The Guardian Newspaper, a major UK news organisation, has published an article reporting on the increasing pressure for the UK Jehovah’s Witnesses to undergo official investigation for their failure to deal with internal accusations and instances of child abuse.
The article, by journalist Sarah Marsh, reports that IICSA (Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse) which is the official UK Government investigation into institutional responses to child sex abuse, has been contacted by a significant number of survivors of sex abuse inside the Jehovah’s Witnesses, as well as a number of Members of UK Parliament.
IICSA had previously indicated that, despite the horrifying scale of the JW Child abuse crisis uncovered by the landmark Case Study 29 of the Australian Royal Commission in 2015, it may not be investigating the JW organisation in the UK, despite the UK arm of the religion using the identical policies that had been the cause of the crisis in Australia.
However, since this indication, pressure on IICSA has clearly been growing, not only from a sizeable number of survivors of abuse inside the religion coming forward to tell their story, but from other quarters as well.
Alex Chalk, Conservative MP for Cheltenham, is quoted as saying;
“I am waiting to hear back from IICSA and depending on what they say, I am planning to raise the issue in parliament and seek a backbench debate on it. I am not prepared to see this rest, not least because if we are going to drain the swamp it would be a huge missed opportunity not to deal with this [the Jehovah Witness abuse allegations] at same time of other aspects … it would be regrettable unfinished business.”
The article also quotes Solicitor Kathleen Hallisey, who has successfully represented survivors of abuse inside the Jehovah’s Witnesses in court, is also quoted as saying;
“The Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse to recognise the issue of child abuse in their organisation or to create robust safeguarding procedures to protect children. An investigation by IICSA into the Jehovah’s Witnesses is an opportunity for the inquiry to effect real change in an organisation that refuses to shine a light on child abuse and protect children.”
I strongly recommend the article as it gives a detailed breakdown of the growing swell of public and political concern surrounding the conduct of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in this area.
However, this is not all.
The Guardian launches a call to arms over JW Child Sex Abuse.
The Guardian have launched a site for survivors of JW child sex abuse in the UK to share their experiences.
You can do this anonymously if you so wish.
The paper is clearly looking to carry out a major expose of Watchtower and build public awareness of this issue; the kind of public awareness that would cause IICSA to add the Jehovah’s Witnesses to its investigation, and cause the UK Parliament to debate the problem.
This is achievable.
Similar media exposure and public pressure in the Netherlands is currently causing the Dutch government to urgently investigate Watchtower, as we reported earlier, in part thanks to the efforts of brave survivors telling their stories through the Reclaimed Voices foundation. The same can be accomplished in the UK.
Again, the site is here. Please share it far and wide, and if you are a survivor of abuse in the UK, please carefully consider if this is something you feel is suitable for you. Know that whatever you decide to do is the right decision, but if you feel that you would like to tell your story, be assured that the Guardian is a very reputable and trusted news organisation with a huge reach, and will handle your story in a responsible and ethical way.
Follow me on twitter @covertfade
This is good news. Thank you, CF.
About friggin’ time a major news outlet started covering this story.
I looked it up. The Guardian has quite a circulation!
The Governing Bad Guys are pissing their tight pants now.
The worst religion on child sexual abuse. No action. Watchtower’s dirty laundry just keeps being resurrected for all to see. Writing child sexual abuse articles in the Awake magazine and talking about it, does not get the job done, Watchtower. We have to remember, Jehovah God is a revealer of secrets.
I hope that when the IICSA do investigate the Jehovah’s Witnesses on this matter there are people in the IICSA who know Watchtower theology inside out and that they are also Biblically savvy. Otherwise the super slick snake oil salesmen of Watchtower and their lackey lawyers will run rings around the IICSA.
Then we’ll have to inform the IICSA ourselves. In Canada WT claimed that the Laws of Natural Justice are not to be found in the Bible. This is false. Natural Justice (judges must not make up their minds before hearing both sides; the accused must be informed of the case against him and must be afforded an opportunity to defend himself) is embodied in the laws given to judges: ‘Do not be prejudiced’ and ‘investigate thoroughly’. The ‘two witness’ rule is dealt with by Jesus in John 5:31-38. He explains evidence is to be considered a ‘witness’. Romans 13:1-4 states that the government is to deal with criminal matters, not elders.
In 1 Cor 4:8 Paul says: ‘You have begun ruling as kings without us, have you?’
There’s an opportunity to report other forms of abuse. Now’s our chance to be heard! Alert the nation to the horrific cases of emotional abuse, domestic abuse and the destructive abusive fallout from their shunning and disfellowshipping policies. This religion needs the ‘light to get brighter’ so that the world can see what lies beneath its shiny smiling anti-family front.
Don’t get me wrong the primary concern of the investigation is, and should be, child sexual abuse but if enough of us tell our stories it could possibly make a difference!!
As usual. The statement says JWs do not stop the aided or the parents going to the police. But why stop anyone? They stop elders from reporting
Once again, no comment from the pedo’s who normally have sooo much to say.
For those of you who are still willing to exercise some self-control, Please keep that in mind when they start to commandeer this forum again.
PS Look at all the fresh folks commenting now, without all that pollution around. Isn’t it refreshing? Of course, it is a brand new article. But still…
@Resister, sorry to be a pollutant, but any decent human should be disgusted by what is happening in the congregations. Unfortunately, the true believers have had their minds warped by propaganda to believe that Jehovah will fix things up. They are going to get the shock of their lives when the Weinstein moment hits.
Our stupid organization is doing more damage to itself by not only keeping quiet but also by enforcing a conspiracy of silence. Heaven knows why the GB can’t come clean and own up to their mistake.
Hi Ricardo, they don’t hear or see or speak about the issues because they’re like the 3 wise monkeys . Fingers in their ears, eyes closed singing ‘la la land’
I have heard countless times in public talks how the elders aren’t perfect and make mistakes. I have never heard of an elder being wrong, let alone admit to a mistake and apologizing. The mistakes are ‘light getting brighter’ and hence – not a mistake. I remember when I became an MS years back and an elder pulled me aside to tell me how brother ‘x’ and ‘y’ could not say prayer, be with young ones out in server, etc … If I knew then what I know now I would have put two and two together and knew the reason was due to internal child abuse of some kind and challenged the elder and asked of the police were contacted and I wouldn’t have let it go and would have called the police myself. So, it two elders with opposing views both say ‘Jehovah will set matters straight’ whose side is Jehovah going to take? We all know the answer but some elders think they are never wrong.
ive noticed that talks and WT study articles have been laying it on thick about being forgiving and putting up with each other etc etc. reading between the lines they still want the victims and parents of the victims to forgive the offender. also there has been public talks about loyalty.as good as saying that if we are not loyal to the instructions from the GB then we are aposates deserving of death..it really showes that the GB are never going to back down over their stand or the shunning policy..
Is the IICSA a separate entity from the UK Charity Commission? And will this investigation be separate from the one that is ongoing with UK Charity Commission?
@JWIntellect
This is just an opinion, but I think they are indeed 2 separate entities, involved in 2 separate investigations.
@Ricardo
Why on Earth do you think I was talking about you???
Just to demonstrate my point about getting OUT THERE, just look at how the jehovas witnesses have garnered so much influence over the years. Just by printing magazines and books? Hell no! They are OUT THERE every day, literally going DOOR to DOOR. That’s what we’re competing with. Do I lie?
… Even with their stupid magazine carts. They may just be standing there not saying much, but this organization recognized LONG AGO the importance of JUST being OUT THERE. Capiche?
I am paranoid.
Why can’t they just have parents accompany their children or have a blood relative do so when kids go in field service or study. There is no way to 100% protect children from abuse but at least this would show they are making some effort to reduce the victims. They are one of the only religions that I know of that refer to themselves as an organization…….They should get organized!
Chika77, you speak truth. However, we are talking about a corrupt “organization” run by evil men. Truth and common sense do not resonate with them. Ideas that are simple, basic, and sensible to us, are ALIEN to THEM because their minds are so twisted and their motives so warped.
@ Resister & Chinks 77;
If there is an “evil slave” this cult certainly fits the description of what and how the evil slave manifests itself.
It is refreshing to see that the Guardian newspaper has taken an interest in shedding light on the miserable record of egregious conditions of so-called ‘child protection’ within Jehovah’s Witnesses. This journal
outed the Watchtower over its UN involvements over fifteen years ago, and amazingly most active elders and publishers don’t know about this either.
It’s almost time, once again, to write my Senators and Congressman about what’s going on worldwide inside this supposed Christian organization which operates with impunity in this country. I will make sure I add this link to my correspondence.
May I suggest that all US friends of this site that are fed up with the actions and egregious policies of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society write their representatives in Congress and make them aware of what’s happening to innocent children inside this cult not only stateside but worldwide.
Hi Big B I thought the same thing The gruaniad is a reputable broadsheet in Britain. Also it was the paper that outed the UN scandal. So they will be familiar with rumblings from watchtower. I hope many are brave enough to come forward and tell their account of all the abuse that we suffered. If everyone wrote just one paragraph on coercion fear or the whole nine yards . some journalist somewhere will sit up and take note. Let’s hope it our turn as victims to have our day in the sun. Cheers Ruthlee
I know all too well how this organization works. Although not a victim of sexual abuse I am fully aware of how evil these men are governed only by their arrogance. I feel all religions have a right to practice as long as doing so does not cause harm to others. I’m sure you’ll agree the fact they micro manage their followers makes them 100% at fault for whats taking place within the confines of the organization. I hardly doubt the Catholic church has such specific instruction on so many varied life matters. They expect their members to follow. They really ‘strain the gnat and swallow the camel.’ ;)
So true, Chika77. Micromanagement is what cultism is all about. The control of people’s ENTIRE lives by getting in there and manipulating everything they think, believe, read, say, and do, and of course, whom they associate with. Watchtower makes sure that once a person is in, they are cut off from the outside world.
