conflict
Youths required to enforce Jehovah’s Witness Doctrine – it’s a conflict which leaves them confused and cross-eyed

Theocratic Warfare has long been a controversial aspect of Watchtower theology. Often dressed up in with euphemisms and wordplay to try to downplay the teaching, the doctrine of theocratic Warfare essentially comes down to this:

It is considered acceptable to lie to non-Witnesses if the end result will benefit the Watchtower organization, or protect it from any perceived harm.

Up until recently, this practice of giving Witnesses a “license to lie” has mostly been confined to courtroom battles. A recent and rather infamous example of this took place during the Australian Royal Commission, where Watchtower’s Senior Australian Branch member Terrence O’Brien was caught red-handed lying about the role of Governing Body Member Geoffrey Jackson in order to protect Jackson from having to testify.

However, it seems that this practice is seeping more and more into regular Witness life. In fact, one speech outline for the upcoming 2017 Circuit Assembly appears to directly encourage Witnesses to lie to the general public about Watchtower’s teachings on homosexuality.

A Tale of Two Demonstrations

The full line of 2017 Circuit Assembly talk outlines have been leaked, and are available on the excellent website www.avoidjw.org under the tab  “2016 Regional Convention.” There is a treasure trove of talks there to comment upon, but the one we are discussing here is the outline for talk#9 of the first one-day assembly for 2017 entitled Young Ones: Prove that Jehovah Is Your Best Friend. The talk starts off by instructing JW youths to show their love for Jehovah by following Watchtower’s vast multitude of behavioral dictates to the letter, and then moves on to informing them that another way to show love for God is by standing up for “His righteous standards” when they are called into question.

We then see a demonstration of how this is done.

It’s actually two demos, both based around the same situation: A Witness youth named Hannah is explaining Watchtower’s stance on homosexuality to a non-Witness, Emily. The first demo is supposed to be an example of what not to do, the second is the “correct” way of handling the situation.

Hannah’s behavior in the first demo is pretty awful.

Yet her behavior in the second one is even worse.

Version 1: The intolerant Witness

The first demonstration is pretty short.

Emily: I think it’s so cool that Ashley and Jessica have come out as being Lesbian, don’t you?

Hannah: (Grimaces) Actually, I think they’re disgusting.

Emily:Wow, Hannah that sounds so prejudiced. Is that you talking or just your religion?

Hannah: (Abruptly) It’s what the Bible says, Emily. Lesbians ARE disgusting.

Emily: (Sarcastic) Whatever.

So, Hannah is not especially tactful here, but essentially she has described Watchtower doctrine as regards the LBGTQ community accurately. If anyone is in any doubt, just check out the words of Anthony Morris III, a member of Watchtower’s Governing Body and a person Witnesses are required to obey without question.

And to prove that ATM III is not just some crazy weirdo who doesn’t represent Watchtower teaching as a whole, check out Paul Grundy’s extensive article on JWFacts.com, which goes into extensive detail as to how Watchtower have spoken about the issue of LBGTQ rights. In one point, Grundy gives us the following, hard hitting list.

Watchtower describes homosexuality as:

  • abhorrent, sexually degrading, unnatural, sordid – Watchtower 2012 Mar 15 p.31

  • an unnatural sexual perversion – Awake! 1997 Dec 8 pp.14-15

  • sick and perverted – Awake! 1995 Feb 8 p.16

  • gruesome, violent, and downright sadistic.” Awake! 1995 Feb 22 p.14

  • disgraceful sexual appetites, obscene – True Peace p.150

  • worthy of the death penalty – Awake! 1982 Jun 22 p.10

  • perverted desires – Awake! 1989 Jul 8 p.27

  • detestable to Jehovah, vile, repulsive – Watchtower 1979 Mar 15 pp.10,11

So no wonder that Hannah, a Witness raised in such an environment, would react with angry, abusive dismissal to news of two other women embracing their true sexual identity.

However, the narrator of the drama cuts in at this point and asks:

Could Hannah have done a better job of expressing God’s standards, doing so in a way that made them clearer and more appealing to Emily? Let’s give her another chance.

Clearer? I think Hannah was perfectly clear, given what we know of Watchtower’s teachings on the subject. More appealing? Well…given that Emily appears to believe that a person’s sexuality is not a subject for scorn or hate, it might be difficult to make Watchtower’s message on the subject more appealing without diluting the clarity.

Unless…

Wait.

Hannah isn’t going to lie, is she?

Yes she is.

She is going to lie though her teeth.

Version 2: The intolerant Witness who lies about it

Emily: I think it’s so cool that Ashley and Jessica have come out as being Lesbian, don’t you?

Hannah: (Calmly) Well, I respect Ashley and Jessica but I can’t say I approve of what they’re doing.

Emily:Wow, Hannah that sounds so prejudiced. Is that you talking or just your religion?

Hannah: It’s my view Emily, but it’s based on the Bible. You know, some people think that the Bible says things about how homosexuals should be treated that aren’t actually in there.

Emily: What do you mean?

Hannah: For example, the Bible says that we should respect ALL people, regardless of their sexual preference.

Wait WHAT?

Where?

Where does it say that, Hannah?

Where does the Bible explicitly say that we should respect all peoples, regardless of their sexual preference? Show me the scripture, Hannah. I’ll wait…

…okay you’ve not found one. That’s because it doesn’t exist. And you KNOW it doesn’t exist. However, I CAN show you scriptures in the Bible explicitly stating that homosexuals should be killed. For the sake of fairness, I’ll even use the Witnesses’ own New World Translation of the Bible, as found on their own website, JW.Org.

Leviticus 18:22 “‘You must not lie down with a male in the same way that you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable act.”

Leviticus 20: 13 “‘If a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing.They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them.”

The above two verses form part of the law code for ancient Israel. The law here is very clear: Homosexuals get killed. No if’s. No buts. Gays die.

It doesn’t get much better after Christ turns up either. While Jesus himself never broaches the subject, the Apostle Paul has no hesitation in commenting on the subject:

1st Corinthians 6: 9-10   “Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom?  Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.”

According to Watchtower’s theology, not inheriting God’s kingdom means that God will exterminate you at the battle of Armageddon. In other words, as far as Hannah understands it, Paul here is saying that gays again deserve to die, although Christians are commanded to leave the killing to God and his heavenly armies. And if you’re in any doubt as to whether Paul’s overall stance on gays had softened since the days of ancient Israel, here he is discussing past events in Jewish history that came before the arrival of Christ, and the “fulfillment and lifting of the Mosaic law”, as Watchtower teaches it.

Romans 1:26 – 27: ” That is why God gave them over to uncontrolled sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error.”

 

Now, the point of this is not to get into an extended debate as to how these verses should be applied to Judaism and Christianity as practiced today. The point is simply that these verses exist, and for Hannah to deny they exist, whilst claiming existence for a mythical, unseen scripture that teaches respect for all sexual orientations is simply outright, barefaced, calculated deceit.

Yet Hannah is only just warming up with her “tactical truth camouflage.” The demo continues.

Emily: But I thought you were prejudiced against gays and lesbians.

Hannah: Not at all-I reject homosexual conduct, not people.

Another barefaced lie.

 

Jehovah's Witness youths are encouraged to lie and misrepresent their intolerance for gay persons
Jehovah’s Witness youths are encouraged to lie and misrepresent their intolerance for gay persons

 

As a Jehovah’s Witness, Hannah is absolutely required to reject homosexual people. If one of her Witness friends or family came out as an active homosexual, Hannah would be required to shun them as if they were dead. That’s a pretty big rejection. More to the point, even if she met a homosexual who was not a baptized Jehovah’s Witness, she would be expected to refrain from any close association with them. If she made the non-JW lesbian a social friend, or even someone she spent more than the minimum possible time required with, she would soon find herself in the back room of the Kingdom Hall being lectured by stern faced elders.

Hannah knows this. Hannah is lying.

Emily: I don’t get it

Hannah: Well… (pauses) I also choose not to smoke. In fact, I find the thought of it sickening. But suppose you were a smoker. I wouldn’t be prejudiced against you for your view, just as your wouldn’t be prejudiced against me for my view, right?

That’s a really bad analogy. Firstly, there is the whole issue of smoking being something you do, whereas sexual identity being something you are, a part of your biology that you are born with. A better analogy would be to compare sexuality to skin color.

Emily: I don’t get it

Hannah: Well… (pauses) I also choose not to have brown skin. In fact, I find the thought of brown skin sickening. But suppose you had brown skin. I wouldn’t be prejudiced against you for your view, just as your wouldn’t be prejudiced against me for my view, right?

Notice how the whole analogy comes collapsing down both logically and morally when presented in that manner.

Also, there is the fact that Hannah would indeed be prejudiced against the smoker. As a Jehovah’s Witness Hannah is required to shun any smoking Witnesses as if they were dead. Smoking is just as bad as homosexuality in the Watchtower’s view.

Yet we are not quite finished. Hannah has one more lie in her, and it’s a whopper.

Emily: I guess so

Hannah: It’s the same with out differing views of homosexuality. Everybody has the right to choose. Based on what I’ve learned from the Bible, I’ve made a lifestyle choice to reject homosexuality, and I appreciate those who respect my right to make that choice.

