A former Jehovah’s Witness Elder and Headquarters member is scheduled to stand trial in July after his arrest on four counts of second-degree felony sexual assault. Roderick G. Watkins, 56, of Heber Springs Arkansas, was taken into custody following a November 21st 2018 arrest warrant issued by the Cleburne County Circuit Court.
The charges against Watkins stem from allegations of sexual assault of at least four minor victims, claims which were brought to the attention of Detective Jenifer Osborn of the Cleburne County Sheriff’s Department.
All of the victims interviewed appear to be connected to Watkins through the local Arkansas Jehovah’s Witness congregations where he was a known and respected elder. Reports indicate that the children assaulted ranged in age from 6 to 16 years at the time of the crimes.
Detective Osborn documented the timeline leading up to the arrest, which begins with a detailed conversation with a local resident and mother of the first victim named.
The following police report by Osborn has been redacted by JW Survey to protect the names of the victims and their immediate family members.
The Police Report, Victim #1
“On October 9th, 2018, [The mother of victim #1] contacted the Sheriff’s office regarding sexual abuse of her son. [She] sounded distraught as she explained that her 12-year-old son named [victim #1] had disclosed to her, one week ago, that a trusted family friend had touched him inappropriately on his inner thigh. [She] said that the family friend is Roderick Watkins [who] lives in Heber Springs.”
“[The Mother of victim #1] told me that she had reported her son’s disclosure to her pastor and her pastor had told her he was reporting the incident to the child abuse hotline. [She] said that today, her son told her that Watkins had touched his privates. [She] told how this shocked her because she had thought her son had only been touched on the leg. She said she asked her son to tell her exactly what happened and she said her son told her that he had been at “Rod’s house”, downstairs, which is located in, Cleburne County, at 1310 N Broadway, Apt 13. Her son reported they watched a movie and Rod came in and rubbed his feet. She said her son, [victim #1] , said Watkins stopped rubbing his feet and ran his hand up his shorts and into his underwear. He said Watkins then rubbed his private parts for a few seconds. [The mother] said [victim #1] told her he got up and walked away. She said her son told her this had happened only that one time and it had been about a year ago.”
“[The mother] said that she doesn’t know what to do and said that she just wanted to let someone know that he had disclosed additional information. I asked her if she has spoken to anyone from CACD or DCFS since the pastor made the call and she said she had not I advised her that I would call and report this information and that I will be opening a criminal investigation. Case # 18-01126.”
“On October 11th, 2018, a forensic interview was conducted and recorded with [victim #1] . [victim #1] gives a detailed discloser [sic] about being touched on his genitals by Roderick Watkins at Watkins’ home. He tells how Watkins is a trusted family friend, babysitter and is a member of his Kingdom Hall. Watkins is trusted by everyone because he is a church elder.”
The Second Victim
“On October 12th, 2018, I was contacted by CACD and advised that another report of sexual contact by Roderick Watkins was called into the hot line and a forensic Interview was being scheduled for this victim, 15-year-old [victim #2]. [victim #2] disclosed touching of his genitalia and other sexual contact by Roderick Watkins that continued for years on multiple occasions at Watkins’ home and at [victim #2] ‘s home. [victim #2] disclosed threats by Watkins to [victim #2] ‘s dog, electronic toys, and a young friend if he disclosed the sexual contact. The circumstances surrounding the incident were similar to those of [victim #1] in that his family was also in the same church and had a close relationship with Watkins and Watkin’s wife.”
“On October 19th, 2018,[The parents of victim #2] came to the Sheriffs Office to file an official report on the behalf of their 15-year-old son [victim #2]. Report# 18-01220. The [parents] advised that Roderick Watkins was an Elder of their congregation and a Pioneer. They said he was very involved in the congregation and helped everyone. They also advise that Watkins is [victim #2]’s uncle by marriage and he has been a strong influence to [victim #2] for most of his young life. The [parents] do not know the details of [victim #2] ‘s disclosure, which I had already reviewed. They tell me that [victim #2] ‘s behavior and demeanor changed drastically when he was about 7 years old. This matches [victim #2]’s account of the first incident [victim #2] had with Watkins in 2010.”
“On October 19th, 2018, Roderick Watkins and his wife agreed to come in to discuss the allegations. Later this same day, instead of the Watkins’ coming, an attorney called and advised he was representing Watkins who declined to make a statement. Also, on this day, a search warrant for the residence of Roderick Watkins was executed and items of evidence were collected.”
The Third Victim
“On October 21st, 2018, [mother of the second victim] came to the Sheriffs Office with her 18-year-old daughter, [victim #3]. CCSO report # 18-01225. [victim #3] told me how when she was approximately 9 years old, she was sitting on Roderick Watkins’ Lap under a blanket at Watkin’s home in Cleburne County, and he touched her genitalia under her clothes. She said Watkins was a trusted member of their church congregation. She said she told no one about that incident and a few months later, it happened again the same way in Independence County at her home on [redacted address], Arkansas.”
“[The mother of victim #3] tells how even though her daughter had not told her about this incident until about a year ago, she had noticed her 9-year-old daughter sitting on Watkins’ lap and he had his hands under her blanket. [victim #3] said she told another member of the congregation about it at that time and this member confronted Watkins about not letting the child sit on his lap anymore.[The mother] goes on to say that once her daughter told her what happened to her, they reported it to the Elders and an investigation began. She said they were told by church elders that Watkins had done this unintentionally. She said nothing was done at first other than some suspension of his duties, but then when another unknown child came forward later, Watkins was disfellowshipped from the congregation.”
