Do Jehovah’s Witnesses genuinely care about the general well-being of ordinary people beyond the confines of their religion? Such a question might sound strange to some, but after taking a closer look into their interaction with the public it becomes not only reasonable, but necessary.
If you posed the question to a Jehovah’s Witness at your doorstep you’d likely get a lengthy monologue describing his or her organization as the most “loving” on the earth.
But do Witnesses really care about people outside of their bubble? A recent troubling development in Rio Rancho, New Mexico, brings that question into sharp focus.
Jim Mura’s life plans were tragically altered when he suffered a traumatic brain injury in a freak ocean swimming accident. Suddenly, his lifestyle was one where simple communication and movement was extremely difficult. His wife, Janet, became his caretaker.
The two of them had reason for concern when their local congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses decided to build a kingdom hall next door.
You see, one of the few joys in Jim’s life is gazing at the Sandia Mountains, a view of which is afforded to him by his dining room window. But having learned that the new kingdom hall would obstruct this view, the couple decided to confront the Jehovah’s Witnesses with their concerns.
They received verbal assurance that the hall would be built so that Jim’s view would not be blocked.
Once the concrete was poured, Jim and Janet were shocked to find out that the kingdom hall was being situated in a position that would indeed block his view of the mountains.
Again they confronted the Witnesses and discovered that the decision had been made in spite of their agreement.
If the Witnesses had upheld their agreement with the Mura’s and complied with their wishes, the parking lot for the kingdom hall would lose the space for three vehicles. These few parking spaces were thus deemed more important than the needs of a severely disabled neighbor.
As a group that professes to be the only true Christians, shouldn’t Watchtower’s love for their literal neighbors be of paramount concern? Should it not supersede any material or strategic gain?
I was a member for over two decades, and will always remember a common mantra: “let your yes mean yes, and your no mean no.” (James 5:12) I recall this concept being drilled into my mind from a young age. So, it’s astonishing for me to witness an entire congregation’s refusal to uphold such a simple agreement with a person in need, namely that he could continue to have access to an attribute that directly influenced the purchase of his property.
Tragically, the law sits on the sidelines on this one. Morally, what’s happening is loathsome, but the Watchtower is breaking no actual laws. All that can be done is to protest peacefully against this moral travesty as it unfolds, and raise awareness.
If you would care to show your support for Jim and his wife, please visit their official Facebook page: Save Jim’s View.
Even with the concrete poured, I imagine there are still creative ways to grant Mr Mura his wishes. Hopefully, Watchtower will have a change of heart and allow his current quality of life to be uninterrupted. Only time will tell.
Further reading…
Hi Anonymous, Other Bible translations also use the name, Jehovah, though not as much as JW’s; also some Bible commentaries also use the name – so to be fair then, if JW’s have got this wrong, then so has everyone else. I agree with you, we should not be called Jehovah’s Witnesses – this was one of Rutherford’s “ideas” and is not scriptural. In fact Jesus early followers were called Christians and believers in Christ should be called that today. With regard to telling brothers and sisters the truth about the Organisation – I believe this is an area where we should tread carefully or else we may find that we do more harm than good. Whatever religious organisation a person belongs to whether it be JW’s, Roman Catholics etc. – God can always bless individuals and we know that he does.
That’s because you are not man enough to follow your own guidelines. Just like the WTS and GP. When they are under attack, the best solutions are blocking people and shunning. Now you can go to fix your own stupidity!
Btw Cedars, one last question for you: when your daughter grow up, what are you gonna do if she decide to joint the jw? You may say she won’t be stupid enought to want to do it, but what if she wants to join them?
Since my daughter will not be indoctrinated from the moment she can talk like most Jehovah’s Witnesses, there is about as much chance of her joining the Klu Klux Klan when she’s older. But even in the unlikely event that this were to happen, her mother and I would never shun her.
Now, off you go. I’m sure your dear leaders, the Governing Body, have some important errands for you to run.
