The Jehovah’s Witnesses have come under heavy criticism in recent years for their shunning policy. For those unfamiliar, the religion dictates that all baptised members who either resign from the religion, or who are thrown out for some perceived violation of its rules, must be complexly shunned by all Witness family and friends.
This edict extends to family members as well; sons are expected to shun fathers, mothers expected to shun daughters, and so forth. Refusal can, in the worst instances, cause the offender to also be shunned. Because Witnesses are very insular, discouraged from forming close friendships with those outside the faith, it often means that a shunned one literally loses everyone they have ever known and loved.
For more details see this recent BBC expose on the matter, which features former Jehovah’s Witnesses discussing the pain and suffering this policy has caused them.
The policy is taken so seriously, and is so strictly enforced, that the Watchtower Organisation (the group which controls the worldwide religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses), make the policy a keynote teaching point at its 2016 worldwide conventions. During this event, which all Witnesses were required to attend, an extended video series was shown instructing Witnesses on how to shun family members. Even picking up the phone when a shunned member called was declared to be a grave error. We covered this controversial event in a previous article.
Now, a heartbreaking video has emerged online showing how far reaching and deeply ingrained this shunning policy is; a video showing Jehovah’s Witnesses clapping in applause as a little girl announces she is shunning her own sister.
Little Melody, and the sister she doesn’t have.
The incident appears to take place at one of this years Watchtower conventions. The video was posted on youtube by the girls parents, apprently eager to share with the world how they had trained one of their children to pretend her sister didn’t exist purely on the basis of religious dogma.
The video was comment-protected once viewers began expressing concern and displeasure at what they saw, but at the time of writing the video itself is still live and can be viewed below on the family’s youtube page. (EDIT 11/09/2017 – The video has been removed, but we have linked to an alternate site which has a copy)
Melody’s interview @ the Regional Convention 2017 _Don’t Give Up_ от John Cedars на Rutube.
It shows a little girl called Melody. She is ten years old, and was apparently baptised when she was 9. This means that Melody is now committed to the religion for life, and will be shunned if she ever leaves, or “unrepentantly” breaks any of its vast array of detailed rules.
During the interview, Melody explains that she has a sister who was “disfellowshipped,” which is the Witness term for one who is excommunicated; someone who was thrown out of the faith rather than leaving of their own accord. We are not told the reason for the disfellowshipping, but one can be subjected to it for a wide range of reasons such as pre-marital sex, celebrating Christmas or birthdays, voting, taking a blood transfusion, joining the military, or simply questioning any of the doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Melody states that her sister was trying to contact her, and asking her to stay in contact despite Watchtower decreeing that she be shunned. Remember, Melody’s sister has probably lost all her family and friends at this point; everyone she ever knew and loved.
Melody admits that she misses and loves her sister, but states that she was afraid that if she didn’t cut her sister off completely, she might be tempted to keep some form of relationship going. Thus, she has decided to shun her completely, as Watchtower demands. She claims that this was to protect her relationship with Jehovah.
The audience of Jehovah’s Witnesses watching this announcement applaud.
Child Indoctrination: A very real tragedy.
To those who are not familiar with Jehovah’s Witnesses, or other high control religious or political groups, it may seem incomprehensible that a little girl could behave this way about her own sister, or that those in the room would react with applause and not horrified astonishment.
But the sad fact is that such indoctrination is all too common, and all too easy to achieve, especially in the kind of high control environment that Watchtower constructs around its followers; controlling the information they are allowed to read, the people they are allowed to speak with, and sadly, which family members they are allowed to see.
Watchtower, which astonishingly is a registered charity in many countries despite enforcing such draconian and inhumane laws upon its followers, often attempts to mislead the general public about shunning. Sometimes they pretend that the policy is not strictly enforced, or give the impression that it does not exist at all.
Sadly, this video provides yet more proof that the shunning policy is real, and that families and friends are being broken up as a result. I hope that little Melody is able to break free of her chains one day, and be re-united with the sister who loves her.
The Bible
The Bible
The Bible’s full of Libel
The Hebrews were the master race
Jehovah lives up there in space
The world is full of bloody sinners
And christians are the only winners
Jesus walked upon the waters
Lot had sex with his two daughters
Abraham married his half-sister
Good Lord, what a twisted mister!
Everybody marrying their cousins
Creating hillbillies by the dozens
FOG is Fear-Obligation-Guilt
Obey right now or blood gets spilt
FEAR is False Evidence Appearing Real
That’s how your mind they try to steal
Some say “Armageddon”, others tell you “Hell”
Yeah the Bible’s full of Libel, and something else as well
PS Great article, CF. Thanx again.
Sad to see how WT is locking them in at a younger & younger age. Whatever happened to the ol’ “Jesus was 30 when he was baptized – they should be at an age of understanding before they take such an important step” rationale? Baptized at NINE??? WOW. At that age, I had just barely learned to ride a bike! WTF??? Why don’t they just skip the useless formalities & start baptizing them at birth, like the catholics & everyone else? This is a complete sham!…..& of course a sign of desperation on the part of WT – they must be having trouble recruiting new members & keeping old ones – so at least there’s an up side to this story.
Another shocking example of the poisoning of minds and ruining of lives. Complete moral bankruptcy.
I think this is the sickest thing i have ever seen at a convention thats why i will never attend another.
When I read, hear or think about the control Jw.orgy has on people….It makes me soo angry! You are right Twsted sis…next they will have a liason committee come to hosp. where a sis is giving birth, just like they do with the blood issue…they will take the baby first, proceed to paint it blue and stamp it in the forehead…with the “mark of wyld beast”…JW.Org! Parents are mindlessly handing their childern to the” sacred cow image”… tossing their kids in the fire that burns in her bosom! Good Lord!!! Where is the difference? When and how much longer will people allow this corrupt religion do this to their families and childern…Where is their respect for the family arrangement? They complain about being victims of “hate speech”, I wish for them a lot more than just…”speech”! Good poem Twsted sis…Poisioning minds, ruining lives, moral bankruptcy…you are right Max K…..and they have their veg cart stocked with…ask us about how to have a happy family life! ? CHOKE!!!!! BARF!!!! Disgusting! Thanx Covert, keep smokin these suckers out! One day they will have to answer!
This is an example of how young minds are insidiously infected so as to become numb to use of logic or analysis of what the Watchtower writes and speaks as dogma examining it for sanity, the “love/grace/truth” test of scripture and to compare to previous “prophecies”[1]. For many whom choose to exit of their own accord, or fade, it is a matter of building a network of replacement friends before exiting. For those ejected suddenly whether due to disciplinary violation of morality codes or insubordination to the hierarchy, it’s a cold splash of urinal water. There will be a period of grieving for your loss, then comes a pivotal moment when you choose to “move on” in the same vein as those who self-determinedly exited. Find a “new you,” with new friends, replacement family [sometimes when a total family is not JW this works, and even if it seems every member in your immediate vicinity is a JW, work the ancestry tree until you find one who is not and bond], and sometimes new coworkers. Often I read someone express regret that they gave up college, career and other self-defining pursuits to be JW, but no matter your age, it is never too late to pickup the pieces and find a “renewed you” or a “restored you”. It is a painful process to reinvent yourself but humans are resilient and self-healing.
[1] “Prophecy” according to Watchtower’s previous statements in writing, prophets were “teachers” not all were foretellers but “forthwright” in bringing God’s message. So, on that basis [ignoring that huge pile of dusty dates under the carpet] can one find honesty in previous statements on a scriptural viewpoint–consistency and not reversals of opinion?
and they totally ignore what Deut. 18 says that if the things a prophet says don’t come to pass you have nothing to fear from him (because he didn’t get the info from God).
Exactly Jim! My hubby and daughter just read that a short time ago, I thought as you said here!!!
I mostly agree with the article EXCEPT, you won’t be disfellowship just for questioning any docrine.
Hi, Victor. Okay, you question doctrine,but what happens if you don’t accept the answer given by WT?
Depends.. I questioned a member of the GB that came to the congregation I used to belong to about sexual predators in the organization. By the way, I did it in full view of everyone. Obviously some elders approached me, even went to my home, where I continued with my line of argument which hey obviously couldn’t deny. Although I’m not active anymore, my whole family, including my wife who still are, have continued their relationship with me as normal.
It depends on the question and which doctrine. Here’s one “Do you accept the governing bodies authority as the faithful and discreet slave?” You answer “NO”. What do you think the outcome is Victor?
I said this to D.H Splane in his face when I spoke with him about sexual predators in the congregation and the WT response to it. Obviously I was talked to and the elders tried to convince me otherwise. But, when I came back at them with a solid argument, theyh left it at that. I was not DF. Obviously, I was respectful throughout the whole situation, not raising my voice or doing such things. I just asked and argue a point with logic.
Hi Victor. I’m curious, what was Splane’s reaction? Did he give any comment?
Hi Victor.
Thanks for the comment.
For clarity I probably should have written “continually questioning.” You’re correct, the occasional question won’t get you DF’d especially if you accept the answer without question. The stance on apostasy states that if a person continues believing other doctrine, despite being “adjusted,” they are an apostate. So if you continually question any aspect of doctrine in a meaningful way, you’re at risk. You certainly can’t publicly refute any aspect of doctrine and hope to remain unscathed.
I have a friend who believes that WT is Jehovah’s organization but that it has become sidetracked. He strongly believes this and shared this thought with several other brothers. The elders in the congregation did not sit with him to go through his doubts or concerns, rather they sat with him and disfellowshipped him for apostasy. He does not know how he can be apostate if he believes WT is God’s organization. How does he return? So he appealled the decision, but the appeal committee upheld the first committee’s decision. So he appealed to the branch (the secret step the elders don’t want people to know) but the appeal committee said their decision was final. So he has written to the branch anyway. He was announced as no longer being a Jehovah’s Witness about three weeks ago.
Most of the congregation did not know what that meant, so they continued talking to him. So last night the elders gave a local needs talk about the proper way of treating disfellowshipped brothers. After the meeting a large group of brothers went to a coffee shop with the disfellowshipped brother to enjoy company with him.
Not all witnesses agree or practise the shunning rule. However, they are very careful, cos the bullies who are elders know that submission is the most important thing in the congregation.
