Jehovah’s Witnesses have long pointed the finger at other religions for being hierarchical, but what does a close examination of their own organization reveal?

As a young boy growing up in the Witness faith, I was taught to think of my religion as an organization with a level playing field, where everyone enjoyed an equal standing before God. Whenever photos were published of the Governing Body, it was always pointed out how approachable and “grandfatherly” they appeared – as though you could walk up to any member and ask him anything!

It was the same with elders, Circuit Overseers and District Overseers. Sure, these men all had lofty titles, but when it all boiled down to it, they were supposed to be no different from ordinary publishers – just with slightly different privileges of service.

As I grew up and began to see different facets of the organization in closer detail, it gradually became obvious that true equality among the brothers was something that existed in theory rather than in practice. A typical example of this could be seen during the twice-yearly Circuit Overseer’s visit, with all the hype and furore surrounding the arrival of a single man and his wife. I could see brothers and sisters bending over backwards to impress this supposedly humble representative of the Society – putting on elaborate dinners for him, taking him on their most impressive calls and bible studies, laughing at his awful jokes, and generally acting all prim and proper whenever in his presence.

Even as an indoctrinated publisher I could see that certain brothers are venerated over others

Even so, regardless of the fact that I saw little practical evidence of true equality among the brothers, I generally accepted the idea that all Witnesses are equal – and that there is no “hierarchy” in our faith. In fact, this wasn’t just an idea circulated among publishers – it was a core concept that was actively promoted in our publications. Other religions may operate a “hierarchical structure,” but not Jehovah’s cleansed people! We are different from false religion. Hierarchical religions, most notably the Catholic Church, are to be vilified and exposed for their “worldly” organizational politics.

To demonstrate, consider the following quotes from the Society’s publications over the decades, each of which denounce the concept of a hierarchical religious structure, or describe it in disapproving terms…

“In contrast with many religious groups in Christendom, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not decide for themselves the form of spiritual government under which they operate. These sincere Christians endeavor to stick to Jehovah’s standards. Overseers among them are not put into office by some congregational, hierarchical, or presbyterian form of church government.” (w01 1/15 p13)

“Sadly, over the centuries this elevated, selfless concept of ministers as self-sacrificing preachers and teachers was distorted. What began as the Christian ministry evolved into a formal, hierarchical institution. Orders and ranks were formed, and they were invested with prestige and power and often accumulated great wealth. This created divisions.” (g00 7/8 p27)

“There was the question of who should serve as elders and deacons in the congregations. To get away from the hierarchical structure prevalent in Christendom, it was concluded that these should be elected democratically by the vote of the members of each congregation.” (w95 5/15 p22)

“As time went by, the number of those claiming to be Christians rose to the millions and then to the hundreds of millions. They developed different kinds of church government, such as hierarchical, presbyterian, and congregational. However, neither the conduct nor the beliefs of these churches reflected the rulership of Jehovah. They were not theocracies!” (w94 1/15 p14)

“Especially since 1919, the enthroned King Jesus Christ has developed a fine condition amid his followers on earth. He has placed among them ‘princes’ (Hebrew, sarim) who do indeed furnish just and loving oversight. In contrast with the oppressive and self-serving rulers so general throughout the world, the King in God’s organization has raised up responsible men who are not revered as hierarchical ‘princes of the church,’ or the like.” (w84 5/15 p16)

“This fading of Christian watchfulness prompted apostate Christians to organize themselves into a well-structured church whose eyes were no longer fixed on the coming parousia, or presence, of Christ but, rather, on dominating its members and, if possible, the world. The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: ‘The [apparent] delay of the Parousia resulted in a weakening of the imminent expectation in the early church. In this process of ‘de-eschatologizing,’ [weakening of the teaching on the ‘Last Things’] the institutional church increasingly replaced the expected Kingdom of God. The formation of the Catholic Church as a hierarchical institution is directly connected with the declining of the imminent expectation.” (w84 12/1 p6)

“In the latter part of the 19th century, the Bible Students had a democratic way of governing their congregations; they wanted to get away from an autocratic hierarchical system.” (w81 12/1 p25)

“One’s qualifying as an ‘elder’ or ‘overseer’ was not a matter of ascending a hierarchical ladder, starting with the lowest rung. Catholic theologian Legrand writes: ‘The ordained ministry is not a cursus honorum [race for honors] to be run like climbing the rungs of a hierarchical ladder. In fact, the word hierarchy is not to be found in the Bible.'” (g76 9/8 p27)

“The above-mentioned Thascius Caecilius Cyprian was the bishop of the church in Carthage, Africa. He was born about 200 C.E. and died in 258 C.E. He was a clergyman, called here ‘the father of the hierarchical system,’ one of the body of clergy that existed not much more than a century after the death of Christ’s apostles and their close associates. From that time on, throughout the ‘Dark Ages,’ into the time of the Reformation and the beginning of the Protestant Churches, and down to the present, this clergy-laity distinction has existed in Christendom.” (w75 4/1 p202)

“What wonder, then, that intelligent persons of today who are informed on the kind of rule that prevailed during the time of the popish ‘theocracy’ cannot stomach the thought of God’s rule being about to come, if God’s rule means the restoration of such a hierarchical rule!” (w68 10/15 p618)

“Who, then, is doing the discipling work today? There can be no doubt of this. It is the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. The revival of the work of making disciples is to be found in that organization in these last days. They have freed themselves from the constricting creeds and contaminating false doctrines of the nominal churches. They have freed themselves from the hierarchical, congregational and all other forms of church rule that are unscriptural and they are governed by theocratic rule.” (w66 4/1 p205)

“Interesting is the fact that, though forced to meet underground, those primitive Christians by no means kept their light hidden there. As Christ had commanded, they lifted it high on ‘lampstands’ by a work of public testimony. Though this drew the infuriated malice of many, it introduced untold hope to others who proceeded to associate with the Christian community. Charles Maitland, in The Church in the Catacombs, singles out this proselytizing nature of the Christians as the greatest aggravating factor of their persecution, because of which other charges were trumped up by the authorities. Their harmlessness can be seen in that for the mere reason of secretly celebrating the Lord’s Supper they suffered an official ban. From what can be told by the ancient inscriptions those Christians scorned the hierarchical structure which papal Rome copied from pagan Rome.” (w51 8/15 p486)

“With such a breadth of meaning and variety of application of the Hebrew word sar we can appreciate how the heavenly King reigning in righteousness could have his visible servants on the earth during this perilous time and how these would occupy the position corresponding with what Isaiah 32:1 speaks of as princes (sarím). They would not hold such princely office inside the political systems of this world, because, although they are in the world, they are no part of the world. Neither would they have any such combined political, hierarchical offices such as the higher clergy of the Roman Catholic religious system hold, so that they are called ‘princes of the church.'” (w51 12/1 p721)

As can be clearly seen from the above quotes, the hierarchical structure long-ago adopted by the Catholic Church has been routinely denounced by the Society as unscriptural, autocratic, divisive and prone to encouraging corruption.

But what is a hierarchy? One definition describes it as: “an organizational structure where every entity in the organization, except one, is subordinate to a single other entity. This arrangement is a form of a hierarchy.” This unmistakably describes the Catholic Church, with the Pope at the top – answerable to no one. Certainly in all my years growing up in the organization I never thought of it as a fair way of describing the organizational structure of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After all, we are God’s true organization, and therefore unique from all other religions! We have Christ as our leader, and we receive instruction from God’s holy spirit through the Faithful Slave and its representative Governing Body!

Reality sinks in

Then in 2011 I woke up and was finally able to see the organization for what it truly is – just one of many hierarchical Christian denominations claiming to have the sole backing of God. Once I learned to reason for myself, I could plainly see that there was absolutely no relationship between the Faithful and Discreet Slave class (those claiming to be anointed) and the Governing Body, who claimed to humbly serve as their representatives. In reality, it was the small number of men on the Governing Body who were pulling all the strings, without conferring with anyone else. The Faithful Slave teaching was just their “cover story.”

By revealing their “new light” about the faithful slave, the Governing Body has awarded itself Pope-like status

Then, in October last year (2012), things took an unexpected twist. The Governing Body ditched the idea that all anointed ones make up the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and declared that only they could be so identified. In making this change, many would argue that they were only acknowledging what was already widely recognized – that the Governing Body are the only ones dispensing “spiritual food,” and have been for some time. Ordinary anointed ones have never really had any say in what is published in the literature.

Though somewhat predictable, for myself and many like-minded individuals this change was profound. The Society had, without great fanfare, neatly removed the last distinction between themselves and other hierarchical religions such as the Catholic Church. Previously, they had hidden behind the Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine as an excuse to wield power. Now it was surplus to requirements. They declared themselves to be God’s sole channel, giving themselves Pope-like authority in the process.

The changes start to take effect

And it wasn’t long before this authority started to be drilled home unmistakably in our literature. Take a look at this recent illustration from the April 13th Watchtower on page 29…

It doesn’t take a genius to see what is being depicted in this illustration. This is a clear and unambiguous example of a hierarchy – right down to the numbering of the various groups or positions. It is a list of the various operational elements of the Watch Tower Society in a descending order of importance. When you look closely, you notice that even the chairs are more comfortable the higher up the ladder you happen to be! Governing Body members get plush leather executive chairs, while branch office members must make do with plain office swivel chairs. If you are an elder, you can consider yourself lucky to get a school canteen chair! Evidently the more privileged you are in God’s organization, the more seat padding you require.

The Governing Body is now so comfortable with its authority that it sees nothing inappropriate about identifying the individual members on an organizational chart

But there are other things that are noticeable about this illustration on close inspection. You notice that the current Governing Body members have vainly had their likenesses depicted in the illustration so that, when you look closely enough, they are individually recognizable.

Perhaps of most striking significance is the one notable absentee from the illustration – Jesus Christ. True, the Society would likely argue that this is a picture depicting the earthly part of God’s organization, and Christ is in the heavenly part. Even so, this hasn’t stopped the Society from depicting Jehovah on his heavenly chariot in the same illustration. Even some of the angels are present. So why no Jesus? Especially if he is supposed to be “head of the congregation?” (Eph. 5:23)

The answer is simple. Christ plays no role whatsoever in this organization and never actually has. His absence from this illustration may well be an oversight, but it is a telling one. The Governing Body is well and truly in charge, and they want us to know it. They take their orders from nobody but themselves. In this way, they are really no different from the Pope. In fact, take a look at this diagram I have prepared, which I believe demonstrates quite clearly that the hierarchical structures of the Catholic Church and Watch Tower Society are now eerily similar.