A word of warning, Norman seems to be another poster with the know-how to circumvent our spam filter. If he’s going to such lengths to post here, goodness knows what his agenda is. His comments will be deleted as soon as we spot them, but you should all know he’s not your average poster.
@ Norman
You are trying to be slick and use technicalities to frame this website as worthless and manipulated.
Here are the facts you cannot deny.
1. Watchtower is a multi billion dollar corporation that thousands derive income and all their living expenses from.
2. As a huge corporation the Watchtower like any other large company will first seek to defend itself by trying to first prove its position. When that fails, they will as always seek to undermine the position of others who have exposed their lies, by attacking their credibility.
3. That being said, you have done nothing to provide proof against all the evidence presented here, instead you have tried to manipulate everyone to focus on perceived flaws of Cedars away from your beloved corporation/religion.
4. You cannot answer simple questions. Yet you try to mask your lack of evidence by a veil of reciting rules that you have not up to this point followed.
5. YOU ARE CORRECT, you are not a jerk, rather you are a fool. A fool that is being manipulated by WT. Or worse yet you are a WT manipulator masquerading as a fool, so as to look innocent and concerned. Either way you are terrible at whatever you are trying to achieve. Quite frankly you are a punchline to a bad joke. An evil manipulative Watchtower Joke that, as always attacks others and any perceived flaws while hiding the truth about itself which, when exposed, is not a funny irony like most jokes, but an insidious mind destroying lie.
6. As for your insinuation about privacy and email. The fact is that email addresses are private by their nature, as they reveal nothing about the individual that is considered by law private, such as social security numbers, date of birth, address or telephone numbers. You obviously knew that because you did not threaten a lawsuit, rather insinuated that Cedars was unfair because no laws were violated.
7. All of which leads me to the conclusion that you are a JW manipulator masquerading as a fool. Or to state it more accurately, a JW manipulator fool, masquerading as a non JW fool. Now that is truly funny, LOL, I love good irony!
@ anonymous
I am going to buy the concordance. Thank you for the information. I would love to be able to show that to my family.
@ Cedars
I know you are probably super tired with your little one. What do you think about publishing an article about what anonymous wrote. Once verified, that probably is one of the most damning statements ever made against JWs.
@ Norman
You are trying to be slick and use technicalities to frame this website as worthless and manipulated.
Here are the facts you cannot deny.
1. Watchtower is a multi billion dollar corporation that thousands derive income and all their living expenses from.
2. As a huge corporation the Watchtower like any other large company will first seek to defend itself by trying to first prove its position. When that fails, they will as always seek to undermine the position of others who have exposed their lies, by attacking their credibility.
3. That being said, you have done nothing to provide proof against all the evidence presented here, instead you have tried to manipulate everyone to focus on perceived flaws of Cedars away from your beloved corporation/religion.
4. You cannot answer simple questions. Yet you try to mask your lack of evidence by a veil of reciting rules that you have not up to this point followed.
5. YOU ARE CORRECT, you are not a jerk, rather you are a fool. A fool that is being manipulated by WT. Or worse yet you are a WT manipulator masquerading as a fool, so as to look innocent and concerned. Either way you are terrible at whatever you are trying to achieve. Quite frankly you are a punchline to a bad joke. An evil manipulative Watchtower Joke that, as always attacks others and any perceived flaws while hiding the truth about itself which, when exposed, is not a funny irony like most jokes, but an insidious mind destroying lie.
6. As for your insinuation about privacy and email. The fact is that email addresses are private by their nature, as they reveal nothing about the individual that is considered by law private, such as social security numbers, date of birth, address or telephone numbers. You obviously knew that because you did not threaten a lawsuit, rather insinuated that Cedars was unfair because no laws were violated.
7. All of which leads me to the conclusion that you are a JW manipulator masquerading as a fool. Or to state it more accurately, a JW manipulator fool, masquerading as a non JW fool. Now that is truly funny, LOL, a fool pretending to be a fool, I love good irony!
