There are many small ways we can help free people from Watchtower's influence
There are many small ways we can help free people from Watchtower’s influence

It’s only through happenstance that I came to be an admin here at JWsurvey, but it was an opportunity I was happy to accept, because I love helping the cause.

One of my duties is sorting any contact emails that arrive. I often see messages of support and thanks for the information provided here.

A recurring theme in these messages is a desire to help. Speaking from personal experience, I can completely relate. Curtailing Watchtower’s influence is a cause I fully support.

Like so many of you reading this, my time as a Witness is marked with painful memories of unnecessary grief caused by Watchtower’s policies. When it all got to be too much, I had to make the difficult decision to leave behind those I had grown up with, including my immediate family.

The past twelve years have been a time of rebuilding and discovering what life really is all about. I’m never sorry that I decided to leave, but I still resent what I had to go through to get to where I am today.

My parents and sister have no contact with me. And, even though I live three hours from my hometown, news of my involvement with the ex-JW movement appears to have spread. I’ve recently started experiencing shunning when out and about in my current location. This new development has made me wonder what more I can do to help stop this from happening to others.

Great things can be achieved when we pull together under a common cause
Great things can be achieved when we pull together under a common cause

I don’t consider myself to be a leader in the cause. I’m not the type to uncover secrets and expose hidden policies. Truth be told, there are already so many who do this, and in my opinion they do it well. Cedars and others like him are doing a great job of putting Watchtower’s flaws out there for the public to see.

New YouTube videos are being added every day. Facebook and Twitter are buzzing with stories about things Watchtower wants to keep quiet. The information is there, and that’s where WE come in.

All of us have a unique opportunity to make all this effort pay off. Others have done the hard part, now it’s our turn to spread the information. We can all draw attention to the stories and blogs by sharing them with others. By word of mouth and social media, we can each play a part in getting the message out to a wider audience.

It may require an act of courage, or stepping out of our comfort zone. But unless more of us take this leap, the efforts of those doing the research and writing cannot reach their full potential. We can all be the backing chorus to the work being done. By lending our voices, we make the message stronger.

The more issues such as shunning and mishandling of child sex abuse are put in the public eye, the more momentum builds. Every opportunity we take to share is an opportunity to help someone avoid the pain we’ve experienced inside the Watchtower.

With increasing numbers of active Witnesses using the internet, we have a chance to show them the reality of their “truth.” As opinions start to change, everything we do puts just a little more pressure on Watchtower to make reforms and end their oppressive and often life-threatening practices.

As your fellow chorus member, I’m asking you all to consider supporting those who are leading the charge in the fight against Watchtower by sharing their message at every opportunity. The more we speak up, the more the world will notice, and lives could even be saved.









Further reading…

Related video…

257 thoughts on “What can we all do to help?

  • March 13, 2014 at 8:15 am

    Thanks for the scriptures.
    Cheers Duds

  • March 13, 2014 at 8:24 am

    It is not for to judge anyone Rowland, but I can choose with whom I associate, and yes it’s only JWs with whom I can enjoy a really decent statard of association without indulging in the crass smutt thrown freely about in the outside world.

    If through being part of this world it makes you feel inferior to those who chose not to be, the I am afraid that’s your problem and you have to live the life you wish.

    I choose to do as the Bible commands and is to try and walk in footsteps of Christ.

    If you want to try and tell that the world today is a safe fine healthly place , spiritually and morally, then go ahead, I could do with a good laugh!

    • March 14, 2014 at 1:24 pm

      Carol – your rudeness increases.

      You are part of the world! Stop kidding yourself.

      Where does your food come from? From the soil of planet Earth, i.e. the World, and the labours of fellow humans. Ditto your clothes and home.

      Not only are your posts the height (or depths) of insulting rudeness in that you refuse to acknowledge any points others make – you make no attempt whatever to make a considered reply.

      All we get is: ‘I am not part of the word -it’s too horrid for me – I live by the Bible’.

      You have failed to explain your take on the Bible. As a Jehovah’s Witness you are beholden to believe and to behave according to the words of the Gov. Bod. Yet you claim to despise the Gov. Bod, the very guys on whom you depend for your take on the Bible.

      Carol – the depths of your delusion become clearer with your every post. You imagine you are not part of the world. That is plainly ridiculous because you are part of the world.

      You call yourself a Jehovah’s Witness, but you want to join the campaign to undermine, or even remove, the guys who make your Bible based religion what it is.

      I do not expect any answers or explanations. You have proved yourself utterly incapable.

      I sincerely hope you are able, one day, to recover.

      Best wishes.

    • March 14, 2014 at 11:55 pm

      Carol – You make no attempt whatever to understand the comments of others.

      What on earth moved you to write:

      ‘If through being part of this world it makes you feel inferior to those who chose not to be, the I am afraid that’s your problem and you have to live the life you wish.’

      There are three idiocies contained in that quote from your last post:

      1. I do not feel ‘inferior’. Where did I write that?

      2. Nobody on planet earth can choose not to be part of it. Yes, I know the JWs pretend they are not a part of the world. They also pretend they are not a part of Christendom. As a bunch of inhabitants of planet Earth they are an intrinsic part of the world. As members of a late 19th century spinoff sect of American Adventism, JWs (and you, Carol, as you are still a JW) are as much a part of Christendom as they are of the world.

      3. I do not have a ‘problem’ acknowledging fundamental, basic and screamingly obvious facts.

      I do, however, have a problem with someone like you, Carol, who imagines she can fling insults at those who do not share her tragic delusions, and who refuses to answer any questions whatever.

      Best wishes, and here’s to your recovery!

      • March 15, 2014 at 1:33 am

        Ah Rowland, I am happy with my mission to bring down the GB, nothing else.

        I do not criticise, nor do I insult anyone here, you all have your free will to practice what you want, delusion airy or not.

        I respect your right to free will, why not try to be a decent chap for a change and respect mine?

        Colossians 3:17
        17 Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.

        • March 15, 2014 at 2:09 am

          I have explained, several times, Carol, the nature of your insults.

          You claim that ‘the world’ does not measure up to your standards. (whatever they are- despite repeated requests, you have refused to explain).

          I know I am part of the world. Why should I ‘respect’ your ridiculous and insulting delusion?

