Hot on the heels of its promotional video about the Philippines typhoon, JW.org has released a short film aimed at promoting the preaching work among young people.
The film is the latest in the “What Your Peers Say” series. Ironically, Watchtower has written numerous articles dissuading young ones from succumbing to so-called “peer pressure,” but peer pressure is evidently not such a bad thing if Watchtower gets to choose which peers you should listen to.
We start with a sister named Cameron setting off in a kayak with her friend. The impression is given that Witness youths are free to lavish their time on recreational pursuits.
“When we’re growing up, we all have to make decisions. We all have to choose which path we will take,” says Cameron. No hint is given that the penalties for going back on the ‘choice’ of becoming a Witness include estrangement from loved ones and stigmatization as being “mentally diseased.”
“Our ministry, teaching others about the bible, has always been an important part of my life,” reflects Cameron after telling us that she was raised a Witness.
If the sole purpose of the ministry of Jehovah’s Witnesses was “teaching others about the bible,” likely this website would not exist – or we would at least have very little worth writing about.
The more ugly reality, ignored in Cameron’s monologue, is that you can be a believer in the bible, Jesus AND Jehovah – but still be deemed worthy of a gruesome death if you fail to bend your knee to the self-proclaimed authority of seven men in New York.
Cameron’s video goes on to reveal how she was inspired by her local friends as well as accounts in the Yearbook to plan a preaching trip to Malawi. She relates experiences that she enjoyed, such as “sharing a seat with poor people” on the bus, and preaching in a home where she was invited to give a presentation in front of the household.
The video concludes by showing Cameron again enjoying recreational activities back home in America – hiking with friends, joining a picnic, and playing with a ball.
The viewer is left with the impression that the Witness faith is entirely benign, that Witnesses teach people about the bible in poor countries, and that they have the “best life ever” – including fun recreational activities.
Apart from the video’s strong coercive aspect, the timing of its release is also intriguing. Why?
JW.org has recently released the program for the upcoming regional conventions (formerly known as district conventions). When you turn to Friday afternoon, you notice a symposium entitled “What Must Be Kept in Second Place?”
As you can see, “recreation,” which was used as a major selling point in Cameron’s video, is top of the list of things that Witnesses are to keep in “second place.”
Eating and drinking, concerns about health, and even family ties are similarly to be knocked down the pecking order by Witnesses wherever seeking first the kingdom is concerned.
Getting away with it
The devaluing of family ties that Witnesses can look forward to at this year’s convention follows the pattern set last year, when convention audiences were reminded to shun disfellowshipped loved ones as an act of loyalty.
Regrettably, JW.org’s slick charm offensive will always whitewash over niggling doctrinal details such as the above, leaving countless young Witnesses enthralled by the glossy spin and PR.
Back in the late nineties I was one of the many Witness teenagers hoodwinked into believing that higher education should be spurned, and that by surrendering your youth to serving Watchtower you will attain the “best life ever.”
I now find it amazing that Watchtower can misrepresent its own teachings with such impunity. And it seems to have the media precisely where it wants them, at least for now.
Every year we see newspapers and TV stations emphasizing the financial gains to local communities from hosting Witness conventions, whilst turning a blind eye to the more sinister connotations of what is actually taught at these events. I believe 2014 will be no different, despite Watchtower brazenly putting its cards on the table in the above program.
That’s why it is so crucial that we expose such blatant hypocrisy and propaganda at every opportunity, especially with the future happiness and prosperity of so many young ones at stake.
With the media seemingly in Watchtower’s pocket right now, you can be sure that if we don’t speak out, nobody else will.
Related video…
@imperfectmagu
Please research the church properly and not from wt!
Jesus message was love and to care for fellow man.. Does the wt:
1 – assist the poor
2- treat the sick
3 – teach
….?
No. The church has educated the world, runs hospitals, feeds the hungry. I know I’ve seen the aids clinics in Tanzania.. Do t see wt doing that do you? That is real love for fellow men. Yes there are problems in the church but even if you don’t believe in God and compare the two, you will see the jws are self serving, only show conditional live for each other and are ultimately far from the message Jesus gave… Not a promo of the church but if you’re gonna say that the wts are the only ones following the bible, maybe you need to do so e research…
“Many weaknesses”????? How about the c.9,000 who die yearly because they refuse blood transfusions? Or the many who died because they could not have a transplant? (Now they are allowed) or the many children who ended with crutches or in an iron lung when vaccinations were forbidden? And what about the youthful suicides that plague the “brotherhood” because they can’t cope with the total abandonment of loved ones and lifelong friends? Shall I continue? There is much more…….
