Leaked 2018 convention videos celebrate anti-LGBTQ bigotry, unquestioning obedience and doomsday fear-mongering
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A disturbing series of videos due to be shown at the 2018 regional convention has been leaked

In recent years, videos have become integral to the way Jehovah’s Witnesses receive information from their leaders the Governing Body, or “faithful slave.”

Nowhere is the explosion in the use of visual media more apparent than at Watchtower’s annual regional conventions, at which Witnesses now receive a barrage of well over 50 highly-polished, meticulously produced videos over three days.

Ever since Watchtower got serious about converting conventions into video propaganda marathons, organization insiders – including concerned elders and circuit overseers – have been leaking the video material to activists like myself in early summer, just before the convention season is due to start.

They have done this, at great risk of being discovered and punished, in the hope that an early warning of the gruesome content soon to be unleashed will help thinking Witnesses and relatives of devout believers to brace themselves for the onslaught of manipulation, guilt-tripping and fear-mongering in store.

For example, in 2016 I was able to produce a nine-part series of videos titled the Worst Convention Ever drawing attention to some of the more alarming visual specimens from the “Remain Loyal to Jehovah” regional convention. Among the more disturbing content was a trilogy of videos reminding JW parents of the need to shun their disfellowshipped children, and even a drama depicting a group of Witnesses huddled in a basement during the Great Tribulation, awaiting persecution by authorities under Satan’s control.

The 2017 “Don’t Give Up!” convention was not quite as relentless in its stomach-churning awfulness, but still managed to include material attacking homosexualitydenying Watchtower’s false predictions related to 1975, and even suggesting that children have a role to play in preventing their own molestation.

The 2018 “Be Courageous” convention program hasn’t even been released on JW.org yet, but months before the first events are due to start we already have reason to expect similarly jaw-dropping material thanks to an unprecedented leak of unfinished convention video files to JWsurvey.org, complete with timers and greenscreen.

Six videos have been sent to JWsurvey by a Watchtower insider, apparently intended for a symposium designed to remind Witnesses of the need to show courage. Without being able to consult the program, it is unclear precisely which talk these videos are intended for, or what the overall theme is, but based on the numbering of the videos (compared with the numbering from previous years) I would guess that they are due to be shown on the Friday afternoon. (The videos are numbered 44 to 49, and in the 2017 convention video similar numbers were allotted to the Friday symposium featuring the 1975 denial video.)

I have taken the liberty of making a 28-minute YouTube rebuttal to three of the six videos, which you can see here…

…but for a more comprehensive review of all six leaked videos, fasten your seatbelts and get ready for another voyage into Watchtower’s twisted twilight zone of cringe-inducing cultiness!

I have embedded the material below (which is now hosted on Russia’s “Rutube” video-hosting platform) for your convenience.

 

Message 1: “Worldly” workmates may bully you into getting politically involved

We’ve all been in that situation. We’re going about our own business at work when suddenly we’re ambushed by a colleague demanding we join a protest or sign a petition against a piece of legislation that threatens the company with cutbacks and layoffs. After politely declining, the conversation soon escalates to the point where we are told that our position at the company “is under serious consideration depending on the outcome of this discussion.”

Actually, if I’m being completely honest, I’ve never been in this situation and I’ve never heard of any friends or relatives being in this situation either. That’s not to say it’s impossible for such a thing to happen, but at the very least it is extremely unlikely that someone would be jettisoned from their work simply for refusing to take sides politically. In some countries, employment laws even prohibit such behavior. In the United Kingdom, companies could be pursued through a tribunal on grounds of unfair dismissal for firing an employee based on religious or political opinions.

But none of this has stopped Watchtower from devoting considerable time and resources to exploring this specific scenario in full HD by telling us the fictional story of Mark O’Brien – a Jehovah’s Witness who works in a factory that looks suspiciously like a Bethel workshop.

Watchtower needs to make Witnesses fearful and paranoid about Satan’s world by convincing them that “worldly” people are thuggish, threatening and unyielding (unlike Jehovah’s organization, which separates people from their families for disagreeing with the leaders), and the story of Mark, dreamt up by their Writing Department, well serves this purpose.

It is unclear whether Mark was sacked and exposed to financial peril as a result of not putting a squiggle on a piece of paper, but his elders applaud his heroics regardless. His is a much-needed story of “courage” – or example of unswerving loyalty to Witness teachings – that will provide an invaluable shot in the arm to a congregation apparently “anxious about unstable world conditions.”

 

Message 2: Allies of the LGBTQ community are hostile and confrontational

In recent years, Watchtower has grown increasingly vocal about its homophobic stance. We have seen a string of children’s cartoons, worksheets and magazine articles, all geared toward reminding Witnesses that it is their right – indeed, duty – to object to other people’s relationships if these relationships are same sex.

Governing Body member Anthony Morris III has gone so far as to blame gay people for child sex abuse, and has even tried to expose them as architects of a global conspiracy to accentuate the male form.

As recently as last year’s “Don’t Give Up!” convention, the firepower of Watchtower’s video-making machine was turned on the LGBTQ community in the three-part drama “Remember the Wife of Lot.” After one of his daughters brings home a friend from work, Brian (the patriarch of the family) pounces on her passing mention of having lesbian parents by launching into an awkward, unconvincing refutation of homosexuality that seems to only succeed in making everyone want to exit the room as quickly as possible.

But it seems Watchtower still isn’t done with trying to make gay and lesbian people feel miserable. In the above video, “Sally” is shown being subjected to a public display of outrage and intimidation by a professed Christian woman who scorns her for failing to wear a rainbow-colored wristband in support of LGBTQ rights.