If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the above diagram may seem shocking, but it accurately reflects the way things truly are in the organization. It also shows how organizationally similar the Watch Tower Society is to the Catholic Church – the very religion it has spent decades criticizing.

The Society is happy to say one thing in its publications, and another thing in court

Furthermore, you may be shocked to learn that, in at least one court case, Watchtower lawyers have openly admitted that the religion IS a hierarchy just like the Catholic Church. In a recent lawsuit surrounding an ugly power struggle in the Menlo Park congregation, California, a Watchtower attorney by the name of Calvin Rouse told a judge: “We are a hierarchical religion just like the Catholic Church.” A clipping of this shocking statement from the official court manuscript may be viewed below. If you would like to read more about the case in question and download the manuscript, you can do so by clicking here.

And so, even if the Society can’t admit to being a hierarchy in writing (mostly due to the stigma it has attached to that word over the decades), it is quite open about its hierarchical nature in illustrations and when pressed on the matter in a court of law.

Does it matter?

Perhaps, having considered the above information, you are saying to yourself: “But things have always been like this. Why is it such a big deal?” Well, the fact that the Watch Tower Society is a hierarchy is significant for two reasons. Firstly, because a hierarchical structure goes against scripture, and secondly, because they criticize other religious organizations for using the exact same system.

Consider Christ’s words at Matthew 23:6-12

“They [the Pharisees] like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (New World Translation)

By embracing a system where certain brothers in responsible positions are exalted above others, the Society has organized itself in direct contradiction of Christ’s words above. As seen in the Watchtower illustration, the Governing Body has now occupied the most exalted position – just a nudge away from heaven! Everyone else is beneath them. Not only that, everyone must humble themselves before the Governing Body by obeying everything they say. Those who don’t obey them or recognise their leadership are to be disfellowshipped as “apostates” and shunned by their Witness relatives.

Utter Hypocrisy

It is also worth remembering the countless instances over many decades where the Society has denounced the Catholic Church for operating as a hierarchy. Now the “Faithful Slave” doctrine has been re-written, and what do we see? The Watch Tower Society now has an almost identical organizational structure to the religion it has spent decades criticizing – even claiming to be fulfilling prophecy in the process (in the Revelation Climax book). Yes, our organization really is no different from any other Christian denomination, and the hypocrisy of it all is breathtaking.

The gradual and insidious nature of the Governing Body’s aquisition of greater power and prominence is reminiscent of Orwell’s Animal Farm

The whole thing reminds me of the much-loved parable “Animal Farm” by George Orwell, which I was taught in school. Intended as a cautionary warning against communism, Orwell’s story describes an uprising in which a group of animals seize control of their own farm by ousting their abusive farmer overlord. However, once the animals gain control, gradually the “top” animals who are in charge (the pigs) become corrupt. They begin with a commandment that reads “all animals are equal,” but gradually, over a period of time, this is changed to read “all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” By the end of the story, the pigs become just as abusive as the farmer they ousted.

The overall message of Orwell’s short story is that “power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” When you look at the Governing Body and the way they are gradually maneuvering doctrine to further exalt their position in the organization, it is not difficult to draw parallels with the pigs in Animal Farm. If you haven’t yet read the story, you can download it as a PDF on this link.

A reason to stop and ponder

In conclusion, I believe that thinking Witnesses all over the world need to pause and meditate on page 29 of the April 15th 2013 Watchtower. They need to look long and hard at that illustration and ask themselves the following difficult questions:

  • Is this really what I dedicated my life to serve when I got baptized?
  • Are Jehovah’s Witnesses really any different from any other religion if they have such a clearly defined hierarchy, which is almost identical to the Catholic Church?
  • How can the Governing Body justify performing such a huge u-turn by awarding itself Pope-like status?
  • Why observe their command to not investigate objective information about the organization when it is changing before my very eyes into something I can no longer respect or admire?

 

 

 

329 thoughts on “Are Jehovah’s Witnesses a hierarchical religion? And does it matter?

  • October 31, 2014 at 9:53 pm
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    you don’t have to find the exact term “governing body” in the Bible to see that there was in effect and in fact a “governing body”. Sighs… Pagan Protestants like you DON’T WANT Acts 15 to be as organized and centralized as it actually is, because it doesn’t fit your neurotic loosey agendas. So the dishonestly and WATERING-DOWN of what goes on in Acts 15 takes place, very desperately and predictably. Rationalizing away the CENTRAL AUTHORITY that’s so obviously there (as in the Levitical Israelite situation as well, with the “Hierarchical” structure and “Cult” of Moses and Aaron. And what happened there? Read Numbers. The Protestant Rebels named “Korah, Dathan, and Abiram”, who thought they had Jehovah’s backing too, GOT ELECTROCUTED by God Himself, and burned with fire. “Beware the rebellious talk of Korah” says Jude TO CHRISTIANS. There was definitely a “governing body” in the first-century Christian church, even though the exact term (lol) is not there. And even though you like to deny that. It gives you comfort to (wrongly) think that First Century New Testament Christianity resembled disorganized confusing divided pagan Protestantism today. The Apostles and Elders RAN things, from the TOP DOWN. And you Protestants JUST DON’T LIKE THAT FACT. People generally believe what they WANT to believe. Not necessarily waht the actual facts point to. Human nature. You DON’T WANT there to be theocratic structure in the first century or Acts situation, so you’ll just assume there wasn’t. Even though the decisions were clearly binding on all local congregations, NOT JUST “JEWS”. It settled “those necessary things”… Idolatry, fornication, blood. NOT “Sabbath Keeping” or “Circumcision”. And all real New Covenant Christians at the time HAD TO ABIDE by the decisions of Jehovah’s appointed leadership, that were guided by “the Holy Spirit”. It’s THEOCRATIC. Top down. And NOT really “democratic”. As it was with Noah’s Family, the Levitical Israelites, and the first-century New Covenant Christian Church. Regards……

  • October 31, 2014 at 10:13 pm
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    Excelsior, read the Book of Acts more carefully. It says “the Holy Spirit AND WE OURSELVES lay these necessary things on you.” (Acts 15) “Apostles and Elders”. Last time I checked, those were “men”. Paul said “copy me as I copy Christ”. Paul was ORDERING CONGREGATIONS AROUND big time, with his EPISTLES. God USES men, His CHURCH. Did God want you to obey Moses, at the time of the ancient Israelites? You sound like a moron, frankly. (Sighs….) Jehovah APPOINTS “men”, in His TRUE arrangement. God’s appointed leadership. When Korah, Dathan, and Abiram wanted to do things their own way, thinking that God was still with them, and didn’t want to listen to the “Cult” of Moses and Aaron, what happened? God Himself destroyed Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. Jude said “beware the rebellious talk of Korah” TO THE CHRISTIANS. So when some sloppy nut says “errrgh, God wants you to obey Christ, not men” arf arf, that shows ignorance and that the person is a very poor Bible student. Acts 15 ALONE disproves that “men” are not to be listened to. Peter himself was “teaching” the flock, right there, in his Epistle. The teaching would be done through God’s Apostolic Church. The Lord’s true witnesses. Because why did the Apostle Paul say in Ephesians 3.10 that the truth is obtained and received “through the Church”? Read that. For real. Ephesians 3.10. It says: “be made known THROUGH THE CONGREGATION…the greatly diversified wisdom of God.” You caught that? The knowledge and wisdom of God would be made known and taught THROUGH THE “CHURCH”. Through the Christian Church. Or by means of the Christian Congregation. The organized Assembly of the Lord’s witnesses. And in Verse 11, Paul wrote: “ACCORDING TO THE ETERNAL PURPOSE that He formed in connection with Christ Jesus our Lord”. The true “Church” or “Congregation” of the Lord is the means that the Lord Jesus makes known His Truth and Wisdom. Pagan rebels and “independents” seem to dodge or ignore verses like that.

  • November 1, 2014 at 5:10 am
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    Gabby,

    Your analysis of the early Church is correct. However, it would be useful to you to examine HOW these Apostles and Older Men were appointed.

    The book of Acts tells of Pentecost 33CE, where the Holy Spirit was poured down on the early Christians. They had a visible sign, tongues of flame, along with the gift of tongues. It was obvious that these men were the chosen people of God at that time.

    The bible said that the laying on of hands (how spirit was passed back then) would cease, along with the other miraculous gifts. What would remain?

    Love, Gabby, that is what would remain. Is the WTBTS loving to apply a rule that pertains to boundary disputes to cases of child abuse? Is it loving to shun family members, despite there being no scriptural basis for doing so? I could go on.

    Gabby, examine what your leaders are telling you to do. Do your research!

    Peace be with you,

    Excelsior!

  • November 1, 2014 at 6:17 am
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    Gabby, you have to understand what it would have been like in the first century. The account in Acts says there were thousands of Jews who had become believers in Christ and in that 15th chapter of Acts, it says that there was a sect of the Pharisees in Jerusalem who stood up and insisted that these new converts to the Christian religion should follow the Mosaic Law (Acts 15:5). Acts 21:20 says there were thousands of Jews who were believers so it would have been natural that they were already circumcised when they became Christians so it was probably these Jewish Christian men who had gone down to Antioch to insist that when a man who wasn’t Jewish wanted to become a Christian, he had to get circumcised but it was Paul and Barnabas who had argued with these Jewish men from Judea who were insisting that these new Gentile converts follow the Mosaic Law. So, they all went back to Jerusalem to decide the matter so then when Paul and Barnabas went back to these cities, they would carry these decrees that these older men and Apostles had decided upon to these various congregations. In other words, these new converts who weren’t Jewish didn’t need to follow the Mosaic Law. Keep in mind that most of the people they were surrounded by would probably have been Jews. The Apostles and older men said that all they needed was to have faith.

    In verse 21, it is mentioned that the Jews had had read to them aloud every Sabbath in the synagogues, Moses. They didn’t have Bibles like we have today. All they had were the writings from the Hebrew scriptures and so it would have been natural for all those Christians and Jews to have had the Hebrew scriptures read to them and that would have included the writings of Moses (the law). So, that all it was. These men in Jerusalem would get together and if there was something that that needed to be settled, they did that because the apostles of Jesus Christ would have been the “go to guys” at the time.

    That doesn’t mean that the men of the Governing Body are to be compared to the apostles of Jesus Christ. What was written in the Bible is what a Christian has to follow and that is from Mathew to Revelation.

    The writings and decisions of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t from God and aren’t inspired whereas the writings of the Bible are considered to be inspired of God. The Governing Body will never and can never make the claim that their decisions are inspired (or then they can’t make mistakes) so they fall back on using the excuse that they will make decisions like the Apostles did (and make up a term called the Governing Body which isn’t in the Bible at all) in the first century but if they make mistakes, they will use the excuse that they are just imperfect men.