          Do you ‘respect’ Al Qaedr suicide bombers who sacrifice their lives by following, as they believe, the commands of their God, as set down in his Holy Book?

          I have given up expecting any answers from you. You are capable only of insults.

          Here,anyway, is another question.

          What, without the Gov. Bod. will the JWs consist of?

          JWs without the Gov. Bod. sounds to me like an axe with neither blade nor handle.

          I realise asking questions is a futile pursuit, certainly in the short term, but maybe you will ponder and realise how you are, whether you like it or not, a part of the world.

          You may also begin to realise that merely by saying ‘I follow the Bible and Christ Jesus’, tells us almost nothing. Billions the world over do just that, but there is clearly no consensus on what that means.

          Beyond the fact that you are a JW who despises the Gov. Bod. ( a contradiction in terms if ever there was one), you have explained nothing, zilch, zero about what the message of the Bible and Jesus Christ mean for you.

          Hence I can only surmise. Does a Gov. Bod. despising, Bible believing practising JW believe that Armageddon is imminent and that Jehovah will then execute not, Gov. Bod. style, every human being whose thoughts and actions do not conform to the ever changing and weird edicts of the Gov. Bod., but, instead, every human being whose thoughts and actions do not conform to the edicts of Carol?

          At least the Gov. Bod. for all that their edicts are cruel, inconsistent and ridiculous, publish endless screeds explaining what they are about. Carol has done nothing of the sort.

          She has, thus far, demonstrated that she is incapable.

          Your arrogance and insults, Carol, deserve not respect, but a mix of condemnation and pity.

          Here’s to your recovery!

  • March 13, 2014 at 2:10 pm


    “No man nor organisation is greater that the Almighty Lord and His Son Jesus.”

    I would say that my organization is greater than god’s simply because mine is proveably in existence.

    I would also claim that my morals are higher than god’s. Under no circumstances would I require a rape victim to marry her attacker. Yet, under certain conditions, this is what is exactly required by mosaic law.

    • March 13, 2014 at 7:37 pm

      But you live contra to God’s will.

      Of course that’s your decision to make as God gave you free will.

      It is not for me to judge you, but judgement by the Higher Authority is inevitable!

  • March 13, 2014 at 4:51 pm


    When you say that I have an “empty life” because I am an atheist and reject evidence that does not back your view, I realise that I don’t want your help.

    No, really, I don’t need your kind of help.

    Yes, you want to remove the GB. Good so far. And then replace them with an accountable replacement. Again, that’s great.

    But then you’d raise the drawbridge and an empty atheist like me would no longer need to be listened to.

    I suggest that you learn to respect others views. I suggest you remove the straw in your own eye, and learn that atheism is not synonymous with a lack of morals.

    For the record, I have a full, singular life! I am a unique human being, and I have a positive moral code. I work hard to make my community better.

    Peace be with you


  • March 13, 2014 at 7:43 pm

    I can’t only respect what God requires of mankind as is instructed in the Holy Bible.

    My vision is clear, as I endeavour to walk in the path of our Lord Jesus, as we are all commanded to do.

    You were blessed with free will, as I was, to do what ever you wish!

  • March 13, 2014 at 7:55 pm

    I agree fully with you Duds there is much wrong with the doctrine of the Bethel and people are being fooled every day. This is why it is essential the bring those hiding behind the deception called the Governing Body into account by exposing the fraud that they truly are.

    I make a great effort to explain here that I take my authority from the Bible only, not the Watchtower. Yes I attend meetings and yes I continue to ask question, again taking my authority to do so from the Holy Bible. Luke 11:9. Matthew 7.7.

    No Elder dare question that… they suffer me in silence and my similar questions, which all in the congregation think……just keep on coming!

    • March 13, 2014 at 9:16 pm

      Hi Carol
      You made some nice comments, and chose a good scripture to back up. Now I don’t deny your authority the Bible. I just hope you use it more, and by saying that, I mean, quote the contents of Bible, that back up your arguments, especially, if your discussing doctrine. You may also need to quote from other recognized historical books as an added weight to your argument.

      Even atheist are willing to listen to sound arguments, however, you your self must listen to them, its not enough to just say, its in the Bible. You also have to prove the logic of your beliefs. If your want to show there was an earth wide flood, you have to provide adequate evidence to show that!

      Atheist are good readers and are intelligent and incidental whether they agree or not Christ Jesus died for them. So remember, you want to help them to gain everlasting life, not turn them away by offering bald statements. If its not possible to provide constructive criticism, wouldn’t it be better to refrain from commenting, until after you have sufficient material to do so?

      May you have peace

      • March 14, 2014 at 1:53 am

        To me Duds it’s all so uncomplicated, I don’t need the subterfuge of smoke screens to support my beliefs:

        Psalm 27:3
        3 Though an army should set up camp against me,
        My heart will not fear.
        Though war should break out against me,
        Even then I will remain confident.

        And of course proverbs 3.

        • March 14, 2014 at 2:18 am

          Hi Carol

          What are you trying to prove?

          That you have an unbreakable faith in God?

          If that’s the case how does that help one understand the Bible?

          Put your faith to the test give something worthwhile that will contribute to the well being of others instead of promoting your self. Try reading 1Cor13:1-3.

          Have peace Duds

        • March 14, 2014 at 3:11 am

          You don’t, of course, need smoke screens, Carol – nobody does.

          What you could do with is opening your eyes and ears.

          Apart from the fact that you are a JW who detests the JW Gov. Bod., a contradiction in terms if ever there was one, you have explained nothing whatever about your beliefs.

          You bang on about the Bible, but the Bible has been, and is, the foundation for myriads of different sects.

          What, exactly, do you believe? Do you believe that jesus appointed St. Peter as the first Pope and that subsequent Popes have continued to be God’s sole earthly rep?

          Do you want to ape the first Christians, as described in the opening chapter of Acts, and forswear private property and live communally, as the Hutterites do?

          Do you believe in the curative power of shrines and pilgrimages as do many Copts, Catholics and Orthodox?

          How can you expect support, Carol, for a set of beliefs, which could be anything at all?

          If, as you say, you are still a JW, but feel free to trash the Gov. Bod., do you also feel free to bin Armageddon?…. to celebrate Christmas, Easter and Birthdays?