….and once they are out of the cult they are cut off from their friends and family that remain therein. I’m not disfellowshipped. I live a ‘normal’ life but my lifestyle is deemed ‘worldly’ by my former jw friends and even immediate family members.
I’ve been shunned by my daughter and SIL. I’m forbidden access to my only grandchild and will not ever see the baby they are currently expecting. My soon to be ex husband is still a jw so is still fully involved with my loved ones. Their cruel shunning policies have destroyed my 30 year marriage and split my family in two.
After my divorce is finalised I will likely be disfellowshipped because I intend to move on and hopefully meet someone else and start a new life. Even though I’ll be legally divorced they will consider that adultery! Micromanagement is an understatement. The scars I bear from my 30 year involvement with this disgusting abusive organisation will stay with me for the rest of my life.
If the authorities take on board the full horror of differing forms of abuse perpetrated upon this organisations members then surely they will dig a little deeper and investigate fully.
To Resister & Chika77;
Firstly, sorry for misspelling your name on the last post, Chika77.
Totally agree with you both, a terrific amount of gnat straining and camel gulping happening on a worldwide level that staggers the imagination.
And yet knowing this information, they stay in this cult; some hope that things inside this organization will change but their is absolutely no mechanism in place for this cult to change! Their voting rules of a 3/5 majority amongst the governing body members makes changing doctrine or policy procedures difficult if next to impossible. This explains why so many have shown their discontent, disgust and disappointment by voting with their feet!
Control their thoughts, emotions, news they receive, who their associations are and get their money is what it is all about! Keep the adherents in the mushroom treatment, in the dark, feed them manure (read B.S.) and if they step out of line or their heads get to big for their shoulders then lop them off.
The screen of anonymity has dropped from this corrupted, deceitful group of perverted septuagenarian morons and their pitiful cries of ‘poverty’ will continue to show just how materialistic they truly are. Looking like a group of sneaky snake oil salesmen, peddling their tonic of unscientific, unbiblical ‘doctrines’, which they haven’t solidified in over a hundred years, will continue to put their adherents off and hopefully out of their pedofile protecting cult!
Imgonaburn, I do deeply empatize with you. My 23 years marriage has also not lasted the blown of my abandoning this folly of a sect. I can say that my wife’s being a very zealot jw was the straw that tipped the balance. It’s very sad but it’s also hard to see how can a disassociate live with a Jw
I am aware that submission to authority is drilled into witnesses and perhaps for some it is unthinkable to disobey the elders, BUT…when it comes to field service (or whatever activity) if a parent does not want their children to work in service with others or only with themselves, say so. Whether the elders fuss or not, too bad. Parents, do what you feel is best whether anyone else likes it or not. That is your God given right. God gave your children to you not the elders. If anything were to happen and parents claim they were being obedient and trusting, I’m pretty sure the elders will not take the fall, it will be the parents.
Regards
I’ve noticed a billboard outside the local Catholic church announcing an upcoming Return Home program. I guess this is the Catholic version of Return to Jehovah. The Exclusive Brethren have recently had to soften their rigid stance because of teenagers rejecting the teachings and leaving home. Amazing how Truth in these organisations is absolute, right up until the survival of the organisation is threatened and then all of a sudden the truth gets bent. Thats the way it’s been right from the beginning. Once, a person could be stoned to death for uttering Jehovah’s name.
Faith evolves, just like everything else. Believers kid themselves they’re being true. They’re not, they’re being true to a version of the bible because it’s impossible to be true to the whole bible, hence the need for constant change.
The only constant in this world is change.
Just a side point.
They say no part of the world but did anyone notice they have an article today about women’s role in the Bible. Why do it on world women’s day ?
All just looking for popularity and do as we say not as we do. Hypercritical
you speak the truth, Big B, and I understand your frustration.
@Big B
Good points. Yeah, I forgot to list EMOTIONS on my Watchtower Schedule of Micromanagement. The worst kind of manipulation / conditioning, even beyond mind-control — Emotion-Control. Telling people how they’re supposed to FEEL is beyond disgusting – real hard core 1984 stuff, and beyond.
BTW It’s high time the Watchtower changed its name to The Liars’ Club.
@Graham
“Hypercritical” – Good one – Watchtower has reached CRITICAL MASS.
HA HA HA
@outandabout
“Faith evolves” – more proof of The Law of Evolution.
HA HA HA
Interesting point about the only constant being change. Maybe that’s one reason the “faithful” have such a hard time accepting Evolution. They hate change. They fear it. They only change, as you stated, when survival depends on it. Not for the sake of growth, advancement, or even personal development. SAD.
You’re right, Resister, they don;t like change. One example I see is when in the 1930’s?…..Watchtower said ‘there’s no such thing as rabies’ and ‘it’s never been proven that germs cause disease’. To me, this was WT trying to keep illness in the realm of the supernatural and the result of demonic influence as the result of not being a good follower of WT doctrine and they also didn’t want science to start proving the bible or themselves wrong.
This business when S Lett? or Morris? said there is no such thing as wind, gravity or electricity seems to me a clumsy attempt to refute science by trying to bring into doubt anything with the word ‘theory’ attached to it. I think the real target was the theory of evolution but he couldn’t quite bring it off. They’re worried about the theory, now fact, of evolution.
We’re moving forward but WT are trying to drag us kicking and screaming back into the 1st century. Well that train, or should I say donkey, can leave without me.
@ outandabout,
The Watchtower also believed that vaccination and immunizations of school children were a waste of time during the tenure of ‘set up another round’ Joe Rutherford. A notorious sot where his word, no matter how slurred, was Law. The Witnesses have their name, place of meeting, and door to door ministry along with other ridiculous doctrines thanks to their second drunken president, Joseph ‘Judge’ Rutherford.
The Witnesses haven’t figured out what the coming of Armageddon will mean for the survivors of this holocaust. Without the mental knowhow or any sufficient college education they will be placed back in the Middle Ages. No phone service, no electricity and all the ramifications that come from that; such as no way to pump water from wells or gas station tanks, no air conditioning or refrigeration.
They must believe that God will miraculously provide them with the comforts of a 21st century lifestyle. How long do you suppose it will be before they start kevetching and complaining just like the Israelites did during the Exodus? Not long I wager. Then their “merciful” God will be more than happy to end their complaints just as he stopped the moaning of the Israelites; by smiting them. No, I don’t believe any of the Witnesses have thought this thing through to it’s logical conclusion.
Meanwhile, the two witness rule continues to be applied to the detriment of all without concern of the ramifications of their stubbornness, no matter what the cost. And the pedofiles continue their perverse practices in their pedofiles paradise unabated while the judgements continue to rack up tens of millions of dollars.
Question to all; is their anything that you can do criminally to be completely banned from reinstatement in this wacko organization. I know personally of a Witness who was disfellowshiped for criminal behavior, jailed and while in prison killed a guard. He, although serving a life sentence, has been reinstated! What a joke, and this is Jehovah’s Organization?
Hi Outandabout,
[One example I see is when in the 1930’s?…..Watchtower said ‘there’s no such thing as rabies’ and ‘it’s never been proven that germs cause disease’.]
“Whoever isolates himself pursues his own selfish desires; He rejects all practical wisdom.” – Prov 18:1
It seems WT organization has become a victim of their own isolation.
I see two things in play. First is the question of accepting outside authority. Second is the narrative of “worsening world conditions.” By the 1930s science was beginning to gain ground on items that obviously contradicted JW doctrine. While the theory of evolution comes to mind, the age of the earth was another. I would need to look it up, but I believe in those years JWs reckoned the age of the earth at 49,000 years. With the science of geology and cosmology pushing back ages much further into the past there would be a conflict. So if science was wrong about one thing, could new discoveries about rabies and germs also be wrong?
The other problem is progress in general tends to work against a worsening world conditions narrative. The truth of the matter is in countless ways life has improved greatly since 1870s and since 1914.
Even though similar concerns may be at play in regards to protecting children from sexual predators I honestly can’t make any sense out of their stance. They’re putting the organization at tremendous legal risk when it seems all that would need to be done is tell congregation members that reports of criminal behavior will be forwarded to the police in all cases. This must be the policy, lest the congregation be found to be shielding a criminal from consequences. A reference to “superior authorities” could be used as justification.
What possible reason could they have for any other policy? Some refer to privacy, but who would suggest one needs to protect the privacy of a suspected criminal? And a report to police is not the same as reporting it to the newspaper!
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy Galbraith. It could be that Watchtower maintains its policy on sexual predators to primarily protect high ranking members, including individuals of the GB, who have in times gone by or in the present committed sexual offences against children.
Some years ago the Belgium police, who were investigating pedafile rings were ordered to abandon one line of enquiry because it was leading to the discovery of sexual abuse of children by a member of the Belgium Monarchy.
Randy
Remember the scripture that says because an offender (sinner) doesn’t suffer immediate punishment he becomes embolden-believing he won’t suffer a consequence? Because that belief caused WT to rack up such a long history of inadequate child protection policies now it is at great legal risk and reputational risk. Maybe if its policies were made public before they were at such risk they would’ve changed those more quickly than their slow movement now. WT doesn’t want to admit to any guilt. The consequence now for doing that is too great.
I’d still advice it to change its policy. Since that will help it long term. WT is depending highly on the laws separating church and state, and the court rulings its won upholding organizations’ rights to sanction their own members. But WT knows those don’t give enough protection now, because although winning some court decisions regarding shunning for instance, its lost quite a few on its pedophile policy issues.
Now I think it’s kind of like the kid that doesn’t want to admit he ate the cookies for fear of his parents response. Even telling current JWs to report every incident is going to bring this out a lot more than it currently is. It is the lawsuits and tarnished reputation WT fears. Their response has nothing to do with WT’s interpretation of scripture. Maybe that was partially the case in the 80s and 90s but not anymore. The biggest motivator now is money. The more WT can cover over this, even with the blaming of “apostate lies,” the less money it will cost WT in the short run.
