As a young boy growing up in the Witness faith, I was taught to think of my religion as an organization with a level playing field, where everyone enjoyed an equal standing before God. Whenever photos were published of the Governing Body, it was always pointed out how approachable and “grandfatherly” they appeared – as though you could walk up to any member and ask him anything!
It was the same with elders, Circuit Overseers and District Overseers. Sure, these men all had lofty titles, but when it all boiled down to it, they were supposed to be no different from ordinary publishers – just with slightly different privileges of service.
As I grew up and began to see different facets of the organization in closer detail, it gradually became obvious that true equality among the brothers was something that existed in theory rather than in practice. A typical example of this could be seen during the twice-yearly Circuit Overseer’s visit, with all the hype and furore surrounding the arrival of a single man and his wife. I could see brothers and sisters bending over backwards to impress this supposedly humble representative of the Society – putting on elaborate dinners for him, taking him on their most impressive calls and bible studies, laughing at his awful jokes, and generally acting all prim and proper whenever in his presence.
Even so, regardless of the fact that I saw little practical evidence of true equality among the brothers, I generally accepted the idea that all Witnesses are equal – and that there is no “hierarchy” in our faith. In fact, this wasn’t just an idea circulated among publishers – it was a core concept that was actively promoted in our publications. Other religions may operate a “hierarchical structure,” but not Jehovah’s cleansed people! We are different from false religion. Hierarchical religions, most notably the Catholic Church, are to be vilified and exposed for their “worldly” organizational politics.
To demonstrate, consider the following quotes from the Society’s publications over the decades, each of which denounce the concept of a hierarchical religious structure, or describe it in disapproving terms…
“In contrast with many religious groups in Christendom, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not decide for themselves the form of spiritual government under which they operate. These sincere Christians endeavor to stick to Jehovah’s standards. Overseers among them are not put into office by some congregational, hierarchical, or presbyterian form of church government.” (w01 1/15 p13)
“Sadly, over the centuries this elevated, selfless concept of ministers as self-sacrificing preachers and teachers was distorted. What began as the Christian ministry evolved into a formal, hierarchical institution. Orders and ranks were formed, and they were invested with prestige and power and often accumulated great wealth. This created divisions.” (g00 7/8 p27)
“There was the question of who should serve as elders and deacons in the congregations. To get away from the hierarchical structure prevalent in Christendom, it was concluded that these should be elected democratically by the vote of the members of each congregation.” (w95 5/15 p22)
“As time went by, the number of those claiming to be Christians rose to the millions and then to the hundreds of millions. They developed different kinds of church government, such as hierarchical, presbyterian, and congregational. However, neither the conduct nor the beliefs of these churches reflected the rulership of Jehovah. They were not theocracies!” (w94 1/15 p14)
“Especially since 1919, the enthroned King Jesus Christ has developed a fine condition amid his followers on earth. He has placed among them ‘princes’ (Hebrew, sarim) who do indeed furnish just and loving oversight. In contrast with the oppressive and self-serving rulers so general throughout the world, the King in God’s organization has raised up responsible men who are not revered as hierarchical ‘princes of the church,’ or the like.” (w84 5/15 p16)
“This fading of Christian watchfulness prompted apostate Christians to organize themselves into a well-structured church whose eyes were no longer fixed on the coming parousia, or presence, of Christ but, rather, on dominating its members and, if possible, the world. The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: ‘The [apparent] delay of the Parousia resulted in a weakening of the imminent expectation in the early church. In this process of ‘de-eschatologizing,’ [weakening of the teaching on the ‘Last Things’] the institutional church increasingly replaced the expected Kingdom of God. The formation of the Catholic Church as a hierarchical institution is directly connected with the declining of the imminent expectation.” (w84 12/1 p6)
“In the latter part of the 19th century, the Bible Students had a democratic way of governing their congregations; they wanted to get away from an autocratic hierarchical system.” (w81 12/1 p25)
“One’s qualifying as an ‘elder’ or ‘overseer’ was not a matter of ascending a hierarchical ladder, starting with the lowest rung. Catholic theologian Legrand writes: ‘The ordained ministry is not a cursus honorum [race for honors] to be run like climbing the rungs of a hierarchical ladder. In fact, the word hierarchy is not to be found in the Bible.'” (g76 9/8 p27)
“The above-mentioned Thascius Caecilius Cyprian was the bishop of the church in Carthage, Africa. He was born about 200 C.E. and died in 258 C.E. He was a clergyman, called here ‘the father of the hierarchical system,’ one of the body of clergy that existed not much more than a century after the death of Christ’s apostles and their close associates. From that time on, throughout the ‘Dark Ages,’ into the time of the Reformation and the beginning of the Protestant Churches, and down to the present, this clergy-laity distinction has existed in Christendom.” (w75 4/1 p202)
“What wonder, then, that intelligent persons of today who are informed on the kind of rule that prevailed during the time of the popish ‘theocracy’ cannot stomach the thought of God’s rule being about to come, if God’s rule means the restoration of such a hierarchical rule!” (w68 10/15 p618)
“Who, then, is doing the discipling work today? There can be no doubt of this. It is the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. The revival of the work of making disciples is to be found in that organization in these last days. They have freed themselves from the constricting creeds and contaminating false doctrines of the nominal churches. They have freed themselves from the hierarchical, congregational and all other forms of church rule that are unscriptural and they are governed by theocratic rule.” (w66 4/1 p205)
“Interesting is the fact that, though forced to meet underground, those primitive Christians by no means kept their light hidden there. As Christ had commanded, they lifted it high on ‘lampstands’ by a work of public testimony. Though this drew the infuriated malice of many, it introduced untold hope to others who proceeded to associate with the Christian community. Charles Maitland, in The Church in the Catacombs, singles out this proselytizing nature of the Christians as the greatest aggravating factor of their persecution, because of which other charges were trumped up by the authorities. Their harmlessness can be seen in that for the mere reason of secretly celebrating the Lord’s Supper they suffered an official ban. From what can be told by the ancient inscriptions those Christians scorned the hierarchical structure which papal Rome copied from pagan Rome.” (w51 8/15 p486)
“With such a breadth of meaning and variety of application of the Hebrew word sar we can appreciate how the heavenly King reigning in righteousness could have his visible servants on the earth during this perilous time and how these would occupy the position corresponding with what Isaiah 32:1 speaks of as princes (sarím). They would not hold such princely office inside the political systems of this world, because, although they are in the world, they are no part of the world. Neither would they have any such combined political, hierarchical offices such as the higher clergy of the Roman Catholic religious system hold, so that they are called ‘princes of the church.'” (w51 12/1 p721)
As can be clearly seen from the above quotes, the hierarchical structure long-ago adopted by the Catholic Church has been routinely denounced by the Society as unscriptural, autocratic, divisive and prone to encouraging corruption.
