On March 10th 2017, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was called back before The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex Abuse.
Watchtower had previously appeared before the Commission in Case Study 29, where its policies and practices were subjected to a detailed expert analysis. The resulting discoveries made news headlines around the world, and resulted in a damning final report from the Commission that left Watchtower’s credibility in this area in tatters.
Nearly two years later, the Watchtower was called back so that the Commission could analyse what its response to the Commission’s finding had been. Now this hearing has also taken place, and the transcripts and live footage is available for the public to review.
We did not see the kind of jaw dropping spectacle observed during Case Study 29, such as Watchtower’s own expert witness turning on them, or the Commission directly accusing Watchtower’s leadership of deception. However, whilst the testimony was less dramatic, it was certainly no less important, showcasing Watchtower’s woeful response to the recommendations of the Commission and their lack of understanding as to the grave risks their policies posed to the safety of children both inside and outside the congregation.
We are working on a number of articles that will analyse various aspects of what transpired at the Case Study 54 hearing. In the meantime, we kick off proceedings with a 2 hour analysis video hosted on the YouTube channel of JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans.
Follow me on twitter @covertfade
Follow JW Survey on twitter @jwsurvey
Watchtower is a bunch of cowards. No love of neighbor.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwqmWMK7dwtlY0c4VlFDMEMzeWM/view?usp=sharing
Well done, guys. Unfortunately, in Australia there has been very little reporting of Case Study 54. We have heard about the Catholic Church and the Uniting Church, both of which gave apologies to the victims. But silence in the news broadcasts for the Witnesses, who as you mention gave no apologies to the victims.
However, I am sure there are Witnesses like myself who are listening to your Watchtower: In Focus episode to find out some handy topics to spread among our Witness family members and friends. Some of my family and friends have been asking me what I have heard, so now I will be able to tell them.
One matter I learnt from your discussion is that at the completion of a judicial committee meeting the elders are instructed not to tell the sinner about the provision to appeal. I was involved in a judicial meeting and publicly reproved, and it was only through the good will of a compassionate CO (who called the judicial meeting a kangaroo court) that I learnt I could appeal. So I appealed and the decision was reversed, and my judicial discipline was rescinded. How the initial trio of elders made that mistake after praying many times I have no idea (sarcasm intended). It was a faith shattering experience for me, and I always wondered why the initial brothers didn’t tell me about the ability to appeal. But now I know.
Thank you for informing us Witnesses about things which our Governing Body would rather we didn’t know. In the end, I doubt that it’s to their benefit to have so many secrets.
On the issue of the appeals process, one of our viewers kindly pointed out that there is a paragraph in the ks10 instructing elders to briefly explain the appeals process to newly-disfellowshipped ones, so we have edited this part out of the video to avoid any confusion. Our apologies!
@Cedars,
As I wasn’t disfellowshipped but only publicly reproved, that paragraph did not apply to me. Thus, I had no knowledge that I could appeal. With no legal advice available to us, we are at the mercy of the elders who have all the knowledge and power. So when they make mistakes, which they did in my case, they are usually able to get away with it scot free. To get justice using the appeal process is an extremely traumatic experience, and I would be surprised if any Witness could come through it with their faith still intact and their emotional and mental abilities unaffected.
In my case, the elders involved in the judicial committee which wasn’t were able to get their revenge many times over on me and my family: not inviting us to Kingdom Hall dedications, insulting me in front of my young son, not informing me of my wife’s disfellowshipping.
Hardly the spiritual paradise that we hear about in the meetings.
For a long time I thought it must be me, I was in the wrong, or it was the ‘bad’ elders, there were some good ones. But then I heard the case of three elders forging a letter from the GB to keep my friend quiet, and I became aware that there is a culture of bullying in our organization: bully the little sheep and then blame the victims. And this same culture comes through in the cases of child molestation which Watchtower is involved in, and in the ARC.
Now I am awakened.
I don’t think there is an appeal process in the case of reproving. A good CO was fortunate.
@Sarah,
Who knows what is possible in the case of appeals? In worldly courts there are qualified lawyers to support the victims. In our organization there are what? Nobody to support the victims. Nobody! And elders are instructed not to allow anybody else in to the meeting. Is there an appeals process in the case of reproving? Who are we going to ask? Ask an elder and we don’t know if he is lying or not. How can we check?
When the elders wanted me to step down from being a regular pioneer because I only got 839 hours instead of the required 840, I did not know there was an appeal process. I asked if I could appeal their decision, but the elder replied by asking who was I going to appeal to? He said if I wrote to the branch, the branch would just write back to them and they would recommend that I be stepped down from RP. However, two weeks later the elders were at my door asking if I was going to appeal. I did appeal, and the appeal was successful and I was able to continue regular pioneering.
Who knew there was such an appeal process? Nobody knows, it seems. Why is this information hidden from the rank and file, why do elders lie about it and try to deceive us about it? Does this feature of our organization reflect the love and compassion of Christ or the deceit and bullying of the devil?
Also, what does this feature of the organization tell us about the thinking of the men leading us and the culture within our organization? Does it strengthen our faith and give praise to Jehovah, or destroy our faith and confidence in this organization?
I wish all Witnesses would analyze their organization to see what sort of org it is. See things from the victims’ viewpoint. And ask, “What would Jesus do? Would he be acting like our leaders? Is he really in control of this org?”
@ Ricardo;
“What would Jesus do? Would he be acting like our leaders? Is he really in control of this org?”
The answer is obvious to anyone with a clear head and non-biased view of the scriptures. And the answer is (drum roll please) a resounding NO. Jesus is NOT in control of this organization, period. Never has been and never will be.
Jesus is not in control of the Evil Slave, period. Which is why he casts him out into the darkness. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society are the EVIL SLAVE as can be proved by their actions alone.
Now check out this NEW LIGHT under the EVIL SLAVE no longer exists.
Quote from The Watchtower, March 15, 2015, Page 23:
In the illustration of the faithful and discreet slave, Jesus spoke of an evil slave who beat his fellow slaves. Jesus was not there foretelling that an evil slave class would arise. Rather, he was warning the faithful slave not to display the traits of an evil slave. Similarly, in the illustration of the ten virgins, Jesus was not indicating that half of his anointed followers would be like the five foolish virgins. Instead, he was warning his spiritual brothers about what would happen if they lost their sense of vigilance and did not prove to be prepared.
Edited To Add
It would appear they are also setting the stage for major changes to their Faithful and Discreet Slave Parable interpretation in the future.
By including the Faithful & Discreet Slave and calling it “an illustration” in the very same Watchtower where they say they are doing away with interpreting illustrations as types and antitypes, the Society is preparing in case they need to update this teaching in a major way.
Also, the Society now claims they will no longer interpret Parables as applying to certain classes. They already started this with removing the Evil Slave Class.
But, if the Evil Slave is absolutely not a composite class, then why would the Good Slave be a composite class?
Looks to me like they are getting ready to declare that the Faithful Slave was just a parable “warning his spiritual brothers about what would happen if they lost their sense of vigilance and did not prove to be prepared,” which is what that quote above explains.
How convenient, you can’t count them as being the EVIL SLAVE because an EVIL SLAVE class no longer exists! Is it any wonder why the ‘sheeple’ are leaving in droves, why there is no growth in membership after millions of hours preaching this fabrication called ‘the truth’?
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/36myxe/new_light_the_evil_slave_class_no_longer_exists/
@Big B,
That is an interesting thought, but the idea about any major change to the meaning of the faithful and discreet slave is a bridge too far.
The idea that our leadership has been specially chosen by God is a belief dear to the heart of almost every Witness. If this was just explained to be an illustration to, say, keep awake (which I believe it is, I don’t believe Jesus has specially chosen the nuts running our religion) then the religion would collapse. Really. If the thought was that these seven nutters were simply searching the scriptures trying to understand what they mean, with no special interaction of Jesus (which it appears they are doing, if we think the best), then most Witnesses would leave, heart-broken I would expect.
Ricardo they don’t even (always) search the scriptures for new light if they operate like they did in Ray Franz’s day. He said some of them don’t read the Bible much…and that they are not the writers or the ones that come up with new ideas. The gb vote on those ideas, after some other writer comes up with it and it is presented to them. Franz said they receive the idea before the vote and that he was often disappointed because it appeared to him that some members didn’t give it much consideration until they met for vote. They have writers in New York, and also ideas and articles are submitted from their people in other countries. Check out Crisis of Conscience. That’s where Franz claims that.
Also, sister’s write some of the articles in the mags. One sister who worked in New York said she wrote a convention talk, I believe it was the public talk, in addition to magazine articles.
So for at least some of the ideas the gb just votes on not comes up with. Those all didn’t originate with the gb. At least not when R Franz sat with the group.
I think that the organization book used to talk about the appeal process but maybe its not in the new edition?
“Appeal”, “Judicial committee meeting”…..sounds so corporate. Doesn’t sound much like any of this is headed by Jesus at all.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwqmWMK7dwtlY0c4VlFDMEMzeWM/view?usp=sharing
This Case Sudy may force WTBS to openly encourage among its followers a policy of reporting to police with their blessing. If that happens, the horrors in the USA will come to light. Personally I know of 12 specific unreported bonified sexual assaults. Some last for over years. One is a presently serving elder accused of rape. WTBS has been made aware. I’m not telling names because it’s not my personal situation but it’s probably scaring WTBS what may come out. A waterfall!!
Covert Fade – thanks for all your hard work. The video above was so interesting, listening to you all picking things over. So much to take in and think on.
I hadn’t realised that the 2013 inquiry in Victoria, mentioned in the video, had an online transcript available. I’ve just read it and just as angry as I am with all JW nonsense I’ve read/heard over this terrible issue. Interesting that the JW lawyer is a woman!! So women are listened to in the cult when it suits!!
I was surprised that Terrence O’Brien said only 2 cases of abuse were recorded for the state of Victoria in the past 40 years. I found that somehow surprising with 1,006 known abusers in Australia and victims numbering far more (after all an abuser often has more than one victim). Can it be verified that there were only 2 cases or is it known if there were more?
During my brief time as an elder in Melbourne I personally knew of at least half a dozen current cases. That was in 2008-2009. It was the issue that woke me up and when I spoke up about the handling of these cases, among other things, I endured systematic bullying before eventually walking away with PTSD. Happy to say my wife eventually woke up and left too. We both personally know Terry O’Brien, who (was) in my mother-in-laws cong (Minto.) Although a warm, affable chap, there is no excuse for his systematic deception before these commissions in 2013, 2015, and now 2017. But then, at the end of the day, he is deluded and a company man.
Personally I’m just glad to be out of the echo chamber and free from these narcissists. And even happier that my immediate family (wife and two kids) are safely out. Even though we left quietly and have not disassociated, we are being shunned, contrary to Rodney Sphincter’s assertion, particularly by my wife’s family, for the single “sin” of no longer attending meetings. And this despite trying to keep in touch with as many as our former friends as possible.
