charlieI was in Zurich making my way home from a series of Jehovah’s Witness-related gatherings in Europe when I first heard news of the terrible events in Paris on January 7th.

On that awful day masked gunmen burst into the offices of the Charlie Hebdo French satirical newspaper and slaughtered 12 people in what appear to have been reprisals for the publishing of depictions of the prophet Muhammad.

A further five were killed in the days that followed as the suspects tried and failed to evade the authorities by taking hostages.

At this point you are probably wondering “yes, but what does this have to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses?”

Simply put, the events in Paris teach us two chilling lessons, (1) that religious bullies will always try to silence those who criticize them, just as Watchtower repeatedly tries to silence its critics through slander, misrepresentation and threats of ostracism, and (2) that society in general offers little or no protection against harmful cults, because it ultimately fails to recognize the immense threat posed by undue influence underpinned by religious dogma.

Silencing the critics

I was recently myself accused of trying to silence people when I made a stand against “aggressive activism” in a recent YouTube video and accompanying JWsurvey article. Those leveling this accusation at me seemed to confuse the offering of an honest opinion in a persuasive way with some form of censorship.

I can only hope such people have witnessed the chilling events in Paris and have found the opportunity to reflect on what genuine denial of the democratic right to free speech really looks like.

If I really wanted to set about silencing people who disagree with me, I could do far worse than to take a few pages from Watchtower’s book. A good start would be to get any websites taken down that use my material in a way that fails to serve my agenda, just as Watchtower did in January of 2013 when JWsurvey was taken offline for 24 hours for the heinous crime of making a secret elder’s letter on child abuse available.

I could also lobby YouTube to take down any videos from critics that happen to reproduce my words in a manner of which I disapprove, just as Watchtower did only last month when they had one of my videos removed from YouTube simply because it featured the un-embellished words of Tony Morris.

If I were feeling especially malicious, I might find a way of violating the basic human rights of my accusers by somehow coercing their family members to ostracize them – perhaps based on specious public claims about their mental state, just as Watchtower does through its shunning policy (so recently underscored in the following sickly piece of propaganda in the April 15th Watchtower)…

disfellowshipping-provision

To download the full magazine, click here.

I do not suggest for one moment that Watchtower’s shunning policy is somehow on a par with violent Islamic extremism, but the truth is there are some very concerning parallels that must be addressed.

A common denominator

If there is one thing all cults are good at, it is silencing their critics and stripping them of their basic rights. Islam does this through overt threats of violence and slaughter toward any who oppose or insult its prophet and teachings, while other cults like Watchtower find more subtle, insidious means of gagging their opponents, as mentioned above.

At this point you might be screaming “but Islam isn’t a cult, it’s a religion of peace!” And I wouldn’t blame you for assimilating the default position of almost all politicians and journalists, who have a vested interest in keeping everyone happy by making appeasing “one size fits all” statements about a religion they apparently know nothing about.

But the simple truth is, the most cursory study of the Quran and its accompanying Hadith reveals a religion brimming with hatred and intolerance of any who refuse to subject themselves to it.

Non-believers (“infidels”) and apostates are not to be accommodated in any form other than as slaves. They are to be subjugated or destroyed, just as any who reject the message of Jehovah’s Witnesses can expect a feathery annihilation once Armageddon arrives and hungry birds summoned by angels begin to circle.

The only explanation I have so far heard from Muslim apologists is that the numerous incitements to jihad in Islamic texts are to be taken figuratively, or refer to some form of “inner jihad” – a battle within oneself. But this explanation, at least from the perspective of this jaded cult survivor, simply doesn’t cut it – especially when you consider that the earliest mass conversions made by followers of Muhammad during the birth of the religion in Arabia were made, not by administering hugs and being nice to people, but by the sword.

Knowing your enemy

Islam is not a religion of peace, just as Jehovah’s Witnesses is not a religion of love. To say otherwise is to disregard the written teachings and commands of either or both religions.

Yes, the majority of Muslims are peaceful, and we should be thankful that this is so. Civilization as we know it depends on this being the case. But the fact that the innate humanity of most Muslims can cause them to ignore or re-invent passages in their sacred texts that summon them to “make war on the infidels who dwell around you” (Quran 9:123) in no way lets their religion (specifically its holy book) off the hook.

