Life is an adventure. The roads taken are sometimes predictable and at other times quite unexpected. If you had asked me one year ago where I saw myself in a year, my answer would not be “The new webmaster for JW Survey”.

Spiro Floropoulos
Spiro Floropoulos


I am excited to introduce myself and let you know a bit about me.

A very brief history

My family background is steeped in Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am a third generation Jehovah’s Witness (ex JW obviously) – so I have a lot of family still inside. As a matter of fact, most are still in the organization.

I have a passion for technology, programming, robotics, video games, science, books, a bit of math and some light philosophy.

Over 15 years of general programming experience gives me the opportunity to help out the Survey team in some pretty cool ways.

I’m a single data with a daughter. I couldn’t be prouder of my family.

How did I get to join the team?

Simply put, watching the videos on the John Cedars channel changed my life.

I reached out to Lloyd because I appreciate his approaches to dismantling the Jehovah’s Witness belief system and reasoning it all out. Lloyd took kindly to my volunteer efforts and let me in a bit.

From there, we simply continued to support each other and build a bit of a relationship, even though we’d never met (and still haven’t).

After a while and a few smaller projects together, he asked me to join the JW survey team, we shook on it (digitally) and that’s that!

Ultimately, I just want to support the team so they can help as many people as possible. There’s no better reward than knowing some action you took today may help someone down the line in ways you can’t possibly know.

What do I get to do?

I’ll be helping all the members of the team with web technologies as much as I can. This will include making upgrades to the website here and possibly future ones to come.

I will also be available to funnel web related issues from you, the wonderful readers; so do give me a shout if there are any issues you think we should address.

Hopefully this will grow and I’ll get to help out with many other technological aspects as well. My strengths aren’t limited to just the web.

In reality, if I’m doing my job right, you should never really know I’m here!

A special shoutout

I want to thank everyone on the JW Survey team for having me on board and being so welcoming. I hope that I can do everyone proud.

[Editor’s note: Have a question, complaint, or a suggestion? Please email us at [email protected].]

156 thoughts on “JW Survey Welcomes New Webmaster

  • December 22, 2018 at 10:39 am
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    I’m happy that you are helping out the JWSurvey team but mostly I’m happy to hear that you and your lovely family have made it out of the cult!

    • January 10, 2019 at 1:31 pm
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      I will second that! and glad you have such a lovely family (fur babies as well as human baby included).

  • December 22, 2018 at 10:51 am
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    welcome .this jw survey really makes a difference to those of us half way out with family trapped inside

  • December 22, 2018 at 11:17 am
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    Welcome! Glad you are on board! I had an Airedale Terrier. Her name was Pumpkin.

  • December 22, 2018 at 11:59 am
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    Greetings to you young man. I escaped myself 14 years ago after 50 years of fear and brain washing and many of us appreciate the work and effort that Lloyd has put in .
    Perhaps you or someone else has any evidence if the WTS has made any significant progress in building new Kingdom Halls in places like Africa after stealing and then selling so many Kingdom Halls through out the western hemisphere ? Because that was the excuse they used in the first place . regards Terence

  • December 22, 2018 at 12:14 pm
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    Welcome to the team we look forward to see this group getting more professional thanks to Lloyd and Mark. A lot of work is being done behind the curtain which is much needed. Once again congratulations Spiro.

  • December 22, 2018 at 4:33 pm
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    Spiro, I am not sure whether your remit includes research but if it does anything you find on WT Vs Darwin interests me. I noted that the WT Society dropped the Creation book. I assume to avoid embarrassment after the latest developments in scientific analysis techniques and the embarrassing debacle of the Creation Museum. I am happy you quit the cult and have a free mind to enjoy life with your family. You have a brave wife to join you. She demands full respect!

  • December 22, 2018 at 5:30 pm
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    Zambia Africa ? My son-in-law worked at the bethel there. When he returned all he asked me is “are you racially prejudiced?” I said no. “Then you have never been to Africa” he said.

    The WT Society put up with theft and abuse just to claim converts. I worked in the asylum homes for Africans preaching and had endless bible studies. It was all a scam to get ‘green cards’ to America. Believe me. Get baptised? What a scam.
    JWs are suckers for 3rd world country converts as it boosts ‘growth figures’ but all the money comes from western ‘believers’ “helping” their poor brothers.

    Its an easy scam.,

  • December 23, 2018 at 9:45 am
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    Thank you for joining this great team. Like you my journey began with great trepidation. Luckily, I found Llody’s site which opened my mind.

  • December 23, 2018 at 5:47 pm
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    Welcome Spiro Webmaster! I’m very happy for you and family! You’re doing a great thing wanting to free others. All the best to you!

  • December 24, 2018 at 4:56 am
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    Wish you well in this vital ministry.

  • December 24, 2018 at 10:55 am
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    Welcome and congratulations on being part of this wonderfull team.

  • December 30, 2018 at 2:05 pm
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    I assert that WT’S interpretation of Matthew 24 : 45 -47 is incorrect but it is instead a parable speaking to the consequences for remaining faithful or becoming unfaithful to ALL members of Christ’s church.

    But suppose WT’S newest interpretation that it brought up in 2013 is correct and I am wrong. In 2013 WT claimed the faithful and discreet slave of that parable didn’t arise until after 1914 if I remember correctly. And pardon my laziness as I am not one to put a lot of time, or anytime, into looking up things I pretty much recall. Now back to my point. WT also claimed in 2013 that the faithful and discreet slave of that parable today consists exclusively of those associated with its governing body. It’s argument was that only those in charge of making final decisions on what goes into WT teachings are that slave. So before it had a governing body the persons that were responsible for that task were Knorr and Franz, before them Rutherford, and before him Russell.

    So here is a point of interest that arose in my head. Words inspired by God spoken by Christ are too important to have written in the finished gospel writings for no reason. Therefore it would not make sense for Christ to warn against hypothetical situations that he and his Father knew would never materialize. e. g. Watch out that a pink elephant doesn’t step on your foot. Though a stupid example it demonstrates my point. So if this secondary assertion of mine is correct about no useless language from Christ being recorded(but if that slave becomes evil), but I am wrong about my first assertion, and WT’S 2013 interpretation of Matthew 24: 45 – 47 is correct then which one or which groups of people who were running WT became the evil slave? According to WT’S interpretation it could not have been Ray Franz because while WT was run by a governing body the whole governing body was said to be the slave not individuals in it. Also according to WT’S interpretation that slave had to be the actual editors of WT. That eliminates those listed in Russell’s will that he wanted to edit WT upon his death since Rutherford usurped their positions, fired them, and had them escorted out of the building.

    No according to WT’S current interpretation of those scriptures the faithful slave that becomes evil HAS TO BE someone or some grouprunning WT. Now if I remember correctlywithout looking this up I believe WT teaches that the words about the slave becoming evil are just hypothetical, something that could happen but didn’t have to happen. What do you think? Hypothetical or not?

    • December 30, 2018 at 7:21 pm
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      @Messenger, your understanding of current WT thought is correct. I, like yourself, some years ago saw that the scripture was simply an illustration telling each Christian to stay awake and do the task of telling others about the good news. The scripture about the evil slave in my opinion aptly describes the treatment I have received from the leadership of the organization: they have beaten me and my once zealous friends and thrown us out.

      Now, as to your question looking at the scripture from the current understanding: who is the evil slave? I could not understand head or tail the explanation the GB gave. It was just nonsense. Why would Jesus be giving just a warning of what might happen? In the illustration of the wheat and the weeds, was Jesus just giving a warning of what might happen? No! So why in this case?

      When the GB brought out their revised understanding of Jesus’ illustrations, I could not understand the illustrations any more. How can the mustard bush illustration go from being the growth of false religion to the exact opposite, the growth of true Christianity? The dragnet illustration now makes no sense. Why, at this time so deep into the time of the end (Armageddon is so close you can taste it- in WT thought) why would Jesus suddenly give a new understanding? The brothers from the past decades and decades understood that the mustard bush illustration was about the growth of false religion. Of what benefit is it to us now to know it is actually about the growth of true Christianity?

      All this nonsense just made me angry. Of course the evil slave will tell us that Jesus wasn’t talking about a real evil slave. That deflects attention away from them: a group of 8 men who know full well how the sheep are suffering under the mental, emotional and sexual abuse of the elders, and they don’t lift a finger to stop it. The elder arrangement is under GB control, implemented by the GB, but because the GB rely on the elders to keep the GB in power, the GB do nothing to reel the attack dogs in.

      • January 2, 2019 at 3:47 pm
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        To messenger and Ricardo,

        Trying to make sense of anything the Watchtower says now in comparison to what was taught and believed years ago is a fools errand. They change their teachings and explanations as often as I change my sox.