Apostate is someone who actively goes against bible teachings or Jehovah himself. When I spoke with GB member Splain, I told him that I feared being labeled an apostate for not agreeing, not only with his point of view, but also that of the WT when it came to child abuse and rape. He was the one who told me the words I posted on my first sentence. I spoke with him for about 5 min in full view of the congregation I used to go, which were waiting to meet him after a discourse he had just given.
@Victor, Apostate in the elders’ book is defined as anyone deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Thus, because my friend was teaching that Jehovah’s organization has gone astray, which is not taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses, he was deemed an apostate and disfellowshipped.
In your case, you have a personal opinion which you are not, I assume, spreading around to others. If you begin to tell multiple brothers your thoughts, hoping to sway them, you may be meeting up with the elders for a special meeting.
They did the same thing to my Father-in-Law .
An apostate as defined in the dictionary is someone who has left a particular faith or political belief behind. Says nothing about going against bible teachings. GB D Splain member should have been told this, as you should research what the word apostate truly means.
I questioned the elders once. I was disfellowhipped immediately. My circumstances were different, while the elders loved me, one of the elders I was talking to was the father of my best friend (the only person I studied with til she was baptized) so it may have hit too close to home. He made sure I was unable to contact her immediately after I told him I didnt think we had the “truth” and I never got to say goodbye to her.
Victor you will if you don’t accept the answer given by the Watchtower, and then go and speak of it. People have been disfellowshiped for challenging the Watchtower on the 607BC date!!
I had been an active witness for 25 years serving in a congregation as well as my father before me. I can honestly say I have never seen a case of someone being disfellowship for challenging the 607BC date. As an active witness I used to be very vocal of things I didn’t agree, but used to back it up either biblically or with solid historical facts. In many occasions I found myself in committee having to defend myself over a comment I had given. I found out it was mostly due to the lack of education of particular elders and not really the organization itself. In some instances I appealed to the district overseer when I knew the elders were wrong, and in every case I was cleared. For the record, I’m no longer an active member, I just speak from my own experience when I was one.
@Victor, I don’t know how you have not been disfellowshipped, but well done! Keep up the faith. Speak out when you hear nonsense.
Can I enquire why you are no longer an active member? Congregations need guys like you. You need to get active again and back into it. What’s going on?
Victor –
I challenged the 607 date. I wrote down all my research on the matter and posted it to the COBE. I requested that after 30 years in the org, they may have the decency to reply to me … I’m still waiting. I have since disassociated myself!
I believe there have been cases of disfellowshipping for contradiction of 607, Carl Jonsson is renowned for such.
Hi Victor. I haven’t been df’d as far as I know, but I have been shunned and had a letter stuffed in my door jam basically calling me apostate. Why? because I spoke out against the child abuse.
Uh…could those letters be referred to…”hate speech”? Just a passin thought…harrassing a person for telling the “Truth about the Truth”….Be strong…you did the right thing. You and all who do. I would save them…and stuff them down their holey drain covers! But…guess one has to get past ST. Peter at the “Golden Gate”! ;). Since Lloyd did…they may up security…guess me trying to get thru with my zebra mussel infested pontoon boat to float in their pond and corrode their expensive pumps may be a bit conspicuios…but thank goodness for the Canada geese…not affected by man made securities…Wah Wah Wah!!!! ;)
Totally evil leadership.I feel sorry for anyone mindless enough to still be going along with this inhumane religion.
What!!??…..you don’t agree with them creating the perfect storm for child rape, the killing of followers because of a faulty blood policy which they can’t and won’t change because of money, and the intentional breaking up of families? You’re obviously a follower of Satan.
Speaking of disfellowshipping, here’s something u can get DF’d for – gambling. Here’s something u can’t get DF’d for – playing the Stock Market. So WTF is the difference??? I once dabbled in playing the ponies. U can do a lot of research – there r reports telling u about the horse’s track record, under what conditions it performs best, info about the jockey, trainer, etc. At least in horse betting, it’s not entirely up to pure chance. So when u buy stock in a company, u research its track record, info about the CEO, market trends, etc. Yet, there are still many variables not in ur control, like economic shifts, demand/supply variations, competition, changes of ownership/management, etc, in other words, CHANCE elements which NO ONE has control over. Sounds a lot like…..GAMBLING!!! One can say, “Well, I invest in stable, proven companies. There is very little risk, & so I don’t make that much anyway.” OK then, so it must be alright to bet on a horse that almost always wins, like Secretariat. The risk is very low, & u won’t make much due to the low odds anyway. Yet, investing in Ace Widget Corporation is acceptable, but betting on Secretariat will get u DF’d. I know I’m saying this a lot, but … WTF??? I once got “disciplined” for buying a $5 Scratch & Win card at the corner store. Elder Schmelder just happened to be in line behind me in line & witnessed the Criminal Act. The elders had a Pow-Wow with me after the meeting, with a promise to provide me with some WT literature on the subject, which I never got (thankfully — not that I would’ve read it anyway LOL). Yet, many of the Holier-Than-Thou “friends” play with thousands & thousands of $$$, gambling on stocks. They shouldn’t call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses. They should call themselves The Happy Hypocrites. Or The Freaky Pharisees. This so-called “religion” is a total farce!
It’s actually a shame I never received that literature the Schmelders promised me. I could’ve used the extra toilet paper.
Uh…:(. slip sliddin awey…better to use leaves…just not “itchy an scratchy”….kind…;)
Right on, twistedsister69! I lost about $2,000.00 in the stock market this year when I sold a ‘dead’ stock. However, I made about $1,200.00 gambling at Seneca Niagara Casino last week. It’s great to be alive!
So sad!!
*** g80 8/10 p. 28 La chasse et la pêche à l’ancienne ***
Pour attraper les coqs sauvages, nous mettions un coq apprivoisé dans un enclos camouflé avec des branchages et du feuillage. Le chasseur imitait alors le cocorico, et notre coq lui répondait. Les autres coqs du voisinage considéraient une telle réponse comme un défi et accouraient lui donner une leçon. Une fois qu’ils avaient pénétré dans l’enclos, ils étaient à nous.
Bonjour Jado! On peut savoir où tu veux en venir ?
J’ai déjà laissé un commentaire en fr sur cette publication (je pensais que cest à toi que je répondais avant de le voir affiché en bas comme commentaire dans le fil)
Je voulais direque si ces peuples primitifs pouvaient attraper les coqs en utilisant un “coq apprivoisé”, chez les humains aussi, il y aurait un peuple d’intelligence supérieure qui attraperait des peuples is sur la terre que je compare aux coqs sauvages (Ces peuples Jésus les a camparés aux moutons et chevres).
Tu as lit le livres “Untrodden field of Anthropology par un chirurgien Francais Jacobus X. Il faut lire ce livre pour comprendre ce que je veux dire. Ces jours les france était un empire mais les choses on changé. L’Europe pleure ses enfants sur le meme pied d’égalité que ceux qu’elle considérait jadis “peuples semi-civilisés”.
Ces Témoins de Jéhovah chez nous sont des “coqs apprivois
*** g80 7/8 p. 28 Hunting and Fishing—the Ancient Way ***
To catch wild chickens, we would put a tame cock in a corral camouflaged with twigs and leaves. The hunter imitated the crow of a cock, and our tame rooster would answer. His answer would be taken as a challenge to the nearby wild cocks, who would come running, looking for a fight. Once inside the corral, they were ours.
At times, the hunter had to be careful. We were not the only jungle residents looking for dinner. For example, sometimes we would hear a crowing sound, just like a wild cock. But in fact it would be a black snake trying to lure the cock for his meal. And he did not take kindly to humans interfering with his hunting.
@Jado, you have a wicked sense of humour. I keep telling you to keep away from jw.org, it has a bad effect on you, but you just can’t help yourself, can you?
I downloaded the Shepherd the Flock book from the internet, but could not find that celebrating birthdays was a reason for disfellowshipping. My mother says she doesn’t know anyone who has been disfellowshipped for celebrating birthdays. In the post above it says that celebrating Christmas or birthdays is a reason for disfellowshipping. Can anyone confirm this? Can you tell me which point from the Shepherd book covers this?
I have celebrated each of my son’s eleven birthdays. I guess I should really go to the elders and confess my sins, shouldn’t I? Only thing is, how to be repentant when I can’t understand what is wrong with celebrating birthdays?
@Ricardo Try this link from JW Facts.com. It seems you won’t get DF’d for birthdays, but you will for Christmas. i hope this helps.
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/disfellowship-shunning.php#reasons
Thanks Will. So I don’t need to go to the elders to confess anything? So I’m not in threat of getting DF’d? That’s a relief.
Covert Fade, I think you need to change that sentence in your article.
@ricardo If they find out, you may not be df’d, but they will come after you.
@Will, they are always coming after me, the absolute mongrels. I would love it if they were coming after me to give me some commendation for a faithful course, but that is obviously not in their elders manual. These bullies can only criticise, criticise and then criticise some more. I know the scripture says to reprove, reprimand and exhort, but that was to be balanced with Christian love and decency. Did not Jesus himself say to come to him and be refreshed because his load is kindly and yoke is light?
Are we surprised that our abusive organization is lead by abusive men, looking for any opportunity to abuse the rank and file? The morons. Don’t they realize that if they gave commendation and praise, then the lowly sheep would be reluctant to rebel? But because the elders only know how to beat into submission, they produce sheep like myself. And there are many of us. And we are grouping together and growing teeth.
@ricardo @covert Fade
Thanks for the clarification. In other words, the elders can do whatever they want under the heading of “brazen conduct.” Out 3 years a loving it!!!
Hi guys. My understanding is that the “brazen/loose conduct” category has been used to DF those openly celebrating birthdays in the past. I’ve met exJW’s who say this was done to them. Looks like it might be a grey area?
The elders book defines “brazen conduct” as “acts that reflect an attitude that betrays disrespect, disregard, or even contempt for divine standards, laws, and authority.”
Quite a long bow to connect that with personal birthday celebrations, or going to someone else’s birthday, but then again the elders are a law unto themselves. Anything is possible with them.
I’m still not sure whether I should confess my sin of celebrating my son’s birthday for the past 11 years or not. But I told him that at 12 we don’t need a birthday cake anymore because he is a big boy already, so I guess that brazen loose conduct of having a birthday cake has come to an end anyway.
