Former Jehovah’s Witness calls out Serena Williams’ double standards over women’s rights.
avatar

Serena Williams, Wimbledon tennis champion and international sports personality, recently posted an open letter in the Guardian newspaper.

Entitled “We must continue to dream big” Serena’s letter sounds a call to action to address issues of gender inequality that affect women throughout the world. In part her letter states;

I was fortunate to have a family that supported my dream and encouraged me to follow it. I learned not to be afraid. I learned how important it is to fight for a dream and, most importantly, to dream big. My fight began when I was three and I haven’t taken a break since.

But as we know, too often women are not supported enough or are discouraged from choosing their path. I hope together we can change that. For me, it was a question of resilience. What others marked as flaws or disadvantages about myself – my race, my gender – I embraced as fuel for my success. I never let anything or anyone define me or my potential. I controlled my future.

Later in the letter she says:

As we know, women have to break down many barriers on the road to success. One of those barriers is the way we are constantly reminded we are not men, as if it is a flaw. People call me one of the “world’s greatest female athletes”. Do they say LeBron is one of the world’s best male athletes? Is Tiger? Federer? Why not? They are certainly not female. We should never let this go unchallenged. We should always be judged by our achievements, not by our gender.

These are laudable statements, and many would support them.

So what’s the problem?

The problem is that Serena Williams is also a vocal proponent of the Jehovah’s Witness religion, and has repeatedly associated herself with it, even to the extent of frequently thanking Jehovah for winning tennis matches for her. And Jehovah’s Witness teachings emphatically disagree with almost everything she says. Women in the Witness religion are indeed treated very much in the way that Williams rails against; judged and restricted very much by their gender and not their abilities or dreams.

Equality for me but not for thee

This apparent double standard has not gone un-noticed by many ex-JW women, and one of them, activist Lydia Finch, has written an open letter in response. 

Finch also reads the letter online the youtube video below.

There has been online coverage of the letter here.

Her letter is very supportive of Williams achievements and of her call for the greater empowerment of women, and of the need to address inequalities of opportunity and of the treatment of girls.

However, Finch’s letter points out that virtually all of the goals Williams supports are virtually impossible for women growing up in the Jehovah’s Witness faith. Her letter gives a long list ways in which a woman in the JW faith is restricted and oppressed, including:

All children raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses are strongly discouraged from attending higher education. Should their parents ignore this command, they may be sanctioned. If their father is an elder (a church leader) he may be removed from his position….

…She will be strongly discouraged from the pursuit of all extracurricular activities, including sports. A family that ignores this stance may face sanctions from church leaders…

…She will encounter daily indoctrination, teaching her that she should submit to male headship in all things, be it the headship of her husband or the headship of the all male church elders. She will be taught that she is not the equal of a man, and that her primary role is that of a helper, not leader or a decision maker. She will be told that her ideal position in is in the home…

Finch finishes her letter by calling on Williams to use her privileged status as an international celebrity to become a force for reform within her religion or, at the very least, to become less confused about the issue and to stop promoting a religion that oppresses woman if she wishes to champion the cause of women’s rights.

 

Follow me on twitter @covertfade

Follow Lydia Finch on twitter @finchlydia

Bookmark the permalink.

164 Responses to Former Jehovah’s Witness calls out Serena Williams’ double standards over women’s rights.

  1. twistedsister69 says:

    Typical celebrity privilege, in OR out of WT. Serena Williams is a confused young woman. Reminds me of the old expression, “playing both sides against the middle”. Very self-serving (and disappointing) to express all those great things, and simultaneously support an organization and ideology that is diametrically opposed to them. Also quite bizarre. Something only a celeb can get away with. Serena, get your s*** together.

    • Ex-Witness says:

      You know what whomever made that comment to Serena Williams. You need to get your jealous s… together are you a white exjw . Serena do what India Arie sing Just do you . The hell with racial comments. We serve a awesome God and his name is Jehovah. You and your sister Venus doing a good JOB in so many ways Jehovah is pride of them acknowledging him . I’ll see you both on the other side Thanks for acknowledge Jehovah .

      • d says:

        This has nothing to do with the race of the EXJW. She is not jealous but rather pointing out the hypocrisy of endorsing a manmade organization that oppresses women of all races while enjoying a career that JWs are not allowed to have.

      • Ricardo says:

        @Ex-Witness, could you please explain why Jehovah answers Serena’s prayers and enables her to win a tennis game, but did not answer the prayer of the little girl mentioned at the Australian Royal Commission? The little girl prayed and prayed and prayed to Jehovah to please send some angels to protect her from her father abusing her.

        The little girl’s prayers were not answered. Which is more important? For a little girl to be protected? Or for Serena to win a tennis match?

        It is really so ridiculous to thank Jehovah. Did Jehovah also answer Federer’s prayers? There is such a lack of logic in this.

        As witnesses we are told from a young age not to participate in competitive sport. Serena does not obey Jehovah’s guidance, and yet thinks she is blessed by Jehovah. This is absolute madness.

        This is not a racist rant. No mention of race is mentioned. This is not sexist, either. And neither am I against her religion, as I am apparently her spiritual brother.

        But I am against hypocrisy. So as witnesses we should be appalled by this token thanks to Jehovah, while Serena is disobeying the instructions given to us and even dating a worldly man. If she is not obeying Jehovah, is he really blessing her with wins?

        I wish she would just thank God privately, and not make such an embarrassing spectacle of it.

        • Johnny Walker says:

          @Ricardo – it’s because J* is a God of Tennis and winners. Had the little girl been a winner, her prayers would have been answered too.

      • Wilhelmina says:

        Exwitness, Serene Williams might be an excellent tennis player but does not have a brain cell of wisdom and understanding in her head even a fool can see that Jehovah does not support one for tennis playing and not another because she is no one from no where, and stop making this a RACIST rant, this is not racist, this should be clear to you !

    • twistedsister69 says:

      Wasn’t it Abe Lincoln who said, “You can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time”.

    • My2cents says:

      It’s funny half the things she mentioned are discouraged for men and women, and wouldn’t be cause for being shunned, such as higher school and sports. It’s not required to be adhered to in order to serve Jehovah it’s encouraged and possibly a great protection. Women are never told their place is in the home by the organization. But it is God’s laws that do not accept abortion. But if someone doesn’t want to accept those laws that’s their choice, being “shunned” also doesn’t have to be permanent for decisions you repent from. But we always have the freedom to choose anything, people would like their choices consequence free. But if you get an abortion, doesn’t that affect your life forever, and of course the life you abort, doesn’t it affect the father’s life. Those are consequences. If you don’t want to serve God then don’t, but don’t also complain about as if Christian organizations should make their own rules and their should be no consequences.

  2. Joe says:

    QUOTE: People call me one of the “world’s greatest female athletes”. Do they say LeBron is one of the world’s best male athletes? Is Tiger? Federer? Why not?

    “These are laudable statements, and many would support them.”

    I’m sorry, but what is this? She quite happily competes in “Female” tennis tournaments, right? No complaints there? Here’s an idea – why not try out in a Male full set tennis match against Federer and then you will know why. Apart from endurance, there can be a difference of over 30mph in the fastest serves – ouch! Now, dig up the best female golfer you can find and try out against Tiger Woods and you will have your answer. Get the fastest female sprinter you can find and pit them against Bolt – ditto. Fastest swimmer, fastest marathon runner, strongest “person” and so on ad nauseam. Nobody is oppressing Female athletes, because they have been quite rightly given their own field of competition. It is no different than having an under-16’s competition, because an under-16 simply cannot compete with a mature adult. So someone can be a great child athlete, just as they can be a great female athlete, but there is little reason to say “what a great MALE athlete”, when it almost stands to reason that they are simply the best in class and are not being afforded ANY handicaps.

    If you want to throw out the definition and fail to differentiate, then a coach potato can rightly complain about not being called a great athlete when they get up and make a cup of tea in the “International Get Up and Make a Cup of Tea” competition. What complete and utter distraction this continues to be.

  3. Hillar says:

    Serena, stop taking drugs too!!!hill

  4. Hillar says:

    Serena, stop taking drugs too!!!

  5. Sven Grundin says:

    I’d like a clear answer to the following question, if possible: Is Serena Williams a baptized JW? BAPTIZED as such. To properly evaluate her statements, this question needs to be answered!

    • dee2 says:

      Do people who hear Serena refer to “Jehovah” make the distinction in their minds that she is not a baptized JW?

      Do they say:
      “Oh, she is not a baptized JW so what she says about “Jehovah” doesn’t count. Only if she were a baptized JW then only then would what she says about “Jehovah” matter?

      • Sven Grundin says:

        Correct. People assume she’s a witness, but technically, from the standpoint of the GB, she is NOT. She’s since many years “an interested one” [popular buzz sentence]. So the GB is not in the position either to endorse her or to reprove/DF her for that matter.
        How convenient for both parties!

        Since she uses the name of Jehovah and occasionally refers to the JW faith as her religion – why doesn’t she gets baptized?
        Probable answer: Like most JWs [not all] she’s a hypocrite.

        Shame on her.

      • Regina says:

        The first time I heard mention of her as having been associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses, the pioneers and elders in my service car group blew it off. They did not consider her to be a JW at all. Just someone who does not know god and likes to act like she does. They think of her like Prince of Michael Jackson. If she walked into the Kingdom Hall we were told not to acknowledge her, as that would give her special privledge. Bottom line-JW’s do not accept her. Sad thing is she does not know.

      • Johnny Walker says:

        That assumption would be wrong. There are other groups which use and invoke the name of Jehovah for God. J* Witnesses like to believe they’re the first and the mostest, but again–what and who’s biblical commentaries and encyclopedias did they research to discover the Tetragrammaton (Yahweh) name? The Name was used 1,000 years prior to the Watchtower Corporation being created.

        And, I’d say this is a case of “mind your own walk with God” and let Serena or Venus have their own accounting with God.

        One thing that should have jarred the white Finch (yes, it rhymes), this Williams woman is taking a political and social stand–neutrality? Hmm. Doesn’t sound like the typical “waiting on J*” line.

        But, good for Finch for tailgating and getting in some good jabs at the Watchtower’s own stance on female equality.

        Yet, there are tons of evangelical and protestant (and Catholics) who see nothing wrong with “men first at church” attitude of the Watchtower or the interpretation that men lead at home.

        And, as repulsive as feminists feel it, the nature of the beast is that deep down many women have no issue with a man around the house, especially when something dreadful and creepy happens at night. Do some men abuse this privilege and women? Obviously, but not all. And, it is insulting to blanket the whole population of man-kind as though they are abusers. Prepare to choke on it, but even Gloria Steinem got married.

    • rebecca says:

      Hi no they have never been baptised according to J W Facts. I think this leaves them free to do as they see fit. How she can be so overt about wanting the freedom that is so significantly stripped from all the J W women they must associate with baffles me.

      • Sven Grundin says:

        And, from the standpoint of the GB, since she well knows “the truth” but refuses to take the final step [baptism] she’s on death row to be executed by Jehovah at Armageddon. The same as we are, so they say between themselves, because we are not Jehovah’s Witnesses … what a hideous religion, what a nightmare!

        • David Hall says:

          You are on death row if you get baptised into that Cult. The only way to Father Yahweh according to the book they claim to follow is Yeshua, the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 8:1 states ‘There is no condemnation for those who are Christ’ No mention of JWs. In fact the name Jehovah was cobbled together back in 1270 by a Catholic Monk. It is used by Freemasons as a false god along with Osiris and Baal…it is Ja-Bu-Lon and they also use the name as a Password. Many years ago, I gave a Public Talk to a Congregation in a Masonic Lodge….such a Satanic place and yes Jehovah will reward those who give allegiance to HIM and if they are celebrities, such as Prince, Michael Jackson, the GB will turn a blind eye because of the huge amounts they put into their coffers. Satan wants them to sell their eternal Soul to him and he does that very well through many religions, especially ones who put Yeshua in a box and deny the rank and file the Bread & Wine and prayer direct to Yeshua. He actually told his followers, to ask for anything in HIS name. Bless you

          • My2cents says:

            Yeshua also said that “HE” does not know the day or the hour, but only the father does. How is it possible that he does not know everything? Also JW don’t say anyone is on death row, the Bible says their will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteousness, only God can determine who those are, but he also determines who the wicked are and says they will be destroyed. So simply not only JW will gain life.

  6. Doc Obvious says:

    Serena Williams has a net worth of $150 million USD. This is a woman who lives under a different set of rules by Watchtower. If Watchtower states any unflattering thing about her, she could sue them and go through the appeal process without losing her fortune.

    This is the difference between the woman publishers in the local Kingdom Hall and Serena Williams. Let’s also note that she is going to marry an unbeliever, Alexis Ohanian. This is also a big no-no in the Jehovah’s Witness religion.

    Now if someone points these facts to an elder, what do you think the elders would say to you? They would tell you that you are not in charge and that you should pay attention to yourself and your relationship with Jehovah.