“As the investigation progressed, several people called in and came by the office and gave statements about seeing Watkins touch the above-mentioned victims inappropriately. Many of them tell how Watkins is a very affectionate touchy person towards children. They all agree that Watkins had a large influence and authority over this congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
The Fourth Victim
“On November 1st, 2018, [victim #4] came to the Office and CCSO. Report #18-01246. [victim #4] give detailed disclosure of being touched on his private areas under his clothes on two occasions back in 2011 when he was 16 years old by Roderick Watkins at [address redacted] in the summer and on November 2011 at War Memorial Stadium in Pulaski County during an event. The circumstances and actions of the two incidents with Watkins that [victim #4] detailed was similar to those of [victim #1] , [victim#2], and [victim #3]. [victim #4] tells how he reported his incidents to the Elders of his congregation soon after the second incident occurred. [victim #4] tells how he was not believed by the Elders and how he was told that he had “perceived” the incidents inaccurately. He said he and his family were treated differently after this. He said Watkins was one of the main Elders and he provided significant resources for the congregation. [victim #4] said when he turned 18 he stopped going to the meetings at the Kingdom Hall because he could not stand to watch as others continued to trust Watkins unconditionally.”
“At this point in the above-mentioned investigations, I believe probable cause exists to arrest Roderick Watkins for four counts of Sexual Assault in the 2nd degree. It is therefore prayed that a warrant to arrest be issued. “
“I swear the allegations contained herein are the truth, to the best of my knowledge, information and belief.”
Detective Jenifer Osborne (Signed)
Additional Revelations
Following the news of Watkins’ arrest, JW Survey received additional details related to the investigation.
Shockingly, the mother of victim #1 told the police she had entrusted the care of her two young children to Rod and Becky Watkins while she underwent extensive hospital treatment for stage 4 breast cancer.
In her statement, the mother said: “They were very trusted friends and we spent a lot of time at their house cooking and hanging out. He had been a trusted pastor until the church removed him from that position last year when 3 kids said he had touched their upper leg, making them uncomfortable.”
“He fooled all of us, all of our friends into thinking that’s how he is with everyone. that he loves us and is very touchy-feely. My son [victim #1] said he rubbed his feet when my younger son [redacted] went to the bathroom, he put his hand up his leg and rubbed his penus.”
“He thought it was a mistake and pushed as hard as he could his hand away and moved to the end of the [couch].”
The distraught mother went on to tell police “He has always shown a sweet, concerned side of him. Two weeks ago when everything started coming out, he showed a very arrogant scary side of him. He has always driven by and walked around our house. [My son] is afraid he will do that again, and he’s afraid Rod will take him from his family.”
At the end of this police petition, the mother of victim #1 checked the box which says “There is an immediate and present danger of domestic abuse to [victim #1]”, adding “the investigation may take 45+ days and we don’t know where Rod is.”
The Proximity of Watkins to the Kingdom Hall
The investigation of Watkins has taken a few interesting turns. Court documents obtained by Survey reveal that the address provided by Roderick Watkins is directly linked with the Heber Springs Arkansas Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The proximate location of Watkins to the local Kingdom Hall appears more than mere coincidence. Congregation Elders holding key positions sometimes use their own address as the Kingdom Hall address. This practice can lead to the mixing of Kingdom Hall locations with the home addresses of elders.
More importantly, if correspondence from other congregations or from Headquarters were sent to a home address, letters involving allegations of abuse from other locales could theoretically be intercepted before they ever reached the body of elders.
Whatever the case, it’s clear Watkins lived just a short distance from the church where his victims attended meetings.
Watkins, a Traveling Elder
Diverse sources report that Watkins was a career Jehovah’s Witness Elder who migrated from the Southern United States to multiple congregations around the country.
A North Carolina native, Rod “Roddy” Watkins arrived in Brooklyn New York in the mid-1980s where he served as a dining room waiter to the expanding Bethel family. In 1988, Watkins left Watchtower headquarters, married, and eventually settled in Sedalia Missouri where he and wife Becky began their newlywed life together. The Watkins shared a residence building with other Witnesses who relocated to help the local congregation.
Having left Missouri for unknown reasons, Watkins and his wife made their way to Indiana, where they attended the congregation in West Harrison, on the Ohio border. Roderick and Becky were considered by Indiana Witnesses as pillars of the organization.
A Reddit user who prefers to remain anonymous remembers Watkins’ going-away party in Indiana, where according to this former Witness, “[He] was considered the finest elder from the Indiana circuit.”
A second Indiana source said “We went to the same congregation near Lawrenceburg, Indiana during my teen years. I never would have imagined this about him. He and his wife Becky were the pillars of the congregation.”
After 2000, the couple decided to move to Arkansas, presumably to be near his wife Becky’s family in Mountain View. Rod and Becky eventually settled into the Heber Springs Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Watkins, a distinguished Elder, and Pioneer minister, served in the special capacity of Service Overseer, a position that placed him on the “Service Committee” along with the Presiding Overseer and Secretary.
The Service Committee of Jehovah’s Witness Congregations governs the activity of each congregation, and is responsible for making sure Watchtower policies are carried out, including the formation of judicial committees and the handling of child abuse allegations by congregants or appointed elders. Watkins’ position created a deeply disturbing conflict of interest within the elder body.
Several sources with knowledge of the case suggested that the number of victims may well exceed the four who gave statements to the police in Heber Springs. They said: “there was a previous [Kingdom] Hall in Arkansas where an accusation was made and the 2 witness rule kept it from going further.”
If the allegations are correct, Watkins could be implicated in the cover-up of his own crimes, since letters of introduction from other Congregations he attended would necessarily follow his transfer into Heber Springs Arkansas.
As a long-time Elder in the church, he would be well aware of the July 1, 1989, and March 14th, 1997 letters from Brooklyn Headquarters. The 1997 letter specifically required all congregations to submit any instances of known child abusers to the religions New York office, as reported in the Atlantic article from March 2019.
The organization continues to compile data related to child abuse cases using its secure internal computer network.
One Family’s Plea for Help
The wake of devastation left by Roderick Watkins is significant. One Arkansas family has placed their home up for sale after victim #2 attempted suicide. Just 15 years old at the time of Watkins’ arrest, victim #2 described sexual abuse spanning half his young life, and which included threats to his dog, his toys, and even his friends if he ever told anyone what happened.