By the same token I know for a fact that there are Jehovah’s Witnesses who refuse to shun their disfellowshipped family members (albeit secretly in many cases), but this does not represent a “get out of jail free” card for the Governing Body, or excuse them for their grotesquely immoral prohibitions on so much as emailing Witness family members who have left. (see w13 1/15 p.16 par.19)

As much as many refuse to accept it, the events in Paris were not the product of a few mindless psychopaths who would have found some other excuse to gun down cartoonists if they weren’t Muslims. We have all just witnessed the inevitable result of a lethal cocktail of harmful, absolutist ideology and traditions coupled with extremely potent and persuasive undue influence techniques – and not for the first time.

Unwilling to intervene

Once you allow yourself to fully grasp this realization there is something even more chilling to consider, and that is the total impotence of society in general to even recognize the problem, let alone deal with it.

Governments that mobilize and devote huge resources around a mantra as abstract as “the war on terror” without acknowledging their real enemy, Islamic fundamentalism, hardly seem equipped to grapple with the complexities of cult mind control and the damage it inflicts.

This is why authorities in countries that pride themselves on democracy and adherence to human rights flounder at almost every opportunity to deal appropriately with cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses when they mishandle child abuse, or tear families apart through mandated shunning.

At the very least such behavior should be met with the withdrawal of tax exempt and (it should go without saying) charitable status. If there is one area in which you CAN slap a cult’s wrist, it is on their balance sheet.

Instead, time and again intolerant organizations such as Watchtower are allowed to thrive as those in power look the other way, so terrified are political leaders of being perceived as (you guessed it)… intolerant.

It is for the same reason that bright young girls and boys continue to be radicalized into Islamic extremists: because governments refuse to accept the true, horrifying scope of religious indoctrination through undue influence.

Without even a willingness to address the problem of cult mind control (or whatever name you wish to assign it), there is little hope of authorities exploring means of inoculating young ones against these vile techniques, or reprimanding groups that utilize them to such deadly effect.

This merry-go-round of ignorance, ineptitude and injustice was one of the most depressing discoveries for me when I first awakened from cult indoctrination, and the events in Paris and the way they are being spun by the mainstream media are an unwelcome reminder of the broken world I live in – a world where the violent silencing of an opinion is followed by whining calls to “respect” the very thing responsible for pulling the trigger.

 

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Related video…

***I understand many of you will object to the tone of this article by saying that it contravenes the religious neutrality policy of this website. However, I have never been against people holding their own private beliefs, merely against these being inflicted on others. I feel recent events are an important reminder of what happens when we allow people free license to bully and intimidate people whether for religious or political imperatives, and I wanted to use this opportunity to explain why it is that we live in a society where groups that engage in such behavior are allowed to thrive.***

185 thoughts on ““Je suis Charlie” – Why events in Paris should be a wake-up call for Jehovah’s Witnesses

  • January 15, 2015 at 12:11 pm
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    Excelsior, I thought the point was obvious. But since you demand further explanation:

    A woman was raped by a stranger. Even if the crime was reported to police, it’s impossible to solve, the perpetrator is unknown. Such unsolvable crimes occur daily, all over the world.

    An atheist does not believe in justice for these unsolvable crimes. You have no faith in God, and humans are incapable.

    No justice for victims of unsolvable crimes? That idea is strange to me.

    I believe God exists, sees all, and will give final justice on judgement day.

    I don’t need to prove God exists. You can’t prove He doesn’t. You either believe, or you don’t. No need to debate that further.

    If you think this is divisive, as you said, you’re not truly respecting my right to believe differently from you. Be careful there; atheists can be hypocrites too.

  • January 15, 2015 at 12:40 pm
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    Ted, your advice to “concentrate on areas where we can make a difference” works for some problems, but it’s ineffective against groups like ISIS.

    WT indoctrination may be misguided, but at least their idea of destroying the wicked would defeat the enemy. Tolerance has limits. We cannot tolerate enemies who enslave or kill us.