Here’s one thing I just though of. If there are statutes of limitations on WT’s behavior regarding child protection policies, then a workable legal strategy might be to gradual conform its policies over time, making those more and more acceptable to the general public, and thus not abruptly or even ever admit to any wrongdoing. In doing so let the older victims lose their right to sue. That strategy will only work though if there are statutes of limitations on WT’s behavior.
Here, while writing comment I looked it up:”In California, the filing of a civil claim of sexual abuse must be made within 8 years of the age of majority (meaning before your 26th birthday). However, California is one of 28 states that have adopted an extension of the statute of limitations based on the “discovery” of child sexual abuse or its effects.”
So, these statutes exist, and WT lawyer are definitely considering those as part of their legal strategy. If victims have no legal claims WT keeps its money.
messenger, old buddy…..see….when you get your nose out of the bible you can actually talk some sense. But anyway, if it’s ok, I’d like to make a prophecy – the world will continue to wake up from religious indoctrination and when the number of believers left reaches 144,000, whoosh!, The Rapture. Shortly afterwards God will pull an enormous lever opening the ground up under 7 billion people and send them all into the fiery pits of hell, crying “on no, I should have done more field service”. Of course, you will be included in the rapture. Good, aye! See how I look after you?
outandabout
Point out fallacies in my arguments if you can, instead of just your opinions about comments, like my reasoning doesn’t make sense. If you cannot do that we can reasonably believe you do not posses the ability to do so, or you are rather manipulative for a reason I’ll bring up in this comment. Please note that every attack I make on another’s belief is based on facts and reason-in short explanations based on facts.
Many of your comments, and hardly any of Donald’s and Resister’s rely on those tools. I’m talking about facts and reason. Assumptions and opinions based on attaching yourself to the beliefs of others, yes that’s your way, facts and logical explanations, no that’s not your way.
Is an opinion agreeing with yours what you call using sense? It’s not in the social circles I hang out in. Yet I can understand your approach to discussions to persuade because most people are followers out of fear, not leaders, which might make your approach somewhat successful. But it’s an unethical approach if your desire is to use fear in others to accept your views. Oh, isn’t that a WT tactic? The call to conform by fear is something you speak against that when claiming a religious origin, but daa? Aren’t you constantly doing the same thing? It appears so.
Hi Messenger,
[Remember the scripture that says because an offender (sinner) doesn’t suffer immediate punishment he becomes embolden-believing he won’t suffer a consequence?]
I recall… but wording a verse escaped me :(. After a fair amount of supplication to Google I found it:
“When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong” – Ecclesiastes 8:11
In these Google travels I was reminded of the principal of “Justice delayed is justice denied.” Apparently this showed up in the Magna Carta, but in this the reference is Exodus 18:22, where Jethro tells Moses to use others to judge simpler cases.
I believe cultural context has great impact on many things. I was an elder when Bill Bowen set up Silent Lambs. I think most of us at the time felt there couldn’t be a systemic problem. He probably was just grandstanding, even at the expense of those he supposedly was helping. When the organization you love *must* be right your mind can play funny tricks on you. Our CO apparently knew Bill Bowen and was quick to character assassinate him in private to us elders. However when the multi-page BOE letter came out that shifted our policies it did make me wonder. Why was Jehovah dependent on an apostate to improve policy?
On the JW-only jwtalk website some posts are publicly visible. Where GB member Geoffrey Jackson testimony to the Australian Royal Commission is mentioned the tone is, not surprisingly, much different than what one would see in an Ex-JW site. The JW poster sees Jackon’s testimony as a sacrifice, given that he was in Australia to attend to his ill father. Calls for prayers for him is suggested. All such cultural echo-chamber effect can be self-deluding.
Cheers,
-Randy
Messenger, there is no need to point out the fallacies in your reasoning… there are none. I think that there is enough in the Bible to back up your faith and enough to destroy it. Choose what you want and believe it if you can. Believing however is not a matter of effort. If you, or better if I need to make an effort to believe, it means that I’m not believing after all. I don’t know if I slipped through the cracks, I don’t even know what it means exactly, English is not my language. I know that I earnestly tried to believe in the God of the Bible and I simply couldn’t. To many things cried loud in my conscience that I was just reading a very ancient book written by men with their agenda in mind.
There is no point in arguing.
Randy,
You’re comment is right. Once anyone crosses WT there is a character assassination that is often literal, and always implied by disfellowshipping the person. When the incident happened with Ray Franz I was an MS. Then another MS that previously served at New York Bethel told me, ” I don’t put much stock in how good a brother is as a speaker, because Ray Franz was the best speaker I ever heard, and now look at him, he turned apostate.”
It wasn’t until just a few years ago that I learned how bogus that statement was. As I read Ray Franz’s books just 3 years ago, I learned that he, in my opinion, was the most intelligent GB member I’ve ever heard from and possibly the most intelligent JW I’ve ever heard from. I also learned his beliefs conform more closely to true Christianity than WT’s. Compared to Ray Franz JWs are at best baby Christians and at worst apostate Christians. I also learned how WT smeared his name with false comments about him after it disfellowshipped him..
Randy, more evidence of fulfilled prophecy again. ” I will put enmity between your seed, and her seed.” Gen 3
Take care Randy
Hi Randy, to me, the laws in the States give too much freedom to religious expression. Anything goes, so long as it’s in gods name, almost, and this has allowed charlatanism to flourish. America – land of the best and the worst.
It’s no wonder the GB are so arrogant because they honestly believe they are the highest power on Earth in waiting and all they have to do is hang on and stall until they’re rescued by Armageddon. The GB appear to be just like jellyfish – brainless, heartless, spineless, transparent. Primitive lifeforms.
outandabout/ and Donald,
One thing writing about scriptures accomplishes is that it allows readers to witness the fulfillment of Bible prophecy in real time. For instance, at John 15:17-21 Christ stated people would hate Christians and Christ’s message they share because of Christ, and because the message is his message.
Now, in scriptural discussions on this site that idea that was shared by Christ centuries ago is apparent, isn’t it? You might reason that was a lucky guess on Christ’s part, as you might guess he was lucky when he said his religion would become the world’s largest-and Isaiah prophesied that also, and I think Zechariah did also, if I remember correctly. Hmm a fact that became true uttered by at least three Bible prophets. Or, was the Bible altered after Christianity became the world’s largest religion? Not! But that coincidental or lucky guess of your imagination is just a conclusion based on your reasoning and your wish. I primarily write for those who will not reach your conclusions. Many people interpret facts, and relate those facts to scripture as you relate facts you interpret to the evolutionary theory.
I saw a TV program on Darwin yesterday, and it quoted him as claiming he was not an atheist. Maybe Donald J would like to comment on that, or Resister. How about it Donald or Resister, how about sharing what you know about that topic? Did Darwin claim he was not an atheist?
@messenger
they just stated vague prophecies saying that the little will become a moltitude and similar.
To me there are three kind of prophecies in the Bible.
The first is referring to something already happened before the oldest copies of the codes were written. They can be very precise, like naming Cyrus. This kind of prophecies may, I say may, have been written after the facts.
The second kind of prophecies refers to Christ, and keep in mind that we don’t know anything about Christ apart from the gospels. The gospels were written many years after the death of Jesus, so many of the prophecies were not verifiable. Say the fact that no bone was broken… according to the gospels there were only a few disceples there.
Then we have the prophecies regarding the future, the best of all being Revelation, which is not at all a Revelation.
Now it stikes me the difference between how precise the prophecies can be regarding the past events and how nebulose they are regarding the future….
Hi Outandabout,
The first amendment protection for freedom of religion, speech and free press is of course an important freedom. That it would allow for abuse of these freedoms is unfortunately going to happen. Speech can be used to slander a free press allows for horrid, hateful and false information to be printed.
I view the Kingdom Hall announcement “So-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” is a form of slander. While simple and truthful at face value, we know it is actually a coded message of “So-and-so is the moral equivalent of the sex pervert mentioned at 1 Cor 5 and henceforth all obedient JWs should shun them.” So I would not mind if the individual and organization making the announcement faced a real possibility of civil action. Alas, they are protected.
The problem of course, is lack of freedom of religion, has played an awful role throughout history.
Cheers,
-Randy
tranquillo
I believe you are misinformed is several areas. First there are other ancient sources that speak of Christ than
the gospels, epistles, and Acts of the Apostles you mentioned. There are some secular sources describing Christ’s life also. Check out a journalist that looked into the matter, Lee Strobel. His book, A Case For Christ. He looked into what people claimed about Christ’s death, resurrection, and appearance after his death back in that day. Lee Strobel was an atheist and journalist who started out to prove his wife’s faith wrong, because he decided he couldn’t continue to stay married to her if she remained a Christian. Instead the weight of the evidence he uncovered converted him. There’s also a movie by the same name.
Also, the prophecies are in no way vague. And every ex-JW should know that, or any informed Bible reader. Naming a world leader before he was born, vague? I think you know not. But maybe you were never baptized, or a person who slipped through the cracks. If so, further Bible reading will show you that prophesies in the Bible are not vague predictions.
Besides if you are commenting on my comment of March 11, 7:14 pm I listed a prophecy of Christ that is in no way vague, and one you can observe being fulfilled through commenters on this web site.
Christ claimed people would show a hatred for his followers expressed through mocking them and much worse, simply because they are carrying his message. He went on to claim the hatred is because some people hate the message and hate Christ. I believe you’ve seen that here.
But if not here’s one example:
If I suggested to readers here they might check out what a Doctor who once ran Ford Motor Company’s computer room, and after leaving left that job became the chairman and CEO of one of the world’s largest manufacturers of computer hard drives you can bet all readers here would give that man respect, and if not respect at least not knock him like he’s a moron. Because of being aware of the man’s credentials you readers would believe that man must posses an intellect of at least average, and maybe even superior intelligence. But I didn’t say that. Instead I said, why don’t you check that particular Bible subject by reading a book on it, the author’s name is Chuck Missler, he’s usually a thorough teacher. You can go back to older posts and read the responses that elicited from some readers. Those were responses that disrespected him as an individual, just as Christ prophesied would happen to those carrying Christ’s message. .