To Apochalypsis:
Vacillation in doctrine is definitely a problem…but note that most involve major biblical issues that are difficult to interpret. As an example, what did Jesus mean, when he clearly stated that “this generation will by no means pass away….”? Was that prophecy only relevant to the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, or did it have a greater fulfillment in out times? Obviously, the GB has fumbled on numerous occasions in trying to interpret this prophecy; but note that the GB has done quite well when it comes to the fundamental teachings of christianity ( eg mortality of the soul, trinity being false, etc). Of course other so-called christian groups don’t have this problem, because they don’t even attempt to conform their thoughts with the scriptures; and certainly make no attempt to explain bible prophecy. Within a decade of Jesus’ death, even the apostles struggled to explain scriptures ( such as acceptance of gentiles, circumcision, etc). The changes seen since the 1970s pale in comparison to the drastic changes the Israelites had to make from switching from the Mosaic law to the law of Christ! I’m sure some of them had questions too: why will Jehovah forbid the eating of certain meat in the pre-christian era, only to allow it after Jesus arrived??
Hi John,
yesterday on tv in Italy there was a program with two disfellowshipped woman. They told their experience of being shunned to the journalist. One woman went to see her parents with a videocamera and you will see the reaction.
To be honest I think that not all the Jws would behave like this. My parents in law would never shun her daughter ( also Jws ) When their son was df for 7/8 years they didn’t. Are Italians different? Anyway, thanks for all you do and hope you can use this link
http://www.iene.mediaset.it/puntate/2014/03/26/pelazza-scomunicati-dai-testimoni-di-geova_8474.shtml
Trust me, I have researched this very carefully….OUTSIDE THE WT. If you read the Christian Greek scriptures ( i.e New testament), you will realize that the major mission of the christians was to preach the good news..assistance of the poor was minimal at best, as it is among JWs today. Will you attack Jesus for having conditional love because he only miraculously fed peolpe he was preaching the good news to, and didn’t go round feeding any random hungry person he met?
Whether Jesus did or did not feed everyone who he encountered who was hungry is irrelevant. He is at least supposed to have fed and/or physically helped a good number of the impoverished and diseased people he met – regardless of whether they followed his teachings. He even gave the parable of the Good Samaritan, indicating that helping others regardless of beliefs was incumbent on all Christians. And you seem to thing Watchtower should ignore this example?
To Cedars:
Yes Jesus “physically helped a good number of the impoverished and diseased people he met – regardless of whether they followed his teachings”, but most of the help he provided was done in the context of the preaching work. He certainly could have made it his goal knocking on doors to find if there were any sick people he could heal, but there is no evidence this was his priority. Was his love conditional, because he resurrected Lazarus, but not other random folks who might also have died that day?
Similarly, as JWs our priority is the preaching work…and yes, acts of kindness go hand in hand with that. It is interesting that you brought up the example of the Good Samaritan. Here is a question for you: was Jesus being hypocritical, when he urged his disciples at Matt. 10:5-10 to avoid the Samaritans and preach only to the lost sheep of Israel? Again, it is a question of priorities
You’re very cleverly side-stepping two key points from my comment.
Point 1 – that helping people physically and materially was at least AN element of Christianity as defined by Christ himself. The comment to which I was replying implied that there was no such element to Christianity, or that “assistance of the poor was minimal at best” among early Christians.
Point 2 – the help offered by Christ, and which he encouraged others to offer in the Good Samaritan parable, was offered on a non-denominational basis. Witnesses ONLY offer physical assistance to fellow JWs in times of disaster, which is the complete opposite of the message given in the story of the Good Samaritan.
Need I also remind you of Christ’s words at Matthew 5:46-48? “For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
You have completely overlooked both of the above two points, instead trying to suggest that any Christian acts of kindness are to be offered “in the context of the preaching work.”
It would be productive for all concerned if you could avoid tap-dancing around the arguments of others in your eagerness to support your dear leaders, the Governing Body.
As to your question…
“was Jesus being hypocritical, when he urged his disciples at Matt. 10:5-10 to avoid the Samaritans and preach only to the lost sheep of Israel? Again, it is a question of priorities”
Yes, he very well may have been. But I’m agnostic, so that’s your problem as a Christian and not mine.
The point is that, at least according to Christ’s purported words, the poor and downtrodden are to be given assistance regardless of their religious persuasion. You seem only too eager to overlook or even misrepresent this aspect of Christianity in your haste to support Watchtower.
To make things more complicated about Matt 10:5-10 :
How much can we rely on the fact that he really said that ?