Having failed to persuade anyone that Jehovah’s Witnesses have the right to tell gays and lesbians whom they may or may not love, or how they may or may not express their love, an exasperated Watchtower has resorted to this shabby attempt at portraying allies of the LGBTQ community as sneering, hostile and confrontational – precisely the attitude that Watchtower itself exhibits against gays and lesbians through its publications.

This is shallow, overt propaganda the type of which Goebbels would have been proud. It makes no meaningful arguments. It puts forth no logical, rational reasons for opposing marriage equality. Rather, the makers shamelessly indulge in the tried and trusted method of bypassing the debate altogether by character assassinating their opponents. These are cheap, juvenile tactics unworthy of most teenagers, let alone an organization claiming the sole approval and guidance of the Creator of the universe.

 

Message 3: Witnesses who can’t stomach ambushing people with their beliefs need to “pray, hope in Jehovah, and act!”

In 2006, Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide participated in the distribution of a “Kingdom News” tract titled The End of False Religion Is Near!, the cover of which showed ominous storm clouds and lightning, strongly implying that all but members of the Jehovah’s Witness religion could anticipate violent, fiery annihilation from the heavens. I was a ministerial servant at the time of the tract’s release and recall participating enthusiastically, albeit somewhat nervously, in its circulation.

Of course, I couldn’t have known at the time how hypocritical the tract was. Part of its tirade against false religion included the following words (bold is mine):

In Western lands, church groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same sex marriages. Even churches that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children. What, though, does the Bible teach? It plainly states: “Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men … will inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 6;9, 10) Do you know of religions that condone immoral sex?

Unquestionably, given how much we now know about the extent to which Watchtower has “tolerated” or covered up the sexual abuse of children over many decades, the same tract would need to be worded quite differently if released today!

Anyway, fast forward to 2018 and, despite its hypocrisy and sanctimonious message, Kingdom News no. 37 is unexpectedly celebrated in this video, which depicts “Sister Spencer” struggling with fear due to memories of an unpleasant encounter during the 2006 campaign.

Again, “worldly” people are depicted as fearsome and threatening. An angry householder confronts Sister Spencer, who has hastily given him the tract before retreating from his doorstep.

“Hey, what’s this about?” the man yells after her. “Are you trying to tell me that my religion is false and yours is true? Get off my property! You call back again, I’m gonna set my dog on you!” The dog barks and snarls in confirmation of this threat.

Rather than answer the question, Sister Spencer and her partner huddle together, staggering down the driveway as though they are fleeing a war zone. Perhaps they are dumbfounded by the frenzy of shouting and Alsatian teeth, or perhaps there is just no easy way to tell a total stranger: “Yes, I believe that if you don’t abandon your religious beliefs and embrace mine, you are worthy of annihilation at Armageddon. Have a nice day!”

More than a decade later, Sister Spencer continues to struggle with fear due to this incident. Fortunately, her elders visit and give her the advice she needs. Next time she struggles with apprehension at the prospect of ambushing people she doesn’t know with a message that amounts to “believe as I do, or be killed,” she must mutter the mantra “pray, hope in Jehovah, and act.” (Please take a moment to write that down if it seems too complicated.)

 

Message 4: Witnesses should obey their leaders even if the instructions don’t make sense

Back in 2013, myself and others were horrified to see the following words appear in the November 15, 2013 Watchtower, page 20:

Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith.

It is hard to conceive of more Orwellian, Jonestown-inducing ideology than this. Eight million Jehovah’s Witnesses were told that any instructions from Watchtower must be obeyed regardless of whether they can be logically justified!

Not long after this material was published, JWsurvey covered the story of how a Facebook experiment citing this wording had shockingly revealed that some Witnesses would be willing to take a pill if instructed to do so by the Governing Body. “With faith, I will take it,” said one of those who responded to the challenge. “Even if I perish Jehovah will remember me.”

Of all the shameful rhetoric to find its way into print in the organization’s publications in recent years, you would think Watchtower would be careful to gloss over these overtly cult-like instructions in particular, or at least not feature them prominently in a video to be displayed before millions of attendees at events to which the public are also invited.

But the Governing Body is evidently proud of being able to order Jehovah’s Witnesses to follow their every whim without any need for justification, even to the point of publicly gloating over their ability to control people to this obscene degree. Hence, in the above video, the quotation is gleefully mentioned in response to a story about a group of women resolving to go along with the instructions of elders despite misgivings on the part of at least one of them.

When members of a congregation are divided by their elders into North and South congregations, a sister named Kim takes it upon herself to try persuading her friend to resist being separated from members of her family who have been assigned to a different congregation than her. The upshot is that Kim ends up being reminded by a third, older sister, that – failing “extenuating circumstances” – it would be best to follow the direction of the elders without making a fuss.

Some who have seen this video in my YouTube rebuttal have commented that this seems a subtle means of normalizing the breaking up of families, with the organization awarding itself precedence over family ties. There could be something to this, although – speaking personally as someone whose family life is irreparably scarred by Watchtower shunning – I can’t say that having family members directed to attend a different place of worship is quite as distressing as them being manipulated to treat you as though you are dead.

The most disturbing thing about this video for me is the celebration of the Governing Body’s cult-like grip on the minds of believers, together with the way women are once again – as was the case in the 2017 Remember the Wife of Lot drama – portrayed as meddling, conniving, manipulative and demanding. The same kingdom hall scene could easily have worked if the trouble-maker in the conversation was a man. Instead, it once again falls to a woman to own the stereotype of plotting, bickering and complaining, while one of the men who control her life eavesdrops on the conversation, grinning slyly as her objections are quashed.