Of course, the shunning is just a way of keeping people captive, or silencing those who leave in order to quarantine the congregation from the real truth about the cult. In my case it has had the opposite effect and made me more vocal. So now they think I’m an apostate! LOL. Suits me, better to be condemned for making a stand for the right things than accepted by giving tacit approval of an organisation which is becoming a magnet for pedophiles because of its archaic policies and mentality. It is in serious danger of becoming nothing more than a glorified pedophile ring.
And in other news, the Anglicans just expressed “shame” over their 1,000 allegations of child abuse. The numbers involved in Australia’s second largest Christian denomination are revealing. It looks like “Jehovah’s organisation” is giving “false religion” a run for its money. Cmon, keep up Satan!
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-17/anglican-church-ashamed-child-sex-abuse-royal-commission/8363126
Thanks for that info. I’m not surprised at all that the figure was just another lie. How on earth do these deluded people get away with such blatant dishonesty?
Glad though that you and your family are out and safe. It wasn’t until I was out that I discovered what real happiness was.
@Jason,
I am in Brisbane. I was wondering whether you get diagnosed for the PTSD, and have you received treatment? What treatment?
After my dealings with the elders I know there is something wrong in my head, be it PTSD or Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS). Like a silly fool I have continued to go to meetings and continued to get kicked in the guts. I don’t recommend anybody do what I have done and continue enduring. It does your head in and emotionally shatters you.
My concern is who to see about my mental condition, who can understand my experiences? What worldly person can relate to what I have been through?
Hi Ricardo,
Yes, it is a unique experience and a challenge getting the right help. I eventually saw my GP who diagnosed me with PTSD and recommended a psychologist. At first I didn’t want to see one, still feeling a sense of loyalty to “Jehovah’s organisation” and not wanting to betray the elder confidentiality I still felt bound by. I still went to meetings for the next couple of years, (although we moved congs) and that was manageable for a while, but eventually the cognitive dissonance got too much and I even felt suicidal for a brief time. That’s when I finally decided to leave, some serious research, and got some professional help. It was tricky because the psychologist was not familiar with JWs, and there were other complications too. It did help a little, but the biggest relief came from leaving the organisation. I’d had depression for years as a JW, but that lifted once I left. Of course, everybody’s situation is different and I can’t give advice, I just know what worked for me. I was fortunate to be able to leave with my wife and kids, and reconnect with some old friends too which helped. I also don’t have much family who are JWs – I was a ring in 20 years ago. I just have the one sister, who still goes to occasional meetings but doesn’t believe a word of it. We have lost 95% of our JW friends though, and it has been a very lonely process at times. Reading sites like this has helped, as well as some other online blogs and ex-witness communities, and the ex-JW podcast, which is brilliant. Researching Watchtower’s true history also helps – “Crisis of Conscience”, “In Search of Christian Freedom” and “Apocolypse Delayed” are great books. I’ve got Lloyd’s new book too but I haven’t had time to read it yet.
I’d be happy to chat with you if you want to email me – eab1984@optusnet.com.au. We know some who are happy where they are, even knowing what they know, and we certainly miss the community and some aspects of the life we led. But it depends on what you can live with and what works for you. I know that Paul Grundy suggests something similar on JWfacts.com, and he also recommends cognitive behaviour therapy to deal with the after effects of guilt and fear, amongst other things. I would be careful not to make any rash or final decisions until you’ve had a chance to really think things through. But obviously the PTSD needs to be addressed so I would recommend seeing your local GP. Just having somebody to talk to who will listen without judgement can help, and often provide an objective viewpoint. That’s where I found my psychologist helpful. If you do decide to leave, put together an exit strategy and try to build up a support network outside of the organisation to help with the transition. Maybe join a local sports club or community group – even if it’s just a local walking group or book club or something. Or if you want something more meaningful, perhaps Amnesty International or the Wilderness Society or something along those lines – something you can believe in and where you can meet new people with a common cause. It’s up to you, but don’t rush and give it some thought.
Jason.
One thing I can suggest is that you seek out a therapist who has experience working with people in cults and abusive relationships.
I beieve that Steve Hassan’s website helps people find experienced therapists in the States, not sure if they have connections in other countries as well. https://freedomofmind.com//
WS
Thanks Jason, I appreciate that advice. Preparing an exit strategy is good to think about. I don’t know how many professionals would have experience with cults here, WS, but that is also a worthy goal. Thanks for sharing.
I was so ill with PTSD that even the arrival of a letter gave me palpitations. I didn’t have enough money to ask for much help but one therapist said I was to ask myself WHY such little things produced panic. I panic before opening my email etc.
This analysis help me to see my fears were irrational although based on previous shocks. I’m trying to be calmer and rational but unconscious fears arise all the time. It’s a battle but I hope to win.
Hi Sarah I so resonated with your reaction to things. I comment on this site as a form of therapy as generally everyone is respectful. I still cannot pick up the phone or answer my front door. It is crazy I know but all the trauma we had to endure will come back for a return visit (uninvited) and we have to deal with these things bit by bit. I don’t think in all honesty that it ever leaves you but we get stronger with every passing year and every demon we face. What I find intriguing now is the silent offensive my husband’s family have been using has suddenly thawed . They are cloaking themselves with the smarmy charm but it won’t wash with me it is a load of pigswill . You have to remind yourselves from time to time of the damage these people did and how you get lower than a snakes belly at times. There is no going back. I have not read much on PTSD but I reckon it is the mind and bodies’ healing mechanism that tries to reconcile truly threatening experiences we have survived. Panic is traumatic in itself but part of the override to get us away from danger. Hope my thoughts help. Cheers Ruthlee
I would really recomend watching Cedars U Tube film on preparing an exit strategy for leaving jws..it helped me immensely…I followed the guidance and have not been to meetings or on the ministry for a year and a half..my spouse and grown children are still ‘in’ and continually ask me to return..I dont get involved in debate. .and I have to say the mental freedom I experienced at first was amazing..and it just gets better…I talk to my Sister who has also faded and this site has helped so much…take yourself out of this merry go round…use anything for a reason to not attend all of the meetings..Illness..relocate..anything…Im thinking of you and wish you all the best..Peace and Joy to you.
The previous comment was particularly for Ricardo.
“better to be condemned for making a stand for the right things than accepted by giving tacit approval of an organisation which is becoming a magnet for pedophiles”
I appreciated your comment. Relates to my experience as an elder too.
WS
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwqmWMK7dwtlY0c4VlFDMEMzeWM/view?usp=sharing
So the Anglicans have about 3.5 mill. followers in Aust. and 1000 abuse cases while WT has 60,000 followers with 1,000 abuse cases.
And still it’s the one true religion. Sad and pathetic. Those poor people.
This program was very well done, I appreciate all of the insights and comments. Especially the remarks concerning the WT not wanting to admit that a pedophile cannot be cured, even by getting reproved by JW elders. (Sarcasm intended.)
One underlying cause of the JW mindset (in my opinion), I have never seen addressed. That is, in the attitude of the Bible and large sections of world society in general, towards ownership of people.
There is never any mention or acknowledgement of a sovereign right of humans to view their life and body as their own property.
Instead, religious clergy and hierarchies’ default starting position is to assume that there’s a natural right to demand obedience. That a human’s own preferences and decisions are to be considered last and least, if at all. That a human has no obligation to care and improvement of self whatsoever, but a complete obligation to sacrifice that self to the survival and promotion of whatever brand of God’s bullies he may find himself.
An example of this is seen in most schools or kindergartens (here in the U.S.) that I have experience with. A child refusing to share a toy that another child is demanding to play with, is told by his parent or teacher that he must share the toy, even if it’s an object that the child was given and considers his own property. His ownership is invalidated, and he’s in effect taught that he may not own or control property. That anyone can appear and demand he surrender what he considered his own, and he has no right to refuse.
A person who abuses a child in any way, has this mindset and attitude – that the child does not have a right or a say in what is going to be done to him. An abuser does not consider that a child has any more right than a dog or cat to control his body.
A child who is taught that other people have no rights or sovereignty over their body, grows into an adult who sees nothing wrong with ignoring boundaries of another human being.
This disrespect is blatant in the WT organization, and of course, all religions that claim that God wants them to translate and administrate his word. The control they insist on retaining, denies a person the right to consider his own self as belonging to himself. They use unending mind-control programs with the intent of instilling self-doubt, so that the victim is ever dependent, and therefore OWNED.
I personally went into the JWs with no inkling of what awaited me as far as destruction of my own will. I had a lot of cognitive dissonance that I suppressed, any time that “independent thinking” was referred to as bad and sinful. The training is apparent and heavy-handed for a woman, when repeatedly hearing that she has no right before Jehovah to refuse to submit. Being submissive of her time and work for the organization, being submissive to her husband in every aspect of life including sexually, is the only way to receive acceptance and recognition. By becoming nothing, she becomes something.
So I made the connection while watching the ARC in 2015 and this latest follow-up in March 2017. The WT, by creating the policies and procedures for their judicial committee to deal with the “sin” of an abuser against a victim, will not admit that the abuser trespassed upon the rights of the victim. However the facts are used that a committee gathers, their decision will always reflect the fundamental belief that their religion has a right of ownership over the abuser and the abuser’s victim. Because God says they do, right?
Very well said Iownmylife, I could not agree more, where is “free will” when you are being constantly being the subject of “positive peer pressure”?(as mentioned on the latest JW.org Video)
This and other religious organizations remind me of brokers or middle men who cream a percentage of your insurance or rental payments. You stand alone before God at judgement day, where will they be then?
It was quite clear to this commission that JW.org over legalizes everything to their own downfall.
They are trying to be something that they are not and then they use the legal system to try and support their outrageous rules when the wheels fall off.
It would be a lot better for all who have had the misfortune of coming into contact with this US Corporation if they stopped playing with peoples lives and let them decide if they want to pursue a career, get married, have a family, decide which medical procedures are acceptable etc..
Actually Iown My Life you do own it. And so does everyone else. As Rodger Goode stated you stand before God on judgment day, and WT will not stand with you. If you believe in Christ he will. But now your choice to do anything that society and your government does not make you do is yours. The Bible, and many religious people and groups that follow it never claimed or now claim anything different than that. The rules God gives are to be followed if you believe in him and want the next life. Everyone born gets this life. Not even WT argues that. This life is a free gift.
I’ve found that most who comment on this site believe WT’s rules are not God’s rules, as expressed in the Bible. WT got us to follow its rules by convincing us that it is God’s sole spokes group on Earth, along with all people who follow it. Once we believed that its rules ruled. We did until we no longer believed.
Being a free agent you have to decide what to believe now. If God wanted to he would make us follow, but that’s not his decision. It never has been his decision to make us follow him. Not when we were with WT, not now.
Kind of odd that when I was appointed as an MS years ago (not an MS anymore) the elders would tell you those brothers who could not say prayer or be with children. I looked up these brothers and could only find one who was a registered sex offender which must mean the others were not brought up to the authorities (policy) and must be within an internal database. If I knew then what I knew now I would have made comments about having to contact the authorities as the state in which this ocurred requires the policy to be notified.