    Lydia’s letter is a great letter and that what she states is right on. She is seeing the hypocrisy in the religion. I commend her for standing up to this situation.

    • al etheredge says:

      What’s a little hypocrisy to this fine organization? After all, Serena gives them some good publicity and they need all they can get. /s

    • My2cents says:

      People always speak of money as if their are people that are making it as JW. The GB takes a vow of poverty they do not get paid salaries, nobody does. So where does all that “amazing donated celebrity money” go? Lastly a person can’t be “shunned” from the congregation if they never committed to it in the first place. So she wouldn’t have an issue living a life against Jehovah because she is not a JW.

  7. Ted says:

    I recommend the example of S,W, and her sister V, to all
    Young JWs . To get to the zenith of their athletic career
    required them to start from a very young age, and to be
    encouraged by their parents. (you could point this out to
    Mom & Dad.)

    It might be worth mentioning also, that no one seems to have
    been reproved or disfellowshipped. And if you wanted to take
    on extra school work, with a view to to attending college, here
    again you could refer to S, & V, when the elders chastise you
    for your lack of spirituality. Silence from the gb, indicates assent,
    or at least no disapproval . So politely tell them to butt out, and
    then follow your dream.

    • messenger says:

      I agree Ted, but unfortunately if the JW parents want it WT’s way then they’ll probably insist the kid follow. Of course youngster away from home don’t have to. Telling elders who involve themselves politely to butt out, or to disregarding their thoughts, if a publisher doesn’t agree with their opinions I agree with. And that’s what recommendations about schooling is; its only opinions.

      I was in college when I studied and got baptized a JW, dropped out because of getting married (not because of WT), and then went back years later, got a professional degree (one needed for a professional career), and became a professional. The elders never said anything about it to me. I believe because they didn’t want to approach me about what I consider a petty issue. Even though some of the elders thought my schooling and the issue of higher education is a biggie, they also knew I would consider discussing it a petty issue, so no talkie talkie about it to me. But my education is probably why, since then, they haven’t even asked me to carry a microphone in the hall. And during the memorials they’ve used every brother in the hall to work and help them, except my son and I, even though neither of us were reproved for anything.

      Ted…don’t know, I’m almost in tears just writing and thinking about it. Not really!!! NO Big deal…Do I have a baaad attitude? Because I never supported their foolishness on these issues? I guess that’s a matter of opinion. Those were my actions, and that was my thinking which influenced my expressed behaviors before I knew TTATT. Foolishness is foolishness. It doesn’t matter whose spreading it, even if the gb really were ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ doing it…it is(was) still just their opinions.

  8. Caroline says:

    Has anybody ever seen the Williams sisters in a Kingdom Hall or going door to door? At least Prince went to assemblies and the his Kingdom Hall because there’s pictures of him doing that, at least attending an assembly.

    It seems to me that people like Serena Williams are convinced Witnesses have the “truth” but think that as long as they are good people and don’t get involved in politics, that that is all they can do since they are so famous, unlike Teresa Graves who was a famous actress and gave it all up to pioneer and later died in a house fire.

    Famous people can write off not going to the meetings and service because they’d be flanked by people wanting to take pictures of them etc. and Watchtower knows that.

    Scientology protects it’s famous people from the press and I think Watchtower is more than happy to have the Williams sisters say they are Witnesses because it lends prestige to the religion even though they (Watchtower) knows full well that in order to call yourself a “witness”, you actually have to “witness” and be baptized, which they don’t do and haven’t done, unless they think uttering the name “Jehovah” in public is “witnessing” but maybe they do go from door to door, but I am wondering if anybody has ever seen or heard of it being done?

    Since Watchtower doesn’t have anybody who publicly declares themselves to be a Witness who is actually really famous, I think that is why Watchtower doesn’t say anything to them to shut up about saying they are Witnesses or does not come out publicly and say they aren’t associated.

    Any time that Serena says she’s a Witness, the Society must jump up and down in joy and who cares about how she dresses or what she says in magazines? It’s free advertising by somebody who an awful lot of people look up to as a role model and the Society can use all the free advertising it can get from anybody as famous as Serena Williams.

    All Watchtower can say to anybody who complains about the double standard is “she’s not a Witness” so what can we do about it” but I can guarantee you that they are thrilled when she makes statements like that, saying she is a Jehovah’s Witness.

    Just my opinion.

    • outandabout says:

      I get your opinion, Caroline
      I have a feeling WT just keeps quiet and takes the best out of the situation and Serena is just a ‘maybe’ Witness and is taking a dollar each way.

      • twistedsister69 says:

        Absolutely. In this situation, WT & the Williams sisters are enjoying the BEST of BOTH worlds. I guess “rank hath its privileges”.

    • twistedsister69 says:

      Teresa Graves – “Christie Love” – I remember her. Did not know about the house fire thing. Tragic.
      To Serena Williams: No, saying “Jehovah” in public is NOT ENOUGH!!! Sorry sweetie, but to survive Jehovah’s Coming Barbecue, you need to be a (blood-) card-carrying, REGULAR door-knocking, REGULAR meeting/convention/Memorial-attending, B-A-P-T-I-Z-E-D, COMMITTED Jehovah’s Witness. Or else you get smoked too.
      To the General Public: No, dears, praising “Jehovah” from time to time, being a good person, not getting involved in politics or joining the military, is NOT ENOUGH!!! To survive Jehovah’s Coming Barbecue, you need to be a (blood-) card-carrying, REGULAR door-knocking, REGULAR meeting/convention/Memorial-attending, B-A-P-T-I-Z-E-D, COMMITTED Jehovah’s Witness.
      Or else you get smoked too.

      • Johnny Walker (Green) says:

        @twistedsister69 – interesting, because back in the day, I remember telling Baptists, Methodists and Penny-costals “oh no, the world won’t be burned up; there will be no fire and brimstone”. Funny how times change.

        Fire is symbolic.

      • ejectingtosanity says:

        This is absolutely the current policy. Believe it or not, this is the crap that is spewed out now: irregular attenders or faders are to be treated shunned and will get smoked along with ALL the other humans on earth. ALL. Such a kind group.

    • My2cents says:

      Did you also think about the fact that she has a right to be able to become a JW? If JW’s publicy denounced her and said she is not one of us and needs to stop saying she is, wouldn’t that send her down a path of never wanting to clean up her life and become a JW? That is the message that anyone can become a JW, she should acknowledge her actions publicly do not reflect the ideals of JW but that is her choice.

  9. Doc Obvious says:

    The 3 “nothings” publishers need to do in order to create change.

    They are: Do nothing for Watchtower. Say nothing about Watchtower. And above all, give nothing to Watchtower.

    Do nothing for Watchtower means… if Watchtower does not want to handle things for you, then you do nothing for them.

    Say nothing for Watchtower means… not giving your opinion about Watchtower. If you say nothing, Watchtower cannot use it against you. Watchtower is stuck and resorts to fabricating things against you.

    Give nothing to Watchtower means… no donations of any kind to Watchtower. This includes ignoring their requests for donations. Regardless of what fantasy they live in, Watchtower needs money in order to survive in this system.

  10. Rowland Nelken says:

    If these Williams women really believe all the JW guff they would get baptised.

    They need to cease promoting an outfit that looks forward, so long as they remain unbaptised, to their execution at Armageddon.

    If they really believed the JW bullshit they would know that Jehovah does not care for tennis. All he approves of is attending stiflingly boring meetings and hanging about by a mag stand as an unpaid distributor of awful old mags from New York.

  11. Lord Sedar says:

    Talking of double standards, on his twitter page today Mr Cdars highlighted a survey from the Pew Research Center, that showed Jehovah’s Witnesses were among the least educated among religious groups.

    I wonder if this would account for the popularity of the writings of the likes of Mr Cdars and Coward Fade on JW Survey, given that they are catering predominantly for the ex and active Witness community.

    Concerning the journalistic quality of the articles on this forum, I have to say that it has become my go to site for fake news. Sensational in every way.

    • Caroline says:

      Lord Sedar, or whatever name you are using today, every time you come on here and make a comment like the one above, you sound like a jilted lover. Why the obsession with Cedars????

    • Covert Fade says:

      Coward Fade. I like that. Might get a mug with that on.

    • John Oakfield says:

      I have to say you make a very unpalatable observation but one which must be noted as containing a little more than a kernel of truth. It seems Lloyd Evans (or whatever name he goes by these days) perhaps due to his JW background (or for some other reason), has very little if any secular training and most certainly doesn’t have a university degree, yet in spite of this colossal academic handicap has still managed to get his name (and face) in print. Being unable to get the book published through conventional means for reasons best known to himself, he has had to do it himself by ingeniously utilising social media to appeal for funding. As a result he has had his seminel work the Reluctant Apostate published which is receiving 5 star reviews by everyone except for several people who have given it 1 star. My point is, it shows what can be done with no education, no formal training and no qualifications. I would suggest, therefore, you cut his readership some slack who also, for the most part, have no education, formal training or qualifications.

      • twistedsister69 says:

        @John Oakfield

        Got my Sarcasm Detector turned way up, and still can’t quite make heads or tails of your conclusion. However, a coupla points:
        1. With all due respect (I mean, you could be a rocket designer for NASA or ESA, I don’t know), I personally would not consider the lack of a university degree a “colossal academic handicap”. I know a few folks with degrees who are complete boneheads (present company excepted).
        2. About that whole “what can be done with no education, no formal training and no qualifications” thing – I totally agree. Just look at the Wright brothers. They invented the airplane with no education, no formal training and no qualifications!!!
        PS FYI it’s not “seminel”. It’s “seminal”. Not being sarcastic. Just trying to help.

      • Winston Smith says:

        Many folks throughout history have made great strides despite a formal education. For others, their university education has provided the backbone for their future achievements. The fact is, it’s not whether you have a university education, but what you do with whatever education you have.

        Some folks get a university education and do absolutely nothing of value with it. Others are able to reach levels of greatness with only high school level training.

        The issue is not around JWs having or not having a university education, but the fact that they are in many cases denied the opportunity due to pressure from their leadership.

        However, the idea that many readers/commenters on this site are uneducated is flawed, since many of us are exJWs, in part because we broke the rules and became educated. That is certainly true of myself and I know it is true of many others who comment.

        WS

    • twistedsister69 says:

      @”Lord” Sedar

      “Fake news”. ha ha ha M’lord, you sound like a Trump fan.
      BTW, What’s YOUR educational background, Big Shot?

      • messenger says:

        @the educated gentleman above

        Ahhh it appears to be a WT rep, possibly even a ghost buster, who has made such a comment. Sir, any intelligent (JW)person would at least have figured out, through reading a teeny weeny bit of these articles, and comments offered here, that WT has published and distributed much more FAKE NEWS than is published on this site. I don’t agree with everyone’s opinions here. But I take most of their statements that are not shared facts as opinions. WT, on the other hand, publishes its(their) opinions as God given facts, and that makes them apostate Christians, according to Christ’s words, not mine. If you could understand the simple direct comments that Christ made you’d realize that. You would know that a true Christian does not teach so called truths and then say ooops ‘new light’ we have a new understanding…and do that continually-on and on. For there are no scriptures that give Christian congregational leaders God given authority to teach and promote falsehoods. It’s true the apostles did not understand some things at first and even latter they didn’t, but they didn’t teach those things at all that were unknown to them. If you believe they did that then why don’t you name the scriptures where they did it? In the Bible false prophets did that, and Christ said false shepherds would do the same thing, phony men leading people away from Christ’s true message.

        Because you write slightly above the 5th grade reading level WT uses doesn’t make you smart.

        A final point sir. If you are so defensive of WT why don’t you get the ok from them before you comment on this site, unless you presently are an elder working in their behalf, with their knowledge. If that’s the case, although I’ve never used this word before that pops up so frequently on this site, you’re deluded. Stop speaking for God and spreading crap in his name. You will reap what you sow. So will I and that’s why I will not speak lies in God’s name because a religious group claims I should, and correct those lies latter by claiming my religion received ‘new light.’ Be a thinker not a stinker.

      • Winston Smith says:

        @TS69
        Has nothing to do with being a Trump fan or an HRC fan. Pretentious, self-righteous snobs exist on both sides of the fence.

        WS

    • ejectingtosanity says:

      I have noticed that most of the faders and conscious class that I am personally aware of are individuals who have rather high critical thinking skills, gave the more in-depth, researched comments at meetings and often were ones who had traveled, ran businesses and did have higher education. Also, it seems that most, including myself, maintained professional education and didn’t give up all of our interests, talents and contacts. The shift to more control has been increasing for the last 15 years and I can see that young ones now will be more isolated and have less well-rounded schooling.
      Of course, in agreement with many comments here, a degree is not necessary to become a skilled writer or very intelligent, reasonable person. But to imply that followers of or writers for this site are largely impressionable sheep, lacking good comprehension is an insulting way to deflect attention from the story and to denigrate the author.
      The story is true. The double standards are accepted. Every witness or ex-witness reading this knows full well the consequences they would undergo should they participate in any competitive sport (whether at the grade-school level or all the way to Olympics). Marked, warned, disfellowshipped. And God forbid that you stand on the podium and cry during the National Anthem. And even one who is known to be ‘studying’ with witnesses is expected to adjust their behavior and will be corrected and counseled when they don’t adhere to ‘company policy’.

