14 Bible Verses That Dismantle Shunning As Practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses
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Jehovah’s Witnesses are generally respected as a friendly, polite, law abiding people. It is hard for an outsider to envision a Jehovah’s Witness being rude, insulting or cruel.

But despite Witnesses having mostly admirable qualities as individuals, the leadership of the religion is coming under increasing scrutiny for some of its more disturbing practices – especially that of shunning former members.

When you challenge a Jehovah’s Witness on their religion’s treatment of disfellowshipped or disassociated former members, you will typically be met with a response that goes something like this: “We do this as an act of loving discipline out of loyalty to God’s command.”

Those on the receiving end will reply to this by pointing out that ostracism to the point of not speaking to someone is anything but “loving,” and this sort of behavior has driven shunned ones to depression and even suicide.

But what about shunning being “God’s command?”

It turns out when you consult the Scriptures, the biblical justification for Watchtower’s disfellowshipping policy is flimsy at best. In fact, there are 14 verses I will point to in this article that either question or flatly contradict this controversial rule.

Before listing these verses, perhaps it would be helpful to briefly go through the Bible verses commonly invoked in support of disfellowshipping, along with the basic reasons why I believe these are misapplied. 

Bible verses used to support JW shunning

1. Deuteronomy 21:20, 21; 22: 23, 24

and say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, and he refuses to obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of his city must stone him to death. So you must remove what is bad from your midst, and all Israel will hear and become afraid. … If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man happens to meet her in the city and lies down with her, you should bring them both out to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the girl because she did not scream in the city and the man because he humiliated the wife of his fellow man. So you must remove what is evil from your midst.

Are we really supposed to stone sinners to death? The law of Moses was supposedly nailed to Jesus’ torture stake (Col 2:14), which is why we’re no longer executing adulterers (or rape victims who don’t scream!).

If you are a Witness, before you say “But that’s an extreme example! The organization would never use those verses in defense of shunning!”, please consult the Organized book on page 140.

2. Matthew 10:34-37

Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

When read in context, this passage is clearly describing Jesus’ followers being shunned by their unbelieving family members, not vice versa.

3. 1 Corinthians 5:5-7, 11-13

you must hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough? Clear away the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, inasmuch as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. … But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

There is obviously a difference between not “keeping company” or socializing (i.e. dining) with someone and ignoring them as though they don’t exist – not even speaking to them. And “anyone called a brother” needn’t be applied even to family members. Even Watchtower makes allowances in this regard, allowing a disfellowshipped husband to remain with his wife and permitting children to continue living with their disfellowshipped parents. Also, 2 Thessalonians chapter 3 sheds more light on 1 Corinthians chapter 5, as I will explain later.

4. 1 Timothy 1:20

Hymenaeus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.

“Handed over to Satan” does not specify shunning as practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

5. 1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.

This verse merely describes those who stop believing, or “disassociate.” It does not advise that believers should shun such ones.

6. 2 John 7-11

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

This verse is talking about “antichrists” who deny Jesus. Clearly, not all who are disfellowshipped cease to be believing Christians. Even those who do cease to be religious needn’t be shunned according to this verse, because it is contradicted by another Bible verse that I will come to later.

Obviously there are other Bible verses appealed to by Watchtower when it comes to promoting the practice of shunning (verses describing the divine execution of certain Israelites, e.g. Aaron’s sons or Korah and his followers, spring to mind) but for the sake of argument I have tried to focus on the most compelling and/or prominently-used scriptures.

Bible verses that contradict JW shunning

Having breezed through the Bible verses most regularly appealed to by Watchtower in defense of its shunning policy we can now get stuck in to the verses that contradict it. And it turns out there are more than you might think.

For the purpose of brevity I will only partially quote some of the longer verses quoted, but I would recommend looking up and reading the cited passages in their entirety, particularly if you are skeptical about the way I am applying them.

1. Matthew 5:43-48

“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

You cannot love your enemy in any meaningful sense if you refuse to talk to him or her. This verse also gives context to Matthew chapter 18, which I will mention later, since there Jesus said that avowed sinners should be treated as being “of the nations” (in other words, no longer “brothers”) and here he is saying that his followers should take no pride in only greeting their brothers.

2. Matthew 9:10-13

Later as he was dining in the house, look! many tax collectors and sinners came and began dining with Jesus and his disciples. But on seeing this, the Pharisees said to his disciples: “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” Hearing them, he said: “Healthy people do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”

Jesus here advocated the principle that, just because someone is a sinner, this does not mean they should be shunned. In fact shunning makes it impossible to help someone correct their course. Mercy, according to Jesus, was the dominant consideration.

It’s also interesting to note that Jesus’ eating with sinners was a continuing source of irritation for the Jewish religious leaders, specifically in the synoptic gospels. If Jesus wanted to leave his followers with the impression that sinners were to be shunned and avoided, he did an appalling job. (Compare Matthew 11:19, Mark 2:16, Luke 5:30; 7:34; 15:1, 2)

Jesus was rebuked by the Jewish religious leaders for socializing with sinners (Image source: JW.org)

 

3. Matthew 18:15-17

“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

No allowance here for kangaroo court-style judicial committees made up of Jehovah’s Witness elders. Rather, believers were to sort out grievances between themselves. Also, since Jesus ate with tax collectors (as we have already established), clearly JW-style total avoidance wasn’t on the menu even in the worst case scenario.

4. Luke 6:27

“But I say to you who are listening: Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you

Again, it’s impossible to love someone or do good to them if you are refusing to acknowledge their existence. And we are talking here about “enemies” who “hate” believers. Most disfellowshipped Jehovah’s Witnesses I know of have nothing but love for their believing family but are shunned all the same.

5. Luke 6:35-37

“On the contrary, continue to love your enemies and to do good and to lend without hoping for anything back; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue being merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Moreover, stop judging, and you will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and you will by no means be condemned. Keep on forgiving, and you will be forgiven

Again, you cannot show kindness toward “the unthankful and wicked” by shunning them. Jesus warned his followers to be forgiving rather than judgmental, reminding them that mercy should be the preeminent factor. Can separating someone from their loved ones be considered merciful?

6. Luke 10:25-37

But wanting to prove himself righteous, the man said to Jesus: “Who really is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell victim to robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went off, leaving him half-dead. Now by coincidence a priest was going down on that road, but when he saw him, he passed by on the opposite side. Likewise, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the opposite side. But a certain Samaritan traveling the road came upon him, and at seeing him, he was moved with pity. So he approached him and bandaged his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them. Then he mounted him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said: ‘Take care of him, and whatever you spend besides this, I will repay you when I return.’ Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbor to the man who fell victim to the robbers?” He said: “The one who acted mercifully toward him.” Jesus then said to him: “Go and do the same yourself.”

In Jesus’ famous parable, which I consider to be the most beautiful passage in the Bible, the true neighbor turned out to be the heretic (the Samaritan) who had what Jews considered to be apostate religious beliefs, and it was precisely such a neighbor to whom his followers were reminded to show love.

7. Luke chapter 15

Now all the tax collectors and the sinners kept gathering around him to hear him. And both the Pharisees and the scribes kept muttering: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Then he told them this illustration, saying: “What man among you with 100 sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the 99 behind in the wilderness and go after the lost one until he finds it? And when he has found it, he puts it on his shoulders and rejoices. … In the same way, I tell you, joy arises among the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Then he said: “A man had two sons. And the younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the property that should come to me.’ So he divided his belongings between them. A few days later, the younger son gathered all his things together and traveled to a distant country and there squandered his property by living a debauched life. When he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred throughout that country, and he fell into need. He even went and attached himself to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to herd swine. And he longed to be filled with the carob pods that the swine were eating, but no one would give him anything. “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, while I am dying here from hunger! I will get up and travel to my father and say to him: “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Make me as one of your hired men.”’ So he got up and went to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was moved with pity, and he ran and embraced him and tenderly kissed him. Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’ But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. Also bring the fattened calf, slaughter* it, and let us eat and celebrate, for this son of mine was dead but has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves. … ‘But we just had to celebrate and rejoice, for your brother was dead but has come to life; he was lost and has been found.’”

This chapter of the Bible, when read in context and fully contemplated, is dynamite to Watchtower’s shunning policy, which is probably why it rarely features in material on how disfellowshipped ones are to be treated.

Notice that the entire reason for Jesus launching into the parable of the prodigal son was that he had again been chastised for being too friendly with sinners. He responded by reminding his accusers that it was impossible to help someone or be a good example by refusing to interact with them.