        Fred Franz during the late 60’s was giving talks on stage about the importance of 1975 and the end of 6,000 years of mankind’s existence. How timely it would be if Armageddon would come and usher in the new system. But “we’re not saying it will come at that time….” Another example of one foot on the gas and the other on the brakes. Why say anything at all unless you want the sheeple to do more in the ministry, like their very lives depend on it?

        Now here we are, 43 years later, and look at the teachings no longer mentioned or published. Gone are the ‘type and anti-type’ illustrations, each creative day being only 7,000 yeats long, the generation teachings have morphed into a nonsensical ‘overlapping generation’ teaching, etc. The Armageddon “can” has been kicked so far down the road Jesus Christ himself couldn’t find it with the Hubble telescope. Absolutely NO body living today will live to see Armageddon, Barmageddon, Carmageddon or any other geddon, period! It is an illusion, a will of the wisp, at most another sign or symbol in Revelation like the damn stupid beasts that have more interpretations than Planters has peanuts.

        Anyone with any ounce of discernment can see that this organization as well as other Adventist movements are the evil slave and false prophets since the Millerite movement of the mid-19th century. Jehovah’s Witnesses are just the latest reincarnation of this damn foolishness. They glean the fields looking for leftovers following Christendoms trail blazing missionary work centuries beforehand. Jehovah’s Witnesses have managed to find at least 8 million dumb asses and gathered them up to exploit though! Hooray for them. The sheeple are exploited and are too stupid to figure it out. But on they go blindly following the blind.

        The G.B. are so wrapped up in their own self delusional importance that they wouldn’t know the truth if it jumped up and kicked them between their legs. They are, without a doubt, the modern exhibition and personification of the evil slave class and those that follow them are under a pox as well.

        • January 3, 2019 at 12:28 am
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          Hi Big B……what’s happened to the Anglican Church is interesting with a headline from 2018 reading; ‘Church of England staring at oblivion as just 2% of young Britons say they identify with it’. The C.O.E. have been very lenient with undue influence and this is what happens when fear, obligation and guilt are removed as much as possible from the teachings, thereby making a strong case that without fear as a motivator, the church dies. Without fear, we see religion for what it is and we wake up. Anybody who claims they attend church out of love is just not thinking. In the case of WT and plenty of others of course, they try to make sure you’re too scared to think at all.

          • January 3, 2019 at 9:28 am
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            Absolutely correct outandabout.

            The Watchtower is counting on fear,obligation and guilt plus the sheeples inherent laziness on researching to keep them in line. A fine church of disillusionment, sexual deviance and snitches they have managed to create.

            Here we are in a brand new year and most of the Witnesses still haven’t figured out or researched their involvement with the U.N. And this news is almost 20 years old! If ignorance is bliss they must be ecstatic!

            It’s just a matter of time for the Watchtower to start beating their “Armageddon is a commin’” drum again and what date is next on the horizon? How about 2033 the 2,000 anniversary of the death and resurrection of our savior, Jesus Christ? Hot dignity dog! I wonder if they have learned anything from their failed attempts to prove Jesus Christ to be a liar, in that nobody knows the day or the hour but the Father? Nah, they aren’t that bright. Let’s wait and see them announce that New Light and look stupid again as always!

            The Anglican Church is just a reflection of what’s happening to the majority of Christendom’s churches. Namely, science and reason have replaced beliefs of God and religious superstition. Only when calamities, earthquakes and tsunamis, happen do people look to the heavens and fill their places of worship does religion enter into their lives. Crisis over and belief in God goes on the back burner and the churches empty except for the elderly adherents cramming for their finals.

            Only boneheaded fundamentalists and other non reasoning groups of people follow their beliefs to the extreme. This covers the ultra Orthodox Jews and Islamist extremism as well as fringe cult groups like Scientology, snake handling Pentecostals and Adventist movements, looking desperately for a person or event to come, which includes Jehovah’s Witnesses. All of these people will die disappointed, disillusioned, and discouraged be they religious or atheist makes not a tinkers damn. And their mythology will continue to be practiced without them; Ad nauseum. The sun rises, the sun sets just like it always has for millions of year since the beginning of time.

            I wish everyone a happy, safe and prosperous New Year to all and another year Watchtower free!

          • January 3, 2019 at 12:01 pm
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            Luke 21 : 8

          • January 3, 2019 at 6:40 pm
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            Two thousand years and waiting, though, messenger. Meanwhile, Evolution is proven and Noah is thoroughly debunked on many fronts and even Ken Ham has spent 100 million to unwittingly show the impossibility of the Ark. We’re in a transition period where Zeus, Apollo, Ra, etc are being shown the door. Hundreds of Gods down, one to go….we’re very close to the true number.
            Happy New Year, anyway. God bless.

          • January 4, 2019 at 3:40 am
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            You’re possibly waiting outandabout. There are millions of us who are not.

  • January 1, 2019 at 9:41 pm
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    Hello Spiro from us Down under, hope everyone has enjoyed the break & is looking forward to 2019 & more pain for the Borg,

  • January 3, 2019 at 9:19 am
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    Welcome aboard Spiro. Hope goes well.

    This question is for Anthony Morris III. Anthony, do you think these swimsuits are suitable for christian women to wear?

    I am referring to this YouTube video by Brittany Oldehoff, https://youtu.be/W79FWB6eU7I.

  • January 4, 2019 at 6:51 pm
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    The Watchtower 1990 Feb1 p27 paragraphs 19 & 20 say:

    Even now the Catholic Church in the United States is paying millions of dollars in damages to compensate for priests guilty of sexual abuse of children.​—Romans 1:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.

    20 Such wrongdoing cannot be ignored by God’s servants but must be exposed for the benefit of others.

    When God’s servants expose the wrongdoings going on in the Kingdom Halls we get d’fed.

    Is this not hypocrisy?

    Is keeping the child sex abuse law suits and payouts secret any way of exposing wrongdoing? Wrongdoing by the elders?

    Is this not hypocrisy?

  • January 4, 2019 at 7:11 pm
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    A little nugget from the 2018 Annual Service Report: Memorial partakers worldwide have risen by 1,000 compared to last year, now numbering 19,521.

    The current preachers seem very proficient at finding members of the annointed as they go house to house. Now it’s the great crowd bringing in the anointed.

    • January 9, 2019 at 10:08 pm
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      Hi Ricardo

      Where do you find that information now? Since there is no longer a yearbook right?
      How do we see the statistics the stats the WT puts out? I saw somewhere they said A couple hundred had been baptized but they did not say how many had been disfellowshipped. I am sure int the Western world itself there is negative numbers and I bet in USA , N America and Europe. Australia , NZ there are losses in m numbers.

      • January 10, 2019 at 6:54 am
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        @Holy,
        Have a look at jw.org
        Type into the search bar: 2018 Annual Service Report

        All the information is there. A lot of European countries had negative reports, the most serious being Ukraine (-1000) and Poland (-2000). Venezuela was down 1000. These numbers are only peak publishers, because average publisher numbers are no longer given for individual countries. Surprisingly the USA had an increase of 2000, Canada +400, Australia +500, New Zealand +150.

        The good news was Mexico, which seems to have reached saturation point, only added 100. But the main countries showing increase are: Angola (+13,000), Congo (+13,000), Nigeria (+9,000), Zambia (+13,000), Brazil (+11,000) and Colombia (+9,000).

        • January 10, 2019 at 8:31 am
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          Yes Ricardo, just like the Catholic Church, whom they emulate, the Watchtower’s strongholds are in poor countries in South America and Africa. Meanwhile they are losing adherents above the Equator In Europe and North America, including parts of Asia and Australia.

          Could having the internet be one of the possible causes, friends finding information damaging to the Society, along with materialism and greater opportunities for secular or educational advancement? Could that be the reason for the Watchtowers stagnant growth? Or just a vote of “no confidence “ with the friends voting with their feet?

          The 2000 added in America were probably the children raised in the congregation from birth, succumbing to peer pressure from well meaning elders and others.

          Similar to when I was baptized at 17 in January of 1969, there were about 6 of us that took the plunge in our congregation. Many of us went on to vacation pioneer, at 75 hours per month, with some becoming regular pioneers, at 100 hours per month.

          One of my friends attended Bethel and worked for the Watchtower for decades before being released, with no skills, when he married a woman who also was in Bethel. To old to retrain for a lucrative career and very little Social Security to fall back on they both live the lives of mendicants living off the charity of the congregation. Yep, “best life ever”!

          Most of my friends, baptized when I was, have since married are grandparents and have either disassociated or are PIMO. Just attend the Sunday public talk out of habit. Sadly two friends of mine have managed to commit suicide due to a feeling of hopelessness, desperation and depression. With all their eggs in the “Armageddon is a commin’ and Paradise Earth will soon be here” basket have had their hopes dashed with unfulfilled promises. Unfulfilled lives, opportunities of fulfillment robbed by the time bandits of the Watchtower; sadly the greatest theft of all. Yes indeed, “best life ever “.

