It’s only through happenstance that I came to be an admin here at JWsurvey, but it was an opportunity I was happy to accept, because I love helping the cause.
One of my duties is sorting any contact emails that arrive. I often see messages of support and thanks for the information provided here.
A recurring theme in these messages is a desire to help. Speaking from personal experience, I can completely relate. Curtailing Watchtower’s influence is a cause I fully support.
Like so many of you reading this, my time as a Witness is marked with painful memories of unnecessary grief caused by Watchtower’s policies. When it all got to be too much, I had to make the difficult decision to leave behind those I had grown up with, including my immediate family.
The past twelve years have been a time of rebuilding and discovering what life really is all about. I’m never sorry that I decided to leave, but I still resent what I had to go through to get to where I am today.
My parents and sister have no contact with me. And, even though I live three hours from my hometown, news of my involvement with the ex-JW movement appears to have spread. I’ve recently started experiencing shunning when out and about in my current location. This new development has made me wonder what more I can do to help stop this from happening to others.
I don’t consider myself to be a leader in the cause. I’m not the type to uncover secrets and expose hidden policies. Truth be told, there are already so many who do this, and in my opinion they do it well. Cedars and others like him are doing a great job of putting Watchtower’s flaws out there for the public to see.
New YouTube videos are being added every day. Facebook and Twitter are buzzing with stories about things Watchtower wants to keep quiet. The information is there, and that’s where WE come in.
All of us have a unique opportunity to make all this effort pay off. Others have done the hard part, now it’s our turn to spread the information. We can all draw attention to the stories and blogs by sharing them with others. By word of mouth and social media, we can each play a part in getting the message out to a wider audience.
It may require an act of courage, or stepping out of our comfort zone. But unless more of us take this leap, the efforts of those doing the research and writing cannot reach their full potential. We can all be the backing chorus to the work being done. By lending our voices, we make the message stronger.
The more issues such as shunning and mishandling of child sex abuse are put in the public eye, the more momentum builds. Every opportunity we take to share is an opportunity to help someone avoid the pain we’ve experienced inside the Watchtower.
With increasing numbers of active Witnesses using the internet, we have a chance to show them the reality of their “truth.” As opinions start to change, everything we do puts just a little more pressure on Watchtower to make reforms and end their oppressive and often life-threatening practices.
As your fellow chorus member, I’m asking you all to consider supporting those who are leading the charge in the fight against Watchtower by sharing their message at every opportunity. The more we speak up, the more the world will notice, and lives could even be saved.
Further reading…
- Jeni’s AAWA article “Ex-JWs: Stop Respecting the Watchtower’s Wishes“
- JWsurvey “Get Involved” page
Related video…
Don’t be so hard on Carol folks, she has left the organisation like most of us. It can take some time to get rid of all the false hopes that the Society has put in our heads, but having studied the Bible for 30 years I still have faith in the promises that the Creator holds out to us for the future. I can’t see any wrong in wanting to live forever on a cleansed earth free from all heartache and pain – after all that is why the majority of us joined the ‘Watchtower’ in the first place wasn’t it? The fact that they have misled us with false dates and deception and doctrines of men does not change what the Bible says. Without their influence, the scriptures make a lot more sense to me. Without the confusion of GB teaching all things are being clarified, the scales are falling from my eyes, the target remains!
No BP I am still very much active in the organisation and will remain so.
My objective is to help bring fresh enlightenment into the administration and to bring down the GB. These things can only be achieved from the inside with the help of those like Ceders and many other dedicate good people on the fringes so to put it!
Many of the rank and file are good genuine people who have been misled for generations and are only seeking what the BIBLE promises them.
Jeni, I jumped in a separate subject on the thread but I would like to say that your article is great and I agree that it would only make sense warning others whenever we can.
I really liked your other article on AAWA site too (and I recommend everyone checking this out). I hope you’ll make more of similar contributions.
Thanks JB!
BP,
Tales have always shaped minds of humans, unfortunately some of the tales are so stupid they make people even more stupid than the tales themselves.
Don’t you think there can be somewhere tales better than this one?
(Genesis 6:5-8) . . .Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 Jehovah regretted that he had made men on the earth, and his heart was saddened. 7 So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, man together with domestic animals, creeping animals, and flying creatures of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.
This god must be crazy! Regretting to create man and just regret to regret. There is a need of judicial committee to check whether his/her regrets are genuine!! I am afraid in a democratic world not a theocratic one, Jehovah would be disfellowshipped over Genesis 6 case!
BP and Carol,
The WT, like most other religions, is built on the foundation of the bible. This is a book that clearly can be made to support a variety of teachings, many of which are contradictory.
If the bible is the foundation of these, it is then either a weak foundation or no foundation at all.
You’ve taken the first step and researched the religion to which you belonged. Now take the next step and research the book that forms the basis for their beliefs.
Carol, JB and others,
I would like to ask one question:
Why do you assume that this world is so wanting? Look at nature, it has many strategies to survive, from parasitism to cooperation and everything in between.
We have the ability to alter our environment to an unprecedented degree. We have the intelligence to choose how we will interact with the environment.
Why do we grieve? It isn’t because we were supposed to live forever! It’s because we are aware of the loss. Animals grieve too, to a certain degree. Should they live forever too?
Sorry folks, but this is where my atheism comes out. You are all assuming way, way too much! There never was a paradise. The myth of the garden of Eden is a…..myth!
We were never perfect. Can we become perfect? Who knows?
This God that you all assume is so benign slaughtered untold people, animals and other life in the Deluge. What had the children done wrong? What had all those animals done wrong? (It never happened, but to you people it was a justified act)
If you want a better world, then get out there and make some changes. That’s what Jesus did. You are supposed to be his followers, aren’t you?
Change happens one person, and one interaction at a time.