Didn’t Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery “go, and sin no more” ? I’m asking this because this part in the gospel was subject to controversy and eventually removed from the recent translations.
My question is this :
Upon what option a Christian and an agnostic would agree as the “best behaviour” ?
1 – Help only your own
2 – Help ANYONE who is in need of your help ?
Which behaviour would make someone look more “righteous” ?
To me anything else (because the Bible says so …) is an excuse for not going for point 2 …
Now that I commented, let me ask something I always wondered. Are Jesus’ teachings known on many places around the world ONLY through JW’s ?
What is the key point for “spreading the good news” ? Everyone knows about WT or everyone knows about Jesus ?
hakizimana
How about a video of the Malawi people coming to the USA And teaching the bible or WT version to American people? Riding the Transit and Air conditioned buses and going to Wealthy homes and driving in late model cars, eating out at restaurants, the best clothes etc.? Why does it have to be this “Western” woman going to Malawi and SAVING the Malawi people thru the teachings of the WT and gov body? Then it called the BEST happiest way of life? So you need money to travel globally and preach the WT version of the bible to be happy?
So she brings her happiness to the Malawi people as if they could not be already happy without the JW life or her preaching for a few months over there?
She should make sure she tells them also that they should not go to college, think outside the walls of the WT, Not take blood, don’t play school sports, don’t celebrate ANYTHING. Don’t wear a beard,Don’t join any clubs, don’t vote,not allowed to go to your family’s wedding, funeral, baptism, if in another religious church, Don’t associate with any people except JW’s, Shun anyone that leaves the ORG including your Mother, Father, Brother, Sister and longtime friends, Cannot question anything thy ever write or say,Tell all other eligions they are Pagan or wrong and part of Babylon the great and soon to be destroyed etc and on and on and on! Make sure all these “BIBLE BASED” teachings are shared with the happy people of Malawai before they get baptized and during the “family” Bible Study? Full disclosure.
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ImperfectMagu,
When you research the first century Christians, you should also research the other gospels that didn’t make the New Testament.
First century Christianity was not as simple and straightforward as the WT portrays. Even WITHIN the NT one can find issues. For instance, in the sermon on the mount, Jesus instructed his followers to observe the mosaic law. Paul, on the other hand, was against circumcision in his letter to the Galatians.
This then raises the issue, if first century Christianity is not a clear single picture, how can the JW’s be so certain that they are nearest that model?
Scubmaster
I agree. Do the JW’s ever do anything like install wells so the villages have clean drinking water or
increase crop production or teach them living skills alon g with the WT version of the bible? Don’t tell us that Jesus never did that? Oh really? Did he feed the people fish and Loves? Did he heal them physically?
That was a part of his ministry as well although it wasn’t why he came to the earth but he did set an example of what we could do for people physically.
However the JWs do not do that except in a Crisis and 99% only to the JW’s. Of course if a “WOEDLY” person is around when they are being fed they may hand him a sandwich or cup of coffee and then brag about how they help ALL people.
Ok you say you researched, Read the Epistle of Barnabas, Tertullian (on heresy, apologia, and dialogue), Then tell me the 1st Century Christians didn’t 1) Pray to Jesus and 2) see Jesus as one substance with God and indeed God (Martyr quote).
With regards to helping the poor i think you are wrong. Jesus revisited the commandments and gave the two most important, Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor (mrk 12:30-31)… This says everything.. not love your brother and shun outsiders.. Love your neighbor regardless.
Really true brotherly love is in the unconditional gift of charity to people. When JWs distribute their company literature door to door it is to save their own skin… But the kingdom is entered via faith not self serving works (aparently).
And if your kids had malaria or were starving somewhere and one organisation was freely helping you, the other giving you a magazine and saying “Oh sorry but here is a magazine and we might see you in resurrection. your earthly life isn’t worth saving”… which one would you think had Gods spirit?