In essenace “brazen conduct’ is a blank cheque for anything and everything elders need it to be. So if you celebrate birthdays, then they tell you not to, and you keep doing it, you’re ignoring divine authority and can be booted. “Brazen conduct” was one of the things that made me realise the org was utterly pharisaical in nature, and could demand control over anything and everything no matter what the scriptures might say on the matter.
By the way, why would you confess anything to elders if you didn’t think it was a sin?
In fact, why confess anything to them at all? Your personal life is none of their business, surely?
@Covert,
My cynical self was coming to the fore there. If I wanted my life to be messed up further and my case to be dealt with in an inept and incompetent manner, and what is left of my family to be destroyed, then I would call the elders quick smart. Those Keystone cops are guaranteed to create havoc, lie their heads off, blame the victim, say I’m looking at things as a physical man rather than a spiritual one, tell me to get over it and call me bitter.
Ah, okay. Understood. :)
The Correspondence Guidelines (p. 29), says: “An individual would not normally be disfellowshipped for celebrating a birthday. However, if someone persists in strongly advocating the celebrating of birthdays or actively solicits birthday associated business, thus openly encouraging such celebrations and hence creating division, disfellowshipping may be in order.”
I have completely lost my family 14 years ago by shunning and I don’t even know where they are and if they are alive. It’s incredible how things are barely changed after many years since the magnitude of poison that is till inoculated within these young minds. Even posted on youtube as a “JW Poster Girl” of the month!
Why does this manipulation of Melody seem like rape to me? I am not shocked anymore by the evil cult but I feel such a sense of sadness and loss for Melody. Her mother would have been in raptures when they got the call from some higher up inviting them to tell their experience. All the excitement of getting a new dress and shoes and all that grooming . To be sacrificed at an assembly in front of hundreds of approving perverts. All applauding her noble act of killing her flesh and blood sister in public. What 10 year old could say no to that ? All that adoration and made to feel special and singled out bythe god of the universe. It is so perverse that the only conclusion I can come to is that it is rape on some level I don’t have words for . Please god let it stop just stop just stop if not you Dear lawyers just stop this nasty cult and end its charitable status . Will someone who has clout not step up and end this craziness? No cheers today I feel bereft for all the crucified sheep on the alter of family killing watchtower. Ruthlee
Feel as you say you do Ruthlee….rape of ones mind! Sad and disgusting,and they applaud?
C’est écoeurant que la petite Melody soit ainsi exploitée et instrumentalisée pour servir d’exemple “encourageant”pour les autres mômes de son âge qui ne souhaitent que être mieux perçues par les adultes qui les entourent,mais qui en fait ont déjà subi un lavage de cerveau par cette cruelle organisation.
Ma sœur est excommuniée et nous avons gardé une très bonne relation avec elle. Personne ne peut m’empêcher d’être proche de ma sœur! Par ailleurs, quand les anciens m’ont demandé de soumettre une copie de ma carte d’instructions médicales ( pas de sang) je leur ai dit que je n’accepte plus la façon dont l’organisation explique cette interdiction biblique de pas manger de sang et par conséquent je ne signe plus cette carte depuis près de 10 ans. Aucune conséquence malheureuse jusqu’à date, même pas une conversation dans la chambre arrière de la salle du royaume.
Bien pour vous. Je souhaite que ma famille jw soit plus comme vous
The claim is that Jesus is head of the congregation. At Matt. 18 where Jesus instructed how to handle problems between believers and one ends up removed from the congregation (disfellowshipped) his next instruction was to treat them as a tax collector or person of the nation. The first century christians did not shun tax collectors or persons of the nations. Since those were Christ instructions and Jehovah’s witnesses do not follow his instructions, then that must mean that Christ is not the head of their congregation. So what Jehovah’s Witnesses have to decide is if they are going to follow Christ as their head or a group of men who contradict Christ?
@VictorE, what do you mean when you say first century christians did not shun tax collectors or persons of the nations? It is in the Bible itself where Jesus was insulted by the Pharisees for eating with the tax collectors (Matt 9:11) and in John 4:9 we see Jews had no dealings with Samaritans (or any other nationality, actually, thus the questions about who really is our neighbour). The Jews ignored these ones. Tax collectors were hated people, looked upon as agents of Rome.
Although I in no way believe that Jesus is head of the Watchtower organization, you must at least get the facts right in your assertions if you are planning to use this reasoning to debunk the shunning arrangement..
And yet Ricardo, an immoral Samaritan woman was actually the first person Jesus directly told that he was the Messiah.
@opened eyes,
Jesus loves everybody, even me. But in his conversation with the Jews, he was referring to their prejudices. I believe you knew that already.
Eyes opened, how come you are involved with this site when you don’t get involved with the organization anymore? Doesn’t it cause you anguish to be reminded of all the silliness?
Hi Ricardo, I’m a little confused by your question to me about why I’m on this site…I am glad to have the opportunity to express myself without fear. Don’t we find that to be refreshing?
Regards
@Eyes opened,
Yes, I realize how liberating it is to be able to express oneself here without getting counselled as being bitter and a trouble maker.
I am surprised that you choose to be reminded of the ridiculousness of the organization by following this site. I thought you would be so sick to the bottom of your stomach you would want to forget all reference to the witnesses.
Not that I don’t want you to comment, no, no no. The more the merrier on this site. Share in exposing the farce called Watchtower by all means.
@Ricardo, I am afraid you are wrong! Jesus is the head of the Watchtower in quality of the “a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is Abaddon [meaning “Destruction”], but in Greek he has the name Apollyon [meaning “Destroyer”].”
Are you still afraid of jw.org , if not verify that from this link: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000065?q=%22Abaddon+or+Apollyon%22&p=par
We should expect “the angel of the abyss” to split families! They are doing what they know and understand.
Who were the “Samaritans”? (Deuteronomy 23:1-3) . . .“No man who has been castrated by having his testicles crushed or who has had his male organ cut off may come into the congregation of Jehovah. 2 “No illegitimate son may come into the congregation of Jehovah. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may come into the congregation of Jehovah. 3 “No Amʹmon·ite or Moʹab·ite may come into the congregation of Jehovah. Even to the tenth generation, none of their descendants may ever come into the congregation of Jehovah,
How so called “civilized people” are discussing nonsense about laws/customs of the middle age origin? These nonsense are from “primitive people” (Jesus and Paul) and discussing them is a waste of time!
@Ricardo, I thought we were talking about the extreme hateful shunning as talked about in this article. You are right, they didn’t associate with tax collectors and people of the nations, but they wouldn’t treat them with the extreme shunning being discussed here. They had to talk to tax collectors and preach to people of the nations. My point was that Watchtower does not obey Christ. Compare how the Amish practice shunning and how it is different than the extreme Jehovah’s Witnesses.
@VictorE,
Yes, with that clarification I can see your point. Yes, there does seem to be a discrepency there. As you say, the Jews did talk to the tax collectors and people of the nations. It seems that the organization has gone to extremes.
Jehovah’s witlesses are essentially a mob of socially inept individuals who have created their own clique where they can feel comfortable & safe. Then, in order to insulate themselves from everyone else, they build walls around themselves that would be the envy of Donald Trump. “The Great Wall of Watchtower”. LOL These invisible walls are like a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card. “Hey Buddy, these borders define my No-Fly Zone. No non-JW gets in here. I don’t have to deal with you ‘worldly’ people or any of your drama. I have immunity, you know, like on ‘Survivor’. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Screw you anyway. You’re all just gonna die at Armageddon. I don’t EVER have to deal with you! I’M a card-carrying Jehovah’s Witness. Ha ha ha ha ha ha!”
“For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones.” Romans 16:18. Sound like anyone we know? Unsuspecting ones, perhaps a 10 yr. old girl and her family? As Ruthlee brought out all excited about the privilege and the new clothes and the praise and being made to feel so special. And yet actually fulfilling the prophesy in Timothy about “no natural affection “. Fervently going forth preaching the end of this system of things as if to say…yes bring Armageddon soon and destroy my family members, I can’t wait to be in paradise without my parents or siblings or whoever. The act of shunning as done by the Watchtower organization is far removed from how the scriptures actually present it and even who would be shunned. But Watchtower has to take the stand they do for self preservation or as Romans puts it because of their own appetites…for power control, authority, influence and to try to keep the money coming in. This unnatural breaking of families is sad, so sad. And how many who engage in this kind of hateful act really understand the regret that may one day hit them so hard and from which there is no recovery? All the while getting that pat on back and praise and being lied to that this is for God and Christ.
Is the GB able to get peaceful sleep??? Do they need medication to cope with the knowledge of the harm they cause and even the bloodguilt they are responsible for??? Are they misguided or are they really that devious. It is hard for me to imagine people willingly being so hateful and uncaring and yet I also can’t imagine being that delusional. If only the governments will see the need to step up. No doubt it’s a fine line when determining how far religious freedom should go. The Watchtower organization is not about freedom or choice.
Sleep well my brothers and pop your pills for tomorrow is another day to ruin more lives.
Regards
PS Anyone see the video of the 8 (?) yr. old boy being trained by ISIS who was handed a gun and then proceeded to kill a man? Anyone else see the similarities here?
I made the translation to portuguese:
http://desperta.weebly.com/notiacutecias/video-mostra-testemunhas-de-jeova-aplaudindo-menina-de-10-anos-por-ostracizar-a-sua-irma
She will wake up in a few years …..
and realise she is on the web forever …..
nice !!
Thank you for this article .this is surely the most upseting thing i have seen at a convention in over 50 years a jw .i no longer go to conventiins after last years miserable depressing one..this is beyond belief using young children in this way is pure evil..
@Ian, yes, last year’s convention was troubling. I no longer go to assemblies, but I did go to the convention yesterday (Friday). I fell asleep during the DRAMATIC BIBLE READING (capitals used by WT) and woke to find everyone around me singing the victory song (number 149). I didn’t know why. And then came the most boring talk I have ever heard, about how Jehovah is the greatest example of endurance. I couldn’t endure it. Not that I don’t respect Jehovah. But it was presented in such a boring way.
Last time I endured such a boring talk, I looked around at the brothers and sisters on both sides and wondered how they could pay such rapt attention to such boring stuff. As I left the venue, I saw my good friend in a cafe. When I asked him what he was doing there, he said the last talk was so boring he just had to get out and away. I cursed him for not messaging me.
So yesterday I left at lunch time. I have better things to do with my life than to sit around and get bored. Like, is this the best the GB can do? If the GB wants us to stay, at least give us some interesting talks.
