XJW: An important new film project, and how YOU can help.

Issues surrounding the Jehovah’s Witness religion are getting increasing media exposure. Recently we have seen films, books, newspaper articles and documentaries, even video games. They have covered every topic imaginable from shunning, to the experience of growing up in the religion, to child abuse and more. Now, a team of filmmakers has a project underway that takes a new lens to an aspect of Jehovah’s Witness life that does not always get much of a spotlight, namely this:

How amazing life is once you leave.

The film is called XJW: Coming Out Of The Jehovah’s Witness Religion, and on the project’s crowdsourcing webpage the filmmakers describe the project as follows:

Ex-JW filmmakers and musicians have come together to capture the unique exit experiences of former members from around the world. Their stories focus on present life philosophies, personal growth and strength on the outside as they reflect on their past.

Director Scott Homan was able to set aside some time to chat with me about the origins and goals of the project, as well as his own journey out of the Witness faith.

From Need Greater To Film Maker

XJW Director Scott Homan

Scott grew up in the Jehovah’s Witnesses. He recounts that in many ways he actually had a very relaxed upbringing when compared to usual Witness standards, citing his parents as being fairly relaxed about the faith. He tells me that, for example, after the Revelation book study he and a few friends would get together for wine and beer, and chat about which parts of the study they did and didn’t believe.

As a result he became very comfortable talking about belief and disbelief, and was already eyeing the faith with a certain sceptical eye. However, he also started hearing the experiences of Witnesses who had travelled from the US to preach in much poorer parts of the world.

Listening to these “Need Greater’s” (a phrase Witnesses use for those who go to preach where the “need is greater” stoked his already burning desire for travel and adventure, especially since none of the other JW career paths such as Bethel or Circuit Work really appealed to him. He went out to Ecuador to be a part of the “Need Greater” work.

Yet far from strengthening his faith, the experience only intensified his doubts and concerns.

He relates how he found the attitudes of some of the other Need Greater’s towards the local population profoundly distasteful. For one thing, the Need Greater’s typically came from rich countries and lived very comfortable, fun lives in Ecuador with lots of toys and gadgets, and seemed to be basically on an extended holiday.

Meanwhile the local congregations were very poor, having to work very long hours simply to make ends meet and provide for their families, and had often sacrificed family and material prosperity to become Witnesses. Yet it was the Need Greater’s who got the prominent tasks in the congregations, and all of the privileges and leadership positions. The locals were not allowed to take the lead or ownership of their own faith.

Scott was disturbed at how many of his fellow Need Greater’s had a contemptuous view of the Ecuadorian Witnesses. He was very interested in other cultures, languages and foods, and says; “The whole point of going abroad is to immerse yourself in, and learn about, another culture. But many of the Need Greater’s looked down on the local Witnesses with contempt.”

The attitude seemed to be that the local culture needed to be overwritten by the Western culture of the Need Greater’s to better allow the locals to serve God. Additionally, Scott relates that the Need Greater’s would hide the alcohol they drank from the local population, for fear that the local Evangelical Christian Missionaries (who were teetotal) might use it against them, which Scott found profoundly hypocritical.

Scott returned from Ecuador, left the faith, and pursued his interest in film making.

During this time, the idea that led to the XJW project was conceived whilst speaking with his friend Soren. Soren is gay, and had also left his religion. As a result, he likes to say that he “came out twice.” This made Scott realise that in some ways, leaving the JW religion held similar risks and experiences to coming out as LGBT. ExJW’s can lose their family and friends, be thrown out of homes, even lose employment if their employers are Witnesses.

“It took a couple of years to capture the concept,” says Scott. “I didn’t want it to be about drama or the things Watchtower says or does – I don’t ever want to read another goddamn thing from Watchtower or the Bible. I wanted to frame it around a positive upbuilding concept – not a dark downbeat version. People who leave the religion are strong and I wanted to show that, to let people say YES, I’m one of those people!”

“ExJW’s leave the religion and then they make this this amazing impact in the world. They are so open and free spirited because they were oppressed for so long. Watchtower controlled how they danced, what movies they watched, what bars they went to, what drugs they took. They were forbidden from being intimate with people. Now they are no longer controlled and are exploring life. Most of all, I want to show how amazing life is. You don’t have to suffer and die under Watchtower control to get happiness in some far off paradise. You can find happiness right here and now.”