    The thing that needs to be established is, did God appoint them over us as our rulers or did they appoint themselves over us as our rulers? If they appointed themselves over us as their rulers, then we don’t need to follow them and shouldn’t follow them because they are ursurping a position that doesn’t belong to them.

  • November 1, 2014 at 6:30 am
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    Gabby, what happens with a cult following is that somebody comes along like Charles Taze Russell and is very convincing that they only have special knowledge and understanding from God about the Bible and people believe these kinds of people that they have some special knowledge from God and they create a following.

    The Bible belongs to everyone though and nobody needs to belong to a church to understand the Bible. People have the misconception that they are not able to understand the Bible on their own. When Cornelius asked for help, he didn’t have a Bible like we do today and the Watchtower and other churches like to use this account to propagate the idea in people’s minds that they need a church to understand the Bible and that isn’t true at all.

    A question: Do you think those older men and Apostles in Jerusalem supported themselves with jobs or do you think the lived off the flock like the ministers in Christendom do? There was no publishing company like the Watchtower. All they had was word of mouth and thousands became believers in the first century.

    The churches in Christendom pay their preachers to be their ministers and that is understood. It’s a job. There is no hypocrisy there with that arrangement. To say that the Witnesses aren’t as bad as the churches in Christendom doesn’t make it okay for the Governing Body to live off the flock and lord it over them. Whether they get big salaries or not, we have no way of knowing. With all the millions coming into that corporation every day, doesn’t it make you wonder where all that money goes? They sure can afford a lot of properties. We will never know where all that money goes. They keep that secret. Are they in charge of a large printing corporation? Is that their job or do they go from door to door preaching and teaching like the Apostle Paul did? Do they support themselves or live off the flock?

  • November 1, 2014 at 6:57 am
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    and yes Gabby. When you have a big business, you certainly need people to be in charge but is that their job or are they supposed to be ministers and slaves? Is there any way to prove that they were appointed by God or did they appoint themselves as business owners and corporate bosses and read off Bible talks, pretending to be our ministers?

    We all have the Bible and we all can read it and understand it for ourselves. Don’t fool yourself that you are too stupid to understand it yourself and need these men to “interpret” for you. Understand the Bible is being printed in your own language. Also understand that all of us out here that are commenting on the web site also have brains in our heads and when we see that the Bible is being deliberately misinterpreted to us, we get that too. We are also not that stupid.

  • November 1, 2014 at 8:41 am
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    Gabby, I have a question for you and maybe you can answer it for me, since you seem to be so much smarter than all us “morons” out here.

    Look in your Insight on the Scriptures Vol. 2 page 169 under the topic Kingdom of God. Go to the last paragraph on the left side under “The Kingdom of the Son of His Love.”

    The Watchtower has to acknowledge that 10 days after Jesus was resurrected to heaven that he had been exalted to the right hand of God because Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit upon the 120 disciples in the upper room at Pentecost of 33 C.E. Colossians 1:13 says “He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.”

    Mathew 28:18 reads “And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying “All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth.”

    So, was Jesus, King of the Kingdom and given all authority over heaven and earth when he was resurrected or not? Jesus said he had been given all authority in heaven and earth at Mathew 28:18 but the Watchtower says that no, he wasn’t given all authority yet and it did not happen until 1914. The Watchtower says in that article that yes Jesus was a King but with limited authority only over his congregation but Jesus said his authority was unlimited. The Watchtower is telling you that there are two Kingdoms (this is from the Insight book) “The Kingdom of the Son of his love” began at Pentecost 33 C.E. and has been over Christ’s anointed disciples; “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ” is brought forth at the end of “the appointed times of the nations” and is over all mankind on earth.”

    Gabby, since you are so smart, explain those 2 kingdoms to us.

    So, I have another question for you: Who do you believe? The Watchtower or Jesus Christ?????

  • November 1, 2014 at 11:22 am
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    the only “Borg” is YOU, Tamey. Because you keep dodging the clear Scriptures and Biblical principles of central authority (in BOTH “Testaments”) and fixate on “1914” which is (in logic) called a RED HERRING. Because the issue is “hierarchy” and if how the Witnesses have it is Biblical, which it clearly kind of is. Acts 15. Leviticus, etc. The fact though is that we ARE living in the “last days”, and that the “Gentile Times” have ended (whether we go by “607” or “586 BC” the Gentile Times came to a close some time in the 20th century, and we’re living in the “time of the end” and very PERILOUS TIMES. And only JWs look to Christ’s Kingdom, and “keep on the watch”. Which is what nuts like you don’t appreciate or understand. And again, if JWs are “borg”, then so was the first century Christians, because they were kept in line by the “Apostles and Elders” and the “Apostolic Decree”, like in the “Council of Jerusalem”, in Acts 15, with decisions that were BINDING on all other local congregations, in other regions. There was definitely Top-Down Theocratic organization and central authority. Though pagan Korah-like rebellious pagan Protestant losers like to deny or dismiss or dodge those facts. Now watch you again evade and dodge the specific points, and then stupidly say “Borg” again, like a Borg-tard yourself, and raise another canard or red herring like “errghh, 1914 generation” arf arf.

    • November 1, 2014 at 11:39 am
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      Dream on Gabby!

      I feel sorry that you are still so blinded. Open your eyes and lift up your head, you will see Watchtower is ripe for harvesting, it will be thrown in the fire!

      Keep searching!

      “You will know the Internet and the Internet will set you free”

  • November 1, 2014 at 11:42 am
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    it’s amazing how apostate whiners and pagan Protestants and Roman Catholics think that “shunning family members” is just a WT concoction and that it’s not Scriptural, when it so clearly is. Christ said “I came to divide families” with a symbolic “sword”. “A man’s enemies will be members of his own family”. (Matthew 10) Apostates and anti-JW losers are VERY POOR BIBLE STUDENTS. And like to “shun” those Scriptures. lol. Here’s another one. Christ said “he that does not HATE father, mother, son, daughter, for My sake CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE”. (Luke 14) And in context that means “love less”, where loving and following Christ and His Truth would be ABOVE family members and relatives or spouses. Where it would SEEM like “hating”. Christ’s own words, in the Gospels. I guess Christ was not “very loving”. Fail. The Holy Spirit (NOT the WT) says “remove the wicked man from your church”. (1 Corinthians 5) Drunks, fornicators, thieves, etc etc…who were once “brothers” in the faith. And 2 John 10 says “DO NOT EVEN SAY A GREETING TO SUCH A PERSON”. No qualifying clauses about “family members” when it comes to disfellowshipping. The fact is that “disfellowshipping” is VERY Scriptural. As well as the point about REAL disciples not associating much with worldly people anymore, even worldly relatives. It says “do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers”…(whether blood relative or not). What do we DO with Verses like that, kiddo? Do you know that one BIG reason (there are many, but one of my main five reasons) why I believe JWs have the Truth is because of the disfellowshipping issue? For real. No joke. Because ONLY Jehovah’s witnesses actually take that seriously AND ACTUALLY FOLLOW THAT IN THE BIBLE. And do NOT water those things down, down-play them (like you desperate pagan Bible-rejecters), ignore them, or rationalize those commands and verses away. But again, in a way, it’s just another red herring argument (that fails anyway), because the issue is about “hierarchy” and if JWs have their church structure and organization Scriptural, and was first-centuray Christianity “top-down” theocratic, and organized, and centralized, and the fact is that Acts 15 (the whole Book of Acts actually) shows that there was central governing authority, from “Apostles and Elders”, and that there definitely was appointed leadership….NOT just for one isolated local congregation, but for ALL Christian congregations in all regions. The Jerusalem Council exemplifies and proves that. It says “the Holy Spirit AND WE OURSELVES lay these necessary orders on you” etc. Acts 15:28,29. BINDING on all other congregations. Deciding and directing issues, of faith and doctrine and practice. First-Century “New Testament” Biblical Christianity did NOT resemble divided pagan Protestantism. Nor did it resemble Popery either. You never see the words “Pope Peter” in the Bible. Or even the words “Father Peter” for that matter. Or “College of Cardinals”. Or even the word “Arch-Bishop”. But you do see “Elders, Deacons, and Overeers”, and traveling overseers like Paul etc. And THAT’S how Paul “went out to the people”. Because he was a TRAVELING ELDER OR OVERSEER. (“Overseer” meaning “bishop”) So “Circuit Overseers” in JWs is like saying “Circuit Bishop”….lol. Which IS Scriptural. Paul was a good example of a traveling Overseer, in the true Christian Church, overseeing and directing and pastoring and shepherding local Christian congregations. JWs have overall followed the Biblical New Covenant example, in these modern times and “last days”. Regards.

    • November 1, 2014 at 4:01 pm
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      Gabby, take your petty, miserable and small minded god and leave

      Just remember Mark Twain when he said…
      “If men neglected “God’s Poor and God’s Stricken and helpless ones” as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die. If you will look at the matter rationally and without prejudice, the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise, but in those lands where He has the field to himself.

      What a horrible person your small minded god is!

  • November 1, 2014 at 11:51 am
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    excellent point. There has to be some order and organizaiton, and top-down structure. Which IS how the Bible shows it to be, from Noah’s Ark (Noah being the leader) of that small “church” at the time, the Levitical Israelites, with Moses, and the Aaronic priesthood and order, to the first century Apostolic and Ecclesiastical Christian Congregation. You see that Acts quite clearly (if one is honest and careful). But pagan Protestants, with their private interpretations and willfulness and Korah-like rebelliousness (see Jude), don’t like those Biblical facts and points. You, though, appreciate the realities.

  • November 1, 2014 at 1:56 pm
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    so Gabby, is the Watchtower hierarchical or not? What point are you trying to make here? The lawyer for the Society said the Society is set up just like the Catholic Church. Did you read the whole article? Nobody is denying that an organization needs structure.

    My question to you is, do you know for sure that it’s God who is directing the Watchtower organization through the Governing Body and has he always done that and if not, when did he start directing it?

    There are thousands of religions out there. How can you prove that the Watchtower is directed by the God of the Bible? Are you willing to put your faith in the Watchtower to the test? That means you have to disprove us “apostates”. The Watchtower says that we are all liars, but do you know what lies we are spreading or are you just taking their word for it that we are lying? We are hoping for somebody to prove us wrong. We would welcome it.