  • January 15, 2015 at 1:57 pm
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    Found Tobelies,

    Have you never heard of DNA evidence? I am not aware if the lady in this particular case had any DNA evidence, but it would be possible to catch the rapist, even after many years.

    So, ” I don’t believe in justice for these unsolvable crimes” do I? What a ridiculous and, again, insulting comment! Of course I believe in justice for these victims! There are cases where an “unsolvable” crime has been successfully prosecuted, due to advances in scientific analysis. These previously “unsolvable” crimes turned out to be solvable in the end.

    You are questioning my morality and that of every other atheist. I am as concerned as you are about any victim of crime that does not receive justice. Why would I not be?

    Peace be with you, Excelsior!

  • January 15, 2015 at 2:07 pm
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    Found Tobelies,

    So, I’m a hypocrite for debunking your frankly offensive view of atheists, am I? Pathetic! Pulling out the H card because I have the temerity to take you to task on your ridiculous views on atheists!

    If anyone here is a hypocrite it is you! Your Messiah commanded you to be a hell of a lot nicer than you are being, didn’t he? Offending people who have a differing view to you, and belittling their morality is as unChristian as you can get!

    I have done talking with you until you apologise for the insults to atheists that you have written.

    Peace be with you,

    Excelsior!

  • January 15, 2015 at 2:09 pm
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    There’s a good youtube video by National Geographic and it’s called: Cults Escaping Evil My Life in a Cult Bio Documentary.

  • January 15, 2015 at 2:37 pm
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    I said the atheist view of justice seems quite strange to me.

    What is your problem? What does the word “strange” mean? What word would you prefer?

    Note that I am not apologizing. And you said “I have done talking with you until you apologise.”

    I wonder if you can resist the temptation to contradict yourself.

  • January 15, 2015 at 3:35 pm
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    @FoundTobelies,
    You’re absolutely right, “Tolerance has limits” I’m no pacifist.
    Cruel oppression has to be obliterated whatever it takes, that’s
    why I say there’ll be further bloodshed before it’s resolved,
    But I believe people power will be the key factor.

    Knowledge enlightenment is gradually spreading, replacing
    ignorance and exposing the tyranny of these controlling
    regimes. It was ignorance the unavailability of knowledge
    that kept most of us under the heel of w, t, for decades.

    We who visit JWSurvey don’t have an army or weapons to
    defeat Isis but our experiences and comments can expose the
    oppression of the w,t, org, this is an area where we can make
    an impact.

    The big problem with w,t,s interpretation of destroying the
    wicked is that, the wicked means everyone who doesn’t
    regularly go through the doors of the K,H, even little children,
    as you well know… Thanks for your response, and best wishes.

  • January 15, 2015 at 3:39 pm
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    Folks,

    No explanation and no apology for the outrageous slurs against the moral judgement of a whole class of people.

    The indifferent arrogance of some people with faith makes me very disappointed that those with faith cannot respect my choice to favour peer reviewed scientific evidence over just believing something is “The Way To Live”.

    We atheists don’t care about unsolvable crimes. We atheists have strange views on justice. We atheists are hypocrites for pointing out to those with faith that they do not understand us at all.

    The terrible irony, of course, is that we are faced with such casual bigotry on a post about the worst kind of bigotry there is!

    I am very annoyed about this lack of respect for atheists. Either respect our choice, as we do your choice to have a faith, or go do whatever it is you want to do. I won’t be helping you.

    I am genuinely very upset about this. It really comes down to respect. I feel that I have received none.

    The bible has plenty of advice to those of the Jewish or Christian Faith about humility, compassion and love.

    The recent comments have shown me none of these.

    Have a lovely day, folks.

    Peace be with you,

    Excelsior!

  • January 15, 2015 at 3:58 pm
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    Ted, yes, the WT is what most of us here have direct experience with. But Cedars did bring up the Islamic problem. I’m not disagreeing with you, I just wonder how the final solution plays out.

    Seems to me, most people expect “government” to fix the world’s problems, bringing freedom and justice to the people. But what exactly is this entity called government. Is it not you and I?

  • January 15, 2015 at 4:28 pm
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    “We atheists don’t care about unsolvable crimes”

    Doesn’t matter whether you care or not. DNA evidence can’t solve all crimes of abduction, rape, and murder.