In the parable itself, Jesus describes an errant son who only returns after exhausting his funds, making it impossible to continue his debauched lifestyle. Such a person would be disfellowshipped by Jehovah’s Witness elders for only exhibiting “worldly sadness.”

Worldly sadness, according to Watchtower, “mourns the unpleasant consequences wrongdoing brings. But it does not mourn over the unrighteousness itself, or the reproach it brings on God.​” (w72 7/15 p. 438) Furthermore, it is telling that the father runs to embrace his son “while he was still a long way off” – in other words, before any repentance could be determined.

The father ran to welcome his prodigal son while he was “still a long way off” (Image source: JW.org)

 

8. 2 Corinthians 2:1-7

For I have made up my mind not to come to you again in sadness. For if I make you sad, who will be there to cheer me up except the one I saddened? I wrote what I did, so that when I come I may not be saddened by those over whom I ought to rejoice, because I have confidence that what brings me joy brings all of you the same joy. For out of much tribulation and anguish of heart I wrote you with many tears, not to sadden you, but to let you know the depth of love I have for you. Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man; now you should instead kindly forgive and comfort him, so that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sadness.

Interestingly, in his follow-up letter to 1 Corinthians (in which the most direct counsel on the treatment of wrongdoers is given) Paul sounds a vague note of regret at what he had written, or at least how it had been interpreted. (“For if I make you sad, who will be there to cheer me up except the one I saddened?”) He reminds the congregation of the need for forgiveness lest the wrongdoer “be overwhelmed by excessive sadness,” and even suggests that a “rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man.” This indicates it is not necessary for each and every individual in a congregation to “rebuke” a wrongdoer. It was possible, in Paul’s mind, to apply his words too harshly.

9. Colossians 3:13, 14

Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.

Self explanatory! Are you really putting up with someone or freely forgiving them by treating them as though they don’t exist?

10. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 9-12

For this is the will of God, that you should be holy and abstain from sexual immorality. Each one of you should know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not with greedy, uncontrolled sexual passion like the nations have that do not know God. No one should go beyond proper limits and take advantage of his brother in this matter, because Jehovah exacts punishment for all these things, just as we told you previously and also strongly warned you. For God has called us, not for uncleanness, but for holiness. So, then, the man who disregards this is disregarding, not man, but God, who gives you his holy spirit. … However, concerning brotherly love, you do not need us to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. In fact, you are doing so toward all the brothers in all of Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to go on doing so in fuller measure. Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you, so that you may walk decently in the eyes of people outside and not need anything.

Paul repeatedly expressed his belief that the punishment of wrongdoers was in the hereafter rather than the here and now

Paul believed that God would punish wrongdoers, and it was God, not man, to whom they were accountable. This is a recurring theme in Paul’s writings, namely judgment in the hereafter rather than the here and now.

Believing Christians were not to take punishment into their own hands. They were to “love one another” and “mind their own business.” 

Can Jehovah’s Witness elders who investigate and interrogate congregation members over accused wrongdoing (to the extent of delving into sexual matters in gratuitous detail) be considered to be minding their own business? Can it be considered evidence of “brotherly love” to behave in such a manner?

11. 1 Thessalonians 5:14, 15

On the other hand, we urge you, brothers, to warn the disorderly, speak consolingly to those who are depressed, support the weak, be patient toward all. See that no one repays injury for injury to anyone, but always pursue what is good toward one another and to all others.

Again, self explanatory. You cannot “support the weak” by ostracizing them and weaponizing family relationships against them. Patience is required, as is the avoidance of vindictive, judgmental behavior, i.e. repaying “injury for injury” through excessive discipline.

12. 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15

Now we are giving you instructions, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother who is walking disorderly and not according to the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you should imitate us, because we did not behave in a disorderly way among you, nor did we eat anyone’s food free. … For we hear that some are walking disorderly among you, not working at all, but meddling with what does not concern them. To such people we give the order and exhortation in the Lord Jesus Christ that they should work quietly and eat food they themselves earn. For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

If you read 2 Thessalonians chapter 3 and compare it with 1 Corinthians chapter 5 you find both passages are discussing the same problem of how to deal with wrongdoers.

Rather than being separate instructions – one for “disfellowshipping” (1 Corinthians) one for “marking” (2 Thessalonians) – Paul makes clear that the recommendation to merely “stop associating” (socializing) with “disorderly” ones applies to all the behavior outlined in “this letter” of 2 Thessalonians (see verse 14) which in the previous chapter includes a rebuke of the “man of lawlessness” who “did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Remember 2 John 10 (cited earlier) where readers were told to ostracize the “antichrists” among them by not receiving them into their homes or saying a greeting to them? Well, here we have different instructions. Paul’s suggested punishment for such ones was far less extreme. As far as he was concerned, the “man of lawlessness” who “stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship” could be dealt with more leniently, because it was for Jesus to “do away” with such ones “by the manifestation of his presence” if they failed to correct their course. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

Again, Paul apparently believed that morbid fear of the impending destruction of wrongdoers was sufficient motivation to bring them to their senses, hence his repeated counsel for Christians to not take matters into their own hands.

Even when describing believers distancing themselves from “disorderly” ones among them, this was only to be done to a limited degree, i.e. by refraining from “keeping company,” eating with, or “associating” with such a person – and, even then, they were to “continue admonishing him as a brother.”

13. 1 Timothy 5:8

Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith

If you are not providing materially or emotionally for a family member, perhaps because you have been persuaded to shun him or her by religious zealots, you are worse than a person without faith.

14. Hebrews 10:26-31

For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Interestingly, this verse was cited in a 1947 Awake! article titled “Are You Also Excommunicated?” (g47 1/8 pp. 27, 28) – an article that predated Watchtower’s practice of disfellowshipping, which wasn’t introduced until 1952. (Scans are available here and here.)

The article argued strongly that excommunication, which Watchtower has equated to disfellowshipping (see “Expelling” in Insight Vol. 1), is an instrument of “ecclesiastical power and secular tyranny,” “not without pagan influence,” that is “altogether foreign to biblical teachings.”

The verse from Hebrews chosen by Watchtower to argue this point again highlights Paul’s belief that punishment was exclusively God’s remit, not that of men.

Cruel, unbiblical, and detrimental to Watchtower’s aims

So next time a Jehovah’s Witness tells you that, by shunning their disfellowshipped family member, they are following God’s command, politely remind them that the New Testament is strewn with cautions to show love and mercy, and to refrain from being judgmental or taking punishment into one’s own hands.

Even Paul, Watchtower’s poster boy when arguing in favor of shunning, believed that sinners were answerable to God alone, and seemed to express regret to the Corinthians that the advice he gave them in his first letter could have resulted in “excessive sadness” when ruthlessly implemented.

But the biggest irony of Watchtower’s shunning policy is that, in addition to being cruel and unbiblical, it is actually detrimental to the organization’s aims. If the Governing Body were to reverse their policy of shunning, their organization would instantly shed a large portion of its cult reputation making it easier to attract new converts.

Yes, there would inevitably be an exodus if Witnesses were allowed to vote with their feet or were otherwise no longer bound to a captive organization. But whoever remains (I believe we would still be talking in the order of millions) could be truly considered devout believers whose loyalty to the organization would be beyond question.

Sadly, the penny is unlikely to drop any time soon. The Governing Body have wedded themselves to the shunning policy they inherited from their 1980s forebears in a string of Watchtower articles and propaganda videos reinforcing the rule to shun disfellowshipped family members (there were two video dramatizations in 2016 alone).

The stubbornness of these men knows no bounds. Their delusion is not only ruining lives for former members, it is also self-destructive both for the organization and its members who are forced to bypass their humanity in order to comply with “God’s commands.”

It is for this reason that JWsurvey remains committed to highlighting the abusive policies inflicted on Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not deserve to be exploited, threatened or lied to. Even though the “faithful slave” seem unmoved by the suffering they are causing, we who feel the brunt of their cruelty are appealing to the outside world loudly and persistently, and the media and various law-makers and influencers are starting to take an interest. Slowly but surely, our voices are being heard.

 

 

Author of The Reluctant Apostate and How To Escape from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

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Further reading:

* All scripture quotations are from the New World Translation, 2013 revision (obviously!)

** It should be noted that, despite quoting from the Bible and arguing along theological lines, the author of this article is an atheist. I am no longer persuaded that the Bible is a sound moral authority for reasons I have explained on my YouTube channel. However, even though there was nothing stopping the Bible writers from advocating shunning as currently practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses, it turns out this is not the case when examining their writings (or it can be said their advice on the treatment of wrongdoers is inconsistent at best).

