When I was a Jehovah’s Witness, I didn’t like to talk about Armageddon.
Don’t get me wrong, I loved to talk about the paradise. Who wouldn’t? I’d cheerfully tell anyone who asked, be they householder, interested person at the meetings, or curious workmate, about the awesome future that awaited. I’d talk about a world free from war, free from crime, full of incredible adventures that a peaceful, united human race would enjoy forever.
But when people asked how God would achieve this, I found myself getting a little vague and fuzzy about the details.
I mean, how do you say: “Well, first God needs to kill you and everyone you love, unless of course you fancy converting?” without making yourself look like a bit of a extremist loon?
I remember sitting in District Conventions, when the speaker would be holding forth with sound and fury on the subject of how God’s wrath would soon consume all those who failed to serve him. I would glance guiltily across at any “worldly” people who happened to be in the stadium, like the security guys, or the people working the concession stands. I’d feel like walking over to them and saying; “Don’t worry, he’s not talking about you, or your family or friends,” but I couldn’t, because he was.
I knew very well that unless they became Jehovah’s Witnesses, they were dead men and women walking.
Armageddon: An act of justice?
Let’s take a second to actually analyse the Watchtower’s teachings on Armageddon. It is presented by Watchtower as the war that Jehovah God will soon use to remove all of the Earth’s governments, and most of the Earth’s population, and install his own brand of rulership on the planet. He will fight it with his spiritual armies of angels, with his son Jesus leading the charge. He will have no need of human help, so Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be involved in any actual combat. Their role will simply be to stand and watch.
Who will survive? Well it depends who you ask. Or more correctly, it depends on who you are when you ask.
If you are a member of the public asking this question, you’ll probably get the answer: “That’s for God to decide. Only Jehovah can read a person’s heart. We don’t know who will survive and who won’t.” Take for example the FAQ on this subject from Watchtower’s official website JW. org. (Bold is mine.)
Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “
there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.
Well, that sounds okay on the surface. Maybe I can just live a good life, treat my neighbour well, and Jesus will read my heart, see that I’m basically a loving, kind man and I’ll be spared?
No. Because this isn’t the answer Watchtower gives behind the scenes to an indoctrinated Jehovah’s Witness. Here are some examples of what Watchtower has said about Armageddon in other publications, with even more examples available at jwfacts.com (Bold has been added)
“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19
“During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known Gods righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.” Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?”
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
So it’s pretty definitive. While Watchtower tries to spin the doctrine to the general public that “all sorts of people might in theory survive Armageddon” the actual message in-house is that unless you are a practicing Jehovah’s Witness, you are toast.
Contemplate that for a while. Watchtower’s doctrine is that everyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness will be killed, no matter how loving, how kind, how selfless they are in other areas of their life. They could have spent their life in Medicine Sans Frontiers, selflessly dedicating themselves to providing medical care to fellow human beings in some of the worst places on Earth, whereas a Jehovah’s Witness may have simply worked as an IT engineer in a comfortable office, and never really helped anyone much.
But come Armageddon, it would be the Jehovah’s Witness who would survive, and the selfless medic who would die screaming.
To summarise, the non-Witness population of the planet would undergo a systematic slaughter of every single man woman and child. There is a name for the systematic killing of a civilian population solely for the purpose of extermination.
Genocide.
The ethics of genocide
You don’t have to use your imagination to see what Armageddon would look like. Human history is replete with examples of genocide. To glimpse the future that a “loving” God will being, look to the concentration camps of World War II. Look to the mass graves and “ethnic cleansing” in the Balkans, or the hacking to death of vast scores of Tutsi and moderate Hutu by the Hutu majority in Rwanda.
Or look on the news reports right now at the work of ISIS in the Middle East, who are currently engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Yazidi people.
Now, it goes without saying that 99% of Jehovah’s Witness are no doubt just as horrified as everyone else when they see the awful genocide that the so-called Islamic State are currently committing against the Yazidi population. The wholesale slaughter of men women and children, often in gruesome and sadistic ways, is an appalling crime that has brought universal condemnation from the international community and revulsion from anyone with even a halfway decent moral code.
Yet these men, women and children being slaughtered at the hands of ISIS, are the very same men, women and children who would be slaughtered at the hands of Jehovah if he brought Armageddon today, a slaughter the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be obligated to support and celebrate as a righteous act.
And it’s not like the slaughter would be any more humane; Watchtower does not teach that Jehovah will painlessly disintegrate his victims or cause them to simply fall asleep in quick, merciful death as would arguably be within his power to enact. No, Watchtower portrays this event as a violent holocaust, with people being crushed, burned and mutilated in a manner of which the sadists of ISIS would surely approve.
To prove this point, let’s take a look at some Watchower artwork depicting the event.
This is just a small sample of art produced by Watchtower to demonstrate what they believe Armageddon will look like. A whirlwind of terror and grisly violent death unleashed against a powerless and unsuspecting civilian population.
If you’re still in any doubt, listen to Governing Body Member Tony Morris, one of Watchtower’s seven leading men, hold forth on how those God kills will burn and split open like hotdogs.
Even worse, according to Watchtower theology, those who die before Armageddon will almost certainly be resurrected into God’s New World in order to have a second chance, whereas those who die at his hands at Armageddon are eternally destroyed. Remember that Watchtower FAQ quoted earlier in the article?
Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “
there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Why do I say “even worse?” Because this teaching creates an horrific moral loophole. If Witnesses take their theology to its logical conclusion, they should be celebrating the deaths of “worldly” people at the hands of killers like ISIS, for those “worldly” people at least have a chance of resurrection in the new world, whereas if they escape the ISIS sadists but then die at Armageddon, they are doomed forever.
Again, to stress, 99% of Witnesses would be horrified if one of their number suggested this.
An elder who gave a talk from a Kingdom Hall platform stating that Christians should rejoice in the death of worldly people, and that groups like ISIS were doing the people they killed a favour by sending them en-mass to Paradise via the loophole of pre-armageddon death, would appall his audience, probably have his microphone muted, be hauled off the platform and into a back-room, be given a savage dressing down by the rest of the elders, and would probably not allowed to give another talk for a very long time.
Yet this theoretical Elder’s logic, whilst horrifying and unacceptable to most Witnesses, is a correct reading of the logical end consequence of Watchtower doctrine.
Genocide is always genocide
The more I came to realise what the Armageddon doctrine actually entailed, the more I came to fear there might be something horribly wrong with the Organisation I was supporting and the doctrine it promoted. Were such a violent act to be committed by a human organisation or movement, I would be revolted, and condemn it for the vile act of barbarism it was.
So how did it suddenly become acceptable if the very same people were slaughtered by a deity who claimed to be the very essence of love? Billions of defenceless men, women and children, all killed horribly because they were not convinced that a slightly obscure and insignificant religion that occasionally knocked on their door, or stood silently next to carts full of wafer-thin magazines, was actually the One True Faith?
Like many before me, I increasingly found my conscience could not support the teachings Watchtower promoted.
Like many before me, I came to properly research my beliefs, and thus realised that the teachings Watchtower promoted were often not even in harmony with the Bible.
And in time, like many before me, I left the Watchtower religion. In a way, Armageddon set me free.
Just not quite in the way Watchtower had intended.
Good to see Will Smith making an appearance in the last illustration (bottom right)!
Another outstanding article with very sound reasoning.
Thanks.
AJ
First the aside regarding office workers and IT engineers not being charitable is presumptious but I understand the need to compare to another often maligned category (corporate culture is seen as greedy not benevolent or helpful in the JW artistry). I also realize that the reference to jwfacts.org creates a circular argument as jwfacts.org article references certain aspects of the jwsurvey.org site (namely the lack of Watchtower coverage).
To keep the appearance of objectivity, a revisit or research inspired by jwfacts.org would have been beneficial (http://mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html).
Overall, I like the article, but something missed in the above statements is how the Watchtower artwork draws on some scenes of the 9/11 events–tall buildings falling into the street, fireballs plummeting from the sky, etc.
Hi there :)
Thanks for reading the article, and I got a chuckle from your username. ;)
I take your point on the choice of contrasting an MSF medic with an IT engineer. My choice of an IT professional was simply as an example of what many would consider a “normal” safe job that didn’t require a huge amount of sacrifice to carry out, and contrast it with the sacrifice required to be an MSF medic working with ebola patients or holding in the guts of a civilian in a war zone whilst bullets ripped up the air. It wasn’t intended as a slight on IT professionals. Who knows, some of my best friends might be IT professionals ;)
I reference JW facts because for many Witnesses this article might be the first time they’ve read anything critical of the Watchtower, and if I’ve helped them to think, I want to them point them towards other resources that can help open the minds even further :)
On your point that Watchtower draws on apocalyptic imagery, I agree, though it’s hard nowadays to create any image where a city is destroyed and not inadvertently seem like it’s referencing 9/11. The scope of the article is limited and sometimes one has to be brutal with the word count. There will be more articles on Armageddon coming in the next few months, so we hope to cover some of these wider points then.
Thanks again for your comments :)
:-) Love it, love the writing, too! Stay on the DL, bro, or sis–you..!!
Hope you don’t mind it took me a while to get it straight who was org and who was come but wanted to make a quick correction – it is jwfacts.com not org.
Sorry for the errors org or com
Great article. Out of curiosity, what is your day job? You have a gift for writing.
