When I was a Jehovah’s Witness, I didn’t like to talk about Armageddon.
Don’t get me wrong, I loved to talk about the paradise. Who wouldn’t? I’d cheerfully tell anyone who asked, be they householder, interested person at the meetings, or curious workmate, about the awesome future that awaited. I’d talk about a world free from war, free from crime, full of incredible adventures that a peaceful, united human race would enjoy forever.
But when people asked how God would achieve this, I found myself getting a little vague and fuzzy about the details.
I mean, how do you say: “Well, first God needs to kill you and everyone you love, unless of course you fancy converting?” without making yourself look like a bit of a extremist loon?
I remember sitting in District Conventions, when the speaker would be holding forth with sound and fury on the subject of how God’s wrath would soon consume all those who failed to serve him. I would glance guiltily across at any “worldly” people who happened to be in the stadium, like the security guys, or the people working the concession stands. I’d feel like walking over to them and saying; “Don’t worry, he’s not talking about you, or your family or friends,” but I couldn’t, because he was.
I knew very well that unless they became Jehovah’s Witnesses, they were dead men and women walking.
Armageddon: An act of justice?
Let’s take a second to actually analyse the Watchtower’s teachings on Armageddon. It is presented by Watchtower as the war that Jehovah God will soon use to remove all of the Earth’s governments, and most of the Earth’s population, and install his own brand of rulership on the planet. He will fight it with his spiritual armies of angels, with his son Jesus leading the charge. He will have no need of human help, so Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be involved in any actual combat. Their role will simply be to stand and watch.
Who will survive? Well it depends who you ask. Or more correctly, it depends on who you are when you ask.
If you are a member of the public asking this question, you’ll probably get the answer: “That’s for God to decide. Only Jehovah can read a person’s heart. We don’t know who will survive and who won’t.” Take for example the FAQ on this subject from Watchtower’s official website JW. org. (Bold is mine.)
Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “
there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.
Well, that sounds okay on the surface. Maybe I can just live a good life, treat my neighbour well, and Jesus will read my heart, see that I’m basically a loving, kind man and I’ll be spared?
No. Because this isn’t the answer Watchtower gives behind the scenes to an indoctrinated Jehovah’s Witness. Here are some examples of what Watchtower has said about Armageddon in other publications, with even more examples available at jwfacts.com (Bold has been added)
“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19
“During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known Gods righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.” Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?”
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
So it’s pretty definitive. While Watchtower tries to spin the doctrine to the general public that “all sorts of people might in theory survive Armageddon” the actual message in-house is that unless you are a practicing Jehovah’s Witness, you are toast.
Contemplate that for a while. Watchtower’s doctrine is that everyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness will be killed, no matter how loving, how kind, how selfless they are in other areas of their life. They could have spent their life in Medicine Sans Frontiers, selflessly dedicating themselves to providing medical care to fellow human beings in some of the worst places on Earth, whereas a Jehovah’s Witness may have simply worked as an IT engineer in a comfortable office, and never really helped anyone much.
But come Armageddon, it would be the Jehovah’s Witness who would survive, and the selfless medic who would die screaming.
To summarise, the non-Witness population of the planet would undergo a systematic slaughter of every single man woman and child. There is a name for the systematic killing of a civilian population solely for the purpose of extermination.
Genocide.
The ethics of genocide
You don’t have to use your imagination to see what Armageddon would look like. Human history is replete with examples of genocide. To glimpse the future that a “loving” God will being, look to the concentration camps of World War II. Look to the mass graves and “ethnic cleansing” in the Balkans, or the hacking to death of vast scores of Tutsi and moderate Hutu by the Hutu majority in Rwanda.
Or look on the news reports right now at the work of ISIS in the Middle East, who are currently engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Yazidi people.
Now, it goes without saying that 99% of Jehovah’s Witness are no doubt just as horrified as everyone else when they see the awful genocide that the so-called Islamic State are currently committing against the Yazidi population. The wholesale slaughter of men women and children, often in gruesome and sadistic ways, is an appalling crime that has brought universal condemnation from the international community and revulsion from anyone with even a halfway decent moral code.
Yet these men, women and children being slaughtered at the hands of ISIS, are the very same men, women and children who would be slaughtered at the hands of Jehovah if he brought Armageddon today, a slaughter the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be obligated to support and celebrate as a righteous act.
And it’s not like the slaughter would be any more humane; Watchtower does not teach that Jehovah will painlessly disintegrate his victims or cause them to simply fall asleep in quick, merciful death as would arguably be within his power to enact. No, Watchtower portrays this event as a violent holocaust, with people being crushed, burned and mutilated in a manner of which the sadists of ISIS would surely approve.
To prove this point, let’s take a look at some Watchower artwork depicting the event.
This is just a small sample of art produced by Watchtower to demonstrate what they believe Armageddon will look like. A whirlwind of terror and grisly violent death unleashed against a powerless and unsuspecting civilian population.
If you’re still in any doubt, listen to Governing Body Member Tony Morris, one of Watchtower’s seven leading men, hold forth on how those God kills will burn and split open like hotdogs.
Even worse, according to Watchtower theology, those who die before Armageddon will almost certainly be resurrected into God’s New World in order to have a second chance, whereas those who die at his hands at Armageddon are eternally destroyed. Remember that Watchtower FAQ quoted earlier in the article?
Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “
there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Why do I say “even worse?” Because this teaching creates an horrific moral loophole. If Witnesses take their theology to its logical conclusion, they should be celebrating the deaths of “worldly” people at the hands of killers like ISIS, for those “worldly” people at least have a chance of resurrection in the new world, whereas if they escape the ISIS sadists but then die at Armageddon, they are doomed forever.
Again, to stress, 99% of Witnesses would be horrified if one of their number suggested this.
An elder who gave a talk from a Kingdom Hall platform stating that Christians should rejoice in the death of worldly people, and that groups like ISIS were doing the people they killed a favour by sending them en-mass to Paradise via the loophole of pre-armageddon death, would appall his audience, probably have his microphone muted, be hauled off the platform and into a back-room, be given a savage dressing down by the rest of the elders, and would probably not allowed to give another talk for a very long time.
Yet this theoretical Elder’s logic, whilst horrifying and unacceptable to most Witnesses, is a correct reading of the logical end consequence of Watchtower doctrine.
Genocide is always genocide
The more I came to realise what the Armageddon doctrine actually entailed, the more I came to fear there might be something horribly wrong with the Organisation I was supporting and the doctrine it promoted. Were such a violent act to be committed by a human organisation or movement, I would be revolted, and condemn it for the vile act of barbarism it was.
So how did it suddenly become acceptable if the very same people were slaughtered by a deity who claimed to be the very essence of love? Billions of defenceless men, women and children, all killed horribly because they were not convinced that a slightly obscure and insignificant religion that occasionally knocked on their door, or stood silently next to carts full of wafer-thin magazines, was actually the One True Faith?
Like many before me, I increasingly found my conscience could not support the teachings Watchtower promoted.
Like many before me, I came to properly research my beliefs, and thus realised that the teachings Watchtower promoted were often not even in harmony with the Bible.
And in time, like many before me, I left the Watchtower religion. In a way, Armageddon set me free.
Just not quite in the way Watchtower had intended.
@Winston
“this idea of God planning to destroy 99% of all humankind indiscriminately is a product of faulty human reasoning”
It’s in my Bible. I don’t know the verse off the top of my head but I’ve read the whole thing, I know it’s there. Do you want me to look it up? Might be pointless though, if you’re not inclined to believe.
“statistically there are less murders than 100 years ago”
Statistically 100 years of human history is a small sample. It might get worse again. A whole lot worse.
“History has shown us that humans are improving, not getting worse. Would you prefer to live back in the dark ages?”
Medical advances have improved quality of life for many people. But 70 to 80 years, on average, like the Bible says, is still all we get. Despite our best human efforts, we will never conquer old age and death. Geneticists will produce Frankenstein long before unlocking the secrets of life God keeps locked away.
As for living in the dark ages, no, I would prefer to live in a world without death from disease or old age. Humans will never achieve that on their own. So I pray for God’s kingdom to come, though not knowing who can survive it’s arrival. As Meredith said, things will get ugly. But whether I live or die, let it come.
Simon,
I was raised a JW and served as an MS and then an elder for over a decade. As such, I read the bible perhaps a dozen times. It is a real stretch to try to use the scriptures to justify the genocide of 99% of the population. The closest you can get is that “broad and spacious is the road leading to destruction and many are the ones finding it.”
100 years IS a short period. I used that period as an example because it is the most relevant. We have been getting less and less violent for thousands of years. Think about it: today it is just about unheard of to nail criminals to a post and let them slowly die an agonizing death. 2000 years ago it was common practice. A great book on this subject is The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steve Pinker.
As for life expectancy, the average was 44 in 1900. Today it’s in the mid 70’s. And where I live it is not uncommon for folks to see 90 more often than not. To date geneticists have not created a Frankenstein-type monster. Really, to make such a suggestion is cynical and there is no factual basis for such an assertion.
I believe God gave us the tools to better ourselves and to improve the quality of life for our fellow humans. So what I’ll pray for is this: to use my talents and skills to make life better for those around me.
WS
“To date geneticists have not created a Frankenstein-type monster”.
— Ever heard of Donald Trump? LOL
Sorry Donnie-baby. Just had to say it.
(After he purchases the Presidency, I’m screwed. Oh well, totally worth it!)
Hi everyone.
Just a quick note.
As you are aware, the comments section guidelines have a number of rules, one of which is:
RELIGIOUS NEUTRALITY – Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature or may be construed as imposing one person’s religious beliefs (or lack thereof) over those of another.
Now, given the nature of the article, I’m prepared to be reasonable about giving a certain amount of slack here, as it’s hard to discuss the issue without straying into this guideline as people define and debate what they believe on the matter.
And I’m happy to say that so far, everyone has been reasonable in their conduct, there is pointed debate going on, but it’s not getting nasty and I don’t feel it is overly evangelical.
So basically, good work everyone, keep it up, stay civil, and then I’m sure there will be no need for me to swing any hammers of moderation.
“Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature”,,,well, what do you want us to do? Some of us are still believers in God and the Holy Bible. When I comment I do not evangelize, but, say, that your post is about homosexuality, obviuosly I may comment by saying that the Bible, hence God forbisds it. This is a statement, I am not imposing fellow forum writers to stop practicing homosexuality nor I try to say they are bad people. I believe you of the forum are going over the top on this religious neutrality. Considering all of us un here were and still some are believers and know what it means to impose an opinion. So, in brief, I am not going to ask you ti have a Bubkle study with me, becasue if I did it would be evangelising. Chill out and accept reality: there are those who no longer believe and those who do and comment with statements not intended to impose opinions, but stating facts. By the way, nice article.
Hi James.
There is a difference between discussing the issues raised in an article, which may indeed require debates over theology and scripture, and what is considered evangelism, which is attempting to “preach” rather than discuss. Granted sometimes it can be a fine line.