My Father told me…No one has the right to impose their concience etc. on a person…We are all individuals…Not even a religion…he would tell the elders of the little cong. we went to…went they get appted…they proceed to put on spurs and ride the sheep ….hence, a good many sheep in that cong as well as most others…wool looked mighty tattered…not to say much about their self worth, esteem etc…..But that serves the Orgys purpose…if we have no self worth…we will cower to them, do their bidding etc…in the hopes of having…”Jehovah’s approval”… which has nothing to do with His approval…just means we have been foxed by them…left our brain at the door or outside the dr to the KH….Enter…close our eyes and say…do with us as you see fit…and we will pay you to do it…and proceed to take our veg cart and try to convince other folks to do the same….so the Jw Ogers can proceed to twist and draw up… their poly slax …and abuse the sheep in any way shape or form….Because…They have the “spirit”z Uh yeah…wtevs…They mk me so disgusted, I can not even bring myelf to wtch one of their orgy videos! Mks me MAD!!!! So thanx John Cedars and all who proceed to do all this for us… Instead of watchin JW.org videos…I watch..”Brother Nathaniel”…he has many gd points and interesting thoughts…I am seriously thinking of requesting him to do a video on his view of Jw. org to! ;) He loves to lambast the Jewish Religion…see what he will come up with as to Jw.org.
That… is…. a… lot… of…. …. ….. ……. lol
Thank you all once again for your thoughts on case study 54, it’s appreciated. After watching the live stream from the arc, i had to bring myself to watch it again on the weekend because i couldn’t quite believe what I was witnessing. Lying yet again after swearing on their silver sword made me feel physically sick. Slightly off point, I managered to get through to my parents in Aust. this week after 12 months. & I was told to quote them :- “the commission is persecuting the brothers, but they are working with them”. “Daniels prophecy is being fulfilled because the world is getting more wicked so child abusers are sneaking into the congregations” and “I’m denigrating Jehovah’s org. by even mentioning the commission” and “we don’t know, we don’t care, we don’t want to know & we don’t need to know” and the creme de la creme “Jehovah’s Witnesses never lie” and then they hung up on me. I’m speechless.
@Robyn — The persecution cop-out is a favorite by Watchtower. The answer is that the commission is trying to get to the bottom of things and Watchtower does not like the Colonoscopy and the results the ARC is finding. Watchtower has a huge bug up their ass and it is going to take some major operation to clear it. In addition, there are other case studies on other institutions that have similar problems but are more pro-active in rectifying the matter. Watchtower’s limitations and egotistical attitude have been put on the spotlight and they cannot do anything but allow the process to complete.
Thanks for making me laugh Doc Obvious. So, your point is that other churches do it, but Watchtower refuses to rectify the rectum?
Yes. Something like that. A good proctologist will do the trick. Just make sure you have the right tools to get that bug out of their whatsa.
Here is a great proctologist. His name is Peter M. Kaye, M.D. His website is at http://www.peterkayemd.com
http://www.peterkayemd.com
Ah, Robyn Bass,
So sorry to hear how your family responded. I have family that has done the same to me. At first, it made me very angry but I realized they have been completely deluded. I have made it my plan to be there for them when the WT falls crashing to the ground with Jesus standing over them wielding his sword saying “How dare they?”. Your family and mine will need someone to explain to them what has happened and how you knew it was going to happen. Check out a website by Robert King called “Jehovah is King”. Lots and lots of people are being woke up with that information. Hang in there with your family, I know you still love them as I still love mine.
Never a JW again. Yes, I initially could of felt this of my very elderly parents, but my sister & bro.in law have been in Sydney Bethal for 15 years, he a high up elder & head of a dept. before that in bethel in Japan for 4 years, and now for the past couple of years head (big cheese) of all the hall building projects & maintance programmes for all Queensland & Northern NSW. They are well known everywhere, as are my parents. Someone mentioned Wayne Hunt the C/O, I grew up with him & knew he was a C/O & knew all his family. My bro.in law would almost certainly have sat on child sex abuse cases judicial committees. I faded 30 years ago & live in the UK & have always had a good relationship with all my JW family. This time last year I stumbled upon the arc & asked them about it. I’ve never said or done one thing out of place towards their religion & have never researched anything. They immediately cut me off and I’ve not being able to contact them since, despite my numerous e mails, cards, letters & personal video. Recently I have heard from my non JW Aunty that my father has been in hospital & is very poorly, she phoned my mother to ask if I had been told, my mother said “No, & I won’t be telling her either”. With the help of lloyd Evans & numerous other web sites & done the research I’d never done and I now realize this religion of my youth is a cult & a nasty one at that. I’m proud to say I now know more about the JW’s than any of my family.
It seems to me that the Watchtower Society is becoming more virulent and polarizing. Thus as you mention 30 years with no issue and now suddenly being shunned.
Since we now live in the Information Age, the Watchtower is being shown up for what they really are and thus are lashing out at all and any perceived dissenters.
I find it ironic that their condition and responses seems to fit many biblical passages:
“the man of lawlessness is revealed…He will oppose and will exalt himself…proclaiming himself to be God.”
“The scarlet beast and his ten horns all hate the prostitute. They will strip her naked”
“the servant is evil…and he begins beating the other servants”
The Watchtower applies these passages to others, but if the shoe fits…
WS
Ah Robyn, how can a mother do that? Jehovah makes the sun shine on good and bad alike. If he didn’t I suspect JWs would be under a cloud. It’s an interesting reaction to the Commission though. Let’s bury our heads in the sand.
And thanks to Ruthlee, above. Yes, helpful. I make myself do things which are hard to face and it’s getting easier. Love to both of you.
Well perhaps the R&F Jehovahs Witnesses don’t lie, Robyn, but anyone above them surely has to lie in order to keep the charade going.
@Robyn,
It is one of the most frustrating things to talk to the brothers and sisters in the congregation about the Royal Commission. Many have such a fragile faith that they are unable to face the facts of what is happening. Another infuriating answer they give is that Jehovah will sort it out. When I reply that it has nothing to do with Jehovah but totally to do with the Governing Body who doesn’t want to change anything, even though it is easy for the GB to fix it up, most Witnesses don’t want to talk further about it.
Well done that you tried. As Witnesses we are told that our sins will catch us up eventually, and no doubt our Governing Body’s sins will catch them up. Jehovah’s Witnesses never lie? Really? Obviously your family have not seen behind the curtain of this org. When they do, they will likely come running to you.
Have you seen any Witness’ carts in your area? Try talking to the Witnesses at the carts about the Royal Commission. They are sitting ducks. It’s not as if they are going to run away somewhere and leave their cart behind to get away from you.
I remember parents going to the Kingdom Hall restrooms with their kids to discipline them. Some of the kids yelled and screamed when they were being spanked by their parents. It did not sound appropriate. I have decided that when an event like this occurs, I will call the authorities and explain that excessive spanking is being done in the Kingdom Hall.
I got smacked and pricked with safety pin a LOT whenever I acted up during meetings and look how I turned out! regular pioneer but slowly ‘awaking’ :o
To be honest I feel a bit mean but do find it funny when kids are dragged screaming and kicking to the parents room, especially when they start yelling ‘Jehovah help me!’ as the door closes.
@Candace,
I haven’t noticed you before, but you sound interesting. Are you still pioneering? Which country are you in? What caused you to start ‘awaking’?
Completely unrelated to the subject but don’t know where to post this. Overheard March JW broadcast where Stephen Lett stated that no member donations were used in the construction of the new headquarters. All construction costs were paid by the sale of the Brooklyn properties. I thought that the selling of the Brooklyn properties took place within the last 6 months to 1 year. Are my dates completely wrong or was this another “Lettism”.
Alone in MD
The Brooklyn properties have been selling off gradually for quite a few years. Here is a NY Times article on the subject: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/realestate/jehovahs-witnesses-brooklyn-headquarters-for-sale.html
As referenced in the article, one building alone, the 360 Furman Street building, sold for over 200 million back in 2004.
JR
I just want to say thank you for this, and especially to Paul Grundy. My husband and I went to Sydney. We are the ones sitting directly behind Angus Stewart oops. It was important for us to be there for our reasons, and for the ones who suffered because of them, and who aren’t alive now. They are cruel, and it was wonderful to hear the Commisioner validate this. In fact, I am sure that all of the ARC team feel the same. I was able to tell my story to Commisioner Bob Atkinson who was extremely caring and compassionate. Something I had never had from any Witness. I was shocked to see how many witnesses were there. I asked them why they were there with their Watchtowers, and not being loyal to them and thus to God. They said that it is still the truth and waiting on Jehovah and just a few of them etc etc. Before Sphinx and co could do a runner I emotionally presented them a tract lol, it was a scripture Matt 18.6 -“any one who stumbles my little ones it would be better for them to have a mill stone around their necks and thrown into the depths of the sea”. It is all I could think to do and I had to do something. Thank you for all the support given from everyone overseas it made a great impact.
Di,
Good on you, I wish that I could have gone to the Commission too but we live on the Sunshine Coast in Qld. We also spoke to Bob Atkinson in Brisbane & he was very empathetic. He knew our family from when he worked at Noosa Heads Police Station. I remembered him very well from when he had to deal with the Sian Kingy case & that case affected him so greatly. The whole of the Coast was deeply affected by it.
Jason Evans,
Thank you for your comment, it was really heartfelt. You described your situation so well. I can relate to everything that you went through as we felt the same way. I went through the same emotional rollercoaster in the first 2 years of awakening to the con. It has all of the elements of grief. When you have invested your whole mind & emotions into something only to realise & wake up to the fact that you’re in an emotionally & spiritually abusive relationship, its devastating.
I had doubts from the beginning but suppressed them because of the grief of our daughters death. So I wanted to believe it so much but the more doubts that surfaced the more depressed I became.
Since leaving I’ve had to have therapy too. My therapist is good & specialises in family dynamics but he understood the nature of the religion as well in a similar context.
I cried a lot. I can only say that it is a painful journey leaving a religion that consumes you but now I feel fine & am ready to get on to my new path in life. My husband & I feel more contented & humbled. We don’t feel judgemental like we had become when we converted 20 years ago. I didn’t like what I was becoming because it went against my nature to look down on others but that’s how you get.
The first step that I suggest to people is to step out of the bubble of any abusive/manipulative situation so that you can think clearly without the abusers getting into your head & making you believe that its you with the problem. We need to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt.
Hi Gwen and Jason, I live on the Sunshine Coast too :) I also spoke about Sian and our incredibly special community to Commisioner Bob. He also knew 2 of my close Witness friends who have passed away. I was so privledged to be able to speak and debrief with him. I pretty much struggle every day with it all. One thing is, I just can’t get over how mean spirited they seem to me to be and seemingly devoid of compassion and love, just to be right. I think it is because they still come from a place of woe to the pregnant woman in the last days, a patriarchal system that puts children last in the family and the need for children to be inculcated and disciplined in the truth and of course the consequences of changing. Even when the Commisioners seem so concerned and caring they don’t get it. They might have to sell some more and pay for their hard attitudes and their 2 Witness and other rules, if the ‘sorry’ and redress is too hard. Maybe they can ask for the congregants to donate to uphold their God’s Spirit driven decisions that go against our Human Rights, which includes the basic rights of Children.