A GoFundMe account has been set up to cover $100,000 in expenses for the therapy and treatment of this young victim. Both Witnesses and Ex-Witnesses have contributed.
The father of victim #2 posted: “Our son, [redacted], spent most of January in the hospital for suicidal thoughts/attempts. He could not see past the depression that he has been suffering from because of some horrible acts towards him. “
Who Reported the Abuse?
It is unclear at this stage whether any elders in any congregation ever reported the accusations of abuse to local or state law enforcement. All indications from the police report suggest that it was the families of the victims themselves who compared notes, then decided to speak to Arkansas police.
Details are still emerging in the case, but an analysis of the police report and other evidence indicates that Watkins was only disfellowshipped from the congregation following at least three reports of sexual assault by Watkins. The mother of victim #3 states that Watkins was disfellowshipped after another child reported abuse “later”- but victim #4 – the oldest victim – had already reported his abuse to the elders.
This provides substantial cause to conclude that congregation elders not only hampered this investigation, but their obstruction of their own internal policies led to the sexual abuse of a minimum of two additional children in Heber Springs.
Of course, it did not help that Watkins remained an appointed elder in the congregation until he was reportedly defrocked as elder in 2017, then disfellowshipped in 2018.
What’s the Reporting Law?
Arkansas law currently states that “Clergy must report suspected child maltreatment except to the extent the clergy member has acquired knowledge of suspected child maltreatment through communications required to be kept confidential pursuant to the religious discipline of the relevant denomination or faith ” – Ark. Code Ann. § 12-18-402
While Jehovah’s Witness elders are mandated reporters, in every case they seek out the loophole which permits them not to report pursuant to their own “religious discipline.” In other words, if their internal practices declare communications with any congregation member as “confidential,” they immediately take the position that they are under no obligation to report.
Elders are instructed not to report abuse whenever this loophole exists, rendering mandatory reporting laws useless and toothless. Any elder who defies Watchtower’s procedural edicts are subject to deletion as elders, or worse.
If ever there were a reason for the Jehovah’s Witness organization to maintain secrecy with regards to their growing database of child abusers, this case highlights their disturbing concern. Watkins was a trusted, appointed servant to Watchtower, having passed multiple layers of theocratic oversight in his rise to authority and prominence.
He was described as well-respected- a pillar in the congregation – so much so that families frequently left their children with this man, only to have their world shattered by these shocking discoveries.
The sect of Jehovah’s Witnesses is guided by the belief that these men are appointed by “God’s Holy Spirit”, and that congregation elders act upon this force, which weeds out that which is unholy or in opposition to God’s will. Yet the cold reality is that no artificial “spirit” has ever prevented a child from being molested.
In fact, the religion itself appears to harbor these individuals while twisting and obstructing the very civil laws designed to give clergy members the ability to report child abuse and protect their congregations and the community.
Pending a plea bargain, Watkins criminal trial is set for July 17th-19th, 2019 and will be closed off to the public and reporters.
Editor’s Note: In keeping with the policy of JW Survey, the names of minor victims have been redacted, even though court documents reveal such information. Adult survivors of abuse are welcome to share their stories if they wish, but we do not solicit survivors for information. Victims are encouraged to immediately contact law enforcement and qualified, professional therapists to protect the public and assist in recovery.
Anyone with information regarding allegations of sexual abuse by Roderick Watkins should contact the Cleburne County Sheriff’s Office in Arkansas, or the police jurisdiction where the crimes may have occurred. If in doubt, call 911 immediately to be transferred to the appropriate law enforcement office.
Additional Resources:
Children’s Advocacy Center of Arkansas: https://www.cacarkansas.org/
Child Welfare Information Gateway: https://www.childwelfare.gov/
Court Documents:
- Arrest Warrant for Roderick Watkins
- Felony Information, Arkansas v. Watkins
- Bail Bond Document for Roderick Watkins
- Motion for Continuance 5-20-2019
- Order of Continuance 5-20-2019
Please note that JW Survey will not publish the Affidavit for Arrest Warrant for Roderick Watkins as it contains the names of minor victims of Watkins as well as family members. While it is a publicly available document, it is our policy to protect the identities of these individuals.
Image Credit for Featured Image: Jason Wynne
I have one theory as to why WT’s growth rate has slowed. It can’t be because folks out there are more knowledgeable about them. As excellent as sites like JWsurvey are, the general population has no idea what the hell is going on, so they’re not going to be jumping on these sites en masse to learn TTATT. But JWs would, and do. They learn the truth, then run for the door. I imagine the dropout rate his higher than ever. This would cause a panic situation in the Command Bunker. Some kind of response is required. So the Head Honchos react in the only way they know how – by demanding MORE of the already-flawed methodology from their sheeple – MORE fanaticism, MORE mindless devotion, MORE generally weird cultish behavior. There is an old principle in psychology – when someone is under pressure, they become more like themselves. So, when newly-interested ones visit the Hall for the first time, they immediately pick up on the creepy cult vibe, now stronger than ever, and never return. Simply put, WT has lost its ability to sneak up on people.
Makes perfectly good sense to me gruntled.
The internet is probably the greatest thing since “sliced bread”. Anything can and will be placed for scrutiny on the internet or YouTube and the cults like Watchtower cannot handle the light shed on their beliefs anymore than a cockroach caught in the kitchen light. They scramble for the cover of darkness and scream “foul” when outed.
Most thinking people now research what and who they are becoming involved with and once they find out what is demanded of them they wisely opt out. This may explain why many never reach baptism after studying with the Witnesses. Most being baptized, in my opinion, are the children of Witnesses already indoctrinated and know no other philosophy as the study of other faiths and higher education is frowned upon.
