Welcome to JWsurvey.org, the online voice for Jehovah’s Witnesses of the past, present, and future.
JWsurvey.org is the proud home of the annual Global Survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you are, or ever have been, a Jehovah’s Witness – please take this survey! (A link is in the top right hand corner of this page, on the image that says “have your say!”).
Even if you were never actually baptized or have been away from the Witnesses for many years, we encourage you to use your voice and share your opinions regarding the Watch Tower Society, and its leaders the Governing Body.
If you are a current or former Witness, you will know only too well that doubts are not permitted among the brothers, and the Governing Body expects and demands your unquestioned loyalty. If there is any teaching you are uncertain of, you must “wait on Jehovah,” which effectively means burying your doubts and pretending they never existed. Over time, these suppressed doubts accumulate until you are nothing more than a robot, going through the motions and doing what is expected of you – but never truly believing it 100%.
If this describes your current situation, then please be assured there are hundreds if not thousands like you who are at various stages of waking up to the reality of the JW faith. As you probably suspect already, there is more to this religion than meets the eye, and Watchtower literature has not been telling you the full truth about the organization’s history.
The trouble is, even if you no longer agree with the Governing Body on a number of issues, you may feel (as many do) that you are bound to the organization against your will through the cruel practice of shunning. Though the Society argues that shunning is scriptural, it is actually anything but. Shunning was instituted by the Apostle Paul to keep congregations clean – not as an instrument for tearing families apart.
This and many other damaging practices are dealt with periodically on my blog, which I encourage you to check from time to time. I do my very best to keep Witnesses informed as to what is REALLY going on in the organization, rather than giving them the sort of carefully-manicured information you will find in JW.org articles and press releases.
Please enjoy using this site, and treat it as though it is yours. After all, here you are free to be yourself and exchange opinions about the organization with others. All we ask is that you do NOT try to use our website as a platform for evangelizing either religious or atheistic views. This website is religiously-neutral and has been set up as an indoctrination-free sanctuary. We appreciate your help and cooperation in keeping it that way.
We hope you find the information on JWsurvey useful, and we trust our efforts can play some small part in your spiritual journey. Remember: You are no longer the silent majority. Your opinion matters. Now make it count!
I am one of Jehovah’s Witness. And all you people are entitled to believe what you want and to blame whoever you want for your plight in life. The greatest give Jehovah gave us is the right to choose. Regardless of what bible you read you can only feed at one of two tables, there are no other choices, unless you chose that there is no god and we just popped up from some type micro that just happen to be floating around, However that is fine to. Did you know that there is no other Christian belief that is spoken badly about as JW’s are, in the whole world and by their own formal members at that.
Did you know that Jesus and the apostles said that the true religion will be spoken abusively like that and that it will come from within the organization. He also said at matt 7:15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves” Did you know he meant that there will be some bad people in the congregation, he made that clear at verse 21.
Did The governing body handle the molestation cases correctly, I do not know, maybe not, they are not perfect maybe they where wrong. but does that make our beliefs wrong no. The apostles made many mistakes, but were they wrong no. At the end of the day I am a JW because I want to be one not brained washed. I have 4 kids, the oldest does not talk to me because of by beliefs, she disfellowshipped me. (She is not baptized) the second oldest does not care we at times talk about it, but he likes his life. The second youngest she is gay and a police officer and believes god will except her for being gay. (though any bible says other wise) The youngest, like me, is a baptized witness and a pioneer. (He just left to the meeting). They all made there choices and will be judged by them.
My point is this: You all made your choices, something in your heart or in your mind caused you to want to sit at another table, mental aguish, reprogrammed, give me a break. Your heart & desires lead you a different direction.
I was baptized in 1994 in 2000 I became inactive, I just left with no regrets or deprograming just like the rest of you. why? because I had other desires, immoral desires, (unless you believe in the bible there is no immoral desires because that is the only way we no that). So my wife of 27 yrs who cannot stand that I am a JW (She has no beliefs and celebrates Christmas every year) in 2005 woke up one morning and took me to the kingdom hall. Why because she realized that me living by Bible standards was better for the marriage. Remember no bible no morals, like “thou shall not steal’ is from the bible not Einstein.
It is just your desires, Jesus said that many will fall away from the truth and that was what you did. No brainwashing requiring deprograming.
At the end of the day all that you truly are doing is helping to show that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the true religion because you are part of the phenomena Jesus spoke about will happen to the true religion. Research it this does not happen to any other Christian belief.
Thank you for your time Mike
Poky44055@hotmail.com
@Mike,
This is the second article you have commented on and I have replied. As an active Jehovah’s Witness, you are sure spending a lot of time on an apostate site! Don’t let your elders find out or they may have to counsel you! LOL.
There are some 43,000 denominations of Christianity and the JWs are the only right one, eh? The other 42,999 are all the “other table” you mention? No other Christian religion is spoken bad about except JWs? Mormons get a pretty bad wrap, along with others. In fact many “worldly” folks know little about the JWs other than the fact that they wake them up with their door knocking on a Saturday morning. Oh and nobody leaves except to pursue an immoral lifestyle – I’ve heard that before too, but found it to be untrue.
It’s sad that you are alienated from some of your children due to the influence of a cult. You mentioned doing research. Since you obviously don’t mind perusing “apostate” sites, check out some of the thorough research on jwfacts.com. It may surprise you.
Best of luck to you in your research.
WS
Mike, all your assumptions are just that! Assumptions! All incorrect btw.
Mike
You said “Did you know that Jesus and the apostles said that the true religion will be spoken abusively like that and that it will come from within the organization.”
This is known as a persecution complex, and it is what binds Jehovah’s Witnesses to their belief structure. Witnesses need a common enemy to be strong, and they believe “Satan” is the common enemy, and that “apostates” are controlled by Satan. None of this is true.
Personally I spent 46 years in the organization and was faithful in every way. I never left, I never viewed apostate material, and I was deeply involved in every aspect of the organization. But in the end, I had to admit to myself that it simply was not the truth.
We greatly respect your right to be a Witness, and we support freedom of speech and religion. But guess what? Jehovah’s Witnesses do not support this. They quote the United Nations aticles of human rights, but they simultaneously deny the right of a Witness to leave the organization without depriving them of friends and family through the use of shunning. This is by no means Christian and does not represent in any way the loving act of the creator you believe in.
As for the standards you believe originate with the Bible, they do not originate with the Bible. Kindness, goodness, love and considerate behavior do not belong to any religious manual, they are a function of who we are as human beings. However many people wish to associate these principles in the guidebooks promoted by their faith, whether they are from Scientology, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Catholic Church, or anywhere else.
It is fascinating that you believe we are “helping to show that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the true religion” – you are sadly deluding yourself in believing this. The information and articles we share help many persons to understand that indeed there is no “true religion” – this is a phantom concept which perpetuates the idea that there is only one true path to enlightenment. . There is no such path.
The God you believe in is quite frankly fabricated, and the idea that only Jehovah’s Witnesses are “persecuted” for their faith is simply a technique used to make you believe that you are on the narrow and persecuted belief that only a true Christian would experience. Every bit of reasoning you used comes not from the Bible (as you are inclined to believe) – but comes from the books and magazines of a publishing empire in existence for more than 100 years. Further evidence of the absurdity of it all has been the hundreds of changes in doctrine which demonstrate that JW doctrine is developed as a reaction to the social and political events of the 20th and 21st centuries.
thankfully they have made their way out of the organization and gained freedom, while you exist as a remaining holdout, a defender of that which you have been told to believe. I deeply sympathize with this, as I know what it is like to be in this position.
In the end – yes, you are entitled to your faith and believe anything you wish. However we will continue to educate and inform individuals of the dangers of indoctrination, deadly and unscriptural blood transfusion policy, and the insanity of shunning, which no god in any universe would practice as a measure to keep his “followers” in subjection.
Meanwhile – let’s see some research – let’s see you do your homework and prove the points you are attempting to make. You will find that they are non-existent, but only prevail in the journals of the Watchtower and their literature. This is what indoctrination is all about, and we hope one day you are free of this.
Wishing you all the best
JR
Mike,
I at one time slung angry insults and proof texts to these fine men who have made this site and taken time out of their lives to help others.
5 years ago I was especially focused on Cedars (Lloyd Evans) and aggressively tried to prove my faith. My efforts, thanks to cognitive dissonance, were based on my doubts and my efforts to correct what I feared… the truth. My and I disassociated ourselves in November of 2016. We did not leave to lead immoral lives, we did not do anything wrong, nor have we planned to do so… we simply opened our eyes to the fact that the Watchtower was not true.
Reading your post, made me remember saying and doing similar things to these very men. And here I stand, disassociated, because I knew deep in my heart I was doubting and I was afraid because the watchtower would take everything dear to me away… my family, friends and even livelihood if I stayed employed with people there.
I do not envy you at this point because if you decide to stay knowing it is not true, you will have the very same negative impacts on emotional and physical health that we and many others had for trying to stay put in order to keep a superficial friendship or connection.
I hope the best for you and if you do decide to leave, know that there are people who care out there.
-S
Mike, You state so many things that are correct, such as there is only ONE truth. The Bible clearly answers what that is, in fact the Lord Jesus Christ himself said in John 14:6 ‘I AM the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE’
There is only ONE way to the Father, Yahweh and that is through Jesus Christ, although I now prefer to call him Yeshua.
You also state that JWs are the most hated religion…False, Christians are being slaughtered every day for faith in Jesus Christ.
You mentioned also False Prophets, WOW, what a nerve to actually state that. I lived through 1975 and was an Elder back then…False Prophecy…also in 1914, 1925, Rutherford, stated in 1919, ‘Millions NOW living will NEVER Die’ try telling that to all those dead Watchtower Followers back then, who sold businesses and houses…
My Father served for years as a Regular Pioneer and so did my Mother who had only 1 leg. They both believed they would never die and go into the Paradise Earth.
All my family are dead, my younger Brother and even younger Sister.
By the way, I got married back in 1967 to my dear wife, who was a Regular Pioneer at the time as I was. We have been married almost 50 years now and never had a sexual relationship with anyone else. So do not accept the lies from the Society that ALL people who leave, do so for sexual reasons. We left because we knew it was full of lies and deception. My own wife was abused way back in the 1950s at 8 years old, by her older Ministerial Servant Brother In Law.
