close-up_dinosaurs_turok_dinosaur_comics_tyrannosaurus_rex_desktop_1024x742_hd-wallpaper-991803You are eating dinosaur.

I was sitting next to a Palaeontologist in a chicken restaurant.

Look at the scales on the chicken’s leg, pure dinosaur. Did you know T.Rex had feathers?” asked Prof. Octávio Mateus, from the University of Nova de Lisboa.

He had been invited to speak to a regional Archeological group, in the Algarve, Portugal, about his life’s work. Professor Mateus had traveled the world to excavate the ancient extinct creatures that have captured our imaginations for over a hundred years: Dinosaurs.

I must admit, my knowledge of dinosaurs is quite limited. I have watched Jurassic Park, I know that children love dinosaurs, but my own childhood dinosaur memory is the front inside page of the green New World Translation of the Bible. The map of the world on the inside cover had a drawing of a dinosaur (not to scale) placed firmly in Africa. (Portugal is part of Tarshish on the map.)

 

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So what could an ex JW who knows very little about dinosaurs ask an internationally respected Palaeontologist? You got it!

“So err, were all the dinosaurs wiped out in a huge world-wide flood, you know, like the Bible says?”

“No,” he replied, “It was not one event that produced extinction but a process over millions of years. In the Algarve, it is was volcanic action and possible meteor strikes, but not a flood.”

I explained why I asked the question and how one particular organisation is certain that dinosaurs were wiped out in a global flood. I also told him I was looking forward to his presentation that would follow after lunch.

The man born in a dinosaur nest

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Professor Prof. Octávio Mateus

Prof. Octávio Mateus is an engaging, funny, enthusiastic teacher. I say teacher, not only because some of his students were in the audience, but because of how much I learned in the hour or so he spoke with the archeological club.

The Professor likes to say of himself “I was born in a dinosaur nest.” When one knows of the Professor’s history, his meaning becomes clear. Archeology is in his genes; his parents researched the Lourinhã Formation, a rich source of Portuguese fossils and dinosaur eggs.

The professor discussed with us the ancient geological periods in which the dinosaurs lived, the Triassic period (beginning 250 million years ago) then the Jurassic period (ending 150 million years ago), and ending with the Cretaceous period (ending 65 million years ago). Then he want on to tell us that parts of the Algarve region of Portugal are a rich source of dinosaur finds, such as a toothy 2-metre long Salamander; Metoposaurus algarvensis.

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About 210 million years ago, this beast swam and walked across the land very near to where I was sitting.

The research that uncovered Metoposaurus algarvensis was led by the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, with the collaboration of other institutions including the New University of Lisbon, the Lourinhã Museum Portugal and the universities of Edinburgh, Birmingham and the Museum of Natural History in Paris.

The results were written up in the Journal of Vertebrate Palaeontology and published in March 2015.

salamanderskullsImages of remains found in the Algarve excavation were displayed on the screen. They looked like two brown bumpy toilet seats. Paleoantologists believe that Metoposaurus algarvensis ate fish and became extinct due to volcanic eruptions and increasing lack of access to lakes and other bodies of water. The recent dig in 2014 found nine specimens of this kind of dinosaur in a four square metre area. The quantity and quality of this find bode well for even greater discoveries when the team return for a future dig.

While Prof. Mateus was presenting, I had some flashbacks of images. I recalled the Photo-Drama of Creation. I remembered images of the ark with dying dinosaurs.

In the week after Prof. Mateus’ talk, I Googled around some of the issues he raised with some questions. I discovered, joy upon joy, that at the same time as the 1914 Photo-drama of creation was wowing and converting, “Gertie, the Dinosaur,” was produced as one of the first animated films.

Created by Winsor McCay. It features the sauropod dinosaur Brontosaurus. (McCay also created Little Nemo, a weekly fantasy cartoon adventure).

The early  Bible Students / Russellites peddled a teaching in 1914 in the Photo-Drama of Creation, “that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7×7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch.”

 

Dinosaurs: What does Watchtower think?

Jehova's+Witnesses+Dinosaurs+Photodrama+of+CreationThe Photo-Drama of Creation was an early example of a multi-media presentation; combining as it did moving pictures, full colour slides and audio. It stands to this day as an impressive technological achievement for its era, but is also notable for being, shall we say, a less-than-scientifically-accurate account of the field in which Prof. Octávio Mateus has become such an expert.

In fact, scientifically speaking, it was a mess, peddling as it did Russell’s teaching “that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7×7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch.

Russell’s teaching put the age of the Earth at less than 49,000 years old, and thus radically shifted the age when the dinosaurs had roamed the Earth from hundreds of millions of years ago, to just a few thousand.

The Brooklyn Eagle newspaper said at the time that Pastor Russell’s “Advertising methods had already attracted a good deal of attention to himself, and while many referred to him as “the crank preacher of Allegheny,” his unusual lectures and effective publicity methods drew good-sized crowds to his Bible House on Arch Street.”

Russell told the audience who came to watch the photo-drama that, “these Christians were fortified against the creeping infidelity of the modernist movements.” Early converts lapped up Russell’s chronology and the “seven days” continued to be 49,000 literal years right up till fairly recently.

How recently?

Fellow Friday columnists, John and Jane Redwood sent me the text from the 1975 Awake, where Witnesses were assured of certain “facts.”

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Even as recently as 1982, Watchtower published artwork portraying a wrathful God destroying people, animals, insects….and dinosaurs.

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In 1982, I was already on my way out of the Watchtower religion. Yet I carried with me the instilled teaching of 7,000 year creative days and of 6,000 years of man’s existence. Of course over the years, those beliefs have been eroded. I think I may have caught a rerun of “When dinosaurs roamed the Earth” on the Discovery Channel.

But I wonder what old time JW’s make of the time scales and the changes in teaching?

In recent years they have become very vague on the subject, seemingly unwilling to engage with the question of the age of the dinosaurs, but tacitly appearing to admit that their age was far greater than had previously been stated.

Now, it’s true to state that Watchtower is not the only organisation contesting the accepted scientific view of the age of this planet, and of the flora and fauna that have existed upon it. Today, many other religions and groups raise similar objections to the findings of these scientists

But Watchtower is notorious for demanding extreme actions from its followers that these other organisations mostly do not, such as the denial of life saving treatment, the forgoing of higher eduction, and the covering up of child abuse. On top of this, it demands that its followers never question any of its teachings on pain of shunning. An organisation demanding that amount of blind loyalty needs to have a flawless track record in the accuracy of its teachings to maintain any credibility at all.

Dinosaurs: What does an expert think?

65978.adapt.768.1I sent the quote from the 1975 Awake and the image from the 1982 Creation book to Prof. Octávio Mateus and asked if he would be willing to comment in reference to this teaching.

He said,

The image and text attached is misleading because it mixes facts and leads to wrong conclusions. Most, but not all, sedimentary rocks are deposited as sand, silt, mud, gravel or clay transported by water or carbonated precipitated in the ocean. Less common, the sediments are transported by wind. Therefore, most fossils are indeed remains of animals covered by sediments being water-transported by river, lakes, or seas. However, this does not mean there was any flood.

Moreover, in the case of desert animals, fossil-bearing sedimented were wind-transported. In those cases, the death and fossilisation did not involve any water. Stratigraphy shows that fossils are a natural consequence of animals being covered by sediment and petrified during the course of millions of years. We have an enormous amount of evidence showing that earth is billions of years old.

Watchtower would probably say, “well yes, we now admit the earth is older than 42,000 years and counting. It is just man that has been around for 6,000 years.”

Yet this is not the point.

The point is: When Watchtower finally admitted that the Earth was far older than 42,000 years old, this was not as a result of divine revelation, or some deeper understanding of the scriptural text. It was as a direct result of the scientific evidence being so overwhelming that Watchtower had to back down.

The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.

That should tell you something.

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Links

Live Science.com article on Professor Octávio Mateus and his team uncovering the remains of Metoposaurus algarvensis. 

Dinosaurs – What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe?

172 thoughts on “The Friday Column: Watchtower and Dinosaurs

  • February 4, 2016 at 5:39 pm
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    My family member, baptised in 1978 must have been terribly confused. When I asked questions about fossils,
    mammoth and dinosaurs skeletons and dates accredited to them by science, I was told they were not real but put there by satan to fool us all.
    Quite recently that changed to, “Oh, they were there to
    be vacuum cleaners for the land to be ready for humans.
    Some in authority must have quoted that but I cannot see where that fits in.

    • February 6, 2016 at 10:02 am
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      “When I asked questions about fossils,
      mammoth and dinosaurs skeletons and dates accredited to them by science, I was told they were not real but put there by satan to fool us all.”

      Thisresponse is canned and used by evangelicals in many different groups. Most JW logic states that a massive flood wiped out the dinos, as article indicates, and that the footprints in “water sediments” proves this.

      However, what JW Creation story doesn’t embrace or address is the “ice age” phenomenon–the continent “bouncing back” from thousands of years of bearing weight of ice coverage and other “evidence”. The JW story goes that the large out-of-place boulders along the northern hemisphere are there by flood not by ice age glaciers or runoff from ice-melt. Either way, evolution jumps in to explain a limit set of animals boarded on an “ark” evolving into multiple species around the globe.

      And, until recently, it was difficult to find scientists who had stitched the biologic, geologic, and astronomic evolution stories into a cohesive narrative. That has changed. And, scientific method is one of examine this, theory, test, discover, examine, theory, test, and repeat until a new discovery alters the theory.

      The Watchtower tries to use this latter method as its “truth discovery” explanation for changes, but spirit and faith assuming an all-knowing deity versus secular science using deductive mind.