It maybe worthwhile to give Norman enough rope to post.
Norman, whether Cedars is an apostate or not is not relevant. I’ve not been placed in a position to judge. If your opinion is that Cedars is an apostate, thereby condemned by God, why are you speaking to him? If you want to defend the society & present the ‘other side of the argument’ in a factual & constructive way, well & good. I just don’t think that it is appropriate to use a person’s children to make personal points. Cheers
Thanks gary. I see your point and I do try to give apologists as much rope as I can reasonably allow to show how preposterous their position is. The only reason I have a threshold is because I put a lot of work into this site and the last thing I want is for our articles to be vandalized with reams and reams of ad hominem vitriol, convoluted nonsensical arguments and personal attacks, which is what inevitably ensues when you give trolls like Norman the platform they crave.
At the end of the day Norman, whether you like it or not, it is the Society who force’s people to become apostates. The Society does not listen, even if what the person is saying is truthful & scriptural. That is why so many people have become disillusioned & left, not because they are wicked, but because they had no voice. They lost faith in an organisation that has a big mouth and small ears where there is no debate. An authoritative spiritual bully is what it is.
No Jehovah’s witness can deny that the governing body has enforced what is false on its members. That is why apostate have been created.
Watchtower Society.
Just as James said ‘you have murdered the righteous, he was not opposing you was he’?
@scrubmaster. I admire your astuteness, and also I like the way how you work with Biblical examples; I really like to shake your hand.
As regards GB, I am convinced they know that it’s a hopeless venture for them to fight against leaking informations. They certainly know they are tilting at windmills. Sadly, they are not able to come down off their high horses.
The other day, I found something on the internet, a letter dated January 4, 2007, from JW in Germany addressed to all Presiding Overseers, including the secret order to send all congregational documents which have something to do with cases of child abuse or suspicions for a “confidential destruction”. Even it was from the German branch, I’m sure the real sender was GB. They can’t do anything in secret anymore. They claimed in that letter that Jehovah had told them to do so. But they are easy to be caught in their own speech. If Jehovah had really given such an order, of course he would have held his protecting hand over it so it could never be of public access. They offend God so much, it hurts me so. For their wicked purposes, just like letting body of evidence secretly disappear from the eyes of the courts, they say God has sent them, and that is the worst thing, and the better I understand what it really means that God’s name must be sanctified (Matthew 6:9).
Kind greetings from Europe, and keep on posting your good and well-thought comments here on this site.
Hi Jannai.
You are right when it comes to trying to tell somebody the truth about the Watchtower lies. You can’t just do it. The reason we cannot do it is because the Watchtower has tied our hands and put tape around our mouths with the threat of disfellowshipping if we say anything to anybody and that is even to our closest friends and family. Once we convince somebody else how the Society has been telling lies all these years then they now have the hot potato in their hands and have to either keep quiet and feel like a hypocrite about going to meetings or out in service and putting money in the contribution boxes, or they can dissociate themselves or fade and that is a terrible situation to be put into. What we’d really like to hear is for somebody to come forward to prove that Jesus chose the Organization in 1918 as his real and true spokesman but nobody can do it. We like to think we haven’t wasted our life on lies. We would like to once again support the Organization but we need some kind of proof. The people who put us in that situation is the Watchtower Society with not owning up to their true history and covering it up with outright lies. If they owned up to the true history, they’d have to admit that God did not chose this organization as his true organization in 1918 and so therefore they do not have the right to tell us what to do and not to do because God never picked them to be the Faithful and Discreet slave after all and the whole religion is built upon a house of cards. It’s only a matter of time, before more and more people get brave enough to start looking at the real history and hopefully will come to realize the deception but the only thing most of us can do right now when we come to that realization, is to stop putting money in the contribution boxes. Some will be forced to go in service because of the terrible situation they have been placed in but as for me, I won’t put in another dime into the contribution box till the Society starts owning up to their real history and I also am not attending the district assembly this summer and I can’t in good conscience go in service any more. Any organization that tells lies is not the Truth. I am not an apostate to the truth but I am an apostate to the lies. I want the truth.