As I said in my previous comment, I’m prepared to allow some leeway here. If I feel a discussion is being held in a civil manner, and making good progress, I’m happy to let it continue. But if the tone slips too far, or it transitions from civil debate to shouting match or a Sunday sermon, I will step in. So far I feel the discussion in the thread has been of the former and not the latter. Let’s keep it that way :)
Covert Fade. Thanks for clearing up that one which has been a stumbling block to me too.
Sorry, I’m not making fun of u james, we all hit the wrong keys sometimes, maybe in a rush, & this forum is not a spelling or grammar class, but “Bubkle study” just cracked me up. Honestly, if anyone ever offered me a Bubkle study, I would probably turn it down. lol
Great article Covert Fade;
My own mother-in-law felt relief that her husband of over 40 years passed away a year ago. Why? Because she felt that he now has a resurrection hope and will definitely not die at Armageddon. Twisted logic, but that is the logical conclusion she came up with. Die now and not at Armageddon; why not commit suicide and get a head start? Oh, God would not approve of that, would he? What unmitigated rubbish.
If Armageddon was going to happen wouldn’t the son of God, Jesus Christ, have mentioned it at least once in one of the four gospels during his three and a half year ministry? Why is Armageddon mentioned only once in Revelation, which was a book written in signs and symbols by a 100 year old apostle John? Since all of Revelation, according to John, was given to him in signs and symbols could not this also be a symbolic event as well? After all the whore of Babylon, the scarlet colored wild beast, the 666 beast, the two-horned lamb and the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are all symbolic are they not?
Armageddon is a club to keep the Witnesses in line similar to Christendom’s “hell-fire” doctrine and it’s a crutch as well as it keeps Witnesses from leaving the so called protection of the Watchtower Society in order to better themselves with job opportunities making them a pitiable bunch of mendicant beggars.
@Big B
It is debatable that the apostle John is the writer of Revelation – this is in fact why people like Dionysius of Alexandria, a Catholic Bishop; John Calvin, the founder of Presbyterianism; Erasmus a Protestant scholar; Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism rejected/doubted the book of Revelation.
Indeed, for an organization that boasts that they don’t teach hellfire as they claim that it is unscriptural, they certainly scare the hell out of people with their Armageddon and total destruction threat. The WT uses fear and intimidation as a conversion/retention tool – they have simply changed the source of the fear by substituting Armageddon for hellfire. Armageddon is just a mind-controlling tactic used by the WT to trap persons in their cult.
Amen!
Amen!
@BigB.Although Jesus did not use the Word Armageddon.Jesus did speak about Worldwide destruction in his Gospels. For example he said , “then there will be great tribulations” such as has never occurred before nor will occur again, all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in mourning
when thyey see the son of man coming.Also whenhe taught about the end of the system in Matt 24:36-39 whee he said about the flood and compared it to his second coming that they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away so the presence of the son of man will be.
So there are many references in other parts of the bible about massive loss of life when certain events happen and the bible does say it is coming from God. Also there is a scripture that says those Slain by Jehovah in that day will be from one end of the earth to the other, not sure where that is at the moment ( I think one of the Hebrew prohets ).
My point is it is talked about in the bible however know where does it indicate ONLY JW”s or people that all agree on WT teachings will be the survivors. The WT has used Fear and Guilt to keep their sheep in line for nearly their entire existence.
Fear and guilt is not a religion but a source of control.We are open to interrupt those scriptures and time frames as we like.
@ Holy Conolli
It is interesting that god made a covenant to never again destroy all flesh by means of a flood (Genesis 9:9-17) yet Jesus mentions the flood when speaking about worldwide destruction in the Gospels.
@dee2.
I have thought about that also but to me all it says is he will not destroy the world by a flood.The Bible does say the world will be destroyed by other means than a flood.I have not been a practicing JW for over 20 years now
but the bible does speak about massive destruction when these things occur. Of course the WT claims they are the only ones who will survive although on their personal website they “pretend” to say that others will be saved ( meaning resurrected ones ) but that is just to make themselves look less extreme to the public. In reality as we have seen in so many of their writings they clearly teach they are the only ones who will be saved.
@Holyconolli
Jeremiah 25:33 “Those slain by the Lord on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like manure on the surface of the ground.”
That scripture is from Jerimiah and is about the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. The JWs like to apply it to Armageddon due to its graphic language (I used to give a public talk where I did this based on the Watchtower provided outline).
But I will concede the point that most Christian religions (and many non-Christian ones) have this concept of a “day of reckoning” with the Almighty.
WS
Jer 25:33 was taken out of context by the WT – it wasn’t talking about Armageddon.
“……They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like manure on the surface of the ground.”
What a nightmare that will be for the JW Armageddon survivors to have to watch non-JW corpses rot and be mauled by beasts since the corpses won’t be buried according to this scripture. What a stench. Once rotted, the corpses’ skeletal remains will be lying around on the ground since “they will not be buried”.
8 million JWs will be watching the corpses if 7.2 billion non-JWs rot and be mauled by beasts – I wouldn’t have the intestinal fortitude to watch that. Not to mention the public health hazard those rotting corpses will pose.
@ Simon Kestral
I agree that God can do whatever He wants, and doesn’t owe any of us a Goddamned thing. Atheism doesn’t appeal to me, because it’s at least as difficult to prove God does NOT exist, as it is to prove He DOES exist. lol & it certainly would be awesome if He brought on a truly selective Armageddon that only wiped out the A**holes of the world (no pun intended). But I haven’t seen any concrete evidence that the Bible really is from God, that Jesus, if he existed, was God’s ‘son’ (woeful lack of evidence there!), or that the Har-Magedon of Revelation is anything other than symbolic. I’m not telling u what to believe. But if the Bible is from God, why not the Qu’ran, or the Torah? Betting on a particular “holy book” seems to me like playing roulette. Unless God has Multiple Personality Disorder. ;)
How do you know you’re not one of the A**holes of the world?
lol (sorry, I couldn’t resist)
@ Simon Kestrel
I am one of the A**holes of the world who would like to make the following point:
If God were to once again carry out a mass slaughter of mankind at Armageddon then he he is not a man of his word.
God made an UNCONDITIONAL covenant with Noah that he will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood: Genesis 9:9-17
(I am not endorsing whether or not the flood was a historical fact, I am just using the information provided by the Bible to make a point).
As the record in Genesis shows no conditions were laid down by god when he made this covenant with Noah, so the covenant was UNCONDITIONAL – that is, God promised to keep this covenant, regardless of what man would subsequently do, regardless of whether man would subsequently continue to sin. It is a covenant not only between God and Noah, but between God and every living creature (Genesis 9:9-10, 16). It is an “everlasting covenant,” between God and Noah, and every generation after him (Genesis 9:12). It is God’s promise that He will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood (Genesis 9:11).
I must admit however, that I haven’t seen any rainbows lately so maybe God has changed his mind.
P.S. I understand your predicament – an Ad hominem attack is always easier than facing the problem head on and answering the question at stake. People do this when they are cornered and the fear of being proved wrong starts to well up inside them, so they will lose control and respond to others on a personal level. People get confused with facts, as it unsettles them and creates extreme cognitive dissonance. This cognitive dissonance then needs to be settled. Most people end up using confirmation bias to reaffirm their original view, studying the scriptures using a method called eisegesis. We hold onto our cherished beliefs for dear life, because the thought that we might have been wrong can be too much to bear.
Relax, Dee. It was a joke. Don’t you see the lol? He walked right into that one. Hilarious.
As for the flood, I replied to your duplicate earlier post, back on the page of older comments.
Gotcha……..mass slaughter by means of a flood is NOT OK but mass slaughter by means of fire is OK……..strange god.
“an Ad hominem attack is always easier than facing the problem head on and answering the question at stake”
As you perhaps know, not all questions are sincere. Jesus didn’t answer every question asked of him either.
As for eisegesis, I don’t study the scriptures that way. Are you sure you don’t?
If I may I’m going to interject due to being inspired by your recent statement “not all questions are sincere” “Jesus didn’t respond to all questions”.
These words were used verbatim by a couple of elders who confronted me due to a letter I wrote to the branch office. My questions were sincere and the elders were not in a position to answer them. So I presented them to those who are in a better position to do so. The response I got was ” we are not going to answer your questions “. Of course the response was sent to the elders and they transmitted it to me. To which they went on to repeat your line quoted above.
The point that you make is moot. According to the Bible Jesus could read the heart and therefore could determine whether a question was insincere. Or are you saying that you can do this as well?
I’m not arguing just presenting a different point of view just in case someone happens to read your comment and take it as gospel.
(Just in case you’re offended I’ll add an lol for you, LOL!)
To the moderator,
It appears my attempt at humor has inflamed at least one respondent, so I apologize and retire from this thread.
With all respect to dee2, Simon’s comment didn’t bother me. It WAS a joke, & a good one. Humor is humor.
By the way, it was also a legitimate question!
For a hilarious take on it, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=louis+ck+how+do+you+know+if+you%27re+an+asshole%3F
@Simon Kestrel. For the record, I don’t feel your comments so far have breeched the guidelines here, especially given the extra leeway I am allowing for this specific thread. If you choose to retire from the thread that is of course your choice, but I am happy for you to continue engaging in the discussion at this point. :)
Thanks CF.
As for the debate, it’s me against everybody else, and that’s no fun. I’ve had my say, so I’m done with that.
Two people, I see, have asked compelling sidebar questions, so I’ll respond to those, and move along.
But at lkeast
But at lkeast
? dunno where that came from, please ignore
U’re not quite as alone as u think. I, as well as many non-JW’s I’ve talked to, seem to believe that there is ‘something’ on the horizon. The JW’s are certainly not unique in their belief that this system (or “shytstem”, if u prefer – a term I learned from a ‘worldly’ guy) is screwed up, FUBAR. There may be many more folks than we realize who believe the “end” really is coming. Perhaps that accounts for the “eat, drink, & be merry” attitude so prevalent today. People put themselves into so much debt just going out & drinking, eating, clubbing, partying, whatever, like there’s literally no tomorrow. Like, I’ll never have to pay it off, so who cares? If it happens, when & how, or even by whom, is obviously open to debate. I’m not trying to be a Doomsday preacher or anything. Personally, I don’t believe in a Biblical Armageddon. But History repeats itself. Empires rise & fall. Every empire has had the arrogance to believe it will last forever. Reminds me of the story of the Babylonians leaving the gates open as they partied. The Persians strolled right in. lol Heraclitus said The only thing that is constant is change. So who knows?
PS If anyone thinks I’m whistling in the wind, check out TYT (The Young Turks on YouTube) re: Police Departments acquiring Military Surplus hardware. Even the Government is preparing for SOMETHING. Not trying to scare anyone, but To be forewarned is to have four arms. Something like that.
@a4
It has been said that history is cyclical not linear so only time will tell – I imagine if there is going to be any Armageddon it will be man’s doing. I’ve heard it said that war is a necessary evil as it serves as a population control measure given the earth’s finite capacity – who knows, maybe that is in fact the way the script is supposed to go.