      The interesting thing is that science and paleontology DO explain a common cultural narrative of a cataclysmic flood event as either emerging from a common culture — some speculate civilizations may have been more advanced than evidence in stone presents. And, here’s why–in our own civilized word, we have moved progressively from chiseled stone documents to papyrus to paper and now to digital formats. As we have moved forward, the media recording events becomes outmoded and impossible to decipher on new devices unless it is converted–audio, films, speeches, etc.

      During the “Dark Ages” knowledge of advanced civilizations such as Rome (building aquaducts, etc) seemed lost until recovered with Arab invasion. So, the history of humanity that seems to end with Biblical flood back to creation may not be the final story.

  • February 4, 2016 at 6:00 pm
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    This one is marginally amusing. No one was there so everyone is guessing about dinosaurs. Some people will say it disproves the bible, others not so. The WT stepped outside their bailiwick with this and have got themselves in a tangle, but they have done what everyone else has done:- guessed and fudged. Enjoy the fact that the bones and other artifacts have been discovered. Kids love them and I do as well, but definitive statements over when they were here are just guesses.
    Arguments over woolly mammoths and friends seems exhausting for naught. Hope next Friday’s topic will be more relevant.

    • February 4, 2016 at 6:21 pm
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      The point surely being that an Organisation caught fudging and guessing, whilst simultaneously refusing to allow questioning of its teachings under pain of shunning, is an organisation to be very cautious of.

      Moderators note: I’m disinclined to allow arguments in the thread over discussions of evolution, either for or against. The JW Survey writer makes her point and presents the facts as she and others see it, and people can take or leave them. There are countless other forums online to have this argument, please seek them out and get stuck in.

      The main point of this article is that Watchtower refuses to allow criticism over doctrines that it later has to back away from. What was once apostasy is now acknowledged truth. That is fair game for discussion.

      As always, I will be as reasonable as possible, but don’t make me moderate.

      You wouldn’t like me when I moderate.

      • February 5, 2016 at 6:20 am
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        That individual may or may not be trying to dust off the ingrained programming of the “were always right mentality”
        Folks like that find it hard to think outside the box.

      • February 5, 2016 at 9:35 am
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        Covert, would you please get over yourself? Let people talk about whatever they want – as long as the discussion does not get vulgar or nasty. You are OVER-moderating – and it’s really getting annoying.

        • February 5, 2016 at 11:10 am
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          I agree with Saurus. These are all theories that change with time. They have in the past. Constantly. If we can’ say what we want, then this blog has lost its charm. The Watchtower does not let anyone have opinions that don’t exactly coincide with theirs.
          I hope you don’t start that trend by “moderating” left and right.

          • February 5, 2016 at 11:43 am
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            My point is that this site maintains a “zero evangelism” ethos in the comments.

            As I said, I’m happy to be reasonable, but I am aware this issue is a hot-button topic for many people and I do not want the comments to get side-tracked into any slanging matches from either side. Rarely have I seen this discussion go anywhere but angry chaos when conducted online.

            However, having considered things, and given the nature of the article, I’m prepared to extend the benefit of the doubt.

            Feel free to have the evolution/creation/age of the earth and dinosaurs debate.

            I will allow it as long as I feel it’s conducted in a positive spirit and relies on facts and reasoning. Ad Hominim will get you deleted, logical reasoning will get you applauded.

          • February 5, 2016 at 11:46 am
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            Oh, yes. “he will allow it”. Power trip, anyone? I don’t seem to remember Cedars coming on here every day telling us what he will “allow”. He only jumped in every so often to stop some hard-core weirdos. Covert seems to be “moderating” every comment. Just to let us know we’re getting close to being moderated – someone really has way too much time on their hands.

          • February 5, 2016 at 5:11 pm
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            I think CF has been pretty level headed with the moderation. We had a forum start to derail a couple weeks ago and although one commenter had to be blocked because he was verbally attacking the other comenters, I think CF was pretty lenient with the group. I think CF is just trying to be proactive on what by nature can be a pretty heated topic.

            WS

          • February 5, 2016 at 6:09 pm
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            I try to keep in mind this Site is called JWsurvey. I’m here to help expose the Watchtower Snakes, not to evangelize, or to argue pro-Creation or pro-Evolution. & if attacking people is ur thing, I hear they’re having a lot of trouble with a gang called ISIS over there in the Middle East. Anyone with anger issues could have a field day over there. Make urself useful. Maybe come back with some Medals!

      • February 5, 2016 at 8:17 pm
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        New moderator flexing muscle and posting a threat — “You wouldn’t like me when I moderate.” How disrespectful to the readership can you get? No class.

        I have not seen that behavior here before, and I’ve been reading for some time.

        And since when does “evangelizing” include opinions about dinos and archeology. I understood the “no evangelizing” rule to mean trying to convert others with religious doctrine.

        Don’t ruin JW Survey, Covert Fade.

        • February 6, 2016 at 12:41 am
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          Re: “U wouldn’t like me when I moderate.” – I did not find that disrespectful. Thought it was kinda funny actually. From the old “Hulk” TV series, right? (Bill Bixby)
          Frankly, I don’t see what u guys r griping about. I’ve seen plenty of leeway here. What amazingly shocking thing do u have to share that u’re afraid might get deleted? LOL Unless u’re just trying to start a debate for its own sake, or perhaps to divert energy & attention from the actual purpose of this Site.
          Cheers :)

          • February 6, 2016 at 12:44 am
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            PS If u consider “U wouldn’t like me when I moderate” to b a “threat”, u need to get out more.

          • February 6, 2016 at 5:16 pm
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            You’re unfounded inferences into my post speak volumes about you. :)

        • February 6, 2016 at 7:18 pm
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          Enuffsenuff is my husband. I read here nearly every day. But I agree that the new Moderator has overstepped his position and become and Elder again. So what if we didn’t find Susanna’s article particularly enthralling. I have sent two (2) complaints to JWSurvey at contact us, and neither one have been acknowledged. I am very disappointed and will stop reading these articles if the heavy handed threats continue. Two things that upset me tremendously are “You wouldn’t like me when I moderate.” and telling readers to get lost as in “There are countless other forums online to have this argument, please seek them out and get stuck in.”

    • February 4, 2016 at 7:19 pm
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      `Hope next Friday’s topic will be more relevant.’
      It’s that sort of mental approach to a well presented point that causes people to be so closed minded that they fall sucker to cults.
      What could be more relevant than the fact that in so many JW doctrines and policies they have been proven wrong or have had to, or seen fit to come up with `new light’, and therefore the argument in the piece above, that any person or group of persons that claim to be guided and directed by the god of the bible, `needs to have a flawless track record in the accuracy of its teachings to maintain any credibility at all.’
      And as the piece states, in the case of JW’s GB, where extreme blind faith is demanded from followers, much more needs to be demanded by the followers in return.
      Sound arguments that go straight over the heads of no thinking folk.

  • February 4, 2016 at 6:25 pm
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    While I fully agree with your conclusion (“The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.”), I do think you should have mentioned the Awake of 1990 about dinosaurs.

    You wrote: “By 1990, the 42,000 years were viewed as symbolic, but the Watchtower still held onto the belief that the remaining dinosaurs were wiped out during a global flood, 4300 years ago or so.”

    That’s not true.

    What the Awake said in 1990 (2/8) was this: “The book A Vanished World: The Dinosaurs of Western Canada states that “all of the 11 major kinds of dinosaurs . . . ceased to exist in the western interior at about the same time.” This, and the fact that human bones have not been found with dinosaur bones, is why most scientists conclude that the Age of Dinosaurs ended before humans came on the scene… When the dinosaurs had fulfilled their purpose, God ended their life. But the Bible is silent on how he did that or when.”

    In the article they did doubt dating methods, “especially so when we consider that the Flood of Noah’s day over 4,300 years ago brought enormous changes in the atmosphere and on earth.”

    But in 1990 they did not held onto the belief that the flood wiped out the dinosaurs.

    • February 4, 2016 at 11:13 pm
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      Thanks for bringing this up Michael.

  • February 4, 2016 at 7:42 pm
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    Good stuff, more please…

  • February 4, 2016 at 8:03 pm
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    PERfect!

  • February 4, 2016 at 8:12 pm
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    The Watchtower Trickery Society always insists the ENTIRE bible be taken seriously, & literally (except for Revelation), yet they “cherry pick” whatever scientific ‘evidence’ suits their dogma, & reject whatever does not. Classic “tail wagging the dog” behavior.

    • February 4, 2016 at 9:32 pm
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      All of Revelation is symbolic EXCEPT for 144000 that part is literal!

      • February 4, 2016 at 11:00 pm
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        Ha!

  • February 4, 2016 at 10:03 pm
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    For those interested, the Bible map with the dinosaur in Africa made its appearance on the inside cover of the one-volume edition of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures for the first time in its 1961 revision. So far as I could ascertain by flipping through the pages while consulting my first edition copies, there was no picture of a dinosaur on any of the maps in the first edition. At one of the links above, the article at the end of one of the links reads:

    “The inside cover of the original New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, depicts a dinosaur living with post-flood humans in North Africa.”

    That claim is incorrect. Minor point that doesn’t detract much overall from either the linked article or from the article above. I only mention it in the interest of accuracy.

  • February 4, 2016 at 11:22 pm
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    science (n.)
    mid-14c., “what is known, knowledge (of something) acquired by study; information;” also “assurance of knowledge, certitude, certainty,” from Old French science “knowledge, learning, application; corpus of human knowledge” (12c.), from Latin scientia “knowledge, a knowing; expertness,”
    Science is about what is KNOWN, not what is assumed, believed, or wished for. Facts. Yet, when the facts don’t mesh with dogma, Watchtower simply ignores them. Deny, deny, deny. Just keep ur eyes on the puppet show.