But what is a hierarchy? One definition describes it as: “an organizational structure where every entity in the organization, except one, is subordinate to a single other entity. This arrangement is a form of a hierarchy.” This unmistakably describes the Catholic Church, with the Pope at the top – answerable to no one. Certainly in all my years growing up in the organization I never thought of it as a fair way of describing the organizational structure of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After all, we are God’s true organization, and therefore unique from all other religions! We have Christ as our leader, and we receive instruction from God’s holy spirit through the Faithful Slave and its representative Governing Body!
Reality sinks in
Then in 2011 I woke up and was finally able to see the organization for what it truly is – just one of many hierarchical Christian denominations claiming to have the sole backing of God. Once I learned to reason for myself, I could plainly see that there was absolutely no relationship between the Faithful and Discreet Slave class (those claiming to be anointed) and the Governing Body, who claimed to humbly serve as their representatives. In reality, it was the small number of men on the Governing Body who were pulling all the strings, without conferring with anyone else. The Faithful Slave teaching was just their “cover story.”
Then, in October last year (2012), things took an unexpected twist. The Governing Body ditched the idea that all anointed ones make up the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and declared that only they could be so identified. In making this change, many would argue that they were only acknowledging what was already widely recognized – that the Governing Body are the only ones dispensing “spiritual food,” and have been for some time. Ordinary anointed ones have never really had any say in what is published in the literature.
Though somewhat predictable, for myself and many like-minded individuals this change was profound. The Society had, without great fanfare, neatly removed the last distinction between themselves and other hierarchical religions such as the Catholic Church. Previously, they had hidden behind the Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine as an excuse to wield power. Now it was surplus to requirements. They declared themselves to be God’s sole channel, giving themselves Pope-like authority in the process.
The changes start to take effect
And it wasn’t long before this authority started to be drilled home unmistakably in our literature. Take a look at this recent illustration from the April 13th Watchtower on page 29…
It doesn’t take a genius to see what is being depicted in this illustration. This is a clear and unambiguous example of a hierarchy – right down to the numbering of the various groups or positions. It is a list of the various operational elements of the Watch Tower Society in a descending order of importance. When you look closely, you notice that even the chairs are more comfortable the higher up the ladder you happen to be! Governing Body members get plush leather executive chairs, while branch office members must make do with plain office swivel chairs. If you are an elder, you can consider yourself lucky to get a school canteen chair! Evidently the more privileged you are in God’s organization, the more seat padding you require.
But there are other things that are noticeable about this illustration on close inspection. You notice that the current Governing Body members have vainly had their likenesses depicted in the illustration so that, when you look closely enough, they are individually recognizable.
Perhaps of most striking significance is the one notable absentee from the illustration – Jesus Christ. True, the Society would likely argue that this is a picture depicting the earthly part of God’s organization, and Christ is in the heavenly part. Even so, this hasn’t stopped the Society from depicting Jehovah on his heavenly chariot in the same illustration. Even some of the angels are present. So why no Jesus? Especially if he is supposed to be “head of the congregation?” (Eph. 5:23)
The answer is simple. Christ plays no role whatsoever in this organization and never actually has. His absence from this illustration may well be an oversight, but it is a telling one. The Governing Body is well and truly in charge, and they want us to know it. They take their orders from nobody but themselves. In this way, they are really no different from the Pope. In fact, take a look at this diagram I have prepared, which I believe demonstrates quite clearly that the hierarchical structures of the Catholic Church and Watch Tower Society are now eerily similar.
If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the above diagram may seem shocking, but it accurately reflects the way things truly are in the organization. It also shows how organizationally similar the Watch Tower Society is to the Catholic Church – the very religion it has spent decades criticizing.
Furthermore, you may be shocked to learn that, in at least one court case, Watchtower lawyers have openly admitted that the religion IS a hierarchy just like the Catholic Church. In a recent lawsuit surrounding an ugly power struggle in the Menlo Park congregation, California, a Watchtower attorney by the name of Calvin Rouse told a judge: “We are a hierarchical religion just like the Catholic Church.” A clipping of this shocking statement from the official court manuscript may be viewed below. If you would like to read more about the case in question and download the manuscript, you can do so by clicking here.
And so, even if the Society can’t admit to being a hierarchy in writing (mostly due to the stigma it has attached to that word over the decades), it is quite open about its hierarchical nature in illustrations and when pressed on the matter in a court of law.
Does it matter?
Perhaps, having considered the above information, you are saying to yourself: “But things have always been like this. Why is it such a big deal?” Well, the fact that the Watch Tower Society is a hierarchy is significant for two reasons. Firstly, because a hierarchical structure goes against scripture, and secondly, because they criticize other religious organizations for using the exact same system.
Consider Christ’s words at Matthew 23:6-12
“They [the Pharisees] like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (New World Translation)
By embracing a system where certain brothers in responsible positions are exalted above others, the Society has organized itself in direct contradiction of Christ’s words above. As seen in the Watchtower illustration, the Governing Body has now occupied the most exalted position – just a nudge away from heaven! Everyone else is beneath them. Not only that, everyone must humble themselves before the Governing Body by obeying everything they say. Those who don’t obey them or recognise their leadership are to be disfellowshipped as “apostates” and shunned by their Witness relatives.
Utter Hypocrisy
It is also worth remembering the countless instances over many decades where the Society has denounced the Catholic Church for operating as a hierarchy. Now the “Faithful Slave” doctrine has been re-written, and what do we see? The Watch Tower Society now has an almost identical organizational structure to the religion it has spent decades criticizing – even claiming to be fulfilling prophecy in the process (in the Revelation Climax book). Yes, our organization really is no different from any other Christian denomination, and the hypocrisy of it all is breathtaking.
