A week ago this website covered the leaking of several videos that were used during a recent “Kingdom Ministry School” – a special training event to which only elders are invited. The videos were apparently leaked by Spanish-speaking elders.
Two of the videos showed Governing Body members Anthony Morris and Stephen Lett reminding elders to be “obedient” and “decisive” in carrying out their duties.
The other 42-minute video was a dramatization showing a young man coming forward and confessing fornication to his elders before finally being disfellowshipped.
The trouble was, the disfellowshipping video had been completely dubbed over in Spanish, making it difficult for non-Spanish speakers to get a proper grasp of what was happening. As a result, a few days ago two friends of mine set to work on creating an English transcript with a view to releasing a subtitled version of the video on JWsurvey.
As much as their efforts were appreciated, you can imagine my surprise and delight when, completely out of the blue, I received an email from a Watchtower insider offering to send me the English version of the film. This person didn’t like the thought of us exerting efforts making subtitles when we could have the original.
An interesting email dialogue ensued resulting in my contact sending not just the English disfellowshipping video but also a previously unknown video instructing elders on how to go about “shepherding” a suicidal widow.
To view an ASL version of the above video, click here.
Spurred on by hypocrisy
The main reason given by my source for sending the judicial committee video was his indignation at the hypocrisy shown by the Governing Body through its judicial policies.
As my source pointed out, the Governing Body has been allowed to repeatedly make all manner of mistakes over the decades, many of which have far-reaching consequences. But they always shield themselves from the fall-out from their own errors, or from taking responsibility for their actions.
Meanwhile, if a Witness comes forward honestly confessing some indiscretion he is leapt upon and potentially given the worst possible punishment – estrangement from his family.
In the case of the disfellowshipping video, a young man named Robbie confesses to fornication in a one-night stand, blaming a “worldly” girl for having “seduced” him using, erm… her aquarium (don’t ask!).
Robbie initially covers up the fact that he has been having sex on numerous occasions with the same girl over the past two months, but this detail is later revealed following persistent questioning from the elders. It becomes obvious that the main motivation for Robbie in his concealment of the full extent of his actions is his intense fear of Watchtower’s shunning policy and its consequences on his family and friends.
The video also goes to great lengths to remind elders that any elders who can be identified as being friends with the wrongdoer are not to be considered suitable for serving on the judicial committee. The reason? Elders need to be “objective.” The idea is that if an elder is good friends with the accused he could be biased, and would likely not reach the correct decision EVEN if he is not a relative.
Watchtower doesn’t want too much mercy being shown in these situations.
It is also painfully obvious when watching the video that Watchtower values its elitist “eyes only” approach to disseminating information. Elders are shown consulting their Shepherd books while Robbie is not in the room in order to decide on his fate. Moments before Robbie is due to walk in the room they put their books away – books containing rules that he is not privy to, but which affect him profoundly.
As I pointed out in my previous article – how can secret information affecting all but available to only a privileged elite be biblically justified?
Disfellowshipping video – Part 1
Disfellowshipping video – Part 2
The above videos are likely to be removed by Watchtower, so you are welcome to download them if you wish… Judicial 1 | Judicial 2 | Shepherding
Dangerously negligent instructions
But perhaps more disturbing was another video sent to me, also utilized during the Kingdom Ministry School and replete with similarly horrendous acting. This second video depicts the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ way of shepherding a woman in the congregation who has been recently widowed.
Unfortunately, though the latter depiction is supposed to be the correct approach, thinking viewers will be horrified at the negligent way the woman is handled by her elders using the “Watchtower-approved” technique.
Two elders arrange to visit the woman named Mary after she tearfully approaches one of them at the end of the meeting. Before the visit, the elders meet together to strategize over what they will say.
The older of the two decides that the visit will be all about convincing Mary to be an “integrity keeper” (a loyal Witness), and this is exactly how the resulting discussion pans out.
At the start of the visit Mary reveals that she is so desperate following the loss of her husband, Don, that she has been contemplating suicide. She even has a plan involving asphyxiating herself in her garage using exhaust fumes.
This should set off major alarm bells for most thinking persons with one iota of common sense. If a person has sunk to such desperation that they have planned the manner of their death, surely they are urgently in need of help that only professionals can provide?
So, what advice do the elders offer?
First, the older elder lectures Mary about Job and how this bible figure set the example as an integrity keeper. The elder insists that Job had just as many reasons to be “messed up” as Mary, and gives a perplexing illustration involving a needle going “into the red” to show the difficulty of Job’s situation.
Mary is then told to repeatedly chant “I am an integrity keeper, I am an integrity keeper” next time her suicidal thoughts surface. She is also advised to “read a little from the Psalms,” and equate suicidal ideas with immoral thoughts.
Finally the other elder bizarrely gives Mary a homework assignment, as though she is some kind of errant school child. She is told to memorize a certain verse in Jeremiah as yet another form of incantation for the next time she is feeling suicidal.
Armed with this outrageous pseudo-psychiatry, Mary excuses herself from the conversation to get some cookies for the elders. The older elder seemingly takes this as a sign that they have done their jobs well and mouths “thank you Jehovah” heavenward as the other elder looks on.
I realise the above sounds too ludicrous to be true, but this is really how the video plays out. The Governing Body seriously expects its elders to handle such delicate life-or-death matters in this way.
Elders are not to give out numbers for suicide hotlines or encourage a suicidal person to seek professional help. Instead they are to give bible-based lectures, urge the uttering of incantations, and hand out homework assignments.
These videos show only too clearly why Watchtower, so hopelessly out of touch, is having an increasing problem maintaining its organizational solidarity. As mentioned in my previous article on this matter, the Governing Body cannot claim the total loyalty and respect of elders and bethelites while a small number continue to defy them by leaking their nonsense for the world to see.
I sincerely thank my contact within the organization for following his instincts and realizing that this material needs a wider audience. Hopefully, as more damaging material seeps out of Watchtower’s porous walls, more thinking Witnesses will realize just how unworthy the Governing Body are of their blind loyalty and obedience.
Special thanks to my contact, as well as to Daniel Ward and Adriana Wolmers-Petty even though their hard work eventually wasn’t needed.