  • November 1, 2014 at 2:22 pm
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    Gabby, I don’t understand why you are on this web site? Is it because you are afraid the Watchtower will come down if we are allowed to continue talking against the Watchtower so you feel the need to bring down this web site? Cedars has a really good challenge for you. If you take the challenge and prove us wrong, he will bring down JW survey. Can you take that challenge? If you don’t want to take the challenge, you are blowing into the wind here.

  • November 1, 2014 at 6:50 pm
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    OF COURSE there’s a certain “hierarchical” structure, as there Biblically should be, with Jehovah’s witnesses, a Biblical one, that we see in BOTH “Testaments” (in principle), and the point is that there was definitely TOP-DOWN central authority in the Acts New Covenant Christians, and Apostolic Congregation of Christ. The only point is that even though there’s some obvious similarities with the Roman Catholic Church’s “hierarchical” system, it’s NOT quite the same. There’s NO infallible “pope”, but a BODY OF ANOINTED ELDERS. A “Governing Council” if you want to call it that. But “Governing Body” is an ok term. And it parallels the “Elders and Apostles” situation in Acts 15, with “the Holy Spirit and WE OURSELVES lay these necessary things on you”. It’s called the “Apostolic Decree” for a reason, and it was BINDING on all other local Christian congregations in other regions. No matter how much pagan Korah-like Protestants want to deny that fact or water it down, or think it’s not necessary for real Christians today. Jehovah is a God of order, not of confusion and crazy divisions, which is what you see in divided pagan Protestantism today, and for a long time. Of course there is a top-down structure and “higher archy” or “hierarchy”. NO KIDDING. The WT point is that it’s NOT like the crazy situation that you find in the clergy-laity stuff with Roman Catholicism (and even some Protestant religions, such as Lutheranism and Anglicanism, in a sense)…and “College of Cardinals” and “infallible Pope”. The WT has DISCLAIMED “divine inspiration” or “infallibility” etc. Knowing that there could be some inaccuracies (sometimes) and mistakes, and clarifications of understandings and reforms and humblings etc. All elders (even Circuit and District Overseers) are called “Brother”…NEVER “Father” or even “Reverend” or “Pastor” this or that, but “Brother So and So”. And even Governing Body members have gone to the lowly “publishers” and did some painting work side by side with them, in humility. I’ve seen this. But again, there’s a BALANCE. Meaning that even though Roman Catholicism has gone too far and inaccurate with their stuff, it’s actually (in the sense of order and organization and top-down conception) more Biblical (in a sense), than your average “independent Baptist Church” or whatever you have there in most “funny mentalist” Protestant churches and groups. You can’t reasonably deny that there was “hierarchy” in the New Testament, with Apostles, Traveling Bishops, Elders, and Deacons, etc. And some central authority. It was NOT this loose confederacy that many Protestants hallucinate or wish or dream or imagine. Neither was it that way (obviously) with the Levitical Mosaic Hebrew Israelites. God does NOT work in a loose disorganized way, with His organized people, IN DISPENSATIONS. Top-Down means “hierarchy” ina sense, correct? Well that’s all that it is. It’s just NOT QUITE like the Roman Catholic Church. Similar in some ways (sure), but not exactly the same, like this apostate cornball whiner and loser and writer of this post has been trying to convey. There are some serious differences. Not even the oldest Governing Body member is called “Pope” or “Father” or has his ring or foot kissed. By anyone. But “double honor” to elders and overseers is mentioned by Paul (a traveling bishop) to Timothy, and to us. Regards………

  • November 1, 2014 at 7:01 pm
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    Comparing the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses to Moses is not right. Moses went up the mountain and he heard from God. If the GB heard from God they would be prophets for real. They say they are not prophets (so they need not be right when they make predictions) and they say they are not inspired of God. Moses was inspired of God. The governing body use human reasoning to explain what scriptures mean and sometimes they change their minds. The governing body should not compare themselves to the apostles either. The apostles heard from God like Moses did.

    Acts 16:9 A vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing and appealing to him, and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

    The governing body use record keeping to determine where the preaching must be done. They do not hear from God’s Spirit like all the Bible holy ones do.

    Do they?

  • November 1, 2014 at 7:18 pm
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    People are comparing the governing body to Moses and those who disagree with the governing body to Korah, Dathan and Abiram but I suppose it is much more pertinent to compare Jesus to Moses and the governing body to Korah, Dathan and Abiram . That is for real.

    Jesus promised to send a helper. Surely no one can believe the helper he promised to send is the governing body members.

  • November 1, 2014 at 8:05 pm
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    JUDE compared the Christian Congregation to Moses, by saying to CHRISTIANS “beware the rebellious talk of Korah”. (Jude 11, 12) It’s the GENERAL PRINCIPLE. Nancy, the POINT (that you’re idiotically missing, to be frank) is this: JEHOVAH USES THEOCRATIC TOP-DOWN ORGANIZAITON AND STRUCTURE IN ALL HIS DISPENSATIONS. To say “errgh, you can’t compare it because Moses went up to a mountain and God did this” etc and “Paul with visions of Jesus” etc CONVENIENTLY MISSES THE POINT. Because when Jude wrote to Christians, there were not big visions of Jesus in the sky going on much anymore, at that time. It’s written for CHRISTIANS in ALL time periods. That the overall general principle is that there IS AND WAS “hierarchical” structure, with the Lord’s dealings and doings and His rulership over His people. First-century Christianity did NOT resemble present-day mish-mosh divided rebellious disorganized pagan Protestantism. That’s just a fact. And Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, with the Hebrew Isrealites, thought that Moses was “arrogant” too, and too much with ordering around, and even “cultic” with leadership and “following men”. Korah said “we too are the Congregation of Jehovah”. They thought they were right. They HAD to think they were right. But they rebelled against God’s APPOINTED leadership (regardless of “mountains” and “miracles”, the PRINCIPLE is the same all the time), and what what happened to Korah and his crew? They burned with fire and electroctued, by Jehovah God Himself. And let’s not forget what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in the Book of Acts for rebelling and lying to God’s appointed rulership, disrespecting the Holy Spirit. And Jude much later wrote to Christians scattered about “beware the rebellious talk of Korah”. BEWARE OF APOSTATE WHINERS AND BELLY-ACHERS AND REBELS… Who don’t like top-down orders and control and structure. Wake up already…..

    • November 2, 2014 at 9:37 am
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      What began as the Christian ministry evolved into a formal, hierarchical institution. Orders and ranks were formed, and they were invested with prestige and power and often accumulated great wealth. This created divisions.” (g00 7/8 p27)

      As you can see Gabby the society say there is no hierarchy in the JW org. But the opposite is true. Up to now there is the governing body who although they say they are not infallible, say they must be obeyed to the letter, which has the same end result, you must do what they say even if you disagree with it. After them you have branch elders who issue instructions to district overseers who issue instructions to circuit overseers who issue instructions to local elders who issue instructions to mini servants who issue instructions to ordinary members.
      There is no proof whatsoever that the governing body were appointed by God in 1919. You just have to take their word for it. They have been 100% wrong in everything they have said about the future unfolding of prophesies.
      And incidentally ex JWs are not WHINERS AND BELLY-ACHERS AND REBELS as you put it, they simply point out the complete falseness of the JW org.

  • November 2, 2014 at 6:57 am
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    Gabby, I was baptized in 1966 at the age of 19, so I have been in this religion for almost 50 years now so I know every scripture you are referring to. Please address some of the issues I have been bringing up to you.

    You are leaving out scriptures such as people will be eating and drinking and suddenly that day will be instantly upon them and people will mock us and the watchmen class and people of our own families would turn away from us and on and on. There has to be at least 20 scriptures the Watchtower uses to scare us into thinking that we have to be watching and on guard every minute or we will be killed at Armageddon. We are all familiar with those scriptures too.

    For many months, I was afraid that if I examined the “lies” that apostates are framing against the Society, that I’d be killed at Armageddon too. All of us went through that but we slogged onward and tried to prove all the so-called “lies” wrong but we couldn’t do that.

    People have been making these predictions about the end of the world for hundreds if maybe thousands of years. They get this from what the Bible says but please don’t be afraid to do a research of the history of the Bible and Bible translations and the Watchtower history and then come back and tell us how reliable any Bible or translation is and if the Watchtower’s history is proof that God would have chosen it as his one and only spokesman in 1919.

    People have been sucked in by cults for years and years. They follow certain human beings who claim to have special knowledge from God and the Watchtower is no different. It started with Russell and then Rutherford and then Knorr and on and on and now it’s the Governing Body.

    The Governing Body does not claim to be inspired of God but “spirit-directed” by God. What is the difference? They can’t say they are “inspired” because then they’d be putting themselves on the same plain as the Bible writers and they couldn’t make mistakes either. So, they claim to be “anointed” and claim to be “spirit-directed”, neither of which proves that they have some special knowledge from God.

    You and I know just as much about what the Bible says than they do. They even admit it in their own Watchtowers. Why do we have to follow all the man-made rules they come up with if they are only men and in charge of a printing corporation and have no special insights? What gives them the right to tell me that I have to die if I took a blood transfusion? What gives them the right to tell me that I can’t get a scriptural divorce from my husband if I catch him having sex with an animal? That is the stuff they make rules on and if you disagree with any of those rules and tell anybody about it, you will be disfellowshipped for it.

    I encourage you to look up what makes a cult? Cults use fear (Armageddon), intimidation (shunning) and claims of divine knowledge that is only given to them (the Governing Body).

    It isn’t the Governing Body who write the Watchtower articles and books. That is done by committees who don’t claim to be anointed. It’s a publishing company in the guise of a religion and they use fear and intimidation to trick us into joining and once we are in, we can’t get out except to fade, get disfellowshipped or disassociate (disfellowshipped).

    Who gives them this authority that they claim they got from God? How can they prove they are speaking for God and have special knowledge of what the Scriptures are really saying? Why can’t you or I read the Bible and come to our own conclusions that disagree with what the Watchtower says? Does the Governing Body have the right to lie to us about 607 and misinterpret the Scriptures? The Bible says right in Revelation that it’s a sin to take away from the Bible or add to it.

    The Watchtower knows enough not to have anybody called “father” so how do they get around this is by calling itself our “mother”. That is a vain attempt to show that they are no different than the Catholic Church except they try and pull the wool over our eyes by telling us that they aren’t a hierarchical religion when they really are and that lawyer was right when he said this is a hierarchical religion set up just like the Catholic Church. That lawyer said that so that they could take that property away from that congregation and all the money they had in the bank and they can do that to any congregation in the world because YES IT IS A HIERARCHICAL RELIGION JUST LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

    You say that yes, it’s hierarchical but we need direction. Fine. You need direction but admit it then that you are no different than the Catholic Church the way it’s set up. To say that we don’t have anybody called “fathers” make it okay???? What about calling themselves our “mother” then?? What makes that okay? TRICKY TRICKY TRICKY

    Please supply some evidence that God really is directing this organization and prove that Jesus was wrong at Mathew 18:18 when he said that ALL AUTHORITY HAD ALREADY BEEN GIVEN TO HIM WHEN HE WAS RESSURECTED 10 DAYS AFTER HE WENT TO HEAVEN and the WATCHTOWER SAYS NO, HE WASN’T GIVEN THAT AUTHORITY UNTIL 1914.