The whole thing reminds me of the much-loved parable “Animal Farm” by George Orwell, which I was taught in school. Intended as a cautionary warning against communism, Orwell’s story describes an uprising in which a group of animals seize control of their own farm by ousting their abusive farmer overlord. However, once the animals gain control, gradually the “top” animals who are in charge (the pigs) become corrupt. They begin with a commandment that reads “all animals are equal,” but gradually, over a period of time, this is changed to read “all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” By the end of the story, the pigs become just as abusive as the farmer they ousted.
The overall message of Orwell’s short story is that “power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” When you look at the Governing Body and the way they are gradually maneuvering doctrine to further exalt their position in the organization, it is not difficult to draw parallels with the pigs in Animal Farm. If you haven’t yet read the story, you can download it as a PDF on this link.
A reason to stop and ponder
In conclusion, I believe that thinking Witnesses all over the world need to pause and meditate on page 29 of the April 15th 2013 Watchtower. They need to look long and hard at that illustration and ask themselves the following difficult questions:
- Is this really what I dedicated my life to serve when I got baptized?
- Are Jehovah’s Witnesses really any different from any other religion if they have such a clearly defined hierarchy, which is almost identical to the Catholic Church?
- How can the Governing Body justify performing such a huge u-turn by awarding itself Pope-like status?
- Why observe their command to not investigate objective information about the organization when it is changing before my very eyes into something I can no longer respect or admire?
“And yes i do have the right to do all that you mentioned.”
You have the right to convince posters on this website to refuse medical treatment? I don’t think so.
“I am talking in the context of introducing the fluid in the body not the function it performs.”
But the function is crucial, and depends on HOW and WHERE the fluid is introduced to the body.
If you’re looking for a biblical precedent for accepting blood transfusions, there are actually two.
I’ve already mentioned Jesus’ arguments with the pharisees over whether healing (saving human life) was acceptable on the Sabbath. To accomplish the healing you had to break God’s law by doing work, but the ends justified the means. The pharisees (like the Governing Body) were so cruel and unmerciful that they thought the strict observance of the law was more important than human life.
Secondly there is the issue of Saul’s soldiers eating blood but NOT being punished for it because they were in a “desperate situation.” There is a Questions From Readers article (w95 4/15 p31) which actually says: “God may also have taken into account that Saul’s rash oath had pressed his men into that desperate situation.” If being about to lose your life if you don’t accept certain medical treatment isn’t a “desperate situation,” I don’t know what is.
Regardless of the above, I sense you’re not interested in truth or mercy but in following the commands of your Brooklyn leaders.
Cedar,
Thanks for the comments,
I say what i think ans suddenly i am convincing posters to refuse blood.
I give people more credit than that,
they are not fickle people
The watchtower said and they all did, i say and they all run to do what i say.
Man up!
You have to make decisions for yourself and stop crying and blaming others.
Your refusal to listen and just be civil leaves a lot to be desired.
You are just looking for an excuse to expel me from the site like you first did.
Peter, I can’t believe you can accuse me of not being civil and then tell me to “man up” and stop crying in the same email. Perhaps you should practice what you preach and start being more civil and respectful yourself. As I’ve repeatedly said, you should do your research before making arguments you know nothing about. That’s all I’ve been saying all along, but apparently you can’t be bothered to explore other people’s side of the argument before telling people what to think and believe on an emotive subject. That is what I call ignorance.
Peter,
Caught in your own cunning, that is the point we all are trying to make on here. The WT Soc’s opinions would not matter so much if people’s lives didn’t depend on them. Also their unkind and hateful attitude to those who wish to disagree with them over the blood issues shows they no nothing of christian attitudes.
Tamethyst
Peter,
How about I could extract all the minerals, particles and everything etc out of a pint of blood, it’d just be water left. Would you drink it?
T
Peter, atheists are on the move because of the arrogance of organised religion. 911 showed us what can happen when zealotry spirals out of control.
The only difference in the WTBTS is that its warfare is an internal strategy (Theocratic War Strategy). There have been many many costly ‘mistakes’ to adherents of this religion. Right now, children are in the spotlight. Looking back, are you really surprised that the child abuse thing would not affect “God’s Organisation”? What’s going on then? The congregation was meant to be a haven, not a hell.
Is God leading his people, or is the influence of human thinking far outweighing the ability of God to run his own organisation?
Obviously the WTBTS has no desire to count the cost to individuals in its care. It seems to see them as acceptable ‘collateral damage’ to be sacrificed for higher ideals.
Do you think human sacrifice is acceptable, Peter?
Frank
As to the blood issue, I see this as a simple equation. Either we allow blood transfusion to be a Christian’s conscience decision, or we strictly adhere to what the Bible says about blood: it uses the word ABSTAIN! ‘Abstain’ is a absolute term. If one takes fractions, one is not abstaining. That is all there is to it. But, of course, no GB member could have travelled unless they accepted inoculations with blood fractions in them. That’s, I believe, how the fractions policy came about.
Can anyone show me in the Bible where any prohibition made on blood unambiguously refers to human blood? Leviticus 17 is about animal blood, so why should Acts 15 be any different.
Peter?
Frank
The book of acts says abstain from blood not only animal blood.
Leviticus 17:10 says any kind of blood
It is never good to be unkind and or hateful because a person disagrees with you.
I disagree on many things and i am as vocal with the brothers as i am here, i try to be fair.
It seems to me that certain people just loose themselves in a group in this case JW’S.
I have never thought that all i was told was the truth, personal opinions and alike are just that.
I learned very early that The GB was wrong about certain things, like the 1935 deal, and most people that this subject pertained to thought the same, the is wrong and will get it right and they did eventually.
Reasoning: the date is not in the bible
they cant possible know what God thinks other than what is written in the scriptures.
I know what i feel, so what did most people do, they partook of the emblems despite the GB
people should be able to recognize an opinion from a Bible teaching
☺
Hello all.