      • messenger says:

        Some JWs who comment here are defensive of WT, but I suspect that most JWs who read from this site never comment on it.

        Your average JW is not stupid. The average one, like in any population, would probably have average intelligence (and that’s what I’ve observed).

        That being said most adults of average intelligence realize that anyone writing false stories about an individual or organization stands the risk of getting sued for libel. And if that person looses their case, who thinks the defamer would continue to risk being sued again? Legally there are means to stop illegal civic activities such as libel. Remedies include restraining orders and injunctions.

        So, though these WT defenders have a bark, I bet even most of them recognize that if these articles were false JW.org, or WT would sue Cedars, JWfacts, JWStruggle, Silent Lambs, and the other well known sites that are anti-WT. Who would be so ignorant to believe that WT would turn the other cheek and walk away, if it could legally stop these attack against its character?

        I don’t think the average JW that reads from this site is ignorant. I think they’re scared. They’re scared of getting into trouble from elders. They’re scared of believing their dream is not true. And they are scared of taking a different path if they accept that it is.

  12. Doc Obvious says:

    I believe the “This Generation” teaching by Jesus Christ is for a future generation. Most likely the late 1960’s through the early 1980’s generation. It is this generation that can see right through the lies and misconceptions of the baby boomer generation and its overlapping generation teaching. A teaching that is both ridiculous and merits no consideration. The Baby Boomer generation is marked by increase greed, egotistical behavior, and moral degradation.

    In addition, if you look at the explanation of baby boomer, David Splane, you can see how he does not even know what the word, “generation”, means. He keeps babbling on-and-on how great he is for being part of his “this generation” teaching. Another narcissistic buffoon. Hence, we get the name, Watchtower Babble and Tract Society.

    Even David Splane’s fellow baby boomer, Anthony Morris III, is full of nonsense. Blaming everything that goes wrong for Watchtower on the LGBT community, atheists, and scientists. This ass-clown points to Awake magazines from the early 1980’s as the true source of wisdom.

    Jesus would never point to the baby boomer generation as “this generation”. Not all baby boomers are classified as such. But they are few and far between.

    • messenger says:

      @ doc
      Another point Doc, if you check that video out you will catch something that IS quite interesting. Splane doesn’t just slip by this point, but he stays on it for a while, but at the end he acts like he really didn’t intend to make a new point. After discussing the accepted sign of the last days by WT he says, ‘but wait there’s more. The Bible also talks about a tribulation.’ So, the more could be referring to an additional part of the sign, the more being the tribulation, a part that WT hadn’t previously realized.

      If you read those scriptures the tribulation could in fact be a part of the sign, for Christ said, “This generation will not pas away until ALL THESE THINGS occur.” And the tribulation was for a fact spoken of prior to that statement, so is it included in ‘all these things?’ Remember whether we consider that his answer was referring to the end of this system, which only occurs after the tribulation, during Harmagedon ,or his visible presence which is also only seen in signs after the tribulation, both events happen after the tribulation. But the present understanding by WT of the ‘sign’ just takes us up to it but not after the tribulation. Why?
      Of course if they ever go that way then they would have to admit the sign has never started, since they always define it as a composite.
      Best wishes!

      • dee2 says:

        [ “…….for Christ said, “This generation will not pas away until ALL THESE THINGS occur.” ]

        Did Jesus mean a different generation other than his generation?

        If so, could you please provide proof of this.

      • messenger says:

        I’ll provide reasons for that possibility. You’ll have to decide what you believe. There is no proof of what generation proceeds Christ’s coming. WT taught you there is, but that’s a fallacy which explains the reason for their date adjustments.

        I’ll only paraphrase Christ’s statements, not site them. I don’t want to look them up.

        Paraphrased Christ said, ‘at a time (hour) that you do not think it to be the Son of Man is coming’…..the YOU in that scripture would have to mean his followers. So, it appears his followers were not expected to recognized a ‘sign’ of the last days proceeding his return, or either he gave no sign of the ‘LAST DAYS.’

        He made other claims that carried the same thought. Quite a few of them. For example:’coming as a thief in the night’ …’ If the householder would have known’…’prove yourselves ready’….’ten virgins surprised when their master returned at night’…even in the evil slave parable the master returns without notice.’ Christ always indicated he would arrive without notice, whenever he spoke of his coming. So, if the sign of a ‘last days’ was obvious, Christians would surely recognize it, but according to Christ’s words there either is no sign of ‘last days,’ or Christians won’t recognize it.

        My belief is the sign he spoke of was of ‘his presence,’ not the of last days. He was asked a question about his presence or coming; they didn’t ask him about a sign for the last days, but for the end (conclusion). The word carries the thought of finality…over…done .not something carried on as ‘last days(plural) suggests..

        And I think the presence he referred to was his second coming, not some invisible presence for an extended amount of years as WT believes. Therefore, my personal belief is he was referring to the ‘sign of the Son of Man’ that everyone would SEE,’ as the lighting flashes and is seen from the east to the west.’ And maybe the description of the signs in the heavens, which he spoke of just before the sign of the Son of Man might be included as part of that sign.

        I don’t believe the ‘all these things’ included earthquakes, wars, etc. I explained this view more thoroughly in earlier thread several weeks ago.

        • dee2 says:

          Dear Messenger,

          Apparently my question was not clear enough as it seems you did not understand what I was asking.

          My question was about which generation did Jesus mean – did he mean his generation or a different generation other than his own?

          My question was NOT about whether or not Jesus gave a sign about the last days.

          When Jesus stated:
          “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34)

          which generation did Jesus mean?

          Did he mean his generation or a different generation other than his own?

          • messenger says:

            @dee2,
            When Christ said that he meant a different generation than the one alive when he lived on Earth. Here’s some scriptures which show it:
            1. the parables after that statement in Matt 25 speak of a time when the master-representing Christ-went away, but then returned….several parables there saying that; check them out.

            2. But the most conclusive proof is recorded at Luke 21:24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the NATIONS (plural), until the appointed time of the nations are fulfilled.” Christ said that must happen before the generation you inquired about is born. The Jews were dispersed for centuries, and they were only reunited again in Jerusalem in the 20th century.

            But even if you don’t accept that literal interpretation of Christ’s words (Luke 21),and go with the WT interpretation, those words still suggest a time period of some length, and from a practical point of view most likely far beyond the lifespan of people living when Christ was on Earth.

          • messenger says:

            @dee2
            Excuse me dee2.
            Actually the generation you inquired about could have been born prior to the re-gathering of Jews in Jerusalem. But if that’s the case some of them would still be alive up till the END-per Christ’s words.

            Or the generation could be born after that re-gathering as I previously stated above.

          • dee2 says:

            1. So Christ went away, but then returned as per your interpretation of the parables in Matthew 25.

            I note however, that during the entire conversation between Jesus and his disciples in Matthew 24, Jesus said nothing about his going away and then returning (as per your interpretation of the Matthew 25 parables). There are two other accounts of this conversation (Mark 13; Luke 21), and, like Matthew, neither one of them mentioned anything about Jesus’ going away and then returning (as per your interpretation of the Matthew 25 parables).

            Even if Jesus were to go away and then return, did these parables in Matthew 25 say anything about WHEN Christ would go away and WHEN he would return?

            The TIMING of Christ’s second coming (third in the case of JWs) is what is under discussion here.

            In Matthew 24:34 Jesus stated WHEN he would come/return:

            “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”

            So I do not see the relevance of the parables in Matthew 25 to Jesus’ statement in Matthew 24:34 (parallel verses Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32) which stated WHEN Jesus would come/return.

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            I reread Matthew 24 and the parallel accounts in Mark 13 and Luke 21 and I do not see where “…….Christ said that must happen before the generation you inquired about is born.
            ………”

            Jesus said nothing about what would take place BEFORE the generation in question was born.

            He only spoke about what would happen while the generation in question was alive/in existence.

            Jesus spoke about events that would happen AFTER the generation in question was born, not BEFORE the generation in question was born.

            Further, regarding Luke 21:24:

            Did the generation in question see/witness people “falling by the edge of the sword and being led captive into all the nations?”

            If so, when did this “falling by the edge of the sword and being led captive into all the nations”:
            – begin?
            – and what brought it about?

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            In a previous comment above you stated:

            [ “There is no proof of what generation proceeds Christ’s coming” ]

            Yet in a subsequent comment you clearly identified the generation that would precede Christ’s coming by stating:

            [ “Christ said that must happen before the generation you inquired about is born.
            The Jews were dispersed for centuries, and they were only reunited again in Jerusalem in the 20th century.

            Actually the generation you inquired about could have been born prior to the re-gathering of Jews in Jerusalem. But if that’s the case some of them would still be alive up till the END-per Christ’s words.

            Or the generation could be born after that re-gathering as I previously stated above. “]

            You clearly identified the generation to be either:
            – the generation that is born before the regathering of the Jews in Jerusalem
            OR
            – the generation that is born after the regathering of the Jews in Jerusalem

            But didn’t you state that the generation could not be identified/distinguished?

          • messenger says:

            @dee2

            Some people like to speculate, and guess, or believe they know the generation you speak of. But if it’s possible to know that, why did Christ say, ‘No one knows but the Father?’ That one statement refutes your claim that Jesus spoke of his generation. He said he didn’t even know. If he knew it was his generation that would see his return and the end of the world system he’d either have to have been lying to say that, or stupid, because that idea and your belief that he was talking about the generation of his day contradict each other.

            As for my prior statements they are not contradictory. A generation could be born after Jews were re-gathered in Jerusalem. But I never implied how soon after. Is a generation that is born a hundred years after that event the same as one born 10 years after that event? I don’t think so. Plus I wrote they could have been born before that event, if they live as a group until the end
            of the world. Christ clearly stated he was going away. His belief was that he would die and return at some future time. There is so much information in the Bible about that no religious group that I’m aware of that claims to be Christian has a problem with the issues you raise.

            The falling by the edge of the sword APPEARS to be about the Jews in Jerusalem. A direct answer to a direct question that was presented to Christ. But those Jews being taken captive and dispersed among the nations for a time period is what adds an lengthy dimension to the prophesy. Taken captive by one nation is one thing, dispersed among the gentile nations another. Fat chance something like that could have happened along with their re-gathering in one generation’s lifetime.
            PLUS Christ spoke of the APPOINTED TIME of the NATIONS. Again, it doesn’t make sense God would appoint that short of time- 30 or 40 years- to fulfill that ‘appointed time.

            What is your interest in the scriptures? I believe in your comments you say you don’t believe in the Bible, and if I read them correctly you probably no longer believe in God. So what is your interest in Bible interpretations?

            The Bible claims that only God gives understanding of it, to those he chooses to. The book claims that people who choose not to believe in him will never understand it for that reason.
            And from statements on this site its we see that some here don’t just have a beef against WT but also against the God of the Bible, if they still believe he exists at all. It seems to me this at least suggest the claim that only God allows people who desire to know him understand his word. Or, he hardens the hearts of ones that choose they don’t want to believe in him and allows them to confirm that belief in their own minds (not necessarily in reality).

            Also, many Bible points, including the one you’re considering now are not salvation issues. The Bible doesn’t claim Christ will kill Christians when he returns because they do not know the proper understanding of the ‘sign’ or ‘this generation.’ He directly said the opposite. He said they wouldn’t know when he would return.

            You probably use to believe in God, or you wouldn’t know about as many scriptures as you do. Let me make a suggestion. If you want to consider God again, stop doing what WT does . WT majors on the minor issues and minors on the major issues. The major things, according to Christ, involve following him. And he stated his purpose was to bring about a loving condition among humanity. We’re use to reading WT, which applies a lot of history and prophecy (what does it mean). They do it to elevate themselves by applying most of what they share to themselves. Those Bible points have merit, but they are not the most important things. Remember what Christ said about giving the dill and cumin, but the more important things like mercy were not observed. I suggest you read the book of John, and Paul’s letters.
            best wishes

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            By stating:

            [[ “What is your interest in the scriptures?
            I believe in your comments you say you don’t believe in the Bible, and if I read them correctly you probably no longer believe in God. So what is your interest in Bible interpretations?
            The Bible claims that only God gives understanding of it, to those he chooses to.
            The book claims that people who choose not to believe in him will never understand it for that reason.
            And from statements on this site its we see that some here don’t just have a beef against WT but also against the God of the Bible, if they still believe he exists at all.
            It seems to me this at least suggest the claim that only God allows people who desire to know him understand his word.
            Or, he hardens the hearts of ones that choose they don’t want to believe in him and allows them to confirm that belief in their own minds (not necessarily in reality)……….
            You probably use to believe in God, or you wouldn’t know about as many scriptures as you do. “]]

            you are trying to censure my comments and discredit me as you are hoping that readers will reject what I have to say without even reading it.