Oh sweet Di! Matt 18:6 was applicable and ever so glad you handed them that reminder of Jesus.
They have been the cause of many stumbling away from the bible, but many have found that the stumbling has caused them to search and read the scriptures without the GB interference.
My heart and prayers go out to all the victims, and those victims still in the WT control organization which does nothing but create hatred between families, victims and seems to be for the criminals.
Its just a matter of time.
Thanks CF, JR, and Cedars….you three work really hard and do so much…know we all appreciate it. I viewed the video earlier and plan on viewing it again tomorrow.
@Messenger,
Where you been, man? We need your words of wisdom here too. This is up your alley, something legal, one of the subjects you excel in. Don’t be shy.
Ricardo
I’ve had to take care of some family problems for the last week or so. I haven’t seen the posted video yet, unless its the same one that was posted previously as a smaller version. I’ll check the video out tonight. I thought I’d enjoy checking out what you guys were saying first.
And as a reminder, if I ever fail to respond to your comment its not on purpose. When making comments I never check the box to be notified by email if any future comments post. I rarely check that email address, and I don’t want a lot of messages posted there for me to sort through.
If I fail to answer on one article, just catch me on another article.
Your exposure to jerk elders might help you deal more easily with the realization that WT has been misleading us. Imagine what it is like for some of these nice people who have learned that, but were not aware of elder bullying and corruption. You can hear it (see it) in their comments. Some are/were devastated.
Like me, you always knew many, maybe most or even practically all elders are unethical. Imagine what it was like for friends who didn’t know that, because the bullying is only directed at some of us. When the friends that didn’t know what we knew about elders learned what we now know about the org., their world crashed.
Better for a millstone to be tied around ones neck and….than to cause that. Its not my place to judge, but working for Christ it is my place to expose and warn. I don’t know what Christ will do with any of them, but again I suggest you be very careful not to let them mislead you by causing you to sin against God . We are in a very dangerous place. Be careful brother.
@Messenger,
Great attempt to be positive, man. I didn’t think there was anything positive to be found in my experiences, but now I have a grand new way of looking at things.
Actually, I don’t like to think about how the other people who come to our realization must feel, because it must be very, very dreadful. It breaks my heart.
I hope not to sin against God, messenger. I don’t quite know what you mean by that. I will try hard not to punch any of the mongrel elders, but even if I lost control and let my righteous indignation flow (as did Jesus with a whip twice, and my favourite character Nehemiah) I do not think it would be a sin against God. But I am thankful for your encouragement because, believe it or not, it is almost the only encouragement I get. My shepherds have abandoned me.
Good to hear you, Messenger. Keep on sharing your wisdom with those of us who appreciate it.
Anyone who has been sexually abused as a child knows that
the feeling of humiliation, of being violated, used for another’s
perverted pleasure is never erased from the mind.
It’s to be expected then, that a JW child victim on becoming
an adult, old enough to make an independent decision. Would
have the need to dis associate themselves from the scene, as it
were, of their disturbing experiences. Being in the same room
as their abuser ( Still there because of the policy of concealment
that protects the guilty but not the innocent victim), would
constantly trigger bad memories. It would be traumatic !
The consequences of their D,A, would mean being cut off
from family and friends, leaving them isolated. compounding
their distress. It’s cruel isn’t it ? Asked judge mcLelland,
repeatedly, addressing the Aussie branch reps, But no reply
forth coming. ( They do not answer direct questions, directly)–>
Instead a further slur on the victims was made by Rodney Spinks.
“It’s they who have shunned us” was his heartless reply./
What’s shocking here is their twisted reasoning “That its they
who are receiving the persecution”. B,S.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwqmWMK7dwtlY0c4VlFDMEMzeWM/view?usp=sharing
The video was well done and informative. So much excellent information. I haven’t thoroughly digested it yet but I took a couple notes I might comment on. O’Brien commented on Isaiah speaking of Jehovah as our statute giver. If they were to apologize for their mishandling of the abuse cases (for their warped application of scriptures) do they think they would be saying Jehovah is wrong? It doesn’t jive with their willingness to adjust doctrine at will and yet stubbornly refuse to make adjustments that would show loving kindness. Their claim of obedience is just an excuse. Do they really believe this is an example of obeying God instead of men? That obeying mans law to protect children is somehow in conflict with God’s law?
I would ask how warped can these men be but that is evidenced by their thought that they are the ones being persecuted. An example of how delusional and prejudiced people can be…information about some of the abuse court cases was shared with a witness who proceeded to say well you can’t believe the media. They were reminded that these were court documents. Again they insisted the court documents can be lies. The person speaking of the cases said if this were about some other religion you’d be all over this…end of conversation. I never cease to be astonished by such thinking and yet some years back that could have been me.
Continuing on, Spinks made a comment about writing a letter of disassociation. Never ever, ever write that letter. That is all they need to put the blame on you no matter your reason. Besides this is their game, who says we have play? Why should their rules matter?
The lie told about persons qualifying for baptism would be ones nearing adulthood was surely bold. It takes little effort to see the evidence that they are promoting baptism of increasingly younger and younger children. In the last few years we have heard of 9 and 10 year olds being baptized.
If lies to the commission can be punishable by prison that could explain why O’Brien has been reassigned out of the country. He has been caught in lies so blatant I am again astonished.
Final thought, they may be against group therapy because in that setting out would come all their dirty laundry. And someone there may feel obliged to contact the authorities.
The ARC Hearings have been quite informative. At times unbelievable even incomprehensible. But the information is priceless.
Regards
Right Eyes Open. Why should their rules matter? I also suggest not writing a DA letter, not meeting with them to discuss your beliefs unless YOU want to. I’ve read they can DF you if you don’t meet for a JC, but from my perspective I don’t need their fellowship. Everyone make your decision, but that’s mine. Its like Eyes Open’s decision but takes it a step further. No pokemons in my business please. Thought police are banned. And the dudes with badges I wish I could turn over to Twisted Sister for her to educate, if that were possible, and if they’d listen.
Could it be so that the gb only teaches the Bible? I’ve been listening to several preachers on the radio now for quite some time, and guess what? They only preach the Bible. WT lied to us about all of them not doing so. Check it out yourself.
Most of WT’s preaching is about the JW ones they believe are going to heaven, and how ancient scriptures refer to that JW group. That’s probably the reason they preach the kingdom more than they preach Christ. They preach they are the kingdom. So they preach themselves. Interesting how the hand picked apostles of Jesus never did that. Interesting how the preachers I’ve heard on the radio don’t do that either. Interesting how WT claims it has all these anointed members, but that all anointed members except 7 will get kicked down the road if they don’t bow to the seven and accept every change in decision making the seven make. Interesting how only the seven are authority over all Christ’s belongings, people, money and property.
I claim to have been contacted, but don’t put me with their anointed group. If its not a false prophet it leans to close to that for me to attach to. Time will reveal whose who to all persons.
@Messenger,
I’ve been wanting to ask you, so will take the chance here after your comment: What was God wanting to tell you when you were contacted? Is there some message there that others can benefit from?
@Ricardo
When it first happened I didn’t know why it had. I wondered why it happened to me, after the first dream came true. I thought I’m no leader, why would God contact me, and show me what he did. It took me a while to figure it out. By the time the final dream happened I figureded it out.
In the first dream I saw the worst condition, or the most terrible thing happen to me that ever has. It was different than other dreams, but I didn’t believe it would happen, because I believed like others here do then. Even though I didn’t believe it unlike all other dreams I took one step in hopes to prevent the outcome, just in case. But I didn’t believe God contacted people then. A few years later it began to materialize and I told others about it at that time. When the really bad part happened I knew for sure it wasn’t a coincidence, but I still didn’t know why I was shown my future.
But days after the incident I would prayed to God and asked him to see something in my sleep. I did that several times, and each time I went to sleep I had dreams about what I asked for. During the last dream I awoke, and while awake I saw something that was either a vision planted in my brain or something that could travel through multiple dimensions. It looked like the latter. It didn’t look like a vision, because I saw the room I was in just as it was with the object that looked just as real and solid as the furniture.
What I think happened is that God knows how I think. God knew I might have doubted that he was answering my prayers, so he gave me the first dream some five years before I asked him as confirmation my prayers five years latter were answered. The first one was a confirmation that the others were not coincidental dreams. Because on my own I could not see the future in such detail as to rule out coincidence. The last dreamed confirmed God’s presence also, because of the object that presented itself.
As far as the message. God was helping me and comforting me through a personal problem. He was letting me know how much he cared for me as a person. He was letting me know everything will be alright, that I will be in his future, and so will everything I asked him for.
In the last dream I was standing up, not walking, but floating down to the ground as if on an invisible and very smooth operating escalator. Only in this one did I get scared, when I saw something on the ground, and then I yelled Jehovah real loud. As soon as I did that I was pulled back up into the sky at the same angle I had been descending in. I immediately opened my eyes and right over my chest, just a few inches away, fairly close to my head, was an object. It looked like a blanket my wife owned that had variations God’s Bible names written all over it in Hebrew. But this object did not have any writing on it, and parts of it glowed an orange/red color, but without lighting up the room. I was laying on my back, and as soon as I woke it moved away from me up towards the ceiling and to my left, a few feet away. It hung suspended there. The thought in my brain was that it had put the dreams in my head. It appeared to be acknowledging that thought. After I looked at it thinking that thought for a while it shot up through the ceiling real fast. When this thing wasn’t stationary it moved real fast. No other dreams like those after that. It seems like the message it delivered was complete.
As far as a message for others, only my testimony that God really exists. As far as a message for me, it was I’ll be with God, other people will be alive, everything will eventually be ok. And In the dreams I had there was no sadness, even when remembering death there was no sadness. There I was looking at death like an experience, but the sadness was no longer attached to it.
The part of the world I saw looked nice. The people were happy. I was not jumping up and down with happiness; I was content. Content and at peace is the best way to put it.
@Messenger,
That was a marvellous message for you. God can do anything, so I am sure that sending you a personal message is not out of the question. You can really appreciate that experience.
I hope that future comes true and I can meet you there. Your words certainly comfort me and help me look at things differently.
Messenger. I know this is WT’s interpretation of these things, but do you have any connection with spiritism? Any books, objects etc? It’s somewhat dangerous. Witnesses are right when they quote Acts where the converts destroyed their books of magic etc., as being the thing to do.
Well, Sarah, I’ve gotta tell you…there’s something going on with that messenger guy. And just look at the name he goes by…..the beginnings of the word ‘messiah’. Hmmm. It’s starting to come into focus now…..
Personally, I think that if people believe in signs from God and are looking for them, then they will find them. Just as various people report having near death experiences that are consistent with their preconceived religious points of view. So much of our perception of “reality” is based on our own interpretation. If you want to believe a dream, or deja vu, or an event is a sign from God, then that’s how you will see it. If you want to believe it is demonic possession then that’s they way you will see it. If you believe it nothing more than strange coincidence, then that’s what you will see.
WS
Really, I’d like to know what about that last comment got caught in the filters. Maybe it’s the IP address I am using.