UPDATE:- As expected, on Feb 21 2014 Watchtower had its leaked instructional videos removed from this page through a complaint to Vimeo. The videos have since been re-embedded from a different third-party host. Below is a screenshot of the email received by JWsurvey for one of the videos to prove that Watchtower does NOT want the above “spiritual food” to be viewed by all Witnesses.
Further reading…
I can’t access these videos at the moment.
Well, folks, Mr Cedars and his contact have really upset the apple cart this time!
Why are the WTBTS so eager for these videos to remain viewable by elders only? Why wasn’t there a copyright notice in the titles of this video? Then I would have known that they were copyrighted material.
The simple fact is that anyone watching these videos (and I am not encouraging the viewing of copyrighted material without permission) will see exactly how to cheat the system of a judicial committee. Simply wail and cry about a relationship with Jehovah being ruined, and you will walk away scot free! Don’t worry folks! The same advice is readily available in the shepherding the flock book!!
In the second video about the suicidal sister, the complete absence of any advice to seek professional medical and psychological help is shocking. Yes, pray, yes, read the bible, but get that professional help as well.
This is the end of the beginning of the end for the WTBTS’ leadership. They have been weighed in the scales and been found wanting.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Hi Excelsior, you had me worried there! I’ve just had a quick check and the videos are still working. They’re now hosted in Russia, so hopefully pulling them down will prove a little more challenging for Watchtower this time round. Of course, they are more than welcome to try!
This really made me smile, hosting these in Russia. I agree it really gets things complicated for taking them down :-)
Iceland are really good for hosting things that cannot be taken down by companies, govts, etc.
Just a couple of points: all published material is subject to copyright whether that is stated withing the document or not. Obviously, the copyright notice simplifies matters when a dispute arises or when seeking permission for use.
Copyright does not prevent anyone from reading or viewing the material. If it’s there, feel free to read it. What you can’t do is copy it or redistribute it except under the rather ill-defined convention of “fair dealing.”
And, copyright holders are always free to allow copying with or without specific permission.
Cedars, I am using an iPad to view your site. The video boxes were black and blank this morning and are back now!
I am concerned that you will get in trouble with the WTBTS’ lawyers. If you do, then we will all get together to help you.
I wonder if a defence would be that these videos were made using donated money to a registered charity? Surely we have some right to see what they are doing with our tax money?
I’m glad to see that the videoes are back and even more people can see how the WTBTS really are.
Sorry to scare you like that!
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Thanks, Rob for clarifying the position on copyrighted material. That is reassuring.
I believe that the WTBTS is really worried about these leaks. It really is an eye opener to any viewers as to who they are and what they are really like.
Cedars, as an ex elder, can you clarify the position on how the WTBTS would view Lucy? Would they really expect a Christian to cut off contact with a young lady who is pregnant with a Witness man’s child? That was really shocking to me. Surely the Witness man has a duty to care for his offspring?
I am pleased that these exposures are causing the WTBTS distress. These are the beginnings of the end for their unchallenged rule of eight million people.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Couldn’t agree more! “Paradise” with these fellows running the show would certainly be “hell on earth”.:)
I checked the Mayo Clinic and a site called suicide.org for real advice from experts on talking to suicidal persons, and compared it to the suicide video above. Needless to say, the JW video comes up a bit short, and by a bit short I mean they do exactly the opposite of what the experts advise:
http://questionsforjehovahswitnesses.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/secret-videos-reveal-shameful-example-of-jehovahs-witness-elders-helping-suicidal-woman/
“It’s been a year now, you should not still be this upset.” Way to go Loving Elder. This is not therapeutic communication, this video is teaching them to put all the blame on grieving individuals. I guess that’s not a real surprise.
From what I understand, that first skit was a “how not to” example. I was as sickened as you until that point was made; note the elder was alone with her in the room and he touched her repeatedly, both of which are also no-nos.
OK, I may get into hot water for some of this, but this is my perspective & opinion on these videos: 1, these videos are reenactments of what COULD have happened- not an actual series of evidence recorded. 2, no matter the religion or belief, the bible does state to not be “unevenly yoked” as the scripture of 1 Corinthian 15:33 in ANY bible version, be it the JW’s, the NIV, the KJV, etc. even warns us in advance that “bad company & spoil good habits”. 3, even though this video shows the man is serious about repenting & being honest about his actions, which is good. However, no matter the religion/belief, 2 Corinthians 4:18 speaks of the things that are UNSEEN that is more important than what is, via, the fact that even this man shed tears doesn’t always indicate he’s sincere about FULL repentance. Now, this being a reenacted video, whatever may have truly happened, I can’t be the one to judge this man & say that he’s not truly sorry either. I wasn’t there. But in my full honest opinion, I feel these videos are being used strongly against the JW religion to make them appear bad! Not unless I witness something like this myself, I find it very difficult to believe this religion is a “cult”!
I’ve met plenty of JW’s throughout half my life, including elders, & have never had any issues w/ ANY of them. I’ve attended meetings before. I’m not a JW. I’m not even studying! And I’ll say that the JWs, from my experience, seem to be one of the greatest groups od ppl in this vile & dark world!
As for the woman struggling w/ grief, I don’t see what’s wrong w/ how these elders (in her home) are dealing w/ the situation (even though this is also a reenactment video). :|
“I’m not a JW but….”
(facepalm)
Ava, if you’re a real person and not a JW just trolling, then:
1. Please review my blog site mentioned above that includes instructions from experts, quoted from the Mayo Clinic and suicide.org, as to how to talk to suicidal persons compared to how these elders handled the matter. You’ll see they not only fall short but do exactly the opposite of what the experts advise.
2. Remember that Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t win any new converts by being anything but nice and happy when around strangers. Of course they won’t allow you to see the domestic violence, child abuse, pedophiles, shunning of rape victims, shunning of family members including children who don’t agree with them, double standards for men and women, and other shameful behaviors that are part-and-parcel of the religion. According to PewResearch, they have the lowest retention rate of any religion in the U.S.; 2 out of every 3 children raised as JWs leave the religion. Ask yourself why that is, if they’re “the greatest group” in this vile world.
Ava said: “I’ve met plenty of JW’s throughout half my life, including elders, & have never had any issues w/ ANY of them. I’ve attended meetings before. I’m not a JW. I’m not even studying! And I’ll say that the JWs, from my experience, seem to be one of the greatest groups od ppl in this vile & dark world!”