  • November 2, 2014 at 7:04 am
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    Mathew 28:18 “All authority had been given to Jesus when he was resurrected”, not Mathew 18:18 like I posted above.

  • November 2, 2014 at 8:51 am
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    quote ” But they rebelled against God’s APPOINTED leadership “. OK Who is God’s appointed leader? Who leads God’s sheep? The Shepherd. “One flock, one shepherd” John 10:16 He said the other shepp “will listen to MY voice”. The governing body teach that if you hear anything other than what they say DON’T BELIEVE it. So Jesus is not allowed to speak to anyone but JW governing body members.

  • November 2, 2014 at 11:55 am
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    it doesn’t actually say in explicit words “we have nothing resembling order or structure or what would be called a ‘hierarchy’ at all.” You’re misreading it a little bit. (As human nature, and especially biased drones tend to do, who have neurotic axes to grind and agendas.) Of course there’s an implication (I’ll grant you) that the WT is saying “hey we have no hierarchy at all”. But that’s NOT what was exactly said though. It was talking about the “hierarchy” of the pagan apostate church in its formal CLERGY-LAITY division, that JWs do NOT really have, in that sense. Or the “father” this and that. Meaning that it’s a matter of semantics to some degree, but JWs do NOT have the same situation as the Roman Catholic pagan clergy-laity situation. And THAT was the basic point being made. NOWHERE though did the WT say that it had no TOP-DOWN structure, because in fact it mentions it that it does A LOT. “Theocratic” top-down, etc. It may shy away from the use of the word “hierarchy” because of the word’s baggage and what it tends to call to mind. Which I understand. But I’m just saying that you’re reading A BIT TOO MUCH INTO the words of the WT, when it was basically denouncing what went on with the apostasy from the 3rd century A.D. onward, into the elaborate craziness of the Roman Catholic system. But you know that the WT ALSO always condemned the confused dis-orderly mess of divided and pagan Protestantism too, correct? Meaning that it’s a BALANCED VIEW and SCRIPTURAL VIEW that the WT was trying to convey. Of course (in a “sense” I said) there’s at least SOME “hierarchical” structure (if you wanna call it that), with the WT, and I said (repeatedly) AS THERE SHOULD BE, SCRIPTURALLY AND LOGICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY. Because what does “hierarchy” even mean really? It means TOP-DOWN. In an important sense. (With at least some levels.) Elders are higher than deacons (or “ministerial servants”). BIBLICAL “hierarchy” (if that word is to be used). And Acts shows clearly a governing central authority, that all elders in other congregations had to abide by. Those “Elders and Apostles” in Jerusalem, in Acts 15, were NOT just regular local elders obviously. But a governing council. That gave an “Apostolic DECREE” that all Christians had to follow. (Wow, that kind of sounds like a “cult”in a way.) TOP-DOWN. And the WT always said it has that. Stop whining about this. If the WT disavowed the IDEA of “hierarchy” too much, maybe, and not acknowledging that they themselves (to some logical and Scriptural degree) have what could be termed a “hierarchy”, then that’s whatever. NONE of that negates the fact or at least the possibility that JWs still have the Truth! Again, the organizational structure of JWs is BIBLICAL, when you see Acts 15 etc, as well as how Jehovah dealt with things in general, from Noah, to the Levitical Israealites, onward. And THAT is the crucial point. And again, JWs do NOT have the same exact situation as Roman Catholicism. There’s NO real “clergy-laity” distinction, in that sense. But the Bible says “elders” and “double honor” TOO. And what else “be OBEDIENT to those taking the lead among you. (Hebrews 13). Ooops. Again, a BALANCED viewpoint. Which the WT has nailed down pat. The R.C. pagan church has gone WAAYYY TOO FAR with that, and most of pagan Protestantism doesn’t follow any theocratic top-down structure at all, ala Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. (Jude 10, 11)

  • November 2, 2014 at 12:41 pm
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    Gabby, I was baptized in 1966 and I have no problem belonging to a religion that has structure and I even don’t have a problem going from door to door preaching about the Bible but my problem is that I can’t support an organization that deliberately lies to me about such things as the 607 theory and bases it’s whole religion on that and on 1914 with no basis at all and disfellowships people who find out about the lies and decides they don’t want to support it anymore. That’s my problem.

    If you want to belong to the Jehovah’s Witness religion and preach it to others as the “truth”, then you should know for sure that really is the truth. You should not be afraid to put it to the test and test the teachings against the Bible. You need to do some research on the 607 date. The Watchtower has even admitted in the 2 articles in the 2011 Watchtower that there are absolutely no authorities who also believe that Jerusalem fell in 607. How can you defend an organization that disfellowships people who find out the real truth about 607 and tells somebody else what they found?

    The Watchtower belonged to the United Nations for 10 years from 1992 to 2002 (and admit to it if you call them on the phone) and when it was found out and printed in the newspaper, they took their name off the rolls the very next day. How can you defend that? How can you defend the non-existent child protection policy which they claim they have but can’t produce?

    I was personally beat in the face and body and top of my head with my elder’s husband’s doubled up fist for 15 years and when I tried to tell the elders what he was doing to me, I didn’t get a listening ear. He even beat me in the stomach when I was 8 months pregnant and even then I didn’t get a listening ear. The elder told me that it was understandable because of all the pressures he was under being an elder. I reported to the elders that my husband was watching the rape and torture of women on the internet as entertainment for over 5 years and they did nothing about it and it wasn’t until I was at my daughter’s house and we watched it live as he was doing it from her computer that I finally had a witness to what he was doing and they finally reproved him. All this time, he continually lied about me but when it was proved from a 2nd witness, all they did was reprove him and then in order to get his “privileges” back, all he had to do was be regular at meetings and service. To this day, he insists, he didn’t do anything to me, only Jehovah. The Society cares nothing about women and children.

    If you want to defend this religion, be happy and do it but don’t expect all of us out here who have been abused by it, to defend it. Don’t talk down to us like you know so much more than we do. You don’t know zip. If this isn’t enough for you, I could easily write another 20 pages about all the things the Society has done to lie to us and abuse us. What do you have to defend it????? I have Watchtowers going back to 1950 so I can find anything to prove my points.

    We don’t care that much about it being run like a hierarchy. All we care about is that people should be able to research the history and the old publications without being disfellowshipped for it when we find out the real history and want to get out we should not have our mouths shut up by disfellowshipping us. We should be able to warn our families what we found out also.

  • November 2, 2014 at 3:27 pm
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    Gabby, I have another question for you to answer. You believe that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ right? According to the Watchtower, Michael became Jesus the man and when he died, he returned back to heaven as Michael the Archangel, right? Why do you still pray through Jesus name then? Why not pray through Michael’s name? Jesus body is dead and gone. Now he’s Michael again, right? It doesn’t make any sense that you are praying in the name of a man long gone off the scene.

    Also, Paul was converted after Jesus died and went back to heaven right? Was Paul a disciple of Jesus Christ or of Michael?

    Why does Acts 9:5 say of Jesus Christ who was already in heaven “He said: Who are you, Lord?” He said “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”

    Just because the Watchtower says that Michael is the resurrected Jesus Christ, that doesn’t make it so.

  • November 2, 2014 at 3:32 pm
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    Gabby, I have another question for you. How do you explain John 20:25 where Thomas wanted to see the “print of the NAILS in Jesus hands”???? The Watchtower always shows Jesus being nailed up with only ONE NAIL IN HIS HANDS.

