Shunning.
The refusal of blood transfusions.
The deliberate refusal to report child abuse to the authorities.
These are probably the three most harmful practices that the Watchtower organisation is guilty of. The Unholy Trinity, if you will.
Granted, there are many more problems in Watchtower, but few are of quite the same magnitude. Telling people they can’t wear tight pants? Stupid but not something that warrants an FBI investigation. Not turning a known child abuser over to law enforcement as a matter of policy, however? That’s something the FBI should be very interested in.
These three things: shunning, blood, and child abuse, are the ones that most activists feel warrant a Governmental response due to the massive level of emotional and physical harm they can inflict, up to and including the loss of life.
I completely agree with them.
But should that legal response be a ban on the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Some would say so, and on the surface this might seem sensible. After all, things that are very harmful should automatically be illegal, right?
Well not always.
History has many examples of things that are harmful becoming even more so when placed under ban; take a look at Prohibition America. Or take another example: cheating on a spouse is clearly harmful, and unethical, but most people would not want the Government to imprison you for it, and would be terrified of a Government that wanted the power do so.
The most obvious answers to problems are not always the right ones, and the recent actions by the Russian Government, which looks set to ban the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, are sadly just going to make a bad situation worse.
Why do I say this? As someone who is very aware of the awful damage Watchtower’s teachings can inflict, and who agrees that something urgent needs to be done at the Governmental and legal level, why on earth would I oppose a ban?
For two reasons.
Firstly such a ban is deeply unethical, for reasons well articulated by JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans here,
Secondly it won’t work. In fact, it will actively make worse the very issues that cause most people to want the religion banned.
I recognise that some who read this article will not agree with me on this, and so I am going to present a detailed argument to showcase why I have arrived at this conclusion. It’s my hope that by the end I will have convinced you, or at the very least you will better understand my position and that this will enable discussion going forward.
Banning belief does not stop belief.
Lets begin with the obvious. If Jehovah’s Witnesses are banned, they don’t suddenly stop being Jehovah’s Witnesses. This might seem like an obvious point to make but it rests at the very core of understanding why a ban will fail in the real world:
Just because people are no longer allowed to believe a thing does not mean that they will stop believing that thing.
History teaches us this time and time again. Indeed, one can look at the Witnesses themselves for proof. This group has been repeatedly subject to bans in the past, and continues to be banned in a number of countries today. Has this ban resulted in the cessation of Witness activity in these places?
Of course not.
Rather, we see that Witnesses still believe what they believe. Historically they have even chosen to undergo horrific abuse and persecution, up to and including torture and execution, rather than renounce their faith after a ban. And eventually, when the ban is lifted, the JW’s are still there and are often some of the most energised and faithful JW’s on the planet.
Thus all one has to show for the weeping mountain of human torment and blood soaked misery caused by a ban is the same JW organisation, right back where it was, often stronger and more faithful than before.
So that’s the first thing to understand. Enacting a ban is not a magic “make-cult-go-away” wand. Now that we’ve established this key point, lets move on the “Unholy Trinity” and I will lay out my case for why the ban won’t stop these things but will make them even worse.
Shunning: Why a ban will make it worse.
As we have discussed, banning a belief does not stop people believing it. Thus, Witnesses who believed in shunning before the ban will also believe in shunning after the ban. In fact, it will get worse.
Why?
Because now, for a JW, cutting off and avoiding those who leave the faith isn’t just a matter of their spiritual life and death. It’s a matter of their physical life and death as well, and the life and death of the fellow Witnesses around them.
Imagine that you are a JW, part of this forbidden group. Your congregation has gone to ground, your worship, your study, your preaching work is done in secret. If the details or even the existence of any of this got out, you risk arrest and imprisonment. Now, ask yourself:
If you were a JW, are you more likely or less likely to associate with those you consider hostile to your faith in this situation?
If you think your JW family is shunning you now, just wait until a ban hits and they vanish off the face of the Earth. Additionally, for the many faded ones who’ve struck a certain equilibrium with their JW family and still have a measure of contact, such a ban could result in even that limited contact being frozen and cut off as Witnesses begin to fear for their freedom and their lives, and become even more insular to protect their group.
Also: If you think a ban gives you some leverage to force your family to associate with you, you might want to think again. I mean, how exactly is this supposed to play out? You demand that your mother associate with you again, as her religion and its shunning policy are now illegal. She refuses as she still believes the shunning teaching, as history proves that she will.
So you call the police…and send her to prison? Or maybe get the police to force your mother at gunpoint to sit at a table with you and have a meal? I bet that’ll be a fun time.
See the problem here?
Lloyd Evans made this very point in his recent BBC interview: imprisonment is not a proportionate response to shunning.
Refusal of Blood Transfusions: Why a ban will make it worse.
Let’s be direct here: The blood teaching has cost lives across the decades and will continue to cost them for as long as non-blood alternatives remain second best in certain medical scenarios, or until Watchtower abandons its discredited blood policy, which ever comes first.
And a ban is just going to make that situation even worse.
How so?
Well, as we have said, people do not stop believing a thing just because it is banned. After a ban, Witness will still believe that it is far better to die than get a blood transfusion. After all, if you die you get resurrected in the blink of an eye to a wonderful paradise Earth full of your loved ones. If you take blood, no paradise for you (and possibly no friends or family in this old world either as the shunning takes affect.)
So how will this play out under ban? Well, JW’s now know that if they go to hospital and refuse blood, they have instantly identified themselves as part of a banned religion. Remember, membership of a banned religion is illegal. So what will happen is firstly that they will be probably be given blood against their will (governments that don’t respect freedom of religion usually also fail to respect a person’s rights to decide their own medical treatment) and then they risk being handed over to the police for interrogation and possibly prison.
If you are a JW who belives that death is the doorway to paradise, are you more or less likely to seek out medical help in this situation?
After all, if you die, you get resurrected in the blink of an eye to a wonderful paradise Earth full of all your loved ones, free from this nightmare world that wants to imprison you alongside rapists and killers. Sadly, one can even imagine that ones might be pressured into this by the JW community, who fear that a hospitalised and interrogated JW might give up others in the congregation.
A ban isn’t going to save lives. It’s going to cost them. That’s before we even touch on the issue of JW’s who might die in police custody, or be beaten or stabbed to death in prison.
Not reporting Child Abuse: Why a ban will make it worse.
The findings of The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse make for gruesome reading. The Commission found that since the 1950’s Watchtower, as a matter of explicit policy, has not reported over 1006 child abusers in its congregations to the police.
Full details can be reviewed here but essentially the ARC found that Watchtower would take no internal action over an accusation of child abuse unless there were two witnesses to the abuse, and even if internal disciplinary action over the abuse did take place, the Watchtower organisation would not report the abuser to the police unless legally required to do so by law.
Sounds like a quick ban on the religion will sort this one out right?
Nope.
It will make it worse.
Firstly, as any former Jehovah’s Witness knows, and as was confirmed during the ARC hearings, Watchtower fosters in the Witness community a distrust of secular authorities. In fact, this was cited as one of the reasons as to why the Witnesses (in some cases even the victims themselves) seemed reluctant to involve law enforcement in the instances of child sex abuse. Keep in mind that the JW culture studied at the ARC existed in a liberal democracy where the police existed to protect and serve the public, and by extension the Witnesses.
Imagine what will happen when the police no longer protect and serve, but hunt and arrest JW’s as a matter of policy.
For Witnesses under a ban, the police and state become the enemy. They no longer protect and serve, they are no longer a safe haven. They arrest and imprison. Witnesses who are already wary of approaching the police will be even less inclined to do so. An abuse victim now knows that his or her going to the police might expose many Witnesses that they still love who were not part of the abuse. The victim themselves might still believe the religion is true, and not want to harm it by contacting authorities who are directly opposed.
How much better to not seek one’s own advantage but the advantage of others.
And how much better to wait on Jehovah and let him resolve matters.
Additionally consider the leverage that this gives a molester. The elders now know that if they take any action against him, his response could be to go right to the police, tell them that he has escaped the banned religious cult known as Jehovah’s Witnesses, but can give them the names and locations of many active members.
Do you think elders are more or less likely to take effective action against abusers in this situation, especially in situations where they have only one witnesses and an element of doubt in their mind? And are the elders more or less likely in this situation to apply pressure to the survivor to let them handle things in-house, and not bring in the jackbooted police-thugs of Satan’s world?
Support solutions that work.
At the end of the day, the simple fact is that if you are concerned about the worst abusive practices of Watchtower, you will want solutions that effectively tackle them, not solutions that will make them worse.
Bans make these abuses worse.
There are solutions that can tackle these abuses effectively. Take for example the issue of Watchtower failing to report child abuse. Governments should introduce mandatory abuse reporting laws, and then criminally prosecute any elders who ignore those laws and those in the Watchtower hierarchy who instructed them to do so. This would either force Watchtower to report each accusation to the police, or if they refused would decimate Watchtower’s power structure and hold the Governing Body directly to account. It would also directly target those involved in covering up the abuse without needing to destroy the lives of the 90% of Witnesses who don’t even know the child abuse issue exists, let alone the details of the two witness rule.
Or take for example, the policy of shunning. We’ve discussed how one cannot “ban” shunning in any real sense, unless you want your relatives to eat with you at gunpoint, but Watchtower can certainly be stripped of any charitable status and tax breaks unless it agrees to renounce the policy. The resulting financial blow would be crippling to the organisation, pressuring them to either relax the shunning policy or to vastly hasten their own financial meltdown if they refuse.
Targeted solutions can make a genuine difference. Bans will just create even more misery.
I’ve not even touched here on the issue of how Watchtower membership numbers rot away in the free world but tend to hold steady under ban.
I’ve not even touched here on how bans make it far harder for JW’s to wake up and leave, or how they effectively trap the young born-in’s within the mental walls of a cult under siege, whilst doing very little to stop the organisation preying on the weak and vulnerable with covert informal witnessing.
And I’ve not even touched on how Governments that ban JW’s tend also to be the Governments that rack up human rights abuses on the rest of the population as well. The price of removing the human rights from one group is often watching those same rights get ripped away from everyone else.
In fact, I’d like to end on that point, with a poem written by German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller. It was written to reflect events that took place in Germany’s Third Reich, and highlights the dangers of passively accepting (or even welcoming) the persecution and abuse of groups other than your own by the Government.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
This poem is inscribed on the United States Holocaust Memorial in Washington.
I urge you to learn from history.
Follow me on twitter @covertfade
Follow JW Survey on Twitter @jwsurveyorg
If Russia succeeds to ban the cult, they will win in long term. People with high IQ tormented by religion and cults based on Bible will maybe find refuge there.
Remember, Europeans who were persecuted over Bible fled to America and Built it.
Who wants to leave among feeble-minded people? This is what you can read from their Publications:
“The turning point for me came in 1968. One day I began to read an article in The Watchtower that described the brutal persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Malawi. It told of a 15-year-old girl who was tied to a tree and raped six times because she refused to compromise her faith. Deeply shocked, I dropped the magazine, but I kept thinking about it. I realized that no girl in my church would show that sort of faith.” (See w97 1/1 p. 24)!
Can such people built strong nations? Now Russia is the ONLY ONE INDEPENDENT country in the world: http://beta.foreignassistance.gov/explore . The rest are “Democracy” singers!
@Jado,
I love that prophecy. You have just put in enough uncertainty of meaning to allow for multiple interpretations and thus complex discussion among followers. What can beat this statement?:
“If Russia succeeds to ban the cult, they will win in long term. People with high IQ tormented by religion and cults based on Bible will maybe find refuge there.”
And then the way you were able to subtly bring in the connection to sexual behaviour was masterful.
And to top it all off, it was a reference from jw.org.
I don’t know what the meaning is, but as prophecies go, this one was magnificent. Reminds me of the works of Confusis.
@Silas Thompson, you keep bringing up the King of the North. What does that have to do with anything except it’s in the Bible?
You can take any book and make the “prophecies” vague like what the Bible does and if you see something that resembles whatever it is talking about, you can say “see that is fulfillment of prophecy”.
To be a true prophet, it has to be specific like naming who the King of the North actually is BEFORE” it happens. To have a book that tells about something that is going to happen in the future can’t be wrong either in anything if it actually is from a perfect god who authored it.
Silas do you know anything about the book of Revelation and how it got into the Bible? Do you know who it was that decided what was to be in the “inspired” word of God in the first place? It was the Catholic Church in the 4th century. Did you know that the name Jehovah comes from a Catholic monk in the 13th century A.D. and it was never in the Bible in the first place and so Jehovah’s Witnesses are lying when they say that they “restored” God’s name into the Bible. Do you ever say that as a fact because if you do, you are telling a lie.
Silas do you know that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 B.C.E. but in 586/587 B.C.E. and the Society knows it is lying about that to you and if you go to any enclyclopedia and find that out for yourself and tell anybody what you found out that you will be disfellowshiped for apostasy?
Should anybody be afraid to examine their own religion? I don’t think so and this is what the book “Keep Yourselves in God’s Love” printed by the Society on page 161 in chapter 14 “Be Honest in All Things” about lying:
“Dishonesty is an insidious weakness, and we need to view it as our heavenly Father does. Proverbs 3:32 says: “The devious person is a detestable thing to Jehovah, but His intimacy is with the upright ones.”
I was lucky to join “other sheep” after being an “Adventist of the 7th Day” and I could see how prophesies are plans, in my opinion, of people who want to destabilize this beautiful planet.
WTS teaches that the UN is a beast (I Cannot remember which beast) but SDA never teach that.
When it comes to number “666”: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bmdhJJTaCWM/hqdefault.jpg you ask yourself “How can civilized nations tolerate this?”! It is really a shame on the shoulder of all humankind.
Right about the name Jehovah Caroline. It also went through many iterations over many centuries before arriving at the name we now know. Many people created variations of that name before the actual Jehovah was accepted.
The writers of the Hebrew language did not write vowels. The correct vowels and their placements were inferred by dots placed on consonants. Evidently the dots stopped being placed on the tetragrammaton consonants. So later Catholics began to take vowel sounds from the Hebrew words Elohim and Adonai, and insert those vowel sounds into God’s Hebrew name, as it was then written. No one knows the real name, because no one knows the original vowel sounds that were used.
@Messenger,
Just a thought. We also don’t know how Jesus’ name was pronounced in Hebrew. Was it Yahoshua, Yehoshua or Yeshua? It doesn’t matter, because we are speaking English. In Greek it is Iesous. In Latin it is Iesus.
If we transliterated Jesus’ Hebrew name straight to English we would get a different result than if we transliterated it from Hebrew to Greek to Latin and then to English. Compare ‘Yehoshua’ to ‘Jesus’. And yet we didn’t need to know how to pronounce Jesus’ Hebrew name to get to his recognised and accepted name in English, which is ‘Jesus’.
So too we don’t need to know how God’s name was pronounced in Hebrew to get to his accepted and recognized English name. However, if we transliterate straight from Hebrew to English we will get a different result than if we transliterate from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English.
Can you see the similarities in translating both the name of Jesus and the name Jehovah? How Jesus’ name in Hebrew is pronounced we are not sure. But we accept the Hebrew>Greek>Latin>English version: Jesus.
How Jehovah’s name is pronounced in Hebrew we don’t know. But if we accept the ‘Je’ in ‘Jesus’ in English, and the name ‘Jesus’ comes from God’s name, meaning ‘Jehovah is salvation’, then in English God’s name should start with ‘Je’, as do other names in the Bible based on God’s name such as Jehonadab, Jehoshaphat and Jehu. Thus Yahweh or Yehoweh (noone knows which Hebrew>English version is correct) does not fit. The name must start with ‘Je’.
‘Jehovah’ is definitely not the way the Hebrews called their God. But ‘Jesus’ was not the way they called His son, either.
Just as ‘Jesus’ is the accepted English form which has been used since 1630 (before that ‘J’ was not used much, and his name was accepted as ‘Yesus’), so ‘Jehovah’ is the accepted English name for God used for the same length of time as ‘Jesus’. ‘Jehovah’ has been in general use in English literature for centuries.
So, if we are not going to accept ‘Jehovah’, how can we honestly then accept ‘Jesus’?
You don’t know the Messiah’s name and you don’t the Father’s name, really!?
We know for certain Jesus and Jehovah are incorrect names made up by translating traditions of men.
How about this, proper nouns aren’t translated! You don’t speak a lick of Japanese, but you have no problem saying Toyota, Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki here in America. Would it be righteous to call George Bush Jorge Arbusto even though they mean the same thing in two different languages? Of course not! This is what translators have done, and you accept it.
You don’t know the Messiah’s name and you don’t the Father’s name, really!?
We know for certain Jesus and Jehovah are incorrect names made up by translating traditions of men.
