“The carnage will be earthwide” – new Watchtower describes fate of unbelievers

The latest Watchtower evokes images from Hitchcock's thriller "The Birds" in describing Armageddon
The latest Watchtower evokes scenes from Hitchcock’s thriller “The Birds” in describing Armageddon

The latest February 15th Study Edition of the Watchtower is now available for download on JW.org – but one gruesome paragraph in particular will stand out for thinking Witnesses.

In the study article entitled “Hail Christ, the Glorious King!” one of the concluding paragraphs paints a grim picture of global carnage at Armageddon. Jeremiah 25:33 is invoked to remind Witnesses that those killed at Armageddon will be “from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth.”

And in wording reminiscent of Alfred Hitchcock’s 1963 film “The Birds,” Watchtower applies the prophecy at Revelation 19:17,18 to describe the ultimate fate of any who ignore their teachings… (bold is mine)

“In poetic language, the psalmist prophesies that the King’s ‘arrows are sharp, piercing the hearts of his enemies’ and ‘making peoples fall before him.’ The carnage will be earth wide. Jeremiah’s prophecy foretells: “Those slain by Jehovah in that day will be from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth.” (Jer. 25:33) A parallel prophecy states: “I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: ‘Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.’”—Rev. 19:17, 18.” (w14 2/15 p.7)

As though the use of the scripture in Revelation isn’t graphic and disturbing enough, with birds being summoned to “cleanse” the earth of the corpses of those slain, the warning is supported by a chilling illustration on the same page.

birds-of-armageddonThe message is simple. All must heed the Governing Body‘s self-proclaimed authority, or else expect to end up as bird food when Armageddon strikes.

Sadly this is not the first time the leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses have resorted to fear-mongering to keep adherents in check. Those like myself who have grown up in the organization will recall countless images in Watchtower publications depicting the death of unbelievers at Armageddon.

And in one of his talks, Governing Body member Anthony Morris III drew from his Vietnam experience to give a morbid foregleam of a slain one as being “like a hot dog on a grill, blackened and splitting open.”

Those who choose to cling to such dreadful rhetoric as stated above need to ask themselves three questions: (1) “If there really is so much at stake, isn’t it worthwhile subjecting my beliefs to a rigorous test to make sure they really do add up?” (2) “Is this really a religion of love if its leaders need to threaten people in this way?” and (3) “Would Jehovah really kill all who aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses when Armageddon strikes, even though these number into the billions, with a third of the world’s population in many Asian and Muslim countries never even having heard our message?”

 

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115 thoughts on ““The carnage will be earthwide” – new Watchtower describes fate of unbelievers

  • November 19, 2013 at 6:16 pm
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    hi Sue! I will add this: Ignorance, indoctrination and mind control produce fanatics. Wilhelm is just a blind fanatic of the watchtowwer, the religious version of communism.

  • November 19, 2013 at 6:20 pm
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    Excelsior, formerly known as George, that passage you’re thinking about is Ezekiel 18:1-20.

    “It is fundamentally unfair to single out individuals who, through sheer chance, happen to be born and be alive at the time of the end.”

    You’re so right about this! According to JW theology, a wicked man can die pre-armageddon at a ripe old age in his sleep and not ever be called to account for his deeds since he would never be resurrected. But another equally wicked man who happens to live until armageddon has to face a vicious, traumatic death. The former wicked man is let off the hook in a manner not unlike the way Enoch was divinely euthanized, while the latter has to be torn from the earth. Where’s the consistency? Where’s the impartial justice?

    JW theology is so twisted!

  • November 19, 2013 at 10:51 pm
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    Good analogy, with the Hitchcock movie. I will be taking a close look at this publication.