          • January 13, 2019 at 4:05 am
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            Bib B. Your situation sounds like mine in N California. Many of my friends got baptized also out of pressure and obligation around the same time as you but a few years later in the 1970’s. Most have now left and a few are still in BC that is all they know, most have no skills, the Lucky ones ( sorry we can’t say LUCK. Lol)
            got out some years ago and maybe had a decent job or their own business so they made enough money to have a decent life no thanks tot he WT. Many of my former friends are pretty much broke especially if they spent years at Bethel or in volunteer work somewhere. Some also committed suicide. I think what happens if you are a JW and a creative one is after a while you become so Stressed and expressed when you realize all your talent and skills were wasted on a CULT and you are afraid to leave bc of family and friends and start over again..All the time you are observing others that you knew and had normal lives and education and families and you think to yourself wow, these other people seem more happy than the JW’s and myself but wait…it cant be bc we are the happiest people on earth they tell us all the time. Then you begin to think it is just you nd something is wrong with yourself for feeling that way. Despair leads to depression and depression can lead to even worse. The WT offers absolutely nothing for the young people. NO social life, No clubs, no outdoor activities, no dating, no dancing, no music bands, No genuinely helping others, unless it is WT help, no volunteering, No college, ONLY pioneering and/or Bethel and we all know there is no future OR FUN in that. At least Mormons have a UNIVERSITY and are educated, Dentists, Doctors, professionals, and much more. They play sports, allowed to date, Support Boy Scouts, hiking just things that young people like to do , many other religions do the same thing BUT NOT THE wt. They want your time and all of it and your life. They truly are the religion of NO FFUN.

          • January 13, 2019 at 5:11 am
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            @Holi,
            Consider the way Watchtower ruins people’s lives, be it in the ways you have mentioned or by the mental, emotional and sexual abuse of members. The lack of love, concern and compassion shown is incredible. The ‘true believers’ excuse it by asking what should we expect- it’s an imperfect organization run by imperfect man. So, Witnesses (especially the leadership) can act in unchristian ways and yet it can be excused. What then about the churches which the witnesses feel don’t have the truth? Can’t they also be excused for not having the ‘truth’ because they are imperfect organizations run by imperfect men? I believe some of the churches display more Christian love and compassion to their members than Witnesses do. And don’t ruin members’ lives the way Watchtower does.

          • January 14, 2019 at 6:02 pm
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            WT wants all available time of JWs used in service, as Holy Connoli brought out, because there are not enough Jehovah’s Witnesses to give a thorough witness about Christ to all nations in the amount of time WT claims is left. If WT did not push Witnesses to exert themselves in service it would be admitting at least one of its teachings is false. Either WT could not be the only true church or we are not living during the time directly preceding Armageddon.

            WT’S pace of growth already proves that. Consider these scriptures : 1. The good news has to be preached first (before the end), and 2. I shall speeding it up.
            .
            Ricardo, you previously said you were considering getting reinstatedas as a Jehovah’s Witness. Do you feel WT is the one true religion considering it cannot get the preaching finished world wide in the amount of time it claims is left?

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:07 am
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            I have tried to respond to your question Messenger, in fact a number of your comments, and my answer is not accepted. I try to do it again, and there is a message saying I have made an identical comment (which went into the ether, because it certainly didn’t end up in print). I can repond to other people, but not to you. I have sent an email to the webmaster, but no reply. Maybe it’s the holy spirit interfering with the circuits in the internet, who knows.

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:09 am
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            I will try to leave the @Messenger out of the reply, and see if that works.

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:10 am
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            I don’t think I ever claimed that the Witnesses were the one true religion. But let us pretend that they are, for the sake of conjecture. Then the elephant in the room is as you mention: How does the preaching work get done worldwide by a group who are having great difficulty in keeping their numbers, and who are so focussed on the end coming and their own salvation that they are ignoring the fact that the two most populous nations (India and China) have hardly been preached to? By personally going to see the situation in India last year, I can see why the preaching work is not very successful there: the leadership are very limited in their discernment (in a country where great discernment of others’ beliefs is necessary). The Witnesses are a group who unnecessarily sets themselves apart from others over petty issues such as facial hair (in a culture in which 99.9% of men have facial hair), and I find the brothers there are really unable to adapt to the culture and unable to make their religious practices appealling to a nation full of festivities.

            My difficulty is connected with what a brother once said to me when I was complaining to him about the conduct (bullying) of the Witnesses. He said, “Well, Ricardo, we wouldn’t know the truth if it wasn’t for the Witnesses, so we have to give them credit for examining the Bible in the way they have.” I acknowledge that the Witnesses have a unique set of beliefs, beliefs which I have up to recently made it my life’s mission to propagate and defend, quite successfully. So how to rationalise a group which seems to have a lot of correct understandings (in my opinion) but an unchristian culture of bullying (especially from its leaders)? I cannot match the two. I cannot understand how a group who have such a unique set of beliefs which seem to be correct can at the same time have a culture of behaviour which is unchristian, a culture which has permeated the whole group.. When I have put it to Witnesses in the past who are themselves aware of the unchristian culture, they say, “What do you expect from an imperfect organization run by imperfect men?” But that excuse can be made for all Christian religions. So does it really matter which Christian religion you belong to? I am coming to conclude it doesn’t. Does it matter whether you belong to a Christian group or not? Personally, I find it hard to keep spiritual things focussed just on my own. I feel I need a group. Which group? I don’t know. I am about to start a project of visiting different churches to see what they are like. Because I was brought up as a Witness, I have never been to another church, so I have no idea what they are like. I am trying to reach conclusions as time goes by. One of my d’fed friends listens to King a lot. King is the guy who is anointed (d’fed) but believes the Witnesses are God’s organization but have become an apostate religion, that Jehovah has rejected the GB (the golden calf) but that there are faithful ones in the organization who have God’s blessing, and there will be a future preaching work done by these ones. Maybe he is right, but I can see the unchristian culture in the Witnesses has been there for a long time, since the time Rutherford took over. So I am just observing and waiting and trying to work everything out at the moment.

            And as time goes by, why even in the last year, we have seen some shocking things happening with the Witnesses (the Netherlands branch raided by police, more child abuse court cases lost, continued minimal growth). It seems like the chickens have come home to roost. But I have a love of God, a faith in Jesus and belief in the Bible. So I wait and observe.

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:15 am
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            I don’t think I ever claimed that the Witnesses were the one true religion. But let us pretend that they are, for the sake of conjecture. Then the elephant in the room is as you mention: How does the preaching work get done worldwide by a group who are having great difficulty in keeping their numbers, and who are so focussed on the end coming and their own salvation that they are ignoring the fact that the two most populous nations (India and China) have hardly been preached to?

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:16 am
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            By personally going to see the situation in India last year, I can see why the preaching work is not very successful there: the leadership are very limited in their discernment (in a country where great discernment of others’ beliefs is necessary). The Witnesses are a group who unnecessarily sets themselves apart from others over petty issues such as facial hair (in a culture in which 99.9% of men have facial hair), and I find the brothers there are really unable to adapt to the culture and unable to make their religious practices appealling to a nation full of festivities.

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:18 am
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            My difficulty is connected with what a brother once said to me when I was complaining to him about the conduct (bullying) of the Witnesses. He said, “Well, Ricardo, we wouldn’t know the truth if it wasn’t for the Witnesses, so we have to give them credit for examining the Bible in the way they have.” I acknowledge that the Witnesses have a unique set of beliefs, beliefs which I have up to recently made it my life’s mission to propagate and defend, quite successfully. So how to rationalise a group which seems to have a lot of correct understandings (in my opinion) but an unchristian culture of bullying (especially from its leaders)? I cannot match the two. I cannot understand how a group who have such a unique set of beliefs which seem to be correct can at the same time have a culture of behaviour which is unchristian, a culture which has permeated the whole group..

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:19 am
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            When I have put it to Witnesses in the past who are themselves aware of the unchristian culture, they say, “What do you expect from an imperfect organization run by imperfect men?” But that excuse can be made for all Christian religions. So does it really matter which Christian religion you belong to? I am coming to conclude it doesn’t. Does it matter whether you belong to a Christian group or not? Personally, I find it hard to keep spiritual things focussed just on my own. I feel I need a group. Which group? I don’t know. I am about to start a project of visiting different churches to see what they are like. Because I was brought up as a Witness, I have never been to another church, so I have no idea what they are like. I am trying to reach conclusions as time goes by.

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:22 am
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            And as time goes by, why even in the last year, we have seen some shocking things happening with the Witnesses (the Netherlands branch raided by police, more child abuse court cases lost, continued minimal growth). It seems like the chickens have come home to roost. But I have a love of God, a faith in Jesus and belief in the Bible. So I wait and observe.

