The Friday Column: Doctrine and loyalty is paramount to the Governing Body, whatever the cost

The Governing Body continues to stifle individuality and exert total control
The Governing Body continues to stifle individuality and exert total control

When I was a very young boy, my grandfather died. I don’t know much about his life, aside from the fact that he was a carpenter, a policeman, and a Catholic. He was, in fact, Irish Catholic, and I suspect my father’s family took great pride in their heritage and their faith. It was a disappointment for them that during the pre-1975 years, my father became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The invasive control that the Jehovah’s Witness organization had over my parents divided our family. At my grandfather’s funeral, all hope of normality was smashed when my father refused to sit with his brothers, instead electing to place himself at the back of the church, with easy access to the nearest exit.

Why would he do this? His decision was decidedly influenced by the March 15 1970 Questions From Readers, which posed the question

“May dedicated Christians attend church funerals of other religious organizations?”

The phrasing of that question in itself diminishes the thinking ability of the reader and transfers control of one’s life to the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The article casts aside the faith of the individual, suggesting that attending a church service places a Jehovah’s Witness in serious danger of violating his Christian conscience.

“Thus there is no need for a Christian to feel obligated to go to a church funeral of another religious organization, where there may be the temptation to give in to pressure and follow the crowd when everyone else is performing some false religious act. Thus also the danger of performing an act of apostasy and displeasing Jehovah God can be avoided.”

Only recently did I come to understand the permanent damage that this caused. For the balance of my childhood and to this day, I never got to know my uncles, my aunt, my cousins, or anyone else in the family. In a sad twist on the words attributed to Jesus below, my extended family became strangers who purportedly worshiped God incorrectly, or so I was led to believe.

“Do you think I came to give peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division” – Luke 12:51

The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses makes no apology for splitting apart families; in fact they summon Jesus’ words to reinforce their divisive policies. Luke chapter 12 continues:

“For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law”

Undoubtedly, self-imposed estrangement is not the intended meaning behind these expressions, but for the Jehovah’s Witness religion, they mean just one thing:

Blood is not thicker than Watchtower

It has been nearly 40 years since my family was fractured by the policies of this organization. Instead of a softening of rules and regulations, the Governing Body has elected to double down their doctrinal directives, expanding their influence using the power of suggestion and crowd manipulation to achieve control of their flock.

An example of this control is found in the Watchtower of February 2016, study edition. The article “Prove Yourself Loyal to Jehovah” drives readers to the conclusion that loyalty to the suggestions of the Governing Body is equal to loyalty to God.

We encounter Olga, a Jehovah’s Witness wife and mother who has suffered at the hands of her non-JW husband, a man who “abused her emotionally, insulted her, refused to speak to her, and threatened to take the children and leave her.” The Watchtower paints a picture of the stereotypical “worldly” man, a person without redeeming qualities and without Jehovah.

Sadly, his father dies, and Olga agrees to travel with him to another city for the funeral, showing respect for him despite his non-affiliation with Watchtower. But did she truly show this man respect? The article says:

“She waited for her husband at the church door until the ceremony
ended.”

Without even addressing the subject of attending a church funeral, the Watchtower suggests that a truly faithful Witness of Jehovah would never step foot inside a church. While this statement is not the subject of the article, the powerful suggestion is nonetheless implanted into the reader’s mind, setting a precedent that must be followed.

Just a few paragraphs later, we are reminded of some of the simple pleasures in life that must be abandoned if a person is to be loyal to Jehovah.

“Loyalty to God helped an Australian sister named Alice to decide how much importance to give to other loyalties. When she began studying the Bible, she would tell her family about the good
things she was learning. Later, Alice told members of her family that she would not be celebrating Christmas with them”

The result?

 “My mother finally said that she disowned me. I was shocked and deeply hurt because I really loved my family.”

This heartbreaking story touches me personally. The endless years of alienation from my family and any sense of celebration and happiness were replaced with piles of Watchtower magazines and books that filled my shelves, but left me empty and depleted.

It is difficult for Jehovah’s Witness children to really understand what is happening to them during the formative years of their life. One by one, normal relationships and activities are eliminated, and Witness children are advised that they must be “no part of the world.”

Another way this happens is by abstaining from school activities, including healthy and stimulating sports and clubs. The Watchtower hammers down this point by stating:

“If we are not careful, loyalty to a nation, a school, or a sports team can eventually choke out loyalty to God. For example, Henry enjoys playing chess. His school had a tradition of winning the
championship, and he wanted to put forth his best effort. But he admitted: ‘Gradually, loyalty to the school began to take priority over my loyalty to God. Weekend chess matches were crowding
out my Kingdom service. So I decided to give up being part of the chess team.'”

For most of us who have lived the life of a Witness child, we understand what this means: no extra-curricular activities, no after school sports, nothing that might steer us away from field service and regular attendance at the Kingdom Hall.

 Snitching and shunning

Along with behavior modification, Jehovah’s Witnesses engage in one of the most cruel practices in modern society: shunning. The February 2016 Watchtower advances from suggestive behavior control and graduates to full-fledged punishment of anyone who violates the social customs of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Members are encouraged to spy on one another, and if the guilty party refuses to confess, the elders must be notified.

“Kindness can help you to deal with a conflict of loyalties. For example, you may have definite knowledge that a certain fellow believer is guilty of serious misconduct. You may feel loyal to him,
especially if he is a close friend or a relative. But if you were to cover up the wrongdoing, you would be disloyal to God. Of course, your loyalty to Jehovah should come first. So like Nathan, be kind yet firm. Urge your friend or relative to seek the help of the elders. If he or she does not do so within a reasonable period of time, loyalty to God should move you to report the matter to the elders.”

In a series of 5 photographs, the Watchtower study article visually demonstrates the process:

  1. Observe the social media photo of your friend committing an infraction, such as drinking alcohol at a party where non-Witnesses are present
  2. Confront your friend with the photograph
  3. Take your tablet to the Kingdom Hall and show the photo to an elder
  4. Two elders take your friend into a private room and chastise and counsel her
  5. Your friend regains her senses and is soon participating in meetings once again
The five-step snitching process, as shown on pages 28 and 29 of the February 2016 Watchtower
The five-step snitching process, as shown on pages 28 and 29 of the February 2016 Watchtower (click to enlarge)

 

The reality is that seldom does the process occur in this manner, with step number 2 usually bypassed. But the encouragement to police each other within the congregation is very real.

Another disturbing practice is shunning, which is not limited to those who have been disfellowshipped from the JW faith. Simply leaving the organization for personal reasons results in the immediate loss of your complete network of friends. And for those who have been formally disfellowshipped from Jehovah’s Witnesses, there is a total and devastating loss.

A woman might decide that this religion she was baptized into at a very young age was not the correct decision for her. But it is too little, too late to change this decision. The Governing Body has decided that her own daughter is barred from fellowship with her. The bond is severed indefinitely, the punishment is very real.

“A conflict of loyalties may arise when a close relative is disfellowshipped. For example, a sister named Anne received a telephone call from her disfellowshipped mother. The mother wanted to visit Anne because she felt pained by her isolation from the family. Anne was deeply distressed by the plea and promised to reply by letter. Before writing, she reviewed Bible principles. (1 Cor. 5: 11; 2 John 9-11) Anne wrote and kindly reminded her mother that she had cut herself off from the family by her wrongdoing and unrepentant attitude. “The only way you can relieve your pain is by returning to Jehovah,”Anne wrote”

There is no greater bond than that between a mother and daughter, yet the Watchtower has managed to produce a doctrinal solvent capable of dissolving the closest relationship known to humans.

I know many Jehovah’s Witness mothers who have been reinstated to the organization, superficially believing they have “returned to Jehovah,” when in fact they just wanted their family back. They walk among the congregation with the permanent stigma of judicial discipline, but take comfort that they have traded public humiliation for the ability to speak and associate with their family.

 The Abraham Principle

“Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill his son” – Genesis 22:10

Inflicting harm on a son or daughter is a completely foreign concept to any human with a measure of good mental health. Yet according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, the biblical character of Abraham showed the ultimate faith in God when the Almighty required him to stab his son to death on a mountaintop.

Is this really a lesson in faith in God, or could it perhaps be a convenient method of demanding blind obedience?  The Watchtower study article titled “Jehovah Called Him My Friend” suggests that anyone who doubts Abraham’s decision to knife his son is void of faith. The blame is shifted from the perpetrator (God) to the critic:

“There are those who say that God was cruel for asking such a thing of Abraham, and some imply that Abraham’s obedience was blind and unfeeling. They take that position because they have neither the faith nor the understanding of how faith works.”

I never could grasp the sense of this bible tale. Apparently my faith and understanding are just too weak. We are told that Jehovah called out to Abraham and halted the murder just in time. Why didn’t he apply this same life-saving power moments before the planes crashed, or the tsunami hit shore, or the crazed gunman slaughtered those schoolchildren? These are questions we must all ponder for ourselves.

Separation of church and sanity

Looking back on more than 40 years of loyal association with Jehovah’s Witnesses, I truly understand how damaged my family was by this destructive organization. I can finally validate my own feelings, my internal conscience which always told me that these things are insane:

  • Associate only with Jehovah’s Witnesses
  • Stay away from non-JW church services
  • Avoid playing team sports or joining school clubs
  • Spy on your friends and turn them in to the elders
  • Avoid higher education
  • Shun anyone who leaves the organization
  • Never accept a life saving blood transfusion
  • Do not celebrate anyone’s birthday (or any holidays)
  • Believe that God will kill everyone but Jehovah’s Witnesses at Armageddon

The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses is increasing its doctrinal control over its members, further blurring the line between religion and personal identity. They have systematically removed individual freedom of mind and conscience and replaced it with a long list of directives, leaving many Witnesses depressed, feeling inadequate, or unable to keep track of the latest “new understanding” of truth.

This is a prison from which you must escape.

If you share the same feelings, please reach out to someone for help. You can do it anonymously and without judgment. Read, watch and learn as much as you can, and separate verifiable truth from the insanity of indoctrination.

Make this the first day of the rest of your life.

You are now free.

 

john-redwood-signature

Mark O'Donnell

Mark O'Donnell is a former Jehovah's Witness turned whistleblower after discovering the disturbing child abuse epidemic within the religion. His story, along with the revelation of a secret database of child molesters were featured in the March 2019 online issue of the Atlantic Magazine: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/03/the-secret-jehovahs-witness-database-of-child-molesters/584311/ O'Donnell continues to investigate allegations of child abuse within the Witness organization, and works with law enforcement, attorneys, and survivors of abuse, writing about his findings on jwsurvey.org and other outlets.

345 thoughts on “The Friday Column: Doctrine and loyalty is paramount to the Governing Body, whatever the cost

  • November 7, 2015 at 2:12 pm
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    Thank you for the well written article. I agree with the information. Keep writing these well researched, articles, not just your personal opinions as some other sites do. The Way

    • November 10, 2015 at 2:50 pm
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      Well written article demonstrating the reader has no say in the matter! You showed us how they focus on things that don’t make concepts bind, their fools! Thank you and keep up the good work!

      I read the same concept in the newly leaked “Branch Answers For Witnesses Without Brains!” and nothing has changed. The key concept is always guilt or worrying your going to stumble Bipolar-Betty or Dave-the-Drunk because we don’t want to show respect for our outside friends or workmates, Heaven Forbid a Jehovah’s Witness actually acting Human!

      Thank’s for pointing out how they word these questions so the reader has already gotten the official Watchtower Answer under the illusion:

      “The individual Christian can personally decide whether he can, with a good conscience, attend a church funeral of a relative or friend. Since church funeral is really a religious service, many brothers prefer not to be present when the church service is in progress therefore showing gross disrespect to all onlookers because the Witness must worry whether Mad Martha or Dave-the-Drunk saw him walk boldly inside the Catholic Church to pay their deep respects(I added some of my own thoughts)”

      “We avoid giving the wrong impression, stumbling weak elders or ministerial servants or pioneers! Real Jehovah’s Witnesses never want to be inside a church in case the End was to take place. Jehovah would never forgive you and by taking your own conscience, using your God given right to decide what is right or wrong based on everything we taught, its still not enough!”

      “Some of your fellow Witnesses might think you were participating in a false religious service, sticking a dagger in a goat’s neck because rumors will fly if your Brothers and Sisters see you walking past a church! Please don’t attend these services, please don’t because we are so tired of your local Elder Body sending us letters trying to get you removed or justify why your COBE is able to shun anyone for any reason, please save us time and pretend you have spiritual freedom!”

      “Work’s speak louder than Faith!”

      Watchtower Branch Office Qs.

      Galatians 3New International Version (NIV)

      Faith or Works of the Law
      3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Galatians 3:1-6

  • November 7, 2015 at 4:21 pm
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    No one know the end when Jesus come, read Matthew 25: 31-46. As you see you cant know you are sheep or goat. Because you dont know really who Jesu brother are, because of that they ask both the sheep and goats.