Another group who may find this nonsense attractive would be those who form, what I refer to as, a “losers club”. Misfits who have no life other than hanging around others without hope for success in this system waiting for the Armageddon ‘do over’ button for a second chance. Pitiful and pathetic nobodies without hope clinging onto false doctrines and beliefs, praying for things they will never live to see.
The Watchtower has managed to round up 8 million mentally lazy sheeple who, like most children in a high chair, continue to be spoon fed pablum (read ‘manure’) instead of the juicy steaks of Biblical Truth. Which if they were fed TTATT, and the Watchtower knows it, the sheeple would leave in droves. It’s the mushroom treatment application ad nauseum.
I’m sure my parents would have given more scrutiny to this cult had they had the technology of the internet back in 1957 but alas this was not the case and both of them passed away without knowledge of this twisted, time banditry, hypocritical, pedofile protecting, Evil Slave cult masquerading as the ‘Faithful and discreet slave’. Well one thing is for certain, the Jehovah’s Witness stupidity stops with. I refuse to be a “faithful publisher “ (read: dumb ass) following this cult until death!
gruntled and Big B…..put my signature on that also.
Regarding this inspired/not inspired discussion…..I’d like to add this;
Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Wed May 19th, Page 2 – Fred Franz swore before a court that ‘Jehovah God is the editor of the Watch Tower’
and;
Geoffrey Jackson said to the Australian Royal Commission that “I’ll have to ask Jesus when I see him” after being offered an alternative scripture to ease the problem of child abuse within the Org.
If these two examples alone are not evidence that WT claims to have direct contact with God and Jesus, what is?
In order for a cult to be successful it must convince it’s followers that they and they alone have a special relationship with god and the only path to salvation is through them. It won’t work otherwise.
Make no mistake, the WT is and always has been a slippery slimy talking snake and they’ll say whatever they know they can get away with at any time in order to exert power over it’s sheeple. Just because they recently publish a statement that they are not inspired means nothing about their true intentions and to me only demonstrates that they recognise that complete exposure is ahead in the coming years and they’re only positioning themselves for that. It’s all about the manipulation of scared, obedient and gullible minds.
“Positioning themselves”…Absolutely true. It is a fact that the elitists of this world make plans years in advance.
Amen!!
messenger….when are you going to accept Evolution as the one true god? Stop wasting your time and get with the program.
I have brought this out before Outandabout, but I guess you missed it. It is true WT claims it has a special relationship with God, and that it is the only path to God. The teaching that CHRIST put WT in that position, as WT claims is taught at Matthew 24:45, is what WT uses to convince people of that. It’s not that they teach their writing is inspired.
As an example. God put Moses in charge of the Jewish people. Setting aside his inspired writings, and ideas he actually heard from God, Moses did things that were not inspired. But he was placed in a position to make decisions by God, for God’s people. That’s what WT claims. Their allusions to talking to God are either figurative in nature or, WT means examination of scripture and prayer. WT doesn’t believe God directly communicates with anyone today except through words in the Bible, and the idea that God through some vague understanding of how Holy Spirit works.
Outandabout,
When a pig starts talking your language and tells you HE is the creator of all things you could have a valid point. Until that happens, if it ever happens, I see no connection between the evolutionary theory and God. Even if the theory is true that, by itself, doesn’t prove God exists or doesn’t exist. The ideas aren’t even related.
You know, not related, like saying because Donald Trump wants to build a wall, and it proves he’s a racists. Not to me.
While I’m here let me lay some ideas that might help you know why people like CNN, and the democratic candidates make that assertion by connecting unrelated ideas.
CA, where I live, hasn’t voted for a democratic candidate for president for decades now. I believe it was in 2014 that Latinos became the predominant demographic in CA, edging out whites. It doesn’t take much reasoning to realize one of the reasons for this shift was illegals coming in from Mexico over the years. And so there was a gradual build up of potential democratic voters on CA. Why would I say that this changed the voting pattern to potential democrats?
To explain, let me shift to Texas. Because Texas also has and has had illegal immigrants settling there. EVERY SINGLE COUNTY in Texas with a majority Latino population votes predominately for democratic presidential candidates. Despite the fact that the state of Texas hasn’t voted predominantly for a democratic candidate since, I believe, Jimmy Carter. A long, long time ago. A 2017 survey reviewing the census projected Texas will shift, like CA has already, to a predominantly Latino demographic in the year 2022. If the Latino voting trend in that state remains consistent, Texas will then begin voting for democratic presidential candidates, instead of its long history of republicans.
CA has the largest number of electoral college votes in presidential elections. That number is 55. Texas has the second largest number of votes in presidential elections. That number is 38. There are a few states tying for 3rd with 29 votes each. Some states only have several. If or when Latinos decide the vote for Texas it will swing those 38 votes to democrats, maybe making it impossible to elect a republican president.
There are some very smart well educated people in office, in both parties. If I know of this demographic shift and voting trend, don’t you think they know the same thing? So, they feed you Trump is a racist, Trump colluded with the Russians, because their strategy is to get followers to elect them. If they told the white population we want to flood certain states with Latinos, because Latinos primarily vote for us, it could defeat that purpose of increasing votes. Why? Because although the general population isn’t as well informed or educated as their rulers, they aren’t stupid. If the democrats told that strategy to the white population, and maybe even to the black population, a considerable number of those folks would reject the idea, and reject the folks presenting that idea to them. And their rejection in some cases would be seen in the ballot box.
That’s why you hear this hubbub about Trump. They really don’t care what he’s done. They simply want to get elected.
Outandabout,
The huge flaw in WT’s reasoning about it being the ONLY WAY, is that it has presented no proof of that, nor has it ever given any facts to support the idea that Christ put WT in that position. It claims God doesn’t talk to anyone in modern history, admits that it gives wrong theocratic directions and Bible interpretations. It denies it was told by God that you (WT) are my only way.
