Victims Voices – Helping abuse survivors in the UK

Regular Survey readers will be familiar with the work of Reclaimed Voices – an organisation set up in the Netherlands to support survivors of child sex abuse inside the religion of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The organisation has already accomplished huge strides in supporting nearly 300 victims, and understandably many observers have commented that more such organisations are needed all over the globe, since the JW abuse crisis is also global.

Thankfully it seems that such a global response is starting to take place, and in the UK that response comes in the form of the new organisation Victim’s Voices.  

Who are Victim’s Voices?

At present the Victims Voices is comprised of three women and one man, all of them former Jehovah’s Witnesses. Between them they have a background on counselling, media relations and website creation.

The member I was speaking to, who needs to conceal her identity to avoid being completely shunned by her JW family, has a long background in the Jehovah’s Witness religion. She was born into the religion, served as a Pioneer for ten years, and has a father who served as an Elder.

Victims Voices have a deep understanding of the culture and beliefs of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and are very much able to relate to the unique challenges and struggles that a person inside the religion will face.

Victim’s Voices- Building a Network

Victim’s Voices began when one of the founder members was in the process of questioning her beliefs as a Jehovah’s Witness, became very concerned about the ongoing child abuse issue, and wanted to form an organisation to support JW sex abuse victims. She began researching IICSA and the Charity Commission, then saw an interview on the BBC where journalist Felicity Kvesic interviewed JW Abuse Survivor Louise Palmer (this story is also covered here).

She reached out to Felicity to discuss the story and soon ended up on BBC Radio Hereford and Worcester discussing the issue. From there, Victims Voices expanded and was able to form working relationships with people such as solicitor Kathleen Hallisey who won the first civil case in the UK against Watchtower for its handling of child abuse, and to whom they have been able to refer other survivors to.

Victims Voices have also established a relationship with NAPAC, a UK organisation founded by Peter Sanders who is a survivor of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, and that also aims to provide services to abuse survivors. Working with NAPAC, Victim’s Voices have been able to undergo training in how to sensitively interact with survivors, including issues such as being aware of triggers, how to listen when a survivor is telling their story whilst minimising the risks of re-traumatising a survivor or experiencing vicarious trauma themselves.

(Incidentally, It’s worth noting that this makes the members of Victim’s Voices far more extensively trained to interact with survivors than Watchtower’s elders are.)

Victim’s Voices have also reached out to the Reclaimed Voices organisation, and spoke with them in order compare notes and understand they key factors in the success of the Dutch organisation. All of this has put the organisation into an excellent place to assist survivors of sexual abuse inside the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Victim’s Voices -What they offer.

The organisation is able to offer support and assistance to current and former members of the Jehovah’s Witness religion who have experienced child sex abuse.

They can also help refer such survivors to healthcare, legal experts or law enforcement if those survivors so wish. 

In addition, the organisation has a number of projects underway including

  • Conviction database. In co-operation with other ex-JW organisations, Victim’s Voices is putting together a database of all JW sex abuse convictions in the UK, created from court records and court reference numbers to get a confirmed list of JW abusers that cannot be factually disputed. This database will be available on request. If anyone is aware of a verified JW conviction for child abuse in the UK, Victim’s Voices would be grateful for the information to grow this database.
  • Recovery workshops. Victim’s Voices is looking to provide workshops to assist survivors with their recovery and cover topics such as self care and the importance of setting up good, supportive relationships. 
  • Working to educate therapists. There are many excellent therapists available in the UK, but at present many of them do not understand the specific challenges and struggles that a current or former member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses might face. Via networking and outreach, Victim’s Voices is working to help therapists better understand the specific needs of their JW clients.

If you feel that Victim’s Voices may be able to help you, you can contact them via the following methods.

Speaking for myself, it is extremely heartening to see that the spirit of support and solidarity towards abuse survivors is spreading, and that organisations like Reclaimed Voices and Victim’s Voices are stepping up to the call of helping those who were abused and abandoned, and giving them back their voice.

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113 Responses to Victims Voices – Helping abuse survivors in the UK

  1. Jeff Canning says:

    Sounds like a plan…

  2. Robyn Bass says:

    This is brilliant news. Look how far Re Claimed voices have come in such a short time. I wish all that are involved the very best. It’s so sad & disgusting that so called aspostates are the people that offer understanding & compassion to abuse survivors, while watchtower hides in a dark corner & continues to do & say nothing.

    • Eva Jennings says:

      Thank you for such empathetic words. We agree with your thoughts that sadly, innocent people have been horrendously failed.

      Victims Voices team

  3. Jo Hawley says:

    This is all wonderful work. Well done for tackling this and I wish you so much success. Proud of you – your work will improve the lives of many.

    • Linda says:

      Will enable many more too come forwards too greater the voice more awareness too

      • Eva Jennings says:

        We hope so Linda. We are aware of how much courage it takes to speak out and seek support and justice. We are here to boulster that courage and restore lost dignity.

        Victims Voices team

    • Eva Jennings says:

      We really appreciate what you have said Jo. Our work is fuelled by a strong sense of justice, to support those wronged by people they thought they could trust. Thank you for commenting in support, it means a lot to us.

      Victims Voices team

  4. Red Sonja says:

    This is an incredible work! The damage the watchtower has inflicted is disgusting and must come to an end! My many thanks to good passionate people such as you who truly are striving to help people.

    • Linda says:

      Totally agree with all you say too

    • Eva Jennings says:

      Thank you so much for supporting us with these words, we agree that it is disgusting and we want as many ad possible to feel empowered to contact IICSA- we want an Inquiry and we want justice for all those who felt silenced by Watchtower elders.

      Victims Voices team

  5. Maria frias says:

    Great job,keep it up!

  6. Resister says:

    Great work! Networking is the key! Thinking of a way to organize a “local chapter” in my area.
    The more help “mentally-diseased apostates” offer to victims, the more evident the contrast becomes between folks who actually care and want to help, and the callous, incompetent Watchtower Buffoonery.

    • Eva Jennings says:

      We hope by our work we can empower others to take up the support role too. Relational trauma is known now to be healed renationally…meaning that the healing is in good supportive networks who understand and can empathise. Do try and organise something in your area, it will without a doubt be successful and grow. There are many that need this support. Do contact us via DM here in twitter or our email for advice or support.

  7. Resister says:

    Hallelujah. Now that evolution has been established as fact, people no longer need to bow to the whims of religious clerics like the elders & Hovering Body of Jehovah’s Witlesses.

  8. Doc Obvious says:

    Watchtower talking heads do absolutely nothing to resolve this issue. I call the leadership do nothings.

  9. Linda says:

    Fantastic article as I myself was sexually abused as a child within the organisation my horrific abuse was covered up by a then jw family who years later still say that I’m a drama queen out too damage people’s reputations despite being targeted at age 7 yrs of age .
    Too this day my horrific abuse stays with me which has made me now realise I’m no longer alone with this vile crime tooh.

    • Resister says:

      I hope you find comfort and peace.
      You used the appropriate word, “targeted”. It’s a war out there. And, like the last days of the Third Reich, unfortunately it’s children who often find themselves on the front lines. But remember, what happened to you does not define you. It is not your responsibility. The full responsibility and trauma belongs to the subhuman perpetrator who debased himself lower than the lowest animal. To quote a “Kingdom Melody”, “Fear not those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the soul.” The only way to truly control / destroy someone is through the mind, not the body. Never through the physical.
      And you’re 100% right. Legitimately criticize Watchtower or any “upstanding” JW, and you’re a “drama queen”. But somehow not so when Watchturd screams about their “religious freedoms” and goes sprinting back and forth through the court system like it’s got a revolving door at the entrance, in order to secure their “rights”.
      Watchtower is run by Double-Standard Losers.

    • Eva Jennings says:

      We are deeply saddened that you experienced this. You are not alone Linda. What you were subjected to was criminal and abusive. Keep up your empowerment, we are here to support you.

      Victims Voices team

  10. Resister says:

    …or should I have put it this way:

    Watchtower is run by Double-Standard LOSERS.

  11. Sardaukar says:

    Someone compared this struggle to a war. Well, as in war, “We cannot guarantee that we will win. What we CAN guarantee is that we DESERVE to win.”

    • Eva Jennings says:

      We agree. Those without a voice deserve both a voice and justice. Abuse is criminal. We will do all we can to support survivors in finding a voice.
      Victims Voices team

  12. tranquillo says:

    I’m infinitely grateful for the work you are doing. The covering up of child abuse has to end at once.
    While we can’t sadly prevent all child abuse from happening, we must struggle that all survivors receive all help and justice is possible. My heart is with all victims. My mother was also abused as a child and the terrible trauma coupled with the victimisation did bring her to end her life a few years ago. I’m sure she is also happy with what you are doing

    • Eva Jennings says:

      Thank you for sharing such personal details and a heartfelt message. So sorry for your loss of your mother, and that she suffered too. We wholeheartedly agree that survivors must be heard, and justice IS possible. Thank you for your words of support it means a lot.

  13. Ricardo says:

    At my judicial committee hearing last month the elders used 2 Peter 2:10&11 to show that elders are glorious ones who even angels don’t criticize or speak against. So why should I speak out against the elders?

    Such thinking makes the congregations a garden bed for all kinds of misbehavior by the elders. They know only the stupid brothers will speak against them, and those brothers can be d’fed to keep things quiet. No wonder child abuse is rampant and bros and sisters are reluctant to speak out against it.

