TV documentaries featuring members of other cults such as the Mormons (left) and Westboro Baptist Church (right) offer opportunities to help indoctrinated family members
TV documentaries featuring members of other cults such as the Mormons (left) and Westboro Baptist Church (right) offer opportunities to help indoctrinated family members

If there is one reoccurring question, one burning issue that most readers who write in to JWsurvey need addressing, it is simply this… “how do I wake up my loved one?”

Few things are more distressing than being reduced to a helpless bystander as a husband/wife, father/mother or son/daughter plunges deeper into an endless cycle of subservience to a damaging cult – a cult that sucks the best out of people in terms of time, money, energy and potential, simply so they can be exploited as unpaid publicity agents and walking billboards.

It was this very issue that I raised with cult expert Steven Hassan during my recent trip to London to attend a workshop on how to undo undue influence (or “mind control” as it was formerly referred to).

Staging an intervention with someone who has been caught off-guard by a cult a few weeks or months ago is one thing, but how can we help those who have been indoctrinated over many years, even decades? Steven’s answer was very insightful.

“Don’t start by talking about controversial stuff about the group that they’re in,” he told me (among other things). “Talk about other groups or other circumstances, because one commonality with all of these groups is that when you’re in a totalistic group you don’t think it is, but you can see other ones. It’s very obvious that there’s something wrong.”

Those of us who have spent years as indoctrinated Witnesses will immediately identify with this advice. When a Witness is confronted with negative information about the organization, the shutters immediately go down as cognitive dissonance goes into overdrive. No matter how relevant or accurate the information is, he or she simply is not receptive to it, because they are programmed to dismiss it as ‘apostate lies’.

But it’s a slightly different matter when it comes to pointing out the problems with other religions – something Watchtower publications have reveled in throughout the organization’s history. By exposing a loved one to other cult-like groups, and allowing them to draw conclusions by themselves, you are essentially opening up a back door that has already been left ajar by Watchtower propaganda, with its relentless condemnation of all other faiths.

With this in mind, I decided it was high time I put together a video and article to highlight examples of documentary films that are particularly excellent vehicles for initiating a neutral, non-confrontational dialogue (or “strategic interactive approach,” as Steven calls it) with an indoctrinated loved one. The first documentary I’d like to draw your attention to, released as recently as June this year, is about the Mormon faith.

If you are trying to watch this documentary from the UK, click here.

“Meet the Mormons” follows the story of Josh Fields (or “Elder Fields” as we are later required to call him) as he embarks on a two-year missionary tour in northern England. I found out about this film only after being asked to watch it by one of its producers, who was also in attendance at the London workshop.

But whereas most who have seen it will have found it enjoyable and entertaining, I found myself writhing in my seat in discomfort. Why? Because watching a young Mormon being initiated into cult servitude forced me to relive my own experiences as a young Jehovah’s Witness.

Yes, there were theological and doctrinal differences. Watchtower doesn’t teach that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri, or that God lives on a planet (or star) named Kolob, or that large underwear must be worn to preserve chastity, or that swimming is prohibited for missionaries.

But strip away all this doctrinal detritus, and you have the same cult machinery and undue influence methods whirring away underneath – albeit under different branding and with an alternative set of leaders at the helm.

If watching this revealing documentary was so painful for ME, even though I’ve been rid of my indoctrination for a few years now, I can only imagine how excruciating it would be for a Witness still inside. But that is precisely why they MUST watch it. The medicine may be tough to swallow, but exploring undue influence and its grip on people in “mirror” cults is medicine nonetheless.

The two other documentaries I wish to draw attention to (and I am sure there are many more) are by the acclaimed investigative journalist and film-maker Louis Theroux, who spent considerable time with the Phelps family (AKA the Westboro Baptist Church) back in 2006, and then again as a follow-up in 2011. I have already written about these documentaries during the period I was writing for JWstruggle back in 2011 (my “Troubling Comparison” articles can still be found here: Part 1 | Part 2).


The Most Hated Family In America by dm_504902730e928


BBC Louis Theroux_ America’s Most Hated Family… by singaporegeek

Essentially, as with “Meet the Mormons,” these two brilliant films offer a disturbing glimpse into the cult mindset, but without ever mentioning Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s all there in spades… shunning, black-and-white “us versus them” ideology, doomsday predictions, child indoctrination, totalitarian leadership, you name it – just all wrapped up in different packaging.