So don’t worry yourself that you couldn’t make it to the convention. You aren’t missing much. In fact, you are probably doing yourself a favour, doing something constructive.
Boring talks and long and windy prayers! Sigh! I washed my car in the rain…changed my new guitar strings…mowed my yard just the same as I did yesterday….can’t waste my time,” sighing” over you…I got better things to do…..
@Ricardo
“And then came the most boring talk I have ever heard, about how Jehovah is the greatest example of endurance. I couldn’t endure it.” — ROFLMFAO
PS If u’re wondering how they can sit there & pay attention to that incessant flow of (BORING) intellectual diarrhea, I honestly don’t believe they are paying attention. Most of them don’t have that kind of attention span. They just sit there & vegetate thru most of it, in a kind of waking sleep. There were times after a meeting when I would make a remark to someone about something that was said in the meeting, & just get a blank stare, like the person never heard what I heard. They had no idea what I was talking about, because they truly had not heard it. There were times I was mystified at how folks didn’t know slightly advanced, or even basic, doctrines that they had “studied” dozens of times in the “Watchtower”, etc, and “heard” in talks. Most of them really live a zombified existence.
I agree twisted sister – ‘a waking sleep’ is a good expression! I often used to drop off during sessions, my pencil and notebook embarrassingly dropping to the floor – then you sit up straight and hope that nobody saw … but then you look round and see someone else dozing … it’s when they start to snore it’s amusing. Anyway so glad to be out of the zombie existence.
On shunning, I recently met up with a Df’d sister who has not spoken to her JW mother or sister in 20 years. When her Df’d father died tragically, not one JW attended the funeral except me and my husband. When I mentioned this to the CO at the time he said who were we supporting? The coldness of his response was probably just the beginning of my fade – no empathy.
Then we found out about 607 and the lies …. no going back – this organisation is in the hands of the wicked one!
I Witnessed an even more embarasssing event than my own noddin and scribblly notes…one bro. nodded off afternnon sess….outside row curled downwards, lost his balance, fell out of his seat, caught himself, started clapping and returned to his seat…worse of all, no one else was in the clappin mode! I think most wer noddin….was not time to clap…his doing such woke up quite a few…and we all tried hard to remain awake, but was not an easy task, after that. JW.org want all to be in dopish mode…slip and slide all kinds of stuff past then. They are only concerned with the collections and numbers at end of conventional…the rest who do not doze off are in their own happy place in their minds and are thinking of what they and their friends will do after…where to eat…where to shop etc….I know cuz bin there dun that….
Twistedsister69, I had the same experience over and over again and came to the same conclusion. They sit there and it looks like they are listening but they don’t hear at all what is being said from the platform.
So you mean we were the ones listening and thinking “this is a load of boring rubbish” while those others are in a zombie trance situation? That is very upsetting. How can I get into that zombie trance so that the talks don’t bother my sensibilities? I want to be like them.
It’s hypnotism by slow boring speakers. But, you remember those announcements after the song, right? That is because you “can remain standing”(threw up a little in my mouth there, yuk). They want you to remember that there are places to donate, where to park, etc. They want the R&F to zombie out and feel guilt for not listening. Reference: Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
I went to the Sunday Regional Convention today. Here in Brisbane, Australia, Bro. Spinks was giving the final hour long talk. Spinks was the brother who played the fool with the Royal Commission review, who did not show submission to the superior authorities and mislead them. All through his talk I thought, If he can mislead the RC (Royal Commission) he can also mislead the RC (Regional Convention). He was lacking credibility, but then Tight Pants Tony Morris came on and told us the new system is imminent.
Wow, what a day. I came home all excited, packed my bag with canned food and messaged my group leader about which bunker we are going to hide in. He hasn’t got back to me yet. Probably got picked up by our spiritual enemies. So I have destroyed my mobile phone so they couldn’t track me and I’m hiding in the cupboard with my bag and laptop, waiting for the police or army or whatever to arrest me, too. Don’t tell them where I am. I’m holding out for as long as I can.
Those millions upon millions of Indians and Chinese who haven’t heard the good news yet, well, too bad. It’s your own fault. I can’t do anything about that right at the moment. Just get ready to die so I can have my personal salvation, thank you.
Ricardo –
I realise you are a bit of a rebel and perhaps only attend for a laugh, but the temptation to wear tight pants in front of one of your illustrious leaders must have been difficult to resist. Did you??
Only in my mind. Tight pants Tony appeared in a video, specially to tell us that the end is imminent, and that next year’s Regional is going to be about Courage. Which left me confused… is there going to be a Regional next year or not? How are we going to have one if the new system has arrived by then? So obviously the end of the system has to happen really soon, so that the survivors can be gathered together and set up the venues for us to hear the next Regional. Which is why I’m still in the cupboard.
Obviously the end hasn’t happened yet, but it can’t be too far off. Maybe tomorrow or the next day.
Ricardo –
The Society have always planned ahead despite the ‘nearness of Armageddon’. When I became a witness in 1984 it was imminent, hence my hurried baptism before I was truly ready … but that’s another story.
As to the end – the World situation looks pretty grim at the moment with the threats from Korea and USA.
I wouldn’t bank on any ‘light’ from jw.org. as the ‘light within them is darkness.’ I would get out of the cupboard and run for your life. But as one of our dear elders said a few years ago – ‘Hey, the bus stinks, the driver has lost his way and some of the passengers annoy you … but stay on the bus, look out of the windows and enjoy the view! I think not!
It could be that what’s on the bus that stinks that elder you qouted brought with him on his bottom lip. That’s why you couldn’t pay me to do that job. He admits he’s involved in dispensing what stinks, and that he likes doing it, and tells you to like it too. He’s probably even proud to do so. It makes him somebody. It makes him a stinker not a thinker!
How the advise from that elder contradicts scripture:
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortions and excesses.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.” Matt 23:25 &26 Christ (KJV)
Christ’s advise was to clean up the stink, not to disregard it for the ride and enjoy our view. I guess that’s the cowards way, once he’s aware. Or the hypocrite.
@Bad Penny,
Are you suggesting that when Tony Morris said the end is imminent he was just using a figure of speech? That he has fooled me? Surely not! He is a spiritual man. He dispenses spiritual food at the right time. It all fits in to place. See, the CO said the GB were on the brink of announcing the start of the great tribulation, the elders were given some special instructions on what to do when the GT starts, the broadcasts have been telling us to have our ‘Go’ bags ready, and last year’s Regional showed us the bunker video. The sisters in the congregation said it could all happen very quickly.
It’s just a matter of hours before someone from the congregation turns up and tells me where the bunker is. Or maybe if I pray harder. I’ll give it till tomorrow morning, then I’ll peek out and see if the destruction has happened yet.
I came out of my cupboard and turned on the television to find carnage in Barcelona. Tony Morris is right! It has started! Not quite the way we thought, with the UN destroying religion, but with the Muslims killing everyone. The Muslims are the anti-Christ, the false prophet, the image of the wild beast. The Great Tribulation has started. Hurray!
All you doubters out there better watch out now. Run to the mountains for protection against the marauding bands of Isis, the followers of the false prophet.
With such heavy hitters at the convention there in Australia it looks as if they were definitely working crowd control because of the repercussions of the ARC fiasco.
Yes, I have been told that recently brother Tony Morris was heading up a new campaign to have freeway signs installed all over the country that say: ” repent, repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near”. Sadly, the campaign was cancelled because it just was not cost effective. You know, one has to factor in money when considering expensive yet effective means of preaching the end. Oh well, does everyone really need to know how imminent Armageddon really is? I mean, 99.9 percent of India and China are gonna die anyway, yep; millions of poor kids who are struggling to find a piece of edible trash just to survive the day are going to get their heads cut off by a great, mighty and loving angel and then the birds will eat their bodies. Makes total sense to me ( sarcasm intended ).
Hmmmmm…Once upon a time…I read….Judgement is to begin with “The house of God”….?
Toni and Morris…;). are kinda behind the times…if I recall…along the Hwy between Onanole and Neepawa Mb., Canada…by some wayside Church…Theres been a sign like that for yrs! Or was that…ask us how to have a happy family…Jesus luvs ya etc.
@Victor
With all due respect, I think u’re splitting hairs. Of course no one gets DF’d for raising the odd innocuous doubt. And if u approach a GB member in front of the cong about that issue, he’s certainly not going to start jumping up & down, screaming, “That’s right Man, if u EVER start questioning WT’s authority or doctrine, it’s the AXE for u!!!” These dudes are trained to be diplomatic, sweet, & subtle. That’s how (incredibly) they & their legions r still able to suck in new recruits, albeit with less success than in the “good old days”.
You may not get DF’d for birthdays but you will get spoken to and if you continue with your behaviour you may find yourself reproved or you may have privileges removed. TBH if you have any sense and you like to enjoy life then stay away from the JW’s, I left when I was 18 because I found out what my dick was for and i’ve never looked back.
@CF
@Ricardo
“Brazen / Loose Conduct” / Disrespect for Watchtower’s version of “divine” authority?
COUNT ME IN!!!!!!!
Me to! Makes me think of when at a fam. gathering and my daughter was after a couple of boys with the broom for swearing at her friend and terrorizing her a tad…they were all around 7 or so…when a girl of 4 seen the fun, she says…hey wait up, I like to chase boys to!
People often wonder if the Watchtower leadership caste actually believe Watchtower doctrine, or are just cynical manipulators. MY answer is: CYNICAL MANIPULATORS. I do not believe that they believe. They know that, in & of themselves, they are nothing, as we all are – Yeah, I know, we’re all special, blah blah blah – so no one would normally follow them, let them run their lives, or even take them seriously. But start waving the flag of “Jehovah”, “Jesus”, & the Bible, & people will start thinking that u actually do represent “divine” authority. The entire life/social structure of the leadership caste is based on that. It’s their very EXISTENCE. It’s got nothing to do with belief or righteousness, but rather POWER, CONTROL, & $$$.
Organizatied religion is the single greatest threat to civilized society.
Well, believe me, Watchtower has got to be one of the most disorganized of all the organized religions. How any progress gets made at all is in itself a miracle. Especially in the Asian lands (excluding Japan. However, everywhere the Japanese brothers are sent to tends to see a decrease in publishers because the rest of Asia is not used to being organized).
