“The carnage will be earthwide” – new Watchtower describes fate of unbelievers

The latest Watchtower evokes images from Hitchcock's thriller "The Birds" in describing Armageddon
The latest Watchtower evokes scenes from Hitchcock’s thriller “The Birds” in describing Armageddon

The latest February 15th Study Edition of the Watchtower is now available for download on JW.org – but one gruesome paragraph in particular will stand out for thinking Witnesses.

In the study article entitled “Hail Christ, the Glorious King!” one of the concluding paragraphs paints a grim picture of global carnage at Armageddon. Jeremiah 25:33 is invoked to remind Witnesses that those killed at Armageddon will be “from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth.”

And in wording reminiscent of Alfred Hitchcock’s 1963 film “The Birds,” Watchtower applies the prophecy at Revelation 19:17,18 to describe the ultimate fate of any who ignore their teachings… (bold is mine)

“In poetic language, the psalmist prophesies that the King’s ‘arrows are sharp, piercing the hearts of his enemies’ and ‘making peoples fall before him.’ The carnage will be earth wide. Jeremiah’s prophecy foretells: “Those slain by Jehovah in that day will be from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth.” (Jer. 25:33) A parallel prophecy states: “I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: ‘Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.’”—Rev. 19:17, 18.” (w14 2/15 p.7)

As though the use of the scripture in Revelation isn’t graphic and disturbing enough, with birds being summoned to “cleanse” the earth of the corpses of those slain, the warning is supported by a chilling illustration on the same page.

birds-of-armageddonThe message is simple. All must heed the Governing Body‘s self-proclaimed authority, or else expect to end up as bird food when Armageddon strikes.

Sadly this is not the first time the leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses have resorted to fear-mongering to keep adherents in check. Those like myself who have grown up in the organization will recall countless images in Watchtower publications depicting the death of unbelievers at Armageddon.

And in one of his talks, Governing Body member Anthony Morris III drew from his Vietnam experience to give a morbid foregleam of a slain one as being “like a hot dog on a grill, blackened and splitting open.”

Those who choose to cling to such dreadful rhetoric as stated above need to ask themselves three questions: (1) “If there really is so much at stake, isn’t it worthwhile subjecting my beliefs to a rigorous test to make sure they really do add up?” (2) “Is this really a religion of love if its leaders need to threaten people in this way?” and (3) “Would Jehovah really kill all who aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses when Armageddon strikes, even though these number into the billions, with a third of the world’s population in many Asian and Muslim countries never even having heard our message?”

 

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115 thoughts on ““The carnage will be earthwide” – new Watchtower describes fate of unbelievers

  • November 18, 2013 at 10:13 am
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    I remember being 6 years old and asking my then non-witness dad why he wanted to be bird food. Ah memories!

  • November 18, 2013 at 10:56 am
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    Yes, for those who are thinking. Just stop and think about how the Wt and GB lift themselves above the fray of those “other religious” who paint “Jehovah” as a ‘mean God’ who will burn and torture the wicked forever in Hell–never linking this to fear, but here it is again and again in Wt literature–from trains hurtling through gaping gap of a missing bridge, flames of heaven burning steeples and capital, legislative domes, to visions of Har-Mageddon (literally, the Mountain of Meggido, yet the battle is to be fought on the plains?), and now birds cleansing the earth of corpses littering the ground.

    For those who are exposed to evangelical Christian rhetoric, this vision is not new–other millenialist groups project the Rapture and a fear-inducing vision of those “left behind” and the chaos as faithful are plucked from their “day jobs” and trains and planes crash. Those aware of the First Awakening will evoke the image of “sinners in the hands of an angry God” from Jonathan Edwards.

    If you can’t create a sense of immediate urgency, the next best dollar-grab is to shock-the-heck out of believers and potential converts with “this is what my God will do to you, if you don’t join my belief system”.

  • November 18, 2013 at 11:03 am
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    “Saw” movies = torture porn.

    WT theology = apocalypse porn.

  • November 18, 2013 at 11:41 am
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    Words fail to convey my contempt for the GB. I am no longer a believer, but I dimly recall reading that Jesus died for everyone, not just a splinter group from the 7th day Adventists.

    It’s an utter disgrace to condemn billions of people to a horrific death.

    To put this in context replace Jehovah with any government and you have genocide and condemnation from the UN.

    Fear can only control through furious effort. Love brings people together.

    Will this feature in the public version of the watchtower? I very much doubt it!

    These people are sick. They have created the God they desire – a god of fear and death and sacrifice. A god that has no mercy and no compassion. This god is as far from Jesus’ God as it is possible to be.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 18, 2013 at 11:45 am
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    @JBob, you are exactly right!

    The only real difference between JW Armageddon and Hell is the waiting period, and the fact that Hell happens behind closed doors instead of out in the streets while the faithful ones frolic through the carnage.

  • November 18, 2013 at 11:53 am
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    Cedars, did you notice in the previous paragraph that the GB who have already died will aid Jesus and the angels to bump us all off?

    Just imagine that! Rutherford coming back to kick some backsides!