  • November 20, 2013 at 12:47 am
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    “There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God’s Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation.” Watchtower 1993 Oct 1 p.19

    “Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19

    “Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12

    “If we stop actively supporting Jehovah’s work, then we start following Satan. There is no middle ground.” Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.18

    “But Jehovah’s servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things.” Watchtower 2007 Dec 15 p.14

    “What will happen to young children at Armageddon? The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges. However, the Bible does show that God views the young children of true Christians as “holy.” (1 Cor. 7:14) It also reveals that in times past when God destroyed the wicked he likewise destroyed their little ones.” Reasoning from the Scriptures pp.47-48

    These are just a few Wilhelm, they are things published by the watchtower within my lifetime and that I myself have used, if you want to turn a blind eye to the facts, to truth about the truth, to the lies we have been taught by the organization that have no valid biblical supporting reference, to the harmful practices of the organization then that is your problem not ours we don’t care if you want to continue being a JW I mean some of us still are but in Name only because we have a mind of our own and are aware of what is truly going on and will not let this religion hurt us anymore. I started like you, defending the JW’s eventually I faded because i realized that though some of the stuff some in the exJW community say is absolute baloney or just seems so bitter and angry, I too could not deny the facts that I had my doubts and agreed with them on many points. All we do is state facts, it is up to you to decide what you will do with your life as for us we are happy where we are at and what we write is therapy for us and to raise awareness. We are not anti JW, we are here to help those who want it and need it.

    CM

  • November 20, 2013 at 3:44 am
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    Martin, all I can say is wow! What a profound and thought-provoking article. Thank you for sharing it.

  • November 20, 2013 at 4:48 am
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    I am going to report the article in the watchtower study Feb 15th article( w14 02/15-E Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania) to my government on the grounds that i am classified as a shunned member of this cult and this is a direct threat to me. It is inciting serious contempt toward me and those that have no idea this is what this crazy cult preaches.

    Main article: Anti-Discrimination Act 1977

    In 1989, by an amendment to the Anti-Discrimination Act 1977, New South Wales became the first state to make it unlawful for a person, by a public act, to incite hatred towards, serious contempt for, or severe ridicule of a person or group on the grounds of race. The amendment also created a criminal offence for inciting hatred, contempt or severe ridicule towards a person or group on the grounds of race by threatening physical harm (towards people or their property) or inciting others to threaten such harm. Prosecution of the offence of serious vilification requires consent from the Department of Attorney General and Justice and carries a maximum penalty of a $10,000 fine or 6 months imprisonment for an individual—$100,000 for a corporation. An offence has not yet been prosecuted under this law.[3]

  • November 20, 2013 at 4:58 am
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    it also includes hate speech toward individuals regardless of race :
    Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001
    A person must not, on the ground of the religious belief or activity of another person or class of persons, engage in conduct that incites hatred against, serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule of, that other person or class of persons.
    Note: “engage in conduct” includes use of the internet or e-mail to publish or transmit statements or other material

  • November 20, 2013 at 5:43 am
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    Martin said…
    “I didn’t get satisfactory answers from anyone just the advice to have faith that God knew what he was doing. I didn’t buy it then and I do not buy it now.”

    Yeah I resonate with that prov 3:5,6 Si annoying and unsatisfying. Then in the BTeach book, Ch1 always ask questions until you find satisfying answers.

    Cedars, This is a lunacy, you are doing well. Keep it up
    70wks…

  • November 20, 2013 at 6:35 am
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    Hi John, I wouldn’t ban Wilhelm, he does a great job of illustrating the poisonous mindset within the WT. Loads of my friends used to take the view that they were inoffensive and well mannered, they are shocked by these outbursts and are changing their opinion.

    • November 20, 2013 at 6:57 am
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      Thanks Dave. I’m just keeping an eye on him for now, because it seems obvious he’s confused and doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. I will, however, need to take action regardless if he continues to be insulting.

  • November 20, 2013 at 8:18 am
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    Excelsior, actually what I found really interesting was some particular details about different phases of the creation. They were indeed quite specific in their details as well as the order in which they were described. Eventually, like you said, beyond theories, we don’t know much and maybe, we’re also influenced by our convictions to interpret the scientific data.

    What you mentioned about the human efforts is also interesting. I think indeed, many exceptional people influenced masses and brought very positive ideas. However, it seems to me like the current difficulties, violence, and anything “bad” is the result of a “system” rather than a group of individuals. My personal impression is that there should be a superior force to us, in order to bring the real peace and justice. For instance, if someone murders a person, killing him would only generate an impression of justice but no real justice. The real justice would be giving back the life to the murdered one, in a hypothetical situation. Without this, it would only be a lose-lose situation. Also, this would require humans to impose rules, and that looks like a kindergarten, where some of the kids would assume governance of the whole, rather than trusting things to the qualified personel.