  • November 7, 2015 at 4:24 pm
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    The scariest sentence ever written: “All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.” This has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with credulity.

    • November 7, 2015 at 9:39 pm
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      Will the Governing Body ultimately reduce its most devoted adherents to only a few thousand? Will these faithful few openly worship the Governing Body members and do whatever they demand?

      The Governing Body previously said, “We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval.” — Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.24 Simplified English Edition.

      Then the Governing Body demanded even more loyalty when they made this endgame proclamation:

      “At that time, the lifesaving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. — Watchtower, Nov. 2013 (study edition) p. 20 par. 17.

      With the Governing Body demanding such blind faith and obedience, the Warwick world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses could become another Jonestown.

      • November 7, 2015 at 10:24 pm
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        They have to tighten the noose in order to prevent a mass exodus……..Mass Exodus = Capital Flight

      • November 13, 2015 at 1:29 am
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        You are absolutely right!

    • November 9, 2015 at 9:35 am
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      Get out the Kool aid.

    • November 10, 2015 at 10:09 pm
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      Cherie, where did you get this line from? I have heard it before but I just wanted to know where it came from. It is very disturbing. Any true Christian should questiion such a line as not coming from God. I do not recall God ever making anyone do anything that he disapproved of.

      • November 12, 2015 at 8:18 am
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        @Meredith – per ScotWm you should be able to find it in the Watchtower, Nov. 2013 (study edition) p. 20 par. 17.

        • November 13, 2015 at 2:59 am
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          Thanks 02Stang.

  • November 7, 2015 at 4:33 pm
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    I just went on to JWBroadcasting and the back button did not work. I felt trapped, just like on one of those advertising sites where they will do anything to get you to not leave the site because you need to buy the product. I wonder if they are phishing for users. Not ‘fishing for men’ but phishing for users. ha.

    • November 9, 2015 at 7:12 pm
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      This comment makes me smile every time I go by it, Meredith J. Very clever :)

  • November 7, 2015 at 6:30 pm
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    I’m here from U Tube. I just finished watching the Refinements in Scriptural Understanding video on JW Broadcasting. I noticed the brother never said the original understanding was wrong. The GB never say the religion has been wrong about anything. They have to much pride Pride is before a crash. I know closet apostates going to meetings. There is a Ministerial Servant in my congregation who says he no longer wants to be called ministerial servant because he says he no longer believes in titles. It could be the GB is on a slippery slope going downward. That’s how it seems.

    • November 7, 2015 at 6:52 pm
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      I wonder how many are like myself. I no longer believe it’s the one true religion so I’m doing a whole lot of thinking. My parents, 2 brothers, 2 sisters, 4 cousins, 1 aunt and grandmother are Jehovah’s Witnesses. I go to meetings and out in service. The last time I was out in service I irritated my partner so bad because she could tell I didn’t want to be at the door. It’s not to bad. I’m not complaining. My parents moved close to the grandchildren so I’m moved into my own apartment here close to my job. They understood I don’t want to move. I notice there are active JWS who comment here. I have a lot in common with them. I’m not going to estrange myself from my family. I don’t feel any need to do that. It’s great to see I’m not alone. We could write a book.

      • November 9, 2015 at 5:17 pm
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        You are in a very small minority of people who don’t have to estrange themselves from their family? Btw, you do realise you are wasting your life, your youth, etc on religious make believe? Not only that, you not doing anything means you indirectly assist the wt to cause more heartache and sorrow. I’m not sure I could feel ethically and morally comfortable with that.

      • November 9, 2015 at 9:55 pm
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        Alexandria R You’re not alone ! I still go to meetings, field service, and even comment at the meetings at times! My mom and sisters, nieces, Nephews, and many cousins are witnesses! Anyway, I don’t know for how much time I will be able to do so but I still manage not to teach or comment on doctrines I don’t believe in anymore! Anyway, it’s very hard to believe we are the only true religion now!

        • November 11, 2015 at 2:36 pm
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          I agree. I stopped going to meetings because of the july broadcast. Anthony Morris said that it has been their position to go to the police in cases of child sex abuse cases, bit that very same month in australia, they were investigated by the royal commission for not going to the police! Does that not seem like an outright lie to you? Then there is the whole double talk about paying back loans that they had “cancelled”. How can I ever trust them again?

      • November 10, 2015 at 11:15 am
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        Alexandria – I was like you and can understand why you won’t fade. But really, until you do you won’t be free. I feel such a weight lifted from me since fading.

        • November 11, 2015 at 2:37 pm
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          So do I

    • November 8, 2015 at 6:32 pm
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      Welcome, Alexandria R. I faded about 6 years ago, but you are correct– there are many active JWs who enjoy the eye-opening articles here and share in the discussions.

      I like the part in your comment about the MS not wanting to use that title anymore. It is a good sign. There are many good people in the Org, and all we want for you folks is to at least enjoy the mental freedom that many of us have found, even if your circumstances don’t allow you to physically move on yet.

      TWELVE JW family members!? Wow! Well, it’s great that you’re taking steps to educate yourself about the things that the Org doesn’t want you to know. Although doing so can be a bit of an emotional roller coaster ride, you will be glad that you did. So please keep visiting JWsurvey.org, and you would also benefit from a look at JWfacts.com.

      Feel free to jump into any discussion here anytime you like.

  • November 7, 2015 at 7:01 pm
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    [post removed – Bad Penny, I understand your willingness to share your letter, but the website on which it is hosted is not supported, endorsed or promoted in any way by JWsurvey. And yes, this is entirely personal. If somebody spread horrendous slander about you, and even threatened you with physical violence, probably you would be less them impressed if someone slapped a bumper sticker promoting their business on your car. Thank you.]

    • November 9, 2015 at 5:22 am
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      Sorry, Lloyd –
      I do agree with you. I didn’t realise things were so bad between you and the other team.
      It’s sad when we are on the same side of the fence and yet we can easily upset each other – I guess it was the same when we were all ‘in the borg’. Hopefully one day things can be rectified and peace will ensue between you and the other guys.
      We need each other in this battle for truth.
      Again, apologies.

    • November 9, 2015 at 12:00 pm
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      Ah interesting Lloyd, my Spidey sense was actually tingling a bit when I got to that other site. I don’t know anything about them except that they have some videos on YouTube that can’t hold my attention for more than two seconds.

      Anyway, give me Evans and Grundy all week long, and twice on Sunday. (I know there are other great folks/sites out there. I just tend to stop looking once I find what I need.)

      • November 11, 2015 at 5:42 pm
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        JB – “Spidey sense was tingling a bit”. Makes it sound like you have been a very naughty boy! Tee hee!
        I only posted the link because you asked to read the letter. Didn’t want to get us into trouble! Anyway, I’m SO glad you managed to read it before it was taken down. The more I can help to get people out of the cult the better.

      • November 11, 2015 at 8:51 pm
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        It’s a very interesting letter, Bad Penny. I’m 6 years out, so I’m already thoroughly decultified. But I’m excited for anyone who can slam the door behind them with a full-blown DA letter. It’s not currently in my best interest to do so myself, and we all know it isn’t the best idea for everybody, but it seems like it would be a VERY satisfying and liberating feeling for those of you whose circumstances allow for it! Okay, I’m a little jealous…

        It’s clear in our previous exchange that I followed your link, so my comment above was just to let Lloyd know that, not only do I not frequent that site, I’ve never even heard of that site before. That sounds strange probably, but only in this particular situation would I feel the need to do that. I wouldn’t want anything to do with anyone who attempted to abuse someone who has done as much good as Lloyd. Ugg, I know that sounds like shameless ass-kissing, but, whatever. It’s the way I really feel.

        Anyway, your letter is simply parked on that site, and you clearly meant nothing offensive by posting a link to it here. If I ever write a DA letter, though, I will shoot for TWENTY pages, just to beat your record, lol.

        • November 12, 2015 at 6:29 pm
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          JB – Yes, I, after fading away since May 2013, finally picked up the courage to disassociate. I fortunately have no family ties in the org. I and my husband came in from ‘the world’ and we have both now disassociated. Our son has faded. We lost any friends we thought we had in the org when rumours started about us being apostates. JWs avoid us like the plague so why would I still want to be one of them? So that is why I got the hell out of there!
          I have not been notified as to whether it has been announced; part of me would have loved to go and listen to it though, the urge to shout up “Yes! hooray!” could well have been too strong, but oh the satisfaction would have been great!

          • November 13, 2015 at 3:05 am
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            Bad Penny. You’ve got a lot of guts. You sound so much better than you did before when you were on here. You sounded confused but now you sound more sure and satisfied. Good to hear what you did.

        • November 12, 2015 at 8:08 pm
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          Oh nice, Penny. Congratulations to BOTH of you. And it’s great that your son is out too.

          I wish there was a legal requirement for them to read DA letters to the cong, or at least a brief statement written by the person leaving that touches on the reasons why. Pure fantasy, I know, but it would be nice!

          • November 13, 2015 at 12:30 pm
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            Thanks Meredith and JB –
            Yes, I am more positive now, I used to get rapid heartbeat and anxiety when I saw JWs out and about, thinking whether to say something. Now I just ignore them, as they do me!
            But it’s a good feeling to cut the ties and finally feel free.
            Peace and love.

  • November 8, 2015 at 8:52 am
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    What has just pissed me off this morning is this question in this months watchtower on the chapter about your conscience being your guide. The question asked ‘Does my conscience move me to shun sports that are aggressive, competitive, nationalistic, or violent’? So now we can’t even play a freakin sport let alone be allowed to watch it? What are the GB thinking right now? First it’s how we must dress and groom ourselves, then who we must associate with according to “Jehovah’s commands”, and now we can’t even play a sport, which is beneficial for you. If they want to make these ridiculous, absurd, extravagant rules, they should say something about the overweight brothers and sister with clogged arteries who get on the stage and act like God would approve and tell them “Jehovah” has opinions about overeating. This is ridiculous I wish I could leave but then I would lose friends and family and I’m close to a llot of people in the religion. Who knows; maybe in a month or too the GB will give us another rule for something so freakin small, I doubt God, for those who believe in him, would actually care about. They need to be stopped as soon as possible. 2016 is gonna be an even worse year for us. I pray for all of you I honestly do.

  • November 8, 2015 at 12:17 pm
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    John Redwood, thank you for your excellent article. It reminded me personally of times when beloved couples in the congregation (on a couple of occasions) lost a disfellowshipped child. Each time, one could see the disgusting abandonment of these couples in their time of anguish by the members of the congregation who were too afraid of going against whatever they thought the Org’s (twisted) wishes would be.

    Fortunately for the bereaved parents, some true friends were more interested in the care and support of these faithful members of the congregation than they were in surrendering to paranoia. Those funerals were tense, but they were the right thing to do.

    I liked picture 5 in the sequence you showed in your article. I’m imagining the things that would REALLY be going through the sister’s mind as she sat right next to the one who squealed on her. I’m guessing that she’s fighting the urge to CHOKE her into the “new system”.

    I also appreciated your well-stated thoughts on Abraham, and certainly do agree with you.

    Thanks for your time and effort, John.

    • November 9, 2015 at 9:30 am
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      “choke her into the new system”
      brilliant!!

    • November 11, 2015 at 1:11 am
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      Ha JB! I was thinking the same thing about the picture of the sister who’d received “direction” sitting by the friend who squealed on her!! Oh, yup!! I’d be smilin’ and singin’ next to that chick all day!! Not!! :)

      • November 12, 2015 at 3:58 pm
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        I know, Mona! And there’s something about the look on that sister’s face that makes me just hear some nasal, Kim Kardashian voice saying, “Nnnggg ehhh aren’t you glad I helped you be more pleeezing to Jehovah?”

        I’ll credit the photographer for that. They’re both lovely otherwise, and I hope they find their way OUT!

  • November 8, 2015 at 1:35 pm
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    Watchtower propaganda in these 5 pictures, at its finest!
    Who has ever ‘ratted’ out a friend will find that these people will never forgive you, let alone trust and be friendly again. Don’t believe that the elders are lovingly concerned either.
    This is simply a ‘snitch system’ like every totalitarian system MUST have in order to maintain its control and fear over its subjects.
    How can people be so stupid?!? Oh yeah, by going to the JW meetings, that’s how.

    • November 8, 2015 at 2:16 pm
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      The stupid people will just see this as God stepping up his efforts to keep his organization clean in these decadent last days.

  • November 8, 2015 at 9:46 pm
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    I know a lot of people in the cong who treat all of that as crap, & just blink an eye to it. My kids are now old enough to escape our little city & go & see more normal young ones in the big smoke, we just had the annual go bag talk,
    i pitty the guy that had to do it, what nonsense, we were joking after saying they need to add shotguns to the bag, to fight of the zombies that are going to come, oh thats right the walking dead are already in the KH.

    • November 9, 2015 at 6:50 am
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      Bet those ‘go bags’ are beginning to stink a little. They needed to be told to get some up-to-date supplies!