Thank you. I can’t really tell you my day job sadly as I’m faded, not DF’d, hence the air of mystery surrounding my identity… ;)
Covert fade,
Nice article i just can’t help to think about how fear based this organization is. Im in the same predicament as well and thats a “fader” along with my wife, son, daughter and hopefully my other son who is still at Walkill Bethel for another couple months. If its not fear of second death for disloyalty or lack of ministry, activity in the congregation, then its destruction at Armageddon. And this fear trickles down to fear of Disfellowshipping, being avoided as bad association or week. Fear is a part of every aspect of this religion. Fear even moves most JW’s to turn in their time report at the end of each month; fear that is of the dreaded call from group overseer or if your a brother removal of privileges for turning in that slip. All religions use fear induced phobias in one way or another but not many to this extent.
One more for the fear pile – you will be blood guilty if you don’t preach.
Most most excellent article. Common sense unfortunately isn’t all that common at times with certain ones.
Thank you for your hard work as always. We appreciate the hours and hours it takes to put together such a piece. Thank you . We are grateful for people like yourself who put themselves out there.
Grammar. Something I hear ALL the time…even from Lloyd.
A person cannot say
“I was A Jehovah’s Witness” anymore than a person can say
“I was A Lloyd’s friend” .
Correctly ” I was ONE OF Jehovah’s Witnesses”
(I was ONE of Lloyd’s Friends)
or “I was A Witness of Jehovah’s”
(I was a friend of Lloyd’s)
G
Hi there.
Yeah, I do take your point on the JW grammar, although it seems to be a regional thing. I actually never used that term much, I always said “I’m a Jehovah’s Witness”, and a lot of my friends did too. But in other parts of the country “One of Jehovah’s Witnesses” seemed to be the immovable rule.
I do agree that “One of Jehovah’s Witnesses” is more grammatically correct, something to note for the future perhaps, though there are times where the longer form seems to gunk up an otherwise short an elegant sentence, and also seems to imply that they actually ARE legitimate Witnesses for the entity the define as Jehovahs, which is another reason I try not to use it.
Tldr; Good point, but I’ll probably still alternate between the two ;)
I think the clumsy grammar stems from the clumsy phrasing of the name itself. For instance, you don’t hear someone say, “I am one the Catholics” or “I am one of the Baptists.” They simply state “I’m Catholic” or “I’m a Baptist.” For anyone not closely associated with the Watchtower Organization, I think the “I’m one of” phrasing sounds odd.
Furthermore, based on the scripture at Isaiah 43:10, any Christian or Jewish person could consider themselves “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” (uncommon, but I have heard it from a few Baptists and Pentacostals) whereas “a Jehovah’s Witness” seems to identify one as part of the Watchtower Organization. I think the oddly phrased name stems from the fact that when the name was chosen, organized religion was still being denounced as “a snare and a racket.”
Bottom line is that I agree with Covert Fade, either phrasing may be appropriate at times.
WS
Yes, I agree. Actually, this is a big deal in my neck of the woods, and on the rare occasion that I speak to JWs these days I enjoy deliberately referring to them as “a Jehovah’s Witness” just to annoy them. I enjoy watching that slight inflection of discomfort cross their face as they mentally strain the gnat with me.
There is no alteration in Grammar or “options”. Either it is wrong or it is correct .
If I hear someone speaking poorly, I instantly question their education.
If we don’t even know the correct name of who we were or who we are now trying to wake up, why would they listen to anything that comes out of our mouth if the first thing we say is wrong ? Send it in to an English teacher and they will have a coronary . Trust me.
A mathematical equation is either true or false. But language is alive, and changes with time and popular usage.
“Although widely disapproved as nonstandard and more common in the habitual speech of the less educated, ain’t … is flourishing in American English”
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ain't
So I ain’t troubled when people say I am “a Jehovah’s Witness.”
If I understand what they mean, that’s the important thing. That’s what truth is all about.
I agree Simon. By the usage assigned to this phrasing by the Watchtower, they have changed the standard grammatical usage into a proper name like Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jehovah’s Witness. That makes it much more difficult to assign one and only one grammatical usage.
But it’s only a minor point of interest and not worth debating too much. It’s a rather small issue in the grand scale of issues at hand here in our forum.
“That’s all I have to say about that” – Forrest Gump
WS
Agreed
Why you trippin yo ain’t no need for one of grammar nazis
Either way, you were still a “hot mess”…
I always hated that term ‘one of Jehovah’s Witnesses’. I remember an elder at an assembly brought it up once and told us that is how we should be called. I distinctly remembered thinking ‘That sounds ridiculous.’ and I still think so. One of Jehovah’s Witnesses sounds lame to me.
I remember I was working with a sister at the doors once and she used that term to describe who we were. I absolutely cringed because it sounded so ridiculous. Sorry Garrett, I don’t mind at all someone saying “I’m a Jehovah’s Witness” and personally, I do not believe it is grammatically incorrect to use it. But that is just my personal opinion on the subject.
A strange argument over grammar but the correct way to say our religious persuasion is “I am A Witness of Jehovah”.
It’s grammatically more correct, but my problem is that the phrase implies that there IS a Jehovah as described by Watchtower that one can be a Witness of. It’s a bit like calling the religion “The Truth,” it just feels to me like loaded language that gives the religion a certain credence I do not feel it deserves. Hence my own preference for the grammatically incorrect but less loaded “A Jehovah’s Witness.”
When I was younger, I heard a braintease about 3 men and 5 black or white hats (http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/the-puzzle-of-the-3-hats/?_r=0); it seems to be a similar riddle with religion/spirituality. We are given a hat and if we have enough lifetime and open-minds, we can observe other hats in front of us but none of us knows without deliberation who has the “truth” hat. IF there is absolute truth about God and spirituality.
Thus, if we believe that the Creator (this Higher Power) provided multiple permutations of personality, style, POVs, and character, then we must assume He (or She) also set in motion multiple paths thru which to connect suiting multiple permutations of personality, style and character. Thus, the allegory is more aligned to the three blind men ushered into a circus tent to examine an unknown beast and to perceive an elephant through touch, smell, and sound. Each arrives at a filtered conclusion different from the facts, and different from each man’s experience of the beast.
JW’s perceive the Creator through the filter of a world of chaotic, demonic madness which has no solution but from Heaven and a Ravaging and Conquering God who will re-create. Their Krishna–Gita 11:32, “my present task is destruction”. Atonement is not via connecting to the Creator but through the Creator’s creation, an organization of men. Is that creature worship?
Islam, as practiced by some obscure corners of that sect, offers an explanation similar to other “universal” religious viewpoints on a final judgement. Quran 10:47 (http://2pm.co/demo/2500/10/47/), roughly stating, “And for every nation there is a Messenger. So when their Messenger (of God) comes, the issue between them is judged with all fairness, and they are not done injustice to.”
Naturally, JW’s in present incarnation can not take on this cloak of universal salvation for internal control and administrative, fiscal survival. Also, if you think I’m a bit over-the-top with my Oppenheimer-esque quotes, at one time some Watchtower leaders speculated that J* would induce the nations (“Kings North and South”) to turn their ICBM arsenals against each other [citation needed].
And yet, I had a presiding overseer who was known to remark during field service, “kill ’em all, let jehovah sort them out.”
Oh, how we laughed. My only excuse was that I was a teenager, trying desperately to please my “elders”. His excuse was that he was disconnected from his conscience.
That is funny. I wish I could have heard him say that. I remember how uncomfortable some people were when I used the term “kill”, like “Jehovah is going to KILL all the unrighteous.” They would tell me that “destroy”, or better yet, “remove” is more appropriate. I still like to use that word a lot when talking to family about Armageddon. You can see the little grimmace of dissonance in their eyes.
Pow, wow an elder quoting a Catholic leader from the darkest days of the Catholic crusades, where they were willing to kill their own in an attempt to root out the protestant sympathizers….could that happen again? In a kingdom hall?
Great article. Every time I hear Morris speak, he shows what a foolish man he truly is.
Great article Covert. Keep up the writing. I wish I had this kind of forum when I was trying to get out as they say. We all use different terminology depending on where we live. Seems slightly pointless and petty.
Lisa
Great article. And I’d like to add to this that once you are resurrected, if you get this far, you will have precisely 1000 years to preach and teach to the “unrighteous”. Then Satan is released AGAIN. So, you may have behaved yourself all that time only to be stumbled by Satan at the last hurdle and then be destroyed for all eternity. Although Watchtower don’t name this moment, it is actually a second Armageddon. So it’s like “thanks for all your hard work in preaching and teaching to the resurrected, but unfortunately you have been stumbled by Satan. Oh well, thanks for all you have done, but I’m going to destroy you for good this time.”
Once
Great article Covert Fade – according to JW reasoning, genocide is OK when Jehovah does it, but it is not OK when others do it.
To begin with, is Armageddon even possible according to JW theology?According to the WT, Armageddon will only strike when the JWs are the only religion remaining and they subsequently come under attack. The JWs being the only religion that will remain after the destruction of false religion by the UN is a necessary prerequisite in order for Armageddon to start according to WT theology. Without this prerequisite being met, Armageddon cannot start.
According to the WT, it will be the UN’s one thought to destroy all other religions except the JWs as the JWs are the only peace-loving religion on earth, and God will put it in the UN’s heart to carry out this one thought. But is it true that the JWs are the only peace-loving religion on earth to abstain from participating in warfare?