So who are the Oppressive Wolves? Certainly not real Christians who love one another and most of all Bend the knee to Jesus Christ as you should do, if you accept what the Apostle Paul told the Philippians in chapter 2….
In fact EVERYONE will bend the knee to the name ABOVE every other name….those in Heaven, those on Earth and those under the earth…according to Paul…but then maybe the latest NWT distortion may have edited that out. just as they changed Hebrews 1:6 years ago….if ALL the Angels Worship Jesus, did he Worship himself? Just does not make sense…
It seems dear Mike you are the one who is Blinded as 2 Corinthians states in 4:4, where it says ‘lest the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them’
The WT love to use this scripture, but only to highlight Satan, NOT the remedy…Jesus Christ himself….wake up before it is too late…we are deep into End Times and we all need Yeshua.
Jesus also said “The gates of hell will not prevail against his Church” therefore since the JWs are only 150years old there doctrine can not be true.
To Mike the JW: I too am an active JW. I agree we are the closest to the Bible’s teachings. But this does not let us off the hook if the organization is engaged in wrongdoing. In fact, we are even more ‘on the hook.’ I have been studying the child abuse saga since 2007. The Bible requires us to be ‘honest in all things.’ (Heb. 13:18) To be honest, we have a problem with our child abuse policy. The elders should report all allegations to police just as schools, daycare, and even the Boy Scouts do. BUT THEY DON’T. Once the elders confirm a brother molested a child,they should report him to the police so justice can be done. BUT THEY DON’T. And they should warn the families if a molester is present in the congregation. BUT THEY DON’T. And why? If you are honest, you know this is wrong. It is reckless. And it violates basic biblical principles. And not warning the congregation is a clear violation of the principle at Exodus 21:28, 29. I am trying to change the policy internally by speaking to elders, ministerial servants and I have written the branch twice in the past year. When the organization is wrong it is better that we correct it rather than wait for the world to do so.
JWs are “closest to the bible”—dear lord…….
Dear Mike, As you mentioned that your non JW wife took you back to the Kingdom Hall because you was a better husband living by the Watchtower rules ..
Dear Mike, do some research on website like this or on jwfacts.com how JW Organisation tis always changing their views….
Just think Mike… The Bible is changed..??? NO, why is the Watchtower always changing viewpoints …
Just think and pray for Holy Spirit from God , he will guide you..
And do research for a Church who follows the Bible better and not always changing..
Like C.T. Russell said if the Organisation need to to ask for money support it is NOT from God….
Now please be honest, In the Kingdom Hall they always ask for money (look the Meeting workbook of the week of Oct 16, 2017) they even showed a video how to donate (same as asking) , even the ice-cream money from the kids..
Please Mike think, and pray for guidance by Holy Spirit.
This Organiation is NOT from Jehovah but from Satan..
Blinding the people and brainwashing them.
God Bless you in your research
Mike , you mention Albert Einstein as an irrelevant example in comparison to the Bible. Did you know Albert Einstein was a huge advocate of Peace and not war. A book has been written Albert Einstein on Peace . I believe there is a world outside every religious doctrine .
I’m going to be a little harsh and criticize your inability to spell or use proper grammar. It seems to me that you are very naive and uneducated. Morals DO NOT come from the Bible. Atheists who don’t follow the Bible are not running around comitting murder or other immoral acts. Have you ever done any research or any reading outside of what you have been brainwashed to think? I highly doubt it. The Bible was written by MAN not GOD, that is clear and even stated in the Bible itself. The New Testament contains a considerable amount of correspondences between the apostles and various churches or followers of Christ. I’m sure that you know that Constantine, a Roman Emporor who converted to Christianity and then proceeded to standardize the religion by actually creating the Bible as we know it. They created a council that gathered up all the various scrolls/scripture of the time and proceeded to organize it and pick and choose what would and would not be taught. That was not God that was man. Think THINK THINK
@Zane,
You make it sound like a society without religion, an atheist society, will be fantastic. But, in reality, when such a society is formed, due to a lack of religious principles to guide people to decent behaviour, people suffer. Please watch the video about society in China, and then tell me if you really desire Europe and the rest of Western society to become like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfLnFVzfKBs&t=247s
I also encourage you to look at the productions of Prof. Niall Ferguson, who credits the West’s ability to advance on its Christian heritage in his series Civilization and the 5 killer apps the West has had, an advantage which the West is quickly losing.
“The Cotton Wool Cult Syndrome”
The whole point of all of this is ‘NOT’ about Christian beliefs in any form, its ‘NOT’ about the Bible in any form, its ‘NOT’ about you or any other Jehovah’s Witness!
Its about a ‘Cotton Wool Cult’ The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (WTB&TS). A non elected, seemingly harmless organisation that continually lies to its members and controls their lives and finances by ‘weaponizing’ the things in their lives that mean the most. They give ‘life changing powers’ to further non elected regional individuals, who are expected to control and suppress ‘ANY’ form of disobedience. The abuse of these appointments is simply immense, from causing and also suppressing dis-fellowship, suppressing domestic violence and child abuse reporting, promoting TAX evasion, encouraging benefit fraud, controlling financial contributions and capturing individuals personal and activity data without their knowledge. Even stopping individuals from applying for or taking jobs…
For the record:-
Mind control and psychological programming is something you don’t realise happens to you. That’s the whole point of it!
Most persecuted religion (Old) – Judaism (Early Christians to present day)
By definition, Catholicism is the worlds largest Cult.
1) No other Religion has made false prophecy more times than WTB&TS
2) No other Religion has changed doctrine more times than WTB&TS
3) No other religion has changed Bible text more times than WTB&TS
WB&TS claims that the Bible is seamless in its continuity and messaging throughout history. Russell spent most of his time in Egypt and actually said that the Great Pyramid was ‘The Bible On Earth’. His original Armageddon prophesy was actually calculated with measurements from the Great Pyramid! Rutherford, in a documented interview said he was in touch with Russell after his death! There is a great deal more! Is there any other Bible account of such lies and misguided false prophesy from a leader of Gods people? This is in just the first 50 years! Does this pop-up American religion sound like the beginning of a re-born religion and the path of truth and righteousness to take the world to Armageddon?
Here is the problem… When your life is scared and damaged by the WTB&TS and even if you do escape the ever changing doctrine, the basic Bible principles and direction for us to live our lives are sound. But you have been programmed that all other religions are ‘really’ bad.So, if you do believe in God and you want to live your life with ‘true’ Bible principles, what do you do? become agnostic? This for most / some is a struggle, denying possibly yourself and God! So where?
In ancient history, when invading armies freed slave populations its recorded that some slaves wanted to go back to being a slave and even sold themselves back into slavery, such was their ‘programming’ or psychological state. This is where I think you might be…
If ‘true’ Bible meaning is to be believed and its messages and principles accepted, the WTB&TS is absolutely not Gods delivery mechanism…
The Bible does support this, would it be wrong to assume, that if one follows, believes and acts on fundamental Bible principles, that ‘belief’ and belonging maybe our test. The Bible defines that this is in our hearts and something that cannot be programmed or controlled by ‘any’ religion and or cult. At the end of the day, if we believe, we will stand alone to be judged and not by mortal men with self imposed authority in any earthly organisation…
…And yet you eating from two tables. Be a good little Jw stop going on these “apostate” websites.stop missing meetings and read your NWT
Annerose. Are you just responding to his statements from February 2019 now?
You argue,“right to choose”? Witnesses have but one choice: follow the dictates of the Governing Body. Deviation triggers disfellowshipping and shunning. “brain washed”?
Moreover, neither the Witnesses nor their god shield its most vulnerable members, defenceless children, from sexual assaults. Ironically, it is the state, a state allegedly ruled by Satan, not your god, that comes to their aid.
If the bible is your moral compass, then you should follow its teachings: II Kings 13:14 [II Kings 13:8-12] II Kings 6:28-29
Mike, are you an elder? If not, why not? If you are an elder, what are you doing on an “apostate” website?
Hi Mike,
Certainly it is true you’ll run across some people who use terms like “cult” and “brainwashed” when they talk about Jehovah’s Witnesses. Personally I tend to avoid those terms, especially “brainwashed” because it tends to evoke a cartoon like notion of blank-stared individual who is unaware of their surroundings and willing to believe and act on the whim of whatever leader they are following.
It sounds like you have a lot going on in regards to your wife and children. I too have children — four girls who range in age from 28 to 13. The three oldest were raised in the faith whereas the youngest was just four when we left and so only remembers going to meetings as a youngster.
As to the points you make, I would only offer this caution — one must be careful about either/or reasoning. For example “no Bible, no morals.” Morality, including not stealing, is found in most cultures. Your comments reminded me of an Awake! article on logical fallacies like either/or reasoning. A Google search of jw.org suggests it was Awake! 1990, 5/22 12-14.
It is true that many religious people seek to curb negative behaviors within themselves. Immoral desires, as you mention, can be awful burden. Perhaps you can relate to Paul when he calls himself a “Miserable man” (Romans 7). If you find being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses helps with that, then I see that as positive. But don’t assume this is true of all who leave the faith. Many leave, simply because, they just don’t believe it is true. They see real gaps between claims of the faith and available evidence. That was true for me.
Kind regards,
-Randy
Of course there is morality without the Bible, and frankly the “morality” of the bible isn’t loving and just .
Religious and non-religious people try to do right by themselves and others–just as religious and non-religious people commit heinous crimes and atrocities.
@Mike. Hi Mike this is my 2nd response too You. Your latest comment is absurd threat the JW’s are the only ones being persecuted and hated in the world, therefore this makes them the only True religion on earth. Do you read the news what is happening to Christina groups all over the world? They are burning Churches and killing Christians all over the world RIGHT NOW and few if any are JW’s. In Egypt on January 1 a historical churched was bombed and dozens murdered, In Iraq HUNDREDS of thousands of Christians were run out of their homes and territories they had been in for hundreds of years.