Ava, I actually agree with you on this part of your message. I have also met many very nice JW’s, and what I find admirable is the way they really do seem to try to live a good life. They seem to live their lives with integrity and I agree that the normal JW person (elder or below) is usually kind and considerate, and easy to get along with. This is my point of view, as a member of the “worldly” (never a JW) class.
That said, I would like you to consider a different point of view. Perhaps the experiences and perceptions you are getting from the JW’s are not a complete picture of what it’s like to BE a JW. They are on a mission of spiritual warfare, trying to win people over to their side. It makes sense that they would want to appear to be mild and meek, almost like innocent sheep. Perhaps they are still trying to win you over to the society.
I have also attended meetings, and did study for quite awhile. Sadly, we discovered that the “friendship” and love coming from the JW’s was conditional. They were loving friends, on the condition that we agreed with them. When my husband and I started asking questions about the JW’s, our friend turned on us. It was a shocking display from our gentle, 77-year old, born-in JW, who was and elder, and also our bible teacher.
I admire you for having the courage to come on here and defend the JW people. I have a great compassion for them myself. I would like to suggest, however, that you are not getting the whole picture of what is going on behind the walls of the Watchtower Society.
I wish you well in your journey, and hope you will continue to treasure your JW friends. They need friends who will accept them, JW or not. They will, however, turn on you very quickly, if you ever were to disagree or challenge any of their key doctrines.
Ask a JW this question, and see what reaction you get:
“Do you believe that the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses speaks for Jehovah God?” (yes, they must reply)
How do they know this? Who told them that? (the governing body did, of course!)
Just a thought… things are not always what they appear to be, which is why having this inside view of the way the shepherds are instructed to treat the flock, is so enlightening to anyone whose mind is awake… and so damaging to the powerful men who run the lives of JW people. The Jehovah’s Witness religion is a definitely a high-control group.
Ava,
It has been my experience that someone who staunchly defends JWs while declaring that they are not a JW, is, in fact a JW who is trying to polish the image of the group.
Most of us who post comments were JWs (active, possibly pioneers, ministerial servants or elders) who KNOW how things work within the organization and who eventually came to realize that the JWs were not what they claimed to be.
While these videos are most likely merely re-enactments or composites of actual cases, they DO set the precedent for how these types of cases should be handled, and the precedent is not good.
Not dealing with the fact that this JW man had a long-running sexual affair with a woman, got her pregnant and then went into a tizzy about her wanting to get married and worrying ONLY about how “upset” his family and friends would be without giving a thought to his responsibilities towards that woman and HIS child is unconscionable. The elders were solely concerned with how the congregation would look if a fornicator who appeared to be unrepentant was allowed to remain in good standing.
The precedent was set that, if a “worldly” woman whom THEY labelled as “manipulative” without knowing her, got pregnant because a JW man wanted to have sexual relations without repercussions (if, that is, she didn’t commit the “sin” of getting pregnant) she and her child should be abandoned. Really nice, and it DOES make the JWs look bad no matter HOW you try to spin it.
Also, the fact that videos were produced instructing elders on how to handle cases of randy JW males cavorting with “worldly” women as well as suicidal JWs indicates that these issues are becoming rather widespread within the JW religion, and that, in itself, puts the JWs in a bad light…a very bad light.
I f you are not a JW, Ava, you need to know that they believe you are Satanic and guilty of a capital crime. For defying the Law of Jehovah as transmitted to humanity by his sole earthly agent, the Faithful and Discreet Salve (aka the Watchtower Gov. Bod.) you have put yourself in line for imminent execution at the Battle of Armageddon. Your only hope of surviving this mega orgy of destruction alongside c. 7 billion fellow humans, is to become a baptised Jehovah’s Witness, attend your local Kingdom Hall regularly and spend all your available free time knocking on doors (or standing on street corners) armed with a bag of mags, and parroting the contents of said mags and Kingdom Hall meetings to anyone who will listen. You may admire the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but they deem you, Ava, worthy only of execution. So long as Satanic people like you are on the earth, you are nothing but an obstruction to the advent of Paradise Earth……….
Absolutely. He tried to suggest that the baby might not be his, he showed no inclination to help take care of it but was solely focused on how this pregnancy was ruining his life. But the elders never once ask him if he is planning to get a paternity test or how he will split responsibility with the mother.
How far this religion has fallen! Abandoning an unborn child is just fine and dandy. Abandoning a pregnant woman is moral.
I am no longer a believer, but these people are. The Jesus that I remember would be furious at their lack of compassion.
I hope that the authorities pursue abandoning fathers in the WTBTS.
These people sicken me. Their inhumanity is a red flag, warning good hearted people to get out.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
If Jesus lived today, he would be disfellowshipped …
Ava,
Did you just arrive from another planet? On earth, here, when someone is suicidal, you get them professional help.
I think your statement maybe what they call a truism – A truism is a claim that is so obvious or self-evident
“I feel these videos are being used strongly against the JW religion to make them appear bad!” – The videos were created by the WTBTS – unless someone has another video where the suicidal woman is helped to get professional help – they are bad. Is there another video out there where the guy is told to take responsibility for his actions? No then – then the advice in the video is bad. BTW this is not a dark vile world have you not seen the David Attenborough clip – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8WHKRzkCOY I can only suggest you read more of other people’s experiences and do not listen to the JW propaganda.
Ironically, those videos are even a ‘polished’ version of many personally shared experiences, with judicial committees, than their model sample. In reality, many of these jcs have been horrific!
Yes, Ava, unseen.
Read the bible and it is littered with people who fall short. We all do.
Jesus’ sacrifice is for everybody, because we all fall short.
The instructional videos show a haranguing, interrogation of a man in emotional distress. The bible says that our sins will be forgiven if we take steps to right the wrong, of possible, and practice sin no more.
These judicial committees are not in the bible.
Further, this unevenly yoked scripture gets pulled out to justify the abandonment of a woman with child? How on earth is that a Christian act? How does that help anyone, especially the poor, innocent child?
Believe what you like about the WTBTS. I see it as a controlling cult.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Ava, do you really believe we live in a vile and dark world?
I can only say that it depends on ones point of view.
Does the world face grave problems? Yes, it does.
Is everything, everywhere evil or disgusting? By no means.