 

Message 5: Witness kids should get comfortable with the idea of mass slaughter at Armageddon

Family worship evenings are familiar to most who have been raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses. In my book, The Reluctant Apostate, I tell the story of how one such evening during my childhood resulted in my unexpected involvement in an “Amageddon drill.” My father persuaded me that the Great Tribulation was in progress and I was to run to my room and pack my things, because the family would be fleeing in the car to rendezvous with the rest of the congregation in Macclesfield Forest.

Needless to say, though for one fleeting moment Armageddon was a real, unfolding event, at least in my young mind (which is more than most Witnesses will ever be able to say), the whole thing was a ruse. My father had tricked me in an attempt to convince me to take the end of civilisation and annihilation of all non-Witnesses seriously.

Today, it seems Dad’s fear-mongering exercise was not so outlandish by Watchtower standards. The leaked convention videos include a depiction of a young boy visibly disturbed by Armageddon artwork being considered at a family worship evening to which an elder has been invited. The artwork, which features on page 229 of the God’s Kingdom Rules! book, shows either Jesus or Kenny Rogers riding to exact judgment on Satan’s hordes during God’s day of wrath.

As a dispute over unpaid royalties escalates dramatically, 79-year-old country music singer Kenny Rogers takes matters into his own hands (God’s Kingdom Rules!, page 229)

 

Joking aside, this is extremely potent visual imagery to be thrusting in the faces of young children, but Watchtower apparently revels in requiring this of parents. The video shows the elder guest noticing how visibly rattled Brad is, and asking him what’s on his mind.

At this point in the video, the “Brad” in me is shouting at the screen: “Oh, I dunno Brother – maybe I’m just horrified at the thought of all my friends at school being mown down in an unfathomable bloodbath just because they don’t happen to share my religious views!”

Cleverly, though, Watchtower sidesteps this obvious question by changing it. Rather than have Brad recoiling at the incredible carnage that Armageddon represents, he is inexplicably eager to get involved in it himself.

“Will the brothers tell us how to fight the people who will be attacking us?” Brad asks, giving the elder an opportunity to reassure him with the account at 2 Chronicles chapter 20, in which the Israelites are asked to be spectators to the vanquishing of God’s enemies. The unfinished reenactment, complete with exposed greenscreen, shows God’s people filing past the corpses of the divinely executed.

“It was obvious that Brad’s courage was strengthened after reviewing this Bible account,” the elder later tells his colleagues, apparently glowing with pride at his teaching skills. But there is no reason for pride, either in the handling of Brad’s contrived, unrealistic question, or the Governing Body’s doomsday narrative. Millions of children will be subjected to this highly manipulative video propaganda that normalizes global genocide. It is one thing to relish such grisly, psychotic thoughts as an adult, but to gleefully thrust them on young minds is unforgivable.

 

Message 6: Witnesses can’t do anything without Jehovah’s help

The final video is arguably the least shocking, but there are still disturbing undertones that perfectly highlight the helpless, childlike state that is intrinsic to being a Witness.

Philip is a young Witness man who has been accepted to serve as an LDC construction volunteer – in other words, a free laborer for Watchtower’s many construction projects. After all, God may not “dwell in handmade temples” (Acts 17:24), but he sure does need a lot of stuff to be built for him in order to be adequately worshipped.

But there’s a problem. Philip is uncertain of his abilities, and frankly terrified about the assignment he’s been handed. He’s worried that he doesn’t have what it takes to fulfill his duties (even though a willingness to do hard, physical work for free is pretty much all that is required).

Enter Albert, Philip’s group overseer who kindly reassures him that, even though there’s no way he would ordinarily measure up to the task, he can do anything with assistance from God. “With Jehovah’s help, you can be courageous,” says Albert. “Go to work!”

I’m sure many in the convention audience will identify with Philip. Witness indoctrination creates a state of “learned helplessness” in which you become totally reliant on the organization; doubting your own abilities and fearful of what would happen to you if left to fend for yourself.

Only once you escape the Witness mindset do you fully grasp that you can be who you want to be, and do whatever you want to do, if you put your mind to it. As I add my concluding thoughts to this article, it should be noted that there is currently a red convertible sports car hurtling through our solar system on a trajectory that will take it through the asteroid belt. Why? Because humans had the grit, determination and self-belief to defy any who said it couldn’t be done, and made it happen.

A Reason for Optimism

As chilling as this leaked video propaganda may be, there is reason for optimism if you happen to be a thinking Witness, or former Witness, who despairs at the organization’s increasingly cult-like behavior and rhetoric.

Just think: we have access to videos that will be shown at this year’s convention months in advance – before the videos are even finished! This is only possible because there are awakened, conscientious individuals inside Watchtower, with privileged access to sensitive material, who are actively working with JWsurvey.org and other activists. Why are they doing this? Because they recognize that Watchtower is an abusive, controlling organization, and rather than leave in a blaze of glory they are doing what they can, while they can, from the inside.

Yes, it’s appalling to see how ignorant and narrow-minded Watchtower has become in its attitudes toward gay people. I believe many young Witnesses, in particular, are being prodded to reevaluate their beliefs in the face of such blatant bigotry, but this is small consolation if you are a closeted gay or lesbian person sat in the audience when those who would speak up for your rights are being portrayed as vile, shrieking monsters.

And yes, it’s never pleasant to be reminded of how controlling Watchtower is, or see the Governing Body celebrating the ease with which they can subject young minds to their doomsday fear-mongering.

But try to take heart in the knowledge that not everyone in the corridors of bethels around the world agrees with what the Governing Body is saying and doing. For years now there have been awakened operatives deeply entrenched in Watchtower who have been doing what they can to expose the lies, manipulation and abuse.

The Governing Body may be aghast that there are traitors in their midst, but they are only reaping what they have sown. You do not build a captive organization from which it is impossible to leave with dignity without trapping to your bosom those who don’t like you and will do whatever they can to quietly engineer your downfall.

