            – “I am come not to destroy the law but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17 – 19.)

            – “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.” (Luke 16:17)

            – “One came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him…….if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Luke 19:16-17)

            – “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but IT IS THOSE WHO OBEY THE LAW WHO WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS” (Romans 2:12,13)

            – “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Romans 3:31)

          • messenger says:

            @Judith W

            You wrote a very nice comment.

        • dee2 says:

          Judith W. cont’d:

          LAW SUPERSEDED/REPLACED:

          – “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.” (Hebrews 8:7)

          “The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.” (Luke 16:16)

          Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin…. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” (Romans 3:20, 28 )

          “Ye are not under the law, but under grace.” (Romans 6:14)

          “Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ …. We are delivered from the law, that being dead.” (Romans 7:4, 6)

          “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” (Romans 10:4)

          “know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.”
          (Galatians 2:16)

          “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:21)

          “Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” (Galatians 3:11-13)

          “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” (Galatians 3:24 – 25)

          “But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” (Galatians 5:18)

          “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.” (Ephesians 2:15)

          “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances……nailing it to his cross.” (Colossians 2:14)

        • dee2 says:

          Judith W,

          Similarly with the SABBATH. The Bible presents a mish-mash of different ideas here as well.

          Is it necessary to keep the Sabbath?

          YES:

          – God sanctified the seventh-day long before the Law was given to Israel:
          Genesis 2:2-3:
          “And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”

          – The author of Hebrews says that God rested on the seventh day, so believers should too:

          Hebrews 4:4-11:
          “…….On the seventh day God rested from all his works……There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God……For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.”

          – It is one of the Ten Commandments which is “a perpetual covenant.” (Leviticus 7:36; 10:9; 23:14, 21, 31; 23:31, 41; Numbers 10:8; 18:23).

          Exodus 31:13-16:
          “My Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations…….for a perpetual covenant.”

          – Jesus indicated that the Sabbath would be observed up to the time of his second coming/ the end of the world (for those who believe this is yet to come):

          Matthew 24:20:
          “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day.”

          NO:
          Isaiah 1:13
          Matthew 19:16-23
          Mark 2:27-28; 10:18-25
          Luke 13:10-14; 18:18-24
          John 5:18
          Romans 14:5
          Colossians 2:13-19

          etc.

          • Caroline says:

            dee2, Thank you so much for all those contradicting scriptures. You proved the point 100%!!!

          • Devin W says:

            I can only say. Just by your comments against eachother. You don’t speak in agreement. You base all your beliefs on your own personal opinions. So, you have no truth. The only thing you agree on is that you hate the orginaztion. I’m curious, According to you, Jesus had 1 apostle that betrayed him. That a 8% failure rate. Even the messiah himself wouldn’t live up to your perfect srandards. As one person mentioned, even one is too much. Keep those blinders on because what’s coming everyone’s way isn’t far off. I’m talking about the collapse and turmoil that is already destroying countries. If you don’t think it will make it to your doorstep, you evidently know little about world events.

          • Caroline says:

            Devin, I hate to tell you this but your last comment made absolutely no sense. If the Bible is full of contradictions, then it’s full of contradictions. End of story.

      • Sharon Christensen says:

        Devin….take it from me…abused as child…as wife…while being born in to this marvelous orgy…who says…keep eye simple….and give to us(GOD)….so we can watch the twitter birds from our self made resort benches while marvelling at our holey drain covers…living a life of luxury, while you suckers stay poor and “cart” around our crapolah! Many a time…tis not lookin forward to Gods Kingdom that keeps many WTs from leaping over the hedge…tis the “spiritz” and the antidepressant meds! I know…I felt as you…till I went to other side of fence and…took a look! Sometimes….grass is greener on other side…and sheeple do notice! I have no prob asking Jehovah…what is this…all probs you list, etc…but ask an Elder, or Toni, Morris, Flett…etc. rest of Gb…as to Child abuse, spousal abuse etc., that goes on in their orgy…they will either totally ignore you cuz…who are you, give you a chewin match like you are the guilty one…well give it a try…let us know the response…

        • Devin W says:

          Well, I didn’t grow up in the truth. I grew up in a neighborhood that was surrounded by good christian heroine dealers. You want to talk about beatings. Ask my best friend. Oh wait…he’s dead. His father beat them so bad, that both his,sisters are full blown alcoholics, he committed suicide and is brother is homeless. Maybe you can ask the girl who I hung around with that lived across the street from me. Oh wait. She’s dead. Her entire family was molested by thier good protestant father. The son snapped one day and killed the family. Maybe my father. Oh wait, he’s dead. The ” victim” of being and alcohol and smoking 3 packs a,day. Lost everything at 55. Maybe you can asked the two girls I was friends with when I was 9. 3 houses down. Oh wait, their good Christian father molested them for years and they turned into addicts.
          Then maybe my good friend that lived across the street from me. The one that had five siblings. His father was a alcoholic and beat the crap out of them to, never mind the filth they lived in. Then again, I was a good christian kid. I only beat up people when they hit me 1st. I only had sex with the best looking girls. The others meant nothing to me or my friends. Speaking of my friends. I’d have you talk to one of them, but, because if his good christian upbringing, he was killed by the cops. My best friend is actually doing fairly good now. After spending 10 years in jail for dealing drugs and being a leg breaker (which is the truth). yea, all the good christian families I was fortunate to know. I won’t even mention my uncle. ( just that he was one if the top guys in the mafia) Or my sister who was a coke head by 18 ( good looking girls get the guys with money). She had dinner with the goddi family. You may know them. Very good christian family. Unfortunately, I became a,witness and left all my good christian friends. Stopped using girls for sex, beating up people, drinking 4 nights a week. I’m sure you would have loved my neighborhood. Especially my parties that went on till 3 or 4 am.Boy, Did you miss out on my good christian upbringing. Then again, if you wete ugly. I would have probably not said the nicest things to you. Same with the guys on here. I wouldn’t bother talking to someone who disagreed with me. I’d just make sure they never talked back to me again; That was me. What I told just told you doesn’t even begin to tell you what I went through. I don’t whine, complain ,or tell anyone what I went through. I was a product of this system. At least I am now appreciate of life. That why I get aggravated when I hear people complain, when I’ve been through more than 90% of the people out there. That’s a fact!

          • Sharon Christensen says:

            Devin…sounds like you had a real tuff go of things…sorry for frosting your day. Hope your life is better and can stay as such…keep your faith in God…that is good…to bad you had to go thru the things listed, or that you acted the way you did and hurt others…you must have grown up in the city…I grew up in the bush…thank the Good Lord for bush!!!! Best place to live, where I only have claw marks in my steel door where the bear tried to pull it open and get in, and claw scratches all over my windows….I would rather take my chances with the wild life in bush country…than “wyldlife” of the cities….Right now baby bear wants more peanut butter…Moma bear is wondering what it taking me so long…Good yu visited this site…and shared with us your life story a tad’ just do not tell the folks at the KH you attend…won’t fly. A person can still believe without…Religion…Religion equals…control.

      • Caroline says:

        Devin, I was a total believer from 1964 until 3 years ago and I believed just as you do now but all during that time, I did not allow myself to really think about all the implications that the Bible and Watchtower were pushing at us week after week and meeting after meeting and Watchtower article and book after book. I just had the fear of Armageddon in my head and the thought of having to save the world from total destruction just as you do now. I thought as you do now and so did everybody who comments on here thought. We all thought the same thing as you do now but once you pull away from the indoctrination from all the meetings and magazines and books and you sit back and think about all the implications of total destruction of this system of things by Jehovah, you begin to realize how unrealistic the whole thing really is.

        It took me about 3 months of not attending meetings before the fear of Armageddon left me. When my friends and relatives expressed their concern for me from stopping going to meetings etc. all I could tell them was the I knew 100% that Jehovah was not going to kill me at Armageddon. They thought it was so arrogant of me to say such a thing but now I know for sure that that is true.

        If you do any real research into the Bible and how we got it and how it contradicts itself hundreds of times and maybe even thousands of time (if you add up all the contradictions) you will quickly realize that the Bible is not any inspiration of any real god and can’t be taken seriously at all and the fear of how it talks about how god is going to kill all the chickens in the hen house because of one bad fox, you lose that fear of Armageddon and how the Bible talks about Armageddon.

        It takes a few months and you realize that all religions think they have the truth and they all think they are the only ones who God is talking to and they all think that only they are the ones who are going to survive a world wide destruction and on and on.

        Watchtower uses all the bad conditions in the world to put that fear into you and all of us. But think about it. Why kill all the chickens in the hen house because of one fox?

