It’s been nearly three years since JWsurvey was launched and we began posting blog articles on JW-related subjects.
In that period we have been beset by more than our fair share of Watchtower defenders and apologists, who have shown great commitment in chastising anyone who would speak negatively of “Jehovah’s organization.”
The irony, of course, is that Witnesses who comment on this website do so in direct defiance of the instructions of their leaders, the Governing Body, who have made it abundantly clear in the publications that Witnesses are not to comment on the blogs of ‘apostates’ (any who reject Watchtower teachings).
But this doesn’t stop loyal advocates of Watchtower having their say, and I for one am glad of their albeit conflicted behavior. Provided such ones don’t become abusive or insulting, or try to turn this website into their own private soapbox, it’s quite an educational experience for people visiting this blog to see for themselves how profoundly Watchtower indoctrination can influence people – to the point where they will defend the indefensible.
I’ve personally been trying to reason with apologists both here and on other sites for years using various lines of argument, admittedly with little success. There is, however, one argument I’ve stumbled on that tends to stop loyal JWs in their tracks, or causes them to quickly change the subject. I’ve grown so weary of repeating it, with no reply, that I’ve decided to turn it into a video that can be easily posted as a response to apologists whenever (or wherever) they emerge. Here it is…
As stated in the video, whatever argument an apologist may use to defend Watchtower, whether it is about charitable work, or political neutrality, or preaching prowess, it should all boil down to one question – “is it true, or isn’t it?”
If the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses are true, there should be bountiful evidence to back them up. It should be easy, for example, to prove the teachings surrounding 1914, 1919 and Christ’s selection of the “faithful slave” (beyond the non-argument “it’s true because we say it is”).
Any attempt to reason away the need to give evidence for such foundational teachings, upon which the very authority of the Governing Body is based, deserves to be met with the same derision that Witnesses might unleash on believers of other religions.
The Mormons, for example, believe that Joseph Smith had the Book of Mormon conveyed to him in the form of golden plates, which conveniently disappeared once he had finished dictating their contents from behind a curtain.
A Mormon would no doubt take exception to a Witness deriding him for basing his entire belief system on a story that is completely unverifiable. But should not Witness beliefs be open to the same scrutiny? How is it possible to either prove or disprove the arrival of an invisible Jesus in 1914, or his inspection of the bible students between that year and 1919?
As the popular saying goes, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” If a religion makes unfalsifiable claims aimed at venerating itself above other faiths, it is not the duty of me or anyone else to disprove those claims. The burden of evidence rests with the person making them. This is especially true when family relationships or even life itself is in the balance, as is the case with Watchtower’s position on shunning and blood transfusions.
Though I have no doubt that my “Cedars Challenge” will continue unanswered (and that JWsurvey will be around for many more years to come), I can at least hope that it will prompt some indoctrinated Witnesses to think.
The universe offers enough marvels and wonders upon which our minds can ruminate without any need for us to allow transient religious dogma to stifle our intellects, supplant our need for evidence and free inquiry, and potentially decimate our families.
anonymous
Your far from dense. The finished mystery goes on and gets more mysterious.
Some of those books on revelations that we waded through at the Tuesday
group study were unintelligible. Brothers complained, they didn’t
understand them. I conducted the study and I didn’t understand them.
The important thing was underlining the printed answer in the paragraph.
and answering up, connecting the dots didn’t seem to matter,
we didn’t know where to put them anyway.
To think we used to bring our children to these mind numbing sessions.
What kept them focused was the ice pops they got after the study,
they couldn’t wait for the Amen.
Gareth, I thought that if I could explain those articles, then you’d think I was really smart but I give up. My brain just can’t hold that much information. Let the Society laugh. I think that was the point in the first place.
Hi anonymous. In my book you’re smart: honestly researching this stuff trying to understand it. I think you understand the article as far as that’s possible… I guess what bothers you is the implications of that: they are enormous, and in conflict with what happens in practice. I have exactly the same problem as you, I tried to reason with my mom. Her response was: well, not all things in life are logical. Love isn’t logical, faith isn’t always logical. So that settles it then… *crying*
As the “slave” hasn’t been given authority over all belongings yet, there are two possibilities:
1) all disfellowshippings have been rescinded, and there are no grounds for shunning/judging any longer (because they have no authority to decide who is “in God’s organisation” or not)
2) the GB run their own little group, and it all has nothing to do with God or his purpose.
Now, which one is it? :-) (If I missed a possibility, tell me)
Don’t you know they’re brainwashed and can’t be reasoned with? Don’t you remember when YOU were brainwashed? There was a time when I was brainwashed and there was nothing anyone could say to me to convince me the Governing Body didn’t have The Truth. It’s pointless, Cedars.
But I do have fun asking this question to JWs….”If the New System isn’t here in 20 years, does that make it more likely The Governing Body have The Truth or that they’re false prophets?”
So, reasoning with indoctrinated people is pointless? Fair enough! (Points awkwardly at “A Quick Question” in the sidebar)
As it happens I can well remember what it was like to be under Watchtower’s undue influence. I was fearful of all information that didn’t come from Watchtower, but that didn’t mean such information wasn’t capable of making me thing if I was exposed to it, even for a few seconds. I can still remember the questions that rumbled on in my mind for years after seeing an apostate sign at a convention that read “don’t be a Watchtower slave!”
To be honest, people who claim activism doesn’t work bore and frustrate me. Though being beneficiaries of it in some form (Crisis of Conscience, JWfacts.com etc, are all products of activism) they tend to be unwilling to try it themselves and therefore condemn anyone else who is willing to roll their sleeves up, perhaps due to guilt at sitting on their arses while others get the job done.