          Coming on here, saying, in effect:’ I am superior to all the world out there because I believe the Bible’ is as disgusting as it is meaningless and ridiculous.

          You may imagine you have nothing to apologise for, but you must agree that you owe us all an explanation of what, exactly, Christianity means to you.

          By definition and tradition, JWdom means anything and everything spouted by the JW bosses in speech and in print. To continue as a JW, but to despise its essence (i.e the Gov. Bod.) makes as much sense as being a meat eating vegetarian.

    • March 13, 2014 at 9:16 pm

      Every single individual, as well as the thousands of sects in Christendom, take their authority from the Bible.

      What is so special about this Carol style/reformed JW take, (whatever that is) that gives you this abhorrent sense of superiority, this ridiculous delusion, JW style, that you are not part of this world?

      Why do you feel no need to give any evidence that the Bible is divinely inspired and that your take on it, (whatever that is) is the one true God approved version?

      I agree with Excelsior. My life has been enriched no end since realising that the Bible is simply a man made collection of fallible writings.

      You cherish your repulsive delusion, Carol, that you can, by closing the man made door to your man made house, and shutting out your fellow humans, cut yourself off from the world that sustains you. You even imagine, JW style, that you are no part of the world.

      Knocking out the Gov. Bod. Jehovah monster is obviously a good thing. All you offer, Carol, is a Carol style Bible monster God to replace it.

      Do not imagine you can write all this stuff declaring your own divinely directed superiority and not feel the flak of disgust that your unevidenced and sanctimonious assertions are bound to generate.

      • March 13, 2014 at 11:06 pm

        Hi Rowland Nelken

        I taken it from your comments, that you assume that I’m no part of this world. Well, I am a part, I really don’t know how I can’t be, I’m as imperfect as the rest of mankind, that I share this wonderful planet with. You,the atheist, the criminal, Jws, Christendom, Hindu, Moslem and new age people, and the conspiracy people, the weird, the wild and you can go on. Yes, I am a part of this world that your apart of. I don’t agree,however, with all of the worlds views, perhaps you do, I don’t know. Maybe you have set yourself apart from some?
        You make this assertion, I’ve joined Coral to somehow reform the WTS GB. I think, its is too late for reform. Then you accuse me of having an abhorrent sense of superiority. While you were writing that, I was writing to Carol trying to help her get a better view of you and others. I don’t in any way feel superior to you or anyone. I’m sorry, if I gave you that impression. I am in no position to judge others, however, I like to contribute and help. While we are in this world (including us all) we have to judge in minor ways, as in constructive criticism. Otherwise, things just do not improve.
        The Bible stands for itself.
        I agree there is no real way to conclusively show, that it is the inspired word of God. But, that in its self does not dismiss it, as not being true. I cannot fully explain everything, but I’m learning. It has won the respect of many learned persons including Sir Isaac Newton, Werner Keller who was a non theologian, he wrote in the foreword of his book “The Bible as History” after summing up all the evidence he had before him, that, “ there kept hammering on his brain this one sentence ‘ the Bible is right after all””
        From your closing comments you again insinuate that I have some unhealthy attitude over you or toward you. I don’t believe I’m any better than you or any one else on this site. I have all the same frail imperfections as you all. You have chosen a way for yourself, I don’t Judge you for that. You have free will Like me. I have chosen another way. My way may not be the best way but it is a way, and its the choice I’ve made.
        Have peace

        • March 13, 2014 at 11:18 pm

          Sorry, Duds. My comments have been directed at Carol. It is she, not you, who is sufficiently deluded to imagine she is not part of this world and who imagines there is no need to research the provenance of the Bible in order to declare it the infallible word of God, and her take on it (whatever that is- she has not explained) the one, true, correct and Godly one.

          Sorry about any misunderstanding.

          • March 13, 2014 at 11:50 pm

            Its all sweet, thanks, apology accepted
            Cheers Duds

  • March 14, 2014 at 2:14 am


    I believe that you have been blessed with a lot to think about.

    I hope that you will think about the evidence that has been presented to you. I hope that discussing freely on this site has widened your experience. I hope that you can see that atheists and agnostics are not immoral people.

    Peace be with you


  • March 14, 2014 at 2:57 am

    Carol, imagine there is someone who really counts a lot for you. There is nothing more important for you than making this person happy. But as this person is not near you someone brings to you a letter he claims it’s from this person …

    You read this letter, but it doesn’t quite sound comprehensive to you, but the has a signature that says it was written, let’s say, by his secretary. Besides, the guy who brought it to you looks hard at you saying “don’t dare doubting it”. Then you distinctly hear other people claiming a letter for you too, but this guy says no, don’t ever think about paying attention to that.

    As much as you “know” this person, what you get in this letter (or those letters, if you’re curious to check others) don’t seem to add up.

    You say, you’re not going to take it all easy, you REALLY want to know what this person thinks and maybe, expects you to do.

    And all this time while you’re questioning things, this person sees your questions and efforts. He also sees that you’re not taking in everything you’re given just like that, because you really do care about this person.

    How would this person feel about you ?

    To me, it’s just the same. I’m not letting pass what doesn’t add up. And I think it’s wrong to do this.

    There is nothing to be taken for granted IMHO.

  • March 14, 2014 at 5:10 am

    Hi Rowland,
    Had a rest, when I came back and re-read our posts. I notice I was mistaken.I owe you an apology, sorry Rowland.
    My name was at the top of the post and when I read your 1st paragraph I thought I was included in the discussion. Sorry to have put you thru that grind.
    may you have peace

  • March 14, 2014 at 8:44 am

    Thank you very much for your comments. A god who condones rape!!!

  • March 14, 2014 at 11:59 pm

    No problem, Duds!

  • March 15, 2014 at 1:36 am

    Duds who am I to even consider promoting myself, you have some weird ideas for an obviously intelligent persons…..why?

    Who am I when considering how Our Lord Jesus died for us?

    I wonder how many her would do the same for Him?

    I would!

    • March 15, 2014 at 2:35 am

      Hi Carol

      Thanks for bringing to my attention that I have a weird idea. I never thought I did, but anyway, it may have come about by reading your post.

      I’m sorry, I just couldn’t make sense of it, if you weren’t trying to promote your self what were you trying to say ?