I wish you all well in your mission.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Excelsior, this is definitely a very interesting debate.
I agree that the nature is just amazing, whether we consider it as God’s creation or not. I believe that the right behaviour and justice, empathy, etc are actually gifts to us – of Nature or of God the way we may want to accept … As there are very interesting studies, it seems like we are born hard wired with these attitudes. The sense of justice and empathy is part of us, from the day of our birth. This alone is simply mind blowing – because it’s not an invention of humanity.
We live in an amazing world, an amazing nature indeed. All our basic needs are provided by the nature. They say, money doesn’t grow on trees, but actually, our food does ! It’s just produced by the nature, anything we ever need is there for nothing else than our care and work ! And there has always been more than enough for all of us to sustain.
The only negative point is, despite all elements are in favor of what we’d like to achieve – we’re here. But theoretically, we should be coming from that ideal world because the sense of justice and love is born over and over and over again with each new human being born. The amazingly rich resources of the nature have always been there, but yet, we’re still looking for the ideal world. I have some feeling that we initially in such a context … a superb environment and people born with every right behaviour hard wired, in their “factory settings” …
I’m with you on making good changes around us. For anyone still believing, I tend to think that it’s a much better way to worship than going to a meeting. And this is without an expectation of a “reward”, as in such cases, the reward of great feelings is immediate.
You must all believe what ever you wish to. I choose the Bible.
I am am here to help bring about the much needed change in the JW organisation as quickly as is possible. I believe that the GB are satanic and cause unwarranted suffering, humility and even death. Others may disagree but I would respect your right to do so and not criticize your motives!
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu, all you have to do is to read the BIBLE! Go to Job, read, and then think who are we to question GOD, as the Almighty Lord gives and he has the right to take away. You can not apply man’s law to Jehovah.
I cant for the life of me see why people would have sympathy for me!
I take all direction from the Holy. Scripture, obviously many here do not. My cutting off from the stupidity of this evil godless society is indeed an instruction direct from God.
Read today’s Day Text and you will clearly see……
Tuesday, March 11
Keep on reproving them with severity, that they may be healthy in the faith.—Titus 1:13.
For some who committed serious sins, their conduct has required that they be disfellowshipped. For “those who have been trained by it,” the discipline has helped them to become spiritually restored. (Heb. 12:11) What if we have a relative or a close friend who is disfellowshipped? Now our loyalty is on the line, not to that person, but to God. Jehovah is watching us to see whether we will abide by his command not to have contact with anyone who is disfellowshipped. (1 Cor. 5:11-13) We live in a treacherous, disloyal world. Yet, all around us in the Christian congregation, we can find loyal examples to imitate. Their life course speaks for them, as if to say: “You are witnesses, God is also, how loyal and righteous and unblamable we proved to be to you believers.” (1 Thess. 2:10) May we all remain ever steadfast in our loyalty to God and to one another. w12 4/15 2:16, 18
Its all so clear and easy to follow God’s will! Yet many make it difficult!
The mass of mutually incompatible and often mutually hostile Christian sects, Carol is a tribute to the Bible’s utter ambiguity.
Millions of believing Christians have sincerely studied the Bible in detail, Carol White, but only a tiny minority seem to have reached your conclusions.
You appear to have a JW disdain for your fellow humans and imagine you are not only superior to us, but you even kid yourself that you are not part of the world.
There have been other ascetics with their self contained communities, like the Amish and the Hutterites. Desert Fathers and celibate monks and nuns have also distanced themselves from society’s mainstream.
I respect your wish to expose the Watchtower GB for their terrible record and practices, but your arrogance and delusions of separation from the world are both tragic and a little repulsive.
I agree there are some decent teachings in bits of the Bible; but much of it is also primitive and barbaric. This is not surprising considering its provenance. To imagine, despite, overwhelming evidence, that the Bible is anything more than a collection of man made fallible writings from the ancient world, however, is as pitiful as it is potentially dangerous.
Oh dear, it would be better, and more decent and civilised for you to have simply stated that either one believes the Bible is the inspired word of God, or it is not!
Rather than ranting on about myths etc!
I take my direction from the Bible and that alone……The Word of instruction from God.
The Bible tell us all that we are but aliens in this sad wicked world and that we must avoid an association with the apostasies, this I wiling do!
If you feel that name calling and insulting my beliefs helps you position, I will not judge you so please be my guest and carry on. It’s only indicative of why I choose to be what I am.
Carol,
Anybody can write something and claim it is the inspired word of God and mankind’s unique and ultimate guide for salvation. If I wrote that at the foot of my comment, would anybody believe me?
Why do you believe, without question, what the Bible says about itself?
I am sorry that you feel insulted. Referring, however, to the world, of which I know I am a part, as something foul and doomed, and which is heading for a deserved destruction, is itself, deeply insulting.
I was subjected, as a child, to such a terrible and cruel belief. I was a Jehovah’s Witness. I felt constantly uneasy at the idea that all but those few of us who attended the Kingdom Hall and went door knocking with a bag of mags
were heading for an imminent annihilation at the Battle of Armageddon.
It took me many years of study to realise that the strange and awful notions drilled into my head by the Watchtower Society, were but part of the technique of cult mind control as practised, and all but perfected, by a small elite of men in New York.
You claim, Carol, that you are committed to exposing the evils of the Watchtower Governing Body. Your posts, however, demonstrate that your mind is not remotely purged of the poison injected into your head by that same Governing Body.
Fine post Excelsior, but you did forget to prove your myth theory and disprove the Holy Bible!
Love and peace! Carol.
I agree with your post 1000%.
This is why its hard for me to comprehend the daily massive destruction of our life giving environment!
Thank you very much Carol, for your posts too.
I put this post separate by mistake it was meant to answer you JB.