    • November 11, 2015 at 1:15 am
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      Does anyone else remember when the JWs made fun of the Mormons for having supplies set aside? My friend’s dad was an elder and he actually got a “talking to” from the other elders when he set up a bunch of supplies in his basement!

  • November 9, 2015 at 2:07 am
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    Hi Anthony. I enjoyed your comments and expressions you made. I just have one curious question? I hope I am not being to nosy.Why did you decide not to participate in these conversations anymore? I wish you the very best and feel free anytime to come back and engage in this open forum.

  • November 9, 2015 at 2:24 am
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    Nice article and true in a sense too.
    Yes, as mentioned by some, there are active JWs in here. I am one of them. I believe in Jehovah and I love studying the Bible and teaching the Bible to those who wish to learn about God and the future for mankind as exposed by the Holy Scriptures. As far as the Org is concerned, I sincerily believe that there are many flaws, I have been in it since 1982, when I got baptised. One thing that makes my faith strong, it is not how the GB is explaning and flip-flopping BS interpretations of things that they construe from dates and historical dates which do not correspond to what it is historically accepted by the whole world, but the profecy of the image of Daniel. We are, I believe, in the period that will see the feet destroyed by God’s Kingdom. I believe that God’s Kingdom will take over. On the other hand I also believe that JWs are the only ones that try to do their best to advocate that Kingdom. Unfortunately, the Org is wrong about many things at its infrasctructure level and has ruined lives of those who allow themselves to be molded by it, instead of following their personal Bible trained consciences. Why am I still in the Org? Because I cannot find any other group that at global level display or try to display fellow feelings. Look at your fellow worshipers at the KH, those are the true christians who strive to make a living and read the Bible and help you when you are in distress, not the GB that sits in an office and debate on how to spend money they have not earned or how to fire those poor volunteers who wanted and believed to dedicate their lives wholesouled to preach the good news, but now find themselves in dire situations….but wait a moment!! I also believe that when Jesus comes at the GT, the GB will be accounted for not being a discreet slave, at least some of them! Another point, any time I teach or comment at the meeting about, 1914, 607 or dates which reflect the GB interpretation and I personally would not put my life at stake for those interpretations, I always say …”the WT interprets…”.
    Well, this is how I feel. Greetings to all.

    • November 9, 2015 at 4:30 pm
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      Giac, I appreciate your sincerity, and I suspect you are a kind and respectful person. The most important thing right now is that you seem to recognize that the Organization is not teaching truth to the extent that you would expect it to if it truly had God’s backing. If it truly was a Holy Spirit-directed organization, there would be zero false predictions, zero false teachings based on misinterpretations that have led to the death of many faithful Witnesses, and zero policies that protect pedophiles and seriously endanger children.

      The question I would ask you is this: If, at the end of your life, you were to meet Jesus in order to be judged by him, do you think he would be pleased that you remained attached to an organization that has so profaned the name of God as the Jehovah’s Witnesses religion has?

      There are good people in the Organization. But tragically, they have been misled by a cult. And the billions of hours in field service and millions of pages of literature in hundreds of languages mean very little when the information being spread is false.

      I am personally no longer a man of faith. But, as you have retained your faith, I would recommend [brace yourselves everybody] Robert67’s approach of focusing on the uplifting and helpful things that Jesus taught, being a good person, and placing less value on the idea of there being an organized religion out there that Jesus would approve of. However, if there is one out there, it will not be guilty of the God-dishonoring sins that the JW religion has been guilty of since its very beginning.

      So, if you’re able to leave without losing family and friends, then I hope that one day you will. If, on the other hand, part of your reason for staying is that your entire support system of family and friends would collapse if you did, then you have our sympathy, and you are certainly not alone. Either way, I wish you the best, and I’m glad you are part of the conversations here on this site, Giac.

      I say all of this with respect to you, because I really do get the sense that you are a sincere person with good motives.

    • November 10, 2015 at 5:14 am
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      giac, welcome to the site. I read what you just wrote and realise that you are in a very early transitional stage, but the point is that your eyes have been opened. And that is good.
      JB Reezner has given good advice about your situation. But I do have to tell you something that kind of knocks what you said about the Watchtower being the only one doing the right thing at the moment. I would definitely have to disagree wholeheartedly with that. If they were doing the right thing then what they produce would be good, as in Matthew 7:16 where it says “By their fruits you will recognise them”. Their fruitage is bad, just as this article has pointed out.

      For the first time since I left in 2002, my daughter invited me to go along to her local church the Sunday before last. It was a new experience for her too, as she also was previously a Witness. I found the service very good. The Bible was used in the appropriate places and with good sound Christian advice. The singing was uplifting, with simple themes and the whole atmosphere was refreshing and exciting.

      There was also a lot of referencing to the coming of Jesus Christ. You see a lot of other religions and individuals are on the Watch too. The difference is that they talk about Jesus a lot more than we ever did in the Kingdom Hall. And isn’t that what we should be talking about as the spirit of the anti Christ takes over? It may be in fact that the Witnesses are really out of touch in this respect and fall into that same anti Christ category. After all, they don’t celebrate Christmas and they refuse to use the cross as a symbol of the Christian faith. That could be something to be suspicious about. These people at the church were certainly not ashamed of their faith. There was no compulsion, just a simple service on a Sunday morning without anyone making a mental note of who was missing.

      Anyway, just because Jehovah’s Witnesses prophecy about the last days doesn’t mean they have any exclusive rights over any other faith.

      • November 10, 2015 at 10:55 am
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        “Anyway, just because Jehovah’s Witnesses prophecy about the last days doesn’t mean they have any exclusive rights over any other faith.”

        The JWs do not have the monopoly on salvation as they like to think.

    • November 10, 2015 at 5:15 am
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      @Giac. I understand how you feel. I to was a long time JW, a former elder, a MS,I spoke at assemblies, I even Sponsored refugee JW’s from different parts of the world and stayed at my house for many months
      until they could reestablish themselves in Society, I have had the Governing body stay at my house on their visits more than once,Even recently in the last year the GB had their wife stay at my house during their visit.. My wife is still a JW pioneer, My kids were raised as Jw’s. Our entire
      family were JW’s. We would get personal invites to the annual meetings from the GB themselves..That being said I do know there are nice people in the JW Congregation. The issue with me is after I finally realized the love you talk about is only conditional it isn’t real. What kind of religion will tell members not to talk to their Mother, Father, Children family, friends etc.? I could no longer be affiliated with a group like that despite the fact they claim to be in a spiritual paradise.The other issue I had was what they teach is JUST NOT TRUE.Sure a few things may be biblical, the hope of the kingdom in Daniel the 2nd Chapter or Matthew the 6th chapter but their interpretation is just one of many about the kingdom. Many other religions believe close to the same thing about the kingdom but the JW’s are the only ones that have this FAKE 1914, 1918, 1919 nonsense that goes along with t and that Jesus “CAME” in 1914 but no one cane see him? I always doubted the 2nd coming of Jesus in 1914 and took me years to come to honest truth with it that it is just a fabrication by the WT. I can not teach that or pretend to teach it. Also,there are so many other things that they teach that is off the wall.

      I think you are impressed bc you feel their is a brotherhood and you are part of something that is bigger than ourselves? I know the feeling but I believe you could find the same “brotherhood” with other groups themselves. The Mormons, the 7th day Adventists, the Pentecostals, the Church of Christ and many others have a form of brotherhood like the JW’s in that they stick together and “HELP” one another to a certain degree. Although my personal exxperience is the JW’s and especially the ORG of the WT does not help their followers very much at all exept perhaps in an extreme emergency like a flood, earthquake etc.

      So how could I go to the KH or door-door and share that info as bible truth? The over lapping generation, the new teaching on Gog of Magog,the new teaching of the F&D Slave being the GB only?
      The list can go on and on from the inception of the WT until today. If the JW have the truth they should be able to prove it beyond doubt right? Gaic, I appreciate your desire to be involved and feel loved and that is not a bad thing but please remmber as I and thousands of others have realized you are only shown “LOVE” if you stay in the BOX. it is not unconditional it is very structured and very limited if you can call it love at all. You sound like a good person and I wish you continued happiness. We all find our way in this life and I am sure you will find yours at your own speed.

      • November 12, 2015 at 6:53 am
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        Reply to Holy Connoli WOW What a history! What a pedigree. Well dosen’t it just goes to show a brother like you doing all the stuff, well involved and priveledged, and in the know with the right people STILL saw it for the false place that it is. Hats off to you HC because you could have stayed in your comfortable warm elevated place and just disruguard your conscience but you speak out. That is brave and honourable and I thankyou that you still speak out.I think this shows that all walks and ranks of life can see the lies and corruption and will hopefully escape the ruination that is the tower.ruthlee

      • November 12, 2015 at 8:36 am
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        HC you are of true value to this site.

    • November 10, 2015 at 6:58 am
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      You’ve already received some good sound comments to help you think critically so I’ll add one thing in addition to that. The image in Daniels prophecy as depicted by watchtower is nothing but a plagiarized interpretation. It was borrowed from the millerites and they put their own watchtower spin on it. Don’t believe me? Look it up. That’s what most of here did to discover the lie we’ve been fed.

      I would not use watchtower dogma to guide my dog let alone my life. Not anymore and neither should you.

      • November 10, 2015 at 10:05 am
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        “It was borrowed from the millerites and they put their own watchtower spin on it”.

        When you research the origin of the WT’s doctrines, you will find that this is the case with most of the doctrines which the WT claims make JWs unique. This point was also made by M. James Penton who researched the origin of the WT’s doctrines and documented his findings in his book: “APOCALYPSE DELAYED: THE STORY OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, 3rd. edition:

        “Like the Millerites and various Adventists before them, JWs are the American heirs of nonconformist British Puritanism, and that they are more closely related to the many churches and sects of US Evangelical fundamentalism than even they or Evangelicals would like to admit.”

        “If they are unique in many ways – as they undoubtedly are – it is simply because of the particular theological combinations and permutations of their doctrines rather than because of their novelty.”

        A signicant portion of the JW’s teachings are nothing more than permutations and combinations of doctrines that existed prior to and during the time that their founder Charles Taze Russell was alive………I suppose it can be argued that the Holy Spirit told Russell which permutations and combinations of doctrines to choose.

    • November 10, 2015 at 11:21 am
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      I appreciate your honest comment – but you must know that if “they” knew you were on this site they’d DF you. I think you know what you need to do.

    • November 13, 2015 at 1:36 am
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      You are absolutely right!

  • November 9, 2015 at 4:03 am
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    Why do many JWs try to convince people that they have studied many religions and this is the BEST or CLOSEST THING to the truth? They say things like: Of all the religions I’ve studied this seems the most sincere.

    But how many religions have these people really studied?
    Did you know that there are over 34 thousand sects of Christianity alone, I have not even started on Buddhism,Jhudism or Hinduism. So next time a JW states that he studied so many religions. Ask him/her how many exactly have they studied. Of the over 34,000 groups or Christian organizations in existance, how many have you actually studied?

    • November 9, 2015 at 3:59 pm
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      Unitarian or faiths which believe the Almighty is a single person are very few, most other faith groups consider the deity a threesome of sorts.
      If you look for faiths which are christian AND worship an Almighty who is a singular person [as the Jews]…

      I doubt you will meet or find more than around 20 chioces.

  • November 9, 2015 at 4:16 am
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    giac, I really don’t understand why you are still in the Organization when you realize that you are teaching lies to people when you go to service and when you answer at the meetings.

    Also, you think the Organization is loving. If you know what the real history of the Organization is and if you know the Society is lying about 607 B.C.E. and you dare to tell anybody about them joining with the United Nations for ten years and if you say anything about how they misquote what people have to say to prove their doctrines and cover up for pedophiles, you will be kicked out so quick, it will make your head spin. That is okay with you?

    That “love” that you think they have for you is conditional. If you tell anybody at all about any doubts you have in the “truth”, you will either be disfellowshipped or marked. What kind of “love” is that?

    As far as trying to find people who will help you when you are in distress, that isn’t going to happen either. If you are having problems, they will run the other way. They don’t want to be bothered with your problems. They have way too much on their plates to be bothered with every person’s “problems” in the congregation. When they come over to “shepherd” you, they only want to hear good things.

    Are you a publisher, an elder, a ministerial servant, a man, a woman? What has been your experience as to when you had problems, they came to help you? How long have you been baptized?

    When you talk about how they help you when you are in distress, are you only talking about when there is some disaster and the Society stepped in to help?

    They only help other Witnesses, not like what Jesus taught with the Good Samaritan illustration. If that person has insurance, they will ask for the insurance money when the insurance money comes in. They do the work so the Society can get the “donation” when the insurance company pays off. The Society loves it when a national disaster like that happens in countries like the United States. To them, all the work the brothers and sisters do (free of charge), the Society sees that as a cash cow.

    Can you imagine being a person with no food or clothing and you see Jehovah’s Witnesses helping the people standing right next door to you getting good and clothing but you are not “worthy” because you aren’t in their select group (religion)?