WS
Nope, that one got through so it’s not the IP address.
And now my comment just disappeared. The gist of it was that people will interpret things the way they are predisposed to do so. Whether they want to assume divine source or coincidence or some other cause.
(Let’s see if that will pass the ultra-sensitive filter settings)
WS
Just putting this out there Messenger It is a bit off site rules so may not be published. I got my calling literally I heard my name being called (my real one ) not ruthlee It was so clear and no I have not heard voices or anything else since. it was a personal invitation. So I know there is no going back to jdubland but I am on my journey to the far country. Cheers Ruthlee
@Winston
Seeing your future is no interpretation. Hearing your name called without a visible audio source present is not an interpretation. Those are facts. You don’t have to believe them, and no one asks you to.
On this site I’ve never debated interpretations, opinions, or beliefs. I am open to debating facts. And, as you’ve seen, I’ve done so more than once. I’m always open to that.
Dwelling on opinions leads no where. It may be nice for some as a pass time, but its not something I spend my time with. I’ve found most people that guess at answers (opinions) to anything, guess wrong almost all the time. And I’ve had enough experience observing people do that. I’ve taught about 80,000 people. That sample size is large enough to state my observation as an observable fact, not my opinion.
I see allusions to opinion when factual information is presented as a scapegoat, a way to deny evidence presented in an argument or story. And a way to falsely claim anything can be true. If you can prove 2+2=7 you may have a point. But if you cannot, the thought has no validity in reality.
Of course if someone wants to spend time on so called philosophies that are unproven I see no harm in it. For me though its a waste of time. Too much for me to do. I like the pseudonym of “Facts not Fiction.”
Of course we all express how we feel about things. One reason we’re here. But when discussing what is factual opinions are most often wrong.
To interpret a presented fact as an opinion displays ignorance, or either an attempt to dodge a factual issue.
@ruthlee
Thank you for sharing your experience.
messenger
@ Winston
Oh yea I left out a biggie. Seeing some floating object a few inches above you, that quickly moves off you when you wake up, and floats. Not exactly to be interpreted as coincidental. If so, coincidental to what?
@Messenger
It is not my intention to belittle your
experience or to debate the validity of
it.
I would like to share this link, as other
readers may find it interesting.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-28/study/6504704
@Jennifer
Yes Jennifer, yours is a typical reply to this reality that is not commonly experienced by the general population. With limited knowledge we’re all left to rationalize solutions based only on what we know. A common mistake is to believe that we know so much, but do we really?
I would think the same thing as you if I were you, because I used to think like you. A psyche book in a class I studied claimed 1% of our population has schizophrenia, and its most common manifestation is hearing voices. Therefore, I cannot vouch for anyone else’s personal experience. Theirs may be supernatural, theirs may not be. But because of my own, now I don’t know. And because of my own now I consider it foolish to assume the latter. Before mine, I thought like you do, and would be looking for a natural explanation. I would assume the explanation would be a common one, and dismiss the supernatural idea as having no relevancy, believing the probability to be false.
However, I saw my future. I didn’t see an event (a circumstance yes); I saw objects, exactly as they were, as they appeared in my real life, and I didn’t bring all of those objects into my life. Some of those were brought into my life through other people. This was no deja vu vague experience like you see in a movie. And I know I cannot see the future on my own. Mental disease or coincidences cannot account for that.
But I or no one that I know who had similar experiences requires you to believe in these incidents as supernatural. One of the reasons those things happen is as a witness to God’s existence. But God doesn’t require anyone to believe either. Everyone of us is given the privilege of choice.
I’m off this article now. I don’t keep returning to old articles. This is my last post here. Maybe I’ll read another of your posts on a future article.
I wish you the best Jennifer.
@messenger,
The only facts are that you believe you heard something and saw something. Did anyone else see these things who can thus corroborate these events? I am assuming no. Do not the scriptures say to test every inspired saying?
The point of my comment was that there are many anomalous events that people can interpret various ways. There are hundreds of documented cases that have been studies by members of the psychiatric community where people see things that simply are “not there.” Could the things they see be messages from God? Sure. Some claim that the things they see are messages from demons, ghosts, space aliens, etc.? Should I believe these reports as well? Really, since I was not there to observe the actual event, I cannot say with any certainty what exactly occurred, whether there was a message, or what the source of the message was. However, I am aware that there have been documented cases of humans hallucinating based on drugs, mental disorders, sleep deprivation, and a host of other causes. Should each one of these cases be taken as divine contact too?
You may have been contacted by God, you may not have been. I cannot say for certain. And you are free to interpret the event however you want to. The ‘Son of Sam’ was reported as having said that a 6,000-year-old dog gave him orders to kill. Do you believe him? Again, no one can say for certain what happened there and we must all choose to believe or disbelieve based on our own internal logic and experiences.
WS
@ Sarah
Have you ever heard of, “God’s spirit bears witness with our spirit (that we are his children) ?”
If God allows demons to intercede and answer a Christian’s prayers then we are living in the twilight zone.
In regards to the org. Don’t you see it as strange that with all the senior members running the place for years none of them ever described how and when God’s spirit contacted them? In the Bible there are dozens of descriptions of such occurrences, yet in WT publications there are none, except referencing those that happened long ago in ancient times. The only two JWs other than myself that I’ve personally known claimed it is Rutherford, who was a false prophet, and F. Franz who was a false prophet. Yet even from those two I’ve never read or heard of how God contacted them. Why?
In reality there are many people today that have been contacted by God, his spirit (which is the same thing), or one of his agents (Christ or angels). I’ve personally met and spoken to other Christians that have been contacted. Ones that will talk about it.
This is another reason to seriously doubt WT. They talk a good game, but when they lay their hand on the table, they come up short.
God contacting people is different than the gifts of the spirit early Christians used. Those people actually channeled some power from God. A contact is just that, a contact. Nevertheless the scriptures WT uses to claim those gifts don’t exist doesn’t say what WT claims it does. I don’t know if those gifts are still used, because I have no personal experience with them. But the scriptures says, “When that which is complete arrives.” WT claims complete to mean the Bible’s completeness. Impossible!!! Paul was dead when the holy writings were finished. Yet Paul wrote, “Now I have partial knowledge, but when that which is complete arrives I will have full knowledge ( comparatively of God). ” Paul was speaking about his ascension to heaven, not the Bible’s completion, for he was dead then, and as a human he would know nothing without a resurrection. Being dead how would he have full knowledge. And if he’s already resurrected I don’t think he’d depend on a completed Bible to inform him about God. Not if he could literally speak with Christ.
Sarah look up the scriptures in quotes if you want. I quote from memory, not wanting to take time to look them up. My quotation marks merely show what was said, not the exact wording. But neither do Bible translations.
If you still go to the hall why don’t you ask two are three elders separately what were the gb members, or any so called anointed ones experiences when God’s spirit bore witness with their spirit. My guess is that if asked separately they’ll give different answers, say they’ll have to look it up, or say, “We’re not suppose to talk about it.”
Didn’t edit above…changed some nouns to plural and failed to adjust attached verbs.
Here is more on the appeals process available to disfellowshiped Witnesses:
“Upon informing the wrongdoer of the decision, the judicial committee should tell him that if he believes that a serious error in judgment has been made and he wishes to appeal the decision, he should do so in writing, clearly stating the reasons for his appeal. Counting from the time he was notified of the committee’s decision, he will be given seven days for this. If a written appeal is received, the body of elders will contact the circuit overseer, who will select qualified elders to serve on an appeal committee to rehear the case. They will make every effort to conduct the appeal hearing within one week after the written appeal is received. If there is an appeal, announcement of the disfellowshipping will be postponed. In the meantime, the accused person will be restricted from commenting and praying at meetings and from special privileges of service.” — Page 141, Organized to Do Jehovah’s Will, May 2016 Printing, English (od-E), 2005, 2015 WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/Organized-to-Do-Jehovahs-Will/
As you see, no provision is made for a Witness who is publicly or privately reproved to appeal. So elders can wreck our lives with a wrong decision (intentionally, because they don’t like us) and get away with it scot free. If we had some sort of support, an elder to explain things to us with regards to the legal process for instance, we might know about the appeal process.
It can be seen that all the aces are held by the elders in this situation. They have the knowledge. They have the power. How on earth victims get any justice in our org is a matter of chance rather than design.
It must be remembered that when we are publicly reproved, we face a lot of shunning as a bad associate. When we are publicly reproved, not as a result of something that we have done wrong but rather as a direct attack by the elders because they don’t like us, then we are being shunned for nothing. Getting shunned for doing nothing is as cruel as it gets. There will be no public apology from the elders.
I wrote to the Governing Body and asked why the elders do not give a public apology, and the GB replied that they don’t do public apologies.
So the elders have gotten the ultimate revenge on someone they don’t like. They can publicly humiliate someone, but publicly don’t need to say sorry for the mistake they made.
A sister made a comment at the meeting last week about how we can feel secure in the congregation, as compared to the Catholic Church where the priests are abusing the children. I approached her today and asked her if she was aware of the conclusions the Royal Commission had made about the Witnesses. She had heard that the commission had said that out of all the religions, the Witnesses handled the accusations of child abuse in the best way. She said a CO had told her that.
This is the second time a Witness has told me that. It seems there is an urban myth going around among the elders in Australia that the RC actually praised the Witnesses.
I told her that was an urban myth among the Witnesses and that 100%, 100% the Royal Commission did not say that. Then I showed her a print out of the conclusions of the commission and read a part out to her. I offered the print out to her but she regarded it as if it was leprosy. She replied that Jehovah will fix things up. I said that it’s a pity he didn’t fix it up before the worldly courts got involved, and was she aware of the court cases the Witnesses had lost and had to pay millions of dollars compensation? I said I can’t see how Jehovah is involved in this at all, because the procedures which the elders follow don’t come from the Bible but rather from the Governing Body, and the GB has said nothing is going to change.
She said that there are probably changes that have been made that we are unaware of but which the elders know about. I said that is what we used to think a decade ago, and used to laugh at the Catholics for their child abuse, but now we see that we are no better. The sister replied that Jehovah knows who is doing what, and he will judge those doing wrong, and in the new system we won’t have to have this kind of conversation because there will be no child abuse happening.
What a happy ending!
Ricardo: Regarding, “The sister replied that Jehovah knows who is doing what, and he will judge those doing wrong…”
I’m surprised that this sister didn’t accuse you of spreading apostate-driven lies and dishonesties that Jehovah’s organization is permissive toward pedophiles. Still, I know the mindset of those Witnesses who are in denial because I was once one of them. I honestly thought that I had found the true religion and was on the path to eternal life. Because of this, I was willing to believe what turned out to be Watchtower lies.
I will probably be told to be more positive. That advice always fixes me.
Please look at Rom 13:1-5
This clearly shows what the GB need to do and everyone needs to do regarding reporting of child abuse. Especially when it’s the law.
We have been given a conscience and what does that tell you ?
Jehovah used the nations in the past to correct his people. Could this not be the same once again. If you are confident the JW is the right organisation but it has a few “problems”. Then consider what the organisation need to do in line with this scripture.