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:29 am
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            One of my d’fed friends has faith in King, an anointed (d’fed) brother who believes the Witnesses are God’s organization but have become an apostate religion, that Jehovah has rejected the GB (the golden calf) but that there are faithful ones in the organization who have God’s blessing, and there will be a future preaching work done by these ones. Maybe he is right, but I can see the unchristian culture in the Witnesses has been there for a long time, since the time Rutherford took over. So I am just observing and waiting and trying to work everything out at the moment.

          • January 15, 2019 at 12:31 am
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            I am sorry that I have to answer in little bits like this, but otherwise my comments are not accepted. Who knows why? I would think with the new webmaster things would be different, for the better.

  • January 4, 2019 at 9:21 pm
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    Hi Messenger, I wanted to share what myself and some of my family have thought about Matt. 24:44-45. Perhaps it is a rhetorical question, not really meant to identify a person or group, but rather each individual applying the question to themselves. Jesus made clear the qualifications and it would be up to the individual to decide if they would act in harmony. No actual number or anyone pre-determined but each proving by their actions if they would be such a slave. It certainly doesn’t seem it was meant to identify the group of men today who apply the name only to themselves. It’s an interesting subject for sure.

    Regards

    • January 4, 2019 at 9:24 pm
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      Oops verses 45-47 ; )

    • January 6, 2019 at 7:13 pm
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      Yes I believe that parable, which is sandwiched inbetween other parables all having to do with church members proving faithful or not, was given for the same reason that body of parables was, which was to tell the results of faith and the lack of it. A point of interest is that it does mention that the unfaithful slave beats the sheep. Christ’s statement about the wolves in sheep’s covering carries the same thought. Because of that I have come to believe the apostasy he spoke of has more to do with members of the church usurping Christ’s position by gaining their own followers which they harm and use misdirected scriptures to do so. As he said the thief comes to steal and plunder the sheep.

      I no longer believe the apostasy has much if anything to do with people believing church doctrines like trinity, immortal soul, or hell fire, or being political, and probably has nothing to do with joining the military either. Except that church leaders sometimes used those ideas like hell fire to persuade people to follow them. I think it is the “you must follow me or suffer the consequences ” teaching that was the apostasy. And WT has misdirected the meaning of Matthew 24 : 45 – 47 to teach that idea. More than that they got most of us commenting on this website to believe it. And in different ways they beat all of us. Just to know if you express what you believe to your friends you might be turned in and ostrasized is a beating by the evil slave. Isn’t it when you can admit you still wholeheartedly believe and follow Christ? FOLLOW the slave or else.

      • January 7, 2019 at 11:03 am
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        Messenger, Yes I think you have nailed it.

  • January 8, 2019 at 7:51 pm
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    This comment is primarily to VINCE in response to his recent qoute on another topic page. I only address him here because this is the most current thread, and someone else might wish to chime in. VINCE posed the question that the governing body might be wrong, but WHERE DO WE GO? He posed that along with the thought because of that idea(as if it’s real) it’s better to stay inside the organization.

    Brother Vince, please excuse my language, but I choose it to embellish my point. If you worked for a boss who owned his company, and he put out a written policy statement to all employees that if you ever leave his employment he will give you an ass-whipping, then would you choose to stay with his company? I ask because your governing body has issued such a policy statement to their whole church. Oh you might leave physically without much consequence. But unless you retain your lifestyle as it currently is, and your beliefs about God and scriptural interpretations that you publicly share with others WT will likely hurt you worse than one physical beating.

    Now consider this, because you will have to answer to Christ for what you teach about God and Christ. By what you teach I mean specifically what you teach others God and Christ will do to them in response to behaviors or beliefs they have. Do you believe Christ will kill people forever for believing any one of the following items:
    1. That Christ never had a beginning?
    2. That he is like his Father being equal to him in power?
    3. Christ’s words about the eternal fires of Gehenna literally cause eternal
    torment?
    4. If they don’t believe 1914 has any Biblical significance?

    Do you believe that Christ will kill me for using the slang term ass-whipping considered vulgar by some while I share spiritual points with you? And if you don’t believe he’ll kill me for that why not? I knew the term was slang and could be taken as vulgar. I know Paul wrote we should not use such speech.

    Your governing body had most people who comment on this website believe that if people are following Christ while they interpret some of his words regarding those topics above literally instead of figuratively Christ will kill them forever. Or if they believe the 144,000 Jews in Revelation are really Jews who convert during the Great Tribulation they are not saved.

    Now in your mind which is worse, me writing ass-whipping in this spiritual dialog, or a follower of Christ misinterpreting the rich man and Lazarus parable?

    • January 10, 2019 at 6:38 am
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      @Messenger, I only wish to make a brief but meaningful comment. When I was a Witness in the past and I brought to the attention of the ‘true believers’ the abuse and rubbish happening within the organization, they brushed off my concerns by saying that it’s an imperfect organization run by imperfect men, so what should I expect? But could not this same comment be made to excuse other religious groups who don’t have their doctrine quite right (I mean, don’t have the ‘truth’ to the same extent as the Witnesses? Take the SDAs, for example. The true believers would say that they don’t have the truth. But couldn’t that be excused by saying that their organization is an imperfect organization run by imperfect men?

      If Witnesses can behave in an unchristian way and excuse it, what’s the problem if other Christians believe in an unwitness way?

  • January 9, 2019 at 8:15 pm
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    Hi Spiro and Meagan,

    What a lovely picture of your family! Each year we have gathering of Ex-JWs from around Phoenix during the Christmas season. One of the individuals who usually attends was not able to make it. But at Bethel he worked in the art department. Thus it goes, that many well motivated talented individuals work for the interests of the Watchtower Society. When we leave it doesn’t mean an end of our talent or desire to help others. It is just that we get to be much more authentic in how we expend our energy. Sites like this have without a doubt been very helpful to so many.

    Let’s see…. “I have a passion for technology, programming, robotics, video games, science, books, a bit of math and some light philosophy.” Okay, I have check marks on most of those too, albeit not too much on robotics or video games. But my son-in-law and daughter fill in those.

    I’ve always enjoyed my career as a software engineer but never went past high school. So, in 2014, even though I was closing in on 50 I decided to start taking college courses. I just finished LAT101 (Latin). Next up will be a course in the “HU” (Humanities) area. I’m very much thinking of taking Philosophy 101. My third daughter, Madison, got her degree from St. John’s College, which is a “great books” college that involves a lot of philosophy.

    The world and the cosmos is way bigger than the small world of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The more years you and Meagan are away from it, the more I’m sure that will be the case. That said, there will always be a bit of loss and melancholy for family and friends who remain in the faith. All we can do is try to be there when and if they should start to question the claims.

    Cheers,
    -Randy

    • February 18, 2019 at 11:29 am
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      Randy it’s nice to see you are enjoying your college experience. Having only about a year of high junior college in my 20s, before I was a Witness, I also went back to school when I was 49 to receive my AA, BA, and teaching credential. Before making that move I ran a business, and for most of the twenty years of its existence it worked great.

      Maybe your job supports your family fine, and will provide a decent retirement. I had to start all over at 49. I believe we should tell other JWs and ex-JWs it can be successfully done. For example: In high school I was taught that teachers were among the lowest paid professionals; doctors, engineers, and lawyers were among the highest. At 49 and starting over I made a decision between becoming a public school teacher or a lawyer. I decided on teacher because of my age and the high cost of law school.

      So, I decided on what I was taught is one of the lower paid professions for university educated people. Again, I did that at 49 years of age. Here are the results. I presently work about six and a half hours on the days I do work which is only half the days in a year. I presently get paid $360 a day with a $2000 to $3000 a year pay increase every year. In addition my employer pays medical, dental, and vision insurance premiums for my family, and it also pays into a government pension plan for me allowing me to draw on that retirement plan and social security when I retire in a few years. Thus giving me two retirement incomes that both pass on to my spouse if I die before she does.

      Here’s the point. Even if you didn’t earn monetarily what you could have before, and you are not retired or right against that retirement age you can do something to improve your situation now. If that’s using education try not to accumulate a lot of student debt. Apply for grants, scholarships, and keep your lifestyle low until you get out of school. During much of my schooling I worked on a job that allowed me to do my school homework on the job. It didn’t pay much as a night watchman. But I asked the boss if I could do school work there before I accepted it.

      As a teacher I have seen many people who don’t know their right hand from their left. I don’t ever remember seeing a JW like that. I started over a 49 from nothing. Not because of WT, but because my successful business crashed. There is a possibility you can do better too starting now despite WT.

      Randy I didn’t write this for you as you are most of likely doing okay in your present occupation. I wanted to encourage others to follow your example.

      • March 15, 2019 at 7:35 pm
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        Hi Messenger,

        I’m so glad you posted that. How does the old Chinese proverb go?: The best time to plant a tree was yesterday, the second best time is today.