Don’t get me wrong, I realize activism isn’t for everyone (my wife included), but I have zero patience for people who effectively say “phew, I made it out from my indoctrination, screw everyone else!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dyN1boeRKg
I agree plant a doubt and when one is sitting in the KH and something comes up that may make the doubter think, well this is something that the apostates were right about.
But I think basically it has to do with fear, I remember taking to a relative about a few things, and they screamed “I don’t care” to much to lose for many JW, work, family, status, social and some being in all their lives and are old have no other place and this is scary.
But others can’t live with what they know and have a crisis of conscience.
Brother David, every time someone comes on this web site and tries to convince us all that we are wrong in condemning the Governing Body, we are hopeful that if they at least come on this web site, that that they might be the kind of person who is open minded enough to consider the reasons why we have a gripe against the Governing Body and realize they are wrong and we are right. I am hoping some of these people come on later and admit they were wrong, but they just disappear. They were probably brainwashed enough that they thought they could come on this site and count their time in Witnessing and finally gave up. Yes, their brains are made of stone, in my opinion. I know a lot of Witnesses whose brains don’t have the ability to reason. These people who try and “reason” with us, don’t have anything except quoting what Watchtower says. They can’t come up with a simple answer to Cedar’s question. They try for a while and give up because they don’t have anything to back up their claims.
The vast majority of Witnesses are still brainwashed enough that they are too fearful to look at Cedars’ website or any other web site, other than jw.org. But the ones that do come on this web site are somewhat open-mind enough to consider the fact that they are in the wrong religion. I agree it’s a lost cause for those still in the Org. and I and many,many others would be so disappointed if Cedars’ gave up, asking that simple question. It is the bedrock of that religion and each and every one should be able to answer such a simple question.
I am hoping that more and more people come to Cedars’ web site BEFORE they get involved in the first place and that they have enough common sense in their heads that when a Bible study is offered to them, that they refuse it.
I think there are millions and millions of people in the world that when they see a Witness at their door, that they really fear Armageddon because of seeing these Witnesses out and about, preaching the “end” but just don’t want to get involved with us because of having to go door to door themselves and hate the idea. They are afraid of Armageddon because they aren’t armed with enough good information against what the Witnesses have to say.
John’s site is the only one that I know of that actually does give a voice to all the rest of us who are still in the “cult” and can’t escape. I have tried telling people in my family and congregation and all it does, is make them think I am sick in the head and then they are now fearful of me because they think I have been over-taken by the devil.
I am one that like John, saw things for years, that didn’t make sense to me but went along with it, only because I was all alone and didn’t have others to confirm what I had been doubting but because I felt all alone, I had to keep my thoughts to myself. I made a simple comment to my family one time, that I thought that the Hebrew Scriptures was nothing but a “history” book of the Jews, and I had to go to the elders and report my apostate “thinking” so I could be absolved of my sin.
I had doubts for years and years but my only impetus to keep going, was my fear of dying at Armageddon and my children dying at Armageddon. It’s people like us who refuse to have somebody else tell us what we can and can’t read, that John’s web site is appealing to and will have the courage to click on it and hopefully, with just that one question, will make them stop and think for once in their life.
Even if we can’t be telling our friends and relatives that they are being taken advantage of, at least we don’t have to go in service and preach lies to people anymore and have a good conscience from here on out. I am holding on, hoping that more and more people get brave enough to go onto John’s web site and voice their doubts too. It’s knowing that you aren’t alone, is what makes a person brave enough to at least stop supporting the Watchtower.
If enough of us “fade” (hopefully millions of us) and refuse to support the Watchtower anymore, even if we aren’t in the position to “resign” they will be forced to either change their policies or admit the real truth about the “truth” and give all the rest who are still trapped in it, a choice of whether they still want to be a part of it.
I am hoping the Org. closes down and then all the “friends” can get together for tea once a week or play cards at the hall or something if they really miss the association. I am sure they’d all still like to get together, even if it’s just to read and discuss the Bible together.
I think John realized it was a lost cause trying to convince those who are coming onto his web site to come up with any evidence but now all he has to do is put that video up. It’s put up or shut up, right?
Every time I try and talk to my husband with any common sense question, why he so staunchly believes in the “truth” as he sees it with the Org. he just gets mad but every time I say something to him like “John Cedars keeps saying that if anybody can come up with anything at all to prove that Jehovah chose this organization in 1919, please do it and he “John” has said he will close down his web site, it shuts my husband up, right then and there. So, that question works. Any other reason they stay with the Org. is just because their minds are made of stone but those people aren’t coming on this site anyway so why worry about what “they” might think? Let them waste their lives on a fantasy if that’s the way they insist on being? If we try to talk to them and they refuse to listen to us, then at least we can live with ourselves that we tried.
Kat
You are right, A single thought can raise a doubt, causing
someone to look a bit deeper into what they have accepted
as the truth.
This is exactly what happened in my case. It was a statement
I read regarding the, 144000, “If that is a literal number, then
the 12 tribes that the number is taken from must also be
literal.
Looking up Rev, 7/4-5, I realised something didn’t make sense
with the W,T, explanation. In verse 5 the very first line.
12,000 sealed from the tribe of Judah, how can it be said the
number is literal but the tribe of Judah is to be taken as symbolic.?
How can half a sentence be literal and the other half symbolic?
I came to the conclusion that both the number , and the tribes
were meant to be symbolic like the rest of Revelations,
a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns for instance.