      What did you mean when you said “to me it all so uncomplicated?

      Then you said “I don’t need the subterfuge of smoke screens to support my beliefs:” What was this suppose to mean? Was this about you or someone else?

      Than the Scripture you quoted, what was I to presume from that, if not, to believe you were applying it to your faith?

      Please take the time to explain, I really would like to know what you meant. It will help me get rid of these weird ideas.

      May you have peace

      • March 15, 2014 at 2:43 am

        What is this supposed to mean? It seems that you believe in an imminent Judgement Day when God will zap all who do not have a Carol style interpretation of the scriptures.

        Is this what you mean? If so, why?

        • March 15, 2014 at 2:49 am

          Hi Rowland
          Never said anything about Judgement day, Carol said.
          You got one of her posts mixed up with mine.
          Cheers Duds

  • March 15, 2014 at 1:40 am

    I have much to think about constantly in my Bible studies thank you.

    The Lord gives everyone the opportunity to draw close to him together with a free will. Therefore I guess we all are what we chose to be! Consequently there will be no acceptable excuse on The Judgement Day!

  • March 15, 2014 at 2:46 am

    My reply, below, Duds, was to Carol’s post, not to yours. I am relieved, anyway, to discover that I am not the only one who finds Carol’s posts utterly bereft of constructive meaning, if not stuffed full of implied insults.

  • March 15, 2014 at 3:08 am


    “There will be no acceptable excuse on judgement day!”

    You, madam, are an example of why I cannot believe in God.

    You constantly look for differences, you judge the entire world as beneath you morally, and you have nothing but contempt for those who do not believe.

    You have contributed nothing to this debate. I fail to see what you hope to accomplish. You are 100% right and we all need to benefit from your stirring example. I have seldom met anyone with less humility than you.

    Peace be with you

    Because I am categorically not with you


  • March 15, 2014 at 3:23 am

    Rowland, Duds, and everyone else that has tried,
    Sadly anyone that says
    “Consequently there will be no acceptable excuse on The Judgement Day!”

    is currently just parroting the group speak. The cult shutters have come down, you are not dealing with Carol, you are speaking to her cult persona, that will defend her beliefs because she has adopted that identity. It is an identity not of self but that of the group identity. The only way this can be overcome is by acceptance and acknowledgement, gathered through increasing awareness.
    Singer – says that all cults are based firstly on a thought reform programme and that such programmes aim to dilute people’s individuality, change their core belief systems and alter their concept of themselves. What happens is that a person’s own beliefs and values become aligned with the group and they are persuaded that everything about their former lives, personality and character before joining the group was worthless and degenerate. They then feel they have the authority to condemn everyone who does not have the group thinking – hence statements such as –
    Consequently there will be no acceptable excuse on The Judgement Day!
    Being part of the group, even if it makes them unhappy provides a opportunity for ready made answers, thus helping to reduce insecurity and fear. Everything is seen in terms of black and white, pure and the impure, good and evil.
    Lifton identifies “the thought-terminating cliché” such as repetitive phrases, clichés, sayings, platitudes and buzz words to describe all situations, and prevent further analysis or discussion. Any disagreements are usually settled by referring to the sayings or writings of wise leaders (past or present), rather than by turning to independent analysis.
    Knowing about cult group thinking and how it effects personal identity can sometimes help a person to start forging their own identity and to unhook from the group thinking.

    • March 15, 2014 at 4:12 am

      Thanks for that. ‘So Glad t be out’. I have also read that another feature of the cult warped mindset is the veneration of the cult boss or bosses as if they were a God.

      Carol comes on here because, despite knowing, as a Jehovah’s Witness, that she is right, saved and superior, wants to expose and bring down her ‘divinely appointed boss’ the Gov. Bod.

      Has any cult expert ever described this utterly contradictory variant on the cult mindset?

    • March 15, 2014 at 4:14 am

      Hi So glad to be out

      Nice post, I’m not up to date on cult persona or mind control, but from what you have written, I can see how it applies. I particularly liked the comment.

      “Being part of the group, even if it makes them unhappy provides a opportunity for ready made answers, thus helping to reduce insecurity and fear.”

      I felt that way for years until I had to face up to reality and make my own decisions as to what was right and wrong. I now do not need an organization to do my thinking. I still have a crutch though, the Bible, I still believe it holds hope for all sinners including Carol and my self.

      May you have peace


  • March 15, 2014 at 4:29 am


    Thanks for your great posts recently. I do feel a bit guilty about my previous post to Carol. I don’t like posting comments like that because it divides us.

    Carol wants to do the right thing, and I do not question her integrity or her sincere belief in her God.

    So, Carol, I am sorry if I came across as rude to you. I need to distinguish between your choices, which I do not approve of, and you as a human being, who I have deep respect for.

    I salute your desire to remove the GB. I do feel, however, that you need to find some common ground with those of us who no longer believe.


    I am glad that you have been able to make that step. I do not feel as if you are judging me or humouring me. You are trying to follow the example of Jesus, who I still retain a lot of respect for.

    Peace be with you


    • March 15, 2014 at 5:21 am

      Hi Excelsior
      Thanks for your kind thoughts. Nice thoughts about Carol too.
      We all need that sort of encouragement to keep going. You have made some fine post yourself.
      Appreciate your thought, that I’m not treating (hope that’s the right word) you. That would be the last thing I’d want, I’d rather have you as a friend than an enemy as someone once said.
      May you have peace.

    • March 16, 2014 at 12:25 am

      Hi all,
      I hope you, who is a Trinitarian, has a sense of humor.

      There’s God the Father, Holy Ghost and Son.
      The Churches teach that these are one.
      Not one but three, and the three are one.
      The Holy Ghost is God, and they’re both the Son.
      Mary was the mother of JC, but not of the other two you see.
      They,re all co equal, and co eternal, but God came first, so He’s paternal.
      They’re all the same but different too, I’m trying to make this clear for you.
      God is one, but in essence three, sitting by himself eternally.
      Christ descended into hell says the apostles creed.
      Stayed three days, and left with speed, back to heaven, and the other two
      no longer a couple, but a few !

      from the pen of Mark Long

      Enjoy Duds

      • March 16, 2014 at 2:39 am

        Carol is a tragic case of confusion – to be a devoted JW but against the Gov. Bod. is a contradiction in terms. The JWs and their ever changing nonsense exist only because there is a Gov. Bod. Zap the Gov. Bod. and the JWs disappear in a flash. If Carol is successful in creating a post Gov. Bod. world, she will have to adjust to a world with no JWs. She will be forced to acknowledge that glaringly obvious fact, that she lives in the world and is an intrinsic part of it.