    It’s just an opinion of course, I see that there are very honest efforts towards what you described, but I believe that we’re all limited by our weaknesses. Someone better than us would be needed. That’s just my opinion of course.

    Peace

  • November 20, 2013 at 9:50 am
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    [off-topic comment removed]

  • November 20, 2013 at 10:55 am
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    I agree with you, I was like him once, commenting on videos and on many exJW websites, thinking I had an answer for everything, eventually i found out I had doubts too, a 3rd generation JW, I have now faded and am much happier now, i think many of those trolling will also come to find out that the reason they are reading “apostate” information is because they too are starting to think for themselves.

    CM

  • November 20, 2013 at 12:12 pm
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    Thanks, JB. I appreciate an open and honest discussion, it’s such a treat to read comments that are genuinely trying to move a discussion along.

    Your value system is based on two assumptions:

    1. There is a superior force out there somewhere

    2. We are somehow immature, and incapable of ruling ourselves.

    What if there isn’t a superior force out there? Let’s face it, there is no evidence yet of life of any kind existing elsewhere. I think we will find that life is actually common but it’s only a hunch. Even so, there is no evidence of angels or demons or any such personage.

    Are we really children? Should we expect a grown up to come and solve our problems? As far as we can tell, we are on our own in that regard. I would argue that human beings wrote the bible, and it’s amazing that a Bronze Age people could come up with a moral code that had the basics intact. However, most peoples who settled in one place eventually came up with property rights, and some kind of justice system. The Jewish laws are not completely different from the peoples who lived around them.

    This is why I encourage everyone to think about how they will live a moral, meaningful life now. There is no proof for the bible’s message, so we have a choice.

    We can decide to follow the spirit of those biblical laws, and, when necessary, have the courage to reach beyond them. To say no to discrimination and reach out to our fellow humans.

    It is not easy! It’s taken humanity a long struggle to achieve our tolerant society. We can all help praise the spirit of Jesus’ teachings by trying to get along together with dignity and respect.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 20, 2013 at 3:09 pm
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    I am not sure why but I felt Wilhelm was a woman?

  • November 20, 2013 at 3:49 pm
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    Great article, but it left me with one question. Have these birds been breeding since 1878 when the ‘present system’ was going to end?

    And, more to the point, what will these birds be doing when 2014 and 2034 go by without any opportunity to take out a few apostates?

  • November 20, 2013 at 5:02 pm
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    The only thing they care about is their own vindication. They look forward to billions dying so they can stand over them and say “Ha ha, told you so!” Loving religion, my fat arse. If I tried to warn a neighbor about a faulty railing on the stairs and he ignored me, I wouldn’t crow about how right I am to anyone and everyone that listens. If he fell to his death I would be sick to my stomach, not happy to shake my fist at his corpse. They are one of the most self-involved, self-righteous bunch of people I’ve ever had the displeasure of knowing.

    • November 20, 2013 at 5:41 pm
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      Whatevs: I can see your point, and I agree that JW’s do come across as self-righteous, and have a “holier than thou” attitude, when it comes to many things. However, I don’t think it is fair or kind to assume they will all be gleeful over watching their loved ones destroyed. I would expect that many, if not most, of the JW’s whose family members are slaughtered, will feel the worst kind of mourning over our death.
      (At least for a little while. The article does state that it will take awhile for earth to be restored to perfection.)
      Being on the receiving end of some unfair treatment right now, I have to remind myself to forgive them. I am no better, when I judge them and convict them of something they have not yet done.

  • November 20, 2013 at 5:07 pm
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    @thinkinghard

    I am glad you found it beneficial. I am a huge fan of the works of R G Ingersoll. He was a very popular orator in the nineteenth century and his thinking was way ahead of his time. I believe the complete works of Ingersoll are also available at Gutenberg.net and are very rewarding reading.