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336 Responses to 14 Bible Verses That Dismantle Shunning As Practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses

  1. outandabout says:

    Dear Tim Ratley, to be honest, what I see from your description of you son is a failure by Watchtower and yourself to give your son proper life skills. He went outside the WT bubble, couldn’t cope with reality and so blamed ‘the world’ for that failure. Maybe if he’d had a proper and healthy upbringing he could have been part of this – in 1995 there were about 1.2 billion people in the world living in extreme poverty. By 2015 that figure was reduced to .8 billion which represents an average figure of 137,000 people every single day for 20yrs being given a better life. Has the WT ever reported this triumph over Satan? Why not? It’s because they want you to hold unhealthy negative views about humanity. Good news is bad for WT. What you and your son really need to do is grow a pair. Sorry.

  2. resister says:

    watchtower sucks.

  3. resister says:

    Tim Ratley, that was a sweet story (if true). I guess not everyone can cut it on the outside.

  4. resister says:

    Tttesting

  5. Joe says:

    Joe testing

  6. resister says:

    Alright! Back in the saddle. Time to exercise my fingers some more.
    Isn’t watchtower a lot like Jello? She is a spineless, formless shapeshifter, a slimey body that squirms into a different form whenever you think you have a hold on her.
    Jehovah’s Witness dudes, you don’t worship Jehovah. You worship Jellovah.

  7. resister says:

    Tommy Baby, ‘the “bullying” meme is overdone’? Didn’t you listen to Melania Trump’s speech (reading) last month or so? Of course, I understand why a watchtower apologist / jw like yourself would not want to discuss the subject of bullying.
    But hey, like I said B4, Please continue on your path! For heaven’s sake, don’t ever let ME stand in your way. I never stand in the way of anyone’s happiness. If you ever find I am in your way, just (politely) request I step aside, and your path shall be clear once again.

  8. resister says:

    Man, I do meet the Crazies. As Ricardo lamented, God must really hate me.
    So, before my Escape, I knew this guy who claimed to “anointed”. Interesting that he was 40-ish, single, and not “pioneering” or working in “bethel”. To make a long story even longer, this dude was eventually reprimanded, then excommunicated, for alcoholism. Around the same time, he had started his own business, which required a lot of local traveling, and had his drivers license suspended due to a Driving While Intoxicated situation where he almost ran down a kid on a bike. By this time, I was already Out. So I offered to drive him around in his vehicle, and help out at work, sort of help him get his new business off the ground, until he got his license back. But he still seemed to think of himself as some kinda “big shot”. He was also an amateur musician (pretty good, actually), so he grew a beard and started smoking (like I already was lol), I guess to portray his new persona of a “badass” musician type. Which is fine, I guess. He also stopped going to A.A. meetings, and continued drinking (he could hold his booze lol). We also socialized after work. I tried to get him interested in several fun and challenging activities to get his mind off the sauce, none of which took. But what really irritated me was his constant reminder that “When I’m paying someone, their time belongs to me. Their time is mine. I OWN their time.” What it really sounded like was “As long as I’m paying you, your ass is mine.” So, after he got his license back a couple months later (after paying enormous legal fees lol), I took him out to a nice steak dinner, then never had anything to do with him again.
    So much for “owning my time”.

    • resister says:

      Maybe that should read: So much for “owning” my time.

    • Holy Connoli says:

      @resister: I know what you mean about meting the crazies in the WT. I have met so many of them also. When I was an Elder I always wanted to be helpful and approachable and I guess this attracted the “crazies” to me, I am not sure but it seemed every week I was always getting these extreme cases if weirdness from the Publishers. Many needed help but nowhere to turn. I had cases where sisters were calling me convinced people were after them to harm them. One sister even had me come to her house and show me she had taped off the air vents into the house bc she was convinced people were poisoning her with “BAD AIR” Another one was a brother who had gone thru a divorce and claimed to have n medical record that proved his former wife had sex with another man? I said where are the records and how can that be proved? He said they were in storage and he would get them but of course never did. Another one was convinced the MAFIA was after them bc they had a electronic repair shop and the MAFAI controlled the electronic business and di not want competition so every 6 months -1 year they would move to avoid being caught by the mafia. I mean they would move from NYC to California and then to Kansas and then back to Hawaii, it was just NUTS and both Husband and wife claimed to be of the anointed. Another sister I felt sorry for her, would just kind of wander around all day walking in shopping centers and on the streets with the WT and Awake mags all by her self “pioneering” but always lonely and by herself. She also claimed to be of the anointed, she also made some strange claims.

      I came to the conclusion that the ones who claim to n be of the anointed are fulfilling in themselves the need to feel special or to answer in their own minds why they feel so “DIFFERENT” all their lives. So I think the majority of those that claim to be of the anointed are mentally imp[aired. I am sure many of you also have had similar experiences.

      Also it goes against the WT teaching that the heavenly a calling stopped in 1933 right?
      The WT sure loves to date things dont they? If that was true there would have been no more Anointed ones for the last 80 years or so. I believe thee is more mental illness in the WT and other cult like religions bc they put so much demand on followers and enforce a unnatural way of life on their people. Hasidic Jews, Scientologists, JW’s, WW church of God, and others all do the same. Not sure about Mormons but I think it is the same but maybe to a lessor degree of mental illness bc they encourage education, college, sports, community service etc but I am no expert in them but some guys I know say they are cultish. JW’s are the top of the hill for mental illness. Sad to say but it is true.

  9. resister says:

    “Brother Toiletface, I am concerned about Brother Started-Thinking-For-Himself. Perhaps we should arrange to meet with him to ‘adjust his thinking’, or even, arrest his thinking.”
    “Yes, Brother Sh*thead, I have noticed the same thing. Thinking brings reproach upon Jehovah’s name. We just cannot tolerate that kind of behavior.”
    “What … thinking?”
    “Exactly, Brother Sh*thead … thinking.”
    “I’ve heard some folks occasion apostate websites, like JWsurvey. Damn the internet!”
    “Yes, I have been on that site myself.”
    “You have? I didn’t want to say anything, but so have I. So … when should I call Brother Started-Thinking-For-Himself to arrange a meeting so we can start bullying him and his family into totally mindless submission to the Watchtower Society?”
    “Not just yet. I have some computer stuff to do – I mean, I have to do some work on my car.”
    “Yes, me too. I have to do some work on my car as well.”

    • outandabout says:

      Here’s an 1874 exchange between Charles Taze Russell and his Bible Students after Russell, using scripture, had previously proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus would return in the flesh but didn’t show up…….

      Followers – “Hey Charles!, Jesus hasn’t turned up! Where is he?

      Russell – “um, yes, ahem!……I’ve, um, re-interpreted the scriptures and he is in fact here but he’s ahh, um….. invisible.

      Followers – “What! Invisible!? How dumb do you think we are!?”

      Russell – “Dumb enough for me!”

      Followers – “oh, ok….. well tell us what to think now, then.”

      I believe that in order to be a Witness today you have to believe Jesus returned invisibly in 1874. Apparently the start of a 1000 yr rule. That means he’s already used up 144 yrs of his 1000 yr rule and has only 856 left. Losing faith here.

  10. resister says:

    JW Land is a land of “Don’t”. Don’t do this. Don’t do that. This philosophy is actually quite reflective of the society we live in. Don’t pursue women. Let them come to you. It’s not “cool” to chase women. In fact, that’s what the “anointed” Joe Cool Musician I mentioned above, believed. I still don’t think he has a girlfriend. Never really did. You no longer hear about someone getting drunk at a party and dancing around with a lampshade on their head. I guess that’s no longer “cool” either. Heaven forbid you should ever embarrass yourself. Not “cool”. Don’t go to a bar to have fun. Just keep your head down and drink your damn beer. Then order another. And another. And another. Don’t be the office clown. Don’t go around telling jokes. Again, not “cool”. Don’t stick your neck out. Don’t take risks. Don’t express your views in public. That’s what the internet is for. And for heaven’s sake, don’t walk. Drive everywhere, even to the corner store. Walking is just not “cool” anymore. Walking is for peons. And DON’T BE SMART. If you’re smart, you’re a NERD.
    Somehow, some way, the idiots and slackers of the world have finally found a way to make LAZINESS and TIMIDITY seem cool.
    Well, World, sorry, but I am a Man. A descendant of Cro-Magnon. I pursue. I hunt. I am the Aggressor.

    • resister says:

      … Don’t like it? You’re welcome to leave. You know the way.