I had no idea you are agnostic!!! I must admit, I haven’t read everything on your site. I was under the impression that you had become disillusioned over JW policies, but still had full faith and confidence in the bible and God. I was hoping to point out to you (based on the scriptures) that some of the criticisms directed at JWs and the GB in particular, could be directed at Jesus himself and many christians in the first century; but I guess this is a moot point, if you are agnostic. And no, I’m not sidestepping any questions you raised…..I just want to emphasize that the preaching work is our priority, as it was with Jesus and the first century christians. And yes, we do assist others in times of disaster based on our limited resources…. I’m sure you’ll agree that if a non-witness walked into a JW shelter in times of disaster and asked for food, we wouldn’t turn them away. And yes, even under these circumstances, we will want to make sure of the more important things….SPIRITUAL ASSISTANCE. Jesus did that too…when speaking to the Samaritan woman ( John ch. 4)
“I was hoping to point out to you (based on the scriptures) that some of the criticisms directed at JWs and the GB in particular, could be directed at Jesus himself and many christians in the first century; but I guess this is a moot point”
No, it’s not an entirely moot point. Though I am agnostic, it just so happens that the Witness faith contradicts many scriptures anyway – so I am quite happy to argue against Watchtower dogma on a scriptural basis because it’s a worthwhile argument when helping Witnesses like yourself awaken from their servitude to a corrupt and self-serving organization. As just one example, an Awake article in 1947 bemoaned the fact that excommunication runs contrary to scripture. Little were the writers to know that Watchtower was to soon adopt the practice in 1952, albeit under the re-packaged title of disfellowshipping.
http://jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/excommunicated.jpg
http://jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/excommunicated2.jpg
As to your point that “some of the criticisms directed at JWs and the GB in particular, could be directed at Jesus himself and many christians in the first century” – “some” is a crucial word in that sentence, and again, a piece of rhetorical tap-dancing on your part. According to scripture, Jesus and the Apostles were capable and willing to perform miracles as evidence of their divine authority. The Governing Body offer no such evidence, and demand that you accept their far-reaching self-awarded divine mandate on no other grounds than because they say so.
“I’m sure you’ll agree that if a non-witness walked into a JW shelter in times of disaster and asked for food, we wouldn’t turn them away.”
So, according to your interpretation of the parable of the Good Samaritan, the injured, robbed and beaten man is supposed to struggle to his feet and beseech the Good Samaritan to render aid. Funny, somehow that’s not how I remember the verse panning out…
The previous comment was in response to Cedars’ comment at 1:19 am (March 27, 2014)
To Holy Conolli (March 27, 2014 at 1:39 am)
I agree that persistent failed prophecies is a huge problem…it is one of the MAJOR weaknesses of the faith.
If we accept, ImperfectMagu, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that the preaching work above all else, is what Jesus expected of hos followers, let us consider the results (or the ‘fruits’ as per the Authorised King James Bible) of 135 years of JW preaching.
You have acknowledged the duff prophecies. In addition there has been:
1. The strings of deaths through the ever changing diktats on blood transfusion.
2. The wrecked families through the edicts on shunning.
3. The protection of paedophiles through the 2 witness rule.
4. The nightmares about an imminent Armageddon which never arrives.
5. The stunted lives through the frowning on higher education.
6. The social isolation through the discouragement of sporting and cultural pursuits.
If there have been any positive effects at all from 135 years of JW preaching, please, ImperfectMagu, do let us know.
Perhaps you could explain why Jehovah has chosen an organisation whose attempts at following Jesus’ example have left a trail of effects that are uniform only in their misery making negativity.
You have read here, ImperfectMagu, of a ton of ‘limitations’ of the JW faith.
You have come one here, it seems, as a defender and advocate.
This far, you have failed miserably. Set against the litany of JW abuses, you have yet to come up with one positive achievement of the JW outfit in its 135 year history.
Assuming, and it is a big assumption; that there is a God, and its exclusive word to mankind is the Bible, where on earth is there anywhere, anything to suggest that this Bible God’s sole earthly representative is a New York based global property and publishing company whose legacy consists of nothing more than death, misery and a series of doctrinal flip flops?
You, ImperfectMagu, have certainly not provided us with anything yet.
We await some evidence that a little late 19 century spinoff from American Adventism is anything more than yet another apocalyptic splinter, which splinters litter the history of Christendom.
If it was only the persistent changes in beliefs that were the problem. The beliefs have evolved out of 19th century guess work. Just reading about Russell and Rutherford would make anyone put distance between themselves and this group. Surely it should not be about waiting for someone to approach you if they need help? Look at all the “christians” that JW’s condemn and yet those condemned people send masses of relief to all sorts of places. They do not base the relief on what faith a person has, but upon a human (even christian) desire to help.
Hi,
did somebody watch the video I posted at 12;08 AM?
I know it is in Italian but it is very easy to understand.
A df woman goes to her parents with a hidden video camera
Ok
“I’m sure you’ll agree that if a non-witness walked into a JW shelter in times of disaster and asked for food, we wouldn’t turn them away.”
That’s just the problem many other religious orgs will actually be out there helping while you might not turn them away.. people are making a difference to real lives!