It’s never easy

I’m not suggesting for a moment that waking up family members who have been indoctrinated by Watchtower for most of their lives is a walk in the park. I have repeatedly said that you cannot flick a switch when it comes to untangling years of layered indoctrination, deception, and emotional coercion by a cult that has no qualms in using the memory of dead loved ones as currency via the resurrection “promise.”

Sadly, Watchtower’s patented brand of undue influence is so potent that some husbands/wives, fathers/mothers and sons/daughters will never wake up, and this can be a bitter pill to swallow. But that doesn’t mean those of us who are mentally free can’t give it our best shot to “strategically interact” with such ones as the opportunity presents itself.

And while it perhaps isn’t as straightforward as saying that exposing your loved one to other cults as a respectful comparison is guaranteed to reap dividends, it is certainly worth a shot.

 

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Further reading…

Related video…

143 thoughts on “Comparing cults – the most effective way to wake up a loved one?

  • September 23, 2014 at 6:03 am
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    Hi Excelsior. I don’t have a lot of hope but it could be a start. Thanks for the encouragement though.

  • September 23, 2014 at 8:18 am
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    The Westboro Baptist’s were so over the top it was laughable.,
    as Julie Atkinson says.. They seemed to be obsessed with
    Fags. Wether it was the U,S Government, soldiers, other churches,
    in fact everybody else but them, were all Fags.

    The traits of J,W,s, and other cults were unmissable. We are the
    the only ones saved, Everyone else is for the chop, Separation
    from “Bad Association” = ( Everybody ), Same Cloned mentality
    all parroting the same slogans ( Fags). ( Even the children joined in
    though not having a clue what it meant. )

    The Mormon article said the missionaries received about £29
    Approx,$47 weekly, for food and haircuts. This is 10 times less
    than the minimum wage in England. I think Bethel employees are
    payed even less. Only Religion can get get away with such
    scandalous exploitation.

  • September 23, 2014 at 9:17 am
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    Thank you for your amazing article, video and links – I’ve looked at or read almost all of them and the subject of mind control is truly fascinating. I’ve been out of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for 14 years but learned so much about how they control their members, and see that it’s not unique to them. We can all learn a lot from what each has gone through to help us on the road to healing from these cults.

  • September 23, 2014 at 9:36 am
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    He said Jehovah was from the Pleiades constellation.

    • September 23, 2014 at 10:49 am
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      Yeah, because at the time they thought the pleiades were the centre of the universe.

  • September 23, 2014 at 10:20 am
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    The documentary also said that each missionary is expected to contribute 6,000 pounds towards the overall costs so this “privilege” comes at great cost but Mormons also have a “good thing going” because they are also asked to contribute (tithe) 10% of their income to the church too. They also call that a “privilege”.

    It amazes me the power that the religions have over the followers by using the Bible to guilt so many into devoting their lives and money to them. In one respect the Bible is true when it says at 2 Cor. 11: 13-15 “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.”

  • September 23, 2014 at 7:07 pm
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    This is excellent advice, thanks John.

  • September 24, 2014 at 12:04 am
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    quite interesting, especially when you compare the behaviour of peoples as JWs and as ex JWs. mostly nothing changes in the mindsight

  • September 24, 2014 at 5:07 pm
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    I do hope that this works for some.
    I have found that JWs will still cling on to their ‘truth’, because they believe they are serving the ‘true God’ Jehovah, and do not consider themselves a ‘cult’.
    The possibility of removing the veil from their eyes is made very difficult when they have been influenced by the ‘angel of light’ who has blinded their minds to the real truth. It is my belief that even the Governing Body are unknowingly under his influence, if not, then they must have no conscience to continue with the lie.
    When one researches world events, religion of every kind, the music and entertainment industry, to name but a few, you come to realise that there is corruption and evil behind everything. Indeed, the whole world IS lying in the power of the wicked one.
    If you, like me, believe that this is true, then with all my heart I hope that there is a force for good which will one day put an end to all this mental torment and fear.
    I found that whilst I was under the influence of the WT they always applied the denunciations to other religions and the blessings on themselves. However, a study on the ‘wicked chieftain’ in Ezekiel 22, was thought provoking to say the least. I hope some of you may read this and come to the same conclusion as I did.