    These people are deluded and so very far from the spirit of Christ.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 18, 2013 at 12:50 pm
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    2 Peter 2:22 …. “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”
    This is a description of you people. The person that came to know the truth according to GOD’s word and then do the opposite will be removed from the face of GOD. People that did not have the opportunity to have a bible and did not have the opportunity to understand will not be judged in the manner Cedars descibed will be happening to people that is not a JW. Is it so difficult to understand or is it just that Satan blinded your ability to think in a logical way. Your reasoning is like those of idiotic kids.

    • November 18, 2013 at 12:57 pm
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      Wilhelm – before I ban you for hurling insults and being an obvious troll, could you answer a simple question?

      You say…
      “People that did not have the opportunity to have a bible and did not have the opportunity to understand will not be judged in the manner Cedars descibed will be happening to people that is not a JW.”

      Where does it say in the literature that people in countries where the Bible is not common will be spared destruction at Armageddon? Have you come up with this “new light” yourself? I suspect so. In which case, welcome to the apostate club.

      • November 20, 2013 at 8:08 pm
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        I am willing to answer that. 2 part answer.

  • November 18, 2013 at 1:04 pm
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    Wilhelm,
    Are you serious? The only person spouting bile, is you. What you have said is not loving, kind or realistic. One day maybe, you will get help and then be able to forgive yourself for the ridiculous statements you have just made. I forgive you already because, ignorance, indoctrination and mind control, must be very difficult to overcome and you are clearly not ready to start healing the abuse to which you have been subjected.

  • November 18, 2013 at 1:46 pm
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    will JW`s have to realise what gives then any
    status over others just because they read something out of a magazine produced by a corporation
    in Brooklyn well I think that they r misled by self righteous self appointed men

  • November 18, 2013 at 1:52 pm
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    Google Translate:
    Good approach to the matter, brother Cedar . Already here in Brazil have an experience that I heard in the Assembly Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses yesterday, Sunday, November 9, 2013 . There was a reported experience from the stage where a brother with a very heavy conscience reported something like this:

    “I was alone at work and brother , in this situation , I accessed the internet . Did it in , just entering and viewing pornography .”

    This brother then appealed to the elders ( in these cases , and mistakenly turn distortedly the Letter of James that says to ‘ seek the elders when we’re sick ‘ but that the Corps Rulers who want to punish sinners , distorted and covertly use this text to make the ‘ spiritual ill ‘ , as they call it , to go pay bills with your congregation elder ) . The elders then , when considering the matter , realized that ‘ there was a standard ‘ that took his brother to sin , seeing pornography . What was the ” standard” ? The old man said :

    “Brother , his sin was made precisely because his brother was accessing the internet alone.”

    Thus, the ‘sick’ brother was convinced and determined to ” never access the internet alone

    “Boa abordagem da matéria, irmão Cedar. Já daqui do Brasil tenho uma experiência que ouvi no Salão de Assembleia das Testemunhas de Jeová ontem, domingo, 09 de novembro de 2013. Houve uma experiência relatada desde o palco onde um irmão com a consciência muito pesada relatava algo assim:

    “Eu estava sozinho no trabalho irmão e, nesta situação, acessei a internet. no que fiz isso, acabei entrando e vendo a pornografia”.

    Esse irmão recorreu então aos anciãos (nesses casos recorrem equivocadamente e distorcidamente à Carta de Tiago que diz para ‘procurarmos os anciãos quando estivermos doentes’ mas que os do Corpo dos Governantes, que querem punir os pecadores, usam distorcida e camufladamente esse texto para fazer o ‘doente espiritual’, como eles chamam, a ir prestar contas com o seu ancião congregacional). Os anciãos então, ao verificarem o assunto, perceberam que ‘houve um padrão’ que levou o irmão a pecar, vendo a pornografia. Qual foi o “padrão”? O ancião disse:

    “Irmão, seu pecado se deu exatamente porque o irmão estava acessando a internet sozinho”.

    Com isso, o irmão ‘doente’ ficou convencido e determinado a “nunca mais acessar a internet sozinho”

    O que os irmãos aqui acham que o do Corpo dos Governantes estão realmente preocupado de os irmãos TJ’s ‘acessem sozinhos’? Será que estão preocupados que nós ‘acessemos a pornografia’ mesmo, ou é outros sites que eles não querem que as TJ’s vejam?

    Eu arrisco a dizer que a preocupação real deles é que os irmãos venham a acessar o site do irmão e o meu, por exemplo.

    O ‘alerta’, como disse o orador do discurso, ‘é claro: não acessem a internet sozinhos. Acessem quando estiverem em família’.

    Depois disso lembrei que um dos motivos de eles também terem instituído a “Noite de Adoração em Família” foi justamente para que ‘um membro da família vigiasse o outro e não pudessem chegar à verdade bíblica nas cessões de estudo’.

    Realmente, esses homens usam de espertezas e tramoias para nos enganar e nos manter seus jumentos espirituais.

    Ainda bem que nós estamos todos despertando para a realidade.