@Jp,
Analyse what this tells us about the mentality our leadership. As Angus Stewart asked our Australian leaders, “Why don’t you make it part of your policy for abuse allegations? Every other religion that has been investigated has made it part of their policy. Your religion is the only one that hasn’t.”
Yes, why? What would Jesus do? Why has the love and compassion of Christ not seeped into our organization? Into our leadership? Why have they flat out refused to change anything?
Analyse it. What does it tell us about our organization? Loving and compassionate? From the video, did you feel overwhelmed by the care, compassion and love of Spinks and O’Brien? Could you, could you feel the love? The concern for the victims?
Is it a hard thing to do, to report abuse allegations? No, right. So, why, why, why is it so hard for our leaders?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwqmWMK7dwtlY0c4VlFDMEMzeWM/view?usp=sharing
Ricardo, I sent an email to the Commission telling them of this after I read some comments on another website. I also made the point that children are still in danger. They acknowledged my email, so they are aware of the misinformation going on amongst the Witnesses, which suits those in charge. It is fascinating but not surprising to hear the straight out lies like that. What on earth are they telling them at assemblies, if anything at all?
@Meredith J,
Well done. Can you imagine how frustrating it is trying to straighten the thinking of these Witnesses? How difficult to tell them that the CO is lying?
I must try to get a copy of the Commission’s conclusions to the CO, Wayne Hunt. If anybody has him as a CO in Australia at the moment, maybe you can slip him an anonymous envelope containing the conclusions.
You know what? I believe what the Bible says in 1 John 3:8 and that is: ‘For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.’
If we say the Lord’s prayer and we pray for God’s will to be done on earth just as it is in heaven, then why is not God’s will involved in the destroying the works of the devil? For me and many others on here, Watchtower is one of those colossal works designed to fool, hurt, destroy and act like a wall to God. If anyone feels that they would like to join in the fight with God, then maybe the Royal Commission should be informed by as many as possible if they have personally experienced this, that is that they are telling the congregations lies to protect their reputations and their butts. Maybe this will force some kind of action by the government, which could set off a chain reaction elsewhere. (I have decided to wear a head covering while writing this by the way as I am suggesting something quite out there).
By the way, thanks Covert Fade, Lloyde and all the others who have been involved with this. We are grateful that you have taken such a stand and are keeping all up to date with the goings on.
If you carefully examine what they did Meredith you may see WT took many of the bad scriptural ideas that they are practicing and applied them to all other religions instead. For instance: tickling the ears of its followers with false stories about itself, claiming Satan as an angel of light presented his apostles (gb members) as ministers of righteousness, claiming WT has no scripturally authorized clergy/laity classes, misrepresenting scriptures its own selfish reasons (control, prestige, and possibly money), lording it over the flock, professing their belief in God but proving false to its power, starting sects, denying who Christ really is in power and authority, and refusing to bow down to Christ’s authority or to him as a person, shepherds who don’t protect the sheep, shepherds who lead the sheep away from Christ and after themselves (WT), preachers of a false Christ, preachers of a new and different religion, not displaying Christian love, ship wrecking the faith of Christians, forced unity through man made rules and consequences for breaking those rules (this WT applied to ancient Jews) and it fits WT to a tee. And of course WT’s interpretation of Babylon the Great?
The question is can anyone save WT? Will anyone save WT? What will happen to her on the day of reckoning if she exist till then? Has the smell of her multiple sins entered God’s nose? If so, what then? Is everyone of any authority in WT a liar for WT?
The works of Satan will be broken up in time. Whether WT is alive when Christ returns is unknown. But if so, I advice elders to step down before that happens and for others not to accept an appointment. False lies you’ll be expected to uphold just like these brothers did in the court trials and commission hearings.
advise not advice
@Messenger,
Surely the smell of her multiple sins have reached God’s news. We have prayed and prayed and prayed about all the corruption we see happening. Surely God has heard our heart-felt prayers. Surely God has seen his little sheep get beaten up again and again and again.
The fact that two Witnesses, you and I, are on an apostate website talking about the corruption we see in our religion, is in itself an endictment against the organization.
nose, not news
Hey Ricardo, that is no unban myth…it is a down right lie. The CO probably knows the truth. But even if he doesn’t he lied in ignorance by making something up and he knows it. The branch might have even directed him to lie. But it certainly is no myth. I have discovered that people lie like crazy. A lot of people do.
@ messenger, you can just see the order going out to “stand up for Watchtower even under the threat of persecution”. For the governing body, this is their big persecution moment that Satan is taking full advantage of to fool as many as he can. Those who are still brainwashed will think (mainly because they have failed to find out the truth about their ‘sacred’ organisation, corporation, masquerading as a religion) that the world which they have always hated, has come to show that they are the one and onlys with the ‘true faith’.
Imagine the disappointment and disillusionment when they realise that it was nothing but a lie. As much as they want to believe the bunker story. If it happens it is going to happen because they are guilty, and not because of persecution as they are just a part of Satan’s extensive web of deception, Babylon the Great.
I was just sticky beaking on another website where the witnesses had a go at apostate sites. They swore that they would never leave the organisation like them, no matter what. They are in for a big shock is all I can say. “Get out of her my people” says Jesus.
Meredith they have a go at apostates, because they don’t know. They don’t fully understand Christianity, nor do they fully understand the WT.
Christ spoke to demon possessed people. A person doesn’t become demon possessed through following God. I suspect WT tells its followers not to talk to some people (including apostates) because of what they might find out, not because its scriptural not to speak with them.
Keep up your studies.
Sorry Rodney Spinks and Terrence O’Brien. But you just look like a couple of brain washed deluded men. They have an awful lot of trouble getting the gist of what the Royal Commission is saying. They are a couple of the men who have been leading the congregations in Australia. And the Governing Body are just as equally brain washed but are cowards to have left the dirty work up to Spinks and O’Brien. It is a case of the blind leading the blind. They will end up in a pit. Amazing that people cannot see it.
You guys have done a great job summarising case 54. Thank you for your efforts. I have never been tempted to comment on any site before, but would like to say a few things on this:
The Australia Branch brought out the new ‘Child Safeguard Document’ on the 7th of March, 20 months since case 29 was finished and only 3 days before case 54 began. Why? One reason jumps straight out at me. If it had been read out in congregations before case 54 began, there would have been more interest among many Jehovah’s Witnesses to tune in and watch the Royal Commission. By releasing this document to the rank & file after case 54 is done, it’s too late for anyone to watch it without going to apostate sites (which can’t be believed anyway), and the average JW will believe any lies the elders tell them (like, what a great job the brothers did representing the organization).
It amuses me greatly at how willing the bigwigs are to throw their subordinates under the bus. The Governing Body has said to O’Brien & Spinks, “Even though WE make the rules, you can deal with the flack, not us! We’re not appearing!”
Even though elders are to immediately contact the legal dept. for advice when they hear of a case of child abuse O’Brien & Spinks say, “It’s the elders job to report to the police, not us! It’s not our fault if they don’t report it.” Are we to believe that these clueless programmed elders have failed to go to the Police when the legal dept. has told them to? I think not! The elders will do exactly as they are ordered to do. You can bet they were never told to report it. If you are an elder reading this, you should seriously consider stepping down. If you ever have to deal with a pedophile case, you may one day end up in court looking heartless, or a fool, or both. And as hard as you loyally try to protect the organization, if they can leave you holding the bag at the end of it, they will in a heartbeat. Don’t expect any loyalty in return.
They have however reported 15 of the 17 cases that have occurred since case study 29. It seems that Satan’s world, using apostate driven lies has somehow taught God’s organization how to improve in the areas of Love and Justice. It’s painfully obvious to all that Justice McClelland (a ‘Worldling’) is far more compassionate, loving and kind than those 2 cold-hearted robots. I was a little surprised to hear Paul Grundy say that he thought Terry O’Brien to be a kindly man. Perhaps those close to Adolf Hitler may have thought that he had good qualities. In my experience, it takes a long time to really know someone. Sad to say that most JW’s, and indeed people in general only hate injustice when it is against them personally. A person has to have a lot more inside to be truly empathetic.
It was commented by one of you during the video that it would be nice to see the organization apologize for previous actions. That, I agree would be a refreshing change, as it has never happened in history at any level.
But it is unlikely because if they admit that they haven’t handled things well, their ability to defend against more lawsuits would be greatly weakened. I have heard it said before: there are only 2 things the society fears, bad press and paying out money in lawsuits and taxes. They definitely should not have charity status or be tax exempt. They don’t even extend charity to their own members! If they were faced with the choice of either adopting the Commissions recommendations or losing money, you can bet there would be new light like never before on their Bible interpretations. Wouldn’t that test their resolve?
A friend of mine who is waking up went to the meeting last Sunday and heard an announcement asking for money (I am in Australia). I don’t know whether this is local or from the branch. It would be unusual for such a local announcement to be made on a Sunday so it may be Australia wide. Got to fund that redress scheme somehow.
JW’s are always quoting the Old Testament as scriptural proof of some action (like the 2 witness rule). They freely admit to not being subject to the Mosiac Law but want us to believe that we are somehow bound by parts of it. I wish the Commission had thrown that at them, but as we have seen, it probably would have drawn some ridiculous dialogue that doesn’t actually answer the question. It is great to hear that Angus Stuart, although seemingly unflappable, could see the testimony of O’Brien & Spinks for what it really is. Thanks Paul for letting us know that.
On the point of Shunning. My wife and I are being shunned by family and former friends. We are not disfellowshipped or disassociated but that makes no difference anymore. If shunning wasn’t stated policy, it would make a difference for some family members, but most JW’s would still have nothing to do with you. They would still have the “bad association” angle. If an ex JW tells a JW that he still loves Jehovah, Jesus and the bible, that conflicts with their programming. They would probably put their palm in your face and say, “I don’t want to hear it!” To them, leaving the organization is leaving Jehovah. Nothing else computes.
On the point about O’Brien and Spinks saying that you can just leave if you want to and you won’t be shunned, I don’t think anyone mentioned it, but Angus Stuart did say that many people who had contacted him had disputed that. I would dispute it too.
Just a few thoughts. Thanks again guys.
Well done, Campbell. Great to hear your comment. These guys are doing a fantastic job, like you say. I like the point you made about the timing of the ‘Child Safeguard Document’ . What cunning guys these are.
I appreciate your words of wisdom. Hope you can comment some more. It would be pleasing to hear your views on other matters as well.
Here here ricardo.
A very interesting and insightful discussion and so good to hear Paul Grundy’s input. John Redwood’s revelation that Vin Toole told him he thought the royal commission was “apostate-driven” was at first shocking but on reflection is actually a truism. Criticism of the handling of child sex abuse by *any* religion will always be by — er, critics of that religion, and so it is the case with JWs: is is those who were let down by the JWs who are the now the critics. This commission is the very place for them to air those criticisms. Additionally if any JW In good standing criticized the JW handling of abuse, that action would — by the JW definition– instantly *make* them apostates.
Case Study 54 transcript of hearing, made public by the Royal Commission.