            You only want the comments in this forum to confirm your cherished beliefs, not question/challenge them – your frustration is evident when the  flaws/fallacies in your arguments are exposed.

            As far as I know, this is an ex-JW website. If you do not want your beliefs to be questioned/ challenged then you are in the wrong place. This forum is not for you.

            You should be careful how you attack commenters on this website as you risk violating the website’s rules. And just so that you know, the owner of this website is not a Bible believer, he is a self-declared atheist.

            Your Bible & belief in its God may bring you comfort and security. It frightens you to question/critically examine the Bible because for you, this would mean questioning God and that’s extremely frightening – God may just do something bad to you or punish you for questioning him.

            You are you so petrified, terrified and scared of God’s retribution that your fear of his retribution prevents you from realizing that for some persons, the Bible is nothing more than just a book, about which extraordinary claims have been made and those claims need to be verified.

            These persons are doing exactly as the Bible instructs:
            “Test every inspired expression (Bible) to see if it originates with God or not” (1 John 4:1).

    • Johnny Walker (Red) says:

      @DocObvious – just to throw a flash-bang grenade onto the forum. Wasn’t Ray Franz on the Writing Committee up through the early 1980’s? So, does the assignation of “drawing off a following” still stand when we point out the inconsistencies in doctrine and direction from say, the 1960’s to the 1980’s? Answer coming, but just to start wheels churning…

      No. The Franz that spearheaded most prophetic failures was Freeedrique. That said, “this generation” is another ‘red herring’ built upon failure after failure after failure, and as some wise god-incarnate once said, “a house built on sands–can not stand”. How did we get 1914? It was due to someone adjusting “the end” date to 1874, and what was “the end” before 1874–1844? And, when did the “last days” begin during all this adjusting? 1799. With the all-to-public flop in 1914, the tricks and adjustments that worked so well for the rest of Adventism in 1844 were rapidly adopted to identify 1914 as a valid date, but “misguided expectations.”

      So, things like “coming” which were flip-flopped to become “a presence” in 1874, were once again trotted out for 1914. If the Watchtower leadership had any stones they would’ve pulled out the same trick for 1975, but having a million followers is a tough revenue stream to wreck, plus the “oracles” of Russell, Rutherford, and Franz had (have) no successors.

      What we see playing out since the 1975 flop is little Dutch boys plugging fingers to stop leaks in the cracking dam. This generation gets played out from being cognizant children aware of events happening in 1914 and World War I to anyone born in period 1914 to 1919 to anyone who may have been in contact WITH someone who may have had contact with someone from 1914 to 1919 (and is “anointed”)–hence, passing the baton (relay race–no overlap, much like Elijah handing off to Elisha, except we are three handoffs deep now).

      But, [erasing the dry-marker board] the standard take on “this generation” is that Jesus’ prophecy was fulfilled in whole because “this generation” is a term that applies to families, clans, tribes, or a movement (a group). The Aramaic root is often used in connection with revolving–revolution. So, the standard view is that Jesus is stating, “this group”–this tribe, this movement–that has started will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. In the list are a ton of horrible things that will happen during the existence of this movement, but The End is not yet. The end (our death) for many of us will happen, so it is still imperative to make a stand and believe to be included in the “book of life”.

      • dee2 says:

        Hello Johnny Walker,

        [ “………So, the standard view is that Jesus is stating, “this group”–this tribe, this movement–that has started will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled…….. “]

        – Can “this generation” – “this group, this tribe, this movement”of which you speak
        be clearly identified?

        What SPECIFICALLY, is “this group, this tribe, this movement” of which you speak?

        – When did “this generation” – “this group, this tribe, this movement” that has started start?

        – Is “this generation” – “this group, this tribe, this movement” in existence today?

  13. twistedsister69 says:

    Watching folks like the Watchtower, and the Williams, is kinda like being at a tennis match. Just watch that ball go back & forth, back & forth, back & forth, “hither & thither”. They sure are playing an awful lot of people.
    … & having a good laugh about it at home!

  14. twistedsister69 says:

    This whole Openly-Mocking Double Life thing seems to be catching on. Ever heard of a guy named Emmanuel Lemelson? This dude is a one-man circus act. He is a Greek Orthodox priest, who is … half Jewish? lol He is also a multi-millionaire businessman, having operated his enterprise from his dorm room at the SEMINARY! He is now also a Hedge Fund Manager. Seriously, I’m not making this s*** up!!!
    Here’s the link, if u need a good laugh –

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Lemelson

    PS Whom do u think this Holy Joe Millionaire endorsed for U.S. President? ……. Anyone? Anyone?
    Just sayin’.

  15. Lordy Sedars says:

    twistedsister69:-

    I do not understand your tetchy response.

    It was Cedars, not I, who drew attention to the (supposed) lack of education among Jehovah’s Witnesses. Indeed, he even added a sarcastic comment,
    saying how he was not at all surprised by this finding.

    May I suggest that you redirect your feelings of indignation to the proper target. I am the innocent party here. Please don’t shoot the messenger.

    As for my educational attainment, I am without merit; as for my political allegiance, I remain neutral. My faith is in the kingdom to come, not the rotting spectacle we currently endure.

    Tell me, are you really twisted, sister?

    • twistedsister69 says:

      @Lordy Sedars

      Don’t project your tetchiness on me. That’s YOUR trip, man. I’m fine.

    • Caroline says:

      Lordy Sedars, Are you a Witness? If so, why are you looking at what Lloyd Evans puts on his twitter page?

      Again, why the obsession with Lloyd Evans? You know if you are a Witness, you aren’t even supposed to be here, don’t you?

      If you are an ex-witness, then why are you trying to undermine the efforts of this site to inform the general public about the dangers of getting involved in the Watchtower organization?

      No matter if you hate the people who run this site or not, what in the world makes you think that by making snide comments about Lloyd Evans or Covert Fade is going to make us turn on them?

      We all know that JW’s are the lowest educated people. That is nothing new to us. We lived it.

      We know that most Witnesses who go to college, go against Watchtower’s rules and those who went to college and then became Witnesses afterwards, are looked up to as “special” and the rest of us who didn’t go to college are not. We also know that Witnesses who break the rules and go to college are looked at special anyway.

      Don’t try and tell us anything about going to college. We all know about the rules about not going to college and how unfair their rules are and how foolish most of us were who listened to their advice and didn’t go to college.

      We know that. We know that people who want to pioneer have to work part time on menial jobs with low pay and no insurance and will have to work until the day they die because they don’t make enough money to get social security when they retire.

      We know that most of them live on food stamps and whatever else government hand outs they can get because most of them are so poor.

      We know that and so the point that we are trying to get across to anybody who comes on here, is to not get involved and not be talked into giving up their precious futures to the dictates of the Watchtower.

      Please try and help us warn about getting involved in Watchtower and not be taking out your hatred for the people who are running this site. What ever you say is going in one ear and out the other. It’s wasted energy.

      Why not try and say something constructive and not destructive?

    • Ricardo says:

      @Lordy Sedars

      I am one of the few (or so it seems) fortunate witnesses whose father (an elder) wanted his children to be educated, and thus sent me to uni (which I absolutely enjoyed, by the way).

      I do not swagger around showing off my qualifications. If you want to see swagger, look at the elders walking around.

      However, I have loved Cedars’ insightful videos and writings since being introduced to them by another brother. A person does not need to be educated to be able to take the mickey out of our leadership and their teachings. I have found his rebuttals of the JW Broadcasting to be masterful.

      A feature which I appreciate very much, as a person who loves knowledge, is the explanations of why certain things are being done.

      For instance, why was Watchtower an NGO with the UN from 1991-2000? When we ask our elders, they yell at us that Watchtower was not. Yet Watchtower was. By reading Cedars info, we become better educated than the elders.

      Why are branches closing and special pioneers being stepped down, and magazines getting smaller, etc? Our GB won’t tell us.

      What is happening in the courts, with respect to the JW’s losing court cases due to child sexual abuse? Our GB doesn’t tell us.

      So many things are secrets in our organization. And yet Cedars, educated or not, is telling us why. We are therefore very appreciative for the efforts Cedars and his team are putting in to educate us uninformed Witnesses.

  16. Ted says:

    Lordy Sedars. Who exactly is presiding over “The
    rotting spectacle we currently endure”?

    • dee2 says:

      As far as I can see, God is the engineer behind “the rotting spectacle we currently endure”.

      God ruined Job’s life just to prove that he is God. Wasn’t that supposed to have settled the issue? Wasn’t the point of Job’s suffering to silence Satan?

      Yet Satan was subsequently cast down to the earth (Revelation 12) and allowed to continue wreaking havoc in people’s lives, and to become the “god of this system of things” (1 John 5:19).

      So the issue hasn’t been settled then, Job’s suffering was all for nothing, his suffering was in vain.

      All this time I thought God loved us and wanted the best for us instead God prefers to carry on a pissing contest with Satan at mankind’s expense. How many more lives must be ruined before God ends his pissing contest with Satan?

      • twistedsister69 says:

        @dee2
        Good comment, but by “God” I’m sure u mean the god of the Bible, that Wackadoodle Cuckoopants Fire-Breathing Pagan “Yahweh”.

        • twistedsister69 says:

          Oops, missed a word — …that Wackadoodle Cuckoopants Fire-Breathing Pagan MONSTER “Yahweh”. There, that’s better. 🙂

        • dee2 says:

          I suppose it is one thing to claim that God exists and another thing to claim that this God actually revealed himself/herself to mankind via the pages of the Bible….. or via the pages of any Holy Book for that matter.

          These are indeed 2 separate, distinct issues.

          • twistedsister69 says:

            Agreed. Personally, I see God and religion as 2 completely different things, in fact, diametrically opposed. If I were God, I would be SOOOOOOO pissed off at being so grossly misrepresented by those a**holes!

  17. Motley Fools says:

    Serena Williams is as much of a “Witness” as all the crackpots commenting on here.

    • messenger says:

      How about sharing your wisdom if you do not fear to? What intelligent points have you….that accomplish anything more than name calling? Tell us YOUR truth.

    • messenger says:

      Or, can you defend your beliefs?

    • Ricardo says:

      @ Motley Fools,

      Seems like you have just made yourself one of the crackpots commenting on here.

      Or maybe that was the purpose of your comment: to confuse us.

      Like the imaginary friends I used to have. I wonder if they miss me?

    • twistedsister69 says:

      @Motley Fools
      I’m a little confused. Are u referring to the JW apologists, the defectors (“apostates”), or everyone here?
      In the event that u’re implying I’M a crackpot, all I can say is, I’d rather be a crackPOT than a crackHEAD.

    • Johnny Walker (Red) says:

      @Motley Fools – I’d like to show you another crackpot ; get a mirror….

  18. dee2 says:

    Lordy Sedars,

    “My faith is in the kingdom to come”

    You certainly have a lot of faith in the end of the world-kingdom come BS which the WT has been serving up:

    The WT concluded that the “king of the south” in Daniel 11 is fulfilled in Britain and America, and “the king of the north” in the Soviet Union. (Your Will Be Done On Earth 1958, pp 263 & 278)

    In their Your Will Be Done book, the WT stated:
    – …the Soviet Union, the Communist power, that since it seized power in Russia in 1917, has held world domination as its aim to this day (i.e. up to 1958 at the time of the book’s publication).
    (p. 278)

    – Down to the ‘time of the end’ at Armageddon there will be competitive coexistence between the ‘two kings’. (p. 297)

    – Jehovah’s angel foretold further aggressions by the Communist king of the north before his end at Armageddon. (p. 300)

    – The Soviet Union will gain control of most of the world and its wealth and resources including oil.
    (pp 297, 303)

    – The Soviet Union will then be terrified by reports issued by the WT and initiate an attack against JWs. (pp 304-305)

    – Finally the Soviet Union and America will join forces to attack the JWs which leads to the annihilation of both America and the Soviet Union. (pp 306-307)

    – Billions of people on earth who are not JWs will at that time be destroyed. (p. 347)

    Despite predictions that the Soviet Union will competitively exist until Armageddon, and will fall at that time after aggressions against the rest of the world, the Soviet Union is now defunct and has fragmented into a Commonwealth of Independent States and former Soviet republics.