Now, were the comments written about Mr. Missler that were suggesting he’s a quack because the commenter read the book that I suggested and he knows what the book says? No!. Was Mr. Missler ill spoken of because his reasoning ability is lacking? No! Then Why was he disrespected? People comment like they do here fulfilling prophecy. It was foreseen before your birth. At John 15:17-21 Christ stated people would hate Christians and Christ’s message they share because of Christ, and because the message is his message that is hated.
Here’s a thought I’ll leave you with. Why would people hate Christ or his message so much if they believe it’s all a fraud? If it’s all a fraud the things they blame on God logically should all be blamed on man. So why are they so bent out of shape foaming at the mouth, and spending much time debating false information? For instance, I don’t spend any time debating Buddhism because I don’t believe in it. I’m only here because I believe in Christ’s message, and God does not want it misrepresented. Otherwise I’d be doing something else. Could it be their actions were foreseen. But that still doesn’t answer why? Could it be because of the issue between God and the Devil?
tranquillo,
Are these the scriptures you say are
vague?
1.”It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills and all the nations will flow to it.” Isaiah 2:2 ESV Bible
Mountain tops generally represent temples in the Bible.
2. “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in a field. It is the smallest of all seed, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree…Matt 13:31,32 ESV
3. And then the scripture at Zechariah 8:23 you may have alluded to claiming “In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'” ESV
What’s vague about “the highest mountain, lifted up above all the hills,” in scripture #1?
What is vague about Christ’s own words stating. “when it has grown is larger than all the garden plants” in scripture #2?
Are those thoughts vague, or is it that you just want those to be vague? Because the meaning of those metaphors is crystal clear to me? And since they were prophetic then those are examples of fulfilled prophecy which is one aspect about the Bible atheists deny exists. Easy to say vague because people can say anything, and do.
Outandabout,
Your statement makes me think of Revelation 18:7…
“…for in her heart she keeps saying, I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning”. Sounds like WT more and more
Messenger,
One must remember that “Christianity” became the largest religion in the world through much bloodshed and imposition upon the worlds inhabitants. Look at the history of the so called Christian religions that killed indigenous people when conquering their countries, if they didn’t convert! So, Christianity may be proud of how many are identified with their group, but the majority of those persons had no choice in the matter, it was literally a life or death decision, convert or die. I wouldn’t be proud of those statistics. Just my opinion
Hi Messenger,
[I saw a TV program on Darwin yesterday, and it quoted him as claiming he was not an atheist. Maybe Donald J would like to comment on that, or Resister. How about it Donald or Resister, how about sharing what you know about that topic? Did Darwin claim he was not an atheist?]
I appreciate you’re asking Donald and Resister. I hope you won’t mind me jumping in.
In the modern world we talk about the theory of evolution. However, Darwin’s book is titled “On the Origin of Species” followed by “by Means of Natural Selection.” I’ve also seen follow-by as “or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.”
His argument starts from an either/or proposal. Species are immutable productions or, the alternative he argues for: species are the result of a natural selection process.
Throughout the book it is apparent that Darwin is a naturalist and is seeking to understand why life exists as it does in various places. Why being on an island seems to have shaped the land animals there, etc. It has been several years since I read Darwin’s book, but I don’t recall much of him making religious comments. If we accept what he says about the origin of *life*, we would have to say he believes in God.
“Authors of the highest eminence seem to be fully satisfied with the view that each species has been independently *created*. To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the *Creator*, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual. When I view all beings not as special creations, but as the lineal descendants of some few beings which lived long before the first bed of the Silurian system was deposited, they seem to me to become ennobled.”
and finally…
“Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been *originally breathed* into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”
As “Finding Darwin’s God” by Kenneth Miller taught me it is important to appreciate accepting the theory of evolution as a sound fact-respecting scientific theory does not demand atheism. Likewise, at the present, while abiogenesis theories exist, none have reached the status of the theory of evolution. Thus for the origin of species we point to evolution. But for origin of life — we don’t know.
Cheers,
-Randy
You are right…they don’t accept outside authority. They disobey the legal system and reject the sound counsel of the ARC…and the list goes on.
Regards
messsenger,
muslim are soon to outnumber christians. It’s just a matter of time and math. What will than be the largest tree?
tranquilly, I just read something that backs up what you wrote…
Information from Pew Research Center quoted in USAToday April 2, 2015…
“Islam is projected to be the largest religion in the world by 2070. Christianity is expected to suffer the largest net loss among those switching beliefs by 2050, winning over 40 million new adherents while losing 106 million mostly to those unaffiliated with religion. Muslim and Christian populations reach parity by 2050. High fertility rates and youthful population among followers of Islam will drive a 73% jump in Muslim numbers compared with 35% increase among Christians. Muslims are the only major religious group projected to increase faster than the world’s population as a whole.”
Sorry tranquillo, misspelled your name….auto correct malfunction!
Please guys. GET A LIFE. All of u
Erasmino, what do you mean get a life? What is your angle on this?
bad things happen when good people fail to react, Erasmino. Don’t be part of the problem.
Outandabout, WOW, never heard that one about WT denying that germs cause disease (even if it was back in the 30s – it’s still pretty f—ed up!). Gotta say, the Watchtower Society is a lot like President Trump lol – just when you think they’re as crazy as they can get, they prove you wrong! LMAO
Hey Big B, come on, ye of little faith. Did you never read the verses in Revelation where the J-man promises to miraculously provide each and every AmIgettin’ survivor with their own personal luxury condo, complete with electricity, running water, and cherubic servants? – maybe even 72 virgins – Va Va Voom! Sorry, can’t quite recall where that’s written – try checking the “New Light” section. ROTFLMAO ………. As for your query regarding any possible WT policy that may ban hardcore evildoers from membership, again, I’m not 100% sure, but I think Charles Manson and Kim Jong-un have been banned for life. I mean, c’mon, ya gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE.
Basically, the JW’s will take anyone with a pulse.
@ Resister,
Love the tongue in cheek! Very funny, but I do believe that your are correct in your statement, “the Jehovah’s Witnesses will take anyone with a pulse.” Just like the churches in Christendom, you really don’t know who you are sitting next to. If a person, in the congregation, happens to be a pedophile and is caught or admits to the act what are the ramifications of his/ her admittance other than disfellowshipment?
Do the elders report the wrongdoing to the authorities at any stage of their procedures? When the perpetrator is readmitted back into the congregation does that show that he/she has shown true repentance (until next time)? Is there any professional help given or required by the elders before reinstatement?
I believe we all know the answers to the above questions and that is a resounding ‘NO’! Disfellowshipment is only good as a temporary measure; it may slow down the perpetrator inside the congregation but without community awareness made by reporting to the authorities it leaves the community vulnerable to this predator. Which is why the Society is culpable as a pedophiles paradise. Their policies are not in the best interests of the congregation members or community. Their silence on this problem and other problems facing their adherents is deafening. This gives the friends two choices; one leave this hopeless, evil, manipulative cult or continue as they have been namely to remain uninformed, ‘fat, dumb and happy’!
Resister…..I suppose one could argue that they’ll take anybody regardless of whether they have a pulse or not. Look how they’ve hijacked every person who has ever lived and died and promised to resurrect them. Even the dead are used to pull the heart strings and to sign up. Of course, nobody takes into account that the estimated number of people who have ever lived and died is 108 billion and someone has worked out that that will mean when they are all resurrected the population density all over the earth will be five times greater than what China has today. And to top that off, you have to live like that forever and ever seeing the same muggs for trillions of years and somehow not slash your wrists after the first one hundred. That’s not paradise, that’s hell.
didn’t they accept peter Sutcliffe and rose west 2 british notorious murderers. Gotta keep those numbers up by hook or by crook. cheers Ruthlee
60 Minutes here in Australia just did a story on a boys institution in Sydney, aprox 30 years ago where many boys were abused & the guy in charge overlooked what was going on, yes sickening to watch but again great exposure, makes me wonder when more media will get hold of the JW story. Funny we had a bable talk yesterday on the blood topic, & he went on to discuss blood fractions, he used the example that taking whole blood is acin to Fornication, but then widdled it down to Blood Fractions & that yes they do come from blood, but your conscience might allow you to have it, i pointed out to a fellow thinker after the meeting & said well what about having a fraction of fornication, same argument isnt it, i can’t believe people don’t see it.
I’d LOVE a fraction of fornication, Whip it. Where can I get some?
If you were at the meeting what did you make if the WT. it said about the memorial we should keep doing this until Christ returns.
Did he not return in 1914? This is what we are told. Then why do we continue to commemorate the memorial?
They trip themselves up constantly
@ Graham,
Brilliant! The scriptures also say that when Jesus Christ returns in glory the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief. Matt. 24:28-31. Then in the very next paragraph Jesus states that all of things would happen during this generation. Matt. 24: 32-35. And the debate over what Christ meant and at what time period he was referring to goes on unabated!
I haven’t seen anyone beat themselves in grief as far as world leaders are concerned. However, I believe that the “cry of peace and security” was sounded after the Munich conference by Neville Chamberlain on September 30, 1938. The very next year, September 1, 1939, Nazi Germany invaded Poland with Great Britain and France declaring war two days latter. Certainty this, in my mind, qualifies as “destruction would come upon them suddenly ”. 1 Thessalonians 5:3 WW2 qualifies as big time, industrial strength destruction, and one year is pretty darn suddenly, in my book.
I personally have a brief Memorial at my dinner table with my family. I believe that all Christians should partake in the emblems. To let the emblems pass you by is a rejection of the Christ; and I don’t believe he makes a distinction between any of his followers. All, except Judas, were both observers and partakers. Jesus did not partake of the emblems as they represented his own blood and body that was to be sacrificed. Just my take on this.
Because the good ole boys have not been called home yet. They don’t view his return as official until the “new system” starts. My personal belief is that Christ’s return to heaven was the start of the heavenly kingdom and his presence was made known in 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed. That’s just my take on things.