    • November 2, 2014 at 4:56 pm
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      ayayaya, I can’t be on the merry-go-round with you on these matters forever…as I should not be on this website in the first place really. But to answer your Michael question. And “why pray in Jesus’ name if His Heavenly name is Michael”, because “Jesus” is the HUMAN NAME given by God, when the Word became perfect Flesh, for our sakes. And for the glory of the Father. But the role of Michael is what Jesus had….and Michael is the “Angel of the LORD” of Exodus, who led the Israelites in the wilderness. As even hyper-trinitarians believe that the “Angel of the LORD” is the pre-existent Jesus, as as special “Angel”. Well it says in Daniel that “NONE but Michael” watches over “Daniel’s people”, the Hebrew Israelites. “NO ONE but Michael” can hold for these things. Why? Because that’s the Prince Jesus. But praying in “Jesus” name is because that’s the name given to Him AS A PERFECT MAN, who died for us. As the High Priest and Mediator, for that purpose. And the name “Jesus” means “Jehovah is Salvation” or “Jehovah is Savior”. As Jehovah provides salvation to sinners through His Word made Flesh, His First-begotten Son. But that doesn’t negate that He has a Heavenly role of defeating Satan and His demons as “Michael the Prince of Israel”. Only JESUS though is the “Prince of Israel”…hence is Michael. By the way, did you know that Charles Haddon Spurgeon also believed that Jesus is Michael? This Five-Point Calvinist Trinitarian. Similar to Seventh Day Adventists. Spurgeon believed that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, but that Michael was also “God the Son” part of the Trinity. But that Christ was Michael in Heavenly function, and that Michael is Almighty God too. Because Spurgeon recognized that Michael was the same “Angel of the LORD” of Exodus. “NONE but Michael” is our Help, it says in Daniel. That can only be the Lord Jesus. As to your other question about “nails” in John 20. LOL. That old thing again. When it says “a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see Me have” hyper-Trinitarians TRIP ALL OVER THEMSELVES, and get that all misunderstood. He showed wounds to Thomas to make it clear that He was NOT an “apparition” or some ghostly image, but a real MATERIALIZATION that can be felt. That it was really the Risen Christ. Remember, He also walked through walls, which is NOT something real “flesh and bone” people can do, only spirits can do that. It says in Mark 16 as an appendix written by Christians in the 2nd century, that it was believed that the risen Christ “appeared in another form” in various instances. ON-THE-SPOT MANIFESTATIONS in flesh and bone (real) bodies. He could show “nail wounds” that way. But the problem is that hyper-trinitarians don’t believe that Christ truly forever “sacrificed” His flesh as He said He would. But was in effect an “Indian Giver” who took it back on the third day. But Paul called Christ a “spirit who gives life”. To the Corinthians. (1 Corinthians 15:45) Christ is DEFINITELY a spirit being in Heaven. “Put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit”. Said Peter. (1 Peter 3:18) NOT “by the Spirit” as the KJV wrongly puts it, making it like it was the Holy Spirit being referred to. As that would make no real sense in the context of the sentence. Christ was put to death “in the flesh” (meaning IN A FLESHLY BODY), and “made alive in the spirit” (in correlation, it would then mean IN A SPIRIT BODY). The American Standard Version of 1901 has it correct in 1 Peter 3:18. The inspired Paul called Christ a “life-giving SPIRIT”. So what do the Hyper-Trinitarians do? They’ll then say “errrgh, ok, then Christ is both a spirit and a flesh-and-bone human in Heaven at the same time”. LOL. You see the problems they get themselves into now? Do you see the problem with that idea? Jesus said to Thomas “a spirit HATH NOT flesh and bones”. So how can Christ be both a “spirit”, as Paul called Christ, and have “flesh and bones” also at the same time?? Simple. JESUS DOES NOT HAVE ACTUAL FLESH AND BONES IN HEAVEN AT ALL…but manifested those materialized things on earth “in different forms” (Mark 16 KJV), to people like doubting Thomas, who thought he was seeing a “vision” or “ghostly image” or “apparition”. That’s what was meant by the word “spirit” IN THAT CONTEXT. Not necessarily a spirit being per se at all. Otherwise…sorry to say…then the Bible contradicts itself. Paul, under divine inspiration, EXPLICITLY CLEARLY called the Lord Jesus Christ in Heaven a “life-giving SPIRIT”. Or “a spirit who gives life”. What does that mean then?????? And if, as Hebrews 1 says, Christ is the “express image” of His Father, then how is that if the Father is Spirit, according to John 4? The Father does not have a human fleshly body at all…but a SPIRIT BODY…as the ALMIGHTY ETERNAL SPIRIT GOD ETERNAL. So the “copy” of the Father, the First-begotten Son, would also have to be “a Spirit” too, if He’s the Father’s “exact representation (copy)” of the Almighty Father Jehovah. Again, it can get a little confusing, but that’s why I always said that the Bible was written in such a way so as to test men’s hearts. If Christ is a Spirit, as 1 Corinthians 15 clearly says, then how could He also have “flesh and bones” literally in Heaven, in that sense? Again, those manifestations on earth after His Resurrection, were on-the-spot miraculous materializations (as the angels did in Genesis, in similar fashion). Spirit beings can do that. Make themselves flesh and bones on earth. They have that power. And obviously, fleshly materializations are NOT “spirit” apparitions. Thomas though he was saying a ghostly floaty spooky vision type thing, and not a real materialization. Also, do you remember that it says that the Apostles (the CLOSEST friends of Jesus for over 3 years every day) DID NOT RECOGNIZE THE RISEN CHRIST. Why is that?? If that was literally the same exact Jesus that died just a couple of days before? lol…….. Obviously (sighs) they were “different forms” He manifested in…as a miraculous spirit being that was risen. He MATERIALIZED Himself so as to be seen by flesh-and-blood humans. Humans cannot see “spirits” at all. So the life-giving Spirit Jesus had to manifest in “flesh-and-bone” forms SO AS to enable the Apostles and Disciples to “see” Him. But the hyper-trinitarian theory that Jesus is both a “spirit” and a “human” at the same time violates what the Bible actually says about the Nature of Heaven, and Spirit. And they say “He’s a flesh-and-bone human with no blood, but with a sort of ‘spiritual blood substance’ running through His veins now”. ???? Ah, no. He’s simply a divine mighty amazign glorified Spirit Being, with a Spirit Body, at the right hand of His Almighty Spirit Father, Jehovah. Those manifestations on earth after He was raised were simply different-form materializations so as to allow humans on earth to see Him. But then He went back to Heaven, and disappeared completely in clouds. God and Christ can do it any way they want. But the Holy Spirit says “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”. So to say “well not flesh and blood, but flesh and bones”, doesn’t work. Flesh and bones with no blood is dead. And if those who go to heaven will be both “spirits” and “flesh and bones” at the same time, then that contradicts Christ’s own words that “a spirit hath NOT flesh and bones”. So meaning that “spirits” will not be that at the same time. This overall is the most logical and Biblical explanation, and only JWs seem to have that down pat. All of pagan Christendom has that screwed up. CHRIST IS “A LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT”, and so can’t have “flesh and bones” literally in Heaven now. Regards………………….

  • November 2, 2014 at 3:36 pm
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    Gabby, I just love it when people like you come on to these “apostate” web sites and try to defend Watchtower. It gives us plenty of opportunities to show how you are all being lied to. If you didn’t do that, then maybe we wouldn’t be exposing all the lies. Keep it up. I am sure that is the real reason Watchtower doesn’t want you coming on to these web sites. You are helping to expose all their lies.

  • November 2, 2014 at 5:31 pm
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    Gabby, I am not interested in disproving the scripture where Jesus said he wasn’t a spirit after he was resurrected. That is what Jesus said. I don’t care about whether he was a spirit or not. I was talking about Michael being Jesus.

    I am quoting from the Insight book vol. 2 page 393 at the very bottom of the right hand side “At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, SUGGESTING that he is, in fact, himself the archangel.”

    Did you notice the Society said suggesting? That says no they don’t know and are only guessing that Michael is Jesus. The Bible doesn’t say that Jesus is Michael. That is the only authority you can use as fact if you are a Christian is what the Bible actually says, not what the Society says it says.

    About the scripture at John 20:25, I am quoting from the Watchtower 1969 page 640 “Often in the Watch Tower Society’s publications Jesus has been illustrated as being impaled with a single nail piercing his two Feet. This is only an artist’s conception, but it is QUITE POSSIBLE THAT IS HOW JESUS WAS IMPALED.”

    When you read anything out of the Watchtower publications, you need to look for the scripture to prove a point and when you are reading the publications, you need to look for words like SEEMS, LIKELY, POSSIBLY and so forth. These words are saying that the Society is guessing.

    Gabby, you like to say that us “apostates” are throwing red herrings to get away from the real questions and all those words that you typed in your response, don’t answer my questions at all. Are you up to testing to see whether or not you really are being told the truth or are you taking the word of the Society without any proof?

    Cults are very tricky with their words and the gullible fall for tricky words every time. I fell for it for almost 50 years so I know how it’s done and the Society are experts at manipulation, using the Bible.

  • November 2, 2014 at 6:48 pm
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    ok, gotcha, about the nails thing. Yeah, my personal position (I’ve said this for years) is that the “stavros” (which means “stake”) COULD have had an extra cross-piece attached in the top area. In other words a cross-shaped “stake”. What Christendom doesn’t understand is that “stavros” is “stavros” regardless of the shape. Because it would have been a wooden post to begin with. AT ITS BASE. Some stavros’es back then were T-shaped, X-shaped, cross-shaped, and some single piece. Yes, the WT has been maybe a bit too dogmatic or over-scrupulous (in a way) on this matter. But it’s very true that “stavros” in Greek did NOT originally mean shape of the “cross”. The word “cross” is just a SHAPE of something, and odes not really indicate the SUBSTANCE (that of wood, and it being a post or pole situation). A stake is STILL a “stake” EVEN IF WAS SHAPED AS A “CROSS”. The WT has had a little trouble (ALSO) in getting that fact. As well as Christendom, in saying “cross cross cross” all the time, when that’s NOT really what the word “stavros” actually originally means. And yes if Christ’s arms were outstretched, on a cross-bar, then it would be at least two nails. I agree, and have said that myself for years. So yeah, I’ve said since the 1990’s that the “stavros” may have had a cross-piece on top, since the Romans DID execute people in stakes in that form also. But the Romans also used one-piece stakes as well. So the thing about “nailS”, plural, and also where it says that the sign was posted “above His head”, gives an implication that Christ’s arms may have been out-streched, on a cross-bar, on TOP of the “stake”. But the English rendering of “stavros” is accurately “stake”…EVEN IF it had a cross-piece attached somewhere. That linguistic fact needs to be understood. If it was a single piece or double-piece “stake”, the writers in the first century would still use the same Greek word…”stavros”. And “stavros” always meant “stake” REGARDLESS of any possible extra piece on top. A possible cross-bar on top was INCIDENTAL. So we need to be careful not confuse shape with substance. I’m somewhere in the middle on this issue, as it is NOT an “essential” doctrine. Because whether the Redeemer was nailed and killed on a single-piece “stavros” or a cross-shaped “stavros”, the ATONEMENT is still efficacious. And it does NOT effect the doctrine of the Ransom, in one way or another. Because it had to be a PIECE OF WOOD at its base. Even IF it happened to have a cross-bar attached somewhere in the top area. It’s still a “stake” at its base and core, to begin with. It’s NOT a matter to get so hung up on (pardon the pun). And that goes to either the WT or pagan Christendom. Jesus was nailed and executed on a Roman Stavros (Torture Stake in English, regardless of the variant possible shape), and died for man’s sins, to save us from death and the grave. And from a rotten and corrupt world. And from the Devil. And to restore the “New Earth”. And give us everlasting life. And THAT is what’s important. (By the way, the Bible does not explicitly say that Jesus is the “Angel of the LORD” of Exodus EITHER. But Trinitarians say that it’s Jesus anyway. Ooops. Because the Biblical internal evidence and facts point in that direction.) Regards……..

  • November 3, 2014 at 3:23 am
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    Gabby, if you go to your Reasoning from the Scriptures under cross on page 89, on the first paragraph, the Reasoning book is supposedly saying that Jesus died on an upright pole (not a cross piece) and is using the Imperial Bible-Dictionary to prove it’s point. But look at that paragraph again and notice the 4 dots after the word ground. Those 4 dots means they left something out of that quote from the dictionary. If you google that dictionary and read what came after the word ground, you will see that that dictionary was saying just the opposite of what the Reasoning book wants you to think it said. In other words, they misquoted that dictionary. That is deceitful.

    This is a direct quote from the book “Is This Life All there Is” page 46 from 1974

    “Knowing these things, what will you do? It is obvious that the true God, who himself “the God of truth” and who hates lies, will not look with favor on persons who cling to organizations that teach falsehood. (Ps. 31:5; Proverbs 6:16-19; Rev. 21:8) And, really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you?”