There are in fact a number of religions which do not participate in warfare. Christian churches known for their stance against war include:
-Moravians (one of the very first Protestant religions dating back to the 1500’s)
-Brethern (Dunkards) groups, including Church of the Brethren
-Anabaptist groups, including
Mennonites (16th century group numbering 1.5 million)
Hutterites
Schwenkfelders
Bruderhof Communities
Amish (numbering approximately 200,000)
-Society of Friends (Quakers)
-Doukhobors – 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
-Molokans – 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
-Some Pentecostal groups such as the
Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
-Seven Day Adventists
-Community of Christ
-Christadelphians
-Worldwide Church of God
-Pax Christi – A Catholic peace movement
-Fellowship of Reconciliation – A group formed in 1914 to unite pacifists regardless of denomination.
All major religious denominations have affiliated associations including
-Anglican Pacifist Fellowship
-Methodist Peace Fellowship
-Baptist Peace Fellowship
-Orthodox Peace Fellowship
-Lutheran Peace Fellowship
-Presbyterian Peace Fellowship
(list taken from:
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/war.php)
The UN would therefore have no reason to destroy these religions. God would also have to put it in the heart of the UN to spare these Christian religions, as well as the non-Christian religions which do not participate in warfare. Bottom line – the JW’s prerequisite that they be the only religion spared destruction by the UN in order for Armageddon to strike will not be realized.
Well, dee2, (no ar-too?)
I just sent the NGO office of the UN a reminder email note that they’re supposed to start carting the other religious groups off to the “Amtrak concentration camps” sometime “just around the corner” and somewhere in the USA “Heartland” [of course, JW’s are not as extreme as this web-slinger’s theories… http://americanholocaustcoming.blogspot.com/2009/02/confirmed-amtrak-deathcamp-of-beech.html%5D.
We’re going to need a bigger camp..
Some pretty gruesome imagery there. Though I had to chuckle at the pic where Armageddon strikes at the moment some mugger with a pistol in his hand was trying to rob a lady. Poor guy probably thinks he brought it on. Talk about a guilt trip.
Anyway, something in particular just blew my mind. I (& I’m sure many others) was always mystified how the rest of the world are so tolerant of Watchtower, viewing Witnesses as “nice” people, basically giving that whole organization a free pass (a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card, if you prefer). And you nailed it! They have TWO different stories!! One is for their members – Armageddon will UNEQUIVOCALLY destroy ALL NON-Jehovah’s Witnesses. Then there’s the watered-down, candy-coated version they tell the public – Well, no one knows, only Jehovah can read hearts, blah blah blah. I am FUMING right now!!! What a bunch of PHONIES & SHYSTERS! This makes me sick. If I ever had a shred of sympathy for WT, it is GONE. This behavior is low-down, duplicitous, deceitful, cowardly, dishonest,… It’s lower than a snake’s belly. It’s behavior worthy of the lowest kind of con-artist and scumbag. Really despicable. Same thing when Jackson was backed into a corner during ARC, and claimed it would be “presumptuous” to say WT was God’s only Channel on Earth. What spineless, groveling jellyfish. I didn’t think I could be any more disgusted with this organization, but in spite of all the horror stories of child abuse, I am feeling a real visceral loathing of this organization that I have never felt before. I could go on, but I’ve said enough. Thank you for this article.
You took the words right out of my mouth. I can never EVER respect this group con men. Nor can I condone the behavior of the elders that continue to make excuses for them. There simply are no excuses for this vile behavior.
Your comment about how people view them as “nice people” demonstrates perfectly why cults are so dangerous. There is this benign facade that hides what lie beneath the surface. Watchtower is like the spitting spider which gently carresses its prey with a series of cautious touches. A prey item that can literally obliterate the spitting spider in seconds will sit there oblivious to the daface while the spider carresses it until it gets close enough. Once within striking distance the spider spits venom laced silk onto its intended target immobilizing it. A few more shots of webbing then it goes in for the final blow, a fatal venom injection.
That was many of us. Even some very intelligent people capable of intellectually decimating any witness have fallen victim to watchtowers seductive ways. We became entangled by a fantasy that would appeal to any decent person. Freeing ourselves came/comes with a price. A limb an ear, half of our face, whatever. I’d rather lose any of those than be eaten alive by a cult.
That should say danger not daface ;p
I know this is a hate JWs website. But if your trying to have some objectivity what about all the other religions of the world? Don’t most of all religions think theirs is the correct one and all are to die when the Messiah returns? For example the rapture? Or don’t born again Christians think that they are the only ones to be saved and the rest of the world are going to burn in hell? Don’t jews believe they are the chosen ones? Muslim think they are the only true religion. Not sure what they think is going to happen to all the infidels.
What I am trying to say is that all religions have their crazy quirks. I for one still believe that if there is a god he is bigger then all of us and religions don’t really matter.
Hi there.
I assure you this is not a JW hate website. I have family and many friends who are still Jehovah’s Witnesses who I love dearly. What this site does is criticise The Watchtower organisation, and present evidence and argument that Watchtower treachings are not only factually erroneous, but often dangerous and that their practices and policies cause significant harm to those we loved still trapped inside.
I have to say, your “what about other religions” comment doesn’t make sense to me. Do you want this website to start critiquing all religions? That’s like demanding a website set up to raise awareness of poverty must also raise awareness of every other aspect of human suffering if it is to be legitimate. That makes no sense, especially when resources are limited.
I will be honest: when I hear someone respond to a specific criticism of watchtower by failing to address the specifics of the points raised and instead saying “But what about all other religions?” it feels like that person is trying to divert attention from the issue.
May I ask, what are your feelings about Watchtower’s teaching on Armageddon, since this is the issue under discussion in these comments?
It’s like a criminal who is asking the judge: but what about all those other criminals?
My point was that you are singling out the JW beliefs about Armageddon like its the only religion in the world that teaches some type of chatclysmic end to the world and to all nonbelievers. And in a way or so it seems like your aligning Jehovah with ISIS where you mention the Yazidi people. As a JW I take umbrage to your remarks.
I believe that if some type of Armageddon ever happens we will all be shocked by its outcome, the JWs too. My thoughts are that if there is a a god out there watching the mass killings that are happening all over the world (amongst other things)why isn’t he stopping it? Its seems to be aptly proven that man can not rule man justly.
The Watchtower a few years back described people that are hangers-on. Using this system to get a head like a higher education, high paying job etc..and still going to the meetings. Thats me! I don’t put much faith in the 7 tubby aging rock stars in Brooklyn. So, to put it succinctly, no I don’t think Armageddon well ever happen. And I am not trying to argue but just trying to point out that most religions have similar thoughts on a chatclysmic end to the world.
Hi Markie.
The article never said that JW’s were the only religious group in the world that had an Armageddon style doctrine. I’m still not sure why you think that’s so important.
Yes. Other religions do indeed have have gruesome teachings about divine genocide, no argument from me on that point, but that does not somehow make the implications of Watchtowers Armageddon teachings any less horrifying.
If I stole money from an old lady, would my saying “well other people are stealing money from old ladies as well” excuse my actions? Of course not. So why does “well other religious have teachings justifying violent slaughter from God as well” justify your own?
I just don’t get the logic of your argument here.
I’m sorry if you take umbrage at my point that the people ISIS are slaughtering to the horror of everyone, including JW’s, would also be slaughtered by God (according to Watchtower) if he brought Armageddon now, but your umbrage doesn’t make it any less true. Now, a logical counter argument on this point might make it less true. I’m genuinely happy to consider a logical counterpoint from you on this issue, but I’m afraid mere umbrage is no use as a compelling argument. :)
I’m also genuinely curious on another matter you mention. You point out that you have no faith in the Governing Body, but still consider yourself a JW. Do you feel that the current GB have apostatised away from the true faith, or do you think that Jehovah will cleanse his organisation?
Do you hold all current Watchtower teachings or do you think that some are mistaken?
To repeat, I’m not trying to attack or catch you out, I’m genuinely interested in how you see the current state of the religion, I’ve not before spoken with someone who identifies as a JW but appears so unimpressed by the Governing Body, and I’m curious.
The GB are nothing more then imperfect men who think they are doing what’s right. I don’t think the current group have a clue what to do with this generation thing. They have over spent other people’s money yet they tell you not to get a higher education and so on. The bible tells us not to put our faith in earthling man and that includes them. I feel they they are trying yet they are often misguided.
@Markie or anyone still not aware of the big issues in the organization.
Watch the whole thing and come back with questions
http://youtu.be/u5JnngqQYvc
@ Markie
RE: “I feel they [the GB] are trying, but they are often misguided.”
— Misguided by whom? – The “Holy Spirit”???
It all comes down to whether you really believe the Bible. I believe that is the issue Markie. The Watchtower’s interpretation has proved to be false in important areas of understanding. Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God? If you do and you stay in it, then the Watchtower could lead you absolutely astray from everlasting life. This is a big deal.
My thoughts on Har-Mageddon have always been that God will read hearts and destroy truly WICKED people. I don’t water down the message I preach as that is what I believe. After coming across this site, for some while now, I think that if my belief is not true and that of the WTS is, then I’m going to be killed off too. That only adds to my guilt; not your fault CF! The WTS are good at doing that.
AJ
Personally, I don’t believe in a future great battle between God and humans such as Har-Mageddon. My thinking is that the Creator has given mankind the tools to grow into the type of benevolent society we all desire. In general, humanity is evolving to be less violent and more tolerant, with more people being given a chance to reach their best potential. I guess you can say that I have faith in the Creator’s work as being “very good” as the scriptures say.