  • September 24, 2014 at 5:29 pm
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    Watching these documentaries is also so therapeutic for those leaving the Watchtower. We’re all the same, and somehow you never have the opportunity to allow yourself to think in that way. I was watching a documentary not too long ago, called “Sons of Perdition” about the FLDS church, it wasn’t really about the doctrines, as it was just a journey of several young people who made the choice to leave, they chose what they believed in, and lost their families in doing so. It was so heartbreaking, but in the end, you see that they are okay. They will survive, and are thriving. I was thinking while I was watching, if someone is shunning any family members, it is probably so difficult, because they love them still, but suggesting watching something that focuses on having to choose these men over your family, it might make it easier for the witness family members to be able to cope with shunning, like the “you are not alone” approach , other religions also use shunning. As a parent, when you see 14 or 15 year olds making the decisions to leave, and their families reject them because of the church, and these kids don’t have any support or anyone to take care of them, it truly breaks your heart. A witness could watch it, because it could make them feel like other people are experiencing the same thing, and that could be comforting, but maybe it would make your heart break for the kids, seeing them alone out there.

  • September 25, 2014 at 3:14 am
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    Bad Penny,

    As this “evil one” is invisible, I cannot prove that he doesn’t exist. You cannot prove a negative.

    I apply Occam’s Razor to issues of this kind. The assumption that all evil is because of Satan and his (also invisible) demons is a possibility, but it is much more likely that it is human beings who carry out “evil”. On the other hand, it is human beings that carry out “good”.

    I do not believe that the governing body are deluded at all. They know what they are doing and they do it consciously.
    “When one researches world events, religion of every kind, the music and entertainment industry, to name but a few, you come to realise that there is corruption and evil behind everything. Indeed, the whole world IS lying in the power of the wicked one.”

    I disagree. The world is not in the power of a wicked one or a righteous one. These are judgement calls on behaviours that can be readily explained in terms of evolution.

    Sharing is an evolutionary survival tactic, just as stealing is. I do not believe that there is evil behind everything. What about the many, many charities that carry out excellent work? What about the modern concept of human rights? What about all the many, many good people out there?

    With the greatest of respect, viewing the world as evil will not bring you to any form of truth.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • September 25, 2014 at 5:01 am
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    Bad Penny,

    Do you have any evidence that: “there is evil and corruption behind everything” caused by invisible spirit creatures?

    There are perfectly rational explanations for “evil” and “good” that rely on natural selection as their source.

    Good and evil behaviours are solutions to keep on surviving. So, on one extreme we have parasites and on the other we have co-operation. They are all viable ways to survive.

    As human beings we have a choice. We can choose to be parasitical or we can co operate.

    Blaming unproven, invisible spirit creatures for human actions is problematic. We do not take responsibility for our evil, because it is the Devil’s fault and we deny our better selves and say that any good is not from inside us either.

    I do not believe that the world is evil, I do not believe that the world is good. The world exists as a complicated system, with countless discrete actions contributing to the whole.

    It is healthy for us to consider alternative views to explain events. This is the purpose of this post.

    There may well be A God and Satan, but there may well not be either.

    Peace be with you

    Exclesior!

  • September 25, 2014 at 5:10 am
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    Oops! Double post!

    Bad Penny, sorry to single you out. I don’t expect you to have all the answers. Sorry about that.

    I simply want those with faith to challenge their faith. It’s healthy to consider alternative explanations. I’m not saying I’m right and you guys are wrong.

    I’d better stop now, before I go far too far off topic for even me to contemplate.

    I respect all folks who post here, and I do not want to upset anyone.

    I salute everyone who posts here, because you have all taken time out of your lives to help others still trapped in the WTBTS. Good for you, dear folks! You have proven yourselves to be compassionate and decent, and whether we have faith or not, we can and will work together to bring justice and freedom to those who are still under the cruel dominion of the WTBTS.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • September 25, 2014 at 6:09 am
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    @Bad Penny. I enjoyed your comment and I too have seen a lot of documentaries and see that there seems to be a lot of what seems like “evil” all around us, especially in the entertainment industry.

    There are a lot of “paranormal” shows on television and whether these are “spirit” creatures or not, I couldn’t tell you because those kind of shows scare me too much to watch them.

    But I truly believe there are a lot of “evil” people who wield tremendous power over weak and naive people and take advantage of them by using their need for God. I think some of these people really are “certified and do have a “God” complex such as what I talked about in another article about A.J. Miller (Sunday night – Inside Australia’s Chilling New Cult Youtube video) and maybe the Mormon Church leaders fit that category and maybe even the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses fit that category and then there’s another category of people who are true sociopaths in that they aren’t certified crazy with a “God complex” but they know how to “control” the weak and use them for their own selfish gain. Those people are all over the place too. That’s how I’d describe evil (without having been eye witness to actual paranormal events myself). Either they have crazy “God” complexes in which case they can influence weak individuals into thinking that they really are “God like and get special insights from God” or they deliberately exploit the weak and naive’ for their own selfish gain.