        My motivations for going to college have a few factors. After leaving the faith I decided that my parenting style had to change. Rather than try to be the wise guru father-knows-best I decided to always think in terms of setting a good example. Thus when my second daughter tired of college just a few credits short of her degree I decided to go to college then. I don’t really need it career wise, but at the same time, I think it helps. Software engineering in a corporate setting involves a fair amount of reading and writing as well as tedious paper work. So taking these college courses is helping with that.

        I am finding Philosophy 101 interesting. Perhaps not as exciting as I thought it would be. This may reflect having run across many of the ideas in various places already. The lesson this week is covering creation stories. So far I’ve read An African Creation Story: Boshongo People, Creation of the World from the Self: From the Upanishads and First two chapters of Genesis. Now I’ll push on to read How the World was Made: Storytelling of the Cherokee.

        But yes, I so much agree… we rightly lament the wasted time and energy we may have put into our JW life. But as long as we have some life ahead, we can push on and reach out for what we may have wanted to do all along. When I couldn’t find a job I did apply to go to college at 18. I felt guilty knowing this path was condemned by the faith. But I so desperately wanted to break into the computer field. When my college application ran into problems I saw it as a sign from Jehovah. Later on I did get working as a computer programmer even though I had no formal education in the field. So… I may be 54, but here I am a college student and eventually I hope to be a college grad!

        Cheers,
        -Randy

        • March 15, 2019 at 11:55 pm
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          Hi Randy. Good to hear from you. Will you tell us what steps you took to eventually hook up with a job as a computer programmer; and what qualifications you needed to land your first job in that field? Thanks in advance. By the way, you are quite a proficient writer, not just grammatically, but also in the way you express your thoughts.

          I am always wishing you the best!

          messenger

  • January 10, 2019 at 6:39 am
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    @Messenger,
    I only wish to make a brief but meaningful comment. When I was a Witness in the past and I brought to the attention of the ‘true believers’ the abuse and rubbish happening within the organization, they brushed off my concerns by saying that it’s an imperfect organization run by imperfect men, so what should I expect? But could not this same comment be made to excuse other religious groups who don’t have their doctrine quite right (I mean, don’t have the ‘truth’ to the same extent as the Witnesses? Take the SDAs, for example. The true believers would say that they don’t have the truth. But couldn’t that be excused by saying that their organization is an imperfect organization run by imperfect men?

    If Witnesses can behave in an unchristian way and excuse it, what’s the problem if other Christians believe in an unwitness way?

  • January 16, 2019 at 8:31 pm
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    I actually went to the mid week meeting last nite, mainly due to keeping my Wife happy & she was a 2minute housholder, they had a part on how we went last year, they were ecstatic over 1.4% increased & stated the work is speeding up!, heres a thought, if more are dropping out then coming in then isnt that a sign that times up & JC should step in now??, complete madness, it would have beed real nice if the Brother actually told us the truth regarding the 2018 figures.

    • January 17, 2019 at 1:16 am
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      Complete madness it is, Whip It,

      God creates a Universe but needs help in writing a bible. So obvious.

    • January 17, 2019 at 10:13 am
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      @Whip It, Yes and the 1% increase in Australia was called a fantastic result. How devastating, that an organization that once had good growth has to keep the pretense up that there is still fantastic growth, and anyone with any sense who disagrees that 1% is fantastic is called negative and becomes marked.

      • January 17, 2019 at 3:46 pm
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        Here’s another increase you could maybe sink your teeth into, Ricardo…… a 2015 Pew Research Centre poll reported that 34-36% of millennials have no religious belief. This figure is in line with a 2013 Harris Poll that found 23% of Americans have forsaken religion altogether. This is a dramatic increase since 2007 when the figure was only 16%. See what happens when people have access to facts?
        We’ve had the wool pulled over our eyes by hypocritical churches who are willing to keep us trapped with lies and altered truth.
        Is it any wonder that a man only just identified in the rigging of Trumps campaign was from Liberty University. Fundamentalists vote Republican and Republicans want the bible taught in schools and the children of Fundamentalists feed Liberty University, but they’re losing and they know it.
        The idea that a magic man made everything belongs in the infancy of our species.

        • January 17, 2019 at 8:05 pm
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          @outandabout,
          I don’t think the loss of religious foundation around the world is something to cheer about, but rather something to be very worried about. Take as an example a whole country which has tried to wipe out its religious traditions: China. The moral condition in China where most people are seeking their own interests is terrible. See this video:https://youtu.be/FfLnFVzfKBs

          No more are they living by the principle: do to others what you want done to you. Now it’s: Get every bit you can for yourself.

          It would be beneficial to read or listen to Prof. Niall Ferguson who wrote the book (and CD) Civilization: The West and the Rest. One of the reasons he sees Western Civilization, especially Europe, engulfed in malaise, is the loss of its Christian foundation.

          As the West continues to reject its Christian heritage, can we expect people’s behaviour to become more civil or more selfish? Perhaps looking at the situation in Portland USA is a suitable case study. Where Millenials have dropped religion, they have taken up other causes with religious fervour, leading to a mob spirit where innocent white men are getting attacked for simply driving down the street.

          This has become the norm in the West now. Virtue signalling has gone wild. Millenials take up issues and treat them with religious fervour, be it same sex marriage for homosexuals, environmental issues, gender fluidity, anti-racism. Perhaps they have rejected traditional religion, but the way they promote their new religion is coming to look just as vicious and violent as the promotors of traditional religions of the past. If a politician doesn’t agree with them they raid his electoral office and trash it (here in Australia). These Millenials on a crusade are willing to break down law and order to get what they want. And this is just the start. Once the stable relationships of the past are smashed (such as marriage and freedom of religion) I worry what will be left.

          But that is what the Bible promise is all about, right? Once conditions become ungodly, when godly conduct is kicked out the door, then God will step in to support those with godly values in their hearts. Like he did in the past.

        • January 17, 2019 at 8:13 pm
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          @outandabout,
          This site is preventing me from answering to you in the way I wish, so I will have to chop my answer into pieces . Sorry about that. I wish I knew why this has been happening lately. But we can only work with what we have.

        • January 17, 2019 at 8:14 pm
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          I don’t think the loss of religious foundation around the world is something to cheer about, but rather something to be very worried about. Take as an example a whole country which has tried to wipe out its religious traditions: China. The moral condition in China where most people are seeking their own interests is terrible. See this video:https://youtu.be/FfLnFVzfKBs

          No more are they living by the principle: do to others what you want done to you. Now it’s: Get every bit you can for yourself.

        • January 17, 2019 at 8:16 pm
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          It would be beneficial to read or listen to Prof. Niall Ferguson who wrote the book (and CD) Civilization: The West and the Rest. One of the reasons he sees Western Civilization, especially Europe, engulfed in malaise, is the loss of its Christian foundation.

          As the West continues to reject its Christian heritage, can we expect people’s behaviour to become more civil or more selfish? Perhaps looking at the situation in Portland USA is a suitable case study. Where Millenials have dropped religion, they have taken up other causes with religious fervour, leading to a mob spirit where innocent white men are getting attacked for simply driving down the street.

        • January 17, 2019 at 8:18 pm
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          It would be beneficial to read or listen to Prof. Niall Ferguson who wrote the book (and cd) Civilization: The West and the Rest. One of the reasons he sees Western Civilization, especially Europe, engulfed in malaise, is the loss of its Christian foundation.

        • January 17, 2019 at 8:19 pm
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          As the West continues to reject its Christian heritage, can we expect people’s behaviour to become more civil or more selfish? Perhaps looking at the situation in Portland USA is a suitable case study. Where Millenials have dropped religion, they have taken up other causes with religious fervour, leading to a mob spirit where innocent white men are getting attacked for simply driving down the street.

        • January 17, 2019 at 8:24 pm
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          Unfortunately, I cannot continue this answer as this site will not allow any further comments I try to make.

    • January 18, 2019 at 8:14 pm
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      My personal opinion that can be proven as absolute fact is that there are many ways to PROVE WT is and always has been an apostate religion, always making the ridiculous claim it TEACHES the Bible accurately. I don’t know if I brought this thought up here. If so I apologize for the redundancy, but here is one of those many ways to prove how far the primary teaching of WT is removed from biblical writings.

      WT has always claimed that the end of this world is imminent. It also claims that per scripture the good news must be preached sufficiently to all the nations before the end. And I have traced in its literature as far back as 1920 that WT has taught it is the only religion preaching God’s good news of salvation. In 1920 it even had the nerve to print if it wasn’t for Charles Taze Russell no one back then would even know God has a plan of salvation.(Ha ha! Just how stupid did WT believe people were, since even a moron reading the gospels could understand the Bible claims God has a plan of salvation ).