I agree with your post 1000%.
This is why its hard for me to comprehend the daily massive destruction of our life giving environment!
Hi Carol
I,m one of Jehovah’s Witnesses though I don’t support the WTS.In fact the more I study the more I see the GB’s fallacies. I’m not saying they are terrible people, just misguided. Their elevated view of their doctrines are blinding them to the loving truths of Gods word.
I have read the with interest that you are staying with the organization to help them.While I agree that is noble, how do you propose to do that? I’m sure the moment you try to explain any of the errors of the organization,you will be put on notice to change your ways as opposed to changing theirs.
Have peace and enjoy life
Duds
Carol White,
I have taken it . . .Therefore this is what Jehovah says: “Your wife will become a prostitute in the city, and your sons and your daughters will fall by the sword. . . . (Amos 7:17)!!
Try to imagine a MAN who was told that and look up in the Watchtower library how the WTS explains it!!
Hi Hakizimana Jean de Dieu
The only ref I found in the WT Lib. was this.
3. A priest of the calf worship at Bethel who complained to Jeroboam II that the prophet Amos was a seditionist. He personally tried to frighten Amos into going back to Judah. The prophet, however, stood his ground, telling Amaziah that his wife would become a prostitute, his children would fall by the sword, and Amaziah himself would die on unclean ground.—Am 7:10-17.
Is there another I’m missing?
Peace Duds
Carol,
You are not the first that thinks the Bible has the answers. It does not seem to be making you happy if you have to play all these games. I have been out over 30 years and my life has been good, especially when I released the indoctrination and educated myself. (Education is not allowed by JW’s).
Since being out, I have noticed that a few people replace one set of beliefs with another set. Some become Witnesses for Jesus after leaving the JW’s, some become activists for the environment. If its improving the world then it sounds good to me. I am yet to see how JW’s do anything to improve the world. The shun families, deny people medical treatment and change the doctrine so often.its laughable.
For me, having a happy life, without indoctrination was the path.
Please record your JC. I agree with Duds, you will be kicked out without fanfare, either that or you will not be doing a very effective job.
I think its sad that you lock your door in fear each night. I know that without the drama, guilt and fear that reading the bible creates – (a book written by numerous writers, changed numerous times – to control a middle eastern society in turmoil) – there can be a much healthier life. Just my experience. So glad I did not waste another day jumping through hoops.
Carol White, is this what you are saying? “Read today’s Day Text and you will clearly see……” that “if we have a relative or a close friend who is disfellowshipped… we will abide by his command not to have contact with anyone who is disfellowshipped.”
Upon this, you need to consult a psychiatrist and I offer to pay the bill. Do you know why Israelites preferred to pray “PHALLIC SYMBOLS” of Jehovah.
Hints:
1) Judah has made a covenant with her false gods, and she loves her illicit relationship with them. She especially loves the immoral sexual practices—likely including the use of phallic symbols—that characterize worship of these gods! (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=ip-2+chap.+18+pp.+265-266+par.+7)!
2) *** ip-2 chap. 18 p. 266 Jehovah Revives the Spirit of the Lowly Ones ***
Sacred poles may have represented the female principle, and sacred pillars may have been phallic symbols. Both were used by the unfaithful inhabitants of Judah.—2 Kings 18:4; 23:14.
I wish you worshiped “PHALLIC SYMBOLS”, they would never ask you to shun your relatives as does JEHOVAH!!!!
Carol,
I know that you chose the bible, that was already clear.
The issue is that it is faith is misplaced. Start by actually researching about the flood. There is no way that the flood described in the bible happened. There are civilizations that are older than when it was supposed to have happened. Also, there are trees that are dead, laying where they died, that are older than the flood, with a continuous record of life through that period.
The flood is a myth. Now, find out what else is false.
Thank you for you kind reply. However, may I suggest, that etiquette prevails, therefore having made my position clear, it would be up to you, with respect, to categorically disprove the happening of the great flood!
Yes Duds you are right, but on the inside, as an accepted member of the congregation, I learn much that would be impossible from the outside.
Also I have come to, clandestinely, know many others who share similar sentiments and their strength of opposition is growing against the doctrines of the GB.
I believe that the winds of change are blowing softly now but nevertheless blowing
Hi Carol
Thanks for answering, the winds of change are in the air. Can you imagine the changes that will have to take place, when 1914 1919 607BCE are all proven to be wrong? If fact the society already knows 607 is wrong. (Since 1978).
Every book, magazine,and doctrine they have published will have to be rewritten. And will they have the humility to confess that others outside their organization and not new light were responsible in bringing it to their attention. I think a big wind is ready to blow and split the organization.
And who is going to get the benefit of the sell off of the old bethels? They have their coffers full. Maybe, they could give each publisher a million and still have many millions left for them selves. By hanging in there you might end up with some of that spoil. Spiritual health is very limited where you are, so be careful and don’t be fooled, by their falseness, they want to take away your free will to think.
Have peace and love Duds
Yes Duds I attend, just as I have done for so many years, and will be at the next meeting fully prepared and ready to answer up!
You see I take my lead direct from God as it is He and He alone that has reached out to me and I have reached back with my whole life…..knowing full well that, “He sees right into the hearts of all.”
I am ever shocked to discover the depths of Satan’s influence and what a clever cunning thing that he is. I take comfort in the final conflict and I realise how desperate Satan is becoming, so we must look to things getting worse before getting better.
Yet it was only just a few years back that I simply acknowledged the existence of Satan and that was that. However, it was while carrying out in-depth studies of the origin and development of the Watchtower organisation that I began to realise it had a much darker side and an affinity to “other forces.”
These other forces must be subtly confronted, this I do rather well in my way simply with well chosen, non confrontational, comments and innocently put Biblical based questions that none could deny were not valid.