There are certainly things that are beyond our (arrogant) control.
…..arrogant……indeed, what does man really know? Man has by means of his various religions and holy books, attempted to explain what **he believes** this life should be and how this life should go. It seems to me however, that there are still many unknowns which man may never gain the knowledge about, and there are other explanations that are possible, and there certainly are things that are beyond man’s control.
ditto
@Simon,
Sorry it felt like we were ganging up on you. I think you offer an interesting perspective. Of course on this site, any point raised is up for debate and that’s good for everyone. As Watchtower slaves we were all told that there was only one truth. Thus we rail against any speech that seems to echo that sentiment. There is always another point of view and while we may not agree with it, it is beneficial for us to hear it. It helps us to learn and grow and to analyze our own position. Many of us have stagnated in personal growth because of the limited view the JW religion imposed on us. So here on this site, what I have observed, is that we tend to want to look at every angle.
When it comes to belief it’s really about choice. You cannot prove beyond any reasonable doubt that God exists, nor can anyone else prove that he doesn’t exist. It comes down to what you choose to believe and showing respect when others make that same choice even in the opposite direction.
I hope you will not give up on the site and will continue to post. As I said before, your perspective, even when it feels like it’s a minority opinion, adds value.
WS
@Simon Kestral.
You say that Jehovah God is real to you and you believe what it says in the Bible about killing 99% of the population on the earth at Armageddon.
I believed that for about 50 years too and when I stopped going to meetings about a year and half ago, I was worried that “what if the Society and the Bible is right about Armageddon, will I be destroyed along with the rest of the world if I stopped going to the meetings?”
Now I don’t worry any more because I did a lot of research about the Bible books and how we got them. The book of Revelation took about 200 years before it was accepted into the Bible Canon and that was with a lot of debate. Jesus never said anything about Armageddon, as was mentioned in earlier comments and Paul never spoke of it either and neither did the Hebrew scriptures.
When we were so indoctrinated with that idea for so many years, we we always afraid of it but every time something bad would happen in the world or a loved one was suffering for some reason or a loved one died, we’d always say “we need the new world”.
For years the Society would say we need the “new” order but then a few years ago, we weren’t supposed to say new “order” but new “world” I supposed because it sounded too much like the illuminati or whatever.
But I am not afraid anymore. When I researched the book of Revelation I also found out about the history of the rest of the Bible and so now I have hard time even believing in a God anymore unless somebody can demonstrate any evidence to me that he even exists.
I picture no earth or no planets or no solar systems or anything. God is supposed to be invisible. So, the invisible God comes along and “creates” all that stuff and puts it all in motion and propels it out into space and all the universes come into existence and everything on the earth came out of nothing?
So, there was an invisible God who “created” all that stuff out of nothing at all. I can’t picture it. If you can picture that and can explain it to me, I will believe.
I used to believe in that invisible God and I prayed with all my heart thinking he was listening to me and when good things happened to me, I thought he was answering my prayers. Now I look at prayers and Armageddon as selfish.
I was supposed to think God for my food and my life etc. and when it came to asking anything from him, it was supposed to be “according” to His will. I feel now that when I was praying to Jehovah God, it was all in my imagination.
If God is real to you, can you explain Him to us so He is real to us too? Thanks
Caroline,
I know your comment was directed at Simon, but I want make mention of this fact: Based on our JW backgrounds most of us tend to anthropomorphize the Creator. Thus many of the commenters refer to he or she (mostly he) when discussing the Creator. I follow suit at times because I realize that this is common practice for most folks.
However when I discuss God I am not necessarily discussing a person. When discussing a biblical passage, of course, God is refered to as a person there. But I propose that this only one way of envisioning the Creator.
I think that when you look at complexities of the universe, the amazing things we are learning about its origin, its behavior, and even its potential demise, there is something divine about it. You could think of it as a person, as a force, or even as simply the universe itself, but I think there is something wondrous and purposeful behind it. We are not just some blind chance event. Life exists with purpose. Perhaps there are others out there (in the cosmos) like us or perhaps we are the first of our kind. But we exist and move for a reason. And part of the wonder of the human experience is finding that purpose and reason.
You can call that reason God. You can envision it as a personality. As long as you don’t use it as an excuse to harm and control others, what you do with it is your choice. And it is your choice to simply believe in nothing. But I propose that there is valid reason to believe in something.
WS
Caroline –
‘I feel now that when I was praying to Jehovah God, it was all in my imagination’.
I feel the same way.
I really did believe that somehow ‘Jehovah’ listened to my prayers; that unexplained feeling, that buzz I used to get conducting Bible studies, the feeling of warmth and peace at night when I opened my heart to him. What was it? Emotion? Hormones?
Who knows? All I do know now is that ‘Jehovah’ is not the name of ‘the true God’ as we had been lead to believe. It has strong links to the Freemasons, who also use it, and their God is Satanic.
So does God really exist? I feel sure that there is a wicked spirit in the World which controls peoples lives and which is also at the heart of Watchtower.
If this exists because of an outside ‘unseen’ force, then I can also believe in an outside ‘unseen’ force that is not evil. This is what I now cling to – that one day ‘a good God’ will again turn his attention to the earth and set matters straight.
As for Armageddon? I believe man has let his ‘God given imagination’ run riot on this subject. I doubt any of us will be around in a thousand years to see it. The horrific things that MANKIND does to each other is enough for us to worry about, and in the name of his religion!
If only people would stick to the principles of ‘Imagine’ by John Lennon, the world would be a happier place ….
Sorry, I probably did over step the mark with my Bible comment. A little bit too preachy I suppose. Sometimes I try a little too hard to encourage, but end up sounding pushy and bossy. Will try to watch my comments and resist the urge to tell everybody what to do.
I just feel sometimes that the lost ones who come on this site need some kind of direction. I know I did, but I guess that is not what this site is all about. It is more about enlightenment of Watchtower’s falseness and having the freedom to talk about it. Will watch my tongue in future. But I don’t want my ex fellow brothers and sisters to feel so lost and unloved by God. Because I know that they must be much loved by God. That is why He has helped set up this site. Anyway, that is just how I think.
Meredith,
I did not see any issues with your comments. We have all left a controlling cult and have all had to reshape our belief systems. It’s something that is our right as humans and that was wrongly denied us by the JW religion. You write based on your newly developed (or redeveloped) faith and that is your right. We all may believe something different and many who are just awakening do know what they believe. Expressions of faith are helpful to all. It helps us understand that there is still room for faith after leaving the JWs. Atheism is not the only alternative. And for those who, after honest contemplation, choose atheism that’s ok too.
WS
Meant to say that many who are just awakening do NOT know what they believe.
…But they SURE know what NOT to believe!!! lol
We definitely all know that anonymous4.
Thanks Winston for your remarks. You are right too. There is much more to leaving the Watchtower behind than atheism, although, it crosses most minds I am sure, even fleetingly, in the hopeless confusion of a crisis of conscience.
Dude I loved this article you nailed it having been a witness for over 25 years I can completly conccur. No witness really wants to come to grips with what the organization really teaches on this subject but you cannot deny it it right there in black and white. And by the way the video clip of Tiny Morris, priceless.
Does anyone know or ever heard of Watchtower suggesting Armageddon to happen not like a mass genocide but instead in the form of “targeted killings” of the wicked POLITICAL, RELIGIOUS and INTELLECTUAL LEADERS of this system of things?
Like the US-american drone war on al-qaida leaders or the Israeli killing of palestinian or hamas or religious leaders.
Yet it doesn’t really work, but keeps Israel in power over the masses of palestinian and arab people.
Is it thinkable of Armageddon as God only killing everyone who dares to OPENLY rebel and stand up against him/his kingdom/his representatives on earth and who tries to TAKE THE LEAD in opposing God’s kingdom?
While all other worldly, non-JW men, women and children are spared from destruction but must stay silent in subjection to the new JW world rulers? Hence, there is hope to “gain them to the Truth” one by one during the millennium. Or to simply die a natural death by failing to gain perfection.
Think of the choice Yazidi women and children are facing in our days from the IS terrorists (to convert or to be enslaved but not necessarily slaughtered).
Think of the Gibeonites (Josua chap. 9)
Or the treatment of inactive ones in congregations that do not come forward as apostates.
Anyone ever heard of this?
@Checker
Russell originally taught something along these lines. It was only during the time of Rutherford that Armageddon became the destruction of all non-JWs. Russell taught that only the governments and institutions would be removed. Most people would be spared. And the rulers of the kingdom would lead them to the pathways of living a happy, fruitful life in harmony with the divine purpose.
WS
@WS: Thanks!
Any hints of Watchtower returning to this theology in the course of a general “smoothening” (liberalisation)?
Or as a possibility to avoid the genocide argument presented in the blog article?
To avoid being banned as religious extremists.
Looking at the comments of another commenter, Average Joe, and I hope I don’t misrepresent his intentions (AJ, please forgive me if I take any liberties and feel free to correct), there may be some potential for more moderate views among the JWs. If you look at Average Joe’s comment on this article posted earlier, you will notice that he is still an active JW (an elder I believe) and indicates that he believes and teaches that at Armageddon God will judge each individual based on their heart condition and regardless of their specific religious affiliation. Only the truly evil will be destroyed.
Back when I was still active, I heard other JWs express similar ideas. It definitely does not fit the mainstream JW dogma as taught by the GB, but it shows a general softening on the part of many JWs. The religion is now big enough, in my opinion, to undergo a major schism and perhaps split into 2 versions: one the more strict or orthodox and one more moderate, much like the schism the Catholic Church experienced many centuries ago.
Their shifting to more electronic media is opening the door for their members to be exposed to more mainstream, moderate ideas and I think it will have an impact. It might take another 20 years as the GB is good at maintaining strict control and demonizing any and all dissenters, but something must give with this Organization. Of course, this is only one possible scenario. There are several others to consider.
WS
@Winston Smith
No liberties at all; you were spot on, on all accounts!
It’s something I’ve believed since I was taught as a child and the fact that God could destroy anyone for simply not being a JW has always stumbled me (I used to cry a lot when I thought about it as a kid). However, as an adult that believes we are all created in God’s image, I still feel that that would be a terrible injustice, so surely God would feel like that too.
The WT study was all about love and unconditional love to boot, well that’s what I commented anyway: if we are to display love towards non-JWs who respond harshly to our message then how much more so to our spiritual brothers and those who no longer want to form a part of our organisation. If we viewed such ones any other way then we would be hypocrites. (There were lots of nods too so there may be hope for some JWs yet!)
To use a phrase from Geoffrey Jackson, I think ‘It would be presumptuous’ of anyone to say her or she will survive a ‘war’ brought about by ‘any’ god that we believe in.