Religion as a force will eventually die a natural death, Alexander. It won’t happen in our lifetime and it won’t be complete, but constant communication, education and awareness will see it virtually gone one day. Children have in the palm of their hands 24/7, thousands of times more information than all of the wise men and women in the history of the world put together ever had and that most definitely includes the men who wrote the bible, believing they knew what some god thought. Believing in religious nonsense is all part of our growing up and just something that had to happen. We’re learning as we go. We thought we had the handbook of life, but we were wrong. It’s time to actually grow up.
It is terrible that young children are influenced in this way.
However, I think it’s questionable to place this girl in such a spotlight on JWSurvey, Reddit, YouTube and other social media. What does it psychologically do with a child when it gets such attention? Like a commenter on Reddit wrote: “This is on the internet forever.” To me that does not seem healthy for the development of such a young girl.
The doctrines and customs of Jehovah’s Witnesses must be questioned. But at the same time privacy, freedom, etc. must be respected. It may be that her own parents do not do that (I understand her parents have put the video on YouTube), but that does not mean that we as ex-JW community should lower ourselves to that same level.
In short, my message is: please leave this child alone.
Hi Michel.
I understand where you are coming from, but keep in mind:
1:The parents uploaded this for the world to see. The family made the choice to make this public. The audience who see it therefore have the right to react, and have the right to discuss the vital issues this raises.
2: Our article is strongly sympathetic to this little girl. We make it clear that she is a victim of cult indoctrination. We state that we hope she is one day free of this cult indoctrination. In no way should anyone take this article as an attack on Melody. She is as much a victim as her shunned sister.
3: The only way to fight these cult abuses is to draw attention to them. Silence helps no-one. Only discussion and action can help fix this situation.
I hope this clarifies the thrust of the article.
I think it is quite sad that a 9 year old got baptized, a life decision that can/will come back to bite all involved, isnt that why we have to wait to 18/21 to vote, enroll in the army & so forth, a 9 year old is a kid who lacks a lot of understanding, i have seen 2 kids grow up & at 9 their is no way they are ready for any major decisions in life, thats why we as parents quide them, not force them to get dunked.I see to much of it, the same with getting married the day they turn 18, oh how many fails i have seen, & then the Elders are so quick to punish & expell when they get it wrong in life,
Whip it –
I refer to an article in Watchtower, Feb 1st, 2012, page 19 in box : “Witness parents strive to inculcate love for God in their offspring, just as the Bible commands them to. Nevertheless, they realise that when A CHILD BECOMES AN ADULT, he or she will make a personal choice with regard to worship.”
An adult at nine, I don’t think so. The reason the Society has changed on this issue is so they can keep the numbers up on baptisms and have control at a younger age.
I got strongly encourage to get dunked cuz…well 75 was fast approaching…My Mom said I had to…cuz my cuz who felt me up many times, had already taken the dunk and …How did that look. At the meetings I was suppose to answer more ques.s than he …now he was gonna be saved in 75 and me not if not dunked…she asked the Pres. overseer…Mr. Burns…(Simpsons). Was harvest time…he showed up and proceeded to be very busy…not cuz end was comming 75 wise…but cuz harvest was important so he could get his crops off and hid for Texas for winter…Had a good meal Mom prepared for him and then said….well she knows enough she can just go and get baptised. I thought then at 12 yrs old…yep, God’s chosen…uh huh…they do not even follow their own protocol. He and another rich Elder always looked down on my Father and another humble elder cuz they were poor…in no time at all they removed my Dad because he worked in the bush, a blocker/feller. Dad had to work a long way from home and did not make it back for Tues. nt bkstudies…that was one reason they gave to have him removed…Meanwhile both those rich elders would hurry their harvest and take off to spend winters in Texas…mist all the mntgs then, also in spring when seeding, many a times their seat was vacant…but could still hold their elder status…Not what you know…tis hoo u no! They are in it for the money and the power/control…to be honored and venerated…Worship of God is the farthest thing from them….Tis them who want the worship….
@ Victor and the rest joined in his past conversation.
There’s a document posted online that I read some time ago. It might have been a page from Ray Franz’s book Crisis of Conscience, but I wouldn’t swear to that. Anyway the document is WT Bethel document, and it instructs elders that a person who they have discovered does not agree with WT can be DFd. It states the person does not have to be spreading his ideas that contradict WT to others, he just has to believe those ideas to be DFd. If I remember correctly it might instruct elders not to go on witch hunts though. I think the instruction was delivered in the 80’s, possibly through the circuit overseer visits.
Some of the actions elders take is because of what they decide as individuals and as a group. The Society has rules and instructions they are suppose to apply when DFing someone, but still the elders are individuals and some will go beyond the WT instructions and some won’t always apply the WT instructions. For instance, there was an elder asked by a circuit overseer to go into a congregation the circuit overseer decided needed help. After that elder was there the other elders DF him for apostasy. The CO had to come and straighten it out.
Victor I think if you had challenged ideas that contradicted WT policies on voting, interfaith, Christmas celebrations, cigarettes, military service, compliance and belief in the “faithful and discreet slave,” rejecting the authority of the elders, or any major doctrinal belief such as the teachings on 1914, then it would have been likely you would have been on your way to getting DFd.
Victor
“Apostate is someone who actively goes against bible teachings or Jehovah himself.” Your qoute of Bro Splain, a GB member.
Splain provided an accurate Biblical definition of apostate above, but how WT interprets that further is how it subverts the Biblical meaning. For WT to be correct it would actually have to be what it claims to be if it actually has the authority it assumes (Matt 23:2). To WT going against WT is going against Jehovah and the Bible, because WT claims Jehovah has given it that much authority. Hence WT’s occasional reminders to you about Korah vs Moses. Therefore to WT if you disagree with WT, and you are a JW, then you’re an apostate. True WT will weigh the type of disagreement (on what points), in making that determination. For instance If you get involved in higher education it will just label you as not a non-exemplary Christian, not an apostate.
Splain probably didn’t want to take the time to explain all that to you, or to get rapped up in a situation he’d expect your local elders to handle if it matured into such. Also, a JW expressing dissatisfaction with WT policies on child molestation is not as serious to WT as not believing in one of its cherished doctrines that sets it apart from most other religions, and provides it cause to express itself as God’s only spokes organization on Earth. Thus the sole reasons it professes God and Biblical authority, kind of like I’ve heard the Roman Catholic pope does. Though not ever having been Catholic I’m no expert on Catholicism.
I know someone else up above gave a dictionary definition of apostate, but the way words are used in the Bible and Christian organizations is not always in line with dictionary definitions.
Ex the word “not” above. Should say “label you as a nonexemplary Christian” instead of not a non-exemplary Christian. My mistake.
They dfed my Father-in-law for and performed a full fledged witch hunt. Any who did not shun him…got wtched and followed and then” necessary “measures were taken to….keep God’s orgy clean!
Saw this on the news this am. Not quite in line with the post or JW’s but could have knock on ramifications. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-40920714
I was in attendance and when I saw this and I just felt sick to my stomach. I have spent 20 plus years defending the organization and “preaching the good news” however, I knew things were a little messed up at times. When I saw this video at the convention, I knew there was a major problem in the organisation and so I started looking at sites like this one.
You have nobody to blame but yourselves Governing Body! You should have stayed hidden (discreet) and less aggressive with this kind of nonsense but now you will reap what you have sowed, that’s right; you are not immune to biblical warnings! Humble yourselves, become men of honor, transparency, love and mercy and stop imitating the pharisees of the 1st Century! Stop straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel (child molestation policies). Admit that you have no clue when Armageddon is coming. Admit your false prophecies that you heavily inferred via WT articles, meeting and assemblies. I still have some love for the organisation and my brothers and sisters but unless you change, I will not continue to be part of this!
Clark
“For there is nothing hidden which shall not be manifested; neither has any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.” KJ Mark 4:22
Don’t feel sick. Be glad that these things (truths) are now shown to you. There’s a reason for that. Some will be shown the truth, some won’t. You’ll see his hand in every matter, at least all things of any worth.
Thank you for the reply, you are correct in that some see truth while other simply refuse to take off the rose colored glasses. I do have a few friends that are witnesses and are awake. We are staying in the organization only because of our families while desperately hoping for organizational change. If it didn’t have my friends I think I would have lost my mind. I always used to say that if this is a cult then it is the greatest cult of all time and I am the biggest idiot of all time ( FYI- I am highly educated). Now, I know for a fact that, I am the biggest idiot of all time! I believed this with all my heart and soul, I was even willing to let my child die when the blood issue came up. I have to tell you something amazing, when I was faced with the blood issue for my child, not a single JW came to comfort me. As I sat in the hospital I could not control my tears and so I prayed to Jehovah and said: ” I will let her die but you must take me with her, because I can’t exist without her. Moments after that, a kind nurse with the smile of an angel approached me and gave me a hug, shed a tear with me and told me: ” God won’t take your child from you, just have faith”. My child did not need a blood transfusion after all and I will never forget that angelic nurse for the rest of my life. In the end, it was real christian love that started to open my eyes to all the nonsense we have been taught.
@Clark,
Something which has helped me, and which I believe will help you, is to differentiate the information we receive into what helps us to be better Christians versus what helps us to be better Witnesses. I believe you will encounter conflict when you air your views with fellow witnesses, as they most probably see loyalty to the Governing Body as synonymous to loyalty to Jehovah. But it isn’t, and being a good witness is different to being a good Christian.
I can see by your comments that you, like me, take exception to the teachings of our organization which are opposed to what we would expect from God’s true organization. This is because you are looking at things through a Christian lens. Continue to do this, but become aware that much of what we disagree with is actually teachings for witnesses. The response to child sexual abuse, treating the victims as if they are nothing, is not Christian. The Good Samaritan would not react in such a way. But it is the Witness way of doing things: keep anything negative hidden. To prove this, have you heard of Condace Conti, ‘Amelia’, Campos vs Lopez and the US$4000/day fine that Watchtower is paying? These are all court cases Watchtower has lost and have had to pay out massive fines. Our donations are being paid out as compensation. Have you heard about Watchtower being an NGO connected with the UN? Not from our organization. Why? Because this sort of thing is negative from a witness point of view. But not from a Christian point of view. As Christians we want to know what our organization is up to and where our donations are going.