    In my case I was speaking out about a fake letter from the GB which the elders had put together to keep a brother seeking justice quiet. The end result was that both he and I were d’fed for raising this issue. I felt disgusted by what the elders have done. But child sex abuse in the congregations disgusts me more. I presented Bro Lett with a poster asking him to change Watchtower policy on this when he came to release the NWT Bible here last year; the elders described my actions as: an absolutely amazing occurrence.

    All the best in your efforts to help the pitiable victims which leadership don’t seem to care about, and in creating awareness of the problem which is rampant.

  14. John Butler says:

    Everyone talks about the bad issues but no one is talking about what an ex JW does next in their religious beliefs…. I left the Org in January this year purely because of the child abuse issues, and yes i’ve been shunned by all JW’s. My wife who is not baptised, still attends the meetings, but has been told she cannot talk to me about ‘spiritual matters’. I don’t quite know what they think gives them the right to tell my wife what she can and can’t do, as she’s not even baptised. I kind of find it funny. I’m trying to tell people, ex JW’s, those whom have been abused and those who are close to such ones, don’t get over emotional. Yes you feel anger and pain, but try to be balanced. What I’m saying is this. There must have been teachings within the JW religion, that you found made sense from a spiritual viewpoint. You have a Bible, you know how to use it, you must have looked at hundreds of scriptures. In my opinion, well for my own sanity, I’m trying to still think of God and His purpose for mankind. Although the child abuse / pedophilia is disgusting and shameful, and although the Governing Body should be thrown out of the Org and all eight of them should be in prison, there is still a glimpse of truth in what they teach from the scriptures. Yes their ‘rules’ are totally wrong. Shunning is totally wrong. Child abuse is just so sad and yes it makes me want to cry, but, what about the beliefs of us ? What do we still believe ? I’m trying to be level headed here. The Nation of Israel were God’s chosen people but so many times they were horrible and disgusting. So many times they disobeyed God and were punished…. And in the end they put Jesus to death…. Christianity was and is real. Serving God through Jesus Christ is still the aim. So surely God must have an Earthly organisation. Armageddon. It’s there in God’s word the Bible. The small fulfillment, destruction of Jerusalem, the big fulfillment, when ? Surely anyone that looks can see, this world is due for a big ‘make over’. Humans cannot go on as they are forever. Yes fight for what is right, but please don’t forget that God is still there for you.

    • outandabout says:

      well God wasn’t there for six million of his chosen people during the Holocaust, John.
      And what makes you say ‘surely God must have an earthly organisation?’ Why must he?
      If any JW can stand in any KH and read that Jew’s are the chosen ones, why do they go against the bible along and swear they are the chosen ones? What gives them the right to assume that?
      If the JW’s are the only ones following the Bible, why are they in such a mess compared to the Churches who take a more relaxed view of the Bible. Do you not notice that the closer the Bible is followed, the bigger the mess? Why does a ‘loving’ God want that. What’s going wrong?
      You’re right, Humans cannot go on as they forever because nothing is forever, but we’ll give it a damn fine shot! Can you honestly imagine a time in history when you would rather be alive than now? If so, I’d be interested to know when.


    • Ricardo says:

      @John Butler, the same thoughts are going through my head. I haven’t worked it out yet. The point being that although the org is rotten, God and the Bible and its moral teachings are not.

      I think we will only understand what is going on by looking back after some time has passed. We will definitely see the collapse of the org within the next 10 years. Maybe we should be preparing a place for the others who will be leaving the org, so they don’t completely lose faith. Has anyone worked it out yet?

      • outandabout says:

        but the bible did not ‘invent ‘ those moral teachings, Ricardo, but some are under the mistaken belief that no morals existed before. All the bible does is reiterate what people had already worked out through natural trial and error and noticing what works and what doesn’t. We unthinkingly want peace and order. If anything, the bible confuses right from wrong instead of setting the record straight. The GB are forced to talk out both sides of their mouth because the bible does, and they’re tying to follow that bible and stay afloat in todays world at the same time. It can’t work and this is why they’re in trouble. They must change but to do so is to go against the bible. They’re hamstrung. Hoisted by their own petard.
        But….so long as they have a market…an audience willing to engage in wish-thinking and imagining they are going to somehow escape the natural process of dying, the WT will exist in some form. We just have to notice what happened when the Worldwide Church of God and their JW-like teachings came clean……some left in dsigust, others hung on for awhile and others just refused to believe they could be wrong and carried on the same. If Scientology can exist on about 60,000 members, I’m sure WT could survive on the same number of high donating Mugs.

        • Ricardo says:

          @outandabout, I know the org might survive. But if it goes bankrupt- or even if it has serious financial trouble- surely the true believers will see it doesn’t have God’s blessing. Once the trust is gone… especially with regards to the child sex abuse coverup… I see a massive sudden exodus of members leading the GB to shut shop. I give it around 10 years.

          • Morris says:

            I can’t agree more Ricardo! It’s all about the funds that are not coming in the way they used to and the spending isn’t going to stop. It’s an addiction ~ pride. There will be more and more talks/parts on donations and using scriptures in a way to guilt those who can’t reason (lower educated individuals) to give more of what they don’t have. The WT need to downsize/simplify but yet they are doing just the opposite. Purchasing buildings to use solely for video productions vs making space with property they have. Just because something is on sale doesn’t mean you have to buy it. Abuse in other religions hasn’t caused mass exodus but many other religions are not controlling the way JW are. What if there is a motion to purchase a private jet (ie Jesse Duplantis).. Who would be in favor – who wouldn’t be and not raise their hand? I once didn’t raise my hand to agree or disagree and was approached afterwards. I just mentioned I needed more info to make a sound decision based on the proposal. I wasn’t about to stand out and disagree with the whole congregation. Point being, there are many kind and loving individuals but as you move up the chain of command it becomes more socialistic. It’s all about control, funds, etc …

          • Ricardo says:

            @Morris, I stopped putting up my hand for resolutions at least 15 years ago. It was after a resolution in which the elder said money was needed for material to cover over the electricity cables. Well, I could see that the cables were already covered so it didn’t make sense. Yet everyone in the hall put up their hand to support it. From that I could see that people were supporting without even thinking and so I stopped raising my hand. The elders plainly didn’t need my support. Next meeting the elder said he made a mistake with the resolution, the cables were already covered. He was meant to put forward a resolution about something else (I can’t remember what). Everyone supported it.

            In some congregations they ask for those who support to raise their hands, those against raise their hands (there is never anyone against) and those abstaining raise their hands . They never asked for those who just don’t give a rat’s armpit to raise their hands, so I never fitted into an appropriate category.

            A friend once didn’t raise his hand in support because he didn’t agree with the resolution…wow, didn’t his wife give him a talking to after the meeting. “Everyone was looking at us, blah blah, blah.”

            What a bunch of nutters!

      • Holy Connoli says:

        Ricardo. Personally I think that those who leave or will be leaving have to work it out on their own bc everyone is different. Some may look for another religion or FAITH that makes sense to their minds and hearts. Others will continue to search for meaning on their own. Some may stop believing in all faiths and even some may stop believing in God. ( not me )
        Many , may become angry realizing they wasted many years and much time with an Org that really did not care about them and never admitted their mistakes. Others will be forgiving and chalk it all up to life and its journey. All we can do is help them see there is life after the WT and you can be very happy without the FOG ( Fear, Obligation, Guilt ) that the WT puts over its followers. We dont have to have every answer to everybody. We just have to be good people ready to help when we can. There is a huge X JW community that is willing to help and others as well.

      • messenger says:

        You two defineatly need to read both of Ray Franz’s books. They are expensive, but you can find those used online. Start with Crisis of Conscience then read In Search of Christian Freedom. After finishing you’ll probably know what to do which includes what not to do.

    • Holy Connoli says:

      John Butler: So you left the Org? Were you DF’d or did you just become in active or DA yourself officially? Amazing they can tell your wife NOT to talk spiritual things w you? I mean she is your wife! Why does God have to have an earthly org? According to WT teachings for nearly 1800 years there were only a few scattered “TRUE BELEIVERS” on the earth until Russell came along with his Crazy Pyramid teachings and the “TRUTH” was reestablished. SO in reality even if that is true God did not have an earthly org for nearly 16-1800 years right and if he did nobody on earth knew about it. My point is WHY does God need an a earthly Org? God doesn’t need anything we humans can produce or give him. Like the scripture says even the “Rocks would cry out” if Jehovah wanted them to. The whole idea about an earthly org is something that comes from the WT alone.

      Plus if there really was one they would have been shown to be correct on what they predicted hundreds of times and the truth is THEY have never been correct from any prophecy they created. From early predictions to 1914 prophecy they have all been 100% wrong. Look then up and you will see. 1914 has been proven to be a Hoax and at the very least a totally misguided and false teaching.

      You mention the small fulfillment of Jerusalem in 70 ad haveing a Larger meaning right?
      From what I read recently in last 2-3 years all of those DOUBLE meaning and types and Anti Types teachings have been erased and no longer are believed and are only used as teaching tools in the bible now according to WT teachings. That is another thing that to me shows thee is no earthly org bc for 50 plus years those doctrines were taught as TRUTH!

      Now with one article in the WT they just come out and say it is not true anymore and we dont believe it. Therefore YOU ( Sheeple ) do not believe it either anymore. We will just erase it from your memory now. Please dont say well, thy e are preaching in 230 lands and we are only ones doing that. Not true. The fastest t growing Christian religion today is the Pentecostal religion with millions of followers all thru the world now and in Latin America as well. They are not all under one umbrella like the JW’s are but so what they still are preaching and growing rapidly. The Kingdom message the WT preaches is not the kingdom message of the bible bc it is all tied to an invisible 2nd coming of Christ in 1914 and his kingdom set up then. That is false and not scriptural.