    In a previous WT book called The New World (1942) “The king of the north” was quite different and “included the Central Powers, or imperial Germany, Roman-Catholic Austria-Hungary, Roman Catholic Italy and Vatican…Japan…” (p. 324)

    An even earlier WT book called Thy Kingdom Come (1891) applied the latter part of Daniel chapter 11 to the Napoleonic period in 1799.

    http://ed5015.tripod.com/JwKingOfTheNorth25.html

    • dee2 says:

      Lordy Sedars,

      Some more end of the world-kingdom come BS which the WT has been serving up:

      One of the main elements of the doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is a specific interpretation of Daniel 4 which is very easy to argue against. The Witnesses interpretation, as set forth in pages 136-141 of their You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, extracts a prophecy which sets 1914 as the year in which Christ begins to rule as king of the “heavenly government.”

      Daniel 4:1-17 sees Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, describing a dream he has just had to his servant Belteshazzar (otherwise known as Daniel). Daniel 4:18-27 has Daniel interpreting the dream for his king, and Daniel 4:28-37 shows the fulfillment of the dream.

      In his dream, Nebuchadnezzar first sees a great, strong, and abundantly stocked tree. Then he sees an angel descend from heaven and declare that the tree should be hewn down, but the stump and roots left in the ground and bound with a band of iron. The angel finishes by declaring:

      “…let him graze with the beasts
      On the grass of the earth.
      Let his heart be changed
      from that of a man,
      Let him be given the heart of a beast, And let seven times pass over him”

      and letting it be known that the whole thing is a demonstration of the dominion of God over man.

      What Daniel says about this dream is that:
      (1) the tree represents Nebuchadnezzar;
      (2) Nebuchadnezzar will be deposed for “seven times” until he realizes that God, and not he himself, is responsible for the greatness of the Babylonian kingdom; and that
      (3) Babylon will still be waiting for Nebuchadnezzar when the “seven times” are finished, and he will rule again.

      The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a unique way of interpreting all of this: they claim that:
      (1) the tree represents the supreme rulership of God because “Nebuchadnezzar was forced to know that someone higher was ruling”(p.138);
      (2) the cutting down of the tree represents the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar in 607 B.C.;
      (3) the “seven times” constitute 2,520 years because in Revelation, 1,260 days are equal to 3 and 1/2 times, and because each day counts for a year “according to a Biblical rule”(p.141);
      (4) adding 2,520 days to 607 B.C. yields 1914 as the year when Christ returns to rule God’s heavenly government.

      Now, this is not exactly what the Jehovah’s Witnesses have always said. Charles Taze Russell, whose public Bible studies formed the foundation of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, said :
      1799 – Last days began
      1874 – Start of Jesus’ invisible presence
      1878 – Jesus became king in heaven
      1914 – End of the world

      Jehovah’s Witness literature speaks of ‘the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.'”(“Will Christ Return?”, p.10).

      The Witnesses used to believe that 1914 would signal the beginning of God’s visible kingdom on earth, but now (since 1914 came and went with no sign of Christ descending from the clouds) talk about how Christ began to rule the heavenly kingdom in 1914, and will begin his visible reign on earth before the last person who lived in 1914 dies. This addition is based upon shoddy interpretation of some of the statements of Jesus – when Jesus said “But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God”(Luke 9:27) and “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place”(Mark 13:30), he was actually talking to – and referring to – that generation way back in the time frame in which he lived, not by any means to the generation of 1914. There is now an “overlapping generations” doctrine.

      This convenient change of doctrine, even if it did not have such glaring flaws, offers reason enough to suspect the Jehovah’s Witnesses of shoddy interpretation, but there is more: as said earlier, Daniel 4:28-37 describes the fulfillment of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream: Nebuchadnezzar is deposed, the seven times pass (certainly not 2,520 years), and the king humbles himself before God and is returned to power. As far as I can tell, the whole business with the dream is closed. There is no reference anywhere to the dream having a wider significance than Daniel’s own interpretation. There is no reason to equate the “times” in Daniel 4 with the “times” in Revelation, nor is there any reason to use the day-year principle. All of the clever handiwork of the Witnesses is a perversion of the clear intent of Daniel 4.

      • Johnny Walker (Red) says:

        @dee2 – dagnubbit, I’m the only one who can post lengthy dissertations on this here forum! [jumping up and down Snuffy Smith style].

    • dee2 says:

      Lordy Sedars,

      Just some friendly advice – don’t hold your breath for any divine intervention to end the world and bring Paradise so that you can live forever. Make sure to prepare yourself emotionally and financially for old age.

    • messenger says:

      His belief is in the heavenly kingdom- ‘kingdom come’ is a phrase from the famous Lord’s Prayer. So, whatever WT published about South/North kingdom has nothing to do with his hope.

      • dee2 says:

        How can the kingdom come if Armageddon doesn’t come?
        Doesn’t Armageddon have to come before the kingdom comes?

        The WT’s interpretation of the “king of the north” and the “king of the south” of Daniel’s failed prophecy in Daniel 11 has to do with the WT’s prediction regarding when Armageddon/the end of the world would come.

      • dee2 says:

        Please explain how the kingdom from the famous Lord’s Prayer is going to come if Armageddon doesn’t come.

        • Winston Smith says:

          @dee2
          Another point of view (from Christian Deism) is that the Kingdom is not tangible but rather a state of mind: ‘The kingdom of God is the reign of God’s law of love in individuals and in human society.’

          Doesn’t require Armageddon or the extermination of billions. Food for thought.

          WS

        • messenger says:

          Please dee2,
          I’m still sitting in at the meetings and listening to the JW point of view there. I did a brief read of your statements, and it looks like that’s where your coming from (WT).

          How many things was WT wrong about which we know for sure? Probably hundreds right? So, my guess is they were wrong about most of those scriptures they applied to governments, and practically all if not all of the scriptures they applied to themselves. I don’t read all your comments because you keep referring to what they taught, and teach, when those beliefs are irrelevant to me.

          Previously did a quick read above and saw someone you spoke to believed in ‘kingdom come.’. All I said was that statement is taken from the Lord’s prayer. I didn’t say anything about Harmagedon, and I don’t get how you connected those thoughts.

          But according to the Bible Harmagedon comes first, then the kingdom, you are correct about that.

          But to extend on WS’s point. If you look at many of the parables Christ used to speak of the Kingdom, he did speak of it as being present in the first century on, until and after Harmagedon. For instance, look up the ‘drag net’ parable. He frequently said ‘the kingdom of the heavens is like…(so and so)’ describing something about it, or something it does or will do.

          Christ’s kingdom has always ruled over Christians. And the preaching of it has accomplished various things…one of those is mentioned in the ‘drag net parable.’ You’ll see he claimed its done other things in other parables. Just look for ones that say’ the kingdom of the heavens is like…He used similes.

          • dee2 says:

            Dear Messenger,

            [ “But according to the Bible Harmagedon comes first, then the kingdom, you are correct about that. ” ]

            [ “If you look at many of the parables Christ used to speak of the Kingdom, he did speak of it as being present in the first century on, until and after Harmagedon.” ]

            These are two diametrically opposed conflicting statements.

            Does the kingdom come BEFORE Armageddon or AFTER Armageddon?

            [ “His belief is in the heavenly kingdom- ‘kingdom come’ is a phrase from the famous Lord’s Prayer. So, whatever WT published about South/North kingdom has nothing to do with his hope.” ]

            Just so that you know, the WT teaches that Armageddon ushers in God’s kingdom – no Armageddon, no kingdom.

            The WT has teachings regarding when Armageddon would strike. Among them is the teaching in which the WT used Daniel’s failed prophecy in Daniel 11 regarding the “king of the north” and the “king of the south” to claim that the USSR would be in existence when Armageddon strikes.

          • messenger says:

            @dee2
            I wouldn’t put to much confidence in WT’s interpretation of Daniel.

            The kingdom, in the sense you speak about it as the completed government containing all members ruling over the Earth is one thing. But Christ also referred to the kingdom in another way. Check out how he used the term in his parables. Christ was a really broad thinker…it’s one of the reasons he’s sometimes misunderstood. For example, he took the ideas of what the kingdom will do and what his church presently does do and did, how the kingdom would influence people and how his present church does influence people and did in past history [how the kingdom was represented by his Earthly church was one way he used the term in his parables]. ‘A mustard seed that is the smallest seed but grew to be a large tree that the birds of the heaven find lodging in is like the kingdom of heavens’ to him. Obviously he was referring to the start of his church in that parable, and how it would grow….He considered both phases the kingdom-its beginning and after maturing. He also stated the kingdom would attract all types of people, some receive life others don’t. He may have even have been thinking about the idea of the kingdom which sometimes accomplishes some of these things.

            But in the sense of it ruling over the Earth you’re correct, Harmagedon first then it (the Kingdom) establishes its rulership over all people on Earth.

          • messenger says:

            A couple Bible points you know about that support those points:

            Christ said, “the kingdom in in your midst.” The belief that this means Christ was there with them as the king is accepted by more than JWs.

            Paul said we are ambassadors for Christ, obviously a representation of being representatives of Christ’s kingdom.

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            [ ” A mustard seed that is the smallest seed but grew to be a large tree……..Obviously he was referring to the start of his church in that parable, and how it would grow…..”]

            So I read the parable of the mustard seed and I do not see where Jesus said

            The mustard seed = The church

            but I saw where he said

            The mustard seed = The kingdom of heaven

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            Luke 17:21, where Jesus reportedly said:

            “the Kingdom of God is among you” (ISV)

            “the Kingdom of God is in your midst(NIV)

            However according to other translations:

            “the kingdom of God is WITHIN you”

            (KJV, New Heart English Bible, GOD’S WORD® Translation, Jubilee Bible 2000, American King James Version,
            American Standard Version, Douay-Rheims Bible, English Revised Version, Webster’s Bible Translation, Weymouth New Testament, World English Bible, Young’s Literal Translation).

            For what it’s worth, the Greek meaning does NOT mention “in the midst” or “among” according to Strong’s Concordance.

            These men that Christ was talking to in Luke 17 were the Pharisees identified as a “generation of vipers”. Strange that the kingdom could be inside these serpents.

            *The verse is found only in Luke, it does not appear in any of the other Gospels.

            If however, we let the “among you” or “in your midst” translation of Lukec17:21 stand then Jesus talked about the Kingdom as both future and present.

            The fact is, there are apocalyptic pronouncements throughout the Gospel accounts of Jesus’ teachings, predictions of the coming judgment, of the imminent arrival of the Son of Man, of the future Kingdom on earth – and these pronouncements need to be taken seriously.

            Jesus’ predictions about the coming Kingdom cannot be watered down, compromised,
            Milquetoasted to death. For they form the very core of his teachings. His entire proclamation consisted in a call to prepare for the coming Kingdom, which would be brought in by a final judgment through the imminent appearance of the Son of Man.

            For Jesus, the Kingdom was a real kingdom to come with real rulers, and they would be Jesus’ close followers.

            Jesus talked about his disciples serving as rulers of the kingdom, sitting on actual thrones in the royal court (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30).

            Jesus’ teaching of what we might call “ethics” was advanced to show people how they could be ready for the coming kingdom.

            Those who followed his teachings in the present – who would, then, inherit the Kingdom that was coming in the future – were in some sense practicing the ethics of the future Kingdom. In that sense, they were experiencing a kind of foretaste of what life in the Kingdom would be like.

            Jesus’ followers who were preparing for the Kingdom had already begun to implement the ideals of the Kingdom in the present.

            The ways Jesus’ disciples were to live in the present in preparation for the coming Son of Man reflected life as it would be when the Kingdom fully arrived.

          • Winston Smith says:

            One could make the argument that all the “apocalyptic” type statements that Jesus made were symbolic for the destruction of Jerusalem and had no further application. Other interpretations of the symbolism could also be made.

            WS

          • dee2 says:

            Winston,

            What proof do you have that the heavenly signs were symbolic?
            What are your reasons for claiming that the astronomical signs in Matthew 24:29 – 31 (parallel verses Mark 13:24 – 27, Luke 21:25 – 28) were not intended literally? 

            1). Can you support this claim, this POV, with textual analysis that will give unequivocal linguistic evidence that would show that the writer did indeed intend for this text to be understood symbolically/figuratively?

            Can you analyze the texts to show the contextual reasons why we should think that Jesus was speaking figuratively when he referred to falling stars and the darkening of the sun and moon.  

            Can you explicate the text to show compelling linguistic reasons, compelling textual evidence why these passages warrant a figurative interpretation? why we should assign figurative meaning to the astronomical signs in these prophetic passages?

            Can you point out the specific language that would have enabled Christians of that time to know that it was just a figurative prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem?

            Can you explain how references to falling stars, the darkening sun and moon, the sign of “the son of man in heaven” coming on clouds with angels, etc. can be considered just a figurative way to describe the destruction of a city?

          • dee2 says:

            Winston,

            2). If Jesus did not mean that the heavenly signs in his prophecy would literally happen, then what did he mean?

            If the sun wasn’t literal but figurative then what exactly did the figurative meaning of the darkening of the sun mean?

            Likewise if clouds didn’t mean clouds but something figurative what exactly did these figurative clouds mean?

            When Jesus said that the moon would not give its light and the stars would fall from heaven, what did this allegedly figurative language mean?