False prophecy, again, is a very witness thing to do. Witnesses have been doing it since 1879. But not a Christian thing to do, as noone knows the day or the hour.
Be aware that our end goal is to love Jehovah and be true Christians. This is what leads to salvation, not being a good Witness. Religion is a vehicle to get us there. There are plenty of helpful Christian teachings from our organization. Like Jesus said to his followers, do as the Pharisees say, not as they do. Learn to value the information which is presented which is helpful for Christians, but weigh up and be aware of the information for becoming a better Witness. Be aware that our brothers and sisters around us have gotten things very mixed up. In such a way, you can use the organization to become a better Christian, without the baggage of trying to be a better witness.
@Ricardo. Always great great comments – much appreciated. It’s all about being a better Christian and opening our eyes to very obvious principles and not rules. Jesus said ‘above all things have intense love for one another.’ He’s not asking us to have intense love but commanding us to have intense love. The ‘above all things’ trumps anything else like shunning. Granted, bad associations spoil useful habits but let each use his conscience to make this decision. All are so busy that we may have no time to spend with family let alone disfellowshipped ones but what would be the Christian thing to do? I had a disfellowshipped close friend call me recently as his brother passed away in a car accident. He needed comfort and was very depressed. Should I meet with him or avoid him? Should I point him to the elders but he wanted to meet with me. Would Jesus push him away or embrace him and call him his brother? Any religion that uses dates and makes predictions paints themselves in a corner and at some time will need to face the facts as men. The GB need to man up and admit the issues, apologize and move on. It’s very simple but too much pride in the way. There will come a time when membership will keep slowing down and funds will dry up so that’s the urgency to preach and convert and guilt to giving of your valuable things so the GB can continue to live in luxury. Do you know how many JWs I have asked if they agree with all the teachings of the WT? All don’t agree with everything but won’t make that info public. Yes, I am a JW and being very careful to fade ever so slowly with much info from sites like this one to have support and such on my side.
@Ron,
You may well find that there are others in your congregation or nearby congregations who are in the same boat as you. Also, there are always victims of elder abuse somewhere closeby who have been abandoned by the mass of witnesses and who are lonely and miserable. As you fade, I suggest you find ones like these who you can relate to and who may appreciate your input of what you have seen or realized.
I have been very lonely in the past, but now I have a group of misfits and rejects who I have coffee with often, who come to my place for dinner and I go to theirs. The elders don’t bother to encourage them, nobody in their congregations cares about them at all. Some of them still go to meetings occasionally, one goes preaching with me. But they are great company and are really looking for others to mix with. I have been able to share the newspaper articles about the child sex abuse cases Watchtower has lost and how so much of the donations are being paid in compensation, as well as the article about Watchtower being an NGO with the UN. I’ve shared the elders book and brought out some of the secret things elders don’t want us to know. They have then shared that information with other witnesses.
Why fade on your own when you can actually be a big help to others like yourself?
Even when I first became a witness my understanding and love of Christ- at times- conflicted with JW doctrine and especially certain attitudes against ” worldly people”. However, I learned to turn that voice of reason down to the point where I could barely hear it, but it never went away. I loved your comment about using the organization to become a better Christian and that is exactly the course I am taking for my family. Sure, my kids are not the model JW kids in that we don’t drag them out in field service every Saturday, however, people tell us all the time that our kids are so sincere, loving, kind, responsible and devoted to their faith. My kids have a sincere love for all people of all backgrounds and religions and are very strong in their christian faith. We teach them that to obey Jehovah you must obey the Christ in word and deed and the secret place in your heart. We spend valuable family time together and only use the bible for our family study. Thank you for the kind words and reply.
Welcome aboard all….it is good to be referred to as “misfitz”, “apostates”, what have you…”Light is truly getting brighter and brighter” in regards to….JW.org. They are losing their grip, when people allow themselves to think for themselves and use the brain God gave us, weigh the evidence…take off rose coloured glasses…smell the coffee…What does God expect of us? Alot less than the heavy burdens that JW.org places on people once they dig their talons into them! There is a stink arising in Jw.org….it is not us apostates…we are just the ones pointing to the true source of such.
Hi Clark
I am happy that you have reached this point with your own power of reason, I pray every day that my Mother, sister and close friends that have shunned me for the last ten years do the same.
Thank you for giving me hope that this is still possible.
Hi Rodger, I feel for you, that is a tough situation to be in. Please remember that Jehovah and his Christ will always love you if you continue to strive to follow Jesus. As for you family, it’s hard to say if they will ever see the truth about the “truth”. My personal journey was gut wrenching and painful. You would think I would have been elated and happy, the first several months were horrible, I would cry and sob when I was alone, I was depressed and then came the anger. Eventually, I found peace and a new resolve and outlook on life. I no longer donate to the organization, instead if I see a fellow witness or sincere “worldy person” in need I give the donation to them. The programming and emotional prison that we JWs are in is very very difficult to break out of and believe me the organisation is an expert at messing with your mind and logic when you question anything they say. Having said that, I have never seen a time in the organisation quite like this, many witnesses are secretly scratching their heads and questioning silently in their thoughts or with their close witness friends. I feel the organisation will either make drastic changes or many sincere Christians in the organization will continue to wake up.
@ Clark;
I, like you, went through the steps when I found out the “truth about the truth”. What are they again? Denial, depression, grief, anger, resentment and finally acceptance. Now, for perhaps the first time in my life, I feel that a great weight of fear, obligation and guilt ( FOG) has been lifted off of my shoulders!
No longer hampered by religious intolerance and backwards dogmatic teachings amounting to mind control, I don’t give one thought to what I know I will never live to see or that which I have no control over namely, an end to this system. I have made peace with this and can now move onward enjoying a comfortable life cult free not waiting for any nonsensical “real life to come”.
As far as the future goes, I have purchased my mausoleum site for my wife and I in the certainty of our inevitable demise that will take place, not just for us but for all mankind the everlasting, eternal, “dirt nap”. This is where all of mankind, Christian or pagan, Jewish or goyim are truly equal and at peace. Death is truly the great equalizer no matter what you believe.
“Lord, grant me the patience to endure what I can’t change and the strength to change what I can change and please, oh Lord, grant me the wisdom to know the difference”. Wise words these and worth the peace of mind they convey.
Bad Penny, thanks for that, i do note that with some parents their seems to be a prestige to having infants baptized, then these kids go on to serve in various capacity, more prestige for the parents & their group, same as getting married at 18, so many fails, we know of a couple who couldn’t get the daughter done the ail quick enough, poor thing she might wake up down the tract & realize how much life they have missed out on. The other comment here in relation to Elders doing their own thing is so true, own book of rules, i am quite happy to watch these old fossuls slowly drop of the perch.
I was baptized in 1966 and in 1968, Watchtower came out with an article (page 348) that a woman could be disfellowshipped for fornication if she could not prove she screamed even if threatened with a knife or gun because keeping her vagina from being stuck in by somebody’s penis was more important than her life. I remember being so angry over that article but it was too late for me because I had gotten sucked into the religion because I had been convinced that God had chosen it as his only spokesman to mankind but my instincts were right. There is no way that any god would approve of any religion that would treat females like that.
If I had known then to not be afraid to stick up for what in my heart knew was wrong, I would have been disfellowshipped for apostasy if I had talked about it to anybody in the Organization. Even then my husband would tell me that I was not allowed to say anything against the Organization.
If I had been shown that article BEFORE I had gotten sucked into that religion, I would said”ARE YOU F****ING KIDDING ME????
To all of you who are proud to be called one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I want you to explain why. What possibly makes you think that any god would be behind it? Do you have any evidence at all? When my elders came to me and I put that question to them, the only answer they had for me is that World War 1 started in 1914. Is that the reason you would let your child die if they needed a transfusion to live?
By the way, Witnesses still have to die before having their vaginas stuck in by a penis or face a judical committee for fornication or adultery.
@Caroline,
In the spirit of your post, together with what Lloyd has said lately, I have asked a few Witnesses what proves to them that this is Jehovah’s organization. They always refer back to our beliefs, that we have the truth. I always reply that having the beliefs right is not enough, there must also be the Christian love, and that is sadly lacking. They all agree with me, but they never seem to question their belief that this is God’s organization.
That’s when I ask what is more important to them, to be a Witness or to be a Christian. This question seems to be effective in getting them to think and to see a difference. It probably doesn’t mean much to you, but if you ever see a cart looked after by someone who doesn’t know you, try asking them that question. Try asking them which is more important, helping victims of abuse or ignoring them. Their own personal salvation, or that of the Indians and Chinese who haven’t heard the good news yet. Why is the GB always telling us the end is imminent, then?
My question to you Ricardo is, do YOU believe it is God’s Organization, not what all those “others” say.
I rack my brain every day to come up with the perfect thing to say to my kids that will make them question the JW religion but I can’t think of it because no matter how much I disagreed with the Society on a lot of things, I still always thought that Jehovah’s blessing was on the Organization and eventually Jehovah was going to step in and correct whatever wrong they were teaching.
No matter where I go within a 200 mile radius from where I Live, I will run into Witnesses that know me. I would have to go to Chicago to run into a Witness cart with Witnesses that do not know me, but my question to them is to prove that Jehovah and Jesus chose Watchtower in 1919 and what were they teaching then and also, I carry “The World Wide Security” book with me at all times to prove to them that Jesus is not their mediator, just as he is not your mediator if you identify yourself and your friends in the JW religion.
@ Caroline
JWs believe that their beliefs are correct, and that is what makes them the chose org of God. However, that’s not a logical conclusion considering WT beliefs are always changing. And anyone that’s been around WT for a while (20 years +) knows those beliefs always will change. So purely logical thinking identifies that WT beliefs alone could not distinguish it as God’s one and only org. What beliefs? The ones it has now or the ones it had 30 years ago? If the WT beliefs from 30 years ago distinguished it, because those were correct, then the current beliefs which are different should cause WT to fall out of favor with God, if he is only choosing WT because of correct beliefs.
Let’s analyze a few of WT’s long held beliefs. Some that JWs commonly claim other Christian denominations don’t accept, and in examining let’s consider whether it makes since that Christ would destroy another Christian for not accepting WT’s views.
The trinity. I’ve heard about 86% of people who accept the trinity believe God and his son are separate beings, but that they share equal power, and these folks feel Christ existed forever. The points different from JW beliefs are that Christ always existed, was not created, and that he shares equal power with God.