I pray at night…. now I am totally confused about what to call this God I pray to. I recoil at using ‘Jehovah’ simply because I no longer feel I can trust what the WT has indoctrinated into me. So I generally refer to him as Dear Father’…. this goes back to my days pre witness. As a daughter my Dad never objected to me using a title – that was what he was… I never called him by his name…. so i figure God wouldn’t object either as it is still respectful.
If there is to be a destruction of peoples then nothing I say or do will alter the fact ‘he’ sees my heart condition and if I am judged unworthy then so be it – fatalistic perhaps but there is sod all I can do about it. At least I don’t assume I will survive because I tow the line at some hall. Of course the WT will say that by following scripture we stand a chance of survival…. ah so then it becomes conditional… I don’t do conditional anymore. I love my God, I try to be a good person but that is not enough for the WT is it…. I can’t live up to the conditions imposed at temple Warwick so I trust in my God…. I don’t know what else I can do.
That’s really & truly all anyone can do, regardless of belief (or non-belief). It’s the most pragmatic attitude I know. Like I always say, I’ve never met God; I’ve never met anyone who has met God. So it really would be “presumptuous” to impose ideologies on others. Like u said, all we can do is our best.
PS It’s really crazy for people to (sometimes fanatically) impose their beliefs on others. Not talking about anyone commenting on this site. Just in general. I mean, personally I believe in Live & Let Live. As long as no one f***s with me, what do I care what they believe? “The fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt”. It seems so many people are driven to proselytize, because succeeding in converting another, temporarily quells that nagging doubt. Like, Hey, if I can get enough folks to believe this s**t too, then it MUST be true! Kind of reverse logic.
…U believe in something because it’s true. U don’t make something true by believing in it.
@Tara,
Taking for granted that you intend to pray to the Christian God, titles such as Lord, Father, etc. seem appropriate. As Shakespeare wrote ‘what is in a name…a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.’ I think the important part is that you are praying in recognition of a higher power. If that power is truly all-knowing it should righty know who you direct your prayer to regardless of by what name you call it. Based on a few scriptures about the divine name, some of which are poorly translated in the NWT – Romans 10:13 comes to mind – the JWs have an almost superstitious obsession with their interpretation of the name of God. As people who have broke free from their spell, we should not need feel the same dread that they embody. I think that any confusion may be residual of their indoctrination.
I rarely pray in the manner prescribed by JWs. Prayer for me is more of an awe-inspired appreciation of creation or of humanity that moves me into quiet reflection. During such times I often think of terms such as Creator or Father of Creation.
WS
“JWs have an almost superstitious obsession with their interpretation of the name of God”
While shopping recently, I bumped into a local JW. They said how they missed me at the hall. We make small talk but of course they steered the conversation to WT. I said I could talk to them as a friend, but not about WT. I said I still believe in God and Christ but don’t want to talk about WT.
They said as long as I keep serving Jehovah … I said is that a real name, or did a Catholic monk make it up back in the 1200’s?
That simple question was like the shock of a bomb. They quickly left and I said, talk to you some other time.
The apostate police may be knocking on my door soon …
Whatever u do, DON’T answer! lol
@tara. Jesus said in the 6th chapter of Matthew on how to pray and he said ,”OUR FATHER” who Art in Heaven etc, When he hung on the Cross/Stake he Said “Father” for give them , When he said that God cares for all humans he said, Your FATHER in HEaven knows every hair on your head etc. So Tara use the example of Jesus himself and call him Father. It is scriptural and also heartwarming and that is what humans have done for thousands of years.
Thanks guys :) As we know, prayer is personal… I’ll continue approaching ‘my God’ in the most humble and respectful way I deem appropriate.
Spot on
You mentioned Tara that you did not know who to pray to. I am going to throw something into the mix. At Acts 4:11,12 says “He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders , but which became the chief cornerstone. And there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we can be saved.” Of course that is Jesus Christ. Why didn’t they tell us that?
And Watchtower certainly rejected Him as the cornerstone. That’s for sure. There is so much happening at the moment from what I can see on the internet. Jews and Muslims are receiving dreams about Jesus and are becoming Christians. It is amazing. There definitely is something going on which Watchtower is completely deaf to. Those who are on the watch are talking about Jesus returning soon. So there is a revival going on. Of all things I never thought it would happen but for a fact it is.
@Meridtih J. Where do you se all the mentioned Jews and Muslims turning to Christ? Personally I don’t see it. Maybe I am missing something? I see most people at least in USA where I live in the SF Bay Area becoming less and less spiritual and more humanistic and Agnostic. No doubt many are turning to Christ and to God all over the World everyday on an individual level but I don’t see any revival or mass conversion going on.If Some Jews and Muslims are having dreams of Christ do you think that is an indication that they are really turning to him? Or is that really how Christ draws people to him? I am just asking not debating here.
Holy Connoli, it’s not in the Western world silly, it’s in the Middle East
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDAICrsmTpA
Here is one of the many examples of the Jews. The same thing that is happening in Syria and Iran is also happening in Israel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMEkGoojbg
Well, these Youtube recordings may have glitches but I think you get the message. You can look things like this up on Youtube too if you want. No secret. I don’t like the way, when you watch Youtube now, as soon as it is over another video appears. Annoying.
@Meredith:
I was not able to view the videos as there seems to be a problem at my end.
If the conversion of Muslims to Christianity which you mention, has to do with the Syrian refugees, the following articles provide some interesting insights into what is driving this conversion:
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/09/454670739/for-some-muslim-asylum-seekers-in-germany-christianity-beckons
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3225014/How-Muslim-migrants-converting-Christianity-Germany-hundreds-boost-chances-winning-asylum.html
Converting to Christianity will boost the refugees’ asylum claim since they can claim that they will be persecuted if sent back home.
“The refugees or at least some of them are converting because of bread and butter or survival reasons. They have undertaken and braved an arduous journey fraught with peril and they do not want to and cannot go back. The boats have been burnt; whoever offers them a safe haven and the promise of a better life or even survival, they will for instrumental reasons offer their allegiance to them.”
“Survival issues can, as history demonstrated time and again, trump faith and religion; this appears to be happening again on the shores of Europe.”
http://m.firstpost.com/world/saudi-heart-beats-for-syrian-refugees-at-wrong-time-wrong-place-wrong-reason-wont-stop-conversion-to-christianity-2430702.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/november/is-germanys-refugee-crisis-muslim-mission-field.html#bmb=1
Proof that the JWs are apostates too. The JWs like to label dissenters as apostates but they themselves are apostates too – they have vered from the teachings of the founder of the WTBTS, Charles Taze Russell. No wonder they are now claiming that Charles Taze Russell is not the founder of their religion:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/founder/#?insight%5Bsearch_id%5D=1afedb78-87b5-44fb-a6ca-d55bcdbb9454&insight%5Bsearch_result_index%5D=0 :
“Who Was the Founder of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Read why Charles Taze Russell was not the founder of a new religion.”
…….just in case this apostate comment seems out of place, it is a response to the comment above by WS regarding the more liberal teaching about Armageddon by Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the WTBTS.
**veered not vered**
Today, most jehovah’s witnesses know that we use the term “God dishonoring ” to describe the Hell fire doctrine, but really the idea that billions of people would be permanently annilated simply because they didn’t join the watchtower, if they even had an opportunity at that, would seem to be equivalently “dishonoring”. It stands to reason that the org. has just replaced fear of hell with fear of ARMAGETTON.
It’s kinda like the “we don’t pass the collection plate” , but we put contribution box’s everywhere and then remind everyone constantly to give , give , give..even your ice cream money…but we’re not like wicked old Christidom , who are always talking about money. And we don’t have the unbiblical clergy, laity class, no sir..we have O.s./G.C.
Class…a duck is still a duck no matter what you call it…
@Pow
Spot on. True examples of doublespeak. The hypocrisy is clearly evident.
The scriptures they apply to other religions also apply to them:
Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, and disqualified for any good work.”
WS
@pow. I always thought the same thing when I was an active JW. They don’t pass plates but Big deal they are always asking for money other ways. They claim no clergy but exalt the Elders and GB and Pioneers etc. We are not like the other Churches but then they join the United Nations and then Lie about it when they are caught but “promptly” resign when it is brought out in the Newspapers?
Then they condemn Christendom for hell fire teaching but have their own scare tactic teaching of destruction at Armageddon and fear of being DF’d at any time.They are the same as Christendom but just wear a different hat.
@Holy Connoli
I agree except on one point. They are not the “same” as Christendom, they are much worse. They are a controlling cult. And yes there are a few other Christian churches that are just as bad off, but most of the main stream ones just simply teach living a good life, being a good citizen, loving your neighbor, etc.
Oh how I wish I was born Methodist or Lutheran or even Catholic. I have a good friend who is Methodist. They have church meetings and Bible study and seem to enjoy them, but they treat all people with respect and everyone has the freedom to do and think and speak as they please.
WS
“…if they even had an opportunity at that…”
Exactly, & those that had an “opportunity” would be destroyed because they weren’t interested in the latest Awake!’s article on the Samoan Butterfly. lol
@Chiafade
“Jesus could read the heart … are you saying that you can do this as well”
You learn how to read people as you gain experience in life. That’s why older men in the Bible make judgements and decisions.
You can’t succeed in life without acquiring at least some measure of that skill.
Here’s a catch 22 as it relates to this discussion. Back in the early 70’s as 75 drew near, one’s started to question how billions in china, Korea, Russia, Cambodia, ect, could be destroyed without even one opportunity.
The answer was “community responsibility ” in another word’s since they supported their government they should die….however, overthrowing governments is also seen as a manifestation of the spirit if the world…thus they were on Satan’s side if they supported an over through of the government or they didn’t. Thus they deserved death either way.
“community responsibility” – what a joke!
It actually sounds like some kind of Cold War term. An attitude borrowed from the “world”. & now…they ARE a member (NGO) of the most “worldly” organization, the UN.
Catch-22
Hypocrisy
Duplicity
Doublespeak
Two-Faced
Bogus
Phony
Fraud
Fake
…I’ll get Carpal Tunnel Syndrome if I go on
…& THEY criticize people for leading a “double life”!!!
Yep, damned if you do and damned if you don’t, quite literally.
WS
Disgusting rationale!
@Caroline
“So, there was an invisible God who “created” all that stuff out of nothing … If you can picture that and can explain it to me, I will believe.”
“If God is real to you, can you explain Him to us so He is real to us too?”
As a child, my parents sent me to church occasionally, but they mostly stayed home. As a young adult, I had little concern one way or the other about God. I was focused on myself and what I could get from life.
But time and experience changed my view. I did not have a sudden epiphany like some people do. Awareness of God was a gradual process for me.
The evidence for God is freely available. I believe the Bible miracles: Red Sea parting, etc. Either you believe those people were real, or you don’t. If you believe they were real, then you decide if they told the truth. I believe they did.
I don’t know how to explain it any better than that.