ExJW’s supporting XJW

Cassie is the film’s Dialogue Editor

Eric and Cindy of the band HighTV are providing musical composition and post production

Scott’s team are also ExJW’s and have a longstanding link with him.

His dialogue editor, Cassie, was in Scott’s old congregation and has known him since 2008. “She’s part of my chosen family,” says Scott. Cassie saw some of the early material Scott was working on, and was very enthusiastic about it. In the end, Scott and Cassie ended up working together throughout the Christmas week of 2017 to get the trailer for the project assembled.

Also in the team are Eric and Cindy, who are providing the music for the project. Again, Scott also met them during his JW days; when Eric was big in the local Witness music production scene, working with a group called Nuclear Gopher…

…which, as I can’t resist telling Scott, is possibly the best name for a music group I’ve ever heard!

Additional support for the project has come from various other activists and members of the exJW community.

Four separate online activists (EvelynDelOmbre@Evelyndelombre, Stephenie@Apostate Chick, Jennifer@Towersfall and Caleb&Sophia’sMom@jwmom1914) ran a Twitter take-over of the project’s Twitter account xjwdoc@xjwdoc.

The Brighter Light Podcast has also supported the project by contributing B-roll footage for an interview, and Brenton Wildman, another former JW from Scott’s days as a Witness, is also helping with location filming and will be gathering footage in his local area.

Additionally, Jennifer@towersfall is currently running a “Shunned” campaign on Instagram with the XJWdoc Instagram account, where people being shunned can submit a photograph of themselves and a bio of their experience.

But this project needs your help.

XJW: How YOU can help!

Firstly, there are a number of ways you can help for free.

You can follow the project on social media and share updates. The project has a Twitter account, an Instagram account and a Facebook page. Please follow and share them widely!

You can also follow the project on its funding page here. This requires no money on your part and takes only thirty seconds of your time. Simply go to the project’s funding page and click on the follow button, then enter your email address. If the project gets 1000 followers and also reaches 80% of it’s funding goal, it will be eligible for significant extra funding grants that will substantially increase the ability of the team to widen the scope and scale of the project.

The project is also looking for funding and has a crowdsource funding page here. The project needs $9000 total to proceed and needs to get 80% of that total before Friday 12th of April or it will not get any funding at all. At the time of writing it has 34% of its funding goal which is a great start but clearly more is needed.

There are some fantastic rewards for various levels of sponsorship, including access to the project’s musical soundtrack, a hilarious exJW themed card game inspired by the famous Cards Against Humanity (the cards are actually compatible with CAH so you can even give your CAH game an ExJW makeover if you want!). There is even a bit of a loophole in the rewards system, which Scott tells me about;

“If you support the project at the level that gets you either the soundtrack or the card game, those rewards are granted to you instantly. So even if we don’t hit our 80% funding goal you still get your reward, so you might end up getting those rewards for free!”

Personally, I think that Scott and his team have a wonderful vision for this film project; a way of showing a fantastic and positive message to all those who have left the Jehovah’s Witnesses and those who are thinking of leaving. It also helps those who were never JW’s to understand the strong spirit and yearning for freedom that many exJW’s possess, and to understand why so many leave the religion.

So please consider financially supporting this project if you are able to, and please take five minutes to follow the project on its funding page and on social media, which will cost you nothing.

The world needs more projects like this. Let’s make this one happen!

Follow me on Twitter @covertfade

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215 Responses to XJW: An important new film project, and how YOU can help.

  1. Jason Bourne says:

    Here is some covertly-acquired footage of Geoffrey Jackson, immediately after uttering the phrase, “The Bible is OUR Constitution.”