Isis is beheading Christians and Raping the women. Probably in all of these instances none of them were JW”s? Why?BC there are ZERO JW”S in that part of the world!! The JW’s like to think that they are well known all over the world but the truth is quite different. Once you leave the Western world few people even know what a JW is. Even in the USA many don’t. Bottom line the WT and JW are insignificant, they mea nothing, Few even pay attention to them.Sure in USA and Western world they hang out on the streets with the apple carts soliciting their belief but few pay attention or care. They are not some special agents from God as they like to believe. So many Christians are killed all over the world for their faith daily and murdered and raped and jailed and tortured. Most are not JW’s. Yes, JW’s have some persecution in Russia, Korea and a few other places but NOTHING COMPARED to other Christians. SO your claim is not valid that they are the only ones being hated by everyone. That is a crazy unfounded claim.
Another point of dispute is the only reason people leave the JW”s is for “IMMORAL DESIRE” That is the old WT way of thinking and a copout. So did Raymond Franz leave so he could chase women? Was he immoral? Did all the 1000’s of people on these sites and others leave to chase women and men in a lust of passion? How about the fact that many left bc they could not in their conscience any longer teach something they know is not TRUE or like you said look up the facts and conclude this is NOT TRUE I have been HOOD winked by a Religious Corporation?
Mike? I respect your position if you want to be a JW but please don’t say that it is the only true religion and the proof is bc JW’s are talked bad by the outside world and if you leave you are immoral and committing immorality.
Mike? many of us wish the JW were true bc we put many years of our lives and families trying to believe it and putting our lives on hold trying from our hearts to live it but when we reach the conclusion it is not true we can no longer accept the false hoods and how we wasted our efforts and years of our lives. I always ask JW’s who are apologists like your self can you show me 1 prophecy or 1 prediction the WT made over the last 135 years that came true beyond a doubt? They have predicted and “Prophesied” 100’sof utterances and predictions over the years. Please, please show me 1 fulfillment that is without dispute and not generalizations like in the last day difficult times will be here etc, I need a :MEATY” truth you can show me that they accurately predicted. I am waiting fore your response. Thank you Mike.
First my apologies to Ms.Holy Connoli I never saw your first responses.
1)This is not a logical fallacies. It is a fact, my statement if you read carefully about morals is toward atheisms. No god, No bible, No morals. “Thou shall not steal” comes from the Bible not from Einstein. We learn that from generation to generation to appoint that it becomes a normal thought.
2) The term Christian when it comes to those who are persecuted that you mention is a generic term. For not all are of the same religious beliefs/denomination. and yes there are many so called Christians in the world persecuted because they are so called Christian. But only JW’s are persecuted because we are JW’s and what we believe. case and point this website.
3) “They see real gaps between claims of the faith and available evidence.” That part is true, I speak with many people of different faith and have many wonderful conversation about their beliefs and mine. So now I ask you, How do you handle the gaps that are now in your belief? So you know these people I talk, I do not use JW material, all I ask is that we use the entire copy of their bible or several other bibles. And do you know what, there is always a gap.
4) I did not state that people leave because they are immoral or if they leave they are immoral. I said I stopped to be immoral. So you know I never could be immoral to my wife. But she noticed a familiar pattern coming and she wanted to stop it.
5) The word used was desires not immoral desires. You leave because you desired something else, I do not care what it is, truth, lies, betrayal, immorality, atheism. my point is you leave because for what ever reason you found JW’s beliefs no longer to your liking. That is fine, but do not blame the JW’s for your plight in life. If your life is perfect now, I am sure it is not because of the JW’s, so it is true if your life is not good.
6) The statement “Please, please show me 1 fulfillment that is without dispute” It cannot be done. If you believe the bible to be true, regardless of religious beliefs, Than you believe the devil to be true and the type of power he exerts and freedom he has. I always like to say “The greatest tool made by Jehovah God to save our life “The Bible” is the same exact tool used by Satan to destroy it” Jesus and the apostles warned about that. That is where faith comes in. Like you and many others you lost that faith for whatever your reason(s) when it comes to the JW’s so you moved on.
6) If proof was shown to you. You still will not believe it requires faith. Jesus pointed that out in parable about Lazarus. As a point at my job, I once should a group of religious people the chronology on how it shows Jesus was going to be baptized on 29Ce. They loved it and started showing it around to other people kind of witnessing, it was pretty cool. I let that go on for about a week. Than I sat down with them using the same exact formula to show them 1914. All of a sudden I was liar and it was wrong. the same cool thing, they started bringing different dates, none the same dates, and those who could not find a different date just said I was wrong. the truth is if you do not want to know, than you just do not what to know.
7) I thank the both of you for taking the time to read and respond to my article. Thank you Mike
@ Mike again. Hi Mike. Again your reasoning is not consistent or even logical You say the Word Christian is a generic term? yes I agree but it does in 99% of cases refer to people who believe in Jesus Christ and the God of the bible and subscribe to some basic accepted doctrines in the bible. Of course they do not always agree and have several different interpretations JUST LIKE THE JW”S do but the JW’s continually change their believes regularly and more than any “CHRISTIAN” religion that I personally know of. You say ONLY JW’s are persecuted for what they believe and teach? Well, what the heck so you think these other Christians are being killed for? These other Christians are being killed bc they are CHRISTIANS and not for being other religions. As far as their faith goes and how much they believe no doubt it varies from person to person just like it does among JW’s.
I am nor sure what you refer to as GAPS in my beliefs but all religions have GAPS including the JW”S. In Fact they have the biggest gaps of all. The Gap of the overlapping generation is one of the latest ones they have come up with. How do you explain that GAP when for over 70 years they adamantly taught with no room for error that the generation of 1914 WILLNEVER< no doubt, an established truth NOT PASS away before the end came. Now that is an established GAP if I ever saw one.
Your comment about sharing the coming of the messiah at how he appeared in 28ce is fine and appears to be accurate from a biblical point of view and if yu belive int he bible is faith strengthening. I do agree,
However you cannot use the WT interpretation of 1014 and the 2520 days and expect people to agree with you for many reasons.
1. There is no proof that the 2520 days means 2520 years that is all speculation based on a pre Charles Russell interpretation by Miller an Adventist preacher and another earlier preacher. Look it up in the WT and JW FACTS, In WT world it also has to with the distance in the pyramids of Egypt. Also JW's are te only ones who believe 607 bce was the destruction of Jerusalem and I don't think the Gove body really believes it anymore but they are stuck with that date now bc of all the teachings they have built around it.
When I was a long time Elder I used to give that talk about Daniel and the 2520 years and I could tell something was wrong and it just did not add up and made no sense bc the WT would cherry pick scriptures out of thin air to support the teaching and out of context. They are pros at doing that till this day. 1914 is a HOAX and the WT must know it. Jesus did not return in 1914. His return is yet future.
Then I ask you to show me 1 prophecy that the wt said that came true and you cannot do it but yet their are hundreds maybe 1000's that they uttered that did not come true? Ins' that in itself enough proof over 135 years that the WT is a false religion r at the very least they just don't know what the hell they are talking about? I only asked you for 1 prophesy the WT was 100% accurate with beyond proof.
I will make a gentlemen's bet with you on this website: Here is my bet. For every accurate prediction the WT said that came true or prediction from the bible I will show you 100 times they were inaccurate.
So if you show me 1 beyond dispute or 2 I will show you 100-200 where they prophesied falsely or made outstandingly inaccurate unscriptural errors. Those are great odds. 100-1! You could win the lottery with those odds. Is that a deal Mike?
Ms. Holy, I do not mean this in a disrespectful way. But after reading your comments along with other comments you have made on this site. I believe one of your biggest problem is your inability to understand the English language, its contents or meaning of word structure.
1) My point in your first paragraph was made by you. I will try to make this simple for you. let’s say there 10,000 Christians being persecuted and 10, 000 JW’s being persecuted. 2,000 Christians are Catholic, 2,000 Pentecostals, 2,000 Baptist, 2,000 Protestant, 2,000 Non-denominational Christians. It is obvious that they are not being persecuted for their biblical beliefs, because their all have different beliefs, even who God is differs among them. No where will find a Pentecostal being persecuted because they are Pentecostal, or a library full of bad books about them, or thousands of websites devoted just to them. But when it comes to JW’s, it is all about the JW’s their beliefs, their changes, their political stands, how wrong we are, there is even a website that keeps track of when the governing body farts or runs away.
2) The gap comment was made in reference to Randy’s comment. But the point being if the gaps that are in the JW’s beliefs to much for you. How do you handle the gaps in your new belief.
3) the comments on the 29Ce was an illustration to show a more updated version of the Lazarus parable. Where the rich man said “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.” the point is if someone showed a prophecy to you. You would not believe it. The same as when I should them the 29ce chronology. They took only what they wanted.
4) So you know your line one statement is not true. JW’s where not the first to figure out 1914. a catholic clergy figured it first, published a paper on it that was hidden by the high officials of the church. It was not until the New York Times pointed out after 1914 that chronology pointed to world war 1. Than that paper strangely appeared. But the clergy was first.
5) You are an angry person, your hate for the JW’s belief’s will always obscure your vision. and I am truly sorry for any hurt caused to you. I have been doing this along time and I know that your heart left before the pain arrived.
Thank you for your response. Mike
@ MIke. Mike I do understand the English language quite well but I don’t understand how you cannot show me 1 time when the WT or JW’s were accurate in any of their predictions? I only asked you for one. You and I know they have made 100’s of end time prophecies or predictions and none have come true. They have also been SO WRONG on SO MANY other things like organ transplants, vaccines, Shunning, the 2 witness rule, Hiding over 1000 molestation cases in Australia alone, Who the King of the North is, Gog of magog etc, I could go on and on but I think you see the point. As far as your comments about 1914 I was the one who pointed out to you that they got it from other religions. Russell did not arrive at that Idea by himself and they were wrong on that also. We all know they are wrong so we cannot defend the indefensible.
I have no Gap in my belief Mike I just accept the fact that we ( humans ) do not have all the answers and I do not need to know everything anyway about God and the bible. If I read the bible and conclude different from the WT that is fine. I don’t have to be right bc I am NOT A JW anymore. JW”s cannot accept the fact that they have been so wrong and it bother them to think they may be wrong. I am not worried about it anymore. This is called freedom. The WT does not allow you to have that freedom bc you are under extreme ORDERS to believe everything they say and questioning is not allowed. Same as Scientology.