The stock answer given by J,W’s, to support the literal 144,000,
Is to go to verse 9 of ch, 7 “A great crowd that no man could
count”, this argument too , can be disposed of.
To avoid going into a protracted discussion of verse 9, anyone
who is concerned enough to know the truth,needs to do what
I had to do.. Put the W,T, away and use the Bible to to research
the subject themselves. Of course it’s much easier to let
someone else tell you what to believe.
Hi, anonymous.
I just read your last comment, and I agree. Couldn’t have said it any better.
It’s not pointless. It’s just pointless to expect immediate results, which are extremely rare. After all, it doesn’t work like that for the JWs trying to convert others.
Sites like this (and reasoning with JWs) provide two things: seeds of doubt, and guidance for those who are already on their difficult way out.
Seeds of doubt can be planted, but they may sprout in a month, a year, a decade, or never. You just don’t know. Guidance for those beginning to see the exit may seem pointless at first (“hey, they’re exiting already”), but I’ve seen too many who gave up and returned to the fold. Not because they were convinced it’s the truth, but because they were unsure and feared the consequences.
Some also return simply because they don’t know anything else, and, to them, it’s a scary, scary world out there.
Hi Gareth. If I was disfellowshipped, I might take that July 15, 2013 and challenge my elders to explain that to me that the F & D slave hasn’t yet been appointed yet over all his “belongings” and show them the older magazines where it shows that that is what gave the Governing Body the authority to disfellowship them in the first place.
There’s a lot of places in the older Watchtowers where it’s pointed out that that is where they get the authority to come up with all their rules because supposedly Jesus appointed them over all his “belongings” in 1919 and that article made it real plain that it never happened in 1919.
They have always made that claim to power because that Jesus conferred it on them in 1919 but I think because there are so many people coming out with videos debunking the literature in 1919 (The Finished Mystery) and debunking 607, so I think that it was just a weak attempt to draw attention away from what was being printed in 1919 but like I said, I think very few got the implication at all. All they did was underline their Watchtowers and try and answer from the paragraph and didn’t scratch their head over it and give it another thought.
Last year that point went right over my head and I think it went right over everybody else’s head too, but to me, it’s really big, now that I have finally come “awake” from Watchtower indoctrination and realize the implications.
I think that article left it up in the dark as far as what that meant on purpose but to me, it’s a chunk of meat that I’d not let go of if I was disfellowshipped.
I think there isn’t an elder anywhere that can explain it to anybody because they didn’t get it either. They don’t want to bother their brains over it because it was meant to be complicated and hard to understand and keep it all straight and they are programed not to question the Society, so they just accepted it without a whimper.
If anybody questions the elders on it, I think they just might send some letters to Headquarters in New York. I’d like to see the Society answer it in the Watchtower and see where their authority comes from now except only to provide spiritual “food”.
From Winston’s youtube videos Watchtower Examination, he said that it was only 6 months later that the Society came up with “new light” over that Watchtower. Boy, 6 months later, new light already. I don’t know how I could have been so blind all those years???
I think the Society took that “being appointed over all of Christ’s belongings in 1919 way to seriously and that it was an “excuse” to become “dictators”. Just my opinion. I don’t know if the motive was to keep the org. clean or to “lord it over the flock”. But that was their excuse then and now. So what is their excuse now? Do they still have that authority or not? Or is it just to provide the “food” in due season?” I think they should explain what it means instead of leaving the whole thing up in the air like that Watchtower did.
Thanks for saying you don’t think I am stupid, by the way. I was very stupid for over 47 years but now my brain is finally coming back to life again. I am so glad that I still have a brain left after being dormant for such a long time.
Being educated regarding the Watchtower is a bit like taking off on a rainy day & going above the clouds. No more need for worry, fear & depression. As the words of one song put it, ‘I’m going backwards to where I’m in control’.
Since most here despise the JW faith I would like to know if anyone here supports any other faith? Or,do you feel that all should be avoided?
I don’t “despise” the JW faith any more than I despise belief in unicorns or the idea that Elvis is alive and well. I am merely incredulous to it. I make no secret of the fact that I despise the Watch Tower Society, since it is responsible for much pain and suffering. What is your position on the JW faith?
I am greatly disappointed at what has been going on for years in the faith and really dislike the extreme manner in which people are being treated when they don’t agree with everything that is printed in the Watchtower magazine.
I was excommunicated back in February 2013 for accepting a blood transfusion when my left foot had to be amputated due to complications with Diabetes. Since then,none of the “friends” have truly been a friend. Even most of my own family will not have anything to say to me until they need some money. So, I can certainly empathize with many people here. I can understand the need for disfellowshipping at times, but I strongly disagree with the extreme manner in which it is practiced among the JW. In my opinion the Elders just abuse the policy and make a mockery of it.
Hi Cedars, I agree with most of what you say but please do some research on the Benefits of Bloodless Surgery. There are more and more hospitals offering this because the demand for it is increasing. People who are not jehovah’s witnesses are educating themselves about the benefits of bloodless surgery. The organization is indeed destructive, abusive and evil in many ways but, the teaching regarding blood is scriptural and the benefits are backed by science.
yinshing – thank you for visiting this site and sharing your comment with us. I think, however, you are missing the point. Nobody is disputing that there is value in bloodless surgery. But there will always be cases where, due to lack of resources or the scale or urgency of the situation, a blood transfusion is the only option to preserve life. In those cases, a person should be free to make a decision that will preserve his or her life rather than feeling religious coercion to die rather than accept treatment.