If you remove the ASSUMPTION that the information in the bible is true or accurate, your analysis becomes much more straight forward and simple.
Peter: “The book of acts says abstain from blood not only animal blood.
Leviticus 17:10 says any kind of blood”
You here state the fundamentalist view. Two things occur:
(1) There are no laws directly prohibiting cannibalism. How then can we discern that the writer of Leviticus had human blood in mind or not.
(2) You have snookered yourself because if anyone eats ANY SORT OF BLOOD they would be in a disapproved position before the Creator, why would this not include fractions?
Have you ever swallowed blood after a tooth extraction, Peter? How long do you go into depression after such an ungodly act?
Within the context of the passage, the subject is animal killing. Where is the evidence it is anything other than this?
Frank
Frank,
Leviticus says to abstain from ANY kind of blood, ANY KIND.
and No i am not referring to you as unkind, and yes i agree with you that fractions to me is Blood therefore i do not accept any fragments.
When you swallow blood after a tooth extraction it does not equal a blood transfusion, the blood never leaves yr body, etc.
Animal killings, or any sort of Blood?
I agree with you Frank, that the GB has stumbled many in presuming things and basically speaking for God sometimes.
I remember NO More incorporation, said one brother regarding the anointed, so yes they have made many mistakes and it will get worse until the bad wheat is separated from the good.
If you are referring to me as being “unkind” etc, then the next thing is you’ll tell me I’m persecuting you (you won’t be the first). The fact is, logic will nearly always outfox emotion. We are living in a time when ancient thinking must also be examined under the microscope. If the arguments fail, accept that, Peter. The Dying Duck routine fails to impress. If you have an argument, make it.
The GB are guilty of mistakes, but also very costly presumptions (far more than can be accounted to as genuine mistakes). Getting heated over human “revelations” has stumbled many a brother and sister, ruined futures, lost fortunes and taken present hopes away.
What about Sparlock? How many a child’s childhood will now suffer because, if they reject the Harry Potter movies, they will have to throw out their Mary Poppins and Star wars movies too! The Sparlock Generation will likely not know how to make healthy decisions about important matters that effect their futures because they will need to check with a higher authority to know how to make a move. Guilt will hold them back.
This is but one modern example that will have a costly future for some. It is avoidable.
Frank
Hi AssumeNothing – Intriguing name. I can’t even get a straight answer for why the god of the Old Testament ordered the serial killing of innocent children from Christian apologists, I think we can safely assume you are right in your conclusion. Sad. I’m sure I’m not the only agnostic who comes here to find a glimmer of hope.
Of course, as the conscience begins to prick the faithful, the old chestnut of being persecuted for one’s faith inevitably rises. Tedious
Frank
It is exciting to see all this activity. I do not personally care either way on this matter about blood. The bible is referring to animal sacrifice to idols which implies to other gods not to the monotheistic god in the bible. Well next it refers to blood but it does not mention do not drink the blood of men does it? It is after the sacrifice of animals which was not uncommon to have people drinking animal blood too. This was considered disgraceful because the blood of a lamb was given to the gods or earthly people drank of it. Blood was considered sacred because it was the life force of animals and humans. When a sacrifice to the one and only god was done this was acceptable according to the law. Blood was used in bible times and still today as a source of nutrition in some parts of the world. Blood is just iron and proteins with or without oxygen attached. It can carry toxins or healing properties to various areas of the body. It is our bodies waterways and carries toxins to the areas of the body that get rid of them and moves other macro and micro particles to other areas of the body. We are made of about 3/4 of water which we ingest daily or gather from food to supply the lube the body needs. Since diseases use these waterways or bloodstreams to move about it would make sense they would consider abstaining from it. The bible lists many ways in order to protect oneself from disease and blood is one of those on the list.
In Bible times or Roman times viruses and bacteria were not known by what we consider them today. In those times they were considered demons or unclean spirits that possessed people. What they really thought that? Yes they did. They believed that those that drank the blood of an animal could catch these demons (diseases). It was not a common practice to drink another persons blood so listing it was not needed or implied in the biblical texts. The argument for Jehovah’s Witnesses is solely based on those laws for abstaining from drinking animal blood. It is clearly another misidentified biblical statement in which the bible is clearly saying one thing and an organization is stating another. I do agree that blood should be cleaned before another receives it but for those science buffs we all know human blood is clearly different from animal blood.
Cedars is right about one thing when he tells you posters to research. I laugh when I think about the reasons I did things as a JW today. The scholars of today refers to biblical texts as full of magical thinking philosophies. I you followed the bibles laws to the letter today you would likely be imprisoned on acts of animal cruelty to murder. I personally see it as a confused time in history where superstition was common and today it is folklore and myths. Never believe my words DO YOUR RESEARCH.
Peter: “When you swallow blood after a tooth extraction it does not equal a blood transfusion, the blood never leaves yr body, etc.”
So you have no objection to sucking the blood from a cut on your finger then, Peter?
Secondly, does it not bother you that the WTBTS teaches that blood fractions are acceptable despite the Bible stating that true abstinence is necessary? By extension, with all the known problems, avoidable stumblings, the victims of child abuse, and even the occasional claimed suicide (forced social shunning of disfellowshipped ones) – do you not believe that there is a conflict of interest with a religion’s claim to hold to the preciousness of blood and then to express themselves indifferently about evidently causing bloodguilt?
You are right. Intimidation reaches even this degree as you can read it yourself in their OWN publications. Let me quote w08 10/15 p. 23 par. 10 under a subtitle “Do You Take the Lead in Showing Honor?”.
DB, the paragraph reads “Some have reasoned that since Jesus told his disciples “all you are brothers,” there should be no positions of authority in the Christian congregation. (Matt. 23:8) However, both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures have numerous examples of men who exercised authority given to them by God. The history of the patriarchs, judges, and kings among the ancient Hebrews provides ample evidence that Jehovah gives direction through human representatives. When the people did not properly honor the appointed individuals, they were disciplined by Jehovah.—2 Ki. 1:2-17; 2:19, 23, 24.”.