That said, I can relate to and respect your thoughts on Har-Mageddon. They are logical and consistent with the belief in a benevolent God. And who wouldn’t want to see God eliminate all the murderers, rapists, and child-molesters – i.e. the truly wicked – from the world? I am glad to hear that you preach in accord with your conscience and do not let a man-made organization control your integrity.
WS
@markie
Thank you for clarifying how you feel on this matter.
Can I ask, do you feel that Jehovah is guiding the organisation at all? You feel that the GB are misguided and unsure how to deal with the generations issue. Do you not feel that Jehovah should be guiding them in this matter if this is his true organisation, or do you feel that Jehovah is allowing them to flounder without his guidance for a specific reason?
@Markie, the point that your note makes is confirming what CF explains in his article. We can also argue that any group claiming to have exclusivity on spiritual “wisdom” / truth (be it called a quirk or peculiarity) is suspect, especially since that group would need to dominate the world in the “short time” it left for a remnant of believers to be “saved”. Furthermore, since all groups claim to be “THE one and only,” we automatically know that the vast majority are liars so when we find their history is rife with misquotes, missed predictions (big red barn wall, hurled white paint brush misses), and flip-flops in directions [not a slight turn of the steering wheel to stay on course, a complete 180–going in opposite direction], I — and, not sure about the other “true believers” like Covert, Cedars and Jeni–find it difficult to sip, gargle and swallow the “Kool-Aid” without a healthy dose of skepticism and reluctance to have unconditional obedience and submission, or respect for authority [respect has to be earned, by the way–at least that is what husbands are told].
@Markie,
Your comment: “Or don’t born again Christians think that they are the only ones to be saved and the rest of the world are going to burn in hell?”
Being born into the JWs, at one point I actually thought that there was a religious denomination called The Born Agains. Later I came to realize that “born again” referred to a number of Protestant or Envangelical Religions including Baptists and Pentecostals as well as others.
Most “Born Agains” believe that everyone who puts faith in Christ and accepts him as their personal savior will be saved and raptured. So they are quite different from the Witnesses who beilieve that only their specific brand of Christianity will be saved.
Also, “Born Agains” will tell you their beliefs on the rapture and hell the moment they meet you. They don’t have one set of teachings for when they are trying to convert you and another for after you are a member of their church.
WS
I was a Witness in 1996 when Martin Bryant killed 35 people and wounded 23 at nearby Port Arthur in Tasmania. My congregation situated about 80 kilometres from Port Arthur and we had many friends who were in the Port Arthur congregation. One of our close friends had a daughter that worked at the tourist site so when we got the news about the massacre we were frantic with worry. The massacre effected every Australian, in particular Tasmanians, who had to this point lived in relative security. We were all grieving for the loss of life and trauma – except some Witnesses. The next meeting immediately after the massacre was a real eye opener for me. Remember that this was a few days after the event. At no time during the meeting did any elder get on stage to address the grief that most were feeling. There was no mention of the massacre and the need to pray for the victims, their families, nor the community. After the meeting I called the Elders together and sobbing with grief attacked the elders lack of compassion and natural empathy for the community and members of the congregation that were struggling. The elders told me that no one would need support particularly congregation members who would realise that this was just a sign of the last days. When an organisation can teach mass extermination by God of all people not Organisationally connected we end up with people who have lost all natural affection. So began my slow but eventual departure from the Machine.
So sad, we visited Tassie a year after that terrible event, picked up some acorns from there and planted them on my farm in Vic. I still think of those poor souls when i water my oaks… I even have a sign on my farm ‘SEVEN OAKS’ in remembrance. Jah would have to plant out the entire goldilocks sphere to remember all he kills at Armageddon, cept he don’t really exist, do he…
The JWs must be the only religion that relishes/is indifferent to bad news – they need bad things to happen so that they can justify that they are living in the last days.
The WT uses carefully selected words to say one thing to the public, and something completely different to their members regarding who will be destroyed at Armageddon. The FAQ answer means something different to the public than it does to the organization. The candy-coated FAQ answer demonstrates the length the WT will go to get good public relations to give themselves a good image to draw in more converts.
The last thing the public wants to hear, is “you will die forever if you don’t join our religion”, so the WT coats it all in sugar, and carefully words their public statements to make it seem like they are more liberal, but they clearly are not from the mountain of qualifiers that they print in their literature.
WT FAQ: “…….Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation”.
To the public those who serve God would include every religion and faith on the planet that believes in monotheism, but this is certainly not the real position of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
WT public relations machinations.
Great Job and i enjoyed your summaries of the Australian royal commision. And who cares about grammar right now. Your fine. The article is about Armageddon!
That is nothing more then a opinion or smoke screen and yes things are said differently in different regions of the world.
All i can say is John 14:6 Says everyone not just the witnesses. I just wish these folks could read the bible and stop getting it wrong only to further their cause.
Great article!
I have one little quibble with the statement: “He will have no need of human help, so Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be involved in any actual combat. Their role will simply be to stand and watch.”
At one time the Watchtower taught that the “anointed” would certainly participate in the slaughter. I don’t know if this has ever been revised by so-called “new light,” and would be grateful to anyone who can show if it has.
For the quote on the anointed helping Jesus to kill billions of people, please see: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/jehovahs-witness-history/anointed-jehovahs-witnesses-kill-me/
*** re chap. 39 p. 281 pars. 11-12 The Warrior-King Triumphs at Armageddon ***
Without a doubt, when the time comes, those of Christ’s brothers already in heaven will have a part in shepherding people and nations with that iron rod. What, though, of God’s servants here on earth? The John class will have no active part in the fighting at Armageddon; neither will its loyal companions, those peoples out of all nations who have been streaming to Jehovah’s spiritual house of worship.
Thanks, Michel.
So, if I understand that correctly, they are now saying that “anointed” Jehovah’s Witnesses who have died will be fighting alongside Jesus in Armageddon, joining in the slaughter, but any JW who hasn’t died (anointed or not) will not participate in the slaughter.
Technically, that’s still JWs being “involved in combat.”
It should be noted that the FAQ does not address who will survive Armageddon:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/who-saved/
It gives an evasive answer which addresses the WT’s promised resurrection that will occur AFTER Armageddon. No mention is made of the JW teaching that this resurrection will NOT include people who died AT/DURING Armageddon since they have already been judged by God.
Better to die BEFORE Armageddon than AT/DURING Armageddon. lol.
The WT FAQ does not address what will happen at/during Armageddon, it does not address who will be destroyed at/during Armageddon.
A great article, Covert Fade. Potent, pertinent and fine.
Think it is probably part of human psyche to ‘entertain’ a doomsday philosophy. Maybe even part of human psyche to welcome and experience the visceral shock of a refutation of said doomsday in that individual’s lifetime.
Much respect. Look forward to more of your articles.
Thanks for the article. Yes, it is true that some Witnesses will feel some degree of discomfort discussing details of this Armageddon teaching with outsiders. Some, I would venture, would even lie about it.
I experienced that firsthand with another teaching of theirs, namely, that the resurrection holds out no hope for families on Paradise Earth. I once was greeted by a Witness standing in the parking lot near my car some years ago. I looked at the pictures in the brochures she was holding that showed all these happy families together on Paradise Earth.
I asked her if the Witnesses really believed what their brochure was showing, and then asked her if that was always the case. I then stated that I asked because I knew that the Watchtower taught that families weren’t going to be families together on Paradise Earth. She assured me that the truth was that families would be together as families, living forever on Earth, and that this was what Witnesses were teaching, and that they had always taught that teaching.
She then asked me if I would be interested in hearing more. I took her number down and told her that I would need to check something and then get back to her on that. I went home, pulled out my copy of “Is This Life All There Is?” and read the portion that stated that no hope is held out for families in the resurrection, and the Watchtower’s “scriptural” justification for saying that (page 176-180, at least they admit that they don’t know how the living arrangements are going to work or even where in that text; the woman insisted that she and the Witnesses knew and always believed and taught what she had told me). I immediately called the woman and left a message informing her that I would not be interested in listening to more because she did not tell me the truth. I also quoted the section of that book in the message I left for her as well. But, it is most deceptive to picture smiling people together in family relationships in their public literature when the Watchtower was actually teaching something else.
Basically, it seems that everybody is going to either be living together unmarried on Paradise Earth, or each individual will have his/her own house, separate from everybody else, for there will be no marriage or family there. And, who are going to raise all the children that will be resurrected? Millions of single mothers? Who knows? If everybody ceased to be married after death and the resurrection, and there won’t be living together in sin, why do they show pictures of families together on Paradise Earth? Maybe there was more light offered along the way and I just didn’t hear about it.
Worst of all, the Watchtower has long preached this final battle of Armageddon that will take place all over the Earth, but most people aren’t really aware, and if they are aware, they aren’t thinking about it, the battle of Armageddon isn’t going to be a worldwide event, if one believes the Bible on the matter. Armageddon isn’t the name of the war or battle, it is the name of the place where the battle will take occur. Armageddon is Har-Megiddo, and it is located in Israel. The Watchtower hadn’t even gotten that right when they started getting people all up a knot about this! Sure, the Bible does teach that the wicked will be wiped out but that isn’t at the battle of Armageddon. That is another event entirely, as any careful readers of their Bibles (not those who solely read the NWT, at any rate) come to know.