      My point is there is no NEED for a so called earthly org. God can judge us individually
      whether or not we are JW’s or anything else. It isn’t ABOUT belonging to a ORG or a religion.

      • Big B says:

        BRAVO, Holy Connoli!;

        Your assessments are absolutely correct. There is no earthly organization that represents or speaks for the Almighty least of all the Watchtower Organization and Jehovah’s Witnesses.

        The “types and anti-types” teaching was discontinued about the same time as the Armageddon is a comin’ in 1975 nonsense. If this “organization” was a race horse and won as many “races” as “prophecies have come true”, then it deserves to be taken to the glue factory!

        To think of all the nonsense that has been foisted on the poor, gullible ‘sheeple’, which is no longer taught or printed, in its ever declining publishing operation, would stagger the imagination.

        Here’s just a small sample of the purple haze of indoctrination no longer taught as “the TRUTH”:
        1. each creative day was 7,000 years long;
        2. Adam’s birthday would be around Oct. 1975 marking the end of 6,000 years of mankind’s existence, (thus the start of Armageddon and beginning of Christ’s 1,000 year reign);
        3. the incessant preaching from door to door is a ‘separation’ work dividing the sheep and the goats and was being accomplished before 1975;
        4. all Bible studies were to end after six months if there was no progress towards baptism (Watchtower May 15, 1969).

        To many JW’s have listened to the siren song of a dancing panda paradise earth (a supposition) and a coming new system of things only to see the “inside of their eyeballs” at death. No education, no monetary security, no children or grandchildren basically a life wasted in a cult with absolutely NO reward. If anyone asked you to donate your time, gas and shoe leather cold calling people without the slightest chance of being paid but promised a reward latter on wouldn’t you tell that person to “go pound sand”? I sure would. What makes the Watchtower any different?
        In truth, it doesn’t.

        The 8 mental midgets of Warwick make promises for Jehovah but can’t deliver on those promises and He won’t either! Why? Because a Paradise Earth is not mentioned once in the Bible. Armageddon is always just around the corner; some corner, any time now. Promises made on suppositions are not Biblical based and are never going to be fulfilled. There is absolutely NO TRUTH in THE TRUTH, period. It’s a sham, and nobody alive today will live to see this Judaeo/Christian mythology realized. It’s all vanity and a striving after the wind.

        • Holy Connoli says:

          Big B. I think from a scriptural point of view you could make an argument for a paradise earth. I mean rev 21: says there is a new heaven and new earth and no more sickness, pain and sorrow. Also Peter speaks about new heavens and new earth where righteousness is to dwell, Isaiah speaks of similar and death being swallowed up forever, Jesus did say let your kingdom come and his will to be done on earth etc. Pslams speaks about Peace on the earth, Revelation speaks of the Kingdom ruling over the earth and on. SO from a biblical point of view I think there is ab argument and view point of the earth being cleansed and new and safe and peaceful. If you want to interpret that to mean a Paradise that is subject to interpretation.

          Other “Christian” religions as well believe the bible teaches their will be a paradise earth someday under the Kingdom rule. WT did not discover that teaching on their own.

          That being said does not give the WT a free pass to all the BS and false prophecies and hell they have subjected the followers to. They are as fake and false as they come.

          • Big B says:

            True enough H.C.

            However, anyplace (heaven or earth) would be considered a paradise with Satan and his influence removed. But according to scripture there are only four (4) places in the Bible that the word paradise is used. The Song of Solomon (Canticles) Ca 4:13 where the Shulammites skin is described; the reward of eating the tree of life in the Paradise of God at Rev 2:7, Jesus promises ‘paradise’ for the evil doer for his faith at Lu 23:43; and finally where Paul has no idea where the person of whom he wrote was (2 Co 12: 1-4).

            “Paradise earth”, that phrase, does not appear in the Bible at all, not once. It may be alluded to but that falls under supposition and interpretation. Jesus certainly did not refer to it while on earth as he spoke always about “the Kingdom of the Heavens is like this or like that” and for all we know he could have rewarded the evil doer that professed faith in him with that heavenly reward. Who says the wicked man that died with Jesus could never be a part of the heavenly calling? Because that was the only choice available at the time, right? There were no provisions for a Paradise earth or an earthly resurrection mentioned until the book of Revelation alludes to them. Only the misguided Watchtower says otherwise, that’s who.

            Jesus himself said that the Kingdom of the Heavens is the goal that all were reaching out for since the death of John the Baptist. Certainly, nobody was reaching out for a “Paradise Earth”. (Matt. 11:10-13)

            This is why I don’t believe that the 144,000 is a literal number. 12 symbolic tribes of Israel times (x) 12,000 symbolic numbers of each of those symbolic tribes, written in a book that is written in signs and symbols (Rev. 1:1) does not make a literal anything. Much less a literal 144,000. The year 2033 A.D. will be the 2,000 year of the death and supposed resurrection of Jesus Christ and that is all that he requires as members of the heavenly Kingdom? Didn’t Jesus say that in his Father’s house there are many abodes (John 14:2)?

            “Other “Christian” religions as well believe the bible teaches their will be a paradise earth someday under the Kingdom rule. WT did not discover that teaching on their own”. Truly, not to be argumentative, I have never met anyone here in the ‘Bible Belt’ that believes in a Paradise earth (except Jehovah’s Witnesses) or wishes to be in it. The hard-shell Baptist stronghold here believes that they are heaven bound and everyone else can go straight to HELL, if they are told otherwise. Literally.

            Personally, I believe that the “Paradise Earth” is maybe another supposition or gimmick of the Watchtower similar to the drunken nonsense Judge Rutherford was spewing out in the 1920’s namely, “millions now living will never die.” It’s just like his delusional belief that the “other sheep” that Jesus’ already had in the first century are the same as the “great crowd” mentioned as survivors of Armageddon! Really? Everyone I have ever talked with says that the other sheep are the Gentiles and Samaritans that put faith in Jesus before Peter used the keys of the Kingdom to ‘officially’ let them in to the congregation. I concur with that thought as Jesus has them (in the present tense “I have”) right at that time; certainly not 1900+ years in the future.

            That being said, I firmly believe that any and all Christians putting faith in Jesus Christ have an opportunity (Jesus’ choice) to be a part of the Heavenly Kingdom and if there is a Paradise Earth it will be for those from John the Baptist back to righteous Abel, son of Adam, not to mention those who have never heard the word or put faith in Jesus. That’s why its imperative not to reject the sacraments at the Lord’s Evening Meal. Those that do so, I firmly believe, reject Jesus as the Christ and his ransom sacrifice. Better safe than sorry and it is better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.

            “That being said does not give the WT a free pass to all the BS and false prophecies and hell they have subjected the followers to. They are as fake and false as they come”. Right on!

            Big B

    • eyes opened says:

      Yes John you have a Bible and you can be a Christian without organized religion. I feel that is the only way. Religions seem to be the result of men wanting to impose their own brand of doctrine. Jesus didn’t teach doctrine as such but rather how to live a life that benefits yourself and others.

      Glad to see that there are people able to expose the org and get the truth to the public. Soon there will be no more hiding from their heartless actions.


  15. Jason says:

    Just came back from the regional convention, all I can say it was a bunch of anti gay, fear mongering propaganda

    • Holy Connoli says:

      Jason. Where was the convention at?
      My wife goes to hers in a few weeks. End of June in San Fransisco area.
      She doesn’t seem to excited about it? In the past she would be all pumped up for it like a kid waiting for Christmas. Now I hardly hear her speak of it.. Maybe after so many years now she is tired of the recycled material. We are the only ones. We are right. You are wrong! The end is imminent but yet never comes. Preach more and give us more donations. Dont go to college, don’t Associate with your family id f they are not JW’s. You MUST never speak to a DF person even if your Father or Mother. Overlapping 1914 generation so now just wait another 50 years maybe but it is imminent. Jesus came in 1914 believe us we just didn’t see him! lol 1918 doesn’t matter anymore and on and on. Hurry up and wait.

      • Big B says:

        @ Holy Connoli;

        Oh, don’t forget we are the chosen ones! Picked out of all religious groups in 1919! Two words for those that believe this, “PROVE IT!” Show anyone, any example of this. Good luck with that! Here is the reality:

        Failed prophecy’s galore, child molestation judgements in the 10’s of millions of dollars with no end in sight, no contributions, no printing of literature, no growth, no yearbook, and absolutely no end in sight as the Armageddon can has been kicked so far down the road Jesus Christ couldn’t find it with a telescope. Almost 150 years since their inception and still the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have their doctrines straight?!

        Now tell me again why anyone believes this is God’s Organization?

    • Markie says:

      First convention I am looking forward to. Can’t wait to see the hot lesbians.

  16. Whip It says:

    Ricardo, i saw a clip on a part of the Elders Book, that they can handle their own sins, i haven’t read that myself, but it doesn’t surprise me, does anyone know of this?

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It, yes, I have seen that one. It is on page 38 par 19. What a joke. Jump into bed with someone then 10 years later at an elders’ meeting confess and get forgiven and the congregation doesn’t need to know. Fantastic!

      Which scriptures back that up? Unfortunately there are none mentioned in the Shepherd book.

  17. Slumdog says:

    2018 AD: A man ventures into the wilderness, hears “God” talking to him, comes back and tells everyone – Gets put on medication.
    1500 BC: A man ventures into the wilderness, hears “God” talking to him, comes back and tells everyone – Gets declared a “prophet”, Starts a whole new religion.