    Gabby, I was baptized in 1966 and I believed when I got baptized that I was being baptized into a religion that thought it was a deadly sin to lie. I found out that there are so many lies that we are being taught from the Society, that I could write many pages of them. All of us thought that we were in the “truth” because that is what we were being told. We didn’t question it. We accepted it without testing it out because we were told we could not take anybody’s literature and we couldn’t look at any other books and watch any other preachers and on and on because if we did that then Satan was going to drag us out of the “truth”. We were told that we weren’t to have any “critical” thinking. In other words, don’t argue with the Society because they had done all the research for us and if we argued with it, we were going against the Holy Spirit because God was directing the Organization. We weren’t allowed to test it.

    When people are baptized into this religion or any other religion, they are gullible because they don’t know that much about the Bible and somebody comes along who seems to know so much more than we do, so we take their word for it that we aren’t all that smart and believe what they say. It happens in every religion, not just the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    Once a person allows themselves the idea that they aren’t that stupid after all and they start examining other publications and develop some “critical” thinking, it is only then that they can see that maybe there are other sides to the story. It’s only then that they can have their eyes opened enough to realize that they too have been lied to.

    That is where you are at. It’s very difficult to think that you could have been hood winked because the Society is so clever in their way of manipulating us with fear and intimidation.

    We were all taken in by their supposed super knowledge and insight but even in the Watchtower, it admits that the Governing Body has no special knowledge or insight that is any smarter than the rank and file.

    So, what happens when we come to that realization is, why am I supposed to put my life on the line and die (blood) for somebody else’s opinion on what the Bible says when they aren’t any smarter than I am?

    You begin to realize that the people running the Organization are only men, no smarter or wiser than you or I. You lose that feeling about them that they are like the apostles. They aren’t. They are not any smarter than you are and probably even dumber.

    When I was young and first baptized, the Society was saying in the Watchtower that God was going to resurrect the people who he killed at Sodom and Gomorrah and I can remember arguing with my mother-in-law and my husband “why would he resurrect them when he killed them?” and all they could tell me was that I couldn’t argue with the Society because that’s the way it was. Even then, when I knew practically nothing about the Bible, I knew that didn’t make any sense but these people who had been in the “truth” for years and years argued with me that “yes, they were going to be resurrected” and why, because the Society said they were. That’s why. Of course, later the Society realized how stupid that was and came out and said that Sodom and Gomorrah weren’t going to be resurrected after all like they originally thought. I also argued that it didn’t make any sense that sodomy with the same sex outside of marriage was pornea but they argued with me over that too. Why? Because the Society said it wasn’t. That’s why. Keep in mind that at that time, I was only 22 years old and didn’t know anything about the Bible, but I knew more than the Society did but I was told to keep my mouth shut and not to argue with the Society. Why was that? It was to keep me in the cult think.

    If you are not allowed to question your religion, you are in a cult. If you are punished for leaving it and taking your name off the rolls, you are in a cult. If they claim to have special insight from God, you are in a cult. Just because that cult tells you that you are not in a cult, doesn’t make it so. You should never be “afraid” to test your religion against the Bible. If you are not allowed to test it out, then you are in a cult.

  • November 3, 2014 at 6:26 am
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    They are often wrong, they are only human and not inspired like when the bible was being written.

    Get out of the false teachings, get out of worshiping men. but not because of a date for god’s sake.

    There is no comparing the other religions with ours.

  • November 3, 2014 at 9:10 am
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    Carlos, what do you mean when you say there is no comparing other religions with “ours?”

    • November 4, 2014 at 11:09 am
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      Or mine i should have said, what i mean is that governing body members have been disfellowshiped, they are brothers like everyone else. We or i, consider the members of the governing body people with all that goes along with being people, nothing else. In the congregations they belong to around the area where they live you cant tell that a governing body member is there by the actions of others. That if very diferent from all the other religious groupings.

  • November 3, 2014 at 2:42 pm
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    it’s called clarification of understanding and refinement and reform, Ano. I said already I don’t have time (or patience) to be on the merry-go-round forever…with apostate whiners and cry-babies, who need their diapers changed. Frankly, go get yourself some Gerbers. Whining about “Sodom and Gomorrah” and position on “resurrection”. I KNOW already what the Reasoning book says on “cross” and “stavros” and “upright pole”, and I said already that NO KIDDING the WT can be (sometimes) a bit too dogmatic and uptight and over-scrupulous much with (some) things. And I said already I was somewhere in the middle on the issue of “was the stavros of Jesus maybe cross-shaped, with an extra wooden bar on the top area?” I said yeah it’s possible, but it’s also possible that the “stavros” may have been a simple single piece too. But the argument about “nailS” in “hands” (wrists) gives SOME weight that His arms were OUT-STRETCHED, like on a cross-bar. Because the pagan Romans used that shape also. T-shaped, X-shaped, +-shaped, I-shaped, etc. They were all called “stavros” though, regardless, in Greek. And “stavros” NEVER ORIGINALLY meant the word “cross”, but in the first century meant “stake”. WHATEVER the variant shape or extra incident bar on top. Sighs… The problem is that Christendom overall has basically IDOLIZED the actual shape of the cross. (Especially Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism, and Episcopalianism, etc). It’s true that even a single-piece (like the sacred poles and pillars that you find idolized by the apostate Israelites in the Books of Kings etc) are also not to be idolized. But it seems easier to make an idol over the shape of the “cross” than anything else. Since that was also a symbol in pagan Egypt. Again, though, I’ve said and admitted that that doesn’t matter, since the Romans were pagans, and did crucify people on cross-shaped stakes. And it’s POSSIBLE that the Lord Jesus Christ was nailed on a cross-shaped stake too. And in some WT articles they threw in “even if He was killed on stake in the shape of a cross, that doesn’t mean we idolize that shape”…to that effect. Both pagan Christendom and the WT (in a way) have made too much over this issue. Christendom in inaccurately saying “cross cross cross” when referring the Torture Stake of our Lord, when “stavros” NEVER ORIGINALLY meant “cross”, but meant “stake, pole, post” etc. And the WT for not even really considering the notion that the “stake” MAY have had an extra cross-piece attached on top, which is possible, given that even cross-shaped stakes were called “stavros” in Greek regardless, and Romans used that shape too. But I also said, THAT IT’S NOT A MAJOR DOCTRINAL POINT IN ACTUALITY. Because if Christ was crucified on a single-piece “stake” or a cross-piece “stake”, the Ransom is still there, and the Atonement. As far as your stuff about the “blood” issue, do you know that that’s one other reason why I believe Jehovah’s witnesses are the only true Biblical Christians on earth, and are the only ones that have the total Truth? Only JWs have that down pat. And DO NOT rationalize “abstain from blood” in Acts 15 (again, the GOVERNING BODY at the time), with “earrggh, but that just meant eating it” arf arf, when it says “abstain” in general. Smearing it on one’s skin or hair was ALSO not to be done, and that’s not “eating” it. Just “abstain” period. JWs take the Bible seriously. And the prohibition on blood was before the Law, under the Law, and AFTER the Law. Noah, Moses, and Paul. In all THREE “Testaments”. Noaich, Mosaic, and Pauline. Genesis, Leviticus, and Acts. RE-ITERATED BY JEHOVAH CONSTANTLY. “No blood”. Whereas “sabbath keeping” was NOT re-iterated in Acts 15. Which is what Seventh Day Adventists don’t get. Check this out. Before the Law (Genesis 9:4), Under the Law (Leviticus 7:26), and After the Law (Acts 15:29). It says to stay away from blood. Where do you see any loop-holes or clauses about “it’s ok it it’s to save someone’s life”? Also, did you know that in recent years, JWs have been VINDICATED on this front. Not just because AIDS can be caught through transfusions, but beyond that. Diseases in general, but also it’s been known that blood transfusions (even if the blood is clean!) is DANGEROUS…because it causes “inflammatory responses” in surgery, which is BAD for surgery. And that’s one reason there’s been what’s called “BloodLESS surgery” and centers that deal with surgery WITHOUT blood. And NOT necessarily just for JWs. But in general. JWs take blood substitutes, and blood PARTS (per conscience) but NOT “whole blood”. PER GENESIS, LEVITICUS, AND ACTS. The Holy Spirit tells God’s people “abstain from blood”. NOT just the Watchtower. Regards……

    • November 3, 2014 at 2:49 pm
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      Gabby,

      Such tripe you talk about blood and fractions.

      Where do blood fractions come from, so that JW’s (per conscience) can take them?

      Some honest to goodness kind human being donated WHOLE blood so that fractions could be extracted!

      Again your foolish organisation teaches “Commands Of Men”

  • November 3, 2014 at 3:16 pm
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    Gabby, the cross is a major doctrine for Jehovah’s Witnesses. I know better and so do you. As far as blood goes, if you want to die for this religion, go right ahead and do it. I have no problem with that. It’s your life. You will be dead and forgotten by your congregation in 5 minutes. But, yay, you were faithful to the Governing Body. Aren’t you self-righteous and arrogant. You should be very proud of yourself.

  • November 3, 2014 at 3:21 pm
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    and Gabby, you better not take fractions. If you do, you are a hypocrite.

  • November 3, 2014 at 3:22 pm
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    and Gabby. Be happy with your religion and stop wasting time here trying to belittle us. The only one you are embarrassing is you.

  • November 3, 2014 at 4:34 pm
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    it’s NOT a major doctrinal point, you silly liar and belly-acher, as it was never put in the same category as “the Father alone is God” or “the dead or conscious of nothing at all” and “Armageddon” and “Paradise Restored” or “no literal eternal torture”, etc. Ano, you’re a goof-ball and idiot. The “cross” is NOT a “major doctrine” to JWs, even if they made a bit too much of it at times. IT’S NOT to be compared with things like “no literal hell-fire” or “no co-equal trinity” or “no immortal soul” or “New Earth Paradise restored” or “no blood”. It NEVER was put in the same exact category as those other things, no matter what you stupidly say or think. Apostates are notorious whiners and hallucinators, and harp on nonsense AD INFINITUM AD NAUSEUM. The “cross-shaped stake” versus “single piece stake” is NOT a major doctrinal point, dumbo, in that (as I said already more than once) regardless of the possible variant shape or incidental extra piece, THE ATONEMENT IS STILL THE SAME. The Ransom Sacrifice is still in effect. Did taht come through this time, you silly zombie-tard loser? Probably not. As for that other silly sop and loser, “Tamethyst”, blood fractions are NOT the same as “whole blood”. And are not actual “blood” per se, and it’s (as I said before) a “conscience matter” to take blood parts. But it’s NOT a conscience matter to take whole blood, but just a violation of Scripture, period. Dealing with demon-possessed apostates and Korah-like punks and flops is basically just an exercise in futility (but it does sharpen up the knowledge of the True Witness against the apostate psychos, lol). As I said, merry-go-rounds get dizzy after a while. Gotta go. Hope you come back into the Truth, one day, though, before it’s too late. Because whether you think JWs have the total truth or not or are the true religion of God, the word “Armageddon” is in ANY Bible version, and “end of the world” and “New Earth” and “making all things new” are there, and “second presence” and “conclusion of the system” are Biblical and Prophetical realities. And so is the RESURRECTION of the dead, in the New Earth, under Christ and His Kingdom. Try keeping your eyes and mind on THAT stuff, instead of the whiny jerky nonsense that you love to waste your life harping on. For real…….