Hannah believes everyone has the right to chose. Except that if a fellow Witnesses choose something different to her, she will punish them with shunning. That’s like saying: “I totally respect your right to choose whether you cross this bridge or not. By the way, if you cross it, I’m going to shoot you in the head. But you totally have the right to cross that bridge.” To say nothing of the fact that Hannah believes all practicing homosexuals deserve to die, and will be killed at Armageddon by the likes of Anthony Morris, acting under orders from Jehovah.

In other words, Hannah does not believe everyone has the right to choose. You choose her way, or you choose to be worm food.

Additionally Hannah appreciates those who respect her choice to reject homosexuality, but she will not extend that same respect in return. If a fellow Witness decides to live in harmony with their same-sex orientation, Hannah will shun them as if they were dead. But she thinks it’s only civil for her own intolerance to be treated with kid gloves and not called out for what it is.

The demo ends with Emily saying:

Emily: I never thought about it that way.

That’s because Hannah has used a mixture of lies and doublespeak to bamboozle you, Emily. In the first demo, when Hannah told you what her religion really teaches, you were furious.

Basically what comes out in this version of the demo is nothing but a cavalcade of bare faced lies designed to mislead the non-Witness into thinking that Watchtower Policy towards the LBGTQ community is far more tolerant and accepting than it actually is.

Is Watchtower feeling the pressure?

This isn’t the first time Watchtower has blatantly lied to try and make its teachings on homosexuality more acceptable to the general public. The recent “Harness your Habits” issue of the Awake magazine contained an article that employed similar tactics, such as comparing homosexuality to smoking, and trying to pretend that the Bible does not contain scriptures commanding the killing and mistreatment of homosexuals. For a full analysis of this article see the video below by JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans.

 

So what are we to make of this?

Well, it’s clear that these articles and demonstrations are a response to increasing critical scrutiny from more liberal nations and cultures as to what religions are actually teaching in this regard. Clearly, a number of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (perhaps especially Witness youths, whose schoolmates will increasingly be showing strong support for LBGTQ rights) have been getting into awkward, difficult situations when confronted on this issue and are not sure how to deal with it. Hence this demonstration to help them out of the sticky situation…not by making a stand for what they really believe the Bible to teach, but by misleading and lying to the questioner to leave them with a positive and false impression of those teachings.

I also think that Watchtower might be searching for ways to make its policies feel more humane to its own members. I’m in my 30’s, and I personally knew a number of Witnesses in my generation who struggled to reconcile the teachings on homosexuality with their own more liberal impulses and the real life positive experiences they’d had with gay people in the workplace and in other aspects of life. Thus, this might also be a campaign aimed at my generation of Witnesses and younger; trying to spin the teachings so that a generation increasingly aware that homosexuals are just normal people might be able to reconcile their cognitive dissonance.

Either way, the result is ironic: A talk that commands youths to make a firm stand for Jehovah’s standards…by lying about them and pretending that they’re softer and kinder than Watchtower teaches they actually are!

Theocratic Warfare at its finest.

Update: YouTube Activist JWAwake has also covered this issue, and along with his analysis as included footage of this demonstration actually being given at a Watchtower Assembly.

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192 thoughts on “Upcoming 2017 JW Assembly Encourages Witness Youths to Lie About Homosexuality

  • October 8, 2016 at 7:37 pm
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    I wonder why and how the GB came up with the name; Hannah. Most male’s I have known perfectly understand that the expression: (Hannah and her 4 sisters) refers to the act of masterbation.
    The brothers back at Bethel must be getting a chuckle out of this demo.

    • October 9, 2016 at 3:19 pm
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      Never heard that Hannah stood for masterbation. Thanks for the info.

    • March 3, 2017 at 6:41 am
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      Hannah doesn’t mean masturbation, you’re clearly wrong.

      Entry for Strong’s #2605
      חָנָן
      Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Definition

      Canan or Hanan = “he is merciful”

  • October 8, 2016 at 7:53 pm
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    The more liberal nations are where their biggest donators live. They lose traction there and the money flow stops. A chicken or goat from Africa won’t keep the lights on. The foolishness of this demo can’t be overemphasize. As is the idea watchtower has in its head that they can actually control how things will turn out for these young JWs.

    The kids in school aren’t going to follow watchtowers script. So when things inevitability go sideways for the jw youth his/her cognitive dissonance will multiply exponentially. They set up their own people for failure with these stupid demos. The organization wants so much to control the outcome of things that they are willing to throw any average witness under the bus. Even their youths.

    The JWorg doesn’t see any other choice. “Tell them what to say and how to say so they don’t mess up our sales pitch!” They don’t want to lose their young people but they’re fighting a losing battle. Fighting the information age using tactics rooted in the 1800’s and even further back us a fool’s errand.

    • October 8, 2016 at 8:02 pm
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      A fools errand indeed !

  • October 8, 2016 at 10:18 pm
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    Thanks for this great article and the links provided..

    I find it funny over this never ending ability they have to continually argue the fact that it is a choice to be day. When i fact it is the way they are born, my sister is gay and has been with her partner for years, from her growing up she was always the tom boy attitude and that was fine. I know others who are gay and it isn’t a choice they made and yet to be likened to those who smoke is a hypocritical view by the GB. Lately the more stuff that comes out of the WT is getting worse only for themselves.

  • October 8, 2016 at 10:29 pm
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    I am curious on this topic so I want to ask, what moral direction would any of you give to your children then? Is morality open ended, no rules, do whatever you want, have multiple sex partners, one sex partner, a same sex partner, multiple sex partners? What book, writings, beliefs, would you use to back up those convictions and would those convictions be backed up by a belief in a God?

    • October 9, 2016 at 1:01 am
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      Speaking for myself, my moral direction is to help others wherever possible, not hurt anyone if I can at all help it, and do whatever I can to advance humanity. This is certainly not a “do whatever you want” approach. It is a “do what helps others” approach. If what I want to do would not be helpful to others, and may even hurt them, I will try not to do it.

      As far as homosexuality is concerned, how are two men (or two women) who love each other harming others by being in a relationship? How does that hurt you, me, or them? On the contrary, it could do a lot of harm if you were to convince them that their attraction to one another was somehow abnormal, that they should suppress their feelings and even seek out mates of the opposite gender who they are not sexually attracted to. Would you honestly prefer them to pretend they are not gay, and get into a heterosexual relationship with someone else – perhaps even fathering or mothering children with someone toward whom there is no basic sexual attraction?

      You are entitled, if you want, to look on the Bible (a book that suggests the death penalty for homosexuals) as a champion of morality, but please don’t expect everyone to share your enthusiasm. In this video I give 10 examples of Bible verses that can even be described as advocating immoralityhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWCeGXRS-cQ

      • October 10, 2016 at 11:25 pm
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        First there’s heed to distinquish between preference and promiscuity. STD’s are not respecters of persons. Loose promiscuous behaviors endangers. Safe gender practices and ‘outlets’ can be learnt and discreetly taught -and civil unions also allowed.

    • October 9, 2016 at 5:18 am
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      If my friends works on the sabbath Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean Leviticus 11:7 (that’s football or anything else made with the skin of a dead pig)

      Leviticus also goes on to tell us that we should not be wearing garments of two different threads, and we should not be planting seeds of two different kinds side by side.

      Yet all these commandments are broken all the time by many, including Jehovah’s Witnesses.

      I prefer to live my life by one scripture Mark 12:31. If you care to read it you will see what I mean. To me that does not tell me that I should love anyone based on any prejudices. And the same goes for homosexuality.

      Blessings.

    • October 9, 2016 at 6:11 am
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      Joe Rizoli.

      In answer to your question I would teach my children the following moral principles about sex:

      -Be safe.
      -Be consensual.
      -Show respect to your partners.

      Beyond that, what consenting adults get up to in the bedroom is no-one else business.

  • October 9, 2016 at 12:17 am
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    I expect WT is trying to curb homophobia. I would probably avoid a murderer or a wife-beater and definitely a paedophile. However, I have friends who are homosexuals.
    Still the fact remains that such a lifestyle is not good for you. Death from STDs is obvious but affects all those who have a free sex life. Among homosexuals life expectancy is low; depression and suicide are higher.
    If you believe in God then you understand he is simply trying to give you the happiest life possible. God makes the sun shine on all of us – good and bad alike, but still asks certain behavior from us. But it’s up to each one of us to decide what we want to be. God is the judge.
    We don’t condone adultery, I hope, because of the hurt it causes. There are simply circumstances where we have to curb our sexuality. There are other things in life which are possibly better for us.

    • October 9, 2016 at 1:14 am
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      Depression and suicide rates are higher among gay people for the same reason homelessness is higher – they frequently have to deal with prejudice assholes like yourself or the Watchtower or other brands of religious jerks. Anyone is going to find life harder to cope with when you have to listen to people tell you stuff like this, your family reject you or keep changing you out of the house.
      Social pressures and taboos and a lack of queer sex education put all those things on the rise and it isn’t the fault of the gay person.