With each leaked document or video, another crack emerges in Watchtower’s ironlike grip, rendering laughable their claims of universal loyalty and obedience. These are exciting times for those like myself who want to see the organization held to account for its cruelty – and not its bewildered, indoctrinated followers in far-flung lands.

On behalf of everyone at JWsurvey, I want to sincerely thank the individuals who have made these and other leaks available to us, despite great personal risks. They are the true heroes of our movement, and I am confident that many more Witnesses will break free from Watchtower’s mental bonds due to their heartwarming bravery.

 

Author of The Reluctant Apostate, now available from Amazon in hardcopy and on Kindle.

 

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151 Responses to Leaked 2018 convention videos celebrate anti-LGBTQ bigotry, unquestioning obedience and doomsday fear-mongering

  1. Longwinded Bastard says:

    Messenger, old bean, didn’t you say you save time by not going back and editing your comments? Hey, it’s never too late to start! lol
    By the by, you do realize ‘synthesizing factual information’ is a contradiction in terms? What were you thinking?

    • messenger says:

      Please tell us what you mean by your address “old bean.”

      You can synthesize fictional information if you wish. You apparently believe factual info cannot be synthesized. But if you do that I don’t believe readers here would care to read those comments. Readers here seem to be concerned about what they and others believe about facts, not fiction.

      Google “synthesizing information, or synthesizing informational text,” read up on it, and then decide for yourself whether the articles you read were only discussing fictional textual information.

  2. tranquillo says:

    messenge,
    you are right and I didn’t miss it. It is simply a circular thought where the Bible is saying something without proving it. It does certainly certify that you were not simply telling your idea, but to me it doesn’t seem to account for proof.

    • messenger says:

      tranquillo

      Well look to what you can observe for proof. You do see that some of us, such as outandabout, look for reasons which includes information not addressed in scripture, to define why they believe the Bible is not inspired by God. For instance, the absence of biblical knowledge about DNA was one reason he’s cited. He asked, “why didn’t God tell us about DNA.” Others here, like messenger, look for evidence that the Bible is inspired. For instance, both outandabout and I have read Genesis chapter 1 verses 2,9,&10. Those three scriptures agree with what scientists’ believe were the first geographical developmental stages of Earth-first a barren land full of volcanoes, molten rock and such, then covered by water, and finally the water was collected into essentially one body of water and land appeared as essentially one body of land, not as several continents like land exists today. I acknowledge the fact that those scriptures I cited agree with science, outandabout overlooks that fact or holds it of very little consequence. Probably he’d never bring it up in a conversation that was not previously started by another addressing the subject. But did we read the same text? Yes. Did we both understand it to reveal the same information about God, and accept it as one among many proofs that God inspired the Bible? No. Did one of us look to it as proof of God while the other failed to do that? Yes.

      So, look to what you can see and what past history has shown. There are over 300 prophecies before Christ’s birth identify Jesus as the Jewish messiah. Some people accept those as another proof the Bible is inspired, some don’t, even though they all read the same text. Those texts were undeniably written prior to Jesus’ birth. No one argues those were written after his birth. So, what the readers read is not the issue. What they believe about what they read is. The Bible claims that belief comes as an allowance and a sign from God that one is acceptance by God. For those not believing they think it’s just a matter of personal choice.

      Included in the idea is what a person wants to do. Isn’t it? You should be able to discern from the comments here that many if not all the commenters here not believing in God want independence from the Bible’s god. Many of those here even mock the Bible’s god which should tell you what they want.

      • Resister says:

        Hey Messenger, old bean! You are too precious. Don’t ever change. Keep doin’ you!

        • Longwinded Bastard says:

          That’s right, messenger. Keep synthesizing those facts!
          PS I went to college too! 🙂
          Anyone else go to college?

      • tranquillo says:

        messenger,
        my answer is still awaiting moderation.
        hope it will pass soon

      • tranquillo says:

        I try posting it again….

        Dear Messenger,
        I find your longwinded scripts fascinating. I find however disturbing that you have said many times to other people that you don’t read their posts as they are too long…. it seems that your message is more important than theirs.
        I suppose that there is no point in saying that the sun and moon were created on the fourth day while light was created on the first day, that there was the water for the flood held somehow above the earth.
        It would also be too long to dig into the translation and the exact meaning of the word we translate as “to create”
        As for the prophecies, I just remind you that we don’t know virtually nothing about Jesus apart from the gospels. And the writers of the gospels on the other hand were very knowledgeable about the prophecies…
        May I ask you one question? Is there anywhere in the Bible a single verse to protect children from abuse? I mean a specific verse in the style Leviticus goes on and on in forbidding having sex with a long list of relatives.
        It was very easy to add just another prohibition there, but the Bible is silent when it comes to the appropriate age to wed a girl. You know what is the tradition in that part of the world…
        Girls were wed very very young, in fact legalizing pedophilia. That is a fact not very often mentioned, but the Word leaves room to that. The Ruler has ruled that pedophilia is fine when it is within the marriage.

  3. Doc Obvious says:

    Jehovah allowed the Australian Royal Commission to investigate the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society for child sexual abuse. Watchtower failed the test from Jehovah. They were not being loyal.

    Remember, Jehovah and Jesus Christ entrusts the domestics to the slave. If the slave is not doing the job and the domestics are being hurt, it will be exposed. There are consequences for not taking care of the domestics.

    Jehovah expects more than just talk from the leadership.