    Apóstolo TDS

  • November 18, 2013 at 2:59 pm
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    Google Translate
    Apostle TDS
    I speak some Portuguese because I learned from my mother. However, it is true that very interesting that organization to use these things against the parishioners. That’s why many who came of that religion.
    C M

    Apostolo TDS
    Eu falar um pouco de português porque eu aprendi de minha mãe. No entanto, se é verdade que muito interessante que a organização a utilizar essas coisas contra os paroquianos. É por isso que muitos que surgiram de que a religião.
    C M

  • November 18, 2013 at 3:18 pm
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    This just comes to show how unloving and ridiculous this religion is. And to that apologist Wilhelm, you know as well as most of us do, its preety much just JW’s who will pass through to the “New World” and those who never had a chance to “hear the message” who may pass and resurrect according to the WT teachings, think about all the people who don’t want to hear anything and their children. Even you can’t be so blind to see how wrong it is. Makes me remember something i use to tell people to convince them that there was no such thing as hell…”think about it, would a loving parent, whom is imperfect, place their own child’s hand on a burning stove? Then why would our loving heavenly father who is perfect?” Ask yourself “Will Jehovah truly kill all those people? Does it not say that he wans everyone to be ‘saved’?” Just give it some thought, you too will see how crazy the idea is, even with the thought of seing all these people be killed would be so awful to watch. Trust me you cannot deny what your heart tells you and what the facts are.

    C M

  • November 18, 2013 at 3:23 pm
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    This is really sick of the WT org to present pictures like this in their magazines. It is a wonder that someone doesn’t take them to court for exposing young children to images like this in pictures and words. Can’t imagine the nightmares it gives children. I know when I hear the word Armageddon I get sick to my stomach. I was enjoying a nondenominational church near me but have not been able to go back since the meeting where they were talking about sin and Armageddon. Thank you for this article to expose their lunacy. Bless you! :o)

  • November 18, 2013 at 4:15 pm
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    Well at least they are consistent in one thing.

    I remember being about eight years old and hearing the story of Noah and the flood for the first time at the Group. I thought then that it was the most appalling story that I had ever heard.

    What did all those poor animals and plants do to deserve to die in such misery? What about the children? Why were they all drowned (Despite being a strong swimmer, I still have a fear of drowning to this day)? What had they done to deserve such a miserable death?

    Had I known about the issue at the time, I might well have wondered how could it be right for Jehovah to abort so many unborn children when Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that abortion is sinful?

    Even if God wanted to rip it up and start again, why choose such a cruel and destructive method when supposedly God is good, kind and merciful? It didn’t make sense.

    I didn’t get satisfactory answers from anyone just the advice to have faith that God knew what he was doing. I didn’t buy it then and I do not buy it now.

    I recognize this lust for violent revenge and the chance above all for ‘the faithful’ to get the opportunity to deliver the mother-of-all “I told you so!” to the rest of humanity, like Wilhelm above, for what it is; human beings at their worst. There is nothing ‘Divine’ about schadenfreude.

    Jehovah, as described in the Bible, is the creation of bloodthirsty, ignorant, bigoted men desperately trying to make sense of the world around them.

    If there is really a God, it ain’t him. If it is him, you can keep him! I’d rather be bird food than support such a tyrannical regime.

  • November 18, 2013 at 6:37 pm
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    I recall being taught that all who weren’t JW’s would be ‘destroyed’ at Armageddon. Didn’t matter if they had heard the ‘good news’ or not. Once Armageddon started, you were either for Jehovah, or considered against him. How is that fair?? Even babies – dead!
    I have been told to my face that the birds will eat the tongue out of my head as I rot on the ground – fortunately I am no longer controlled by fear, and this did not scare me back to the boring meetings.
    I like this – “I dimly recall reading that Jesus died for everyone, not just a splinter group from the 7th day Adventists.” – I’ll have to remember it so I can remind my mum when she gets on her high horse.

  • November 18, 2013 at 7:59 pm
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    @Martin
    I could not have said it any better!
    The many things you reference here, are EXACTLY the same things I find so fascinating about this cult and their leaders.
    The entire thing is like a wonderfully cheap thriller. From the made up name of God, to the “We have God tied up by his big toe, and only we get to have him, and play with him”. All of it. It is decadently entertaining, bizarre, and blatantly ridiculous.
    That said, joining this forum, and reading some of the comments from the former jws, has given me a tiny little window view, of the bizarre world inside the walls of the watchtower, and the walls of the jw gathering halls.

  • November 18, 2013 at 9:10 pm
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    This is a common misconception that traveling overseers have been “gracious” enough to clarify.

    According to the organizations teachings, anyone not a JW or in the process of becoming a JW at the time of Armageddon will NOT survive, and will NOT be resurrected. Sorry Winhelm, but take a closer look at your literature. You are wrong.

    Wi

  • November 18, 2013 at 9:48 pm
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    Oh my, do I have to go through this again, living in a family where my wife is the only member, by golley more paxil, If I die who is going to clean her house and take care of her , please , this crap has been going on since 1969. How much more do we have to put up with. A question the members who are pedophiles and in good standing do they get to live.