    • October 9, 2016 at 3:51 am
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      Can you provide evidence that life expectancy is lower and there are higher rates of depression and suicide among homosexuals?
      Or is that just your opinion based upon what you’ve observed in your homosexual ‘friends’?
      How many gay ‘friends’ do you even have? I wonder if they’ve picked up on your disapproving attitude towards them and this has altered their mood whenever you are around them.
      I know a lot of homosexual men and women and the occurrence of depression amongst them is no greater than it is in the general population. The only time I’ve heard of any suicides has been when the man or woman has been rejected by their family for being gay. In fact, every single (gay) person who I’ve known to have been raised as a JW has had thoughts of suicide and/or suffered from depression. Come to think of it, a LOT of JWs suffer from depression! Far more than the expected ratios within a large group too! Id say it could’ve been as high as 1:3 members possibly 1:2 during my time as a witness.
      Finally, Believe it or not, most homosexuals can live to a ripe old age just the same as any heterosexual person does!
      I think you are completely missing the point. You say it’s a fact that a homosexual lifestyle isn’t good for you. Are you for real? It’s no more a ‘lifestyle’ than heterosexuality- it’s what we are!

    • October 9, 2016 at 5:09 am
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      You seem to imply that homosexuals are more likely to contract STDs than heterosexuals. The fact is that the practice of monogamy and safe sex is equally applicable to any sexual oreintation with its benefits. Neither being homosexual or heterosexual leads to STDs, but rather being unwise is how you pursue sexual gratification.

      WS

      • October 9, 2016 at 5:11 am
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        That lag line should read “being unwise IN how you pursue sexual gratification.”

        • October 9, 2016 at 5:12 am
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          “Last line” – geez, autocorrect won’t give me a break today.

    • October 9, 2016 at 5:38 am
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      I wonder then Sarah if you understand where HIV came from. I was studying to become a nurse when I found out.

      HIV came from humans eating monkeys where they had SIV. Simian Immune Virus. However monkeys, have adapted to fight it off and so they don’t have the same problems as we do. http://www.theaidsinstitute.org/node/259

      If you had someone telling you, day in and day out what you are is wrong, would you not be depressed? Let’s take the ethnic idea for example. If someone told you day in day out that you were white trash, or black something or other day in and day out, would you not be depressed?

      Being homosexual is no different than being of a different skin color. They are born that way, and science has found that homosexuals are already programmed that way before they even exit the womb. So if you want to go down the “God created everything route” then God created homosexuals.

      Furthermore, my daughter is homosexual, and I am proud of her for who she is. The fact remains that she has a very good lifestyle, and just as in a straight relationship, she is careful and will not just lay down with any Tom Dick and Harry or in her case, Tomasina, Darlina or Helena. She has morals on that point and will stay chaste until the right person comes along.

      The lifestyle is good for my daughter. However, she is depressed not because she is homosexual, but because of people like you in her school telling her that this lifestyle is not good for her. Maybe people like you should be careful what you teach your children, because I believe it is those beliefs that causes depression in people like my daughter and then suicide, meaning you are morally responsible for their deaths.

      • October 9, 2016 at 11:25 am
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        Silent Lamb….your ‘god created everything so therefore created homosexuals’ point is spot on, but these fundamentalists just don’t want to recognize that. Murder, genocide, rape, incest, etc are all fine and dandy, apparently, while being gay deserves death.

        Fundamentalists are hung up on homosexuality being a choice. Sure, there are varying degree’s, but they need to get with the program, but they refuse and are just slipping further and further into the dusty, barbaric past.
        Just look at Islam if you want a snapshot of the JW paradise fantasy. Countries with hard-line religious views have been a cultural and economic backwater for centuries. Hands up those who want to go there. What?, no takers? Might pay to put your thinking cap on then, guy’s.

    • October 9, 2016 at 6:15 am
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      Sarah:

      If members of the LBGTQ community suffer from increased cases of suicide and depression, I’d suggest to you that this might have less to do with the sexual orientation itself, and more to do with the way they are treated; when family, friends and wider society reject them, attack them, persecute them and tell them from a young age that they are sinful and unnatural, it probably gets hard to keep a shiny outlook on life.

    • October 9, 2016 at 11:12 pm
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      God wants to make gay people’s life happier by murdering them?

    • October 10, 2016 at 11:50 pm
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      anyone checking Wikipedia about effects of Syphillis, Gonorrhea, Venereal diseases, HIV/AIDS ETC. should readily see need for self control.

      • October 11, 2016 at 1:08 am
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        Aril….are you implying that gay people are responsible for all of those diseases you mentioned?

  • October 9, 2016 at 1:19 am
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    The GB are gays too.

  • October 9, 2016 at 1:54 am
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    Remember..”It’s not a lie…If they don’t have a right to know the truth” So the general population has no right to know how WT really feels about homosexuality. When convenient it all comes down to the same self serving scape goat conscience soothing clause.

  • October 9, 2016 at 2:00 am
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    The rampant homophobia of the Society was well expressed in a convention speech delivered by high-ranking Bethelite Ciro Aulicino as relatively recently as 2007. The language used, both as regards the victims of Armageddon and gays, is direct in a way they would avoid in the written publications these days. Yet when addressing an all-Witness audience, Brooklyn representatives clearly allow themselves much more.

    An mp3 of the whole speech can be found here:
    http://www.watchtowerletters.com/media/ciro.mp3

    Here is a select transcript starting at 3:49. It really was a most charming speech he delivered to the district convention:

    ” … when Armageddon is over, we are going to face a rather grusome – not a rather, a VERY gruesome situation. Let’s turn to Jeremia 25, and see what He tells us about it through this prophet. Jeremiah 25:23, let’s open up our bibles – Jeremiah 25:23: ‘And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’

    Now try to picture this, friends – this gruesome picture! Dead bodies and body-parts of the wicked will lie strewn on the surface of the ground, in streets, alleyways, fields and buildings. Now notice that God in this verse tells us here that no one will mourn or bury these dead ones. Now what does this tell us? It shows us that we will not be traumatized by his mass annihilation of these individuals. No, his divine execution of the wicked will not haunt us for the rest of our lives. Rather we will react to it today as we do when [READ: we will react to it as we do today when] a vicious serial murderer is executed! How do you feel about him when HE gets it? Why, we will feel an inner SATISFACTION, our INDIGNATION has been appeased – yes, a sense of triumph that at last Jehovah’s justice has been served! AIDS has been stopped! The gays are gone! The homosexuals, the lesbians! The murderers, the drug[?lords] – all gone! Are you gonna feel SORRY for these people? No! And those that don’t mind them living around you, are you going to feel sorry for [?individual …] – no!”

    (Unquote.) Yes, Aulicino can’t wait for the day when “the gays are gone” because they are reduced to “dead bodies and body-parts … strewn on the surface of the ground”. He mentions gays before murderers and drug lords! Imagine the reactions if they had actually put something like this on print in their magazines.

  • October 9, 2016 at 4:00 am
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    as much as I know is nowhere in Bible – neither in the Hebrew nor in the Greek scriptures female homo sexuality namely mentioned or even forbidden.
    Always from “man” is the matter.

    • October 9, 2016 at 4:09 am
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      As for lesbianism, there is Romans 1:26 – 27, quoted in the article: ”That is why God gave them over to uncontrolled sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another.”

      But of course, the Bible is mostly about men, and written as if directed to men. The Ten Commandments tell you to not covet your neighbor’s wife, for instance. I guess it is “understood” that the same rule applies to women as regards their neighbor’s husband.

      • October 9, 2016 at 11:44 am
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        In such a male-centric culture they probably figured why waste commandments on women. They paint women as either vain, manipulative, or stupid in this type of culture.

        WS

  • October 9, 2016 at 7:14 am
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    I thoroughly disagree with you, on this one.
    Having been a JW for 14 years, & now disassociated for over 20 years.
    While a JW I had no problem working with and being neighbors with dozens of gay people. I respected their persons.

    • October 9, 2016 at 11:19 am
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      Charles

      Maybe you don’t really disagree here – we are just talking about different subjects. There is a difference between what youths are being taught by the organization and what JWs actually practice in their real lives.

      This demonstration is a political move on Watchtower’s part, making them appear more sympathetic to the “condition” of someone with gay tendencies. They are attempting to appear politically correct while still condemning homosexual behavior, suggesting that you can separate the two.

      I too knew and had dealings with gay persons when I was a JW, and I did not have the hate that most conservative JWs have for either the person or the “behavior”. The world is a different place than when you and I were in school, and the JW organization is attempting to adapt and pretend to respect gay persons while simultaneously banning them from the congregation. That is the reality.

      JR

  • October 9, 2016 at 7:16 am
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    On the jw.org website, incorporated in the homosexual articles it quotes from the Awake Dec. 2010 Young People ask article “What’s Your View of homosexuality?” and it says: “If someone asks: “What’s your view of homosexuality?” and then it answers with: “I don’t hate homosexuals, but I can’t approve of their conduct.”

    Back when the Society first printed those articles, most of the people in the United States didn’t agree with same sex marriage but since then the U.S. Supreme court said it’s legal in all of the 50 states and so now a person cannot be fired because of sexual orientation and they have the same rights as non gay people when it comes to marriage.