As far as other Bibles using the name Jehovah, that is also true. That doesn’t make it okay to do it though if you know the real meaning of the word in the Jewish language. The real question is, is it okay with God? What makes it more important for us, is that it is the name of our religion. Other religions don’t call themselves, Jehovah’s Witnesses like we do so God would be the most offended by us if we do it, knowing it is actually a description of Satan, not the almighty creator. That’s only my opinion.
The Watchtower Society is a bit like a person who causes a road traffic accident shrugs their shoulders and says ‘oh well must have been God’s will’. They take no responsibility. The eye witnesses who report what they saw are called lairs.
Crashes that include… Not being appointed over all belongings though enforcing it, 1975,1925, inoculations, organ transplants, the generation, blood fractions, Bulgarian government, oral sex & divorce, tubal ligation, NGO status, 1935 & the heavenly cessation, 1874, 1914, aluminium, next they’ll be telling me the last days began with a Russian spaceship!
@ gary, lol, love the great logic followed by a bit of humor.
The antitypical Korah? Simple. The same group of men who teach a false parousia while sitting down in the temple of the God & who looks down on every other form of religion. Rebellious sons.
And of course if i don’t believe the above things I posted and preach about it I’m the apostate!
Do really expect us to take you seriously Watchtower?
Kingdom of God yes/ nonsense no.
Yes?
@ Cedars
Was he banned again?
Oh he’s banned alright, but he’s switching IPs. I’ll keep an eye on him and hopefully he’ll get tired of trolling us and find a more productive use of his time. Besides, I’m sure he has field service to be thinking about. That cult propaganda in his ministry bag isn’t going to place itself y’know.
Norman Bateman, you said
“Diplicated comment detected!!!”
It’s not just you, there is some problem on this site. I’ve tried to report it, but to no avail. I can’t log in, and I have to copy all my posts in case it gets rejected as a duplicate comment.
It’s happened to me several times, especially lately.
I just start a new comment, paste, and change a word or two at the beginning and keep trying until it posts.
I thought maybe it was some setting on my pc that was causing it, but it seems to be happening to others. Is any body else having trouble logging in and posting comments?
Norman, sometimes it’s not about YOU.
Anonymous, The reason why I believe we should tread carefully with regard to telling brothers and sisters the truth about the Organisation is because the shock for finding this out, for some people, can be enormous and the effects devastating. That is not to say that I wouldn’t tell somebody if they wanted to know. I suppose at the end of the day we have to ask ourselves, why do we want to tell people. It’s much easier to make a decision when we know our true motives but that for any of us can take some serious soul searching. The other point too is that many JW’s have been so indoctrinated to believe that the Society can do no wrong and you just wouldn’t get through anyway – it would be like someone trying to tell you that the earth was flat. I take comfort from knowing that God cares about individuals who are doing their best to serve Him faithfully no matter what religion they are.
With regard to the name Jehovah – I must admit that I am a bit out of my depth here and you appear to have more knowledge about this than I do and naturally it’s something that concerns you.
Jannai,
I respect your belief in God. You believe that God will put things right. Maybe he will. But what if he doesn’t?
I sympathise with your point, but I don’t share it. I believe that only the truth can set people free, and no one should have to live in bondage to a false religion, regardless of the consequences.
Remember Jesus’ parable about the house built on sand? That is what every JW is like. It is not a kindness to say, “oh, they’ve built their house on sand. It will be a nightmare to take it down and move it, I won’t tell them to spare them pain” and then a flood comes and sweeps the house away.
Rather we need to find a way to retain the faith in God, whilst slowly extricating them from a corrupt organisation.
Normon/what will…
Using the posting guidelines to avoid answering my questions then? Smart move! You know you have no credible answers to my questions.