Regards
@ eyes opened;
“Christ’s return to heaven was the start of the heavenly kingdom and his presence was made known in 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed.”
That is a fascinating theory and jives with a great deal of the Olivet prophecy! Wouldn’t that be something if true!
Hi Big B,
It is interesting because Jesus told his followers as well as the Pharisees that they would see him coming with power and glory. You mentioned the tribes… I believe that term was always associated with the Jewish tribes in the scriptures. After Jerusalem was destroyed, can anyone since even identify with the 12 tribes mentioned? So much of what Jesus said would have to have had 1st century fulfillment.
Peace
Big B and Eyesopened. If Jesus did return in the 1st century after saying that those then living would see him coming with power and glory, why is there no scriptural account of this happening? Surely it would have been an event so great that someone would have recorded it.
So was Jesus telling porky pies or was it propaganda written by the Christians of the time that they say what he said?
Why would Jesus return in the 1st century with power and glory only to let the world continue as it was before?
Did he just pop in for a quick visit and then shoot off again, to return yet again sometime 2000 or more years further on in time?
If the writers of scriptures, inspired by God, would have written more clearly then there wouldn’t be so many interpretations of scripture. There would be no need for interpretation at all.
I’m glad that my car workshop manual wasn’t written by any of the guys who contributed to the Bible or I wouldn’t know what goes where, Id be making a real pig’s ear of fixing my car.
Graham,
There is a slight of hand maneuvering of the cones with the WT’s teaching zeroing in on that Greek word parousia, and defining it WT’s way, claiming his second coming means something different.
When Christ spoke of his second coming he wasn’t talking about it like we would a trip describing our coming 3000 miles from Los Angeles to New York. If driving that might take us easily 5 days. Christ wasn’t describing a trip but his presence by the term coming. His second coming is his presence described at Matt 24:3. In slight of hand WT teaches that word parousia is also an invisible presence. But the word doesn’t even imply that much less explicitly state invisibility . The invisibility there is an extra thought added by WT in order to agree with WT theology.
Everyone would agree presence means there at the time. Christ’s second coming means the same thing. He wasn’t talking about a trip.
Here’s a word for word Greek to English rendering of Matt 24:3, “…Tell us, when these things will be; and what the sign of your presence and the termination of the age?”
The sign of Christ’s coming (presence), as Big B’s comment seems to suggest starts much later in scripture than WT and some other theologians claims it does. Read the words on their face, without any preconceived slant on interpretation. Christ first tells his followers what not to be fooled by, which include the wars, earth quakes, food shortages etc. In Luke 21 he states those as “disorders”, but the end is not following all that quickly he said. Why would he say that? He realized people would use destructive world events to claim the end is imminent. Don’t fall for it. WT is among the group of men that uses that tactic probably because JWs were led one by one into that belief by other JWs-all thinking they knew the truth because of it. Instead look to what Christ said the signs would be. In scriptures he actually uses the word we translated to sign a couple times, except for the sign about the destruction of Jerusalem Christ said you will see the sign(s).
See Big B’s first paragraph for further clarification.
The invisible presence equals to a visible absence
Hi Messenger,
Matthew 24:3 says “sign of your presence (parousia)”
The word “presence” can’t be that important. Other gospel writers Mark and Luke record the question without reference to parousia.
“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?” (Mark 13:4)
“Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?” (Luke 21:7)
While probably not that important to Matthew, Mark and Luke, the same cannot be said about Charles Russel. He believed Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. For this view he drew much for the Greek word parousia. The word parousia simply means “a being near” and could be translated “presence,” “coming,” “arrival,” or “advent.” It doesn’t imply being invisible. If such were the case 1 Cor 16:17 and 2 Cor 10:10 where “parousia” is used in reference to a person would make no sense.
Cheers,
-Randy
“Presence” in that question is important because it took the issue under consideration way, way beyond where it started. Christ was only telling them about the destruction of their temple. When they asked about his presence his answer extended to include a sign proceeding his return. Matthew also includes the question that asked when the end of the age will happen. Was that the Jewish age or world’s age. It doesn’t matter, because included in Christ’s answer is a sign before his second coming, and the end of the world’s age. Which brings up a good point another commenter already brought out. If Christ’s 2nd coming occurred after the temple was destroyed in 70 CE then why isn’t there any report of that in scriptures written after that fact? Or a record anywhere of people seeing the sign of Christ-to be seen worldwide?
Christians take the Bible as a whole. So, to them the fact only Matthew included those additional two questions does not make that insignificant to them. But it’s not insignificant when considering it as a piece of literature either, because answering those additional questions extended the answer Christ provided in each account, Matt, Mark, Luke.
Mark was not an apostle, and he only heard of the account 2nd hand, probably from Peter. Luke also was not an apostle. Both heard of the account from someone else, after the fact. Matthew was an apostle, and was he was probably present with the other disciples. He may have included those additional questions while the other writers did not because of that.
whole blood not allowed but fractions are. Where do fractions come from? (whole blood). Where does whole blood come from? Well, donations from worldly people. But if their not with us they are against us. So, these “against us” worldly people are providing the main ingredient which is then fractioned to give us what we need. How convenient.
The Governing Buddies have servants to do everything for them, including educated lawyers to fight their battles.
I wonder if they also have someone to wipe their bums?
Good on you messenger. Don’t let anybody push you around. But hey, talking about proof, facts, etc, isn’t believing the bible is true because it says it true illogical? Circular reasoning. It’s that that lets you down.
How wise of the bible to know that people would reject it’s teachings. Thats because they knew they were writing a corrupt document, I believe, and over the centuries the bible has been re-written and with each re-writing has been slightly refined and altered to cover any means of escape. Add to that the cherry picking of scripture and presto, you have yourself a belief system.
What I would like to know is where is the documentation of Jesus between the manger and adulthood. If this was the son of God there would be an endless stream of paparazzi. How do we know the guy who got crucified was the kid born in the manger.
Crisis of Conscience: The story of the struggle between loyalty to God and loyalty to one’s religion. (5th edition)
by Raymond Franz
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/crisis-of-conscience-raymond-franz/1128103683
http://a.co/0fYFOF4 (Hard cover)
http://a.co/28M2gZM (Paperback)
Also available on Kindle
A wonderful and insightful reading of the workings of the Governing Body by Raymond Franz, a former missionary and Governing Body member and nephew of Fredrick William Franz, former President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. A real eye opener with many WTF?! (excuse the profanity) examples that will leave any thinking Witness in shock. Incredible writing with letters on Watchtower stationery included as proofs from the Watchtower as proof throughout the text. A must read for anyone seeking TTATT (the truth about The Truth).
It was definitely an instrumental reading that challenged the reason for my remaining in this cult. I left the Watchtower not long after reading this. Good call Doc Obvious!
Morris, the whole argument over blood is ridiculous, the talk was total confusion, as i said earlier the argument that Blood Fractions are ok, can be used with immorality, a fraction is ok, I do believe that WT have watered it down to allow people to survive Trauma, i also believe we will see further watering down on other doctrine, & as us older ones die of the new generation of followers will continue to follow without a knowledge of the past.
A little off subject but my wife came home from her weekly meeting saying that the elders made an a statement that “they” are close to reaching 9 million members. That means that they would have grown by almost 800,000 last year. Guess the GB can make any statements that they want since they are not publishing the year book any longer. Does anyone have any numbers for last year?
The Bros are having to pay for handling the pedo problem wrong. I still don’t know why they make it a congregational matter. The should tell the alleged victims to go to the authorities. Then the government is in charge of the situation. I think after all these payouts they will come to that conclusion. Some jackasses here have said in previous posts that I am somehow protecting pedophiles. That is certainly not the case. I am glad to see that the news media is making this situation public. Hopefully it will cause some serious change.
Markie,
If I remember correctly the WT branch lawyer in Australia during the Royal Commission said he was, at that time, receiving 3 to 4 new reports of sexual child abuse from congregations in Australia. I could be wrong and it could have been that many per week, but let’s do some figuring if he said 3-4 per month. If I’m right there were about 60,000 JWs in Australia during the Royal commission hearings. Let’s assume worldwide congregations are reporting similar problems at the same rate.
Here’s the math:
60,000/4 = 8,000,000/X
6/4 = 800/X
6X = 3200
X=533
If congregations worldwide report new child sexual abuse cases at the current rate Australian congregations report those, and WT advises all victims to report to police they will advise about 533 victims to file police reports every month. That’s a lot of people to worry about suing you. It’s 6396 different people each year. A relatively small percentage of that number of people suing WT can financially break it, proving Ricardo correct and me wrong since he believes these lawsuits will ruin WT and I don’t.
Your making alot of assumptions. First of all that all reported cases have merit. Secondly, that the Society has some sort of culpability and that culpability can be proven. Just to name a few.
Going to sleep, it’s been along day trying to fix issues another attorney caused on a families trust.
It’s not about merit. It is an accusation. Then those qualified can investigate. Easiest thing is as soon as report is made you go to the authorities with the little info you have. Then the elders are finished with the police. If they wan to investigate for the congregation so be it. But all the elders books say accusation. This is not proof. Not two witnesses just that an accusation.
Markie,
“Your making alot of assumptions. First of all that all reported cases have merit. Secondly, that the Society has some sort of culpability and that culpability can be proven”
I didn’t remember making those both of those assumptions. So I went back and read my comment and didn’t see that I had. Did I make an assumption you didn’t include though, that WT will be afraid of multiple lawsuits should elders advise 6000 families a year to go and file police reports claiming their children have been sexually molested through associating with Jehovah’s Witnesses? Yes, I made that assumption. I believe any oversight body in any organization would fear that under the same circumstances. My belief is if they don’t fear it they shouldn’t be in that position. For your info for WT to absolve itself of all culpability it would have to advise all reporting families to file police reports not just those elders believe have a valid claim against WT. Because even if WT lawyers and elders understood civil law, they could never know exactly what will come out in every investigation by police. Also, WT would have to change its child protection policies to those that satisfy civil law.