” In Case Study 29, Watchtower Australia produced 5,000 documents comprising, among other things, case files relating to 1,006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse dating back to 1950. Officers at the Royal Commission reviewed these case files and, as a result, the Royal Commission referred information in relation to 514 alleged perpetrators to police, in accordance with its powers under section 6P(1) of the Royal Commission Act of 1902.”
ROYAL COMMISSION ACT 1902 – SECT 6P
Commission may communicate information
(1) Where, in the course of inquiring into a matter, a Commission obtains information that relates, or that may relate, to a contravention of a law, or evidence of a contravention of a law, of the Commonwealth, of a State or of a Territory, the commission may, if in the opinion of the Commission it is appropriate so to do, communicate the information or furnish the evidence, as the case my be, to:
(d) the Commissioner of the Australian Federal Police or of the Police force of a State or of the Northern Territory, or
(e) the authority or person responsible for the administration or enforcement of that law.
———————————-
After examining the case files relating to 1006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse dating back to 1950. The Royal Commission referred information of 514 alleged perpetrators to police.
It can be seen as a duty of care for the greater community, that information of alleged perpetrators be reported to police.
After all love for ones neighbor is not restricted to the Watchtower community. But to the greater community also, which the Watchtower is but a small part.
The Royal Commission have taken lead, and reported information of alleged perpetrators to the authorities.
Jason Evans, Ricardo, nice to here from some fellow ossies, Robyn Bass mentioned Wayne Hunt, i shuddered, never trust that man, along with the ARC, no air time at all, can’t believe it, we had a 13 year old sisfellowshipped here, no Dad just a Mum who wasnt allowed in the room, thats child abuse, i told the Mum never abandon him, she said she won’t, our congo is dying due to the ravaging, my 2 siblings are moving away to a better place, so we loose more young people, just leaves evil elders, my wife can;t see it, maybe one day she might, i have learnt how to miss 80% of meetings & cope when i do go.
@Whip It,
Which part of Oz are you in?
What a shocking state your congregation is in. In some congregations there are elders who have been there for 40 or more years, and incompetents put in charge of anything for so long are sure to make a mess of it.
Wayne Hunt really gets my goat. I was in a pioneer meeting he presided, and he starts off by saying, “We can see Jehovah speeding up the work.” I was knocked out of my mental stupor and said in a shocked voice, “Jehovah is speeding it up? In what way?” He clarified, “More than a billion hours this year. More preaching is being done today than ever before.” What a nut! Does more time spent preaching mean things are speeding up? More time spent achieving less is a ‘slowing down’ in my reckoning.
One day in the meeting for field service Wayne Hunt says, “We can tell the people we are not at their doors to recruit new members.” I worked with him door to door that morning and said to him, “Wayne, isn’t the whole reason we are out is to recruit new members?” He explained that the GB has explained that recruiting new members is different to looking for prospective new members. But, I said, the householder would understand that looking for new recruits and looking for new members is the same. Shouldn’t we take that into account? No, he said, no, it’s different.
What a dip stick!
And then, at another time when he was explaining the new ‘dimmer light’ understanding of ‘generation’, I asked him if Jesus’ disciples understood that the destruction of Jerusalem would happen after an overlapping of generations. Yes, he said, they understood that.
What a nit! The destruction of Jerusalem happened in one generation, before 40 years had passed, not within an overlap.
I really don’t like that guy. He seems to be an uneducated man who seeks to prove he isn’t dumb, while not realizing he is dumb.
As of 1 March,2017 . The Royal Commission into institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. Have referred 1,950 Referrals to Authorities ( include Police )
This can be checked on their website.
When O’Brien insulted the learned judges by quoting Isaiah
“Jehovah is our lawgiver”. The law referred to there was the
Mosaic Law, which gives foolproof advice on how to cure a
rebellious son.- Take him outside the city gates and let the
good citizens stone him to death. Deut. 21:18-21.
I wonder if O’Brien is prepared to carry out Judicial murder
upon youths for the sin of drunkenness! If he is, then he’s
an ignorant savage, but if not, then his claim to follow JHVHS
law is a false claim. ( Do they ever think what they are really
saying!).
Geoff, Jackson also lied to the court, saying they didn’t endorse
corporal punishment . He played down “Not sparing the rod” to
maybe not allowing the child to see a movie. ( Didn’t anyone tell
him they didn’t have movies when that scripture was written.!
it wasn’t the real Moses in “The Ten Commandments” it was
Charley Heston! Jackson also applied the text to education.
So that’s what those screams were, coming from the back room
of the KH. “Children being Educated”.
@Ted,
I was sitting next to a brother on Sunday who said he used to go skating with Geoffrey Jackson. I asked him why did Geoffrey say what he did at the Royal Commission. This brother started to defend Geoffrey and saying that new light has shone and we have a more enlightened understanding than we used to have.
So I have prepared a printout for this brother with Prov 23:13&14 (if you strike your son with the rod he will not die), Making Your Family Life Happy (1978) page 132 (Spanking is a lifesaver), Insight Vol2 p818 (rod means chastisement), and The Oxford Study Dictionary where chastise means to punish severely, especially by beating.
I then list what Geoffrey said at the ARC, and finish with these words:
“We have a dilemma. Either the Bible is lying, together with the faithful slave, or your friend Geoffrey is lying. It is impossible for there to be any other way to understand it. If I lied, especially with my hand on the Bible, I would expect to be corrected. Elders who lie should also expect to be corrected. So, who is going to correct the elder Geoffrey? What makes it even more serious is that thousands of people have heard him lie, as the youtube recordings of this lie have been viewed by thousands.
To lack a backbone and try to make excuses for this lie is not the Christian way. It may be the Witness way, but we should aim to be good Christians rather than good Witnesses. A lie is a lie. Now we are all muddled. Can we physically discipline our children or not? As Christians we can. As Witnesses we now have no idea, although we think probably not. How can any outsider, or even insider for that matter, be impressed by the muddle we are in over such a simple subject, a subject dealt with clearly and simply in the Bible?”
So many Witnesses are so spineless when defending Geoffrey. They would rather say the Bible is wrong than one of the GB are wrong.
What outstanding “Christians”! (Sarcasm added)
@Ricardo, Jacksons words (verbatim) to the commission
on the subject of corporal punishment, were–> “Our
Literature’ has pointed out that the true way to discipline
children is by educating them, not by giving corporal
punishment.”–
Your quotes from their own publications, once again shows
how they are prepared to lie when faced with a direct and
embarrassing question. Thanks for the references.
Sorry about your Möm ….Your Mom must belong to same religion as mine…How did that go….No seeum, no hearum…no feelum…no wait…lotsa a feelum in pedophile paradisio! ;). Agreed …shoe fitz…You got it pinned WS! As for not using donated funz to pay for fancy drainz, etc….uh yeah…Has not anyone noticed the GB members doing hard manual labor ? Dragon own cartz? DUH? On with the fairy talezzzz…
Last night it was announced in my cousin’s congregation here in Australia that there is available a new “Child Safeguarding Document” to whoever would like to request a copy. It hasn’t been announced in mine yet so I can’t confirm the exact wordage used.
What is significant is that we will need to request a copy. I’m not sure who we are to ask it from. I wonder if anyone else out there has heard anything?
Reading the transcript of case 54 & 29 hearings at the Royal Commission into Child Abuse…… The two witness rule was presented as an excuse for not being able to proceed a case against the alleged perpetrators of child abuse.
The Governing Body should read 1 Kings 3:16 to 28.
Solomon Judges a Difficult Case.
“One day two prostitutes came and presented themselves before King Solomon. One of them said, “Your majesty, this woman and I live in the same house, and I gave birth to a baby boy at home while she was there. Two days after my child was born she also gave birth to a baby boy. Only the two of us were there in the house – no one else was present.Then one night she accidentally rolled over on her baby and smothered it. She got up during the night, took my son from my side while I was asleep, and carried him to her bed; then she put the dead child in my bed. The next morning, when I woke up and was going to feed my baby, I saw that it was dead. I looked at it more closely and saw that it was not my child.”
But the other woman said, “No! The living child is mine, and the dead one is yours!”
The first woman answered, “No! The dead child is yours, and the living one is mine!”
And so they argued before the King.
Then King Solomon said, “Each of you claims that the living child is hers and that the dead child belongs to the other one.” He sent for a sword, and when it was brought, he said, “Cut the living child in two and give each woman half of it.”
The real mother, her heart full of love for her son, said to the king, “Please, Your Majesty, don’t kill the child! Give it to her!”
But the other woman said, “Don’t give it to either of us; go ahead and cut it in two.”
Then King Solomon said, “Don’t kill the child! Give it to the first woman – she is its real mother.”
When the people of Israel heard of Solomon’s decision, they were all filled with deep respect for him, because they knew then that God had given him the wisdom to settle disputes fairly.”
What is interesting about this example of wisdom, is Solomon was under the two witness law also, and when this dispute came before him he could have said there are not two witnesses to this case, no decision can be reached. Case closed.
But no, his love toward the real mother made him proceed without two witnesses, and expose the real mother and her child.
The Governing Body need to ask themselves has God given them the wisdom to settle disputes fairly. If not why not. Stop using the two witness excuse. Solomon could have stopped but he didn’t. Can they show they have wisdom like Solomon. Proving their love for sexually abused children. Giving the abused justice they deserve as Solomon identified the real mother. Remember lack of two witnesses did not stop Solomon from finding the truth.
VERY GOOD POINT.
Unfortunately watchtower would use the sword and cut the baby in half.
It is clear all sexual abuse of children has to be reported to police.
The Watchtower is not qualified to handle crimes of abuse.
The two witness excuse is no reason not to report to police the crime of child abuse.
There have been cases where the abuser has lied to the watchtower elders and when outsiders reported the abuser to police he confessed and found guilty.
What does this say for the child, abused by the abuser and denied their right to justice for years and years,…. till an outsider reported the abuse to the police.
The watchtower show themselves to be counterfeit Christians, all over the shop, in so many ways, not the real deal.
Ok explain this to me.
The society have told us for years that the governments will turn on JW at the end. Now they are banning JW’s in Russia.
Is that not what they said would happen. So why are they asking everyone write to the Russian government to ask them to lift the ban???
It’s on the JW web site.
Do they not believe what they have been saying for years? They should be happy it’s a sign of the end. Why fight it ?? ????
IMHO – this organisation is a giant social club and nothing more, the leadership think they are in charge but the average member could not care less about who is who in the leadership zoo.
It is typical tribe mentality – us versus them, needing to belong to a group etc.. I have no problem with this, but I do have a problem with interposing in the Creators role, psychological blackmail, charading as a charity, disrespect for the law of the land, extorting money and conditional love.
Team JW.org will always be around in one form or other and this is what the parasitical leadership will be feeding off.
Ricardo, i am in SEQ, Wayne Hunt is an absolute lyer, a fake & a fraud, he gave a talk here once & mentioned Oral Sex in a marriage is pornea, i and another brother asked if the outline was from the FDS & he said yes, can we see it we asked, oh i’m sorry i can’t find it, we then latter challenged him from the scriptures to show he was wrong, are you going to retract the comment, no i won’t, we started call him Wayne Shunt, he was groomed from a small western town to be a CO, he likewise looked after his mates from the West when they came in to bigger congo’s, i could go on & on, again spirit anointed i don’t think so.