  • November 18, 2013 at 11:02 pm
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    I remember vividly as a child my Dad telling me; “you’re going to lose your life at Armegedon son!” and that was over some trivial wrongdoing. I recall having sleepless nights as a child and worrying – but that aside it shows how the WT’s techniques have really worked on members and how they have even been past on from parents to children. JW’s are an elitist group and the Governing Body strongly influences their audience to believe that only JW’s will be blessed with life. In answer to that I often use the example of the evildoer who died alongside Jesus and ask – was he a baptised Witness when Jesus told him “you will be with me in paradise”? I’m an inactive Witness but thinking Witnesses including my wife don’t buy into what the WT say’s about who will survive God’s ‘cleansing’ and who will not. Was it not Jesus who said “do not judge” and yet it seems the WT has judged the fate of all the people on earth. Good article Cedars – thanks.

  • November 19, 2013 at 12:18 am
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    Someone mentioned that there must be laws against this language of hate. In the UK, its the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006.
    I wonder if this has ever been tested against those using inflammatory language against those who do not believe? Here is the Act. I have copied a few passages.
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/1/schedule
    There are various sections that could apply.
    A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred.

    In this Part “religious hatred” means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief.

    Offences by corporations

    (1)Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this Part and it is shown that the offence was committed with the consent or connivance of a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body, or a person purporting to act in any such capacity, he as well as the body corporate is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.

    Possession of inflammatory material

    (1)A person who has in his possession written material which is threatening, or a recording of visual images or sounds which are threatening, with a view to—
    (a)in the case of written material, its being displayed, published, distributed, or included in a programme service whether by himself or another, or
    (b)in the case of a recording, its being distributed, shown, played, or included in a programme service, whether by himself or another,is guilty of an offence if he intends religious hatred to be stirred up thereby.

    In the USA, there is similar legislation and also separate State legislation.
    http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/our-work/fighting-discrimination/hate-crime-report-card/hate-crime-report-card-the-united-states/

    I wonder if this is why they introduced a separate Watchtower, so they could control the membership and try to argue that this was part of a programme of beliefs? But if the membership quote from the GB or the Magazines and use the language of hate against non-believers and a group they like to call apostates, then is it an offence according to law?
    There are defences for those exposing the language of hate.

    Does anyone know if this has been tested anywhere?

    Also where children are being exposed to this language of hate and images of destruction, has it been tested as child abuse?

    Sorry this was long.

  • November 19, 2013 at 2:52 am
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    The JW message is virtually indistinguishable from the regular Christian doctrine. If anything it is more humane. At least at JW armageddon death is swift, whereas in ‘normal’ Christianity you are tormented and tortured for an eternity, so I fail to see really how all you people can having a go at the JW’s, as nutty as they are, for condemming us to death when over 60% of Americans believe we have worse in store anyway.

    • November 20, 2013 at 7:47 pm
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      Johnny Rotten: To the casual observer, the JW message appears as if it is “virtually indistinguishable” from the mainstream Christian message. However, when you actually look further into their doctrines and practices, they are actually pretty far from it.

      Examples include:
      – Followers believe that their Governing Body represents the exclusive channel to receive God’s message today. They call these 8 men the “Faithful and Discreet Slave.” They are instructed to obey and believe whatever belief, doctrinal change or edict that comes down from the Watchtower Society, through the channel of the Slave. Messages are sent DOWN the chain of command, and the rank and file JW has absolutely no power or say in any matters that affect the organization. The Organization makes all the decisions.
      – If you disobey or question anything that comes from the Society, you are reprimanded (at the least) or shunned (disfellowshipped). Your family is not allowed to speak to you, if you are disfellowshipped. From my understanding, you can be disfellowshipped, simply for disagreeing with any of their beliefs, even though they actually keep CHANGING their definition of “Truth.”
      – The followers of Jehovah’s Organization do not partake of communion, as Christ commanded. This is a big difference between JW’s and Christians. Only the anointed Christians are going to Heaven, so they are the only ones who eat the bread and drink the wine. That number is finite, exactly 144,000 people are going to Heaven. Those are the ones allowed to take part in the Lord’s Supper. The 7 million other sheep, simply pass the plate and reject Christ each year on the date of the “Memorial,” which is celebrated near Good Friday.
      – The JW belief that their door-to-door “preaching work” is essential for their salvation. They keep track of every hour, write their service hours on time cards and turn them in each month for credit with the organization. The Watchtower publishes an annual yearbook, showing the millions of hours they spend doing this work, and hold this up as proof that they are Jehovah’s chosen people.
      — No other church I have ever attended, told me to reject Christ during the communion service. They never asked me to calculate how much time I spend serving their organization. No one ever instructed me to serve a “slave,” giving that slave absolute power over my medical decisions, the information I am allowed to read, the questions I am allowed to ask, and which people are worthy of association.

      So while I actually kind of agree that slaughter and eternal and instant destruction would be a much more compassionate way to die, I wanted to point out that the JW’s actually have some pretty strong beliefs that do not concur with Christianity. They worship Jehovah and Jehovah’s name, to the point of idolatry. They deny that Jesus came here as “God with us.”