No proof is the key to open the eyes of JWs. Because the other line of reasoning, that they are imperfect men and not inspired has been successfully used by WT for decades to fool people. So, imperfect okay! Where is the proof you (WT) were appointed by Christ, since you claim neither Christ nor Jehovah has spoken to you? There is none Outandabout. They even go further to teach there are no miracles from God today. That excludes them from claiming they saw a miracle. So, what have they got according to their own beliefs? The same thing you’ve got, your words and ideas, that’s all. They have got nothing to support their teaching Christ appointed them per Matthew 24:45 or from anything else.
WT, where’s the proof you were appointed by Christ per Matthew 24:14? Presently there are more Christians in China than in the USA, when counting all denominations. How’s that going for you WT? You cannot use your preaching success, since your success in your undertaking is obviously lagging far behind other denominations. So, lay it on us WT, what proof do you have Christ appointed you?
Even though I don’t read your magazines, lay it out for your readers if you’ve got it. Ohhhh, now if there is a response they will print, as always, opinion, opinion and another opinion. No proof Outy, that’s the key to slamming WT teachings.
And Outy,
The idea that the evolutionary theory, whether true or not, correlates in any way to the existence of God is like a misnomer. It is misapplied. The ideas don’t even relate to each other.
I cannot leave you Outy without reiterating facts, that can be taken as evidence about God’s existence. Thousands of Jews and Christians in the past AND TODAY claim to have been contacted by God, and/or that they were in the presence of miracles they attribute to God. (Folks who have not been diagnosed with or even had claims made against them that they were/are mentally ill.) But I am not aware of one of those people being a Jehovah’s Witness.
Correction
There is one exception I know about. I was still a practicing Jehovah’s Witness when I claimed I was contacted by God (because that’s when I was contacted). And I told my experiences to appointees (elders) of WT. I also told that to a friend of mine who claims to be anointed, and she has claimed that for years, longer than I’ve known her. To my claim she said, Jehovah doesn’t do that. So, per WT teachings, how would she know she is anointed by God with a special calling from God? Who told her, and who told WT it was appointed? Looks like nobody told them to me. That’s the dagger to WT teachings. It doesn’t even claim to have any proof, which makes its claim a sham.
Sorry man, nobody reads this sh*t.
Gruntled,
You just labeled yourself. Although it identifies you as SLOW (since you obviously cite yourself as a fool), nobody here but you (NOBODY) actually considers you to be a non-person. But as the following definition applies, many people probably do.
Dictionary definition:
nobody noun
plural nobodies
Definition of nobody (Entry 2 of 2)
: a person of no influence or consequence
You (Nobody) are digging your own grave, and I wouldn’t bank on WT’s definition of Hell or Hell-Fire. As WT is incorrect on so many things, your sad and tormented future might continue. But as God provides you choice, be my guest, continue as you are.
Answer this. Why would any active Jehovah’s Witness or any ex-Jehovah’s Witness be interested in anything you have communicated on this site? Unless, that is, their lives are consumed by hate, and they’ve got nothing better to do than complain about the pain someone else has caused them. The look what Daddy did to me complaint. Are you a woman Gruntled, or just a weak man? As all I see from you is crying and complaining. Disgusting! It’s like observing a whimpering brat. Aren’t you strong enough to make an enjoyable life for yourself despite what your daddy did to you? Who wants to constantly read the whimpering complaints of a brat that has a look what Daddy did to me complex? Make your own life, and stop being such a wimp.
As for ALL the Christian religions, the Bible, and God that you speak against. None of that is designed to save you or control you. It is only here, on this planet you live on, to give you a choice. That’s the only reason you exist also. And that’s the same reason (offering choice to you and others) I am here. Otherwise I wouldn’t put up with reading the ravings of brats like you Nobody. Because I never liked wimps. But as for making you do anything, the following scripture answers God’s view of that. Putting you in a certain place is another story. God controls what happens to you because of your choice.
” Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” Revelation 22:11
At least I’m not a racist.
I’m sorry my attacks on Witch Tower are too powerful for you. Unlike your hero, that blowhard Trump, there is serious bite behind my words. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Too powerful for me? You? I just called you a wimp. Too weak for me to appreciate your personality is what I accused you of. I labeled you a crier because, I guess that, someone has hurt you, the Daddy did me wrong and ruined my life complex. Why don’t you make your own life? Do you have the ability to do that?
My question was and remains, if you are willing to address it is, what current Jehovah’s Witness or ex-Jehovah’s Witness that isn’t full of hate, and possibly similarly a wimp, would get anything out of what you say on this site? Are you here just for us to understand your position in case you’re going down in God’s plan? Possibly. Because you certainly aren’t promoting any positive behaviors or positive futures for anyone. What is your position other than I hate WT and I hate Trump. Tell us what else you hate, as if we’re interested. As if your hate makes a difference. Not to me. But it does explain why some people will HAVE TO GO according to God’s plan.
If you want to know if people will help you as a grown person for throwing your temper tantrums take a look at what YOU do as you walk by the homeless, or those professing homelessness on the street. So, what good do you do here for Jehovah’s Witnesses? I see none.
Like a giant dung-heap with the gang of eight at the pinnacle. They cannot function without the commitee,s beneath them,they in turn cannot function without the branch,s and they in turn cannot function without the congregation elders and thiere slavish obedience to fear of losing thiere position.s. What a tragedy. If only they at the lowest level can acquire the backbone to undermine the foundations then perhaps the festering heap might just collapse.
LOL Yes indeed, the Big Eight Turds at “the top” – LOL – (typical ELITISTS) are unable to function AT ALL.
If they were characters in H.G. Wells’ The Time Machine, they would be the Eloi. LOL
messenger…..do you not notice that people’s contact with god is always through dreams or some other mystical misty un-provable means. There’s never anything physical to touch. Do you not find that a little all too convenient.