  4. lonio says:

    I am against watchtower’s practices and used to read your articles about it but now you semem very obsessed with homosexuality…I think that’s their problem if they don’t like homosexuality. Since they don’t beat up homos or put them in prison. Besides many homos don’t like straight people either. Even Lady Gaga told that she would hate to have a straight son or daughter, and nobody was shocked with that. Also christianity is incompatible with homosexuality so if homos want a religion they need to find one where homosexuality is allowed instead of asking to send priests to jail because they don’t want to marry them in their churches and disobey God. Both sides are doing harm to people. This is only one side of the story. When we talk about child being raped by elders or catholic priests for ex you will notice that at least half of them are “boys”, boys abused by men. Maybe it will deserve an article about how many religions are protect homos-pedos by religion (for once). Why should homosexuality sounds like the ultimate goal in life to achieve, like they are harmless, nice, and more intelligent than the rest.

  5. Longwinded Bastard says:

    I can still remember how the elders used to operate. They would preach to the ‘flock’ to be “no part of the world” and to avoid materialistic pursuits. Yet, quite a few elders ran their own businesses or held prominent positions in the companies they worked for. Not ALL of them were window washers. lol Some even had summer homes/cottages, boats, and the like. And of course, the young folks in the congregation (like myself) were always a source of cheap labor, and the adults, potential clients or customers. In fact, I still remember, as a kid of 10 years old, when my folks started studying, the elder who studied with us was a life insurance salesman, and – you guessed it – he sold them some life insurance. I presume he made a pitch to every one of his studies. Pretty sleazy, huh? Isn’t that commonly referred to as a “conflict of interest”? Whatever happened to Separation of Church and Profit? 😀 You elders must think you’re pretty damn clever, playing both sides against the middle. Well, a$$holes, it’s not that you’re so clever, just that the rest of the world is so f***ing stupid.
    To change the subject a little, the next watchturd homophobic video may very well look something like this:

  6. Longwinded Bastard says:

    Messenger, you can have my username if you like. You’ve earned it! 😀

  7. Enthusiastic Critic says:

    Isn’t it interesting how some people visit this site to trash homosexuals, yet never utter a single criticism toward pedophiles?

    • Enthusiastic Critic says:

      Whether it involves physical penetration or not, what Jehovass witnesses do to their kids is still child abuse. MIB (like “Men In Black”) – Manipulation Indoctrination Brainwashing. By anyone’s standards, that is abuse. Also by U.N. & others’ definition, violations of Human Rights.
      Where the mind goes, the body tends to follow. Is it any wonder that often this abuse extends into the physical?

  8. Monkeyman says:

    Secret Message to any JWs who still hang off every word uttered by your ‘Governing body’: Those are guys who couldn’t hold down a job at your local car wash.

  9. Resister says:

    Just a little note I’d like to share with my fellow “saboteurs”. If you’re a fan of Hogan’s Heroes, you’ll surely appreciate this. BTW, just Youtubed an old episode of HH, hilarious, highly recommend – Season 1 Episode 2 – “Hold that Tiger”. I think what makes it so hard for the Watchers to figure out who’s springing all the leaks, is the fact that their egos won’t let them believe that any sane, rational human would not want to be a jehovas witness, would not want to be a member of their “elite” club. They are thus blinded. So it is not a monumental task to fool them! Reminds me of Colonel Hogan’s strategy. He pretends to submit to Commandant Klink’s “iron rule”, even hinting at times that he admires Klink’s leadership style, as well as the Nazis’ discipline, and alludes to the idea that he believes the Germans will actually win the war. Klink, being the narcissistic egotist that he is, mostly believes this nonsense, in spite of Hogan’s occasional smartass comments and jokes, and sometimes “unusual” occurrences about the camp. lol This of course allows Hogan and the other POWs (who remain in the camp of their own free will rather than escape, actually receiving sabotage/espionage orders from London itself, via a secret radio) to virtually run amok, in AND out of the camp, conducting their operations quite literally under the Germans’ noses. Klink, etc, simply cannot believe these scruffy-looking ne’er-do-wells could be capable of such things. And why would they engage in such things? They “admire” and “fear” the Nazis! lol It’s like, Oh, if only we were born German, we could be Nazis too! I think the rank-&-file jws, and especially, the “cool” higher-ups whom the R&F admire and aspire to, like some demented high-school caste system, actually believe that ex-Jws are outside the fishbowl gazing in, longing to return, secretly envying all their former “cool” friends and family. Their egos simply will not allow them to compute the fact that WE DON’T LIKE THEM.

    • Resister says:

      …..And when you DO NOT come running back into their arms, in many cases (and I’ve experienced this myself) they will conduct a campaign of persecution against YOU (as can be attested to by the recent murder/suicide situation in Michigan, USA) with the objective of FORCING you to WANT to return to their cesspool of misery. In other words, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy: If you’re not miserable without them, they will do everything they can to MAKE you miserable. Just to satisfy their own demented egos. Like, “NO ONE is allowed to be happy outside our little Cult.” Well, there you go, Misery Loves Company, and will do whatever it takes to get it. Can you think of anything crazier? Just like Adolf Hitler, who, when he committed suicide, had to take his DOG with him.

      • Big B says:

        @ Resister;

        You are not referring to Eva Braun, Hitler’s wife for less than 40 hours, as a “DOG” are you? He definitely did commit suicide with her, whereas Blondie, his German Shepherd, was killed testing the cyanide capsules hours beforehand. Just wondering but a great pun and play on words!

        • Resister says:

          @ Big B

          Ha ha. Never thought of it like that. No, I did mean his actual dog. Wasn’t aware that Blondie was used as a test case, though. Same difference, I think. Adolfo would have taken the dog with him either way. He was demented. And I don’t think he could have stood the idea of Blondie falling into the Allies’ hands and maybe ending up as some G.I.’s pet, or worse, some Bolshevik’s pet, or, worst of all, Patton’s pet (oh, the horror! lol). But I see how you could think I would use such a derogatory term to denote Miss Braun / Mrs. Hitler. After all, she certainly WAS one of his Enablers.