    • February 5, 2016 at 7:36 am
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      Also Science invites you to study its conclusions using ALL information you can aquire… it asks you to ffill your mind with as much factual knowlege as possible and then draw your conclusions… you can queation,research and dig to your hearts content and if a Scientific acceptepted fact is proven dubious or down right wrong .. you can challenge it using solid evidence without having the vengeance of God called down upon you.
      To me this Friday Column was very relavent and informative… everything I was taught in Science lesson in school was debunked when I got home… I have sort of always believed in Evolution in some form…at least I could ask questions in school…at home if I questioned the teachings at the Kingdom Hall…I was punished… thank you for this weeks column and the sincere effort you put into it…it means a lot to most of us.

      • February 5, 2016 at 4:31 pm
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        How true. I don’t believe there has ever been a Scientific Inquisition – scientists running around burning people at the stake who didn’t believe their theories.

        • February 6, 2016 at 12:54 pm
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          I strongly disagree. While there may not be an horrific tying to stake and setting afire or torture, in academia and science community, if a scientist holds onto views that are disproven or theories that seem “outrageous” he or she can find their career stalled. No invitations to lecture, no professor chairs, no invites to publish. Some who suffered this fate have had their theories proven “right” in later years. Quantum physics being one area where what seems far-fetched one decade is “hot research” the next.

          Science does have its own “priesthood” in sanctioning what can be published and taught, but it is based on research, and repeatable experiments. If evidence gives the slightest suggestion that a theory is proven, that member of the community is applauded. If a theory is not yet proven, it gets published but simmers on back burners until some one re-discovers it and brings it new life.

          In its current incarnation, the Watchtower does not sanction such broad play with “truth”. You may read your bible, quietly compose an article of theories and speculations, mail it to HQ, but return to your seat and sit there until HQ plagiarizes it or dissects and reinvents it as its own. For explanation, see the footnote, “we are the Gov Body and we run this joint–even if Jehovah Made This Whole Joint For You” (yep, a long ways for another insert–enjoy…)

          https://youtu.be/_GmBclph0jI

      • February 5, 2016 at 4:42 pm
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        I always found Science classes far more fascinating (& useful) than any religious dogma I ever learned. If those idiots really want to learn about God, they should study physics, chemistry, biology, watch Nature & Science & Astronomy documentaries on TV, Netflix, YouTube, etc, etc, etc. I recommend Cosmos with Neil deGrasse Tyson. How ’bout the good ol’ Public Library? When I was growing up, we actually used to read books. I know. Mind-blowing.
        The Truth is out there.

        • February 5, 2016 at 5:24 pm
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          Case in point: Sir Isaac Newton was one of the foremost scientific minds of the millennium. This, even though he was a devout bible student and published (posthumously) his analysis of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

          Science is self-correcting. It keeps questioning so called facts and if it finds they are errant, rejects them. Most religion assumes from the start that it is inerrant (due to professed divine revelation) and refuses to change even when all the evidence is 180 degrees opposed to its teachings.

          I once had a young Witness lad tell me, “I used to be really into learning about dinosaurs, but stopped learning about them because don’t know if they really existed.” WTF? What crazy JW zealot put that thought in his head? I don’t think the watchtower even said that. I do recall that they claimed that all dinosaurs were herbivorous although everything we have learned in nature tells us how to spot a carnivore.

          WS

          • February 5, 2016 at 5:27 pm
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            Rule #1: My religion is always right.

            Rule #2: If my religion is shown to be wrong, no matter how overwhelming the evidence, see Rule #1.

            It’s not just the JWs. Many of the world’s religions have this attitude.

            WS

          • February 7, 2016 at 3:30 pm
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            Check the depth of a t.rex tooth would it hold in a bit to a stegasaur collar?
            Big animals can’t move fast, they can overheat.

          • February 7, 2016 at 9:26 pm
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            Here’s a good article on T-Rex feeding habits: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_behaviour_of_Tyrannosaurus

            No indication that stegosaur was on the menu, although triceratops might have been. There is some consideration giving to whether the T-Rex was a pure predator or also a scavenger. May be some evidence of cannibalism as well

            WS

  • February 4, 2016 at 11:22 pm
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    Thanks Susannah for your article.
    It was enjoyable to read kind a refreshing its bring me to my school year.
    Logical connection to the fact that WT and GB doesn’t allow freedom of thinking neither in reasonable extend returning to them as boomerang. It’s damaging and counterproductive.
    The days are numbered for them in form as we knew and know them now.
    MENE MENE TEKEL IN PARSIN
    peace and nice weekend to all

  • February 5, 2016 at 1:55 am
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    Hi an interesting subject to ponder this week thanks. Back in the bad old days before I was leaving school I really wanted to study geology but always knew there was a conflict with watchtower speak so did not pursue that line of interest. I still find it amazing how they discover new things about the earth and the history of the planet each year. I still don’t know how old things are or why the dinos died but what I do know is the WT do not know everything and prehistory is not their business. Seeing as they are guardians of doctrine they should stick to guessing god’s new light and change of plan rather than tell us how old the earth and rocks are. Is their modus operandi not future, future and everlasting future? so no point in pontificating on past events, leave that to the clever science buffs who are in the field and actually know what they are talking about.Ruthlee

    • February 5, 2016 at 4:48 pm
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      Nice.

    • February 5, 2016 at 5:30 pm
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      And geologists make beau coup bucks. Starting pay for a geologist right out of college with a masters degree is about $120,000 per year in the US.

      WS

      • February 5, 2016 at 6:20 pm
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        Point the way to those rocks!!!!!!!!!!

  • February 5, 2016 at 1:57 am
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    When did the WTS state that the 42,000 yrs were symbolic? I was always under the impression they were considered literal.

    • February 5, 2016 at 2:21 am
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      Good question. I am checking this. My understanding is that they moved away from the 42,000 years as a literal time period.

  • February 5, 2016 at 4:24 am
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    Hello All,
    My words were written without a lot of consideration. simply because I did not expect them to go through. I have tried before and they disappeared into the ether.
    My thoughts are that dinosaurs are very relevant to a well rounded history of the world, no matter when they arrived or left and a fascinating subject. They are awesome.
    My family member is very dear to me, otherwise I would not be here. The confusion she lives with, a very kind, very gentle person is reprehensible to me.

    However the reason I am happy to finally be here on this site is because I want to congratulate you all. Tell you what stars you are and let you know that all over the world other groups such as yours are daring to rise up and shine. Different subjects, same dynamics.
    My own awakening to a terrible injustice was in 2009,along with many others we are working towards the same objective. “Truth”.” The lovers of a lie” are being cornered everywhere. This “mission” brings pain and grief as you will all be aware. In my experience the intensity does bring on disagreements and splits, which is unfortunate.
    But the truly steadfast remain.We are what we have been waiting for.
    Cheers from NZ.

    • February 5, 2016 at 7:37 am
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      Hi Lynaire,

      Many in the USA where I am from say, “Freedom isn’t free.” You must defend the freedom you have and it comes at a price. Just like any tyrant, the WTBTS, GB, and power hungry elders will do just about anything to have total control over your life, stemming from lust for power or just plain delusion. That’s the difference between a religion vs. a destructive cult. A religion tries to spiritually guide you, but a cult will try to take control of every part of your life, including your life.

      Freedom of mind does come at a cost of conflict, but remember that you also can be a beacon of happiness and freedom for those still trapped in this power hungry organization. ‘You can attract a lot more bees with honey than with vinegar’ as the old saying goes. Defend your God-given freedom of mind and spirit, but do so in a way that can spread that gift to others. Read some of Steven Hassan’s books on mind control cults.

      Best of luck to you.

      • February 5, 2016 at 4:53 pm
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        U can attract a lot more flies with honey too. Unfortunately, flies seem to prefer sh*t, which makes our job even more challenging. lol

        • February 5, 2016 at 5:33 pm
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          @A4
          LOL

          WS

    • February 5, 2016 at 4:57 pm
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      @ Lynaire

      “All over the world other groups such as yours are daring to rise up & shine”

      — Long Live The Fifth Column!!!

      • February 5, 2016 at 5:35 pm
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        And long live the Brotherhood of Goldstein! LOL

        WS

      • February 7, 2016 at 4:44 am
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        @Anonymous 4
        -Long Live the Fifth Column!!!
        Really! What part of a true statement “All over the world other groups such as yours
        are daring to rise up and shine”, do you perceive as a threat”. Do you want to be the only group”. Do you fear that somehow they will undermine your cause?
        I do realise that fear and your diet of hate mail passed on to you as spiritual food by your loving leaders, has had the effect of freezing your brain, but please come back! In your absenteeism, real people, brave and courageous ones, stepped up for you. They are definitely not subversive, don’t worry they will not send spies into your little world or harm you in any way, they are far too busy. It is a big wide world out there, and I am sorry it is so scary for you.
        They do number in tens of millions but you are safer than you have ever been. The really “good news” and one you will understand is that one day they will start to overlap and we will all be in for a pleasant suprise!
        Cheers.

        • February 7, 2016 at 9:20 am
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          @ Lynaire
          I am not sure I understand your argumentation. Per Wikipedia: “A fifth column is any group of people who undermine a larger group—such as a nation or a besieged city—from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine.”

          I think A4 sees JWSurvey as such a group in relation to the Watchtower Society. I do not understand your objection or even if it should be taken as one.