WT has already lost court decisions because of its child protection policies. That’s why its at risk. So, can “culpability can be proven,” as you state? It already has. And WT cannot change the past. And that makes WT guilty in similar cases to those already decided against it because of stare decisis, past court decisions. And we all know WT pretty much has the same policies world wide, so how do you reason it could escape future judgments from many, many courts if these claims are filed. It cannot. There is no successful way out of this problem for WT.
Not that WT is a commercial company, but when companies get in big trouble they can usually take multiple routes in dealing with their big problem. When the trouble is big enough the biggest problem they have is that any route they take is a losing proposition. That’s why we’re discussing what we think WT should do. There is nothing it can do that doesn’t cost it a lot. If the number of lawsuits filed trickles and disappears WT will be OK. But WT cannot fully control the number of cases. Telling 6000 people a year to file a police report is, to a strictly conventional thinker, one move a reasonable person could believe will increase the suits. If WT doesn’t trust the molested JWs, and it doesn’t trust God to help it out of this problem, then I’d bet it will seriously consider your recommendation and probably not do that.
WT is making slow changes to its policies. Remember because these suits are considered a money issue by WT, not a moral issue (if so it would at the bare minimum apologize sometimes!), everything concerning those policy changes is done out for money considerations. Once WT gets it policies in line with civil law decisions it might do what you suggest. But to abruptly change all policies is in a way an admission of guilt that can be used in court for having faulty policies. I don’t see a way out because the number of victims keep stacking up.
Easier to solve a where’s Waldo puzzle than figure out what can help WT other than more money. I cannot figure it out.
Messenger…….I’ve had a look at your friends Chuck Missler and Lee Strobel and am not impressed with what I found. Lee Strobel was not an investigative journalist, he was a law reporter. Whether he was ever an Atheist at all is in doubt and I can tell you that as a Atheist myself we would never say we want god to be wrong because we’re enjoying our hedonism, but!… Christians are of the mind that that’s what we think and that’s how he gave himself away on that. He just using the being an Atheist bit to give his book more clout. Also, never once does he interview a skeptic. All his sources are Christian, so what the hell do you expect!? But he really blows himself out of the water when he enlists an archaeologist Jerry Vardaman to help solve a problem between Luke 2: 1-2 and Matthew 2 1-3. regarding the rule of Quirinius. Vardaman claims to have found coins from the Roman era with ‘microletters’ inscribed on them, invisible to the naked eye but seen only by Vardman and never once has he produced the coins for anyone to see but instead has done produced handwritten drawings of what he says they look like. Vardman is described by other professionals as insane and his claims are inline with that of Joseph Smith and his gold tablets that nobody has ever seen. And there;s more too.
Chuck Missler has been accused of and admitted plagiarism from several authors and as a result has given proceeds from said books to charity.
Obviously being intelligent and Christian didn’t preclude these two from being dishonest charlatans with their eyes on the money.
and not only that, I think you’ll find that Chuck was responsible for starting the Y2K bug theory that was supposed to bring the world to a standstill. Do you still trust his judgement, messenger? Desperate times for desperate people.
Ok outandabout
I never said those were my friends, that I’m their follower or anything like that, as you stated a couple times now. I referred you to specific items they have some knowledge about. So, why are you looking up other info about them, instead of what I suggested? Can you, for instance, comment on what you read about the Bible code? It doesn’t appear you read about it at all. My statement to you was that I have not looked into that subject myself, but if true it might provide proof to you the Bible is inspired.
Strobel was an atheist like yourself that changed after doing investigative journalism. I saw a movie about him, that’s all. I bought his book but haven’t read it yet. I might never read it, because I don’t need to be convinced about real Christianity.
I have far more contact with you than those two so why should I care if one was indicted for using someone else’s writings without giving him any credit? Why have you not looked at the code?
My comment above mentioning Missler was not about Missler’s ability. If I cared about that I would have included his credentials when I suggested you check out his Bible code. The issue in that comment centered on fulfilled Bible prophecy observed by all here, because commenters like you and others that are even worse feel compelled to put down the Bible, Christianity, and even Christians as individuals. Missler was cited as an a example of that.
Messenger…..you have included Misslers credentials here, so you are impressed with him. You’re holding him up as an example of a christian who is so intelligent he can’t possibly be wrong. No worries, buddy. You’re just as human as the rest of us.
About Stephen Hawking……is there a man who in a position like his and with an intellect his who wouldn’t love to have a second chance at life? You can bet your bottom dollar he would have been looking for god. He would have been in a far superior position than you or I to actually judge whether or not there was a god, and what did he decide? He chose honesty.
You may get the impression that all I want to do is diss you. I’m here because I have a JW family who need protecting from lies because there’s already been a close call with a transfusion. If you’re going to pulling hard one way, I’ll be pulling hard the other. Nothing personal.
Now please give me the bible code you mentioned so I can diss it with pleasure. Bible codes? Are you serious? Are you an A student or a conspiracy theorist? Same line of thinking going on in the brain, messenger. Does God want us to know him or not? Well why would he go out of his way to deliberately deceive us with freakin’ codes? Think, man! Think!
That’s right outandabout, he couldn’t possibly be wrong. I can’t possible be wrong. You can’t possibly be wrong. The governing body can’t possible be wrong, neither could Lloyd, John, Covert, Big B, Ricardo, or Resister. We’re all right. Correct! Everyone I ever mentioned in any comment I wrote here couldn’t ever have been wrong; no there is no possibility of it; none of those could ever have possibly been wrong. That’s always been my position whenever I’ve named anyone in any comment I’ve made on this site. You’re correct.
Messenger, I think that we all see what we want to see. But a religious person has a bigger bias because the Bible MUST be right and MUST be God’s word. So one concentates on the 10% of the Bible that confirms his/her bias. But honestly when I read Numbers 5:11 and on… God himself is delivering this fine piece of witchcraft, addressed obviously only against women… well if you can explain that to me…. oh and also Psalm 82 deserves some explaination because is a really interesting piece of writing.
It’s only a matter of time. That’s why there is such desperation on the part of the Watchtower Society as their empire falls all around them. I only hope that God’s people are settled in their own hearts…www.watchtowercriminals.blogspot.com:
“John 10:14 reassures us that Jesus representing his father as the Good Shepard does “…know my sheep and am known of mine” and always did!
“FAITHFUL and WISE or DISCRETE Slave or Servant” will “wisely” (discretely) discern man’s latest words from God’s age old pure text and faithfully adhere to it! (3John1:11) What’s more, he will discretely differentiate the commands of men from those of his creator and remain faithful only to Jah knowing that his life and the lives of those in his charge are at stake (1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-28). “
I don’t know why my link didn’t embed (I have my suspicions) http://www.watchtowercriminals.blogspot.com but if it needs to be copied and pasted into a new window then by all means do that….
tranquillo
Great job on your use of the English language. I took Spanish I and II then skipped III and took Spanish IV in high school. But the only thing I can remember form those classes is the first half of the first page in Spanish I. The last sentence half way down that page was translating “una chicka muy bonita.” That’s a true story, not a joke.
@ Randy G
The documentary I saw said Darwin’s wife remained a Christian though he didn’t. When she was about to give birth to one of her children another daughter got deathly sick. Darwin took their sick child to a doctor. I think they said the doctor was about 150 miles from their home. Darwin returned home leaving his daughter with the doctor because his wife was about to give birth. Back at home they received word their daughter died at the doctor’s place. The movie implied that incident caused Darwin to abandon Christianity, while still believing in a god.
Hi Messenger,
[Back at home they received word their daughter died at the doctor’s place. The movie implied that incident caused Darwin to abandon Christianity, while still believing in a god.]
That could be. I have heard this, but only in passing. Otherwise I don’t know much about Darwin’s life. Significant events such as marriage, loss of a job, birth of a child or death of a loved one, especially an innocent child, can result in a period of reflection and search for meaning. I know in my own case that was true. When my wife got pregnant we had been missing most meetings, but this news prompted us to go back to the Kingdom Hall. At the time I would have said that it wasn’t fair to ask a child to take on the burden of being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses without us parents being fully involved.
My acceptance of the theory of evolution and my own lack of belief in God developed over many years. Probably from 1995 marriage-of-the-lamb WT articles. But I only took some action when I resigned as an elder in 2005. It was the shock of being out in service and having the COBE tell me that the elders and the CO had decided that my oldest daughter would be the target of a marking talk that brought me to the sudden realization that I could not continue in a faith that endanger the life of my child.
Thus I think there are two main inputs to these items. Emotion and objective philosophy. The thought that we could one day be reunited with a child we lose in death either in heaven or on paradise earth could easily generate powerful emotions. Or the alternative of being told that the death of child fits into some inscrutable divine plan could cause someone reject the notion, and belief in God along with it, in disgust.
Those attracted to philosophy will seek out the sages and sit at their feet, listen and draw conclusions. Bible writers could fit that role as do Plato, Socrates and Nietzsche. The philosopher will seek a framework of understanding that is able to embrace all claims and events in consistent way that makes sense.
However, not everyone is interested in philosophy. Thus I think some atheists such as Dawkins wind up surprised that other eminent scientists such as Einstein or Seven J. Gould actually don’t show that much interest in the question of the existence of God — even if they themselves are nominal atheists. Einstein’s mind is completely consumed with the problems of field equations and the pursuit of a unified theory that would triumph over quantum theory, that he felt was incomplete.
Thus in the end the believer and non-believer may be more alone than they realize. If I want to derive my atheism from Darwin or Einstein I may not find it. If I look to Dawkins I may find more of a battle between evolutionists vs creationists than much philosophy. Likewise if the believer depends too heavily on another he may just wind up the slave of a master, doing things, not out of internal belief, but from mere obedience.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Messenger,
Just a quick note to let you know I did reply on 3/14. Alas, my response is still awaiting moderation.