Others in the congregation listen, and I am left to ponder if my little seeds of doubt over the actions, and self proclaimed position of the GB, may have sprouted a few roots!
Hi Carol
My comment concerning giving each publisher a million is probably not possible. I really don’t know how much has been accumulated over the last 50 years. I don’t think their overall cost for running bethel per year is any where near what has been donated. Most of work is volunteered and all books and magazine paid for by members. I was just thinking that it should be equally distributed. Taking the pressure off the less unfortunate who are struggling. Cheers Duds
Carol,
I did show why it is impossible.
Do your own research instead of clinging to old myths.
Carol,
I shall provide two pieces of evidence, though more exist, for the impossibility of a worldwide flood in 2370 BCE.*
1. A worldwide flood would have left sediment, containing jumbled up stuff all over the surface of the earth. No such layer of detritus exists.
2. If only 2 of each kind were saved (7 of the clean animals) and all subsequent animals are descendants of those originals, there would be clear evidence of this in their DNA. No such evidence exists.
There is an excellent article on JW Facts that goes into this issue in more detail.
Suffice to say, there is no evidence for this flood. None at all. Indeed, all the evidence points to it not having occurred.
There may well have been a catastrophic flood, but it didn’t encompass the entire globe.
As for disproving the bible…how can one disprove a philosophy except by looking at “its fruits”?
It is time, it is high time, to respect beliefs but not flatter them by acknowledging events that simply could not have happened.
See the Deluge as a morality tale, a myth telling the tale of the move from hunter gatherers to farmers. It was a transformative moment. It was remembered.
“But Jesus spoke of the flood as an actual event, and he existed in Heaven when it happened!” I hear you cry!
Maybe Jesus was using a familiar tale to talk about how people were in his day? What did he highlight? They were eating, they were drinking until the flood came and swept them all away. It was the apathy of the people that he was addressing.
Maybe, he was a Jewish man who genuinely believed it happened because he had no reason to doubt it?
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Sorry, * refers to page 609 of the Insight book
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Carol, sorry, I didn’t realise that you were still attending. After the initial shock of discovering the lies and deceit from the GB it just made my blood boil to hear the continued rhetoric. I preferred to stay away from the mind controlling tactics. Your desire to try and influence ones from the inside is admirable. I am not disfellowshipped and have tried to talk to ordinary brothers and sisters about the things I have found out. Unfortunately, the majority do not listen and prefer to continue to have their ears tickled with falsehood. They feel sorry for me, often referring to the old “What will you do when the sky turns black?” scenario. The denunciations on those in a ‘dedicated relationship with Jehovah’ spoken of in the books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel will surely come upon the GB in due course. I do believe that the God of the universe will destroy them for bringing the utmost reproach on his holy name. Time will tell.
My lead is taken from the Holy Scriptures which are approved by God. But thank you for your answer!
The Bible, as you know, has been superseded by the Holy Koran as dictated directly, via, the Angel Gabriel, from Allah to Mahomet.
Bearing in mind, Carol, your attitude to Noah’s flood, as c. 1 billion fellow humans are convinced of the divine authrship of the Holy Koran the onus is on you to present evidence to refute that assertion.
Until evidence is ammassed, presented, and judged to be convincing, it behoves us all to accept the Divine and utterly infallible final message direct from God to humanity.
Who is Allah, I dimly recall the name “Muhammad” from somewhere?
Hi Carol,
Glad you are reading JWfacts. Did you read this? See below.
You are not the first person and will not be the last that instead of dealing with emotional issues – projects the problem onto Satan – The fearful statements you are making and the desire to control conversations and dictate the topics is sadly classic. Can only say there is a lot of help out there – Deprogramming and good mental health will enable you to have a happier life. Getting into a debate about doctrine will not deal with the issue.
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/mental-issues.php
Montague and Other Researchers
Havor Montague (another name Jerry Bergman publishes under) monitored the admissions to state and private mental hospitals and local mental health clinics in Ohio from 1972 to 1976. From this study of 102 cases, he estimated, “The mental illness rate of JWs is approximately 10 to 16 times higher than the rate for the general, nonWitness population… From his intensive interviews with Witness patients and others, Montague concluded that persons who had emotional problems were attracted to the Witnesses, but involvement also caused many of the emotional problems that they suffered. This is evident from the fact that many with problems reported they were far happier after they left.
Many reasons exist for the mental health problems among Witnesses, but research has found the following to be the most important.
Changes in Policy
The Watchtower is in a perpetual state of doctrinal change, often flip-flopping as many as three or four times on a single issue.
The Watchtower Theocracy
Another major cause for disillusionment among Witnesses is that they are taught that their organisation is a theocracy, specifically run by God. Those inside the Watchtower organization are the only true servants of God, and all of those outside are evil persons soon to be destroyed at Armageddon. Yet many are aware of the numerous cases of Witnesses who have done horrible things.
Prophecy Failure
Many Witnesses harbor a deep-seated fear – fueled by a long history of doctrinal reversals and prophetic failure – that the Watchtower is a false religious organization. Since this idea has earth-shaking implications for followers of that organization, they refuse to explore their fears, preferring to ration-alize or suppress rather than acknowledge and deal with them. The key to salvation lies not in being saved in the Christian sense or even being good, but being in the Watchtower organization – although they also teach that even this does not guarantee salvation.
MacDonald and Luckett
MacDonald and Luckett, Religious Affiliation and Psychiatric Diagnoses, Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 1983, Vol. 22, No. 1, pp. 15-37 produced a study that looked at the relationship between religious groups and psychiatric diagnoses. This studied the type of diagnoses of psychiatric patients. Seven groups were included – No Religious Preference, Non-Mainline Protestant, Mainline Protestant, Catholic, Other Protestant, Unknown and Sects. Jehovah’s Witnesses were included within sects along with other groups such as Christian Science, Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists. Sects had a higher level of psychoses, 21% compared to the sample average of 10%.