The Witness prohibition on blood is considered first-and-foremost a divine law rather than a health issue. If it turned out blood transfusions were completely risk free, they would still be considered banned because “God’s law is higher than man’s law.” But the simple truth is, the Bible cannot be made to comment on medical procedures that would not be invented for thousands of years after its final pages were written. There are other issues too surrounding Watchtower’s interpreting of the blood issue that are worthy of your research, and some of these are discussed in this excellent article… http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blood-transfusions.php
I would like to recommend this link about blood transfusions:
http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/blood-transfusions/
The jwfacts.com article is excellent and thorough, but I like the above because it’s more a take-you-by-the-hand step-by-step approach.
yinshing, I agree with you. Bloodless has been proven to be best….if no complications arise. If I lose too much blood or start bleeding out and it becomes medically necessary, I reserve the right to accept blood to save my life.
It is when I am denied that right to choose for myself what my doctors feel is best for me, and there is no scriptural basis for that denial, that the policy of the Watchtower becomes reprehensible to me. Lives are literally at stake and the GB has no Bible authority to impose their decision on anyone, or punish someone who disagrees by disfellowshipping them.
Biggiecuzz, I am so sorry to hear about what you have been through. Not only losing your foot, but losing your family and friends. Unless they need money! What hypocrites!
What the GB has put you through is unnecessary, it’s cruel and heartless. I honestly believe that Jesus has much compassion and understanding and has not stopped loving you for making a choice that was yours to make. Please hold onto that thought. Jesus does not desert us in our time of need, and you have nothing to feel guilt about.
You will find unconditional love, acceptance and encouragement from us here. We have all suffered to some degree because of GB policies and the willingness of Jehovah’s Witnesses to go along with those policies.
I do not hate the individual members, they don’t know any better, or if they do, they fear losing their family and friends the way you have.
What I do hate are the actions of the GB. They lead Jesus sheep astray by deceit for their own greedy selfish purposes.
I welcome you to this site and hope that you will find the love and comfort you so deserve.
With much Christian love and support
Your sister
Imacountrygirl2,
Thank you for the kind words and support. I just don’t understand why the brothers cannot follow Jehovah’s or Jesus’ example in showing love and mercy. God forgave king Manasseh after all the evil things he did and Jesus forgave Paul even when he was supportive in the killing of Christians. Just where is the love for our fellow man among the JW’s? It seems like they are only interested in following rules of men.
I agree Gail, and especially with family still in, but still it would be very hard after coming to the knowledge of the real truth about the religion, one would continue to have a crisis of conscience. Its a catch twenty two really.
Bloodless surgery is definitely a good thing, but it is, obviously, not always the solution to a problem.
My mother had hip replacement surgery done years ago, and she was able to find a doctor who was willing to perform the operation without blood. She did well, but surgery, which is generally planned, is very different from an emergency situation.
The emergency situation is exactly what occurred with my father several years later. He had a heart condition and was on blood thinners. My mother had to go to the hospital for a minor procedure and during the time she was away, my father, due to stress, developed a small intestinal fissure.
Generally, a small tear like that would heal quickly with no complications, but because of the blood thinners, my father’s blood would not clot.
He tried to pretend that there was no problem, and he continued losing blood for three days until my mother, who was home by then, noticed the problem.
The blood issue, of course, came up while he was in the emergency room, since nothing that they tried to stop the bleeding worked. When I went to see my father after my mother called me, he looked like a living corpse, with dead-white skin and blue lips and he was in a coma from blood loss.
My mother was in a turmoil, knowing that only a blood transfusion could save his life but knowing that JWs were forbidden to take blood.
It was clear cut. My father would die without blood, but he would definitely live if he accepted the transfusion. Miraculously, he briefly came out of his coma, turned to the doctor and said that he would accept the transfusion, and then lapsed back into a coma.
Needless to say, he lived, and in this case “bloodless surgery” was not applicable and ONLY a transfusion could have saved him.
Gail N
You are so right, When I was at Bethel, an elderly brother
who had been there longer than anyone could remember
said. “I’d sooner be dead than than be out there”.
Biggiecuzz
All religions are selling salvation on their terms, that’s why the
doctrine of sin was invented. It’s a money spinner
It’s estimated over a ton of gold plus other valuables was donated
for the tabernacle, Ex, 35-38.
In Jesus day the Temple had it’s treasury and the religious leaders
loved money Luke 16/14.
The Catholic Church has opulent buildings and you could buy
indulgences, to reduce your time in purgatory. Hence the reformation
The W,T, has huge real estate holdings, and uses unpaid slave labour.
The Mormon church rakes in billions from tithing not to mention their
vast holdings.. I won’t go on .
All the wealth is made from us sinners, so if we want to carry a load
guilt all our lives and pay for the privilege , religion will do it.
Hi Anonymous,
What an excellent point you bring up regarding the “new light” about ALL of Christ’s belongings and the obvious question that raises, namely, where is the authority now coming from if that appointment isn’t made until the great tribulation?
This is another head scratching moment for me.
When that study article came out I asked anyone I could to explain what the heck they were talking about but honestly no one around me understood it.
My poor mother is afraid to pick up the phone when I call because she can’t answer or explain any of what I ask and gets very defensive. It’s so sad that she can’t reason they way she expects others too.
My first lightbulb moment was looking at the proclaimers book where it clearly shows pictures of the so called “cleansed and refined and chosen by Jesus Bible Students” celebrating Christmas, birthdays, using the cross…… Pyramids of Egypt Etc.
This made me feel incredulous….. I showed it to others who absolutely acted like it is no big deal.
I feel like I must be making more of this than I should….. Really?
My second lightbulb mind clearing moment was looking at Proverbs 4:18…… The go to answer for every change that’s made.