Your re quite mistaken when you say I am angry? Why bc I am no longer a JW? I am SO HAPPY i am not. However at my home tonight there were about 50 JW’s from a former cong I attended that I opened my house to so they could celebrate a long term anniversary of a JW friend of mine. My home iset up for gatherings and they asked me to use it and I said sure feel free to do it. So I was surrounded by about 50 JW’s tonight for sinner at my house. I had a good time and little religion was discussed so all went well. To say I am angry where do you even get that Idea? I know everything the wt teaches. I went to the KH the last 3 weeks in a row. My wife is a pioneer and so is my daughter. I was an elder for many years and an speaker at assemblies and sponsored JW refugees at my house from war torn countries for free and many months living with me Mike. I know all about the gentile times and what Russell taught and how Rutherford changed it. I consider myself an EXPERT in JW teachings and History. I would spend hours upon hours studying the history and anything the WT wrote.So I am Angry? No way Mike. Awakened? yes.
Hi Mike,
Thanks. I enjoyed reading your response. When I mentioned immoral desires, I was referencing your comment where you said, “because I had other desires, immoral desires.” Based on your clarification, you’re pointing out while immoral desires may have been an issue for you, that you were not trying to imply that relates to all former members. Thanks, I appreciate that.
I self-identify as an atheist, although several years after leaving the faith I joined a local Unitarian Universalist group. They are one of the few religions that accept atheists.
Logical fallacies like either/or reasoning can easily cloud our thinking. If I am recalling the Awake! article correctly, it highlighted the either/or suggestion of “you must accept blood or you will die” when in fact there may be other options besides those two.
Is, ‘No god, No bible, No morals. “Thou shall not steal” comes from the Bible not from Einstein’, a logical either/or fallacy? Well, I think so, but you may not see it that way. Nonetheless, this caused me to look up a few things on Wikipedia, which you may find interesting.
Exodus 20:15 says “You must not steal.” I did not know until just now, but some Jewish scholars feel the word “steal” may actually refer specifically to stealing another human and thus this verse should be translated as “You must not kidnap.”
First off, I can assure you, that even though I am an atheist, I believe stealing is morally wrong and teach such to my children. Thus any assumption that belief in God is required to see that stealing is wrong is false. At a minimum, there is at least one atheist (me) who believes stealing is morally wrong.
The question though is laws against stealing unique to the Bible? Wikipedia has a list of ancient law codes. Of the oldest (2360 BCE) it says: “Urukagina’s code has been widely hailed as the first recorded example of government reform, seeking to achieve a higher level of freedom and equality. It limited the power of the priesthood and large property owners, and took measures against usury, burdensome controls, hunger, **theft**, murder, and seizure (of people’s property and persons);”
I appreciate your reference to Albert Einstein is in passing and just to make a contrast. However, a few years ago I read “Einstein: His Life and Universe” by Walter Isaacson. I really enjoyed it!
re: How do you handle the gaps that are now in your belief?
Hopefully with great humility! Like you no doubt, I want to accept what is true and reject what is false, even if accepting the truth may be painful.
Your experience with 70-weeks-of-years leading to 29 CE vs gentile-times 2520 leading to 1914 CE I believe speaks to what comforts and confirms vs not. For Christians who believe Jesus was the Messiah seeing how Biblical numerology confirms their beliefs they’ll enjoy. In contrast something that confirms the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, with whom, they likely disagree, won’t be well received.
How one feels about such evidence and the confidence they have it in involves a lot of factors. You no doubt are aware that while Watchtower sources say Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE, non-JW experts say it was 587 BCE. Rather than jump into that argument, let me share this.
Sometimes I spent a fair amount of the meeting in the library with one of my girls who was making a fuss. I would sometimes use this time to read through the oldest Watchtower’s we had on hand. I found it fascinating to see that in Russel’s day, 1914 was computed not just from the 2520 value, but also established via key measurements in the Pyramids.
Kind regards,
-Randy
Randy, my comments where meant to be purely illustrative. The comments are not logical fallacies. I studied fallacies in college, had to write many papers on fallacies. A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning, an incorrect argument in logic, statements that might sound reasonable or true but are actually flawed or dishonest.
My statement on morals (As we know them)being biblical is a fact. I will give you an example. My son (The pioneer) is going to culinary school. Yesterday we where watching a cooking show, when there where talking about some ingredients, that my son was relating to but my wife & me had no clue what they where talking about, never heard of them. Why? because my son had been subjected to the topic and my wife and me had not. If atheism is correct, and there is no god, than no one would have ever been subjected to the moral standards we have today. Like my wife and me with food ingredients. Why? Because it is through the bible how we are subjected to those morals. For anyone to attempt to state what people would act/think like if there never was a god would be the true fallacy.
My comments on the 1914 was not to show it true or not. (Oh my it just occurred to me, I am referring to Holy as a women. Mr. Holy I am truly sorry about that. I just went back to reread your statement than I realized you said “When I was an elder & gentleman’s bet and said Ms. Holy is Mr. Holy again I am truly sorry.) It was simply to show that when people do not want to know, it does not matter what you show them. Whether the date is wrong or right the chronology is the same.
However just like I stated to Mr. Holy the Clergy got it first. Their names where E.B. Elliot and Christopher Bowen, British clergyman. However, in 1823 John Brown calculated the seven times to be 2,520 yrs. In 1870 Joseph Seiss published a paper calculating 1914 as a significant date in the bible. all this happen before the bible student’s claim of 1914.
Thank you for your respectful response. Mike
@Mike. Hi Mike. No problem thinking I was a woman. Lol! You have a nice way of writing and this is not an argument, Like we are saying if you are happy being a JW than so be it but the point still is there are
so may MAJOR errors the JW’s have made and continue to make they cannot be the true religion if you feel that the true religion must be accurate in its doctrine. When I was a BIG JW for over 22 years it very important for me to have correct doctrine. I would do tons of research and compare other religious teachings with the WT teaching. I realized the entire 1914 things was incorrect and basically a hoax or a lie.The JW’s had the wrong teachings on the 2nd coming of Christ and also the wrong teachings on Blood transfusions and vaccines, organ transplant, SEX in marriage, what was considered adultery ( sex with an animal or homosexual sex was not adultery according to the WT! ) Amazing they could be so wrong on such simple matters. I could not take it any longer and my conscience would not allow me to preach this nonsense anymore. Sorry Mike, No disrespect yo you and your belief but it just cannot be true.
I think even most JW’s these days no 1914 is not true. It cannot be true bcc enough time has passed to show it wrong and the generation did pass away and Jesus was not enthroned as
Here is the information I found from what I believe to be neutral sites on the beginning dates to 1914. I attempted to stay away from pro & anti JW material because of the possibility of biasness.
I was a bit surprise on the part about the lunar eclipses. I thought it would be simple to determine whether these eclipsed happen or not without bias. That proved difficult most sites are bias in one way or another. My goal is to attempt to remain neutral. From what I can tell, the anti JW sites, give many reasons as to why the date is wrong by comparing what they say are other lunar eclipses that make the date different, though many of these sites very in their reasoning, they seem to agree that the two lunar’s mention by the JW did happened.
Anyway Mr. Holy, here is my attempt to give neutral proof on a prophecy. Take it as you wish. After I come back from the Kingdom Hall (we are at 1 now), I will try to give another possibility to all the confusion you may or may not have considered.
On 12 October 539BCE Cyrus, “without spilling a drop of blood”, annexed the Chaldaean empire of Babylonia – and on October 29 he entered Babylon, arrested Nabonidus and assumed the title of “King of Babylon, King of Sumer and Akkad, King of the four corners of the world”
The Cyrus cylinder was discovered in 1878CE at the site of Babylon. It is inscribed in Akkadian cuneiform. Now housed in the British Museum, it includes a detailed account by Cyrus of his conquest of Babylon in 539BCE and his subsequent humane treatment of his conquered subjects. It has been hailed as the world’s first declaration of human rights
Cyrus the Great is famed as a triumphant conqueror, a superb warrior, and the founder of the greatest empire the world has ever seen. However, with the Cyrus Cylinder and a range of Jewish texts, plus extensive writings by Xenophon, Cyrus is generally more admired as a liberator than a conqueror. Cyrus the Great was mentioned twenty-two times in the Old Testament, where he is unconditionally praised. This followed his active liberation of the Jews from Babylon in 539BCE and his support as more than 40,000 Jews then chose to return to their homeland. Cyrus then funded the subsequent rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. Cyrus was also eulogized by many other writers and his actual or legendary exploits were used as moral instruction or as a source of inspiration for political philosophies http://www.cyrusthegreat.net/
First of all the “Babylonian Chronicles” tell us the exact date which Babylon fell. October 13, 539 B.C. http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/belshazzar_darius_mede.htm
The exact dates of the Lydian conquest are unknown, but it must have taken place between Cyrus’s overthrow of the Median kingdom (550 BC) and his conquest of Babylon (539 BC). On October 29, Cyrus himself entered the city of Babylon and detained Nabonidus. Cuneiform evidence from Babylon proves that Cyrus died around December 530 BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great
The Battle of Opis, fought in September 539 BC, was a major engagement between the armies of Persia under Cyrus the Great and the Neo-Babylonian Empire under Nabonidus during the Persian invasion of Mesopotamia. The main contemporary source of information on Cyrus’s Mesopotamian campaign of 539 BC is the Nabonidus Chronicle, one of a series of clay tablets collectively known as the Babylonian Chronicles that record the history of ancient Babylonia. Some additional detail is provided by one of the few documents to have survived from Cyrus’s lifetime, the Cyrus Cylinder. Although much of the Nabonidus Chronicle is fragmentary, the section relating to the last year of Nabonidus’s reign – 539 BC – is mostly intact. The Nabonidus Chronicle records that the battle took place in the month of Tashritu (27 September-27 October) “at Opis on the [bank of the] Tigris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Opis
Nabonidus, sensing no doubt that Cyrus’ success spelled severe danger for his own empire, returned to Babylon in the spring of 539 b.c. and began to bring into the city the statues of other Babylonian city-gods in order to afford greater protection to Babylon. In early October Cyrus defeated a Babylonian force at Opis on the Tigris, and on Oct. 10 Sippar fell without a battle. Nabonidus hastily left Babylon. Cyrus himself entered the city on Oct. 29, and presented himself to the citizens as its liberator. http://www2.gracenotes.info/topics/cyrus-the-great.html
In October 539 BC, it was clear nothing would stop the great Persian king and his army. Several smaller cities fell with barely any resistance, and by October 12, Cyrus’ troops entered Babylon almost unopposed. http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/323/Cyrus.htm
In October 539 BCE, the Persian king Cyrus took Babylon, http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/babylon07.html
The two Lunar Eclipses;
Traditionally, these two lunar eclipses are identified with the lunar eclipses that were visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 BC and on January 10, 522 BC (Oppolzer’s Canon of Eclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335) Thus, this tablet establishes the 7th year of Cambyses II as beginning in the spring of 523 BC, so his first year was 529 BC. I scanned all lunar eclipses in that period (1000-0 BC) with a software (StarCal, this software calculates and displays lunar eclipses. See http://www.physics.sfasu.edu/astro/software.html for astronomical software), and I only found two eclipses that matched exactly with that record: 16-17 July 523 BC (beginning at 10:30 a.m.) for the first eclipse (partial, with upper half disc in darkness) and 9-10 January 522 BC (beginning at 3:15 a.m.) for the second one (total), consequently traditional date for Cambyses II (529-522 BC) is right. According to this, Cambyses II took Egypt in his Year 5, which would be 525 BC, ending the 26th Dynasty (Saitic) and beginning the 27th Dynasty (Persian). On other hand, the reign of Cyrus II, Cambyses II’s father, is dated in 539-529 BC. As a result, Babylon fall, dated in Year 1 of Cyrus, took place in 539 BC. http://www.domainofman.com/cgi-bin/bbs62x/webbbs_config.pl?md=read;id=965
The text BM 33066 (78-11-7, 4 = Strm. Kambys. 400 = LBAT 1477) mentions two lunar eclipses (on 16 July 523 BC & 10 January 522 BC) that occurred during the 7th year of the Persian king Cambyses. The first lunar eclipse is also mentioned in Ptolemy’s Almagest (book V, chapter 14). In the 7th year of Cambyses (225th year from Nabonassar, 17/18 Phamenoth of the Egyptian calendar = 16/17 July 523 BC), the Moon was eclipsed half its diameter from the north at one hour before midnight in Babylon (Almagest V 14). http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/babylon/babybibl_sunmoon.htm
These are identified with lunar eclipses visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E., and on January 10, 522 B.C.E., thus pointing to the spring of 523 B.C.E. as the beginning of Cambyses’ seventh year. https://et.glosbe.com/en/et/lunar%20year
This is a very long eclipse calendar. However, the two lunar dates are also there.