It is sad to observe how the WTBS uses the bible as a useful tool of intimidation. The verses they have provided include 2 Kings (2 Kings 2:23-24) . . .And he proceeded to go up from there to Beth′el. As he was going up on the way, there were small boys that came out from the city and began to jeer him and that kept saying to him: “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” Finally he turned behind him and saw them and called down evil upon them in the name of Jehovah. Then two she-bears came out from the woods and went tearing to pieces forty-two children of their number”.
CAN YOU GRASP THE DEGREE OF THEIR INTIMIDATION!!!
Hi Frank,
Thanks for the welcoming post. In truth I’m an agnostic atheist, but people seem to think that means atheist “lite”.I once had a Jehovah’s Witness on an anonymous forum tell me I was confused and should call the kingdom hall and arrange a study. When I told her that I was raised as a witness and would never consider associating with them on an intimate level again, that was the last I ever heard from her.
Anyway I’d like to elaborate on my thesis a bit just to get people thinking critically, and if there are witnesses here bold enough to read it, then I hope they take it seriously.
In it’s very foundation, religion is a mistaken negation of the scientific method. If we could summarize the scientific method into one sentence, it would look something like this: “Here are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?” If we could summarize religion (at least the Abrahamic ones) into one sentence, it would look like this: “Here are the conclusions. What facts can we find to support them?” It’s completely backwards. The difference is subtle, but significant. The first approach is used to establish knowledge of what was previously unknown, the second assumes knowledge, and is instead looking for means to prove it to others. And to the untrained ear, an individual who is an advocate of the religious method and who speaks eloquently, can sound just as convincing as someone who uses the scientific method.
For example: Conclusion – “The end is close”. How can we justify this conclusion? Well first thing we need to do is convince our audience that the information in the bible is true and accurate. If reasoning fails, we should appeal to their emotions, and sound as though we are convinced ourselves(This is one of the objectives of the Theocratic Ministry School). Once you’ve established someones faith in the bible, now all you have to do is select scriptures about the “last days” such as Matthew 24 and 2 Timothy 3. What these scriptures describe has in reality occurred since the inception of civilization, but that same eloquent individual who speaks with authority merely has to say “yes, but never has it occurred all at the same time” without providing any evidence, and arbitrarily pick news articles from current events to convince someone that Armaggedon is right around the corner, and they don’t have time stop and question these authoritative figures because if they did it could cost them their lives.
The entire doctrine is designed to STOP people from thinking. “Fully rely on God”. “Don’t lean on your own understanding”. “Jehovah and Jesus trust the faithful and discreet slave. Shouldn’t you?” “Time is short, brother’s and sisters”. “The end is close”. “There is only ONE channel of communication” “Should we waste time pursuing higher education? Would our time not be better spent in the ministry?” (Guess what people learn how to do when pursuing higher education? Think critically. Coincidence?) Etc, etc.
I’ve had Witnesses ask me “So what do you think this world is coming to then?” As if the notion that there is some grand scheme of things in the universe should be taken for granted, and if it’s not what they believe, then it must be some alternative. I recall discussing evolution with one, and when he failed to get his point across, he attempted to shift the discussion to the failings of other religious systems. These occurrences is evidence of their close-mindedness, their narrow objective of using the discussion to convert you, or failing that, reinforce their ideas in their own minds, and their tendencies to try to control the direction of the discussion.
And all these social constructs, behavioral patterns, and marketing ploys are based on the assumption that the bible is true.
Peace.
hakisimana
See the science books from the same year and read what is said in them, it does not apply today, people learn and grow.
Don’t treat change as a bad thing it’s a good thing, progress.
1967 yeah right 40 years ago…
The witnesses follow what the bible says, if you ask them a question like the one you referred to, they are going to say what they think, and from 1967 to know a lot of water has passed under the bridge.
I see that you are assuming that the bible is false and fake.
I believe it is the Word Of Jehovah God.
Thanks for the comment
♥
Sorry guys, I’ve banned Peter. I can only put up with trolls for so long. We tried to help him, but he has no interest in objectively exploring the opinions of others, so I won’t let him graffiti this site with his indoctrinated crap.
Totally agree with you Cedars. He had so much information giving to him from all of us and he just brushed it off as non consequential. Why can’t JWs just address comments made to them. Instead they just think ‘Oh he’s an apostate, I wont debate with him.’ His comment about, as a JW he knows more about the org than we do made me laugh. Most JWs have no idea whatsoever about information ex JWs have found out since they left the org.
Hi AssumeNothing. What an interesting chap you are.
Paragraph 1: Finally someone who understands the modern use of the word ‘atheist.’ By combining agnostic and atheist you obviously mean you don’t know but lean towards being atheist (“atheist” meaning that there is no good reason, judged from evidence in the material universe, that we need to believe in the existence of God). Romans 1:20 is a statement with no evidence etc.
I’m a theistic agnostic with hopes that someone can rescue God from the defamatory statements made in the Bible that are inconsistent with the claims he makes about himself (Biblically). So far, no one’s been able to pull this sword out of the stone.
Paragraph 3: Religion presumes its own humility; science demonstrates it by its own method of discovery. What you say reminds me of two methods of Biblical deduction: Exegesis: the study of a holy book to discover the will of the writer, and: Eisegesis: Going on a cherry-picking expedition to support human ideas of what they hope or desire God to say (End Time prophecies, divine appointments etc). The WTBTS have, I believe, submitted to the former in all their genuinely Bible-based teachings, and resorted to the latter when forming religious policies that have been costly to those naive enough not to have questioned them.
Paragraph 4: The conveyance of religious propaganda is not ‘convincing argument’ but carefully chosen words and venues where this viewpoint can be regularly dispensed.
Paragraph 5: When the term, “Bible-trained conscience” is repeated over and over, it becomes, “A conscience trained in religious doctrine; what we say you should think.” Advertising uses the same methodology.
I don’t think we’re miles apart, you and I. Agnosticism is open-mindedness, not “namby pamby fence-sitting” as Richard Dawkins puts it. This is just about the only thing I disagree with him on.
Frank
Peter: “See the science books from the same year and read what is said in them, it does not apply today, people learn and grow.
Don’t treat change as a bad thing it’s a good thing, progress.