    There was an article in the Watchtower a while back that implied that the reason the “remnant of anointed” is growing in number instead of decreasing in number is because these other so-called anointed (other than themselves of course) is because those “other” anointed might be crazy. But what about them? Just because they were pioneers, does that make them any less “crazy” than the other 12,000???? I think if those other 12,000 might be crazy to think they were appointed as kings over the entire earth when they die, why shouldn’t that same craziness also apply to them?

    What would be hilarious to me is if at next year’s memorial, there was not a single one of those 12,000 who drank the wine and ate the bread. How would the Watchtower handle that?????

  • September 25, 2014 at 10:32 am
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    In relation to Jehovah’s witnesses. John Lennon working class hero.

  • September 25, 2014 at 11:29 am
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    To the austintatious araldite Watchtower You so proud of your young people.

  • September 25, 2014 at 11:33 am
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    I’m a bit thick.

  • September 25, 2014 at 11:46 am
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    If Watchtower, the slave has not been appointed yet, why do you describe yourself as faithful ? Does the Judgement not start with God’s house and if it does you will be found faithful? You’ve never beaten nobody have you or taught what was false?

  • September 25, 2014 at 11:56 am
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    Now tell these people their liars.

  • September 25, 2014 at 11:59 am
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    An apology please.

  • September 25, 2014 at 12:04 pm
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    Or you are a bunch of spiritual cowards who dominate the nobodies. He who is first e.t.c

  • September 25, 2014 at 3:51 pm
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    Excelsior –
    I thought I might light a few fires with this comment! I didn’t actually mention ‘invisible spirit creatures’ in my comment. I did use the biblical expression ‘angel of light’ and the ‘wicked one’ however – just a small point.
    Whilst I appreciate that some people believe that evil and good exist within everyone, the important thing is whether your CONSCIENCE (this amazing thing within our psyche that differentiates us from any other creature) allows you to be influenced by one or the other. When I said there was ‘corruption and evil behind everything’, I was alluding to the powers that be in this world, whether these are religious or not, who allow themselves to be influenced by evil, ones who DO believe in the devil and are happy to serve him.

    Sorry, Excelsior, cults and others who use mind control to take over the lives of others, for their own benefit are downright evil. Their actions are not beneficial to those who have been influenced by them, in fact they are destructive. This is not in line with evolutionist theory, which should promote the advancement of mankind not his degeneration. I therefore must conclude that this destructive force has to come from somewhere beyond mere human thinking.
    I respect the fact that we will not all agree.

    anonymous – thanks for feedback. Re your comment on memorial, what would be even more hilarious would be if everyone present decided to take the emblems. Now that would really baffle them! The sad thing is that the r and f don’t realise that they have been pushing Christ’s ransom sacrifice away from them all these years. So sad.
    Now back to topic!!! Cheers!

  • September 26, 2014 at 5:04 am
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    Having left the JWs almost fifty years ago, I firmly believe it was hearing the gospel message about the true Jesus Christ that worked for me. Truth will always overcome error just as light overcomes darkness. I agree with the main tenor of the article but remember this is a spiritual battle.

  • September 26, 2014 at 7:23 am
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    hi i admit i have problems i am trying to be a normal member of a cong in scarborough uk my wife loves the truth but i fell out in 2003 due to total uninterest in us and my wifes bi polar disorder ,friends became distant and i struggled to bring up our 2 young lads , now im on the floor after trying again and again to be a good man , what now ?
    we aRE IN a new cong but my heart is not in it im alcoholic and im scared what will happen im trying to deal with it but im failing miserably any input would be great thanbks lee

  • September 26, 2014 at 7:26 am
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    i understand that i have been abusive in the past but lease understand my situation and i am sorry thanks lee
    #

    • September 26, 2014 at 8:25 am
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      Hi Lee, it’s good that you’re trying to reach out. That’s one hard step that you’ve taken. What are you scared about?

      As far as the alcohol goes, you best contact a professional that can help you stabilize your life. This is hard. What I’ve heard is that alcoholics have to remove every bottle of alcohol from their homes, and not drink one drop anymore ever.

      Please feel free to share your thoughts. Take care!

  • September 26, 2014 at 11:27 am
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    Lee, It takes a humble person to openly admit to problems.

    I agree with Gareth, that is the hardest step.