I believe, I choose to believe, that there are many more good hearted ones than bad.
That has been my experience.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Excelsior, may I just jump in and ask one thing though ? Because this point is of interest to me.
If there are more good hearted people than bad, how come there are so many corrupt governments, who elects them ? If there are such a multitude of good people, why don’t they smash these bad governments right on the minute when they show their real colors ? And how come, by any chance, one of those good people never gets the big chair ?
Why “divide and conquer” works so well, for a little number of people, over millions of populations ?
Speaking of Oscar Buzz—
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2XOCww6-w&w=1280&h=720%5D
This little scene spoke volumes to me as I was coming to grips with my own rebellion against “the Men of the Watchtower”–thought I’d share it, but not everyone will get the import.
JB,
Sometimes it’s because of bad people oppressing the good, sometimes it’s the fact that a few powerful people with vested interests run everything, sometimes it’s because good people are so busy trying to live that they do not have time to challenge the bad, sometimes it’s because people choose the easy way instead of the right way….
It was ever thus.
Is this a reason to doubt that more good people exist than bad? Is this a reason to give up on solving our problems?
JB, you still have that “instant fix or no fix at all” mentality of a JW.
You may as well ask me why there are bad people at all!
It’s because of how we are.
Yes, the world faces severe problems – but would you say that the world is better than it was?
Can nations just commit genocide and claim it was their deity’s will anymore? No
I’m afraid that I cannot explain the human condition to you on a blog. There are many factors involved in how our world works.
I will end with this. Our human society is better now than it ever was in the past. We have institutions and rights that have been hard won.
We must continue to struggle and advance.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Well said Excelsior. The world is certainly getting more peaceful and better fed. De jure, if not de facto, slavery is history. Ditto glorious ethnic cleansing. Slavery and ethnic cleansing are both fine and dandy in the Bible.
The idea that a quick purge of baddies (Jews, non JWs, Capitalists, Commies, Bourgeiosie, the Irish, Protestants, Aristocrats, Capitalists, Infidels, Immigrants, Colonial Occupiers – Pick Your Own) will set all to rights, has ended so many times in abject failure and bloodshed that it is getting increasingly difficult to get a following for such misery making nonsense.
Onward, ploddingly onward!
Hi Excelsior, Rowland, many thanks for sharing your opinion.
I actually, do agree that there have always been good people around. Actually, I think we are all different tones of gray, some are so good they are nearly white and some so bad nearly black.
I actually can offer a more secular viewpoint as to why the world causes me anxiety. To be really honest, I don’t share the idea of “just waiting someone to save us”, no matter what my beliefs are … Honestly, if there is something I can do, I do, not because I think I can change the world, but if there is a way to make something good for anyone, it’s always a win.
Here are the things I must admit, that cause me anxiety :
It’s true that our lives are more comfortable, we can imagine all kinds of facilities that didn’t exist before. We can be better cured than before, we travel faster, we have organizations around which care for human rights, …. But, can we really say we brought forth the human moral values better than before ? Are we more honest than 50 years ago ?
I read somewhere that there are two options to cure human issues : Rush forward, or roll back … Roll back would mean, for instance in terms of the environment, to review our life style and make dramatic changes to revert back our original values. Rush forward would mean, invent new technologies to try to fix what we are breaking … If we had to establish organizations to save human rights and have to control on people because if they found an occasion they’d violate them, then we’d be in a rush forward scenario.
I feel anxious when I read about us using 4,5 times the earthly resources than we should. And in doing that, some countries are way above others. There is more and more concentration of power, it was never like this before. This means, anything good or bad done by simple (and not always clever) people have easily global impact in today’s world and this does happen. And along the way, the natural sources are being plundered, along with societies losing their dignity and equalities.
We do have beautiful declarations while the human rights are consistantly smashed everywhere in the world. We don’t have african slavery, it just becomes a class slavery today. In that sense, we are all equal ethnically, now it’s a matter of social class.
We’re better fed, but by companies like Monsanto ? I definitely recommend digging into the practices and aspirations of this company, who wants to be the global provider for our food … They got a Nobel Prize, this is saying that, apparently they have very noble intentions for the humanity.
My anxiety is not how the situation is today, but how smoothly it’s infiltrating to our society. World is not more peaceful than before in my opinion. It’s just that it’s easier to “kill” people today, and this, not always physically. You don’t need a Genghis Khan to rush over villages, or Hitler coming into cities … It’s quite subtle, it may start with our children’s education, and then their food, their distractions, their slavery for working themselves off for a new car or for the next version of an iPhone.
You don’t need swords anymore, in order to conquer. Also, can we say moral values are cared for in our society when the French President becomes more popular after his adultery was discovered ? When we read about raising extreme right, there is reasons for concern, because back in 40’s, there was no example of what this could generate … Now people know, and many are still not bothered to support similar extreme ideologies.
I think that money is the new God of this society and by no means, the great advances of our civilization didn’t improve our most important possession : Our conscience. In such a society, one can destroy the planet, plunder its resources, and generate such issues that they even have no clues about … All this, by keeping a politically correct face.
I really don’t want to sound like one of those crazy ones shouting on the streets, but I think anything “bad” is infiltrating our societies in such a way that things just look normal. So much that we seem to forget how systematically our following generations are being led towards a dried out, ethically miserable world.
Sorry if I’m sounding really desperate, I really try to set anything about religion aside, and talk by observation. I have kind of an impression that if I was an atheist, I’d express the same concerns. I’m not saying that we are doomed, I’m just saying that we’re not going towards a better world necessarily.
Try, JB, reading Rev. Thomas Malthus’ late 18th century ‘Essay on Population’. He was convinced that Britain could sustain no more than a population of 10 million, and that dishing out dole to paupers would only increase overall poverty. The paups would be encouraged to reproduce and thus populate the land beyond its ability to feed everyone. As to industrialisation. What was the point? Farmworkers fleeing to manufacturies would mean a labour, and hence a food shortage. I have yet to read convincing evidence of any damage caused by GM foods.
Hi Rowland, thank you for the reference to Malthaus’ essay. I will look it up. And it’s very true that forecasts are merely guesses.
I hope that my comment didn’t give a contrary impression, but I try to refrain from guessing what would happen in X number of years. I must also admit, as I’m not old enough, I can only rely upon things we read or hear from older people than us to figure out how world was like in recent generations.