http://www.academia.edu/2402713/Dating_the_Fall_of_Babylon_and_Ur
It is interesting how someone asked for proof. mentions 2-3 times I give no proof. I finally give neutral proof on just one thing and no answer for days. I guess that is just how it works.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Just out of interest, which aspect of prophecy are you addressing with this study? Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but the conclusion seems to be that Babylon fell in 539BCE. If this relates to the 1914 date, how in your view does the fall of Babylon in 539 establish it? Thanks
Hi Mike the year the JWs give for the fall of Babylon is totally different from the year the Jewish Nation report that they were released from their oppression.
Why is that?
Shouldn’t the people that were deported know when they were released.
The bible expressly condones and promotes slavery, and its justice calls for the woman of the rapist to marry him and become his property. Of the over 600 Mosaic Laws, god needed to prevent humans from wearing “mixed fibers” and gathering firewood one day a week–but nowhere is the rape of children prohibited,
The Bible is a book written by men (who claim it is from God) for men, a misogynistic Bronze Age book of tribal justice. Are there some points of great wisdom and beautiful passages? Yes–as in all literature from around the world across the millennia
.
Hi Mike,
I did not have enough time to respond to your comments about persecution. You said:
“But only JW’s are persecuted because we are JW’s and what we believe. case and point this website.”
In 2008, just after leaving the faith in 2007 I made a trip to Berlin with my second oldest daughter. We visited Sachsenhausen concentration camp. The tour guide mentioned that the first person hung on the gallows there was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Even though I am an Ex-JW I seek to take nothing away from such a courageous stand. I’ve read two first-hand accounts of Witnesses who lived through the Nazi era. Facing the Lion by Simone Arnold and Crucible of Terror by her husband Max Liebster. Very worthwhile sobering reads!
The non-JW experience I also just recently read was Night by Eliezer “Elie” Wiesel.
And there are certainly other accounts one could relate. How Jehovah’s Witnesses faced the flag salute issue in the USA is an example. I often point out that during the WWII era while Germany banned Jehovah’s Witnesses, so did my home country, Canada.
What though constitutes persecution? If this web-site is a form of persecution because one can find critical comments about the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses here? If so, then is jw.org a form of persecution against other religions when it is critical? Is it just the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses that create issues? Or do actions like shunning, assuming control and influence over highly private and personal aspects of ones life like medical decisions or sexual intimacy, the problem?
And how can one avoid the trap of persecution complex? This is defined by the Oxford Living Dictionary as: “An irrational and obsessive feeling or fear that one is the object of collective hostility or ill-treatment on the part of others.”
You see similar comments between LDS and Ex-LDS. For example this post at exmormon.org:
‘Anytime an article that doesn’t glowingly praise the LDS Inc., Mormons cry persecution. They argue that they are the “only” church that gets “attacked” and “persecuted” and whine that other churches don’t get “picked on” too.’
The problem of course is Jehovah’s Witnesses have been subject to real persecution and that should not be ignored. Likewise the Mormons. And certainly it is painful to see Christians and Muslims being killed over religious/political differences — even if we personally don’t believe the dogma of their religious faith. And finally, let us never forget the millions of Jews persecuted by Nazi regime!
Holy Connoli spoke about perspective and I think that is a great way to look at problem. There are 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world. Even if this website contained unfair criticism of the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it would be pretty small by comparison. Lloyd has reported that only a few thousand have filled in the survey. And thus, it is generally true that real persecution follows a power dynamic wherein the large and powerful oppress the small and weak.
In contrast to Jehovah’s Witnesses there are 16 million Catholics in the state of California alone. And yet, I’ve had some Catholic friends suggest the some of the rules of the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), such as reduced cost for birth control, is persecution against the Church.
I wasn’t a UU too long before I heard of James Reeb, a UU minister killed in Selma in 1965 during a civil rights march.
Rather than think in terms of persecution I have come to appreciate the expressed views of Ex-JWs come from a myriad of places — much of it highly personal. Some have had a pretty awful experience. Some have felt deeply betrayed believing things they discovered were not true. Thus, some anger and frustration is to be expected. And certainly not all Ex-JWs hold the same views or concerns. The veracity of the theory of evolution was important to me, but to my wife, it was of little concern at all. Her concerns with the faith were different than mine.
Kind regards,
-Randy
Mr. Randy I read this after I wrote my statement. However, I did respond to Mr. Holy on the subject. Just letting you know I did read it.
Thank you Mike
Hi Mike,
Your comments about your son, pioneering and going to culinary school, I generally agree with. That is, our beliefs and knowledge are shaped by our experience. You’ll also notice that in general what religion a person believes is true, is a function of where they live and who their parents are — because of course we initially inherit our experience.
Belief in God is often wrapped up in “origin of” questions. In this case, origin of morals. The other common one atheists, such as myself, encounter is origin of life and the related question origin of species.
You appear to believe origin of morals depends the existence of God. Direct evidence of a moral view on theft is stated in the Bible. That’s fine. My view would be that the origin of morals within humans has an evolutionary basis. Our brains where such morals live has evolved over time and that process favors what is more successful than not. In humans, being social cooperators has contributed to our success and this has lead to the development of morals.
One might claim that the Bible had the advantage of age. It has been around for a long time and as soon as “You should not steal” appeared all other repeats of this stem from the Bible. Thus, locating older non-Biblical sources for similar views helps establish the Bible is not unique. While it might be tempting to view atheism as the new kid on the block (and certainly in regards to wider acceptance that appears to be true), the Bible itself shows at least some ancient people did not believe in Jehovah — even though it labels such ones as “foolish” (Psalms 14:1). Psalms 14 is also repeated as Psalms 53.
Besides looking at oldest written sources, we can also gain insight by studying mammals closely related to humans. Do such animals display sense of morals? Do they have feelings about theft? This of course requires some subjective analysis and even if such “monkey morals” exist, a theist may simply argue it was placed there by God. However, we can be certain, it is not because such animals or their ancestors read the Bible.
In regards to 29CE vs 1914CE my point is our acceptance or not of a line of reasoning depends on what we may already believe. If I shared evidence with you about history of ancient Americas you may readily accept evidence of experts without much resistance. However a Latter-day Saint may reject such, because it stands in conflict with their religions views stemming from the Book of Mormon. I don’t think this is really all that bad. We make commitments to various ideas and that involves energy. Easily tossing aside our prior beliefs would lead to bouncing around all over the place (James 1:6).
Rather I think it is good to be open minded and on-board evidence that challenges our current beliefs, but unless something demands we must make an immediate decision, it is good to give ourselves time to mull it over.
Kind regards,
-Randy
Hi Mike,
2520 – 1914 = 606. Accounting for no zero year, puts one at 607 BCE. That’s great and all, but if Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, then the calculation doesn’t work. To be honest, this issue hasn’t been an area of interest to me as it has been to others. I simply accept that if experts could pin point the destruction of Babylon in 539 BCE, I see no reason why they would suddenly fail pinning down a related event that happened 48 years earlier, especially when they are working from the same set of artifacts.
One of the Wikipedia editors of JW material is Jefro77. He has often commented on issues about these dates and has some material on the web that provides a record of his answers. He argues that 539 BCE (Babylon destruction) and 587 BCE (Jerusalem destruction) not only fit the available archaeological evidence but also the most straightforward reading of the Bible verses around these events.
To me the bigger question is can Biblical numerology be used to predict future events? So far the answer appears to be, no. When Harold Camping of “Family Radio” predicted May 21, 2011 as the end-of-the-world date you can bet the basic math he applied worked, but that didn’t give his analysis any real predictive value. Likewise when Russel used the 2520 value and Pyramid measures to make predictions about 1914 nothing that he said would happen actually happened. Many modern JWs assume he predicted WWI, but as far as I know, he said nothing like that. And while he pointed to October, WWI began on July 28th.