I just wanted to add this. I am of weak faith.. I am a scientist by training and see that there is most certainly a place for God. But things always make me doubt. Now this is my thinking: If i’m going to ‘invest’ in a religion, then it should be the one that makes me feel all nice, but more importantly benefits others and is loving.. So if i’m wrong and God doesn’t exist or the FSM exists then ok i was wrong, but the people i interacted with were helped by my existence.. even if i don’t convert them but show them kindness like Jesus taught then its good… I guess what im saying is if you pick a religion then it should be the one that shows the most love for fellow man and that is what i believe we see with the Christian orthodoxy. Yes there were crusades, bad popes, abuses in the church.. but the manifesto of traditional Christian churches is that of love, charity and hope.. and if its all mumbojumbo then at least nobody was hurt.. Contrast to the JW way of shunning, covering abuse and forcing people to die through stupid policy (vaccinations, organ transplants now blood).. and its easy to see where the “truth” is.. If there is a creator then by the act of creation he must be ‘good’ so to imitate him would be to be the most ‘good’.
ImperfectMagu
You are wrong about the preaching work being the most important work. What did Jesus say would be the identifying mark of Christians? What was his new commandment? When James talked about faith and works, what example did he use to prove his point (hint: it was assisting poor and hungry)? What did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to do (hint: give all he had to the poor). Please site an example in the bible where we see any first century Christians engage in door to door ministry. The first century Christians took up a collection and distributed food to widows. Does the WT do this? If you lose your job and need money, will the WT help you out? Did Paul live at a fancy headquarters? Were there hourly field service requirements? Pioneers? Why is being a zealous preacher not included in the requirements to be an Elder or MS in the Bible? Yet we make it a requirement. Did 1st century Christians engage in massive building projects? Why is going in service and building KHs considered to be more important than charity? How would your elders view you if you skipped service to visit sick, elderly ones or make meals for them? There is nothing in the Bible to support this view. Also everyone knows that most time spent in the ministry is wasted knocking on doors that nobody opens and long coffee breaks.
The focus on the preaching work is self-serving. It is used to guilt people into slaving for the WT and to discredit other religions.
All i remember was constant stress and persistent guilt no matter the situation. Every day all day, stress for doing more and guilt for not doing enough.
OMG Blu! that is so true! it’s never ever ever ever enough! I’m so tired ZZZzzzzzzzzz……..
@ImperfectMagu
When the disciples complained about a man who was independently expelling demons in His name, Jesus said the man would get his reward in heaven too (Mark 9:38-41). So Jesus looks at Christian individuals, not denominational affiliations or man-made elitist groups like JWs. Here Jesus lays it out clearly: ‘just because this man is not working with us, doesn’t make him my enemy.’
And recall Jesus said by their bad fruits you will recognize false prophets, and not everyone saying lord, lord and performing powerful works will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one doing God’s will (Matthew 7:15-23). Conversely, this implies those prophesying, expelling demons, and performing other powerful works AND producing good fruit would get their rewards in heaven. It, thus, appears true Christians are to be found among a hodgepodge of denominations. Jesus alluded to a future decentralized form of worship when he spoke to the woman at the well.
Btw, JWs are not the only denomination that avoids the military and they’re not the only organization whose members preach. One of the saddest things about the young woman in the video is that she goes to preach in a country where about 70% of the population has already expressed its faith in Christ and lives decently. Seems redundant.
ImperfectMagu,
I am an atheist, and yet I still use scripture as a guide and to debate with those of faith.
I agree with many posters. Jesus spent a great deal of time helping people physically. His preaching used illustrations featuring the poor, the weak and the meek. He constantly emphasised the necessity of compassion.
At its basic level, Christianity is a religion of reaching out, of positive action. Time and time again, bible writers highlight the need to assist others, bringing glory to God.
The WTBTS is a publishing company. It mimics the high control, high judgement religious leaders that Jesus battled with.
I have great respect for the words of Jesus of Nazereth. Sadly, I have little or no respect for a great many of his so called followers.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Please avail yourself of the excellent facts that Cedars has compiled on this site.
As a Christian, I would encourage you to visit JW Struggle. There is a link at the top of the page. There you will find a warm and inclusive community of honest Christians who want to see change in the WTBTS. I greatly enjoy the articles there, and I am sure that they would be of benefit to you.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Cedars you are the best agnostic and defender of Christ’ doings I’ve ever known.
You have the rare gift of saying everything in a way that is understandable to all. It’s a pleasure to read you.
Can you make English transcription and put the video whit subtitle on youtube please? I would be of great help to exJW comunity. Thank you!
Some good points were made on this thread! Thank you for the thought-provoking comments.