The question you might ask them Caroline is where in the scriptures does it state God will condemn a mortal man for believing that? I’ve never read that in the Bible. I’ve only heard or read that thought from men. It’s not in scripture. From early in Genesis (‘Let us make man in our image”) through the last scriptures in Revelation (“He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.”) Christ is given god like status in scripture. And he is called god whether a small g or capital G who cares? Speaking of Christ,”For by him were all things created, that are in heaven , and are in earth, visible and invisible…all things were created by him and for him” Col 1:16 KJV. He is called god in scripture multiple times and worshipped multiple times and at the Father’s command Christ is worshipped. And that scriptural status would not change if Christ had a beginning or not and/or was not equal to his father or not. So, why would Christ (who all judging has been given to, “the Father judges no one at all.” John 5:22) kill some people forever for believing those things about him right know when man’s knowledge is limited? 1Cor 13:12
Another JW belief they think distinguishes them: Hell fire not being a real place. According to scriptural recordings of Christ’s teachings it is. Therefore, since Christ could not be wrong, then for hell fire not to be a real place a reader must interpret Christ’s own words as metaphorical (allegorical). Whether those words are literal or not is not the point of my position. The point is why would Christ, the judge of all people, kill some followers of his merely because they accepted his words in this instance as literal rather than allegorical?
This same argument could be used with the WT ideas about soul and spirit also. These are some of the cherished beliefs WT has held onto over the decades that cause some JWs to think distinguishes its teachings from other religious teachings. Thus the reason they think God has chosen it as God’s one and only Earthly organization.
Dee2 asked a lot of times why Christ’s recorded words and the words of other Bible writers were written in ways allowing readers to draw different conclusions. One Bible reason is so that peoples’ different conclusions about scriptures would cause them to act in certain ways. That is to see if individuals would follow the intent the scriptures were written for or not. Heb 4:12,”For the word of God….is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart” King James Version. Remember the followers of Christ that left him when he said they must drink his blood and eat his flesh? Remember how the Jews read scriptures and condemned the actions of people for doing things that were not condemned in scriptures (and those expressing condemnation were themselves condemned by Christ)? The WT reaction to scriptures is like that. WT’s interpretation causes it and its followers to pronounce people as condemned that are not condemned in scripture, merely because those people hold beliefs that are not in agreement with WT. So, you might ask your kids where specifically in scripture does it state Christ will condemn people for some of these points that are opposing WT beliefs.
corrections
chose=chosen 1st paragraph
know=now 4th paragraph
Messenger, I am not allowed to say anything to my pioneer daughter that even hints Bible doctrine and my son does not talk to me at all and I am considered bad association to him and as far as the trinity, hell fire and the immortal soul, probably Watchtower has the most plausible explanation as all of Christendom but that does not answer all the contradictions in the Bible because if you wanted to, you can still show from the Bible that we “have” a soul and that Jesus and Jehovah is the same entity and the Bible clearly teaches hell fire and so on.
I don’t know what the magic sentence would be to wake up an indoctrinated Witness but about a week ago, the one sister who still comes to see me was complaining about her ex-husband and so I laid my complaint with Watchtower in that her ex-husband probably complained to the elders about her and she would not have been allowed to be present to defend herself because that is Watchtower policy. I told her over and over again “do you GET what I am telling you?” and over and over again she kept saying that Jehovah sees everything and in his own time, he will fix it if it;s wrong and for me to calm down.
Talking to them about new light will get you now where because we were always excited to get new light and we were.taught to believe that that was why we knew we had the “truth” because churches in Christendom would never change their doctrines no matter what.
I am the kind of person that if my close friend in the congregation had woken up and tried to talk to me, I would have listened. I was like the Boreans and would not assumed that my friend was with Satan and when I woke up, I found that absolutely the only one I could talk to was my youngest daughter but she had to read Crisis of Conscience before the penny dropped.
@Caroline, To get through to fellow witnesses, I have found it best to ask, as I have mentioned, what is more important to them: to be a good Witness or to be a good Christian? Help them see there is a difference between the two. When their minds try to work that out, it is the start of waking up.
@ Ricardo,
The Governing Body has always said that the end is imminent, why? Because they’re Adventists and cult doctrine/ belief depends on an event or person to “come”; taken to the door by unpaid, unlettered, uninvited proselytizers otherwise they have absolutely little to no chance of getting adherents. How is that working out for them lately? Not so much.
So, let’s review; you have a “coming” of Jesus, another “coming” of the Great Tribulation which culminates at Armageddon but beforehand the remnant must be raptured and yet again the “coming” of an unscriptural prancing panda, “Paradise Earth”. Do you notice a theme here?
Thus the trap Jehovah’s Witnesses have placed themselves into. A trap based on fear, misinformation and cultish servitude to a true dystopian organization that has not been blessed by God or his son, period. Thus the nonsensical dates of 1919 AD, 1975 AD, 607 BC, etc. all floundering idiotic dates supporting nonsensical doctrines based on their (Watchtower) misinterpretations of sacred scripture.
It has only been a few decades since these morons have understood what hyperbole is and had to make the needed adjustments to their doctrine. Christendom has always understood hyperbole and that the governments were the superior authorities, not so the WTBTS. They were hung up on who was going to be resurrected and that Jesus and God are the superior authorities. I am quite sure Caroline and the rest of us “old timers” remember the release of this, so called, “New Light”.
Personally speaking, I’ve come to the conclusion that 1914 AD is incorrect, the “great crowd of other sheep” are two separate and distinct groups, and that the rider of the white horse, in the four horsemen of Revelation, is a “false” Christ as Jesus pointed out in his discourse on the Mount of Olives. He gives the exact order of the horsemen in his warning to his disciples. Now ask yourself, would Jesus say one thing to his disciples before his death and then latter on say something different to the apostle John in the Revelation? This rider, with the bow, is a FALSE Christ not the one identified latter as “Faithful and true”. This “coming” is what Adventist movements have been preaching since the Millerite movement began back in the middle of the 19th century, just recently revived by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I may be totally wrong but it’s my doctrine and I will stick with it. At least I don’t feel obligated to waste my time or money convincing others of my own beliefs. As has been said before and needs repeating; God will save individuals not organizations, especially this abomination foisting itself off as God’s spirit directed earthly organization. This is why my immediate family and l left, not for lack of love for Christ but because we don’t care to be associated with this hypocrisy anymore than association with any other church in Christendom. All of them are a part and parcel of
Babylon the great; just with some doctrinal differences. What all have in common is their support of the United Nations. Thus the angel in mid-heavens admonition to get out of her or suffer her plagues.
Living the life true Christian freedom brings, and loving it!
Allz I can say…..if this is their rule…I pray that one day they some how will face a similar situation! This disgusting bunch! Bum prints on their front doors…zebra muscles on their expensive pumps….and plugged drain covers is far to easy going on this bunch.
Sorry…I do not always poke stuff in the right place…my last comment was in regards to what Caroline said as to “what they expect” from a woman being raped, sad. As to your comment Big B…not following any religion….same goes for my husband, daughter and myself.
@ Sharon Christensen,
Yes, I concur completely with your statement. I don’t follow anybody or any organization that has proven, hundreds of times over, to be dumber than I am. They (WTBTS) are just guessing at what the Bible’s message is and what they are preaching is not the Gospel that Paul delivered on the Aeropagus in Athens.
Their message is an arrogant aberration of the Bible’s message of true peace and freedom given by the Messiah, Jesus Christ; a message of hope and love for mankind. Watchtower beliefs are based on the supposition namely, “what if Adam and Eve did not follow Satan and sin in the Garden of Eden?”
This supposition requires that imperfect men have an insight of Gods purposes for mankind although, other than the messiah or his kingdom, his purpose is not spelled out anywhere in the scriptures. The prancing panda paradise earth is Watchtower nonsense that borders on mythology, similar to belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. A hope that no one living today is likely to see.
Some may say that all things are possible with God however, I say “all things maybe possible with God but are they probable?” In other words, would you make book on it? Would you bet your life or future on a supposition? Is there a benefit for following this supposition now? Does it put a penny in your pocket or a potato on your plate? Does it add a minute to your current lifespan?
Many I knew have and are taking their everlasting ‘dirt nap’ even as I write this. A perfectly good life wasted in the pursuit of following the cult teachings of a group of nobodies, delivering their idiotic message on their own dime ‘cold calling’ people at their homes without any promise of a reward other than “treasures in heaven” that unfortunately cannot be withdrawn.
Sad, as well as disgusting is it not? P. T. Barnum said it best, “there is a sucker born every minute.” Wise up people, especially you active Jehovah’s Witnesses, you are being duped and deceived in the worst way and your works are for naught!
Watchtower’s politically correct monoculture causes a burden on its members. The legal department should not be creating a politically correct environment that is not entirely legal. Some of the activities are suspect of being unconstitutional.
The brand new ideology of a hierarchy like the Catholic church has no place in true religion. As a result, the numbers in various countries show a steady downward trend.
With the child sexual abuse scandal, people are noticing that Watchtower has failed to be proactive in their response. It takes them going to court in order to make some changes. Sad.
Big B. Really enjoyed your comment.
@ Stuart;
I hope that my comments are informative and useful for helping others that desire freedom to break free from this abusive, dystopian cult posing as “true” Christianity. If the comments are humorous so much the better. Thank you for your comment.
Just wtchiing Leah’s Scientology now…she is talking with two girls who were molested in the religion when they were young…how their cases were handled…like Jw.org? anyone else see this program?
In the Awake! No. 7 issue of April 8, 1949 you can read:
“Instead of protecting feminine chastity the “Church” protects even those who murder girls to satisfy their base animal passions. Such was the case in Cucuta, Colombia, last August The killer was not a clerical novice; he was a 50-year-old priest named Gabriel Francisco Obeso, who for the last fifteen years has been chaplain in the hospital of St. John the Divine. For several years he had lived with a widow, Clementina Munoz, and her two children, Josefina and Pedro. When 17-year-old pretty Josefina decided to marry a young man and put an end to living in sin with “Father” Obeso, the priest determined that if he could no longer have her no one else would, and so he killed her in the most gruesome fashion. One of Colombia’s leading magazines gives the details: […]”!
If you want to read the details, you can search for the above said issue of “Awake!” and read all the article.