    Other religions don’t do that. They don’t ask you what religion you are first before helping you. The JW religion is not charitable.

    You might look at that as a good thing, but I don’t. If I saw an injured or starving person, I would not first ask what religion they were before helping them. That is not what Jesus would have done.

    • November 9, 2015 at 9:11 am
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      @ Caroline,
      I got baptised in 1982, at the age of 17. I served at Bethel also, for 5 years. I also served as MS. Now I am only a publisher. I teach to people the Bible, the Good News and what Jesus commanded his followers to teach. Is this wrong in your opinion. If you consider yourself a christian you would do the same with or wothout the GB! There is no flaw with Jesus’ teachings. As far as congregations are concerned, I always found to be loving towards me and I reciprocate. I am sorry if you dod not experienced it.

      • November 9, 2015 at 2:01 pm
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        giac, the congregation I went to was also very loving and kind to me until I discovered they were lying about 607 B.C.E. and said something to my cousin and my children and my husband who then all turned me into the elders and when they came to talk to me, I told them about it and they took away the call in pass code for the meetings and slandered me throughout the circuit and gave a marking talk on me. Until all that happened, I thought they were my friends too. Now I know what conditional love is all about. What has been your experience when it comes to telling them about Watchtower lies?

    • November 10, 2015 at 5:28 am
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      Yes, Caroline, that used to peeve me too the way they would say “We help our brothers first and then we help anybody else”. I could never quite get that one. It sounded so selective. Apart from the occasional good turn one brother would do for another brother, which was commendable, I never saw anyone representing the Society ever open their wallet for anybody. They were a tight fisted bunch I must say. From now on giac take note of the generosity of the governing body. It’s not really that great.

    • November 10, 2015 at 12:12 pm
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      After a particularly nasty hurricane here, when I was still active, I was put on a list to possibly get some help from the bros and sis’s with some cleanup at the place I had at the time. I didn’t put myself on the list. But before anyone came out, someone I didn’t even know called me and asked me (among other things) if I was regular in field service. Yuckkkk.

      Even though it can be argued that an organization has the right to help its own people first, to have field service hours factor into the worthiness of a Witness receiving help is gross.

      To be fair, I’m not saying low (or no) hours automatically disqualified ones from getting help. I just wanted to share that awkward little episode to make the point that, at that time, not just whether or not you were a Witness mattered, but HOW MUCH of a Witness you were was evaluated before you could get help.

      On a side note, I actually felt a little sorry for the sister on the other end of the line because I had the feeling she was NOT enjoying being stuck with that particular “priviledge”.

  • November 9, 2015 at 4:19 am
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    Mac fan they will probably bring up the trinity.

  • November 9, 2015 at 5:09 am
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    I feel like I know you…maybe I do…….but you have just described my life…with all its fears….social and emotional deprivations…and the feeling of never knowing unconditional love…. Im a prisoner John but like you my mind is free…. sometimes its not enough…thank you.

  • November 9, 2015 at 8:53 am
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    Thank you John for writing and posting this great article. We couldn’t make this stuff up. You covered so many points; exposing the evil WT organization and the detrimental impact it has on family.

  • November 9, 2015 at 9:25 am
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    Giac,

    *What is the future of mankind as exposed by the holy scriptures?

    *Have you ever done your own research to find out the number of persons who have been born over the last 2000 years? If all of these persons were to be resurrected on earth, how many persons per square kilometre would there be given that there must also be land for non-residential uses such as food production, forests, hills, mountains, valleys, recreational areas, industrial activity, transportation infrastructure etc.? Would the number of persons living per square kilometre be ecologically sustainable?

    *What would this mean if all of the dead since mankind’s beginning are to be resurrected on earth, will they plus all the JW Armageddon survivors fit? Would the number of persons living per square kilometre be ecologically sustainable?

    *Would the earth look like what is portrayed in the WT’s depictions of the new system – luxury houses separated by many kilometres of parkland, a paradise of sparsely populated tracts of land, filled with smiling children living in mansions?

    *Since no one will be dying in paradise and given your answers to the questions above, will there be room for any children given that:
    1. the WT’s depictions of the new system show that children will be living on the paradise earth?
    2. Isaiah 65:17- 25 which is used by the WT to describe the perfect living conditions on the paradise earth states in verse 23: “They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth CHILDREN for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord, and their OFFSPRING with them.”

    *Are there scriptures which state that the earth will NOT last forever? Are these scriptures literal or figurative? How do you know?

    *Are there scriptures which state that the earth will last forever? Are these scriptures literal or figurative? How do you know?

    *What proof can you provide that we are living in the period that will see the feet of the image in the book of Daniel destroyed by God’s Kingdom?

    *If you feel that life was better in the past compared to today, which century would you pick to live in?

    *What will happen when God’s kingdom takes over?

    *What else will happen apart from the accountability of the GB when Jesus comes at the Great Tribulation?

    • November 9, 2015 at 10:16 am
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      ******If you feel that life was better in the past compared to today, which century would you live in AND WHY?

      • November 10, 2015 at 5:27 am
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        @dee. Hi Dee, in response to Gaic i think we need to let him find his way on his own terms. I know we all mean well and we all have had different measures of pain with the WT and being JW’s. Some have had extreme pain and some enjoyed their JW life but just realized it just isn’t true and could no longer go along with a fake lie and story and follow a cult. Gaic isn’t there yet so personally I think we should let him experience at his own pace. As far as all your scriptural questions there are many that talk about a New heaven and new earth where their will be no more pain and no more suffering we all know that from being JW’s and from reading the bible. Of course everything is subject to interpretation and this is not the place to argue doctrine. I am sure Gaic will find his way in his own time. We are here for support of people like him and others as well. I know Caroline also has had some bad experiences in the JW world and you as well and I myself have had lot’s of pain dealing and trying to sort out the JW lie so we all move at a different pace.

        • November 10, 2015 at 3:27 pm
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          @Holy Connoli

          I thoroughly agree with you that we need to let Giac find his/her own way on his/ her own terms. Allow me, please, to explain why I asked Giac those questions.

          I have come to realize that many JWs (including myself) get lured into the religion because they come to believe that they will live forever on a paradise earth. I have even heard some JWs say that living forever on a paradise earth is more logical than going to heaven. This belief traps many persons in the religion and once hooked on this belief nothing else matters, they then accept everything else as gospel without question or they dismiss the lies, ever changing doctrines and false prophecies etc. of the GB as being due to the GB’s fallibility and after all, only the Pope has claimed to be infallible (but nevertheless this is still Jehovah’s organization).

          They do not see the lies, false dates, false prophecies andvever changing doctrines etc. as a reason to leave the JWs. Any subsequent ‘refinement’ or revision of the JW’s doctrines is not a turn-off for them because the GB has never claimed to be infallible. The thing that matters the most to these JWs is that Armageddon is coming and they are never going to die but will live forever on a paradise earth.

          Most JWs believe the WT’s promise of a paradise earth without doing their own research to see that it is not logistically possible for all the resurrected dead since mankind’s beginning plus the JW Armageddon survivors to fit on the earth and that this perhaps explains why Christians believe they will go to heaven.

          Many after being shown the scriptures that the earth remains forever succumb to the WT’s mental gymnastics and accept that this is so and dismiss those scriptures which state that the earth will not last forever as being figurative. Getting persons to believe that the earth will remain forever is crucial if they are to believe that they will not die but will live forever on a paradise earth.

          I therefore find it necessary to not only help JWs see that the GB has made false predictions, told lies and their ever changing doctrines but to also help JWs to see that the WT’s promise of a paradise earth is not possible as this promise is what traps many in the religion.

          Regards.

  • November 9, 2015 at 9:27 am
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    I no longer believe in organized religion. I read the Bible on my own, talk about God and Jesus to others and have some good discussions.

    I realize that some people need the structure of organized religion and I do not fault them for that. But I do not believe that the JW religion is the Best or Closest thing to the truth.

    I believe that there are so many good people within the world, some belong to organized religions, some don’t. Jesus died and sacrificed for everyone – not for just those of the witness religion.

    But the witness religion still believes they are the only chosen people and have the truth – But other religions believe they are the only chosen people. God knows who his chosen people are – men don’t have that insight – in my humble opinion.

  • November 9, 2015 at 1:18 pm
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    Good article, John. Until finding this website I was not aware of the number of silent sheep suffering behind the walls of the Kingdom Halls. Fear is such a wonderful thing. I’m sure that Jesus and his disciples used such tactics to keep their people in line too.

    As bad as it is, I think this doubling down by the GB is a good thing. The closer an organization is to crumbling the more radical it becomes, the more oppressive it acts. Obviously the seams are coming apart on Star Ship Watchtower and its officers are franticly attempting to salvage whatever they can before it comes apart.

    Yes, great harm is being caused by the dictatorial enforcement of non-biblical policy, ruining many lives in the process. May it soon end. At present we cannot stop the devastation that creates, but we can be there to assist the victims who greatly need our support.

    While it’s true that many who leave Jehovah’s Witnesses lose believe in God, there are others who have given up on the Society but still hold belief in a higher deity… creator. Our battle then should be against the ruthless antics of the GB and the cancer they spread by false reasoning (dogma) and bullying threats.

    Fear of eternal damnation keeps lots of people in line… not just witnesses. If we can somehow mitigate that fear down to a reasonable level, it may be possible to help a person get his or her life back. If we can help those persons wake up to the true power in their minds and the resilient spirit of their hearts… that there is a fulfilling life out there after Watchtower… it can go a long way to assisting with their recovery, and their taking the needed steps to get out from among them.

    • November 9, 2015 at 3:04 pm
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      Lately what’s being demonstrated by some on the site is that without the Borg, you’ll eventually become a bitter Bible and its God thrasher. I hope people visiting this site don’t judge it by those comments.

      • November 9, 2015 at 4:00 pm
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        @Robert67:

        Just wondering, what do you think of the comment posted by “RC” regarding the god of the Israelites and Abraham?

        • November 10, 2015 at 9:50 am
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          It wasnt a different God, just Elohim(hebrew word for God) If you read chapter 3 of Exodus there you have Elohim telling Moses that he was the Elohim of his forefathers and Ehyeh-Asher-ehyeh ( I AM) eventually in verse 15 when Moses wants a specific name to represent versus just Elohim( hundreds of Elohims worshiped in his day) or ehyeh-Asher-ehyeh showing bad grammar on his part, Elohim tells him that he is Yaweh, that is his name for all generations. Today some translate it as Jehovah, which I use, but also my God or my Elohim.

          • November 10, 2015 at 11:12 am
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            Hi robert67,
            just have a look at this link. You may not agree with it but you may get an idea

            contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/

          • November 10, 2015 at 12:23 pm
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            @RC, very interesting notions on the possible origin story of the Southern tribes of Judah, I like the fact that atleast their existence at that point and time is acknowledged, unlike many other sources.

            As far as the argument of the later compilation and motives for these, well, I know for a fact that I could destroy the entire biblical explanation by just tweaking here and there and inserting whatever hypothesis my imagination can conjure up. I don’t because I do for a fact believe in Christ and his word and he acknowledged many of the far flung narratives of the Hebrew Scriptures as being fact.

            Luke 24:27,John 5:46,47 Jesus confirms Moses as author of the law.

            Mathew 13:14-15 Jesus confirmed Isaiah as author of book of Isaiah

            Mathew 24:15 Jesus confirmed Daniel as author of the book of Daniel

            Mathew 19:4,5 ; 23:35 Jesus confirmed Adam and Eve as real people

            Luke 17:26-28 Jesus refers to both Noah and Lot

            John 8:56-58 Jesus confirms Abraham

            Mark 10:6-9 Creation

            Mathew 24:37-39 Great flood/ice age

            Luke 17:29,32 Soddom and Gomorah

            John 6:32 Feeding by Manna

            John 3:14 Curing by serpent

            Luke 4:25-27 Elijah and Elisha

            Mathew 12:39,40 Jonah

            In Mathew 4:4 he said
            “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.”

            I cannot place the utterances, as well collected as they might be, of a man over those of what I have come to know as Gods word.

          • November 10, 2015 at 2:07 pm
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            Robert, you confirmed what I was saying about it being men who wrote the Bible when you put down the scriptures where Jesus confirmed that Moses wrote the law and Isaiah wrote Isaiah and Daniel was the author of Daniel. Jesus didn’t say that Jehovah God wrote the Law and it wasn’t God who wrote Isaiah and it wasn’t God who wrote Daniel. Also, that is why the Hebrew Scriptures are very important to the Green Scriptures, as per the rest of the scriptures you listed. Without the Hebrew Scriptures, the Greek Scriptures are meaningless.

      • November 9, 2015 at 4:06 pm
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        @Robert67:

        My question is with regard to “RC’s” comment made on November 6 at 2:53 pm.

      • November 10, 2015 at 4:58 am
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        Robert67,

        Yet another slander against us atheists, packaged in a passive aggressive comment.