          WS

          • February 7, 2016 at 9:10 pm
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            @ Winstone Smith

            Thank you for the correction.You know, before I sent that post away, I knew that I would be red faced and regretful come the dawn.But I did it anyway? So illogical. I did puzzle over it a long time, trying to equate what these groups had to do with traitors and spies and covert actions. Really never giving the JW actions a thought, even though it was their forum.But in the end I saw what I wanted to see and apologies to all. More so to A4 whose kindness and restraint in simply ignoring me is priceless.
            My delusion was that I was professing solidarity, others have your back, you are not alone, all that kind of encouragement. The reality of what I was not saying is this, “Look, I acknowledge you as a valid and valuable uprising and I do support you. But don’t ever think that yours will ever compare with mine,it’s not possible, and I am going to tell you why!”Pure ego,which just happens to have ruined the world I vow to protect.
            It is not even about JWSurvey. It is about my sister and I. My lesson to learn.Those words were arrows meant for her heart.. Namaste.

  • February 5, 2016 at 6:13 am
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    Nicely written and interesting. Thanks for your insight

  • February 5, 2016 at 7:39 am
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    When I came into the Borg. One of the questions I asked was about the dinosaurs. I was shown the scripture in Genesis that God created the great sea monsters.. enough said. God created them, they were there, he destroyed them in the flood….. I remember being given an old Awake, I think it was and on the front it had a dinosaur…. Something just seemed off. Anyways I was caught up in it by then and whatever was said seemed to be backed up so I left it alone.

    Now I have a very inquisitive Granddaughter who loves dinosaurs and we would visit a great store in town that sold fossils and gem stones. I bought her book after book on the subject and noticed that not many others at the hall shared our enthusiasm…. You see, we were looking at facts. We were looking outside the golden box and as a 6 year old does, questions were being asked and Grandma was looking for answers – real answers. Do you know how much fun it is to hold dino poo and gross out a 6 year old bah ha ha.

    That being said, now I have faded and the fairy tales are being dismissed I am grateful for articles like this Susannah. Think I’ll go watch Jurassic Park again :) BTW a velociraptor isn’t half as big as they show them in the movie….. I saw the fossils lol.

    • February 5, 2016 at 5:07 pm
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      Interesting. Now, if the “Flood” destroyed all the dinosaurs, wouldn’t the ocean-borne dinos have survived – the great “sea monsters” like Shastasaurus & Ichthyosaurus? My brain hurts. Oh, Watchtower, please relieve me by brainwashing me with ur answer. LOL
      PS I’m really not that smart. Just Googled those crazy Dino names. lol

      • February 5, 2016 at 5:50 pm
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        But we do have great sea monsters! we have Lochness Monster – Nessie, Big Blue and Okanagan Monster – Ogopogo…. I know that because I watched the X Files. All of them could be Plesiosaurs… :P

  • February 5, 2016 at 7:55 am
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    The age of Earth is disconnected from 42.000 years doctrine. There is a “Question from readers” article in early ’90, where they restate their literal interpretation of 7.000 years duration of a creation day, but they didn’t teach long before ’75 that earth was CREATED before 48.000 years before. That’s just when the creation days started, the Earth was already there. That’s why they still refer to the start of life taking place “thousands of years before” (but never millions). The 7.000 years duration of a creation day is still alive, although last time explicitly stated some decades before.

    • February 5, 2016 at 5:16 pm
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      Good point. Been some confusion there, I think. JWs concede that Planet Earth itself has been around for millions or even billions of years; the 48000-yr thing applies only to creation UPON Earth.
      PS Ricky Gervais points out that the Genesis account states that God created the Heavens & the Earth, then said, “Let there be light.” So He created Earth in the dark. Impressive.

  • February 5, 2016 at 8:22 am
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    Great article – I also loved the reference to the dinosaur in the green NWT. I always remembered that oddity. Also did anyone just notice the two wooly mammoths in the My Book of Bible Stories book. The illustration seems to imply that the two missed the boat. I never once picked up on that. Kind of like the painter wanted to say “See? They missed the boat hence why those animals don’t exist anymore.” Such nonsense. I also remember JW’s stating that the flood somehow was linked to the ice age. All speculation of course – and we would get all the answers in paradise.

    I will always remember in 2007 I was in Chicago and toured a history museum. They had a very large expo on the history of the earth starting from the beginning until now. I remember walking through it as a JW and my brain was just firing all over the place because they had fossils and proof of how old these things were. And we are talking millions upon millions of years before even the dinosaurs! All I wanted to see were the dinosaurs – yet I had to walk through endless history backed by science and facts that led me to the same conclusion. If evolution wasn’t real how else could one explain all this? You don’t get a Dog from a trilobite. At least not over night lol!

    Great article. And Jurassic Park is still amazeballs.

  • February 5, 2016 at 9:41 am
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    Incredible how all the dinosaurs of the world, including those in the southern hemisphere (South America, Australia, Antarctica) all died in the flood, but so many other smaller, weaker animals of South America (Galapagos), Australia, and Madagascar, survived.

    I recall as a Witness, a question that would occasionally come up was: Will Jehovah bring back dinosaurs during the 1,000 year reign? That question sounds preposterous to me now, but at the time I remember thinking “I hope so!” Now I know the only hope of dinosaurs (the non-bird version) returning is through science and cloning. Science is making advances in leaps and bounds, while the JW religion is gradually going the way of the fossils.

  • February 5, 2016 at 10:30 am
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    The WTS still believes in thousands of years. You will never hear them say millions.

    It has been becoming evident in the last 20 years or so that there has been some major catastrophe about 10,000 years ago that has overwhelmed the Solar System. The problem is, is that mainstay scientist’s do not want to admit it. Careers are involved.

    Thus we have uniformitarianism and catastrophism. If catastrophism is correct then how the dating is assigned is incorrect.

    A good place to start in what might have happened. are the following two links.

    http://www.thunderbolts.info
    http://www.ancientdestructions.com

  • February 5, 2016 at 12:00 pm
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    The February Awake on JW.org says the following re: timing.

    https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no1-2016-february/facts-about-jehovah-witness/

    We believe that God created everything. But we do not agree with many who believe in creationism. Why not? Because a number of creationists’ ideas conflict with the Bible. For example, some assert that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour days. But the word “day” in the Bible can refer to a considerable length of time. (Genesis 2:4; Psalm 90:4) Then, too, some creationists teach that the earth is just a few thousand years old. However, the Bible indicates that the earth and the universe existed long before the six days of creation. 1—Genesis 1:1.

    The footnote says:
    1. For that reason, we have no objection—as do some creationists—to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old.

    So there’s acknowledgment to the earth being “billions of years old”.

    • February 5, 2016 at 9:26 pm
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      I seem to recall that the JWs (along with other creationist religions) want to discount carbon dating and geological findings. One of the arguments I recall is that the flood changed the carbon content of the world therefore carbon dating is inaccurate. The flood is also blamed for skewing the geological findings. So it seems to be that the flood is the reason our science cannot find geological evidence for the flood. How’s that for circular reasoning?

      They accept geology and carbon dating when it suits them, but dismiss it when it interferes with their theology.

      WS

  • February 5, 2016 at 2:01 pm
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    Great article, thanks!
    Powerful conclusion as well.

    “The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.”

    I will keep that one in mind…

  • February 5, 2016 at 2:05 pm
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    Interesting article, Susannah. Thank you.

    Could anyone explain to me, why the Hunters on this planet have their eyes fixed firmly in the front of their heads… and the prey, always have their eyes at the side.

    Did a loving god make them that way, to kill and be killed or did it take millions of years of Survival of the fittest to end up that way? Just curious.

    • February 5, 2016 at 5:30 pm
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      It’s anyone’s guess. I tend to believe God set everything (Evolution, whatever) in motion (like with a Big Bang). The rest is History. I suppose if there is a God, & He really wanted us to know, He would just come out & tell us, maybe remind us every couple thousand years or so, instead of having us rely on age-old accounts that don’t make much sense or jive with proven facts. Maybe we’re not meant to know everything. God is a Mystery.

      • February 5, 2016 at 9:34 pm
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        I think that using our deductive reasoning, which was endowed to us by our Creator, to find answers to these questions is the sum total of the human experience.

        Our ancestors wanted the same answers but lacked the tools to find them. So they postulated and guessed the best they could. They came up with a model of the known universe that suited their needs back then. But as their knowledge grew those old models had to be updated or discarded in favor of new, better ones. Over the next century, the models we currently use may need to be discarded in favor of better ones.

        WS

        • February 5, 2016 at 11:58 pm
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          I just hope someone finds a way around the speed-of-light-speed-limit, so we can start doing the Star Trek thing for real. lol

          • February 6, 2016 at 5:36 am
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            I think humanity will eventually figure out the secret to interstellar travel. Hey, we eventually have to get off this rock before the sun goes supernova. But I don’t know if we will see it in our lifetime.

            WS

          • February 6, 2016 at 8:04 am
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            Turns out Einstein was wrong and there is no speed of light limit. His thought experiments are not real experiments.

            Quantum Mechanics has proven that there appears to be a universal time that is in sync with the entire universe instantaneously.

            Do a google search on Quantum Entanglement.

            Also NASA is researching a Sub-Light Drive. It was originally poo-pooed but after the Chinese proved the concept works, they have jumped onboard.

          • February 6, 2016 at 8:05 am
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            Actually, what’s faster than the speed of light is “thinking” about getting from Point A to Point B.

            IMHO

            dogstar

          • February 6, 2016 at 8:20 am
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            There is an amazing book called The Hunt for Zero Point by Nick Cook. I couldn’t put it down. This guys search for truth is compelling. Takes you back to the Nazi’s using Jews for anti gravity experiments and then the whole cover up by them and the US raid on the war bunker where all this was going on. Of course they tried to hush it all up. Nick Cook used to work for Jane’s so is a reputable journalist.