  10. outandabout says:

    Hi messenger……those head honcho’s in the Vatican are not dumb, man. They know they’ve caused a lot of misery over centuries and have had a recent thrashing and lost followers. They have a business to run and to bring back into line and have read the facts concerning Evolution and can see where it’s heading and are not going to be caught with their pants around their ankles looking stupid. They’re taken the initiative. They accept that Darwinian evolution is real and are gonna ride that wave to shore and take whatever comes because they know they have no choice.

    If Denisovan and Neanderthal had never been discovered you would be swearing on the bible that god made the earth just for Us. But they were discovered so you alter you story to suit. Your belief evolves. If accurate dating techniques had not been invented you would use bible chronology and swear the earth was 6 – 10,000 yrs old but now you know different so your beliefs evolve. If science wasn’t making God uncomfortable, he would be all around us but science forces you to place him further and further way out there in the realm of un-provability, safe out of reach from science. Everything evolves, messenger. The only constant is change.

    There are no scientific discoveries or accurate prophecies in the bible. Every claim made is always made after the fact and so vague in it’s interpretation it’s ridiculous. So here’s a task for you, messenger – if the bible is chocked full of prophecies and scientific wonders, it makes sense that there must be many more undiscovered. Why don’t you see if you can find something that hasn’t been discovered yet and really make yourself a household name. The prophesies of Nostradamus appear to make sense also, but on closer examination they fail. For example, he uses the word ‘Hister’ and followers have said he had foreseen the arrival of Hitler but people don’t realize that the word ‘hister’ is an old word for Danube. Rhine and Danube. People see what they want to see. It makes sense that if hundreds of prophecies are made, one will hit home. Just like Russell with 1914. He lucked out and people swooned. A bit like when a hurricane strikes killing thousands of believers and when a baby is pulled from the rubble a miracle is declared.

    • messenger says:

      Outandabout,

      You’d make your point better by laying off it. What you’re doing is demonstrating the factors that motivate us which I shared in my comment to tranquillo on Feb19th. Let me point out that the reason there are no scientific discoveries in the Bible is because science consists of man-made study methods (called disciplines) carried out by men not God. Science is a study. In the Bible is recorded God’s dealings with mankind, not men discovery things using scientific methods.

      There are no scientific discoveries in the Bible, but there is plenty of factual information in the Bible that scientists discovered through their man-made scientific disciplines, years after those truths were given to men by God. In my comment to tranquillo I listed three scriptures in Genesis chapter one that described the Earth’s earliest geographic states which were only discovered by scientists thousands of years after God revealed those to man. You totally disregarded those, and asked for something else. Will it always be something else with you? (Luke 16:31)

      Here, let me add one more Bible gem from that same location. Genesis chapter one, verse six and seven, speak of waters on planet Earth as a mist, with waters below on Earth’s ground, and waters above Earth in the sky. All Bible scholars agree Genesis was written thousands of years ago. The Earth’s geographic and biological stages of development did not even start to become known to men until the 1800s through the study of paleontology with ideas about that discipline not even starting to come formulate until the 1600s. Not too long ago scientists have theorized that in Earth’s early development water was in the atmosphere that rained down on the hot lava covered Earth, creating a mist that returned to the atmosphere forming more rain and a continual rain cycle which eventually cooled the Earth. Scientists believe it took million and millions of years for the Earth to cool from that rain, as the rained poured down in millions of gallons of water per minute. That’s just one factual gem in scripture that mankind did not scientifically theorize until thousands of years later. How did that idea of the waters below on earth, the waters above the Earth, and the mist get on the first page of the Bible? And, if God put it there, why do you think he did it? (Romans 1:20)

      When I was at the university I had a science teacher that would say, “You can’t prove God exists,” everyday he taught the class. So, one day I raised my hand and asked him why is it that the first page of the Bible describes the geographic and biological sequences of Earth’s development essentially as science discovered those stages occurred not too long ago.The teacher then commented that some of the sequence in the Bible was incorrect. I asked him what about it is incorrect. His comment, ” Well the oldest fossils we have are of trilobites.” I guess the man had the deer in the headlights syndrome and could not think to make any sense, even of his own beliefs, much less compare his beliefs to Bible statements

      Outandabout, is the proof of facts that you are suggesting only a reference to what Catholics believe, because as you state, “they are not dumb,” and are you only suggesting that something has been proven without articulating what the actual proof is? Do you have any info to prove your points? Or did you get stuck in the headlights yourself?

      There are hundreds of Bible prophesies that have been fulfilled which contradict your statement that there are no fulfilled Bible prophesies. Let me suggest that you never studied the subject in detail enough to know that, and thus speak in ignorance. Check out Zechariah. Several prophesies there. Check out the one about the savior riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Then read the gospel accounts and read its fulfillment. Read that whole book of Zechariah and just maybe you’ll see that God wants to rule people for their own good. Change God plans to stop is the type of mistreatment WT elders and WT org does to its JWs. The reason the ancient nation was taken captive according to Zech. was that its leaders were unjust and as captives they learned what it was like to be on the receiving side of injustice, rather than the delivering side. Also, any JW member or ex-JW is aware that Isaiah chapter 53 describes multiple events in Jesus’ life. Maybe you should read that before making any more assertions about Bible prophecy that are so easily proven false.

  11. Monkeyman says:

    Resister, nice job. Speaking of the Michigan tragedy, I’m sure the old cronies at watchtower will find a way to put their own sick spin on the story. Like, “See what happens when you don’t follow jehova’s principles (i.e. watchtower’s rules)? See what those ‘mentally-diseased’ apostates do?” Sure, that poor woman obviously had mental problems. Gee, I wonder why?
    There are so many curse words & violent thoughts swimming through my head right now, but I’ll just bite my tongue until Zeus gives the order to release the Kraken.