    • outandabout says:

      well lets go back even further than 1500 BC, Slumdog. Lets go back to Man standing alone with no knowledge of life, the Universe or anything. All he knows is that he exists. All of a sudden there’s a boom and lightning splits a tree in half before his eye’s. Or a storm blows trees over. He sees the power of Nature but has no concept of what Nature actually is. Does he get out his Encyclopedia Britannica for an answer? All he can understand is that there is something invisible, very large, very powerful, unpredictable and has the capacity to destroy him but it can also create. What he’s observing is nature at work but doesn’t know it so he starts to invent gods to explain these happenings and starts making offerings to please these gods, etc, etc, and everything grows into an industry and lifestyle from complete ignorance.
      When explorers discovered other lands they found people with gods as well and they were also invisible, powerful, etc. Is it a coincidence that the god of the bible is also invisible, powerful, controls everything, has power over peoples lives and can create and destroy – just like Nature.
      I see the god of the bible as just an evolution of our earlier gods of which belief in was mostly mandatory also and openly denying them could result in being put to death. Belief in the bible has been held in place by self interest, delusion, sickening righteousness, force, terror, superstition, wish-thinking, ignorance and the fear of death and is the root cause of all these abuse victims.
      Nature is God and God is Nature. If we need to fear anything, fear that, because in the end, it’s gonna getcha.

      • Resister says:

        Good points, outie. The good church/mosque/synagogue/temple-going folks of this world are so eager to please their gods, they rush to their places of worship in their SUVs and pickup-trucks the size of an M1 Abrams tank, burning fossil fuels galore and gassing Mother Nature to death. Damn right it’s gonna getcha. And if there’s a God, do folks honestly think He’s gonna feel sorry for us???!!!
        What sets the Bible god apart from the others? Someone decided to write a book about him. 😀 😀 😀
        I never understood the whole ‘sacrifice’ drill. It’s like you give your child a Lego set with 1000 pieces, then say, “I want 100 pieces back.” WTF? If you wanted those 100 pieces for yourself, why didn’t you just keep them in the first place, you f***ing idiot. Your daughter turns 16, gets her driver’s licence. OK Sweetie, I bought you a nice new Honda. But you have to give me the left rear wheel. WTF???

        • outandabout says:

          you were a JW, Resister….could you direct me to biblical accounts of the masses and hordes of paparazzi, etc that would have converged on the Middle East once word spread around the known world that the son of God had been born. Human nature dictates that the kid and then the man should have been surrounded by tens of thousands of sycophants all his life. Accounts of this sort of thing should be larger than the bible itself, all the way through for 30 yrs, but nothing except one account aged twelve. Well that’s just far too unbelievable. Are we to believe – “look, Dad, who’s that”? “That’s just the son of god, creator of everything son. Just ignore him at continue tending those goats”? Rubbish! That would not have happened! Just look at the way the press is hung up on the Royal babies and they are absolutely nothing compared to the son of god. It’s as if Jesus just materialized aged 30 or so. Where is the proof that the kid born in Bethlehem was the guy crucified at Calgary.

        • Big B says:


          I believe what you refer to as the “Sacrifice drill” was firmly entrenched as a part of “true” worship by Moses along with the tithes that were required to support the Arronic priesthood as they had no territorial stake in the promised land other than a few cities and pasture land associated with those cities.

          With the destruction of Jerusalem, in 70 A.D. by the Romans, this effectively ended the sacrifices at the destroyed temple as well as the Arronic priesthood. Only the tithe remains as a way to support the ministers and upkeep the places of worship in Christendom.

          However, I will not be surprised if the Watchtower doesn’t come up with tithing as a way to get needed funds from the friends. Some scriptural hocus-Pocus involving Abraham is sure to be used as he started the tithe to Melchizedek long before the Mosic Law required the Israelites to do so. That could seriously be considered as a way to get needed funding.

          The elders will then be forced to follow instructions from the Watchtower to “ask” (read: require) the friends to release their income tax information to see what their yearly income is and then set a tithe amount for the year (recording the amount of the tithes received). This is done by many churches (especially the Catholic Church) here in USA. With that information in hand the friends (sheeple) will be forced to give, whether they can afford to or not. This will effectively end the donation arrangement although the contribution boxes will not be removed as many friends place contributed monies gleaned in field service in them.

          It’s just a matter of time, attrition and continued desperation as more of their adherents leave the Truth in disgust or die off which drys the cash cow. Once the Society has their hands firmly in the pockets of the friends, demanding tithes, then stand back and watch the implosion!

  18. Slumdog says:

    Does Donald Trump control you?

    To know who is in control, find out who you are not allowed to criticize.

  19. Whip it says:

    Slumdog, so who is in control?, need to know that one, always interested in other opinion, Ricardo, yes it is a joke, when i stood down as an Elder many moons ago it was due to my good fellow Elder finding porn on my computer, he was/is a computer tech, another friend (Elder) of mine said that if that was today you would get away with it because no one knows, 2 rules, one for them & one for the rest, the hipocracy is out of control.

  20. Resister says:

    Absolutely, out&about. You’re a man who thinks, not a man who stinks, and you’re making me think. Ouch. 😀 Nope, I can’t find any evidence that “Jesus” was ever swarmed by paparazzi. In fact, I think that Kim Kardashian gets more press than the “Meschiak”. Lol I just watched something on the TV about some minor skin condition that she has. Can’t wait to learn the outcome of that.
    BTW, probably just a typo, but made me laugh – “…the guy crucified at Calgary.” If it was the same guy, he sure got around. Lol
    To elaborate on my ‘sacrifice’ rant, why would Yahweh even need a cow? Didn’t Yahweh invent cows?? I mean, if Yahweh really needed a burnt cow, couldn’t he just grab one himself??? Or better yet, he could just make his very own special cow. The best cow ever. The perfect cow. Then he could go ahead and set it on fire or whatever bizarro thing, to get his kicks.

    • outandabout says:

      if Yahweh put ‘the breath of life’ into Man, why didn’t he simply take it away again instead of wasting Noah’s time. Too easy? Doesn’t make for good reading?

      • Big B says:

        Great point, outandabout.

        Personally speaking, I don’t put much faith in anything the Bible says or records before Abraham. Adam & Eve? Could that not be a Hebrew version of “Pandora’s Box”? Can anyone truly believe that Adam lived to be exactly 930 years old; how about Methuselah? Everyone, except the most fanatical Bible thumper, believes that man has been on earth for tens of thousands of years if not longer. Science and archeology have proven that beyond the shadow of any doubt.

        Truly, the Bible was written FOR the Jews, ABOUT the Jews, BY the Jews. Not one gentile writer in the entire 66 books of the Bible. Not one. The prophecy of the coming of the Messiah was strictly a Jewish affair and no gentiles were looking for anyone or even had a Messiah as their beliefs (mythology) had no “original sin” to need a Messiah to rectify a natural state of affairs.

        Which begs the question, what is the difference between mythology and religion? Mythology was once a religious belief system that has been discarded and replaced by another religious belief (Christianity) or in modern times, science and reason. This, in itself, has been the undoing of Christendom, Islam, and the rest of the religions of mankind. Religion is losing adherents as well as influence and as a result not really gaining control of the hearts and minds of intelligent sophisticated individuals.

        Religion is a third world phenomenon, where superstition and ignorance reigns supreme. This is where the religious systems hold the most power and influence. Their last stand as it were.

        • outandabout says:

          By crikey, Big B, that lightning bolt for you gets sharper by the day.
          What confounds me, Big B, is how Liberty University can even be called a University at all if they have a Dinosaur bone they claim to be 3000 yrs old. Sure, carbon dating was unreliable at the start and Liberty are hanging on to that for dear life because now there are about five dating methods available and when they’re all applied to the same object, and when they all reveal similar or identical results…….well.
          You mention ignorance reigning supreme in the Third World, which is true, but what the hell goes on at Liberty. And then you have Ken Ham inside his Ark Encounter lying to groups of children about how the fossil record proves The Flood. It doesn’t. It shows layers of fossils spanning millions of years and the newer the fossil bed, the more complex the life- forms. Evolution, but keep it quiet.

          • Big B says:

            Just confirms the points made by everyone here, outandabout; Insanity and ignorance is universal especially when religion is involved.

            The late Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are making money hand over fist with their televangelist movements and so called “accredited” universities.

            Just think about it outandabout; in addition to a degree in basket weaving a diploma and degree can be conferred for a major in stupidity with a minor in ignorance. Isn’t the education system wonderful. And from a Christian university too!

          • outandabout says:

            There’s a French adage, Big B……’to understand everything is to forgive everything’. I can’t say I’m completely there on that but if you think about our fallibility and our sheeple like tendency to follow the person with the biggest voice, to look at the bigger picture of our progress through the ages and all the grief and misery we inflicted on each other and how all we could ever do was act on our understanding and knowledge we had at any particular time, and realizing all we’ve been through are steps we had to take to get to where we are now, I get a peep of the meaning.
            One thing puzzles me though…. in the animal world, why did God make Goats more intelligent than Sheep?

  21. Resister says:

    HAL 9000 is acting up again. But I guess my posts will eventually appear like last time. Sorry for any duplicates.

  22. Resister says:

    Watched an old episode of Star Trek on Dailymotion last night. So the Klingons take over a primitive planet. They declare, “You are now subjects of the Klingon Empire. There will be many rules and regulations to learn, each of which shall be punishable by death if violated.”
    Made me think of the “New System”.

  23. Doc Obvious says:

    Here is a picture of a Watchtower Demon.