@Whip It,
I am also in SEQ. Who knows, we may live close to one another. I am glad you have seen through the outer shell of Wayne Hunt. I find him a shallow fellow who is rather full of himself. Like so many of our leadership.
Is it all right to ask your background, or what makes you come here to chat? You seem to know a bit of Wayne’s background, so you have probably been a Witness for a while. What’s going on? Have you seen behind the curtain?
@Whip It,
Sorry, Whip It, I just looked at the other page and you have written about yourself quite a bit. You have a beard and your kids have grown up and left home, and you work on a work computer.
But I am still interested to ask, what made you awaken?
Let’s see if you know any brothers I know in SEQ. Do you know Bro. Olerenshaw? He’s been around for a while, he came and gave a talk at our hall the other day? He’s got 3 sons and a daughter.
Ricardo,i know David, is he on the same page as us?, i am a bit reluctant to show to much as i don’t want to be exposed & then dealt with, 2 much at stake, i’m guessing you are in Brisbane, i am not, but not far away, i like this page because it helps my sanity, i don’t recall how i found it, but anyway, my story, Mother was contacted just prior to the 1975 lie, she was in very fast & dragged us kids along, Dad never bought into it, i left & spent some time away, only to return home & started to get influenced again, i guess the combination of making new friends at the KH, i was baptized in 1984, married some time latter & the climbed the ladder, MS & Elder for 20 years all combined, i stood down several years ago, a combination of family pressures & the in house attacks from Elders over us being outspoken, then the decision to grow a beard,then i good friend asked me if i had ever studied 607, out side the Borg, that lifted the veil, then i read COC, as i have said before its taken 4 years to be comfortable with myself & hide, i feel like a resistance fighter behind enemy lines sending out communication.As for Mr Hunt, when i was serving he was a brand new CO, he left a trail of destruction, i recall in one congo on the sunny coast the body of elders went after a MS, who they accused of handing out the winning trophy at the Melbourne cup, his reply was, Did the Premier have something else to do that day, Mr Hunt believed it, he was actually looking after corporate guests at the race in Brisbane as part of his job, nothing wrong with that, anyway he was removed & a number of Elders stood down at the same time.You are correct in what you are saying, he is a fake & a fraud, he was also obsessed with sex, maybe because he’s not getting any, hahaha, thanks for the interest.
@Whip It,
I know David, went to university with him. I have known him most of my life. I haven’t seen him for decades now, I have no idea how he is doing, but he’s a really nice guy, as I remember.
His uncle Alistair was invited up on the stage by Viv Moritz last assembly as an example of someone who has not lost the love he had at first. That Alistair is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, I tell you. He should be called Molestor cos he is anything but a loving shepherd. After that assembly I will never go to an assembly again. Do you know the guy Alistair?
Great to hear you have awakened. Like me, you sit in the meeting thinking what a load of rubbish it is. I have a group who meet together after the mid-week meeting to discuss the nonsense that was brought out. Do you have anyone you can talk to? It must be murder if you haven’t.
Ah, Mr Hunt.
I remember an incident in field service where he was arguing that paedophiles can be rehabilitated according to the society. The Sisters argued with him about it.
Actually, I can only remember 2 CO’s that were liked. The rest seemed to have big ego’s.
@Gwen,
When you look at the caliber of CO’s and elders which we have, they seem so low quality. Hardly any of them have the ability to think. I feel really sick in the stomach thinking about them.
It has just been announced in my congregation, and this was the full announcement:
“Anyone wanting a copy of the Child Protection Document can receive one upon request from the Coordinator or from the Secretary.”
There was no context given, no explanation what a Child Protection Document is, or any connection to the Royal Commission. Just the sort of thing the Commissioner didn’t want to happen.
When Watchtower plays the fool with the government arrangements, I doubt that Watchtower will win.
Ricardo, i don’t know Alister, i on;y know David through some one else where we live, they have known him for a long time, right back to his 1st Marriage, i have a few people i can talk to here & of coarse this site as well, i note your comments on Elders, our new CO is a mere boy, no experience in life, its pitiful, the barrell is certainly getting empty, & i would say the new procedure for apointment is not helping, they just bounce it of the ceiling if you ask me.
@Whip It,
I’m glad you are still with us after that cyclone the last couple of days.
David’s first marriage was to a sister from the cong I was in at the time, which his uncle Alistair P. is still in. Alistair has been in it since about 1978 (around 40 years) and in the last 6 months 30 people have left. Alistair used to take the Watchtower study and he had a real pecking order: he would only ask elders and MS’s and their families and the experienced sisters, and any brother he was trying to promote to be an MS. Anyone who he didn’t like or who was in the lower levels of the congregation just never got asked. My mother and other friends got into the habit of just not putting their hands up because they would never be asked.
The congregation is an old boys club, there is no progression from MS to elder. An MS is appointed about once every 3 years. Now the elders are old, but they aren’t changing nothing. They are in charge. Anybody they don’t like they push out of the cong.
At times we are told that problems in the cong get fixed when Jehovah is ready. Well, Alistair has been a problem for 40 years and the only way the problem looks to be dealt with is going to be with his death. And when monsters like Alistair can be invited to the platform as an example of someone who has not lost the love he had at first (if he hasn’t he certainly has made others lose theirs), then there is something seriously wrong with this organization. I walked out of the assembly and went home when I heard him up on the stage, and I won’t be going to Browns Plains again.
I note that we have a branch hook up on Saturday at lunch time, it will be interesting to here of any of the ARC, i doubt it though, oh well 3 hours of yawn time, at least they canned the Sunday meeting, they are pushing on with the tract campaign, they announced here that out of 97 maps we have done 19, the place is dying spiritually, meetings dead, people dead or moving away, i watch with glee at the demise of this congo
@Whip It,
I wish I was in your congregation to see things unravelling. In my cong everything is lovely. Maddening lovely. I feel bad when I give a comment about elders having yelled at me in the past and how this isn’t Christian conduct, because the elders in the cong simply leave me alone. There is a clear orderly procession of MS’s becoming elders. Last Sunday I took the field service group at noon after the Sunday meeting, and there were 15 brothers and sisters coming out! On a Sunday! This is unprecedented.
And we even have new ones coming to our meetings! With lots of tattoos! I can’t believe it. What is happening? I want to see people leaving, and instead more people are coming.
That being said, we haven’t had a new publisher announced for about 3 years, and the Coordinator has made sure that his sons were quickly made MS’s and placed in strategic positions (sound, maps, accounts) while other brothers who don’t have elders as fathers are simply ignored as MS material.
Ricardo, Nepotism is alive and well, no ARC comment at the Branch talk, no GB came over, probably to scared due to the ARC
@Whip It,
Quite a pathetic Branch talk. I thought I was at an Amway meeting: all the spuiking of the product and experiences of how people had benefited from it.
I sat there thinking how the information was of any use to me. The theme: don’t say you can’t!
Okay for them to say. But for the rank and file, it’s the elders who are saying whether we can. They told me twice I couldn’t AP and both times it took me a year to qualify to AP. Then the elders told me I couldn’t RP, and it took me another year to qualify to RP. Then they told me I couldn’t continue to RP because I lacked 1 hour on my yearly total. Twice they have told me I can no longer be an MS.
So what meaning was there for me? It’s all BS. We were told you can see Jehovah’s blessing by how the Witnesses are being sustained In Australia and NZ. Remembering that in the past year there was a decrease in publisher numbers, I was glad to see no mention made of increase in numbers except in Timor Leste where there was an increase.
But is evidence of God’s blessing new Kingdom Halls being built? Really?Are other churches not building new houses of worship?
And foreign language groups? Do other religions not have this?
And the School for Kingdom Evangelizers? I know a brother who went to that and was assigned to my cong; he had a strong attraction to young brothers and would write love letters to them, letters which I presented to the elders and which they ignored, giving me counsel instead to improve my relationship with the homosexually-inclined brother. And then there’s my cousin who went to SKE and refuses to have anything to do with her Witness brother; obviously she has learnt Christian love. Not.
I asked the secretary of my cong about the Child Protection Document yesterday at the meeting. I asked whether he had watched the review of the Royal Commission where it was discussed. He said he hadn’t. I said in the Commission the Commissioner didn’t want the document to be distributed like this, he wanted it given out to everyone; and that I can’t see that it will be profitable for the branch to play the fool with the Commission. I added that doing the distribution this way, with an announcement with no context for the brothers and sisters to understand, was not showing compassion for the victims. His reply was, “Rest assured that the brothers at the branch are handling these matters properly.” I said they were now, after the Royal Commission. Unfortunately he found himself no longer able to bear such talk and walked off to talk about more important things with other elders.
Yeah Ricardo, pretty dull & a waste of time, at least we had a free Sunday, the bit on Russia was sickening, i reminded a person that Putin is turning on all religion, not just ours, & its communism to remember.My monthly report for March is the 1st zero i have ever reported in over 40 years, i just do calls now anyway, the Main talk had a glaring error, he said that the rich man missed out on everlasting life because he couldn’t get rid of his belongings, what about the resurrection, i reckon the speaker knew it to, his face showed, i noted to that the numbers in bethal have depleted, The JW like to think they are the only group people who are doing any good, that bugs me, i deal with many people in my line of work & have had some wonderful experiences, it has taken a long time to realize this, also when i was serving i had forgotten how to communicate with the rank & file, now i can & watch the current bunch just run round in circles with bits of paper unable to have any meaningful conversations with people, i don’t give talks & don’t answer up, for the last 4 to 5 years, not one comment from an elder, sick bunch, well as said the fruit age is evident here, dead dead dead.
@Whip It,
Wow! A new path in your life, the zero hour path. No doubt you have difficulty like I do to be motivated. Our friend Messenger made a good suggestion the other day: if you are finding it hard to direct people to our organization, just direct them to the Bible. Not that we will find anyone interested enough to want to listen, I should think.
Whip It, how do you keep yourself positive? Like, I want to encourage you, but I don’t know what to say. I feel so negative. I hate going to meetings, I don’t like so many things with this organization. I find it is easy to pull the ideas presented to bits. But I want to be positive, find something to say to encourage others, not just complain, complain, complain. Any ideas?
I have a great job, that keeps me busy & happy, some good friends as well, i have learnt to just turn off. i have plenty of other interests that keep me occupied, this site is great to,
@Whip It,
Turning off is good. Until that plastic face Steven Lett jumps out of the screen at you, like what happened this week. There should be some warning given. There we are expecting someone normal to appear to talk about welcoming people, and it’s as if a clown suddenly hit the screen. Scared the life out of me, it did. I think the sound guy increased the volume just as he started speaking, making it even scarier.
This site doesn’t help with the switching off. It draws one back to the reality of our situation.
I need to get some interests. My job is in Caboolture, and it means working with some mean characters (do you know much about Caboolture?), not exactly a great job, it doesn’t make me happy until pay day.
Maybe I need anti-depressants like so many other witnesses.