There are many other examples of predictive value lacking. Reasoning from the Scriptures contained analysis of earthquake frequency since 1914. This, it pointed as evidence the end was near. Now some people say the analysis is flawed and earthquake frequency has not increased. If though we set that aside it is still important to ask if the end was actually near? I believe that book was published in 1989, so at a minimum the end no more near than 28 years.
Kind regards,
-Randy
Mr. Randy
I do understand the confusion. (it is very difficult to explain the row Satan plays in all of this). I am a JW who researches everything for truth. Opposers do not scare me, I feel very comfortable around them. When I started studying with the JW’s I worked at Ford right next to a Baptist Minister. One day the line went down and he came up to me asking me what I was reading. I said the bible. I told him I was studying with the JW’s. He asked if I knew why at 1 Ti 3:16 his bible says “god was manifested in the flesh” and our bible says “He who was” I told him I did not know, I am new with the bible so I went to one of my elders he also worked at ford and asked him. I told him who asked me that his name was Dan. he said the best think for me to do is go to the library and look for yourself, Dan will not except JW material. So started my long journey dealing with one religion after another going to the library researching this and researching that. I got pretty good at it. I got to the point that I realized what it meant to dig for truth, sometimes the answer was not in surface you really have to dig for it.
The material I posted up to Mr. Holy shows from all kinds of neutral sites that (If I use JW sites no good because they are JW’s so the same is true for anti-JW sites)1) Cyrus did die on 530 bce. 2) he was king of Babylon for 9 years. 530+9+539 3) The cuneiform does say he proclaimed himself king of Babylon when he entered in 539 bce 4) The battle of opis which is this battle was fought 9/539 bce. 5) as I stated above. Though there are anti-JW websites that give different lunar. They all have the two eclipse’s date. And the neutral sites also show the dates. So at the least the JW calculation is possible. Pointing to the spring of 523 B.C.E. as the beginning of Cambyses’ seventh year. That would make his first regnal year 529 B.C.E. So Cyrus’ last year would have been 530 B.C.E., making 539 B.C.E. his first year of ruling Babylon. At Ezra 1:1, reference is made to “the first year of Cyrus,” not “the year Cyrus became king” (or accession year), so he was speaking of the first regnal year of Cyrus. (An accession year is the year in which the king begins to reign. A regnal year is the official year of a reign dating from the kings accession) Accession 539/538, Year 1 538/537, Year 2 537/536, 537+70+607.
About Russell and 1914 he never said nothing about world war 1. The bible students thought the world would end and they will receive their heavenly reward. Boy where they wrong! But as mention above other people saw the significance of that date. It was two things that them to understand what that date meant. 1) cannot remember, but sometime after that, some archeological business papers where found in the geek writing that should that Parousia did not mean coming, but presence. 2) the new times report on world war 1. Going back to the scriptures they realized Oct 1914 was when Jesus stated to reign in the heavens. The signs where for his presence not coming. (A little fact I just looked up.) United States alone has had:
(M1.5 or greater)
40 earthquakes in the past 24 hours
329 earthquakes in the past 7 days
1,984 earthquakes in the past 30 days
20,766 earthquakes in the past 365 days
I do not know, sounds like a lot. Jesus never said destructive earthquakes. So you know the US entered WW1 4/6/1917,
Hope this helps. Mike
If you use Watchtower only sources, counting backwards from the last monarch of Babylon, one can easily determine that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE.
REIGN OF KINGS STARTING FROM 539 BCE
Nabonidus 556 BCE – 539 BCE -last monarch of Babylonian Empire ( Insight Book Volume -1 p 457-458) (Aid to Bible Understanding, Nabonidus p 1195)
Labashi-Marduk 556 BCE reigned for 9 months, succeeded Neriglissar) (Watchtower 1965 1 Jan p29)( Babylon the Great Has Fallen, p184)
Neriglissar 560 – 556 BCE -reigned 4 years, murdered Evil-Merodach (Watchtower 1965 1 Jan p29)( Babylon the Great Has Fallen, p 184)
Evil-merodach 562 – 560 -reigned 2 years, succeeded Nebuchadnezzar (Watchtower 1965 1 Jan p29) (Babylon the Great Has Fallen, God’s Kingdom Rules page 184)
Nebuchadnezzar 605-562 -reigned 43 years (Daniels Prophecy Chapter 4 para 9) (Watchtower 2000, 15th May p 12 para 17)( Insight Book,Volume 2 p 480)
Jerusalem ‘s walls were breached in Nebuchadnezzar ‘s 18th year of ruling (Insight book volume 2, page 481)Jerusalem was completely destroyed by 19th year.
So Nebuchadnezzar started reigning in 605 -18 ( counting 18 years later)=
587/586 BCE JERUSALEM DESTROYED, NOT 607 BCE
70 YEARS OF DESOLATION
Jerusalem destroyed in 586 BCE + 70 years =516 BCE
What happened in 516 BCE?
INSIGHT BOOK, PAGE 463 states that Darius’ 6th year began 12 April, 516 BCE
The foundations of Jerusalem were laid but the work was halted before the final completion of the temple IN THE 6TH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF DARIUS. (EZRA 6: 14-16). That was when the 70 years of desolation was finished.
OR
70 YEARS OF EXILE
Nebuchadnezzar took Israel into exile in 605 BCE + 70 Years = 535 BCE
The exiled Jews started their return to Babylon which began in 538 BCE. The large group consisted of children and animals. It would have taken 2-3 years for the large group to return in full which brings us to 535 BCE
or
70 YEARS NATIONS WOULD HAVE TO SERVE FOR BABYLON
Jeremiah prophesied the whole country would become a wasteland and nations would serve King of Babylon 70 years. (Jeremiah 25: 1,2 11)
Babylon’s rule lasted 70 years, from 609 BC when the last Assyrian king, Ashur-uballit II, was defeated in Harran, until 539 BC when the Medo-Persians conquered Babylon.
Hi Mike,
“I am a JW who researches everything for truth. Opposers do not scare me, I feel very comfortable around them.”
That’s the key! As the saying goes, keep an open mind, just don’t let your brains fall out. A friend of mine at work, knowing that I’m an atheist, gave me the book Atheist Delusions. While the book did not change my views on the existence of God, it nonetheless gave me a deeper insight into how belief in God works for many folks along with the flaws believers see in some of reasoning of famous atheists like Richard Dawkins.
I also think it is important to separate belief from action. We may have certain views about end-of-days prophesies, but how do we translate such in love of neighbor and looking after orphans and widows in their tribulation, etc?
Kind regards,
-Randy
mike. Mike you did not give ANY proof at all on any WT prophecies. You scuttled around the subject and went into some LONG…VERY LONG explanations that made little or no sense. I asked you to show me a direct prediction or prophecy that the WT foretold in the last 135 years that was accurate beyond doubt and you did not do it. Just like the many others I have asked to do the same. The reason you could not do it is BECASUE there are none. However they have predicted hundreds of things that did not come true. That is why I gave you 100-1 odds. Besides being inaccurate on every prediction they ever made they are also WHACKED out on some of their “TEACHINGS” such as no vaccines, No organ transplants, no blood transfusions, Jehovah lives on his own planet,No beards, no playing sports on a high school team, Jesus had no beard, Jesus 2nd coming was 1914, ( but nobody saw him ? ) Bathing in the direct sun is good for you, ( cancer anyone ? ) Shunning family members forever if they leave the WT, Gog of Magog,King of the North? They still don’t know, and on ad on. These are just a few.Go to JWfacts.com
Mike, your so called “Neutral” prophecies don’t make sense as well. I only asked you for a simple Concreter prophecy the WT taught that without doubt came true. You cannot provide it. No offense, it is just the way it is.
Holy C
You see, the thing about Mike is… well he is neither a loyal Witness nor is he an awakened individual. He is stuck in no-man’s land. Mike is like several other JWs we know who attempt to post comments on this site then they are STRICTLY forbidden from doing so by the organization and his local elders. My reminder to Mike is that if the organization does not need you or want you on any site construed as “apostate”. If he were to print out all of his comments here and elsewhere, and show them to his elders, he would find himself disciplined rather harshly, and warned never to visit “apostate” sites – let alone comment on them.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they have the truth, and as such they visit no other religious-oriented site aside from JW.org. That is the final word from the organization – and for anyone to break this is disloyalty to Jehovah. Some persons do this to count time- but most often they simply cant resist the urge to argue with “opposers.” This is a fatal flaw, and according to JW theology, it could well cost them their life. So – as a Witness (if he is as he proclaims) – he is guilty of foolishness, and once again – he is not permitted by the organization to comment or argue on websites like ours or others.
By disobeying the organization, such persons are guilty of “independent thinking”. The JW organization takes the position that they will not publicly refute any “apostate” claims, and of course we know the reason for this strategy. Poor Mike- he needs to have a talk with his elders, study his Watchtower, read the New World translation, and engage in field service, and most of all, meet with his elders to discuss his weakness for trolling internet sites. I am certain they will have a few scriptures ready for him…
I have always been an independent thinker. I am not a JW because someone brained wash me. I am one because I choose to be. After studying other religions I found this one to be the truth. this website continues to show me that The JW’s are the truth, by what they say. No one is going to disfellowshipped me because I am on this site. They just warn me about it contents and the spiritual harm it could cause. But the elders know me and my thinking. You people do not bother me or change my thinking the same I do not change yours.
Mike.
You are funny. The bible made it clear no one would see him. But by the signs they will know he is now sitting on Jehovah’s throne.
How about this prophecy that you and this website are helping to fulfilling. Now I know you see this one with your own eyes.
Matthew 5:11 “Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake.
12 Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you.
Matthew13: 13 That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.
Mark 13:9 As for you, look out for yourselves. People will hand you over to local courts, and you will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them. 10 Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first. 13 you will be hated by all people on account of my name. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.
And just think about it. Whether you believe it or not. You yourself are a witness to the good news being preached upon the whole inhabited earth. You do not have to agree, but you cannot deny that we cover the whole earth, the way Jesus said his followers will.