@Simon, thank you for the reply. For me to be a believer, I have to have more “evidence” than just a statement that “the evidence for God is freely available” as you said. What is the evidence that you are talking about? As far as I understand, God is invisible, right? You can’t see Him but to believe in Him, we have to believe that he made everything in the universe out of nothing, including all the invisible angels etc. and yet, when you pray to Him, he is always present and can answer your prayers. To truly answer prayers, you would have to be able to ask Him to do something that would be considered a miracle, like “parting the red sea” or raising a dead person from the dead who has been dead for 4 days like Lazarus. Asking him to bless us or thanking him for our food or whatever, to me isn’t really expecting anything out of Him, so, what is the point of praying then if he is really real?
I also believed very strongly in God for many years but now I believe I was just talking to myself with an imaginary God that I had formulated in my own mind. That is why I am not afraid of Armageddon anymore because I don’t believe in the miracles in the Bible, regardless of whether or not those people actually existed or not, which is immaterial.
“What is the evidence that you are talking about? … I don’t believe in the miracles in the Bible, regardless of whether or not those people actually existed or not”
The testimonials of those people, written down in the books of the Bible, is what I’m talking about.
Was Moses an ignorant fool, or did the Red Sea really part, on God’s command? If you prefer the ignorant fool theory, I don’t know how to change your mind.
@Simon
You claim the “evidence” is the testimonials of the people who are quoted in or actually wrote the Bible books. But what about the testimonials of people in the book of Mornon, or the Quran, or the Hindu Vedas? Why are the testimonials of people in the Bible valid evidence, but not those of other ancient writings?
WS
None of the other guys parted the Red Sea. None of the other guys called down fire from heaven. None of the other guys appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus.
The Bible ties it all together. The other holy men and holy books are fakers. As a former elder, you know that. Don’t you?
Simon,
“None of the other guys parted the Red Sea”
By what evidence do you know the Red Sea was parted other than the Bible’s claim that it occurred? You accept that as fact based on no other evidence than that the Bible says so. The other proposed holy texts make their own claims about their own miracles having occurred. By what evidence do you show that the Bible record is accurate yet all the other claims are “fakers”?
You accept the claims of the Bible because that’s what you are familiar with. It’s part of your culture. But what about someone born in the middle of India to a devout Hindu family? They would likely accept the Vedas and all their teachings as true because that’s what they know, that’s what’s familiar. Do you see the issue? There is no absolute proof that the Bible is the only true word of God, just as there is no absolute proof the the Vedas are the only true word of God. It’s all subjective and relative, not absolute.
So let’s take this a step further. Suppose there is a person born in the middle of India to a devout Hindu family. When they grow up they are moral, clean, love God, and love their neighbor. But everything they do is according to the Vedas and not the bible because that is all they know. So now it comes time for Armageddon. Will God execute him merely because he happened to be born in the wrong part of the world? Would not that be a wicked perversion of justice? The Bible says: “Indeed, it is true that God does not act wickedly and the Almighty does not pervert justice.” Job 34:12.
WS
Simon, do you know of any evidence that upwards of two million people were living in the area of the Red Sea for forty years at which time, Moses and those Israelites went from Egypt to the “promised land”? I don’t think there is any evidence and there should be lots since it was supposedly such a long period of time and so many people, according to what the Bible says.
My point is that unless those events in the Bible actually happened and there’s evidence of it outside of the Bible, then why be afraid of what it says?
I am not referring to if those people actually lived or not. I am referring to the miracles, if there is any kind of proof that they happened.
“As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we show genuine love in this disunited, violent, wicked world that is under Satan’s control. (1 John 5:19) Surely, love will dominate every activity on earth in the new world after Satan, his demons, and rebellious humans have been removed from the scene. What a blessing it will be when all inhabitants of the earth love God and their neighbor.”
This is an excerpt from their Dec 2015 study edition. It shows that this teaching stills goes strong in JW dogma. When JWs say neighbor they really mean other witnesses. “How wonderful to see them slaugh…We mean removed from the scene.”
Who really is my neighbor? Well apparently Samaritans back in the first century, but any non-JWs living today are just pond scum. And let us not even mention those mentally-diseases apostates!
(Please overlay sarcastic vocal inflections)
WS
“Surely, love will dominate every activity on earth in the new world…”
LOL
Does that include sitting on the loo??
A4
Well…I suppose after a big meal…I guess you could say that I “love” to………on second thought best not to finish that thought…LOL
WS
And why does it require so much death and destruction in order for love to dominate everything. And is that really the best word to use with Love…DOMINATE???? Wouldn’t be better to say that loves permeates or flows rather than DOMINATE? It seems to have a hidden meaning or Freudian slip there…
WS
As in u r gonna be loved to death….what stronger validation do we need then you do it my way or die…….today, it’s claimed that the org. is not like the medieval Catholic Chruch..but, even they claimed that the.inquisition was an act of love….Yes, better to put to death by the inquisitors and stand a chance at forgiveness then to die in this life as a sinner and go to Hell forever..
You see it’s all about saving lives…
On the topic of harmagedon. I watched a show on the history channel about 666 the number of the beast in the book of revelation. In Ephesus a wall was uncovered that explains the rules about an ancient hebrew game called gematria, every letter has a corresponding numeric value. Summing these numbers gives a numeric value to a word or name. Many scholars typically support the numerical interpretation that 666 is the equivalent of the name and title, Nero Caesar (Roman Emperor from 54-68). Nero was called a beast by his enemies. Revelation was written before the destruction of the Temple, with Nero exiling John to Patmos. Revelation was written after Nero committed suicide in AD 68. Revelation was written during the latter part of the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian, probably in A.D. 95 or 96 Revelation 13 speaks of a future prophetic event, “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8), some have argued that the interpretation of Nero meeting the fulfillment is an impossibility if Revelation was written around 30 years after the death of Nero. However, rumors circulated that Nero had not really died and would return to power.It has also been suggested that the numerical reference to Nero was a code to imply but not directly point out emperor Domitian, whose style of rulership resembled that of Nero and who put the people of Asia (Lydia), whom the Book of Revelation was primarily addressed to at the time, under heavy taxation.The popular Nero Redivivus legend stating that Nero would return to life can also be noted; “After Nero’s suicide in AD 68, there was a widespread belief, especially in the eastern provinces, that he was not dead and somehow would return (Suetonius, LVII; Tacitus, Histories II.8; Dio, LXVI.19.3). Suetonius (XL) relates how court astrologers had predicted Nero’s fall but that he would have power in the east. And, indeed, at least three false claimants did present themselves as Nero redivivus (resurrected).”
After all the fuss made about 666 and the wild beast, it would be funny if apostle John was just talking about emperor Nero.
Actually, the oldest extant fragment containing the number of the beast has it as 616. It would appear that 666 may well be (yet another) scribal error. just goes to show that you can’t get too hung up over the fine details in the bible. One word can change the entire meaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast
That’s amazing. It all reminds me of smoke and mirrors. Tonight I watched a show about mechanical devices used in ancient times for fooling people trying to contact the dead. They found an old ancient device that was a crank that unwound a rope that an oracle hung from so the people who were on hallucinogenics and who had no sleep and had fasted for several days would think the oracle being lowered was coming from the spirit world. A text was found explaining someone lowering the oracle let go of the crank. After the oracle bounced the oracle said “the underworld let go abruptly.” I think that’s hilarious. Can you imagine? That sounds like something you would see in a movie.
I watched the new X Files last night…. The truth is out there…. I believe in Mulder……
U guys are forgetting the REALLY important number – 668 – The NEIGHBOR of the Beast!!!
And he’s way cuter than Scully.
Did you know and it is circulating on the internet that the year 2016 is made up of :
666+666+666+6+6+6
I don’t know what it means but how interesting?
I love that.
Seems like the originator of this equation took some lessons in biblical mathematics from the Watchtower. lol.
From studying all the different, crazy biblical numerology used by the Watchtower over the years as well as others, I believe you can manipulate numbers to add up to whatever you want them to.
JWFacts.com has a great list of many of the different end of the world predictions at: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/apocalyptic-end-of-world-predictions.php
WS
A “Global Flood” that covered the highest mountain,( even if
that mountain were only one mile high, let alone the 5 mile
Everest or the 3 mile plus Mt. Ararat, where the Ark is supposed
to have ended up.)- Is a physical and mathematical impossibility.
The required amount of water suspended as vapour in the
atmosphere and beyond would extend for 18000 miles.
Such a mass would blot out the Sun and end all life, as would
the internal pressure created at the earths surface.
All the logistics, the gathering and care for all the livestock,
(Was it 2 of each or 7 of each? I suppose it depends who was
telling the tale.). And did they carry extra animals for the
carnivores to feed on? Such a tiny crew ! I don’t know of any
Zoo in the World that could operate with 8 employees?
Everything marks it out as a myth, maybe based on a minor
event that got better with the telling. But as already suggested,
logic and facts just bounce off when a belief is fixed in the mind.
Awkward questions are resolved by invoking God and miracles.
The 2000 year expectation of Armageddon is also in the myth
category. Even some disciples asked “What’s the delay”
Peter responded with “God is not slow” ( where have I heard
that before?,) The World will end one day through Entropy,–
Decay, it’s an undeniable fact not a myth.
Our life is a mere blip in cosmic time, like a “Blade of grass”
(Yes he got that right). My life was controlled and constricted
for almost 30 years by means of a book that is no more than
folk lore, nationalistic propaganda and forgery. Thank God
I snapped out of it. ( Ignore the first part of that comment)
it’s difficult to stop using such expressions. The brainwashing
starts as children as soon as we become cognisant. Fiction
stated as bald fact.
A “Global Flood” that covered the highest mountain,( even if
that mountain were only one mile high, let alone the 5 mile
Everest or the 3 mile plus Mt. Ararat, where the Ark is supposed
to have ended up.)- Is a physical and mathematical impossibility.
The required amount of water suspended as vapour in the
atmosphere and beyond would extend for 18000 miles.
Such a mass would blot out the Sun and end all life, as would
the internal pressure created at the earths surface.
All the logistics, the gathering and care for all the livestock,
(Was it 2 of each or 7 of each? I suppose it depends who was
telling the tale.). And did they carry extra animals for the
carnivores to feed on? Such a tiny crew ! I don’t know of any
Zoo in the World that could operate with 8 employees?
Everything marks it out as a myth, maybe based on a minor
event that got better with the telling. But as already suggested,
logic and facts just bounce off when a belief is fixed in the mind.
Awkward questions are resolved by invoking God and miracles.
The 2000 year expectation of Armageddon is also in the myth
category. Even some disciples asked “What’s the delay”
Peter responded with “God is not slow” ( where have I heard
that before?,) The World will end one day through Entropy,–
Decay, it’s an undeniable fact not a myth.
Our life is a mere blip in cosmic time, like a “Blade of grass”
(Yes he got that right). My life was controlled and constricted
for almost 30 years by means of a book that is no more than
folk lore, nationalistic propaganda and forgery. Thank God
I snapped out of it. ( Ignore the first part of that comment)
it’s difficult to stop using such expressions. The brainwashing
starts as children as soon as we become cognisant. Fiction
stated as bald fact.