WELL has anyone back at HQ actually read the entire context of that verse starting with verse 14 all the way through verse 20?
It has nothing to do with scriptural enlightenment or (new light as they call it) it is simply a discussion of the differences between wickedness and righteousness.
Thank you for letting me vent and I know I am not going crazy or lacking in understanding or wisdom.
There is nothing wrong with asking questions.
Thanks.
Hi Dazed and Confused. My light bulb moment came when I went on Wikipedia last year under Jehovah’s Witnesses and it said that Jehovah’s Witnesses joined up with the United Nations from 1992 to 2002 when it was put in a newspaper and then the next day they took their name off the rolls. I thought it had to be a mistake and tried to prove it was wrong. Boy, did that open up a can of worms. Still it took me several months of intensive research on the history before I proved to myself that the Governing Body isn’t stupid about it at all. If they are that stupid so as to not know what is the real history of the Org. is, then they are too stupid to force us to “think” the way they “think” about anything or get disfellowshipped if we don’t “think” Governing Body “think”. How does the old saying go, “if a blind person leads another blind person, they will both fall into the pit.” Either the Governing Body is blind or else they are evil and care nothing about all the lives that have been lost to their man made rules. Either way, I have zero respect for them now and if there was a “hell”, I’d like to see them all rot in it for all the pain they have caused in the past and in the present and in the future.
Hi Anonymous,
Yes, I heard about the UN debacle a few years ago from my brother but I thought he was overreacting and I didn’t look into it- I assumed as probably many do that their membership for soley for access to photos and information for their articles.
But you mention the harm that has been done…. and I have to wonder if they could look our poor brothers from Malawi in the face after this.
I knew of brothers back in the 70’s who quit work at wood factories that made Christmas tree stands because of the influence of the watchtower articles at that time.
Yes, I agree that harm has been done and sometimes I think about Ray Franz and his wife and what they did to them…. I’ve decided that this organization is unlike many out there where the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing. Very few witnesses know anything about the history of their own religion.
I, for my part have told myself to just keep my mouth shut because I’m not around people who can handle the real truth…..
BTW… do you currently still attend meetings?
:-)
HI Dazed and Confused. I was gone for a month in May and then when I returned I went to only one meeting since then. At first, I felt bad but I keep myself informed with every new video I can watch and some over and over again on Youtube, especially Mike and Kim Brooks and Marc and Cora and John Cedars and Dallas Canada and Watchtower Examination on youtube. I watch them over and over again so that I don’t forget why I am not going to meetings and in service. I refuse to let myself be taken in by it anymore and even though I feel myself alone now without all those “friends” at the Kingdom Hall, I look more at them now as “victims” and my heart goes out to them but I also can’t speak to them why I am not going to meetings so it’s really awkward when I run into them on the street or the store. I have tried telling a few but very discretely, but only only one person who insisted that she wanted to know why I wasn’t attending anymore and she wasn’t going to tell anybody to get me in trouble and so I told her. Come to find out, she told me that she thought it was a terrible “mistake” that she got involved too because before she got involved, she was happy and ever since she got involved, she feels nothing but fear and depression. She isn’t baptized but I studied with her daughter and I apologized for it and told her that I actually thought it was the truth when I studied with her daughter but now I know the real truth about the truth. I gave her my copy of “Captives of a Concept” and she is going to try and talk to her daughter but unfortunately her daughter is really indoctrinated by now so she knows it’s going to be tough sledding to talk any sense into her now. She wanted me to tell everybody at the Hall what I told her but she just doesn’t understand what I am up against. I am sure most everyone who has disassociated themselves knows exactly what I am saying here. The Watchtower is the most horrible of cults and it can’t come to it’s destruction fast enough for me.
I agree that our friends at the hall are victims of victims as was pointed out.
I feel such a pull between the friends I have at the hall who are innocent and mean well…. Vs the “organization” which is so impersonal.
I wish you well!
Only one more person needed to sign the UN petition!
Who wants that exclusive privilege?
Just go below and click.
It doesn’t have to stop there since everyone’s comments and experiences are extremely important just as it is for people to read the UN Declarations on Human Rights and Religious Freedom and other Rights as laid out on the link posted!
One is needed but more signatures are welcome!
YOU! can get this ball rolling!
http://www.change.org/p/launch-an-investigation-to-determine-if-jehovah-s-witnesses-have-a-right-to-use-coercion-forms-of-mental-torture-to-force-its-members-not-to-leave
Activism can be good in many ways, but I think it should have it’s place. I see life as a pie chart made up of many segments of varying sizes. If we put all our energy into activism we leave nothing left. It should be balanced.
Cedars your way of activism has helped many including my family, I have found if I am doing some kind of activism it’s cathartic too.
I have also found that living my new life to the full is beneficial, so I put activism in it’s place.
Good luck with your challenge Cedars.
Kate xx
anonymous,
Dear Lady, I have the greatest respect for you as you know. Normally, I agree with you but I do need to humbly disagree with one of your comments.
“if there was a “hell”, I’d like to see them all rot in it for all the pain they have caused in the past and in the present and in the future.”
I’m sorry to disagree with you but I do not believe that anyone deserves to be punished like that. To your credit, you did not state that this torture would be everlasting, but it is still too much, even for men of this level of wickedness.
You have suffered so much more than I. I have deep sympathy for you and I believe that you are really better than that comment. I really do.
I am with you in bringing these men to justice, along with their Organisation.