Mike
Mike, are you for real? Rev. 1:7 says that every eye WILL SEE HIM.
@Caroline. Matt 24:29 also says…then they will SEE the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and Great Glory… Oh I forgot despite the many, many scriptures that speak of his visible or literal return the WT claims it is only with the “EYE OF UNDERSTANDING”
that people “SEE” him. We can debate the interpretation all we want but one thing we know for sure is that his Return was not in 1914 and was not inviable at that time.
@Mike. There you go again Mike. I asked you to show me a prophecy the WT has predict ted that has come true beyond a doubt. All you did was quote some vague scriptures that have nothing to do with the WT predictions. Also Jesus was talking to he Literal Jews in the scriptures you quote.
As he spoke about being delivered to the synagogues etc. So instead of dancing around my question can you JUST show me 1 direct unquestionable prediction the WT has made in 135 years that has come true and their is physical or literal fulfillment of it PLEASE MIKE!
Your comment about the good news being preached everywhere in the earth by JW’s is simply not true. How many JW’s are there in the Muslim World? How many
are in China compared to the population? How may JW’s are there in India the 2nd most populated nation in the world? I guarantee you can go to any of those countries in the main square in town and ask 100 people who you see where are JW’s and nobody would know what you are talking about or who they are or ever heard of them.
The other thing is this the JW’s are not the fastest growing Christian religion in the world by any means. In fact the fastest growing Christian denomination is the Pentecostal religion so apparently their message is getting much more positive response than the message of Religious control that the WT preaches about.
On a more important note is the FACT that the “KINGDOM” he JW’s preach about is NOT the Kingdom that the bible teaches
bc the JW’s teach it came in 1914 and would be here before that generation passed away? Well, I think we can all agree that the WT is SO WRONG about
that. Also that the 2nd coming of Jesus occurred in 1914 is a hoax that even the WT must realize by now. It is based on a fallacy of 2520 years from 607 BCE that 99.9% historians and religious scholars dismiss as not true.
For decades the WT taught that the separating work began in 1914 and humans were being separated as sheep and goats until Armageddon arrived. A few years back the WT did the flip flop again and changed it to began after Jesus arrives again another flip flop teaching on the 2nd coming of Christ. It is a convoluted teaching t say the least. So the Kingdom the JW’s preach about is not he Kingdom that the bible teaches bc it did not come in 1914 as history now testifies. So MIKE, PLEASE SHOW me 1 direct undeniable proof of a prediction/prophecy the WT has made in 135 years that is undeniably accurate and that the literal fulfillment shows us. If you cannot do it Mike that is ok you can just admit that the WT has none.
I don’t know why you all are expending time and energy explaining to Mike…
His limited education evidenced by his sentence construction and glaring spelling errors mean that his ability to reason and make logical deductions is virtually impossible. Allow him be.
John Redwood
Very good point John. One of the reasons I Finally awakened was bc of the failed prophecies of the WT. Some people don’t care about that they say ( including my wife ) When I became a JW as a young adult it was very important to be accurate in doctrine and prophecy to me. After years of examination I had to admit the WT was wrong and had no clue what they were saying or doing. They just threw so much “SCHMIDT” against the wall and hoped some of it would stick! Well, nothing has stuck. If we use the WT claim that NO ONE should be afraid to examine their beliefs and their religion to see if it is true or not. That is what I finally did. I followed their advice and came to the conclusion that they were very wrong on almost everything they ever taught. It caused me much pain at the time but I could no longer continue to promote a convoluted teaching that has proved false.
Our friend Mike on JW Survey likes to debate things and try to prove his Religion is true but dances around direct questions. He has been cordial and I have tried to be the same but he cannot find 1 prophecy sent out by the WT that has been true in 135 years. Even his statment that ONLY JW’s are persecuted for their beliefs is ludicrous bc there are 100’s of thousand of Christians in the middle East and even Russia that are being persecuted and killed for being Christians but he explains it away that that does not count in the same way JW’s are being persecuted. just doesn’t make sense. I think Mike is waking up in his own way and may be struggling with the reality of the JW’s not being true.
Another thing John is the JW’s think the whole world is watching them and that they are much more important than they really are.
I am an independent thinker. I am a JW because I want to be, not because someone brain wash me. So you know my elders know I go to these sites. They are not going to disfellowship me. They just warn me of the possible spiritual harm it could do. You people do not bother me, you people make me spiritually stronger. When I read what you people say and I compare it to the bible, I clearly see all the bible truth that the bible has and why the JW’s are right. You see! it was not the JW’s that convinced me of their truth, it was religion and people like you that convinced me. You see but yet you see nothing. You keep looking at the trees and that prevents you from seeing the forest.
Mike
@MIKE. So your Elders know you visit these sites? I have a hard time believing that Mike. So you see all the truth the bible teaches and proves to you the JW’s are right? Well, if you teach what the WT taught 5-10 years ago you would be an apostate now and possibly DF’d for it.
How do you feel about the “TRUTH” continually changing MIKE and doctrines always changing? Does that bother you since you say you are an Independent thinker. Do you agree with everything the WT says and teaches? Can you verbally and vocally challenge any of their teachings that you disagree with without being punished or DF’d? Is that allowed in the WT religion?
Mike, I am also an independent thinker. I am a JW because I want to be, not because someone brain washed me. But I see that these guys have some good, logical points. There are some real problems, with real victims, in our organization. Yet, if the GB got off their hands, it would be easy to fix the faults.
Yes, our organization is not perfect. But it doesn’t need to be so horrible.
Our organization is so difficult to support in these forums because it has made so many mistakes, and continues to. And it neither apologizes nor fixes things. An organization that forgets its victims should be criticized.
@Ricardo. Honest response Ricardo. I appreciate that. The problem with Mike is he trys to defend the indefensible. He must know the things we speak of are true and he uses reasoning that is just wrong. Sure, we can all believe whatever we want but to try to say that his religion is the true one and we are False when we are pointing out facts and quoting directly from the WT itself. Personally, I just don’t know how anyone can support the WT and defend what it has taught and done and is doing. The latest intrusion of freedom is the control they try to enforce about emoji images! I remember 20 years ago When I was an Elder trying so hard to help people that we had several late meetings on how the young brothers were wearing their hair? The White brothers were counseled strongly against having any spiked haircuts..even a little bit..and the Black brothers were counseled against having a “fade”. I kept asking in those meetings.don’t we have better things to do than worry about some kids hairstyle? I said these guys are not on drugs, not in gangs, not getting girls pregnant, not stealing, not smoking etc. These are kids just growing up. I was chastised for saying in and said we don’t need to control every aspect of their lives. I t never stops w the WT.
Like Moses said, Let my people go. Take the burdens off of them. The repressive Yolk.
You’re so right, Holy C! I was an MS and a reg pioneer and I got “counselled” on taking too many vacations. I was extremely frustrated. I was doing so much for Jehovah and the elders always wanted more. So I quit pioneering. I wish that I’d have quit the whole thing then, or even better would’ve be as soon as I could!!!
It’s a complete waste of time and it makes me want to cry. All of the missed opportunities in my life.
So Mike, if you’re listening, please pay attention to the people here. We were in your position once and we are not your enemies. You are wasting your time with the JW corporation. They will only frustrate you and waste your life away.
Life won’t be perfect if you leave the WT but it’s better than sitting in there. Everyone is leaving anyways, why be the last guy? It’s like when a stock is going down, you might as well bail. You bought a loser but you don’t have to ride it to the bottom. If you can get some money out it’s better than nothing.
Wow.. congrats man!! For me you are one of the most sensible guy in this regard. There might be more like you off course. )) I like when i see ( read or hear) reasonable thinking about it. About the Russia stuff, ive watched a few elders interviews in brazil, and no one is talking about the disfellowshipping and shunning thing. Haha.. very funy. The only thing the are talking about is that they are peacefull people and so their literature and publications are!!! Which is true!!! And, about what they are saying that being persecuted just like jesus and his followers were in the past is a sigh of the last days, i think it doesnt aplly in this case… right!!? Because the reason of the persecution in jesus days and now are completely diferent.. I guess!! ))
Mike, I tell you in complete sincerity; the only reason, absolutely the only one, is that i could no longer believe the teachings of the Watchtower after being a Witness for nearly 40 years, from birth, baptized when I was 13. I have always been completely sincere about my faith in Jehovah. And for the first 30+ years of my life I could not image ever stop being a witness.
Yet, it turns out that being a Jehovah’s Witness is not following Jesus, or even worshiping Jehovah, but simple do as your told, without questioning. And that, my dear friend, is one of the signs of a cult. And the WTS shows a lot more signs of a cult.
Having said that, a statement like that is not what moved me to break with the WTS. What did was the conflict in teachings, the twisting of the Bible — of which I could give you examples printed in the WTS publications– , and the hypocrisy, scheming and even bullying of members of the Governing Body. And the list doesn’t end there.
The moment I realized that I could not have a clean conscience while remaining part of the Watchtower organization, came to me as a shock, even though it was a build up of facts, leading to that conclusion.
I made my decision and for a while I was actually depressed over it, yet there was no way I could accept what I had learned, and carry on as before in the organization. (i’m not disfellowshiped, officially I am “inactive”. At least that’s what it was called at the time. Elders had informal talks with me, twice I believe, but said not to see any reason to disfellowship me, even though I give my opinion –in friendly tone– to anyone who inquires about my situation)
It’s hard to admit that the faith you had all of your life, the effort you put in to it, emotions, work in the congregation, in the ministry, parts in the theocratic school and service meeting, your friends, your family, relatives; it’s your life; it turned out it’s all in vain. Still having to throw it all overboard is quite emotional. Yet … don’t go against your conscience. But first, listen to it! listen to what you conscience tells you. Stop defending the WTS against your gut feeling, against your better judgement.
You can dismiss this now, because that’s the impulse you get from this and similar messages, but there are gonna be moments when you will think this over. Be honest to yourself. Listen to your conscience.
Good luck, my friend. I hope you will do what is right for you and those you love.
obviously, my story is not unique. there are plenty of people who broke with the WTS with as only reason that they no longer agreed with the teachings.