    You needn’t be so hard on yourself Lee, all of us have done things that we later come to regret. None of your past matters any more. None of us here will ever judge you, we accept each other just as we are. The only judge I will ever face is Jesus Christ.

    I can feel how much pain you are in and would take that pain away if I could. By you going through that pain, you can come out on the other side a stronger person. Experiencing pain helps us to value and appreciate joy.

    I know you are dealing with so many different stresses right now, but I believe that in time, you will come to find the answers you are looking for. They are in you Lee, you will have to do some emotional work to find them, but all the answers are inside you.

    Emotional work is very draining and exhausting, so just focus on the basics right now. Put one foot in front of the other and take care of yourself and your young sons, and your wife. Eat regularly and as healthy as you can, drink a lot of water to keep you hydrated and get plenty of rest.

    You cannot fix everything that is broken all at once. So be patient with yourself.

    Have faith in yourself that you will make it through these problems. I have found that things are never quite as bad as I thought at first. Keep a spark of hope alive inside yourself.

    Continue to come here and share whatever you feel comfortable with. We do care about you as our dear brother and your precious family.

    With much sisterly love

  • September 27, 2014 at 3:41 am
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    ricki steel,

    Welcome to JW Survey and thank you for your post.

    Firstly, I would advise that you see your GP as soon as possible regarding your bi polar disorder. Are you on medication for this serious condition?

    Your GP can also refer you for help with your alcohol dependence. I know what that is like and I can assure you that there is a path through this. I managed it and so can you with the correct professional help.

    You say that you have been abusive. I don’t know what type of abuse you are referring to, but you have taken the first step in acknowledging that it is wrong and you are sorry for what you did. Well done and I would advise professional counselling for this.

    This is the key, sir. Do not rely on spiritual healing alone. Seek professional help for your problems and by all means supplement this with spiritual help.

    There is a path through for you, there really is. Seek professional help, initially by visiting your GP, who can refer you to those best placed to help you.

    We are all here to help, too.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • September 27, 2014 at 4:08 am
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    testing. Testing. Comments are not coming through?

  • September 27, 2014 at 4:13 am
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    Ricki

    Seek professional help and counseling. You can and will come through this. Maybe for now just try to help yourself and then you will be in a better postion to help your children. Millions of people overcome the same issues you have. Just bc we make mistakes does not mean we are bad people. We won’t Shun you here Ricki.There 10 step programs and family counseling that can help. The only thing the WT will do for you is have another Bible Study using heir books!

  • September 27, 2014 at 9:43 am
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    This might be an off topic subject but I wanted to share. There are 4 excellent youtube videos that are almost impossible to find if you just go to Youtube. They are interviews with Dr. M. James Penton who is the author of Apocalypse Delayed. This is how I got to those videos:

    In the top of your address bar, type in Dr. M. James Penton: Conversations.

    These videos have just a few hundred views and they are some of the best videos you will listen to and deserve thousands of views.

  • September 28, 2014 at 3:42 am
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    On Friday night here (Sept. 26) in the States, 20-20 ran a show about how two twelve year old girls tried to stab their best friend to death so they could appease a cult figure called “slimmer” man, they thought was real, they had “met” online. The two failed because the little girl was able to crawl out of the woods and was found before she died and was able to tell the authorities what the two who she thought were her “best” friends had done to her.

    20-20 went to the girl’s classroom and interviewed the classmates and all of those kids knew about this “cult” figure and none of the parents knew about it. Some of the kids believed this cult figure to be real, just as the two that tried to kill their friend believed this cult figure to be real.

    It goes to show how much power some of these cult figures have over the minds of other gullible people, so that when told, they will even kill their best friends to appease the cult figure. It is sobering, to say the least.

    I believe the Society has that kind of power over it’s followers so that “yes” they’d take the pill and these unthinking people don’t have the power to say “no” to shunning even their best friends and relatives, no matter how cruel it is.

    The Society is to me the same as the “slimmer” man that these girls were following and decided to kill their best friend because he told them to do it. The Governing Body are no different than any other religious cult that in the name of God, tell their followers that it’s okay to kill themselves, running planes into buildings and God will reward them in heaven. They possess the same kind of power over it’s followers.

  • September 28, 2014 at 3:47 am
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    I should add that the little girl lived.

  • September 28, 2014 at 12:57 pm
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    Tony, I don’t think you have a full appreciation of what this web site means.