            What about:

            – The “sign of the son of man in heaven” – did “heaven” mean “heaven”?
            – “All the tribes of the earth” – did “earth” mean “earth”?
            – Did angels mean angels? What did the angels descending with the great sound of a trumpet mean?
            – “The stars shall fall from heaven” – what did heaven mean?
            – What does the “tribes of the earth – not just those in Jerusalem – will mourn” mean?

            – How will the tribes of the earth – not just those in Jerusalem – see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven?

            Can you explain explicitly what happened in AD 70 that constituted a coming “with power and great glory”?

            What did the disciples mean by “world” when they asked Jesus what would be the signs of his coming and of the end of the “world”? (Matthew 24:3)

          • dee2 says:

            Winston,

            3). If these passages were “fulfilled” when Jerusalem fell in AD 70, what exactly happened?
            Exactly what happened in AD 70 that fulfilled this prophecy if the astronomical signs were figurative?

            What specifically and exactly happened when Jerusalem was destroyed that would have caused those familiar with Jesus’ prophecy to say, “Yes, this is what Jesus said would happen when he returned” given that the astronomical signs were figurative?

            Can you specifically list and explicate some examples for us, so that we can know how the prophetic references to the  astronomical signs were fulfilled? For example:

            – The prophecy that the stars would not give their light during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was fulfilled when __________ happened.

            – The prophecy that the sun would be darkened during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was fulfilled when __________ happened.

            – The prophecy that the moon would not cause her light to shine during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was fulfilled when __________ happened.

        • messenger says:

          @dee2
          I just read your post on Feb 9th at 1:46pm. I agree with everything you said there.
          best wishes!!!!

  19. Buggs says:

    …she (Serena) was never baptized or regular once her tennis started so she’s as ignorant as anyone else. Besides her wallet and the open letter seem to be an obvious effort to do things contrary to what the religion taught her in its weak treatment of woman. She has only ever repeatedly associated herself as a worshiper of Jehovah (God), not the org. this woman needs to take her video down and go start giving out scholarships to females because Serena’s tree is the wrong one to be barking up.

    • dee2 says:

      [” She has only ever repeatedly associated herself as a worshiper of Jehovah (God), not the org. this woman needs to take her video down and go start giving out scholarships to females because Serena’s tree is the wrong one to be barking up.”]

      Here is what a worshiper of Jehovah (God), and not the org learns about the status of women from the Bible:

      Genesis 3:16: Adam’s role is to be Eve’s master. The King James Version (KJV), New International Version (NIV), and Revised Standard Version (RSV) use the term “rule” to describe Adam’s role over Eve: “…thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” The Living Bible uses the term “master”. The Modern Language Bible uses “dominate”. By implication, all of their descendents are would have the same power imbalance between spouses. 

      A man could marry (literally “become the master of the woman”) as often as he desired. In Genesis 4:19, Lamech became the first known polygamist when he took two wives. Subsequent men who took multiple wives included: Esau with 3 wives; Jacob: 2; Ashur: 2; Gideon: many; Elkanah: 2; David: many; Rehaboam: 3; Abijah: 14. Jehoram, Joash, Ahab, Jeholachin and Belshazzar also had multiple wives. Solomon holds the record. He had 700 wives of royal birth, as well as 300 concubines!

      Genesis 19:8: The men of Sodom gathered around Lot’s house, and asked that he bring his two guests out so that the men can “know” them. This is frequently interpreted as a desire to gang rape the visitors, although other interpretations are possible. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to be raped instead: He is recorded as saying: “I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes.” Yet, even after this despicable act, Lot is still regarded as an honorable man, worth saving from the destruction of the city. Allowing one’s daughters to be sexually assaulted by multiple rapists appears to be treated as a minor transgression, because of the low status of the young women.

      Genesis 21:10: A man could simultaneously keep numerous concubines. These were sexual partners of an even lower status than a wife was. As implied in this verse she could be dismissed when no longer needed: Sarah is recorded as saying: “…Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.” Abraham had two concubines; Gideon: at least 1; David: many; Nahor: 1; Jacob: 1; Eliphaz: 1; Gideon: 1; Caleb: 2; Manassah: 1; Saul: 1; David: at least 10; Rehoboam: 60; Solomon: 300; an unidentified Levite: 1; Belshazzar: more than 1. 

      In Exodus 1:15-16, the Pharaoh ordered the midwives to kill all Jewish boys at birth, because of the threat that they might pose to the kingdom. “And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.” The girls, being considered less important, were not seen as a threat; they were allowed to live. 

      Exodus 20 & 21: This is perhaps the most misogynistic pair of chapters in the Bible. A number of verses describe a woman as the property of her father. At marriage, her ownership was transferred to her new husband: 

      Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.” It is important to realize that a manservent and a maidservant were male and female slaves. They were not a hired butler and maid. The tenth commandment forbids coveting your neighbor’s house, wife, male slave female slave, animals or anything else that the neighbor owns. The wife is clearly regarded as equivalent to a piece of property.

      Exodus 21:2-4: “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing….If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself.” A slaveowner was permitted to give a woman to his male slave as a wife. There is no indication that women were consulted during this type of transaction. After serving six years, he would leave, but his wife and children would remain slaves of the slaveowner. Again, there is no indication that the woman was consulted on this arrangement. 

      Exodus 21:7: “And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.” A father could sell his daughter as a slave. Even though a male slave is automatically given his freedom after 6 years, a female slave remained a slave forever. 

      Exodus 22:16-17: The first seventeen verses of Exodus 22 deal with restitution in case of stealing, or damage to, a person’s property. Verses 16 and 17 deal with the case of a man who seduces a virgin. This was viewed as a property offense against the woman’s father. The woman was expected to marry the seducer. If her father refused to transfer ownership of his daughter to the seducer, the latter was required to required to pay money to her father. The money would be in compensation for the damage to the father’s property – his daughter. It would be difficult for a non-virgin to marry.

      Exodus 21:22-25 describes a situation in which two men are fighting and one hits a pregnant woman. If the woman has a miscarriage because of the blow, the man is punished as the husband decides and must pay a fine for their act – not to the woman, but to her husband, presumably because he has been deprived of a child. The woman had no involvement. Exodus 21:22: “…he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.” 

      Exodus 23:17 states that only men are required to take part in the feasts of unleavened bread, of harvest and of ingathering: “Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.”

    • dee2 says:

      Some more on what a worshiper of Jehovah (God), and not the org, learns about the status of women from the Bible:

      Leviticus: This book deals mainly with the duties of the priesthood, the Levites. Women were not allowed to become priests.

      Leviticus 12:1-5 Quotes God as stating that a woman who has given birth to a boy is ritually unclean for 7 days. If the baby is a girl, the mother is unclean for 14 days. “If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days…But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks…” It would appear that the act of having a baby is a highly polluting act. To give birth to a girl is twice as polluting as is giving birth to a boy.

      In Leviticus 18:20 adultery was defined as a man having sexual intercourse with his neighbor’s wife. “Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s wife, to defile thyself with her.” Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”Deuteronomy 22:23 extends this prohibition to a man sleeping with a woman who is engaged to be married. If a man has an affair with an unmarried woman, the act is not considered adultery. Married men were free to visit prostitutes. A man who committed adultery did not commit a wrongful act against his own wife, but rather against his male neighbor.

      Leviticus 27:6 A child aged 1 month to five years of age was worth 5 shekels if a boy and 3 shekels if a girl. “And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.”

      Numbers 3:15 shows that a census counted only male infants over the age of one month, boys and men. “Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them.” Females were not considered worthy of being included.

      Numbers 5:11-31 describes a lengthy magical ritual that women were forced to perform if their husbands suspected them of having had an affair. A priest prepared a potion composed of holy water mixed with sweepings from the floor of the tabernacle. He proclaimed a curse over the potion and required the woman to drink it. If she were guilty, she would suffer greatly. The passage says that her abdomen would swell and her thighs waste away. There is no similar magical test for husbands suspecting of having an affair with another woman. One interesting aspect to this passage is that if the woman happened to be pregnant, then swelling of her abdomen and wasting away of her thighs would probably induce an abortion as an unintended side effect of this procedure. No concern is expressed in the passage about the death of the embryo or fetus; the life of the unborn appears to be unimportant.

      In Numbers 27:8-11, Moses describes the rules of inheritance that God has stated. If a man dies, his son inherits the estate; his daughter gets nothing. Only if there is no son, will his daughter inherit. If there are no children, then the estate is given to the man’s brothers; his sister(s) get nothing. If he had no brother, the estate goes to his nearest male relative. “…If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. And if he have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his father’s brethren. And if his father have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family….”

      Numbers 30 describes that a vow taken by a man is binding. But a vow taken by a woman can be nullified by her father, if she is still living in her family of origin, or by her husband, if she is married.

      Deuteronomy 21:10-13 describes how a soldier can force a woman captive to marry him without regard for her wishes. “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.”

      Deuteronomy 22:13-21 requires that a woman be a virgin when she is married. If she has had sexual relations while single in her father’s house, then she would be stoned to death. There were no similar virginity requirements for men. “If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid….if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”

      Deuteronomy 22:28-29 requires that a virgin woman who has been raped must marry her attacker, no matter what her feelings are towards the rapist. “If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife….”

      Deuteronomy 24:1 describes the procedure for obtaining a divorce. This can only be initiated by the husband, not by the wife: “When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.”

      Deuteronomy 25:5-10: states that if a woman is widowed, she would be required to marry her former brother-in-law. This was called a “levirate” marriage. Their first-born son will later be considered to be the son of the deceased husband. The man could refuse to marry her. Women were not given a choice in the matter. ” If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.”

      Deuteronomy 25:11: If two men are fighting, and the wife of one of them grabs the other man’s testicles, her hand is to be chopped off. There is no penalty if a male relative were to grab the other man. “When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets. Then thou shalt cut off her hand…”

      Judges 19:16-30 describes an event similar to Genesis 19. Some men in the city wanted to “know” a visiting Levite. The owner of the house offered his virgin daughter and the Levite’s concubine so that the men could rape them. Verse 24 states: “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.” The man sent his own concubine outside to the gang, who proceeded to serially rape her. She died of the attacks. The man only learned of her death when he was leaving the house in the morning and stumbled across her body. The woman was clearly considered expendable and of little value.

      2 Chronicles 36:23 mentions the Second Temple which was constructed after some Jews returned from exile in Babylon. It was rebuilt by Herod late in the 1st century BCE. One of its features was women’s court, considered the least sacred area. Next was the court of the Israelites (reserved for males), then the court of the Priests, and finally the Temple itself. The courts were laid out in this order to separate the women as far as possible from the Temple.

      • Caroline says:

        dee2, thank you so much for all the scriptures you have listed here showing how women were treated in the Bible which shows just how little Jehovah thinks of women. If Jehovah actually wrote the Bible and he is responsible for the “law” then that is exactly how Jehovah thinks of women because the “law” was written by Jehovah and so the law reflects Jehovah’s thinking about women then.

        One of the most despicable men in the whole Bible (going by today’s standards of what is considered despicable) is Abraham, the father of the Hebrews.

        Two times, he cowardly let his wife be taken by kings so as to save his own life and when those two kings let Sara go, the kings loaded Abraham down with gifts, camels and many animals and servants, which is how Abraham got so rich. He was a coward and didn’t care about what happened to Sarah in order to save his own life. Sarah was even his half-sister, which didn’t matter either.

        After Sarah died, according to Genesis 25:1-6, Abraham took another wife by the name of Keturah and she had Zimran, Jokshan and Medan and Midian and Ishbak and Shuah. Jokshan became father to Sheba and Dedan and Dedan had Asshrim and Letushim and Lebummim and Midian’s sons Ephah and Epher and Hannoch and Abida and Eldaah and these were the sons of Keturah. (vs 5) Later on Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac (6) but to the sons of the concubines that Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts. Then he sent them away from Isaac his son while he was still alive, eastward to the land of the East.

        So after Sarah died, Abraham took another wife and concubines (plural) and he had many more children by those concubines and many children by his 2nd wife but he left everything he had to Isaac and sent away all those concubines and children with gifts. This is the father of the Jews and they are proud of that.

        These sons of Abraham spread all around to the East and it was those sons and grandsons and great grandsons who occupied those lands that Moses and the Jews who escaped from Egypt (from Jacob) went into those lands and slaughtered them in order to take their land over 400 years later and we are not even talking about Esau’s offspring and Hagar’s offspring.

        With all those children that Abraham had and their offspring, it had to account for millions of people because the Jews leaving Egypt (just Jacob’s offspring) accounted to about 3 million, so you can imagine how many people all those children and grandchildren amounted to from Abraham’s 2nd wife and concubines.

        None of those accounts make any sense at all because according to the promise that God made to Abraham, his seed would inherit the earth and that is what happened when Abraham had all those children by his two wives and his concubines so then why would God be telling Moses to go into those lands and kill all those people who were already Abraham’s seed?