@John Bleeker. John your story is similar to mine. After 22 years of being a die hard JW and following all the rules and trying my very very best to be a super JW I just could no longer believe it and I could no longer allow myself to accept anything they said as truth. I was not raised a JW so I had a background of thinking for myself.
For me DOCTRINE was Very Important. For others it may not be. I was raised Catholic and when I studied with the JW’s it was always stressed how wrong the Catholics were and they used all these different scriptures to ty to prove it. So If the Bible was the basis for the beliefs of the JW’s than they should be able to stand up to what they teach right?
I mean after many years it became obvious they were just changing things as they go whenever they felt like it. 1914, sheep and goats, blood transfusions, king of North, King of South, great tribulation, Jesus coming, separating work, shunning, overlapping generation, F&D Slave, DFshipping, armed services, College education,on and on and on! It never stops. I finally realized they don’t even know what they believe. How could I teach it to others if they are not sure themselves. Then I realized 607 BCE was a HOAX and Jerusalem was never destroyed that year which throws the entire 1914 fallacy out the in doe and a so called “INVISIBLE” second coming of Christ and the last days etc. It isn’t real my friend. God is real but not the WT teachings. So many contradictions. And don’t forget the Joining of the Wild Beast the UN.! That was icing on the cake.
@John and Holy,
Guys, I am going through those emotions at the moment: that all those years, all that effort was for nothing. My whole life is involved, all my relatives. But the shocking bullying that takes place by the elders, well that just makes me want revenge. I want to see these guys (elders) sitting in emptying halls wondering why people no wonder want to be bullied by them. I want to see them when they no longer have any power, and tell them what complete mongrels they are.
Why do JW in there latest publication in the watchtower is claiming that Jesus Christ as ruler knows the time and date of the end? ” confusing “
To Lloyd Evans,Brothers & Sisters
I know we are all adults yet I truly do understand the pain you feel.I’ve studied various times with sisters from the hall in the past,yet it was difficult for me to take the final step.I can only imagine what it must feel like being raised in the truth from childhood or became a witness at some point in your life and have to come to this conclusion.I too have been very hurt in the name of Christianity and sometimes wonder if I will ever heal completely.What I do know now is that because of my experience I have becomed very cautious of people especially when it’s in the name of God.For me the pain came from my own household.If it wasn”t for the grace of God I could have ended 10 feet under,in jail for life or on death row.I never knew what HATE was until this betrayal.I still can not conceive how anyone could have such animosity towards another human.The one thing I will not allow anyone to take away from me is my love for the truth.I will keep seeking until I find it.It breaks my heart when I hear the many stories that are shared and it seems as if some of you have lost complete faith in God.Remember that is exactly what the adversary wants.How can we allow life experiences to cause us to turn away from God or Jesus.Now more than ever is when we should seek Him.Let Him know how our heart is profoundly grieved .Above all pray
“The one thing I will not allow anyone to take away from me is my love for the truth.I will keep seeking until I find it” (Maureen)
Then you need to stop seeking it (truth) and just accept it, if you really want to do what you claim. Look up John 14:6. To find Biblical truth nothing more needs to be added to a Christian’s search. It’s just finding and then following Christ-that is the messages about him and from him. If you want to believe in God and follow him, per Biblical instructions, then follow the advice from that scripture I gave you. That’s the Biblical way. It’s as simple as that. Those who present a Christian’s search for truth as more complex than that are deceivers, from a Biblical standpoint. A possible reason for their deception is that they themselves have also been deceived.
Gal 1:8, 9 “However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declare to you as good news, let him be accursed. As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed.”
The apostles’ (including Paul’s) messages were about Jesus as the only “truth,” not a man’s or group’s interpretation of scripture. Hence one reason Jesus said the “truth’ will set you free. You’re ability to follow Christ is not bound by a man’s or an organization’s interpretation of scripture. There is nothing stopping you from following Christ right now. Hence, your to do so freedom!
Many of the people who comment here, that no longer believe in God, or that never believed in God express their contrary beliefs, not because they’ve been hurt, but because they don’t accept what you claim to be searching for.
The last sentence in my next to last paragraph should read…”Hence, your ability to do so is freedom!”
In a dilemma here and looking for advice from other parents who may have been through the same pain… I am a father with two daughters who divorced in 2004. My ex-wife received custody of both girls which I did not fight due to my own beliefs. At the time of the divorce, my ex-wife was in the process of getting back into the “truth”. The oldest daughter (now 24) chose not not follow her mother’s beliefs and the youngest (now 19) followed her mother’s beliefs. Early on in the divorce I attempted contact on multiple occasions with my youngest… she was never “available” to take my calls and never returned voice mails or messages that I left. I, at one point reached out to advice from family, friends, and even professionals as to what I should do and the collective answer was to just let her be, “she’ll come around”. Through the years there have only been a couple of occasions in which we communicated and even got together but I have not seen or heard from my daughter now in at least 5 years. To be honest, this has greatly pained me and I’m lost. I never spoke bad about the mother nor have I done anything to make this relationship even worse than it already was. I found out about a month ago that my youngest is now in a relationship in which marriage is in the near future. I want nothing more than to be part of my daughter’s life but considering the years of non-communication, did I already destroy any future with her? Looking for answers ~ Kevin
You people LIE and slander j.w. What does your Father, creator, God Almighty think of you slanderers, your just disgrunteled has-beens
I have never had a problem at the kingdom hall when I went, They are not child molesters, you people are confusing them with the Catholics. These are all lies against the J.W.’s Hey people they are not perfect yet, But if someone is accused of molestation etc. Arn”T they Disfellowshipped YES they are, I asked a brother and a couple of elders, YES that’s what happens they are kicked out! And why don’t they ever asked for money? other religions do All the time, and the stupid Pagan holidays oh you poor soul couldn’t celebrate your crappy, stupid holidays SO WHAT, do the research for xmas or Winter Pagan Solstice Day, They are the ones telling the TRUTH, do the research I did
teenadave7 welcome to you! keep on reading and informing you, doing your research as you say.
no one here says that the JW are child molesters. What is said and confirmed in countless cases around the world is that the procedure in case of child abuse is to NOT report it to the authorities that have competences for investigating. Furthermore, with the help of two witnesses rule, each case is silenced and often also the victim is culpevolized.
The outcome of the Royal commission in Australia was not in particular the number of victims, but that the procedure were harmful to the victim and helped the child molester continue doing harm.
As for asking for money, it is now a continuous request for money, and more will come soon.
nice to have you here with us.
@teenadave7, I reported an elder who was writing love letters to my teenage brother-in-law, saying how much he loved him. I presented the letters which the elders wrote to my elders, one of whom was a Gilead missionary. After examining the love letters, the elders said they could see nothing wrong and instead councelled me to fix up my relationship with the elder. Well, before I showed the elders I had shown the letters to the CO. When the CO heard how the elders handled it he hit the roof, scolded them and wrote a letter to the branch with the love letters in, asking for help to be given to the elder. Today the elder I reported is no longer an elder. But if not for the CO, he would get away with his love letters and hands around the shoulders and sweet whispers in the ear.
And that is what happens in so many cases: the elders support one another, and pedofiles get away with raping children. In the case I was involved with above, even the perpetrators own love letters weren’t enough proof for the elders. What more, a child, only one, who claims an elder molested him/her? what proof can they possibly offer? And instead of the perpetrators getting disciplined, it’s the victims and whistleblowers who get into trouble.
And nothing changes! The GB refuses to care about the victims.
If an airplane crashes, an investigation is immediately taken to find out what went wrong. When the problem is found, changes worldwide are immediately made. For the org, although there are thousands of victims, no investigation takes place. No changes are made. More and more victims are created. Leading to more and more law suits. Resulting in more and more millions of $ being paid out. And the witnesses all keep quiet, because to speak out about it means getting d’fed.
Does this sound like what Jesus would have done?
So what is more important to you, to be a Christian, or to be a Witness?
As far as asking for money, didn’t Steven Lett from the GB say in the broadcast that he wasn’t backward in coming forward to ask for donations? Never before in the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses has this been done.
It seems that you have not got your eyes open wide enough. I suggest you start caring for the victims of the org, because there are lots and lots of them, and the org isn’t changing one bit to stop victims from continuing to be made.
It should read: I presented the letters the elder wrote to my elders
Great idea to have a survey. The survey helps to give a voice to these people who really need to be heard. Thanks!
I have left some information on your Get Involved page so I won’t repeat myself here, but one thing that also started to push me out of the so called truth was being told by the elders I was reading to much ancient history and Archaeology, this was around 1990 4 years later I finally left, when they came to my house and asked why I’d stopped going I said because of them, I started doing evening classes in Archaeology and History I am now an Atheist you can read my other remarks on the other page on this. my first wife and I went our separate ways 8 years later a few years after that I remarried I.m 58 now, I would truly like to help other people leave religion if it’s what they want to do and not waste 4 years doing it like I did, I should of disassociated myself straight away that’s my regret now. If your an Atheist and you are doing some sort of charitable work say helping homeless animals you don’t believe in any reward at all how many religious people would still do what they do if there was no reward for them, just to do something for the sake of doing it, think about that. A lot of people do good just because they want to it make them feel good.
PS I know I said 2 years on the Get Involved Page, that was when I was missing meetings then going back Etc by the way the elders didn’t show any signs of wanting to help me or my first wife until we completely stopped going, then we had 3 visits where I told them I had no intention of ever going back and my wife wouldn’t talk to them at all.
Hi, I am no victim of sexual abuse, anyway I stepped down as an overseer in the 80ies¸one of y great friends was Jim Penton, now I feel they exert a great pressure based on blood guiltiness for not dedicating more or all free time to their “preaching activity”; I saw somewhere that even a member of the Gov Body preached on that; would you please provide some more info ?
BR
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Thank you for setting up this place. When they disfellowship you it feels like you are completely alone in the world. I hope more and more people who leave or are asked to leave find this place so they can move on.
I noticed a lot of the news is about sexual abuse but I rarely see anything mentioned about the physical abuse many of the children and wives are doomed to suffer. My father was an elder an for years many knew about beatings he gave me. They all just turned a blind eye toward it. I know of several women who experienced incredible abuse but were never offered any help because it would bring reproach on Jehovah’s name.
I sincerely hope more people find this place and get the help they need so they do not return just because they are feeling alone an scared.
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