      I’m not even mentioning the trinity doctrine, or the death on the cross (or was it a tree). There are so many differences, and I keep finding more as I learn what the Bible actually says.

      I’m sure that any JW, who knows what their organization is actually teaching as “Truth,” would agree that they are not indistinguishable from other Christians. I tried to explain it, but it is so bizarre and confusing, that there really is no way to express JW doctrine, without sounding mentally unbalanced.

      The Watchtower is very powerful in the minds of JW’s, and they abuse this power daily.

  • November 19, 2013 at 3:03 am
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    JohnnyRotten
    Do two wrongs make a right? LOL

    I suppose there must be people who object to fundamental christian teachings and they have their own website and ways of exposing the stupidity.
    I for one am grateful, Cedars has created this site, as when I came out, it was not possible to publicly “out” the contradictions, as the internet did not exist.

  • November 19, 2013 at 3:23 am
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    Here is the way I try to explain the ramifications of Armageddon to a JW.

    Think of your closest neighbor. Do you think he actually understands the issue of universal sovereignty? Do you think a god of justice would execute someone based upon their choice in a matter that they clearly don’t understand? -typical response is that at the time they will know- How many years have you been preaching? Yet, after all that time, your own closest neighbor doesn’t understand yet. I thought Jehovah was blessing your efforts.

  • November 19, 2013 at 4:46 am
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    When the birds circle and a group of former men and women come to kick butt, simply direct them to the passage in the Old Testament somewhere, that clearly states that God doesn’t expect the children to pay for the crimes of their parents. Something about someone else eating the bitter grapes and the child gagging. Can’t remember where it is, but I’m sure someone out there will remember it.

    It is a matter of justice.

    According to the WTBTS, Adam and Eve sinned. They chose to disobey. We, significantly, had NO CHOICE in their decision. And yet we die, and grow sick! Also, we are going to be executed at Armageddon.

    God should go and consult his legal team. As far as I’m concerned, passing on death to Adam and Eve’s offspring was contrary to his own laws. We are grimacing from Adam and Eve’s eating of bitter grapes.

    Can anyone let me know where this passage is? Am I making it up? It’s been over 20 years since I picked up a bible.

    So, there you have it. A biblical response to this doom and death, pedalled by the WTBTS.

    It is fundamentally unfair to single out individuals who, through sheer chance, happen to be born and be alive at the time of the end.

    God is a god of love. It is not loving to execute billions of people.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 19, 2013 at 6:15 am
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    How about John 9:40,41 “….we are not blind also, are we?
    Jesus said to them:If you were blind (not understanding he was the messiah) YOU WOULD HAVE NO SIN. But now you say ‘We see’. Your sin remains.
    This scripture is very clear as to judging people that don’t
    know, or really understand what is what. They have no sin.

    Regarding ‘other’ religions, didn’t Jesus say in Mark 9:38-41
    “for whoever is not against us IS FOR US. He was speaking
    of all who believed in him, knowing full well that there would
    be many groups.

    Who will be saved? God wants everyone to be saved, and will read the potential in all hearts. Pro 21:2 also 24:12 says:
    “If you say”But we did not know about this,” Does not the one who examines hearts discern this? Yes, the One who
    watches you will know and repay each man according to his activity . (Yes, I’m quoting from the new bible!)

    But isn’t it clear that everyone who is trying to live well,
    Love and help others, wants to believe in God, although they are not sure exactly how, can be given whatever reward is in store for mankind?

    There are many other scriptures that prove that point.
    The GB have depicted God as a monster, and they keep ignoring Christ. No wonder people think we are not Christian.

    I have to have the strength to make the courageous decision Cesar made.
    After 50 years I have absolutely everything to lose.

    Thanks to the Watchtower’s misguided rules, the light at the
    end of the tunnel is another train coming.

    • November 22, 2013 at 12:31 pm
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      In one of my previous comments I said exactly to same. How can people be killed by a loving GOD if they had no chance to learn about HIM and HIS laws. God will never killed such persons. But remember that GOD gave every person a conscious and when doing something and that little voice tell you not to do it and you still do it, then you sin. All of you must start reading your BIBLE. Stop living according to men’s traditions. That is why you’re dropouts and that is why you will be killed by GOD. Stop following men. The Bible tell you not to follow men. Why do you still do it. Why don’t you study the BIBLE. One thing is for sure. You all will be dust on the surface of the earth as the BIBLE foretell.

      • November 22, 2013 at 1:12 pm
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        Wilhelm: Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

        I assume you are a JW. I have a question, and wonder if you can help me answer it. Do Jehovah’s Witnesses follow instructions given to them by the Governing Body, or do they follow the instructions of the great teacher, Jesus Christ?

        Are you an active publisher for the Watchtower Society, in good standing? Do you report your hours to the organization on a time card each month?

        This requirement is in direct opposition to what Jesus told those who had ears to hear Him, during the sermon on the mount. Matthew 6:1-5. By reporting your righteousness to men, you are not following your BIBLE, but following the men in charge of an organization.