    So that is why most churches today condone gays and lesbians and even have gay preachers. If they don’t condone gays and lesbians, they can lose their tax exempt status. Even the Society can be sued if an elder comes out as gay and they lose their position over it. The Society is stuck between a rock and a hard place now. They want to keep tax exempt but they can’t condone homosexuality either.

    As far back as I can remember the Society has said it’s not the person who is condemned but the “practicing” of homosexuality as disgusting.

    If the Society wants to follow the Bible strictly, then they must condemn homosexual acts, but what that does to a young person or even an older person is to make them feel disgusting and unloved by God and their fellow “friends” at the Kingdom Hall if they even openly suggest they might be gay or lesbian and they will be forever having to live alone or marry somebody who they are not sexually attracted to. That isn’t fair to the marriage mate either.

    If society as a whole, realizes it’s not a “choice” and it is the same as having a certain skin color, then those children can grow up not feeling “disgusting” and society as a whole is beginning to realize that and are accepting of homosexuality but the Watchtower organization cannot change it’s teaching on homosexuality. Children should never be condemned or feel guilty for being attracted to the same sex. It is not a choice.

    The Society cannot get involved in politics to be tax exempt.

    When the Young People ask article first came out, those children were to answer with “I don’t hate homosexuals, but I can’t approve of their conduct” and now the Society realizes it’s not politically “correct” to say that anymore because now people in the community will look down on the Organization for being so narrow-minded and they surely don’t want to look narrow-minded so now they teach the kids to mislead anyone who asks them how they really feel about homosexuality. A few years ago it was okay to say they didn’t approve of their conduct and now those kids can’t say that anymore.

    Adults in the Organization know enough about the “unwritten” rules but kids take it literally and will blurt something like that out and now those kids make the Organization look bad in the eyes of the communities when all they were doing was following the orders of the Society from the Young people ask questions. The Society is compromising to make itself look good and throwing those kids under the bus that did what they were told to do.

    Most people in general, now realize the damage such narrow-minded condemnation of a gay or lesbian can do to a young person and don’t want young children to grow up feeling bad about themselves like many of the churches of a few years ago were preaching.

    It’s all about how does the rest of the world look on Jehovah’s Witnesses and they (Witnesses) want to be liked and not hated. Judge Rutherford didn’t care but the Society now wants to be admired and not ridiculed for it’s backwards beliefs and so they try and cover up their real teachings about homosexuality.

    When it comes to debating whether or not the Bible is to be followed when it comes to the Hebrew Scriptures and homosexuality, they won’t debate because they know when it comes to homosexuality, the Bible definitely said that they needed to be killed and the Society won’t touch those scriptures with a ten foot pole because it’s getting involved in hate speech. All they will say is that they “won’t inherit” God’s kingdom. They are cowards.

    This is what I found when I googled: “Do religions have to be politically neutral if they claim tax exemption”. It’s publication 1818 “Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Organization”.

    “Individual Activity by Religious Leaders
    The political campaign activity prohibition isn’t intended to restrict free expression
    on political matters by leaders of churches or religious organizations speaking for
    themselves, as individuals. Nor are leaders prohibited from speaking about important issues of public policy. However, for their organizations to remain tax exempt
    under IRC Section 501(c)(3), religious leaders can’t make partisan comments in
    official organization publications or at official church functions. To avoid potential
    attribution of their comments outside of church functions and publications, religious leaders who speak or write in their individual capacity are encouraged to
    clearly indicate that their comments are personal and not intended to represent
    the views of the organization.

  • October 9, 2016 at 7:43 am
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    Perhaps a bit OT, still lieing is hardly the worst of it, for the JWs. Here’s, a view held by a Mullah (Shiite), guest speaker on homosexuals. Talk about filling a healthy mind with a type radical phobia.

    ‘Behead, Burn, And Crush Gays’ Islamic Preacher To Deliver 10 Days Of Lectures In London

    A Islamic preacher who has referred to non-Muslims as “kuffar” and preached on how to kill homosexuals is due to deliver a set of nightly lectures at an Iranian government-backed organisation in London, Breitbart London can reveal.
    Shaykh Hamza Sodagar – who gained notoriety earlier this year for his lecture on “one of five” ways to kill homosexuals – is due to speak at the Islamic Republic of Iran School in north-west London between October 4th – 12th.
    According to a speaker biography, Mr. Sodagar regards himself as a “role model” for “young Muslims all around the world”. A recent video of the preacher features Mr. Sodagar stating: “If there’s homosexual men, the punishment is one of five things. One – the easiest one maybe…

    In part and credit to.. BREITBART News(c/p article header to your search engine if the rest of the read is needed)

    A comment, one has to wonder what the heck is going on in Britain! The likes of Michael Savage can’t go there because he is “inflammatory” but a “homos must die” Mullah is OK?!?! Just friggin Bizarre.

    IMHO

    dogstar

    • October 11, 2016 at 2:27 pm
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      sirius…..maybe the authorities in Britain are allowing this Islamic preacher to talk in order for them to see who turns up. To lure the rats from their nests and record their faces.

      That’s exactly what I would do.

      I once worked for the Gestapo.

  • October 9, 2016 at 8:08 am
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    >>>It is considered acceptable to lie to non-Witnesses if the end result will benefit the Watchtower organization, or protect it from any perceived harm.

    Intriguing! Soooo, JWs can lie for Jehovah? Meaning there’s a disconnect between the heart of a JW and the JW’s tongue and suddenly Jehovah knows this because the lie is not from the heart of the believer? Wonder if there’s a list of acceptable lies, like saving one’s life under the threat of death?

    IMHO

    dogstar

  • October 9, 2016 at 8:18 am
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    Great character building for the young, teaching
    them to practice deceitful and misleading speech.

    A recent Gallup poll in America revealed that the
    majority of young people polled 13 to 29 age group
    had no problem accepting gays. Maybe this is why
    the org, is directing their propaganda at the youth.

    I’m sure some of the young JWs will feel uncomfortable
    about being two faced, as I was when the K, ministry
    told us to introduce ourselves to householders saying
    we were “Conducting a Survey”, when we were doing
    no such thing.

    • October 9, 2016 at 4:28 pm
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      We used to say, “That we are not on a membership drive.”
      It sounded great but I knew that was a complete lie. We were always trying to rope people in!

  • October 9, 2016 at 8:27 am
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    I generally agree with your articles, however I believe that you are missing the point of their demonstration. They’re basically saying that they have nothing against sexual orientation. For instance, a brother could be gay that is attracted to men and still be qualified to be an elder. Unfortunately, the poor man will have to live a life of celibacy as he is expected never to act on his desires. Knowing that they think exactly the same of people who are not married and yet are heterosexuals, I believe that in that sense they are right that they are not discriminating against sexual orientation. This however does not work when they are talking against men who are wearing tight pants. That little rule shows that they are indeed discriminating against sexual tendencies. But if we are to limit judgment upon them on what was said in that demonstration I don’t see exactly the problem as they judge 99% of the entire planet population the exact same way: they all deserve to die for one sin or another.

    • October 9, 2016 at 9:08 am
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      Hi Stephane.

      The point of the article is that Watchtower showcases as a positive example a JW girl making claims that are demonstrably untrue.

      1: That the bible teaches respect for people of all sexual orientations. This is untrue, no such scriptures exist, whilst scriptures commanding that gays be killed do exist.

      2: That the girl rejects homosexual conduct, not people. Whilst we can split hairs over how the girl frames the reason for her rejection, the fact remains that the ultimate end point is that the girl will reject any homosexual person who is not celibate, amounting to the same thing in the real world.

      3: The girl claims smoking is the same as homosexuality, when it demonstrably is not, for the reasons outlined in the article.

      4: The girl claims that she respects the right of others to choose, whereas in reality she will cut off and shun any JW’s whose choose to live in harmony with their same sex orientation. This is not respecting another choice by any reasonable interpretation.

      Thus, the point of this article is not to split hairs over how Watchtower tries to frame it’s doctrine, the point is that it is encouraging JW’s to lie and make false claims in a PR attempt to win over non-JW’s.

    • October 9, 2016 at 10:08 am
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      This must be a new belief. Sexual Orientation/ Gay was always disfellowshipped over in the past.

      Catholics have always taken this view, which is why many gay Catholics become priests. They are not shunned, just used differently in the congregation.

      So the rules have changed for JWs and they accept celibate gays OR they are lying.

    • October 9, 2016 at 11:12 am
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      Stephanie

      Thanks for sharing your comments. I might mention that it is important to understand the greater perspective and reason behind this Watchtower demonstration, and their somewhat revised stance on homosexuality. Remember, the organization ALWAYS is reactionary, and changes its doctrine whenever it is forcibly cornered. For example, they were young earth creationists for decades, until that concept became so utterly absurd that the finally converted to old earth creationism, using Genesis 1:1 as their bailout, while still retaining their belief that Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE

      The same is true of homosexuality. They are under intense fire for their incredibly hostile treatment of the gay community and have been forced to alter their stance. Only in the very recent past have they change their view to accept that some persons are biologically attracted to the same sex. This was NEVER the case in the past. Have a look at what Watchtower wrote in the prior 50 years – the ignorance is on a level which is on a part with flat-earth believers.