        • March 16, 2014 at 3:09 am

          Obviously Rowland you have little respect for anyone’s views except your very own brand of myopic parochialism!

          Did you not read Ceders’s post on the brave stances taken by certain JWs to leak information.

          May I respectfully suggest that perhaps it’s time that you discarded diapers for trouser, of course short ones at first!

  • March 15, 2014 at 5:04 am

    Yes, Hassan says that you are working on multiple levels. You are not only dealing with the cult identity, but also with the authentic identity. As the interchange of information filters into the authentic identity there is resistance or an internal and external fight can take place, – dissonance. Reducing the phobic fear is the next stage along with a reinforcement of the authentic self.

  • March 16, 2014 at 3:12 am

    Everyone has their own excuses for not understanding the simply Words Of God!

    Ps I am no Trinitarian!

  • March 16, 2014 at 3:13 am

    To Duds

    Everyone has their own excuses for not understanding the simple Words Of God!

    Ps I am no Trinitarian!

    • March 16, 2014 at 3:55 am

      I thought, you of all persons (a non trinitarian) would have appreciated that little bit of verse. How much difficulty have you faced in trying to explain the trinity. Is it complicated or not?
      And beside you misunderstood what I had written, I wasn’t implying you or anyone else was a trinitarian I was just hoping the person who may be a trintarian might see the funny side.

  • March 16, 2014 at 4:50 am


    “Everyone has their own excuses for not understanding the simple words of God”

    Your use of “excuse” is pejorative. I have reasons for not believing the simple words of God. I have no difficulty understanding it. It is indeed simple. God created everything. The bible was inspired by God. I agree, very simple.

    I have shared some of my reasons for not believing the simple word of God. I have a great many of them.

    I do not want to get into an argument over belief. I will simply say this. If you want to join a group of people who are trying to bring the GB to justice, then for goodness sake stop your incessant passive aggressive attacks at people like myself who do not have a religious belief.

    You constantly imply that atheists are immoral, and are somehow deficient in their reasoning. I find it offensive and I want you to stop.

    If you want to join together and fight the gross injustices of the GB of the WTBTS, then let’s work together with mutual respect.

    I have to hold my tongue with folks of faith like you. I do not constantly state my beliefs and denigrate the beliefs of others, and I expect the same courtesy from you.

    Peace be with you


    • March 16, 2014 at 5:12 am

      Nicely said Excelsior!

    • March 16, 2014 at 5:33 am

      Hear hear, Excelsior!

      Please, Carol, if you are happy slinging insults at those who do not share your views (whatever they are, you have failed, utterly, to explain), please continue.

      Just remember, that you are part of the world, for all that you kid yourself you are not. As a JW, pro or anti Gov. Bod. you inhabit one of th world’s ugliest little corners.

      The only consolation I can imagine for your tragic state of mind, is that you must be utterly ineffectual as a JW door knocking mag. pusher.

      Merely saying:

      ‘I am absolutely right about everything because I follow Christ and the Bible but I will never explain, no matter how many times I am asked, what that means’

      is likely to be as big a turnoff to anybody who opens the door long enough for you to deliver your TMS spiel.

      Here’s to your recovery from your hideous delusion and obscene arrogance! Best wishes.

    • March 16, 2014 at 7:06 am

      I have not attacked any one here, passively or otherwise. I think if you read back the boot is on the foot and it is I who have been attacked for simply adhering to Bible principles!

      • March 16, 2014 at 9:09 am

        Carol – you understand almost nothing of what you write, never mind the writings of others.

        By coming out with this ‘I am not of the world’ stuff, you are insulting all of us who know that we are part of it.

        By believing in a Judgement Day wherein all Bible believers will be saved and the rest of us damned, your insults reach the depths of obscenity.

        You also seem to imagine that salvation depends on following the Carol style version (As opposed to Gov. Bod. style version) of JWdom, yet you refuse, despite repeated requests, to explain what that is.

        JWdom is a creation of the JW bosses, from Russell to the current JW Gov. Bod. All their crazy ever changing, vaguely Bible related ‘TRUTHS’ are the essence of JWdom. To be a JW, as you claim, Carol, and yet to be against the Gov. Bod. is as logical as being a supporter of the Republican party but against its every policy and its every representative.

        What, for the umpteenth time, Carol, is your take on the Bible? Is there, in your Bible interpretation, an imminent Armageddon in which Jehovah will zap all who do not interpret the Bible and act upon its commands (whatever that is, and whatever they are) exactly like you do?

        If anyone ever opens the door long enough, what on earth do you say to them? ‘I am a Jehovah’s Witness who detests the essence of the sect I represent, but I want you to join the same detestable sect’?

        Please try and understand, Carol, why you come over as arrogant, muddled, insulting and ridiculous.

        Here’s to your recovery!

  • March 16, 2014 at 6:41 am


    “Everyone has their own excuses for not understanding the simple Words Of God!”

    You’re absolutely right, Carol. My ‘excuse,’ though, has little to do with not understanding. The opposite is true, I understand all too well. I understand that the faith you place in the bible is exactly as firmly based as your explanation here. The base is non-existent.
    As I peeled back the layers I was able to see that the stories were myths. Also, some of the morals in the bible are atrocities, such as god sending bears to kill youths because of an insult.
    My ‘excuse’ is actual knowledge of what the bible says as compared to reason, common sense, and historical and scientific reality.

    I hope that you find and excuse soon also.

  • March 16, 2014 at 7:14 am

    I regret to inform you Excelsior that being an atheist , does not conform to Bible principles and is therefore offensive to those that do……did you ever try to think of it that way?

    I never brought this subject up. Those here who oppose a belief in the Word of God did!

  • March 16, 2014 at 7:25 am


    Of course an atheist isn’t going to adhere to biblical ideals.