        I also love the account about Judah (who the Society has had dramas at assemblies depicting him as an honorable man because he fathered an ancestor of Jesus) who wanted to kill and burn his daughter-in-law Tamar for committing adultery when it was perfectly okay for him to go to a prostitute. The Bible says nothing about him going to what he thought was a “temple” prostitute so that was perfectly okay to do and deserved no punishment.

        Judah went to a “temple” prostitute when the temple had not been set up yet so just what kind of “temple” was it that he went to? He wanted to burn Tamar. Why did he want to burn Tamar? Maybe because it was common then to burn to death any woman who committed adultery? Putting together that he went to a “temple” and it was common to burn adulterers, then it is obvious that Abraham served Canaanite gods just as Joshua 24:1-3 says when Abraham was called out of Ur to go to where Jehovah was sending him. Why would Jehovah call Abraham when he was serving “other” gods? We read those scriptures and never put two and two together.

        This was a man who refused to give his son to Tamar for a wife and he was supposed to do that according to brother-in-law marriage and this is a man that the Society holds up to be a good man. Why????? Maybe because the Society has the very same low opinion of women even to this day???

        The Society also holds up Abraham to be a good man too. Why??????

        • Caroline says:

          And by the way, why was Abraham so anxious to offer up his son Isaac to Jehovah as a burnt sacrifice?????

        • dee2 says:

          @Caroline

          – Good points RE: Abraham & Judah.

          – You also mentioned:
          “These sons of Abraham spread all around to the East and it was those sons and grandsons and great grandsons who occupied those lands that Moses and the Jews who escaped from Egypt (from Jacob) went into those lands and slaughtered them……….”

          * Now we know why the Muzzies call themselves children of Abraham.

          * When God chose one line of descendants of Abraham’s seed and instructed them to kill the other persons who were also a part of Abraham’s seed, I suppose this all-wise, all-knowing God didn’t realize that he was actually shooting himself in the foot and thereby undoing his promise to Abraham……..LOL.

  20. twistedsister69 says:

    Ironically, in spite of her many thanks to yahweh, Serena Williams is not a successful athlete because she serves yahweh. She is a successful athlete because she IGNORES yahweh, instead TRAINING and PRACTICING. No one gets to be that good without PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. And practice takes TIME. So, instead of doing yahweh’s will (as a JW or not), i.e. preaching & teaching the Gospel, studying the Bible, attending Church/Kingdom Hall/Synagogue/Mosque services regularly, she devotes herself to TENNIS, NOT yahweh. Like I said B4, Serena Williams is a confused young woman. And let’s not split hairs – everyone on the planet knows that the only organization that regularly uses the name “Jehovah” is WATCHTOWER. So one can claim that Serena serves jehovah without identifying with Watchtower, but that’s pure BS. Once a person starts throwing around the word “Jehovah” like that, they are CLEARLY identifying with Watchtower! Absolutely no doubt. Just like Prince Rogers Nelson.
    “U can fool SOME of the people ALL of the time, u can fool ALL of the people SOME of the time, but u can’t fool ALL of the people ALL of the time.”

    • Caroline says:

      twistedsister69, Dan Barker makes an excellent observation in his book “God The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction” on page 21 where he said: “And shouldn’t Jehovah’s Witnesses be called Jealous’s Witnesses?” because according to Exodus 34:14, God actually says his name if “Jealous”.

      • twistedsister69 says:

        Praise Jealous!
        “Jealousu Akbar”
        I always wondered about “Jehovah of Armies”. Earth is mostly covered in water, so wouldn’t he also be “Jehovah of Navies”?
        Just sayin’.

        • dee2 says:

          If “Jealousu Akbar” were a peanut junkie, I wonder what he would be called?………..“Jealousu Nutbar” maybe?

          And seeing that chocolate is so irresistible I suppose he would be called:
          ” Jealousu Chocolate Bar! “

    • ejectingtosanity says:

      Absolutely. They ID as Witnesses.. Baptized or not.

  21. twistedsister69 says:

    Nothing against feminism, but where are all the raging, radical, “3rd Wave” Feminists when it comes to all the crap propagated & perpetrated by Fundamentalists like WT, FLDS, and even mainstream religions???!!! I mean, if some skank in a low-cut top happens to slink by, and I take a sideways glance at her b**bs, I’m Public Enemy Number One, a Neanderthal Pig who objectifies women, and next thing you know, I’m on the ground being beaten silly by the local S.W.A.T. team. W…T…F??? Why the H-E-double-hockey-sticks do I never hear Radical Feminists raging against the treatment of women in the Islamic world, for example, where, in many places, women are STILL treated like property? Or what about the REAL “Rape Culture” in places like India, where the common defense for rape is, “Well, Your Honor, she was out after dark, so she had it coming”??? I think, in our ‘privileged’ part of the world, there is too much social/sociological self-abuse, too many folks with no lives and too much spare energy to burn, creating, in many cases, issues where there are none. To such people I say, take all that wonderful energy and drive, and apply it in a useful, productive manner that will ACTUALLY HELP SOMEONE, instead of beating ordinary folks over the head with your “noble” causes and hamster-wheel ideologies. In other words,
    CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION TO YOUR ISSUES

  22. Ted says:

    Serena is committed to the demands of her career and not
    to the demands of being a committed JW. It’s sound policy
    to be recommended to all, women and men alike.
    She’ll not end up depending on hand outs, like several I’ve
    known, who chose the latter option.

    Serena is a “hanger on” in contrast to a man who became
    known as “Gods Footballer” who at the pinnacle of his
    career gave it all up. He was lured (like many) with the
    promise of the end coming in 1975. Asked what he would
    do if the end didn’t come in 75, he said he would throw his
    Bible away.

    As far as I know he’s serving a an elder somewhere in the
    UK, still waiting for the end, 42 years on. It would be
    Interesting indeed to get his thoughts on the likes of S & V.

  23. Ted says:

    A bit of a Balls Up all around, eh sis.

  24. WideAwake says:

    Serena Williams needs to get over herself.
    Seriously? Thanking “jah” for winning a tennis match?
    Like The Big G really cares about tennis!
    What a silly, elitist young woman.
    If she were baptized she would be either disfellowshipped or publicly reproved by the GB for her views regarding the “equality” of women.
    Therefore, get over yourself Serena and wake up and smell the coffee. The Watchtower babble and tract society religion puts women down!

  25. Hillary says:

    I don’t know if anyone has posted this amongst the many comments, but Serena is engaged to a WORLDLY man – the co-founder of Reddit, Alexis Ohanian.

    Why do I have the feeling she has not waited for marriage to have sex with Alexis?

  26. Winston Smith says:

    At best, Serena could be considered a nominal Jehovah’s Witness, knowing some of the basic teachings, but really unaware of what the organization really teaches or is really all about. She is probably on par with the Catholic who only attends church on Christmas and Easter.

    Many of the even more involved JWs don’t know what the religion teaches. I have had friends who were elders insist that the organization doesn’t teach that all non-JWs are to be destroyed at Armageddon.

    WS

    • twistedsister69 says:

      Interesting point. That ties in with the comment I made some time ago, about most “devoted” jws being “slacker” types. I distinctly remember, after a public talk, bringing up a point from the talk, to another jw, and they looked at me like they had no clue what I was talking about. They had not even been paying attention! Probably slept thru the whole Goddamned talk! I think most of them sleep or just “vegetate” or “zone out” during the meetings. If they ever do “personal study”, it’s superficial. No wonder so many of those Bozos (including elders, as you mentioned – unless they were outright lying thru their teeth, which is a distinct possibility as well) have no real idea of Watchtower doctrine. They’re simply content with looking at the pretty pictures of the “new system” with its dancing pandas. lol As someone here recently commented, most jws SLEEP THRU LIFE!!!

    • messenger says:

      Actually we had a circuit overseer several years back. He addressed that question to publishers about non JW children-will they die at Harmagedon? After publishers made some comments, his comment (answer) was, ‘we don’t know if non JW children will be destroyed.’

      From what I heard this guy got promoted to somewhere after he left us. So, that could be a WT belief that they are not writing about, or just his opinion….it could go either way.

      • Winston Smith says:

        I think they have been watering down their message about destruction at Armageddon over the last several years, although the underlying idea is still there. Perhaps they are learning the truth of the saying that you ‘catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?’

        This is the way they state it now: “many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation.” See https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/who-saved/. Of course, those of us who have been associated and paying attention know that by the phrase ‘begin to serve God’ they mean becoming active Jehovah’s Witnesses.

        When my friend the elder tried to use this article to disprove the fact that JWs teach that all non-members will die at the Big A, I told him that the website was designed for the general public and that they were likely cautious of making overly dogmatic statements. But what they write in the pages of the Watchtower and other publications was more emphatic.

        Admittedly, I did have to go back at least 10 years for some of these statements, and the further back I went the more emphatic they got:
        *** w06 5/15 p. 22 par. 8 Are You Prepared for Survival? ***
        Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.

        *** w89 9/1 p. 19 par. 7 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium ***
        7 Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.

        It’s a long quote so I won’t list out here, but also see the w58 10/15 pp. 614-615 where it says that 99.9% of the world’s people will be destroyed, even if they profess faith in Christ and belong to a (nominal) Christian religion.

        WS

        • twistedsister69 says:

          I got a chuckle out of “Supreme Organizer”. As Brig. Gen. Steve Ritchie said in that video clip, every activity/organization has its own unique language. Well, Watchtower’s “lingo” is pretty f***ed up!!! 😀 😀 😀

        • Ricardo says:

          @Winston Smith

          Could part of the problem with the average witness not knowing what our religion teaches be because the GB seems to have a schizophrenic explanation as to the fate of most people?

          At times the GB explains in the way you have given as examples: all non-witnesses will die.

          And yet w08 4/1 p31 seems to explain what most witnesses believe in their hearts: God’s battle is directed solely against those humans whom God judges to be incorrigibly wicked.

          This same idea regarding the destruction of only the incorrigible wicked is repeated in w12 10/1 p7&8, w11 9/1 p10, w04 7/15 p10-15 etc (put ‘incorrigible wicked’ in the search field for jw online library.

          So, to marry the two explanations, this must mean that all the good people who are not incorrigibly wicked will become witnesses before Armageddon. Can we see that happening? Can we see the rush to get baptized and come to our kingdom halls? No.

          Something doesn’t make sense with the explanation by the GB.

          Personally, I see it as an American business technique borrowed by the GB: join us NOW otherwise you will suffer.

          • dee2 says:

            What is even more schizophrenic is the fact that the “incorrigibly wicked” who die BEFORE Armageddon will be resurrected while the
            “incorrigibly wicked” who are alive when Armageddon strikes will be destroyed forever………probably best to get a head start by committing suicide.

          • dee2 says:

            ^^^………probably best to get a head start by committing suicide BEFORE ARMAGEDDON STRIKES.

          • Winston Smith says:

            Another way to look at the two statements is to say that anyone who refuses to convert to being a Jehovah’s Witness is incorrigibly wicked.

            WS

        • Johnny Walker (Black) says:

          @winston – don’t have to get up pretty early to fool some of us, but this line:
          “many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation.”

          salvation = eternal life (never die), so…

          let’s see-
          ‘many now living may never die’

          ‘millions now living will never die’

          The only thing watered down is the liquor in the marketing department because the slogans are definitely getting more cerebral and less catchy.

        • messenger says:

          Yes Winston, and as I stated I haven’t seen that statement from the circuit overseer in writing. I don’t know if he was instructed to bring that up, or if he decided to share his opinion with us.

          • Winston Smith says:

            Due to my many interactions with CO’s as an elder, I learned that many of them begin to believe they can take liberty with some of the teachings and that they can express their own opinions as facts. In some cases one circuit overseer would tell us (the elder body) to do something a certain way and the next circuit overseer would tell us the exact opposite. It was maddening quite frankly.

            In the case you mention, you probably were getting his opinion. If you read Crisis of Conscience, you will find that even the GB members are not in agreement and often teach their own opinions to others.

            WS

  27. Sardec says:

    She can say those things because she’s rich and famous.

  28. lisa says:

    I find the double standard unnerving not only do we have to give up our dreams and passions and gifts but we must find work that does not interfere with meetings. For So many this has been working as cleaners and janitors. The pay is not good and if you own your own company someone undercuts it. I have seen though many who have gone to college as nurses lawyers etc and no-one cared yet how is it that some are able to go while others get counseled for it. In fact how is it that Prince was able to continue his career when the rest of us had to give up ours. I remember in older magazines they featured famous people who had to give up careers to become a witness. One comes to mind the actress who played Get Christy Love another was a famous Spanish actress who gave her career up to become a witneddsge sold tacos in Mexico after. Another wad a famouse country western singer from the 50S. Its just hypocritical.