How about this, proper nouns aren’t translated! You don’t speak a lick of Japanese, but you have no problem saying Toyota, Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki here in America. Would it be righteous to call George Bush Jorge Arbusto even though they mean the same thing in two different languages? Of course not! This is what translators have done, and you accept it.
@Lonnie,
If I started talking to you about characters in the Bible using their Hebrew names (let me try that in one language I know: Ayub, Maleakhi, Hawa and Salomo) would you know I was talking about Job, Malachi, Eve and Solomon?
If then we don’t use the names of Bible characters that people understand, how does anyone know who we are talking about? What then is the point of talking?
In fact, what is the point of your comment?
Ricardo,
The pronouncing of God’s name is not what’s in question, the name itself is what’s in question. Peoples’ focus on pronunciation ignores the facts vowels are unknown and so obscures the real issue. All we know for sure about it is it has consonant sounds similar to some of ours. The vowels are not known, having been taken from the Hebrew words Elohim, and Adonai and inserted in. I never heard Jesus ancient name had that same problem. In fact it could not have since it was not written in Hebrew, but in Greek inside the Bible.
If we knew the vowels inserted inside the tet, then your claim would have validity. Take your pick from a, e, I, o, and u sounds and insert them between consonants, and the possibilities become many. Your point about the first vowel being “e” may be correct. Who knows, and what about the other vowels? What are they, and where do they go? Other Hebrew words had dots to denote, the tet did not. Unless the decision was somehow providentially made, then fat chance the inserted letters were correct.
messenger, if you look up Jehovah in any of the JW publications all you will see is how to pronounce the name Jehovah or Yahweh. That is not any description of god.
Can you come up with any description of Jehovah other than his name? I can come up with hundreds of Bible scriptures that describe Jehovah and only one that says that Jehovah is “love”.
Figuring out how to say any god’s name is immaterial if you can’t describe that invisible god other than he is love.
What does it matter how that name is described except that JW’s lie when they are told and repeat the lie that they have “restored” the name of God (Jehovah) in the Bible.
That name was never in the Bible as the name of the “creator” and it was especially never in the Greek Scriptures but there’s plenty of descriptions of the Bible tetragrammaton god though, and they are mostly describing a volcano/wind/rain/storm god who incited the Hebrews to slaughter millions of men, women and children and that is the god that you worship. You seem to think that because I use the Bible to describe the god of the Hebrew scriptures that way, that you need to come on here and defend the Bible/Jesus and you don’t need to do that.
I personally feel (as Marcion did in the 4thd century A.D.) that the Bible is describing two different Gods, one in the Hebrew Scriptures and one in the Greek Scriptures.
It was Constantine who decided that Jehovah and Jesus was the same god (the trinity for forced the people into that religion of the Roman Empire called the Holy Roman Empire and the orthodox (correct) religion was the Catholic religion.
Up until that time, those people couldn’t really decide if Yahweh was the creator and Jesus was created by Yahweh or what. Marcion taught and believed almost the same as Watchtower does so Watchtower is late to the ship when it comes to that teaching.
Marcion’s teachings were considered heretical and that is why most people were forced to believe in the trinity instead.
Left to their own, most people would have probably thought Yahweh was the creator and Jesus was created by Yahweh but my point is that Marcion thought that the god of the Hebrew scriptures was bad and the god of the Greek Scriptures was good.
I am with Marcion and Watchtower is with the Catholic Church even if they won’t admit it when they decided to name themselves after the god of the Hebrew Scriptures because the Catholic Church decided that Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same god.
The only difference is that JW’s believe that Jehovah created Jesus first which makes no sense because if that was true then the beginning of Genesis should read “and Jesus created the heavens and the earth” instead of God creating the heavens and the earth.
I didn’t read all your comment call Caroline. But I’m not arguing that name is in the Bible. I know it wasn’t, instead something was in there that people in our day call Jehovah. And I know in the oldest docs the tetragrammaton is not found in the Greek scriptures.
But I believe the whole Bible describes who the god we call Jehovah is.
Better to go straight to the source than to research what someone says about it, if that’s possible. People have all sorts of strange ideas, in the 4th century and now. Christ was a Jew and practicer of the Jewish religion. His statements recorded in the New Testament prove he sided with the God of the Old Testament whose name was the Tet. Marcion’s view then doesn’t agree with Christ’s. That veiw would not prove Christ good either, if he sided with a corrupt god. Christ didn’t view the tet god as corrupt. To me its obvious they work together as Christ said.
I refer to Christ more than Jehovah because Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t fully know who Christ is. He is a god as the Bible teaches, is worshipped as the Bible teaches, yet JWs deny that. And they obscure how a person receives salvation. They claim Christ is more like an angel, but that’s not what scriptures say.
Remember the Devils ways are deceptive and likely to be found anywhere not just in WT. Many wrong teachings in the world, a matrix of deception.
@ dee2
What is the gospel, and what is grace that is referred to in the synoptic gospels? Why are those even called gospels?
@Silas Thompson,
I read Daniel 11 and this is what I noted:
1. There is no place in history for “Darius the Mede” – the dude is unknown to history.
2. There is no mention of Germany or the USSR in Daniel 11. The countries/places mentioned in Daniel 11 are as follows:
– The king of the north, that is, the king of the country physically/geographically located north of Judea: identified by the actual events of history as the Seleucids of Syria in particular, the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes
– The king of the south, that is, the king of the country physically/geographically located south of Judea: identified by the actual events of history as the Ptolemies of Egypt
– Persia
– Greece
– Egypt
– the Beautiful Land
– the beautiful holy mountain
– the coastlands
– Edom
– Moab
– Ammon
The peoples mentioned are as follows:
– the Libyans
– the Cushites
3. Daniel 11:40-45 prophesied that Antiochus would make war once again against Egypt, and would die in Judea. This event did not happen: there was no third war and Antiochus died in Persia.
Covert, I’ve read your article and understand your points however, I have a different view: For Russia to band the JW religion out of their country IS GOOD. Let me explain. Your first point:
Will it have them stop believing? Of course not. However, as we are aware, this is not a religion, this is a cult. They prey on the weak, the lonely and the spiritually insecure. If Russia bans them from the country they will stop spreading their false doctrine and recruit more unsuspecting victims ruining many more lives. I would be devastated if I was living in Russia and I call a relative and she tells me that she found a “new religion” and is no longer allowed to speak to me (long story short). Therefore, it may not change their belief in being a JW, but it will stop them from recruiting more innocent unsuspecting victims. As you know, they are out to do the “preaching work” i.e. proselytize.
Point two: Shunning. This too is a good thing. If shunning worsens, then the one who is being shunned has that much more OPPORTUNITY of removing the “eyeglasses” that the Watchtower gave them and see a whole new world. This works well. How do I know? I married one. I was never a JW (nor will I ever be), but once my wife’s family started shunning her and she went through hell. I supported her al they way. As a Christian, I showed her what the love of Christ was truly like. Later we started a family and now that she has her own family, she is no longer tied to her family who still shuns her to this day. Update: She also has a kid brother and since the age of 6 was also told to shun her/us. 10 years later we get a text from him (now 16) that he is in the hospital for being suicidal and wants out of the WTS but his parents keep shoving it down his throat. I called his father and we got into a major verbal altercation but I convinced him that his son needs to come live with us or he’ll die. He agreed but of course, I had to pay for his flight from New York City to California, and get him a new cell phone because as soon as his feet touched California soil, that was the last we heard from his father (my father-in-law). I’ve studied this religious cult intensely and this is what I’ve learned: once one is released from it’s bond they will go either one of two ways: 1) They’ll come closer to God in a different more accurate way or 2) they will go hog wild, don’t know or don’t care what they believe in. Sometimes this is temporary, sometimes it’s permanent and they become atheists. My kid brother-in-law is going “hog wild” simply because he tasted freedom. As he gets older he’ll wise up, but for now all I can do is advise him, the rest is up to him. At least he is free. Sometimes the price of shunning, is a good price to pay.
Point three: Blood transfusions. See point one. Same thing. It may not apply to the immediate situation, but any future life saved because their is no JW influence there to corrupt a soul’s mind with these false doctrines is just that, a life saved.
Point four: Child abuse. Again, it’s unfortunate that this religious cult got away with a lot during the past 100+ years however, I believe if we “nip it at the bud” (i.e. ban it), there will be no reports of child abuse within the religion for that very reason, the religion does not exist in that country.
In a sense, I guess I do the best I can to ban the religion from my neighborhood on a much, much smaller scale. As a real estate agent, I go to certain neighborhoods door to door to solicit possible business. Because we are approaching Easter, I’ve noticed one neighborhood the JW’s hit up pretty well. I REMOVED about 9 “memorial invitations” from screen doors. Now, I truly doubt all 9 invites would of showed up however, If maybe, just maybe I removed an invite from someone who may even have thought of attending and I stopped them, my job was done.
Bottom line: I really doubt if this religion will be around for another 5 years – maybe 10 at most. “Herbert Armstrong and the Wide World Church of God” had a similar religion here in California (coincidently, he used to be a JW; go figure), with similar rules and regulations (.e. control of his members). In time, the whole thing fell apart and now there are only a few “splinter groups” that took what they believed and discarded the rest. I’m sure this will be the same fate of the WTS. All it’s millions of members will “reform” and create a “new religion.” It’s not a matter of if, but when.
@Bruno,
“I’ve studied this religious cult intensely and this is what I’ve learned: once one is released from it’s bond they will go either one of two ways………..”
Here’s point number 3 to add to your list:
3) Some begin to critically investigate the origins of Christianity and the claim that the Bible is inspired by God and to question everything. After uncovering the facts some maintain a belief in a deity but not in any Holy Books, others become atheist or agnostic.
Come on dee2 , you know that list of only “one of two ways” is incomplete. Some function inside an apostate religion, as Christ did. Many others retain belief in God and Christ as their personal (not religious group) savior. Others as you rightly state believe in God, but have essentially no idea of what he will do or who he is. This list may still not be complete, but its now more accurate than before.
Good to have you back dee2. And I hope to see you in the new world.
messenger
@dee2 You’re right, it’s a list with many options. I only chose two for specifics, time and space available. ( :
@Bruno,
You are right. I was looking at this world prostitution map: http://www.targetmap.com/ThumbnailsReports/24077_THUMB_IPAD.jpg and found that Russia is one of the country where prostitution is illegal but practiced. Banning Jehovah Witnesses will be the same, they will prey on the weak and operate under ban.
In one of their Publication you can read:
“The Russian gangs also run prostitution rings in Eastern Europe. They get away with most of their crimes scot-free. Who dares to face up to heavily armed former athletes and veterans from the Afghan war?” (See g97 3/8 p. 4).
@Jado,
I didn’t even know there was a world prostitution map. How did you find that? I doubt it was from jw.org.
It seems you are 200,000 years behind the scale of evolution. How you didn’t know there was a world prostitution map? Do you mean that you do not know that one woman (Rahab) in Jesus’ genealogy was a Prostitute? That’s why you do not know how the world is being sold, either.
From JW.ORG you fear you can read:
“Deborah and Rahab were said to foreshadow the great crowd.” (See w15 3/15 p. 17 par. 2 Online: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w15+3%2F15+p.+17+par.+2 ).
I can now see how you have failed to understand that Female Jehovah’s Witnesses are selling their families and countries through their sex drive.
The one manipulating them knows “Deborah and Rahab … foreshadow the great crowd.” which totals now more than 170,000 in Russia.
Jado, your posts are nonsense.
Point One- Preaching. Has a ban ever stopped JW’s from preaching? History teaches no. In fact, they often get far more zealous and successful in the informal work.
Point Two – Shunning. In your example, a person stopped shunning because they were shown a kinder better way, not because they were thrown into a violent Russian prison until they stopped shunning.
Point Three – Blood. Your argument again assumes JW’s vanish from society under ban and thus have no more influence. History teaches they keep going and just recruit underground. You don’t address the issues of JW’s possibly avoiding medical treatment as they know it will ID them as JW’s. You don’t address the lives that will be lost as JW’s are beaten and raped and stabbed in prison or in Russian police cells.
Point 4- Child abuse Again, you assume that a ban will make JW’s vanish. “Nipping it in the bud.” History shows that it won’t vanish. You won’t nip anything in the bud. It’s well and truly bloomed now and it’s here to stay (unless you want to round them up and shoot them. I’m sure neither of us want that) You’ve not addressed how a large JW community under siege will somehow be more open to a police investigation and not less so. They’ll still be there, it’s just that now they won’t touch law enforcement with a barge pole. Also you don’t address how a ban will make elders less likely to act against absuers if they know that abuser can go right to the cops with the details of the local congregation.
You also don’t address the fact that Governments who ban JW’s tend to be generally repressive to everyone. You don’t address the risk posed to the wider population by empowering a Government that treats religion in this way. Can you name one country that bans JW’s that isn’t pretty poor with everyone else human rights as well? Take Russia. Putin’s racking up a pretty big pile of dead journalists and political opponents at the moment, as well as stamping on the gay community and relaxing laws on wife beating. You want a guy like that choosing what religion you can have?
Good to see you jump into these debates sometimes CF. I know you spend a lot of time on research and article writing. Here’s where the real fire is though. These debates on your site are endless.
Take care CF.
messenger
Well stated Bruno. You really removed invitations to the Memorial from screen doors? Wow. Even I don’t have that kind of chutzpah!
@Bruno & CO.
I am shocked by the level of intolerance and hate found in some of the comments above. To define the JW’S as a threat from which the world needs protection?? Protection from what?
Do they come to your door with guns and point them to your head? The Russian police does.
Do they smuggle arms, drugs and hatred propaganda around the globe? Russia does.
Do they interfere with foreign politics and spy on them, hack their emails and personal phone calls? Russia does.
Do they have pedophiles running thriving online communities on the dark Web, including some of the most appalling practices and snuff movies? Russia does.
Do they trample on human rights and heavily discriminate and brutally beat gays, but happily turn a blind eye on prostitution and violence on women? Russia does.
Do they have a huge problem with alcoholism and domestic abuse which cause the deaths of thousand of people every year? Russia does.
If you ban the witnesses then we should ban Russia too. If they’re a threat, then Russia is a threat too. If you’re full of hatred go and study the history of mankind and what it has produced because of people like you!
I don’t support them at all and I’m an ex-jw, sexually abused when I was 7, happily gay and currently shunned by my jw family. I think I should be pretty p….d off by them, don’t you think so?
Grow up people, hate is not the answer. Jesus said to love your enemies, probably I am more Christian than they are.
Regards
Mark
That’s a pretty good argument, Mark, but what would Russia be like if it were run completely by the GB? Some of those points you mentioned – human rights, Women’s rights, pedophile problems, outlawing other groups, discrimination against gay’s…..not to mention the refusal of medical treatment and the shattering effects of shunning, judging by what they do with the small amount of power they have now, what do you think they’d be like if they had free reign over a whole country?
The JW’s are not a political organisation and therefore the GB ruling over a country is not a valid counterargument to use. I am conscious that their beliefs and views are quite controversial, but so are the beliefs and views of other religions. Do you really think that the orthodox church that runs Russia and mingles with its politics is more liberal?
My point is very simple: we either tar everybody with the same brush, and therefore ban any forms of religions and liberal ideas that doesn’t fit with our views, or we let them worship and express their beliefs within legal boundaries. Many countries, including Russia, subscribed to the chart of human rights and they should live up to it.
The witnesses have the freedom to come to my door with their nonsense and I have the freedom to say thanks I’m not interested, or slam the door in their face or politely ask them not to not call on my door again. They will walk off free thinking that God will punish me and I will happily go back to my day feeling sorry for them.
This is the freedom and human rights for which thousands of people fought and died for during the centuries, which includes the now benevolent and widely accepted Christian religions and cults that have forgotten their past of genocides, holy crusades, inquisition, secrecy and obscurantism.
I repeat: study history there’s a lot to learn from it.
Regards
I know the GB are not a political organisation, Mark. That was not my point.
Here’s one point to illustrate were I’m coming from – There are 8 million JW’s and they have 23,000 hidden pedophiles. The population of Russia is 143 million and if the GB were running the country, which they’d love to, they would have 411,125 hidden pedophiles there.
I’m not suggesting Russia is any sort of paradise, but under GB rule it most certainly wouldn’t be either. They trample on human rights left right and center and if they could introduce stoning, they would. These people are archaic in their thinking and seriously want to return us to the first century.
If they had full power, which they are indeed waiting for, religious police would emerge, peeping through windows to see who was doing wrong in their own homes.
It’s a contained monster, not a box of fluffy ducks. It’s not deserving of any sort of support whatsoever, and yes, I know they’re not the only ones.
Their beliefs are more than just controversial. How about devious, hideous and potentially deadly? Individual JW’s are ok, but they know not what they support. It’s time they found out.
In forty years, my JW family have never once expressed the slightest sorrow at my imminent slaughter. I don’t wish anyone physical harm but I don’t care much if a few JW’s get a bit shaken up by thinking all their Armageddons have come at once.