      The organization has changed its stance to appear understanding of feelings of homosexuality while still maintaining its policy of banning actual homosexual behavior and disfellowshipping any Witnesses who practice who they are biologically. This is a political move by Watchtower and only comes AFTER confirmation from the scientific and medical community that a person is either inherently gay or straight, or in some cases a combination of both. Watchtower is defying its own prior stance, which is yet another demonstration that they in no way have “God’s Spirit” upon them, if one believes this exists.

      In the end, we recognize that even many non JWs will disagree with what we now know to be truth about homosexuality, and we can’t control what people think. But make no mistake, if you think Watchtower has nothing against sexual orientation, you are greatly misinformed. This demonstration is just a publicity move. In the real world of Jehovah’s Witnesses, when the demonstrations are finished and members go back to their homes, their meetings and their field service car groups – they have no love for those who are gay; and don’t forget – their Bible teaches that those who practice homosexual behavior will indeed “not inherit” God’s Kingdom – they will be killed at Armageddon.

      It seems God prefers to kill them before he will “fix” them in the post Apocalyptic paradise earth they all dream about.

      JR

      • October 10, 2016 at 12:50 am
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        Pointing out that god prefers to kill gays at Armageddon instead of ‘fixing’ them like he would do for, say, a blind person or somebody with a serious disease, is a very good point, John.

        Does the WT preach anything at all that will stand up under unbiased scrutiny?

      • October 11, 2016 at 1:01 am
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        There are difference among times &
        dispensations. The times allotted gentiles were interspersed with Grace but that does not impede or block all natural consequences for persistent injurious practices. Even so, Deity still overcomes and even eventually compassionately erases and delivers from evil when sought.

        • October 11, 2016 at 1:55 am
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          @Aril, can you try and explain what you are trying to say here? I don’t get it.

      • October 11, 2016 at 6:17 am
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        Point well taken in regard to the level of ignorance regarding Watchower statements about homosexuality in years past. According to the original Youth book, homosexuality was a learned behavior stemming from masturbation! Sad thing is that there are likely many older, long time JWs who still believe this is true.

        I remember when the Watchtower first made the statement a few years back that JWs don’t hate homosexuals, my father (who was also born-into this cult) remarked, “We don’t?”

        WS

  • October 9, 2016 at 9:53 am
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    The fact that they are training them in what to say proves they are a cult.

    Also, JWs DO hate the people. They avoid them like they have leprosy.

  • October 9, 2016 at 9:58 am
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    The bible only talks about men laying with men being wrong. It says nothing about women laying with women. So lesbians should be fine for JWs…… But we all know they are not.

  • October 9, 2016 at 10:02 am
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    The bible NEVER asks you to lie for God.

    Satan is the father of the lie. “You will know them by their fruits”.

    “Theocratic Warfare” is not found in the bible.

  • October 9, 2016 at 10:26 am
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    What a joke, this will never work because if “Emily” is really that curious she will google JW’s and find that “Hannah” wasn’t telling her the whole truth. The guys on the GB are really underestimating this generation of young people.

  • October 9, 2016 at 11:12 am
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    My ex husband ( still a JW) referred to any statement that clearly was a lie , to a “theocratic lie” and always referenced the Abraham/Sarah situation (where Abraham said Sarah was his sister ) to avoid any consequence of attributing a lie to someone (or organization) to advance theocratic purposes. I see this as a response to all the legal issues regarding child abuse within the organization. I don’t think they (GB) can absorb much more living in the 21 century. Oh, yes, that’s right great tribulation and Armageddon (expected many years ago) still awaiting, time to change policy. If you can live in the world , why cant we ?

    • October 9, 2016 at 12:12 pm
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      This is a good point Da – the organization (and individual JWs) use that Abraham/Sarah situation to get away with not telling the full truth to anyone “not entitled to know”. They also justify abhorrent behavior (like that of King David) – demonstrating that even high ranking persons in the organization can have a clear conscience despite guilt for past crimes. Once you have that so called clear conscience – it’s virtually a licence to get away with anything you desire. Even the elders’ handbook provides absolution for an elder who committed a disfellowshipping offense more than a “few years” ago, provided the sin is concealed and not apparent to members of the congregation. Religion is quite a game of chess it seems, and if you know the right moves you can be a successful player

      JR

  • October 9, 2016 at 12:13 pm
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    In this regard of article I have to agree with Watchtower and also as a follower of Yahushua HaMashiach.
    As we read through Old Testament we can see what happened to those who supported same sex relationships.The God Almighty of Universe YHVH came destroyed those nations and replaced with another ones in Old Testament was by Jewish people.
    Those who believe in God would not ignore this and realize what God commanded having sexual relationships between men and women is forever and those who goes against Gods Will will be judged by God severally.

    It’s ok guys to disagree however I follow God Almighty of Universe and his Law and Torah is perfect and direction of my life.Shalom.

    • October 9, 2016 at 2:02 pm
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      @Kamil Levi Pyka, I don’t think this article is disagreeing with the Bible but in the Watchtower’s promoting deception on the part of young people in the way they won’t admit it’s actual teaching on homosexuality.

      If you are a true believer in the Bible when it comes to homosexuality, then you would also be believing that homosexuals should be killed even now before Armageddon if they practice homosexuality. That was the law given to the Israelites from Jehovah, wasn’t it? Even the Watchtower now admits that people are born homosexual but they just can’t act on their sexual inclinations to be accepted in good standing in the Witness religion.

      If a person wants to be “accepted” in the congregation, a person who is sexually attracted to people of the same sex has to keep quiet about it but if they openly tell others in the congregation that it’s not a “choice” but they were born that way, they would probably be hauled before a committee for promoting a “sect” and trying to start their own religion.

      The Watchtower has every right to have the rule that Witnesses can’t be openly “gay” if they want to be a Witness in good standing but they should not try and cover it up to the public. They should be telling the truth about how they really treat homosexuals so the public can see the “truth” for what it really is, not the white-washed version they like to fool the public with.

    • October 10, 2016 at 6:56 am
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      whoa, im glad the bible is fiction then.

  • October 9, 2016 at 12:33 pm
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    I certainly am in no way surprised at this development.Watchtower is a cult founded on lies. It is extremely homophobic. And it will do anything to try and stem the haemorrhage of its adherents. Being an ex jw, it lied to me about everything. It will eventually lie its way in to oblivion.

  • October 9, 2016 at 3:52 pm
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    I had this misfortune of seeing this in person today. It was disgusting. Even when I was fully mentally in, the position against LGBT+ persons made me very uncomfortable.

    Also of note was the talk about Jehovah’s personal name. Hilarious considering even they acknowledged during the JW Broadcast last year that it’s actually not his name but A-OK to use it anyway.

  • October 9, 2016 at 5:22 pm
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    Obviously the organisation has a major problem with this issue. If the truth be known….it’s over run with them. Now that’s a good thing !! Paradise without gays…count me out

  • October 9, 2016 at 5:23 pm
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    Idk if this is pertinent to mention here but after reading all of the comments it reminded me of something I recently read in the WTBS Correspondence Guidelines. The question was asked about Transgender people and if a person who had undergone a sex change operation could be baptised. I will copy and paste the response-
    If an individual considers undergoing a sex-change operation basically to bring the appearance of the sex organs into line with what the individual emotionally and mentally feels himself or herself to be, that one should be advised to live in accord with the biologi- cal facts of the situation. (w97 6/15 18- 19; w74 6/15 360) Mutilating the sex organs, such as having the male organ surgically removed and an artificial female organ created, does not change the facts or make the person into the opposite sex. Someone desiring to be baptized who has already undergone a mutilating operation of this sort (a transsexual) would be expected to take his or her place in life in accord with what the individual biologically is, not in accord with what the person has been mutilated to appear to be. This may even re- quire that the person leave a “mate” to whom the person is “married,” since the mutilated one is actually (biologically) of the same sex as the “mate.”
    I was appalled upon reading this that the organisation is so opposed to homosexuality that they would expect a transgender person to revert back to the gender they were born as. They clearly don’t recognise any marriage as legal and if it means that ‘biologically’ the partnership is same sex then they must terminate the relationship.

    • October 10, 2016 at 9:24 am
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      To Imgonaburn; I thought about this scenario and wondered how it would go if the trans gendered person just did not bring up their operation. I think it would be very embarrassing for the org to discover some elders actually were women. Not that I actually think some are. LOL!

      • October 10, 2016 at 10:33 am
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        WOW!

    • October 11, 2016 at 6:51 am
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      This is upheld in a certain city in Canada. A transgender was forced into going back to being what he/she was at birth. This meant going to the hall in clothing that was confusing to him/her. It caused a few stares. He she was know mockingly within the hall as Sister Mr. I know individuals in that hall and they were quite cruel in their comments when out of ear shot.

  • October 10, 2016 at 6:39 am
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    I don’t know about any of you, I find Donald Trump and Anthony Morris III are of the same mind set. Completely nuts! Hillary Clinton has caused both men to lose their minds. According to Hillary Clinton’s web site, she will extend homosexuals rights. Hillary will make the discrimination based on sexual orientation a reality. The Watchtower back tracking is so amusing. What a fear of “woman”.