Actually the main point I would stress is the fact that I’d just see the today’s developments and be alert on how it develops further, day by day. It’s like, if there is a whole at the bottom of a bottle full with water, I’d express my concern about the fact that the water is leaking, but I wouldn’t be able to say no one is ever going to stop that leak somehow. I think it pretty much describes my way of seeing things that happen nowadays.
And it’s true, every now and then in history people claimed the end was near … One particular memory that made me smile, was about a brother saying, during my childhood “wow, it’s 1986 and Armagueddon still hasn’t come” … Or another one, when the Gulf War started, “well, maybe this is the beginning of the end, are we ready ? “… I’m sure 9/11 just raised the same, and lots of things before and after just had the same effect. You are absolutely right about the fact that, alerts for upcoming doom were nearly constant througout the history.
I did mention about Monsanto, mostly because of their poor ethics and to what extent they seem to be able to go for money and for global control at the expense of lives. If you have a chance to read The World According to Monsanto by Marie-Monique Robin I’d certainly recommend. More than the effects of GM’s, their ambitions about the production of food worldwide that makes it very scary. This makes me think about the Nestlé CEO saying that water should be an element used for trade and not necessarily a basic human right. It just sounds like a horror story … I only know, such examples or powerful companies with the ambition of ruling the world is only a few in many.
Yes, Jemba. Kind of like the days when I was filing the info for my draft board, back in the sixties. It all depended upon whether the board. No consistencies.
I got the IV-D and my best friend went to Sandstone penitentiary. We are both out now after serving as elders, pioneering and Bethel. Hard to believe we participated in the travesty.
Elder inviting mary for backroom. Alone and touching touching not good. Why alone and no other broter inviting all alone together? Sister is crying crying brother is looking and touching, what if bad thought coming and want make explosion? That wat elder tell me don’t be lone with ladies u want make explosion. But why this elder lone with lady sister? Wrong no?
What kind of ‘explosion’ are you referring to Guru?!
How very dangerous and inappropriate. They are truly overstepping their boundaries more so than ever. These are all untrained non-professionals, to even promote higher education is forbidden as an elder, they have no place taking on such roles, giving misguided, harmful pseudo-CBT advice. Having created so many distraught and depressed followers, they now seek to hush and berate them into pulling themselves together via other, untrained, fundamental followers.
The belief system really is a house of cards, the governing body attempting to quell every inevitable passing breeze, including member suicide. It just ain’t good for the stats!
Cedars, I truly hope you send these videos to some medical professionals and charity status bodies. The public are sponsoring such malpractice. Thank you for your hard work.
An anonymous reader sent this comment via our contact address and asked it be posted:
“That’s the kind of advice you get for free”. You get what you pay for. We aren’t supposed to go to college so the elders are not equipped to handle any serious problems because they are just ordinary window washers and the only thing they can do is throw scriptures at people and not everyone follows the “script”. What are they to do when the person doesn’t want to follow the script and they go off the page? What are the elders to do then? A lot of the blame for this stuff is that most Witnesses don’t have enough confidence in themselves to demand more and not take being treated as if they don’t matter. Before they know it, they are old and their life has passed them by. They matter. They only have the one life and that life should never be taken for granted. This video shows that to the Governing Body, we don’t matter to them. It shows just how very stupid they are and anybody who takes this video as a “learning” video is stupid as well. The elders should expect more from the Governing body or else they are all just stupid and lazy.
I could accept the fact these elders are trying their best but I have learned from too many Judicial Committees, incompetence is rampant along with uneducated elders with no real Bible education.
It’s a shame the Flock are suppose to follow their elders, again I say, many of the elders are not competent with God’s Word, so they follow the traditions of men (Luke Chapters 15-18) and often can act cruel. I had a judicial situation where another elder begged to cover over his daughter’s transgressions, the problem was this elder was the least merciful man and expected us to sell out our Watchtower trained conscience to protect his daughter, with proper nudging from other elders, we covered up her Lesbian affair only to have it come flying back in our face!
Mitch Jensen,
The Bible, Mitch, is a terrible moral guide. Why should anyone have to cover up the fact that they are lesbian?
The Bible is full of the laws of men. Attributing them to a God is simply a means of control. It is hardly surprising, bearing in mind their provenance, that so many Bible based rules now appear primitive and barbaric.
We no longer view women as property; no longer accept slavery and we do not glorify genocide. In the same way there should be no shame about being a lesbian.
About 30 years ago, there was a young girl in our circuit who jumped off a bridge and tried to kill herself but fortunately, she survived. My mother-in-law was so disgusted by what she did and she said suicide was a coward’s way out and it was “self murder” and she thought that since the girl survived, she should have been disfellowshipped for doing such a terrible thing. I will never forget how horrible I thought it was for her to even suggest such a thing. But actually that is how the society thinks of suicide still. My father committed suicide in 1996 and they wouldn’t even announce it at our meeting and so nobody had any idea in our hall how much I was suffering. The elders won’t conduct a funeral talk at a hall for somebody who committed suicide as far as I know. If it’s somebody who wasn’t a witness, they are counseled not to talk about the ressurection hope because to them it’s “self murder”. It doesn’t really matter what gets printed in the Awake and Watchtower magazines for public consumption. That’s the way it really is. Those elders in that video are only trying to talk the woman into not killing herself but if she actually did it, they’d be disgusted by what she did, not sympathetic. This organization to me is like a Venus flytrap. It looks so innocent and pretty but once you are in it, your are trapped with no way out until it destroys your thinking and reasoning ability. It is nothing but depressing. You are trapped until the day you die and some think if that’s the way they have to live for the rest of their lives, why keep going? The most we can hope for is that we have a good turn out for our funeral, that is if we don’t kill ourself on purpose but then how will we know how many turn up at our funeral since we won’t be there to even see it? How to find happiness in this cult? I’d like an answer. So far, I can’t think of any except for the whole thing to implode.