@Mark, “Do they come to your door with guns and point them to your head?” No! But the Bible says:
(2 Samuel 12:11, 12) . . .This is what Jehovah says: ‘Here I am bringing against you calamity from within your own house; and before your own eyes, I will take your wives and give them to another man, and he will lie down with your wives in broad daylight. 12 Although you acted in secret, I will do this in front of all Israel and in broad daylight.’”
So they come with the Bible and their Penises and Vaginas and both can be used as a “Weapon of war”! The Bible shows clearly how Jehovah has used “Penises” to destroy both his/her/its people and their enemies.
The WTS reports that “a considerable number of judicial actions and disfellowshippings that take place each year are the result of sexual misconduct.” (See w13 5/15 p. 29 par. 13). Can you tell how many families are destroyed by Elders behind these Penises and Vaginas activities within Jehovah’s Witnesses community and outside. If you don’t, ask me the numbers.
From bad to worse.
These comments from Jado are fulfilling their purpose. Just as a 5yr old thinks farts and butts and poop are funny words and gets people to laugh and pay attention to them, Jado is getting the desired attention he is craving through his sexual comments which highlight his sexual frustration. The only way to get him to stop such drivel is to ignore him. Because really now, this is getting out of hand! Come on people, stop laughing and commenting at his jokes. Enough is enough. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a plant from WT to distract from the points being discussed.
IMHO
Let’s see if that works.
Bruno,
A ban will not stop them spreading false doctrine and recruiting more unsuspecting victims.
One of my grandparents were recruited into this cult when his or her country was under ban.
They would have “picnics” where they would dunk people, including my forefather.
They would have “bible” studies.
They would covertly “witness” with only the Bible.
Thank you for removing invites; that was cool!
Jaime
@Silas Thompson cont’d:
4. You stated two different ways in which the same prophecy has been fulfilled:
“For example in the modern age it has been Germany and then USSR.”
You also admitted:
“We have not been officially informed by the “faithful slave” who the identity of the King of the North is at this time.”
The WT for years taught that the USSR will competitively exist until Armageddon, and will fall at that time after aggressions against the rest of the world (Your Will Be Done On Earth 1958). The WT was, however, wrong about this, as the USSR is now defunct and Armageddon did not come while it was in existence.
In a previous Watchtower publication entitled The New World (1942) “The king of the north” was quite different and included (p. 324):
– the Central Powers, or imperial Germany
– Roman-Catholic Austria-Hungary
– Roman Catholic Italy and the Vatican
– Japan
An even earlier WT publication entitled Thy Kingdom Come (1891) applied the latter part of Daniel chapter 11 to the Napoleonic period in 1799.
* How can the same prophecy have multiple ways of being fulfilled?
* Is a prophecy valid if it can be fulfilled in more than one way?
* Is a prophecy valid if it allows for a multitude of possible interpretations or events?
* Is a prophecy valid if its meaning can be changed over time?
“Is a prophecy valid if it allows for a multitude of possible interpretations or events?” my answer is YES especially when prophecy is used as a political instrument or a mind control tool.
Read dp chap. 16 p. 277 par. 15 “[…] After his victory in the second world war, the king of the south targeted fearsome nuclear weapons on his rival and organized against him a powerful military alliance, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). Concerning NATO’s function, a British historian says: “It was the prime instrument for the ‘containment’ of the USSR, which was now perceived as the principal threat to European peace. Its mission lasted for 40 years, and was carried out with indisputable success.” As the years of the Cold War went by, the “pushing” by the king of the south included high-tech espionage as well as diplomatic and military offensives.”
Now try to imagine the Power behind gathering 175.000 people to spread the Good News about destruction of their OWN COUNTRY.
That’s how at family level they will use WOMEN to destroy their own FAMILY using a special weapon: Sex.
messenger…….our ‘debate’. What debate? When did I lose? Last thing I remember was you telling me you didn’t want to argue and that I was to choose my own god. How is that me losing?
How many truckloads of confirmation bias do you get delivered to your house each week? About eight, I reckon.
It’s not important outandabout. But in case you can’t remember let me help you. You previously claimed that believers in God “are deluded.” I counter you with “for that to be true (believers deluded) you are also deluded because you cannot prove God does not exist, thus challenging you to prove your position. You eventually agreed you couldn’t. End of debate.
The fact some of your buddies didn’t understand the nature of the debate and inserted irrelevant points to the conversation does not mean you didn’t lose. Patting each other on the poo poo with comments of “excellent reasoning” that don’t address the central issue did not help you.
But like I said buddy, it doesn’t matter, there was no harm meant to you.
Take care buddy. You are still the most enjoyable fellow to talk to here in my opinion. And I say that in all honesty.
@messenger,
And what you would have to admit is that you were likewise unable to prove God exists (aside from asking everyone to accept the personal visions you referred to). Stalemate. And a stalemate is not victory, no matter what you tell yourself.
WS
Messenger….you believe in God 100%. To do that means you’ve lost all reason and therefore are deluded. You can’t possibly say god exists just because you had a dream. A ‘feeling’ is not a ‘fact’, as you keep saying to others and keep failing to apply to yourself.
We all have dreams, man. King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream which supported his preconceived idea that the world was flat. Martin Luther King had a dream and even Susan Boyle had one, publicly, and she received a standing ovation for hers.
I’ve read your dream, messenger. All I see is a meeting of preconceived ideas, confirmation bias, majical thinking, religious indoctrination, a desire to be right, a belief that you’re always right and all mixed together with coincidence. Claiming you’ve been contacted by God and sent here as a messenger is a fairly risky thing to do unless you’re happy with being thought of as deluded or are actually deluded. If there’s a group of twenty people and one of them is deluded, who is the last to know?
You’re only human and help is at hand. Dr outandabout prescribes that you put your bible aside for awhile, (abstain from the offending drug) complete your study of anthropology and then move onto psychology and make sure you pass with honors. I know you have the brain for it. Doing so should give you more insight into being human and if you’re honest with yourself, should lead you to a ‘now hang on a minute’ moment. That then should allow you to wind back your intensity on the subject of God to a sane and acceptable level.
Now why don’t you come and lie down on this comfy couch and tell me all about your relationship with your father.
PS Love yer work, man.
outandabout,
They insulted Christ. If living then would you have been among that bunch? And would you have been among the crowd yelling crucify him, because he doesn’t share your beliefs? What are you afraid of?
Winston
I suggest you understand topical points under consideration before joining in comments. What do scriptures say about people who comment on a matter before hearing (understanding) it? I won’t insult you on this open forum with that answer. But you know what the answer is.
The point of that previous discussion had absolutely nothing to do with proving God exists.
Unfortunately in the USA many people have not developed good reading comprehension skills. As an educator I know why. Many students don’t read their reading assignments. They just skim to look up answers instead of giving those a thorough reading. The more we do anything, the better we get, and they don’t
I know you knew the gist of that previous conversation, because I remember a comment you made about it. I’m not looking it up, but I’ll attempt to quote you (WS), ” I don’t think it’s fair they should call us (Christians) deluded.” Since you understood the argument, I don’t know what to tell you Winston.
Perhaps you have a faulty memory WS, or either you still don’t know what was taking place, despite your comment. Outandabout understood, though he might not admit it. And if he’s honest he’ll admit he lost the argument, unless he’s factually deluded. I recognize that possibility exists, but its not likely considering his comments.
Instead of being deluded it’s more likely that outandabout is an extremely opinionated person, who gets upset when he loses an argument. I believe one of the sisters here may have pegged him correctly when she envisioned him pacing back and forth and getting steamed up during our last debate.
@ WS and outandabout
Just to help you two out, in case you still don’t know what took place, though I believe outandabout is fully aware of it. The previous point under discussion was: Did outandabout make a sensible claim when he stated all Christian believers in God are deluded? And if he did, how is his claim sensible when he cannot prove God does not exist? Does his claim, under that circumstance of not being able to prove his position, identify his own reasoning as faulty, even delusional?
As I outlined the points of discussion did not entail me proving anything. The point under discussion only included outandabout proving that HIS claim was a rational thought, and it also questioned his thinking ability or lack of it.
Messenger
Ad hominem seems to be your modus operandI (sorry for all the Latin, but as an educator I am sure you can handle it). You are insinuating that I am not grasping the debate due to poor reading skills?
First of all, you keep mentioning that you are an educator. You are obviously proud of that as you should be. However, you are in error to assume (or insinuate) that the rest of us commenting here are lacking in education. I will share that I am likewise an educator at the university level. I attended one of the highest rated universities in the country for my area of science and graduated with highest honors. So reading comprehension is not a problem for me. But this is an internet blog, not a college textbook. I certainly don’t have the time or the inclination to read every single word of every single comment posted.
I agree that neither the atheist nor the theist is right to call the other deluded. What caught my eye was when you put the onus on outandabout to disprove God’s existence. To my mind that is the bigger issue at stake, compared to the relatively minor insult of being called deluded. That is a common misrepresentation of logical argumentation used by the JW hierarchy. That’s what struck a chord with me and what I was arguing against. Really, calling someone deluded seemed minor by comparison.
Because you chose to defend the position of putting the onus on someone to disprove God’s existence, that became the debate in my mind. Thinking back, I see little beyond that point that dealt with the “deluded” insult.
And when it comes to debating God’s existence, you are preaching to the choir in my case. I do believe in a creator, but I don’t believe it can be either proved or disproved via logical debate. I believe that reason and logic are the greatest attributes that The Creator has given humankind and when I see these being seemingly flouted, I respond. And I don’t need any mystical signs or contact to believe in a creator. I also respect others who choose to believe something different or not to believe anything at all. That too is a gift from the Creator to mankind and in many of your comments I don’t get the sense that you share that respect.
WS
WS
I understand you don’t read every word of everyone’s comments, neither do I. Yet you commented on outandabouts deluded comment, which was the entire point of my conversation with him. What you take as important in our conversation has nothing to do with what the conversation was about. Therefore, what is important to you is irrelevant to me. I never claimed I could prove God’s existence to him, so that argument was, in reality, not a stalemate. I don’t agree to pat him on his poo poo for false reasoning against God.
The only reason I put it to him to prove his belief in God’s nonexistence was because it doesn’t show much intelligence on his part to call those on one side of a position deluded when he, the accuser, cannot prove his own side. What you felt I should prove or disprove in that conversation was and is irrelevant to what the conversation I had with outandabout was about.
And yes I feel to make the type of comment you made, you should have read what we were discussing. Do what you want, but that way shows wisdom. To just throw in a comment, because someone stated something like, “prove God is nonexistent” when you don’t know the reason behind it doesn’t show much wisdom. My guess, and its only a guess, is that you probably did read my earlier comment. You jumped into the conversation quite early, and that conversation did not last too long.
Then you went on to praise very simple reasoning, suggesting it made some point I should accept. Not too smart from where I sit. When I debate I consider all aspects at the start, or I don’t debate. Because I only debate what I already know. Not what I have to think about. And those common sense thoughts you thought impressive were considered by me before my first comment.
The reason I refer to being an educator has nothing to do with ego. I’ve had careers much more glamorous and fulfilling than being an educator. My references to teaching are attached to comments about very poor reading comprehension skills some people have. That I’ve learned as an educator. That’s the only reason to mention the work I currently do, and I didn’t want to tell that. I brought it up because of some of the ridiculous reasoning happening here. Often there’s more anger than reason. I though you might have figured out by now from my comments, the impression I make of myself on others is not something I’m very concerned about.
Let me ask you WS. You referred to R Franz beliefs in a past post. R. Franz believed attachment to Christ, belief in Christ, is necessary for salvation. Do you believe that? Or do you share another belief now? If you share another, do you attempt to square that with the whole of Bible teachings, or have you given up your trust in some of the Bible’s scriptures?
And I don’t think you need worry about my personality. We’re not here for the sake of making friends, are we?
@Messenger
Once again, I think we will have agree on some points and agree to disagree on others. These posts and comments go in several directions and admittedly I don’t have the time or the patience to try to track one continuing theme. I took issue with the proof god doesn’t exist statement (and I would take issue with the opposite, proof god does exist), no more, no less. As I said before, everyone has a right to determine their own belief system and provided it ‘does no harm’ they should not be maligned because of it. To me that goes for Christians and Non-Christians alike.
To answer your other questions, while I respect Ray Franz’s belief system and how he stood up for what is right, I do not accept his beliefs as my own. At this time, I follow the path of Christian Deism. As such I do not believe in special revealed truth, except to the extent that the Creator reveals it to all his children. I don’t accept the inerrancy of any so-called holy book, be it the Bible, the Koran, the Hindu Vedas, or similar. I recognize that at least portions of all these books were written by devout believers in God, but the only level of inspiration is that which is available to any of us as children of the Creator. As a Christian Deist, I recognize the superlative value in the basic teachings of Christ. Christian Deists view Jesus as a proponent of natural theology, who was later deified by followers such as the Apostle Paul. A study of early Christianity reveals that there were many differing schools of Christian thought, but the Pauline theology was the one that won out, was propagated by the Church, and is considered mainstream today. I could provide additional commentary in this regard, but what i have stated is probably sufficient.
As for making friends on this site, it’s a bit tough to do since none of know who anyone really is and we are separated by thousands of miles in many cases. However, there our many commenters who I have come to respect. My purpose in commenting is not to sway anyone to my belief system or to win any arguments. Rather, commenting, and seeing my comments reflected back by others, helps me gain perspective on my time in the high control organization of the Watchtower. Also, perhaps my experience can help someone who is struggling to break free from undue influence or to pick up the pieces due the negative after effect of the JW experience.
WS
The writer of this article lost all credibility when they listed shunning by relatives as the number one grievance against Jehovah’s Witnesses. Any crime against children would be the number one issue if this was a credible story.
I don’t recall seeing that in the article, but for sake of argument let’s assume I missed it. So because the writer failed to organize the grievances against JWs in the order you would, he looses ALL credibility? Really? Seems a bit judgemental if you ask me. No doubt learned from the Jdubs.
WS
@messenger, are you an elder? What is your relationship with the JW’s?
Caroline
What difference does that make? Perhaps at some prior time you had the utmost respect for elders because of their position? I’ve heard this question from you before addressed to me and another Witness. I don’t identify with any sort of hero worship. And I don’t do anything to sanction it, including telling any particular positions I’ve held in the WT organization. Your knowing I’ve stated I’ve worked with WT in several appointed positions is enough to inform readers I’m familiar with WT policies, and that I don’t write posts in ignorance. If that answer is not satisfactory, I write for all readers and not at one person’s requests. The only reason I’ve revealed what I have about myself is to let the atheists here, and others that are not atheists know that God still does contact people, and he still uses human messengers. While you might not accept that reality, no one can logically deny it is a claim and belief made by many in our day and throughout history. Other information I’ve revealed about myself has been to further certain arguments I had with with others while representing Christ’s teachings.
I’m not here as some sort of therapy. I don’t need therapy because of my stay with WT. Hopefully those that do need therapy get better and become stronger. Christians must be strong to resist the onslaught of evil teachings they face.
While we live in conditions that are physically, and emotionally difficult, and I agree those can be terribly difficult, our fight as viewed by Christ/God and the Devil is simply one of ideas. Will a person CHOOSE to follow God? Or will a person choose not to follow God, for whatever reason? Whether I now or ever served as a ministerial servant, elder, circuit overseer, or gb member has nothing to do with helping ones personally answer either of those questions. In the end everyone will know the truth. Hopefully we can help others make their choice, so that they can benefit from what they’ll eventually see. Before everything is over Caroline you will be contacted also, and shown who God is.
Best wishes Caroline.
Leave Caroline alone, messenger, and get back on that couch!
outandabout
Another irrational comment from you buddy. It demonstrates a contributory reason to why you could never beat me in a debate. Practice your reading comprehension skills, and your comments will be more logical. Like before, it appears you don’t know what happened. Where’s Waldo?
My advice is, read a lot. Eventually you’ll get to the point where you can understand written documents on first reading. It’ll take time, but I promise you’ll get there. Just put in the work.
@Messenger,
I believe you have a noble cause, and I have learnt some really important ways of looking at things from you. The view you just explained with regard to positions in Jehovah’s org is a view I share with you, but I notice not many JW’s do. They tend to ‘hero worship’ those in higher positions.
Anyway, that is not the purpose of my writing this.
My purpose is to say there are those of us who appreciate and have benefitted from your advice. I know you don’t need to be told this, because you are following a higher cause, but I would like others to be aware that you are appreciated.
Thanks Ricardo. We’ll meet in the new world. When someone looks for you named messenger, it will be me.