A “Global Flood” that covered the highest mountain,( even if
that mountain were only one mile high, let alone the 5 mile
Everest or the 3 mile plus Mt. Ararat, where the Ark is supposed
to have ended up.)- Is a physical and mathematical impossibility.
The required amount of water suspended as vapour in the
atmosphere and beyond would extend for 18000 miles.
Such a mass would blot out the Sun and end all life, as would
the internal pressure created at the earths surface.
All the logistics, the gathering and care for all the livestock,
(Was it 2 of each or 7 of each? I suppose it depends who was
telling the tale.). And did they carry extra animals for the
carnivores to feed on? Such a tiny crew ! I don’t know of any
Zoo in the World that could operate with 8 employees?
Everything marks it out as a myth, maybe based on a minor
event that got better with the telling. But as already suggested,
logic and facts just bounce off when a belief is fixed in the mind.
Awkward questions are resolved by invoking God and miracles.
The 2000 year expectation of Armageddon is also in the myth
category. Even some disciples asked “What’s the delay”
Peter responded with “God is not slow” ( where have I heard
that before?,) The World will end one day through Entropy,–
Decay, it’s an undeniable fact not a myth.
Our life is a mere blip in cosmic time, like a “Blade of grass”
(Yes he got that right). My life was controlled and constricted
for almost 30 years by means of a book that is no more than
folk lore, nationalistic propaganda and forgery. Thank God
I snapped out of it. ( Ignore the first part of that comment)
it’s difficult to stop using such expressions. The brainwashing
starts as children as soon as we become cognisant. Fiction
stated as bald fact.
@Twmack
Multiple repeats aside, very good points. The limited space for all the animals is significant. The argument that Noah only took certain kinds from which all others were bread requires extremely quick evolution, well beyond any theory of punctuated equilibrium.
And why are certain animals only in specific locations? So there were platypuses, koala bears, and kangaroos on the ark and after it landed at mount Ararat they proceeded to walk, then swim to Australia and none of them reproduced or died along the way and they were able to take along enough food specific to their species to survive? That may be a greater miracle that the flood itself. Is it not more reasonable to think that if this event happened at all, that it was much more localized?
WS
No, the recent word ( last few years directly from platform ) is that one must b a baptized, active, in good-standing witness in order to survive..(meaning ..keeping hrs up, drone acting, s hool participation, commenting briefly from literature, submissive). Everyone else is killed. Those with family who have left or are inactive will nod and agree with this at the hall.. *brain off syndromesickening..this is one of the reasons I can’t stomach a meeting anymore, even though I intended to fade a bit slower than I am.
I would have to look thru past WTs, but I believe it days this pretty directly in study articles..I’ll post with my findings..
My feelings am trying to fade but now find meetings sickening .still take wife to meetings somtimes just drop off and collect .it now gives me panic attacks
@Johnshipl,
I know the feeling. I went through the same things at the beginning of my fade. I used to sit in the meetings and replay my favorite movies in my head so I could shut out the mindless drivel from the platform.
My wife still goes too, but she drives so I don’t have to pick up / drop off. I still go to the memorial to keep my parents off my back. I dread it.
I used to get the panic attacks too. But I can say that with time they get less pervasive and easier to resist. I find it helpful to keep thinking that you are the one in control. They have no authority over you. It’s almost like a way to rebel: “I’m not going to let them control me in that way.”
Fight the good fight. All things will pass.
WS
@Twmack
The scientific fact that the world will end one day is very sobering. Scientists are aware that life on earth cannot last much more than another three billion years due to the death of the sun. It is a scientific fact that the sun being a star, will die like all stars do. As the sun goes through its death throes it will either consume the earth or simply render life on earth impossible:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fDjldLXzAsw
This scientific fact certainly doesn’t do much for the JW’s claim that god’s plan is for mankind to live forever on a Paradise earth.
Those bible writers sure managed to fool a lot of people with their nationalistic propaganda – they must be laughing to themselves at all those people they have been able to dupe into believing that they are the chosen nation.
This is only true if you believe that the Sun is powered internally. All measurements (Heat distribution and amount of Neutrinos being expelled) show that this Theory is not right.
@Deep Thinker
If I understand you correctly, are you saying that the sun will never die?
As I understand it, simply stated, the process of nuclear fusion which takes place in the sun, which is a star, converts hydrogen into helium and light energy – the light energy is needed to sustain life on earth. The sun has a finite supply of hydrogen fuel which will be exhausted eventually by the nuclear fusion process and so the sun cannot therefore go on burning forever.
Also, what about the many other prominent stars in our Milky Way galaxy that are currently dying? They include: Aldebaran (Alpha Tauri), Arcturus (Alpha Bootis), Gamma Crucis (Gacrux), Antares (Alpha Scorpii), and Betelgeuse (Alpha Orionis).
What is the difference between these stars and the sun? Why are these stars dying but the sun won’t die (if I understand you correctly)?
I would be grateful for any references regarding your alternate theory.
TX.
I am not saying that the sun cannot explode, what I am saying is that the Sun and all stars and galaxies are powered externally – not internally.
The present model is gravity centric 17th century thinking and does not take into account the electrical nature of the universe.
Two Web Sites that can get you started into Plasma Physics and what really drives the universe and what happened to the earth about 10,000 years ago are the following.
http://www.holoscience.com
Check out the Synopsis Pages
and
http://www.thunderbolts.info
Hopefully by that time mankind will have (dare I say it) evolved to the point where they will be able to live beyond the confines of this planet.
WS
Sorry about the repeated comment,please remove
the extra if poss,
They would barely have had any time to feed or care for all the animals. Most of their waking day would be consumed by shoveling & throwing overboard the literally tons of poop! No point surviving the flood only to drown in poop!
Gotta love the Witnesses’ use of “love”. That 1 word has been used to manipulate more people than anything, from a personal to a mass level. “If u love me, u’ll do this or that.” “If u loved me, u wouldn’t do that, or think that, or believe that.” “If u love God / Yahweh / Jehovah / Allah / Whoever, u will do this or that; if u don’t, u r a bad, loveless person.” Like, I am the Master of Love, & if u don’t do as I dictate, I have the “authority” to deem u a bad, loveless soul, & ostracize u from all the decent, “loving” ones. Reminiscent of the Ministry of Love in Orwell’s 1984.
Here’s an interesting Wikipedia comment I just stumbled on, in ref to 1984’s “doublethink”:
the novel explicitly shows people learning Doublethink and newspeak due to peer pressure and a desire to “fit in”, or gain status within the Party — to be seen as a loyal Party Member. In the novel, for someone to even recognize – let alone mention – any contradiction within the context of the Party line was akin to blasphemy, and could subject that someone to possible disciplinary action and to the instant social disapproval of fellow Party Members.
If u liked that, u’ll love this:
Doublethink is the act of ordinary people simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.[1] Doublethink is related to, but differs from, hypocrisy and neutrality. Somewhat related but almost the opposite is cognitive dissonance, where contradictory beliefs cause conflict in one’s mind. Doublethink is notable due to a lack of cognitive dissonance — thus the person is completely unaware of any conflict or contradiction.
Is that the ultimate definition of a Zombie, or am I way off here?
I love Zombies. I watched a movie where when vampire bats bit people they turned into zombies. The first to go was the police officer. He ran from the vampire bats trying to swat them away like flies and he ran through a door that didn’t have steps so he flew through the air like superman landing on his face. To me that sounds as intelligent as a watchtower lesson.
If u’re into Zombie flicks, Netflix has a bunch, including The Walking Dead, which I highly recommend.
@A4
Great Stuff. I just got a hold of an audiobook for 1984 and have been listening to it lately. Read it some years ago near the beginning of my awakening. Of course, the name I post under is the name of the main character.
WS
I read the book at school & completely forgot about it until the last couple of years during my wake up. Out of the 2 movies, I prefer recommending the first one (the black & white version) to watch because of it’s simplicity. The 2nd one just seems a bit too psychedelic & I don’t think still ins would get the connection.
It often get the impression that it would be a curse rather than a blessing to survive Armageddon. Remember, the Society teaches that death is like falling asleep with no pain. They declare that Armageddon occurs because people are so wicked. Yet the wicked are said to die a painless death and will be in a state of unconsciousness in the grave while the eight million or so Witnesses clean up the mess left by Armageddon. As Wilbur Lingle says, “The god of the Watchtower Society seems to be much kinder to the wicked than he is to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I would not want to be on earth inhaling the stench of the dead bodies and watching billions of worms eating them up!” Maybe I’m too squeamish.
Hi James Broughton mentioned a comment from Wilbur Lingle. I was not sure if this is a book quote or someone posting but Iv’e thought so much about the point made. I have to agree the god of the Watchtower Society seems to be much kinder to the wicked than he is to JWs. Think about that for a moment folks. Us born ins from our conception we were not welcome, never praised unless we “contributed” in some way to the org. The threat of being reported to elders when naughty as youngsters, not allowed pets as they take away time from theocratic activities ,the list is endless. Then the urgency to get baptised young with never a mention of the fine print only to be kicked out if caught out for some random crime and misdemeanour against a shadowy authority figure. Or the other scenario a goody two shoes child never out of place, pioneers forever and never marries or breeds but wakes up and gives up. Having never celebrated a birthday or received any thanks or recognition for years of giving and sacrifice. The end result for both examples is Death because the moment the big A comes both are substandard ie not in good standing. What the hell is good standing anyway? This god the watchtower plot has hatched is nasty, not safe and keeps account of the injury. He must channel all that hate and disappointment into the GBs rule book to filter down to the cringing minions. Tight pants tone takes delight in grimming his face and demonizing The Almighty, for tony’s pleasure not anyone elses. If people want the hell of Armageddon they will surely get it with Tone and the Goons at the helm brandishing a large blue flag waving in the breeze and sick blind sheep awaiting the slaughter.All their theatrical nonsense produces a petty god not a loving creator . Its all too confusing for aminion like me who is never gonna die. Do you know folks i’m never going to die since 1925 I wasn’t even born til1965 aint that a miracle! ruthlee
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only son that all those in GOOD STANDING with the JW Religion might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”
Oh I am sorry, is that not the correct rendering?
Great points ruthlee
WS
That should read “I often get…” Apologies.
Not to mention the mind-numbing boredom of spending Eternity sitting on a blanket, playing with a Panda, & learning more about “Jehovah”. LOL Someone pointed out that, according to scripture, the ‘resurrected’ cannot die…With 1 exception – Death by Boredom.
Playing with a pandas…in their dreams!
Most of the Witnesses I knew hated nature & couldn’t handle being around animals. Where we live our property backs on to a National Park & wildlife reserve. We have acreage & have farm animals & often we would have Witnesses over for parties. I would smile & shake my head as I watched them cringe with the smell of the livestock & wouldn’t go near them. What a joke. They wouldn’t even pat the dog. I could see the look on their faces as if the animals were disgusting to them. I would say to them “if you can’t handle this. What are you going to do in the new system? When you have to start preparing your own food & not going to the supermarket for everything”.