        What would the world be like if we had no electricity or gas to run our cars and machinery and how would we all go to the bathroom with nobody to run our disposal plants and how we we get clothing with nobody to run the farms to grow the cotton and make the cloth and who is going to plant all the food and harvest it and on and on?

        We were told not to think. If we had any questions on how we would live after Armageddon, we were told to leave it in Jehovah’s hands and not to think about it so we would not lose our faith in God and the new system.

        But we were taught not to think. That is what mind control does to a person.

        That fear of Armageddon does not leave immediately once you begin to think. It takes a while because that fear is so ingrained in us. But that is simply a tool that religions use to keep us captive to it.

        Watchtower tells it’s rank and file not to ever look at anything critical of Watchtower because it may cause us to lose our faith in God and the new system of things but if it’s really the truth, then it will stand up to lies.

        No religion should ever tell it’s rank and file that everybody else is free to examine whether their religion stands up to the Bible but they are not allowed to examine their own religion but that is exactly what Watchtower does. It tells it’s rank and file that they should not examine their own religion to see if it stands up to what the Bible really says and so it is hypocritical. If it’s really the real “truth”, it should have nothing to fear, should it?

        Any religion that tells it’s people that they will be disfellowshipped for reading anything critical of it’s religion, is automatically not the truth.

        • Sharon Christensen says:

          Totally Caroline! Your thoughts here so much as I felt/feel. I was never scared of God destroying me….If my earthly Father was kind and understanding to all…no matter what or who…I always felt my Heavenly Father would be more so. Many people I worked with etc….those ladies in the shelter with me…and on and on…including people I met along lifes path who were trans or gay, apostate…nice and kind, helpful..who were supposedly bad or wicked, because they were not of the JW faith. I treated kindly and felt that if God were to destroy them…well then it was worth getting destroyed for trying to be kind to them etc….If there is a God, I feel He would be kind and fair to everyone….we all have …”fallen” shorts at one time and need His tender mercy and kindness….Very judgemental of a person or those who run a Religion to think they are better than any other person. No matter what one puts on oneself…bowties, cufflinks, pressed poly suits, drawed all up…Everything is naked to Gods eyes…He knows the heart….One can maybe fox people to some degree, if they are closing their eyes to evidence and info…but God is not one to be fooled or mocked.

      • dee2 says:

        Devin W,

        Jesus gave the following deadlines for the end of the world:

        1. After the destruction of the temple
        2. Before the passing of Jesus’ generation
        3. Before the apostles/disciples finished traveling through the cities of Israel
        4. Before the death of the incumbent Jewish high priest.

        (Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 14:53-62, Mark 8:39 to 9:1, Mark 13:30-33, Matthew 24:34 – 36, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, Luke 9:26-27, Mark 1:14 – 15, Matthew 10:23, John 21:22 etc.) 

        All those deadlines now lie many centuries in the past; they came and went with absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happening. The promises were broken. Jesus has not returned.

        EVEN BEFORE THE TIME OF JESUS, there were doomsday prophets who predicted that the world would end soon. A list of hundreds of failed predictions that the world would end soon can be accessed here:

        http://web.archive.org/web/20061112080540/http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

        These failed predictions date as far back as 2800 BC, to an inscription on an Assyrian clay table, now in the Municipal Museum at Istanbul, which said:

        “Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common.”

  16. messenger says:

    Devin

    I didn’t read all your comments, nor did I read very much (hardly anything) from those who responded to you. Just tonight I read from these posts and frankly didn’t want to spend the time. That’s not a reflection on you or anything you wrote, but rather my desire to relax at this time. I did see that you argued the Watchtower Society does not know everything going on in each congregation with reference to child molesters. I’m sure you agree WT does know the policies it sets and the laws it breaks, if and when that happens. In other words I’m sure you agree WT knows what it does.

    While WT is telling us to obey governmental authorities, and teaching we must not lie it doesn’t abide by those directions. The WT organization has been ordered by a superior court, and after that an appeals court in California to turn over files it possesses concerning sexual child abuse both to the court, and to its opposing lawyer in a San Diego lawsuit, so that the opposing attorney can use those documents to prepare his client’s case. Turning over such materials are totally appropriate during the discovery part of a lawsuit. It is required that each side do it. That is an integral part of civil litigation. And civil litigation would not be just without it, because it might then be impossible to discover the truth in some cases. Discovery is a search for TRUTH! And yet WT is not complying with either of those court orders. WT is not obeying governmental authorities. And in this case it cannot use the appellate process as an excuse. The appellate court is one of those courts that gave the order. WT is thus concealing the truth from the courts and the public. The truths WT is concealing have nothing to do with the Bible’s message Christ commanded us to speak. Instead those truths might harm WTs reputation and cost it money. But those truths might also indirectly lead to WT protecting its children more effectively.