    You are impotent; you can’t do anything about these unsolvable crimes. My faith says they will be solved on judgement day.

    Accept your own impotence if you must. But why you expect me to respect your philosophical weakness, is quite strange.

    You’ve had your say, and I’ve had mine. If you can’t leave it at that, too bad.

  • January 16, 2015 at 5:17 am
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    Folks,

    It is entirely within the realms of modern technology to end “unsolvable crimes”. We could at some point have observation of all, the same as those with faith have their god, observing us all the time. The point is mute.

    Atheists are impotent! Another insult!

    I have nothing but contempt for these outrageous slurs against atheists, that just keep on coming. This is in direct contradiction of every bible principle!

    It seems to me that the point has been readily and unambiguously made. “Too bad” what an amazing and moving example of Christianity! No apology for the insults, but instead even more!

    Jesus CHRIST would have been angered and ashamed at this pathetic display of arrogance and rudeness.

    I have far better things to do than have my beliefs insulted by uninformed, ignorant people that post on this site. People who claim to have a belief in a loving God that prove by their words to have no love for me at all. (1st John 4: 20,21. 2nd Timothy 3: 5)

    Peace be with you,

    Excelsior!

  • January 16, 2015 at 5:51 am
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    KateWild, in the Church of England Book of Common Prayer we read these “comfortable words” taken from St Matthew’s gospel, “Come unto me all that travail and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you.” Organisations and families may shun us but Jesus will not.

  • January 16, 2015 at 7:21 am
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    All these terror events produced by “false religions” is exact what the Watchtower witnesses has been looking forward to. This will from theyre point of wiew prepare the politicians to accept the world ban of religion performed by god through the United Nations. These days clash between the seculars and the spiritually intoxicated religious seem for me to be THE wet dream in the kingdom halls. On top of this good meal critics like JWSurvey is the good-smelling spice for them.

  • January 16, 2015 at 9:14 am
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    @FoundTobelies,
    We all know you cannot legislate, or force people to abandon
    fundamental religious ideas, it’s accomplished by enlightenment
    through knowledge. Already, prominent muslim Org’s, are distancing
    themselves from Isis, ( Org, of Islamic cooperation – representing 1.4
    billion Muslims .) for example. Of the 6 million Muslims in France ,
    2 thirds are only nominal, like most Christians . Also it eventually
    gets through the thick heads of terrorists, that people will not be
    cowed into submission. I believe Isis will fail. because it’s ideas are
    moribund.

    I may be wrong but I feel you’re leading toward the Bible solution, of
    a kingdom of God sorting things out, For many reasons, not least of
    which is that the Old Testament God ordered the perpetration of
    atrocities equally as vile if not exceeding any committed by Isis, this
    is something I cannot accept. And since the New Testament rests on
    the foundation of the old both collapse. Isis is a human problem and
    humans will have to sort it out.

    Please forgive me if I have put words into your mouth, and thanks
    for the exchange of ideas. we can but speculate.

  • January 16, 2015 at 11:46 am
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    Ted, my point was, if you think humans must sort it out, don’t wait for somebody else, like the government, to do it for you. Like the old saying says, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.

    As for the Bible solution and what I believe, I don’t think people can sort it out, on their own. You may feel that predicting the future is pure speculation. No one knows all the details, but my faith provides an outline.

    If we’re guessing what each other think, I guess you either lost your faith, or never developed it to maturity.

  • January 16, 2015 at 2:24 pm
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    Found to belies, this website is here to help people express their thoughts on being part of an ideology that has controlled us for the better part of our lives. I have my own personal beliefs but I don’t think that we should judge others for theirs. If the ultimate truth were out there I think everyone would chose it but it’s not because that’s life. Not picking on you just saying.