Evolution on the other hand is like a mostly completed jigsaw of say, the Eiffel Tower. Once a certain stage of the jigsaw assembling is reached, one can clearly see it’s the Eiffel Tower and nothing can ever change that even though some pieces are still missing and may take centuries to find. There are scientific proofs that exist today which took centuries of successive bright minds to prove. Evolution is being taught in schools because it’s fact while the bible, even though we swear on it in court can never be cited as evidence of anything where facts are a matter of serious concern.
We can actually go out into the field to see and touch physical evidence of Evolution and the weight of that evidence has crushed Genesis out of the picture.
Your qoute :”messenger…..do you not notice that people’s contact with god is always through dreams or some other mystical misty un-provable means. There’s never anything physical to touch. Do you not find that a little all too convenient.” Outandabout
Answer: It’s not that I find it convenient, I find it logical. If I called you on the phone to speak, or speak to you here are we physically together? No. So why would anyone believe the creator of everything must be present to communicate? So usually he isn’t. But with the presence of Christ people did touch God (the creator). Read John 1:1, Isaiah 9:6, or Hebrews chapter one:
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Your quote: “We can actually go out into the field to see and touch physical evidence of Evolution and the weight of that evidence has crushed Genesis out of the picture.” Outandabout
Again Outy, you make assertions without supplying any evidence to what you say. Sometimes, because of that , it’s even hard to know what you’re alluding to, as in this case. I can only assume you are claiming the evolutionary theory proves Genesis is incorrect, because of what many Christians state about the two ideas. But you didn’t connect the ideas.
The fact is, just like WT interprets scriptures incorrectly so do millions of other people, really billions. If you actually read Genesis you will see for yourself that it neither supports the evolutionary theory (of natural selection and transitions of species to other species) or refutes the evolutionary theories that relate to those two ideas. Genesis does support the evolutionary theories scientist associate with the geological development of the Earth. (Genesis 1:2,9) It is also very close in describing the order in which different animals came into existence on Earth.
But let me guess what your gripe is, and why you are asserting your theory proves Genesis incorrect. Is it this? Genesis 1:24 “And God said, ‘Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds.'”
If so you still haven’t shown how Genesis is proven false, even IF you can prove the evolutionary theory correct.
So this is how I see your position. You are taking the word of two different groups of people as proofs that what they say, both groups , are absolutely correct. My claim is that neither one of your groups has provided enough evidence to prove they are spreading facts to me. If they have to you, that’s your decision. But it takes a lot more than what I have seen them come up with, and that is from both groups, before I take things as FACT.
I’ll attack the logic of the first group’s idea just to show you how shaky the ground your proposition is on. Genesis 1:24 claims God created, ACTUALLY SAYING LET THE LAND PRODUCE, living creatures according to their kind. First, the claim “let the land produce” could be argued to support your evolutionary theory. Secondly, the claim that some Christians use to argue against the evolutionary theory is the phrase “according to their kind.” That argument is weak, because the method to produce the kinds is not mentioned. It is not stated whether one kind transfers to another or not in producing kinds. So their argument is nothing more than an interpretation of text. And it’s a rigid interpretation at that. So, you cannot convince me that there is a fact that the evolutionary theory refutes Genesis because of their interpretation.
Now for your idea, the evolutionary theory. The theory should only be considered to be the only valid explanation if it can be proven God doesn’t exist. Why? Because everything the theory claims it uses as evidence, take natural selection for instance, can be explained as happening because of the will and actions of God if he exists. Because if those things occur because of God’s will how do we know what steps God took in bringing those things about? Scientists who have no contact with God have no alternative but to attempt to explain what they have contact with, which isn’t God. Those scientists God has contacted probably don’t try to prove the evolutionary theory.
Now, it seems you have no rebuttal to the fact that thousands of us, maybe millions of us, (I don’t know the number), have had contact with God, miracles from God, and there are thousands of others that have had contact with some other supernatural entities. Your only rebuttal at first centered on the crazy man claiming to be Christ. But you DO realize WE as a group are not crazy. That’s the only reason you would refer to the most widely published book in all of history (the Bible) that centers on the most famous historical figure (Jesus), which was written by SOME OF US. I am quite sure you wouldn’t try to support your argument referring to writings from crazy people, would you? The proof that you ask for (of God’s existence) is contained in testimonies of us. Believe those or not, it’s your choice.
The mistake you make is the same mistake Dee 2 used to make here. You assume God’s plan is to prove to everyone that ever lives that he exists. Look at the Bible message, and show me where that idea is in those scriptures. It isn’t. What the Bible claims God is doing with regard to people is sizing them up individually to move them forward in their destinies according to his purpose. Revelation 22:12-15. So your proposition that God doesn’t prove he exists to EVERYONE is invalid in attaching that to idea to your attempt to disprove God exists. He’s not trying to prove he exists. In his plan he’s checking you out. The idea that you check him out or don’t is attached to his plan, true; but he is not doing things to make everyone know he exists. Your attitude towards the possibility of a God effects your behavior. And if that is seen anywhere I have ever been it is seen by me on this site. Thoughts..attitudes…beliefs…behaviors. He doesn’t have to let you know he exists to judge you. He sees how you think.
Ever thought about a hobby? I used to collect stamps. Baseball cards are good too.
Do I detect you trying to weave evolution into Genesis, messenger?
Science;
Over a long period, any animal has small changes in their coloring. Some color changes allowed animals to survive better than others of their species. These small changes piled up over time resulting in a coloring scheme that helped the animal survive and reproduce. This is how animals got their stripes and color schemes.
Bible;
Jacob carved stripes and spots into a tree and put his herd in front of them when they mated. When they gave birth, their babies had spots and stripes. Genesis 30:37-39
Ummmmm…..yeah!…..so ‘intelligent’ people go to Liberty University and get taught how nasty science is and how it’s a big con. I’m wondering, messenger, when they teach this nonsense at Liberty, do they use their 6000 yr old dinosaur bone as a blackboard pointer?
Jerry Falwell from Liberty said 9/11 was caused by homosexuality. Well I’m pleased to hear that because here was silly old me me thinking 9/11 was caused by absolute belief in a non-existent god and all those guys were doing was demonstrating the dangers of absolute belief.