  2. outandabout says:

    Hi Randy….you said “to gain knowledge we need something that is reliable and consistent” That says everything! No more need be said.
    Messenger……does the Earth hang on nothing or is it supported by enormous pillars? Can true believers drink poison and suffer no ill effects? Is the bible the inerrant word of God or are their parts that are not? Which parts then? Please tell. The bible talks out both sides of it’s mouth and by extension the WT must and by extension again, so must you. In other words, your belief system forces you to talk like an idiot. Not my fault so don’t go off your rocker at me.
    No, I’m not gay, am slightly homophobic due to being brought up in a christian society but have never felt any animosity towards them and see no reason to persecute a gay anymore than I would an Autistic person. What about you? Do you have many thoughts that are yours and yours alone?

    • messenger says:

      Please Outy, those words might hurt me if they weren’t so funny. Was it the gay question that got you going?

      While I’m here let me give you biblical answers to some of those questions you keep bringing up. I didn’t answer before because I gave you time to look for answers that are so easy to find. And because they are so easy to find it makes your side look like what it is, ill-informed. It makes you really look ill-informed because you keep asking such simple question like, is the sky blue? Look out the window, and stop expecting me or others to teach you things. Teach yourself.

      But this time here, I will:

      *There are no parts of the Bible that were not inspired by God. There are no parts that contradict other parts. That you believe parts do contradict is because you are ill-informed. Remember the lady here that kept asking the question: “Why doesn’t God tell everyone the same thing?” He does. It’s just that he doesn’t allow some to understand what he’s telling them.

      *Actions you often claim Christians are biblically taught to participate in, like killing homosexuals, you also claimed out of your ignorance. People even casually acquainted with Bible teachings know those are false statements. That’s probably why all Christians on this site let those comments go unrefuted. Those make you look ignorant which serves our purpose. Christ fulfilled the Jewish law. Another way to look at it is his death ended the Jewish law. No Christian in any denomination is biblically under that law. Look up scriptures that state that point yourself. Use a concordance if you need to. Do the work! I don’t often spoon feed people. That’s only good for babies. Get off your rump.

      *The same holds true about your comments about the Earth being flat because of Earth being referred to as having four corners in scripture, or that it’s hung on pillars. Those are metaphors picturing a condition, not a reality. And even a map of the Earth has four corners, doesn’t it? So even when referring to a map of the Earth in reality one can refer to any one or any number of its four corners. Again, those comments from you served our purpose, so we allowed them without response. All Christians now those meanings. So there was probably no harm to baby Christians by those ill-informed comments of yours. We let them slide for that reason. And because it exposed you as having an agenda to take away Christian faith from believers. Again, that served God’s purpose. You exposed yourself.

      * I already addressed your comment about Christians not dying from poison. In reality Paul didn’t die or even get sick after being bitten by a poisonous snake, after being washed up ship wrecked onto an island, though people thought he would die. The quotation by Christ you brought up could have referred to that future incident in a prophetic way, or it could have been an hypothetical anecdotal story, like when Jesus spoke in parables to teach a truth. The truth is all Christians are under God’s protection. And any harm that comes to them is only because God allows it. He only allows it when he chooses to. Otherwise they are protected.

      It was interesting that you didn’t bring up the thoughts around that particular scripture. (Mark 16:9-20)The other thoughts include the risen Jesus appearing, disciples casting out demons, speaking in tongues, healing the sick, and Jesus being taken to heaven. No doubt you concentrated on the drinking of poison because that thought is not brought up in other scriptures. So you probably assumed you had some information to shock the intellect of the ill-informed while those more published miraculous works would not have that same shock value only because those are already known by most people who are even vaguely familiar with scripture. Because casting out a demon, a resurrected Jesus, a Jesus elevated to heaven all are more miraculous than a human surviving poison. Again, you expose your agenda which is to destroy the faith in believers.

      Teachings that hide agenda’s are more dangerous because they can be more effective-like propaganda is. If I wanted you to vote for Donald Trump, and I came out and asked you to inside a rally it would not be as effective as telling you some of the good things he will do, even if those were lies. And while letting you get acquainted with Trump’s agenda take you to a place and condition that is nonthreatening, in an amicable way explain how that will benefit you and other people. My mother in law used to say, “you can catch more bees with honey than vinegar.” I’m not here to catch anyone. I’m not anywhere to catch anyone. I say pay your money and take your choices. I say your should speak to truth, and let others decide from hearing truth. There are a lot of lies coming from your side of the issue, the issue should people follow the Bible. But all is allowed by God. And even you serve his purpose or else he wouldn’t allow you to do what you do.