  24. Holy Connoli says:

    My wife who is an Active ( not as much as the past ) JW had her Ipad on today and had me listen to a few songs she said are now on JW .org and other JW channels? It was weird bc to me it sounded like “CHRISTIAN ROCK” music. I think the song was called dont give up or something like that with a catchy tune. IS this something new the WT has sanctioned and do they play it an listen to it at the KINGDOM hall now? Maybe they are testing the JW friends to see if it will go over well or not. It was very strange to me bc I remember when I was a JW they would criticize other churches for playing Rock Music and other music to “attract” young folks and say they were desperate for new members and it was all rom Satan they would say.

    Can anyone enlighten me? IS this a brand new JW thing?

    • Ricardo says:

      @Holy, yes, many of the new songs have really catchy tunes which I also would describe as Christian Rock music. I was disappointed to hear it because I too remember we would criticise other religious groups for using such music to attract young ones. I said something about it on a couple of occasions to others in the hall, even elderly ones, but they loved it. Incredible! I thought perhaps I was becoming overly critical. But in my mind I put it down as a further step of hypocrisy by the GB, a further act of desperation to try to keep members. Such tokenism isn’t working with the young ones, however. They are leaving in droves.

      Thank you for confirming my misgivings about the new songs. I simply refused to sing some of them . I thought I was in a charismatic meeting and the members would soon be dancing around clapping their hands.

    • Markie says:

      It is christian rock. Music that would be condemned not too long ago. Elders and old sisters would be saying “would you listen to that music if Jesus was here?” Pretty gay sounding crap too.

  25. Holy Connoli says:

    Ricardo. Thanks for the info. Do they actually sing these songs at the meetings or is it just on the website etc?
    Is it part of the “SONG BOOK” now? Do they say who the Artists are that sing and write these songs?
    I am shocked that they did this based on my history as a JW and what was said about the other Churches that did this type pf thing. Very surprising. Like you said however it is a desperate attempt to keep people from leaving especially young people. I have one JW friend who has been a JW all his life in his late 50’s now and about 10 years ago he was ready to leave the JW’s and his comment was that in 10-15 years the JW”s would become like the Baptist or Presbyterian church on the corner and just sort of blend in with the other churches. He never did leave the JW’s bc he had a stroke and I think that scared him into coming back to meetings and things like that.

    I like the guy a lot but Before the stroke he was very much always trying to get away with everything including things that were border line for JW’s to do, like celebrate holidays, Scam on paying taxes,
    Go to places where most JW’s did not go to, and many other things I wont discuss here. Now however all of a sudden after his stroke he is a good JW?

    I would like to know more about these Songs and where they sing them and who the artists are? etc.

    • Markie says:

      The $hity songs or better said music videos are just on the website. The meetings now a days have very little context about the bible and more about behavior. I told me wife if we start watching music videos at the hall, I am done.

      • Ricardo says:

        @Markie and @Holy,
        The latest songs sung at the hall are also Christian Rock. One song I refused to sing started with the words : How does it make you feel…. It had a really jazzy pace to it. Then there’s the song about: it’s the heart and not the face, it’s the person not the place. I didn’t like that one either . I don’t know the song numbers because these were added songs to the old song book, and then we got a new songbook which noone used because we read the words off the screen which was installed in every hall.

        However, the monthly broadcasts also have extra music videos (I have never watched a broadcast. I can’t stand them. I have only watched Cedars’ rebuttals) which can no doubt be found on ( I don’t go there either. That site does strange things to people . Remember Jado?)

        Of course we aren’t told who the artists are. They must remain anonymous.


  26. Slumdog says:

    Most people in this world think the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a benign organization. But if you really look around, you can see that their influence, among other groups as well, has contaminated the world. We know all about Watchtower’s grand strategy of pushing their version of reality, and of changing that “reality” when it suits them or whenever it’s been proven false beyond the shadow of a doubt. Now we see the same Orwellian moves in the highest echelons. Last year, after President Trump’s inauguration, then-Press Secretary Sean Spicer made an exaggerated claim regarding the attendance at said inauguration. When he was called on it, one of Trump’s advisors, Kellyanne Conway, explained it as Spicer simply offering “alternative facts.” People called this Newspeak, after the Orwellian term. And it is no coincidence that, after this incident, sales of Orwell’s novel 1984 soared by 9500%. Watchtower has made a lifelong career of offering the public “alternative facts.” And the more they get away with it, the more other nefarious people and organizations will be encouraged to do the same. I believe that if this continues, we may find ourselves actually living the 1984 scenario, if we are not already, to some degree. And people who think that they are immune to Watchtower’s subtle influence, simply because they have never had the misfortune of being a Jehovah’s Witness, are sorely mistaken.

  27. outandabout says:

    I wouldn’t attribute the WT that much power, Slumdog. Those tactics you speak of have been used by anyone with an agenda of control since before WT existed. The WT are copying, not leading and although some might imagine they have influence in society, they actually have naf all. It’s only the deluded and gullible Witnesses who believe the WT are major players on the world stage, shaping and influencing events while being the big boy’s on campus. The WT is a back pedalling disgrace and an insult to human intelligence.

  28. Whip it says:

    List of things condemned in the past, Use of Lap tops at meetings, tele evangelists, rock music, now we are encouraged to use a computer, tablet, watch JW.Bore, & get rocking at the KH.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It, add to that: previously we were told not to use the Watchtower tower symbol, not even to put it on the kingdom hall sign; now jw.orgy is everywhere: on cars, umbrellas, pens, pins, kingdom hall signs, toilet paper. Okay, maybe not on toilet paper. Not yet.But it is everywhere else. Churches have a cross. We have jw.orgy.

      • Big B says:

        Hey Ricardo,

        I hope all is well with you and your son. Stay strong, you have support here!

        Oh, could it possibly be that the flagship magazines are going to be discontinued and Jehovah’s Witnesses are distancing themselves from their past incorrectness? After all “say it forget it, write it regret it”. It’s just a small step to make the magazines for the publishers only with the Watchtower being a monthly study issue. That’s just my take on it.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Big B, at my judicial committee hearing last month the elders warned me not to be tricked by apostate sites which seem to offer support and comfort.

          I haven’t seen the elders for the past month. No support and comfort coming from them. But I guess it’s between me and Jehovah, right? Sometimes the brothers have their failing times but the organization has its shining times (see the rebuttal for Friday of the Regional Assembly). I haven’t been able to see the shining times yet.

          When I got d’fed, the group of victims together with d’fed ones had a party for me. They bought me a cake. Wow, it was better than getting baptized .

          About the magazines, why bother to bring out the Watchtower 4 times a year? They may as well stop publishing.

          All this talk about the end coming real soon may make sense in the West where the preaching work has been done for more than a century. But here in Asia, it makes no sense. There are hardly any witnesses here. Look at China and India. There will be slaughter on a huge scale if Armageddon comes anywhere in the next few decades. It seems so ridiculous here to hear the brothers talk about the end coming soon. May as well throw the hands up in the air and give up.

          The West is full of brothers and sisters who wet their pants at the least little news showing the end may be closer. It is sickening.

          I think the org is producing a bunch of narcissists. I am special, God drew me into the truth. I am one of the few survivors should Armageddon come. Or, I am an elder. I am in Jesus’ right hand. I am a glorious one. And as narcissists, they don’t want anyone to burst their bubble. But the child abuse scandals can’t be kept secret forever. I can’t wait for the POP!

          • Big B says:

            Yeah, Ricardo. Why be tricked by apostate web sites when you can be duped by Better the “Devil you already know than the Devil you don’t know.”

            Reality of their own incompetence and demotion to “lay ministers”, a slight by the Societies own attorneys hasn’t dawned on the Elders of the Evil Slave, as yet. Soon the news will come out. It’s almost impossible to get anyone to serve as elders here in Virginia; as most elders transfer in to elder deficient congregations.

            As far as Armageddon goes, I don’t worry about what I have absolutely no control over or what I will never live to see. If my interpretation of the scriptures is correct, which is why I trashed all of my theocratic library, the stupid moronic Watchtower will have to drop 1914 from their teachings soon. Then watch the hemorrhaging of adherents as they leave the Kingdom Hall! Maybe then they will think of transfusions of more thought out and non-Mosiac Law doctrines (think two Witness rule) but I doubt it. Just to stupid and stubborn. Most Witnesses have not noticed the changes to the organization like
            I have. It’s ever so subtle. Example: how do you boil a live frog? Put him in a pot of room temperature water then, ever so slowly, turn up the heat. Before the frog knows it his ‘goose is cooked’, literally! Otherwise he will jump out if he is dropped into boiling water immediately, right? This is exactly how the Watchtower operates with its doctrinal changes, corrections and adjustments. Oh, don’t forget to add that this adjustment is “New Light” from God’s very own earthly organization! This way the friends can be cooked just like Mr. Frog, one degree at a time.

    • Big B says:

      @ Whip It;

      The Watchtower and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are going backwards in their preaching methods. As you mentioned “tablets at the door” is nothing more than an updated version of the portable phonograph players with records of Judge Rutherford lambasting the Churches of Christendom.

      Obviously being able to use the scriptures from door to door is not emphasized like it was during the times before 1975. In fact I never used a tablet when I went in field service, nor did I know anyone who did. I would always use the A.V. (King James Bible) when going in field service as this is the version most people, in the “Bible Belt”, had. I stopped going out in field service around 2009 and faded completely by the end of 2013. My last meeting was at the Friday afternoon convention session and I never returned.