    Pertinent to this article, his essay “What must we do to be saved” is also in my opinion a work of profound genius.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38801/38801-h/38801-h.htm#link0014

    Regards

    Martin

  • November 20, 2013 at 5:54 pm
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    Faithful, I would agree with you except that from my 35+ years of experience “in,” I would say the vast majority of JWs I met were waiting for Armageddon for their own vindication and nothing else. They seriously could not wait for people to die so they could be proven “right.” It had nothing to do with Jehovah’s vindication or wickedness, but was really personal. One example, a woman had a problem with the divorce paperwork with her ex-husband, and thought something was unfair. “Oh well he’s going to die at Armageddon anyway.” I remember hearing that repeated by so many. Problem with the boss, with a neighbor; “They’re going to die at Armageddon.” Someone slams a door in your face in service? “Well we know who’s going to die at Armageddon.” Some even said it with a smile. Sick.

  • November 20, 2013 at 5:56 pm
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    *Footnote … maybe others had different experiences or grew up with nicer Witnesses than I did, but I just ran into that attitude so often, it’s really sickening to look back on it and then hear it repeated from the WT. I think the only ones I knew who didn’t relish the whole Armageddon thing were those who had family who left or were DF’d. So odd to look at things from both sides now.

    • November 20, 2013 at 6:46 pm
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      You know what? You are probably right, judging from your descriptions. I definitely have not had even a sample of the true hurt that this organization can cause. I was never a member, so never got to hear those comments actually come out of someone’s mouth.

      It is shocking and sad, to hear the things people will say, just to try to make themselves feel justified and privileged. Their preaching work is fruitless, and they really have so few ways to vent their frustrations. Comforting yourself, by judging others, is a natural human behavior. It is appalling what this organization does to people’s minds, let alone their families.

      They are planning and anticipating devastation, and loving it. The more I think about your comment, the more I realize how true it probably is. I am trying hard not to believe my family feels that way, but that isn’t really for me to worry about.

  • November 20, 2013 at 6:15 pm
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    Wilhelm – Many people try to live their lives in a ‘christian’ way, JW’s are not the only people trying to live up to ‘God’s Standards’. Only JW’s think they are as “good” as they profess to be. People in the real world aren’t sucked in by what JW’s say about themselves.
    I for one share the thoughts of others and do not care for ‘God’, he seems really mean and petty, goes round the long way just to prove a point and makes a lot of people suffer along the way.

  • November 20, 2013 at 8:15 pm
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    Someone is missing the point of Christianty.

    • November 21, 2013 at 1:19 pm
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      Rob: If you are referring to me, “missing the point of Christianity,” I’m sorry if send a confusing message. I am not defending Christianity, or any other “religion.” I listened to the JW point of view for quite some time, and freely admit that I am still in recovery from their false teachings.

      Please, enlighten me. (If you click on “reply” inside your email, it seems to work. You need to select the notifications for updates to this thread, or else you just add your comment to the list of comments on this blog).

  • November 21, 2013 at 4:17 am
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    Martin, I couldn’t wait to read the next article at the link you provided. Gone was all thought of work, eat, sleep. I am on page 33 but just took a quick break to thank you once again. Cedars article highlights the fear that the GB have drilled into us. No-one wants to be devoured by greedy birds and to this day I’m apprehensive of birds flapping around me partly because this scripture was read to me as a child in preparation of a study, probably a watchtower study, and I’ve never forgotten it. Once again, children will be viewing this “Watchtower” article and so the fear for them begins…so sad and so very, very wrong. I’m not able to express myself as eloquently as some of the persons who comment on Cedars articles and for that I apologize but I can say thank you to those of you who do and to those, like Martin, who gently point the way to mental freedom.

  • November 21, 2013 at 5:15 am
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    Barbara: When we studied with the JW’s, the elder who was teaching us cornered my husband alone and said that very thing to him. “Either you make some ‘progress’ here, or you sentence your entire family to destruction.” That was pretty much the end of our examination of the JW’s as a choice for our family.

  • November 21, 2013 at 5:51 am
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    JB: I’d like to address your question about Matthew 7:13-14. That is an excellent question!
    I thought about this one a lot, especially when the JW’s brought it up during our bible study together. I have a couple of questions about that myself, as I am currently studying the book of Matthew.