        I have at no time been a “bitter bible and its God thrasher”. That is a slanderous lie.

        On the contrary, Robert, I hope that sincere Christians visiting this site are not stumbled by your unchristian behaviour!

        It is you, Robert, who is a “basher”. All I have done is politely and respectfully highlighted for all the posters here your true, unchristian character, by contrasting your words and behaviour on this site with scriptures from the Holy Bible.

        You have not had the courage or courtesy to address me directly, as I have with you.

        You have not provided a rebuttal to my use of verses from the Holy Bible, and you have clearly not applied any of them, as you continue to slander atheists.

        As you have absolutely no respect or regard for the teachings of Jesus Christ, or God’s word the bible, I am at a loss to describe you, Robert.

        You certainly are not a Christian. You do not love God. These facts are clear for all to see. 1 John 4: 20

        If anyone says, “I love God,” but keeps on hating his brother, he is a liar; for if he doesn’t love his brother who is right there in front of him, how can he love God whom he has never seen?

        Living Bible Edition

        Again, I would like an apology, please.

        You have lost any credibility with me. You have confirmed to me that you are nothing but a sounding brass.

        Why don’t you answer me directly, Robert?

        Why don’t you give me your opinion on the scriptures that I quoted, Robert?

        You really are making yourself look like a fool, Robert, I hope you comprehend that.

        I await with interest, your direct response to my scriptural councel, rather than another tiresome, unchristian rant and slander against atheists.

        Peace be with you, Excelsior!

        • November 10, 2015 at 7:28 am
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          Sorry, folks, Robert67 accused us atheists of being “thrashers” not “bashers”

          Peace be with you, Excelsior!

          • November 10, 2015 at 9:37 am
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            Still true. I do owe you one last response. You obviously have no clue about scripture, all it functions as for you is a stumbling block for yourself and a weapon to stumble others.

            2 Timothy 3:16,17 as overused as it is by the WT states:

            16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the MAN OF GOD may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

            You are NOT a man of god, therefore what is written in it is not for you or your use.

            The Bible in its entirety was not written to us, but for us, with the exception of Christ Gospel. Your just as guilty as the WT of trying to add meaning and interpretation to what is written in it.

            You and others visit this site to twist scripture to indicate otherwise. Just like the WT cult, you prey on people with questions with the sole purpose of creating doubt in Gods word.

            With this I fall back into the subject of this helpful article out of respect for its author.

          • November 11, 2015 at 5:29 am
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            Robert, I want to add to Excelsior’s reply to your last comment as well. You said that “we” use the Bible as stumbling block and that is true for me at least. I think there are many good things in the Bible but I don’t take it as “inspired” of a perfect god but I also see a lot of terrible things in it as well.

            Most atheists became atheists because they actually did read the Bible. That is what did it for me. But I believe that most so-called atheists are actually agnostic or would “believe” if there was any real evidence for a God.

            We were always taught as Witnesses that God is from everlasting to everlasting and we puny humans can’t comprehend that and so we just accepted that and didn’t waste energy trying to understand that concept.

            Nobody knows how life began and there are no original written records that we can get our hands on that explain when life began or how it began on the earth (the Bible isn’t the only book that has it’s ideas of Gods and how life began. There were many gods, way before the Bible was written).

            If that was the case, it would end all debate on how life began on the earth or the universe but no such luck.

            To me, it is a stupid debate to spend time debating how life began. We all know it is impossible to “create” life out of nothing. Everything on the earth came from a “parent” of some sort. To me to debate, how life began without any solid evidence is futile. I can’t even imagine any God doing it. It is way too far over my head just the same as imagining God being from everlasting to everlasting is over our heads.

            For Bible readers, they simply take as fact that “poof”, God made it. That is too simple for me.

            I think the most important thing is to appreciate that we were given the gift of life and we should make the most of our short years on this earth and try and leave this planet, having done something good for mankind, rather than debating how it began.

      • November 10, 2015 at 7:23 am
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        Hi Robert67,
        When i read the Bible i see a dichotomy of sorts between God the Father as defined by Christ and Yahweh. The Old testament seems to be filled with rape, murder , torture and brutalities which would horrify any one. I think the god mentioned in the old testament and the new are different. When i see the JW quoting extensively and reading from the Old testament , it really scares me . The JW seems to have been relatively harmless when it was under Pastor Russell and Rutherford.It turned into a cult under the leadership of Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz(who by all reports was half mad. That Raymond Franz was related to this joker is for me one of life’s greatest ironies).

        • November 10, 2015 at 9:10 am
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          I can’t name one group of people living during the same time as the Moses led Israelites that weren’t living in this environment and reacting to it in order to survive. These laws were meant to conduce these barbaric people’s into an evolution of sorts as pertains to their behavior. All irrelevant in 2015, unless your in the Middle East, North Korea, Watchtower or other barbaric parts of the world that still control their polulations through force. How can anyone have a hang up on a set of laws that were written to and for a people that lived 3,500 years ago? Focus on Christ and his message.

          The Law of Moses was given to point people’s minds forward to Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah-to-come. Once he did come, the Law’s purpose was fulfilled, and it became obsolete. It was not destroyed, but superseded by a higher law, the law of the Gospel. A message of love above all things, Love to God foremost and then our neighbor.

          We are stuck with the burden of having to cope with a vast diversity of Christian church’s. We have learned now,that one of the first disqualifying markers for any of these is to try to kill off the integrity of another. It’s a sibling rivalry amongst Christ followers to see who can get the most attention. Again, Focus on Christ message.

          • November 10, 2015 at 1:35 pm
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            Robert, you ask “How can anyone have a hang up on a set of laws that were written to and for a people that lived 3,500 years ago?”.

            I will tell you why I have a hang up on the Law given through Moses then, since you asked why since supposedly those laws were given to Moses from Jehovah God. What those people were doing around them in those lands, should not have influenced a perfect God.

            1) The law given from Jehovah (supposedly) to Moses condoned human sacrifices: Lev. 27:29, Judges 11:29-39; Numbers 31:31-40
            2) Condoned and promoted animal cruelty: Joshua 11:6; 2 Samuel 8:4
            3) Condoned incest: Genesis 20:11,12
            4) Condoned and promoted slavery: Numbers 31:31-35; Lev. 25:44-45; Exodus 21:27; Eph. 6:5; 1 Tim. 6:1,2 (lots more scriptures about slavery)
            5) Condoned the abuse of slaves: Ex. 21:7, 20,21; Luke 12:47-48
            6) Condoned spousal and child abuse and abortion and rape: Numbers 5:5-31; Deut. 22:13-21, 28,29; Luke 12:47,48
            7) Condoned selling of a man’s children into slavery: Exodus 21:7 (part of the ten commandments)
            8) Condoned child molestation: Numbers 31:17,18
            9) Condoned murder: Exodus 17:13; 32:27; Numbers 21:3,35; Deut. 2:33-34; 3:6; 7:2; 20:16; Joshua 8:22-25; 10:27-40; 11:8-23; 1 Samuel 15:3,7,8

            The Greek scriptures are meaningless without the Hebrew scriptures. It is supposedly the Hebrew Scriptures (the Law) are what pointed the way for Jesus Christ but according to what Jesus said at John 1:17,18, the truth was not through Moses:

            “Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”

            Moses claimed to see God but according to Jesus, no man has seen the Father.

            Was the Bible written by men? There is not even one time in the whole Bible where it says that God either wrote or dictated directly any part of the Bible, even the ten commandments or any of the other commandments found in the Hebrew scriptures.

            To draw attention to what the Bible says, is not trying to convince anybody not to believe in God and if people want to hang on to just the Greek Scriptures, I don’t care.

            I know it gives a lot of comfort to people and I don’t want to take that away from them but on the other hand, they should know about what they believe in too.

          • November 11, 2015 at 4:57 am
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            Hi Robert67,
            Jesus never referred to God as Yahweh. It is the JW who have inserted that in the NWT 237 times in the belief that since Jesus had spoken of the God of Abraham and Issac , it is right to assume that the word “Jehovah” was used in the Greek Scriptures initially and so they were thrilled to discover that they after 2000 years were restoring the Divine Name. If the JW could make this error after having so many resources , what would have stopped the early Bible writers to attribute the God of Abraham and Issac to Jesus . Remember, the Bible writers were all influenced by the sociological and political climates of their times. The Bible leads you to the Man (Christ) who leads you to God. Not the other way round.

            Also you mention some cultures being barbaric in the present day. I will not dispute this however i will bring it to your attention that the JW considered the Babylonian civilization to be nothing more than savages. So it was easy for them to add 20 years to the Destruction of Jerusalem . Unfortunately for them, the Babylonian civilization was very advanced for its age as the unearthing of the cuneiform tablets show. It is now undisputed that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 587 B.C not 607 B.c .This truth helped Carl Olof Jonsonn to get out the cult. There are archaelogical discoveries being made which show that the God of the Cannanite Religion was EL , not Yahweh. Also , El (and in later days Yahweh) was mentioned as the husband of Asherah . The concept of One God started during the reign of King Josaih and solidified during the exile.

            Also, Jesus born of the line of David may not have been as far flung as you may think. Considering that 5% of the world current population is descended from Genghis Khan , with the number of partners David had (probably in the hundreds) , his descendants would have really made a sizeable population of the Jews.

          • November 11, 2015 at 11:21 am
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            In response to comment, that you can’t think of one group of people who lived at time of Moses, who were not barbarians, …who was Job, Elihu, and for that matter the 3 friends. They did seem to have some respectably values.

          • November 12, 2015 at 11:10 am
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            robert67. why are you responding to people like excelsior, rc, and the rest ? they will never appreciate the things your talking about. they think your an idiot, they are drawing you into there twisted world. a lot of the people on the jwsurvey site have serious issues going on in there lifes.

            your looking like a fool.

        • November 10, 2015 at 9:25 am
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          @RC

          Are you an atheist?

          • November 10, 2015 at 10:02 am
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            Hi dee,
            No i am not an atheist. I believe in God. It is out of respect for the rules of this blog i have not discussed my beliefs about God. It is when i saw the disturbing way Abraham’s story was being used by JW did i feel compelled to say something about it. Apologies to John Redwood , but i think he was really disturbed as much as i was.

          • November 10, 2015 at 10:28 am
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            @RC

            Are you an ex-JW?

        • November 10, 2015 at 10:34 am
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          @RC

          Are you an ex-JW?

          • November 10, 2015 at 10:49 am
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            Hi dee,
            sorry i have posted below my response. But no i am not an ex-JW.

        • November 10, 2015 at 2:37 pm
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          Old Testament time compared to ours was far different. At the time many people on earth lived in the Middle East. Life was cheap. People were worshipping false Gods and their laws were perverted. There was very little knowledge around. Morals were non existent.

          Just look at what has happened in the Middle East recently and you can see what the people were like who lived round about the Israelites. God had promised a savior through the line of David. The Jews had to be protected at all costs, and protected from remaining uncontaminated with false teachings. God’s ways of doing things probably shocks a lot of people, but perhaps that was what was needed at the time. Remember there is a time for every season.

          Jesus came and corrected all that stuff. He showed by his example how caring people should be of others. All the other stuff is important but that is not the focus right now. Especially now in this cold hearted world, do we need that love that Jesus lived by. Woops, sorry I’m getting preachy again. Sorry Lloyd.

          • November 11, 2015 at 2:03 am
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            Ive thought about all of this and it is just a thought Maybe the whole elaborate jewish system was just to protect the DNA blood line of Jesus. All the other jews got the benefit of the law if they stuck to the rules but they mostly were just as degenerate as the tribes surrounding them. They just had more rules to obey which made them act crazy. (any parallells?).Any way if this was true JC came did his job game over the Hebrew script becomes historic and interesting but no longer applicable. So to the enlightened new Christian all those petty rules and blood lust becomes distasteful and foreign. So if we start to cherrypick the old ways and follow a few of the rules from back then, then we will start to mimic their attitude and behaviour ie brutal, vengeful, and it serves no purpose it is dead end and annihilistic.The new freedom in Christ was to liberate and centered on people working things out for themselves but as always mankind wants to dominate and control.So we are back to square one with this little sect. A bunch of sincere people who have gone mad and crazy with the endless rules and petty laws that have no bearing on christian life. To me nothing changes same daft stuff, different set of people.The only difference now is that we can break free but its a slow process and painful at times. Just a word to the athiests and the believers. Just chill stop bickering we are trying to get along with each other just agree to differ .As iv’e said before i have a strong faith but i really do like to hear what non believers think because they have a different take on the bible and have clear logical arguments which Imight have been closed to. SO lets try to keep the peace and enjoy alternative viewpoints it makes for such interesting reading and no one is going to convert the other thats not the point. thanks folks. ruthlee

          • November 11, 2015 at 4:46 am
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            ruthlee, it is so funny but the thought of protecting the bloodline for Jesus is exactly what I was thinking about last night and so I looked up the account of Judah who is named at Matthew 1:3 as an ancestor of Jesus at Genesis chapter 39.