  • January 16, 2015 at 2:39 pm
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    Found Tobelies, you’re more polarising than most JWs I know. This black/white view solution vs problem is damaging. It can be better to take a step back and think about the next step, than performing the wrong decision and damaging even more (and have to regret a lot later on). You’re free to believe what you want, but the problem with such faith in a judgment day is that it can lead to laziness. Because if God is going to sort it out anyway, why (overly) tire yourself now? Exactly like the elders say in case of only 1 witness to child abuse, “we’ll leave it in Jehovah’s hands.” That’s probably not your position on this issue, but then you do feel like enforcing justice where possible, and therefore must have some faith in the “human justice system” (government or however). Your stance is not a consistent one. Banning slavery was not invented by believing in a judgment day, neither was giving women more equal rights.

  • January 16, 2015 at 4:08 pm
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    ISIS might consider you polarizing. And kill you for it. Would that make them right?

    You criticize my position, but what is yours? Are you willing to commit to a viable solution? If so, what is it? Or do you just want to be neutral, so that people like you, and have some online friends?

    Faith in God’s judgement day does not cause laziness, unless you look at it the wrong way.

    We can support the human justice system. But human justice often fails. If that’s as far as your belief goes, in effect you’re saying to victims of injustice, “Hey, tough luck, there is no God, and your case fell through the cracks of evolution. You weren’t the fittest, and you didn’t survive. Too bad for you.”

    My faith offers more; a solution beyond human power. Whether you believe that or not, is a personal choice.

    My choice is no more polarizing than its opposite. Saying otherwise is inconsistent.

  • January 16, 2015 at 4:20 pm
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    Grace, as I’ve said before, truth is where you find it. But people who can’t take criticism will never find it.

    My criticisms are aimed at ideas, not individuals. It’s unfortunate that some people take it personally, and overreact.

  • January 16, 2015 at 5:32 pm
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    @Found to belies. Point taken.

  • January 17, 2015 at 5:35 am
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    Folks,

    We over-react and take things personally, now! Is there no end to the abuse? Accusing a man in his 80s of never developing faith to its maturity. What next?

    It’s really very simple. Those of a Christian Faith – either follow what you are commanded to do by God and Jesus or show everyone that you are really a bigot with nothing to offer except abuse.

    Isn’t it amazing that it is always the other person’s problem? It can’t possibly be the case that spouting insults about atheists is in direct contradiction of a plethora of scriptures, can it? No, we are supposed to just take these insults, because believing in Judgement Day excuses all rudeness and ignorance, doesn’t it?

    I have no problem with a polite debate, and ideas should be examined, but this lip curling,arrogant dismissal of differing beliefs is of no benefit to anyone.

    I even took the time to list some scriptural backing for my opinion, and there is no reponse on these, is there?

    Wake up, folks! Today it’s atheists that are “impotent”and “strange”. Who will be on the receiving end the next time?

    This could so easily have been avoided with a little humility and a simple apology for any unintended offence. Instead I fear this will run and run, with other groups who do not believe in a fix-all “Judgement Day” becoming fresh targets of this indifferent, ignorant attack.

    Let’s wait and see what choice insults come next!

    Peace be with you, Excelsior!

  • January 17, 2015 at 8:22 am
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    Found Tobelies, hahaha what a whole lot of nonsense!

    “truth is where you find it” = everyone defines his own truth

    “But people who can’t take criticism” = people who are offended by my rudeness

    “will never find it” = I will never allow them to have their own opinion of what is truth. (Ie. a direct contradiction of your first sentence).

  • January 17, 2015 at 9:57 am
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    Gareth,

    Thank you, sir, for seeing the point I was trying to make.

    It is reassuring to know that it was not just me that was disturbed by those comments.

    I want to live and let live, but for that to happen I must both respect those with differing opinions, and receive respect for mine.

    Peace be with you, Excelsior!

  • January 17, 2015 at 10:28 am
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    Truth is one thing. Belief is another.

    Two opposite beliefs can’t both be true. One is right. The other is wrong. One will succeed. The other will fail.

    “Truth is where you find it” is not advice to define your own truth. No; it’s advice to recognize truth where you happen to meet it. Finding truth is a journey, a process. It doesn’t stop when you join an organization, or leave one.

    When I was growing up, my parents weren’t right about everything they told me. But there weren’t wrong about everything either. I learned good ideas from them. I didn’t throw out all their ideas just because some were wrong. I keep the good ones, and build on them.

    I treat organizations the same way.