    Biblical principles make many people horrendously arrogant and seriously muddies there capacity for thinking.

    • March 16, 2014 at 1:46 pm

      Rowland for your persistent ignorance and insufferable conduct to those who believe in Bible truths you are now formally ignored, you may rant as mush as you desire, you will not be answered.

      However please dwell upon these few scriptures.

      “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.” (John 15:19)

      “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.”(John 17:14)

      “Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.” (James 1:27)

      “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world – the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life – is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1 John 2:15)

      “Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.”(James 4:4)

      Now for the rest of you atheists here, go enjoy your creed and I will enjoy mine. Let’s us get on with the fine work that Ceders has started and stop bickering like kids!

      • March 16, 2014 at 3:29 pm

        Jn 1:9 ( Jesus)was about to come into the world. Jn1:10 (Jesus) was in the world. Jn 1:29 ( Jesus) takes away the sins of the world. Jn 3:16 God loved the world. Jn 17:15 (Jesus) request not to take them out of the world but to watch over. Jn 17:16 no part of world . Jn 12:47 I came not to judge the world but to save the world. Jn 13:1 Jesus having loved his own that were in the world loved them to the end. 1Jn 2:2 propitiatory sacrifice for (not just disciples) but also for the whole world’s.
        1Jn 2:15 do not be loving either the world or things in world. 1Jn 2:17 World passing away.
        1Jn 3:17 Who ever (Christ followers) has this world’s means for supporting life. 1Jn 4:14 Son as saviour of the world 1Jn 4:17 we (disciples) ourselves in this world. Rev 11:kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord.
        Carol in these scriptures, (many others not cited) show 1. Jesus was in the world, hence a part of it yet was no part of it. 2 his disciples were in the world (also being apart of it) yet they were not to be apart of it. 3 That God loved the world ,and Jesus came to save the world, and Jesus is a sacrifice for whole world. 4 The disciples could have the world means for supporting life. 5 World was passing away. Than finally 6 The kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of the Lord.
        Can you see that God and Jesus saw something good in the world, that God was willing to send His Son for it? That Jesus was willing to suffer and die for it? What was it, that moved them to do that? Did they want them to die? No, in fact the world is saved as Rev. says, the kingdom of the world became the kingdom of the Lord. So what is the world that passes away, and that we’re not to be apart of ? Those worldly attitudes and unrighteous things that causes mankind to sin. God and Jesus just like a loving family will determine who will be worthy to live in his house not us.
        Balance is needed in using the term not of this world. Jesus requested his disciples not to be taken out of the world (which we are all apart of) but to watch over them. The term is not unique to WTS many organisation separate them selves from the world, meaning they don’t promote the immoral and unhealthy attitude as displayed by many in the world.
        Take care Duds

      • March 16, 2014 at 5:06 pm

        There is no atheist creed.

        As I have reminded you countless times you cannot demonstrate the God issued truth of the Bible by quoting the Bible, any more than I could demonstrate the God issued truth of what I write by quoting myself.

        As expected, Carol, you have proved yourself utterly incapable of addressing any points raised and have failed to answer anything.

        At least it gives me confidence that you can only fail totally to make any converts to your insufferable delusions on your door knocking rounds.

        Best wishes.

      • March 17, 2014 at 12:44 am

        Carol – your ‘ignoring’ my comments will make no difference at all.

        You have failed, totally to address, let alone answer, any of the points and questions I raised.

        All we have had from you is your foul and ostentatious piety.

        You claim to follow Jesus Christ, but in Matthew 6. 5 Jesus refers to your brand of ostentatious piety in the most unflattering terms:

        And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
        are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
        in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
        Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

        You have ignored every one of my words. Thus far, too, you have shown yourself incapable of noticing some of the wiser words of Jesus.

  • March 16, 2014 at 1:48 pm

    So you say reader……then be happy with that!

  • March 16, 2014 at 2:02 pm

    Well done! It appears Carol is going to ignore you. Unfortunately from Carol – ignoring appears to mean – I will continue to be arrogant, quote scriptures, be patronising to the point of embarrassment and tell everyone else what they should do.
    It does not mean – I will have a constructive dialogue, be respectful, considerate of other views, research ideas and express myself thoughtfully and rationally.
    Excelsior, I have enjoyed your thoughtful comments.

    • March 17, 2014 at 2:10 am

      I would say that it all depends what is in your heart. I can’t understand those who chose to disbelieve, but I respect your right to do so. It’s pitifully that you do not respect mine!!

      You see as Christians, we have to constantly face temptations and the attacks of the world around us. Everything we see, read, do, hear, put in our bodies, etc., affects us somehow. That’s why, to maintain a close relationship with God, we have to put aside our old ways of doing things—the things we watch on TV, old bad habits (excessive drinking, smoking, etc.), the activities we participate in, and the people we spend our time with. It is clearly explained in the Holy Bible that People are divided into only two categories, those who belong to the world and its ruler, Satan, and those who belong to God (Acts 26:18). These two groups of people are described in terms of opposites all through the Bible; e.g., those in darkness/those in the light; those with eternal life/those with eternal death; those who have peace with God/those who are at war with Him; those who believe the truth/those who believe the lies; those on the narrow path to salvation/those on the broad road to destruction, and many more. Clearly, the message of Scripture is that believers are completely different from nonbelievers, and it is from this perspective that we must discern what kind of friendships we can really have with unbelievers.

      The book of Proverbs has a few wise verses on believers befriending non-believers: “The righteous should choose his friends carefully, for the way of the wicked leads them astray” (12:26). We should stay away from foolish people (13:20, 14:7), from people who lose their temper easily (22:24), and from the rebellious (24:21). All these things represent those who have not been saved. “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14). First Corinthians 15:33 tells us that bad company corrupts good character. Unbelievers are slaves to sin (John 8:34), and Christians are slaves to God (1 Corinthians 7:22). If we become deeply involved (either by friendship or a romantic relationship) with non-Christians, we are setting ourselves up for turmoil. It can (and does often) cause the Christian to stumble in his walk, fall back into a sinful life, and also turn others away from God (by misrepresenting God and Christianity). Another detrimental effect of closeness with unbelievers is our tendency to water down the truths of Scripture so as to not offend them. There are difficult truths in the Word of God, truths such as judgment and hell. When we minimize or ignore these doctrines or try to “soft pedal” them, in essence we are calling God a liar for the sake of those already in the grasp of Satan. This is not evangelism.