        • November 23, 2013 at 12:13 am
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          To report is exactly what Jesus told his disciples to do. In Matt 10 he sent his disciples to go and preach and in Matt 11:4 he said “go and report to John what you are hearing and seeing”. So when you report you are doing what Jesus ask from you. Not what the GB asking.

      • November 22, 2013 at 9:37 pm
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        Wilhelm, Youre obviously angry because we’re making sense, and the only thing you can do…in true witness. fashion, is say ….we follow the bible, and youre going to be destroyed. The fact is, the witnesses Dont follow the bible , and they are better at following men…the “governing body” than anyone else…even though theyve prophesied falsely all down through their history.

  • November 19, 2013 at 6:19 am
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    It’s the same old story they are expecting their “flock” to swallow. “Join us or die”, yet Jesus himself said “Come to ME”. He came preaching the spirit of love and personal relation with God, not fear or punishment.

  • November 19, 2013 at 6:54 am
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    I agree with many comments here, at least they raise serious questions about the criteria for “being saved”, but how would you understand Matthew 7:13,14 ?

    Even though being part of an organization might not be a valid criteria given the arguments made here, doesn’t this still give an idea that there are high standards to consider ?

    Maybe, as the verse above says, it’s really hard to get there …

    • November 19, 2013 at 8:51 am
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      At JB, and this is fundamentally why there are some 8 million JW’S serving out of fear because the GB(Men) are using scriptures like Matthew 7:13,14 to put fear in them that if they don’t serve in their supposed God appointed organization then there is no possible hope for them anywhere else. They are preaching exclusivity to their ranks in regard to who they think they(GB) are. Jesus often spoke in parables to help his disciples get the meaning of his message. Often times they were not literal in nature but conveyed a meaning for the reader to interpret in order to understand his message that he was bringing to the earth thousands of years ago. Many times people do not read the context surrounding a specific scripture and really don’t properly get the meaning of that one particular scripture. Have you heard the saying it was taken out of context? But lets suppose for a moment that we still go with your understanding or that of the GB who you listen to as the authority on the meaning and go with the understanding that many will die, Well then did Jesus say before or after those scriptures that we need to follow a organized body of religion in order to gain life? And if he did wouldn’t you think he would clearly and specifically tell us who they were? There were many prophecies in the old testament that pointed towards Jesus coming to the Earth that were fulfilled. Don’t you think with God’s foreknowledge of our day that he would make sure he made it clear through his word the Bible century’s ago what organized religion is really his Channel today for mankind?
      Well guess what? He did make that very clear at John 14:6 Where it says “Jesus is the way and the TRUTH” No one else is mentioned there, no religion,man or otherwise. Just Jesus himself. So why is it then that your founding father a 7th day Adventist thinker caught up in times,facts and figures exclaimed himself in his Studies of the Scriptures that “Organization is highly unnecessary” When what he started came to be what it is today a 1 billion dollar plus a year Publishing company?
      So you see the one TRUE Religion is each and everyone’s own personal relationship with God and his son Jesus our Redeemer.
      I remember long ago as a young impressionable teenager a Circuit overseer stating in his talk “that don’t be surprised if after the great day of God all mighty you see some of the folks in the kingdom hall not there but some people out there in the world you would have never thought to be there are there on the other side of Armageddon” To me this circuit overseer was perhaps interjecting his own thoughts based on what he thought rather then what the talk outline said. Back then there was a little more Latitude given to a public speaker in his delivery outside of following the talk outline provided by the GB. And rightly so as it is God who will judge us if were worthy of life or death, not a manmade organization. As far as your higher standards to consider? Its Gods word alone and not some material mis interpreted produced by men that is the ultimate standard.
      Remember it was your founding father Charles Taze Russell who exclaimed exclusivity in regard to his studies of the scriptures volumes in saying ” If one was to stop reading them, then you would fall into spiritual darkness. “But if you were to read them alone without reading the bible you would be in spiritual light” He actually went on to say “if you read the Bible alone within 2 years you would fall into spiritual darkness” So you see right from the beginning of the Jehovah’s Witness religion your founder has indoctrinated his followers into thinking he is above God and his Word the Bible!! To God and me this is clear Blasphemy!!
      Your higher standards begin with you and your own personal relationship with God. Not some time slip turned in at the end of the month.
      What makes it hard to get there is our own imperfections which we are reminded of every day. But as Jesus said I want Love not Sacrifice. He gave us the two Greatest Commandments to live by while we await his coming Kingdom.
      Obviously JB you are commenting on this site because you have Doubts and rightly so. We all did but being out from under that religion allows you to really explore the real Truth and that is Jesus and the exact reason he came to this earth in the first place. We really are not Apostates because we believe in Christ we only deny the deity’s of Men who want you to follow them exclusively. I wish You well in Finding Yourself.

  • November 19, 2013 at 8:06 am
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    JB, if it is indeed hard to get there, than what use was this supposed ransom sacrifice? Adam passed sin on to all, so the corresponding sacrifice must also be for all. Otherwise it’s not a ransom. As soon as provisos and caveats are introduced, then the supreme sacrifice that is central to Christianity is diluted.

    As a non believer, I must say that all of this talk of ransoms and sacrifices is very distasteful to me.