          • February 6, 2016 at 9:48 am
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            Rock on anonymous: Can’t wait for the birth of Zefran Cochrane…maybe I will be around to see his birth.

            We will find out the answer to many of our questions when he makes first contact!

    • February 6, 2016 at 11:02 pm
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      How about sharks ? I’m sure he see ahead like horse….But your question is valid.Some predators in nature are well equip and design in order to kill.Some humans included with their sicko killer brain :-(

  • February 5, 2016 at 2:15 pm
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    > I sent the quote from the 1974 Awake and the image from the 1982 Creation book to Prof. Octávio Mateus

    I sent the quote from the 1975 Awake…

    • February 5, 2016 at 2:24 pm
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      Thanks for picking that up. It will be changed.

    • February 6, 2016 at 12:56 am
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      @Susannah:

      Thus we find the seventh “day” of the creative week to be seven thousand years long. On the basis of the length of the seventh “day” it is therefore reasonable to conclude that each of the other six “days” also was a period of 7,000 years.
      –Watchtower 2/15/1970 p.120

  • February 5, 2016 at 2:30 pm
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    I am not, nor have ever been a Jehovah’s Witness but I am a Christian. I do not believe in evolution. A chicken is a chicken not a “terrible lizard” as that is what the word “dinosaur” means. In short, it is not a reptile.

    The Bible teaches that God created vegetable, bird, animal and fish life according to their “genus” or kinds.

    God created the world perfect but death came into the world through Adam’s sin (by the way science has proven through DNA that all mankind comes from just one couple). The whole of creation groans and travails awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. In other words the resurrection and the New heavens and earth that God will create.

    I believe this because it has been revealed to me by God in the Holy Bible not because some JW organisation of men or for that matter some professor has said so.

    • February 5, 2016 at 3:25 pm
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      I also enjoy the store of a traveler from the heavens who came to earth. He was good with kids and was capable of healing those hurt. He died only to rise again in white and return to the heavens. His name? E.T. the Extraterrestrial.

      Just as plausible but far more entertaining.
      *cheers*

    • February 5, 2016 at 4:12 pm
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      @LEVI MATTHEUS, I don’t believe for one minute that you are not a Jehovah’s Witness and never have been by the way your comment went. It sounds like it’s straight out of Watchtower.

      You say that you “believe” what you are saying because God of the Holy Bible revealed to you through the Bible and that what the Bible says about the beginning of life and the earth is how it really happened.

      I have given it a lot of thought too and I “believe” that the story of Adam and Eve and the serpent and the Garden of Eden and the eating of the tree of good and bad and the tree of life is an allegory, in explaining to ancient people why humans know right from wrong and because of that, they realize that they will die in the end.

      I believe it’s a story or an allegory explaining the difference between animals and people because animals don’t know the difference between right and wrong and even though they don’t want to die and they run to escape death (in the wild or squirrels crossing the road) they don’t think about getting old and getting sick or how they will die like humans do.

      I don’t take the story of Adam and Eve or the flood as literal but the Watchtower does so if you take the Bible for what it “really” says, God created the earth and all that it’s in it in 6 “days”.

      What the Watchtower religion and other religions do is to take the Bible and explain it away because anybody with an ounce of brains realizes that the earth and all that’s in it, could not have been “created” in 6 literal days.

      I have the old Watchtower evolution book from 1967 and it went on and on about how unreliable carbon dating was to disprove what scientists were saying about how old the Cambrian layer was. I was stupid enough in those days to buy all that “explaining” away what scientists were saying about how old the earth and the fossils were.

      I didn’t question it then because it never would have dawned on me in a million years that the Watchtower makes up stuff to fool the foolish of the world and I was really foolish to think that I had just happened on the real “true” religion, out of all the religions of the world and that the Watchtower was above lying to me. I bought it hook line and sinker just as their latest renditions of trying to disprove evolution.

      Now I realize that when it comes to greed and power, that no organization is exempt, including the Watchtower.

      When you say that God created the world perfect, I am assuming you are talking about human beings too? Why would God create the man’s penis with a foreskin on it, only to be chopped off at birth, like there’s something wrong with it? Don’t you think it serves a useful purpose? It seems to me that if God created the penis with a foreskin on it, then that’s the way a penis should be and why should it be chopped off? Why would God require it since he made it that way in the first place?

      Can you explain why the foreskin should be chopped off to be pleasing to Jehovah?

      • February 5, 2016 at 5:54 pm
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        Owwwww. Which reminds me of another quick question. OK, suppose Mr. & Mrs. Adam screwed up, ate from the naughty tree, & therefore all their offspring get f***ed. So Jesus comes to die for us – right? – to buy us back with his life – to DIE, right??? OK, WTF is up with all the suffering & brutality? Why was he scourged (watch clips of Passion of the Christ to really get a sense of it), beaten, tortured, left to hang on a TORTURE stake (WT terminology), suffer in AGONY??? Senseless.

        • February 5, 2016 at 8:20 pm
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          I like how Richard Rohr puts it when he says ” as soon as you read that god forbids them to eat the fruit you know they are going to do it. It drives the story forward.” Or something roughly thereabouts.

          • February 5, 2016 at 8:25 pm
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            Substitutionary atonement theory is a weird beast. If you take Jesus death mythologically and metaphorically then it doesn’t have to end up as some barbaric transaction demanded by an equally barbaric notion of a God.

          • February 6, 2016 at 12:13 am
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            Exactly. There r folks who argue, regarding the “Armageddon” thing, that God can kill whoever He wants. I agree. He’s God. Of course He can kill whoever He wants. I know there are mitigating factors, His justice, love, etc, that may preclude Him from killing the innocent like a stone-cold psychopath. But the point is, He is not BOUND by any external laws or requirements. So by the same logic, why the heck would He need to perform some Universal tit-for-tat to “balance the scales” B4 He can ‘save’ mankind? What scales? Where r they? Who made them? & why would GOD be beholden to them? He’s God. He can snap his fingers, & Presto! – Mankind is forgiven. If someone wrongs u, do u need to perform a sacrifice in order to forgive them. Sorry, this is kinda off-topic. Shutting up now.

          • February 6, 2016 at 5:50 am
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            @A4
            Good assessment. I think when we read tales of God’s indiscriminate destruction due to seemingly minor offenses, we are reading the thoughts of primitive people trying to make sense out of why bad things happen. Since they believed that both the blessing and the malediction came from God (and notice in the OT how little the devil gets blamed for stuff – other than Eve and Job, he doesn’t get much credit) when something bad happened they were trying to figure out what they did to piss the BIG GUY off

            WS

      • February 6, 2016 at 5:17 pm
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        I am certainly not a JW as I believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Holy Trinity.

        It was Christ Himself who said “He that made them in the beginning made them male and female”.

        The Apostle Paul taught that by one man sin entered the world and by it death and so death passed upon all mankind.

        As to your belief it is an allegory, an allegory of what principle truth? What was then the purpose of our Lord’s incarnation, death and resurrection if not go negate the awful consequences of the Fall.

        As for circumcision, this was a Covenant instituted with Abraham and Israel as a sign in their flesh of the promise God made that in Abraham’s seed (Christ) would all nations be blessed. Covenants in scripture involve the shedding of blood.

        Not all men have their foreskin cut off. It is no longer necessary as the circumcision that is required is of the heart and that, according to the holy prophets was what It was all about.

        I think it is a pity that you think the only people who believe the Bible is the Word of God are JWs. That is ironic because their exegesis and hermeneutics are appalling. The problem with them is that they study what the watchtower tells them the Bible says and when they realise they have been lied to they chuck the whole lot away. The evil one has thus inoculated them against the true gospel of our God our Saviour and simple faith in Jesus Christ.

      • February 6, 2016 at 5:30 pm
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        Hi Winston that is a theory that was superseded in the early naughtiest by the discovery of the hobbit people, was it homo Floriensis? Which stated that we came from a couple. Either way it demonstrates the shifting nature of evolutionary theory which is constantly changing (a bit like the WTBTS) its position. But the Word of God lives and abides forever. Common sense tells us that if there was a female there must have been a male. The Proverbs say This I know God made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions. In his epistle to the Romans Paul stated that man did not want to retain God in his knowledge and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing themselves wise they became fools…

  • February 5, 2016 at 3:36 pm
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    Great article Susannah;

    When I was a young boy I loved dinosaurs; couldn’t get enough of them. I had learned the names for all of them (at least the popular ones). I was hoping to be either an archaeologist or paleontologist and either find hidden cities in South America or discover more types of dinosaurs out in the Bad Lands of the United States. However, as a good Jehovah’s Witness that type of career choice was, of course, frowned upon as being too worldly. After all, with Armageddon “just around the corner” that type of career would require more than just a couple of years of Community College but a full blown college degree past a Bachelors Degree in Science possibly even a Doctorate.

    The Watchtower society has fallen in the same trap as the Catholic Church fell in during the times of the Renaissance, namely the confusion of scientific fact and the literal interpretation of scripture as applied to science. Galileo was unfortunately made the whipping boy for the Catholic churches ire. How dare he question the authority of the holy church and their interpretation of the scriptures in regards to physical science? Sound vaguely familiar? It should–as any Jehovah’s Witnesses could conclusively tell you.