Hey folks! … twistedsister69 back, & badder than ever. After a prolonged battle, I have finally seized the Apple Store at the local mall. Not sure how long I can hold out, but supplies & ammunition should last a while. Pray for me … (: KIDDING (: …
Seriously though, I don’t know what to think on this issue. I myself (much like Hitler lol) would LOVE to see the WT SUPERCULT wiped off the planet, along with the Devil-God YAHWEH, who has misled the entire inhabited Earth, jews, christians & muslims alike, with “his” ;) mindless philosophies. But CF made some valid points. I’m thinking that, with JWs operating underground, it could be even easier for the sickos to take advantage of children, as they would be protected by yet another layer or 2 of secrecy. Some people just never give up, much like Hehr Hitler, who STUBBORNLY waited until the last yawning moment before he put a bullet in his own face. If only it were that easy with WT.
To the former J-Dubs arguing this “king of the north, king of the south” nonsense. This is governing body “myth-lore”. If you think it has any legitimacy you should just go back.
This is the equivalent of the non-sensical Scientology jargin.
In other words if you believe in that non sense long enough to debate about it then you still believe the witnesses plucked and sold this myth out of the bible with some sort of legitimacy.
Make believe has no legitimacy.
Please explain to me why the Bible stories are anymore legitimate than the story of Peter Pan.
They’re not.
Arguing witness theology and doctrine on this forum, as if it was ever more than the rantings of power hungry morons who have never had to get a job of their own, is a sign that you still lend credibility to their non sense.
If there is a god then why is there more than one religion to worship him?
Think about that.
Take all of the time you need.
But please stop regurgitating teachings from the now debunked Revelation book (that I studied at book study at least 3 times) as an even valid conversation point.
If you lend any relevance to their non sense, one may as well go back to eating from the non sense buffet.
Yours is the voice of reason, JM, but some people need to go through a process before arriving where you are now….or not. Some will make it, some won’t.
I know. My apologies for being harsh. The costs of my awakening are a wife and only daughter.
I hate this cult.
But it is so”see through” when you are out.
“Deborah and Rahab were said to foreshadow the great crowd.” (w15 3/15 p. 17 par. 2). They have transformed all the world in a Bible Movie where players are imitating a Bible character? Who are you imitating? Samson, David, Bathsheba, Absalom, Rahab, Job, …
The worst character to imitate in my opinion “Deborah and Rahab”!!! These are used to push especially women and some men in destroying their families and nations.
Living with a woman who imitated Rahab was a nightmare to me! One day, she hid an elder who had come to shepherd her! Elders never come with guns, but wit a spiritual sword, the Bible and a biological weapon, Penis and sometimes it boomerangs on them. This Elder says:
“My wife committed adultery with one of my former students. She had become spiritually weak right under my nose, and I was too concerned about all my privileges even to notice it.” (See w12 8/15 p. 28 par. 13).
They call that a “Tragedy”! Yes, Guns are better than their genitals.
@Jado,
You never disappoint.
I’m actually thinking now that it was a bad idea for this discussion and giving opinion on the banning.
Yes it is healthy to have a good debate and share our different opinions but this topic has made me feel a bit depressed and disappointed.No not just for the reason that a lot don’t have the same opinion as me.I feel in this case as we are all mostly United that we are against the Jehovah’s witnesses beliefs and practices the differences of opinion of this argument is leaving a bad taste with some of us.I think this topic is too sensitive.
Those of us who have suffered or anyone who has been affected by the watchtower,need to stay on constructive,positive and upbuilding comments.
Too much repetitive,going round in circle arguments does not unite us against the watchtower.(I do realise we get the rare jw believer on at times).
This religion is clearly designed to use Bible’s tales and corrupt the World in order to make humanity a society of feeble minded, easy to dominate and manipulate.
Look at this:
“Barham, who “conducts seances that include sexual intercourse between participants and ‘entities’ from the spirit world.” Barham claims that the “entities” clone themselves, using cells from his body to materialize.
“The entities are unusually interested in sex,” notes “Time.” But whether or not Barham’s sensuous “entities” are real or a hoax, the Bible reveals that any “spirits” contacted through séances are not dead persons. They are shown to be the same sex-centered “supernatural beings” who developed a lust for human girls in Noah’s day and materialized to take “the ones they liked” as wives.—Gen. 6:1, 2, “Good News Bible.” (see w80 3/15 p. 27).
Which Sovereign Country can allow such corruption and abuse of the brain to her children: http://wol.jw.org/rw/wol/mp/r127/lp-yw/lr/2003/106 ? The country of Ivan Pavlov should not be on the list of such countries for the benefits of humanity.
I see most on this site seem to rebuke JW’S, but yet you must have been doing some sort of reading to gain an understanding of the work that is being done. JW’S do not worship a person you can remove the words cult from among us in fact look up what the meaning of the word cult is we don’t hide in private we mingle with the public and have fun just like everyone else in balance and with modesty. a cult entails a number of things that are tied to christianity such as idolatry, paganism etc..we do not worship a thing or person; most of you in christianity follow what the preacher says on the pulpit and worship the cross as well as a Christmas, easter AND THESE OTHER HOLIDAYS and try to make it so called Christian! Thats a cult you follow what your preacher does we don’t follow a person nor do we worship inanimate objects, idolatry, pagan rituals all demonic; but take note regarding our work Matthew 24:14 states that the Good news will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come. Who is carrying out this message today? door to door city to city? Look up the scripture in your own copy of the bible, oh and might I add God’s name is in Psalms 83:18; you may also locate his name in the king James version so again tell me who do we worship? When you have carefully scrutinized your own faith with the scriptures not mans tradition and have researched what most of Christendom believes in which are false teachings most of it is Cult than you have something to say but as of right now most will criticize what they do not KNOW and refuse to understand, speaking and acting like fools. Most follow what every one else does and take no note of the truth. Help me understand how most in the churches believe everyone goes to heaven when they die and Jesus preached of a resurrection read Acts 24:15 what would be the reason for Jesus ransom? if you just get to heaven? Help me understand how most of the world has no hope when they lose a loved one when the scriptures specifically state that sickness and death will be no more Rev 21;3,4 AND AGAIN JOHN 5:19 TALKS ABOUT THE RESURRECTION. HELP ME UNDERSTAND THAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY THE DEAD ARE CONSCIOUS OF NOTHING IN ECCLESIASTES 9:5,6 10 BUT MOST IN THE WORLD WOULD RATHER BE TOLD THEY ARE SERVING A GOD THAT TORTURES PEOPLE AND WILL BURN IN HELL FIRE, WHEN THE SCRIPTURES SPECIFICALLY TELL YOU GOD IS LOVE. 1ST JOHN (4:16) ROMANS 6:23 STATES FOR THE WAGES SIN PAYS IS DEATH; WE ARE ALL DYING BECAUSE WE ARE IMPERFECT HOWEVER IT IS BY MEANS OF JESUS RANSOM SACRIFICE MATT 20:28 STATES JUST AS THE SON OF MAN CAME TO BE MINISTERED TO BUT TO MINISTER AND GIVE HIS LIFE AS A RANSOM IN EXCHANGE FOR MANY? IT DOES NOT SAY ALL BECAUSE MOST WILL NOT EXCEPT THE TRUTH. INSTEAD OF RECOGNIZING JESUS RANSOM SACRIFICE WHICH IS THE HOPE FOR MANKIND TO BE RECONCILED BACK TO OUR LOVING FATHER JEHOVAH GOD; THE WORLD FOCUSES AND USES EASTER EGGS AND CELEBRATES THE RESURRECTION; WHICH IS A WORSHIP OF THE GOD OF FERTILITY; MOST IN THE WORLD FAIL TO REALIZE THE RESURRECTION WAS A COVENANT THAT JEHOVAH GOD MADE WITH HIS SON FOR DOING HIS WILL ON EARTH. MOST DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE RANSOM. JESUS POURED HIS BLOOD ON BEHALF OF MANKIND THAT ONE WOULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EVERLASTING LIFE. OUR HOPE OF EVERLASTING LIFE IS NOT THROUGH BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS OF SOMEONE ELSES BLOOD/ SHOULD A TRAGEDY STRIKE, THAT BLOOD DOES NOT BELONG TO US WE HAVE NO BUSINESS PLAYING GOD THE HOPE IS THROUGH THE RANSOM SACRIFICE JESUS BLOOD ONE MAN WHO DIED AGAIN FOR MANY. THERE ARE PLENTY OF SAFE ALTERNATIVES. I SEE THE ONES WHO HAVE AN ISSUE WITH JW’S ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT AND WILL NOT SEEK TRUTH AND READ THEIR BIBLE. OH AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST THE AWAKE AND WATCHTOWER IS NOT A BIBLE IT IS A CONCORDANCE THAT IS USED IN CONJUCTION WITH OUR BIBLE, HOWEVER; OUR BIBLE IS OUR AUTHORITY WHEN WE OFFER THE ARTICLES TO THE PUBLIC IT HELPS OUR NEIGHBORS FIND COMMON GROUND AS MOST OF US FACE THE SAME ISSUES IN THIS WORLD. I ENCOURAGE YOU TO STOP BEING A FOLLOWER AND DO YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL RESEARCH READ 1 TIMOTHY 4:16, AT THE END OF THE DAY IT IS ABOUT RESPECT BY NO MEANS DO WE GO TEARING DOWN OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN. IF YOU HAVE THE TRUTH WHY ARE YOU NOT SHARING IT WITH EVERYONE ELSE ?BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT TRUE CHRISTIANS DO? IT IS WISE FOR YOU TO LISTEN AND ASK QUESTIONS WITH AN OPEN MIND BEFORE YOU TALK WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW. WE CARE ABOUT OUR NEIGHBORS AND SEEK TO HELP THOSE WHO WANT TO LISTEN COME TO AN ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH JOHN 17;3 BEFORE THE ENDS BUT AS THE BIBLE STATES THE RANSOM IS FOR MANY NOT ALL. AS FAR AS THE BAN IT WON’T STICK AND EVEN IF IT DOES JEHOVAH’S HAND IS IN HIS WORK FULL FORCE SO PLEASE PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE OUTCOME.
Shabazz 3@netzero.net. Could you please tell me what the Good news is that Jehovah’s Witnesses are preaching in all the inhabited earth?
Shabazz
Just a little observation and suggestion. You write too much. I, for one, but there might be many others like me, will not read such long comments. And you also might get a larger audience to consider your thoughts by staying on one, or two points only. Expressing many points is rambling, and again, you loose your audience. I didn’t read your entire comment.
Some here are saying you’re not a Christian. I don’t, but they claim you are in a cult. Now you know how Christians in other denominations FEEL when you claim that about them, as you did in your comment. Maybe there is some justice in that, which Christ wanted you to experience.
You say you do not follow a person, which is true, you follow a group called the governing body. Biblically you should follow a person, Christ, yet you haven’t grown spiritually enough to do that. Don’t fret, Christ is forgiving, and he understands while allowing time for your growth. Keep seeking him, and one day you will understand things more accurately.
You may deny following your group the governing body. So, to test that idea I’ll provide a way. Actually Christ will provide it. Go into your kingdom hall, ask to speak to three elders privately, and then in private tell those elders you decide not to follow the governing body anymore, that you decide only to follow Christ and the Bible, and that’s what you will teach others in field service.
Here, as one of Christ’s representatives I’ll tell you what will happen next. They will either get you to retract that belief, convincing you to, or they will convene a judicial committee to investigate you for apostasy. Both might happen. And don’t expect them to let you go out teaching that as a Jehovah’s Witness.
See how not too many points were considered here. That’s what you need to do in your posts to enlarge your reading audience.
@ Ricardo
Hold on Ricardo, I’ll get down on my knee and beg your forgiveness.
All readers here’s how the word is spelled. LOSE not loose. In the future please only use the other spelling when referring to Tight Pants Tony. That way Ricardo stays happy.
@Messenger,
Did you do that on purpose? Just to see my reaction?
I know you are a compassionate brother, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and thank you for thinking of my sensibilities.
I still can’t understand why those guys wanted to write “You are a looser”. But no doubt it made Tony happy.
I didn’t like shabazz using those big letters, though. Did they mean shabazz was yelling?
Ricardo that spelling is sometimes used because of how we were taught to sound out words. The word lose is an exception to the rule. You know many words like Skate have a silent ‘e’ and a vowel that sounds like its letter’s name. Lose is an exception to that rule. Many people associate its spelling with ‘choose’ rather than the exception oo sound spelling in lose.
What we need is to hear and see is another really good Tight Pants speech. It might loosen up some of the tension here. Tony may be put here to save us from ourselves.
@Messenger,
Is it your opinion that those guys were really saying, “You are a loser”? Really? Wow, that was a really mean thing for them to say. I was thinking they were making a differentiation to the ‘tighters’. Tony would probably call the apostates the ‘tighters’ and the witnesses are the ‘loosers’.
That comment from shabazz frightened me. All those big letters as if he/she started yelling at us half way through. Maybe something went wrong with the keypad and he/she desperately wanted to share the message with us. I couldn’t read it as it was so scary.
Yes, you could get attacked while being on either side here Ricardo. That’s the nature of this place. It’s my opinion they meant loser, but spelled it looser. I wouldn’t worry about it though.
If the elders attempt a deceptive tactic and claim you are presently doing what you presented to them, that is following Christ not your gb, then test their claim by denying your belief in three of JW’s primary doctrines or rules. You choose the three. And then you’ll see your meeting progresses in the way I outlined.
If you do this, and find yourself sitting in such a meeting, then while its happening to you consider in your mind, at that time, if those three teachings of WT that you denied are WT’s Holy Trinity.
Who are you fooling? You are not even ashamed to “TALK ABOUT THE RESURRECTION” as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
They “the first resurrection” which is for those resurrected to heaven to rule as king-priests with Christ over the earth. Some of them have died and their graves are full of their bones yet this JWs believe they rule NOW with Jesus in heaven…
If yes, is that resurrection of their copy. One Elder told me when they resurrect they see people crying over their bodies. Truly, this religion is a perfect scale used to measure human stupidity.
No mention of sex?
@markie,
No use trying that. I’ve already tried that strategy. Doesn’t work. If you find something that works, share. You know what Shibboleth (make sure you say it properly) said.
Shabazz….you have absolutely no idea what a cult is. It’s a bit more complicated than you think. One of the first things a cult does is to convince a person the bible is corrupt. Another sign of a cult is when an organisation prints it’s own bible and calls it ‘new and improved’. That’s WT on both counts, and I haven’t even begun.
outandabout,
I find it interesting that Shabazz uses Watchtower’s limited definition of a cult. Of course a cult will define cults in such a way that they do not come off looking like a cult.
Shabazz would benefit from reading combatting cult mind control by Steve Hassan and learning the bite model: Behavior-Information-Thought-Emotion control identifies a cult.
WS
Winston…..the last time looked at the answer to ‘are we in a cult? on JWOrg, they gave Jim Jones and David Koresh as examples of a cult and then quickly moved onto how they can’t possibly be a cult because they worship money, no sorry!!, Jesus.
So there you go, JW’s….you now know everything there is to know about religious cults.
To my mind, their dishonest account proves they know they’re a cult.
Banning is not the answer, it will lead to people being
rounded up and disappearing as in the Stalin era. I for
one don’t want to see that practice rearing its ugly head
again. A ban will also fuel growth in other parts of the world
due to the JW mentality, a belief that the whole religion is
being persecuted. It will be a spur that the gb, will ruthlessly
exploit. You can’t ban an idea, a belief. Ignorance can only be
expunged by reason, by education.
Human rights have been hard won. Steady progress has been
made over the last 100 years but there’s still a long way to go.
Banning would be a backward step. A fair and just action would
be to withdraw state funding and charity status, on the proven
grounds that it does nothing in the interests of charity. But is
purely a for profit company.
@shabazz,
First of all let me say you are away off topic.
But anyway,can I ask ,have you been locked away in a Kingdom Hall for a while and just came out into the world?
Everything you have mentioned,scriptures and basic jw doctrine- most of us have all been there,wore the t- shirt and yes,did our research.Research from the watchtower history books that your organisation are hiding from you and the rest of the sheep.In other words my friend,with all due respect,DONT TELL YOUR DAD HOW TO MAKE BABIES.
Some ideas to think about concerning the Jehovah’s Witness ban. These ideas relate to Jehovah’s Witnesses banning other Jehovah’s Witnesses. That ban is their longest ban I’m aware of.
1) Would Jehovah ban a Christian from everlasting life for expressing and/or teaching disbelief that Christ set up his heavenly kingdom, to rule Earth, in 1919?
2) Would Jehovah ban a Christian from everlasting life for believing Christ had no beginning?
3) Would Christ ban a Christian from everlasting life if choosing to participate in voting?
4) Would Christ ban a Christian from everlasting life for teaching some Christians in (various) Christian denominations are accepted as his followers?
5) Would Christ choose men, to assist him rule the world, that cut off thousands of Christians’ spiritual associations for practicing things he hasn’t expressed explicit condemnation for?