    It was also a problem for me when I was a JW.

    Humans have no frame of reference for this kind of justice. The closest we have I suppose is a parent child relationship. Even this is problematic, because no loving parent would act as God has done. No parent would punish the grandchildren for what the child decided to do. No parent would expect an innocent to die to atone for someone else’s sin.

    I reject utterly the notion of a ransom. Please see my previous post for what I see as a biblical rebuttal of the whole notion.

    It is significant that Jesus said why he died. He died to save his friends. It’s that simple. Any further significance has been added after the fact.

    If there is a God, which I doubt, then why would he punish the innocent? Why not just forgive us and help us to be the best people we can be? That’s what I would do.

    There is no scientific backing for the Creation myth. There is no evidence for an Adam and Eve. No trace of the anti delluvian men of old have been found. People did not live into the multi hundreds and they never have.

    I do. to wish to preach atheism. I am merely trying to ask people to view this whole issue from a human point of view, and apply modern human laws to this oldest and most contentious legal dispute in history. Does anyone own us? Does anyone have the right to dictate how we should live, regardless of the laws applied? Were we created to worship God? Should we be able to decide what is right and wrong?

    These are profound philosophical questions that humanity has been asking for a very long time indeed.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 19, 2013 at 8:09 am
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    Sorry, that should have read I don’t want to preach atheism!

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 19, 2013 at 8:32 am
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    Answer – How can you or anybody judge a person who did not received the knowledge to live a life according to the Bible. If a person live for his entire life without a Bile or any person to teach him, where does the Bible say that a loving God will just destroy such a person. (Forget about what people told you) I am talking about what the Bible say and I only believe in what I read in it. People will have a chance to show how they believe in and according to their choice they will be take away from the face of the earth. It’s not new light. Just read your Bible with understanding and forget to follow any person.

    • November 19, 2013 at 2:48 pm
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      So let me get this straight. Watchtower says you need to respond to the preaching work to survive Armageddon, to the point where Jehovah is said to be delaying Armageddon so that more people can hear the “good news.” But you claim that because this isn’t specifically spelled out in the Bible you can ignore the disturbing fatalism of Watchtower and focus on the pleasant stuff. How convenient for you. It’s what is known as worshipping “a la carte.”

      • November 19, 2013 at 3:34 pm
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        Please let me have a copy of the Watchtower or any written material that say a person will survive only if they listen or respond to the preaching work. In countries where the Bible is forbidden and a person have never seen or used a Bible. Where in the Bible does it say GOD will destroy such a person. Just give me that verse please. Everybody teaches GOD is LOVE. Why will he then destroy a person that was withheld from taking a stand. Please supply me with prove of your statements you make. PLEASE

        • November 19, 2013 at 3:38 pm
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          You need me to give you references for where it says that Jehovah is delaying Armageddon so that more people can hear the good news? What’s the matter, don’t you have Watchtower Library? If the preaching work isn’t linked to people surviving Armageddon, then why do you think we do it?

  • November 19, 2013 at 8:58 am
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    Thank you so much Excelsior, there are several very interesting points you mentioned, about which I have been wondering indeed. Creation account is one of those and I read some quite interesting material a short while ago, which was written by a scientist. I’ll come back and write more in detail about this and concerning the points you mentioned.

    I also agree with your point about viewing things from a human point of view. We have 5 senses and a brain and heart, this should help us to get somewhere to find a conviction, atheism or other.

  • November 19, 2013 at 10:44 am
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    I mean posted.

  • November 19, 2013 at 11:12 am
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    Excelsior, actually talking about the high standards, I’d like to give an example : A while ago I was reading Ephesians 4:31, which is about abandoning anger, etc. I must admit, those words don’t really describe me :-). The question I had is, if I lived in a perfect paradise on earth, would my temperament really fit in there, and would that place continue to be perfect ? This is just an example but what I mean is that we sometimes come across people with exceptional character and we may happen to say, wow, it would take me quite some effort to show similar behaviour. And it’s true, despite there are many great things, world is not a happy place to live. We’re not surrounded with calm people acting in peace, altruism, honesty and common sense. In my humble opinion, it doesn’t take a lot of wrong input to destroy the peace in a group of people.

    This is why, if we assume what we read in the bible is true, my logic says the objective should be that the ones who would survive Armageddon should be people trying to move in this direction, at the very least. I don’t have any specific conviction as to what profile of people should be “saved”.

    Regarding the points you raised, like why there should be the concept of ransom, and why the grand-children should suffer because of the sons’ faults … those are questions for me too. I just think I haven’t dug enough to form my opinion.

    Regarding the creation account, although I’m far from being a science enthousiast, I found some recent reading very interesting. The book “Genesis Enigma” written by Andrew Parker describes the stages by which the earth was formed and he says, although it was not the initial intent, parallels were found between the scientific account and the order in which the creation account was described in Genesis 1. He then goes on talking about the timelines where the oldest texts were found (dead see scrolls, masoretes’ works) and claim that compared to scientific discoveries’ timeline, it would be impossible to write the events in this order during the time the bible creation account was written, if it was solely based upon “knowledge”.