    • October 10, 2016 at 7:14 am
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      The problem is Hillary use minorities, like obama did, to have votes but in the end they don’t have time for them. All they want is division, gays against etheros, balck against white, women against men so they will have the excuse to activate martial law and use military force in america against every opponent. Hillary is ruled by sionists, sionists wants the world. USA, France and others who strong sionist lobbies are destroying the middle east to help Israel occupy those countries but the american and french people will be also hunted like the palestines are been exterminated from their own country. As soon as civil wars begin as they are doing in palestine. So stop watch propaganda about trump’s little scandals and research what the oligarquy of hillary and obama have did. They are responsible for ISIS. So choose her just because she like gays!!

  • October 10, 2016 at 7:18 am
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    Lets face it. Whatever backlash the WT gets, be it from LGBT society, from child abuse scandals, from df’ing, shunning, blood transfusions……. the society will always use the ‘persecution’ card. The GB will convince the minions that because of the stand they make they will be persecuted… you can’t win with these people. a piece of 4×4 across the head won’t wake them up if they are deeply entrenched in the cult. Just look at the bunker video’s…..

  • October 10, 2016 at 9:18 am
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    I think what we may be seeing is a subtle shift in the JW stand on homosexuality. Let’s face it, those gay-bashing scriptures are in most Bible translations, but most mainstream Christian Churches are welcoming of any sexual orientation. Now this doesn’t mean that I agree with their methods or that the pendulum might not shift back he other way.

    This is my thinking: the JWs are a cult, but virtually every religion started out as a cult. When Christianity started it was a breakaway cult from the mainstream Judaism. When Protestantism started it was a breakaway cult from Catholicism. But as each of these cults grew, they had to become less cultish and more mainstream in order to survive. I think this is where the Watchtower is currently. They are at a crossroads: either become more mainstream to garner continued growth or stay a cult and begin to dwindle in supporters. It’s unknown which way they will go.

    So while I don’t agree with their methods and I do see the issue with lying in the approach they are currently taking, it could mean their cultish mentality is starting to crack. Trust me, I hold no hopes that there will be some sudden and dramatic change, but I think something has to give one way or the other.

    WS

    • October 10, 2016 at 10:24 am
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      Winston – I would agree, we have been seeing a subtle shift, but the truth is this is only to protect the interests of Watchtower. They are riding the fine line between personal beliefs/religion and outright vocal discrimination. The real issue for Watchtower is its charity status in many 1st world countries. They are at risk of losing charitable status if they go one step too far. I think they feel they are being progressive and protecting themselves by admitting that a person can have homosexual desires due to their biology rather than by external influence. But – demanding that they not act on their desires might end up being worse for them in the long run. Now they (Watchtower) have to answer for why God would permit his worshipers to suffer such desires. Of course they claim it is a sin from which one must abstain the same as any other “sin” such as stealing. It will be interesting to see how Witnesses who are gay react to their posture, now that their desires are acknowledged, but still completely forbidden. It’s a difficult place to exist in, that much is certain. JR

      • October 10, 2016 at 8:07 pm
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        JR,
        I agree – self preservation is the primary goal of the Watchtower Society. But then most religions have that goal, survival and maintaining some level of control and prestige. Very few exist for purly altruistic reasons.

        I also agree that they are trying to have their feet in both camps – feigning sympathy and love for homosexuals, while at the same time condemning them. Doublethink goes with the territory for JWs so it’s not too hard to fathom. Their membership also tends to be very conservative or even fundamentalist (although there are some progressive minded members). They need to continue to appease their long time members who are used to the condemnatory stand towards homosexuals, while at the same time appearing to be politically correct to those on the outside. It’s like trying to balance on a razor’s edge and sure to fall one way or the other.

        WS

  • October 10, 2016 at 10:09 am
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    Something definitely has to give. But even softening their stance on homosexuality would not necessarily make them any less of a cult.
    Great article. Another example of soft-coating their hard-ass doctrine in order to maintain the squeaky-clean “angel-of-mercy” image. When, oh, when, will the “World” wake up and outlaw this degenerate cult??? I personally am not holding my breath. It seems human judgment and common sense have gone to sh*t, seeing how half of America (& probably the World) are presently supporting Crazy Donald.

    • October 10, 2016 at 8:18 pm
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      It certainly does not make them any less of a cult. My point is that they (the leadership) have a choice to make here: begin to go mainstream and remain viable or continue as a cult and to lose membership in droves. I think they are likely hemorraging both financially and in terms of membership. I certainly don’t have much hope that they will take the reasonable approach and back away from the cult behavior. I think that there are probably elements within the leadership that want some change, but much of the cult reasoning is so engrained they can’t see past it.

      BTW – Hillary is just as nuts as Donald – just in other ways.

      WS

      • October 10, 2016 at 11:44 pm
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        It looks as if jehovah has again used his infallible spirit to direct the Watchtower into another jam.

        They insult the intelligence of their followers every single day.

  • October 10, 2016 at 11:19 am
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    No matter how much whip cream one uses, no matter the amount of sprinkles, a piece of $h!+ remains a piece of $h!+.

    God I hope watchtower meets it’s end soon.

    Have y’all heard people are being invited to all meetings? That’s one way to increase donations. Invite people who are accustomed to putting money in the basket

  • October 10, 2016 at 3:14 pm
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    I wonder the answers be the same if the first question was;
    Emily: I think it’s so cool that your JW friends Ashley and Jessica have come out as being Lesbian, don’t you?

  • October 11, 2016 at 6:57 am
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    Folks,

    let’s make one thing crystal clear:

    In JW.Org-speak, …

    “Love for God” = “Love for the JW.Org aka WTS”.

    “Love for Jehovah” = “Love for the Governing Body.”

    It’s as simple as that. The JW.Org, in its incredibly maniac, self-obsessed, self-centered, self-focussed, navel-gazing and narcissistic megalomania, sets itself equal to God by its outrageous and incessant claim to transmit God’s own thoughts to humankind (“God’s sole channel”, “God’s only spokesman”, “spirit-directed” etc.). matches the description found in 2 Thess 2,4:

    “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

    Here is what’s happening folks:

    The JW.Org has mastered the art of usurping the Bible, masterfully using it merely as an alibi and smokescreen to “theologically bolster” its unbiblical dogmas and countless manmade directives and edicts, for the sake of promoting and pushing her own human corporate interests. It’s as simple as that. Fat cats pushing and imposing their own human agenda to assure the continued existence of their own cozy, marbled, air conditioned luxury lake view offices with heavy leather armchairs and massive oak desks to cozily cuddle their fat butts and play God on this earth. I feel like throwing up … ;-)

  • October 11, 2016 at 8:26 am
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    I think they are already accepting of gays providing
    they don’t continue with homosexual practices,
    which has scriptural backing. As the apostle says
    “This is what some of you were”.

    In my daughters cong, there is a young man, out of
    the closet and who says he is fighting his gay
    impulses. What an awful burden to put on anyone,
    a lifetime of struggling against ones biological
    nature.

    And for what purpose? For a prize that will always
    be just ahead of you, like the carrot before the
    donkey.

    • October 11, 2016 at 8:53 am
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      Twmack, jwsurvey ran an article on Oct. 16, 2015 entitled “The tight Pants Rule: Wearing “disturbing” clothing gets you banned from preaching”.

      It is interesting that the Society didn’t put it in print but gave the information to the circuit overseers to ban any men who acted effeminate and girls who wore too short of hair from the preaching work. So, even though the Society won’t ban anybody who acts effeminate from attending meetings, they won’t accept their field service time and the same thing goes for women who wear too short of hair.

  • October 11, 2016 at 10:40 am
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    @Caroline, Thanks for the extra details. Your
    research and comments are always spot on.

    Do a persons mannerisms always indicate their
    gender preference? I can think of men I’ve known
    with that lispy gay voice and theatrical gestures
    but who were as hetero, as a stud bull.

    Also we had a sister in our cong, of butch appearance
    and who played football with the bros, but she was as
    interested in men from a romantic point of view as
    most women are . ( she was also a better ball player
    than the men ).

    So I guess if such ones want to start spreading the
    news they’ll have to to take acting lessons.
    As Hitchcock said to one of his actors who had difficulty
    getting into character– “Well fake it Ingrid”.

  • October 11, 2016 at 2:14 pm
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    COMMENT FROM RICHARD OLIVER

    The following comment was received by JW Survey from reader Richard Oliver, an active Witness who was unable to post using his account. If you wish to reply, mention “Reply to Richard Oliver” at the beginning of your reply.

    “As a gay Witness I do have to say that there are cases of homophobia in the congregations but I believe it is more than just their being witnesses that are causing them to be homophobic. I know plenty of witnesses who don’t care what people do in their personal lives and they are Elders and COs and responsible brothers and sisters. I think that these people who are homophobic witnesses would be homophobic if they were not witnesses. I think that the organization is trying to be better at showing people in congregations not to be so homophobic. I have discussed my tendencies with plenty of elders and COs and never have I come across that they treated me any differently or been more cautious with me. I still am invited into their homes on a regular basis get to associate with their families and have open and clear communication with them. Granted I haven’t come out to a lot of people but that is a choice that every gay person has to decide who they are going to come out to and when and there are some that choose to be openly gay and some who choose not to publicize it, but it is each of our choices. “

    • October 11, 2016 at 3:01 pm
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      Reply to Richard Oliver……well I’m glad they’re showing some respect for you, Richard, but I wonder how they reconcile what the Bible says about homosexuality with their now revised view. Aren’t they supposed to be the only ones in the world following the Bible? Well, why don’t they!