Jeni, tell us more about your relationship and your cybersex with this immoral man from Croatia.
Hi Amos
I agree with Excelsior, making unnecessary derogatory remarks across a broad spectrum as this is uncalled for. If you have some issue with them should you not try and resolve it with them privately?
Peace be with you
Duds
Well that’s the thing Amos,
Who cares ? Do you have Judicial Committee nostalgy or what ?
Amos,
What a horrible assertion. I trust you have evidence to impugn the morality of Jeni and Cedars?
Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone!
Amos, why don’t you tell us how morally superior you are? Can you deny that you have sinned, and fallen far short of your morality countless times?
What are you doing to aid abused children in the WTBTS?
Your cynical attempt to denigrate Jeni and Cedars tells me all I need to know about your motives and world view.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Carol,
So multitudinous evidence is presented to you, and your hackneyed response is:
“It says in the bible that it is inspired of God, and the bible says there was a worldwide flood, so I will believe a book over scientific evidence”
You have the right to believe what you like. But there is no evidence outside a book that this event ever took place.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Carol,
“My lead is taken from the Holy Scriptures which are approved by God. But thank you for your answer!”
Sorry to say, but you still suffer from the mental defect instilled upon you by the WT. I showed you why the conclusion you have reached is in error by highlighting a couple issues with the flood. But rather than do any actual knowledge gathering, you simply state your original position again without any supporting evidence.
When you take off the devotional glasses, and study the bible through a critical lens, you will see that there are many, many reasons that show it is most certainly NOT approved by god, as you state.
Do yourself a favour, research.
The supporting evidence is to be found in the Bible. Also the fact the Jesus mentions the flood.
Everyone knows that Jesus does not lie……..didn’t you know that?
Hi Carol
I really don’t think anyone on this site is denying the flood or Jesus words.There are some things hard to understand. Your simple faith that it happen, is fine, However, many thinking people can see things that don’t seem to add up. For example why did all the marsupial animals end up in Australia if they all trekked from Ararat? Koalas survive on gum leaves available in Australia how did they manage to survive the long trek?
I agree, Jehovah took a hand in bringing the animals to Noah before the flood and possible could have helped them after the flood. To pass off peoples thoughts without reasonable explanation does nothing to build faith in God’s word.
Carl Olof Jonsson has an interesting topic on his site about the flood.Its worth a read.
May you have peace
Duds
Duds; please do not presume to speak for the rest of us. Of course the Bible is not a reliable history book. Whatever is reported as Jesus’ words in the Gospels, good, bad and questionable, we can have no idea of their authenticity, written as they were by non eye witnesses well over a generation after the events they purport to describe.
That the Bible bigs itself up as something divine means zilch. Carol already, due to her Kingdom Hall indoctrination, imagines herself superior to her fellow humans and holds herself aloof. The last thing she needs is further fuel to inflate her self righteous ego.
Hi Rowland Nelken
I knew after I had posted that what I had written would not appeal to all. Your right, I should not have presumed to speak on behalf of others. Sorry. I realize many don’t share the same views, and I don’t intend to offend.
You make the assertion the Bible is unreliable, Many would disagree.
You make the assertion we have no idea of their authenticity, many would disagree.
To you, the Bible’s claim to being divine, means zilch, so what! that’s your view, many disagree.
You make the claim, that Carol due to her being indoctrinated has a superior attitude to others, while on the other hand, because of your conclusions above, drawn from what ever reasoning, are you not feeling a little bit superior to Carol?
Lastly, you make the claim I’m fueling her self righteous ego?? It seems,like your really out to get her. You misunderstood my intentions, I was merely trying to help Carol understand that she needed to add some substance to her answers rather then just saying the Bible say so.
Have peace
Duds
I am not out to get anybody, Duds. Extraordinary claims, however, need extraordinary evidence. We are all used to bits of writing, like this reply here, made by fallible humans, like me, imperfect members of the human race and the world.
Carol, however, comes on here and asserts that she is no part of this world, for all that, presumably, she is sustained by the food growing labours of fellow humans, and occupies, like the rest of us, a small space on planet earth.
She then goes on to declare, offering no evidence whatever, that the Bible, with all its barbarities and inconsistencies, is no mere man made book, but the infallible product of an all powerful God and that she, Carol, by following it, is superior to the rest of us.
I find that deeply offensive. Maybe I was presumptuous in assuming that her absurd attitude to the Bible is the product of Kingdom Hall indoctrination. Maybe her ‘fundiness’ arrived in her consciousness via some other fundie sect of Christendom.
Maybe Carol will, in time, try and explain how she has arrived at that extraordinary conclusion about the Bible. All we have had thus far, though, is bald assertion.
Is the removing of my posting a confession?
Amos,
Do you know what immoral means? It is defined as wrongful, wicked, evil, foul, unprincipled, unscrupulous, dishonorable, dishonest, unconscionable, iniquitous, disreputable, corrupt, depraved, vile, villainous, nefarious, base, miscreant
I guess you fit all of those definitions, with your unfounded, ridiculous accusations. As Cedars one said – Ladies and Gentleman I give you a Jehovah’s Witness. When they cannot win with debate, they just become nasty.
Seems to be much the other way here, people become so damed rude and insulting, not respecting others’ right to practice and enjoy whatever beliefs they hold.
A number here are rather petty and pitifully souls obvious lacking in some vital ingredient or other!
Now for the benefit of the misconceived, or those who are deaf because they not not want to hear. I am here for one thing and one thing alone, and that is to join with Ceders, and the others here, who wish to expose, and trust fully oust the Governing Body and to bring the much needed full accountability to those whom may replace them!