    I’m really not a science genius but I pretty much enjoyed the reading and it’s quite thought provoking.

    BTW, I’m also an ex-JW but at this point I endeavour remaining neutral with regards to the WT organization in general and also towards any counter-ideas. I try to see both the positive and the negative and above all, I’d like to keep an open mind and try to find the truth in all this. This is why I may be defending some standpoint at some time, but this is only because of my opinion about the subject, not just because it’s about an organization.

  • November 19, 2013 at 1:39 pm
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    Thank you, Free Thinker/Non-JW, for your kind words.

    @excelsior, formerly known as George

    “Even this is problematic, because no loving parent would act as God has done. No parent would punish the grandchildren for what the child decided to do.”
    —–

    Noah, God’s chosen one not only condemned his own grandson, Ca’naan to a life of slavery, he condemned all of his descendents too! His heinous crime?

    Ca’naan’s dad, Ham, saw a drunken Noah in the buff.

    Er … what exactly does that have to do with Ca’naan? You tell me.

    Genesis 9:18-27 New World Translation

    PS Did you know that the first mention of the word slave in the bible is the passage in question where Noah invents this despicable practice for his grandson’s line?

  • November 19, 2013 at 2:29 pm
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    I answered as requested but not post appear.

    thanks

  • November 19, 2013 at 3:44 pm
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    JB, the order of life as written in the account of Genesis could just be a lucky coincidence!

    We still do not have a full understanding of just how life began and how it diversified, as we rely upon the fossil record, where not all things are fossilised.

    Your point about bad apples is valid. But remember, we’re talking about a deity that is omniscient and omnipotent. He can allegedly read the heart of people. Surely he can aid folks to get along better without resorting to killing them? Most people who commit crimes are suffering from many ailments. These spring from many sources. A loving God can and should help people to overcome their problems and be the best that they can be.

    Now, for someone like me who no longer believes, I still face the same problem. Humanity has developed laws and ways to enforce them. It isn’t a perfect system, but it works most of the time.

    We also can help stop problems by providing a good education, adequate food, water and shelter, a sense of dignity, adequate healthcare and a society that values positive behaviours and challenges negative ones.

    It’s a long road and it won’t be easy. But I have faith in humanity. We’ve only been around for a few hundred thousand years and yet we have accomplished so, so much. I choose to believe in humanity’s ability to heal itself.

    Sure, we won’t get to live forever and cuddle pandas all day, but we will get to live a long, healthy life.

    Jesus was right about insisting on a personal moral code. He was right about showing compassion, and not falling into the trap of dehumanising those who disagree with us. He left us much to ponder. But he also left us with a challenge – do better!

    Jesus was not right, for example, to insist on adultery being the only criterion for a divorce. Way off beam on that one.

    He would be overjoyed to see how we have tried to do better. Modern society does not accept slavery under any circumstances. We do not discriminate against a whole raft of people who were formerly seen as evil. We have tried to do better. That is a fitting tribute to a good man.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 19, 2013 at 4:47 pm
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    I remember a talk at an assembly once, where the speaker said that all who arent a witness of Jehovah, were like walking skeletons. He went on to ask.. You wouldnt make friends with skeletons would you, you wouldnt go to a graveyard to pick a mate would you? I was aggrevated and offended at this statement, but I wasnt shocked. I was a baptised witness for 27 years, and heard statements like this my whole life, until I began to seriously doubt, and did deep research into this “loving” organization. What I found was unbelievable, and I stopped attending meetings. This organization is the most judgemental one I know of. Your opening statement using 2 Pet. 2:22 shows you have the same attitude. Ive heard the society misuse that scripture many times, just as you have. I am glad to see you on here though.(even though we all know youre not supposed to be..associating with us apostates and all (-:) I hope something you read will make you REALLY think…for yourself.

    • November 19, 2013 at 10:27 pm
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      It does not put you on the right track when you are a Jehovah’s Witness. But have to live Bible truths. So no one can say he will be saved because he is a JW. It doesn’t work like that. But JW’s try and live according to Bbiel standards and therefor all other religion is false and will be destroyed. Thanks

      • November 20, 2013 at 6:53 am
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        According to the organization, and THEIR interpretation….all other religion is false, and they are the only “true” religion. REALLY?!? (-: What would you expect them to say?

  • November 19, 2013 at 5:18 pm
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    ” I am talking about what the Bible say and I only believe in what I read in it. ”

    ——

    Wilhelm, I am posting a link to a wonderful free book. It is the transcript of a lecture given by R. G. Ingersoll in 1894 on the subject of the origin and contents of the Holy Bible. It is short (about 30 minutes to read) but is as powerful and relevant now as it was then.

    I guess you are here because in some way you care about the the truth, so I hope you have the courage to read it with an open mind.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/37703/37703-h/37703-h.htm

    Good luck.

  • November 19, 2013 at 5:42 pm
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    Cedars is right, Wilhelm. What you are saying is NOT in harmony with Watchtower teaching. It has long said that baptism is the mark of salvation. That is the reason JW’s give to do the preaching work.

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