Those questions consider whether it’s biblical for a Christian organization to ban its members for practicing things not specifically condemned in scripture. Condemnation is inferred in scripture by Jehovah’s Witnesses. You can add many other beliefs to this list, if you’re familiar with WT teachings. It’s important for every Christian, including JW, to consider the religious positions inside their brotherhoods. It will not create spiritual anarchy to do that. The Bible contains plenty of restrictions placed on adherents. According to scripture, are Christians to impose additional restrictions on other members to permit association?
1) or 1914?
IT’s not a christian organisation, messenger. It’s a self serving mind control religious based cult that you can’t completely leave the safety of because you’re scared of getting zapped by Jehovah out on open ground if he suddenly decides to unleash the Big A. Quite a conundrum.
This cult has created a generation of sadistic people that a study should be conducted worldwide to see the extent by which they have done so.
I met 2 days ago a mother and daughter preaching and approached. I intentionally asked me to read (Hosea 13:16) . . .Sa·marʹi·a will be held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. By the sword they will fall, Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.”
After reading the verse, I asked them: “To whom the verse apply?” the answer was shocking: Apostates, catholic church,…”! These people are conditioned to blood and Armageddon stimulates them more than the paradise it is meant to precede.
Interesting post, 1st of all i don’t really care what happens, Trump is showing himself as some sort of Christian, Putin is trying to get rid of all religions except The Russian Orthodox, its communism remember, thats what they do, also if you dig into the UN’s various sites you will uncover the plan to ban all religion & create a new world order, one currency & the world divided into segments, Australia for instance will be a very large Wheat supplier for the whole world, Religion is evil & is/has been used to control the masses, the governments know this, hence its been allowed to stay, nothing happened in 1914 except a big war, 607 another lie, war means money, the Us allowed Japan to attack pearl harbour, they wanted a reason to enter WW2, this meant money for the economy, The US attacked the trade centres, to wage the war on terror, they found no WMS when they invaded Irag, add to this the Media which are feeding us crap, so thats my take, everything out their is a lie & a con.
The Matrix!
They all know it. Russia know why JWs are extremists and know the meaning of their publications regarding Russia existence.
People wake up.
The watchtower and our lives have been diverted from reality.
This world will rock and roll.
The watchtower will try and jam events into their narrative to prove themselves right.
However they have never been right.
About anything. (I left when I investigated the matter and learned that they have never said even 1 thing that was correct)
Ever.
Just enjoy the rock and roll.
JM, so true, remember when Clinton got into power, we were studying the Revelation book & we were all saying this is peace & security, the Berlin wall came down, men continue to manipulate the scene.
For the sake of historical accuracy, the Berlin Wall came down under George HW Bush, not Clinton.
WS
I too am for freedom of religion.
The watchtower is a Hitlarian money hungry corporation mascharading for a religiosa.
Should a corporation with inflexible rules that bring about
untold grief in families, like shunning your loved ones;
that closes an eye on pedophilia from within, rewards the monster and punishes the victims; a business group
that controls every angle of their employees’ lives, that goes even inside their bedrooms, should they be allowed to exist and continue doing all that harm, literally destroying lives?. Frowning on people pursuing higher education, or doing volunteer work.
Should they be banned worldwide?
I most certainly think so!
Should nuclear weapons be banned? They should because they are a danger to society.
What about the Watchtower society. Are they a danger to well being, to families, to children, to society?
As someone who has slaved inside for 45 long years and seen every possible evil there is to see I say:
Enact laws that make it impossible to continue, or just ban them worldwide.
Plato with his allegory of the cave was absolutely right.
We broke ourselves free but we can’t force others.
Interesting reading if you don’t know about it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
What worries me more is not the JW’s and their delusional beliefs but the comments full of hatred and personal vendetta. The JW’s are grown-up people who made their choice based on what they perceived being “the truth”. All of us who were JW’s decided to become witnesses, I don’t remember being thrown into the baptismal pool and forced to be baptised. I was convinced, obviously brainwashed and properly indoctrinated, but naively convinced.
I woke up and decided to make my position clear to my family and friends which led to my kafkian process, to which I wasn’t even invited, and got booted out. Happy to be out of this cult, no regrets whatsoever!
Would I like this cult to be banned and brought to an end? No. Would I like to see my family and friends persecuted for their beliefs? No. Do I promote religious hatred and interrupt their meetings, conventions, and debate with them when I see them on street? No, I couldn’t care less.
I already wasted 40 years of my life in this cult and don’t want to waste the rest of it fighting against it. I respect blogs and websites like this that give the opportunity to ex-jw’s to express their opinion on different topics and share their experiences. Vent your spleen, say what you have to say but be objective in your comments. Remeber what bans, persecutions and hatred have produced in the past.
Subject like shunning and the weak child safeguarding policies, in my opinion are not serious enough to justify a ban. The Russian government doesn’t give a blink to these issues among the witnesses. Reflect, you are talking about a country run by an ex KGB agent, with no safeguarding policies for children, women and lgbt to the best of my knowledge, a country left in pieces after years of communism and their brainwashing propaganda…..
The GB is just a bunch of deluded men who think they are going to heaven to rule with Christ and even call Jesus their “big brother”, probably need a psychiatrist more than a ban. Governments can enforce the law upon these cults without necessarily ban them, the witnesses will comply in their own way and will find they way to fit the “new understanding” and “progressive light” cobblers into one of their next wt articles, and everybody lived happily ever after.
Regards
What if you were told that true mark of genuine Christians would be “Snake Handling”?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling
It would have been more interesting than Matthew 24.
I understand your point Mark, about the comments of hate and vendetta here. They concern me also, and I find them more disheartening than any other comments. But that’s what we experience on a site like this one. JW Struggle used to ban such comments, but I think that site is no longer active.
One of the sad things about WT is its share in turning people away from God. Some get ferocious in teaching against him and WT.
Best wishes buddy. Hang in there.
@messenger, you comment on here a lot but we don’t know anything about your history with the Organization. I keep asking: Were you an elder or what exactly is your experience in the Organization? You talk a lot about “Christ” but what is your opinion of the god of the Hebrew Scriptures Jehovah, the one that the Society decided to name itself after?
Also, I noticed in one of your comments you told a fully indoctrinated JW that he/she talked too much. Are you serious? I don’t even remember that person ever commenting on here before and you criticized him/her for talking too much and for that reason you said you didn’t read the whole comment. That is no excuse for not reading that whole comment. Just because a comment may seem too long for you, doesn’t make it too much talking. You are not the judge.
So, who are you Caroline to decide what I read? I suggest you stick to your own business, and decide what Caroline does. That’s all the authority you have. Use what you have, and stop presumptuously assuming you have some type of authority over others. You don’t. If you make it, and you are granted life by taking care of Caroline you’ll do just fine. I hope you do. But you’re in no position to give orders. Not to anyone here anyway.
You might have a grandkid you can order around. I don’t know about your personal life. But as far as adults, forget it. No one will listen to you, at least I won’t, so you’ll just get huffy for nothing. And again, who I am and what I’ve done is none of your business. If you make it into the new world I’ll look you up, tell you at that time, and you’ll know then.
Should this not be the case:
A religion=freedom of religion = NO BAN.
A cult = a diversion from society and can affect
humanity with their practices (human rights)= BAN.
There must be a contradiction or a confusion with both
definitions.
I know the jw survey team believe jws are a cult.
So a cult is a cult.
Yes it would be ideal if the authorities hit them where it hurts,the taxes,fines,etc.but that won’t happen.After all that would be discriminating,the very thing the non ban brigade are sticking up for.
I am sure if the outside world,the governments knew as much as the ones who have been affected by the watchtower and their practices they would lay down the law.But they don’t,it’s not a big issue to them.
I’m afraid the debates and arguments will just roll on and on.So my view is where ever there is a ban,at least some of their society will be at minimum risk.If the jw sheeple suffer then it will be their choice.
@Outandabout:
You made some very good points RE: messenger’s alleged dream from God:
Nebuchadnezzar had what was allegedly an inspired dream about a tree that was so tall that it could be seen “from the ends of the earth” (Daniel 4:7-8, 11).
Only on a flat earth would this be possible because no matter how tall a tree would be, people on the other side of a spherical earth could not see it.
Why did God give Nebuchadnezzar an inspired dream that wrongly conveyed a flat-earth concept? I thought God knew that the earth was spherical?
On reading messenger’s description of his alleged inspired dream:
http://jwsurvey.org/australian-royal-commission/case-study-54-analysis-begins/comment-page-1#comments
it becomes clear that God did not explain to messenger the meaning of his alleged inspired dream. Messenger was the one who guessed what the dream meant and gave it his own interpretation and his own meaning – one wonders how can it be said that the dream was from God if messenger was the one who guessed what the dream meant given that God explained nothing to him?
@Outandabout cont’d:
It is also very puzzling that God communicates with messenger yet:
– Why hasn’t God appeared to the 40,000 Christian denominations and given all of them the same interpretation of the Bible so that they are all in agreement?
In particular, founders of religions such as Ellen G. White (SDA), Joseph Smith (Mormons), Charles Taze Russell ((JWs) all claimed to received revelations from God yet it is puzzling that their religions believe different things. Why isn’t God telling everyone the same thing?
– For that matter, why hasn’t God appeared to the all of the various religions in the world, explain where they are misinterpreting his wishes, tells them what he really wants, what he really desires from humanity in order to end religious schism, division, confusion and discord?
– According to the WT February 2017 par.12, p.26 – “The Governing Body (GB) is neither inspired nor infallible.”
The GB has admitted that God/the Holy Spirit does not speak to /communicate with them. Yet God communicates with . messenger
So God contacts/communicates with messenger but not the GB?
Why would God contact/communicate with messenger but not the GB?
Isn’t the GB equally seeking God’s will and praying to him, so why isn’t God answering them, speaking with them, communicating with them, contacting them as he does messenger ?
It is also worth noting that believing in revelations from God can be a dangerous thing – there are stories of devout Christians and others who have murdered their children and others because they strongly believed that God spoke to them and wanted them to do it.
@dee2,
Isn’t God communicating to all the anointed ones? All 18,000 of them claim that God has communicated to them by his spirit that they are going to heaven, including the GB members.
Messenger didn’t say God communicated something evil to him, like killing family members, just giving him encouragement, like what the angel did to Daniel. Is that beyond God’s ability? The angel only appeared to Daniel. The angel didn’t go around making house visits on a whole lot of other people, or on Daniel’s neighbours. Who knows how the spirit works?
@Ricardo,
Did you read EVERYTHING in my comments above before responding?
@dee2,
Those big letters scare me.
I guess it wouldn’t help if I said let’s pray about it and see if God gives us an answer?
@Ricardo,
[“Messenger didn’t say God communicated something evil to him, like killing family members”]
I stated above that believing in revelations from God can be a dangerous thing as there are devout Christians and others who have murdered their children and others because they strongly believed that God spoke to them and wanted them to do it.
Why weren’t these persons able to determine that it was not God who was speaking to them? Why weren’t they able to make this distinction if in fact God does speak to people and only tells them to do good things?
(for example, GOOGLE
the cases of Andrea Yates and Deanna Laney who murdered their children)
@Ricardo,
What about sex? See what used to happen between Jehovah and Sara
(Genesis 18:11-15) . . .And Abraham and Sarah were old […] Sarah had stopped having menstruation. Hence Sarah began to laugh inside herself, saying: “After I am worn out, shall I really have pleasure, my lord being old besides?” Then Jehovah said to Abraham: “Why was it that Sarah laughed, saying, ‘Shall I really and truly give birth although I have become old?’ Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah? At the appointed time I shall return to you […] and Sarah will have a son.” But Sarah began to deny it, saying: “I did not laugh!” For she was afraid. At this he said: “No! but you did laugh.”
I suspect a romantic relation between Jehovah and Sarah…. That’s why there is too much sex in JWs community. It prevents them from reasoning.
Of what significance is Messengers personal revelations
to the rest of us. Now if God had revealed to him a cure
for cancer, that would be something worth talking about.
I’ve had experiences that some would put down to para-
normal activity. A quite heavy object, ( A bottle of perfume)
flying off the shelf and 12 ft, across the room, landing in
between my wife and I who were sat on the sofa opposite.–
But just because I don’t know how that object could defy
gravity to that extent, I don’t fall back on Bronze Age
reasoning and say it must be demon activity, but in former
times as a JW, that’s the first thing that would have come
into my mind, due to WT, conditioning.
There are 7 billion people on the planet, strange inexplicable
things are bound to happen, amazing coincidences. Bringing
in invisible entities to explain them is not helpful. It’s back to
the burn the witches era.
Ted,
Messenger made some very extraordinary claims:
– God gave him a dream:
http://jwsurvey.org/australian-royal-commission/case-study-54-analysis-begins/comment-page-1#comments
– He has been chosen by God:
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/echoes-1930s-governing-body-asks-jehovahs-witnesses-mobilize-letter-writing-campaign
These extraordinary claims must be tested to determine if they are in fact true.
@dee2,
How do you propose to test this?
If there was a test to determine who God has communicated their anointing to, we would be able to differentiate the real anointed from the false anointed. But there is no test.
Messenger says he received indication from God that he would be alive after Armageddon. How to prove whether he actually received such an indication, and whether it was from God or not? Wait for the fulfillment?
@Ricardo,
Apparently you did not read my comments above so let me repeat them here:
1.) On reading messenger’s description of his alleged inspired dream:
http://jwsurvey.org/australian-royal-commission/case-study-54-analysis-begins/comment-page-1#comments
it becomes clear that God did not explain to messenger the meaning of his alleged inspired dream. Messenger was the one who guessed what the dream meant, he made up/invented/created his own meaning, his own interpretation – one wonders how can it be said that the dream was from God if messenger was the one who guessed what the dream meant given that God explained nothing to him?
2.) It is also very puzzling that God communicates with messenger yet:
– Why hasn’t God appeared to the 40,000 Christian denominations and given all of them the same interpretation of the Bible so that they are all in agreement?
Aren’t they all equally seeking God’s will and praying to him for guidance, wisdom and understanding?
In particular, founders of religions such as Ellen G. White (SDA), Joseph Smith (Mormons), Charles Taze Russell (JWs) all claimed to received revelations/communications from God yet it is puzzling that their religions believe different things. Why isn’t God telling everyone the same thing?
– For that matter, why hasn’t God appeared to the all of the various religions in the world, explain where they are misinterpreting his wishes, tells them what he really wants, what he really desires from humanity in order to end religious schism, division, confusion and discord?
– According to the WT February 2017 par.12, p.26 – “The Governing Body (GB) is neither inspired nor infallible.”
The GB has admitted that God/the Holy Spirit does not speak to /communicate with them. Yet God communicates with messenger?
So God contacts/communicates with messenger but does not contacts/communicates with the GB?
Why would God contact/communicate with messenger but not the GB?
Isn’t the GB equally seeking God’s will and praying to him for guidance, wisdom and understanding, so why isn’t God answering them, speaking with them, communicating with them, contacting them as he does messenger ?
– There are stories of devout Christians and others who have murdered their children and others because they strongly believed that God spoke to them and wanted them to do it.
If God really does communicate with persons and only tells them to do good things, then why weren’t these people able to make this distinction? Why wasn’t it possible for these persons to distinguish between when God was communicating with them and when God wasn’t communicating with them?
(GOOGLE, for example,
the cases of Andrea Yates and Deanna Laney who murdered their children)
3.) Nebuchadnezzar had what was allegedly an inspired dream about a tree that was so tall that it could be seen “from the ends of the earth” (Daniel 4:7-8, 11).
Only on a flat earth would this be possible because no matter how tall a tree would be, people on the other side of a spherical earth could not see it.
Why did God give Nebuchadnezzar an inspired dream that wrongly conveyed a flat-earth concept? I thought God knew that the earth was spherical?
@Ricardo,
– Can you specifically tell when it is the unconscious dynamics of your mind at work versus when God is communicating with you?
– Can you make a clear distinction between these two things? Are you able to separate when God is communicating with you from the unconscious dynamics of your mind? If so, how exactly are you able to make this distinction?
– Do you know what is buried in your subconscious to be able to unequivocally tell whether a “vision”, “dream” or other “divine” communication was your own product or whether it originated from an external source?
– Has God ever explicitly and unequivocally explained the meaning of any “inspired” dreams, visions to you or did you have to make up/create/invent your own meaning/interpretation?
****FYI:
ABOUT THE UNCONSCIOUS DYNAMICS OF THE HUMAN MIND:
Information enters our brains minutely, hourly, daily at the conscious and unconscious levels. Some of the unconscious information never makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing but remains in our subconscious – hypnosis has proven to be an effective method in accessing/uncovering information buried in a person’s subconscious.