      That’s what WT teaches and taught, and this is how those teachings prove it’s apostate. Because based upon WT’S history of about 150 years it is impossible for WT to preach its apostate message it claims is the TRUTH to a significant degree to ALL NATIONS in the amount of time WT claims remains before Armageddon. Considering too that WT claims all adults die during Armageddon that are not JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, and WT doesn’t believe there will be a large influx during the Great Tribulation, it’s obvious that WT either cannot be the only acceptable Christian organization, or its message that the end is imminent is false making it a false prophet. See Luke 21 : 8

  • January 17, 2019 at 8:23 pm
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    As the West continues to reject its Christian heritage, can we expect people’s behaviour to become more civil or more selfish? Perhaps looking at the situation in Portland USA is a suitable case study. Where Millenials have dropped religion, they have taken up other causes with religious fervour, leading to a mob spirit where innocent white men are getting attacked for simply driving down the street.

  • January 18, 2019 at 11:51 am
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    Hi Ricardo. I see you’re still stuck with the notion that we need the bible for moral guidance but this has been shown to be untrue. For example, are you suggesting that Hindu’s have no morals and are busy destroying themselves? What about Japan and it’s Shinto belief? What about Atheists like me? The bible didn’t invent morals; it reiterates them then claims itself as the inventor and the sticking point with you is that you believe the bible is the beginning of Us and you can’t even begin to conceive the thought of anything coming before. Your circle of belief is doing you no favors and I’m reminded of the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye where they were both asked the question; ‘what would it take to change your mind?’ Ken said no amount of evidence could ever change his mind while Bill said he’s willing to, but show me the evidence. All the evidence points away from the Bible and towards Evolution. It’s absolute belief that causes people to fly planes into buildings and you’re part of that, Ricardo.
    We are dismayed when men go back and murder their estranged partners after being rejected by them. But do you see what the man is essentially saying to her when he does that? He’s saying “I love you but if you don’t love me back, then I can’t stand it so I’m going to kill you” So why do we see that guy as a deranged lunatic and a sure sign of evil but when God threatens to do the same thing to humanity we see that as fair and just. Whats going on here? I know the answer, Ricardo, but with your current line of reasoning, you will never see it. Take care.

  • January 18, 2019 at 4:46 pm
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    Hi Ricardo, There was a very strong Christian foundation in the world during the Middle Ages. Would you like to return to burning people at the stake merely for being suspected of not believing in God?
    Absolute belief can fly planes into buildings. You’re under that umbrella. Take care.

    • January 18, 2019 at 9:06 pm
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      I believe Ricardo claimed he is prohibited from furthering the conversation outandabout. But to claim the burning of people at the stake was a Christian response is equal to claiming WT’S message is an accurate Christian response to the biblical command to spread the gospel. If any of us believed that we wouldn’t be commenting on this site. We’d still be on a WT stage teaching the WT flock and preaching WT’S message to you at your door.

      Where in the Bible, and especially in the New Testament, is it written Christ or Jehovah said Christians are to teach ideas (and rules) that they believe are interpretations of scriptures that MIGHT be incorrect, but nevertheless if a hearer does not follow those interpretations they CANNOT be a Christian? You see this is another proof WT is apostate. Because that is what it TEACHES. It admits some of its interpretation are wrong, which is beyond just that those might be wrong. At the same time it TEACHES that to please God everyone must accept it when it is wrong and believe the wrong with the right. That actually is idolatry, putting faith in WT. And the biblical view of apostasy speaks of one having left true biblical writings and accepting errors like the act of burning nonbelievers. The apostate WT demands everyone accept errors when those come from WT. Show me that in scripture and your comment about Christians burning others at the stake has relevance. If you cannot it has no relevance. Rather it follows WT’S ways of biblical understanding.

  • January 18, 2019 at 4:59 pm
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    Ricardo…..we are horrified when a man returns and murders his estranged partner. In doing so he essentially says to the woman; “I love you but if you don’t love me back, I;m going to kill you”. Why is that ‘another sign’ to Christians but when God threatens to do the exact same thing it’s seen as fair and just?
    I know the answer and it fits perfectly.

    • January 18, 2019 at 9:36 pm
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      You miss the point of the scriptures outandabout. Those don’t teach God will kill you if you choose not to live according to his ways. What they teach is that he will not keep you alive. You are presently in that state of not remaining alive. Christians are in a state of remaining.

      It is not something he will take from you. The gospel teaches something he will either give to you or withhold from you. And contrary to WT teachings those who receive it do not wait for it but possess it when they are Christians. See John 3:17

  • January 20, 2019 at 12:05 pm
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    You should have been a politician, messenger, but then again, you may be too honest for that but it looks as though you’re not above lying to yourself, though. If you need to Believe in order to maintain a position you consider essential to yourself, you go right ahead. I think I would do the same.
    The point with scriptures is you that find your own interpretation and considering their supposed importance, that shouldn’t be the case. With thousands of scholars poring over them for 20 centuries and still not reaching a consensus, I think it safe to say they’ve been flogging a dead horse and this is becoming more apparent with each passing day.
    If Noah’s flood was fact, the fossil record would show only one layer containing bones from every living creature including humans all jumbled up together. Thats not the case. What we have is different layers and each of them showing lifeforms more complex than those coming before. Every time there was a mass extinction, some organisms survived and when conditions became favorable again, these existing organisms were in a position to kick start the next step in evolution leading to more complex life-forms.
    Religion does itself no favors by trying to deny this but then again, it’s always done so. It’s had to concede so much over time and continues to do so but manages to do so without actually admitting it.

    • January 21, 2019 at 12:48 pm
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      Outandabout I can understand your skepticism considering that many people lie at the drop of a hat for what they consider gain. But it’s not just scripture that I place my trust in. I place trust that people who wrote those scriptures were not lying, that they had those supernatural experiences, the type that human science cannot explain because it is ignorant about them. Scientists only attempt to explain what they can see.

      Now you can either believe these others, if you develop a reason to. And people continuing to have such experiences in our day, including myself (experiences which have now past for myself ) , or you can continue to believe everything your human senses have discovered miraculously and spontaneously appeared from nothing. While doing that of course you claim the others including myself are lying.

      Accepting your view I see folks attempting to explain what they cannot. That’s why I say you comment on what you do not know. And interpretations of the Bible or what some history of people professing to be Bible scholars has nothing to do with my position. Neither does the truth that people have different interpretations.

      The reason why I have always claimed that you speak about what you don’t know
      is not because of your views on the Bible or religions. It’s because you have no personal experience of supernatural contact. You try to rationalize the experiences of those who have from a position of absolute ignorance, and are understandably a skeptic. Better not to express such strong assertions about things you have no knowledge.

      Putting the supernatural aside you and human science have an opinion about where everything popped out of . The answer of Science is from another universe. Oh, so there’s another universe out there? Except for including who is in it that idea mimics the Bible.

      • January 22, 2019 at 6:52 pm
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        Actually, messenger, I could write a fair bit about supernatural experiences and their causes, if you wish.
        Now about that jumbled layer of bones from the Flood which shouldn’t be too far under the ground given it happened only 4300 yrs ago. It should be able to be reached using a spade. Nobody in recorded history has stumbled upon it. Why not?

        • January 22, 2019 at 7:08 pm
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          I searched for ‘universe in the bible’, messenger, and ended up on Creation Ministries website where they claim scripture exists supporting the bible describing the Earth as a sphere, citing the ancient Hebrew word ‘chug’ as meaning ‘sphere’. They lied. Chug means a flat disc, like a coin. The bible literally says the Earth is flat.
          If I can so easily stumble upon such intellectual dishonestly from Christians trying to keep a dead story afloat, what else is out there?

          • January 24, 2019 at 1:49 am
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            Error, that it’s flat you won’t find there. Speaking figuratively of the four corners representing the four basic directions we relate to from whatever spot on Earth one starts from. In other words those represent the whole surface, just like when an earthly map is drawn, which I am pretty sure that those people used. Flat you cannot find in scripture. If the Earth was flat it would have no water on it since all surface water would eventually spill.

            As far as any real supernatural experiences I doubt you’d be able to find much on those without going to writings of the occult. Anything else that you think speaks to those in all probability doesn’t. You would most likely pull up what some psychologist writes about mental illness. That isn’t the same thing.

            Here’s an interesting story though about that. I took a young woman to a military psychiatrist back in 1973. We were in Spain performing at USA military night clubs. She was a practicing witch and had been raised that way by her mother who was a Hungarian gypsy. Her dad was a Hebrew. She claimed one of her spells she tried to put on someone backfired, and now she would go into trances. I knew her for about 6 months before the problem became evident. Anyway when she came out of the hospital I asked what the psychiatrist told her. She told me he said, “I believe you, but I can’t do anything to help you.” He did give her some medicine. The trances continued. I don’t know for how long as the band broke up after that and we all came back to the States and went our separate ways.The reason I tell you is that psychiatrist believed in the supernatural. At the time, that is before that, when she first said she was a witch I didn’t believe it. Seeing her later in the trances did give me pause. I didn’t know then.