When I was at Bethel in 1973, a brother was walking to work with me in the morning. We walked from breakfast at the 117 building to the factory every (work) day, six days a week. He was distraught and had just talked to Brother Geo Couch, as I recall. Couch was the “home overseer” at the time. Whatever Couch said to him couldn’t have been that encouraging, as this young brother jumped off building six that day. Suicides were pretty much ‘covered up’, I observed. The culture shock that some of these young people had to endure, together with the atmosphere at Bethel when I was there, was too much for some of these young people to handle. You are right about the ‘venus flytrap’ analogy, in my opinion. It’s appropriate that we now have a pretty large support group, thanks to the internet. Ray Franz was one of the few ‘sane’ people at Bethel while my wife and I were there. He was an encouraging man.
Oh Bonnie, your comment is so sad, but I can relate so much to what you say.
“This organization to me is like a Venus flytrap. It looks so innocent and pretty but once you are in it, your are trapped with no way out until it destroys your thinking and reasoning ability. It is nothing but depressing. You are trapped until the day you die and some think if that’s the way they have to live for the rest of their lives, why keep going?”
Bonnie, I was disfellowshipped and I saw it as my only way of escaping from exactly what you have written. I thought that if I had to continue living depressed and miserable as a JW, I would be better dying disfellowshipped and happy at Armageddon.
My heart goes out to you losing your father like that. I hope you have been able to get professional counselling or help to deal with your suffering.
Rosie x
Thank you Rosie for saying that and my heart goes out to you too. I’d give anything to have my father back and tell him the real truth about the truth. I sure didn’t get any help from the elders. I could never tell any of my relatives about how much I hate this religion and now they are all dead. You can’t tell your families in and outside the Watchtower. You can’t tell anyone at the Hall and you can’t even talk to your own mate. It’s the worst trap a person could ever get involved in. People say something like “it’s better than other religions because at least we won’t go to war” but other religions don’t force their people to spend every cent they have and made to feel guilty for every minute you aren’t going to meetings and out in service just to be men pleasers. If our hours don’t measure up, we are just losers as far as they are concerned. If it wasn’t for my children shunning me, I’d disassociate myself but I know my children would feel that Jehovah will for sure kill me at Armageddon and so in order to make me come back, they’d shun me for my own good. I wonder how many other people feel like that. For years, I have hoped for something terrible to bring down the Organization so that nobody has to suffer like this anymore and at least have some good years of enjoyable left before they croak.
Bonnie, I didn’t have children so it must be much harder for you. I did however have a family who I loved very much and I truthfully didn’t want to hurt them or lose them. However in the congregation I attended I didn’t see much in the way of genuine love or friendships. I felt very lonely and lacking in confidence and self-worth.
I did not have the option of disassociating myself or fading away, the pressure of a powerful JW family was too great. So the only thing for me to do was to let them push me out.
After I was disfellowshipped I discovered true and genuine friends, who really cared and wanted to be in my company for the person that I am – not because I happened to be a JW.
Although the initial period after I was disfellowshipped was traumatic to say the least, for the first time I was able to be guilt-free among people with whom I shared common interests; who were supportive of me and I could comfortably discuss things without being judged. I could spend my time with them without having the necessity of punching in hours of field service first.
What amazed me was how some of my new friends had family who attended church. Yet none of my newly found friends who had also chosen not to be religious had conditions placed upon them by their families and they all had very close knit loving family relationships. These were the very people that as JWs we were warned not be in association with; it just doesn’t add up.
My family couldn’t comprehend my leaving the JWs. They interpreted it that I wanted to be free to live a debauched worldly life – sleeping around, taking drugs etc. Not true, and over the years I have done my utmost to make them realise that.
However as Cedars site shows, the WTBTS continue to pile on the hatred against ex-JWs and so my family, controlled just like Stepford Wives, turn their backs all the more. I worry about the new younger generation of my family and I still retain a hope that I will one day be reunited unconditionally with my family.
This Organisation is built around fear and condemnation, covered over with a shiny gloss. It must be exposed to help protect and free people from this dangerous and destructive mind-control.
All those years ago, I felt very alone when I was in the Org. There were no support websites. A kindly lady who I worked with gave me the name of two people who she knew that spoke out against the JWs. I recognised their names immediately – they were an Apostate couple and they were viewed by the JWs in the same light as Satan.
I was too scared at the time to contact them. I have however met them since and found that they are a truly loving and genuine couple whose support would have helped me greatly at the time.
Do not feel alone Bonnie – this website and others offer support for ones suffering because of the Organisation. If you wanted at any time to chat off-line, Cedars has my e-mail address.
Rosie x
Thank you for the kind and helpful advice Rosie. I am okay and this web site has helped me so very much. I am so grateful for John Cedars for starting it up. If it wasn’t for my kids thinking that I will be killed at Armageddon, I could so easily fade away. I don’t want to disassociate myself because I do care about all the people in the organization and I wouldn’t want to hurt any of them and I think it would hurt many of them if I disassociate myself, since I wouldn’t be able to explain to any of them why I was doing it and even if I did try and explain it to them, they’d think I was in league with Satan in trying to get them killed at Armageddon and I already know that before I would even start and try to explain it to them. That is why my only hope for all of us is for this organization to come to a crashing finish and very soon so it doesn’t ruin any more innocent lives.
I look around at my kingdom hall and feel so bad for all of those people because most of them really do believe in the Watchtower’s promise of a new heavens and a new earth where they won’t ever die but when it comes to how awful Armageddon would be, they all close their eyes to what that really means. I don’t want to dash their hopes but I think they are all living in never never land. What makes it so sad is that they are wasting the only life that they will ever have and before they know it, it will be too late and the best years of their lives will be over and it was all for nothing. It just breaks my heart. If I even try and tell my children to look at the real history of the organization, they go off the deep end. They can’t hear anything I try and say and they even say if I say anything bad about the organization, they won’t listen. To me, it’s like in the wild when a mother animal teachers her young to fear humans. They are so scared of anything that even remotely sounds like apostasy, that they are afraid of their own parents. It is absolutely the worst kind of cult indoctrination I could possibly conceive of.
As far as real friends in the congregations, I think there are some really wonderful people but generally I think each congregation has groups or cliques of people who are really each other’s friends. Agape love is forced and conditional and what we need is philia love. My brothers and their familes, I feel really do love me but unfortunately they live hundreds of miles away so that support system isn’t there for me. What has helped me a lot lately are seeing the experiences of others who feel like I do. It has helped me so much to see that I am not alone in my feelings. Until I found this web site, I really did feel alone. Thank you so much for your kind thoughts Rosie and I want only the best for you too and I am so glad to hear your life is working out good.