There is always background activity taking place in our brains when we are awake and asleep and there is also a constant interplay between the conscious and subconscious mind – some information from the unconscious mind makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing and vice versa – thoughts/issues/concerns from the conscious mind can get pushed out of consciousness into the unconscious mind.
Our minds are never perfectly still. There is always subtle processing going on in which we can’t consciously identify the thoughts in terms of clear words or clear images. There are rapid and fleeting associations taking place in the subconscious mind.
Subtle processing or preconscious or subconscious processing gives rise to conscious self-talk and imaging, however, as I have already stated, not all unconscious
information makes its way to the conscious mind for active processing some remains in our subconscious and can be accessed/uncovered by methods like hypnosis.
Thoughts, impressions, visions, images, voices, words, etc. can also be released from our subconscious when we engage in certain intense practices like intense/deep/strong prayer, meditation, fasting etc. which can alter a person’s state of consciousness to the point where, the person descends to deeper levels of his/her consciousness and releases thoughts, impressions, visions, images, voices, words etc. from the deep mind.
This self-induced altered state of consciousness involves a transition from the left brain to the right brain wherein the rational left brain is suppressed and quieted and the perceptive faculties of the intuitive right brain are awakened and the person transcends to the unknown, inner world of their subconscious mind.
This opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done and so some persons may become psychic or clairvoyant being able to “forsee” the future when in fact it is the thoughts, impressions, images, visions, voices, words etc that are emerging from the deep, intuitive levels of the right brain as their own subconscious mind begins to “speak” to them.
New insights well up directly from the fluid matrix of the subconscious and the subtle processing taking place there, without having to be first processed at the conscious level.
Some persons become psychotic or hallucinatory or some persons become both psychic/clairvoyant and psychotic/hallucinatory when they transcend to the unknown, inner world of their subconscious mind.
Alternatively, for some persons, it does not take intense activities like hypnosis or intense/deep/strong prayer, meditation, fasting etc. which induce an altered state of consciousness which unleashes thoughts, images, visions, voices from subconscious.
Unleashing thoughts, images, visions, voices from the subconscious can occur spontaneously as well.
There is a percentage of the population for which unleashing thoughts, images, visions, voices from the subconscious occurs spontaneously and there is a percentage of the population for which unleashing thoughts, images, visions, voices from the subconscious does not occur spontaneously but occurs when they engage in intense activities that induce an altered state of consciousness.
There are also instances in which the circuits in the brain that underlie language, hearing and speaking misfire and cause some people to have transient hallucinations or some people to have a more persistent, life-disrupting illness like schizophrenia – the underlying mechanisms that causes this are being studied by clinicians.
@dee2,
I can see that you are very concerned about Messenger receiving a message which he felt was from God. I am sure Messenger will be thankful for the amount of thought you have paid to this. He may even be impressed by your big letters.
However, even with the repetition of your earlier statements, I cannot see your point. Yes, it is very unusual for a person to receive a message from God, and yet every anointed one has, apparently. Thus, as 18,000 and rising (we may break through to 22,000 today) claim to be anointed, 18,000 people besides Messenger claim to have been communicated to by God.
Messenger’s communication may have been of a different sort, I don’t know, I’m not anointed. But your line of thought is still faulty when we again think of the example of Daniel. Only he received the visit of an angel. He also didn’t understand everything he saw or heard. Why didn’t God send the angel around to various of the other older Jews, or to Nehemiah? Who knows?
You mentioned earlier that the GB says people don’t receive communication from God today. Have you begun to believe everything the GB says?
If Messenger believes there was a message from God for him, who knows?
Sorry if the answers seem to be a dog chasing its tail, but there is definitely a difficulty for others who did not have the experience to prove whether the experience is truly from God. Except in the case where the experience goes against the scriptures (i.e Mohamed (SAW) who claims the angel told him his group has to slaughter all who oppose them) or prophecies which are not fulfilled (ie 1975).
@Ricardo
I note you did not address all of the points which I raised including my questions which were directed at you.
@dee2,
Seems like a dog chasing its tail.
@Ricardo
I see you are taking an evasive approach.
Obviously you are finding it difficult to address all of the points which I raised including my questions which were specifically directed at you and so you have resorted to excuses in order to evade my comments & questions.
Hey buddy, I just read your the post down below. Just one correction though. Messenger doesn’t think he received a message from God, I know I did.
I can’t take the time to read dee2’s ridiculously long posts always teaching false thoughts. Her reasoning is too faulty. Last time she was on here she went into a long argument attempting to prove the Bible teaches believing in Christ is not necessary for salvation. Uhhh, either terribly faulty reasoning, or a deceptive presentation. In one comment she also claimed to “have much,” and she added, ” and I mean much personal experience with God talking to people.” Ricardo, if God spoke to someone who teaches his word instructs people not to believe in Christ, who might that person be? There is one such person like that referenced in the book of Job. The spirit of antichrist rests in all who deny Christ. What about those who teach others to deny Christ, and even teaches the Bible says that? We’re not instructed to teach that type. Let her think what she wants about me. It matters less than nothing.
@Messenger,
Correction recognised. There are different aspects of meaning between the two words.
Messenger:
[ “I can’t take the time to read dee2’s ridiculously long posts always teaching false thoughts. Her reasoning is too faulty. Last time she was on here she went into a long argument attempting to prove the Bible teaches believing in Christ is not necessary for salvation. Uhhh, either terribly faulty reasoning, or a deceptive presentation.” ]
There are scriptures in the Bible which explicitly and unequivocally state that a person’s salvation is based solely on their good deeds while they were alive on earth – no belief in Jesus is necessary:
Matthew 25:32-46: The “sheep and goats parable.” It appears to refer to the Final Judgment when people from all over the world will be gathered before Jesus. That would also involve people of all religious faiths, and none.
The sole criterion that is used to separate those who will attain Heaven from those who will be sent to Hell is whether they helped other people in need. That is, a person’s salvation is based solely on their good deeds while they were alive on earth.
Matthew 25:34-45 is perhaps the most difficult to harmonize with a faith-based salvation belief system because it is so clear and explicit.
The literal, straight-forward interpretation of this passage reveals that salvation is by works, not faith.
According to the parable, the population of “all nations,” that is the entire human race – Christians and non-Christians – will be gathered before Jesus when he comes to render final judgement. It describes the exact criteria which Matthew believed will be used at the Final Judgment when Jesus separates all the people of the world into two groups: those who will enter heaven and those who will spend eternity in hell.
Salvation is solely based upon a persons acts of charity to others; it is in no way dependent upon what the individual believes about Jesus’ status, or what God – if any – the person worships. So, Matthew 25 implies that Agnostics, Atheists, Baha’is, Buddhists, Christians, Deists, Hindus, Muslims, Satanists, Wiccans, and others will attain Heaven after death if they are kind to others by observing their faith’s Ethic of Reciprocity – the Golden Rule.
The literal, straight-forward interpretation of this passage reveals that salvation is by works, not faith. This is a profound thought, which leads directly to religious inclusivism and pluralism.
This conflicts with the teachings of many religions that only their followers will attain Heaven. Also, fundamentalist and other evangelical Christians generally teach that salvation is by faith, not works.
@Messenger:
Mark 10:18-25:
(This passage appears, with a few differences in Matthew 19:16-23 and Luke 18:18-24).
“And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.”
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!”
Jesus taught that personal salvation is by works only: Jesus first lists five of theTen Commandments as instructions that must be followed in order to gain salvation. These are all related to works that one must do or avoid. Using the Protestant/Eastern Orthodox sequence of Exodus 20:
Exodus 20:12: 7th commandment: Do not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:13: 6th commandment: Do not kill.
Exodus 20:15: 8th commandment: Do not steal.
Exodus 20:16: 9th commandment: Do not bear false witness.
Exodus 20:12: 5th commandment: Honor one’s parents.
It is notable that Jesus does not list any of the first four commandments as being necessary for salvation. These are related to one’s relationship with Yahweh:
To worship no other God than Yahweh.
To not make images and bow before them.
To not take the name of Yahweh in vain.
To keep Saturday, the Sabbath day, holy.
The implication appears to be that one’s beliefs about, and responses to, God are not important to one’s salvation. Only one’s works – particularly those activities involving other people – that are important.
Jesus also does not include the 10th commandment as needed for salvation. It states that one is not to covet any of one’s neighbor’ possessions: their house, wife, male slave, female slave, animals, etc.
Jesus adds three additional requirements for salvation. Again, all are “works:”
“Defraud not.” Jesus adds this requirement between his reference to the 9th and 5thcommandment. He may have considered it to be a type of corollary or a commentary on the 9th commandment. Defrauding someone might be considered a type of false witness. On the other hand, some commentators somehow believe that defrauding others is equivalent to coveting other’s possessions; they suggest that this is a reference to the 10th commandment.
“Sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor.” This appears to mean that one is to convert any assets not absolutely needed to maintain a simple standard of life, and give the proceeds to those in need. However, some suggest that the sentence should not be interpreted literally; it really means that one should value God more than one’s riches.
“Come, take up the cross, and follow me” This apparently means to become a member of Jesus’ inner circle, accept a life of simplicity and poverty, and travel the countryside with Jesus and his disciples. This option does not appear to be applicable to people alive in the 21st century, unless it is interpreted symbolically.
According to these statements attributed to Jesus, salvation is by doing good works:
Dispose of your assets and give everything that you can to the poor.
Honor your parents.
One must also avoid certain evil activities:
Adultery.
Killing.
Stealing.
Bearing false witness.
Defrauding others
Religious duties have little or no impact on one’s salvation. It does not matter whether one:
Worships Yahweh, or another God, or a Goddess, or perhaps no God at all.
Creates statues and other images and bowing down in front of them.
Takes the name of Yahweh in vain.
Does not keep Saturday, the Sabbath day, holy.
Jesus taught that salvation is purely a matter of the balance between ones good and bad works. A person’s beliefs and practices concerning God do not matter. Thus, followers of any religion – or none – have an opportunity to go to Heaven/be saved. The only criteria for salvation are the acts that one performs which involve other persons – particularly one’s parents, the disadvantaged etc.
@Messenger:
Many additional verses in the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke reinforce the concept of salvation by good works only:
Luke 10:25-27:
This passage gives Jesus’ precise response to a lawyer who asked what one must do to inherit eternal life; i.e. to attain salvation and spend eternity in heaven. Jesus had him recite “The Law” from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) which requires a person to:Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. This is a slight misquotation from Deuteronomy 6:5:
“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.” (NKJ)Love their neighbor as they love themselves.
This is derived from Leviticus 19:18: “You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself…” (NKJ)
The lawyer then asked the obvious question: who is my neighbor? The Leviticus passage implied that one’s neighbors are restricted to one’s own nation or tribe. Jesus disagreed with the passage in Deuteronomy, and responded with the well-known Parable of the Good Samaritan, which indicates that all humans are one’s neighbors.
The parable describes a man who had been attacked by robbers and left half dead. Two Jewish religious leaders come upon the man: a priest and a Levite. The Jewish law forbids holy men from touching a dead person; it would be an act of ritual impurity, a serious defilement.
They walk on the other side of the road to avoid any contact with the victim. A Samaritan comes by, bandages the man’s wounds and helps him to a place where he can recover. The Jews of the day despised the Samaritans, regarding them as semi-pagan, inferior and persons of little worth.
Jesus told the lawyer to be more like the Samaritan than like the Levite and Priest. That is, to make compassion for others the highest priority in life, and to downgrade religious rules and regulations to a lower level of importance.
Jesus makes clear in this passage that one attains eternal life in heaven by loving God and loving all humans, particularly the poor, needy and broken.
Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” . The Amplified Bible defines “poor in spirit” as being humble and rating themselves as insignificant.
Matthew 5:10: “Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” The Amplified Bible defines “righteousness” as being and doing right.
Matthew 5:20: “…unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven”.
The Rheims New Testament translates the Greek as”unless your justice abound more…”.
Matthew 7:12: “…do onto others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” One might assume that by following this “Golden rule”, one meets all of the requirements of the Hebrew scriptures, and thus might be saved.
Matthew 16:27: “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” (NKJ)
@Messenger:
Matthew 19:16-17 “Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, ‘Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?’…Jesus replied…If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
Jesus then repeated 5 as being of particular importance (Commandments 5 to 9 Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Baha’i s, Buddhists, Hindus etc from Exodus 20:12-16) and added a new commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself” 4 of the 6 involve actions to avoid; the remaining two list who one is to love.
Jesus then goes further and urges the man to sell his possessions, and give the money to the poor, so that he would have “treasure in heaven.”
Matthew 24:45-51: In this passage, Jesus tells a parable about an evil overseer who beats his fellow slaves. His master comes back at an unexpected time and “and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.” (ASV)
This implies that when Christ returns, individuals who treat others with consideration will be rewarded (presumably with access to the Kingdom of God).
An evil person who treats others poorly or is a drunk will be punished (presumably by denying them access).
Mark 9:42-48: Jesus recommends that if one’s hand or foot or eye cause them to commit a sinful act, then they should cut off the offending member. Verse 47 says:”…It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell…”
Mark 10:17-25: This is essentially identical to Luke 18, which is described below.
Mark 12:32-34: A man said that to love God and one’s neighbor is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jesus replied in Verse 34 “…You are not far from the kingdom of God.”
This implies that if one loves God and humanity, then they are close to salvation.
Luke 13:27 “Away from me, all youevildoers” The Amplified Bible renders this word as wrongdoers. The verse describes how people will be turned away from the Kingdom of God, because of their evil behavior and wrongdoing.
Luke 18:18-22 This is similar to Matthew 19, except that the advice to sell everything and give the proceeds to the poor is not an optional add-on but a requirement.
Luke 19:8-9: “And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord, Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor, and if I havewrongfully exacted aught of any man, I restore fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham.”(ASV)
Zacchaeus cares about others, giving half of his possession to the poor. And he is honest: if he shortchanges anyone, he returns the shortage four times over. Jesus indicates that because of these two acts of kindness and generosity, he has been saved.
Matthew 19:27-30: Peter had said that he and the rest of the disciples had left everything to follow Jesus. He asked what would happen to them. Jesus replied that his followers would sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Verse 29 continues:
“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.” (Some ancient manuscripts of Luke said “everyone who has left…mother or wife”).
Mark 10:28-30: This is similar to Matthew 19:27-30; Luke 9:59-62: “Then He said to another, ‘Follow Me.’ But he said, ‘Lord, let me first go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.’ And another also said, ‘Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.’ But Jesus said to him, ‘No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.'” (NKJ)
Jesus seems to be implying that to attain the kingdom of God, one is expected to drop everything and follow Jesus. This was so important that a person should violate a Jewish laws by not giving priority to burying their father.
@Messenger:
Revelation 20:11-15 refers in two places to how everyone is judged according to their works – their deeds performed while alive on Earth. It supports the concept of all people being judged according to their works, as recorded in books in Heaven:
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
“Behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me, to render to each man according to his works” (Revelation 22:12).
Many passages in James also supports salvation through works. Centuries later, Martin Luther demoted the book to a mere appendix at the end of the Christian Scriptures, because of its emphasis on works.
Consider James 1:27:
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”
Messenger,
[ “In one comment she also claimed to “have much,” and she added, ” and I mean much personal experience with God talking to people.” Ricardo, if God spoke to someone who teaches his word instructs people not to believe in Christ, who might that person be? “]
Please re-read what I in fact stated rather than distorting my statements to suit your agenda:
http://jwsurvey.org/news/must-watch-australian-reality-tv-captures-the-moment-a-jehovahs-witness-mother-abandons-her-son/comment-page-1#comments :
dee2 on February 13, 2017 at 4:21 pm
Messenger,
So I looked up the definition of
Ass-u-me and this is what it states:
Ass-u-me:
Makes an ASS of U and ME.
How do you know that I am assuming and that I do not have any experience with whether or not God speaks to anyone?
It is because of having lots, and I mean lots of personal experience of this in my own life and having observed what has transpired in the lives of others why I came to this conclusion. On coming to this conclusion I then realized that it is I who has to figure out what I need to do from day to day.
Further consider the claims of people who assert that God speaks to them…………………”
Is he there or isn’t he ? No one can say definitively because verifiable
evidence cannot be found, the absence of which favours the doubters.
Ted,
It seems to me that there are two separate issues for debate here:
1) God’s existence
2) If God does exist, does he intervene in the natural world? Does he contact/communicate with humans?
God’s existence is debatable.
He may exist but does he speak to anyone? Does he contact/communicate with anyone?
The evidence shows that God does not interfere in the natural world, he does not contact/communicate with humans. Some persons take this lack of communication from God to mean that he does not exist.
Here’s an interesting discussion regarding whether the God of christian theism exists:
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5179858797723648/this-what-would-need-order-believe?page=1&size=10:
“If the god of christian theism did exist a lot of simple things would just make more sense.