    Faith is a decision we make about things unprovable. I don’t need to prove God exists. The opposers can’t prove he doesn’t. You either believe, or don’t.

    But that does not mean opposite beliefs are both true. Only one is. And the important question is, which one.

  • January 17, 2015 at 12:40 pm
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    @Found Tobelies
    I’ve found that ones “Beliefs” ( I use that word instead of faith ) are
    Progressive and I try to keep an open mind receptive to new
    knowledge. I’ve had to change my mind many times when I’ve
    realised another persons ideas are more valid than mine and if we
    allow for that possibility we’ll be respectful of each other’s views.

    Reasoned argument is always acceptable, it’s positive and enlarges
    our understanding, dogmatism and rudeness fail on both counts.

  • January 17, 2015 at 12:57 pm
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    Ted, respect has limits too. Do you respect ISIS views? I don’t.

    I’m not afraid to publicly denounce what I know is wrong. Calling that dogmatism is sly, but false.

  • January 17, 2015 at 2:20 pm
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    @FoundTobelies,
    I’me sorry I can’t follow your reasoning, and you
    don’t understand mine. Enough said.

  • January 17, 2015 at 3:13 pm
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    If you are of the atheist persuasion, I understand the atheist argument. I just don’t agree with it.

    I am tolerant of atheists, I don’t kill them for a wrong view. Their final judgement belongs to God.

  • January 18, 2015 at 4:24 am
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    Found tobelies. You are wrong about your assumption that one idea must be right and the other wrong. Both can be wrong.

    The one who believes in a god who will “fix” things in the end is relying on the abstract as the atheist doesn’t rely on the abstract but takes matters seriously and makes a plan to fix it rather than to rely on an abstract belief system. That is the difference between the believer and the unbeliever.

    Why does a man feel the need to understand why or how we came into existence? Is it to become the most widely revered person in all history? Why is it so important to figure out what came first the chicken or the egg?

    The reason people want to believe in a god is because they fear death and want an afterlife.

    God is a human invention. Nobody can hold up a Bible or the Koran and say it was inspired. Bibles are copies of copies of copies. There does not exist an original manuscript and who was alive to see it being transcribed to men by God? No one.

    Nobody was alive to see God create everything and nobody was alive to see it evolve either.

    So, the atheist is the one who is much more likely to take matters into his own hands and fix the bad stuff. The believer throws his hands up in the air and says god will fix it in the end. Why does anybody have to be right? Both can be wrong. Nobody knows anything about how we got here.

    So, in my opinion, the atheist is the one most likely to fix wrongs. In this world, most people perceive atheists as bad people but that’s only in their own minds. Just because a person doesn’t believe in a creator, doesn’t make them killers. That is a figment of people’s imagination.

  • January 18, 2015 at 6:42 am
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    and to add to my last comment: The ones most likely to be “killers” are those who believe in God. They kill to appease their gods.

  • January 18, 2015 at 8:15 am
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    Folks,

    Ted, one of the most balanced and reasonable posters here, is now “sly”, merely for having the audacity to be completely baffled by the disconnect in reason that is apparent here!

    I’m sorry, Ted, that you have been on the receiving end of abuse. We are not allowed to have a differing view, are we?

    Atheists have ” a wrong view” and “their final judgement belongs to God”. Wow! I’m feeling so loved!!!

    My bible says that it is Jesus Christ who will judge us, not God! Perhaps I have a duff translation! When a Christian removes CHRIST from a pivotal role, given him by God, then we must assume that that Christian needs to go and read the bible some more!
    That Judgement Day, as carried out by CHRIST, will be one of rejoicing and we shall have no need to be afraid. As long as we show love to each other, as JESUS loved us, we have freedom of speech! (1st John 4) Jesus died for everyone, including atheists.

    Let’s see how deep a hole is dug, shall we, before an apology comes? I am not holding my breath!

    Peace be with you, Excelsior!

  • January 18, 2015 at 12:04 pm
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    Try to understand this: either you live or you die. You can’t do both at the same time.

    You may think human science can solve the genetic mystery of aging and death. But I believe God will not permit it.