      Please outy, it hurts so much!!! In fulfillment of God’s purpose Outys says:

      “In other words, your belief system forces you to talk like an idiot. Not my fault so don’t go off your rocker at me.” quote from outandabout (Gen 3:15) How does it feel Outy to take part in a prophecy’s fulfillment?

      In Gen 3:15 God said-” I (God) shall put enmity between your seed and her seed…

      • Debunker says:

        Messenger you said “The truth is all Christians are under God’s protection. And any harm that comes to them is only because God allows it. He only allows it when he chooses to. Otherwise they are protected.”

        Please re-read your comment to see how nonsensical it is. If Christians can come to harm then they have no protection. None. They can all come to harm.

        Trying to argue that the reason an innocent JW died in a car accident on the way to a convention was because God removed his protection just makes God look spiteful and heartless. Why would you serve such a God?

        • messenger says:

          “The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous run and is given protection.” Proverbs 18:9

          ” Pilate said to him: ‘Are you not speaking to me? Do you not know I have authority to release you and I have authority to impale you?’ John 19:10
          “Jesus answered him: ‘You would have no authority over me unless it had been granted to you from above.'” John 19:11″

          “I have made your name known and will make it known in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them…” John 17:26

          “…Holy Father watch over them..” John 17:11
          “When I was with them I used to watch over them…” John 17:12

          ” I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. John 17:15

          [The truth is all Christians are under God’s protection. And any harm that comes to them is only because God allows it. He only allows it when he chooses to. Otherwise they are protected.] messenger’s quote

          That thoughts contained in those scriptures above it as well as other places in the Bible. Also see the first couple chapters of Job, the books of Daniel, Exodus, Esther, Jeremiah, the accounts of early Jewish history, the gospels and Acts of the Apostles, the Psalms written by David, the words repeated to Joshua to be strong in chapter one vs 6 (“Nobody will take a firm stand against you all the days of your life. Just as I proved to be with Moses I shall prove to be with you. I shall neither desert you nor leave you entirely” Joshua 1:5), the accounts of Judges like Gideon and Samson.

          • Debunker says:

            I appreciate the scriptural response, but my point remains valid despite what the Bible says. If anything, the fact that Christians can suffer harm proves those Bible verses wrong!

            Despite the verses saying you will be protected, what kind of protection is it when that protection can be removed on a whim? It is no protection.

            It’s like an employer telling you you have a job for life, unless he decides for any reason beyond your control that you should leave. In which case it’s not a job for life.

            It’s no different to a native American indian doing a raindance to prove he can make it rain, unless it doesn’t.

            The Bible could equally say that a piece of cheese stops the wind from blowing, unless it doesnt, or an earthworm makes sure there’s a good harvest each year, unless it doesn’t.

            To someone with thinking ability being honest with themselves, that whole “he will protect you, unless he doesn’t” concept is simply ridiculous.

          • messenger says:

            Your point could only be valid if you take God’s protection as being limited to physical protection. That too is true, but it’s not primarily protection from physical harm that those scriptures speak. Otherwise no Christian could ever die.

            The primary way God protects is helping Christians remain loyal to him. Satan has no authority to take their faith as long as they are under God’s protection. And scriptures claim no one and also not a thing can separate Christians from God. Of course their personal choice could.

            ‘You would have no authority over me unless it had been granted to you from above.’” Christ John 19:11″

            Christ’s said he watched over his apostles and didn’t lose any, except for one, Judas. What he meant by losing Judas was losing him to Satan’s side of the issue. Judas was not physically hurt when he was lost.

            See 2 Cor 4:16 “even if the man we are on the outside is wasting away the man we are on the inside is being renewed from day to day.”

        • Markie says:

          God removed his protection from them on the way to the assembly because they were not going for the right reasons.

          They were going to see a video on hot screaming lesbians. And to pick up chicks.