      It just proves just how much ignorance there is when it comes to critical thinking skills and plain reasoning and how much the Witnesses have gone completely off course. The Organization has lost it’s way. Many of the friends can’t or won’t see the changes because they are too blinded by the indoctrination and are too lazy or fearful to do their own research. The young people today cannot be retained and the Watchtower continues to get ever more paranoid in their never ending bunker mentality of ‘Armageddon is a comin’ pronunciations. It’s the Chicken Little ‘the sky is falling’ mentality ad nauseum. The harder the Watchtower squeezes to retain members the more adherents slip through their fingers!

      The assemblies are becoming conventions of the elderly as more space on the convention floor is being devoted to their seating. Poor, pathetic, deluded people. Panning for gold in a pile of dog manure and finding nothing but stinky fools gold.

      However, will the Watchtower change their policies and salvage what little decency they have left before they go to insolvency, irrelevance and extinction like the dinosaurs? Two word summation; Hell no!

  29. Resister says:

    Everyone and their Granny knows the Anglican Church / C of E was invented by Henry VIII. So there you have it, an entire denomination of Christianity literally created to serve some despot’s ego and penis.
    How far off are all the others?

  30. Resister says:

    My favorite part of the bible is where Jonah gets thrown off the boat for starting a mutiny. Then a big fish tries to eat him, but he raises his staff and the fish splits in two, allowing Noah’s Ark to Pass Over it because Noah sprinkled lamb’s blood on the door posts of the Ark. Then Noah pulls Jonah out of the water as Jesus strolls by waving. Jonah helps Noah’s family scoop the monumental amount of poop produced by all the animals, including the spiders, earthworms, mosquitoes, tse tse flies, assorted bacteria, etc, etc, etc (two of EACH kind, remember). Then the waters subside, and Noah sends out a dove, which brings back a dead rat in its beak, obviously indicating the presence of dry land. They beach the Ark, and proceed with much rejoicing, which involves building and worshipping a golden calf. Yahweh gets pissed and sentences them to forty years’ wandering in the desert, after which they enter the promised land with the help of Samson, who kicks the Philistines’ asses, that is, until his girlfriend gives him a haircut. Apparently, a haircut to Samson was like Kryptonite to Superman. Go figure. Does the Holy Spirit only reside in HAIR??? I wonder what happened to all the clippings? Did they morph into a Viking god? Thor, maybe? So then Jesus finally made it to shore, turned some water into wine, and there was much rejoicing. If you’re wondering what happened to all the dinosaurs, they couldn’t fit on the ark. Just ask Sarah Palin. If you live in Russia, just holler in the direction of Alaska. She can see you. The unicorns didn’t make it either. They were stupid. They sneaked up to the upper deck of the Ark to run around, and fell over the side.
    Yeah, that’s my favorite part of the bible.

  31. Slumdog says:

    Why are 7 of the 8 nobodies who comprise the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses white? In their history how many members of their Governing Body have been non white? The Watchtower Society does represent God…as a racist.

    • Big B says:

      Interesting observation Slumdog;

      Growing up in the South, during racial segregation and the “Jim Crow” Laws, I remember that the Witnesses had two separate circuits, two separate venues for assemblies, and two separate congregations. The Witnesses practiced segregation and thought nothing of it. It was just the way things were. This was at least the mid-50’s and I was a small boy growing up in Richmond, VA. Before the inaction of the civil rights amendment, during the LBJ administration, the Witnesses started meeting together in the South as they had been doing in the rest of the USA.

      However, the two hours of Sunday morning, when people worship basically the same deity, is still called the most segregated time in the United States and nobody says or does a damn thing! Not one peep from the NAACP or anyone else, amazing! I guess religious segregation has God’s approval and blessings. Can I get an “Amen” from the congregation, friends? Yes, Amen and Hallelujah! Come Lord Jesus!

      Still your point is well founded as Brother Herd seems to be the token black in a religious organization that world wide, in my estimation, is composed mostly of non-Caucasian peoples. Wouldn’t a mix of Asians, Hispanics, Blacks and Caucasian peoples better serve as a Governing Body as far as showing universal appeal? All the Watchtower is managing to do is leading people to believe that they are a small United States corporate entity, with old white men at the helm with a token 80 year old black man included for show.

      I guess the Holy Spirit is not as prevalent among the non-Europeans in this self serving, self appointed bunch of Pope wannabes. Yes, a watered down apartheid is truly alive and well in “God’s Spirit directed organization”.

    • Resister says:

      All too true, Slummie. Couldn’t agree more. Their horns are showing.

  32. Resister says:

    I can laugh off most of the sensationalism that forms the crux of every major religion. But the thing that really grinds my gears, mostly due to its sheer arrogance, is the teaching that Outer Space is beyond Man’s “approved” domain. Kinda like, “If man was meant to fly, God would’ve given him wings”. BOLLOCKS. He didn’t give us wings ‘cause we don’t need ‘em. We have something better. A highly-developed brain with which we can devise ways to mine elements from the Earth and shape and assemble them into flying machines, etc, etc, etc. Someday we will use that same gray matter to develop the materials and technologies required to propel us to the stars. The Watchturd Turdbrains point to some dumbass bible verse that claims ‘the heavens belong to yahweh, but the earth he gave to man’. Well, aside from the fact that that verse can be interpreted 278 different ways, what would “yahweh” do with, or in, our physical universe? Isn’t he a “spirit”? Doesn’t he abide in a whole other dimension? What need does he have for physical stars, moons, and planets? And if his intent was just to give us lots of twinkly lights to admire at night, couldn’t the Creator of the Universe have come up with a much more efficient way to do that, rather than creating gargantuan thermonuclear furnaces and placing them billions of light-years away? What sheer, pompous, self-important, self-absorbed, narcissistic, blind, deaf, dumb arrogance for anyone to claim that they have it on good authority, from no less than the Creator of the Universe, that we were not meant to reach for the stars. Since I can’t presently think of a better word, I’ll just repeat myself, BOLLOCKS.
    Frankly, I believe the religious gurus of our planet are terrified that one day we will all fly away and leave them with no more drooling sycophantic followers to hang off their every proclamation. After all, Space Travel would change everything. Including religion and politics. There are many folks who may claim to be Space fans, but who would love to keep us all down here on their cozy little Prison Planet forever. Lol To those enchanted individuals, I say, just as Albert Einstein worked on his Relativity equations while working as a patent clerk, without computer, calculator, or slide rule, just as the Wright brothers quietly and unobtrusively designed and built a flying machine within the confines of their bicycle repair shop, there may very well be some mad scientist(s) out there, as we speak, figuring out a way to confound the laws of physics as we know them, and to develop the technologies that will take us to the stars. And then, you’re screwed. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

  33. Clicks11 says:

    A couple months ago John Redwood or either Covert Fade shared their observation that the Governing Body takes notice of comments made by dissenters on sites such as this one. After I read that I decided I would not offer any comments directly to the GB, as I had planned to do prior to reading John’s comment. I’ve expressed many views about its actions on this and some other sites. Back then I considered those posted comments sufficient.

    Ray Franz, in his book [In Search Of Christian Freedom] informs readers the GB sees very few letters addressed to it that are delivered unsolicited. Never-the-less, despite John Redwood’s and Ray Franz’s claims I have about-faced my opinion and decided to write the GB directly. My decision reversed after a recent review of Ezekiel chapter three. My letter may offer nothing more than a display to readers like yourself that we can speak out and our voices count. Then again the letter might also allow just one person at Bethel, the brother who reads it in the Watchtower Service Department, to consider (not just hear) some views that contradict what he has accepted as part of “The Truth.” God willing it might even be read by some Governing Body members. Stranger things have happened.

    In the last article I read from John he encouraged us to keep writing and keep talking about things needing change as discussed on this site. Below are two similar admonitions.

    “Ten people who speak out make more noise than ten thousand who remain silent.” Napoleon Bonaparte
    “One person along with Jehovah is a majority.” A quote taken from a JW elder and friend of mine

    The letter I’ll send today to the Governing Body follows:

    To: The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses
    1000 Red Mills Road
    Wallkill, NY 12589-3299

    Dear Brothers:

    Under a command from God found in Ezekiel chapter three I offer these comments. As a Christian I am born again and anointed by God’s spirit which compels me to speak. The fact that I chose to use a pseudonym speaks volumes, demonstrating that I, as a born again Christian, consider there exists the possibility of experiencing severe censure ( disfellowshiping) for merely offering corrective thoughts addressed to you about who Christ considers Christian, and how he leads his congregations. Nevertheless, while risking censorship I don’t write in spite. I hope my words are not taken as hateful or condemnatory, even though judgmental. For I have no malice towards you, or any anger, and though some regret is present it is regret for your actions not mine. And if censorship comes ‘so be it.’ I won’t keep a silent tongue on matters of faith due to threats, which unmasks a present motif here. Why should Jehovah’s Witnesses fear sharing biblical truths that contradict YOUR teaching? I pray you individually weigh these thoughts while considering how the scriptures affect your position before Christ. We can only do so much to influence others (including your fellow Governing Body members).Fittingly we will be judged as individuals. Please reconsider your teaching in these two areas:
    • Topic one: The ‘faithful and discrete slave’ parable was offered by Christ to show how we should act to please him as we assist other members of his flock. It was not given for any other reason. We read in that parable that consequences, both good and bad, received from the master only applied to that slave. There is no mention in the account of any consequences, good or bad, applying to the Christians that particular slave does or does not assist. That is, no positive consequences were given to that group other than receiving spiritual help from that particular slave-but no consequences from Christ as a result of their actions are mentioned. Moreover, no mandate is included requiring the spiritually assisted group to follow that particular slave. The absence of such a mandate was implied while informing that the slave spoken of might become evil and begin to do the master’s work in harmful ways, even beating his fellow slaves. God warns against following people taking that course. It is this additional thought (the beatings and slave’s bad acts) that confirms Christ was speaking to us, all servants that assist congregation members (or those who teach). He was not referring to one or more than one collective group, either a present day or historical group to which he gives exclusive oversight of his congregations. Rather Christ named that slave as a singular slave and not as his collective body of slaves (or a collective part of that body). There is only one Master, as it should be, and that is Christ who has many slaves assigned to do his bidding. The parable further shows for a Christian slave to speak against congregational tyranny is not egotistical. It is scriptural. Christ so does in his parable, as he included the evil slave. No doubt many of the divisions in the historical church occurred because of tyrannical rules and beliefs enforced on congregants. But this parable advises how to act while fulfilling our assignments as messengers for Christ. We should not treat Christians like those who killed him. We should treat them his “Way” and not judge those less knowledgeable as unworthy when their thoughts conflict with our belief system. If Christ did the same to us no one could be saved. But we are saved, and it is not knowledge that saved us. So, with the knowledge we do have who will be faithful? is the point Christ made, not who makes the rules, interprets the scriptures, demands our obedience. The proof that we can live while getting some of that wrong is ever present. We’re alive. Now to reiterate. We see no mandate in the parable that places any of us at the top of a hierarchy as an authority to set rules and standards that go beyond scripture into elaborate interpretations describing scriptural applications, and then demand all Christians follow those before baptism, and that they keep following those decrees in order to retain fellowship with us? As brother Anthony Morris III says, “No, that’s not Christian.” Have you not been making such rules and enforcing obedience to them with your interpretations? The result has been the death of faith in many who were faithful. For nothing can die that was not once alive.

    • Topic two: The separating has not occurred yet that Christ spoke of in his drag net parable, his wheat and weeds parable, and his parable about a woman mixing leaven into three lumps of meal. When that separating does occur it will be Christ who will send his angels to separate the acceptable fish from those rejected ones. Since Christ makes that determination himself, he has not anointed you to do that for him. But you presumptuously do while not admitting to it! Preaching and teaching that all Christians outside of Jehovah’s Witnesses are apostate Christians is a dangerous rumor to spread for you and for those you teach to spread it. It is divisive. And it is a lie. Again you have overstepped your position of authority by doing that. Do you judge Christian brothers while knowing that is Christ’s job not yours? See Ezekiel chpt 3. Please stop and think. Do you know for sure Christ will kill all Christians who give their hearts to him if they believe he was not created like his father was not created, or if they believe that hell is literally a place of everlasting torment-an idea stated in Christ’s teachings (whether it was meant as figurative or literal is not my point, neither is who is right and who is wrong the point)? Would you kill them if you were the judge instead of Christ? We will be judged in the manner we judge others. Might what we teach about how Christ judges reveal our personal judgments for and against certain men? The fact is we don’t know precisely how he will judge them. If we did then, and only then, would we be able to accurately judge others, knowing our judgments would be in harmony with Christ’s.



    • Ricardo says:

      We’ve been waiting for your comments, clicks 11. You didn’t disappoint.

    • outandabout says:

      messenger…… nobody can blame you for trying but you’re suggesting to the GB they change not only what they believe but also what they absolutely must believe to stay alive. You may as well be asking a Somali to be Mexican overnight. These guy’s are out of their skulls with delusion. Not only about themselves and their position in life but life itself and are between a rock and a hard place – the rock being their beliefs and the hard place being reality.
      They imagine they’re on the right track for Jehovah but no doubt they privately wring their hands about broken families, blood deaths, suicides and raped children but they’ll be rationalizing all that as minor irritations to be endured as part of the Big Scheme and all they have to do is hang on and stall until Armageddon comes and then they’ll receive their reward and be the Heroes of the Universe.
      They are a tragic joke living in a Marvel comics world, and by extension, so are all their followers. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the power of delusion.

  34. Resister says:

    What exactly made Adam and Eve “sinful” after eating the fruit? This is the crux of the Big 3 – the notion that we are all “sinful” or “imperfect” and therefore need “salvation”, thus enslaving billions under FOG – Fear Obligation Guilt. But how PRECISELY did Adam and Eve become “sinful”??? Did they go on a bank-robbing rampage like Bonny and Clyde? Did they commit adultery? Did they start using cocaine? The biblical definition of sin, according to Watchturd, is “missing the mark of perfection”. WTF is perfection? Who knows?? Apparently, the Jews, Christians, and Muzzies do. To them all, perfection means being without sin. So, Sin is a failure to be Perfect, and Perfection is to be without Sin. Therefore, Sin is a failure to be without Sin, and Perfection means not failing to be Perfect, or, more simply, Perfection means being Perfect. If that’s not a Circular Argument, I don’t know what is. It’s like being arrested for resisting arrest. A logic loop. An endless loop. I hope the Believers are enjoying their Ferris wheel ride. Round and round we go. Doesn’t it get a little dizzying???
    No sir, until I read about Adam and Eve robbing banks, having orgies, and doing crack, I have no reason to believe they’re “imperfect sinners”. I’m a sinner, and I’m pretty good at it. So I guess that makes me a “perfect sinner”. 😀
    As for the whole Human Sacrifice business, what exactly did our “Savior” sacrifice? Isn’t he up in heaven with Dad, as we speak??? Sure he suffered for a bit, but who hasn’t? Lots of people were impaled by the Romans. Lots of people are subjected to atrocities today. Do they all start a new religion? So the J-man died. Wasn’t he resurrected within 3 days? So where’s the “sacrifice”? I don’t believe the Bible’s writers clearly understood the meaning of that word. Suppose the doctor tells Mr. MacTavish, We can save your life, but it will take a sacrifice, we have to amputate your left arm. … OK, do it. … Then, 2 days later, they sew his arm back on. Awesome. Mr. MacTavish gets to live, AND keep both arms. So where’s the “sacrifice”? Sure, he was sans a left arm for 2 days. Big deal. Jesus wasn’t even dead for a full 72 hours. That’s not a sacrifice. That’s a long nap. I mean, some lions sleep longer than that. WTF?
    I love coming here and being a d*ck.

  35. Clicks11, your points are buried in a morass of words
    it’s no wonder they removed you from giving talks.

    • Holy Connoli says:

      E-TED. I was thinking the same thing about Clicks 11. I mean like the GB rreally cares what he has to say and quoting scriptures etc. I am sure they get 100 of those letters and email everyday. Not that I am putting clocks11 down but please realize the GB doesn’t care plus your letter Click11 was over the top in UNCLARITY. It was a rambling verbal
      overuse of words and helter skelter that really doesn’t make much sense. Just remember the GB doesn’t care what you have to say bc they are in charge so that is the way it is. I doubt they will read more than a sentence or 2 or even respond. One of u hundreds maybe 1000’s of letters they get daily.

  36. Doc Obvious says:

    Instead of young men and women finding a job they themselves are good at, Anthony Morris III wants their young men and women to devote their young adulthood in the construction trades for Watchtower.

    I have a few questions for Watchtower. How much are you paying for this construction work? Are you paying the going rate? Do you provide the standard benefits to your construction workers? Do you provide standard disability insurance for your construction workers? Sometimes there are accidents that go on in a construction site.

    Watchtower, you’re telling me that all workers sign a “vow of poverty” and receive no paycheck. Also, you’re telling me there are no benefits to your employees. So, if someone gets injured, do you pay the doctor bills? No. Why not? Its the workers fault for getting injured and not the company. They did not follow the safety guidelines for the particular task.

    So, all this work that goes on in your place is for your benefit only. Therefore, when you go on to sell these properties, you are the one that receives the full profit for other people’s hard work.

    This sounds like a slave labor camp for your people. Why do you treat your people like slaves? Is this the type of thing Jesus would approve of?

    What activities are you paying for with this profit? Oh. You are paying for decades worth of child sexual abuse cases as fulfilling settlements. So, you’re having your people pay the price for your failures. That’s wonderful.

    Watchtower. Why are you walking away? Is it something I said?

    • Holy Connoli says:

      Doc: Many years ago a young brother from my area went to Bethel to work. He was in the painting department. Working around all those fumes and chemicals caused him to break out into regular rashes etc. He started having asthma type symptoms. He went to the doctor and Bethel sent him home back to California with little or no explanation. Nor did they pay for his doctor expenses or follow up. They made some exuse that they are not responsible and that is the chance you take when you come to Bethel. His father an Elder at the time was upset but towed the party line and held it inside. Basically they did not care for him for some basic health issues that happened while working for free.

      That is their policy. You really are a m number at Bethel. Big Corporation.

      • Doc Obvious says:

        You have to take them to court for any medical issues arising from work conditions. Workers compensation for work related injuries need to be pursued.

        When I was there, I was in a construction department in the middle of July. We were tearing off old roofs and replacing with new roofs. The conditions were a disaster. I got burned from the tar so bad that bethel had to move me to a different department. My new clothing for Bethel was destroyed that I needed to replace them every 2 weeks. The tar stuck to everything. My neck had severe burns. The color of my skin changed colors. What a mess!

        After the construction, they put me in another department. Then, they finally let me go after 3 months due to health related issues. It was the best thing that ever happened to me.

        I went to university and got a real job with better benefits and much better pay. I discourage anyone from going to Bethel and pursue higher education. They believe every man should be in Construction. The pay does not cover all the clothing you have to replace. They do not show you pictures of certain departments due to the horrible conditions.