    What evidence do the JW’s have, that theirs is the narrow path Jesus is talking about? (read surrounding verses for clues)

    After reading the entire chapter, a few things stand out to me. Taken in context, I do not find the Watchtower Society’s teachings and practices will qualify them to be defining that narrow road for their 8 million chosen people.

    v1-5: “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
    v12: “treat others as we expect to be treated.” (that includes people you don’t like, and that don’t agree with you)
    v15: “Watch out for false prophets that come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inside they are ravenous wolves.” (false predictions made by men who claim to speak for God)
    v16-20: “By their fruits you will recognize them.” (Look at their own yearbook for statistics).
    v24-27: “The wise man built his house upon a rock.”

    If you read the entire sermon on the mount, you will also see in Matthew 6, where he warns the people: “Do not practice your righteousness in front of men in order to be observed by them; otherwise you will have no reward with your father in the heavens.”

    How does this coincide with the JW requirement of turning in time cards each month, to get credit for the service hours performed? What if you don’t turn in a card, and tell them you will practice your righteousness in secret, as Jesus instructed? What will they say?

    I am not defending any particular religion, but do have serious questions about the claims the Watchtower Society makes about itself. Their narrow path could easily be leading off into destruction.

  • November 21, 2013 at 11:18 am
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    Are those pedophiles in the KH going to be bird food too? Will they be plucked from service as those who will be plucked from their jobs to face destruction and be bird food?

  • November 21, 2013 at 11:20 am
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    Just bought my turkey and ham. I had better fatten up before the birds eat me. Just think I’m eating a bird for Thanksgiving and soon them birds will be eating me-sweet revenge I guess!

  • November 21, 2013 at 11:33 am
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    I have many questions as well.
    1.) How could Jesus approve of the WT in 1919 when they were celebrating Christmas and other holidays, smoking and drinking?
    2.) Why was Ester allowed to create a holiday called Purim(which is still celebrated today) and Jehovah allowed it?
    3.) How is it that pedophiles are allowed in the organization even being “appointed by Holy Spirit” to certain positions, while practicing pedophilia?
    4.) How is it that Jehovah’s Holy Spirit is upon an organization that has falsely predicted Armageddon and put dates on the time of the end when the Bible clearly states that neither the son nor the Angels know but only the Father?
    5.) How can “truth” come out of a lie by falsely predicting the end of the world through the practice of pyrimidology?
    6.) How can truth come from a Kook like Russel who called himself the 7th Angel of Laodicia? Who said the scriptures predicted that he and his wife would separate? Who compromised his faith?

    Does Jehovah’s Holy Spirit make mistakes?
    I have a ton of questions that must be answered before I am eaten by the birds on that fateful day!

  • November 21, 2013 at 11:43 am
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    Did Noah bring termites on the Ark?

    • November 21, 2013 at 12:55 pm
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      Termites on the ark? Good question!

      Ask a JW. I’m sure the reply will be, “I will have to research that question and get back to you!” Hahaha.

  • November 21, 2013 at 11:50 am
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    Hi Excelsior,

    Many thanks, I also enjoy exhanging thoughts and understanding different points of view. I’m really happy to see that some lingering questions are being asked by others too !

    Yes, the concept about God is simply outside of our physical abilities to comprehend. Thinking about this, I believe I simply chose to believe it (maybe because I was born as a JW as well). Of course, I think there are many things seems to support this, but I think it’s quite influenced by my “starting point”, and I also find your questions about the origin of the Bible very relevant and actually such questions occur to me as well. Like, what about the far-eastern beliefs or any other civilization, their beliefs and traditions, philosophy and moral approach which is essentially not too different.

    The impression I often get is, best I can do is just to keep looking for answers. I think for some, my lifetime won’t allow me find any, and for others maybe the light will get brighter (not to be confused with the “new light” :-)).

    Cheers

  • November 21, 2013 at 11:55 am
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    Hi Cedars,

    Something just occurred to me from my study with JWs and time attending meetings. They have redefined the term “fear”.

    True definiton: Fear is an emotion induced by a perceived threat which causes entities to quickly pull far away from it and usually hide. It is a basic survival mechanism occurring in response to a specific stimulus, such as pain or the threat of danger.