If you want to avoid posting off topic (how very noble of you) then why not reply to them on the Jonathan Rose article? No posting violations there!
You go to the effort to change your IP address to continue posting here. Why? What do you hope to accomplish? You have only proved to me yet again that the WTBTS is a corrupt and moribund organisation with no credible beliefs.
So you claim no ownership of the offensive email address? Ok, I can’t prove it was you. Do you think it’s right to choose such an offensive and provocative email address to post here?
Why don’t you move on? Follow the advice of your fellow apologists to is and stop being obsessed with us. There are plenty of projects in the WTBTS that could use your time and effort. You could join the crack team appealing the Comti case, as you know so much about it.
You could help compile the list of predatory paedophiles that the Bethel offices keep throughout the world.
You could write inflammatory articles about shunning relatives for the study edition of the Watchtower, that contradict the secret Elders’ manual.
The list goes on.
I look forward to you using a new IP address and a new email/name to answer my questions on the Jonathan Rose article.
You do realise that you are on the losing side here, right? You do understand that society will not tolerate your religion’s interpretation of the two witness rule as regards child abuse? It just won’t, Norman. Those days are over.
I won’t answer anymore of your off point deflection points. So I’ll leave you with some advice.
Think about what you are doing. Do not dehumanise the victims of child abuse and domestic abuse in your religion. They are human beings just like you and I. They deserve to be treated with respect and to live in peace.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Sorry folks, for Comti read Conti, sorry Candace, no offence was meant. Also, it should read, “follow the advice given to us”. Damn iPad!
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Hi Jannai.
I know what you are saying about not telling people who aren’t ready to hear it. When people have been told all their life that they will not die and you come along and say “sorry but it’s all a lie” will devastate them. That is the last thing I want to do. But not to know the truth is to have them waste the one and only life they have been given when they could be having some fun with their life and not wasting it going from door to door, preaching lies to people is also cruel. I can’t do that to them either. Yes, people have to be ready for the real truth and I don’t want to be the one to tell them. It’s up to the liars to tell them. If they have any conscience in them at all, the Society (liars) will come forth with the Truth and not put the rest of us in that position. Since the Society stands behind their lies, I would say they have no conscience. According to the Bible, God hates them for what they are doing. They are blood guilty for all the lives they are ruining. All we can hope for is that more and more people do get brave enough to the internet and see some youtube videos or maybe a site like this one and begin to question whether or not they really do have the Truth or not and stop funding them. I for one, am not the sort of person who when somebody tells me “don’t ever take any of their literature” will take it because I am not one to be told that I can’t examine my religion to see whether or not it is the Truth or not. There is a good reason the Society wants us to always go by two’s in the ministry. One of them is that if we come across somebody who offers us one of their tracts, we can’t take it if we are with somebody else at the door. If we were by ourselves, we could take it and look at it. Years ago already, I saw how hypocritical that was to not take one of their tracts when we were asking them to take ours and if I was at the door by myself I would take it and offer to go over it with them but if I was with another witness, I’d have to refuse it. Of course then I didn’t realize it was a cult tactic to keep us in the dark. Now I see it for how evil it really is.
anonymous,
The reason Witnesses go in twos is not only to stop them accepting “apostate” literature. Part of it is safety, which I fully endorse, and the other is that it was how the early Christians did it.
Freedom is anxiety. You will have to wrestle with this, as you must with other moral dilemmas. I wish you well with your choice. You are clearly a decent person, and I am sure that you will find a way forward.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Here are two trees. One life one death. YOU decide which one you choose. God did not not dictate their decision, they were free to use their conscience. If the Society enforces a dictate (whether truthful or false) then by so doing they over rule personal conscience & a God given freedom. Shunning is a matter of conscience.
I was having the same issue myself but I sent in an email and the problem was resolved.
Had I lived next door to this chap (& he sounds like a good lad:-) ) I would of said,
‘Listen mate let’s swap land you & your missus enjoy the view x’ if you can’t then no worries we’ll make sure you’ve got what you need. Bollocks to building regulations.