        The worst thing was they moved from Brooklyn and all the work I did there was for not. I was so happy that I did not stay for several years. I would have been sent home with no real life skills.

        • Holy Connoli says:

          doc obvious: Oh your work was not in vain bc it made the buildings they sold for billions of dollars more valuable! It is nothing but a slave house in Bethel. If you are at Bethel for many years you have a very good chance of becoming JUST WEIRD. I knew several Bethel workers who had been there since they were young men and after 10-20 years they became weird. That is the best way to put it. They did not know how to socialize in Society or be “normal” with other people.My friend who left Bethel after being sick is still a JW. His Elder father at the time would never sue the WT bc that would not be right and he was PO at the time and it would look very bad if someone is suing the WT and a JW. I never heard of that happening until maybe later if they were no longer a JW.

    • Big B says:

      @ Doc Obvious;

      That’s why I believe they (Watchtower, Jehovah’s Witnesses,, etc.) are, without a doubt, the “evil slave” personified. Free slave labor, not only in the construction trades but in their publishing departments.

      As “volunteer labor” for a non taxed, charitable organization they do not pay taxes of any kind nor does the Watchtower pay into the Social Security system. When they have used up their skills and talents then the Watchtower lets these “volunteers” go with a fond farewell to be foisted on the local congregations and community. Not so much as even a gold retirement watch. This is absolutely the most shameful example of exploitation as I have ever seen. Absolutely no retirement to look forward to as the volunteers have not contributed a dime into the system.

      However, at each district or zone convention, a meeting is held during the lunchtime break. During that time the Watchtower again touts the advantages of the privilege of serving at Bethel, only single men between 18 and 35 need apply. “Three hots and a cot”, best life ever; that is if prison life appeals to you!

  37. Geoff says:

    Hi. I see they are putting a bishop in prison for covering up child abuse in Australia. When will they go after the GB? Let’s hope it is soon.
    The org can’t say it is the world turning against Jehovah’s people as it started with the Catholic Church.

    • Grant says:

      I also see they have child protection policy on their web site now. It’s a lie in paragraph 5. Elders are not allowed to report it. The proof is worldwide and in Ireland elders have been removed for reporting child abusers. The elders book also contradicts the policy as to what elders are supposed to do.

  38. Markie says:

    I think that if anybody wants to go to Bethel, they are in fact just lazy and stupid and want to be taken care of. Or they are just gay and want to be around a bunch of young guys. And I do agree that they use cheap labor and really don’t care about the young kids if they get hurt etc. But, I don’t think the GB is getting anything out of it other then a nice apartment and the ability to fly around like a rock star. I don’t think any of them are living in expensive homes, stock piling money or driving around in expensive cars. I do believe that they are not individually getting rich of the sell off etc…..I think they are just too stupid and made some pretty bad decisions.

    • outandabout says:

      I agree with most of what you say, Markie. Anybody who goes to Bethel believes a bunch of lies and so they imagine going to Bethel is a fine and noble thing to do to put them in good standing with somebody’s god. Such is the power of delusion and if they were born into the faith they are victims of abuse and if they entered the faith on their own free will, they only have themselves to blame.
      As for the GB, I too don’t imagine they’re gaining personal wealth. I see their job as being the keepers of the faith at all costs. If WT fails, they have failed Jehovah and to them there is absolutely nothing worse than that. They are human also and so there will be ego’s around their decision making for sure, – ‘we are so important and right that Jehovah has instructed us to build bigger and more expensive headquarters than those false religions’, And imagine being them walking around Warwick surrounded by sickening sycophants falling at their feet at every turn. To those wretchedly deluded sycophants, the GB are the closest anybody on earth can get to God, so what can we expect. And when they go to conventions, they are as you say – rock stars. How can any human being remain humble under those conditions especially when they already firmly believe they are the highest power on Earth in waiting.
      If we want to rid the world of these abusive cults, we need to get rid of the source but time will catch up with them anyway. This whole episode will one day be a footnote in history that future generations can read about and say “gosh, did we really believe that?” They’ll look back on us the way we look back on the fumbling steps of our ignorant forebears today.

      • Ricardo says:

        @outie, in my judicial hearing the elders said about Bro Lett: He is not just going to rule over the earth, he is going to rule the universe. And do you know the only thing stopping him now? His flesh. He is a glorious one and you have spoken against him.

        I have never seen such devotion (hero worship) directed to a brother before. I felt sick.

        I think receiving such worship from every Witness they meet turns the GB members into narcissists.

        • outandabout says:

          yes, I remember you writing that about Lett, Ricardo. Of course this happens in all versions of faith – the Pope for example.
          I know it’s easy for me to say but you must try and forget WT. It’s made you unhappy, right. I have a friend who woke up to the WT and left but still spent four yrs looking over his shoulder for Armageddon. Such is the power of childhood indoctrination. Think about this though – does a person of a different faith stand in their church and think to themselves “yeah, I know the Witnesses are right, but, y’know, I really like these stained glass windows in here and most of my friends are here as well and I know I’m gonna die because I’m not a Witness, but I still think I’ll stay here”? Nobody does that, right? As far as these people are concerned they are in the one true church because their church leaders are standing up there reading scripture to them that PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that their church is the one true church and it’s the other churches who’s followers will die or go to hell or whatever. And everyone believes it because it’s in the bible and they’re being told this by someone who, in their eyes, are closer to god than they are. Sound familiar?
          What’s that line from Buffalo Springfield? – ‘Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong’. How can every version of the bible be the one true version. Best avoid them all and just be the best you can and let your conscience be your guide. If this god of yours is only a fraction as benevolent as claimed, you’ll have absolutely nothing to worry about.
          And speaking of the Pope – nothing say’s “I trust you God” more than three inches of bulletproof glass, or, a lightning rod on a church. These are clues not to be ignored.

  39. Resister says:

    Watchturkey is a Christian organization, no? So how come half of what they teach is based on the OLD Testament??? What’s all the fuss about all the Hebrew prophets? Why the obsession with ancient Jewish ‘history’ and religious customs and rites??? Right down to the color of the fringes on the High Priest’s robes. What’s going on?
    Seriously. What’s going on?

    • Big B says:

      I believe it’s part and parcel of the Adventist mindset, Resister.

      Watchtower has a problem similar to the Seventh Day Adventist movement which still holds fast to the Law of Moses, especially the sabbath restrictions, even though Christ’s death was supposed to remove and replace the Law with the “new covenant”. They haven’t a clue and neither do Jehovah’s Witnesses! Why? Because they are cut from the same cloth, the Adventist Millerite movement.

      Thus Watchtower’s inane ideas of using the Hebrew Scriptures to run the Christian congregation; especially the two witness rule applied to child molestation cases. What nonsense! The Society is quite adamant in this seeing that this perversion is only treated as a “sin” and not as a criminal act. Thus the reason for handling the pedophilia from within instead of allowing the authorities to investigate.

      By allowing the reporting of sexual abuse in the congregation, the Society would find out through police investigation if the accused was in fact guilty by letting the courts do their job. This would solve many problems for the Watchtower. First, it would show everyone that sexual abuse is not tolerated and offenders will be investigated. Second, with the authorities involved everyone would know if the one charged is guilty or not. Third, the offender would be incarcerated with his name, picture and address, placed in the national register of Pedophiles. Finally, everyone in the congregation, as well as the community, would be safer knowing just who the wolves are and avoiding them. With proper investigation the facts would be discovered and the offender would be disfellowshipped if found guilty in a court of law. As a part of his reinstatement into the congregation, the offender would have to undergo psychiatric evaluation on a regular basis. No more “I’m all better now”, excuses or fake shows of piety.

      However, the Watchtower won’t do any of the above as they are to stubborn and ignorant to change. Better to run the Christian congregation by the outdated and superceeded Mosiac Law than to look to the Christian Scriptures and Caesar’s Laws for guidance.

      • outandabout says:

        Is not the old Testament Gods word nevertheless, Big B? Would god ever get something wrong and have to re-do it at a later date? That’s not possible, right? because he knows the past present and future because those are things he designed perfectly all at one sitting, apparently. So he made mistakes on purpose?

        • Big B says:

          Absolutely correct outandabout;

          However, the Christian congregation, which is made up of every tribe, nation and people cannot be expected to follow the Mosiac Law. The Law was a tutor for the Jews only; leading them to their Messiah. The gentiles were never under the Law covenant and had no use for a Messiah. The concept of “original sin” had no bearing in their mythology. “Sin”, in and of itself, is strictly a Judeao Christian concept and as such does not resonate in any philosophy or mythology of Gentile peoples.

          The new covenant replaces the Law that nobody imperfect could possibly follow, thank God! That it took better than 40 days for Moses to gather the Law, which he broke the first set, and then stayed for another long period of time leads me to believe that this Law was truly a Mosiac Law authored by Moses; all by himself. Same with the Pentateuch and all the pre Abrahamic characters all nonsense and filler.

          I don’t know if God sees into the future or has the ability to travel there. If he could have seen into the future would he not have been able to stymie Satan proactively rather than reactionary?
          But all of this is supposition based on what we “think” we know about God.

          Does he exist at all or is this another mythology that
          will run it’s course to be replaced by another faith in the distant future? Maybe, God is only as perfect as we humans try to make him. How much of the Bible are we to believe as being factual and how much of the narrative are just campfire tales later written down by Moses as a pseudo history for the wandering Israelites? Are the writings in the O.T. really God’s word or rather Moses’ word and the other writers words with credit given to a divine being? I personally believe it is the latter.

          Big B

  40. Resister says:

    😀 Here’s something JWs and ex-JWs can relate to –