Cheers,
-Randy
RIP Stephen Hawking
A man who knew a lot more about God than any clergyman (even though he was a professed atheist).
I can’t get my cut & paste to work, so I’ll just try to paraphrase something he once said:
‘Religion and science are very different. Religion is based on authority, whereas science is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works.’
Resister. How do you know that Stephen Hawkiing knew more about God than any clergyman? Can your claim be proven?
‘Science will win because it works’. What is this, a contest between religion and science? Are there not scientists who believe in God?
Some people tend to make heros and idols out of other humans, like adolescents who look up to so-called pop stars. Yes, Stephen Hawkings has died, but so has Ken Dodd and Bruce Forsyth.
Will science solve the problem of child abuse?
This problem is getting worse my ex husband has sexually abuse three girls in past two being my daughters his step daughters, and now being told my police he is a serious danger to my daughter ,his son and any grandchildren, once again elders don’t want to know
Susan armitage. Get away as far as you can from the evil Watchtower and its pig swill for brains elders. Take everything to the police and get their protection. If your ex husband is guilty of what you say then he should be put behind bars. Fight with all you’ve got against this animal, seek out support groups who will protect you and your loved ones, they will fight along side of you so that you don’t have to battle this monster alone.
Susan,
Take this to a lawyer. You and/or your daughters might have a good legal case against WT. In the States Zalkin Law Firm [Phone: (858) 259-3011] is handling multiple cases against WT across the USA. If he takes the case I believe you’ll get a couple hundred thousand on the low side and probably a lot more. There’s a statute of limitation on this type of crime in many USA states, so move fast before a statute of limitation prohibits you from suing.
If WT elders move against you to remove you, listen to some others pastors in other denominations. WT lied to us about them. There are many Christians there also. If you don’t check that out you cannot know, but it’s fairly easy to see if you do check it out.
Best wishes to you.
Hi I Foster,
To try to answer your question…the destruction of Jerusalem was the event that proved Jesus coming with power and glory. He said their house would be abandoned and indeed it was, no more to have a representative of God on an earthly throne. The first three chapters of Revelation appear to be counsel for then existing congregations to survive that coming destruction while the rest of Revelation is the future happening of Jerusalem’s destruction. The “Works of Josephus” confirm events during the destruction that were written about in Revelation. One example is when they stand back and cry, saying “too bad” when Babylon the great is destroyed. General Titus and some of his men stood back and cried as the temple at Jerusalem burned. That’s just one example. Ask yourself, what could be more “Babylonish” than yelling for your promised Messiah to be impaled while shouting “we have no king but Caesar”? Jesus referred to the religious leaders of his day as the killer of the prophets and that is also how the harlot in Revelation is described. Of course the only way this works is if Revelation were written pre-70. My personal belief is that it was. There seems to be no real confirmation of the time it was written, only traditionally accepted dates. What was prophesied about the destruction of Babylon the Great, in Revelation, and what history records of Jerusalem’s destruction seem to line up. All this would mean that Jerusalem’s destruction was Armageddon and we are in the Bible’s “new system” and it’s been a lot longer than 1000 years, so many more questions arise. I ponder them all the time. I hope my response is coherent, lol. Perhaps I went into too much detail, but I felt that maybe some additional information would help explain my answer to you.
To all, have a great day
Now on to the topic of the article… I am glad for all the exposure the org is getting and hope it continues until all the harmful, God-dishonoring practices are exposed to the point that they can no longer be ignored and hidden from the masses. Attention to the harmful, dangerous, and death dealing practices needs as much exposure as possible. Keep it coming.
@ eyes opened;
After a brief visit by a couple of my former elders, two weeks ago, I am firmly convinced that their ignorance of the problems that the Watchtower faces borders between fantastic stupidity bordering on the idiotic. They truly do not want to be informed of the pedophile problems, the court judgements to the tune of 10’s of millions of dollars or anything else.
They are infuriatingly stupid Jehovah’s Witness apologists and will remain that way until they want to smarten up. By the time they wise up, if ever, their precious Organization will be reduced in membership, to a sad handful of dimwits and financially bankrupt. Just a matter of time as more news services worldwide expose them for the pedophile protecting cult they truly are.
Couldn’t agree more, eyes opened & Big B.
ADVERTISE ADVERTISE ADVERTISE !!!
Funny you should mention news services exposing them. I just now heard on the TV news a little snippet about a “religious group” sending out Facebook “condolences” and messages of Resurrection to families of the recently deceased, though the deceased and their families were complete strangers to the senders of the messages. I was like, “Please let it be the Jehovas, Please let it be the Jehovas!” Guess what? My “prayer” was answered! LOL … It was the Jehovas! LMAO Apparently these dimwits are now looking at the obituaries and tracking down the facebook pages of the relatives, and “witnessing” to them. I am absolutely positive they count this as “service” time, though, of course, that bit of intelligence was not brought out in the report. A couple of the recipients of these messages were interviewed though, stating, OBVIOUSLY (lol), that they found it disgusting, intrusive, and bordering on traumatic. The press got a hold of WT. Watchturd’s response was basically, ‘We do not promote this kind of action, however, if individuals choose to share their faith with others this way, that’s their choice.’
Typical.
Not a huge deal, but good to see that WT is no longer “off limits”.
As for my opinion of “elders” LOL – sorry, I really get a kick out of that term, especially here in the 21st Century – I really enjoyed outandabout’s comparison to JELLYFISH – brainless, heartless, spineless… Spot on.
I have another one, maybe not as poignant, but still accurate. I call them “hovercraft”. Hovercraft? That’s right. Why? ‘Cause they glide along on nothing but a cushion of air. So…what happens when that bubble bursts? Ha ha ha. Stay tuned.
Joseph did not report Mary to the elders. He sat on the information until he had ‘The dream’
@ I Forester
Sorry, what I should have said was that Stephen Hawking knew a lot more about God than any theologian. “Theologian” is a much broader term, don’t you think?
As for your query regarding whether science will solve the problem of child abuse, I can’t say. Though Police Science, if applied effectively, will certainly do some good, if members of the community are willing to cooperate. Other than that, all I can say is that I haven’t heard of any rampant child abuse problems within the scientific community, unless you know something I dont.
PS … And try to spell the man’s name right. He just passed away, FCS.
Resister. Can you prove your claim that Stephen Hawking knew more about God than any theologian? Did he ever make this claim for himself?
Your claim has no scientific basis and is just an opinion.
Sorry that I added an ‘s’ to the end of Hawking, typing error. I did spell his name right earlier in my comment. Please don’t lose any sleep about it. But I guess you were so upset about it that you had to get your childish revenge by spelling my name wrongly.
Look again, Einstein. Unless I’m seeing double, you gave him 2 i’s the first time. So, OH-for-2. Keep trying, Champ. You’ll get it right one day.
OK … Make that 1-for-3. I can admit when I’m wrong, which isn’t very often.
Revenge IS a dish best served childish.
:D
Resister. Wow! Bully for you, strike up the band and shout it from the roof tops. Beat your chest and celebrate with your buddies over your score keeping.
You really are a nit picking boring fellow Resister. What a high opinion you have of yourself that you are not wrong very often, you’re like that other self- congratulatory buffoon Richard Dawkins.
No, Froster, I just have a right to express myself, as you do. If your fragile little snowflake emotions can’t handle it, too bad for you. If you can’t handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. And I promise you, things WILL get hotter. Stop whining and grow a pair. Frankly, I think you’re just too scared to go down the Rabbit Hole. If that’s the case, I suggest you just go back to your nursery rhymes. Things will be a lot simpler that way.
[ “@ I Forester “] Resister,
Is spelling an issue? Check my work too, and yours also. Your commenter’s name is not I Forester. You can be my editor if you’d like. I don’t like that work. .
And also, you bring up someone else’s name and his insignificant quote, a person that you think was smart. Name dropping doesn’t prove a thing. Neither do insignificant quotes. An insignificant quote from a genius is not as insightful as a significant quote from a moron.
And no, though you haven’t asked me, though I have been asked by outandabout the idea you presented to I Foster. My response: I don’t admire those you look up to. While not bragging (and if you think I’m bragging ponder if I care) I’ve always been able to hang with the people running at the top in any game I’ve been involved in, often as the top dog. If you were not able to do that don’t feel so bad, but instead realize it’s really not that important. Which also means name dropping does not move the minds of successful people. Especially by dropping the name of someone who might have been somewhat successful in one field while he is ignorant in the field under discussion. And for people like me name dropping in a field under discussion doesn’t mean much unless the name is God or Christ.
In debates facts talk and BS walks. Good to see that you are dropping some facts now, at least ones about WT, though nothing insightful about any other discussions here. Citing Stephen Who (?) can’t help you here.
Pretty please Resister will you check my spelling and grammar?
Just watched The Hurt Locker on the TV. Never went to see it at the theater ’cause I thought it would be boring. Quite the contrary. Good film, if you’re into that sort of thing (more of a guy flick – though it was directed by a lady). What hit me was the lengths people (in this case, terrorists) are willing to go to, based solely on a belief they have inside their heads. Of course, I know this is not news to anyone. After all, all anyone has to do is look at, oh I don’t know,… HISTORY.
Jehovah is a revealer of secrets.
I think its funny they have been bringing out the problem with the priests for years and now its bitten them in the ass. But I don’t think there will ever be enough lawsuits to break the bank at headquarters. And I don’t think they are going anywhere in the near future. I am sure they will have some new light and come up with the Methuselah generation Growth may have slowed down in some countries but they will come up with something to overcome all the bad press on the internet. Its not the first time things have slowed down. I think all the disgruntled exJWs on here are just full of wishful thinking. Sorry.
Yeah Markie, I’m sure you would just LOVE the little WT Snowflake world to go on and on forever. Methinks YOU shall be the one who is disappointed. Ha ha ha ha ha ha … Ha ha
Resister, Just out of curiosity, were you raised as a JW and perhaps home schooled? You don’t seem to understand very well. You can’t see the sarcasm in my post? Or was this just another one of your knee jerk reaction? My I suggestion to you is to take some remedial reading comprehension courses, it couldn’t hurt. Your making my elders look smart.