Roberto: I tried to watch that video in Italian, but I really couldn’t understand a word of it.
I just watched the video you posted from jw.org (Best Life Ever). While it seems like a pretty harmless public relations piece for advertising how happy you are, if you are raised a JW.
As I watched this video, I asked myself:
WHAT is the intended PURPOSE of this video? WHO is it made for? WHY did they make it? WHAT is the message?
— WHO is the intended audience? —
This video is clearly made for teenagers and younger ones who are already JW’s. They are manipulating and coercing children into making sacrifices to serve the organization.
It is a very nice production, and very well done. I like the music and the girl does seem so happy to have found a way to serve with zeal, and to have reached a huge goal she set for herself. (The end of this video implies that she is a volunteer… She probably had to pay her own expenses for this trip, although it’s not clear from this video).
— WHY did they make this video? —
I think the JW’s need to have SOMETHING for the teens to watch. After all, they are encouraging them to run out and buy tablets and smartphones, so they can be used to promote jw.org. Unless they give them plenty of content to watch, a young person is going to start getting curious.
I think the Watchtower is making a big mistake, exposing their youth to the addictive and distracting electronic media and the internet. They are opening a big can of worms.
I think the members of the GB, and the ones who are making policies and Public Relations propaganda, have been living in their Ivory Tower for way too long. They do not realize how big and invasive the internet really is… even Jehovah’s “sole channel” will not overcome the information age.
— What is the MESSAGE of this video? —
“Thousands of young Jehovah’s Witnesses have volunteered to teach the Bible in distant lands.”
— Could there be another, less obvious purpose for this video? —
Is it just me, or are they trying to get more young people to isolate themselves from any influences they might get at home (like love, peer pressure or any outside information)?
In a young, impressionable mind, that looks a lot like TRAVEL. How romantic, to see a young, pretty JW amidst all these happy, sparkling clean “Poor people.”
They are being told to set goals to: Move and GO to where the “need is greater!” (Get away from your popular culture and internet and your worldly friends).
A personal story:
Recently, my JW mother proudly told me how my niece (age 12) was interviewed on stage, and they asked her to announce her goals (GRRRR!!! This infuriates me!!) She said her goals were to “get baptized” and to “travel.”
The interviewer chuckled and corrected her with, “You mean, you want to go where the need is greater.” Hahaha… the congregation gets a good laugh at that cute answer.
It occurs to me for a SECOND time that Jehovah’s Witnesses are looking, at least on the surface, like Mormons more and more.
In the first case, the Book Study was abandoned in favor of “Family Worship Night,” an arrangement that (I believe) Mormons have been observing for some time.
In the second case, this video looks I lot like the “I am a Mormon” series of vids put out by the LDS church, doesn’t it? Or is it just me?
And when, ImperfectMagu, you have enlightened us to the benefits bestowed on humanity by the 135 years of JW preaching, perhaps you could answer a question that no JW has ever answered.
As you know, the authority of the JW bosses rests on their claim to be ‘The Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24. I have asked countless JWs for evidence to support this extraordinary claim.
None has ever supplied any.
Could it possibly be that there is no evidence? Could it be that the JW bosses might not owe their position to divine appointment?
Please enlighten us with evidence.
ImperfectMagu – circumcision issue did not cause death, the Gentile issue did not cause death. In the end if you remember first case, circumcision it was determine it was a non-issue so to speak. As a matter of fact no life and death decisions were made by the older man at all and certainly none where changed once a decision was reached. No were did they them flip flop and say oh you must get circumcised or you no don’t get circumcised. Also in the Gentile case Peter was clearly directed by God and his Holy spirit was poor out upon the Gentile first. Ironically it was a situation where people were questionings God’s decision even though there was clear evidence of the fact. Question the GB directions and see what happens..oh that’s right you get label an apostate. Again Bible Students still defend and use the bible and consider JW Apostates…Wow is that interesting. The IBS even have a problem with the way DFing is used. Again Seven Day Adventist will defend the bible as well. But Since JW are not allowed to examine these things for themselves they will never no, because they can only repeat what is being taught from the platform with out examining it on their own. One final thought one GB member went so far one time as to say if a family does not have a family worship night they would not survive Armageddon, last time I look only Jehovah can determine who deserves to survive and who does not.
Ahhh….., you say JW Shelters in time of disasters, what about shelters for the poor in other times, is that not an important part of Christian living?
And is the preaching work really the most important part of Christian living?
You indicate that the JW Org have limited resources, I beg to differ there.
They are a huge global organization with a lot of resources at their disposal.