Just another comment on how out of touch the elders are. Last night our CO gave a talk about how a lover of Jehovah wouldn’t let anything or anyone stumble them and he gave an experience of an elder who was deleted for a year and it was a mistake and then after a year of faithfully going to every meeting, he was put back as an elder but during this whole time, he never told his wife why he was deleted or why he got back his eldership again and what was so great about this elder is that he never even told his wife why any of this happened to him. Why didn’t he tell her? Because, “frankly, it just wasn’t any of her business” but then added, it was also to protect her so she wouldn’t have anything against the Organization. I said to my husband “did you hear that talk etc.? What do you think?” He said “what’s wrong with that?” Just saying that like that, made me so mad at him that I thought my head would explode and then I said “what if it was the wife and she was a pioneer and she was deleted and her husband asked her why she was deleted and she said to him, it’s none of your business? How do you think he’d like being talked to like that?” My husband’s reply was, “it’s different for the wife” and what he meant by that, is that he’s her head and so a witness wife must just understand the subjection and be happy like that.
I think I would have more fun living in an insane asylum than living in the land of The Stepford Wives like what it is like for me. At least I would have some understanding why those people ended up there now.
About 3 weeks ago, our PO gave a congregation needs part on cleanliness and evidently Jehovah must have told our elders that we women in our congregation were falling down when it comes to our sinks and toilets. It went like this “the outside of our house might look clean, but what about the inside? What about our sinks and toilets?”
Thank you Cedars for your website. Now I don’t have to get in my car and scream at the top of my lungs when I am driving somewhere where I know no one can see me. I can vent on your website and I feel like I am not all alone out here on Fantasy Island.
to Bonnie: Being a former Elder for 12 years and a MS for6 years I can appreciate what you are feeling and saying. It seemed like whenever these “special Needs” talks were given if there wasn’t someone doing something bad” or young people having to much fun? The Elders or CO would “create” things to talk about that they said needed attention! They would make up things jut to have drama and something to talk about. I remember one time a special needs talk was given about our young people having their hair to long or to spiked which was for the White kids and for the Black kids they were having to much of a “fade” haircut? I thought to myself? Is this for real what I am hearing? I mean there were kids on the streets in gangs ( not JW’s ) and people with guns, pregnant teens, kids dropping out of HS, Stealing cars, drug problems, and all kinds of other things in the community going on among young people and they have to pick something like that as a Needs of a congregation?
They could have commended them for being good kids and standing up to peer pressure and telling them how much we loved them but they had to find some kind of STUPID ISSUE to crate what they call a Special needs talk? PLEEEEEASE!! No wonder so many young folks leave the WT when they get a chance. No wonder thinking adults ask themselves What the heck are we doing? What does this have to do with reality? The real “special needs” talk should be..what does the WT offer our young people as a choice in life besides knocking on doors and going to Bethel to work for free for a few years? No higher education, no College, being shunned, being guilty until proven innocent, You Must believe what we say or all your family and friend will never talk with you again, no sports, no clubs, no celebrations, Just go to some meetings and after that let’s knock on doors?
They don’t know what to say anymore so they find and create something wrong to make up. It used to drive me crazy that they had time for this nonsense and thought they were doing something “SPIRITUAL”?
Hippocrates said something about opinions breeding lies and science breeding knowledge. The last thing a religious fundamentalist wants is for their followers to get an education. Education, study of the sciences, reading literature written by people who have made a life-long study of things-this is discouraged. These witness kids could have had a very positive influence around them with the members of the congregation if their brains had been stimulated instead of indoctrinated. Such a shameless waste of resources, no?
Bonnie:
You do have a choice as to not associate with the WT and not get hurt.I personally did it. I understand your situation and what I did was SLWOLY fade away. I would start missing meetings, then miss assemblies, I work for myself so I would make sure I had some work business to do, I would miss the Do and CO visits or maybe go to a few here and there. Little by little I just stopped. My wife who is a STAUNCH JW would talk with me and slowly I wuld express my viewpoints and eventually let he know I can’t attend anymore if in my heart I don’t really believe it. I always taught my kids to have an open mind so they could see the hypocrisy in the WT and man made rules they create. I always taught my kids that this country is based on freedom of Religion and at this point I choose not to have one?
Fading away quietly is the best thing for lot’s of people. Meanwhile you can make new friends, join a club, an art association, Sports team, attend classes etc. Lot’s of choices to do. It isn’t always easy but this way you are not DF’d or you did not DA yourself officially and after a while they hopefully will forget you and not bother you anymore. A few times a few Elders tried to approach me and talk to me even coming to my house to invite me to the memorial and I politely told them I did not have time to talk with them and thank you for coming but I wasn’t interested.Once I said to them, You guys are welcome to come in my house if you like but I will not discuss religion or the Bible with you? They have not returned. I actually liked them as people but I did not even want to give them a chance to get into the entire JW thing. If they did and I said something they did not like next thing you know they will try to charge me with some “crime” against he WT! Bonnie try to just fade away then you can recoup. less drama and you still can find happiness.
Hi Holy Conoly.
I have been slowly over the years come to the realization that I have been “taken in” by this religion but it’s been within the last year that I can see all the lies and I just can’t bring myself to go in service anymore and I feel absolutely no sense of guilt over it now that I see all the lies. I still listen in to the meetings though on the phone lines just because it’s a hard habit to break but when I listen in to the meetings all I hear is nothing but the indoctrination but it’s not as depressing as it was when I was going to all the meetings. For years I always thought that I had to go to all the meetings but every time I did, it would take me about 3 days to recover from the depressing affects of the meeting. I felt like I owed it to the other brothers and sisters to be there to be an “encouragement to them” but now at 67 years of age, I realize that now I have to be concerned about myself from now on and I feel no guilt when I miss a meeting. I am slowly fading away and I will go to meetings now and then but not real regular. I am going to use the excuse like so many others that listen in to the meetings on the phone lines, that I am “not well”. I wished I could tell others about how they are being “fooled” into wasting their lives but I know all it will do is make them think I am the crazy one. I am too old to be starting my life over now and I just hope and pray that soon this crooked and lying organization will be exposed for what it is, a horrible waste of time and life so that no more generations of young people waste their entire life like I did. Thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate your kind thoughts. I will be okay and it helps so much for John Cedars website. It is a life-saver for me. I think there are many thousands of us out here who could benefit from it if they have the courage to look at so-called “apostate” website like this one.