            Here is the account of how Judah “took” a Canaanite woman and she bore him three sons. Then Judah “took” a wife (Tamar) for his oldest son Er but Jehovah didn’t like Er so Jehovah killed Er before Tamar had children by Er. Then the second son was supposed to have relations with Tamar but he wasted his semen on the ground so Jehovah killed that one too.

            Then Tamar was supposed to wait for the youngest son to grow up to have relations with her but Judah didn’t fulfill his promise because he was afraid something bad would happen to that boy too.

            All that time, Tamar was living with her own father but was not supposed to marry another man because she was supposed to be bringing up a man child from her first husband Er.

            In time, Judah’s wife died and so he had relations with Tamar (thinking she was a harlot) and got her pregnant (not knowing because she covered her face). When Judah found out that Tamar had gotten pregnant, he said she was to be “burned” (Gen. 38:24) because she had committed prostitution.

            But going back in Genesis 38:21 this is what it says in the NWT “And he (Judah) went inquiring of the men of her place, saying: “Where is that temple prostitute in Enaim along the road?” But they kept saying: “No temple prostitute has ever been in this place.”

            Notice that Judah wanted to have Tamar “burned” because he thought she had committed an act of prostitution, but in verse 21, Judah is asking about a “temple prostitute” that he had had intercourse with.

            Did we ever pay any attention to the fact that they had “temple” prostitutes then, even before the Exodus account where the freed Israelites were to build a temple to Jehovah? Did we pay any attention the word “temple” there? Did we ever pay any attention to the fact that Judah wanted his daughter-in-law burned for prostitution, when he had committed an act of prostitution himself? Did we not see that it was perfectly alright for them to have temple prostitutes then? Did we ever think about how hypocritical and disgusting this man was who was an ancestor of Jesus?

            Would a perfect God “protect” the seed of the Jews through a man like this? Why would it be okay for the temple of Jehovah God have temple prostitutes? Why would be okay for a perfect God to allow for the men to go to prostitutes but if his daughter-in-law played a prostitute, she should have been burned?

            Why doesn’t the Society talk about any of these things? No they don’t. As a matter of fact, I remember not that many years ago at a district convention, they had a drama about Judah and Tamar like it was all a good thing that Judah and Tamar did. There was not a word at how disgusting a man, Judah was. Why did they do that? It was for the very same reason that you mentioned in your comment; it was to protect the lineage of Jesus blood line. Couldn’t Jehovah have chosen a better character than Judah to produce the “seed” through Abraham?

            If you start bringing up questions about this to your elders, you will be called on the carpet and to “trust” in Jehovah but what they really mean is to trust in the Society instead. Whatever excuse the Society comes up with for a disgusting character such as Judah, we are to accept as the “gospel” and not to question it.

            We are not to “think” about anything we read in the Bible. We are to let the Society do all the thinking for us; in other words, we have to be brain dead to be a Witness and if not and we start asking questions, we will be kicked out and shunned.

          • November 11, 2015 at 7:31 am
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            I forgot to add something to my reply to ruthlee about the account of Judah and Tamar. Tamar was three months pregnant when Judah wanted Tamar burned. In the United States, when somebody murders a pregnant woman, that person is charged with the murder of two people (the mother and the innocent child as well), not just the one.

            This is the person (Judah) that the Society decided to have a drama about at the district assembly a few years ago. I remember it well. If there was a movie about such a happening today, it would surely be rated R for sex and violence.

    • November 10, 2015 at 9:25 pm
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      Well stated! The doubling down is indeed causing many to simply walk away. It is at that critical moment that many are turning to websites like this.
      This past weekend my inactive mother in law was talking to my true believer sister in law about a faithful witness family they know. I over heard as I walked by but the family that left were faithful for years and just suddenly stopped attending meetings and service. When they were asked why they said ” the witnesses are a cult and we want nothing to do with that”. Just like that an entire family left the cult in an instant. All because the information is available for them to research but also, this can’t be minimized, because the gb are narcissistic sociopaths tightening their grip. They have themselves to blame for many leaving and they are so arrogant that they can’t see it. Like all cults they blame a scapegoat, apostates or satan.

  • November 9, 2015 at 4:33 pm
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    Greetings,

    Let me start by saying I realize my comment is not relevant to the article. However this is an attempt to address a couple things mentioned in the comments. I am not a defender of the org but credit where credit is due. I missed the meeting about the go bags but I’m assuming this has to do with disasters. If you live in an area prone to disasters and who doesn’t with all the things that happen, a go bag is a good idea. In the past I have assisted with disaster relief and have seen people with only the shirts on their back. At least a little preparation is a good idea. You all know the drill, water, batteries, flashlights, phone numbers and so on. Keep meds and important papers handy and ready to grab. That’s common sense. A comment was also made with respect to insurance proceeds. One disaster situation I helped with some of the witnesses thought their insurance money was so they could go on vacation. Your insurance settlement is to restore your financial situation regarding your property. When the brothers put that new roof and siding on your home you should pay for it. That’s what your insurance is for. It really doesn’t matter how the society uses it, you did benefit. The brothers also feed hundreds of volunteers that come to provide relief. Some of the friends open their homes to the volunteers so at times they receive funds to provide meals at their home. I agree the society is spending too much time asking for money and I for one don’t intend to pay for child abuse settlements, but when it comes to disasters and insurance, if you are the beneficiary of their assistance it would be most appropriate to hand the money over. Remember you can use anyone you want to do your repairs. You are not obligated to use the brothers. Ask yourself would any other contractor work for nothing. Regards

    • November 9, 2015 at 5:12 pm
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      @eyes opened

      Thanks for your comment.

      I think the WTBTS makes it difficult for persons to make fair comments about their financial situation as the WTBTS is averse to making audited financial statements available to the public.
      This was also evident from the May 2015 JW Broadcasting episode done by GB member Stephen Lett in which he stated that more money was going out than coming in yet no actual numbers of income and expenditure were provided so that viewers could see what the projected shortfall is.

      Without the WTBTS’ transparency regarding their financials persons can only imagine and guess what is going on with donations and wonder if the GB has something to hide why the WTBTS is not transparent with its financials regarding the worldwide work.

    • November 9, 2015 at 5:52 pm
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      @ eyes opened, here in the U.S. when Catrina struck, there were a lot of brothers and sisters who had to wait and wait until the Witnesses could come and do the work and the Society made that clear to those Witnesses that they were to wait to have the Society’s workers do the work.

      I agree, that the insurance money was to go for the work and the homeowners should not have kept the money but the Society gains very much when there is a disaster like that and they benefit from all the “free” labor that the brothers and sisters put in to fix up those homes.

      If fair is fair, then those brothers and sisters should have gotten the money for their work. That is my point.

      The Society expects that there will be lots of brothers and sisters flooding to the disaster area to help rebuild but that work isn’t done because they are a charity. It is charitable on the backs of brothers and sisters helping out the Society, not the householders.

      That work is done so the Society can get money out it by all the free labor done by the brothers and sisters. It is the motive of “helping” is my problem. They aren’t good for goodness sake. They are good for the money they can get and many times, those brothers and sisters have to wait months and months to have the Society’s free labor force to come and work on their homes. It isn’t charity. It’s a way to make money off of a disaster.

      • November 9, 2015 at 6:37 pm
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        Caroline You make good points. If the friends felt they had to wait on the society for repairs, that does kind of smack of greed. There is just no perfect solution. Regards

  • November 9, 2015 at 10:01 pm
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    Hey everyone so I had the worst Sunday this week during the watchtower study. It really made me mad and I really have a hatred for the GB now. In the September 15, 2015 study edition the chapter titled ‘Is your conscience a reliable guide’ on paragraph 12 it asks “Does my conscience move me to shun sports that are aggressive, competitive, nationalistic, or violent?” So now we can’t even play or waych our favorite sports sich as football or basketball amd I love football and soccer. This is getting really ridiculous it really is. These stupid, extravagant, absurd rules are ruining lives. First we myst disown people who defy “Jehovah”, even family, then we have to dress according to the GB’s liking, now we can’t support any sports because of the competitiveness and aggressiveness. I bet if they catch us we’ll be disfellowshipped right? So God hated people who play a sport and they deserve to be punished? How can any JW after reading that lesson believe that these are “Jehovah’s” standards? I read the whole bible and it says in proverbs there are 7 things God hates. Pride, gluttony, envious individuals, laziness, greed, wrathful individuals, and lustful individuals. How can he hate a sport but love the fat slobs that come and give those talks and demonstrations on stage. This is going too far and needs to be stopped. My friend just got Disfellowshipped and my sister has before. I speak for us who have the experience even though I’m 18 and I pray for all of you. The GB have to be stopoed. I’ll be actively posting I enjoy talking to others with the same views.

    • November 10, 2015 at 2:27 pm
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      I have yet (being a member of numerous Spanish speaking congregations) to meet an elder that is not an absolute Futbol fanatic. Meeting at homes wearing jerseys, stickers on cars, knowing season long stats. I also know for a fact that they consider themselves an exception to any of these rules meant for the lowly rank and file only. Real Madrid!

  • November 10, 2015 at 5:25 am
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    Well written John, and shows your depth of experience.
    The modern day equivalent of Abrahams sacrificing his son is of course Jdub parents withholding the good chance of saving their child’s life with a blood transfusion.
    The main difference if you believe in the bible and it’s stories, is that Abraham actually knew he was sacrificing to his God, and had the confidence that interacting personally with his God would provide.
    By contrast Jdubs are just ‘Flying By The Arse Of Their Pants’ with sheer faith in 7 men and their writings.

  • November 10, 2015 at 9:18 am
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    I thought I would add to the pervious comments about the relief work in connection to hurricane Katernia.
    There were 5000+ witnesses that came from all over, some spending more then a year helping out. It was truly a beautiful thing.
    But, on the other side….Little known, the Society made a boat load of money off this…Congregations all over sent in 1000’s in immediate money’s, companies both jw/nonjw Contributed goods and services, when a home was repaired the publisher on completion got a breakdown of “costs” ie..bill..of course they didn’t have to pay it, but it was known who did and didn’t, furthermore if the homeowner recived a insurance payout, they were visited by a couple of local brothers connected to the relief committee to remind them of what was done, of course all that money flowed directly to headquarters. ..
    I don’t want to piss on the sacrifices that individuals made, because they really did give it all they had. I just feel the organization “took advantage of the situation” and has been less then honest about what it really “cost” them.

    • November 10, 2015 at 9:44 pm
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      Thank you for mentioning this. I was involved in many relief efforts and one thing that is clear is that it cost the branch nothing. They made a killing because the labor was/is all free. I would also like to add that they made liberal use of materials that were provided by the government and other relief agencies so its not like the disaster victims were reimbursing for materials either.
      It’s presented one way in their videos and magazines. The reality is much different. Especially when you talk to those that were actually there.

  • November 10, 2015 at 9:36 am
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    Here are my thoughts about this article, Doctrine and Loyalty Whatever the Cost. I love it. You see this article is an expression of Thought of people in the process of waking up. That is why it is so good. All of us will need emotional support and will deal with negative feelings. I compare all of this to when my Leg was amputated when I was ten years old. I felt negative about my leg and I had a chip on my shoulder for several years. But something positive came from it. I received help from the state to get vocational skills. At the time I had to go to vocational school to keep disability. I wanted to pioneer. Thank goodness my parents didn’t want me to lose disability. The reaction to Waking up reminds me of when I lost my leg. It becomes a positive experience because reality is so much better than living the lie.

    • November 10, 2015 at 11:59 am
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      @Alexandria R

      I like your positive energy/ your positive perspective and that good does indeed come from adversity as the saying goes.

      Regards.

  • November 10, 2015 at 9:59 am
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    My family Being so dedicated to a religion impacts my life as much as my leg. Each individual deals with waking up at their own speed. And nobody is wrong when it comes to their own speed as they personally deal with being awake.

    • November 13, 2015 at 3:33 am
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      So sorry to hear about what happened to your leg but you just made such a profound statement about comparing it to waking up from the Watchtower. Good on you. Waking up is probably one of the hardest things we have to face.

  • November 10, 2015 at 10:44 am
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    Hi dee,
    no i am no ex-JW. My cousin has been in this cult for more than 7 Years . I knew vaguely that he was involved with some Christian Missionaries that was the sum of my knowledge till last year. When his father told me about JW then i decided to see what this was all about. I walked into KH with my cousin and frankly came back impressed. However after interacting with my cousin i found some abnormalities in his behaviour. Decided to read about JW and to my horror found the truth about it. Karen Morgan , barbara anderson, raymund franz,paul grundy and cedars himself along with taze.co. Finally the child abuse trials. Decided no matter what i am getting my cousin out. Have been trying to do that for the last few months.