But it sure does seem that the “waters are drying up” for them at this time and so they obviously are very worried about the survival of their organization as a whole.
Hence the streamlining of their organization to reduce cost, as well as eliminating various ones that might effectively reduce their power base, such as their District Overseers.
Consider this scenario. If a District Overseer start teaching something contrary to what the organization teaches as truth, then this can of course potentially effect the faith of many of it’s members in that particular district where the District Overseer is serving at the time and this can also create a knock on effect in other districts as well as one District Overseer could be conveying his own belief system to another and so on it goes.
Before you know it a mass spiritual rebellion ( I call it a reformation) could become a reality.
In fact from information I have gleaned from so far, this is indeed happening.
@ImperfectMagu
Without going into it ad nauseum the food strictures, under the Mosaic Law, were obviously not implemented solely for ritual cleanliness.
A moratorium on the eating of shellfish, etc., prevented parasitic shellfish poisoning (pork = trichinosis).
Purification and quarantine of those with a “running discharge” prevented the spread of bloodborne pathogens. These laws precluded the Israelites from contracting the “loathsome diseases of Egypt”.
However, Jehovah chose to eliminate these laws for Christians. Perhaps once populations urbanized (versus nomadic/tribal/paleolithic crudity), the recognition of the correlation between various culinary practices and disease symptoms became common knowledge.
However, you touched on a interesting subject and that is the doctrinal position of the Society. While I can’t speak for other posters, I would venture to guess that many would agree with what I used to like to refer to as the; “core doctrines” of the Society:
Hell Fire
Divinity of Jesus/Trinity
Immortality of the Soul
Holy Spirit
etc.
If the GB “stuck” with these, they probably wouldn’t have so much of a problem. I believe a lot of the issues stem from the innate human desire to dictate/rule/control others.
This is why they “weigh in” on so many things that aren’t even vaguely mentioned in the New Testament. For that matter, they have really gone beyond even the Mosaic Law by creating rules (nay, laws) covering personal issues that aren’t even addressed under the Mosaic Law.
While I don’t advocate unwholesome behavior, I do believe the Society is puritanical to the point of obsessive. The obvious preoccupation with masturbation is a perfect example.
For centuries, those that practiced masturbation were referred to as; “Onanists”. This was a misnomer. Onan’s sin was refusing to procure offspring on behalf of his brother. The Societies reasoning for the moratorium on masturbation typically devolves into nothing more than misapplied scriptures and opinion.
Since we all have to “stand before God” to receive judgment, why don’t they stay out of matters that were clearly left to one’s conscience? Rather, the GB prefers to enslave to members to their capricious and arbitrary/vacillatory opinions on these issues, subject to a Judicial Committee.
Again, while not advocating any specific behavior, we have to recognize that masturbation was practiced in Jesus day. If its elimination were of vital importance, it would have been specifically mentioned.
Please do not think that I believe that all things need to be specified to be unacceptable. However, when the Society is reduced to using scriptures that even they say; “do not specifically apply” to something, we are left with no alternative but to accept that it was left to a Christian’s conscience and they are overstepping their authority.
And, I forgot to add that for years I have cringed at the Society going out on a limb over “non-core” doctrinal issues and have supplanted the core doctrines with speculative fictions that are apparently meant to instill a sense of “urgency” in the rank-and-file. Let’s face it, the Great Tribulation and Armageddon have been used (successfully) as a substitute for Hell Fire.
The Generation Doctrine is pure nonsense and I am embarrassed for them. It was a specious doctrine from the get-go. It had a seeming plausibility but has proven false. There is absolutely no Biblical or secular precedent for the so called “overlapping generations”.
I never personally met Fred Franz (seen/heard him many times). I did meet Grant Suiter, when I was a kid.
They were both,obviously, intelligent and articulate and the old GB’s writings had at least an air of plausibility.
The current GB sure do put the “ordinary” in “unlettered and ordinary”. They are some of the worst public speakers the Ministry School ever produced. And, they say some pretty wacky stuff.
Whether you liked Fred Franz or Nathan Knorr, you have to admit that they were a “classier” bunch than current iteration.
It is my opinion that if they abandoned the speculative fictions and stuck with the “core doctrines” they would fare better.
Core doctrines, eh? Blood ban (introduced 1945) Xmas ban (intro’d 1925). Rapture and Pyramid measurements (Some Russell ridiculousness) – Aluminium ban (Rutherford rubbish) – Abraham and Isaac’s 1925 resurrection in 1925 in San Diego?
Yes, bring back the early masters of cult mind control and all those ‘core doctrines’ and the Kingdom Halls would be full again and the gramophone carrying door knockers enthused with a great, world beating zeal!