      • outandabout says:

        messenger……ha ha ha….please tell me you’re joking….’god doesn’t tell everyone the same thing. He does,he just doesn’t allow some to understand what he’s telling them’. Ha ha aha. Now there’s a contradiction for a start. Kinda figures, coming from one of gods messengers. So the bible is for an elite few? This reminds me of Thomas Moore who put people on the rack for the terrible sin of owning a bible in English. Can’t have people noticing stuff, aye messenger? Kinda makes sense considering it’s a document for the control of the illiterate, ignorant and highly superstitious people of the first century. But we can all read now, messenger. Wouldn’t god who knows the future see this from back then? Wouldn’t he then have take this into account?
        Every day of every year for the last 2000 have contained all the signs of prophesy fulfillment. It’ll never happen. The mounting evidence supporting Evolution is crushing Genesis out of existence. Religion spoke it’s last intelligible or noble or inspiring words a long time ago. We shall have no more prophets or sages from the ancient quarter, which is why the devotions of today are only the echoing repetitions of yesterday, sometimes ratcheted up to screaming point so as to ward off the terrible emptiness.
        How much self respect must be sacrificed in order that one may squirm continually in an awareness of ones own sin? How much vanity must be concealed in order to pretend one is the personal object of a divine plan? How many needless assumptions must be made, and how much contortion is required to receive every new insight of science and manipulate it to ‘fit’ with the words of a god?

        • messenger says:

          I contradicted nothing. You took a partial quote of mine which made it look like a contradiction. A slick gimmick, but ineffective since my whole quote was right above your partial. It’s like what Lloyd, Redwood, or Covert said WT did to scientists’ quotes in the Creation book. You said I said something I didn’t say. Here is my quote again, in totality: “Remember the lady here that kept asking the question: ‘Why doesn’t God tell everyone the same thing?’ He does. It’s just that he doesn’t allow some to understand what he’s telling them.”

          Your statement, “But we can all read now, messenger. Wouldn’t god who knows the future see this from back then? Wouldn’t he then have take this into account?” implying since you can read means you can know what the Bible claims supports my point. You don’t know its meaning, yet you read the same things I do.

          For instance, if you understood scriptural meaning what’s this thought of yours about: “Every day of every year for the last 2000 have contained all the signs of prophesy fulfillment. It’ll never happen.” outandabout. You are probably implying some signs of the so called “Last Days” were happening every year for the last 2000. That’s correct, but your reason for saying it shows a lack of understanding scriptures. It shows that you don’t know what the significant signs that Christ shared are, or when those signs did or will happen. Only one sign concerning an ending happened so far. It was the surrounding of Jerusalem by an army proceeding its destruction. The other signs he was asked to provide and did provide were answered with (1) the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and signs in the heavens will be seen, and (2) the appearance of a sign of the Son of Man will occur for everyone on Earth to see. Both signs of those signs have not happened yet.

          Also, the world entered into the last days Paul spoke of when Christ died. Compare Paul’s reverence of events taking place about the last days recorded in Tim chpt 3 to the events he said were occurring in his day at Rom chpt 1:28-32.Those events are the same. In scripture several of the apostles claimed the last days were present while they lived. The first was Peter, on the day of Pentecost when Christians were first born again. But so did Paul, and John, Jude.

          Like I said before you argue what you don’t know proving the statement I made which you believe doesn’t make any sense. Also, that thought is in the Bible. Why don’t you find it. That won’t be too hard to do if you look. But I don’t believe you’ll look. And I’m not spoon feeding those to you.

          You probably learn this tactic from the evolutionist. Rather than making your point by using an example that everyone already is aware of, you take some obscure point that is not common knowledge, like your use of Mark 16 and Christians not hurt by poison. In a similar way evolutionist say, look at these similarities in embryo shapes between some species, some similarities in genes, some similar skeletal shapes, claiming those things prove evolution. Why didn’t the evolutionists just say most seeing organisms have only two eyes, that proves evolution. Probably because telling people of a similarity they weren’t aware of might give more shock to the intellect, when in fact is doesn’t prove the point any better than saying things that see have two eyes. Similarly your drink the bleach claim actually proves your point even less than what you could have questioned.