@D Charles Pyle:
Interesting point about people living together unmarried on Paradise Earth.
According to Luke 20:34-36:
“The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE. In fact, NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANY MORE, for THEY ARE LIKE THE ANGELS, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection.”
As per Luke 20:34-36 and WT theology, those resurrected on earth will be unmarried eunuchs. And how many unmarried eunuchs will there be?
The Population Reference Bureau has estimated that 108 BILLION people have lived on earth as at mid-2011:
http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
(not to mention how ecologically unsustainable it will be for the earth to accommodate 108 billion resurrected who CAN NEVER DIE plus the 8 million JW (according to WT stats) Armageddon survivors.
*****************************************
The application of Luke 20:34-36 to WT’s promised earthly resurrection:
According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 and will conclude at the outbreak of the Great Tribulation (I suppose any of the 144,000 who are on the earth at the time of the outbreak of the Great Tribulation will be raptured) – that is, the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 occurs in THIS system of things not in THAT (post-Great Tribulation/post-Armageddon) system of things to which the resurrection spoken about at Luke 20:34-36 pertains:
“All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914 and his riding forth to start his kingly conquest by cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons.” ***Revelation, Its Grand Climax At Hand! p. 103***
The resurrection of Luke 20:34-36 therefore does not apply to the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 since the resurrection of the 144,000 occurs in THIS system of things according to WT theology. The resurrection of Luke 20:34-36 must therefore apply to the WT’s promised earthly resurrection in “THAT system of things” to come.
****Correction****
108 billion resurrected who CAN NEVER DIE [[[MINUS]]] the 8 million JW (according to WT stats) Armageddon survivors.
I meant to say that the estimated number of persons who would be resurrected are the number of persons who have ever lived minus the number of JWs who would survive Armageddon.
*****The estimated number of persons who would be resurrected are the number of persons who have ever lived (108 billion as at mid-2011) minus the number of persons who are alive when Armageddon strikes.
@D. Charles Pyle
Good points – the JW’s often fail to take into account the illogical conclusions that become necessary based on the full application of their teachings. According to the current dogma, the only families that will exist in paradise are those few who survive Armageddon and their descendants. And years ago they used to teach that at some point after Armageddon everyone would become single. Thus in marriage ceremonies they used to say ‘until death or divine termination do us part.’
They also give little-to-no thought as to how this paradise will be administrated, how food will be produced and made available, how necessities such as water, power, medicine, etc. will be supplied. Millions of folks running around naked in a huge garden full of fruit trees is a bit far-fetched. They often poke fun at other Christian denominations who envision their future in heaven as sitting on a white, fluffy cloud and playing the harp, but when you consider the conclusions that result from the JW teachings about the future you find that they are equally absurd.
WS
Great article. I looked at the artwork and noticed the lack of children and babies. There are no mothers or fathers clinging to their little ones as buildings and fire balls fall and engulf them. No, they have a woman in a sleezy looking dress and a guy with a skull on his T shirt, a guy brandishing a gun…. yup, lets show how the ‘low life’s’ of society will die because they deserve it don’t they? But we won’t show the true horror of families being killed. Why not show a picture of children being crushed in a stampede as people try to flee the toppling buildings or throw in a few animals ….. If you are going to do it WT lets get real about it.
@Tara
There are no animals in the picture because according to the WT, Isaiah 65:17-25 and Isaiah 11:6-9 indicate that animals will be in paradise. Animals will therefore be spared destruction at Armageddon.
I’ll be sure to tell my cats that some witness will be around to dig them out from the rubble heap I called home and let them know they are now free to do whatever they want….
Who is going to milk the cows during the great trib? Have you noticed in the first illustration a woman holding a girl (just the legs showing) A bit gruesome but shows at least one kid getting zapped. ruthlee
I guess animals count more than non-JW humans, huh?
WS
Interestingly enough, there are some older WT artworks that do indeed portray children dying. I guess they’ve back off a little from that in recent years, but you can also see this happening in some of the WT artwork representing the flood.
I bet that this isn’t lingered over on the door to door work…. doesn’t exactly ‘advertise, advertise, advertise’ does it. PR at it’s worst.
Great article, I find it amazing how there is no end to the logical fallacies that can be taken to their logical conclusion and thus be proven ridiculous. Speaking of ISIS, my father an elder spoke admiringly of them a few months ago in a confidential conversation, of their rejection of the Western, materialistic lifestyle. I know he’s a peaceful American JW who has no intention of initiating violence, but the passivity with which he can stand by and manage to find a redeeming quality in such an evil organization as ISIS, belies the mentality which has permitted the child abuse situation within the JW org. Funny that Witnesses accuse the so-called worldly media for desensitization, seems the other way around to me.
Desensitize is a great way to put it. Here is an excerpt of a recent conversation I had with a couple of elders who were trying to justify not reporting child abuse:
Me:”If someone tells me they’ve been abused by someone in the hall. I’m getting the proper QUALIFIED authorities involved. You brothers can deal judicially with the abuser while he sits in a prison cell”. Also, if someone admits to me that they have abused a child they have two choices. Should I escort you to the police station to turn yourself in? Or you can wait here while I call the police? ”
Elders: “well if you get the police involved in one crime are you going to get them involved in all crimes?”
Me: (astounded by this comment) A crime? Yes, yes I am.
There’s more to this conversation but the idea that a crime should be reported didn’t even occur to them. “You should call the branch first” is the modus operandi for elders. Even the reporting of crimes was a black and white issue for them. “You wouldn’t report an assault would you”…
To think that men who are trained to behave in this manner are instructing people on day to day living is scary. It is irresponsible and inexcusable. I throw it in the face of any elder that if God approves of that kind of conduct then he lacks ethics.
@ Markie
U seem to be hedging ur bets. It’s like, Most of this seems bogus, but…just in case, I’ll stay connected with the org. If u truly believe in “Jehovah”, it kind of seems to me like u’re playing him for a fool. Seems pretty pointless, since he is supposedly able to read hearts.
Regarding other religions & their own “fire & brimstone” doctrines, I have 3 points to make:
1 Most of their followers don’t take those doctrines seriously anymore, whereas most JW’s sincerely believe in a coming Armageddon (so far)
2 The Rapture, End of the World, Hellfire, Death to Infidels, Chosen Nation, etc, etc, etc doctrines of mainstream religions are out there & well-known. Those religions make no attempt to hide or candy-coat them. Everyone knows Hellfire is part & parcel of Catholicism. ISIS does not execute people & then say it was an accident. In fact, they want the world to know exactly what they’re doing. Watchtower, in their own sleazy, despicable way, have 2 different versions of Armageddon’s judgement. They intentionally DECEIVE the world about their true doctrine, so as not to garner disfavor.
3 This Site is not just about WT’s Armageddon teaching. If u’ve been following it at all, u should be able to see the GLARING differences between WT & every mainstream religion, a MOUNTAIN of EVIDENCE pointing to the FACT that The Watchtower Society of Jehovah’s Witnesses is a CULT. THAT reality is what we are all opposing!
My advice to u is, Pick a side. Take a stand. U have the all the data to make an informed decision. ‘Get out of her…if u don’t want to share in her sins & receive part of her plagues’. U seem like an intelligent person. What are u waiting for? Time to start living.
@A4
I 100% agree with you. I especially appreciate your third point. The concept that JWs are no worse than any other religion is quite flawed. Are they as bad as radical Islam terrorists or extreme Fundamentalist Christians (the type that stockpile weapons or bomb abortion clinics)? No. Are they worse than main stream Christian religions such as Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalian, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.? Yes. And the reason they are worse is the undue influence they exercise over their members; those aspects of the BITE model that classify them as a cult. When they forbid their members to get a good education, to accept life-saving medical treatment, to report criminal acts against children to the authorities, and a plethora of other restrictions the majority of the group obey. Why? Because of their undue influence. That is the major issue at stake.
WS
Great article CF, excellent reasoning. This was the issue that started my cognitive dissonance and eventual fade from “the truth.” I started to examine Watchtower’s teaching on this subject, using only the scriptures and their own publications, particularly the revelation Climax book. I started making notes and eventually wrote about 30,000 words on it. My conclusion is that everybody will get a resurrection after Armageddon, and that Armageddon is not going to be the blood bath they describe, merely a cut off point.
I can’t list of all my reasons for this conclusion here, and Revelation is highly symbolic, but I find it significant that at Rev 19:19, 20 the “wild beast” and “false prophet” are destroyed in “the fiery lake”, but “the rest” of humanity are “killed off with the long sword” which is symbolic of general death. My own feeling on this is that Armageddon will be akin to the 185,000 Assyrians killed silently in their sleep by one angel in one night. “The rest” described in Rev 19:20 are then included in the general resurrection described five verses later in Rev 20:5.
Watchtower’s reasoning on this is that those destroyed at Armageddon are the “goats” who “depart into everlasting cutting off” described at Matthew 25:46. But they are wrong on this because the sheep described in this same parable go “into everlasting life”, and simply put, even by their own reasoning, nobody goes off into everlasting life at Armageddon because there is still the test at the end of the 1,000 year reign. So it is clear to me that the separating of the sheep and the goats is the same event as described at the end of this 1,000 year reign in Rev 20:15. (Note also that the attack of Gog and Magog takes place at the end of the 1,000 year reign also, after Satan is released from the abyss.)