1967 yeah right 40 years ago…
The witnesses follow what the bible says, if you ask them a question like the one you referred to, they are going to say what they think, and from 1967 to know a lot of water has passed under the bridge.”
See, AssumeNothing…this is what I’m talking about. Naive Peter, tries to compare scientific discovery with the religious fumbling attempts to pre-empt the will of God. For 9 years Christ’s admonition that no-one knew the day nor the hour of the End (or year [“times or seasons”]) was ignored in favour of human desire. The fact is, the Biblical ‘evidence’ was there and it was ignored, causing stumbling blocks and financial loss for thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses who chose not to question this. It’s happening now under the issue of child abuse.
Yes, science progresses, but it doesn’t make salvation-claims or even that it is divinely appointed. It just does what it does by an honest method of discovery.
The further back you go in WTBTS publications the more it becomes clear they did believe all information came directly from on high. This over-confidence (human pride) has become embarrassment. I’d take the scientific method over eisegesis any day.
Frank
PS. Yes Peter, but for the grace of God go I. It wasn’t just water that passed under the bridge; hopes and dreams did to. Modern Witnesses haven’t had to contend with that BS, but many did.
Where’s the GENUINE acknowledgement, let alone an apology for presumption? Old science gets placed in books to view the journey to discovery. The WTBTS makes every attempt to keep ‘old theology’ from modern ears along with the scandals.
Great article.
Hey, I don’t know if it’s mentioned already, but this whole process smacks of the one in Animal Farm.
Julia, all organisations end up like Animal Farm, whatever the pretensions. It is human, particularly male.
And Jesus must be very angry about this one, or at least sad.
Good job Cedars. I envy your patience. I don’t know how you find the time!
The one thing the witnesses have that they believe is exclusive to the Jehovah’s Witnesses is the preaching of the Good News to the most distant parts of the Earth, but, YHWH has most gratiously provided us with the internet. Now a person can get an excellent Bible education on their own, and free, that rivals any Bible college.
The preaching is being done too in cyberspace. The Witnesses are becoming obsolete. It is true that the personal attention they provide for their Bible study students is superior to the unfeeling internet, but is their love real? I don’t think so. It can not be real when they use an ambiguous bible verse against their family and friends that probably is solely for the heavenly ones and warning against the antichrist, not petty offenses. It’s a nightmare.
God bless you Cedars
We are told this person’s blood will be asked back from us if we don’t study with them. That’s the truth.
Nancy, I’m glad to see humanity is waking up to the difference between genuine Bible study and the desire to twist Scripture to suit a personal agenda. If you’re interested, the technical words are exegesis and eisegesis.
It is a pity that the WTBTS had such noble beginnings, but the greater the power (see the latest “new light”) and longer it is possessed, the more self-absorbed the wielders get. Religion is by its nature solipsistic. In short, they suffer the Narcissus syndrome.
Frank
Thank you. I like fancy words too! ;) The difference I see between The JWs and the Catholics who the witnesses censure is numbers. The Catholics have one pope….bad. The Jehovah’s Witnesses had twelve governing body members…good?. The Catholics counts anyone who they can find that calls them self Catholic as Catholics. The Jehovah’s Witnesses will only count those who are in good standing (many times too subjective for good taste) as Witnesses. Overly confident I think. Thanks Frank. God bless you. Keep up the good work!
I’ve been a JW for 14 years and I’ve seen so much good among them truly, because there are good and sincere people in every organisation. I think it’s fair to the Witnesses to acknowledge that the majority that I know of are serving from pure motives, even though they might be misled as to what constitutes salvation.
Many witnesses I know love what the WTS has done for their lives by showing them stuff from the Bible, for instance the sister who was told all her life by the Catholic church she is going to hell now knows that’s not the case. This is one example. Perhaps they are going to ‘gehenna’ though I don’t believe it; I believe the ones misleading them are the real culprits who will be called to account.
Jesus said the ones who do his Father’s will are his true followers, and you can find people who truly live that among the Witnesses as well as in other denominations. Time will truly tell. So for now, I think we should all love everybody, have kind discussions on our similarities and differences, and remember that opinions are like fingerprints: everybody has them.
To be honest, Nancy, it is getting harder to see the difference between the two organisations you cite. The child abuse issue has brought this uncanny similarity to light. What’s the difference between moving abusive priests from one diocese to another and constructing a system where abusive congregation members can move from one congregation to another almost without notice. It’s all the same to the victims.
Priests give absolution of sin, elders absolve ‘sinful’ members by judging their ‘repentance.’ Much difference?
All Catholics look to the human head of their church for truth…need I go on?
Frank
Hi Julia,
That’s a great approach to take. Once we realise that people are the same no matter whether they belong to a certain religion or not, then we feel much closer to all people. Although I can never agree with what JW’s believe, and despite finding out the countless shocking things about the WTS, I have a much greater respect for JW’s as people.
However, although the WTS seems to have taught many people stuff from the Bible, it’s clear from honest and meticulous research that a large portion of what they “teach” is completely incorrect. The fact that they have to resort to indoctrination techniques and flawed logic to “prove” their points show this. Sadly, when JW’s discover this, they gradually realise that they have to start all over again when it comes to learning about the Bible.
For example, regarding “Gehenna” and “Hades/Hell”; Jesus mentions them both a number of times, and also the “eternal fire” where the devil and sinners are said to go forever
(Matt 25:41-42). That line is even in the NWT version, so I guess the WTS must have missed that one! I agree with you, it’s horrible when people are told they are “going to hell”, but unfortunately this concept is in the Bible, we can’t change that. I don’t believe the concept myself though, so I guess I don’t believe the Bible itself.
I agree with you though, I’d like to think that, if Jesus is correct about his “other sheep” metaphor, true believers can be found in all religions – or non-religious people for that matter – because if you follow God’s commandments (love enemies, love neighbours etc etc), then you are a follower of Christ, whether you know it or not.
Peter,
Perhaps the one pertinent comment you have made is “God makes a fool out of men who try to out guess him.”
Considering the Watchtower Society has a 133 year history of “out guessing God” (13 decades of failed WT interpretation of prophecy, never mind all the other ‘human thinking’ dressed up to appear ‘theocratic’) you could be so right that what is happening now (the humiliating court cases in America and Australia, the global exposure in the media spotlight) is timely and just retribution from God for taking His Name in vain.