    • messenger says:

      The WT is constantly giving advice JWs are not required to follow, but encouraged to follow. There was a guy who was arguing that point on another thread, and he was partially correct-when we don’t recognize WT’s many rules that are enforced with severe sanctions. Witnesses can go to universities, be professional actors and musicians, or become other types of professionals without receiving severe sanctions from WT, like they would receive from smoking, voting, or celebrating Christmas. The lesser sanctions for not following WT advice may not even be verbally explained to them when implemented. Perhaps those sanctions are only discussed among the elders, and sometimes not even that but implemented by a single elder who discusses it with no one.

      Most Witnesses follow these WT suggestions. Others, like many on this site, do not. Its not that these others are living hypocritical lives, instead they do not agree with some WT advice and therefore don’t apply those things they don’t agree with in their lives. It would actually be hypocritical if they did apply those suggestions they didn’t agree with. Many of these Witnesses still believe in WT, but do not believe in all of WT’s opinions. Probably a great number of current WT members who read this site fit this description.

  29. messenger says:

    When I was a little boy of four, five, & six I used to sleep at the meetings, because I didn’t understand what was being said. Now that I’m much older I start to sleep at the meetings because I do know what’s being said.

    Sleepy-head.

    • Ricardo says:

      @messenger

      I go to sleep during the meetings so I don’t need to hear what is being said.

    • Ricardo says:

      Although I couldn’t get back to sleep after what I heard in the last meeting: the danger of ‘magic’ plastic figures. That damned Shylock, the wizard.

      I realized I would have to throw out my son’s story book about Jack and the Beanstalk, because those beans were magic. And Jehovah doesn’t like magic. It leads to Satan. Those flaming beans, I never realized how dangerous they were. Demonic, wicked seeds. They could have sent me out the truth. But thanks to Caleb, I’m safe.

      I really used to like that story about Jack.

    • Ricardo says:

      I am so glad that the Governing Body sees the need to micro-manage nearly every aspect of my life. I could make some terrible decisions if I had to use my Bible-trained conscience. By making decisions for me in even these small matters, I no longer need to use my brain for anything. I am in a blessed spiritual paradise.

      • Rodger Goode says:

        Mate, serious -you need to make some decisions!

        • Ricardo says:

          Decision already made, Rodger. The Jack and the Beanstalk book is gone. In the rubbish. Zippo. I couldn’t possibly let such an evil book interfere with my relationship with Jehovah. How could I live with myself, knowing I have gone against the GB’s very clear rules, if I kept the book? The book with the evil, devillish, ‘magic’ beans. Oh, those beans!

          • Rodger Goode says:

            Hahaha awesome Ricardo, I really feel for you mate, I understand that it is not easy to leave and have to deal with the consequences, but I worry for your health having to live two lives at the same time.

  30. dee2 says:

    Messenger,

    In one of your comments to me above, you stated:

    [ “What is your interest in the scriptures?
    I believe in your comments you say you don’t believe in the Bible, and if I read them correctly you probably no longer believe in God. So what is your interest in Bible interpretations?
    The Bible claims that only God gives understanding of it, to those he chooses to.
    The book claims that people who choose not to believe in him will never understand it for that reason.
    And from statements on this site its we see that some here don’t just have a beef against WT but also against the God of the Bible, if they still believe he exists at all.
    It seems to me this at least suggest the claim that only God allows people who desire to know him understand his word.
    Or, he hardens the hearts of ones that choose they don’t want to believe in him and allows them to confirm that belief in their own minds (not necessarily in reality)……….
    You probably use to believe in God, or you wouldn’t know about as many scriptures as you do. ” ]

    • dee2 says:

      By stating this, you are trying to censure my comments and discredit me as you are hoping that readers will reject what I have to say without even reading it (sounds a lot like the GB).

      You only want the comments in this forum to confirm your cherished beliefs, not question/challenge them (sounds a lot like the GB).

      Your frustration is evident when the flaws/fallacies in your arguments are exposed.

      As far as I know, this is an ex-JW website. If you do not want your beliefs to be questioned/ challenged then you are in the wrong place. This forum is not for you.

      You should be careful how you attack commenters on this website as you risk violating the website’s rules. And just so that you know, the owner of this website is not a Bible believer, he is a self-declared atheist.

      Your Bible and belief in its God may bring you comfort and security. It frightens you to question/critically examine the Bible because for you, this is equivalent to questioning God, and that’s extremely frightening – God may just do something bad to you or punish you for questioning him.

      You are you so petrified, terrified and scared of God’s retribution that your fear of his retribution prevents you from realizing that for some persons, the Bible is nothing more than just a book, about which extraordinary claims have been made and those claims need to be verified.

      These persons are doing exactly as the Bible instructs:
      “Test every inspired expression (Bible) to see if it originates with God or not” (1 John 4:1).

      Best wishes.

    • dee2 says:

      Your Bible & belief in its God may bring you comfort and security. It frightens you to question/critically examine the Bible because for you, this would mean questioning God and that’s extremely frightening – God may just do something bad to you or punish you for questioning him.

      You are you so petrified, terrified and scared of God’s retribution that your fear of his retribution prevents you from realizing that for some persons, the Bible is nothing more than just a book, about which extraordinary claims have been made and those claims need to be verified.

      These persons are doing exactly as the Bible instructs:
      “Test every inspired expression (Bible) to see if it originates with God or not” (1 John 4:1).

      Best wishes.

    • dee2 says:

      It is apparent to me that you only want the comments in this forum to confirm your cherished beliefs, not question, challenge them (sounds a lot like the GB).

      Your frustration is evident when the flaws, fallacies in your arguments are exposed.

      As far as I know, this is an ex-JW website. If you do not want your beliefs to be questioned, challenged then you are in the wrong place. This forum is not for you.

      Best wishes.

  31. dee2 says:

    Messenger,

    BTW, how does God harden my heart? What does he do? Does he go inside my head and change my thoughts or waves a magic wand which zaps the neurons in my brain despite having given me “free” will?

    God hardens my heart when I use my God-given “free” will to critically analyze and question what is in the Bible because my so-called “free” will is not supposed to be used in that way?
    I am just supposed to gullibly accept what the Bible says, no questions asked?

  32. Granof2 says:

    I wasn’t baptized at a time when I was associated with jw’s. I was disassiciated 3x and publicly reproved 1x. Oh, I forgot. …I’m not a celebrity. Im not pouring $$$ into the hands of the org. They eventually labeled me an apostate. Because I dared to question!!!

  33. Ted says:

    Hi Dee2, If God has hardened your heart, maybe he’s about to
    demonstrate his power on you, remember pharaoh!
    Wouldn’t it have saved a lot of trouble if God had softened his
    heart instead of hardening it? Not as much fun for God though,
    no one to try out his bag of tricks on, why does he always do it
    the hard way?

    Following that example, he seems to have hardened the heart
    of the vile org, against the cries and suffering of many abused
    children. I wonder what plagues he has in store for them!

  34. Free Thinker says:

    It is a well-known fact that the JW.Org is preaching water unto others while it itself savors the finest wines. While her rank&file folks are admonished to “be modest”, “be content with sustenance and shelter”, “lead a simple life”, forgo a satisfying career and eke out a gray-mouse-living as window cleaners, janitors etc. way below their talents and qualifications – whenever someone who has an impressive resume, academic titles, who is “well off”, “high-stationed” and way above the social strata of the typical “obedient” and “submissive” JW endorses the JW.Org-cult, they won’t send him/her away but use him/her to embellish their image. “Looky here, we are not all blockheads and dumbasses, ooooooh noooo, we also have ‘smart’ and ‘educated’ people – lawyers, engineers, artists …”, as if this was a prove of the “good quality” of the JW-religion.

    From my own “theocratic career”-experience, I can tell and could observe first-hand numerous times that the “Bethels” are greedy – greedy like hell for the soul of sinners! – for anyone having some kind of “academic degree” – esp. a law degree (for obvious reasons). And when they find someone like that who wants to “serve at Bethel”, s/he is fawned on and flattered, and moves ahead & upwards very quickly, while others who “obediently” forwent “higher edu” and stayed low key and had already served “faithfully” for years at mediocre jobs may watch their taillights disappear in cloudy heights. That’s a fact, that’s JW.Org-life-reality. That’s hypocrisy par excellence, it’s sickening.

  35. MartinD says:

    Standard JW beach attire:
    http://www.si.com/swimsuit/model/serena-williams/2017/photos#14

    Go on ladies. If it is OK for her, it is OK for you.

  36. Silas Thompson says:

    Could anyone confirm whether Selena Williams is a baptised member of Jehovahs Witnesses.
    It makes all the difference.
    I don’t know if she is.
    I reside in the UK
    Most genuine Witnesses don’t make a song and dance of it to the media.
    By the way there are more important issues i.e.

    President Trump, today says ;
    “Tonight I call on all civilised nations in seeking to end the slaughter and bloodshed in Syria and also to end terrorism of all kinds and all types.
    We ask for God’s wisdom as we face the challenge of our very troubled world. We pray for the lives of the wounded and the souls of those who have passed.
    And we hope that as long as America stands for justice, peace and harmony will prevail. Good night and God bless America and the entire world”

    According to Bible prophecy when the nations of this system feel confident they will proclaim Peace and Security, but it will be just a veneer. 1 Thessalonians 5 vs 3 states “Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape

    This “suddenness” will be according to the Bible prophecy concerning the beast that the harlot rides pictures the world’s political powers.* (Revelation 17:10-13) False religion straddles the back of this political beast, attempting to influence its decisions and to control its direction.
    Soon, though, an amazing event will take place. “The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.” (Revelation 17:16) In a sudden, shocking move, the world’s political powers will turn on false religion and completely destroy her! What will prompt this action?

    The Bible book of Revelation answers: “God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought.” (Revelation 17:17) Yes, God will call false religion to account for all the despicable acts she has committed in his name. In a stroke of perfect justice, he will use her political paramours as his instrument of execution.

    I urge you to take note of President Trump’s speech above, it’s a continuation of a series of prophesied events leading the USA and Britain ( Anglo American World Power) to give more and more teeth and power to the Worlds Political powers under the “umbrella” of the UN, who will soon act for Jehovah God.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Silas,
      You have been very busy tonight.

      Please consider that the UN is becoming more and more irrelevant in today’s world. Soon, if nothing gets done, it could likely disappear. What we as Witnesses should be getting excited about is when a major event happens, such as the UN being reformed to make it more relevant, more effective and more representational of today’s world. Once a reformation has taken place and this has received the confidence of the nations, then no doubt a cry of peace and security might take place.

      When we see the reformation happening, crow as loud as you can, Silas.

      But crowing like crazy over a little thought bubble which Trump has come out with is embarrassing. It makes the Witnesses look as if we get very excited over quite minor happenings.

      And unfortunately, we do. How many times can you yell Wolf! until people think you are crazy and stop listening?

      • Silas Thompson says:

        Ricardo,
        Calm down.
        Obviously my sense of humour and sense of irony is not travelling well across the Atlantic. Must be a British thing.
        The information I share comes from the Bible, which although many don’t believe it to be true, it is impossible for any person on Earth to disprove it as being authentic.

        For example Daniel was inspired to write about World powers that would come on the scene e.g. Greece, Medes & Persians, The Romans, Britain, America etc etc. The details in the prophecies in the Book of Daniel that have been fulfilled and come true are nothing short of amazing, yet the only reason most unbelievers will dismiss it, is by saying that it must of been written after the events. Only by doing research will they and you be able to see how ludicrous a statement that is.

      • Silas Thompson says:

        Ricardo,
        Calm down.
        Obviously my sense of humour and sense of irony is not travelling well across the Atlantic. Must be a British thing.
        The Information that I share with you comes from the Bible. Yes many People don’t believe in the Bible and no ones forcing anyone to. But one thing for sure, try as they might, it is impossible for any one on Earth to disprove it as authentic.
        For example Daniel was inspired to write about World powers that would come on the scene e.g. Greece, Medes & Persians, The Romans, Britain, America etc etc. The details in the prophecies in the Book of Daniel that have been fulfilled and come true are nothing short of amazing, yet the only reason most unbelievers will dismiss it, is by saying that it must of been written after the events. Only by doing research will they and you be able to see how ludicrous a statement that is.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Silas,
          Ha ha, calm down. It’s not me who is all excited and making multiple posts of the same thing.

          I have given a response to your questions at the post ‘Echos of the 1930’s’ but it is being moderated so it may take some time. Sometimes 3 days. While somehow those illuminati guys get straight in.

          Your waiting for an operation on your knee? Hope you’ve reduced your weight. That lightens the load put on it.

          Hear from you some more after modulation.

  37. Ricardo says:

    It has just been announced that Serena is pregnant. Which means she was pregnant when she won the Australian Open. Which means she believes Jehovah blessed her while she was being immoral, a fornicator. Wow, does that really work? Maybe I should go out and jump into bed with someone, but buy a lotto ticket beforehand. Who knows, maybe Jehovah will bless me with a win as well.

    She must have been repentant, obviously.