      So now they’re lying because they’re on the back foot and trying to match putting a gay to death, with…..not putting him to death? Welcoming him into their homes, even! My, oh my!!

      What a tangled web we weave when first we set out to deceive.

      Personally, I wouldn’t trust their motives. Be careful.

      I wonder when and if the WT release their child abuse documents, that it gets shown that homosexuality is common among witnesses and so they’re pushing to change their view/public perception in preparation for when the news hits the streets.

    • October 11, 2016 at 3:45 pm
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      Reply to Richard Oliver.

      I am also a JW but I have been inactive for two years now due to quite different understandings of the Bible. I have to bring witness that your account is correct and that probably the meaning of what Hannah means in the example is that the brothers and sisters in the congregations do not treat a gay brother or sister in a different way from an heterosexual brother or sister. Unless he/she commits sexual immorality. I do not want to speak for you Richard, but I believe this to be a burden to carry that is quite heavy for anyone. Rejecting instincts to what is, for you, a normal behavior, cannot be easy.
      I believe, and I speak for myself, that it is not our privilege or duty to judge anyone based on his/her sexual tendency. It is true the Bible condemns homosexuality but it is also true the Bible teaches us of the resurrection of righteous and unrighteous. I strongly believe, contrary to GB, that salvation is a personal matter between you and God; i do not believe belonging to a church, a congregation, to be a ticket to paradise as well as I do not believe God will judge you for sexual tendencies you are born with. After all you are part of His creation, are you not? You are part of His children, are you not?
      I believe the Bible to be a path: a path from simple rules and laws that had to be black and white to provide guidance to a nation 3000 years ago that just left a pagan country, all the way to spiritual principles basically based on two major rules: Love your God and Love your neighborhood. Look at the Decalogue. All laws are spelled in the negative form. But look at Jesus: all the principles are in positive form. From the do not’s of the Hebrew Scripture and the do’s of the Greek Scriptures is a spiritual growth we should understand and apply. We should throw away old laws and apply principles to our life. This is, by the way, what is separating me more and more from the JW church: the number of rules and laws that are pervading every day the congregation is in exponential growth, the Do not’s are retaking priority on the Do’s, cancelling those 3000 years of spiritual growth we have done. I, and I speak for myself, have a principle that teaches me to even love my enemies. Gays are not my enemies; if Jesus told me to even love my enemies, why should I not love my neighborhood regardless his/her sexual tendency? So I do, and I do not discriminate and I do not judge their sexual life, and no one on this planet should. A person is way more, in my eyes, than his sexual appetites. I actually love how wonderfully different we all are, each one of us including inside himself the whole universe.

  • October 11, 2016 at 3:14 pm
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    @Richard Oliver, when you say that you know plenty of Witnesses that don’t care what people do in their personal lives and they are elders and COs and responsible brothers and sisters, are you saying that those elders and COs and responsible brothers and sisters don’t care what other Witnesses do in their private sex lives or are you talking about what the “world” does in their private sex life? If you are saying that those people (elders etc.) don’t care about the sex lives of those in the congregation, then I don’t think I belonged to the same religion as you do.

    • October 11, 2016 at 3:54 pm
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      Caroline, I try to reply even if the question was for Richard. No elder or CO should put his nose in the private lives of anyone unless:
      There are clear signs of distress
      There clear signs of diminishing involvement in congregation activities.
      There is a call for help (sexual abuse)
      This is in line with Gal. 6:1 that teaches us that it is correct to bring help if danger is perceived. But only in that case. If brothers and sisters live a good life, they participate to meetings and all activities and so on, there is no reason in the world for elders to prick their nose in their private life. Sometimes this has exposed the congregation to the sexual abuse case as elders have not properly considered the first two signs.

      • October 11, 2016 at 6:02 pm
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        @fadingtruth and Richard Oliver. All the time that I was in the “truth” (50 years), the only private sex lives that those in the congregation cared about was fellow Witnesses. Nobody cared that much about the private lives of those not in the “truth” but they would make mean comments about homosexuals though.

        It used to be that Witnesses couldn’t do oral sex between married couples even and married couples (man and woman) couldn’t have sex during the wife’s period. If we saw anybody smoking, we had to talk to them to tell the elders or we had to tell the elders on them. If somebody was engaged, they’d still be disfellowshipped if somebody knew that they had stayed together in the same house over night. If they “fooled” around before marriage, they’d be considered fornicating and could be called in for a judicial. If somebody was “gay” they certainly couldn’t have a “boyfriend”. I don’t know if my congregation is different than yours is, but that is the religion that I was in for 50 years.

        The way I remember it, everyone in the congregation was responsible to “keep the congregation clean”. If you are in a congregation where the elders aren’t concerned about the sex lives of those in the congregation, then your congregation is not following along with the Society’s guidelines and if that is true, then I think there’s a defection going on big time.

        • October 12, 2016 at 4:12 pm
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          Caroline.
          I too remember all of that as being how it was. A couple of years ago my married daughter was telling me how a sister in her congregation was ‘taken into the back room’ by the elders and ‘counselled’ about ‘promoting oral sex’ by telling other sisters how good it is!
          I told my daughter that it was/is regarded as ‘unclean conduct’ and she assured me that I was wrong and that it has all changed now! Apparently, she told me, it’s ok now to do whatever you like with your husband! You’re just not allowed to broadcast it to others what you get up to in case they’re stumbled. Wouldn’t want them to fall face first somewhere they shouldn’t!!

    • October 11, 2016 at 4:50 pm
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      Reply from Richard Oliver to Caroline:

      “What I meant by not caring what people do in their personal life, I obviously meant those who are not associated with a congregation. I know plenty of fine elders and COs who could care less if their waiter, plumber, nurse or co-worker was gay or not. But of course there are some that are homophobic.
      But you cannot blame homophobia exclusively on religion. I had a Chinese boyfriend whose family were not religious at all, but he would not tell them that he was gay. In his culture homosexuality is something that is looked down upon because of their culture. He told me in fact he had a lesbian cousin that he would want me to marry so that she could live with her girlfriend and I could live with him but it would make both families happy.
      And outandabout:
      I kind of find it offensive and I am not sure if you meant it like this but you saying that gay people are more inclined to be pedophiles. Of course there are pedophiles that are gay and look for same sex victims but there are more cases of the opposite being true.
      I would also like to say I became closer with some of the elders after I came out to them because they knew that I was struggling with something serious and wanted to be a true friend to me and show me that they actually care. “

      • October 11, 2016 at 6:56 pm
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        Richard Oliver…..am absolutely NOT suggesting gay’s are more inclined to be pedophiles. Slight misunderstanding there.

        I was wondering if what would be found among the child abuse documents which the WT are refusing to release, is evidence of homosexual behaviour among witnesses which they have suppressed for obvious reasons, and so in anticipation of the eventual forced release of those documents, WT is preparing the ground for the inevitably shocked witnesses as well as trying to present a more acceptable public image with this latest ‘hug a homo’ track.

        You have to view the situation from the WT’s perspective. Survival is their ultimate goal. No question. Every single thing they do and say is based on that. They don’t ‘love’ you, me or anybody except themselves. What would you do in their situation where they are being exposed for what they are. They have nothing to lose so they may as well try another one on the gullible witnesses. They’ve managed to fool them so far, so hey!

        Like i suggested, be careful. You are the only one who can judge your situation, but make no mistake, if those friendly elders were under instructions to shun the b’jesus out of you, they more than likely would. But now they’re now told to accept you. Can you trust that? I don’t feel that is the basis of a sound and healthy relationship.

        I don’t want to tar all elders with the same brush. We had a lovely guy as a family friend for years, and I had one on my doorstep awhile back, another really like-able guy who, even now, I would have as a friend. He was that good, but, the first thing he did was lie to me about the child abuse problem. He claimed to know nothing about it at all, so I filled him in. We had more discussion about other things, but he exposed himself upon leaving when he tried to reassure me that the society was getting on top of the abuse situation……. something he was supposed to know nothing about.

        I tell you this, Richard, to show you that even the most loveliest of Elders could be running to a script and may not be genuine.

        You’ll sort it out.

        • October 11, 2016 at 7:14 pm
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          Richard….another thought….is it possible the WT are trying to cuddle up to as many gay people among their ranks as possible in order to have you all get up and speak about how lovely it is being a gay witness? Are you being groomed for a public relations stunt? Having elders and CO’s suddenly being nice to you after despising you since forever is very very suspicious. Don’t under estimate them! The WT and their minions are very well greased snakes!

      • October 12, 2016 at 2:33 am
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        @Richard Oliver. I am trying to get a straight answer from you about whether or not you can engage in homosexual behavior in your congregation and your elders don’t care? Is that what you are saying in your first comment? If that is true, then you are not in the same religion as I was in.