    During judicial committee hearings congregants are expected to tell the truth and reveal information that might lead to them sufferings harm, with the hope that process might cause them to change a detrimental course they were on. WT chooses not to follow that course, but instead to resist it. As Bible students we know the name of the first recorded resister of God. WT is aware of that also, and yet it has decided to disobey clear Biblical orders to obey the superior (governmental) authorities. And, as Romans states, those who take a stand against that arrangement will suffer from it. WT is presently reaping a negative consequence-see Lloyd’s ticker registering a $4000 per day fine. Surely you don’t associate these actions of WT with ‘taking a stand for the Truth.’

    What these articles address on this site dealing with sexual child abuse, and also most of the commenters’ replies to the is WT policies, not the actions of individual JW child abusers inside congregations. No one is saying that WT can prevent all molestations. But your claim WT does not know about every incident is incorrect. Because WT has ordered its elders to report all cases to their respective branches, and WT keeps a file on each case. What articles and commenters claim here is that WT policies can be improved to better protect children. Also questions are raised about WT’s hypocrisy and immorality, because of its failure to comply with court orders and its outright lies.

    • Big B says:

      @ messenger:

      Exactly so and well put.

      If they (G.B.) know of failed policies and after being told so by the secular government (ARC among others) then where does the problem rest? With God, the publishers that report the incident, the victim of the alleged sexual assault, or the interagency of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

      Leaving the ” matter in Jehovah’s hands” is Witness speak for doing nothing. “Don’t you dare say anything to the authorities and bring reproach to His organization!” Can’t let outsiders think that we have the same problems with pedophiles like other churches, can we?

      I truly believe that this problem and other issues are a direct result of their ten year U.N. involvement and this is divine retribution. This maybe God’s way of renouncing this wayward cult. Who knows for sure, certainly not me?

  17. Sharon Christensen says:

    Good points all of you…wish I could give such…I get all wound up and…ppppfffrrrttt…zup! :). But I think Devin is maybe worried…what if the Dear Bros and their predictions, etc. are not right….he was not a Wt in ’75…. when end….pfrt zup to, and here we are, how many yrs latter, just “imagined” the hipe of according to GB. Give him time….he is searching? You will know the Truth…and the Truth about the Truth, will set you free?

  18. messenger says:

    @Judith W

    My brief comment above was buried under a mountain of expressions from other commenters. So I post it again, here:

    “A very nice comment Judith W.”

    • Judith W says:

      Hello ‘messenger’. Thank you for letting me know that you appreciated my comment to Devin. I was so disappointed when Devin did not acknowledge anything I wrote about and then grouped me in with those who like to argue simply because others on the thread took exception to things I wrote about to Devin. I chose not to comment any further despite having many thoughts to share on the points raised by the other commenters. I get disheartened by the unkind way that many of these subjects are discussed. Your comment though was very constructive and highlighted the important issue of policies. I enjoyed reading your comment and concur with what you wrote.

      I know how excruciatingly painful and shocking it is to discover that MATT 6:23 applies to you, “If in reality the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is.” I was thoroughly convinced that I had ‘the truth’. I thought I knew my bible well and could flick from one scripture to another with ease in support of my beliefs. Sadly I only knew verses well but failed to understand chapters and books. We were really trained in verses that support beliefs. Reading the bible ourselves and reaching conclusions was portrayed as presumptuous and bad.

      I feel so comforted though by the real good news I have found by diligently reading the bible myself and praying humbly to God to help me find the real truth. I was so overjoyed with what I found, I made a website to share my joy. http://www.lovetruth.com.au/
      Sadly, most people don’t seem interested in the real good news. I guess this shouldn’t surprise us as Jesus also said, “narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” I just never realised how few there would be. I can honestly say though that I am happier than I have ever been in my life despite the trials. I belong to a new family now – one united in Christ! I only know a handful of others who feel similarly but I know there are many more out there that I haven’t met and won’t meet in this life but will in the future. It’s just like Elijah who didn’t know that there were 7000 others who hadn’t ‘bent the knee to Baal.’ 1 KINGS 19:18. The important thing is that these ones are known to Jesus and to our heavenly Father. We are all united in spirit.