    There are limits to scientific enquiry. We, and the universe, are confined to four dimensions. Science cannot observe or measure anything beyond those bounds.

    It’s naive to assume that four dimensions are the full extent of reality. God is extra dimensional; He can interact with our reality, and alter it. We don’t have that power. We need faith to perceive God’s reality.

    As I said earlier, I was not inviting a debate with atheists. Their logic is weak and their arguments are vapid. It’s quite boring.

  • January 18, 2015 at 3:15 pm
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    Found tobelies. You say you don’t want a debate with atheists but then you insult them by saying that “their logic is weak and their arguments are vapid.”

    Atheists could be wrong and believers in God could be wrong. Nobody can prove evolution and nobody can prove that a God that created it all. It’s impossible to do either. All people can do is learn from life and yes, if they can extend life by science and make life better, then that should be the goal.

    Why in the world, would a loving God prohibit man from gaining better health and longer lifespans? Mankind is living much longer now than ever before in history. What kind of God would prohibit that? You have to have faith that men lived hundreds of years like what the Bible says those early people in the Bible lived. Nobody can prove that anything in any modern Bible is “inspired” of God so all that has to be taken by faith.

    Truth isn’t proven by concluding that since people can’t prove how life began with evolutionary theories, then the alternative “must” be God.

    Evolutionists don’t debate how life began. They have theories about how life evolved. That is all it is, theories, just as “belief” in a God is a theory. Both sides have logical evidence, but neither side has proof. It’s just evidence for both sides. If you have matter, then you have proof of that matter. If you don’t have matter, then you don’t have proof of matter. God is not matter. God is belief.

    Do evolutionists insult people who believe in God? They shouldn’t and neither should people who believe in God, insult people who don’t believe in God.

    A fact can be proven. If a belief can’t be proven, then that person has no right to throw insults over an unproven faith at somebody who has another opinion that is different than yours.

    Nobody should ever get into an argument over theories. If it’s a fact,then turn to a dictionary or an encyclopedia and you have won your case. If a person can’t prove their case with proven facts, then it’s incendiary to continue the argument and throws insults.

    That is the problem with all religion today and the Watchtower is no exception. The Watchtower has never proven that God created the heavens and earth. All they can do is try and convince people in God.

    People who believe in God have no right to be intolerant of unbelievers and unbelievers have no right to be intolerant of believers. It’s arrogant and baseless.

    As far as to four dimensions, I am too stupid for that discussion. Can you explain that? Thanks

  • January 18, 2015 at 3:26 pm
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    Folks,

    And…….here they come! Atheists’ “logic is weak and their arguments are vapid”.

    No examples of why atheists’ logic is weak, or why their arguments are vapid.

    The points about genetics are cringeworthy.

    There are no limits to the asking of questions. Science, in this sense, has no limits and no boundaries. There are scientific theories that there is a multiverse, with different membranes occurring parallel to each other. Modern physics has made some tremendous breakthroughs recently, like discovering the Higgs particle. Truly exciting times for all scientific endeavour!

    No debate on my scriptural argument either? That’s not debating about atheism, but about the very Faith they claim to have! I would really like an opinion on my interpretation of the message of Christ. How about everyone else?

    Just digging that hole ever closer to the antipodes. More ad hominem attacks and unsupported supposition.

    It’s a pity, because there are comments on other articles here that I really appreciated. They were logical, coherent, and contributed to the discussion. What a shame that this string has been such a catastrophe.

    We need this debate. We need answers to the following questions. Let us hope we can get something positive out of this for us all.

    What exactly makes atheists’ logic “weak”? We need some specifics, please. The answers can then be examined logically and perhaps we can make some progress.

    What exactly makes atheists’ arguments “vapid”? Again, some specific examples, please.

    I am tired of atheists having their beliefs belittled, ridiculed, scorned and insulted. It simply will not do. It is unChristian, it is intolerant and very, very, very boring.

    Peace be with you,

    Excelsior!

  • January 18, 2015 at 4:06 pm
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    @anonymous

    I don’t think you’re too stupid to discuss dimensionality. But I’m just too bored to continue. If you’re really interested, you can study that on your own.