            So, the larger point is most people would be skeptical to the point of not believing because they have not experienced things like that. The only thing to remove all skeptism of such things is personal experience. A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS once told me he rented a cabin in forest once with a couple other male JWs. He said that they went into the kitchen at night and some of the dishes were floating in the air. Hard to believe without seeing it yourself.

            The point I made about revelations from God is that they include evidence they are from God, and that they are not mental delusions. The reason is because he knows we are skeptical if that is not provided.

            The reason you think you know, like I said previously, is because you don’t know. So in ignorance you attempt to rationalize what you think you know about something when in reality you know nothing about it.

        • January 26, 2019 at 2:21 pm
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          With regard to the fossil record. There would be no jumbled bones of species that went extinct before that ark was built along with human bones. But a T Rex on the arch is an interesting idea.

          There is an article that considers the mathematical probabilities in the distribution of amino acids in proteins you should read. If so please don’t try to chop the author down like you did Chuck Missler. This
          author used to be a JW. Also he is and has been a computer programmer. Like you he attempts to prove or convince people about some of the harms caused by Watchtower. He calls his website Borean Pickets Watchtower Examiner. He just uploaded this article on January 25th, and he titles it Does God Exist? He uses the psydonym Meliti Velviti… I can’t remember that exact spelling. Why don’t you check it out and tell us what you think about the facts he presents.

          • January 27, 2019 at 8:40 pm
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            Hi, messenger, Isaiah 40:22 mentions the circle of the Earth. The Hebrew word for ‘circle’ is being bandied about by various Christian groups as meaning ‘sphere’. That is not true. Lying for Jesus used to work before the Internet but it’s embedded and has been going on for centuries. Churches abuse trust.
            I’ve started watching 11/9 and saw a man claiming to be an ordained minister advocating the use of firearms to gain back the power that Christianity is losing in America. What are they gong to do? Shoot the internet? When lying for Jesus doesn’t work anymore, is killing for Jesus the next step?
            You wrote – ‘…..revelations from God is they include evidence from God………he knows we are skeptical. I think you’ll find that sort of stuff has been written after the fact and is Christianity ‘fine tuning’ the brain washing techniques as they steadily close up loopholes in the bible story. Nobody could read back then so a superstitious audience just believed what was told. They had skeptics back then, too.
            I will check out Mr Velviti.

          • January 28, 2019 at 12:54 am
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            I’ve had a spare minute to look at Beroean Pickets and reading what he was asking about the possibility of Creation, I’m reminded of a Blue Planet episode where we were shown hydrocarbons, (the building blocks of life) being ‘spontaneously created’ at the vent of a deep sea volcano. It;s long been thought that life evolved in warm oceans, like in a womb, and here is more compelling evidence of that.
            The ‘theory’ is being proven on multiple fronts.

            He talks about ‘chance’. Okay, lets do that…..the universe that we know so far contains billions galaxies and billions of stars and suns in each galaxy. I’d say the chances of other life creating and supporting planets is quite high but the problem is the enormous distances between them. We may never know.

          • January 28, 2019 at 1:08 am
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            y’know messenger, I suspect you and Mr Pickets are on a parallel journey and both of you unknowingly realize more than you would like to admit to yourselves at this stage.

  • January 21, 2019 at 6:55 pm
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    I’m not denying your supernatural experience, messenger, but there are things you need to consider; is it likely an Eskimo will have a vision of the Virgin Mary? Is a Buddhist likely to receive a message from the Muslim prophet? Is it likely that a Head Hunter from the hills of New Guinea will start speaking in tongues? They wouldn’t because they don’t believe or expect any of these things. My wife witnesses people taking their last breath nearly every single working day and before a new patient is admitted to the room where a person has just died, the room must be removed of ‘forces’ by the appropriate person. That persons hair will stand on end upon entering that room because they believe in spirits whereas my wife feels nothing because she’s a non-believer.
    So, messenger, I don’t have supernatural experiences because I don’t believe in them. Millions of people lived and died believing in ancient Greek gods, but now those gods don’t exist anymore simply because people stopped believing in them. Thats all it takes to banish gods, sin, feelings of unworthiness, being told we are born sick and commanded to get well, punishment and reward, fear, obligation, guilt.
    If you trust the writings of the bible just because they’re there, whats to stop you from accepting the Egyptian descriptions of Ra; inscribed in rock and unaltered for thousands of years? No mis- translation. Because you don’t believe in Ra, right?
    Meanwhile in Jerusalem, a Jew will ask a wall for answers while out in the field and looking at an eroded cliff, a Geologist will find proper answers staring him right in the face.

    • January 22, 2019 at 7:30 am
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      Watchtower has a hard time understanding fully the copyright laws in the United States. Especially when it comes to the “Fair Use” clause.

      To educate Watchtower, please email them at the following email address: [email protected]

      • January 26, 2019 at 11:07 am
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        Watchtower cannot be educated.

  • January 23, 2019 at 6:18 am
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    Thanks for all your hard work. You guys are doing a great job.

  • January 26, 2019 at 2:10 pm
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    Γιασου σπιρο μεγαλη χαρα να δουμε εναν ελληναν εδω,

  • January 27, 2019 at 9:25 pm
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    messenger…..don’t take this the wrong way…..in Jerusalem , there is a special ward in the mental hospital for those who represent a danger to themselves and others. These patients are the sufferers of ‘Jerusalem syndrome’. Police and security officials are trained to spot them. They have come to the city to announce themselves as the Messiah or to proclaim the end of days.
    Is it possible that a Head Hunter from New Guinea or an Eskimo or a Hindu would ever do this. They wouldn’t because they don’t believe or have ever heard of Jesus. An interview of these deluded patients in Jerusalem should reveal more than one common thread. One of those threads would be Absolute Belief.
    Have you noticed that religion combines maximum servility with maximum solipsism – a message of continual submission, gratitude and fear. We are miserable and guilty sinners. Life itself is a poor thing: an interval in which to prepare for something better.
    And then it teaches us to be extremely self- centered and conceited by assuring them that God cares for them individually and the cosmos was created with them specifically in mind.
    Some people go crazy trying to circle this.
    Floating plates? If a person coming off heroin can literally see insects crawling and moving under their skin, does that prove the power of the mind? If a witch doctor points the bone at a villager and that villager dies purely because he thinks he will, does that show anything? My wife sees people take their last breath nearly every working day. Before the next patient is allowed into the room where someone has just died, the room must be cleansed of spirits by the appropriate person. Upon entering that room, why does the hair on the ‘cleanser’ stand up while my wife feels nothing?
    We choose what we believe.

  • January 28, 2019 at 7:24 am
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    Remember Watchtower, Vladimir Lenin stated the following, “A lie told often enough becomes the truth.”

  • February 1, 2019 at 12:41 pm
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    Since WT teaches everyone else not a JW is an apostate it’s fair to consider whether WT is. My assertion is there are many ways to prove that true. Here is one quickie. Scriptures teach those not believing in Christ and especially if they teach others he is not what he claimed he was are antichrist. If God only reveals his message through WT oversight surely Jehovah’s Witnesses would know who the Bible claims Christ was and is.

    Consider just one thing he said, “As the Father has life within himself I have life within myself.” And if my memory is correct he stated that with reference to him resurrecting people. Does WT accept that? No! WT teaches Christ used holy Spirit from the Father when he resurrected people, which diminishes in the minds of their followers who Christ is.

    Everyone knows Jesus existed. The antichrists do not accept who he really is, which includes his power and authority. He had life within his self to raise people when he was here. He didn’t say he would receive it, or had it and would get it back. He said he had it. And he said it was just like the Father has it. Which though speculation that statement also implies the thought he always had it and used that in creation.

    • February 4, 2019 at 1:42 am
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      you’re a legend, messenger. I’m wondering how you manage the bible’s demand for maximum servility with maximum solipsism. How do you learn to think so lowly of yourself and yet know the whole universe and everything in it was created specifically with you in mind?

      • February 8, 2019 at 11:52 am
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        Outandabout in your weak arguments against God’s existence you focus on points that have nothing to do with that point. Your first focus is evolution. Now tie that into your denial of God if you can. But you cannot. Those are different ideas. So you use it as a smoke screen, a slight of hand manipulation of the cones. In other words a dishonest ploy. Or, are you fooled by your own inability to see that those are different ideas? Watchtower used that same trick on us when it taught us all other religions teach some of the scriptures incorrectly, so that makes them apostate. While WT admits it does the same. Your idea like WT’s is a puff of smoke in the readers eye.