    • resister says:

      Oh, I forgot a couple: Don’t play sports. Not “cool” to run around, sweat, maybe fall down or drop the ball and embarrass yourself. That’s only for the highly-paid “professionals”. And for God’s sakes, whatever you do, DON’T LEARN TO PROTECT YOURSELF. I mean, are you crazy or something? What is wrong with you? Just go to your local tavern, get smashed, and watch UFC on the big screen with all the other drunken idiots. Then leave the bar with all your buddies acting like you’re all King F——- ing Kong.
      Then put on your “cool” black leather jackets by Armani or Giovanni or Dolce & Scatana, like my Elder brother and Elder brother-in-law and their wives, making them look like SS / Gestapo agents, and drive off in your “cool” BMW.
      And don’t come back.

  11. outandabout says:

    Watchtower like to make predictions such as predicting by 1975 the world is going to be too unsafe to live in and yet we see Witnesses today walking the streets without a care in the world and knocking on the doors of worldly people they’re taught are out to get them. They live a double life.

    My prediction is that by 2025 it will be too embarrassing to be a Jehovah’s Witness.

  12. resister says:

    Watchtower and her apologists / sponsors should stop struggling so much. They’ll go down easier. They don’t understand that they do what they do and say what they say because they have lost control of their destiny. Something has gone terribly wrong with their wiring. All the years of dishonesty, decadence, and deceit have fried their OWN circuits as well. They are the Gazelle, and Reality is the Lion, with its jaws now firmly clamped around their throats.

  13. messenger says:

    Can Paul’s or John’s words supercede Christ? Did Christ say I’m sending someone after me, follow him? Since Christ spoke to Satan, even quoting scripture to him, and he acknowledged demons then those words of Paul and John must have meant something different than the way JWS interpret those.

  14. messenger says:

    I just won another court case. So far I’ve only lost one case and that was when the lawyer did not do what I told him to or what the opposing side requested. But that didn’t cost me because I had a contingent fee lawyer and I was the plaintiff. I’ve never lost a case representing myself, and I won two rather sizeable cases after laying out laying out those cases to lawyers. If I didn’t teach I was going to practice law in these latter years of my life. But I’m happy teaching. I work 5 to 6 hours a day for 182 days a year and since I’m under contract I get paid for full time even during breaks when I don’t work.

    There is a fellow that posted on topix Jehovah’s Witnesses who used to work at New York Bethel. He wrote that at one of their morning gatherings there was a lawyer that is a Bethel lawyer who
    spoke to the Bethel family bragging about how WT just won a case to get a building permit. The writer claimed that the lawyer stated when WT sues or is sued the opposing party is paying hefty legal fees and thinks WT is also. But he went on to say WT uses in house Bethelite JWS to represent
    WT and pays each each lawyer only $90 a month. So with that case he spoke of WT sent in 5 of its JW attorneys to create fear from the opposing side who sat there paying their one attorney $700 an hour. During his speech to the Bethel family he said the message they want to portray is that if you don’t give us what we want, or you don’t settle this case against us if WT is the defendent then we will tie you up in court for years filling motions while you pay your attorney for the work he has to do. He did say on occasion WT will hire an outside lawfirm that specializes in a particular part of law. Through that poster’s comment and now me you’ve heard second hand WT’s legal strategy. And from the way we’ve observed its cases that poster on topix. was probably telling the truth.

    Best wishes folks.. Best wishes Ricardo!!!

  15. outandabout says:

    Well I see Ken Ham from Answers in Genesis is acknowledging the dying out of Religion and he’s blaming churches for ‘not doing enough’….. or is he pre empting the failure of his Ark and putting a ready made scapegoat in place rather than shoulder the blame for his $100 million own goal which he touted as being a rival for the ‘Universals’ and the ‘Disney’s’.

    Watchtower on the other hand draws a very long bow by claiming the dying out of religion is a sign of the end and cite scripture to back that up. Quoting Timothy 3:1-5 and Proverbs 30:8,9, they put material prosperity as a sign of the last days. So what WT is saying is that one must never look to improve ones lot in life. One must live an uneducated miserable 1st century existence and be so desperate for something better that they’ll turn to god out of desperation like a drowning man and a straw. Life has to be somewhere in the region of deprivation and austerity otherwise one is not worthy. It’s a pity they don’t practice what they preach.

    Another reason given for the dying out of religion by WT is young people looking at the way religion has behaved over the centuries and no longer see the church as a moral arbiter. Fair enough .But here the bow being drawn gets even longer still when they quote more obscure scripture which is supposed to explain the fact that kids today have information in the palm of their hands and can easily sort fact from fiction and won’t tolerate lies.This is a real threat to religion because these kids will one day be ruling the world. Even Islamic kids from Pakistan are on YouTube with their rebel music and printing things like “if you want me to get a bullet in my head, ‘Like’ my video”.

    The fact of the matter is that religion is going to have to adapt or die. Religion with probably be with Man for as long as he’s afraid of death. That’s the bottom line and it’s at the sharp end of why people believe. Take the fear of death and the promise of everlasting life away and the whole thing will collapse. There will be no point. It’s a fear based belief system cunningly disguised as love, but even then it’s a conditional love. ‘I love you but if you don’t love me back, I will kill you’ is no way to start a loving relationship and being forced to love someone you fear is the essence of sado- masochism.

  16. outandabout says:

    Messenger…I’m really impressed with your courtroom prowess and I have a job for you. I need you to examine the facts and prove Jesus is legally dead and never returning so we can get some closure to stop all this unhealthy mourning over some dead Palestinian who couldn’t keep his mouth shut. It’s easy to see that in Matthew 16:27,28 Jesus said “some of you still standing here will not taste death until they see the son of Man coming in his kingdom” That was 2000 yrs ago. Also, in Matthew, Mark and Luke we have the famous ‘this generation will not pass away’ carry on. There’s plenty more too. All this evidence is as good as a suicide note, unless of course you happen to represent the insurance company. Do you represent the insurance company, messenger?

    • messenger says:

      It’s exactly like Christ told the Samaritan woman, you worship what you Don’t know, we worship what we know. Some of them did see Christ come in his kingdom, and some like PAUL not present when that statement was made saw the same. (An indication you don’t understand scriptural writings). Because you have not does not seen it does not make what you don’t know false. You’re old enough now that you will see it soon enough. But indirectly you see it now in the lives of other people. CHRIST has been ruling over Christians for almost 2000 years. You see that much. Some are shown more.

      • outandabout says:

        okay, so you work for the insurance company, messenger. ‘Some of you still standing here will see me come back’. So there must be some 2000 yr old people gadding about the middle east somewhere. That’s the only way you can get around it unless Jesus was just a deluded individual. Hmmm.

        • messenger says:

          Like I said you worship what you do not know. And I believe
          only Bible teaching from atheists is allowed on this Site. As one you have your Bible understanding as screwed up as Catherine who claimed to have “very much, and I mean a lot of personal experience talking to God”. But then denied it later. Or dee2 that repeatedly asked the same question, “If God wants everyone to be saved then why doesn’t he tell everyone the same thing? ”

          Hey Buddy, they don’t want me to teach you here. If you want to know Christ’s teaching check out some churches that are not named Kingdom Hall. You might try Christian Satellite Network or CSN International. They are not as judgmental as WT and from that perspective much more Christian.

          • outandabout says:

            well thanks for the advice anyway, messenger. It’s just that, for me, I find it rather amusing that the bible ‘means exactly what it says’ until it says something that Christians don’t want it to say. It looks to me that 1st century Christians just couldn’t accept they were wrong, so right there they began scouring texts for hidden meanings. It’s exactly the same as CT Russell with his ‘Jesus is coming in the flesh”, until he doesn’t and then it’s “yes he is here but he’s invisible”, scenario. Both scenario’s proven by scripture. “Some of you standing here will see me come back” doesn’t mean what it says, apparently, but, if He had of said “I will return one day”, that would be seen by Christians as ok because it gives no time of return and the need for pages of excuses about what it ‘really’ says need not be written. Funny that. What is language for then? To confuse people? If I came upon a sign reading ‘Danger, do not proceed’, do I just say that can’t be right and proceed regardless?
            It works for you, messenger, and thats ok, but less and less people are being convinced.

          • messenger says:

            Don’t you know the Bible’s story is they saw Christ come back.