Apparently God causes volcano’s and some of the worlds most fertile soil is found around volcano’s so naturally, humans are drawn to an area where they can easily grow food, survive and flourish just like god instructed. So I’m wondering, why does god attract humans in large numbers to a volcano only to blow that volcano up causing the deaths of thousands of people. Isn’t that just like setting out a saucer of sugar to attract ants and then pouring boiling water over them? Why does a god have about as much compassion for his creation as a ten year old boy incinerating ants on the sidewalk with a magnifying glass?
How is it that 7 of 8 GB members are white? Does Jehovah not think Asians, Hispanics, Arabs, Jews, Aboriginal peoples, etc are capable of leadership roles? Or do they also possess “smaller cranial capacity”, like the womenfolk? https://youtu.be/M9cGBPvfOYI
LMAO
The “science” behind this is comical. If brain size was the determining factor in intelligence, the GB should be comprised only of elephants and sperm whales.
As it stands, the GB is currently comprised of chimps and baboons.
But hey, there’s something to be said for being able to peel bananas with your feet, no?
So it turns out the Watchtower Racists don’t believe in the military. OK, but they still pay their taxes in full, right? Knowing that a very large portion goes into military / weapons / weapons development, etc. They are perfectly content to do their civic duty, and leave the details up to “Caesar”. They don’t celebrate Xmas, Easter, etc, yet are happy to stay home on those holidays instead of insisting on showing up to work. “Caesar” says “stay home”, so they stay home. They don’t believe in carnal weapons, i.e. GUNS, yet are more than willing to submit themselves to the protection provided by the Police, an armed FORCE, which uses … GUNS. No problem. No worries. No quibbles there WHATSOEVER.
Now, they have this “two-witness” rule. Is anyone asking them to BREAK it? Is anyone asking them to CONDEMN an individual based on the testimony of only ONE witness? NO!!! All anyone is saying, is LEAVE IT TO THE AUTHORITIES. Why can’t YOU (WT) leave the details to “CAESAR”, just like you do with all that other stuff? It is NOT your place to CONDEMN anyone. But if you receive a report of an actual CRIME, it is your MORAL OBLIGATION to report it to the authorities, regardless of the particular nuances of law in the area in which you live. Isn’t that what you’re all about – MORALITY???!!! I mean, you preach MORALS all the time. You are NOT policemen. You are NOT judges. What the HELL is your issue with simply reporting a POSSIBLE crime, and letting the authorities figure it out, JUST LIKE you do with so many other issues??? Would you report a possible HOMICIDE, RAPE, or even THEFT in your congregation, even if it was brought to you by only ONE witness? OF COURSE YOU WOULD, you HYPOCRITES, you OFFSPRING OF VIPERS.
So what’s the problem here? I’ll tell you. Watchtower DELIGHTS in abuses. They are akin to SATANIC cults that practice child sacrifice. JEHOVAH = SATAN. Period.
Prove me wrong.
Conclusion: The Witch Tower is PURE EVIL.
Q.E.D.
Here’s a fun story for a breezy Sunday evening (it is Sunday, isn’t it?) for anyone who’s interested.
I recently discovered that my sister is disfellowshipped / disassociated. I can’t give details, for I have none.
Here’s the ironic part. My mother, a DEVOUT Jehovah’s Witness, a SHI’ITE Jehovah’s Witness :D :D :D has this friend. Now this friend of hers, someone she was close to BEFORE she became a JW, is an atheist, supports abortion, put her daughters on birth control from their early teens, is somewhat of a racist, and is fiercely patriotic toward her native Yugoslavia, or at least whatever part of the former Yugoslavia she heralds from. She’s also a rather nasty person whom I never liked. When I was 11 years old, she ratted on me that I had stuck my tongue out at my mother behind her back once. I mean, what adult rats on an 11-year-old for something so trivial? But I digress. Point is, my mother STILL communicates and visits with this individual on a semi-regular basis. Yet, she NO LONGER communicates with my sister, her own daughter, with whom she has SO MUCH MORE in common anyway.
If anyone out there can explain this to me in even the most remotely logical terms, you deserve a freakin’ Nobel prize.
your sister is an apostate whereas your mothers friend is not? Theres nothing dirtier than an apostate. Apostates are top of the hate list for the GB. Rape as many children as you like, just don’t be an apostate. In the eyes of the GB, the worst sin is being an apostate because apostates have woken up with a clear head and will spread the news and nothing threatens the Org more than people realizing they’ve been had. Atheists and people from other faiths are ok because they probably don’t know about the Org yet and theres always the chance they can still be snared at some time.
But really, the whole of Christendom thinks along the same lines to a greater or lesser degree depending on the flavor. This is one of the bibles ways of making sure nobody wakes up while at the same time having the gall to say everybody has free will.
Outie, you may be a candidate for the Nobel prize! :D
However, I have one monkey wrench to throw into your logic, at least in this particular case, regarding the hope that the uninitiated may yet be snared sometime. My mother has indeed been “witnessing” to this woman for literally decades, and knows damn well that the chances of her becoming a card-carrying JW are about the same as the chances of the Pope converting to Islam.
But I totally get your points. After all, many apostates still continue to believe in Jesus, Jehovah, and the bible. You yourself have witnessed “messenger”’s enthusiasm in spreading “the word”. Yet, to a JW, the intimate company of atheists and fornicators is preferable to that of a dirty, “mentally-diseased” apostate.
I forgot one important point.
Watchtower is racist.
Ok. Get this. My friend was called into the back room on Tuesday after the meeting and questioned about what brothers said about there being in fighting among the body of elders. They wanted to know who said it and where the information came from.
They are out to get one elder ( who I have admit can’t hold water) and tells his wife everything and she tells the sisters.