    The same thing holds true with their illogical misinterpretation of the “creative day’s” mentioned in Genesis. Who (other than the Watchtower) or where does the Bible mention that these creative days were 7,000 years each? Anyone with any public education past the second grade has read or at least studied that the earth is millions and millions of years old. The Watchtower Society is governed by a cabal made up of seven mental dwarfs governing the lives and thoughts of around 7 million kool-aid drinking dupes. The entire governing body, if questioned, probably has not one collective bachelor’s degree among them. In other words: If their brains were dynamite they couldn’t summon up the collective energy to blow their noses.

    Reasoning people have discovered, through the fossil record, that there were many kinds of dinosaurs some of which are still being discovered and named almost monthly. My little toy chest couldn’t begin to hold all the dinosaurs (toys) that have been discovered since my early childhood. What’s really impressive and wonderful is that they were all successful, reproduced and had their glorious moment of life on earth before becoming extinct millions—yes, millions of years ago.

    All mankind should grow to appreciate all of these discoveries of extinct creatures and study them. Not just for the sake of knowledge and pleasure that this brings but then apply that knowledge and appreciation to what we have today with so many animals facing extinction and not by “natural selection” or some other natural cataclysm but by our disregard for our own planet. After all once something becomes extinct it’s very difficult to reanimate.

  • February 5, 2016 at 3:39 pm
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    Dinosaurs are very real. I found an old fossil yesterday . It was 22 million years old so the science museum told me & I could just make out a faint inscription on it . The old fossil had big eyes& big nose & a very very Big head & the inscription on it was signed by a Neanderthal called S.Letts ?

  • February 5, 2016 at 3:45 pm
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    Wow! Excellent article. Thank you very much. I have always had an amateur interest in dinosaurs and just finished a book called dinosaur odyssey. If you get a chance check it out. It is not light reading by any means but it is extremely informative.

  • February 5, 2016 at 4:19 pm
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    I remember back in the 1970s using the green blue (turquoise) little book called ‘ Hold Fast to What is Fine’ which discussed each Creative Day as being 7000 years long. It was carried over from Russell’s time .
    The point the Society made was That Adam & Eve were created at the End of the Sixth Day which was after 42,000 years. The 7th day supposedly began in 4026 B.C so that meant 6000 years would end in …. Wait for it… Yes !! … 1975!!! Oh My MY & Voila , pardon my French , the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ which at the end would be the end of the 7th Creative Day !! So the Spiritual Wizard .. Mr Fred Franz led us gullible JWs to believe.
    But Brothers . Hey it was all our fault for looking for dates & reading too much into things said by the Watchtower! Silly me it was all my humble fault. Oh strike me down with a bolt of lightning or raining flaming Hot Dogs!

    • February 5, 2016 at 5:44 pm
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      I love all the colors of the book covers – like, “Look at all the pretty colors!”

      • February 6, 2016 at 5:59 am
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        I remember hearing about one “Bible Study” (student) who referred to the old NWT as “the green Bible” and I think it was the truth book as “the blue Bible”. Shows how ignorant some people are in distinguishing between an accepted holy book and a mere commentary written by a group of men. (although you might consider some of the liberties taken with the NWT commentary).

        Some people are willing to listen to any voice of authority telling them how to live their lives.

        WS

        • February 8, 2016 at 1:28 pm
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          “Some people are willing to listen to any voice of authority telling them how to live their lives”
          Really ? Unbelievable!! What complete and utter “cop outs” and twerps. LOL

      • February 8, 2016 at 12:53 am
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        A bit off topic but in reference to the Borg books- When we studied our ‘teachers’ made a big deal out of the colored hardcovers. They proudly shared with us that many ‘worldly’ TV shows and commercials used them in their backgrounds because they were so lovely and colorful…can u imagine..what kind of a dazed state were we in..

    • February 5, 2016 at 9:51 pm
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      Russell had taught that 6000 years of human history ended in 1874/1875, but Fred Franz came up with a new chronology which moved the starts point up 100 years. As I have commented before, you play around with numbers to get them to say whatever you want.

      WS

      • February 6, 2016 at 3:52 pm
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        Yes! Russell liked the numbers game. Numbers by pyramids. Russell’s pyramid scheme is still running after 140 years . The longest pyramid scheme in history.

  • February 5, 2016 at 6:47 pm
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    @ rob

    I think u hit on something in a previous comment. U talked about JWs being super-excited after “new light” at conventions, phoning each other up to discuss it, etc. It seems WT Dogma is designed to be innately changeable & ever-changing. People of other faiths are content to meet on a certain day of the week, sing a couple songs, listen to a sermon, throw a little $ in the plate, & enjoy the socialization. But The Watcthower demands so much in terms of time, energy, $$, & other resources, not to mention blind obedience, etc, that they MUST keep changing doctrine, telling new stories, or at least a new slant on the old ones, so-called “new light”, just to keep the rank & file interested enough to keep pushing the Watchtower Grindstone. Like the proverbial dangling carrot.

  • February 6, 2016 at 1:06 am
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    About that Adam & Eve story:

    1. Pity Adam & Eve didn’t eat from the tree of life first, since it wasn’t banned.

    2. According to Genesis 3:22 it was the act of eating from the tree of life that would make Adam & Eve immortal which is why god had to ban them from the garden of Eden so that they could not eat from the tree of life and live after they had sinned. So whether or not they ate from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and bad they needed to eat from the tree of life in order to become immortal.
    In order for Adam and Eve to have lived eternally, they would have had to eat from the Tree of Life; their own perfect bodies could not sustain living forever.

    Whether or not they ate from the forbidden tree they were going to die anyway as they were never originally made immortal.
    They still could have lived forever if only they had eaten from the tree of life. So, it was not eating from the forbidden tree that killed them – it was not eating from the tree of life that killed them.

    So they didn’t lose immortal life when they ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and bad because they were not immortal to begin with. So the question is – what was Jesus Christ’s sacrifice replacing since Adam & Eve were not immortal to begin with; they weren’t made immortal so they didn’t lose immortality when they sinned.

    3. According to WT theology, TWO perfect lives were lost, yet there was only ONE ransom sacrifice.

    4. According to Gen 3:22, it was the tree of life that would make Adam & Eve immortal not Jesus’ sacrifice. Despite Jesus’ sacrifice, in the book of Revelation, when all is said and done perfect mankind will still need to eat of the tree of life, according to WT theology:
    Revelation 2:7
    “To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God”.

    Revelation 22: 2, 14:
    “In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations”.
    “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

    5. Adam & Eve were supposed to have died in the day they ate the forbidden fruit, however that didn’t happen so god lied – Adam lived for 930 years and had children, one of his sons was born when Adam was 800 years old, so assumedly, Eve was still around up to that time (Genesis 5:3-5). According to the WT “day” has several meanings:
    – 1 day
    – 77.14 days
    – 360 days
    – 1 year
    -1,000 years
    – 7,000 years
    http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/beliefs/time/

    Would Adam & Eve have known the latter meanings which were given centuries later?

    6. The snake’s words were shown to be reliable and true. It is God who is shown to be a deceiver. Adam and Eve did not die; rather, they benefited from eating the fruit: they obtained a moral sense. 

    The serpent was accurate and truthful throughout Genesis chapter 3. God’s words in Genesis 3:22 are essentially identical to the serpent’s prediction in Genesis 3:5 – Adam and Eve had developed a moral sense, previously possessed only by the Gods.

    7. According to Genesis 3:17 – 19, only Adam and Eve were cursed. God did not mention the extension of the curse to Adam and Eve’s children and later descendants – the WT however, teaches otherwise.

    8. In the Bible we are told that children do not die for the sins of their parents:
    Ezekiel 18:20:

    “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.  The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him”.
    Yet according to the WT, god has condemned not only Adam & Eve to death, but their children as well.

    9. According to the WT, Adam’s & Eve’s sin passed on diseases, sickness and death to their descendants. One wonders – why didn’t god allow Adam & Eve to die in the very day they ate the forbidden fruit before they had a chance to have children and pass on their bad DNA?

    According to WT theology, at the end of Christ’s 1000 year reign, people will be perfect just like Adam & Eve but some will disobey when tested and will consequently be destroyed.
    Also according to the bible god destroyed all the wicked persons during the flood of Noah’s day and only left the righteous.

    One wonders – couldn’t god have done similarly with Adam & Eve?
    Couldn’t he have put Adam & Eve to death and keep repeating the process until he found a human pair who would obey before allowing them to have children?

  • February 6, 2016 at 1:20 am
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    About that Adam & Eve story cont’d:

    10. God didn’t want Adam & Eve to know the difference between good and bad, right from wrong as this was an attribute  restricted to the gods. They were created without a moral sense, with no knowledge of right or wrong – just as toddlers lack such knowledge. Adam & Eve were like the animals in one sense: They had no knowledge of good and evil; of right and wrong. They were devoid of a moral sense. Only gods had such knowledge at the time. 
    Genesis 3:5:
    “For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”.

    Genesis 3:22:
    “Then the Lord God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil’ “.

    They lacked moral sense. They had no concept of right or wrong. They could only get the knowledge to NOT eat from the tree, only if they DID eat of that tree. They developed a moral sense for the first time after eating the forbidden fruit.

    They had no moral sense – they couldn’t differentiate between right and wrong so why put the tree of good and evil in the garden? It seems God went out of his way to ensure his creation failed his test – why not put the tree out of their reach in Alaska?
    God made this tree “desirable to the eyes” and “pleasing to look at” (Genesis 3:6). In effect, God was the first being to have created an entrapment. The evidence is there for all to see. He wanted Adam and Eve (and the entire human population that followed them according to WT theology) to fail and fall into sin. 