If a person asks you to walk a mile walk two. If they ask you for your undergarment give them your coat. If they ask you not to spoil their view. . .
Hi Excelsior.
I am not saying it’s not safer by two’s. Right now, it is just hard for me to think that anything from the Society is for our good but evil intentions behind it but yes, not every single thing that the Society says to do is bad. My congregation had an elderly sister who had gone to the door by herself beaten to a pulp by a crazy person several years ago and now our elders are paranoid about not going alone. Just going by two’s though still doesn’t make it safe if a person comes to the door with a gun. I had that happen to me years ago.
As many of you by now know, this site is being persistently trolled by a Watchtower apologist by the name of Norman Bateman. Norman was recently called out after some ridiculous argumentation in defense of a fellow troll who was also banned. He is now utilizing an impressive portfolio of tricks, including switching IP addresses, to continue to post after he has been banned.
Norman, I need you to know that I can keep this up as long as you like. You make a post, I delete it. You make another post, I delete that. Etc, etc. I will not have this website vandalized by your narrow-minded cult-defending vitriol.
If you are so desperate to be “unbanned” as it were, I do offer you a challenge.
You are hereby challenged to a Skype video debate, the motion of which will be “Jehovah’s Witnesses are God’s earthly organization.” You will defend the motion, and I will counter it, ON CAMERA. There will be 7 minutes each for opening statements, two series of 4-minute rebuttals, and 3-minute closing arguments for each of us.
Once the debate is published to YouTube, unedited and unabridged, I will create a special survey, post it on my channel, and you can also share a link to the survey with as many of your JW friends as you like.
The survey will run for 7 days following the debate, and whoever gets the most votes wins. If you win, I will let you post again on JWsurvey.
Now, I’m afraid I can’t be any fairer than that. However, something tells me your bark is worse than your bite, and that you will skulk off into the shadows rather than share a YouTube video with an apostate and thus risk a spanking by your elders.
But if you accept, by all means email me.
Norman responded but could not accept the challenge as it was proposed, so I will consider the challenge declined.
For the record, I officially withdraw my challenge to Norman. Judging by the comments he’s tried making over the last 48 hours (which we’re now finally managing to block) he’s just as mentally-unhinged as Skally. I don’t debate with crazy people, there is nothing to be gained. Too bad.
“Norman! Norman…put me in my chair!” (Governing Body Member)
“Yes, Brother.”
There’s one for you horror buffs!!!!
Nice challenge, Mr Cedars! I like your style.
I really hope this Gentleman does accept the challenge. It will be fair, open and honest. It will be an education for the poor unfortunate. If he has any kind of human decency, he may even be won over.
But I doubt it.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Norman, if you can prove that Jesus chose the Watchtower as his one and only true religion in 1918, I really want to hear it.
That’s a fair challenge Cedars. That’s a fair challenge to any intelligent Jehovah’s witness. Let’s have that debate let’s be fair and reasonable. If a JW does not want his identity revealed then i can understand & appreciate that but please JW’s let’s not begin with personal judgements. I’m up for it, :-) looking forward to it:-)
Sorry to be boring, but back to the original topic.
Scenario:
Knock, knock.
Good morning, Mr. Mura, nice to find you at home. We realise that you don’t get out much and your life at present is pretty rough, but have you ever wondered what the future holds out for you?
Silence …. then blah, blah …. you could live on a wonderful paradise earth, where just imagine, you could continue to have kind, loving, considerate neighbours just like us FOREVER!!
Aaargh!
This issue, however insignificant to some, is another little nail in Watchtowers unholy coffin!
Some of you will have noticed two unwelcome visitors yesterday.