    • November 10, 2015 at 11:28 am
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      @RC

      I gather that you are not an atheist but you are a non-Christian who was never a JW. Thanks for your non-atheist, non-Christian comments regarding the way in which Abraham’s sacrifing his son was used by the WT to make their point.

      I personally welcome all perspectives and all viewpoints be they from atheists, non-atheists, Christians, non-Christians as it is my personal belief that if one is to find his/her own truth, then one must consider all angles, all viewpoints, all perspectives, all sides of the story in order to find their own truth.

      It is my personal belief that it is up to each individual to do their own research of all the viewpoints, all the perspectives, all the angles and all sides of the story, come to their own conclusions and find their own truth. It is for refusing to do this why I ended up in the JW religion only to discover that it nothing but crap.

      • November 11, 2015 at 5:17 am
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        Hi dee,
        Well you are out now. Hope my cousin does too. I have no problems to what my cousin decides is the truth as long it is not JW.

      • November 13, 2015 at 3:39 am
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        Well said, Dee. And you are right. We should appreciate John Cedars for allowing us to use his website and for doing something positive. He’s been thrown lemons and he’s made lemonade as they say.

  • November 10, 2015 at 10:47 am
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    @Anthony,

    You are correct, we that were indoctrinated for so long do need to move on and possibly forgive to some degree. However, due the damage and harm that this destructive cult has inflicted on so many for over a century now, it’s hard to not harbor ill feelings toward it and its deluded, greedy, power hungry leaders.

    Part of the healing is to deal with the anger, sadness, family neglect, shunning, ect. that comes from waking up from the cult’s indoctrinations, then breaking away from its clutches on our minds and lives. Cedars has done a great service to us all to give a place to ‘vent’ some of this anger and then share wisdom from one another to move on. I call myself ‘Searcher’ because I continue to search for the right place to call ‘my own’, not the ‘truth’s own’. I have had so much encouragement and insight over the past two years that I have posted here. I continuously get encouragement from Cedars and the other authors here on the JWSurvey site. All the people posting here have helped regardless if they are atheist or spiritual. I don’t really care what they believe, I just want to be there for them as they have listened to me. Yes, some can be juvenile or bat-sh## crazy, but that is to be expected in an open blogging forum. I tend to ignore that and other petty squabbles. Sometimes, I get a good laugh at them too. I just hope that all who have broken free get the mental and emotional freedom they are entitled to have.

    You want to move on quickly, and I respect that. You are a strong one to get over the hump of anger and resentment so soon. I hope that continues for you, but others have a long process, and that’s because we are all different. That just makes the world go ’round, blah blah blah. I could go on.

    Basically, forgiveness and moving on is hard for all of us. Forgiveness is not just for the person you forgive, but more so for the forgiving person to free his/her self from the burden of anguish and hate they harbor. It may take a while for some people, but I’m glad that they have a place to vent it in a healthy way (I’m stressing ‘healthy’ here).

    To John Redwood, thanks for the thought provoking article. To Cedars (Lloyd) thanks for the service and place that you have provided for so many here.

  • November 10, 2015 at 4:14 pm
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    @Anthony

    ‘Searcher’ gave a very good response below, to your comments here. I will not rehash those comments except to just mention that some of the persons who comment on this site are still JWs in the organization. They find it necessary to hide behind anonymous names as otherwise, if their true identities are known they risk being disfellowshipped and being shunned/cut-off from family and friends who remain in the org.

    Thanks for having taken the time to share. You gave a very important and valuable reminder in the previous post:

    “Be more in control of who you let into your life”.

    Do take care. All the best.
    Regards.

  • November 10, 2015 at 5:57 pm
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    Hi guys I’m 18 and a JW. After reviewing all this info im convinced that this cult is not “the true religion.” I wish I never got baptized but you can’t change the past. The elders in my hall want me to become a ministerial servant and I don’t know what to do. My plan is to transfer halls and just stop going because I can’t get disfellowshipped. I also found an interesting piece of info about where Jehovah came from. His name was a catholic invention. How can they claim to be a true religion when they shun family and close friends, they lie and say that they are mediators of Jesus, and they steal from other religions in order to persuade others? Cedar in the article it’s true and I see how my family has lost there freedom to think for themselves. It’s also very sad how my “worldy” friends treat me so much better than my own family. How is it even possible to manipulate 8 million people and take away someones free mind?

    • November 11, 2015 at 11:40 am
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      Ace, you’re not alone. Me to Ace, for me Getting df’d isn’t an option. I’m not willing to go out of my comfort zone and it’s important to me to happily live with myself. Ace, be happy all the time. The secret to happiness is keeping bitterness out of your life. It’s all in the mind. Wow, you’re not a kid any more. Don’t allow others stress to stress you. JWs are stressed. It took time for me to learn to stay away from them. I completely have now stopped going to meetings. I love my new found freedom. I’m trying to warn you. Don’t be bitter. That’s a waste of energy and time. Be happy.

  • November 10, 2015 at 7:06 pm
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    Takes awhile after waking up to move on, I think many need help from those that are going through the same thing, its called encouragement, understanding and non judgemental feed back.

    Some become activists these ones usually have a huge sense of justice, not so much bitterness and hate, but hate rather what the GB has done to the many mislead and deceived JW, for most of us it includes our families, we are torn.

    Its sites like these and others that really do help those feeling lost and alone to have communication with others that understand, and the information helps rid many of the cob webs of indoctrination over time.

    Everyone is not on the same time span, some have left for years, others are just starting to wake up, some are fading, others been DF and so forth, so not everyone is at the same stage, so we need to respect that and be kind to one another.

    Keep up this life saving work all those that contribute articles, videos and sites, and all the comments that help also.

    • November 11, 2015 at 9:42 am
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      Spot on Kat…exactly how I feel…Im waking up over the last few years and its been a shocker in more ways than one!…. 55 years of mind control gone…it can have a very strange effect on a person…and a shock to fin the real authentic you…and I like her! Lets not judge one another…we have had enough of that already.

      • November 11, 2015 at 4:57 pm
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        Idontknowhatodo
        55 years of mind control – wow, you have done so well to finally wake up! I had 30 years of it and as you say it’s a shocker when you discover the truth.
        When people in the world sometimes commented on how we were “a nice family”, I used to say it was “because we are Jehovah’s witnesses”. Now we can still be a nice family because of who we are, the real authentic us! Yes, it’s good to find our real selves again.
        Oh, and I agree, we’ve all had enough of the criticism and judgemental attitude.
        Let’s get back to ‘Desiderata’.

  • November 10, 2015 at 7:43 pm
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    I also like: “Life is not a rehearsal”.

    • November 11, 2015 at 4:13 am
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      Hi Anthony,
      First that teaching of “paradise earth” is not as harmless as you think. It is the hook which is used to entice many people into JW. Any person who fears death to an unnatural degree and if he comes into contact with JW, imagine the consequences . First of all , the fear is exacerbated by showing the person about the threat of so-called coming Armageddon and then offer him the carrot of paradise earth. It is enough to shatter any man’s identity by then.There are 3 steps (in a broader sense) mentioned in Steve Hassan’s book to gain control of a person’s mind :- unfreezing,changing and refreezing. This teaching is used by the JW in the first step.

      As for the pain i caused my cousin, do you think anybody who has left this cult has not paid their price in pain? One of the major characteristics of a cult is there is no graceful way out. Raymund Franz paid his price.So did Carl Olof Jonsonn. So did Karen Morgan. So did Barbara Anderson. So did Cedars . So did Paul Grundy. And these people are recognizable. What about the unnamed , unknown persons who have left or trying to leave?

      Also after seeing the child abuse trials in Australia , which sane person would not try and get his family member out of this cult ? The magnitude of this problem even Raymund Franz and Carl Olof Jonsonn were unable to accept, that the truth was much worse than even they imagined.

      • November 11, 2015 at 10:24 am
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        I agree with you. There is an old saying, “You attract a whole lot more bees with honey than with vinegar.” When dealing with people that I disagree with, I found out that out the hard way too many times, ruining an opportunity to converse with the person. Now, when dealing with an insulting person, I usually ignore them when I can. That’s more poisonous to them because they can’t get a rise out of you.

      • November 11, 2015 at 10:50 am
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        Thank you Anthony.

      • November 12, 2015 at 11:42 am
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        To searcher and Dee

        Thanks for that bit of advice of yours about ( attracting a lot more bees with honey )

        I almost forgot about them kind of sayings and philosophies on life by allowing myself to be drawn in by certain types of people like rc.

        it don’t say a lot for the people up in that office supporting them types of people.

        its a bit like that verse in the bible, mix with the wise and you become wise, the rest you know.

        a lot of people on the site are people followers, following people like excelosior and others.

        They don’t really have anything deep down, you talk to them and theres nothing there, empty shells.

        Thanks 4 that bit of advice.

        All the best to you both. x

  • November 10, 2015 at 10:54 pm
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    Whenever their is a secret problem in the congo, they sat that the holy spirit will eventually expose it, well i read many coments for people here who are still in the org but also like me look & comment on the so called apostate site, why arent we caught.

  • November 11, 2015 at 1:00 am
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    Whoa! The first 25 years of my life in a nutshell!! I, too, have family on my father’s side whom I’ve never met. I have a few vague memories of the ones I DID meet, but not much after early childhood. He never came into “the truth” but my mother did and so everything the joint families had done before like holidays, birthdays and such was consequently branded “evil”. Once that happened, I’m assuming they just didn’t want to hang out with us anymore. Who could blame them?
    My mother was a wonderful woman – probably the best person I’ll know my whole life – but she was completed blinded and brainwashed by an organization that promised all the answers. Even when 1975 came and went, she stayed strong and was proud of that fact. In the last years of her life, she’d gotten much more relaxed about the rules. I’d left the org by then, but she continued to associate with me anyway. She was well loved in the congregation and in our town, I’m sure it’s why she didn’t end up in a judicial meeting!! Only one brother of mine remains a JW, out of 3. I’m not even sure about him as, obviously, we haven’t spoken for years.
    People who’ve heard a little about JWs or who may even think they know a lot have no idea of the damage they’ve done, and continue to do to families and people’s lives in general. It’s amazing how a group who claim to be so full of love can have such a foundation of hate, deceit and mistrust.
    Thank you for your article!!

  • November 11, 2015 at 3:34 am
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    To the dear Christians on this site,

    Our dear friend Robert67 has raised an interesting theological point in his reply to me.

    His argument is that non believers cannot apply the bible be use they don’t believe in God.

    Obviously, dear Robert67 is not implying that I cannot read, so it must be that I am incapable of discerning the correct meaning of the bible, due to my non belief in God.

    What do you think?

    All you dear Christians have read my scriptural arguments. So, I would ask you to pray and consider whether I was wrong to urge dear Robert67 to show love and politeness in his comments.

    Another tired argument is that I am a hypocrite for not applying the councel to myself. I’m sorry, but I am under no obligation to follow the bible’s morality in my life, whereas anyone professing to follow Christ is under obligation to follow all of it!

    I have just been awarded a huge new contract, and so I shall not be able to devote as much time to this site as I have done before.

    I must admit that I am relieved. It has not been much fun having to step up and hold to account individuals like PB and our dear friend Robert67 with no assistance save for some remarkable exceptions.

    I will continue to read the articles and, if I have time, I shall comment as before.

    I used to enjoy commenting on this site. It used to be a positive experience and I thought that I was achieving some good.

    Now I find myself abused, accused of things I have not done and I am not getting any benefit out of it at all.

    I leave you in the capable hands of many posters who are here to help, not divide.

    So long, folks!

    Peace be with you, Excelsior!

    • November 11, 2015 at 4:53 am
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      Dear Excelsior, I am glad for you with your big contract, but please come back soon! I am not a “Christian” but I will miss your comments!! Thanks for sticking up for us non Christians too. Take care. Caroline.

    • November 11, 2015 at 8:18 am
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      You have a long history of insightful comments on many subjects, Excelsior. It’s a shame that your time recently had to be diverted to unpleasant but necessary tasks. Congratulations on your success outside of the JW cult.

      Of course, as you know, Hairy Fairy is Pickled Brain, who–believe it or not–wants to add something negative to this occasion.

      Come back as often as you can, Excelsior. And sincerely, peace be with you, my friend.

      • November 11, 2015 at 11:13 am
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        Moderator, thank you very much for your quick response.

        Please disregard my reference to a comment that no longer exists, folks.

      • November 13, 2015 at 3:47 am
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        Excelsior, you are highly prized. Please don’t go for good. Always enjoy your comments as they are balanced and well thought out. Your comments are highly respected.

    • November 11, 2015 at 8:44 am
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      @Excelsior!
      I for one, enjoy your posts and always use them to question my own faith in God at least and why I believe in him. There are plenty of lovely individuals who don’t believe in God as well you know. Please don’t be offended by Robert67. He means well I would like to believe, and he seems to have a genuine love for God and is very zealous about it.
      Huge congrats on your new contract. I wish you every success as I’m sure you will have with your excellent reasoning and community contribution skills.
      In the immortal words of Spock: “Live Long & Prosper”!