  12. Monkeyman says:

    Hey, it looks like messenger graduated from college to UNIVERSITY!

  13. Monkeyman says:

    Speaking of releasing the Kraken, Hey Watchtower dudes, take a good look at your future:

    ————————WARNING: Adult Language————————–

  14. outandabout says:

    Hi messenger, so, then, please tell me your most convincing bible scientific fact and your most accurate bible prophecy.

    • messenger says:

      I don’t have a most convincing prophesy because I view all Bible prophecy as convincing. Also, I view statements of fact the Bible makes in the same way. But since I already shared some descriptions of Earth’s development let’s continue there. Following is a quote from Wikipedia describing scientists’ belief of how the Earth developed geologically and biologically. You’ll probably agree it would make no sense for God to describe microscopic organisms to people who lived 3000 years ago. So how about just considering the Hadean and Phanerozoic periods in the following quote. In the latter period notice how the biological sequence that is listed is essentially that same sequence in the following scriptures: Gen 1:11-26. That could be a lucky guess by the Bible writer. But if it is you’d might as well assume lucky guesses must also account for the scriptures describing the Earth’s earliest geological states at Gen 1:2, 6,7, 9, and 10. If that is so those are quite a lot of lucky guesses found on the first page of the book that is the most widely published book in history. And it is also the book that contains a history of the most famous historical character, a man that is arguably the man that had the greatest impact on history, and one who began the world’s largest religion through just three and one half years of work. Quite a feet for that man, and quite a number of lucky guesses on the first page of that book describing that man if all those ideas are just results of guesses.

      “Eon

      Time (mya)

      Description

      Hadean 4,540–4,000 The Earth is formed out of debris around the solar protoplanetary disk. There is no life. Temperatures are extremely hot, with frequent volcanic activity and hellish environments. The atmosphere is nebular. Possible early oceans or bodies of liquid water. The moon is formed around this time, probably due to a protoplanet’s collision into Earth.
      Archean 4,000–2,500 Prokaryote life, the first form of life, emerges at the very beginning of this eon, in a process known as abiogenesis. The continents of Ur, Vaalbara and Kenorland may have been formed around this time. The atmosphere is composed of volcanic and greenhouse gases.
      Proterozoic 2,500–541 Eukaryotes, a more complex form of life, emerge, including some forms of multicellular organisms. Bacteria begin producing oxygen, shaping the third and current of Earth’s atmospheres. Plants, later animals and possibly earlier forms of fungi form around this time. The early and late phases of this eon may have undergone “Snowball Earth” periods, in which all of the planet suffered below-zero temperatures. The early continents of Columbia, Rodinia and Pannotia may have formed around this time, in that order.
      Phanerozoic 541–present Complex life, including vertebrates, begin to dominate the Earth’s ocean in a process known as the Cambrian explosion. Pangaea forms and later dissolves into Laurasia and Gondwana. Gradually, life expands to land and all familiar forms of plants, animals and fungi begin appearing, including annelids, insects and reptiles. Several mass extinctions occur, among which birds, the descendants of dinosaurs, and more recently mammals emerge. Modern animals—including humans—evolve at the most recent phases of this eon.” Wikipedia (History of the Earth)

      The prophecy I like best is the one I gave you, Isaiah chapter 53. Some people believe the scriptures in Daniel’s prophecy that identify the Messiah’s arrival in Jerusalem identified as messiah to be closer to what you’re asking for. You can google “Daniel’s prophecy identifying the messiah’s arrival” and read up on that if you wish.

      Take care!

  15. messenger says:

    A cursory glance revealed a couple words spelled incorrectly in my first paragraph:

    prophesy goes to prophecy

    feet goes to feat

  16. Hi Messenger,

    In regards to Genesis it is been my observation that some with a secular view discard the creation account out of hand. The balance to me seems to be neither to dismiss the material easily nor wind up being overly impressed. For example Genesis is pretty old material, but it has also been the subject of redactions that would pick up later learning and more refined speculation. Genesis probably doesn’t reach the form we see until after 539 BCE. The use of “God” from 1:1 to 2:3, followed by the switch to “Jehovah” at 2:4 is pretty good support for documentary hypothesis.

    It would have been fascinating if Genesis revealed details about the microscopic world, extinct species or broad details about evolution. However the argument that such material would have made no sense to the ancient audience so God didn’t include this, is, in my view, understandable.

    In regards to evolution it is interesting that Genesis sometimes appears to credit the “earth” as the creative force in several places.

    Although some make the sequence argument I don’t see that as very strong. Much of the material wouldn’t make logical sense if the sequence was reordered. One obviously needs an “expanse” before “flying creatures.” On the other hand some elements are out of natural sequence. Fruit trees appear early in Genesis, but in real life they were a later evolutionary development. The domestication of animals involved human interaction, but the author of Genesis has God create them before humans.

    You also see a typical ego-centric-human-earth focus. The real state of the cosmos that is very large is not hinted at. Rather the sun, moon and even distant stars are all there to shine upon the earth.

    In the end I think we can get the authors and redactors of Genesis some credit. They wrote down a combination of observations and some speculations. In some cases, they wrote what the assumed were historical events, that we now know could never have happened — specifically a global flood of Noah dated to 2370 BCE by JWs.