        • Tranquillo says:

          Another favorite of mine is Acts 2:17 where Peter said that the prophecy of Joel concerning the last days was being fullfilled back then.
          Now, the expression “last days” has just one meaning through the bible.
          Unless of course it is wrongly applied, then another meaning must be fabricated.
          .should this comment appear more than once, sorry, I can’t publish it and keep on trying

        • Tranquillo says:

          Another favorite of mine is Acts 2:17 where Peter said that the prophecy by Joel concerning the last days was being fullfilled back then. “The sons and daughters of Israel will prophetize and dream dreams and have visions an so on”
          “the last days” has just one meaning in the bible, unless of course it is wrongly applied here, so a “different” meaning has to be cooked up to cover the mistake

          • outandabout says:

            and then there’s Matthew 5:34-37 which say’s ‘when you say yes or no, let it be plain “Yes” or “No”, and yet when Jesus say’s plainly “some of you standing here will not taste death until you see the son of Man coming in his kingdom”, suddenly, after hanging onto every word Jesus ever spoke, that’s not plain enough for Christians. They don’t want the dream to end and to face the fact they will eventually die. That’s fine by me but all this cultish undue influence has to stop. Down with cults!

  17. Ted says:

    Try submitting “Visions” as evidence in a present day court
    of law, I’m sure it would cause some amusement and maybe
    a little sympathy. Besides, the statute of limitations on this
    case expired long, long ago.

    • outandabout says:

      I wrote a comment to you Ted, but it didn’t catch onto the site.I’ll wait and see if it turns up.

    • messenger says:

      Hey Ted no Christian is here to convince you of anything. Accept what you want. It’s your gamble. Christians have got no skin in the game if you’re butt is living or dying. But out of a very fleeting curiosity why did you become a Witness, and why did you accept the office of elder? Was it just to live in the New World? If so, that’s what separates me from you, which is very possibly reason why I know things you don’t. Like I told outy we worship what we know, you worship what you don’t know but guess about. You gamble there is no God. It’s not my life on the line if in you’re ignorance you are wrong, which is not a maybe but a reality.

      What’s worse is you are stupid enough to joke about it, even being the old man you are. From a young man who doesn’t realize just how quickly he will get old those jokes would be more than stupid, but jokes about God coming from an old man so close to death, even dumber. And the dumbest are coming from an old man about to die who used to know God. That’s assuming you did belive once and just didn’t go along for some other reason.

      • Holy Connoli says:

        Messenger. I was just reading your comments to Ted. Personally I think they are cruel and uncalled for. I know you like to quote scripture on here and express your faith but my goodness let the man alone. Have some respect since he is ill and has cancer of the bone etc. You remind me of my JW days and everybody trying to put down criticize another person for not being Christian enough or not getting in enough field service etc.
        Your comments have a mean spirit to them from what I read here.

        I am sure TED has thought things thru many times and he has accepted
        the current situation. You disresptectveley call him an “OLD MAN” and you also will be OLD someday unless you die prematurely or in an accident or killed. For claiming to follow the bible and have faith you express a bad spirit and one of judgement.

        • messenger says:

          Your name on this Site doesn’t fit your stand. Do you feel that bad about any of the dribble coming out mouths here about God, Christians, the Bible ? I don’t think so based on your words. You don’t feel that bad about those things do you?

          Therefore WE are not of like mind, and yet you feel your words will be relevant to me. To me those words I offered Ted offer much more than anything I’ve seen you offer. But where your understanding is I don’t expect you to know why I believe that. People that only believe in what they see only think about what they see. Ted is still alive, and he has a chance to believe more and without the restraints of WT.

          Ted check out that movie I listed.

          • Tranquillo says:

            For some reason I coldn’t post my reply for many days. Holy Connoli has replied well to you, messenger. You have acted in your typical bullying way, telling in a first moment that you are not here to persuade nobody, then plainly saying that all thinking not allined with yours is stupid. To complete it all, you have lacked the decency to offer some empaty to Ted. You are indeed a fine representant of your god. I’m not interested in it and you are as damaging to the faith of others as Wts.
            .
            Ted, I’m sorry to hear of your health issues. I wish you all the best.

  18. Ted says:

    Hi Messenger, Very kind of you to remind me that I’m an old man
    and at deaths door. At one point in my life when I was naive and
    some brain cells either dormant or underdeveloped such thoughts
    might have been disturbing, ( which explains what the hell l was
    doing in the jw religion ). –>

    Since then I have accepted the reality of of my mortality and
    the idea of oblivion, it’s no big deal, we’ve all been there, for
    millennia before we were conceived, it holds no terrors and can
    no longer be used to terrify, coerce, or control me.

    I’ve had a great long life and still going strong, no regrets not
    even the jw aberration , sadly such is not the case for everyone,
    if your JHVH is in control he seems very capricious. Anyway
    Messenger I wish you a long and happy life, who knows whether
    any of us will be here tomorrow! No hard feelings here.

    • messenger says:

      Well there you have it. While concern for self is a natural motivation and looking to a good future a scripturally proper motivation, having that alone as a primary reason to serve God does separate me from you, and it was that reason that I suspected did. You see my primary reason was never that. Instead MY first reason is the same reason you don’t molest children, putting aside your natural distaste for the idea. I perceived you believe it to be wrong. I believe in that same way it is right to follow God.

      Now you know scripture. With your knowledge who do You believe God if he exists would give more than an ordinary amount of information about himself through personal contacts to, persons with just the motivation you had, or persons having both that and the other I explained? It’s clear which group most prophets fit in. That’s why
      I say you worship what you don’t know. And you don’t believe what others have been tel ling you that we’re shown more.

      What I have discovered is that WT is one of the biggest apostate sects, and it’s my belief that despite your claims IT did a lot to damage your faith and Cedar’s faith and most indi viduals here that were in you situation and now have come to a new conclusion. Remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus. “Remember me when you get to your kingdom. ” That’s all it TOOK for him to be saved. No repentance, no studying, no following WT.

      My wife died at 56. You’re still alive to make decisions. WHY don’t you check out the first God’s not Dead movie . I’m sure you can find its DVD online.

      Best wishes!

      • Imgonaburn says:

        Messenger.
        Why would God choose someone to be his ‘special friend’ and whisper things in his ear alone?… Especially when it results in that person becoming so puffed up with arrogant pride that he does nothing but boast about it and insult others??
        Do you stand on street corners messenger and shout out that you’re a prophet?
        You are so dismissive of others and so rude that your behaviour is enough to make me question the validity of your claims.
        There are many here who have been put off religion by their experiences as Jehovah’s Witnesses – some have even lost their faith altogether! Yet you continue to berate and beat down on others with your use of many words. You were told that a member of this forum has cancer and rather than sympathise you twist it into another way to highlight YOUR motivation to be purer than everyone else’s. There’s something wrong with the way you reason on things. It’s all about you isn’t it? I mean… EVERYTHING …is all about you!
        What are you trying to convince us of? That there IS a God? That the Bible IS the truth? That YOU are one of the only people alive that know it and everyone else is stupid? You sound just like one of the GB! Just another wannabe cult leader.
        Do you have any followers (disciples) of your own yet? Are you ‘dreaming’ of starting your own religion?
        Why are you so determined to win all arguments and debates?
        Why do you feel it is so important to be right and everyone else wrong?
        It’s becoming quite tiresome now. I’ve felt this way about your responses to others for quite a long time.
        So from now on I will skip your comments and not read them at all. I feel better already!

        • messenger says:

          Your comment merits no response. You lost my attention at the first line.

          • Imgonaburn says:

            Oh so the truth hurts so you shut your eyes? Oh well your loss ‘buddy’ -better put your fingers in your ears too then messenger so you can’t hear us all laughing at you!

          • messenger says:

            It’s not that your comment hurts me to read it Burn. It’s not worth the minuscule amount of effort expended to do so. And how do you know you’re stupid if you are? By what gauge , your own? And it’s by that gauge you think you are correct. But if all you offer is pity, really what good are you? None that’s practical for a lasting good. Instead in ignorance you fool yourself. That is unless you store up and treasure sympathetic reaction to your complaints. Move on.

            My suggestion that I don’t expect you take is wake up and stop your pity party. Time moves forward and so are people and events around you. Crying won’t help too much more than it did when we were kids. Actually less than that.

            Laughter of a fool? Yeh, I couldn’t sleep last night afraid some would laugh at me.

        • Robin Kish-miller says:

          Some People don’t realize that “Judging others” is a subtle addiction. Just like drugs and alcohol. Look at Actualized.org on youtube. Its interesting.

  19. Ted says:

    Messenger, just a brief appendage to my previous
    comment. At the moment it’s devoted medical
    professionals that are keeping me going. Treating
    Prostate and bone cancer by means of chemical
    castration, but eventually the thing will work its way
    around the treatment. Great invention bone cancer,
    sincerely hope your never afflicted with it, or that
    terrorists never discover the secret.