But what gets to me is that we had one elder who lied about so many things and even covered up a sexual assault to protect himself and we all know about. He was never dealt with in fact he was just sent to SKE and has been assigned to a neighboring congregation.
So the real sin is telling the truth or divulging information we all know is true but as long as you pioneer you can get away with anything.
What a pack of hypocrites.
Wow. Yeah, be a total sleazeball, and that’s OK, as long as you don’t expose the Borg’s dirty little secrets.
So, I have another little monkey wrench to toss. “Bad associations” are VERBOTEN in the Borg, right? Yet, as I stated, my mother associates with a known atheist who approves of fornication and abortion. In the bible, that Jesus character hung out with prostitutes and other ne’er-do-wells, but only BRIEFLY, in order to expose them to the “word” and give them the “choice”. Then he moved on. But this situation is different. She is (and has been most of her life) INTIMATE FRIENDS with this woman, visiting, having dinner, stayovers, us kids playing with their kids, my mother even knowing this woman’s grandchildren, etc, etc, etc. So, to anyone with eyes and two brain cells to rub together, wouldn’t that make my mother … an APOSTATE???!!! AAAAAAAAAHHHHH
Welcome to the ranks, Mom!
The site is back. For a couple hours yesterday, before I read Lloyd’s tweet to his host company and their response, I thought I was disfellowshipped from the site.
Everything is fine, the issue was caused by the hosting company
Thanks for your response John.
I too and also was wondering what the f*** was going on. I just read the tweet myself. “Blah blah blah … Malicious Content … blah blah blah.” Gee, I wonder who could’ve been behind THAT? LMAO
I hope it wasn’t anything I might’ve said. I don’t want any hurt feelings caused by lil’ ol’ me.
But seriously, just in case it was I who may have triggered the delicate sensitivities of any of the snowflakes down at WT HQ, allow me to offer a formal apology in writing, for the record.
Gruntled’s Formal Apology to the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society or the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or Whatever-You’re-Calling-Yourselves-These-Days-for-corporate-and-legal-reasons:
I humbly and sincerely apologize for any emotional and/or psychological and/or spiritual harm and/or trauma I may have caused any member/leader/sponsor of your corporate cult in the past, present, or future, and into perpetuity. I am deeply regretful of my insensitive, and well, just mean, words. My conscience even now troubles me, and I have trouble sleeping at night. Even my bladder activity and bowel movements have been affected. Come to think of it, my whole life has been turned upside-down by my unwitting and unfortunate association with your organization. Your people virtually kidnapped and brainwashed me from the age of 10. Kinda like Patty Hearst. Are you terrorists too? You know, I’m starting to regret feeling regrets about the nasty things I said. In fact, I believe it’s YOU who owe ME an apology.
You’ll be hearing from MY lawyer.
Gruntled,
When I first read the tweet I did so from my phone, and the whole tweet from the server company didn’t show in my screen. Then I also thought they meant hateful speech by that term malicious content. But a day later I got on a computer and read the whole response from the server company. The malicious content was some type of malware the server company claimed to identify on this site. They said they shut the site down to protect us, site users, from email infections.
Yeah, and if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
How nice of them to “protect” us. Kinda like cameras on every street corner “for your security”. Or rogue cops beating the hell out of you “for your protection”. Even if it was “malware”, WHO put it there???
It’s amazing how much influence a corporate cult with lots of bucks can command.
I don’t need “protection”.
The maleware could have been in a link someone posted on the site without knowing it was there. Those things are hidden, so the person who put it on this website probably didn’t know they did it.
So I was watching TV late at night, nothing interesting on, so I watched Pat Robertson’s 700 Club for a while. I’m thinking, What is this Keebler elf doing telling me how I should be living my life? Some hot chick is sitting in a chair next to him (because sex sells, right?), and they have a segment where she reads him questions from viewers, and he gives answers to the folks at home. One question goes, “Does God communicate with people in their dreams?” Ol’ Robertson responds without a moment’s hesitation, “Yes, it is quite possible that God does communicate with certain ones through their dreams.” Wow. Here’s this half-senile 90-year-old Keebler elf telling people that God sometimes communicates with them in their dreams. I mean, you can’t write this sh*t. :D Just thought I’d share that.
People will dream about their obsession in the same way a dog dreams of a field strewn with juicy bones and an ant dreams of a sugar bowl the size of Texas.
If triangles had gods they would surely be triangular in shape.
The answer to contacts with God lies in psychology and neuroscience.
LOL
I’m just trying to figure out this whole Keebler elf thing. I mean, even Jim Bakker now looks like some kinda Keebler elf with a beard. Tony Morris, Stephen Lett, Geoffrey Jackson – Keebler elves! :D Ol’ Bakker, too, has his panties all in a knot because people are mocking him for all his failed prophecies about the end of the world, even going as far as saying God will punish those who mock ol’ Jimmy. LMAO
The whole innocent-looking-Keebler-elf thing kinda reminds me of that passage in the bible that says the devil appears as an “angel of light”. I mean, who would suspect a sweet-looking little Keebler elf, who supposedly spends all his time baking yummy cookies, of subterfuge?
I think the pointy ears give it away though.
LOL
Triangles creating triangular gods. Absolutely. Man dislikes uncertainty. He dislikes messes. And so we get the Genesis account of “creation” presented to us neat and tidy, all wrapped up with a pretty bow on top. ‘A’ was created on Day 1, ‘B’ was created on Day 2, ‘C’ was created on Day 3, etc, and the angels rejoiced, and Yahweh took a day off. Simple. Clear. Methodical. Formulaic. Boring. Then there’s reality, which is more BIZARRE than fiction. If you want drama, suspense, excitement, danger, and mystery, if you want your mind blown, just go on YouTube and watch NatGeo’s Earth: Making of a Planet. The REAL story makes “The Greatest Story Ever Told” look like a joke.
What has come of the trial? I cannot find any news about it on line, even though it was supposed to have happened a week or two ago. I’d really like to know the outcome or where it stands