      Although these close relationships are not recommended, it does not mean we turn our noses up and ignore unbelievers, either. Second Timothy 2:24-26 tells us that as servants of the Lord, we are to be kind to and not quarrel with anyone. We should gently teach those who oppose the truth, and be patient with difficult people. Matthew 5:16 tells us, “Let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly father.” We should serve unbelievers so that they may see God through us and turn to Him in praise. James 5:16 says that there is great power in the prayer of a righteous person, so bring your concerns for unbelievers before God, and He will listen.

      I realise that Many people have been saved because of the prayers and service of Christians, so I try not turn my back on unbelievers, but it has been clearly proven that having any kind of intimate relationship with an unbeliever can quickly and easily turn into something that is a hindrance to your walk with Christ. We are called to evangelize the lost, not be intimate with them. There is nothing wrong with building quality friendships with unbelievers – but the primary focus of such a relationship should be to win them to Christ by sharing the Gospel with them and demonstrating God’s saving power in our own lives.

      In the face of some of the unmitigated rudeness here I fully intend to exercise my right, scripturally based of course, to ignore them!

  • March 16, 2014 at 4:33 pm


    As a Christian you are obliged to love me. It is not a choice. Even if I offend you, you shall love me, because that is what Jesus told you to do.

    With respect, it was you that started this whole series of posts by challenging us to give you proof that there was not a world wide flood! This many of us did, only to be met with passive aggressive comments and snide over use of exclamation marks (!!!!!!!) which makes all of your comments appear sarcastic!!

    I called on you to respect both my own and others’ beliefs and join us in bringing the WTBTS and the GB to justice. Do you want to help?

    If my choices offend you then……forgive me. That’s what you are told to do by your Saviour. I happen to retain a lot of respect for Jesus. I am trying to reach out to you as a fellow human being and work with you to achieve a moral end.

    Ignoring the opinion of another person leads to suffering, not unity. Rowland is not going to believe what you believe and neither am I. You must understand that we have all had experience with your beliefs. Some of us have remained Christians, some have joined other faiths and some have become agnostic or atheistic. None of us can prove absolutely that we are right, so let’s get along, shall we?

    You set the challenge for evidence, Carol. Now that you have been given that evidence, and your rudeness has been called out, you suddenly accuse us of being childish, and insist we get on with the overthrow of the GB!

    I think that it is you that needs to modify your behaviour and realise that you are joining a diverse group that includes many people that will offend your Christian sensibilities. Jesus spent time with the sick, not the healthy. He associated with people that the religious leaders of the day thought were evil and immoral. Maybe you need to think about that as you raise the drawbridge tonight?

    Peace be with you


    PS thanks for the posts supporting my comments. I appreciate it.

    • March 16, 2014 at 4:44 pm

      Another fine post. Thanks!

    • March 17, 2014 at 1:52 am

      Well said, Excelsior !

  • March 16, 2014 at 5:09 pm

    Excellently expressed, Excelsior!

  • March 17, 2014 at 2:12 am

    Excelsior somehow my reply ended up above your comments!

  • March 17, 2014 at 2:27 am

    When I choose not being of this world I read of the “world” in the New Testament, which mean that I am reading the Greek word cosmos and most often refers to the inhabited earth and the people who live on the earth, which functions apart from God.

    Satan is the ruler of this “cosmos” (John 12:31; 16:11; 1 John 5:19). By the simple definition that the word world refers to a world system ruled by Satan, we can more readily appreciate Christ’s claims that believers are no longer of the world—we are no longer ruled by sin, nor are we bound by the principles of the world. In addition, we are being changed into the image of Christ, causing our interest in the things of the world to become less and less as we mature in Christ.

    Believers in Jesus Christ are simply in the world—physically present—but not of it, not part of its values (John 17:14-15). As believers, we should be set apart from the world. This is the meaning of being holy and living a holy, righteous life—to be set apart. We are not to engage in the sinful activities the world promotes, nor are we to retain the insipid, corrupt mind that the world creates. Rather, we are to conform ourselves, and our minds, to that of Jesus Christ (Romans 12:1-2). This is a daily activity and commitment.

    We must also understand that being in the world, but not of it, is necessary if we are to be a light to those who are in spiritual darkness. We are to live in such a way that those outside the faith see our good deeds and our manner and know that there is something “different” about us. Christians who make every effort to live, think and act like those who do not know Christ do Him a great disservice. Even the heathen knows that “by their fruits you shall know them,” and as Christians, we should exhibit the fruit of the Spirit within us.

    Being “in” the world also means we can enjoy the things of the world, such as the beautiful creation God has given us, but we are not to immerse ourselves in what the world values, nor are we to chase after worldly pleasures. Pleasure is no longer our calling in life, as it once was, but rather the worship of God!

    • March 17, 2014 at 2:34 am

      Despite the length of your comment, Carol, you have failed, utterly, to explain your Christian faith. We still have no clue what it is. Having rejected the Gov. Bod. but continuing as a JW, we have no clue how much of their Biblical spin remains in your head.

      Do you still believe in an imminent Armageddon? A Paradise earth for JWs and thinkalikes (though not the Gov. Bod?)

      What, Carol, is your Christianity about? There are loads of Christians in the world, yet the differences between them are often enormous. We know almost nothing about your Christianity and have given up expecting an explanation.

      There has been a mass of disgusting ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’ stuff, but nothing of substance or meaning.

  • March 17, 2014 at 2:37 am

    Rowland…totally ignored!

  • March 17, 2014 at 2:58 am

    The irrationality is being unpacked. It always happens.
    Last week we were informed that – “Consequently there will be no acceptable excuse on The Judgement Day!”

    This week we are told (not discussed or engaged with) –
    “Although these close relationships are not recommended, it does not mean we turn our noses up and ignore unbelievers, either”.
    Errr –
    Then there is a bizarre statement – Rowland…totally ignored!
    Help me out folks is that a contradiction?

    How is any of what Carol is saying demolishing the GB? Is it not just an attempt to massage an ego that is not being fed within the chosen cult?
    I have noticed this often happens as people wake up. They try to identify themselves with a message. Some do it humbly, thoughtfully and constructively. Others are not ready to unpack themselves as they unpack their belief systems. Oh well.