    • outandabout says:

      sorry to hear about your cancer, Ted. It stalks us all. All I can say is I hope I make it to your age and there are plenty who haven’t and if there is any sort of existence after death it will be the same for everyone ever born and will have nothing to do with this horrible god of the Bible, Torah and Koran. We got it wrong.

  20. Ted says:

    Thanks for your kind thoughts outandabout they’re
    greatly appreciated. Keep getting the prostate checked,
    It’s not a big problem if they catch it before metastasis.
    Best wishes Ted.

  21. Imgonaburn says:

    Oh dear…more trumpeting from Mess…..boring!

  22. Josh says:

    Yes i just watched the video about Mr Lett esquire asking witnesses to give what bugged me about what he was saying was that with all the money they received from the sale of the Branch facilities in Brooklyn they should have heaps of money if they were so cash strapped why were they able to then turn about and build a fancy new facility out near Wallkill with slave labour i don’t buy this cash grab give us your money from Mr Lett watchtower would and should have lots of money from the days when they sold books mags and brochures and only stopped when the US government said they would start to tax the for it well you only pay tax if you make a profit so obviously Watchtower Inc was indeed making a handsome profit or it would not have been necessary to stop selling mags.

    • Big B says:

      Josh;

      Enjoyed your observations on the mendicant begging by Brother Lett. It’s truly a pathetic situation the Watchtower finds itself in. However, did all of the monetary gain made from the Brooklyn properties go to the new palatial construction at Wallkill or are they cash strapped due to millions of dollars spent on child abuse judgements and hush money settlements world wide?

      They can’t produce literature without the money for paper, ink, etc for their presses. Besides, nobody except maybe the 8 million “sheeple” read that stuff anyway. No scholarly work there, to be certain. Nobody quotes the Watchtower publications for anything other than to show those who inquire of their antiquated, medieval mindset. Most of the magazines printed wind up lining the waste cans at the gas stations from that mornings witnessing efforts. I can attest to that.

      Biggest day at door to door witnessing I’ve ever had was on a Saturday morning a half century ago in Richmond, Va where I placed 22 magazines at 5 cents apiece! Before I faded you couldn’t give the magazines away even if offered for no contribution. Soon the friends will have to download their study copies and other literature from JW.org as the printing of literature fades from memory. My entire “theocratic library”, with literature going back to the 1950’s, was purposely devoted to the recycle bin and it took two separate pickups to get rid of this outdated, worthless, shelf stealing stuff.

      I was elated beyond belief and to me it represented a final break and a final farewell to this soul sucking, life draining, time banditry nonsense that dares to call itself “Jehovah’s Earthly Organization”. What insane, delusional hubris!

  23. Ted says:

    Tranquillo, Thanks for your support it’s much appreciated.

  24. messenger says:

    A very interesting observation. No one here except me to my recollection other than active JWS every uttered one single peep or cry about JUDGING against the many commenters like outandabout, resisted, or Caroline when they raised disgusting judgmental remarks about God, the Bible, JWS or Christians. So in actuality its not the condemning or judgment you mind or even crude remarks. That is unless you’re a hypocrite. I judge people’s comments here for several reasons. Although this is the least important reason I do so, it is one of the reasons.

    Atten hut. All hypocrites to the rear. Forgive my grammar, my phone has mind of. It’s own. Not here so much anymore. More action MIXING IT UP with active JWS who cannot offer scriptures that prove WT teachings like no birthday celebrations. Check in with you folks later.

    • outandabout says:

      I do actually sympathize with you, messenger. Yours is an absolute belief and that brings problems.
      Having been forced to concede so much, religion now comes at us with an ingratiating smile…..but lets not forget how badly it behaved when it could – the result of absolute belief. Insight lost.
      Did you ever happen to watch Blue Planet Two? – hydrocarbons – the molecules that are the basic component of all living things are being ‘created spontaneously’ at volcanic vents deep under the sea. It’s long been speculated that life began in the oceans. Like a womb.
      Absolute belief prevents you from even considering the possibility.

  25. Ted says:

    Big B, The staggering amount of obsolete literature,
    (literally junk) was one of the things that woke my wife up,
    we had 25 years worth of that stuff, it wasn’t even good
    for reference especially those Tuesday book study volumes
    with myriads of types and anti types all now abandoned.

    All those wasted nights studying nonsense that some
    anonymous individual had dreamt up. Those mind
    numbing books were even offered to the public I felt
    somewhat guilty doing that, knowing that many of us
    JWs couldn’t get our heads round the contents, But
    we had set quotas to meet, I’m so glad to be shut of
    it all and able to enjoy freedom of thought and expression.

    • Big B says:

      Ted,

      Yes indeed, those types and anti type comparisons between ancient Jerusalem and Babylon the Great. Also the doctrines of Freddie Franz and his wonderful 1975 Biblical timetables and charts showing each Creative Day as exactly 7,000 years long. Definitely not taught or mentioned anymore. I wonder why?

      Watchtower and Awake subscription campaigns having to print, in triplicate, the householders information because the forms didn’t have carbon paper to make copies! One copy to the householder, one to the Society and one for the congregation. Many of the friends used to give the subscriptions to family and friends, for the correct contribution of course, then you could make your required 2 subscriptions for the campaign.

      Of course those “gifts” were unappreciated and many were returned to the Watchtower as “Return to Sender” at a per piece price, charged by the United States Post Office, instead of the much cheaper Bulk Mailing Rate for the initial mailing. Thus the friends had to deliver the subscriptions themselves, that were mailed to the congregation. Again the friends were doing this on their own time expending their own gas! That’s when the magazine subscription campaigns came to an ignominious end, it cost the Society money and the friends bitched about delivering the literature like the postman! At least the postman is paid for his/her time and not an unpaid volunteer.

      Yes Ted, all those cherished beliefs that pushed the friends into greater preaching activity are now consigned to the wastecan of “Things we used to believe as the TRUTH but were replaced by the ever changing ‘New Light’”. This organization has been around for longer than 100 years and they still can’t get their doctrines straight due to constant “adjustments” and “New Light”. The Jehovah’s Witnesses version of Truth is a constantly changing and continuing moving target that they will never be able to hit!

      Just as the AIDS virus constantly changes within the victims to fool the body’s defensive system the Society’s changes/adjustments are designed to fool their adherents and is just as deadly as they destroy free thinking and free will.

  26. Ted says:

    Hi outandabout about, Thankfully religion doesn’t have
    the absolute power of former times, when it devised the
    most terrible tortures and means of death to terrify people
    into subjection. WT 1953 Nov 15. article seems to regret
    the passing of those “Good old days” stating “The law of
    the land and of God through Christ forbid us to kill apostates”.
    However the same article recommends the mental and
    emotional torture of shunning. When is the law going to
    address this!

  27. Whip It says:

    I just watched one of Lloyds video’s on You Tube, about an Australian Couple who have got out on the Borg, one of the things they said that made me nod in agreement was at the time the Silver Sword was released 2 things happened the GB became more seen & the whole Org was dumbed down, and now the begging for money, you can see them going broke.

  28. Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol says:

    Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all founded on the Myth of the Chosen Nation. 3500 years ago, one particular Mesopotamian tribe decided to set themselves apart as Special. Today we refer to the descendants of all those Mesopotamian/Canaanite tribes collectively as Arabs. If anything in the Bible is to be believed, Abraham, Father of the Hebrews, hailed from Ur of Chaldea (Babylon). Ur was in present-day Iraq. If you don’t believe me, check Google Maps. So the Jews are, in fact, Iraqis, Chaldeans, Babylonians. The Jews are not different from the Arabs. The Jews are not related to the Arabs. The Jews are not cousins of the Arabs. Jews are Arabs. Period.

  29. Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol says:

    I see on Lloyd’s twitter feed that none of the Women’s Aid organizations he contacted have yet responded to his messages regarding the Abusive Policies of the Watchtower Society. What could it be that they are afraid of?
    And if I may get a little snitty, in reference to my pseudonym, why aren’t my heroes, the Police, very aggressive in cleaning up my community from pedophiles and drug dealers and other thugs? How is it they are portrayed in the Media as supermen, crashing out of high-rise windows, an Uzi in each hand, combating terrorists, etc., when in reality the vast majority of police officers never fire their weapon in the line of duty, never are involved in a high-speed chase, nor, oddly enough, ever jump from a moving helicopter, chase a bad man on a Seadoo, or even engage in hand-to-hand combat with a ruthless terrorist. Strange, huh? And why does the public seem to eat up this mindless Propaganda? It may be a good idea for the cops to clean up their own communities before they start strapping on their Jet Packs and embark on missions to apprehend Global Terrorists.