And perhaps it is the Watchtower that refuses to be corrected?
Despite everything, it still persists in repeating the same spurious claims to be ‘the only Organization approved by God’.
The proof of their origins is in their own words.
Faithful & Discreet Slave points to 1 Corinthians 4:1&2 about stewards holding ‘understanding’ of sacred secrets!Cross referencing to Matthew 13:11. Saying “It is granted to you to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of heavens, BUT to those people it was not granted”!
Then goes on to say “whoever has , more will be given him and abound more. Whoever does not have, even what he does have
will be taken from him”.
Therefore, this is solid proof that the WT does NOT have what was
“granted” or they would be abounding more and more in the
‘Truths’ of sacred secrets. Rather, than apologizing for making
mistakes out of human error and presumption!
And more and more, we can see the WT losing what it had of
credibility in its teachings, reputation and so called concern for
it’s young sheep that get continually neglected at the hands of
wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Hence, clear proof, that this organisation does not have God’s approval!
Hi DB
In regard to your statement “That line is even in the NWT version, so I guess the WTS must have missed that one! I agree with you, it’s horrible when people are told they are “going to hell”, but unfortunately this concept is in the Bible, we can’t change that. I don’t believe the concept myself though, so I guess I don’t believe the Bible itself.” -What does all that nonsense mean?
One thing at least that the Bible students/JW’s did get right is that there is no HELL coz when you’re dead, you’re dead.
Tamethyst
I agree with you Tamethyst. I believe what the Bible says about eternal fire means eternal destructions, just as Sheol/Hades/Hell is just being dead or non-existent as having died. There is a scripture even that Jesus was left in Sheol/Hades/Hell for those three days, and I hardly think he was condemned to Satan’s realm of fire and brimstone!
Excellent article. I definitely agree. I wish we have a secular school for the great crowd. The anointed ones will go to heaven. The true religion before was gone after the apostle John died. The problem in our organization is there are many apostates and impostors actively participating in the kingdom ministry. If the time will come when all the anointed will pass away, those elders and other witnesses that pretend as active witnesses of Jehovah will exercise their kingship inside the organization and bully those they hate. They are doing it right now. I personally had a talk with a son of a former elder and c.o. and d.o., he told me from his heart that he no longer believe that there is a true religion. He just regularly attend meetings and the minister service because that’s how he was brought up. I don’t know when all these things will end. I feel this a torture for the innocent JWs. I have felt the same way as Paul in Rome did.
@ Melca! Glad someone says this! Especially about children of witnesses who are just along for the ride to please parents.
In my former congregation, many decent brothers were passed over for leading positions; While elder sons got ‘cherry picked’.
One elder I was working with at the time got a call from his son.
He told me his son was delusional and wanted to leave the organisation as he didnt believe. His father convinced him to stay.
The son most likely is still serving as a ministerial servant under
duress to please his father.
Another elders son who is a ministerial servant at that time was overheard to be jealous of another ministerial servant getting better
privileges. Reminds me of the priest showing favouritism to his two
sons who got thought above their station.
Hi Tamethyst and Julia,
Wow Tamethyst, thanks for being so… blunt! I’ve read what I wrote, and yes, it isn’t very clear what I meant. I’m usually pretty careful what I write here, as it’s so easy to misunderstand what others write, so I’ll do my best to explain what I was trying to say.
Firstly, like both of you, I do NOT believe there is a REAL hell or lake of fire and brimstone. I think that when a person dies, they stay dead, but I still try to keep an open mind, because no matter what anyone says happens, if we’re honest, none of us can know for sure. Therefore, in terms of my personal belief, I think the WTS is likely correct in terms of what happens to us when we die, but it is correct for the wrong reasons. In terms of my research with the Bible, I’m sure “Sheol/Hades/Hell” and the “Lake of Fire” are places and concepts clearly taught in the Bible.
Of course, you both might have done more research than me, in which case you’ll know more than I do, so I’ll explain as briefly as I can why I’ve come to that conclusion in another message, and if you (or anyone else) can please correct me where I’ve gone wrong, I’d be very grateful.
Regards.
Hi Julia and Tamethyst,
If you or anyone else can show me if I’ve missed anything in my research or can correct me, then please let me know, as I’m only interested in getting the facts.
Firstly, according to my research, “Sheol/Hades/Hell” and “Gehenna/Lake of Fire and Brimstone” are two completely different concepts. They became mixed together in the Western world thanks to the King James Bible’s translation of both “Sheol/Hades” and “Gehenna” into English as “Hell”, thus combining the two concepts and confusing the issue. In early Jewish tradition “Sheol” is the abode of the dead or underworld, a place where all people went to when they died (Ezekiel 26:19-21) and (Job 26:5) – regarding these passages, how can the dead be “afraid” or “tremble” if they are conscious of nothing, or be beneath the earth if it’s oblivion? Also in (Isaiah 14:9) how could “Sheol” be “astir to greet the arrival” of the King of Babylon when he dies? Therefore Julia, according to the Bible, when Jesus went to “Sheol/Hades/Hell” he didn’t go to “Gehenna/lake of fire and brimstone” but instead to the underworld/Sheol, hence his “descent”. Some suggest that he preached the “Gospel” to the dead in “Sheol/Hades/Hell”. Jewish belief is so diverse that there is no definitive answer to what “Sheol” exactly was, but it clearly wasn’t oblivion/non-consciousness.
With regard to “Gehenna/Lake of Fire and Brimstone”, if this concept is essentially oblivion in the Bible, why is it referred as an actual place called the “eternal lake of fire”? In (Matt 25:41-42) Jesus says that this “eternal fire” is “prepared” for the devil and his angels, and all unrepentant sinners too. Why does oblivion/non-consciousness need to be “prepared”? In the Bible “Gehenna” is considered a place of “eternal fire”, not oblivion: eg. (Mark 9:43-45) and (Rev 14:11) and (Rev 20:7-15). In contrast, according to Peter, “Hades/Hell” is a different place where sinners/the devil will wait until judgement and possibly eternal punishment in the “lake of fire” (2 Peter 2:4). Punishment or reward surely follows judgement, rather than simply non-existence? Also, if “Sheol/Hades/Hell is oblivion/non-existence, how can itself be thrown into the “burning lake” (Rev 20:14-15)?