  • January 18, 2015 at 5:02 pm
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    Excelsior, Personal attacks are something I have not experienced
    on this site before, except perhaps from the likes of w,t, apologists.

    JWsurvey, is doing a great job helping people recover from bad
    experiences, and there’s a friendly atmosphere and a feeling of
    unity, Name calling and labelling other people’s views as sterile.
    vapid, is out of place here.

    An apology would be welcome and amicable relations restored,
    But as you indicate, our friend, FoundTobelies, doesn’t seem
    inclined at the moment to offer one,

  • January 18, 2015 at 6:22 pm
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    @Found tobelies. I got a general idea of the 4th dimension from Wikipedia. What I got from that article is that scientists think there’s possibly even up to 10 dimensions, and I think it’s an interesting subject.

    Actually, if it could be proven, then that could be the best argument for a God since the theory seems to be about the spirit world. I think it is very possible for there to be a spirit world. I personally haven’t had any experiences like “ghosts” but when my son was about 10 or 12 years old, our family was traveling in the car at night out in the country and my son and I witnessed a very strange appearance in the sky. We both saw it and it was very strange. I will try and describe it as best as I can. If you can envision a very large jet in the sky with tons of lights on the wings and flying very close to the ground, maybe 1,000 feet above the ground, that is what we saw but we saw what would have looked like 3 of these very large airplanes (maybe 10 times what a jet would look like) and they were flying exactly in line with each other. We watched this sight for about 30 seconds and these “things” all flew off exactly the same distance from each other. There was no sound at all, like what you would normally hear from an airplane. It is something we will never forget. If it was just me that saw it, I might think I had imagined it but we both saw it and both of us will never forget it. My husband was driving the car and he insists he saw this “thing” too, but the way I remember it, my son and I were trying to get him to stop the car and he wouldn’t and kept driving but he insists he saw it. So, I do think that there could be “things” out there that we can’t see but they are there, just the same. So, when people say they see “ghosts” etc. I am inclined to believe them. That would come under the theory of the 4th dimension.

    This is a quote I got from Wikipedia: “If we can’t use the 4th dimension to time travel, and if we can’t ever see the 4th dimension, then what’s the point of knowing about it? Understandably, these higher dimensions is of importance to mathematicians and physicists because it helps them understand the world.”

    When I saw that last quote, my first thinking was that this kind of study just gives professors a job but then after thinking about it, I think the study has merit.

  • January 18, 2015 at 9:38 pm
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    My psychologist keeps telling me there’s two things I need to do to be happy. He tells me not to expect people to agree with me and he tells me not to expect people to like me. I understand what he means after reading these messages on this web site. :) Peace be with you.

  • January 18, 2015 at 10:01 pm
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    My psychologist also tells me I deserve to be spoken to as an adult and treated with respect. He tells me I need to establish healthy boundaries for myself and it’s O.K. for me to distance myself from family if they cause me unneeded stress in my life. So – I live alone, I keep my mouth closed and I keep my personal life to myself, private, because all of my family are Jehovah’s Witnesses. I love them and I feel there’s no need for me to upset them. This web site helps me a lot. I’m learning a lot from you guys. I believe religion is superstition. I enjoy reading your comments. Don’t worry about people being in agreement with you. Write your comments.

  • January 19, 2015 at 6:38 am
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    Folks,

    I have just read the comment on another string where my attempt to reach out to our person of faith through scripture has been likened to a rapist giving an opinion on the Kama Sutra! Apologies if I have misspelled that.

    There has been no attempt to explain why atheists’ arguments are “vapid” or why their logic is “weak”.

    Instead there is the above insult, posted on another thread.

    I think that I have made my point. There is no-one on this site who backs these statements. No-one.

    My points have been verified. My opinion of these offensive comments are shared by the group. My job is done.

    I hope that these comments, and the singular lack of an apology, remain here for all to read. They are a testament to intolerance, rudeness, ignorance and abuse, all carried out in the name of Jesus Christ, a person that I retain a great deal of respect for. I genuinely love JESUS, and his message of love and compassion. It saddens me that people who claim to follow him and believe that he is the Messiah fail so spectacularly to actually do what they are supposed to do.

    Peace be with you,

    Excelsior!

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