Let me explain, the “Methuselah generation” was meant to be a joke. He lived almost a thousand years. So the society could come up with new light and realize a generation could be a thousand years and now with our new “over lapping generations” the end could now be almost two thousand years away. So they are good to go.
You’re probably right. WT has a good running start with a message and delivery system proven to work. If Christ’s kingdom does not bring the end in our lifetimes WT will probably still be here when the last one of us dies. One advantage its message has is the long periods of time it takes for its predictions to fail. By the time one fails a whole generation has invested 30 years into the organization. All that time they’re hearing teachings that reinforce in their beliefs the idea that all opposing beliefs are false. When WT changes a timeline or major belief the older ones stay because of that situation, and the younger ones accept the new belief because of having a limited history with WT.
To break free from WT one has to become aware that WT members claiming to be what it claims is the “the faithful and discreet slave” are not that. Shy of that the organization has a hold on its members.
@Messenger, the Guardian is asking for anyone who has been sexually abused by Witnesses to contact the newspaper. That could lead to a class action with big payout, don’t you think?
Tranquillo, nice point about religious folks being biased because, in their minds, the bible MUST be right and MUST be God’s word. How very true. Just demonstrates the contrast, A-GAIN lol, between religion and science. Sure, over the millennia, religious doctrine has been tweaked now and then. Watchtower does it all the time. LOL But by and large, basic doctrine and many of the smaller details remain exactly the same. Whereas science is fluid, dynamic. Ever-changing with every new discovery, every new “light”, if you will. That’s basically the definition of the Scientific Method – observation, hypothesis, experimentation, conclusion. NOT observation, hypothesis, experimentation, I-don’t-like-the-results-of-my-experiment-so-I’ll-just-go-back-to-my-original-beliefs. One obvious example: science determined the Earth is round, not flat. And of course, religion resisted that.
And let’s not forget, even though fundamentalists like to attack science, science is not an entity, or a religion, or even a belief system. It is, and always has been, simply the accumulation of KNOWLEDGE. FACTS. REALITY. THAT WHICH IS. THAT WHICH EXISTS. That’s all.
Resister, I was in fact saying that we are all biased, often unknowingly. That’s the worst bias because you can’t detect it in yourself. It is very interesting however how we can really read things that aren’t written… like the idea that adultery is betraying your spouse… which is not what the Bible says.
“Disgruntled ex JWs”, the ultimate contradiction
In terms, it’s like saying . A man who has been
given the all clear is p—-d off because he no
longer has cancer !
Ha!
blimmen heck, Ted, you really have woken up! Good to have the brain working, aye? Here;s one from Ricky Gervais – fundamentalist are anti abortion right from the moment of conception and right up to the point where the kid turns out to be gay and then they want to kill it. So that got me thinking about what is going to happen when a kid can be diagnosed as gay in the womb. Would a fundamentalist abort it? Or would they allow it to be born, try to persuade it to be ‘normal’ and have the kid growing up a confused wreck and eventually committing suicide.
The more they try to bring the bible into line with reality, the harder it gets. Some serious ‘new light’, ( read ‘evolution of belief’), is needed.
Tranquillo
“But honestly when I read Numbers 5:11 and on… God himself is delivering this fine piece of witchcraft, addressed obviously only against women… well if you can explain that to me…”
Your quote above buddy. That is not a rejection of the Bible based on reason. It is a rejection of the Bible based on the same motivations the Devil has for not following God. There is no difference between your motivations and his. You just don’t want to follow God. Reason and facts have nothing to do with it except that you reject the behaviors God demands of you. That’s the one thing that you’re claiming there that is factual.
The same applies to outandabout. And outandabout believes that applies to all atheists, so I guess that includes Resister if what outandabout believes is true, and Donald J also. Outandabout wrote, “I can tell you that as a Atheist myself we would never say we want god to be wrong because we’re enjoying our hedonism.” He not only admits he wants to practice hedonism, he thinks you and all atheists do. And he doesn’t care if God is right or wrong because, he wants his hedonism per his own statement.
Well who then is here sucking the tit so to speak? I know God exists as the god in the Bible. Therefore, I don’t argue against other religions. Because why should I? I share the Bible message, and if someone else doesn’t accept it and stays in another religion well, what’s it to me?
You on the other hand argue against a religion you claim not to believe in. Why should you? Do you do the same with Islam on a regular basis? Could it be that you are the ones that are afraid the Bible is correct, and that you are accountable to its god? Are you afraid that one day you’ll stand before Jesus, or what are you afraid of that’s causing you to put forth such arguments, without any facts to make your points? If you’re afraid I can see a reason for your points. People afraid of suffering might gather others in like circumstance for comfort. And maybe you do that to reinforce in your mind you won’t see God, hoping you don’t. I see no other logical reason for your position.
Here’s a question. If you could be shown intellectually that the Bible’s miracles happened would you follow its god? According to your quoted statements above it seems not. It looks more like you have an ‘I hate daddy god complex,’ and ‘I don’t want to do what daddy god says’ complex. One devilish Bible character shared those same feelings.
messenger, well I’m a bit disappointed by your answer… you did try to prove that the Bible is true by showing that Genesis is scientifical and that there are prophecies becoming true.
Then I do ask you something about the Bible and you tell me that I’m not factual and also pretend to know my motivations. Then starting to move me emotionally and with sense of guilt.
indeed it is a fact that God gave such a nonsensical instruction in Numbers 5:11 and you don’t want to discuss it. Fine. Instead of addressing the issue you attack my person.
You keep on telling others to keep on facts and accuse everybody of having bad motivations. When someone snares back to you, you are quick to yell “persecution”.
Fine.
Love
tranquillo
Your comment confirms my statement. I could start by saying I didn’t try to prove anything in Genesis, the points I brought out are pure facts, you see them as someone trying to prove something because you don’t like God’s actions as you expressed above with “witchcraft by God”. So, quit saying I impute some motive to you that you did not directly exhibit in your comment.
You asked me to explain something to you. But, what you mean is that I should justify it to you don’t you? Do you understand it or not? Because if you know what it says, there is nothing for me to do, rather nothing I’m willing to do. I’m not going to justify God’s behavior to you.
I believe you do know what those scriptures say. That being true you know what your motivations are. Your comment is clear, you don’t agree with God’s actions. Isn’t that so? Or am I wrong and is it you really don’t understand? Doubtful! Your comments claims, I don’t like this, so let’s talk about it because a good God wouldn’t do that. Unless you believe a good God does things you don’t like. Which is it?
As for the claim, in it you present no evidence. That’s true. Your opinion about God’s behavior is not related to the Bible’s truthfulness. And that’s what you want me to consider in those scriptures. Your dislike of God’s actions is exactly what Satan does, also with sly remarks, as recorded in Genesis, “tell me, is it really so, ” like yours, could you explain why God did that? No I won’t. You decide why he might have done those things.
Your opinion is like an ‘I don’t like daddy’ complex. Hey, if you don’t like daddy, does that mean he’s not there? Or that he didn’t say something? Yes you have a weak argument as an atheist. I’m not explaining those scriptures to you. I’ve studied atheism in college, writing a report on it which involved reading three books on the arguments for a no God belief. If someone doesn’t like God, I don’t try to convince them to like him. Pay your money, take your choices, and pay the piper for your choices.
@ Ricardo,
I think big class actions are coming down the pike. If WT New York Bethel ever turns over its docs I believe that will speed up the process. I can’t think of a way WT can prevent the class actions. If they change all their policies, the cases become even easier to win. If they don’t WT prolongs the inevitable.
take care Ricardo
Ok messenger. Calling witchcraft that magical procedure is just using the appropriate word.
You won the contest in writing lenght. Keep on believing you knoew the reasons of other people
Enjoy your life
Best
Tranquillo
“But honestly when I read Numbers 5:11 and on… God himself is delivering this fine piece of witchcraft, addressed obviously only against women… well if you can explain that to me…”
Your quote above Tranquillo. That is not a rejection of the Bible based on reason. It is a rejection of the Bible based on the same motivations the Devil has for not following God. There is no difference between your motivations and his. You just don’t want to follow God. Reason and facts have nothing to do with it except that you reject the behaviors God demands of you. That’s the one thing that you’re claiming there that is factual.
The same applies to outandabout. And outandabout believes that applies to all atheists, so I guess that includes Resister if what outandabout believes is true, and Donald J also. Outandabout wrote, “I can tell you that as a Atheist myself we would never say we want god to be wrong because we’re enjoying our hedonism.” He not only admits he wants to practice hedonism, he thinks you and all atheists do. And he doesn’t care if God is right or wrong because, he wants his hedonism per his own statement.
I know God exists as the god in the Bible. Therefore, I don’t argue against other religions. Because why should I? I share the Bible message, and if someone else doesn’t accept it and stays in another religion or an atheist, well, what’s it to me?
You on the other hand argue against a religion you claim not to believe in. Outandabout claims to do so because of a relative facing the JW blood issue, and yet he argues against all Christian sects, including those having no restrictions on transfusions. Why should you both do so in all earnestness? Do you do the same with Islam on a regular basis?
Could it be that you are the ones that are afraid the Bible is correct, and that you are accountable to its god? Are you afraid that one day you’ll stand before Jesus, or what are you afraid of that’s causing you to put forth such arguments? If you’re afraid I can see a reason for your points. People afraid of suffering might gather others in like circumstance for comfort. And maybe you do that to reinforce in your mind you won’t see God, hoping you don’t. I see no other logical reason for your position.
Here’s a question. If you could be shown intellectually that the Bible’s miracles happened would you follow its god? According to your quoted statements above it seems not. If this comment comes in back to back with a similar one please disregard the other. It might have been sensored by God’s hand, as it is held in limbo at this time.
Feel free to point out any and all words that I was not capable of correctly spelling Resister. And thanks in advance for your editing.