    • November 11, 2015 at 9:34 am
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      Dont go for long Excelsior….I have always benefited from your advice and feel like us atheists are getting persecuted off the site if you leave!
      I dont think our friend meant you to leave for good but I do believe you have the right to use his chosen moral compass to question his attitude to yourself and others who dont believe in a God anymore….
      I just think we are all victims and including a bit of debate…should stick together…
      I will miss you…
      Wrll done with your new contract
      Peace be with YOU!

    • November 11, 2015 at 10:29 am
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      Hi Excelsior,

      I hate to hear that you are leaving. You had some very salient points and responses. I think that your input far outweighs any insult or challenge that is leveled at you. I wish you would stay and not give an insulting person any gratitude, but you have to make that choice.

      Best of luck to you and I wish you well.

    • November 11, 2015 at 11:21 am
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      Excelsior, PB was dealt with and continues to be dealt with (Hairy Fairy is the latest incarnation, apparently the penny hasn’t yet dropped that we can spot this person’s comments a mile off and will delete any we suspect him/her to have authored, regardless of rotating IP addresses).

      As to your interactions with other users – we have very clear posting guidelines and we appreciate the cooperation of our visitors in enforcing them (since we cannot patrol the comments sections 24/7). If someone posts a comment that violates our posting guidelines we appreciate a quick “heads up” email, whereupon we will generally – but not always – give the violator the opportunity to correct their behavior before blocking.

      Either the other individual has said something genuinely offensive and outrageous, or we are talking about a heated difference of opinion.

      Either way, you are a valued visitor to this website, and aside from your personal commitments I hope you will continue to share your voice on our pages.

    • November 11, 2015 at 11:35 am
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      In response to comment, that you can’t think of one group of people who lived at time of Moses, who were not barbarians, …who was Job, Elihu, and for that matter the 3 friends. They did seem to have some respectably values.

      • November 11, 2015 at 11:41 am
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        Wow, my last comment was meant for a reply to a much earlier post, and pretty much is way you out of order..lol.
        But, I for one appreciated Excelsior comments too..

    • November 11, 2015 at 12:26 pm
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      To Excelsior et al

      Excelsior your input to this site will be greatly missed, but I am happy to hear the good news about your new contract.

      I too have found the recent insults very off-putting and they made me reluctant to comment again, especially when relating personal experiences.

      I have commented previously under another name, but due to the afore-mentioned reason, coupled with the fact that I have family waking up I have chosen to post without saying my name.

      My comment in support of RC on another article that drew another posters wrath, was made because I found his remark to RC offensive and un-called for. I am not an argumentative or confrontational person, so have no desire to get drawn into an argument.

      I have not been associated with the JWs for many years and I am very busy leading a non-JW life, so do not spend my time obsessing about the JW Org. However due to the cult I have been deprived of my family for many years, a fact that I am very angry about.

      Like many others here who have commented, any time that I did have contact with JW family then I could not discuss religion with them as it only shut off the limited communication that I had with them.

      I long for the day to come when JW Org is exposed for the fraud that it is and my family and others are finally freed from the destructive brain washing control that the Cult has over them. Sadly though it could never bring back the decades of lost family relationships.

      • November 11, 2015 at 2:59 pm
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        Anthony I presume

        I was moved to make the comment to RC after I read your first post to Alanv to which Tiger responded and then saw your next comment to RC.

        Whilst everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, I do not think it is helpful to be insensitive to others, or to condemn them for their actions.

        There had been a lot of insults being traded here recently and having read in a previous comment what RCs motive was for following this site, I felt he/she should be offered encouragement, not singled out for criticism.

        I am glad you apologised to RC and if I classed you in the same category as others who have been insulting when this was not your intention, then I too apologise and hope you will feel that you can continue commenting and sharing any experiences that may help others reading this site.

        Cedars site is invaluable for helping anyone with issues relating to the JWs and unfortunately some recent comments have been very off-putting and probably play into the stereo-type that the GB like to portray that apostates are bitter and mentally diseased.

        As I said before, I do not wish to get embroiled in confrontation – I had enough of that with the JWs; so in the words of another commentator

        Peace be with you.

        • November 12, 2015 at 1:04 am
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          Hi I dont want to say my name,
          Thanks for your support. Will make my points in a better way from now.

        • November 12, 2015 at 1:09 am
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          Anthony,
          I think i understand what you are trying to say. Yes could be that i have worsened the situation but well nobody is perfect. Perhaps God in His Infinite Grace will show me a better way to get my point across and help my cousin.
          Also , if i have a personal vendetta against my cousin, i need not do anything . The JW will harm him more than any way i can think of.
          To use your own words “Let it go”. We all have our own demons to deal with.

          • November 12, 2015 at 7:57 am
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            >>>Even God with all his infinite wisdom cannot change the heart of man. ( Jeremiah 17:9 )

            Interesting passage(without getting into further context such as in Jeremiah 16:19 – 17:18), makes one wonder if a masterfully designed chess game with winners & losers is at play. Then again, wasn’t there a similar chess play at Genesis 6:6?

            IMHO

            dogstar

          • November 12, 2015 at 4:00 pm
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            Any screenwriters here? Who would you cast as the seven wizards of Brooklyn? Who would play the different members of the royal committee?

            http://youtu.be/Zg5zSVxx9JM

          • November 13, 2015 at 8:17 am
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            Hello Lloyd. Why do I get the impression that Charles Darwin has morphed (or in his case evolved) from previous incarnations!

          • November 13, 2015 at 9:28 am
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            Another reincarnation of an abusive commenter, upset they cannot mold this site to their vision.

          • November 13, 2015 at 11:07 am
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            @Robert67. Personally I think that is a slur on my good character just because I don’t believe in a god & I draw attention to the rules of this site I am attacked .

          • November 13, 2015 at 12:14 pm
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            Good character? You turn into a keyboard warrior, calling people insulting names as soon as they disagree with you.

            I don’t mind the disagreeing part, its the insulting names, meant with insult that constitute a breach of the -(no abusive comments)(language)- posting guidelines.

            I know its still the same few individuals that want me gone, and cannot stand the fact that some of us are “ignorant” enough to hold on to faith in scripture after leaving the Watchtower Cult and Tract Society (c)

            The Cult didnt wash it out of us and nothing you do will either.

          • November 13, 2015 at 12:55 pm
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            @ Robert67 . Please explain where I have called you an insulting name by just drawing attention that you are violating the rules of this website where it specifically says no comments of an evangelical nature?

          • November 13, 2015 at 9:37 pm
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            “I know its still the same few individuals that want me gone, and cannot stand the fact that some of us are “ignorant” enough to hold on to faith…”

            You’re doing it again, Robert.

            Don’t cast aspersions so freely onto respectful and respectable people who have nothing to do with this.

            Some of your comments are very good. Seriously. But when the slightest thought of us non-believers crosses your mind, you make some comment that makes it sound like you’re completely unraveling.

            Unless there’s a conspiracy theory you’d rather believe in, then trust me when I tell you that “Charles Darwin” is PB. Just study a few old comments of his and learn how to identify him. It would be unwise to say here in a comment what to look for.

            I don’t know who the other trolls have been, but I think it’s VERY safe to say that they aren’t any of the people who have engaged in civil dialogue with you in the past over our differences of opinion.

            We’ve been doing better, Robert. Let’s keep it up. Please.

          • November 13, 2015 at 9:40 pm
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            “I know its still the same few individuals that want me gone, and cannot stand the fact that some of us are “ignorant” enough to hold on to faith …”

            You’re doing it again, Robert.

            Don’t cast aspersions so freely onto respectful and respectable people who have nothing to do with this.

            Some of your comments are very good. Seriously. But when the slightest thought of us non-believers crosses your mind, you make some comment that makes it sound like you’re completely unraveling.

            Unless there’s a conspiracy theory you’d rather believe in, then trust me when I tell you that “Charles Darwin” is PB. Just study a few old comments of his and learn how to identify him. It would be unwise to say here in a comment what to look for.

            I don’t know who the other trolls have been, but I think it’s VERY safe to say that they aren’t any of the people who have engaged in civil dialogue with you in the past over our differences of opinion.

            We’ve been doing better, Robert. Let’s keep it up. Please.

          • November 13, 2015 at 9:52 pm
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            Well, two for emphasis I guess. Moderator, if it’s easy to do, and you feel inclined to delete this 2nd one, please do so. Thanks.

    • November 11, 2015 at 5:24 pm
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      Excelsior –
      I said goodbye a little while ago too. Some posts just got under my skin and I was getting annoyed. A few months later I have decided to post again.
      You are one of the long standing members on this site – although we don’t always agree, you will be missed. Hope you get lots of money from your huge new contract. We could do with a party!!
      Peace and love.

    • November 11, 2015 at 5:32 pm
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      Excelsior, I really hope you don’t leave. we all say stupid things (genius accreditation accepted) hope you’ll stay around.

    • November 11, 2015 at 6:20 pm
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      Excelsior.
      I appreciate your logic when discussing application, I like that clarity. How many hot collars are there when it comes to belief? You are an asset.
      The weakness of us all is the belief we are right, try a discussion with that sort of person. . . . often their mouths are big and their ears are small.
      As a general comment. . . Before belief in the external belief in the internal.
      God. . .John Lennon.
      Hope you don’t leave Excelsior X

    • November 12, 2015 at 1:00 am
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      Hi Excelsior,
      Come back soon. Your comments were amazing to say the least. Thanks for sticking up for us. I think you are a better Christian than even you dare to admit.

    • November 12, 2015 at 7:53 am
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      @Ano, explain yourself, please. Who are you calling a creep and why are you calling Ex. a creep?

  • November 11, 2015 at 7:23 am
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    Here is another story for you, My wife’s aunt was a very faithful person along with her husband who was a presiding overseer, (when there was such a thing), for many years. The hall the two of them attended was very cold in the main seating area, so the aunt would sit in the back room. Her husband who finally removed himself from his position as overseer and elder, would sit with her in the back room. This did not set too well with the “powers that be”. So they began mandating that everyone needs to sit in the main auditorium. The aunt could not, and her husband supported her decision. It all finally came to a head and a very misguided elder said to her, “if you are not going to follow our instructions, leave and don’t come back”. So they left and never went back. I have had a number of nice conversations with the two of them, and during one of our talks she said to me, “if you put your faith in men, you will always be disappointed”. That rings so true! The misguided elder should have been the one to commend them for attending, even though they chose to sit in the back room. This elder did not ever take into consideration what this faithful couple contributed over the years. He wanted them to fall in line with something very petty. So from the very small things to the big ones, there is to be no deviation, it is no wonder faithful ones like these family members are leaving.

    • November 13, 2015 at 3:58 am
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      Just like the attitude of the Pharisees to separate a tenth of the mint and the dill herbs while they gulped down the camel and loaded heavy loads upon men while they would not budge the loads even with their fingers.

  • November 11, 2015 at 8:10 am
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    John, that was a very moving article and affects many of us who still have family in the organisation. I feel a longing to help Witnesses when I see them out and about with their trolleys or knocking on doors. I think it is important to share with them a better way. Not easy but at least it’s positive.

  • November 11, 2015 at 8:27 am
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    I rarely talk to my family who are still witnesses about the witness religion because even though they may know that things are not right, they use the standard line “wait on Jehovah”. That right there is a conversation stopper. And wait they do……

    Funny, when a person leaves the religion, the witnesses all believe (propaganda from headquarters) that that person will become an immoral, drug and alcohol abuser and will never be happy again.

    That person is then generally written off by most witnesses because he or she will die at armaghedon anyway.

    Leaving the witnesses was the only way that I could be happy again, because for me, going into the Kingdom Hall was not any fun, as it always felt like I was walking into a prison. There were some very nice people there but the atmosphere was always guarded and noone could ever ever really say what they were actually thinking.

    So many times I wanted to put up my hand and say I disagree with this point and perhaps we can discuss it or reason on it, but that would have taken much more courage than I had at the time.

  • November 11, 2015 at 10:22 am
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    Just a note of thanks. I appreciate the added information coming out about disaster relief. I’ve helped at disasters but I have to admit I’m naive. I was aware of different things but didn’t always make connections to the bigger picture. And in my limited capacity of helping I just wasn’t in the know about some of these things. My eyes are a little more opened. Regards

  • November 11, 2015 at 1:37 pm
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    Just a comment on the wide variety of post/watchtower ideologies, I think it has to be expected that the journey out of the years of absolute thought control is going to be messy and chaotic. Remember the old illustration from youthbook.about the spring that’s held tight then released suddenly. .same thing…we cannot expect uniformity, in fact that was what we came from, the Truth whatever that is will be manifested no matter what we think or feel, our belief or disbelief will not change reality. We need to respect people and viewpoints that do not always agree with our own…
    That being said , I also realize that Lloyd has an obligation to monitor the comments on this site, just like cnn, Guardian, bbc…do theirs, and establish parameters to how far commentators can go..

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