I had to comment on Jerry Jones’ video where he said that JWs will die at Armageddon. I humbly offered Genesis 18 as something to think about. I believe that a Loving God has no need to kill anyone. Killing and its suffering are all too easy for human beings to accomplish. I expect much more from God than that.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Hi Excelsior. When I left that comment about them rotting in hell, at first I thought that it might have been too harsh but then I have been reading Apocalypse Delayed by M. James Penton and he tells about the horrible persecutions that JW’s have experienced all over the world due to the hypocritical flip-flopping of the Society’s neutrality stand and I stand behind my first statement.
I also can’t help but think about all the children who died because they were shamed into dying rather than taking blood, that the Society bragged about in the 1994 Awake magazine. I can’t help but think of the millions who have suffered in the past and are still suffering now because of having to live their lives according to their only “human” wisdom. I think at the very least, they come clean with the real history and take their “lumps” and if they don’t come clean, they deserve to die for their arrogance. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I am sure if they lived up to their own standards for the rest of us, they’d all die at Armageddon.
I know that “hell” is only the grave. It was only a statement to show my hatred of them. Death is the only penalty for sin and I know there’s no eternal hell fire.
“If” there was an eternal torment of hell fire, I can’t think of any more men deserving of it than the Governing Body. I am quoting directly from the 1934 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses, page 136 when they were trying to get on Hitler’s good side in 1933. When the rest of the world was condemning Hitler, this is what the Watchtower had to say and were proud of it or wouldn’t have printed it in their yearbook the following year.
“Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart.”
This letter was sent to Hitler, agreeing with him in the treatment of Jews, agreeing with Hitler in what he was doing. This letter was written by Fred Franz and Nathan Knorr. It was only after they sent this letter to Hitler and Hitler didn’t listen to them and started persecuting the Witnesses anyway, is when the Watchtower started turning on Hitler.
The only reason that the Witnesses in Mexico could bribe the officials so that the men didn’t have to go to prison rather than to jail was so that the Society didn’t have to give up ownership of their buildings in Mexico. They cared a “rat’s ass” as to what was happening in Malawi to all those brothers and sister and children over a 25 cent party card at the very same time. I could go on and on.
I just can’t think of a more evil crowd of men than the Governing Body. To me, death isn’t good enough. Sorry if I sound harsh, but that is exactly how I feel. You may be more forgiving but that’s nice for you. I am sure if there was a God out there who saw what these men are really like, he is also not forgiving of what they have done and are doing right now and will continue to do in the future as long as it benefits them and nobody else. They are evil and deserve death in my opinion. I hate them. According to the Bible, (if you are a Bible believer), it is okay to hate evil because God hates evil.
sometimes suicide seems the only way out of all this bickering , where is the truth where is the future ?
Suicide is never the way out. No matter how dark life gets (and I myself suffer with depression) there is always a better day, a silver lining. Irrespective of whether or not there is a supreme being who is interested in the minutiae of our lives, life is still a rare and beautiful gift not to be thrown away.
If you need to speak to someone, I can recommend these telephone numbers…
National Suicide Hotline (USA): 1 800 273 8255
National Suicide Hotline (Canada): 1-800-448-1833
Samaritans (UK): 08457 90 90 90
Samaritans (Ireland): 1850 60 90 90
Lifeline (Australia): 13 11 14
Lifeline (New Zealand): 0800 543 354
@man. Please don’t let yourself think like that. I almost did myself in when I was young and am so glad 40 years later. I have 3 children and 2 grandchildren who wouldn’t be here if I had died then. It was because of the religion that did that to me and I was trapped in it all those years.
Three months ago, I stopped going to meetings and the weight was lifted off my shoulders and I have better than I have in the last 40 years being “chained” to this religion.
I met a neighbor of mine the other day that I studied with her daughter but she herself only goes to meetings but not real regular and is not baptized. She told me that before she got involved with JW’s, she was happy and now all she feels is fear and depression. I think at least half the people in my Kingdom Hall are on anti-depressants and or prescription pain pills. You should talk to a therapist.
It’s the Governing Body who is doing this to you. There are more and more people who are exposing the Watchtower so it’s just a matter of time till they come down. Even if we don’t see it happen fast, it will happen.
There is a mountain of evidence against them and they can’t stand forever. The Watchtower can’t hold back the avalanche of Youtube videos coming out. The Governing Body has to come clean or get out of business.
Please don’t let them destroy you. There’s many people out here who know what you are going through and we know how it feels. Your life is just too precious. The pain your suicide would cause to your loved ones is too great for them to handle. I know because my father committed suicide in 1996 and it has been the worst pain I can think of.
If your family is shunning you, it’s because they have been brainwashed into thinking it’s going to save your life at Armageddon. They aren’t doing it for any other reason. The Society has brainwashed them into thinking it’s the “loving” thing to do. The Society is responsible for this pain. Don’t let them do it to you. You are better than they are. Don’t let them win.
@Man. Years ago I ‘wanted to end it all’. Found out that I have depression and got treatment for it. Now, years later, I am so glad I didn’t act on the want.
A very good friend of mine told me in that time of my life, “There’s always another page to turn to.”
Please get the help you need because no matter how bad it gets, there is always another page in life to turn to!!!
thanks im ok just messed up :(
Glad you’re ok! I know the feelings of conflict from finding out you’ve been lied to for years.
There are some excellent resources online nowadays for finding support and friendship from others who have either been through this predicament, or are facing it at the same time as you.
I would strongly recommend setting up a fake account on Facebook and joining one of the Ex-JW groups on there. The group on the following link has nearly 6,000 members and is extremely well moderated… https://www.facebook.com/groups/xjwrg3/
anonymous,
We shall agree to differ, dear Lady. Your feelings are no more or less right or real than mine. I certainly agree that all those in positions of authority in the WTBTS are some of the worst human beings alive.