    11. These two humans had no idea what “bad” meant. They ate from the tree because they didn’t understand what “bad” meant. When they ate from the tree, they now understood what “bad” and “good” was so why such a harsh punishment of diseases,  sickness, and death not only for them but for all humanity (according to WT theology)?

    It was only after the two ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they developed a moral sense, and thus could be held responsible for disobeying God. But he blamed them, and their billions of descendants anyway.
    A harsh and unfair God, harshly punishes a naive couple and everything else.

    12. How did eating the forbidden fruit make them now understood the difference between good and bad?
    The snake was being accurate and helpful. He implied that the fruit was not poisonous. He said that if Eve ate the fruit she would magically and instantly develop a moral sense. For the first time, she would be able to distinguish good from evil; right from wrong. For the first time, she would share this attribute with the Gods.

    Eating fruit provides one’s body with vitamins, minerals to nourish their body, so the forbidden fruit must have had some special chemical that worked on Adam’s & Eve’s brains to give them moral sense.
    In reality, people do not acquire a new talent by eating fruit; we are dealing with a myth here.

    13. God being omniscient proactively took steps to ban Adam & Eve from the garden of Eden after they sinned as he foreknew that they would eat from the tree of life and live. Yet he didn’t foreknow that they would eat from the tree with the forbidden fruit and thereby take steps to put the tree with the forbidden fruit out of their reach – only the tree of life was deserving of such a proactive action.

    God didn’t have the foresight with regard to their eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil but he did in the case of the tree of life
    Having the foresight to realize what would happen if Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden, God takes the precaution of putting a barrier between them and the Tree of Life.

    Or is it that God is not omniscient – not even of high intelligence – because he did not realize that without a moral sense, Eve and Adam would probably eat the fruit sooner or later?
    Any parent who puts a plate of cookies in front of their 12 month-old infant and tells them not to eat any is aware of what the infant will do.

    14. The anachronisms in the text:
    Genesis 3:19:
    “In the sweat of your face you shall eat ***bread*** Till you return to the ground…..”

    Genesis 3:24:
    “After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming ***sword***flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    Did Adam & Eve know what a sword and bread were? (they were eating from fruit trees). These things weren’t invented until years after the garden of Eden incident – apparently god was the inventor of the first weapon.

    15. Genesis 3:14,15 is a good indication that the snake is a serpent and not Satan in disguise. Otherwise it would make no sense for God to have punished all later generations of snakes – the curse on the snake has continued to the present time.
    Satan does not appear in Genesis or in the rest of the Pentateuch. Talking snakes and other animals are often found in ancient religious myths of the Middle East, where they represent real animals.

    16. According to the WT, “us” in Genesis 3:22 refers to God and Jesus Christ who was a co-creator:
    “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us…..”

    The foregoing arguments served to highlight that the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 is a myth. As such “us” refers to multiple Gods as the passage was copied from a Pagan Middle Eastern source who followed a polytheistic religion:
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geba.htm

    A good indication that Genesis 3 is a myth is that no trace of the Garden of Eden and of the Cheribims have ever been found. Of course, if  Noah’s flood ( http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_st.htm#flood )
    actually happened, it could have wiped out all trace of the Garden of Eden.

    • February 6, 2016 at 12:11 pm
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      Have you noticed the story of Adam and Eve and their children very neatly describes a transition from hunter gatherer to herdsman and farming landowner to urban dwelling human? As well in this description there is always a loss of some innocence and ignorance with each successive step. I find that interesting in terms of the story and what it meant for the people writing and the intended audience( which was specifically early monarchy jews not 21 century moderns). Not to say that an understanding of any myth in its original context is completely without benefit for modern people but our take will always be differant than that of the original audience.

    • February 6, 2016 at 5:56 pm
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      Hi Dee,

      God demonstrates his love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Being reconciled by His life how much more will be saved from wrath by Him. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

      Adam sinned because he, not being deceived like the woman was, deliberately stood by and disobeyed God. We all sinned in him. Sin is imputed to us as a consequence. But because of His great love with which He loved us the Creator came and took the wrap for us fulfilling the scriptures.

      Not to lead us to an organisation to which we must be joined to get to God but to become one with Him by His Spirit to be included in His death, burial and resurrection. If we believe on Him the Great sinbearer, our sins are forgiven and are not imputed to us. We are baptised spiritually into His body the Church, being bone of His bones and flesh of His flesh.

      Love and justice met at Calvary’s cross.

      Because in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom cannot know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of God to salvation.

      For the Jews require a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom but we preach Christ crucicied, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness. But to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

      Because the foolishness of God is wider than men and the weakness of God is wider than men.

    • February 6, 2016 at 6:10 pm
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      Two observations :

      1. It was David in Psalm 51 who taught original sin and the great Apostle Paul who asserted it definitively in that masterpiece of Christian logic the Epistle to the Romans.

      2. It was the Apostle John inn the Apocalypse 12th chapter that taught that Satan was the serpent as did the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 (if you read the context here).

      I

      • February 7, 2016 at 4:35 am
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        Dee, I loved your comment and it all made such good sense.

        @Levi, if the Genesis account is to be believed, I have some questions that I’d like you to answer for me.

        According to Genesis, there were some bad angels who came to the earth and had sex with women and they produced offspring called the Nephilim, and because of that, according to Genesis 6:3, God said that he was going to limit the life of men to 120 years and then God said that because people were so bad he was going to wipe people off the earth in the flood.

        My questions are: How did the angels “create” bodies for themselves that were capable of producing children since only Jesus was the one that created everything? Also, why would God say that he was going to limit man’s life to 120 years when he had planned in killing them all off (before) the flood even happened? It seems that before the flood he said he was going to let them live to 120 years and then he decides to kill them all off anyway with the flood. Does that make any sense? He should have limited their life spans after the flood, not before and after the flood, Noah lived to be over 900 years old when God had said before the flood that he’d only live to 120 years. Shouldn’t he have died before the flood then since long before the flood, God had limited men’s life to 120 years?

        My most important question was though is: How could angels “create” the human body, capable of producing children since only God through Jesus was supposed to be able to “create” all that was on the earth?

  • February 6, 2016 at 4:41 am
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    @dee2. Your comment was amazing! I am going to cut and paste it and print it out so I don’t ever lose it. It puts into words what my mind has always thought but never put down on paper. It all makes perfect sense.

    In the latest jwbroadcasting, somewhere in it (can’t remember where), the brother tells the Witnesses not to “over think” the things they read. In other words, just accept what we say and believe it and don’t question it or you will be confused. That to me says it all. Don’t think.

    Your comment comes from “thinking”, which Witnesses are told not to do and they follow that line of cult speak because they think that God is Watchtower and the Governing Body are the “Guardians of Doctrine” or G.O.D. ” to the Witnesses G (guardians) O (of) D (doctrine) as Geoffrey Jackson told the Royal commission in Australia last summer.

    According to the Bible, Jehovah created “evil” as Isaiah 45:7 says in the King James Bible (printed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society), which of course the Watchtower had to replace the word evil with calamity in their version of a Bible called the New World Translation.

    I also want to thank you for the links you put in your comment.

    If people actually think about what their Bibles really say, they should take them at face value. For instance, when the Bible says “day”, it should be taken literally and not figuratively, like for instance when the Bible says at Revelation 20:15 that “whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire”, then that is what it should mean, that they will be burned forever and ever and tortured forever and forever.

    Many churches take the Bible for what it says in that they believe in a literal hell fire but that is supposed to be one of the real reasons that the “truth” is really the “truth” of the Bible in that Witnesses don’t believe in a literal hell fire but there again, they believe what they want to believe. They wouldn’t like Jehovah that much if they thought that whoever really wasn’t a witness was going to be burned forever and forever and tortured forever and forever. What would they think of Jehovah if they thought that their children who never accepted the “truth” were going to be burned and tortured forever and forever? So, the Society rewrites or explains what it really says away so that Jehovah is more acceptable to them. But many churches really do believe in a literal hell fire and they will move heaven and earth to convert because they don’t want that to happen to their loved ones.

    The Watchtower Governing Body thinks think that they can interpret the Bible the way they want to interpret the Bible to make the their god Jehovah a “God of love” and not a God who creates evil so the rank and file don’t “over think” the Scriptures.

    The Governing Body want Witnesses to believe that Jehovah is a God of love who would never literally “torture” people in a lake of fire so they explain passages away like that and Witnesses are taught to not “over think” their explanations or maybe their heads would explode or horrors of horrors, lose their faith in that God, which would mean the Society’s downfall.

    • February 7, 2016 at 1:41 pm
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      I would like to add to my last comment above. Another thing that is supposed to show that the “truth” is really the “truth”, different than Christendon which is supposed to be worshipping a false God, is that according to the Bible, supposedly, there is no immortal soul that can be destroyed and suffer forever and forever in a hell fire but if you take the Bible for what it really says at Matthew 10:28, the soul is different than the body and can suffer forever and ever in a literal hell fire as Revelation says.

      In the book “The Truth that leads to Eternal Life” published by the Watchtower society in 1968 chapter 5 “Where are the Dead?”, not once is Matthew 10:28 brought up, which was deceitful and was meant to be deceitful to fool people who trusted the Society not to lie to them and to fool people who didn’t know much about what the Bible really says, who could bring up that scripture to the Witness calling at their door or studying with them.

      I was so proud of using that book in service because I thought it was really the “truth” but now I realize it wasn’t the “truth” that leads to eternal life at all but was a “carrot” to attract the people who thought that maybe, just maybe that if they believed what the Society was telling them, that they wouldn’t have to die.

      It was the Society’s rendition of the “truth”, but it did not teach what the Bible really says about the soul, which is supposed to be one of the critical teachings that makes it different than Christendom.