  30. outandabout says:

    Hi, Ted….yeah, I dunno whats wrong with the law. If WT was say, a football club instead of a religious organisation, the Feds would have marched into the WT headquarters at the slightest sniff of child abuse armed with a bevy of computer geeks and not left the building until every scrap of evidence was collected. Watchtower and Witnesses don’t think about that and yet they’re busting to and will cry ‘persecution’ if somebody so much as looks sideways at them. Weak!
    To back that up, just look what happened to Sir Cliff Richard. There was a sniff of abuse so they raided his house and put him through two years of hell and nearly wrecked him and found nothing.
    Religion has historically gotten away with murder and continues to do so. Religion needs to be persecuted as much as possible to bring everything ‘predicted’ to a head so that we can all watch nothing happen and then move on.

  31. outandabout says:

    messenger, if you’re listening…..you said the bible story is that Jesus came back. Does that mean we’re waiting for his third appearance and not his second?

  32. Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol says:

    So the JW Sweetheart Serena Williams lost her Big Match. In her usual style, she badmouthed the judge. And when she was called out for it, she cried Sexism, claiming that John McEnroe did the same thing. Well, I believe McEnroe’s style was a little different. He contested the calls more than the actual judges. His catchphrase was “You cannot be serious!” Williams made it personal. She attacked the integrity of the judge, even calling him/her a “thief”. It seems Ms. Williams is not as good a tennis player as she wishes she was, and knows it. I haven’t been watching her games, but, as a layman, my guess is that her secret is in her stroke. Those thick arms can really nail that little ball. Unfortunately, the rest of her body is just as thick, limiting her speed and agility. So she tries to make up for it with her big mouth. She resorts to slander, intimidation, and straight-up bullying to unfairly influence the outcome in her favour. Then when she’s called out, she does an abrupt about-face and starts playing the victim. She may not be a practicing JW but she certainly has picked up a trick or two from the Watchtower Society. Too bad it cost her $17,000. No worries though. She can get her rich Muslim husband to foot the bill.

    Too harsh? Before any Bleeding Hearts accuse me of being hateful, consider this: Ever been to the zoo? Ever been by the tiger cage? Were you impressed? Do you like tigers? Of course you do. Everyone loves tigers. They’re beautiful animals. Powerful. Majestic. Now suppose you are hiking through the jungle. And suppose for argument’s sake, you have a gun. And suppose a hungry tiger comes charging out of the bushes at you. Will you shoot it? Unless you are suicidal, or a fool, you will. Why? Because you hate it? Or because you want to survive?

  33. Ted says:

    Witnessing to JWs, The subject of changed teaching
    invariably crops up and they’ll refer to increasing light
    and how the disciples didn’t understand Jesus sayings
    until later on, which of course is true Luk, 18:34. –>

    I think the thing to ask at this point is “did Jesus ever
    predict anything that was false, untrue, that had to be
    changed later on”. The response from the bro,or sis,
    will surely be a resounding No, ‘this of course is in
    complete contrast to the many 100% U, Turns made
    by their org,

    It has to approached kindly, tactfully, the minute they
    realise you have good knowledge , sound arguments,
    they’ll withdraw, it’s like “I don’t want to hear this”.
    I was speaking to a bro, manning a cart only 2 weeks
    ago, and after a short discussion he said , “lets change
    the subject” and asked me about general things
    hobbies etc, it’s sad, I felt sorry for him .

    I’m still learning maybe I’ll do better next time. incidentally
    I’m not recommending the Gospels or The whole of Jesus
    teachings, but that’s another subject.

  34. Ted says:

    Additional thought to previous comment. The excuse of
    imperfect men in control is often used as reason for
    failed prophesies, u turns etc. It could then be asked
    “Is not Jesus in control of his org, They have categorically
    stated that the risen Jesus oversees the Christian cong,
    WT, Sept, 15, 2010 pp 21-25 among many.
    In any org. that I know of the overseer carries the can for
    any error, his is the prime responsibility. So it’s just another
    feeble evasion

  35. Ted says:

    So the disciples didn’t understand some of Jesus sayings
    at the time they were given, maybe each had their own
    ideas as to what he meant, but there’s no record of any
    of them publishing their own thoughts as indisputable
    truth. Such cannot be said of those who claim to be
    his anointed modern day disciples.

    • Ricardo says:

      Good point Ted. I hadn’t thought of that.

    • eyes opened says:

      Hi Ted, remember Jesus said he was sending a helper which he did at Pentecost so they were able to understand things. Now they realized this was to be a heavenly kingdom for one thing. And while they didn’t know the day or hour, things would happen, they did know the generation. Another interesting thing is Prov 4:18…by reading the whole chapter it would seem it has to do with the bright path of righteousness vs the path of the wicked and nothing o do with “new light” understandings. Sometimes things are more simple than we realize.

      I hope in your situation you are able to receive quality care and comfort as you deal with your health issues. All the best Ted.

      Peace

      • tranquillo says:

        Eyes opened, by the way Jesus promised a lot of things to be accomplished by the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit. “He shall teach you all things”, for one. If you read what it really had to do the Holy Spirit, it seems to me that is just the biggest failed prophecy of the Bible

        • eyes opened says:

          Hi tranquillo,

          Thank you for offering a reply. I’m not exactly sure what part of the prophecy you feel has failed, but that could be because I believe Revelation was written pre-70 and that Armageddon was the destruction of Jerusalem in which case much was fulfilled. I do believe that parts of Revelation, the resurrection and no more death and so on, is still to be fulfilled. I definitely don’t have all the answers but so far that’s what makes the most sense to me. I do try to figure things out because I believe we have a creator and while I take some things in the Bible with a grain of salt, I believe there are some beneficial truths to be found. I do not find those truths with the org. Anyway I enjoy the shared ideas and the research.

          Regards

  36. Whip It says:

    Lethal Weapon, my wife & i watched Serena loose a match at one of the other tournaments, we love watching her loose, then when she beat Venus at the US open she thanked Jehovah as usual, when she was having her tirade in the Final i made the point to my Wife, that i would love to be in the crowd and hold up a sign stating “Where’s Jehovah Now Serena”, in 2009 she used the F word when abusing the Line Person, she should be in the Back Room getting counsel, don’t you think, the Tiger analogy was ok, i would have used a Wild Gorilla myself. hehe

    • LWDP says:

      Good point. I was just thinking that myself after I posted that comment. It’s amazing how bad behaviour can turn a beautiful tiger into a disgusting gorilla. People may disagree with me, but it seems we are presently living in a culture of bad behaviour, bullying, and cheating. Speaking of Venus, I was reading that, allegedly, some of the matches between her and her sister were fixed by their dad or something. And of course why the hell would God care who wins a f—-ing tennis game? JWs criticize athletes for praying before a game, and nations for praying to God for victory in war. But that hypocrisy is pretty much par for the course now. Old news. As I said, this two-faced stuff is all around us. The President of the United States is a big Cheat who by his own admission has evaded paying income tax for the last 20 years. He even bragged about it. Back in ‘16, during the campaign, he promised to disclose his tax returns after his alleged “audit” was over. Still no returns. Of course, the “audit” was pure fiction. Lies, lies, lies. The 2016 Election was fixed, a Cheat. Everyone knows that by now. SSSelected, not elected. What is left but to feel sorry for such people? You are what you do. Disgusting behaviour breeds disgusting people. Such ones truly fit the definition of Loser.

  37. outandabout says:

    I see the Catholic sex abuse scandal is ‘growing faster than they can contain it’ and one of the reasons put forward by Francis for all this sex abuse is the Devil….”He tries to uncover the sins, so they are visible in order to scandalize the people.” So what’s he saying here?…..abuse is the Devils fault and not the Vatican’s? Still failing to face the truth and these people are just like WT – self serving and arrogant in their delusion. Reality eludes them all.

    • Ricardo says:

      @outie, let the Catholics come up with the stupid excuses, and let those stupid excuses be exposed. So when the Witnesses come up with the same type of excuses they can be humiliated further.

    • Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol says:

      No, apparently the Devil’s crime is in “uncovering” the sins! Naughty Devil, those sins/crimes are supposed to remain secret!!!!!!!!!!!

  38. Ricardo says:

    I have just heard my ex has been reinstated. She had jumped into bed with a Pakistani and had gotten pregnant then d’fed. She gave me a pathetic apology via sms out of the blue saying she was sorry for being stupid and wrecking the marriage. She has never admitted to me that she committed adultery and has never apologized to my son for abandoning him and not contacting him for the past three years. I did send an email to her elders shortly after I received her pathetic apology. I also made it clear to them that she is a covert narcissist. Still she was able to get reinstated. How is that possible?