    Yes Cedars runs it, but he is not our “Elder” We are not his followers. None of us worship him. We accept him as the man we have come to know. He is married and has a wife, a new baby, a job, he voluntarily takes on the responsibility of making YouTube videos and running this website AND tracking down information the governing body does not want anyone to have. He is someone who exposes the facts about Watchtower.

    Each of us has our own belief system, and we respect that we are all free to choose whatever we want to believe. I’m not even sure you could find two people on here who are at the very same place on our individual journey of understanding our truth.

    Cedars is an “expert”. He chose to have this website. He is entitled to his own opinion. He does not force any of us to believe the way he does. What makes him an expert on “undue influence” is hearing from his diversified readers. He hears our stories, our pain, our depression, our thoughts of suicide, our confusion, our loss, our treatment by our own family, our anger, our bitterness, our fears, our hopes, our courage, our strength, our determination. He hears it all and THAT is what makes him an expert on what “undue influence” can do to a human being. You don’t need to have a PHD to become an expert at something.

    If this site were all about John Cedars and his “blowing his own trumpet”; or “his desire for recognition” as you claim, I don’t think many of us would be here.

    We all do hold one thing in common, our lives have been disrupted by the watchtower organization which is run by the governing body. We are not all haters of them. We are not all fault finding, though I can see how an apologist might view it that way.

    For so many years, we were kept in the dark about the history and goings-on of the Watchtower. In hindsight, we were brainwashed into believing in an evil cult. Now that we are out, or on our way out, we can see how blinded we have been. Decades of our lives for some of us. Time that we can never get back. And all because of a man-made, self-appointed earthly organization who claims to be in communication with God!

    Can you not see how traumatic an event it was to come to realize we had been living in a prison of our own making?

    Tony, you are certainly welcome to your own opinion. But that does not give you the right to make a personal attack and cast aspersions on John Cedars’ personal character or his motives for maintaining this web site, nor his motives for writing a book. Just as we don’t have to answer to anyone, he does not have to answer to you or any of us. Even you do not have to make an answer to anyone.

    We come here of our own choosing because we want to. We have different reasons for coming. For most, it is for information. We get to have our own input as to how we feel about the on-going revelations of truth about the watchtower and governing body. We get to hear from our brothers and sisters. We get to show love and support for one another. We get to ask for help. We get to encourage each other. We get to say what is in our hearts without the fear of being judged for it, or being shunned for saying it.

    A lot of us have family that is still inside that cult. Family ties do not disappear just because the governing body says we are dead and that Jehovah God killed us. Those ties will forever bind us to our family.

    Where is your humanity Tony? Do you not have any compassion for all that we have lost? And for how much we have suffered? Have you never lost someone you loved and felt the pain and anguish that results from that loss?

    You may say he is “making it his life’s work to ‘expose’ every supposed wrongdoing of the organisation-and then in the most mean-spirited fashion possible”.

    We here, call it truth. Yes the truth can hurt sometimes and even sound mean, but it is still the truth. I suspect that hearing the truth is painful for you.

    I pray that one day your pain will be healed, that your eyes will be opened and that your heart may become receptive so that you can accept the truth about the truth.

  • September 28, 2014 at 12:58 pm
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    I don’t think you have a full appreciation of what this web site means Tony.

    Yes Cedars runs it, but he is not our “Elder” We are not his followers. None of us worship him. We accept him as the man we have come to know. He is married and has a wife, a new baby, a job, he voluntarily takes on the responsibility of making YouTube videos and running this website AND tracking down information the governing body does not want anyone to have. He is someone who exposes the facts about Watchtower.

    Each of us has our own belief system, and we respect that we are all free to choose whatever we want to believe. I’m not even sure you could find two people on here who are at the very same place on our individual journey of understanding our truth.

    Cedars is an “expert”. He chose to have this website. He is entitled to his own opinion. He does not force any of us to believe the way he does. What makes him an expert on “undue influence” is hearing from his diversified readers. He hears our stories, our pain, our depression, our thoughts of suicide, our confusion, our loss, our treatment by our own family, our anger, our bitterness, our fears, our hopes, our courage, our strength, our determination. He hears it all and THAT is what makes him an expert on what “undue influence” can do to a human being. You don’t need to have a PHD to become an expert at something.

    If this site were all about John Cedars and his “blowing his own trumpet”; or “his desire for recognition” as you claim, I don’t think many of us would be here.

    We all do hold one thing in common, our lives have been disrupted by the watchtower organization which is run by the governing body. We are not all haters of them. We are not all fault finding, though I can see how an apologist might view it that way.