And no I have not been brainwashed, in fact, with other subjects, I lecture in criminal psychology and at a far superior level than any perceived brainwashing carried out by the JWs, of which, incidentally, there is no concrete evidence that such practices exist, simply old washerwoman gossip!
Please stay focused to what Ceders wishes to achieve!
Carol at some point recent years, I decided to read the Bible cover to cover. As you will probably confirm, some parts of the Bible, specially parts about Jesus leave a deep mark in us. While others, a little less :-) Those parts about Jesus, among some other parts, like Solomon’s and David’s, were my best moments of reading.
While I feel this way, I still totally agree with “Reader”, I think he’s got a very valid point. Doubting about the scientific accuracy of an ancient account doesn’t necessarily make it good for the bin, and there is no reason why Jesus wouldn’t make mention of it.
Studying the Bible as a document open for critics was a movement started by some scholars, I watched quite a few videos about it, which are registered classes at Yale regarding the Old Testament, etc. It turns out to be very interesting ! And, taking things under the scientific, critical look doesn’t have to lead to towards a conclusion that God doesn’t exist and the whole thing is an illusion. Nobody would blame you for believing in what you believe, as it’s a very intimate decision.
I do trust that the Evolution Theory holds truth (at least as far as we have understanding about the nature today) and I also think that the Flood account was recorded with the influence of that era’s culture, traditions and feelings, and it was quite certainly not a worldwide destruction.
All this don’t prevent me to maintain my attention and interest upon the Bible.
Carol, maybe the “new light” is something else than a group of folks playing around some verses like a piece of used chewing-gum and coming up “updated” interpretation of the very same words. Maybe the “new light” is the advances in science, archeology, and increased abilities for us to comprehend our world and our past and therefore maybe the Bible too.
If this is the new light, are we courageous enough to look through it ? It might seriously disturb our acquired certitudes but for the sake of the truth, would we be adventurous enough to wonder if …… ?
Can an Almighty God make a Donkey speak ? Most probably. Did He WANT this to happen, bypassing all natural laws in place ? Hmmmmm …….
Carol,
“The supporting evidence is to be found in the Bible. Also the fact the Jesus mentions the flood.
Everyone knows that Jesus does not lie……..didn’t you know that?”
after I pointed out your lack of evident and then boasting about your conclusion, you did the same thing again. You are brainwashed, despite your protestations.
I have read the bible. Found myths about creation, myths about floods, unfulfilled ‘prophecies,’ stories of genocide sanctioned by god, stories of god killing young people for calling his messenger bald, inaccuracies, and absolutely nothing to deny that the god portrayed there is anything more than the invention of men from the Bronze Age
So the theory here is that if you read the Bible and believe it then you are brain washed by the JWs.
I see that’s the best you can come up with. Well guys sorry to disappoint you but I was a chapel goer and believed in the Bible long before I became a JW.
The AIM here is to expose the GB not to have petty girlish squabbles over one’s theology or lack of it.
It is evident that there is room for maturity here, I suggest that those who feel that applies to them….practice it……and then get on with the job at hand.
There are plenty of nondenominational BBs around where you can screw each other’s head till dawn of the following week! Please stay on topic on this one!
Rowland, and others here, why all the petty bickering like children, is there not more important work to do?
I have no problem with your atheism, which obviously controls your empty lives.
Why then do you have a major problem with a person who believes in the Bible?
Being an atheist is one thing and you right, however openly attacking and ridiculing the Bible and those who hold it sacred is another manifestation of evil intent! Why not simple be content with your darkness and leave it at that! Unless of course someone else’s influence motivates you.
As a Christian I do not attack anyone’s beliefs or lack of them, why should you delight in attacking me for mine?
Rowland, thinking for those who practice the art, can be a very productive pastime. You accused me of being JW indoctrinated, that’s your view and I respect it, as you are, foolishly or not, entitled to have it, however, that said, please explain that if I am as indoctrinated as you claim, why do I work and campaign so hard in order to have the GB removed and a system of more openness and accountability brought into the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society?
You are not making sense, unless of course you have a hidden agenda!
Carol – I have no hidden agenda. I simply want you to understand that your imagining the world which sustains you is beneath your contempt is deeply offensive.
I am part of the world, and, it seems, though you are no longer in thrall to the JW Gov. Bod., you share with them, or at least with their pronouncements, the notion that you are no part of this wicked world and that those of us who do form a part of it are due for an imminent and deserved divinely delivered execution.
There is no reason at all why religious beliefs, or indeed any other beliefs, deserve respect per se. Do you respect the sincerely held and ‘divinely delivered’ beliefs of Al Qaedr suicide bombers? Do you respect the divinely guided and Biblically based beliefs of the Protestants and Catholics of European and American history who tortured and burned heretics and witches?
You, Carol, seem to feel it OK to insult those of us who acknowledge that we are an integral part of the world that you feel free to condemn. Yet you act absurdly hurt and offended when those of us you dismiss as, presumably, God’s worldly and expendable Armageddon fodder’ question your assumptions.
Do not imagine that your unsubstantiated assertions about the Bible deserve unqualified ‘respect’. You have answered no questions and given no reasons whatever, why anyone should think the Bible to be anything more than a man made collection of writings, and certainly no reason why your take on the Bible (whatever that is – you have not explained) is superior to that of the Methodists, the Orthodox, the Amish, the Jehovah’s Witnesses or any of the myriads of sects which have claimed to follow it since its compilation.
Please take time to consider why your comments provoke so much rage. You tell us we are your inferiors and that we, the worldly ones, deserve and imminent execution. That is horrible.
Rowland you are making things up as you go along to suit your own agenda……where did I ever state that you are inferiors and that the worldly ones, deserve and imminent execution.