    JW definition: In Biblical usage the fear of God is a positive concept. (Isaiah 11:3) It is a profound reverence and deep respect for God, a strong desire not to displease him. (Psalm 115:11) It includes acceptance of and strict adherence to God’s moral standards and a desire to live by what God says is right or wrong. One reference work points out that such a wholesome fear expresses “a fundamental attitude toward God that leads to wise behavior and the avoidance of every form of evil.” Appropriately, God’s Word tells us: “The fear of Jehovah is the start of wisdom.”—Proverbs 9:10.

    I’m sure other Christian denominations share this definition, but I thought it was noteworthy to include in the discussion, considering the fear mongering tone of many of their publications and teaching methods.

    http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2006565

  • November 21, 2013 at 1:34 pm
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    Hi Faithful Witness,

    Yes, those points you mentioned and quite a few others I come across, raise serious questions about the WT organization’s approach and all the things I heard back in time about the “people who’ll be destroyed”. Let me also add Matthew 18:6 about “making one’s brother stumble” of which, I unfortunately came across a number of examples. Probably the elder who talked to your husband didn’t do much good about his enthousiasm to continue towards being more involved.

    I find the idea of being saved conditioned to being part of an organization quite disturbing. This brings so many questions that no one can really answer. And, what if there is another religion observing the same rules, which would make them an apostate only if they turned a page of Watchtower magazine ?

    To me, this scenario presents a lot of flaws. I of course wouldn’t like to judge anyone, but I have seen quite some Witnesses with whom I can’t really imagine feeling good, even in a perfect world (or maybe it’s me who’s really wrong :-)) In exchange, there are people who really care about others, they honestly try to live a decent life, and they aren’t Witnesses. What about them ? Some of them think they found their way, some of them are disappointed about religion and they don’t care, and some others just struggle finding their way around.

    I like sticking to Matthew 22:37-40. It makes me think, it gives the whole picture : Knowing our Creator and honoring Him, and living a decent life. I think there are many people that live a decent life, but the first commandment, knowing our Creator, and finding the truth, is a deep subject and a huge task. It takes a life doing this.

    I don’t want to exclude that being a JW as a way to reach this objective, but the “exclusivity” concept doesn’t seem possible to admit for a number of reasons, mainly because it doesn’t put everyone facing the same level of opportunities to progress, or even discover, the truth.

    To tell you honestly, I think we only have some guidelines, but anything concrete about how things would unfold seems like speculation to me. All I like to say is, whatever happens, considering that God is love, should happen the right way. This is what I’d like to believe.

  • November 21, 2013 at 3:08 pm
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    @thinkinghard

    I am so glad that you have found value in the cited texts.

    I usually keep a few copies lying around for occasions where door to door preachers offer to give me a bible study. I always agree on condition that they first read “What must we do to be saved” and then get back to me and explain where Ingersoll has got it so terribly wrong.

    A few take it with them but only one has ever returned, a young man who came back months later to tell me that he was shocked by the contents but he couldn’t deny the logic and the truth contained therein. We are still in touch and I am pleased to say that he is no longer trapped within this pernicious organization.

    If you have the time, I would very much be interested in what you think about it, when you have had time to finish and reflect upon Ingersoll’s thesis.

    Take care

    Martin

    PS Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason is a book that I am sure you will appreciate but it is a much longer read … although very entertaining as well as thought-provoking.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3743

    Good luck!

  • November 21, 2013 at 4:50 pm
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    I am connected to the organization through my family, as an observer I am always concerned about all the tragic events that are always occurring, But, have always noticed that “money” is always some where around. The big 1975 rip off of millions of dollars “remember” then on and on and on every occasion . The ‘Orgization” needs bucks to do Jehovahs works. I thinks this is a side show to keep the people from asking ,just where in the hell is all this money going. Yes billions, hedge funds,off shore accounts.. Change the subject no one cares if a bunch of low lifes that you wouldn’t invite to your house for dinner would get to heaven. Here is the thought of the day “ask the big “8” to account for all the money and share the info with the organization.Yes put all the info out in the public all the pedophile cases.Law suits in the works. Have open discussion with the congregation . Yes,yes and all the affinity crimes occurring in the “Organization”. Yes theres lots of that,where people come to pray with people they prey upon. Yes , lesson for the day put affinity crimes/Jehovah witness in your search bar and get ready for a schock. Remember is all a distraction .