The evidence would not show beyond all doubt that the diversity of life rested on millions of years of relentless competition, death and destruction. Life would not have been all but wiped out in mass extinctions at least five times in its history.
The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.
The bible really would contain prophecies that could be verified using objective historical evidence. It wouldn’t be necessary to rip verses out of context and interpret ambiguous phrases to try to make details fit post hoc..
The bible would contain useful information that people could not have known at the time it was written.
The ethics of scripture would be enlightening and uplifting without exception. It would condemn things like slavery unambiguously and champion the rights and equality of women. It would not advocate moral evils that need to be explained away with appeals to relativism and special pleading.
Miracles would really happen – even now in the age of CCTV, smart phones and scientific enquiry. It would require stubbornness rather than healthy skepticism to deny them.
Natural disasters would not kill millions of earth’s inhabitants. The planet would not be designed to destroy life.
Prayers would get answered reliably. Confirmation bias would not be necessary. The prayers of believers would have real and observable power.
There is so much more detail I could add to this, but in summary it would be more difficult to reject the claims of christianity than to accept them. It is not too much to expect that this should be so.”
Since we are talking about bans, we should look at a matter where people are being banned inside the Jehovah’s Witnesses for wearing certain types of clothes.
Anthony Morris III has declared that anyone dressing in tight pants or the “Metro-sexual” look would be banned from going out preaching.
Jesus Christ stated and declared that his followers should preach without any conditions. No mention of clothing attire in his proclamation.
Whose right? Jesus Christ, God’s son (a.k.a. Master). Or, Anthony Morris III, slave. Is a slave greater than his master?
Really. Does Anthony Morris III overrule Jesus Christ’s preaching order in this case? Should Christians really follow someone who is out of alignment?
Anthony Morris III is a looser.
And I meant looser. Not ‘loser’. He wears loose pants. He should be known as Loose Pants Tony.
I’m with Einstein the father of modern physics.
He said the Bible contained “Primitive and pretty
childish tales.” Pretty good company I’d say!
messenger has said that he has college degrees and has taught about 80,000 people, let alone being called by God and chosen by God and God has spoken to him by dreams.
I looked at his comments about his dreams but I don’t get how that proves that there is an invisible god that created the heavens and the earth out of absolutely nothing at all.
We dream all night long but it’s the ones we were dreaming when we woke up are the ones we remember. Last night I dreamed about one of my cats an my late husband and the dream seemed real but in my dream my husband might have killed one of our cats. It was just a dream. When I woke up my husband was still dead and my cat is still alive. It was just a dream and I didn’t read anything in to it at all but to messenger when he has a dream, he believes God is trying to tell him something but as I read about his dreams, I didn’t see what those dreams meant at all. If messenger can come on here and explain his dreams and what they mean, I would appreciate that and especially how your dreams prove that the creator of the universe was speaking to you personally and all the while, letting millions of children die from starvation in favor of talking only to you.
Also, I am still waiting to hear what your history is with the JW’s. We all have experiences but you never talk about any of your experiences like in the ministry or giving talks or anything.
Caroline,
I’m no medical doctor but based on what messenger stated he experienced:
http://jwsurvey.org/australian-royal-commission/case-study-54-analysis-begins/comment-page-1#comments:
[ “In the last dream I was standing up, not walking, but floating down to the ground as if on an invisible and very smooth operating escalator……… Seeing some floating object a few inches above you, that quickly moves off you when you wake up, and floats.” ]
it seems to me that his brain temporarily misfired and he experienced a mild and temporary form of temporal lobe epilepsy.
The symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy often include experiencing a sense of floating or flying.
Temporal Lobe Epilepsy Symptoms:
Vivid sensory hallucinations – the affected individuals might see bright, shining forms and landscapes, hear voices, experience a sense of floating or flying, or experience all of these at once, depending on where in the temporal lobes the electrical instability occurs and how far it spreads.
The following is an article about temporal lobe epilepsy as it relates to religious/spiritual experiences:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/#part3:
Within the temporal lobes of the brain is an evolutionarily ancient region called the limbic system. The main function of this system is to produce and control emotions.
In particular, one important task which the limbic system performs is to “tag” sensory input with emotional significance, enabling us to determine the meaning that a person or object holds for us. When this function is disabled by brain damage, the result is Capgras’ syndrome.
As with many brain structures, we know the function of the limbic system mostly by observing what happens to people in whom it is defective. Specifically, we have observed the symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy, a condition characterized by erratic storms of random neural firing that occur in this part of the brain.
When such seizures occur in areas dedicated to motor control, the result is the most well-known symptoms of epilepsy, the physical fits and powerful involuntary muscular contractions typical of so-called grand mal seizures. But when seizures occur predominantly in the temporal lobes and thus the limbic system, the predominant effects are not physical, but emotional. Patients say that their “feelings are on fire” (Ramachandran 1998, p. 179), fluctuating wildly from soaring heights of ecstasy to paralyzing depths of terror and fury.
In addition, there is another symptom frequently associated with temporal lobe epilepsy. Sufferers of the condition are often hyperreligious: they claim to have profound spiritual and mystical experiences during their seizures; they are obsessively preoccupied with theological issues, churning out meticulously detailed, elaborate and usually incomprehensible text explaining their beliefs (a condition calledhypergraphia); they see cosmic significance in trivial everyday events; and they may believe they were visited by God or in God’s presence, or that they have been “chosen” (Ramachandran 1998, p. 179-180).
Distortions of time and space, including out-of-body experiences, often also occur (Persinger 1987, p.123; Newberg and D’Aquili 2001, p. 110). The novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky, who is believed to have been a temporal lobe epileptic, wrote that he “touched God” during his seizures (Holmes 2001, p. 27).
Temporal Lobe Epilepsy cont’d – 1:
To most people with normal mental functioning, it is obvious that the hyperreligious behavior of some temporal lobe epileptics is merely one symptom of a treatable disorder, not a sign of special favor from God.
However, the conviction produced in those who experience these events is unshakable. And besides, if one believes that God exists and may occasionally speak to human beings, then on what grounds can we be certain that these people are not actually communicating with him? The nebulous and unfalsifiable world of theistic belief offers no way to exclude this possibility. As Dr. Ramachandran astutely puts it:
“Who is to say whether such experiences are ‘genuine’ (whatever that might mean) or ‘pathological’? Would you, the physician, really want to medicate such a patient and deny visitation rights to the Almighty?” (p. 179)
Still, a theist might ask what relevance this phenomenon holds for the rest of us. Although most people, including most theists, are not temporal lobe epileptics, the relevance of finding a brain region associated with religious experiences is obvious. Indeed, while most religious people are not temporal lobe epileptics, most religious people also do not have spiritual experiences as intense as those of epileptics.
However, we do all have temporal lobes. Could transient and sporadic patterns of firing within them that do not rise to the level of a seizure produce the lower-key, less elaborate religious beliefs and experiences that most people take for granted?
Such is exactly the hypothesis of neuroscientist Dr. Michael Persinger, who has dubbed these patterns of activation temporal lobe transients, or TLTs for short (Persinger 1987, p. 111). Under this theory, TLTs are short-lived electrical instabilities – microseizures – that occur within the temporal lobes of normal individuals and are triggered by a variety of conditions including physical and mental stress (such as grief, fatigue, anxiety, hypoglycemia, or hypoxia), ritualized behavior, loud rhythmic sound patterns such as singing, clapping or chanting, or the ingestion of certain chemicals. TLTs produce feelings of meaningfulness, conviction and anxiety reduction, and are complemented by the conditioned patterns of learning and reinforcement called organized religion.
Though TLTs have not yet been directly measured due to their unpredictable nature, there is good circumstantial evidence in favor of their existence. Dr. Persinger notes that tissues of the temporal lobes display more electrical instability than any other part of the brain (p. 15). In addition, their mere existence in epileptics gives us good reason to suspect they occur in normal individuals as well. “There is nothing unusual about studying the exception in order to find the rule” in neurology (p. 17), and if TLTs behave like other phenomena, in the population at large they will be distributed along a statistical continuum. Most of us would have small ones perhaps once or twice a year; a smaller number of people would have them more frequently. And at the highest and rarest end of the scale would be those who have frequent and intense bursts of temporal activity – the temporal lobe epileptics.
Temporal Lobe Epilepsy cont’d – 2:
We can make other predictions from this hypothesis. The temporal lobes contain projections to all the sensory areas – vision, hearing, taste and smell, even the vestibular regions (the sense of balance).
The most intense TLTs could potentially spread into these regions, producing vivid sensory hallucinations – the affected individuals might see bright, shining forms and landscapes, hear voices, experience a sense of floating or flying, or experience all of these at once, depending on where in the temporal lobes the electrical instability occurs and how far it spreads. These symptoms often occur in temporal lobe epilepsy. Milder TLTs, such as the kind that occur in most people, would not produce these experiences, but would be more subtle and abstract.
Depending on their extent, some might be “mild cosmic highs, the kind we feel in the early morning hours when a hidden truth becomes sudden knowledge. Other more intense transients would evoke the peak experiences of life and determine it thereafter. They would involve religious conversions, rededications, and personal communions with God” (Persinger 1987, p. 16). Like all TLTs, they would be followed by marked reductions in anxiety and positive expectations for the future. In any case, there is no fundamental difference between the seizures of temporal lobe epileptics and the temporal lobe transients experienced by ordinary people – the difference is a matter of degree, not of kind.
Empirical support for this hypothesis comes in the form of experiments conducted by Dr. Persinger himself. We cannot predict natural temporal lobe transients, so it is difficult to precisely measure their effects – but what if we could produce artificial ones on demand?
This is exactly what Dr. Persinger has done, by constructing what some have dubbed the “God helmet”. It is an ordinary motorcycle helmet fitted with solenoids which, when worn, produce a complex magnetic field designed to interact with and stimulate the temporal lobes of the brain. Four out of five people who undergo this experience report sensing a “presence” in the room with them, one which religious individuals frequently identify as that of God (Holmes 2001, p. 28).
Of course, a theist might argue that all we have found is a way to tap into the same channels that God normally uses to communicate with us. This is a religious hypothesis, outside the realm of science, and strictly speaking cannot be disproven. However, there are several considerations that weigh against it.
First of all, it is unparsimonious, containing extra assumptions that do not increase its explanatory power. We know for a fact that religious sensations can be produced by stimulating certain areas of the brain; we do not know for a fact that such sensations are actually caused by a deity stimulating those areas. The atheist’s explanation that such sensations arise from ordinary neurological activity and nothing more suffices, so why not just stop there? To insist on complicating this perfectly sufficient explanation with extra assumptions is a step that cannot be justified by the evidence, but can only be supported by preconceived faith commitments.
Consider a believer in UFOs arguing that yes, all the photos we have of alleged extraterrestrial spacecraft are fakes, but aliens do exist – they manufactured the fakes themselves to inspire us to keep searching for them. Phrased this way, the absurdity is obvious, but some theists would make an equivalent argument for God.
Temporal Lobe Epilepsy cont’d – 3:
Secondly, the idea of God communicating to humans by activating specific pathways in the brain seems theologically problematic.
Certainly the fact that these mystical sensations can be artificially reproduced should be troubling to the believer. Why would God make it possible for himself to be counterfeited?
For God to communicate with us through a specific pathway of the brain leaves open the possibility that other causes can hijack this pathway and delude people with false visions that they genuinely believe to originate with God. (This, of course, is exactly what happens in temporal lobe epilepsy – again, unless one chooses to believe that God genuinely is speaking to these people.) It cannot be considered fair for God to create our brains in such a way as to leave people vulnerable to false revelations indistinguishable from the genuine article and then condemn them for being unable to tell the difference.
Thirdly, what if this “God-communication” pathway is damaged? Would such people no longer be able to hear God’s voice at all? And if so, would it be fair for God to condemn them if they ceased to follow his commands simply because they could no longer perceive them? Dr. Ramachandran speculates on just such a topic:
“What would happen to the patient’s personality – especially his spiritual leanings – if we removed a chunk of his temporal lobe? …. Would he suddenly stop having mystical experiences and become an atheist or an agnostic? Would we have performed a ‘Godectomy’?” (Ramachandran 1998, p. 187).
Indeed, such a situation can happen naturally. Alzheimer’s disease, for example, tends to attack and damage the limbic system early on – and therefore it can be no coincidence that loss of religious interest is a frequent symptom of its onset (Holmes 2001, p. 27). Why would God create and then inflict on people a disease that robs them of the ability to hear and respond to him? Would such an individual be punished for nonbelief upon their death?
A theist might argue that such an individual’s situation is not nearly so dire. An omnipotent god would undoubtedly retain the ability to communicate with them and make himself heard if he so desires, even if that person’s temporal lobes are damaged. This is true, but brings us right back to the original question: Why create a “God-communication” module in the human brain in the first place? The atheist’s explanation remains the most plausible: that this brain module is an evolutionary legacy, a part of our brains that first evolved either for some unknown adaptive purpose or as a spandrel, and that persists today and produces the sensations that our culture conditions people to interpret as the presence of a deity. In short, the evidence suggests that God is all in our minds.
@dee2,
You can type really fast.
dee2
Possibly a cut paste job?
Small minds attack people, not ideas.
I wonder which part of the crowd you’d be in if present during Christ’s crucifixion. Which side dee2? You can openly tell us.
Nothing needs to be proved here except in inner feelings of our hearts. And those feelings will not be hidden.
messenger
messenger, don’t discount what dee2 has posted here. You even said that you were going through a tough period of your life when you had those experiences.
When I was in my early 30’s, I was going in service a lot and reading the Bible a lot and had Bible studies that I was preparing for and I thought that God was telling me that I was going to heaven when I died.
The feeling was so strong and finally I told my husband and he was actually embarrassed for me because the Society teaches that only those who have been in the “truth” for many years would be called to heaven to be kings and priests and judges over the earth and after all I was “only” a woman.
The feeling didn’t just go away though and he did not allow me to tell the elders of my feelings but those feelings were there every bit as much as those of the Governing Body claim that they have.
Most people who are Bible readers of the Greek Scriptures will feel that God is speaking to them because the New Testament is directed to those who believe in Christ Jesus and the New Testament points to an afterlife with the resurrection of Jesus to heaven.
My feeling of God’s communicating to me that I was going to heaven when I died did not just go away. What helped me is an intense study of the history of how we got the Bible etc. which there are literally dozens of really good youtube videos and books on the subject.
We were always told that the Bible is God’s inspired word and I believed it. To me, it was God talking to me and I felt so close to that God. When I started taking it apart and actually paying attention to what it said instead of the good feelings I had about the God who I imagined to be a perfect god of love and justice, I began to realize that the God that I imagined was only that. That god was in my head.
I could never imagine worshipping a god who would accept human sacrifices such as Jephthah did with his daughter and neither does a normal person and that is why the Society rewrote that part of the Bible to make us think that Jehovah did not accept Jephthah’s daughter as a burnt human sacrifice so that Jephthah could go and slaughter thousands and thousands of men, women and children (which was fine with God I guess) if he promised Jehovah that the first thing that came out of his house, Jephthah would give to Jehovah as a burnt sacrifice. What did Jephthah think would be the first thing that would come out of house would be, a chicken?
The Society is devious when they rewrote the King James Bible. If you read the King James Bible, you will see an entirely different God than the one that the Society created and you might lose those fuzzy warm feelings that you have right now towards Jehovah.
Messenger,
Please specifically indicate where I attacked you in what I stated if that is what you are claiming.
I simply compared YOUR description of what you experienced when you had your alleged inspired dream(s), to the neurological and hyper-religious behavioural symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy and came to my conclusions.
What does Jesus’ crucifixion have to do with the fact that you have exhibited/are exhibiting the neurological and hyper-religious behavioural symptoms consistent with temporal lobe epilepsy as described in the article which I quoted?
Messenger, friend, you’ve been continually demanding ‘facts’ not ‘feelings’ here. Now you’re saying nothing needs to be proved here except inner feelings and those feelings will not be hidden?????
Come on, man…… you’re as inconsistent as the Bible.
Did you honestly think you could make claims of being contacted by god and that you see yourself as a messenger, a modern day Moses of sorts, without being questioned as to your credentials. And not only that, you’ve crowned yourself King of Comments on this site and claim a trail of battered, bruised and bewildered opponents. I would say that most people here just can’t be bothered with protracted debate and just drop out. You then view that as a victory. You say you’ve had to fire people for unsatisfactory performance. Fair enough, so you’ll understand why I fired you for the same reason.
You’re right in pointing out my comment to you after addressing Caroline was an irrational one. I do that sometimes.