Thanx to all who share comments etc. here…Big B…your comments remind me sooo much of things my own Father would say…unfortunately he to is taking, along with my Dear Brother who got killed in a “tree falling” accident…both r taking their dirt naps….miss them so much…only hoped with all ones might that what we were lead to believe as to death/resurrection would be true and we could once again see them…but no one knows for a certainty, only speculation and promises that may not come true. We can do nothing about it…my Dad would say…Man is nothing really, God’s time table does not orbit around each of us. I had a very tuff and emotional day today after watching Leah’s interview with the two girls yesterday…memories and to know to some degree what they must have felt…for myself, whatever …..but to see those grown gals breakdown as they recall the events they survived thru…I feel soo sorry for them, with no one to turn to who would listen and help..”.how terribly alone a child feels…I know, and then the hurt when their own Mothers would not support them as they wanted to speak out against the church…..that hurts even more so. If atleast ones Mother….the main support of a kid would, I think most kids could endure alot, but if their own Mother does not, but supports the corrupt church instead , that is truly heartbreaking. I am glad that they, from Sea Org, as well as many who have been abused within the Wt org. are getting help from counsellors and Police…may justice be rendered for all who have had to endure things that should never happen in a organization where God is suppose to be….At times I comment and sound like a crazy person…I am not really…;). Well at least that is my opinion…When one has been there done that and still messed up in ones mind because of the after affects of living in a cult …dealing with their mind etc. control…..well I get wound up like Leah does! Bear with….Thru all I am just glad to be there no more….I raised my daughter….FREE! She will never have to suffer from mental control of a cult like this poor girl of the video does…We need to keep trying to get justice served on religions who have done way more damage to people than good. Interesting…Scientology uses child labor, childern are treated as little adults, required at a very young age to sign their life away to the religion for a billion yrs, forever? Sound like there are any similarities here to?????.Do not think for oneself….do not take a fellow believer to court….to not talk about bad things that happen within the church….and on and on……wake up and smell the stink?
Caroline, their is no proof that it is gods organisation, the same with all religions, its a way of controlling people & yes i do believe that certain people need the structure of being part of something, WT are running out of time as further prophecies fail & prove not to happen, the latest talk leading up to the “Don’t give up convention is, the GB are no longer worried about people making it through the great Trib, but people not making it to the great trib, i got that from a CO, so when you say it that way it makes people sit up & go, oh it must be so close don’t give up, & in another 10 years when nothing has happened they will forget they said that,
@Caroline,
Whip It has echoed my thoughts exactly. As I am sure you already know full well. And which I have said in the past: Caroline, we will have to agree to disagree, as I will deal with my situation in the best way I see fit.
Ricardo, just exactly are we not agreeing on? Please be specific. As you can tell by my comments, I am suspicious of your story because what you are describing does not describe anything close to my own experience with that religion.
@Caroline, does the story of 3 elders making a bogus letter from the Governing Body sound like anything from your own experience with that religion? There are lots of things going on that are irregular. I am in the envious position of having heard so many excuses from elders I can now repeat them back in defence of myself. I know the procedures which normal publishers don’t know. I can see the difference between being a Witness and being a Christian, and when I include such in my answers, how can the elders possibly counsel me? I can easily find lonely victims of abuse from the local congregations and associate with them.
It is not only elders who know what the loopholes are in this organization, Caroline. If you have the right contacts, they can save you when you need it, they can tell you the right things to write in a letter to the branch (or even write it for you).
What are we not agreeing on? You think I should acknowledge that I am a Witness. I consider myself a Christian first, Witness second. However, when talking to other witnesses who feel that the WT organization is God’s true org, I can use the fact that I am still technically a witness to discuss on a common ground with them, to ask them questions about the org. Something which someone who has left the org or no longer considers themselves to be a witness or a Christian cannot do.
What are you, Caroline? Are you a Christian? How do you describe your current situation?
Ricardo, I do not consider myself a Christian because I do not believe the Bible is inerrant anymore. I have found way too many contradictions in the Bible to ever think that any Bible could possibly be from any perfect God and also the god that the Hebrew Bible describes is not any kind of god that I would ever worship ever again, once I started actually paying attention to how that god is described in the Bible but I do believe in the good principles that the Bible does describe but they are only good common sense principles.
I don’t need the Bible to be a good person and neither do you because if the only reason a person is a good person is because they are being forced to be a good person because of what their religion tells them to do or get killed by that god, then I don’t want to be associated with a person like that anyway and I don’t want to be associated with that kind of god.
Ricardo, have you read any of Ray Franz’s books like Crisis of Conscience or In Search of Christian Freedom? Ray Franz was a Christian until he died I believe and his book In Search of Christian Freedom laid out a brilliant study of how religions use gullible people to line their pockets and nobody needs a religion or organization to be a true Christian. You and your friends are being used and abused by the JW religion and you all read that book, I think you would really benefit from reading it and not let Watchtower do that to you anymore. That is why you all feel like misfits. It isn’t anything you all did. It’s Watchtower is doing to you by making you all feel like misfits. Try and get them to read any of Ray Franz’s books and you will quickly see just how indoctrinated they still are by Watchtower. If any of you tell the elders that you have read any of his books, you will be marked as bad associations. Do you want to be associated with that religion?
I would disassociate myself if it wasn’t for the fact that I would lose my daughter that still talks to me and still wants to keep company with me. The best thing I can do is to be the nicest and most “normal” person and generous person and mother that I can be and not get myself disfellowshipped (disassociated).
Watchtower is evil by not letting us talk to our friends and relatives when we find out how we were deceived by Watchtower by making them think that we are in league with Satan etc. They use every trick in the books to keep up the numbers and I absolutely despise the Watchtower Society for the prison that they (the 8 million still associated) are in and we are still in when we can’t disassociate without losing the friends and relatives that we still have that will talk to us.
I believe your horror stories. I had to think long and hard and found your story so horrible and I was going by my experiences but I have my own horror stories too and after thinking about it, I remembered many different Witnesses in several congregations and their horror stories and I believed what they were saying and I remember telling my husband so many times how I wished I could be in those different congregations and that there was no way in hell that I’d let myself be treated like how they were being treated and that I wished I could be in those congregations so I could see those experiences for myself and I’d be like the mama bear tearing those elders apart, limb from limb.
I have related how our congregation put on the platform a woman who split up a Witness family by having an affair with the Witness husband but the Circuit Overseer wanted an experience and so they put her on the platform but nobody in our congregation knew the true history of their marriage and when I found out, I wrote to the Society and they had the Circuit Overseer talk to me in front of the elders from my congregation and the Circuit Overseer said that after looking at the matter again that he would have done the same thing again.
The penny should have dropped for me then, but even that wasn’t enough for me until I read Crisis of Conscience and even then it took me months before I thought that even the Governing Body weren’t being deceived themselves into thinking it was the “truth” but after watching the testimony of Geoffrey Jackson at the Australia Royal Commission, I know for sure that they are not deceived but are true and evil deceivers themselves.
@Caroline, yes, we are like prisoners in this religion. But if we do not recognize the position of the leadership, the leadership no longer have the power. And there are some explanations which are very good. The Saturday of the Regional started with a series of talks about helping the depressed and weak ones, and giving assistance to the poor. The thoughts contained were good and scriptural. It’s just that very very few Witnesses actually DO what they hear. We especially are not seeing our leaders taking the lead in this aspect, in fact we see them doing the opposite. Like Jesus said about the Pharisees, do what they say but don’t do what they do.
Yes, I have read Franz’s books and found them really brilliant. I feel so sorry for that man, because he was so sincere. He described the culture of the WT organization very well- overly involved in people’s lives and making decisions on small matters which it would be best left to individual consciences to determine. I read what he said. I understood what he said. I can see what he said in the org. I have not yet made up my mind what to do with that knowledge.
The group that I mix with in Australia are not yet ready for books like this. Slowly, slowly, otherwise people get frightened off. However, next week I return to the cong in Asia where things are in meltdown, and several brothers in that cong have read the book. It had a big effect on them, leaving them totally demoralized. And as you say, what with the Royal Commission and Geoffrey, well, what is there to be proud of there?
I hope I can keep you all informed of the shocking things happening in the Asian congs. Believe me, there are a lot of Witnesses suffering, and if this was a political party it would be overthrown by now, there are so many disaffected victims from it.
Ricardo, the people you mix with aren’t ready to read Ray Franz’s books? Do you have a copy of “The Finished Mystery” by the Watchtower Society? You need to get your hands on a copy and read it and have your friends read it because that is what Watchtower was publishing when Jesus and Jehovah supposedly chose it as his one an only true religion. Surely they are “ready” to read Watchtower publications especially that books since Watchtower refers to it as the right food at the proper time etc. etc. If that book doesn’t help them to see they have been deceived into thinking Jehovah chose it as his true religion, then nothing will work.
Watchtower wants all the existing Witnesses to be afraid to read any of their old literature and why would that be? That would be my biggest question that I’d like the Watchtower to answer.
There’s other old books by Rutherford where he openly admits that not even one of Russell’s predictions about 1914 came true, which prove that the Society is openly lying about it’s history. Why be proud to belong to it since it was never chosen as God’s spokesman to earth and even Geoffrey Jackson said it would be “presumptuous” to say that Watchtower was speaking for God.
@ Whip It;
There is a very interesting saying that goes something like this; “say it Forget it, Write it regret it.” That is what the Governing Body is finding out much to their chagrin. They have really left a ‘paper trail’ leading back to all their failed attempts at prophecy regarding Armageddon and the conclusion of this system.
Rather than giving true help or advice to their adherents with real suggestions on how to endure this system, other than more prayer and Bible reading, they offer nothing but more work! Is it any wonder that the cult following is fed up and is leaving in droves? Does not the theme of this years ‘hoot nanny, jump and shout’ assembly speak volumes? “Don’t give up!” Yeah, right. Give the “time bandits” more of your time and your money for no return on your investment. Making unsupported promises, based on their own suppositions, for the almighty God that he is under no obligation to fulfill.
Personally speaking, I think that after serving this cult faithfully since 1957, without any end in sight and without any enumeration, is long enough to prove that this was a big waste of time and money for no reward. So I say, “give up and go, don’t waste another day worrying about things you have no control over and live your life Watchtower free!” Follow the advice of the angel in mid-heaven and get out of this hypocrisy before you suffer the plagues that will be poured out on Babylon the Great!