        My husband was an elder for ten years and he told me about a case of a disfellowshiped woman from our congregation who moved to another state and she married a man who was not a Witness and the wedding was performed in her Kingdom Hall and she went out in service and everybody talked to her even though she was disfellowshiped when she left our Kingdom Hall and was not reinstated by the elders from our Kingdom Hall.

        My husband’s comment was that her Kingdom Hall was doing what they wanted to do and that in probably many other congregations, those elders did what they wanted to do and didn’t follow what the Society said they should be doing.

        My husband’s comment was that it seemed that there were a lot of congregations like that. Is that what you are trying to get at in your first comment?

        As far as what the congregations are supposed to do is to accept homosexuals but they can’t engage in homosexual activity or be disfellowshiped because it’s considered sinning and from that letter to he circuit overseers, they can’t let people who “act” gay or dress gay to go in service. In other words, the Society doesn’t want the public in general to think that it’s okay to be gay and be a Witness.

        I believe that the Society won’t put those guidelines in print in Watchtower publications because they would be going against what the U.S. government said would be illegal treatment of homosexuals and they would lose their tax exempt status because they would be breaking the tax code for tax exempt organizations.

        • October 12, 2016 at 8:56 am
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          Caroline

          Reply from Richard Oliver:

          “Caroline the elders did know that I had engaged in homosexual activity at one time and I was subsequently reproved. The brothers dealt with the situation by reproving me with a private reproof. They did not treat me differently than before. They still treated me as they had always did except I think that they treated me with more kindness and care following it. They knew that I was dealing with something that I may never get over so they wanted to express care and concern for me. “

          • October 12, 2016 at 11:26 am
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            @Richard, I believe you when you say that they treated you with more kindness and care following the reproof because my husband was reproved for pornography but his was public and he was 68 years old. I could see that the elders were very kind to him afterwards because I think they did have sympathy for him in that they felt that he felt so ashamed. I think most elders are like that, judging from my own Kingdom Hall elders as well. I don’t know what it’s like in other Kingdom Halls but I can picture the elders in my old Kingdom Hall also being very kind and sympathetic in a situation like your situation if they have any fellow feelings at all.

            My husband never accepted being homosexual was not a choice, even though the Society acknowledged that sometimes it wasn’t a choice. He was convinced it was a “sinful” choice they make and I think many of the older generation are of that mindset as well.

            If the elders accept homosexual activity the same as “straight” sex between married people, then they would have to completely change their view of homosexuality and if they did that, I think most of the older generation would have heart attacks and wonder why in the world the Organization went satanic, so I can’t see the Organization ever changing it’s stance on homosexual activity. They can be homosexual but they can’t do any homosexual activity.

  • October 11, 2016 at 7:12 pm
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    Here is a link from Hillary Clinton’s web site: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/lgbt-equality/. It goes into details on how she will handle discrimination based on sexual orientation. Anthony Morris may want to tone it down a bit. Especially his tight pants commentary.

  • October 11, 2016 at 8:24 pm
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    “Masturbation and Homosexuality”, Chapter 5 of the Watchtower’s 1976 Youth Book, had this to say:

    “Weakly giving in to sexual desires by masturbation will certainly not give you strength when faced with a situation tempting you to commit fornication—or even homosexuality. Just the opposite, it cultivates wrong thinking and wrong desire. In fact, masturbation can lead into homosexuality. In such instances the person, not satisfied with his lonely sexual activity, seeks a partner for mutual sex play.

    This happens much more frequently than you may realize. Contrary to what many persons think, homosexuals are not born that way, but their homosexual behavior is learned. And often a person gets started when very young by playing with another’s sexual parts, and then engaging in homosexual acts.” (p. 39)

    Given the fact this was published all the way back in 1976, I wonder if they still subscribe to this belief.

    • October 12, 2016 at 12:00 pm
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      Response to JWIntellect from Richard Oliver:

      “Please don’t use old references to make a point like this on homosexuality. The DSM considered homosexuality as an abnormality up until 1973, when it was taken out as part of the DSM2. There is an excellent article from the National Institutes of Health of explaining that even back then there was a great debate of if it should have been taken out at all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4695779/.
      Yes back in the 70s and 80s being a gay witness was horrific, but honestly being gay period in that time period was horrific so you cannot just say that it was JWs. “

      • October 12, 2016 at 12:21 pm
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        Reply to Richard Oliver,

        In order to understand your position more clearly, please allow me to mirror back what I think I am hearing: you are an active Jehovahs Witness and also a homosexual. You accept that you were born that way and it was not a choice for you. So you are prepared to live the rest of your natural life (in this system) celibate, always being cautious that your relationship with other men does not arouse romantic feeings. You are looking forward to the time in the new system when God fixes you, making you heterosexual that is, because inherited a genetic predisposition that is flawed, much like someone who inherits any other genetic disorder.

        The reasoning above is the only way I can reconcile what you are telling me with what I know of the JW belief system (I was a ministerial servant & elder for over a decade, so I know the beief system well). Is the above a more or less correct assessment. If not, please help me to understand.

        WS

        • October 12, 2016 at 2:54 pm
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          Reply to Winston Smith from Richard Oliver:

          “You have it exactly correct. I am willing to live a celibate life unless at some point I become bisexual and are attracted to women as well. Some people believe sexuality is fluid and bisexuality is real, others do not, I guess I will have to see. Do I fully picture a real paradise that JWs teach, honestly I am not 100%. But what I do know is that I have lived as a gay man before and I found pain and heartache in that life. And as John has brought out before pain and heartache can happen anywhere, but I know for myself I am happier now than I was when I was living a life having gay sex and having boyfriends that I still truly love. But does that mean that I will always feel this way, no, but right now this is the way I feel and I have friends who are JWs who know and friends who are JWs that don’t know and I don’t see a difference in the way that either set treats me. “

      • October 12, 2016 at 2:23 pm
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        Richard Oliver. The Society doesn’t change it’s stance on homosexuality based on what is going on in the “worldly” community. They will always accept homosexuals in the congregation but they will never allow openly homosexual sex to go on and still be in good standing in the congregation. That is the official teaching of the JW religion. If you can find anything “current” to say anything different, I would like to see it for myself.

        As for anybody who “acts” gay or looks “gay”, they can’t “act” that way or look that way and go in service and say they are JW’s as their service time won’t be accepted.

        If you belong to a congregation where they don’t care one way or the other, then that is not the organization that I was in for the last 50 years.

        • October 12, 2016 at 3:00 pm
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          Reply to Caroline from Richard Oliver:

          “Response to Caroline:

          I was responding to the way that JWIntellect was using an old and outdated article from the Organization to show that homosexuality is a learned trait and that masturbation is the cause of homosexuality. I was stating that up until 1973 when the DSM-2 came out the mental health community still recognized homosexuality as an abnormal act and was an act that was thought to be taught not one that one was born with. And the link to the National Institutes of Health, showed that even when the DSM-2 came out and removed homosexuality as an abnormal activity there was still a huge debate within the mental health community. My point is not to use old and outdated information to make a point. 1973 was 43 years ago if you want a clear understanding and use something against the organization that use something recent. Because guess what religious people who want to speak ill of homosexuals use the DSM to prove that mental health professionals feel that homosexuality is wrong even though that was from 43 years ago. So use of outdated information runs both ways. “

          • October 12, 2016 at 3:33 pm
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            (Response from JW Intellect to Richard Oliver)

            “It seems as though the latter portion of my comment was just completely ignored or overlooked.

            I was not attempting to make any point regarding homosexuality, namely, that this is a learned behavior and is caused by masturbation. The only purpose the quote served was to demonstrate how such a view was once held by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (That is, if this belief has been unsubscribed to by the WTBTS).”

          • October 12, 2016 at 4:48 pm
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            to JW Intellect

            Note: this is the response from Richard Oliver to JW Intellect:

            “My statement was meaning if you have to look up a 43-year article to make your point it may not be the best point in the world. Especially when I bring out the fact that those same thoughts were put into the DSM all the way up until 1973 in the DSM-2. The DSM-2 didn’t come out and say homosexuality is not a mental disorder they just didn’t include it in the manual meaning they no longer accepted it as a recognizable item. Same thing with the article you brought up, it was the standard thought and were you expecting the organization to say that masturbation does not lead to homosexuality?”

          • October 12, 2016 at 7:55 pm
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            While it is true that the statement made by Watchtower linking masturbation and homosexuality is about 40 years old, I am unaware that they have ever updated their stance on this subject. When I faded almost 4 years ago the current teaching was that homosexuality was a learned behavior and a choice of lifestyle. I am unaware of anything published to the opposite effect.

            WS

  • October 11, 2016 at 10:36 pm
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    If you have to rely on some lawyer talk to defend you’re faith you are very sad indeed! Let’s just call a spade a spade! Jw’s don’t love or respect the gay community! They ex communicate and discriminate them. If you’re gay and born into a jw family, you can kiss your family and friends goodbye because you’ll never see them again!!! It’s spin room politics attempting to polish up a tarnished image. Pure discrimination under the cloak of so called “love”.

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