    • Big B says:

      Doesn’t surprise me one bit, Ricardo.

      This lamebrain organization has even reinstated convicted murderers in prison serving life sentences without the hope of release. Go figure. Even convicted pedophiles are welcomed back into the congregation with open arms without having to undergo psychiatric visitation to get them straightened out. Should we expect any different actions by these “spiritual shepherds” when it comes to those who practiced adultery or fornication? As far as Narcissism is concerned, well what can be said except she should fit right in with the rest of those “sheeple”!

      Disfellowshipped people, gross sinners (not protestors or whistle blowers) should be kept out of the Christian congregation, period. If their heart is truely repentant, then God will forgive them whether they are reinstated or not. Jesus reads hearts, no one else. They can sit in the back of the Hall and dummy up but forgive them without showing or doing something that befits repentance, just an “I’m sorry, really I am”, not a snowballs chance in Hell! Is this unkind, perhaps Pharisaic on my part? Perhaps so however, I don’t associate with gross sinners in my daily life and I don’t see why I have to give them my time in a house or worship either. I may speak to them, but that’s about it.

      I told my ex-wife to get her absolution from God, that I was in no possible position to receive it or forgive her adultery. She has never again tried to apologized after my rebuff and has now been married two more times since our divorce. She’s getting her just deserts and I enjoy watching her twisting in the wind making one stupid life altering mistake after another.

      I don’t believe that contacting her elders was the wisest thing to do as you are disfellowshipped, right? Besides, they’re on their own mission from the Society as they follow their “Come back to Jehovah” campaign (so that we can abuse and exploit you some more)!

      Take care my friend,

      Big B

    • Tranquillo says:

      Ricardo, any kind of sin can be easily forgiven by WT$$$ unless the worst of all of them: speaking against the holy organization. There is no absolution for that and you will forever be regarded as dangerous. It is simply clear that if you know too much about WT$$ you won’t ever contribute in cash, so why in hell have you back?

  39. Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol says:

    Believer: God wants you to do this, that, and the other.
    Infidel: Oh, so you have met God?
    Believer: No.
    Infidel: Then how dare you presume to speak for Him?
    Believer: Well, dear, I have read his book, the Bible/Koran/Torah.
    Infidel: Oh, well I have read “Gone With the Wind.” I suppose that entitles me to speak for Margaret Mitchell.
    Believer: Does not compute…does not compute…does not compute……

  40. Whip It says:

    Ricardo,

    Hey there, we just attended the Sunday at the Assembly hall, i believe your old circuit was their, we were out of our own group, The showman Gary was on show, he decided that we would not finish at 3.50, because he wanted to bring the Aslan people in so they could sing the final song again in front of us, so we were allowed to finish at 4.30, yeah some people have to drive a few hours you know, & yes i was their to keep peace in my House, anyway, they maxed out the place, no spare seats or car parks left, trouble brewing, where is the money to build another one in North Brisbane, remember doing away with food service, to save money, doing away with boondal, to save money, selling KH, to make money, on & on it goes.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It, there has been talk of a new assembly hall north of Brisbane for some time. But surely with all the cost cutting it won’t be done. Surely.

      Gary sent a letter to the cong which d’fed me saying that I have been counseled repeatedly for my negative attitude while in Australia. He made it sound like the elders had taken me to the back room many times and given me a talking to. But they hadn’t done that even once. I can’t even think in recent times where elders have given me any counsel for my attitude. But at Gary’s last CO visit I took him to task for the child abuse scandals. He didn’t like that. I think I really p*ssed him off. He knew I had to be kicked out because I knew too much.

      What’s the go with the Asian brothers singing the last song? (Perhaps the Samoans)? Is Gary complaining about the Australians singing? After his last CO visit we had a local needs where the elder had the cong practice our singing and then he asked all the elders to the stage to sing together and give the cong a good example.

      It is this superficial nonsense which disappoints me. Of all the problems the cong has, and the pathetic effort put in by the elders to do shepherding and show they care, what is off greatest concern? Singing. Yeh, right. That’s going to make things better, isn’t it? Who says: I think I’ll go to the kingdom hall to hear some singing? This sort of superficial nonsense just adds to the nails in the coffin of the org. But nobody sees it. Nobody says anything criticising it. Because that would be negative. And we know what happens to negative people. They get kicked out .

      • Big B says:

        Shepherds actually doing shepherding work, like visiting the elderly and infirm? Imagine that! Pigs will fly first!

        Elders are as worthless as breasts on a boar hog or tits on a Tom cat! That goes double for the Circuit Overseers too.

        Two different examples with the same result comes to my mind. Namely, my Mom, wife of a presiding congregational elder, wasn’t visited by her spiritual shepherds the entire time she was at home suffering from the onset of dymentia. She had even given one of them a vehicle as a gift but this elder could not break away from his nonsensical door to door ministry to speak words of comfort to my Mom, who was a publisher for over 60 years!

        Do you think for one damn minute that I allowed my mother’s funeral to be hijacked as another chance to showcase Jehovah’s Witnesses stupid beliefs? Not a chance; my brother and I held our own prayer at the cemetery privately. No songs, no talks, no nothing, just our prayers, memories and thoughts.

        Same thing with my Uncle, a presiding Overseer in his congregation, a Witness for over 60 years. His entire time in the nursing home in assisted care was spent by himself without visitation from his so called “friends” or his lame “spiritual shepherds”. Why the hell not? He was, like my Mom a Christian in good standing in the Congregation. Why didn’t he merit a visit from his spiritual shepherds?

        The reason is plain to see and really quite human. Both my Mom and my Uncle were proof positive of the real truth. Namely the reality of the eventual death of everyone including those deluded shepherds and they hadn’t the courage to face their delusional beliefs head on. Out of sight, out of mind. They don’t want to be reminded of the truth or reality of their own eventual demise. It’s just painful and depressing to think about.

        Yeah, Armageddon will soon be here! I won’t taste death at all, yeah that’s it, that’s the ticket! Dream on you miserable purveyors of pernicious prophecy and propaganda. Reality is coming and sooner or later you will have to meet it head on!

        • outandabout says:

          Hi Big B, your post reminded me of our family friend who died disillusioned, depressed and unvisited in an old folks home. Depressed? Why? Shouldn’t she be happy knowing that sometime after death all her atoms were going to miraculously re-assemble themselves into a perfect body? I suppose after decades of being told she wasn’t going to die, here she was faced with the reality of it all and realizing she’d been duped just like 8 million others. Suddenly, resurrection is less believable when staring down both barrels of death after decades of it being a long way off and easier to believe. Like car accidents- they only happen to other people.
          Saw a cart downtown today. Tucked in a corner just doing their time knowing they’re trying to sell crap that no one wants or needs. Standing brave for God, but in a corner hoping to be missed. Nicely dressed though.
          Something interesting happened to me – I’m an Atheist but we just lost a couple of dear friends in a tragic accident. I miss them dearly and found myself thinking spiritual thoughts. Not of God but some other existence and I realized that this is how religion gets in – no matter how smart or dumb a person is, we;re all susceptible to our fears and emotions and that’s what gets used against us to great success.

          • eyes opened says:

            To Big B and outandabout, interesting comments both of you. You paint a very true picture of the reality faced by older ones. After years and years of hearing I may not have to die, I now realize I will have to come to terms with many eventualities I didn’t expect to face. You are so right about counting those hours. So much more important to ride around in a car in rural territory all day, getting out 2 or 3 times with no one home, taking an hour and a half donut break, so much more important than looking after widows, orphans and others in need, NOT! I know a man who was a pioneer, he began to feel so guilty about counting hours instead of helping a couple ailing friends in need. He is awake now, no more delusions. And he is a genuinely good man who does things for others that is beneficial and helpful. Ahhh waking up is so nice!

            Peace

      • Whip It says:

        Ricardo, it was the Oslan people, the death ones that came in, i said to my wife & few others that Gary looks like one of the Muppets, he is a complete Fraud, when i was an elder i missed the Elders school due to work, i said i can go to another one, Gary wanted me removed, it didnt happen at that time, but the daggers were out, as i said they are in trouble in Brisbane, so many people are moving in & 2 many have to share it, where we live, we used to go to a local civic centre thats 30 minutes away, well they changed the border & now 2 plus hour drive to Brisbane each way, watching & waiting for the implode!!!!!

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