    For so many years, we were kept in the dark about the history and goings-on of the Watchtower. In hindsight, we were brainwashed into believing in an evil cult. Now that we are out, or on our way out, we can see how blinded we have been. Decades of our lives for some of us. Time that we can never get back. And all because of a man-made, self-appointed earthly organization who claims to be in communication with God!

    Can you not see how traumatic an event it was to come to realize we had been living in a prison of our own making?

    Tony, you are certainly welcome to your own opinion. But that does not give you the right to make a personal attack and cast aspersions on John Cedars’ personal character or his motives for maintaining this web site, nor his motives for writing a book. Just as we don’t have to answer to anyone, he does not have to answer to you or any of us. Even you do not have to make an answer to anyone.

    We come here of our own choosing because we want to. We have different reasons for coming. For most, it is for information. We get to have our own input as to how we feel about the on-going revelations of truth about the watchtower and governing body. We get to hear from our brothers and sisters. We get to show love and support for one another. We get to ask for help. We get to encourage each other. We get to say what is in our hearts without the fear of being judged for it, or being shunned for saying it.

    A lot of us have family that is still inside that cult. Family ties do not disappear just because the governing body says we are dead and that Jehovah God killed us. Those ties will forever bind us to our family.

    Where is your humanity Tony? Do you not have any compassion for all that we have lost? And for how much we have suffered? Have you never lost someone you loved and felt the pain and anguish that results from that loss?

    You may say he is “making it his life’s work to ‘expose’ every supposed wrongdoing of the organisation-and then in the most mean-spirited fashion possible”.

    We here, call it truth. Yes the truth can hurt sometimes and even sound mean, but it is still the truth. I suspect that hearing the truth is painful for you.

    I pray that one day your pain will be healed, that your eyes will be opened and that your heart may become receptive so that you can accept the truth about the truth.

  • September 28, 2014 at 11:30 pm
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    @Imacountrygirl2

    Who is Tony? Did I miss something? Read your comment and wondered what had been said. Searched the thread and found no one named Tony. Perhaps they were deleted. Just curious of what I missed.

    • September 28, 2014 at 11:39 pm
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      Hi tiger123 – I had a troll calling himself Tony try to post a personal attack on my Undue Influence video on YouTube. When I deleted his comment and blocked him from my channel, he headed straight for JWsurvey and did a copy-paste into a random article. I deleted his comment and blocked him, but Imacountrygirl2 saw the comment and decided to post a rebuttal in my defense. For the record, I am happy to engage with Watchtower apologists so long as they are civil and open to mature dialogue and the exchange of ideas and questions. But personal attacks I simply have no time for, and I will delete them whether they are about me or anyone else.

      • September 29, 2014 at 12:02 am
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        Thanks for the response. I know that you give everyone a chance to state their position and certainly understand the reasoning behind deleting those types of comments.

        I would not have been so curious, but my first name is Tony and noticed that someone on here and another site used a sign in like mine “tiger123” and posted comments. It concerned me when that happened but the comments although different than my views if I recall correctly were not rude so I said nothing.

        Now that someone is using the name Tony and bringing it in to negative light, I would like to say from one Tony to another “Tony” if that is in fact their real name. Please pick another name before you post ignorance and personal attacks.

        Warm Regards to Imacountrygirl, Cedars and everyone else

  • September 29, 2014 at 8:58 am
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    So called “apostates” who speak out against W,T,
    harmful doctrines, and practices, Are labelled as
    “Bitter” people with an axe to grind.

    Name calling, impugning a persons character is a
    tactic used by propagandists when unable to
    address the issues.

    If exposing hypocrisy, exploitation for financial
    gain, imposing unnecessary and burdensome
    rules, etc, is to be classed as “Bitterness”,
    Then Jesus was the most bitter, vindictive,
    spiteful, person in history.

  • September 29, 2014 at 9:14 am
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    @ Ted

    Lol, I am going to quote that exactly. Nicely said!

  • September 29, 2014 at 11:25 am
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    In fairness to Mr Cedars, I don’t think he would refer to himself as an expert. Whilst nobody would deny his tireless campaigning and knowledge of the Society, i’m sure he would be a little embarrassed at being called an expert. As far as I know, he doesn’t claim to be an academic or have any specialised skills.

    I would have liked to have seen the post that you are talking about. If this ‘Tony’ character was referring to Cedars as an ‘elder’ it sounds like he was scraping the barrel for insults.