Hang in there, Bonnie. I was fortunate enough to figure it out half way through my life. (I will be 66 this year) I am glad my two sons don’t have to go through it like I did. The thing I like best about this site is that it isn’t offering a substitute or alternative to the witnesses. It is exposing the dangerous and harmful policies they are practicing. We are all here to help each other.
Bonnie and Chuck,
Congratulations in waking up from the WTBTS sopherific.
We are all grateful to folks like John Cedars and others who have provided shelter from the storm with sites like this one.
As an atheist, I find this site refreshing in its insistence of having no proselytising. There are a number of sites that cater for religious folks, one of the best being JW Struggle, which I enjoy visiting myself.
We can all unite and thank John Cedars for his hard work.
Thanks, John Cedars! You are a splendid chap.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Thank you both for your kind thoughts and John Cedar’s is also my hero for starting up this website and I sure wished I had had enough brains in my head when I was young to have figured it out. Hopefully we will see an end to this brutal religion before too many others have wasted the one and only precious life they will ever have. I feel as though they have killed me but I am still breathing. What it did for me was to have also killed my belief in God. I feel that the Watchtower is trying to take the place of God in all Witness’s brain and so many innocent people have fallen for it, hook line and sinker and why would God allow this?
I’ve found it interesting that the “society” always criticized the Catholic church for so many things and as the years have passed they are guilty of copying the same. I remember articles in the WT about how rich the Catholic church had become & how they discouraged their members from independent Bible reading. We were supposed to be different and more “noble-minded”. The “jury is out” on my beliefs, at this point. Just haven’t found any group that has made sense to me any more that the J-dubs do.
The answer to “why does God allow people to believe in this organization?” is not real different from “why does God allow e.g. child abuse?”. I.e. it does not mean God does not exist. It does not mean Jesus died in vain; it does not mean there were several witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection (just mentioning some things you might/can still believe that stand apart from watchtower). Hope that helps.
It is so blasphemous to lie in the name of Jehovah God to so many people to have them waste their lives for only what are men’s imperfect opinions on what the Bible says. I actually don’t think the Governing Body believe in the Bible because they twist the scriptures at will and according to 2nd Peter 3:16 if anyone twists the scriptures, it’s to their own destruction. We have always been taught that the preachers in the churches have no excuse for lying to their congregants because they should know what the Bible says, so to me, the Governing Body is even more reprehensible then the preachers in Christendom because at least “worldly” parents in those churches let their kids do fun things and to to college and take blood if they need it and don’t have to spend every last dime on the preaching work.
I don’t know if it’s that I don’t believe in God or not but the God in the Hebrew Scriptures to me was not a very nice God. I think Jesus Christ was perfect and everything from him was good. What I have always believed is that the Hebrew Scriptures was a written record of the Jews as imperfect as they were and like all nations on earth today, they thought that when they went into a city to kill all the men, women and children and save the “virgins”, they did it in the name of God, just like so many people do today, whether it be winning a football or baseball game or going to war. Everyone thinks God is on their side. That is what I think the Hebrew Scriptures are. I don’t believe that a loving God would do all the terrible things that are ascribed to Jehovah in the Hebrew Scriptures but if I were to tell that to anyone at the Kingdom Hall, I’d probably be brought in for apostasy because we are to only teach and believe that “all scripture is inspired of God.” Not being able to express my thoughts and being threatened with disfellowshipping for doing that, to me is evil and to me the Society is fit for destruction, just as 2nd Peter says.
The Essex Chronicle? Are you from Essex? I need to speak face to face with someone who is likeminded as I feel completely alone in my angry thoughts about the org. I was appalled at these two videos and agree they need to go viral. Disgusting treatment of those in need. no wonder there are so many suicides of jw’s. Would you consider meeting up?
Sorry that reply was for Rowland Nelken
I was born and grew up in Essex and my JW experience was at the Leigh on Sea Kingdom Hall. I left Essex, however, in 1967 and now live in Moscow. My sister still lives in Leigh.
She is in utter denial when I tell how awful JWdom is. Her partner, who has never been a JW, never read about them and refuses to listen to me on the subject, tells my sister ‘All religions are the same’. And she believes him; not me.
So you won’t get her to protest about JW moving their HQ to Essex.
I feel as though they have killed me but I am still breathing.
That’s exactly how I feel Bonnie.
Hi lovemylads.
A few days ago I ran across a video on youtube called Peter Gregerson – Is the Wathtower God’s Only Organization. I have listened to it 5 times now because it has helped mentally so very much. If you can, I’d encourage you to listen to that speech. If there was just some way to get our lives back that the Watchtower has robbed us of, but we can’t. The only thing we can do is hope for the end of it soon so nobody else has to suffer like we have and thousands upon thousands have and are still having to suffer because of it. Once that evil organization has been brought down, at least from then on, we can have some rest and peace of mind. My thoughts are with you.
I can’t believe that I’m still surprised by what this callous and pathetic organization publishes, but they still manage to catch me off guard. It’s as if they’re working there way down a checklist of how to turn people off to wanting to know their God.
The judicial committee video brought up memories of my own JC meeting when I was a 20 year old girl. I still feel violated thinking about the humiliation of sharing details of my first intimate experiences with 3 older men. I doubt we will ever see a training video with a young woman in the hotseat for “pornea”…that is not something they would ever put to film I’m sure. The cruel thing about the shepherding video to me is that they pretty much accuse this woman of spiritual weakness because she is grieving. Why does grief equate to that? She was at the meeting, came to the elders for help. That is not spiritual weakness. I am honestly shocked that there is no recommendation for professional help to a woman who has admitted to contemplating suicide. That is gross negligence. I can’t believe there was no comment made to this woman about how precious and valuable she is to them and the congregation, how her suicide would break their hearts because of their love for her. The whole shepherding call was so cold and rote. The weird thank you Jehovah at the end was unnerving….as if they had just cured this suicidal grief stricken woman of all her ills with some bizarre comparison to Job and a memorization homework assignment. Disgusting.