I am suffering from Bible Burnout. As an atheist, I shouldn’t have to be writing to Christians and telling them to follow all of the teachings of Christ. I don’t believe he is the Christ for goodness sake.
Your anger is justifiable, anonymous. But if you are a Christian, you need to love your enemies, and pray for those persecuting you. It’s right there in Luke 6. I’m NOT a Christian, so I don’t have to do this. I just think that hating someone or something so much that death is not enough of a punishment is not healthy. It will consume you if you let it.
I had to comment on Jerry Jones’ video where he said that Jehovah’s Witnesses will die at Armageddon!! What? I do not think that anyone should die at Armageddon. no one.
If my fellow posters want to be religious or Christian or whatever then that’s great! Have a great life! Live and let live.
But please, if you are going to be religious then keep to what you are told to do. That’s what it’s all about, isn’t it?
The last part is for every religious poster, not just dear anonymous.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Hi Excelsior. I don’t claim to be a Christian either. I am not either for the Bible or against it. I have always thought that there are a lot of good sayings in there though but I do believe in the death penalty and will never apologize for that feeling. When an adult person willingly takes the life of another person without any cause at all, then I feel that that person deserves death. If they rape a child, then I also feel they deserve death. If the Society, willingly covers over the crimes of adult men when they rape children, then I also feels that deserves the death penalty. That may sound harsh but if it was my child that it happened to, I’d want to take a gun and kill that person. I am putting myself in the place of those parents that that did happen to in our religion when the Society ordered the cover-up of all those crimes. If a person did believe in the Bible, then I would think a loving and just God would feel the same way about such men.
When it comes to blood transfusion, the reason I feel the Governing Body are deserving of death is that they claim to be speaking for God, when they willingly force all Jehovah’s Witnesses to refuse blood transfusions for themselves and even children, when that may be the only way that that person or child will stay alive and if they do take blood, force them to be shunned if they take the blood to save their life or their child’s life. According to the elder’s secret book, a person who did take blood for themselves or their child, can get their way out of that shunning, if they acquiesce by pretending to the elders that they were “sorry” that they “sinned” and took the blood out of spiritual weakness. The elders aren’t going to be giving that advice from the platform anytime soon, are they? So, that person will face dying or shunning and no other alternative. How can a group of men be so cunning and deceitful and full of hubris? According to the dictionary, that kind of pride will result in retribution. That is where I am at.
They gave themselves that authority and will not admit the truth. I can’t imagine putting myself in that kind of authority over others, making the decision of whether they live or die, based upon my only “human” interpretation of the Bible. Can they even prove the Bible is perfect when the original manuscripts were long lost, thousands of years ago? Do they even study the history of the Bible and where all the interpretations come from? Most people that study the Bible, see that most of the “stories” in the Bible were around, long before the Bible was even claimed to be written. I don’t have any “faith” in the Bible being perfect at all. I don’t even pray anymore. The Watchtower did a great job of not only destroying my faith in the Bible but also in God.
But I am not here, trying to cut down anybody’s faith in the Bible. Like I said, I think there are a lot of good things about the Bible. But, believing that every word (imperfect men’s interpretation) of the Bible is “inspired” of God, is not one of my beliefs.
But when a bunch of men willfully make rules about their very imperfect and “human” interpretation of the Bible that they came up with to prove their doctrines, that the rest of over 7 million people have to follow, right down to dying or letting their own child die, or else be shunned for not following these imperfect and very human laws and claim those imperfect laws came from God, and yet declaring themselves free of blood guilt because they say they aren’t inspired but only God directed, then that’s where I draw the line. No group of men can claim to be speaking for God in this day and age, unless they are megalomaniacs, with the power to kill at whim. They have the audacity to make the claim that they aren’t a “cult” by printing about cults that a cult is made up of people who follow “one” person who claims to speak from God, so they aren’t a cult because they are “seven” not one?????
These people are no different than Jim Jones who forced over 800 people to take poison and if they didn’t take the poison, were shot to death. That man was crazy and so are the Governing Body. There is no humility in them and that is one place where I agree with the Bible, in that if there was a God and if the Bible was true, God would hate them for their lack of humility and according to the Bible’s rules, it’s a life for a life. That is why I don’t think that just dying is good enough for them since they took many lives, not just one life for one life. They are responsible for thousands of deaths and I do believe if there is a God, that he will hold them accountable for all those lost lives and the deception over them to hold them in this prison called the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, not just because of their wanton disregard for human life but because they are claiming to do it in the name of the God of the Bible. But when you think of the God of the Hebrew Bible and his personality, they fit his personality perfectly.
I will never apologize for my feelings and it doesn’t damage me. It makes me more determined than ever to come up with the best words I can think of to expose the real side of the Governing Body for what they really are. If we are kind and “forgiving” of them, then they will continue in their practice of using the Scriptures for their own advantage. I think I am speaking for a lot of people who have been burned by the Organization and I see nothing wrong with being able to express those feelings. Being able to express those feelings, is what makes us able to deal with it. Like the man above who is even contemplating suicide, all of us (unless we are living in the Watchtower bubble of never never land) who have come awake from our Watchtower stupor are able to express our feelings on Cedar’s website here and it’s a healthy way of getting it out of our system, at least for me it is. I don’t think anybody should be made to “stifle” it.