        Your second focus, which is also a smoke screen, is demonstrated in your comment above. And that is on people. Also irrelevant to your argument about why you don’t believe in God.

        Now if you just stated, “I don’t believe the people who say God contacted them” then you would be fully honest and showing you have not deceived yourself with illogical arguments.

        If you ever start to tell us where scientists believe that singularity came from you might be on your way to preaching scripture.

        • February 8, 2019 at 10:17 pm
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          but where did god come from, messenger? Same diff. All we can do is look at the available evidence for both arguments. We’ve come a long way since man first deduced that seeing as the sky is blue like water, there must be water up there and the stars are where the rain comes through. That’s laughable know.
          Once, god gazed down on the earth from up in the clouds, then he got moved by religion to another galaxy, now he’s been chased even further by science and reason to a theoretical parallel universe. Just keep moving those goal posts to keep it alive but, it’s God versus Google and it doesn’t look good for him.
          Cheers.

          • February 8, 2019 at 10:22 pm
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            and I’ve always believed you when you say you’ve been contacted by god, messenger.

          • February 9, 2019 at 12:01 am
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            Well then you probably know that Stephen Hawking and other scientists believe that ALL the laws of physics break down at the point of a singularity. And they believe the singularity that became the universe came out of another universe.

            The Bible does not state God is in the sky or out in space and limited to living in this universe as you stated. It reads he lives outside it in another universe made up of additional dimensions. The existence of such a place is the same idea scientists are now accepting with their super string theory and other speculations.

            You claim you only accept what you know scientists can measure. Yet that limited thinking is not what scientists believe. They believe in things they cannot measure, e. g. ALL laws of physics broken down, other dimensions and other universes. Those ideas which scientists accept have been accepted by many religions for thousands of years.

            The people in religions claim to believe those things not because of mathematical calculations scientists have made and speculated on, but because they claim life forms came out of those dimensions and contacted some people in their populations.

            You say you believe God contacted me, but that’s impossible if you don’t believe in God. A more likely belief of yours is that I had some experience that can be explained biologically that is in sync with the natural laws of physics. What you don’t consider is that if Hawking and other scientists are correct about a condition in which the laws of physics break down, and if they are correct about other universes and dimensions, then a possibility exists that life forms exist in those dimensions that might be able to live in our dimensions also, and that the laws of physics might at times break down at times and places outside the appearance of a singularity.

            What I claim is what many other people have claimed. Part of it is that I saw a future in such detail the revelation was beyond the possibility of coincidence. And also that while awake I saw something that defied the laws of physics. Based on your writing it doesn’t seem you believe that actually happened.

  • February 4, 2019 at 9:13 pm
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    I have noted that this coming June/July WT study articles are addressing Child Abuse, a complete white wash of what has really happened, check it out

    • February 7, 2019 at 5:22 am
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      @Whip It, I hope that there are several highly publicized cases going through the courts when these articles are being studied, so as to make a mockery of them. I think Jehovah could arrange that.

  • February 7, 2019 at 5:43 pm
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    I certainly won’t be in the Audience, the average JDub is so dumb

    • February 9, 2019 at 8:03 am
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      @Whip It, When an honest man discovers he is being deceived he either stops being deceived or stops being honest.

  • February 9, 2019 at 8:59 am
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    Muhammad on his flying steed transported to heaven
    to talk with god and Abraham. Elijah taken up to heaven
    by fiery horses and chariot. Which is the winner? or are
    they both non starters?

    • February 9, 2019 at 2:40 pm
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      They were both millennium ahead of scientists, whose perceptions of what is, such as time travel and additional dimensions is just starting to catch up with theirs.

      By comparing the two religious men and asking in jest which one was correct your comment reveals the condition of quite a few frequent commenters on this Site. The relationship idiom once bitten twice shy fits. But rather than further the conversation focusing on relationships let’s focus on what scientists know. Today many of them believe they know heaven exists. Though they don’t call it that. But the place they believe in is still the same. The given name is irrelevant to its existence. Also they believe in time travel. Their waking up to those realities harmonizes with scriptures that the heavens declare the existence of God and though they (some people) perceived him in creation they would not recognize him. Both men you mention recognized him because they claimed to experience something from that place scientists are just beginning to discover. It’s your choice to mock them and others who have had similar experiences or believe because of people who have. Both those men claimed that is why you are here, to make that choice. And I agree with them. I believe we are here to make that choice or to believe.

      • February 10, 2019 at 11:12 pm
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        messenger…..I believe you believe you were contacted by god but I believe your encounter was because of absolute belief, wish-thinking, confirmation bias and coincidence.
        Would the Virgin ever appear before a Headhunter or a Hindu? Not likely, but they are sure to see their own gods. Does a dog dream of fields strewn with bones and an ant a sugar bowl the size of Texas.
        The insects a heroin addict sees crawling under their skin is invisible to everyone except the addict.
        The villager dies after the bone pointing because he believes he will and not because of any power the witchdoctor has.
        In Jerusalem there’s a special ward in the mental hospital for whats known as Jerusalem syndrome. Police and security officials are trained to spot them. They have come to announce themselves as the messiah or to proclaim last days. I’m not at all suggesting you’re crazy but you’re not alone.

        • February 11, 2019 at 2:47 am
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          You are just repeating what I already said when I claimed you don’t believe, which is what you previously asserted.

          It’s not my calling to convince you. You are here to make that choice so that those who make a different choice will understand future events, specifically the reason those events will happen.

          • February 11, 2019 at 4:27 pm
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            I’m pretty sure you’ve previously intimated you consider it your duty to inform people of your beliefs, messenger. If you don’t, you’re not considered a true believer and so you’re stuck on that point but this is what your belief system does to you all the way through. It sets an impossible task which actually tears at the fabric of some peoples sanity- maximum servility with maximum solipsism. “I’m a miserable sinner prostate before an angry god, hang on, no I’m not, I’m the center of everything”. Born sick and commanded to get well. How’s that coming along?
            This business by various desperado’s to align God with scientific thought while at the same time poo poo-ing science as irrelevant and wrong is nonsense, messenger.
            Keep it simple just like the story itself or you’ll lose your audience because they won’t keep up.
            Google is moving at light speed while God is forever on a chariot and that’s the way they like it…… predictable, safe, secure.
            Or…..you could realize the overwhelming evidence for evolution and join those churches who agree and realize their best shot is to get aboard and hope for the best. Ride that gravy train to the bitter end.

          • February 11, 2019 at 4:56 pm
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            If God is omni-everything messenger, what would he need time travel for?
            If God created everything why did he need help to write a book?
            Notice Islam’s obsession and prohibition on everything to do with sex as if sex is a hideous act but then promises an eternity of debauchery if you ‘do as you are told’. Such a joke.
            They use our most base instincts against us and Christianity is no better and in fact, both used to have drinks together and boast about how many infidels they’d killed that day. They have the same root and would have died out in the first century after Jesus failed to return as promised but the preachers had built a cushy lifestyle while Mr average lived in third world conditions and so they started Lying for Jesus and have continued to do so.

          • February 11, 2019 at 6:55 pm
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            Outandabout you tell me to keep it simple? Your Way of keeping it simple contributes to flaws in your reasoning.

            Over and over again I see this type of illogical conclusion from you: “I saw a duck cross the road, therefore everything that crosses the road is a duck. ” Where are the penguins?

  • February 10, 2019 at 5:48 pm
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    Has anyone done research on the “Anunnaki’s” very interesting

  • February 10, 2019 at 10:59 pm
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    messenger…..true, I don’t believe in gods of any description but I believe you believe you were contacted by god. I also believe your encounter was based on absolute belief, wish-thinking and coincidence but true in your mind nevertheless.
    Is it likely the Virgin would appear before a Headhunter, an Eskimo or a Hindu. Would Krishna talk to a JW. The answer is no because they don’t believe but, they are likely to see their own gods and nobody else’s.
    The insects a heroin addicts sees and feels crawling under their skin are invisible to everyone except the addict.
    A villager dies after having the bone pointed at them purely because he believes he will and not because the Witchdoctor has any power.
    In Jerusalem, there is a special ward in the mental hospital for sufferers of a condition known as Jerusalem syndrome. Police and security officials are trained to spot them. They have come to the city to declare themselves as the messiah or to proclaim last days. I’m not for a minute suggesting you’re crazy, but you’re not alone.

  • February 11, 2019 at 6:36 pm
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    Outandabout, this site has rules against teaching an atheistic evolutionary theory or spreading the gospel. While it enforces the latter it does not enforce its prohibition against spreading an atheistic evolutionary religious doctrine. Just one of the reasons I don’t school you on your errors. And those are many.

    Your assertions about God and religion are mostly opinions. Yet they are of value to the reader because they reveal your motivations. I believe we are here to understand the motivations of people who reject God as well as those who accept him.

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