The previous post of mine was in reference to ImperfectMagu’s post to Cedars, so sorry about that if there was any confusion as to my post.
@Rowland Nelken
I think you need to re-read my post. The things you list are assertions I characterized as “speculative fiction”.
So what are these solid ‘core doctrines’? Any of the previous Armageddons? The Beast of Revelation as the UN? Please tell me of any JW doctrine. ever, that has made the slightest bit of sense.
That will certainly be a ‘revelation’.
I meant to comment on something some one said here about the video looking like a LDS video. Where I live one night a few years back I was up late one night and I saw a religious commercial come on TV. At first I thought it was an LDS religious commercial, but was shocked at the end when it mention the JW’s. I talked to some connections and found out JW’s do run commercials in some areas. I never knew this until that night.
@Rowland Nelken
I believe I listed most of them specifically.
The “solid” characterization is yours, not mine.
The items listed could be the subject of an intellectual debate. The issues you’re citing are purely speculative, on their (GB/Society) part, and not really able to be substantiated by a review of the alleged, relevant scriptures.
Whether you agree or not (which is inconsequential), it could easily be argued that if they stuck to issues of structural doctrine (divine nature of God, etc.) rather than attempting (and failing) to give “prophetic” interpretations of scripture, they would be less open to ridicule.
‘Divine nature of God’ eh? A God is by definition ‘divine’ as an organism is, by definition ‘organic’, and a word ‘verbal’. Did JWdom ever consist merely in mouthing the screamingly obvious?
JWdom has always been about this imminent Bible based Armageddon stuff and the JWs’ exclusive access to God’s Paradise Earth Kingdom. That is at its core.
It does not need an ‘intellectual’ or ‘debate’ to dismiss screamingly obvious ludicrous piffle as screamingly obvious ludicrous piffle.
@Rowland Nelken
heh heh,
A golfing buddy of mine is a “Divinitatis Doctor” (Doctor of Divinity), I can tell you first-hand that he would debate you on your definition of a God (perhaps he (God) constitutes the ultimate quantum observer?).
However, I find you most entertaining.
Please continue.
“dry humping”, too Haki–I’ve heard..
@ImperfectMagu, you said, “the GB has done quite well when it comes to the fundamental teachings of christianity ( eg mortality of the soul, trinity being false, etc). Of course other so-called christian groups don’t have this problem, because they don’t even attempt to conform their thoughts with the scriptures; and certainly make no attempt to explain bible prophecy.”
(warning: this is intense, and as the adage goes, everyone likes sausage, but no one wants to see how its made, likewise, we like to believe but no one want to see how a belief system is formed)
Actually, the GB doesn’t get primary credit, nor Russell, nor Rutherford, for molding these teachings, or defending the positions. Roll into any of the groups founded on Adventism (or Christadelphians) which subscribed to the thoughts proposed by John Thomas (Christadelphian) and a handful of trail blazing Methodist Episcopal and often anti-slavery traveling and church-rooted pastors, and you’ll hear the same thoughts on Hellfire, Soul, Trinity, Immortality–conditional immortality from Henry Grew’s writings, and “Come Out of Babylon” [Charles Fitch, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fitch#Come_Out_of_Babylon%5D
The rather tangled relationships continued until Rutherford needed to break out of the box and distinguish Watchtower from all the other “Bible Student” and “Advent” movements with 10,000 and 50,000 memberships here and there. Hence the growth of so many peculiar tenets for JW’s–no flag, no military duty, no vaccinations, no Christmas, no birthdays, etc. Funny, none of this fell down like manna until 1930’s and 40’s, years after the so-called “parousia” and clean-up by ‘arrival’ of Christ at the sanctuary/earthly organization.
Roberto, although the rules may demand shunning, for some it is personal choice whether a family enforces shunning to an extreme degree or not, as long as it is kept “quiet” and away from congregation’s general knowledge. The Watchtower waffles on the degree of enforcement from year to year, sometimes offering an olive branch of peace and giving families the leniency to interact with family members (restricting spiritual exchange), then other times encouraging harsh treatment and shunning strictly enforced for social and spiritual exchanges.
Back in the political days of the late 1980’s, the Watchtower, Inc went to great lengths to entrap Raymond Franz by issuing edicts that had a retroactive enforcement. In that case, Raymond was seen eating with a disfellowshipped or disassociated McGregor, and within weeks Watchtower articles arrived outlining excommunication and shunning for this behavior.
This period of “sifting” helped me realize how far from divine guidance and sordid the Watchtower enterprise.