I really think the Governing Body get a lot of hate mail or else why do they seem to think they need “body guards”????????
and to add to my last comment…
If Jesus supposedly chose the Watchtower as his one and only true spokesman to men in 1919 and the Governing Body feel that they are Jehovah’s “spokesman” to the world of mankind, they must think that they have been appointed over the whole world of mankind as their judge, jury and government. How crazy is that?????
The thing is, though, the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only group of people naive’ (or stupid) enough to believe it and follow their insane rules, thus giving these seven men the feeling that they really are speaking for God. It’s the rest of us who gave them them that power high that they are riding on.
We thought that there must be “truth” in it when there are so many sitting around us, drinking it all in, like it’s really from God. How could so many people be wrong???? That is the feeling we got just because there are so many people believing in that garbage. How could so many people be so wrong? That is why so many people are sticking with it. Once the numbers start dropping, maybe then, people might start to wake up. But as long as the Society can get those 8 and 9 year old children to get baptized, the numbers will still look good, won’t they? Oh but wait….Wasn’t that what we have all been told too, that the “greater number will cool off?” They have an answer to everything. That is what we are up against.
I think the answer is to try and find what little enjoyment we can out of life now, even if it means we lose all our “fake” friends at the Hall. If we have any family and friends left who aren’t in the “truth”, hopefully they will help us through. Those “fake” friends were never our friends anyway, so it’s not really a loss. I’d rather have real friends.
anonymous,
So you are not a Christian, thank you for clearing that up. Your views on the death penalty are your own and I am not going to try to change your mind. I respect your views.
I shall merely say this. The death penalty has no effect on crime statistics. It has never been a deterrent. In your country, the USA, certain States have the death penalty. Those prisoners live on Death Row sometimes for decades, being fed and watered the same as other prisoners. Eventually, they are put to death, not straight away. There have been many cases of people being executed and then it being discovered that they are innocent of the crime. Not many, but they do exist. What do we do as a society then?
I am totally with you as to the ends (justice for child abuse victims, domestic abuse victims, shunning victims) but I am totally against the execution of anyone. It doesn’t work as a deterrent, and it is an irreversible decision.
I have stated before that your fury is justified. I just don’t see that your solution to our problems is the right one.
My philosophy has no place for the killing of fellow human beings unless it is the only way to defend oneself or ones society. That is what I believe.
I will leave you with this question to ponder.
What would an awakening JW feel when reading your post about executing the Governing Body? Would it help them to leave the WTBTS, or would your viewpoint (understandable as it is) lead them to go back to the very men you quite rightly hate?
I am not an apologist for the WTBTS. I want the leaders to stand trial and spend the rest of their lives in prison. That is what they deserve for all the terrible crimes they have committed.
We shall agree to disagree as always, dear anonymous. I respect you as a kind, feeling human being who has taken time to write on this site and share your insights and views on the WTBTS. You have righteous anger and I feel that too, believe me.
That we disagree on the way that the leaders of the WTBTS should be punished does not mean that we cannot work together to bring justice for the many victims of this cruel cult, including you and I.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Hi Excelsior. I did not say I wasn’t a Christian. I think the Christian principles are very good and I try and live up to those principles. I don’t necessarily believe that a perfect God fits the description given in the Hebrew scriptures. It isn’t to say that I don’t believe in a creator. I am up in the air over the whole thing now. It isn’t that I believe in God or evolution. I am completely neutral over it.
I would never give anybody the impression that they Governing Body should be executed by anybody except God (if you believe in God). Once a person knows what the perfect will of God is and then sins deliberately, that person is deserving of death (according to Watchtower teachings) and Christ’s ransom sacrifice doesn’t cover over those sins. That is why, once a person gets baptized, they are held to a much higher standard. Only God can determine that kind of sin but that is the excuse the Governing Body uses to “execute” us apostates at Armageddon.
So, do the Governing Body sin deliberately by taking the “authority” over all of us when they can’t prove that they were appointed by God? Do they do it, actually thinking they were appointed by God? If so, I’d say they come under the category of mentally unstable and so maybe God would over look their sin if that is the case. In the end, it is up to God to determine whether or not they are deserving of death over the fact that they made life and death decisions for millions of people, with no proof at all that God actually appointed them over us. I hope for their sakes, that they really do think they speak for God. If not, there’s a higher accounting for them. I learned that from the Watchtower too.
I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression to non believers when they turn to Cedar’s web site. If Cedars thinks I should button it up, I certainly will.
I’m sorry for the off topic , but I need to know. My jw spouse totally didn’t care when America was attacked. I think the next day it might have sunk in a little more and had a little more normal reaction. Did other JWs react llike this ? I thought maybe the teaching about how everyone is gong to die in armegeddon or how they aren’t supposed to care about our nation had something to do with it.
I was curious about how JWs would react to that tragedy, and I checked out a JW-only forum (long since shut down at the behest of “Mother”) and I was truly horrified at some of the responses that were given.
One “brother” stated, “If they think THIS is bad, just wait until things REALLY get started.” He was referring, I’m sure, to the fact that he believed that this was the start of Armageddon.
Several others posted about how “thrilled” and “excited” they were because they, too, believed that the attacks heralded the start of Armageddon and their imminent entry into paradise.
Their excited, but definitely callous, remarks continued unabated for a couple of days, until one JW poster stated that she had received an email from an ex-JW reminding her that thousands of innocent people had died and that the JWs excitement over the tragedy was horrendous.
Only then, because an EX-JW had reminded them, did they stop to think about the horrific event in more human terms.
I never forgot those disgusting initial posts, though.
Hi Married to a JW. It was 13 years ago today. I remember it well, wondering if it was the “start” of Armageddon. After a few hours, I figured it out that it wasn’t but that was my first thought.