One was Skally, a crazy maniac who has returned to further her personal and inexplicable vendetta against me. For some reason she finds it meaningful and pleasurable to obsess over the accounts of masturbation and porn in my personal story and extrapolate wild theories based on these, including hints at child molestation. She also insists that because I was once an elder I MUST have been involved in intimately interrogating young women, even though in my one-year stint I was never once involved in a judicial committee (something I’m very grateful of).
Not content with stalking me with all this nonsense, she also seems hell bent on telling everyone my real name and about my profession as a translator. None of these things I am remotely ashamed of. The only reason I continue to operate under a pseudonym is because my translation work is what puts food on my table, and by using my real name with nutcases like Skally roaming the web there is every possibility, albeit remote, that our business income could be threatened.
Since I am extremely protective of my family, including the welfare of my newborn, I would rather keep the status quo with my pseudonym. There is nothing underhanded about this at all. It is simply a case of mitigating a potential threat to my family’s livelihood by keeping my activism work and my day-to-day income-generating work as separate as possible.
But of course the likes of Skally have so little going on in their own lives that stirring up controversy in the lives of others is not only a pleasure but a necessity.
As to Norman’s lukewarm response to my challenge, he seems to overlook the fact that he can be just as involved as me in mustering up votes for his performance in any potential debate between us. If he is unashamed of showing his face and sharing a YouTube video with a self-avowed apostate, then he should have few qualms about emailing round his JW friends and asking them to watch and vote.
One thing that is non-negotiable, as explained above, is the use of my pseudonym. He doesn’t NEED to know my real name (even though by now he probably does) nor does anyone else watching the debate, but I need my real name in order to continue to put bread on the table, especially with a new baby in our family. This is nothing to do with shame or deceit. This is purely about being sensible, practical, and recognizing the contentious nature of my activism work and its potential to impact on my livelihood.
It is equally non-negotiable that this site should be shut down if he wins the debate. Why? Because a consensus in an argument does not confirm validity thereof. In the unlikely event that he can cajole a majority of viewers to vote for him, this wouldn’t make his arguments more plausible. It would just mean he can find more supporters for his views, which is no difficult thing when you have a pool of 8 million unquestioning followers to canvas.
So the challenge stays on the table as is. If Norman accepts my challenge and does a video debate with me, and wins the debate, I will let him continue posting. This is not so much about whose arguments are more valid, this is more to do with who has the guts to subject their opinions to serious debate and scrutiny. Norman strikes me as someone who is more interested in sniping this website in homage to his spiritual overlords than the latter.
John,
I was saddened to read of your recent woes. I do not know your real name and I do not need or care to know it. I know you as John Cedars, a fine and decent man who is trying to help people. I salute you and honour you and I hope that your livelihood does not suffer as a result of these recent attacks.
Skally has a lot of issues with men, it seems to me. I pity her and I would urge her to go seek professional psychological help. We don’t know her circumstances, but it is entirely possible that she has been badly wounded and scarred emotionally and mentally by the WTBTS. I wish you peace, Skally, I really do.
Please, folks, respect Mr Cedar’s wishes as to his identity. It is not done out of any nefarious need. He has been brave enough to tell us about some pretty personal things that he was suffering from in the past. I respect him for that. He didn’t need to do it.
Skally, please don’t harm the employment chances of Mr Cedars. Please understand that he is not like the ones who hurt you. He is a good man.
I’m truly sorry that you have suffered so, Mr Cedars.
Peace be with you and your lovely family
Excelsior!
Cedars, just tell us how we can help you.
From now on, you are Cedars to me. Period.
It is a dodgy situation, and I suppose to be expected that you would become the target of someone mentally unbalanced.
I completely agree that the safety of you and your family come first.
Like I said, you only have to let us know what we can do to help you.
Your sister
Hi imacountrygirl
I do appreciate the concern, but please don’t worry about me or my family. We all have this completely under control. I take our security very seriously, and I am very fortunate that the likes of Skally are instantly recognized as mentally-unstable lunatics not just on this site but on others where she is also banned.
The truth is I could probably get away with using my real name, but I continue under my pseudonym just as a precaution. In any case, I’ve grown rather fond of it!