Just show me where I said that!
Carol wrote the following: ‘Our home is literally our castle and once in the draw bridge is firmly up to the mad crazy outside world. We never answer the door bell to anyone, other than through a prearranged appointment, thereby always keeping Satan’s world firmly apart from ours.’
The obvious implication here, Carol, is that we, of ‘the world’ are Satanic and thus up for imminent destruction.
I put ‘of the world’ in inverted commas. because you too, Carol, behind your door made by imperfect worldly (Satanic?) men and women, snugly in your home, (of similar provenance) are alos ‘of the world’. You simply kid yourself that you are above us all and separate from us.
Carol wrote: ‘The world in general is most definitely inferior to my standards of decency and living. I therefore refuse to be a part of it.’
What is this, Carol, except a bald statement of your superiority to the rest of us?
It also demonstrates your tragic, and indeed JW style delusion, that you are no part of this world. Of course you are a part of it. Whether you picked u[ this crazy delusion at the Kingdom Hall or elsewhere in Christendom, or somewhere else entirely, it is, nevertheless, a repulsive trait that you share with the Watchtower bosses.
Carol wrote: ‘My partner and me are very happy, very very very happy, and simply aliens passing through this wicked evil world.’
So, here again, we ‘worldly’ people are wicked and evil. If you cherish the illusion of a New World, does this ‘New World’ (JW style or otherwise) require the divinely delivered execution of all of us ‘wicked, evil and worldly’ ones.
If I have misunderstood your otherworldliness and the nature of your ‘next world’, please explain.
Maybe, Carol, your ‘next world’ it does not involve the divine execution of all of us who do not share your take on the Bible. Your posts, thus far, however, definitely give us that impression.
Carol,
“I have no problem with your atheism, which obviously controls your empty lives.”
Judgement without any knowledge. You have no idea whatsoever about my life.
I don’t ridicule the bible. I point out issues that are obvious to those who cease to view it from a devotional standpoint. You can’t even acknowledge that view as reasonable and yet you have no knowledge of even it’s basic precepts.
You would rather JW’s would trade one form of slavery for another. I would rather advocate for clear thinking.
You obviously have a problem with those who take the Bible as the approved word of God.
The bible teaches freedom not slavery, I suggest you read it again, this time with your eyes and mind open.
What exactly are JW tactics, your enlightenment would be much appreciated.
Your views, the way you state them, the way you try to defend them without providing any actual support all point to a strong indoctrination in the wt way of thought.
Whether you attack the GB or not, your methods and ideas are rooted firmly in JW tactics.
Carol,
Why do you presume that your agenda is the same as Cedar’s?
From what you have said, you still attend meetings and want to shore up a dying entity.
From what I have read on here, I would say that you are not on the same page. Of course its your choice to want to challenge the WT and to believe in whatever you want. Fortunately, we all have that choice and what people are trying to do is have reasoned debate. When you are questioned about your choice, instead of bringing reasoned argument, you appear to flail about, get angry, abusive and accuse others of being divisive. Perhaps if you started to research, as many on here, including Cedars, have done, you may start to understand. Many have done the research and have on many occasions seen and heard what you think you are doing. Hence the questions, hence the attempt at drawing out your reasoning. Perhaps if you look at the questions that have been asked in a reasonable way and begin to research and give answers, rather than ” its in the bible” the discussion would be constructive.
I would say I am strongly indoctrinate by the word of God through the Holy Bible.
No man nor organisation is greater that the Almighty Lord and His Son Jesus.
The Governing Body of the JWs have set them selves up to be worshiped before God and that is the Devil’s work.
The Bible states that many will come in my name and be great deceives………….
What exactly are JW tactics, your enlightenment would be much appreciated.
Oh dear, where exactly am I getting angry, abusive and accuse others of being divisive.
I thought it was the other way around.
All I seek to do is to adhere to the Holy Bible, which indeed I have researched in-depth, doctrinally, historically and via archeology. This is why I believe the Word and defend it.
I also believe that the JWs are twisting the word go God for their own gains and that must stop!
You obviously have many deep rooted problems associated with a belief of the Bible, perhaps I can help you with that!
Hi Carol
I am one of Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses, however, I do not associate with the WTS nor have I been d/f. I have followed to a degree, your debate with others on this site. And its sad to see that your really not facing up to the issues presented by others demanding an answer.
I’m reminded of what Peter says at 1 Peter 3:15 “….always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you,doing so together with mild temper and deep respect.”
You are attempting to answer, but it is without substance. For Example, in one of your post you said “All I seek to do is to adhere to the Holy Bible,which indeed I have researched in depth, doctrinally, historically and via archaeology. This is why I believe the word and defend it.”
If you have done this research, and it reinforces your belief, than perhaps you need to show from those sources, the specific things that make you want to defend the Bible so passionately. It will make for a much better discussion than throwing around generalities. You might even find that others on this site will be a lot more receptive to your views as well.
May you have peace
Duds
I rest my case……. no attempt at discussion, no going away and doing independent research…..just more statements, no evidential debate – just more of it is in the bible……
This is my last word to or about this thread –
I now make my choice – to move on.
It takes great courage combined with determination to break free from any denominational organization, be it Watchtower or any other would-like mind controlling organization. Be sure there are more than one such churches.
Great problem with many Jehovah Witnesses is that they seem to be brainwashed and believing they are the only ones in Christianity who use the Name of God and who go out preaching. For them preaching or witnessing seems to be only possible by going from door to door. though we do have already many other ways to reach people and bring them the Gospel.
There are many lovers of Jehovah who are willing to take in and call ex-Jehovah Witnesses welcome.