      Charles Taze Russell was right about the fact that if Witnesses read the Bible all by itself, they will resort to what Christendom teaches and that is because everything in the Bible that the Society teaches that isn’t a doctrine that is unique to the Witness religion, Witnesses are encouraged to read their rendition of the Bible and to go to their publications published by the Society that “explain it all away” so they don’t lose faith in the Organization, which is what they unknowingly really worship.

  • February 6, 2016 at 6:26 am
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    From now on jehovah witnesses will walk in to darkness day by day. the government body will teach the rack only dogmatic information, and brainwash, fear, mind control, money, authority, obedience and many more. JW will move away from educational subject because they were told do not read or look nothing outside of JW publications because these kind of subjects rise questions which lead to exit.

  • February 6, 2016 at 7:02 am
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    dee2 although lengthy you have made some great points and observations. It all seems a bit pointless doesn’t it? It does seem the creator of the first parents set them up for a fall but it does not answer why we the children have to suffer. it seems an elaborate waste of time and life force that self perpetuates for very little reason. Hardly a spiritual one unless you conclude this IS a testing ground for a later existence. So what naughty thing did the dinosuars do?Ruthlee

  • February 6, 2016 at 7:49 am
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    @dee2, great reading! Certainly a box opener.

    One comment…

    >>>16. According to the WT, “us” in Genesis 3:22 refers to God and Jesus Christ who was a co-creator: “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us…..”

    Re: “US”. Whether one believes in 1+1=2(Gods) or 1×1=1(God) is fascinating subject. Still more fascinating is God then takes counsel with Himself, “God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness’”, Genesis 1:26. This may or may not be an explicit revelation of the trinity but is part of the foundation for such, as God reveals an “us” within The God. Since JWs are big on Names (i.e. Jehovah & Jesus(Saint Michael)) no wherein the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit per the WT reading. Odd though, WT admits that the Greek word for spirit (pneuma) is used of the demons. Why would these nameless beings called “spirits” be an entity, and the nameless Holy Spirit not be a entity?

    IMHO

    dogstar

    • February 6, 2016 at 12:29 pm
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      The Greek word pneuma can also be translated “wind.” Hence we get the English term pneumatic which refers to something that operates via air pressure.

      WS

      • February 12, 2016 at 1:12 pm
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        While it is true that the Greek word pneuma can sometimes mean “wind” and such (grammar and context govern), there are places where, in the Greek text, the phrase ‘Holy Spirit’ has a subject marker, which makes the corresponding action something a real person does. Many have proposed that because pneuma is neuter that it cannot be referring to a person, but then, if we followed that argument to its logical conclusion we also would have to deny personhood to children as the Greek term teknon (“child”) also is neuter.

  • February 6, 2016 at 8:49 am
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    As quoted – “The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.”

    There’s a “God of the bible” and there are many other gods – different ways to understand the arbitrariness of life. None are “real”, a lot are useful.

    This site is about a cult – about a bad actor which causes harm, and is good at mind control – and about helping each other understand how we’ve been controlled.

    Not forking over bible based stuff – these are just stories – and all that belongs on some other site. In my opinion…

    SwimmingWild

  • February 6, 2016 at 9:25 am
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    The bible does not claim that there was a global flood and it most definitely does not claim that any flood killed off the dinosaurs as the article states.

    • February 6, 2016 at 11:04 am
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      @Sparlock, are you joking?

    • February 6, 2016 at 12:45 pm
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      The wording in Genesis and in 2 Peter does seem to indicate a global deluge. It talks about the earth and/or the world being covered by water. I suppose you could take it to mean the known world at that time. After all, if all of humanity was centered around Africa and the Middle East, why would a Global Deluge be necessary to kill off everyone?

      WS

    • February 6, 2016 at 3:35 pm
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      Potato – PoTAHto

      • February 6, 2016 at 4:07 pm
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        @A4 . When you say PoTahto , is that referring to the new dinosaurs that have been discovered in the Utah Desert ? You may have heard it on Reuters Newsflash…. New Dinosaur called Potatohead Sanderson & Vietnamsaurus Morris & Overlappingsaurus Splane & Pedophiliasaurus Jackson , etc I

        • February 7, 2016 at 1:04 am
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          LOL
          …on their way to extinction too………

        • February 7, 2016 at 8:36 am
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          I was trying to think up some such names for the elite 7 but couldn’t get past dickasauruses.

          • February 7, 2016 at 10:34 am
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            Tara!! Your new name for the 7 dinosaurs is frankly a Revelation!!
            But please don’t flatter them it might go to their heads. The fossil remains for dickosaureses have been found at the contaminated site at Warwick & I believe they are glowing green … Now that’s a sight for sore eyes. They do say Mens Brains are in their pants ??

      • February 6, 2016 at 6:35 pm
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        Objective science shows us that water finds it’s own level. If the top of all the high mountains were covered by like 22 feet it must have been a global flood.

        Immanuel Velikovsky’s Earth in Upheaval demonstrates the global evidence for catastrophic destruction, including of dinosaurs. It evinced such evidence as corals and shellfish atop Everest and whole populations of fauna that have been decimated. Given that every dinosaur DVD I have watched and I own at least 25, some of which are box sets, testify that most dinosaurs were covered by water of some kind, sometimes whole herds by tsunamis, then I am inclined to go with the flood theory. Whether it was the Deluge that left the earth without form and void and covered with water or the Noachian deluge that wiped out most of em is another matter.

  • February 6, 2016 at 4:58 pm
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    Dear all,
    You cannot prove either Creation or Evolution by scientific method, no witnesses & not observable or demonstably repeatable in both cases.
    There are some groups out there who do try to make the case for Creation and have some interesting things to say. [google “grady s mcmurtry” admitedly a man without any ms training, but his arguments on whats not there….]
    When I consider, Earth orbit, axis tilt, magnetic field, and so many ideal goldilocks conditions.
    For me Evolution just does not cut it.
    Reader

    • February 6, 2016 at 6:37 pm
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      I agree Reader. Fair comment. Evolution is being foisted on people by a neo orthodox elite in Academia.

    • February 7, 2016 at 7:22 am
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      Reader,

      As reflected in my other comment below, the last part of your comment indicates either/or thinking, something pushed on our minds by JW conditioning. Social scientists sometimes call this (excuse the negative connotation) making a fool’s choice; blindly assuming that one option negates the other, when that is not true.

      Evolution does not answer questions such as: how did the universe start? what caused the first single-celled organism? Evolution is simply the process that evidently occurred once life on this planet was put in place. Yes, some scientists have suggested answers to these other questions, such as the Big Bang, but even so, what caused that?

      Evolution cannot replace faith in a creator. It is simply a process that seems to fit the evidence that we have on hand. It IS scientific because it is based on observation of the evidence that exists, even if we cannot exactly reproduce it in a lab. The fact that the earth and planets orbit the sun cannot be replicated and tested in a lab, but you do not question this scientific fact, do you?

      Although some scientists may try to use evolution to justify an atheistic point of view, they are sadly misapplying this scientific theorem. The whole concept of evolution vs creation is a fool’s choice. One does not in any way negate the other.

      WS

      • February 7, 2016 at 3:54 pm
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        Dear WD
        Did feel attracted to the evolution idea in my younger days but it never managed more than that.
        Most of my working life has been in industrial manufacture and Nature looks MADE to me, though granted that establishes no holy ordanance in itself.
        I see no reason to rebuke God, because I was mislead by [a] man.

        • February 7, 2016 at 9:40 pm
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          Reader,

          I also have some experience in manufacturing, as well as science and engineering. As a designer, a human makes something that is good for only a few purposes or just one. But a truly great designer like God could certainly make something that can be whatever it needs to become and can grow and change. That is what the fossil record seems to indicate happened. Even something as simple as a tree, starts off as a tiny acorn and there seems to be little similarity from the initial product to the end product. Why does it have to be that God causes things to magically appear as opposed to letting them slowly evolve? The latter seems consistent with his other works.

          As I stated before, accepting evoluoton does not eliminate God from the picture. It can merely help us understand how he operates.

          WS

  • February 6, 2016 at 6:08 pm
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    I have something I want to add to what you guys are saying about Adam and Eve. What was inside that apple that gave Adam and Eve dirty minds? Can I have some? Share the love.

  • February 6, 2016 at 7:13 pm
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    Here’s what I want to add to everyones discussion about the flood. According to a show I watched on Nova there is a theory about what caused the Great Flood. Glaciologist Lonnie Thompson used data he collected from ice cores nearer the Equator to deduce that a mass extinction event took place 5,200 years ago, or about 3100 B.C. Thompson reports that a steep drop in global temperatures was followed by an intense period of warming triggered by unusually large corona mass ejections from the Sun. Ice glaciers melted and sea levels rose. Layers of sediment show during this time 5,200 years ago the united kingdom became an island. Before that it wasn’t an island. The show also showed skubba divers dive down to where an ancient boatyard has been discovered. Some think this is how the story of the flood got started. Most people lived around this area and hadn’t migrated to north and south america yet.

  • February 6, 2016 at 7:14 pm
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    @Alexandria – the story book about the “God of the bible” – the bible – does recommend the reader views sex as dirty, and women prone to dirtiness – so encouraging followers to think a lot about sex and feel guilty – good job it’s just a story book, so can be safely ignored. There are other gods who promote sex as clean pleasure – I believe.

    SwimmingWild

    • February 7, 2016 at 12:18 pm
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      @SwimmingWild @Alexandria – speaking of which, I recently enjoyed a coronal mass ejection myself!

      • February 7, 2016 at 3:05 pm
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        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Comments are closed.