In terms of secondary sources, the 1st and 2nd century Apostolic Fathers wrote about the “unquenchable lake of fire”. For example, in the “Martyrdom of Polycarp”, Polycarp states to his executers that they are: “unaware of the flames of future judgement and everlasting torment which are in store for the ungodly”. Another Apostolic Father, Ignatius, writes in his epistle to the Ephesians regarding unbelievers: “Such a wretch in his uncleanness is bound for the unquenchable fire” and he also mentions the “netherworld”. There are other examples, but I’d say the early Christians took these concepts very literally, not figuratively.
According to this evidence – a small fraction of what I’ve found – I’d say there is very strong reason to show that the concepts of “Sheol/Hades/Hell” and “Gehenna/Lake of Fire and Brimstone” are supported in the Bible. I also have to conclude – for now at least – that the Bible cannot be used to support our belief that nothing happens when we die, therefore our belief is contrary to the Biblical viewpoint. I hope this fully explains my “nonsense” and that you can appreciate why many people come to these conclusions. There are no right or wrong answers, but I find this evidence very convincing indeed.
Research is a constant learning process, so if I’ve missed anything, please tell me, as I’m always willing to correct my views based on analysis and evidence. Thanks.
Hello Melco, I put a comment on here under yours!
But somehow it went off to be be moderated but dont know why,
nothing was offensive or no bad language.
But point is I knew a elders son also who was a ministerial servant
who rang his father while with me. His father said he wanted to leave the WT.org didnt believe in God. His Father encouraged him to stay. Another son of an elder while waiting to go on the ministry, wife came in. The daughter of another elder. She started saying her husband was getting angry at home because he thought he was getting less privileges than another MS. Who apparently was the first brother I mention who wanted to leave.
This is so much like Eli the priest and his favouritism towards his two sons. Who we know died for over stepping their duties as non
levites. My point is many decent brothers were shunned as not spiritual enough for theocratic privileges; While their sons were chosen as MS or elders. Yet all the time they were lacking such themselves. Hence spirituallity was not the key to become an MS or elder but being related to someone high up from rank & file.
I promise with all honesty who read this, those experiences are true.
Tamethyst;
you say you dont believe in Hell than what is the Lord God talking about in Revelations 20:13 when he says “The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one accordingto his works.” what about in Luke 16:23 ” And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” Those that dont accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and Repent of their sins and walk that path and reject Him will suffer the punishment of everlasting torment, their will be gnashing of teeth…Its in the NWT
Hey there, that’s some food for thought! I certainly don’t know the answers. I always thought Sheol/Hades/Hell was just the state of being dead, ie the first death, and Gehenna/lake of fire was the second death, that is after judgement. I’ve been taught as a JW that ‘death and Hades’ being thrown into this lake of fire meant that death itself would be no more, therefore the ‘common grave of mankind’ as the WTS puts it, would be done away with.
But now I’m starting to the see that what I’ve been taught as a JW through “God’s spirit-directed organisation”, the WTS, is not necessarily backed up by the scriptures. This is why I must do more research. Before I became a JW I was an atheist, and I used to pay out on people who told me I was going to Hell. I got put off “Christianity” by these dogmatic people who stated in unequivocal terms that every person who ever died, all those people living in little hill tribes who never even get the opportunity to learn about Jesus; groups of people, who through no fault of their own, were going to burn forever in Hell. That really put me off, and the JW message of a fair go for all those who died appealed to me.
Perhaps there is some sort of netherworld where the spirits of the departed are awaiting Jesus’ call to judgement, I don’t know. I must do more research on this. Thanks for giving me some sources to look up though.
Cheers
Julia
Well I am no bible scholar but in my reviewing those that understand the time and words of bible times it all seems so clear. Hades is thought of as a place where all dead reside. In myth it is the underground world or in those days a dirt pit or grave. Gehenna was a real location where the trash was thrown out and those dead bodies of criminals or undeserving ones were found to rot. It was on fire to cut down on the smell and reduce the buildup of disease. It was like our modern day dump sites for our garbage on the outskirts of town. So those that were to wander outside of the city in this area of Gehenna were in this misery like state or place in which they dwell. It appears that these places were used as an analogy of some sort to explain a story. The referral that before or after judgment those not worthy of a silent death will rest in Gehenna or misery. Sheol, Hades or HELL is this dark place in which the dead reside. These accounts refer to literal and symbolic locations which can be interpreted many ways. My conclusion is that we all go to HELL when we die (grave or dirt pit) and for those that were considered not worthy of a proper burial were tossed in a fire pit or in this story Gehenna (local dumping grounds for all garbage including bodies of the dead). I see nothing terrifying about all this as when we die we are today buried or cremated. In those times superstition was still around so being buried the proper way would send your spirit or soul to rest but if not it would be tormented in misery to roam the fiery pits of Gehenna. I do not see all this deep mystery solving puzzles that confuse its readers so in this case JW’s seem to have this absolutely right. Nope it sounds like if Hell gives up their dead could be grave diggers stealing belongings as this happened in Bible times. The keys of Hades also might be describing a cemetery which was locked and secured to protect graves like many of the cemeteries today. It is all so logical when one identifies the words and meaning according to the context of the times it was written. I am just sharing my views after reviewing the various angles and my conclusion is mine alone. Thanks everyone.
This may seem totally whack, but I actually have died. I have been clinically dead, and I was revived. I still have PTSD from it actually, all these years later. Death wasn’t actually that scary, but the trauma comes from the terror of knowing you’re going to die, the fear of not living, and the pain associated with the dying. I remember that all too clearly, and am even uncomfortable typing this right now.
I remember ‘the light’; it looked like a star, an arc welding electrode as seen through a heavy welding helmet, and it was about two feet away from me. Others who’ve had similar experiences recall a light. Something’s going on, but I don’t think it is to fear as Hamlet did ‘the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns’. The pain and missing out on life is the horrifying bit.