I’m sure that their idea of the “new system” would be a Truman style of suburbia or that cities would be okay by then. Even the pictures of the new world were unrealistic to me.
Good point. Come to think of it, I don’t recall many outdoorsy types in the Borg.
Most in my cong regard animals as food or vermin. They never really ‘got me’ and my love of animals. Even those who have animals would abandon them if the Borg. said to.
It seems we are taking Armageddon as a jock as we forget a powerful organization behind preaching “Armageddon”!
Here are hints:
“Judah’s choice is this: Eat or be eaten”(ip-1 chap. 3 p. 29 par. 18)!
(Hosea 13:16) . . .Sa·marʹi·a will be held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. By the sword they will fall, Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.”
Jehovah (=Humans behind the name) is a dictator: ARMAGEDDON IS REAL!
Nonetheless, the point still is, that even biblical there is alot of ambiguity as to what ARMAGETTON is, along with zero reason to belive that survival depends on being an active member of the watchtower bible and tract society of Pennsylvania, and following unquestionably there leadership starting with the original faithful slave, now identified as none other then Joseph Rutherford. ..
Hi Cover Fade,
Excellent article. You took the words out of my mouth.
I believe that a good way to test the logic and reasonableness of Armageddon teaching is to try to explain it with simple words, but with all the details, to a child and wait for the reaction. This is when the (reasonable and “wise”) adults understands the madness and cruelty of all it.
Good point Estevao
Thomas Paine wrote: Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true.
WS
Hi folks,
There have been some comments made about 666 so I thought I would add my tidbit. I had done some research that said 616 was the Latin equivalent for Nero and that 666 was the Hebrew form for Nero. It would make sense that John would be very careful about naming a treacherous man. This “code” would serve as a protection to John which would be especially true if Revelation were written pre-70 while Nero was still alive. I apologize that I can not offer my reference information. I did this research sometime past.
Regards
Thank you. I feel history is interesting.
The problem is, is that we are judging the people who wrote the Bible with ourselves, and you cannot do that. They are not the same as us, and you can see the change from them to us if you read the Bible in chronological order (when the book was actually written).
The God of the Bible is a very vengeful God, and the only difference many times is the name. The Jew’s sacrificed, had temples, festivals, etc. but over time morphed into a more caring and loving god.
It appears that the writers (and most if not all of humankind) had a bicameral mind in the past that resulted in a definite schizophrenic writing style that ended about 2500 years ago in the breakdown of the bicameral mind to the minds of today where only one side of the brain is in control.
The talk about armagedon by tony morris describing burnt bodies looking like hot dogs burnt and split open .and the reminding those listening that this is what they are gona see.is very disterbing considering there may have been children in the Audience. It does show the mindset of these men who claim to be ” of the lords anointed” very creepy.!
The talk about armagedon by tony morris describing burnt bodies looking like hot dogs burnt and split open .and the reminding those listening that this is what they are gona see.is very disterbing considering there may have been children in the Audience. It does show the mindset of these men who claim to be ” of the lords anointed” very creepy.!
The way Tony Morris talked about harmagedon made me think of a show I saw on the science channel. It was interesting. The show explained that the area above the right ear within the brain is the area that controls what we call our conscience, our sense of right and wrong. The program showed actual experiments doctors did on volunteers to see if this area of the brain can be effected. The program showed how emotion, mental illness, drug abuse, EGO stroke and even other areas of the brain can interfere with that. I feel Tony Morris needs to exercise that area of his brain. He’s an idiot. He says dumb things. His ego causes him to run his mouth.
EGO => DIARRHEA OF THE MOUTH
I think Anthony Morrislll has early onset dementia.
@Winston
“There is no absolute proof that the Bible is the only true word of God … It’s all subjective and relative, not absolute”
You may think that, but I know better. If you won’t believe Moses and Elijah, you won’t believe miracles either. That’s what Jesus said. A former elder should know that.
Elijah called down fire from heaven and killed 102 soldiers. Did they all deserve to die while doing their job? I don’t know. Not my concern. I defer the weighty decisions of life and death to God, and pray to be safe when the fire comes.
Simon,
You seem fixated on the fact that I was once an elder – you have mentioned it in your last two or three comments. I am not sure what is behind this. Feel free to elaborate if you wish. You seem to be dumbstruck by the fact that an elder can question the authenticity of the scriptures.
It’s quite alright if you want to accept the Bible as God’s word. It’s your right to do so. But you offer no external evidence to justify this belief. Saying that the bible is God’s word because it says so is circular reasoning. I can simply argue back that the Hindu Vedas are God’s word because they say so. Now we are at an impasse. You have your belief in the Bible because it’s what you want to believe and I have my believe in the Vedas because that’s what I want to believe. Because neither of us is willing to find any common ground outside our own belief systems we can make no progress.
By the way I don’t believe in the Hindu Vedas per se, I am only using this for the point of anology. Forgive me if I say that I find your reasoning somewhat close-minded and I hope to open your mind just a bit of i can.
You mention not believing in Jesus miracles. I wasn’t around to see any of Jesus miracles and I don’t think that you were either. Why do you believe in them then? Because some people, who were trying to justify a new religion by the way, happened to write about them many years after he died? It’s okay for you to choose to believe in them, but please recognize that it is because you want to do so. You have no real evidence. And with such a lack of evidence, there is no logical reason for me to believe in them. That’s my choice. But it seems that you want to pass judgement based on something that is solely a matter of personal choice. Some of this may be residual from your JW indoctrination (really, except for a few minor criticisms you seem quite devoted to their teachings). I just want to encourage you to open your mind a bit and try to see things from other people’s perspective. After all, is that not the spirit of Matthew 7:12?
WS
Simon
In response to your comment “That’s what Jesus said. A former elder should know that” I just want to add that knowing what the Bible says and accepting it as God’s word are two different things.
I believe that there is a Creator of the universe. However he does not speak to us through prophets or holy books. Rather he speaks to us through the marvels of creation. Holy books such as the Bible or the Vedas are examples of mankind’s attempts to understand the creator. Therefore I have respect for them and find value in some of their concepts. However, being the work of men, I don’t blindly accept everything they say or use them to condemn others.
What I mention above are some of the concepts of Deism. Solely for the purpose of helping you gain perspective on my belief system (not to evangelize in any way), I suggest The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine as a good reference. It can be read online at:
http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/AOR-Frame.html
WS
Hello Big B:
RE: your clarifying my comment about the immortality of those in the earthly resurrection.
I recall that the WT taught as you have stated in your comment a few posts back, regarding the earthly and heavenly resurrections.
According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 and will conclude at the outbreak of the Great Tribulation; any remaining ones of the 144,000 on earth when the Great Tribulation starts will be taken to heaven – the 144,000 will not be on earth to experience the Great Tribulation.
**Revelation, Its Grand Climax At Hand! p. 103**
“All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914 and his riding forth to start his kingly conquest by cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons.”
So the WT’s heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 occurs in THIS AGE which concludes with the Great Tribulation and Armageddon according to WT theology.
According to Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):
“The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and THEY CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
According to Luke 20:34-36, the resurrection of those who can no longer die takes place in THE AGE TO COME not in THIS AGE.
According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 takes place in THIS AGE, whereas the earthly resurrection will take place in THE AGE TO COME. There is no heavenly resurrection in THE AGE TO COME according to WT theology. So , since the only resurrection that will take place in THE AGE TO COME according to WT theology will be the earthly resurrection, then it is to the WT’s earthly resurrection that Luke 20:34-36 applies. Such persons who will be resurrected on earth, can no longer die.
@Big B cont’d:
Also, on reading Revelation 20, I note that there are two resurrections as follows:
1. The first:
– is of persons who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands – so they will be on earth during the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (the Great Tribulation).
– these persons came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
– The second death has no power over them – so they are immortal, they cannot die. This is assumed to be the heavenly resurrection.
2. The second:
– is of persons who are described as the rest of the dead who did not come to life until the thousand years were ended (Revelation 20:5).
– is after the thousand years so no resurrection occurs during the millennium.
– of these persons there will be those whose names are not found in the book of life who will consequently experience the second death, so they are not immortal.
The persons of the first resurrection who will be granted immortality, had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands – so they will be on earth during the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (the Great Tribulation). The WT applies the first resurrection of Revelation 20 to the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 but that application is not appropriate since the WT’s 144,000 will not be on earth during the rule of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (Great Tribulation).
It’s also interesting to note that according to Revelation 20:5:
“the rest of the dead did not COME TO. LIFE until the thousand years were ended” – so there is no resurrection during the millennium. The resurrections occur at the beginning and at the end of the millennium yet the WT claims that there will be a progressive resurrection during the millennium of all the persons who died before Armageddon.
The WT resorts to an ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” as meaning something else than resurrection:
**Revelation It’s Grand Climax is at Hand (1988)**
“By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “COME TO LIFE” in the sense that they will be perfect humans.”
The irony is that this definition of “COMING TO LIFE” contradicts the previous use of the same expression as referring to the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4): “And they CAME TO LIFE and ruled askings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
**Revelation It’s Grand Climax at Hand (1988)**
“Most of them are already very much alive, since they rode with Jesus against the nations at Armageddon. (Revelation 2:26, 27; 19:14) Indeed, Paul indicated that their RESURRECTION commences soon after the beginning of Jesus’ presence in 1914 and that some are RESURRECTED before others. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, their COMING TO LIFE occurs over a period of time as they individually receive the gift of immortal life in the heavens.—2 Thessalonians 1:7; 2 Peter 3:11-14.
The ad hoc interpretation of “COMING TO LIFE” as “attaining perfection” during the thousand years (with no attempt to provide supporting evidence) is a blatant attempt to avoid the plain meaning of these verses.
According to WT theology “COMING TO LIFE” has two different meanings in the same chapter of Revelation – it means “resurrection” in Revelation 20:4 but in the next verse, Revelation 20:5, it means “attaining perfection”.
@Big B
Another point I would like to mention:
Those who are granted the first resurrection of Revelation 20, reign with Christ for 1000 years.
According to WT theology, the heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914. (Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand 1988, pg. 103)
So given that, according to WT theology:
– Christ commenced reigning in 1914
– the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 (the gathering of the 144,000 commenced with the founding of Christianity in 30CE)
BUT assuming that Christ’s 1000-year reign is yet future, then it is clear that the 144,000 will rule with Christ for more than 1000 years.
So the application of the first resurrection of Revelation 20 by the WT to the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 is inappropriate since the WT’s 144,000 reign with Christ for more than 1000 years whereas those granted the first resurrection of Revelation 20 reign with Christ for ONLY 1000 years.
******All references to the Great Tribulation (GT) above are as per WT teachings, I am not endorsing a future GT – as I recall, the WT teaches that the GT is yet future and coincides with the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13.
I was just thinking if the area above the right ear within the brain controls what we call our conscience, and things can interfere with that and the only thing that causes a man to do what he wouldn’t otherwise do is VAGINA (have sex) then it’s sad he would be killed at harmagedon. Some times I feel like God set us up for failure.