  • March 17, 2014 at 3:45 am


    You have not ignored Rowland. You have answered his post by saying you are ignoring him!

    Can you show me a scripture where Jesus ignored someone who had a different belief to him?

    I am amazed at the disconnect between your judgemental, superiority and Jesus’ mercy and humility. You choose every scripture that confirms your attitude, and ignore the example of Christ.

    Have you tried finding a group that wants to depose the GB that are still Christians? The sister site to this one, JW Struggle, may be better served to help you. It is run by some truly exemplary Christians.

    I have read many comments from you now, and I see no difference between you and the GB. I do not understand what you have against them? Do you want to usurp their position, and run the JWs yourself? Who would you have as their replacements?

    If the only reason you associate with us on this site is to convert us to your brand of Christianity, then – no thank you. I do not agree with your interpretation of the Gospel. I do not believe that you have the right understanding. You lack mercy and you have a surfeit of judgement.

    We stand at a crossroads. Will you join us in our cause and keep your judgements to yourself, or do you want us to all convert to Carolism first? Carolism is the new brand of true Christianity that believes everything the WTBTS does, but doesn’t have the GB in charge!

    So let’s get down to some moral standards, shall we?

    What is your position on the covering up of child abuse, and the insistence of the two witness rule?

    What is your view on shunning? (There is a big clue for us in the fact that you are shunning Rowland)

    Would you shun me? I am an atheist. I smoke. I have relations outside of wedlock. I have committed and will continue to commit sins that are condemned by your moral code. However, I also do many good things, as recommended in the bible, as well. In short, Carol, I am an ordinary human being.

    Your life is binary. Good and evil, saved and damned, holy and unholy etc etc. Haven’t you realised that no one is completely good or completely evil yet?

    Reading your posts is just like reading something approved by the GB! I see no difference between your extreme stance and that of the GB.

    I am sure that many others would like your replies to my specific questions about your moral stand on child abuse and shunning.

    I started contributing to these posts because I found out about the disgusting practices of child abuse and domestic abuse cover ups within the WTBTS.

    It’s time to find out where you stand. If you have no problem with the covering up of child abuse and domestic violence then we have reached an impasse. I cannot associate with anyone who thinks that this is what Christ would want us to do.

    Some answers, please!

    Peace be with you


  • March 17, 2014 at 3:49 am

    Rubbish, absolute rubbish!

    How many times have I stated here to stop this childish petty bickering and get on with Ceders’ work?

    But no happy you seem to bicker rather than call a halt to futility. None here have even substantiated their statements over my all edged comments as they have been requested to do!

    How do you expect to challenge the GB if you can’t have unity here.

    Remember my reason for being here is to challenge the supreme autocratic rule of the GB over its cover up of peadophilia, and other issues, not to discuss me for I am of no importance!

    I am beginning to wonder why so many here simply do not just get on with the job!

  • March 17, 2014 at 3:55 am

    Excelsior obviously you see what you want to see and remain blind to all else!

    Again how many times do I have to state that I am of no importance.

    You all seem to be happy in running around in circles.

    If you read what I have previously posted you would see that most of your questions have already been answered!

    Sometimes more than once!

  • March 17, 2014 at 4:07 am

    Obviously you see what you want to see and remain blind to all else!

    Thats so funny!

  • March 17, 2014 at 4:10 am

    And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name’s sake. Acts 9:16

  • March 17, 2014 at 4:13 am

    Sure I am blind to else other that what the bible teaches us, in fact I don’t want to know about anything else, (been there and don’t most of it), see my post above for Scriptural references!

    • March 17, 2014 at 6:33 am

      My comments to you, Carol, have always been ignored, just as have the questions and comments of everybody else.

      If the Christian and Bible message were so clear there would not be thousands of different sects and belief and moral systems based on it.

      You have failed, utterly, to explain where you stand. OK, you do not like the Gov. Bod. and their shielding of paedophiles, but there your explanation stops.

      All we have is the sort of ostentatious piety condemned by Jesus. I cannot speak for Cedars, of course, but he has declared himself agnostic. We do not know, Carol, how much JWdom remains in your consciousness. Do you believe that all of humanity save Carol style Jw doorknockers/Kingdom Hall attenders are due an imminent Armageddon execution?

      This is the central and ruling obsession of the JWs. Do you share this? If you do, you must perforce, not only look forward to the day that Jehovah executes me, but also to that same Armageddon execution day, when Jehovah will dispatch all non JW contributors to this site, including Cedars himself.

      Ignore my question, by all means; I am used to it. You have answered nothing so far. But, perhaps, for the benefit of Cedars and the aims of his site, which you claim to support, you could explain to him and others with whom you claim to be in accord, whether you believe, JW style, in an imminent Armageddon which will execute all of us who are not your flavour of JW.

  • March 17, 2014 at 4:36 am


    I am aware of the verses containing judgment from the bible.

    What you have completely failed to address, though, is why they need to be believed.

    You ignore the really hard words, the ones that can be substantiated, those OUTSIDE the bible.

  • March 17, 2014 at 6:11 am

    Running around in circles? – this article is called – What can we all do to help? I generally post something to the media each day, so that people can make up their own minds about JW teachings. This morning I posted something on the Guardian website about JW homophobic views – based upon so called christian doctrine. Hardly running around in circles.

    The comment says:

    This type of homophobic thinking is not just to be found around the fringes of crazy cults. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not allow what they term “practising” Gays to be members. It seems to stem from personal denial turned into doctrinal beliefs.
    If you look at their literature they believe that once Armageddon happens and if a gay person survives they will be cured. I have just looked up homosexuality on their website and they liken homosexuality to gambling. You can choose not to play. Well I never!
    I then put a link into the search info on

    These challenges to cult thinking are everywhere and are increasing. The only thing the defenders can come back with is words from an old book written for a different society, so that elites could maintain control. Fortunately the book no longer has credibility or the same level of control that it once had. So, would it be interesting to know what others have done to help today? Just a thought. I am asking this in an genuine way as I know many people are challenging the GB and Jeni’s request has been taken up. Thanks Jeni! I hope we have come full circle.

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