    Cheers,
    -Randy

    • mesenger says:

      I understand your position. it is of course a typical one from someone not believing in supernatural inspiration. To me your thoughts don’t make much sense though. I don’t say that out of spite, but out of reason. Every thought you offered can be refuted easily as irrelevant to the material. For instance, you offer no proof Genesis was only finished in 539 BCE. And what do you mean by finished. You could have claimed it did not come to us in its present form until way late into A.D. ( Anno Domini, Latin for “in the year of our Lord) because it was not translated into English until then. The point is many of your points don’t address what I shared with outandabout, while some do so with very poor arguments. Example: Even if Genesis was not completed until 539 BCE (which you only offer as an assertion ) the thought is irrelevant to my points. The geological and biological timelines were not fashioned until the 1800s A.D. So, what’s your point in making that assertion? Just to say it? Because it’s irrelevant when considering whether the book was inspired containing information scientists did not hypothesize until thousands of years later. I didn’t talk about the expanse or birds there. One of the points I pointed outandabout to is that Genesis refers to the waters, both on the ground and another part of the waters in the sky. Why would that be mentioned at all there if it was just as insignificant as the lakes and clouds we have today, and that were there in the day of Moses? Those waters could allude to what scientists believe that was an extremely significant part of the Earth’s history. Some scientists believe it rained for a hundred million years as the Earth cooled, with the water continually returning to heaven until the Earth was cool enough to form one ocean (one ocean, as Genesis claims the water was brought together in one place). If scientists are correct that could be a significant reason to specifically name those waters in the Genesis account of the Earth’s development. It would also account for why the heavenly luminaries are said to be created in the expanse later. Perhaps they could not be seen from the planet’s surface with all that mist and rain coming down.

      And yes, God could have put your name and the year your were born in Genesis, along with info about micro-organism. But doesn’t each author choose what to include in an authored document? Another irrelevant point you offered is that animals have only been domesticated after man was created, but you offered no proof of that. Also, those scriptures you reference about domesticated animals don’t state when the animals were domesticated, whether before man was created or after his creation. Rather those scriptures state that those types of animals were created before man was created, with no mention of when they became domesticated.

      A protracted argument is futile and I see no need for one, since the inevitability of such would be you believe your arguments, and I would still believe those weak, without merit. A man I used to study with while I was a JW used to ask every study, “Where did Lot get his wife?” Earlier on this site there was much discussion claiming about God accepts incest with ones daughter because a Bible writer wrote Lot was righteous. I see no need for a protracted discussions about such things. Everyone is given by God the privilege of believing what they choose to believe as long as they live.

      But if you ever get any real proof to substantiate the belief that killed your faith, then let’s hear the proof, if you want to share that. I’ve never even seen proof that the evolutionary theory is true. I took anthropology in college, received the grade A in the subject, from a teacher who was an anthropologist and believed the evolutionary theory. But I saw no convincing proof. Not that God could not have used evolution. The point I make is all I’ve seen is that people are drawing conclusion based on similarities and differences between species and weak studies, like the color of a certain moth’s wings change if it lands on a pole for protracted periods. Those were all weak arguments to me.

      Oh, and as far as the WT correctly identifying biblical dates. I might accept some of that again when hell freezes over but certainly not before. And even then I’d need to see the GB members as spirit beings, or Christ instructing me to accept WT dates.

      Take care Randy!

      • Monkeyman says:

        MESSenger, I hereby crown you the King of Passive-Aggressive.

      • Chiafade says:

        You may claim to disagree with watchtower. You may claim to be an exjw. However you are pretty much a jw in everything but title (even that may be untrue). No matter what you say in your claims to disagree with them you speak exactly like them. Jws are fundamentalist christians. You may be a somewhat watered down version of that but there’s little difference.

        When someone leaves the JW organization what do the jw’s say about them? “He just wants to be part of the world to indulge himself/herself independent of jehovah”. Here’s a copy paste of what you said not long ago :
        “Included in the idea is what a person wants to do. Isn’t it? You should be able to discern from the comments here that many if not all the commenters here not believing in God want independence from the Bible’s god. Many of those here even mock the Bible’s god which should tell you what they want.”

      • Monkeyman says:

        BUSTED.

      • Hi Messenger,

        I mention 539 BCE as short-hand to reference the post-exile period for the Jews. I believe the original material of Genesis is much older than that. Only that it is in the post-exile period that we see the OT portion of the Bible being compiled/editted into the form we see today. Part of the proof for this is within the text itself that supports the documentary hypothesis. For these views the scholar I am relying on is Richard Eliot Friedman, author of “Who Wrote the Bible?”

        I mention a few items such as Noah’s flood and creation of “domestic animals” before man only to illustrate the material in Genesis doesn’t fair well under the light of modern knowledge. Both the believer and the non-believer begin with a starting point, such as “this is God’s word” or alternatively “this material was authored by humans with motivations and knowledge limitations like anyone else.”

        My view is the non-God position is not only less expensive (Occam’s Razor) but I also think helps one appreciate the material and get closer to the author(s). So while you point out a fairly reasonable explanation for the use of “domestic animals” (i.e. God created the wild variety of cows and sheep, that were later domesticated), the alternative simply says the author is concerned about cows and sheep and writes in ignorance of the long process of domestication. To the author it would seem cows and sheep had always existed as they were, going back to some creation point.

        Some connect faith with belief in God or the supernatural. In that case, yes, I don’t have faith. However I do have faith in things like people or the ability of science to produce knowledge. In regards to proof, the burden doesn’t rest with the non-believer, such a person is not making an extraordinary claim.

        I appreciate our back and forth banter and if you’re ever in the Phoenix area, I’d welcome a chance to go out for coffee. I think it demonstrates something important to any who visit the site — that Ex-JWs find different individual paths. That some, such as yourself, reject many aspects of JW theology, yet retain belief in God.

        Cheers,
        -Randy
        ps. That’s odd you were asked about where Lot got his wife. As far as I know, the Bible simply doesn’t say. Or did you mean Cain? As in the often asked question “Where did Cain get his wife?”

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