      I hope your journey is going well. Please feel free to make contact via the website if you would like to. Once again thanks for your kind encouragement. It is appreciated. 🙂

      • messenger says:

        Judith W

        I’ll check out your web site.

        If you change your mind about commenting here I’ll look forward to your comments. Yes, there are those here who take exception to any Bible believer’s statements. They feel they can change minds with the same arguments they post under every article. Misguided Bible interpretations is what they present. I grew up a scraper, so that doesn’t bother me. But if you choose not to comment you might just read here. Though that might also be a stressful experience when reading from the comment sections.

        But yes, your comment was a good one. Tonight I checked a couple statistical compilation sources regarding this web site. One of those estimated JWSurvey gets about 100,000 site hits per month. So realize that fact if you do decide to comment, because your comment will most likely be seen by many more than the person you might be addressing (like Devin), or those that add comments in response to yours (like dee2). That’s the main reason I write here, not for the sake of the commenters but because of the readers.

        I think there are a lot more people right now that are in a relationship with Christ than you think there are. WT put judgmental blinders on us so we wouldn’t think so or recognize them.

        Everything is going good for me now. Things seem to be falling into nice places right now.

        Take care

        messenger

        • Ricardo says:

          @Messenger, I have made contact with Judith W in the past. It would be interesting if we could all make contact together. Tell me what you think.

          • messenger says:

            @ Ricardo

            I went to Judith’s web site. In addition to checking it out my intent was to ask her to pass on one of my email addresses to you. But as of this writing I haven’t discovered how to contact her on her site. Maybe after exploring it enough I’ll see a contact link there.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Messenger,
            Click on the rectangle that says My Story and there is a contact box which appears.

          • Judith W says:

            Hello Messenger and Ricardo 🙂 I have just gone into the website and changed the configuration so that the ‘Contact’ tab appears in the navigation bar. Hopefully that will make things easier. I’m no website expert that’s for sure. I was just so keen to share good news with others that I learnt how to use a website building program. When I first left, I went looking on the internet for others who still had a love for God and his son and respect for the bible after leaving. When I couldn’t find a website focusing on good news rather than just on the filth of the organisation (and oh how much filth there is to find!) I wondered whether there were others like me hoping to connect with like-minded ones who, whilst thoroughly disgusted with the lies and hypocrisy of the organisation, could see that such acts and deception had NOTHING to do with the true God and were intent on finding the real truth. I thought, “Well, maybe I can put something up there as a way to encourage these ones.” I am happy to say that through the website, we have met a lovely family in the US who are completely in sync with us. What a joy! And …. I ‘met’ you too Ricardo. You made me laugh when you told me that my website was too happy and joyful. What a funny thing to say. 🙂 I still smile about that remark but …. I am learning to understand that everyone’s journey is different. It takes a long time to recover from the awful truth that what we thought was truth was, in fact, the opposite. What a shock! What a blow! But oh how humbling it is. It really is humbling. I pioneered for almost 20 years and helped 20 people to baptism and now I shudder to think about this and I have prayed and cried for forgiveness for my role in bringing people into a lie, not truth. I was an expert in quoting bible verses. People at the doors would always say, “Wow! You really know your bible,” but …. sadly ….. I knew verses of the bible rather than chapters and books and so many of those verses are not valid when read in context. The real truth is so simple and beautiful in contrast to the complicated doctrines I became an expert in explaining. I really hope that I can spend the rest of my life helping to share the real good news to the few that Jesus said would respond. I now know not to expect many to listen or even be interested. Jesus said that few would find the narrow road to life. I don’t have to carry the burden anymore of ‘bloodguilt’ that was heaped upon us in the organisation. I know that Jesus is in control of matters and can read hearts. He will help each and every one who is sincere to find that road. What a relief! I am not responsible for the lives of everyone I meet. I can however share my joy with others and help if I can. I really relate to Jesus’ words in MATT 11:28 – 30 in a way I never understood previous to leaving, “Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart and you will find refreshment for your soul. For my yoke is kindly and my load is light.” What a joy! (I hope that I’m not too joyful in this post Ricardo. Hahahaha!)

Leave a Reply