  • November 3, 2014 at 4:50 pm
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    “abstain from blood” is NOT just a “command of men”, you silly cornball. It’s a command of the HOLY SPIRIT. Before the Law. Under the Law. And AFTER the Law. Noah, Moses, and Paul. It says “no blood”. You don’t see where it says “no blood parts” though. So shut your silly fart hole, kid. Don’t keep saying “commands of men” because you WANT it to be that way, so as to get around God’s clear teachings in the Holy Bible (in all three “dispensations”). You whiny dishonest jack-ass. Command of the Holy Spirit. And the WT just REPEATS GOD’S WORDS….and does NOT try to dance around or find desperate loop-holes, to escape God’s commands, laws, and judgments. “Abstain from blood” is all-encompassing. But it does NOT say “blood PARTS” anywhere. Parts of blood are technically NOT actually “blood” per se. Though you and apostate psychotics and tardos pathetically and desperately want it to be. And to Ano. No, sir, it’s apostate Korah-like (Jude 10,11) who are the “arrogant” punks, who like to rebel against the ONLY true Christian Congregation on earth, who is truly “NO PART OF THE WORLD”. Apostate pagan Christendom is mixed with the world, sick from head to foot. (Compare Isaiah 1.) JWs are free of this world’s politics, paganism, corruption, idolatry, and stupidity. And actually FOLLOW the Bible. (There’s a thought) In word and deed. Not perfectly, but overall, down pat. Wake up……

    • November 3, 2014 at 6:49 pm
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      Gabby if you really believe the command to abstain from blood includes no blood transfusions, you simply cant choose to accept fractions of blood. Blood would not be blood without those fractions. Moreover how totally hypocritical it is to say you are quite happy to accept fractions to maybe save your life, and yet totally unwilling to donate blood which would enable doctors to remove those fractions from your blood to save someone else’s life.
      Unbelievable!

  • November 3, 2014 at 6:59 pm
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    fractions by themselves are NOT actual ‘blood’. Whole blood is blood. Not “fractions”. A fraction of blood, by itself, just the fraction alone, is not enough to keep someone alive, if that’s all he had in his veins and arteries. As usual, you’re an idiot and loser…and cry-baby turdo, on these matters. Yes, “unbelievable”. That morons and pagans like you IGNORE “abstain from blood” or think it can’t include “blood transfusions”. How is a person “abstaing from blood” if he’s taking blood in his veins??????? Where exactly is the “abstaining” in that? Idiots like you willy say “errghh that was only referring to eating or drinking it” arf arf. The problem is that A) CONSUMING in general is the point of “no blood”, B) “abstain from blood” does NOT just say “by mouth only” (though you hallucinate those words there in Acts 15), and C) even if a person smeared blood on his face and hair (as was the custom of some), that would be wrong too…even if it was not “by mouth”. The pagan Christendom and Apostate argument is UTTER FAIL. “Abstain” means “abstain”. And it says “BLOOD”. It doesn’t say “blood parts” or “blood fractions”. A “fraction” of blood is NOT the definition of “blood” and is NOT actually “blood”. Whole blood (with all its parts) is what “blood” actually is. But goofball morons like you don’t get that scientific (and Biblical) fact, and don’t want to get that. Because of your scuzzy BIAS against JWs with EVERYTHING, that you can’t see, think, or hear anything correctly, and will AUTOMATICALLY find fault with everything, regardless of the actual Biblical merits of actual medical scientific facts. So yes, loser….”unbelievable!”

  • November 3, 2014 at 9:20 pm
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    the apostate whiner and idiot who wrote this post says that “goes against scripture” to have any kind of (what may be called) a “hierarchical structure”, when I already showed FROM Scripture (in my other comments) that that it’s VERY scriptural, and that he is saying is simply not true…as he misunderstands Matthew 23 about “one is your leader the Christ” even though He also told His Apostle Peter in John 21:15 “TEND MY SHEEP”, and totally ignores Acts 15, “the Apostles and Elders lay these necessary things” on all the other local congregations in other regions, and a number of other verses that show order and structure and OVERSIGHT. Check below……

    “be obedient to those taking the lead among you AND BE SUBMISSIVE” (Hebrews 13:17) “for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.” what do we do with verse, sweetie? or “the Holy Spirit and WE OURSELVES will add these NECESSARY THINGS onto you.” (Acts 15) say it means something else, so conveniently?? or “beware the rebellious talk of Korah” (Jude 11,12) relegate that as inconsequential or just for Israel when Jude was applying (under the Holy Spirit) to the Christians??? Or “may you keep submitting to those types of persons” (1 Cor 16:16) how boot dat one? and “have regard for those presiding over you” (1 Thessalonians 5:12) or “let the elders who preside well receive DOUBLE HONOR, especially those who work hard in in speaking and TEACHING.” (1 Timothy 5:17) or “He (Moses) is being entrusted with all My house” (Numbers 12:7) or “So they (Korah, Dathan, and Abiram) congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: ‘That is enough of you, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst (sound familiar?). Why then should lift yourselves up above (as leaders and “governors”) the congregation of Jehovah?” But we know what happened to Korah and his apostate crew. They were electrocuted and burned with fire. How boot dat? One thing that people learn from history is that people don’t learn from history. We hear today against JW leadership: why should you lift yourself and control things, blah blah blah. God and Christ are with us too. yeah sure. Again, all Verses of Scripture need to be considered. from both “Testaments” obviously. Important matters to think about. Human nature generally tends to rebel against authority, even God’s true appointed authority. As the cases in Scripture clearly show. (And as for the whining about disfellowshipping…”Cast him out of the church”. “Remove the wicked man from your midst” and “do not even say a greeting to such a person”> (1 Corinthians 5:13; 2 John 10) said Paul and John. How boot dat?

  • November 3, 2014 at 9:31 pm
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    the apostate whiner and idiot who wrote this post says that it “goes against scripture” to have any kind of (what may be called) a “hierarchical structure”, when I already showed FROM Scripture (in my other comments) that that it’s VERY scriptural, and that what he is saying is simply not true…as he misunderstands Matthew 23 about “one is your leader the Christ” even though He also told His Apostle Peter in John 21:15 “TEND MY SHEEP”, and totally ignores Acts 15, “the Apostles and Elders lay these necessary things”, rulings that were BINDING on all the other local congregations in other regions, and a number of other verses that show order and structure and OVERSIGHT. Check below……

    “be obedient to those taking the lead among you AND BE SUBMISSIVE” (Hebrews 13:17) “for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.” What do we do with that verse, sweetie? or “the Holy Spirit and WE OURSELVES will add these NECESSARY THINGS onto you.” (Acts 15) Say it means something else, so conveniently?? or “beware the rebellious talk of Korah” (Jude 11,12) Relegate that as inconsequential or just for Israel when Jude was applying it (under the Holy Spirit) to the Christians??? Or “may you keep submitting to those types of persons.” (1 Cor 16:16) How boot dat one? And “have regard for those presiding over you” (1 Thessalonians 5:12) or “let the elders who preside well receive DOUBLE HONOR, especially those who work hard in in speaking and TEACHING.” (1 Timothy 5:17) Or “He (Moses) is being entrusted with all My house” (Numbers 12:7) or “So they (Korah, Dathan, and Abiram) congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: ‘That is enough of you, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst (sound familiar?). Why then should you lift yourselves up above (as leaders and “governors”) the congregation of Jehovah?” But we know what happened to Korah and his apostate crew. They were electrocuted and burned with fire. How boot dat? One thing that people learn from history is that people don’t learn from history. We hear today against JW leadership: why should you lift yourself and control things, blah blah blah. God and Christ are with us too. Yeah sure. Again, all Verses of Scripture need to be considered. From both “Testaments” obviously. Important matters to think about. Human nature generally tends to rebel against authority, even God’s true appointed authority. As the cases in Scripture clearly show. (And as for the whining about disfellowshipping…”Cast him out of the church”. “Remove the wicked man from your midst” and “do not even say a greeting to such a person.” (1 Corinthians 5:13; 2 John 10) said Paul and John. How boot dat?)

    • November 4, 2014 at 12:10 am
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      Gabby is now blocked from making any further comments. I feel this exchange has been helpful, because it has shown everyone how narrow-minded Witnesses can be when they refuse to look beyond their indoctrination. However, Gabby’s comments show that she isn’t remotely interested in any meaningful dialogue with those who have opposing views. Rather she is evangelizing her bigoted religious hatred, reveling in the idea that God might “electrocute” and “burn with fire” anyone who disagrees with her Governing Body masters, and calling such ones “whiners and idiots.” I am happy to let such comments stand in perpetuity as a testament to Gabby’s current troubled state of mind, but I hope for her sake she finally wakes up. She will certainly not be allowed to swamp our site with her blinkered worldview in the meanwhile.

      • November 4, 2014 at 1:54 am
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        You are so right to block her. She has no interest in reasoning just slagging off anyone who speaks out against Watchtower. As a typical defender she attacks the person instead of calmly using scripture or even common sense. Any neutral on here will be totally appalled at the way she attacks others with constant name calling, and avoiding the points made by thinking ex JWs

  • November 4, 2014 at 2:32 am
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    I am also so glad that you are letting her comments stay on here forever to show how narrow minded she can be in that religion. I sure hope I wasn’t like that when I was a Jehovah’s Witness. She’s making a really bad name for the Organization and so I am really glad you are leaving her comments stay up. The more this kind of cult think is exposed, the quicker other sane people can recognize the insanity of it.

  • November 4, 2014 at 4:39 am
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    Gabby,

    Your arguments are faulty in their logic. Your ad hominem attacks on fellow posters prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are not following the commands of your Saviour and Mediator, Jesus Christ.

    I pity you, Gabby, I really do. You have become so utterly consumed with defending policy that you have ignored the other parts of your sacred service to CHRIST.

    I hope that one day you will wake up from your indoctrination and see the wider picture.

    Peace be with you,

    Excelsior!

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