    I also wonder if he would have dared to have accepted ‘Cedars Challenge’. I doubt it. As for the charge that John is looking for recognition, so what if he is? If it’s a good cause and he gets a bit of kudos, fair play to him! Same with his book. If it makes him a few quid and entertains and enlightens people, what’s wrong with that? We’ve all got to make a living somehow.

    Sounds like a lot of bitterness to me.

  • September 29, 2014 at 11:31 am
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    For: imacountrygirl2

    In fairness to Mr Cedars, I don’t think he would refer to himself as an expert. Whilst nobody would deny his tireless campaigning and knowledge of the Society, i’m sure he would be a little embarrassed at being called an expert. As far as I know, he doesn’t claim to be an academic or have any specialised skills.

    I would have liked to have seen the post that you are talking about. If this ‘Tony’ character was referring to Cedars as an ‘elder’ it sounds like he was scraping the barrel for insults.

    I also wonder if he would have dared to have accepted ‘Cedars Challenge’. I doubt it. As for the charge that John is looking for recognition, so what if he is? If it’s a good cause and he gets a bit of kudos, fair play to him! Same with his book. If it makes him a few quid and entertains and enlightens people, what’s wrong with that? We’ve all got to make a living somehow.

    Sounds like a lot of bitterness to me.

  • September 29, 2014 at 12:53 pm
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    outandhappy, I love your name!!!

    The person who called himself “Tony” was a disturbed, intelligent, well-spoken person with a lot on his mind.

    I responded to this statement he made: “I note that the blurb for the undue influence ‘conference’ has Mr Cedars described as an ‘expert’.”

    I do consider Cedars an expert at knowing first hand just how “undue influence” can affect a person’s life. He went through the process himself, and he can bear witness to all of us on this blog who have expressed how the “undue influence” of the gb/watchtower has affected our lives.

    You can make yourself an expert at something if you are willing to spend the time and energy investigating, researching, staying current, listening to first hand accounts, and knowing your subject inside and out.

    True, he may never hold a piece of paper that says he is an expert, but I think his particular circumstances have made him one. I would choose him to be an expert on the subject of “undue influence” on my/our behalf any time.

    I did copy “Tony’s” comment, but I am not re-posting it out of respect for Cedars decision to remove it.

    I regret that this topic got side-tracked. If anyone has had an experience reaching a loved one still in the cult by using a documentary on a “REAL” cult, without exerting undue influence on them, I would love to hear about it and how your loved one responded.

    This is an extremely important topic for all of us, which has great potential to help someone we love escape the clutches of the gb. It won’t help me right now because my siblings have absolutely no contact with me. But it will be good for me to have a strategy in place should I ever get a chance to talk to a JW.

    • September 29, 2014 at 1:10 pm
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      testing. Testing.

      • September 29, 2014 at 1:39 pm
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        Well at least Cedars did not “SELF APPOINT” himself as the GB does as the faithful and discreet Salve?
        Others called him an EXPERT. In many ways he is an expert in this category just the same as many JW’s are experts in knowing how the WT deals with the flock and also how they FLIP FLOP on their teachings.

  • September 30, 2014 at 11:14 pm
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    As many of you know, a guy calling himself “Tony” tried posting a personal attack against me on this page a couple of days ago.

    With nothing meaningful to say in defense of Watchtower, it seems his only option was to conduct a character assassination and call my motives into question. I had already blocked him on YouTube before he tried a copy-paste onto this comments section.

    Since I’ve blocked him, he has popped up on numerous other Ex-JW websites trying to post the exact same comment, where he has also been blocked.

    Last night he returned to JWsurvey (under the username “expose&enlighten”) and re-posted his comment by using a different “hushmail” email address and IP address. It seems his obsession is with attacking me personally rather than refuting my arguments.

    For the record, I am perfectly willing to go toe-to-toe with any sincere self-styled Watchtower defender in a bilateral, honest exchange of thoughts, opinions and logic-based reasoning.

    It is for this very reason that I launched the “Cedars Challenge,” which thus far remains unanswered. But I won’t tolerate personal attacks on me or any other contributor or poster to this website. Apart from anything else, I have more meaningful things to do with my time than get bogged down with self-appointed Watchtower vigilantes who are terrified of giving their real names for risk of being spanked by their elders, and whose only means of rebuttal is adhominem and name-calling.

    To such ones I say: find a more productive way of using what little time you have left before “Armageddon” strikes, and if your raging cognitive dissonance does cause you to lash out, at least do it in a coherent manner that is based on my arguments, not on my perceived motives.

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