LOL
I wonder about that too. I mean, He put us on a planet teeming with organisms that are constantly trying to kill us. It has a weather system so hostile we need to build shelters to keep from either freezing to death or dying of thirst. He gave us bodies that one would think were designed to become worn-down & arthritic. Our sun is evidently going to explode 1 day, & scientists still aren’t sure if the whole universe is going to implode or just fizzle out of existence. & we’re supposed to attribute all this to a benevolent, loving Creator who has our best interests & happiness at heart??? Whatever u believe, it’s a fact that our ancestors had to sharpen sticks & go hunting for woolly mammoths while themselves being stalked by saber-toothed tigers!!! I mean, I still believe in God, but WTF???
The bible’s explanation of Original Sin is woefully inadequate. It states the penalty for sin is death. Death means death, not birth defects, blindness, deafness, paralysis, malaria, typhoid, AIDS, SARS, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, fibromyalgia, depression, day-to-day struggle for survival, etc, etc, etc. I just heard a story about a virus being transmitted by mosquitoes in South America. Pregnant women who are bitten give birth to babies with abnormally small brains. What could possibly be the purpose of that??? I mean, why mosquitoes in the 1st place, & why a virus like that? I can understand why many are atheists. I don’t believe in a “loving” God or an “angry” God, more like a generally apathetic God. Yes, it’s probably a weird belief, but that’s me.
I don’t buy the explanation that due to Original Sin, “the whole of creation was subjected to futility”, either. That may explain why lions & tigers eat other animals, but it sure doesn’t explain why they have such long, sharp teeth & claws. Or why sharks have rows & rows of serrated, razor-sharp teeth. Or why the Great White Shark is a pure killing machine, literally. When its stomach gets full, it immediately regurgitates everything & starts over. What is the point of that??? Nor does Original Sin & “futility” explain the existence of viruses!!! I’m sorry, but after doing the math, I don’t see a “God of love”, more like a sort-of loving God. Could be He’s somewhat of a practical joker.
Sorry this comment really doesn’t have a point. I just needed to vent. Who knows, maybe there will be another life where things aren’t as crazy.
PS At the risk of going off-topic again, I know there r sci-fi & fantasy fans here. Our hostile planet reminded me of the prison planet Salusa Secundus, of Frank Herbert’s “Dune” (c. 1965), voted by readers as the greatest work of imagination of all time (yes, even over LOTR). I highly recommend it, but make sure u get the ORIGINAL (just DUNE, c. 1965) – there are a million sequels, all with “DUNE” in the title. (also a movie & a miniseries). ’nuff said.
A4,
Your logic is sound. The whole ‘fall from grace’ (a.k.a.) original sin fails to explain these various issues. Plus mankind is constantly getting better, evolving, not getting worse as these teachings insist.
All life has evolved for its own preservation. Thus sharks have teeth, tigers have claws, etc. One biologist made the comment that evolution is somewhat “lazy.” What he meant that if it is just good enough to get by, then it will continue in the same manner. Hence why the great white shark has such faulty eating habits. It was, at least at one time, just enough for the creature to survive. There is no striving in nature to be more than adequate or to do more than maintain the status quo. It seems only humans have evolved to the level to desire to achieve exceptional greatness.
WS
Thank you. That explains a lot. I guess I must reconcile my belief in God with Evolution, so that, if He exists, He set everything in motion (like with a Big Bang), & let it all evolve on its own. Otherwise, either He doesn’t exist, or He really is a murdering psychopath.
Those are the basic options, my friend. I went with option #1. Others have opted for #2. Option #3 is probably the scariest of them all.
WS
Here’s an interesting Wikipedia comment about NGOs:
Advocacy and public education NGOs affect global affairs in its ability to modify behavior through the use of ideas. Communication is the weapon of choice used by advocacy and public-education NGOs in order to change people’s actions and behaviors. They strategically construct messages to not only shape behavior, but to also socially mobilize communities in promoting social, political, or environmental changes.
All these people struggling in research and other intervention to build a strong human society will be destroyed at Armageddon just because they have not listened to JWs?
*** g96 11/22 p. 28 Watching the World ***
Childbearing Tragedy
About 585,000 women die each year during pregnancy or while giving birth, says a new comprehensive survey by UNICEF (United Nations Children’s Fund). According to the report The Progress of Nations 1996, much of the childbearing tragedy is preventable. It states: “For the most part, these are the deaths not of the ill, or the very old, or the very young, but of healthy women in the prime of their lives.” Some 75,000 women die each year because of botched abortions; 40,000 as a result of obstructed labor; 100,000 from blood poisoning; 75,000 from brain and kidney damage of eclampsia (convulsions and high blood pressure late in pregnancy); and over 140,000 because of hemorrhaging. Shortage of obstetric care in many lands is said to be largely responsible. UNICEF officials say that the data indicates that 1 in 35 women in South Asia and 1 in 13 in sub-Saharan Africa dies of matters related to pregnancy and childbirth, as compared with 1 in 7,300 in Canada, 1 in 3,300 in the United States, and 1 in 3,200 in Europe. The figures are nearly 20 percent higher than the earlier estimate of about 500,000 deaths a year.
Well, their research is not Bible-based, so they must be a bunch of stupid idiots (& wicked). lol
I read Dee’s comments and she mentioned “the” Great Tribulation (GT), as found in Mathew 24. The Greek text does not use the definite article “the” for that particular verse in Mathew.
The word “the” does not appear in the NWT or any other translation that I have access to, ie. KJV, New Jerusalem, Gideons, GNT and others, for that particular verse in Mathew.
My thought in mentioning this is, if the definite article is MISSING then we are talking about “a period of time” (of great trouble).
If the definite article is THERE, then we are talking about a specific event in time, something comparable to, say, a surprise attack for example.
Yet secular historians, Toynbee, Churchill, et al, link 1914 as a world changing year. They made no link or reference to the scripture in Math 24, as if 1914 had some significance to world events, so one could reasonably assume they were unbiased in noting that the world changed in a way as never before.
If you look at the Mark ch13 (a tribulation), and Luke ch21 (great necessity) Mark using the indefinite article “a”.
Then, if it is a period of time, and, NOT an event in time, then this changes what most JW’s, and the WTS in particular, keeps saying, that “the” GT comes just before Armageddon.
If you told refugees from Syria for example not to worry, because worse is ahead by way of a warm up to Armageddon, would they believe you? I don’t think so. How could it get worse for a young mum to find her child gassed to death by Sarin, or the iconic picture of a little boy drowned in the sea off Turkey and his grief stricken father. Events in various parts of the world show that we are having turmoil of all kinds, like never before, weather included. Even though some seem to think the GT is all blood and guts, it is not, and it is economics, disease, wars, you name it.
So I am suggesting that the GT began in 1914 and is continuing still to this date.
@enuffsenuff
Thanks for your comment regarding the Great Tribulation.
Please note that I am not endorsing the Great Tribulation (GT) as a future event; I am simply stating what the WT teaches regarding this doctrine – as I recall, the WT teaches that the GT is yet future and coincides with the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13. I should have stated this in my comment above, I’ve now done so.
@enuffsenuff – Your comment…”I am suggesting that the GT began in 1914 and is continuing still to this date”.
In Matthew 24 Jesus likened the period of the conclusion of the system to the days of Noah, when normal everyday living would be happening, as it was then.
According to the Bible, there would not be a wind down or slow collapse to the point of it not functioning. The tribulation (a type such has never occurred before) bought about by God, would be something sudden and very different in which the previous normal living conditions would not exist.
The Great Tribulation started in 66 A.D and ended in the destruction of Jerusalem 70 A.D.
The good news was preached to all the “then known” inhabited earth. Those that heeded the warning got out and stayed out. Those that went back, perished.
End of Story. Where is the authority in any of the Gospels to superimpose any other interpretation?
Amen. The term HarMagedon means Mountain of Megiddo where many decisive battles were fought often involving the nation of Israel. What could have been more decisive for that nation than the destruction of Jerusalem in 70…? And who could have been more Babylonish than the nation that rejected their own messiah…? My take is that the rogue Jewish nation was Babylon the Great and Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 was Armageddon. Many of the things Revelation describes actually did happen during that destruction including the Roman military leaders standing at a distance weeping as the temple burned. They had wanted it saved for their own purposes. The water appearing as blood from the slaughter of people who had fled into the water. And so on…
My thoughts on the Bible is that much cannot be proved. As an example mankind has existed much longer than the Genesis account. The Hebrew scriptures did help identify the appearance of Jesus through genealogy and fulfilled prophecies regarding his birth. I can accept that. In the Greek scriptures Jesus taught the sermon on the mount which was how to live a good, happy, peaceful life. I can accept. It’s been proven that it works. Notice Jesus didn’t get all caught up in doctrine. Simply how to live. Show love, look after orphans and widows and so on.
Forgive my long windedness. Got too much time on my hands at the moment.
@ GEM
“Where is the authority in any of the gospels to superimpose any other interpretation?”
— Well said!!!
The GB are constantly interpreting this & interpreting that. ON WHOSE AUTHORITY??? The holy spirit?? How do they receive all these DETAILED messages? I’ve never seen any special antenna or anything. Do they wear tin-foil hats or something? RFLMAO
Just to add to this already murky discussion of end times prophecies. ….
Russell believed that the 144k was an earthly group, and the Great crowd heavenly. .
Mainly because in context the great crowd is seen before the throne, in the divine habitaion of God (interlinear )and lastly in heaven. Whereas the 144k is only discussed in connection to the Jewish people.
Food for thought.
Maybe there’s an elevator & they can go up & down.
A “spiritual” elevator, of course. LMAO
Beam me up, Scotty!
Did not even cross my mind. & I’m a hardcore Trekkie! lol
Jacob’s ladder (Genesis 28:12) just might be that spiritual elevator!
Yahweh’s sense of justice is all over the place, and far from
perfect.– David survives after sending Uriah to certain death
so that he could bed his wife.
But some poor guy gets his lights put out with rocks just for
collecting wood on the sabbath.–
42 lads are torn to pieces by wild bears for the appalling crime
of calling someone baldy.
People who believe this stuff, (And I was one of them) can easily
accept the genocide of millions, just for failing to carry the
JW card.
I’m certain any court would judge. The punishments far exceed
the crimes.
@Twmack
Your points are well taken. I especially appreciate when Yahweh executed 70,000 innocent Israelites to punish David for taking a census. How’s that punish David? It the innocents that suffer.
WS
We all bought it at some point. It seems to me that, as WT turns people’s minds to mush with all the propaganda & cult stuff, it has a desensitizing effect, so when studying all this crazy bullsh*t, no one sits up in their seat & goes “What the f***???!!!”
We’ve probably all heard of the studies that proved people become more & more desensitized with exposure to violent films. Well, JW’s exposure to all the violence, bloodshed, & insane judicial system of the Old Testament has the same effect, as we can all attest to.