  • November 21, 2013 at 10:13 pm
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    I remember a C.O. giving a talk about Sodom and Gomorrah. He talked about how the “fire” that rained down was loosely packed sulfur that would splatter upon impact. He made the comment that perfect aim wasn’t necessary, if the burning balls of sulfur just hit anywhere in the vicinity of the wicked men it would splatter and stick like napalm on anyone it hit. They would try to wipe it off and only smear it on their skin even more. I’m sure this wasn’t in his “outline” but it sure scared the hell outta me.

  • November 21, 2013 at 10:47 pm
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    deuteronomio 18..22……dont afraid…no mas temor

  • November 22, 2013 at 2:58 am
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    Thank you Martin. I will let you know – do you perhaps have an email address or another way I can reply other than on Cedars website?

  • November 22, 2013 at 7:57 pm
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    Bravo, JB! Your honest seeking for answers is the start of a fascinating journey.

    As a thinking JW, I would suggest starting plugging some of the gaps that the GB have made in your access to information.

    Wherever your journey takes you, I wish you all the best. Your comments have been a welcome change from the multitudinous apologists that spam this site.

    The main advantage you have is a sense of decency. Good old Jesus had it right when he said that we would know we were on the right path if the fruitage of what we do is good.

    Keep that compassion, JB. It is the cornerstone of a noble and honourable life.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 23, 2013 at 3:00 am
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    Thank you so much Excelsior, I also find the open and honest exchanges refreshing, it’s equally a great change for me too.

    All the best !

  • November 23, 2013 at 3:26 am
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    Hi Martin, I hope you’re still checking this thread, I wanted to ask a about the Ingersoll’s essay about the origins of Bible.

    Indeed, reading the old testament, very similar questions came up, which I kind of set aside because I didn’t know how to research further on them. There is indeed a trace of real savage people and the laws written in there made me think of some countries today, in the most conservative parts of the world, where people still get stoned because of adultery, etc.

    Some parts truly shocked me, like Numbers 22:20-22, to this day I couldn’t understand what this rhymes to and I think I’ll never understand. It almost says “God fooled Balaam” …

    But my question is more about the historical facts. The document mentions some events occuring way after the pretended author’s death, and some other historical and scientific inconsistencies. Did you come across more material on this that goes further in proving such historical facts and also information about which verses in Bible that provide scientifically inaccurate statements ? Ingersoll doesn’t seem providing such pointers. Or did Ingersoll do such a reasearch and published it ?

    As an additional comment that comes to my mind : Ingersoll briefly discusses about the efforts where the biblical canon was put together. I would add, it’s still something quite unclear to me. Why some books were added to the canon, by men judging they were inspired texts and some others (Book of Enoch, Maccabees, Baruch, etc etc) were excluded. What actually makes us believe that the “authorities” that decided to put together this biblical canon(s) – because there are several variations of them – were directed by God ? How should we consider the words in revelation that says nothing can be added or removed from the holy scriptures … Added or removed to what basis actually ?

    Like I mentioned earlier on this thread, some material I read are quite interesting about the parallels that were found between the Genesis first chapter and the big bang, and whatever happened after, as per the scientific theories. So maybe late 1800’s Ingersoll didn’t have access to such information. And it still doesn’t clear the question why it contradicted the second chapter …

    The whole topic is quite fascinating indeed :-)

  • November 23, 2013 at 7:52 am
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    Wilhelm!
    Perhaps you should read the last letter of two JW-brothers
    confronting the “Governing Body”

    [evangelical-related link removed, see posting guidelines]

    The Pharisees of the G.B are in for a big surprise.

    • November 23, 2013 at 10:39 am
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      I’m not interested to read anything because the Bible tell me not to follow people, and I don’t. If you want to follow people and if you want to play in you own vomit, GO ON. You are all pissed off for what people did but you don’t listen to YOUR GOD when he say don’t follow men.

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