Jeni, we do hope many ex-Jehovah Witnesses shall come to see that everywhere in the world there are many bible students, from the old original bible Students movement up to newer bible student movements. You asked to people from this site all to consider supporting those who are leading the charge in the fight against Watchtower by sharing their message at every opportunity. Many Biblestudents and Free Chrisitans do want to share the cause of the unchained Christian who wants to have Jeshua (Jesus Christ) as their cornerstone and Jehovah as their only One True God and UpperLord of the Church.
All those who love Jehovah more than any worldly organization should speak up. As brethren in Christ we do have to show others where our heart is and how, living in this world, we do not want to be part of this world.
By letting JW but also others know what happens in the many church organizations , the more the world will notice, and lives could and will even be saved.
All those who call themselves Christian, should give an open hand to everyone who is looking to get to know Christ and his Father. but the non-trinitarians, which there are more than JW and trinitarians think, should be there in the first place to welcome every believer who loves only to worship the One True God Jehovah.
So let us give the ex-JW a sign and let them know to go looking for like-minded people who are not JW, could have been once or could have been never (like we).
When all ex-Jehovah Witnesses honestly want to share the things what happened in their community, not out of revenge, but out of love and for protecting others, we should not mind sharing such information with our readers.
By sharing our experiences from our faith life, we can build each other up and preserve others from going astray or via a detour. Life can be made much more simple when we dare to share such experiences. So we should not be afraid to tell our back experiences but should also recognize the good things which we encountered. We also should know that what can be a good way to come to God may be another person shall better come to God by an other way.
Let us not forget it is Jehovah God Who is calling and not man.
One of the greatest problems with the JW is that they made “The Governing Body” something like the “infallible pope” of the Roman Catholic Church.
We always wonder how it comes that no JW ever dares to question certain studies or sayings made in bible study class or in service at the Kingdom Hall?
Duds I take all the Bible as my authority, therefore all my sources are found in the Bible…..and that is why I refer to my sources as the Bible. For the Bible is the inspired word of God.
The Governing Body of the JWs are manipulating the word of God and that is what I strenuously object to.
I am not here to discuss anything other that the conduct of the GB and how to bring about reform for the better!
You can believe whatever doctrine you want. I believe in God and His Word in the Bible……chapter and verse!
Hi Carol
I would like to give you a reason why I don’t associate with the WTS. They are not true to their word.
In the book “Let your Kingdom Come” page 189 final para. 1st sentence it says” “we are willing to be guided primarily by God’s Word rather than chronology that is based principally on secular evidence or that disagree with the scriptures”,and on page 187 para 4 the last sentence it says in part “Yes,the Bible’s internal harmony and the care exercised by its writers, even in matters of chronology, recommends it so strongly to the Christian that he places its authority above that of the ever-changing opinions of secular historians.”
Let me draw your attention to what they have stated in brief. That the internal harmony on matters of chronology can be relied on because of the care take by the writer.
Do they really believe that or do they just choose to believe when it suits them? I believe they do so only when it suits them.
Take Daniel 2:2 It says “ In the second year of his kingship, Nebuchadnezzar had a number of dreams…”
Simple scripture, that most people would take as meaning, what it says, in the 2nd year of his kingship. Would Daniel, the writer, have been careful in recording that fact. I’m sure you would agree. But not the WTS. What if I told you, they believe it to mean the 2nd year after Jerusalem’s destruction? Would you think I’m out of my mind? Well that’s what they believe! Take a look at the Insight book V 2 page. 481 Its says “probably dating from Jerusalem’s destruction” which would be his 20th regnal year.
Therefore, instead of sticking to their word, as stated earlier they now change it to fit their erroneous theology. Are they placing what Daniel careful wrote as accurate Bible chronology above their own ever-changing opinions?
Have peace Duds
Carol, but what if we’d consider this :
The account in I. Samuel 17 states about Goliath’s tallness being close to 3 meters. Quite a super-human size …
On the other hand, a parallel text found among the Dead Sea Scrolls (manuscript Q4sam) states something close to 2 meters. Quite a tough looking warrior, but a normal strong man …
I must admit, the one in the manuscript seems like more accurate to me, but somehow, the super-human version made it to the Bible … It’s not only that, there are many manuscripts that seem to be manipulated in later copies of the scrolls (now that we dispose of copies that old, it’s possible to compare with later copies).
I bought a copy of a Bible which includes, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, which several other translations don’t include.
All this is not to say that the Bible is not worth attention and as a guidance, but I think an absolute view of the Bible would antagonize our efforts to understand about it more !
Duds, more references:
*** w04 11/15 p. 14 par. 19 Speak God’s Word With Boldness ***
First, Amos asked the priest: “Are you saying: ‘You must not prophesy against Israel’?” Without hesitation, God’s courageous prophet then spoke words that Amaziah certainly did not want to hear. (Amos 7:16, 17
*** w98 9/1 p. 23 Bethel—A City of Good and Bad ***
Amos fearlessly told Amaziah of the calamities that would come upon the priest’s own household. (Amos 5:4-6; 7:10-17)
*** w94 9/15 p. 17 par. 4 Take as a Pattern the Prophets of God ***
And as regards you yourself, on unclean ground you will die; and as regards Israel, it will without fail go into exile from its own ground.”’” That prophecy came to pass. (Amos 7:16, 17) How shocked apostate Amaziah must have been!
Jehovah shocks apostate Amaziah by making his wife become a prostitute in the city!
(Hosea 1:2) . . .Jehovah said to Ho•se′a: “Go, marry a woman of prostitution and have children of prostitution.
PROSTITUTING SOMEONE’S WIFE IS A TEACHING METHOD FOR THE PROPHET HOSEA AND PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTATE AMAZIAH!!
Simply because all meetings are regulated, policed if you wish, and there is always the threat of being disfellowshipped hanging in the air.
Change will have to be clandestine of nature, softly softly catchee monkey!