Also, scriptures such as Romans 6:7 make it clear that everybody who dies, regardless of the cause, has been acquitted of their sins, and 1 Corinthians 15:22 makes it clear that Christ’s ransom covers everybody – “for just as in Adam ALL are dying, so also in the Christ ALL will be made alive.”
So, Watchtower’s teaching on this subject does not conform with scripture and is clearly designed to be fear mongering – a control technique.
I should add that I am merely using the scriptures to show inconsistencies in the Watchtower theology on this subject (and there are many more scriptures and points I could make with regard to this, but I don’t want to start a theological debate.) I am not passing judgement on whether this genocide is justified or not, or consistent with a loving God, but I do believe that a God of Love should act in a manner consistent with this claim, and that remains to be seen.
I don’t think for a second that I have all the answers. But I do think that if the only lesson we take from this world into the new world (if there is one) is how to use our free will in a way that is to the benefit of everybody, then it is a lesson worth learning. But again, that remains to be seen. In the meantime, if this life is all there is then make the most of it and live in a way that makes the world a better place now.
@Martin
RE: the second Armageddon
The second Armageddon/test at the end of Christ’s 1000-year reign which the WT claims will determine who will live forever (Revelation 20: 7-10) will be meaningless for persons who have been resurrected. Whether or not persons who have been resurrected pass that test is neither here nor there since resurrected persons CAN NO LONGER DIE:
Luke 20:34-36:
“The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE. In fact, NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANY MORE, for THEY ARE LIKE THE ANGELS, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection.”
The only persons to whom this test/second Armageddon will apply are the JW Armageddon survivors since they, although having lived 1000 years (without any freak accidents happening?), can still die. Interestingly, according to WT theology, the number of persons who will fail the test and be destroyed will be “as the sand of the sea” (Revelation 20:8), a large number. So the JWs will manage to make it through the first Armageddon but a large number of them will fail this final test/second Armageddon and be put to death.
So only resurrected persons are guaranteed to live forever since they CAN NO LONGER DIE. There is no guarantee for the JW Armageddon survivors however – what is guaranteed for them is that a large number of them, “as the sand of the sea” (Revelation 20:8), are in fact going to die at the second Armageddon/final test.
There will be trouble in Paradise given the fact that resurrected persons can no longer die – resurrected persons who are nonconformists cannot be put to death.
According to WT theology, it’s better to be a resurrected person than an Armageddon survivor if you want to guarantee that you will live forever on Paradise earth – resurrected persons definitely have an advantage when it comes to the second Armageddon/final test; they are guaranteed to survive given that they can no longer die.
Hello Dee2; Just for my clarification, which resurrection do you speak of? The first one in which it is said “Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years”.– Rev. 20:6
In other words, those who make up the heavenly class (144,000) will never be tested or die the “second death” as they receive immortality at the time of their resurrection.
Anyone surviving Armageddon as well as those in the second “general” earthly resurrection can always be destroyed in the second death. According to JW doctrine if, hypothetically, Napoleon or Hitler came back during the second general resurrection and tried anything before the 1000 year reign ended these two gentlemen would be destroyed in the second death (a non-Adamic forever death) thrown symbolically in the “lake of fire” of eternal destruction.
At least that is what I gleaned after 55 years of this nonsense.
Hello Dee2; Just for my clarification, which resurrection do you speak of? The first one in which it is said “Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years”.– Rev. 20:6
In other words, those who make up the heavenly class (144,000) will never be tested or die the “second death” as they receive immortality at the time of their resurrection.
Anyone surviving Armageddon as well as those in the second “general” earthly resurrection can always be destroyed in the second death. According to JW doctrine if, hypothetically, Napoleon or Hitler came back during the second general resurrection and tried anything before the 1000 year reign ended these two gentlemen would be destroyed in the second death (a non-Adamic forever death) thrown symbolically in the “lake of fire” of eternal destruction.
At least that is what I gleaned after 55 years of this nonsense.
@Big B:
According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 and will conclude at the outbreak of the Great Tribulation; any remaining ones of the 144,000 on earth when the Great Tribulation starts will be taken to heaven – the 144,000 will not be on earth to experience the Great Tribulation.
**Revelation, Its Grand Climax At Hand! p. 103**
“All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914 and his riding forth to start his kingly conquest by cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons.”
So the WT’s heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 occurs in THIS AGE which concludes with the Great Tribulation and Armageddon according to WT theology.
According to Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):
“The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and THEY CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
According to Luke 20:34-36, the resurrection of those who can no longer die takes place in THE AGE TO COME not in THIS AGE.
According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 takes place in THIS AGE, whereas the earthly resurrection will take place in THE AGE TO COME. There is no heavenly resurrection in THE AGE TO COME according to WT theology. So , since the only resurrection that will take place in THE AGE TO COME according to WT theology will be the earthly resurrection, then it is to the WT’s earthly resurrection that Luke 20:34-36 applies. Such persons who will be resurrected on earth, can no longer die.
@Big B cont’d:
Also, on reading Revelation 20, I note that there are two resurrections as follows:
1. The first:
– is of persons who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands – so they will be on earth during the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (the Great Tribulation).
– these persons came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
– The second death has no power over them – so they are immortal, they cannot die. This is assumed to be the heavenly resurrection.
2. The second:
– is of persons who are described as the rest of the dead who did not come to life until the thousand years were ended (Revelation 20:5).
– is after the thousand years so no resurrection occurs during the millennium.
– of these persons there will be those whose names are not found in the book of life who will consequently experience the second death, so they are not immortal.
The persons of the first resurrection who will be granted immortality, had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands – so they will be on earth during the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (the Great Tribulation). The WT applies the first resurrection of Revelation 20 to the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 but that application is not appropriate since the WT’s 144,000 will not be on earth during the rule of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (Great Tribulation).
It’s also interesting to note that according to Revelation 20:5:
“the rest of the dead did not COME TO. LIFE until the thousand years were ended” – so there is no resurrection during the millennium. The resurrections occur at the beginning and at the end of the millennium yet the WT claims that there will be a progressive resurrection during the millennium of all the persons who died before Armageddon.
The WT resorts to an ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” as meaning something else than resurrection:
**Revelation It’s Grand Climax is at Hand (1988)**
“By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “COME TO LIFE” in the sense that they will be perfect humans.”
The irony is that this definition of “COMING TO LIFE” contradicts the previous use of the same expression as referring to the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4): “And they CAME TO LIFE and ruled askings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
**Revelation It’s Grand Climax at Hand (1988)**
“Most of them are already very much alive, since they rode with Jesus against the nations at Armageddon. (Revelation 2:26, 27; 19:14) Indeed, Paul indicated that their RESURRECTION commences soon after the beginning of Jesus’ presence in 1914 and that some are RESURRECTED before others. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, their COMING TO LIFE occurs over a period of time as they individually receive the gift of immortal life in the heavens.—2 Thessalonians 1:7; 2 Peter 3:11-14.
The ad hoc interpretation of “COMING TO LIFE” as “attaining perfection” during the thousand years (with no attempt to provide supporting evidence) is a blatant attempt to avoid the plain meaning of these verses.
According to WT theology “COMING TO LIFE” has two different meanings in the same chapter of Revelation – it means “resurrection” in Revelation 20:4 but in the next verse, Revelation 20:5, it means “attaining perfection”.
@Big B cont’d:
Another point I would like to mention:
Those who are granted the first resurrection of Revelation 20, reign with Christ for 1000 years.
According to WT theology, the heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914. (Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand 1988, pg. 103)
So given that, according to WT theology:
– Christ commenced reigning in 1914
– the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 (the gathering of the 144,000 commenced with the founding of Christianity in 30CE)
BUT assuming that Christ’s 1000-year reign is yet future, then it is clear that the 144,000 will rule with Christ for more than 1000 years.
So the application of the first resurrection of Revelation 20 by the WT to the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 is inappropriate since the WT’s 144,000 reign with Christ for more than 1000 years whereas those granted the first resurrection of Revelation 20 reign with Christ for ONLY 1000 years.
******I am not endorsing a future Great Tribulation (GT). All references to the GT above are as per WT teachings – as I recall, the WT teaches that the GT is yet future and coincides with the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13.
Don’t forget about the birds. All the birds that would be helping “us” clean up the billions of bodies. How could a parent tell a little girl that? Explains why as a teenager sun bathing I would get nervous if I saw a bird flying around above me a lot, I would squirm and move around so it would know I wasn’t “dead” LOL I know, but freaky teachings like that find all kinds of hiding places in a brain.
And who remembers being in service in a nice neighborhood and your partner (maybe you too?) would announce “I’m gonna live in that house in paradise!” Just disgusting. I’m sorry but what an embarrassing group I grew up in.
JWs teach that their god will mass execute all non-JWs at Armageddon despite the fact that this god made a covenant to never again destroy all life by the waters of a flood (Genesis 9:11, 15)
@ D Charles Pyle
RE: living together unmarried on Paradise Earth, or each individual will have his/her own house, separate from everybody else.
I suppose the living arrangements will be similar to Bethel for the resurrected who neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels (eunuchs) (Luke 20:34-36) – everyone will have his/her own room with bathroom; the kitchen, dining room, living room and recreation room will be common areas. lol.