Best wishes all the same and I hope that one day get to meet your god.
outandabout
I don’t look at myself as the “king of comments” here outandabout. But unlike WS I retain a Bible based view and that effects my comments. That view means I don’t have respect for the opinions of people who speak contrary to God’s will and his stated purpose in the Bible. God and Christ didn’t give people a right to do that, just because he gave them that ability. And God and Christ never respected persons’ (human or otherwise) views who did that. I speak Christ and his father.
So, if I make it known that in some of your positions you take an illogical approach, that’s what you’ll have to live with as long as I choose to comment here, you read my comments, unless you can get such comments banned. So, stop crying in your beard. about messenger hurting your feelings.
Believing that all positions are equally valid, which even all of you don’t, just results in the types of dissensions expressed on this site, as well as one of reasons for inflicted sufferings on humans by humans, because know one really believes that, and some peoples have devious opinions leading to their devious actions.
Christ definitely said he was the way. Choosing any other way leads to this result, the result we have here, the result of WT, the result of this world’s problems.
God does allow us the privilege of choice. Pay your money, and take your choice. You’ll gain a reward to match your choice.
I see you getting nothing better than WT at times, and at other times conditions a lot worse. WT is not the most despicable group on this planet. So, how do you suggest to get rid of the rest? And do you expect to live long enough to do it?
@ Caroline
Thank you for your concern about me. But I cannot say emphatically enough, I’ve been contacted. I don’t have a feeling about it other than a appreciation for the concern shown. My belief is not based on a feeling, nor is it based on the Bible. If I came to your house and spoke to you, and you saw me there, you would know I was there. That’s the sort of experiences I had, ones that were easily seen, really seen, but ones where I was not visited on by a human. Dee2’s so called analysis of what she knows nothing about is not relevant. She only references some other peoples experiences, believe me, she knows nothing about mine. And I don’t believe your knowledge about how the Bible came to us is accurate. If it can be proven to be faulty that info would have been common knowledge a long time ago. Nevertheless my experiences were not feelings about the Bible.
outandabout
In our arguments to find the truth facts or the most relevant, definitely over feeling, you’re right. As a matter of fact ZI remember telling some one here, maybe you, that know one cares how you feel about God but you and God.
But those feelings are important to you and God, and that’s what I referred to. The feelings you have for or against God, according to the Bible will mean the difference between your life and death. That’s what I meant. So, according to the Bible your feelings are very important. Though those are not useful in a debate. Do you understand?
outandabout
1st sentence- or=are
3rd sentence- ZI=I
outandabout
If you fired me, then why are you still talking? Think about your statement.
@Messenger,
Disclaimer: I have not gotten through the protracted comments at his point and I am zeroing in on one specific statement, ok?
You said “That view means I don’t have respect for the opinions of people who speak contrary to God’s will and his stated purpose in the Bible.”
Since all men are said to have been created in God’s image, they all deserve your respect, even if you disagree with their theology. Jesus respected all men, even those who executed them, see 1 Peter 2:23 (I am sure you know what it says without having to look).
Perhaps you will argue that it’s the opinon you don’t respect as opposed to the person in of themselves. But that’s a pretty fine line.
My two cents, that’s all.
WS
Dee2
I don’t have the inclination to read what I consider ridiculously long comments here. You might have some people who do, but I don’t. If you expect me to read your comments, I might if those were shorter. I do read some. And I do skim read some of yours.
I don’t want to enter into some long debate with you. And I do hope the best happens to both you and Caroline. It’s never my wish that you suffer anything.
To end this discussion let me explain why, from my perspective, your view is terribly flawed. Some of these reason apply to other commenters also. I see you guys commenting in ignorance that’s based on limited knowledge, the same type of limits I used to have.
1) Even though you believe you know a lot, compared to all knowledge that is you know just a spec. And that applies to all humanity. But, you make great boasts because of that spec you know. God’s word comments on men’s boasts of knowledge. You have no idea of what really exists beyond the confines of your limited perceptions.
Imagine if you lived in a two dimensional universe, one that was unable to see into a our three dimensional universe. Now imagine you basing what’s here on that limited knowledge. Your assumptions would be ridiculous about our reality. You would make statements without knowing anything about it. And that’s how I see your reasoning. Your claims about reality are meaningless, for you know too little about it. Even science admits that, and yet you depend on their knowledge as if they know. Their claim is they don’t. But your claim is, let’s believe only what they, scientists, can test. Ridiculous, they cannot test most of what exists, and they admit to that.
2) Your assertion that God must perform deeds in a way you think he should or must do is stupid to me. Caroline told me whose comment I should completely read, and what was my reaction? What do you think God’s reaction is to you? He does what he wants, when he wants, with whom he wants. Your beliefs about his actions mean no more to him than Caroline’s beliefs about what I should do mean to me.
3) When God communicates with people he makes it perfectly clear what took place. He’s God. Since he gave us the ability to communicate he also has that ability, but much better. God communicates in ways that are much more effective than human communications.
I used to be like you. So I don’t blame you for looking for alternative explanations for what happened to Bible characters and others like me. Yet I see that in your search for those alternative explanations you insist experiences must be explained according to a world that you know, and that scientists know. An irrational assumption, because of what I listed in item #1, humanity’s knowledge is so limited.
You don’t believe me dee2. It’s a choice. Everything here, in this world, is a choice. My knowledge about my experience is not a choice for me. Neither was it the result of anything you researched, or you can know about through scientific research. I told you early on that it was beyond coincidence or scientific explanation. I could not reveal everything to you. How can anyone fully describe being somewhere, and the details about it, or the full details about any experience? Not even the world’s best writers can do that. So how can you understand my experience, or whether or not I saw my future? My statement to you was in one experience I saw a future that came true. Your assumptions about that are faulty. But it’s not my desire to prove that to you. You make your choice. We all do. And you choose to believe those who wrote the Bible, or not to believe, it’s your choice. I’m not asking you to believe it’s your choice.
Your so called analyzes of the experiences to me are ridiculous, because I know what happed, you don’t. Most of the ones you write to, like yourself, have no experience with anything not commonly experienced in this reality. Like Bible characters God has supplied proof to me, not to you, what that reality was. Keep writing, your readers have nothing to judge your so called knowledge on but your assumptions and this worlds limited shared knowledge. If they accept those its their choice.
Nevertheless, I know God does reveal the future to some people, the dimension of time doesn’t restrain him, and he does show the future to some. Eventually you’ll know what I know. You keep inquiring why he doesn’t tell everyone. He does in time. You might die first, but eventually you’ll know God exists.
He didn’t just show me that he exists for that purpose though. And I hope that’s not all he shows you. He showed me I will be alive and content in my future when/where dead people are alive. He showed me he cares for me enough to show me my future now, and not make me wait to see it like most people must.
Messenger,
Your responses have certainly proven my “ridiculously long comments” true as your reactions have confirmed the findings of the various clinicians:
“the conviction produced in those who experience these events is unshakable…….they may believe they were visited by God or in God’s presence, or that they have been “chosen”. ”
So I do not expect you to react differently, however, if I were you, I would not allow the need for a sign of special favour from God to prevent me from visiting the doctor to see if there is anything I need to be concerned about after experiencing symptoms consistent with temporal lobe epilepsy.
Again, as I stated before, if indeed it was God who gave you those dreams, then why didn’t he also explain the meaning of the dreams to you? Why did you have to guess/figure out what the dreams meant, make up/invent/create/read into the events your own meaning/interpretation?
Founders of religions such as Ellen G. White (Seventh-Day-Adventists), Joseph Smith (Mormons), Charles Taze Russell (JWs) all claimed to have received revelations/communications from God yet it is puzzling that their religions believe different things. Why isn’t God telling everyone the same thing?
Herein lies the problem with claims of divine contact. Unless you have witnessed such events first hand, it is very unlikely that you will believe someone who claims to have been contacted by God. There are all sorts of crackpots out there and so it is illogical to accept one and not the others, and therefore it logic dictates that all must be rejected.
There are some among us who want to believe in supernatural events and so when they hear of such things they readily accept it. For instance, consider the woman who found an image of the Virgin Mary on her cheese sandwich http://www.beliefnet.com/entertainment/books/2010/02/jesus-in-food-and-other-objects.aspx?p=3
From this I can only deduce that if God does contact anyone directly, then it is only for the benefit of that person and others would not be expected to believe it or need to do so.
WS
@WS
According to scripture Winston sometimes these contacts are primarily for the benefit of the individual persons; “God’s spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are his children.” But in many recorded instances in the Bible millions benefit from them, because those others believe in those events. To a lesser degree some believe in those similar experiences visited on others today, ones that are shared. So if shared all these experiences have a potential to affect others.
Hi messenger…..considering there’s a tiny peep of contrition in your posts I’ve decided to un-fire you and will agree that God has contacted you in a dream if you’ll agree that He will unleash Armageddon in a dream as well. He seems to work that way. Nothing ever concrete, just all fuzzy, wispy and oh so mysterious. That way, everything remains in the desired un-provable state.
The bible was written by believers. I have to wonder what the result would have been if, in a sense of fairness, the writers were 50/50 believers and non-believers.
What would the police forces would be like if they were permitted to conduct their own internal reviews? Fairly corrupt, huh?
Human nature was the same in biblical times as it is now.
Dee2, According to the WT February 2017 par.12, p.26 – “The Governing Body (GB) is neither inspired nor infallible.” i to saw this as i was killing time during the WT, i’d like to hear comments on why would they say that, i know its true, but again why, how do they get the idea’s for talks & publications, oh do they make it up, they used to say they were inspired by God & Christ, comments please
Whip It, the Society won’t come right out and say they are “inspired” because then they’d be saying what they print is on the same par as the Bible. I don’t know if they early on said they were inspired but as far back as I have been in the “truth” (1964) they have always admitted they weren’t inspired but all it is is a get out of jail card free for them but they claim to be “spirit directed” which is the same thing only differently worded.
If you look at the old books from Rutherford, you can see all they do is recycle old articles and books and try and keep up with current “light” is all they do and keep throwing in articles about the “end” and keeping ready etc. with a few of the same old scriptures over and over again. That is all they do.
The assemblies are the same as what they get at meetings and service. I remember always wanting to hear something new and different at assemblies but it was always the same thing over an over again and the reason the Society does that (they say it’s good) over and over again is to make it stick in our minds so we didn’t forget it but all it is is brainwashing but they said it was good to have our brains “washed”. They actually admit to brainwashing as a good thing.
Remember “that is what some of us were”….
I never was a bad person before becoming a Witness and I always resented being told that “that is what I was” before coming into the “truth” and now I was a good person once I came into the “truth” but before becoming a Witness I was a good person.
I was a good person before I became a Witness and I am still a good person after I left. In fact I am a better person since I left because now I donate to actual charities when before I was not allowed to do that. I was only allowed to give to Watchtower before.
In all the reading I’ve done WT has never claimed to have inspired writings. Which writings are you referring to when you say, “they used to say” that?
I’ve read Russell never claimed supernatural contact. But if I remember correctly, I believe I read Rutherford and Franz did. Though I never read where they claimed their writings were inspired.
What WT means is it as an organization is led, in the sense of being motivated to act, by God’s holy spirit. That does not mean they always do what he wants. They feel the general direction the organization moves in has God’s favor, because he motivates them to go that way.
Yes, they like everyone else reason on scriptures to interpret those. But they feel what I said in the paragraph above moves them to come to an understanding over time of God’s will. Really they believe what most other churches do in that sense They claim there’s a difference, but that’s just a claim. Most Christian teachers believe the same thing.
Hi Whip It,
– Charles Taze Russell claimed that God spoke to him and revealed things to him.
At a sermon delivered by Russell in 1913, in San Francisco at a convention of Bible Students, Russell publicly stated:
“I said that I had been in conference with the Great Master Workman, the Lord himself, and I have secret information through the Holy Spirit and guidance in respect to what the Bible says, and that contains all the truth, I believe, on every subject.”
http://ctr-rlbible.com/?p=233
As we know, Russell’s end of the world predictions did not come true.
– Lloyd (Cedars) did a YouTube video about the WT February 2017 article:
“The Governing Body: Neither Inspired Nor Infallible?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NRcFffZGJfk
There are also discussions about the WT February 2017 article in other ex-JW forums as well.
Caroline, many thanks for that, i know a lot of Elders claim that they are spirit directed, makes you wonder some times when you see things fail, i can’t stand the way they tear down outsiders, i work with & meet a lot of good people every day, my line of work allows me to have many clients who are mostly wonderful people, i for one don’t judge people, one broth even said from the platform that the org is the only group doing any good to people today.Tonight is the biggy, & they want us to back up on Wednesday nite for the mid week meeting, a lot of Pubs are asking why, i just say vote with your feet & they might get it that people don’t wont to go out every nite.
Hi Whip It,
– Charles Taze Russell claimed that God spoke to him and revealed things to him.
At a sermon delivered by Russell in 1913, in San Francisco at a convention of Bible Students, Russell publicly stated:
“I said that I had been in conference with the Great Master Workman, the Lord himself, and I have secret information through the Holy Spirit and guidance in respect to what the Bible says, and that contains all the truth, I believe, on every subject.”
http://ctr-rlbible.com/?p=233
As we know, Russell’s end of the world predictions did not come true.
– Lloyd (Cedars) did a YouTube video about the WT February 2017 article:
“The Governing Body: Neither Inspired Nor Infallible?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NRcFffZGJfk
There are also discussions about the WT February 2017 article in other ex-JW forums as well.
There was a time when people were able to concoct “medicines” and “remedies” for illness and disease and were making incredible claims as to the efficacy of these substances which many believed in and purchased and of course never reaped any benefit from. So governments regulated these substances and it became necessary to prove the value and quality of the substances via very sophisticated and costly means – Clinical Trials etc – before you could state that the particular medicine was effective for this malady.
Religions make incredible claims too – I surely dont even need to elaborate here. JW Borg is guilty of such claims too. People have made very serious life-changing decisions based on the religions claims – eg Blood transfusions / only channel of God on earth / etc etc/
Maybe its time for some regulation to be introduced to govern religious claims. “You claim it …Now prove it before you can proliferate your teachings/ claims first”.
Ban the WT and its GB, and let the JW have their little bible study groups without the WT influence that will be a good thing.
ban preaching the hate that the WT inflicts on everyone, they are an evil cult.
The GB continue to put themselves above the law of the land we have seen this with the ARC just for starters, now the Russian gov says any propaganda or putting oneself above all others is not permitted, what part of that doesn’t the GB understand they say they are the only true religion and everyone other is of the Devil and will be destroyed including those of the religion.
JW do not preach tolerance, love and acceptance but want the Russian gov to be tolerant and accepting of them, human rights on may say, well they give none to any JW that disagrees, none to any kids raped they are an evil hypocritical lying cult period.
They want to be treated fairly they have rights, well not according to the Russian constitution if you can call it that, no religion to put themselves above others the GB have denied themselves any human rights by disregarding the law.
Totalitarian control is abhorrent, but as outandabout
intimated. If JW, was the major religion in Russia that’s
exactly what you would have.
In the Flock Book under “Offences requiring judicial-
decisions” we come to Apostasy p65, and listed under
that heading are. Celebrating false religious holidays,
Participating in interfaith activities, and Deliberately
spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by
Jehovahs witnesses.–>
So everything religious outside their org, is false and
any one refusing to bend to that diktat will receive
judicial punishment.- A cutting off from friends and family.
Pure totalitarian control !
The level of hypocrisy is breath taking, the following is
part of their appeal to Putins Gov.
“Jehovahs Witnesses sincerely hope that fair minded
officials will defend the basic human right to freedom of
worship and fair trial, as guaranteed by Russia’s inter-
national agreement.”
Forgive me guys for wanting to speak about the ban and not about the bible.
Lloyd Evans,Covert Fade,John Redwood and I’ll mention Paul Grundy as well.
I find it quite hard to believe that all of you set out initially with the same line of thinking regarding the ban.I would probably say as head of jw survey Lloyd started the influencing.I honestly with hand on heart not trying to be disrespectful.We were all influenced at one time in our lives,many still are with dominant positions.
Covert Fade,this article and your points look good on paper but so would the points of view from the opposite side.Maybe it’s a case that you all feel more intellectual sticking together and forming a clique way of thinking,maybe deep down you should reexamine your thoughts as I have done honestly over and over again and not be influenced on the matter. With all respect M.
I’m not sure how your comment actually addresses any of the points I made in the article? Can you point out any flaws in the arguments I made? I’m happy to read them.
P.S I assure you, I’ve read many pro-ban arguments in detail.
P.P.S If you think Lloyd had the power to influence me in the manner you suggest, you’ve clearly not met me ;)
Mark I don’t understand why you feel we stick together. I see the exact opposite happening here. Commenters constantly disagree with each other. There is no stop to that reality. Just keep reading, and you’ll see. Many commenters also express disagreement with the article writers somewhat regularly. Read and see.
I’m sorry Mark. I see you were talking about the four sticking together, not us the commenters. Sorry for my insert.