There have been various leaks of my name here and there, and if people find the pursuit of this sort of fixation productive this is their problem, but for the most part the Ex-JW community is supportive of my privacy – even if they don’t agree with me on everything.
There certainly isn’t any threat or danger that would make me consider giving up my activism or scaling down. I consider this my long-term career now, something I can point to and be proud of when I am old. I’ll step away from it when the time is right for me, and I feel I’ve made a lasting contribution I can be proud of. There’s no way I’m going to let a handful of crazy people divert me from it.
It is only my opinion, but I think the debate should be called off. I don’t really believe one is necessary anyway, not for us your readers. What will you do if a majority of us request that the debate be called off due to your reader’s request?
Does anybody else feel this way?
I agree with you Imacountrygirl….this forum is good enough place for a debate. If a person can not answer questions directly in a forum, Why would they answer them in a video debate? It makes no sense to me. When Jesus was tempted by the Devil the ultimate, Apostate did he say lets do a video debate(I know Cedar you made that offer :-), nope…LOL (Jesus did not at every question nor at any point reminded Satan how he was going to be destroyed forever)! However when Satan did use and twist scripture Jesus simply replied and corrected the false thinking until Satan went away. So my take on it is this, if a person truly wants to debate, why not do it in a civilized manner and respond to peoples questions here with out all of the name calling and disrespect. Remember in that account Jesus did not call Satan names nor did Satan for that matter call Jesus names. So my challenge to them is instead of name calling and saying what is being said here is false…prove it in a calm and respectful manner…that is all Cedar is asking.
Well the debate isn’t on, as of now, because Norman hasn’t accepted it as it was proposed.
I personally think it would be worthwhile if it went ahead. It would be good for the YouTube community to stare a narrow-minded indoctrinated supporter of cult propaganda in the face and see his arguments eviscerated one by one. I would personally thrill at the chance to make an example of him.
But I made the challenge sort of knowing that he would decline it because Watchtower apologists are, by their very nature, cowards. Sniping, nit-picking and hit-and-run attacks is all they know.
Sitting down to a debate in which their ignorance is picked apart point-by-point is not something they are either familiar or comfortable with. After all, they known deep down that their beliefs don’t hold up to serious scrutiny even though they barrel on with their cult-supporting rhetoric regardless.
But I will continue in my search for an apologist who is naive enough to take me on despite all this.
John Cedars,
I like your pseudonym too. It reminds me of the mighty cedar trees of biblical renown.
I don’t think we should hold our breaths about finding someone on the apologist side to openly debate on YouTube. It is not their MO.
I called out that Norman creep on the Jonathan Rose thread. He has no chance of winning a debate because, unless you are an indoctrinated Witness, NO ONE supports the WTBTS’ child protection policy.
I am truly grateful for your moral stance and the hard work you and others carry out, John.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Norman won’t take part in a debate because he is listening to the counsel of the Watchtower when Watchtower tells the Witnesses it’s below their dignity to engage in debates. It’s an easy way out for them because they don’t have a defense and unfortunately the Witnesses take that as truth.
The real apostates are those who spread myths as truths (e.g slave class, 1914). People who seeks truth and justice are not apostates. Time will prove this point. I am sorry for the lifes that are damaged in the meantime.
Cedars, I really don’t like to bother you, for I know you have a lot to do, and your work is very beneficial and necessary indeed.
However, I am confused that you placed the remark “Your comment is awaiting moderation” at my above comment. Now what do you mean with that? Do you want me to alter the comment? Do you yourself want to alter it? In what way? What is wrong with it?
I said acknowleding words to another member of this community.
I mentioned something that I found about JW in the internet, informations which are accessible to everyone. I thought you might be interested in that discovery.
The words in which I speak about GB is the same tone that most of community members are using here, including yourself.
What is wrong with it?
If you find fault with it, why don’t you simply do away with it?
But please do not leave it marked.