I have to disagree with a comment in the article. To say 99% of Witnesses would be horrified by an elder saying non-Witnesses who are killed pre-Armageddon are being done a favor, that is not my experience. I think that percentage would be much, much lower. Although I never heard it specifically worded that way, and I’m not sure if I ever heard it from the platform or not, I did hear Witnesses mention many times about non-Witnesses who died and that it was good so they could be resurrected and not die at Armageddon.
I recall a talk I once listened to by the late Daniel Sydlik, who was on the Governing Body. He was talking about his disdain for New York City. He said the solution to NYC was for God to open up the earth and swallow them all. The audience cheered at that. Even though I was thoroughly indoctrinated and Sydlik was my favorite speaker, I found that whole thing to be deeply disturbing. That a GB member would say something like that and that the whole audience would applaud… So to say 99% of Witnesses would be appalled by the kind of talk you mentioned, and that the elder would be removed from the stage and from speaking… I wish that were true, but I don’t think it is.
I believe I have that talk on CD. Along with a bunch of others including Losch saying that a blizzard is no excuse for missing meetings because in Austria they would walk in the snow all the time.
…& fight crocodiles, & swim across raging rivers, & climb mountains, & cross deserts, fight zombies, slay vampires, wrestle werewolves, etc, etc, etc RFLMAO
Thanks for another interesting article. Armageddon is an amazing subject especially to an ex-Jehovah’s Witness like myself. It was the talk of Armageddon that actually got me intrigued as I had read it in the Bible but my church never talked about it. The Witnesses talked openly about it.
Their attitude though I realise now was wrong. As Witnesses we could not wait for Armageddon just like in these awful artist impressions of it, that their literature was full of. I have since read in Amos 5:18 says :
“Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”
In other words it is not something God finds any delight in and neither should anybody as it is a very sad day to experience according to the Bible. I still believe in Armageddon and that Jesus will return to do God’s will. Some here have lost their faith because of Watchtower’s bad behavior. Don’t forget about bible reading, but not from the New World Translation or the Silver Sword. Get a new Bible and realise there is a world out there that has not been copyrighted by the Watchtower, and restore your faith and learn to love Jesus and His Father again.
I am doing my best to keep faith in God… I can’t even say Jehovah any more. I just feel so cheated and lied to by the Borg. I feel my world has been poisoned by them. It makes me sick. an elder contacted me via text the other day asking if they could ‘pop over to encourage me’…. like hell will I let them come. Last time the ‘encouraged’ me, they waited until just before they left and then asked how I could justify going to my df’d son’s wedding. I told him this time I was not in the mood to talk to them. He said ‘ok but we are here when you need us’….
Good on you Tara. They’ll go away soon when they find out they are not getting anywhere with you.
‘can’t even say Jehovah anymore’. Then do not worry, it is part of your breaking free.
The WT doctrine has emphasized ‘God’s Name’ in order to detract from the more important focus to be on Jesus Christ.
In HIS name every knee should bend!
I bumped in to an Elder a while ago and we were chatting, he obviously didn’t realise that I had faded years ago. He was telling me about his neighbor and a dispute he was having with him. He said his neighbor was making his life hell, but he was looking forward to Armageddon, he will be looking over his fence and laughing at his neighbor as he is being destroyed!
I started questioning my belief in the JW’s when I started contracting to junior schools. I remember thinking all of these innocent children will be destroyed at Armageddon through no fault of their own, but because their parents had not become JW’s. Then thinking about how many people I met in feild service that would say I have my own religion thank you, that is what I would say to Mormons when they came to my door. These people were doomed to an imminent death, but they were good Christian people leading the best life they could, it just didn’t add up to me.
What a horrible cult. I was one of the children with my 2 brothers that lived our childhood terrified of thunderstorms, demons and many other cult false teachings. We all got out except our mother who is still, after 60 years a Witness, is waiting on mass destruction of all non JW’s at Armageddon.
This months broadcasting mentioning brother Travis brooks is interesting. I know Travis and i served with in Bethel he is still here serving but will be reassigned soon.Small world.
A very well written article. During my awakening I read Jesus words without allowing myself to be influenced by Watchtower teachings. After 40+ years of indoctrination that wasn’t easy. But if I wanted Bible truth I had to stick with just the Bible. I read Matthew 24 with great interest because so many teachings are based on Jesus words to his apostles in that chapter. I decided I could no longer call Jesus a liar. I determined that when he used the word “all” (Matt. 28) he meant all and in Matt. 24 when he said “this” he meant the generation of people that included his disciples. If Matthew 24 was inclusive of the first century Christians, then the logic is that certain events were to unfold within that generations timeframe. This would include the battle of Armageddon. It was for the destruction of the Jewish system of things in harmony with Jesus words “your house is abandoned to you”. Anyone who obeyed Jesus words to get out of the city would be saved. It wasn’t a kill everyone war. People had a choice. But the Watchtower can not teach that because then everyone would know the F&DS was also first century. Now these conclusions would mean Revelation would have been written pre-70. We do not know the actual date of writing. Tradition says between 96-98 C.E. and the Watchtower Society has accepted that tradition of men, which of course is in their best interests to support their teachings. I realize probably not many would share my conclusions but they are offered in support of your writing that Armageddon is not how the Watchtower teaches. There is a scripture that says when there is a turning to Jehovah the veil is removed. In other words you get a clearer understanding of the scriptures. That is the last thing the Watchtower Society wants anyone to do. That’s why they insist that they are the only channel for spiritual food.
Looking forward to more of your articles.
Regards
@eyes opened
Applying the prophecies in Revelation to the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 C.E. clears up a lot of issues with the book. This application is much easier to accept than the idea that the writings vaguely apply some two millennia after they were written.
WS
@eyes opened
Another viewpoint regarding the book of Revelation is that the writer of Revelation was writing from his own experience and perspective – he was writing about the fall of the Roman Empire and that God would re-create a New Jerusalem out of its ruins. The book of Revelation is therefore not considered to be prophetic of mankind’s future.
See
http://valerietarico.com/2009/07/08/the-book-of-revelation-prophecies-hallucinations-or-history/
Well this thread is all over the map, so I’ll throw in my 2 cents.
I don’t have a problem with a wrathful God. Whatever he creates, he can destroy. Killing an entire population is within his authority. I don’t call it “genocide.” If people don’t respect his law and direction, that’s their problem.
I believe the flood happened like the Bible says. How did it cover Mt. Everest? Mt. Everest was not as tall before the flood. The floodwaters, God’s spirit, and resulting rapid tectonic plate shifts made earth’s geography what it is today. Look at a globe. 70% of earth’s surface is covered with oceans. Those ARE the floodwaters that drained off to leave dry land.
So if God killed an entire population in the flood, and he says he will do it again with “fire,” I believe it. I do not question his motives or methods. It’s my individual responsibility to respect his law and avoid his wrath. He is God; he does what he pleases.
Watchtower has been wrong about the date, but that does not mean it won’t happen. The Bible says it will, and I believe it.
There is a problem with this belief that there is going to be a sort of second flood, a worldwide annihilation of mankind, whether by fire or by any other means. First, God himself said after the flood: “Never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done.” (Genesis 8:21) Second, if you read the context of 2 Peter 3:5-12, you see Peter was not calling for a worldwide extermination of everyone who did not follow the apostles’ teachings, or even all non-Christians. Chapter 2 talks about false teachers in the congregation who would take advantage of the flock. And after mentioning the flood and destruction of ungodly men, Peter says: “Be on your guard that you may not be led away with them.” (3:17) Even the Watchtower acknowledges that “them” means “false teachers within the Christian congregation.” (w2010 7/15 p 7 par 13) But they fail to take it to its logical conclusion, that 2 Peter 3:5-12 is really just referring to a removal of “the ungodly men” from the Christian congregation. (3:7) There is not going to be any earth-wide destruction of so-called “worldly people.”
Though Genesis 8:21 says “just as I have done,” 9:11 explains what that means: never again by a flood.
The only problem I see, is people trying to soothe their fear of destruction, by arguing that it won’t happen. But that’s silly. You’re going to die anyway. It’s only a question of when and how.
Once again, 2 Peter 2:1,2 talks about “false teachers among the people.” Verse 3 mentions their “destruction.” Verses 4-5 compares this destruction of the “false teachers” to the flood of Noah.
Jude 4 mentions these same ones, “certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men.” Verse 6 compares their judgment to that of the angels in Noah’s day.
When Jesus talked about the flood in Matthew 24:37-39, and warned “your Lord is coming,” he then went on to explain what that “coming” would entail: Judgment between a faithful slave and an evil slave (slaves of Jesus), an evil slave who ‘beats his fellow slaves’.
The references in the Bible to a “second flood” are specific to those within the Christian congregation who take advantage of or abuse their fellow Christians. They are NOT in reference to some global destruction of all non-Witnesses (or non-Any Other Religion).
And yes I am going to “die anyway.” We all are someday. I’ve made my peace with that and am living a happy life free of brainwashing and self-righteousness. You should try it sometime.
@simon kestrel
Whilst it is true that we are all going to die, that does not therefore mean that there is no quantitive difference between, for example dying of old age by natural causes, and being butchered in you prime by a violent criminal or an angry deity.
I submit to you that a man on trial for murder would not do well in his defence if he stated “we are all going to die anyway, so what does it matter that I killed someone.”
Do you agree with that?
If you live 20 years or 80 years, either way you end up dead. Sixty years difference is less than a drop in the bucket of eternity.
God is not on trial. His destructive acts are not comparable to human misdeeds. He has the authority to destroy human life. The essence of our disagreement is that people reject that authority, so they deny it exists.
I don’t think either of us can persuade the other, so I hope we can agree to disagree.
@ Simon Kestrel
If God were to once again carry out a mass slaughter of mankind at Armageddon then he he is not a man of his word.
God made an UNCONDITIONAL covenant with Noah that he will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood: Genesis 9:9-17
(I am not endorsing whether or not the flood was a historical fact, I am just using the information provided by the Bible to make a point).
As the record in Genesis shows no conditions were laid down by god when he made this covenant with Noah, so the covenant was UNCONDITIONAL – that is, God promised to keep this covenant, regardless of what man would subsequently do, regardless of whether man would subsequently continue to sin. It is a covenant not only between God and Noah, but between God and every living creature (Genesis 9:9-10, 16). It is an “everlasting covenant,” between God and Noah, and every generation after him (Genesis 9:12). It is God’s promise that He will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood (Genesis 9:11).
I must admit however, that I haven’t seen any rainbows lately so maybe God has changed his mind.
Right, never again by a flood.
But consider King Ahaziah and Elijah, a serious example of failure to respect God and his prophet (2 Kings 1).
Destruction by fire, not water.
So mass slaughter by fire is OK but mass slaughter by flood is not………strange god.
Hi Jarred,
You make excellent points. Peter’s words would certainly fit in with the destruction of Jerusalem. While we learn many things from the Greek scriptures, especially how to live a good and peaceful life, those words were written first to the first century christians and that is where we would see primary fulfilment.
Regards
@Simon Kestrel
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter. :)
Can I ask, you state that a wrathful God can do whatever he wants with human life since he created it.
My question is, why would you want to serve a God like that?
If his creation appears to have a keener sense of justice and empathy than he does, then does that not raise some worrying questions about his nature?
Not attacking you, just genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this.
I don’t agree that humans “have a keener sense of justice and empathy” than God. Humans kill millions of unborn babies every year. Abortion, murder, war, etc. At some point, God must step in and stop the killing. We can’t stop it ourselves.
As for “serving” God, that’s a human notion. God does not need servants. He does not need ANYTHING from people, not even love.
Loving God is the greatest commandment, and Jesus said love in this context means to obey. However, God does not need that from us either. He does not need our worship, he does not need our obedience, he does not need our love.
God tells us to obey for OUR benefit, not his.
So obeying God is for my own prosperity and self interest. I don’t feel like a servant at all.
But can you not see the flaw in your logic? “Because some people kill other people, God must therefore kill almost everyone, including the vast majority of human beings who have never killed anyone?”
Does that not strike you as a rather sloppy solution? To go back to my example, how does killing a MSF medic who dedicated their life to helping their fellow man make the world a better place?
You call it a sloppy solution but you (humans) can’t solve the problem. With thousands of years to find a solution, human failure is complete.
Sparing millions of humans who have never murdered assumes that murder is the only capital crime. But God decides who lives and who dies. He gives life, and he can revoke it.
Humans use logic to program computers that let us talk at great distances. But arguing logic with God is futile. Humans do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the timeless nature of God. We’re like dogs watching a mathematics professor write calculus on the blackboard. We can bark all we want, but we’ll never understand the calculus of God. We simply don’t have the brainpower for it.
I accept these limitations and defer the weighty decisions of life and death to God.
Simon,
History has shown us that humans are improving, not getting worse. Would you prefer to live back in the dark ages? If human nature is getting worse, those times must have been better, but I am sure you would agree such a conclusion is not correct. Did you know that statistically there are less murders than 100 years ago? Humans are capable of making this improvement because they are created in “God’s image” and his creation is “very good.” It is faulty theology that says humanity is bad and getting worse.
I agree with your statement that humans lack the intellectual capacity to understand God. Thus this idea of God planning to destroy 99% of all humankind indiscriminately is a product of faulty human reasoning.
WS
Simon,
Unfortunately, the facts of geology & archaeology do not support a global deluge having occurred in the last 10,000 years. Either the timing of the event in scripture is way off (doubtful) or the event was not global, but rather isolated to a specific area (more likely). Think about it, if everyone at the time lived around the area of the Middle East, why was a global deluge even necessary?
WS
Mathematics is the only pure science. Studies in other fields are subject to interpretation, dispute, and error. Geological “evidence” against a global flood of 4,000 years ago is mere extrapolation, and unverifiable.
Either you believe or you don’t. It’s a question of whom to trust. To me, God is more real than any geologist. They will all die. God will live forever.
I dismiss their “science” as error. Time will reveal the truth, and eternity favors my view.
Scientists are not unanimous in denial of the Bible. John Lennox is a pure scientist who believes. He’s a great thinker and lecturer. William Dembski’s lectures on information theory and materialism are good too.
Simon,
“Mathematics is the only pure science.”
Interesting statement. There is a question among scientists and mathematicians: is math a human invention or a discovery. A great book on the topic that I can recommend: “Is God a Mathematician?” By Mario Livio.
As a deist, I believe that God exists and we each can get to know the Creator by studying the creation. Holy books, like the Bible, are mankind’s attempts to understand the Creator, but they are just that: human reasoning. I think there are some very great and profound reasonings in the Bible as well as some very poor ones (Moses command to slaughter Canaanite children comes to mind).
One scripture that I think is quite profound is Acts 17:27 “He did this so they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.” The point being that the Creator is accessible to all and wants to be found. The sciences of geology, archeology, cosmology, etc. bring us closer to knowing God. Because what they reveal is at odds with a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible does not make them false. When you look at many of the tales in scripture for the allegorical value, it does not matter if they do not agree with hard science.
You say you dismiss the work of a single geologist. But there are thousands of scientists that have been building a body of knowledge for the past 4 centuries and when you add up the sum total of their work you have tens of thousands of years of experience. Have errors been made along the way? Sure. But the beauty of science is that it is self correcting. Religion is not self correcting. It is self insistent: there is no room for improvement or discovery. Accept it or else. Religion has not cured any diseases or helped to produce more food or to provide clean water. It has been the cause of many wars and many injurious actions towards our fellow humans. This is why I reject religion. But I do not reject spirituality nor do I reject God.
WS
@ Covert Fade: Love the reasoning, Love the style but could you change your Profile picture…can’t quite make out what it is…but it gives me the creeps. Is it a Gargol?
How about using a picture of an awakening Man with outstretched arms and a big, big, smile?
Great delivery. Slaughter, isn’t pretty….I find it hard to accept a god that would approve of mass slaughter of otherwise innocent people, especially when whole populations have yet to be reached with the “Truth”.
Further, has anybody ever considered that Armageddon may just be directed to 1/3 of the System…that System that has received “a witness”… the realm controlled by Christendom? Why would a loving god slaughter those who have not even had the opportunity to hear?….
As
Hi there :)
My profile pic is actually a robotic cat, smirking at the camera. I’ve never thought of it as creepy before, but enough people find it off-putting, I’ll see if I can find another avatar. Can be tricky sometimes to find a pic that expresses your personality online. A sarcastic smirking cat is actually quite consistent with my personality, but like I said, it it’s freaking enough people out I might consider a change :)
I think it’s fine. Hasn’t given me any nightmares. I’m a big boy. ;)
I thought it was something like a black panther, & that’s pretty cool!
PS No offence to anyone, but I would think, after years of oppression & psychological abuse in WT, as well as nightmare scenarios like Armageddon with associated imagery as seen above, folks would be able to handle a slightly-scary profile pic smaller than a postage stamp. lol Seriously, c’mon folks, there are bigger issues at stake.
When I was a tender youth my mum took me to London to visit her friend. We were travelling on the underground railway in rush hour and I had a panic attack. I was around 10 and I thought all these people are going to die and I felt terrified and very tearful. In that crowd a brother came along and was whistling a kingdom tune and I didn’t speak to him because he was gone in the crowd. That was a faith defining moment as a naïve child that is still with me. Now i’m old and disillusioned I conclude it was a coincidence and a chance encounter. I do not think god will kill all those I saw in the subway all those years ago because they will probably be dead with old age as all this time has passed. So according to jw speak they have their ticket and will be resurrected soon, soon ,soon and I did not need to panic. hummm what about the 8 billion today , well that’s a thorny problem. ruthlee
@Simon Kestrel
Your ultimate position appears to be “when it comes to God’s will there is no point using logic, reason or compassion. We must just blindly do whatever the Watchtower says the Bible says we should do.” Have I understood you correctly?
Therefore, can I ask, if God appeared before you, and commanded you to kill every newborn baby within six miles of you, would you do it?
Not exactly. I no longer follow the Watchtower. I do trust the Bible, God, and Christ though.
God may kill newborns at Armageddon, but I doubt he will ask for my help. Hypothetical dilemmas do not trouble me.
As I said, I was just throwing in my 2 cents. It was not meant to offend. You did a fine job with your article, I just wanted to express a different view.
Simon – Just a couple of cents from me.
I cannot reconcile a God of love killing innocent children, or adults for that matter.
The Scriptures give a clear understanding of who is in the firing line – Rev.21:8 ‘But cowards, those who refuse to believe, who do evil things, who kill, who sin sexually, who do evil magic, who worship idols, and who tell lies – all these will have a place in the lake of burning sulphur.’ (The expanded Bible).
Looks like the GB has got it coming!