          And by the way why haven’t rodents developed three eyes? One on top of their heads would keep them safer, since many rodents are attacked by birds from the air and eaten. Three eyes would have definitely helped rodents to survive better. If survival of the fittest led to all the body shapes then why did the development of eyes stop for all practical purposes in all animals with only two?

          • outandabout says:

            once again messenger, why doesn’t god allow some to understand what he’s telling them? What is the point of that? Since it’s gods desire to reach everybody, why, if he made absolutely everything and knows what I’m going to write here before I do, can’t the idiot write a simple bible that even a child can understand? Isn’t that what you would do? Is the bible written only for a select few and not everybody, then? Rubbish!!
            Why would a book if it was written explaining all the incomprehensible and contradictory parts of the bible be six times larger than the bible itself? Why would people be put on the rack by Thomas Moore for daring to own a copy of the bible in English? Was the church afraid of whats actually in the bible ‘? Did the church want to stay in a position where they could pick out only the parts of the bible they chose for consumption and so maintain control? Did they finally relent on that only after they’d concocted convoluted excuses for the bible and then say “there you are” and the poor peasants didn’t really understand anyway and just went along with these excuses made by the church thinking they just weren’t bright enough and the fault of not understanding lay with them? This continues today, messenger…..people not understanding the bible but just going along with it out of habit.
            If the bible is true, it MUST be followed to the letter. So, why don’t you, messenger. Go on, go ahead and try it. Walk into any church and stone the first person to death for saying saying Gods name. Are you going to insist your daughter marries her rapist? My, what a fine society you’re building, messenger. And all with Gods law too.
            Anybody following the bible to the letter would quickly be either be in jail, a mental institution or dead.
            Poor old Randy has been singled out for special type of execution I see. Thats because he’s an apostate, right? Nothing worse than an apostate. Atheists are ok because they’e still reachable so take it easy on them, but apostates….the lowest lifeform on earth. You really are quite blind, messenger. So blinded by your hideous immoral belief that you fail to see whats at play here. This is yet another control mechanism designed to keep people trapped in the belief and if they do manage to escape are punished by losing everything. And here you are, the brightest guy in America going along with this and, in your own way, actually enforcing it while maintaining that your morals are of the highest order. You’re quite the bully, but….. so is God – ‘I love you but if you don’t love me back I will kill you’ Nice. I can see why he chose you. In his own image. You are one sick puppy. A knackered unit. You’ve left the building.

  3. messenger says:

    “Paul assumes a human-like super-being must have made the world” Randy

    It’s not that you offend me, so please stop saying that. Why should comments made by those who don’t know truth offend, especially when they choose willfully to remain ignorant? But like another commenter who used to frequently comment here, well you might get offended if I stated the first thought arising, but here it is, “cut the crap.” Since you don’t believe the things you’ve read in the Bible just admit that and move on. Fine to comment, if you honestly do it, but only another liar accepts a liar. Hold on, I know your response. It will go something like this: I admitted I don’t know God, I’m an atheist. Well how about admitting you’re not teaching the scriptures instead of misinterpreting their meaning and the teachings of Christians. Why do you do it?

    Paul doesn’t assume anything. Paul was visited by Christ per scripture. Paul was also instrumental in instigating miraculous events. But to get back to your claim, insinuating it is a biblical thought you state, “Paul assumes a human-like super-being must have made the world.” Can you see why I claim your crap stacks up deep? This isn’t the first time Randy. An honest person would refer to what Paul really believed and why he believed it not what that person wishes Paul believed and falsely claim why Paul believed that. You are not an honest person.

    Also, there is not a Christian organization I’m aware of that is not aware of the existence of miracles. Even WT is. When WT warns about spiritism it’s acknowledging miraculous contact between invisible beings and humans. And yet you reference WT’s comments on air breezes. Why do you choose the latter rather than my example? Or WT’s profession to be anointed, born again? Because you choose not to just come out and admit, “yes I know the Bible but don’t believe it, and so I’ll come up with arguments that refute what it claims is real in an attempt to divert from the biblical message.” Because that’s what your teachings do Randy. Those divert from the biblical message, so stop claiming those offend me. I’m not the author of the biblical message. I point your hypocrisy out because I work in the author’s behalf. If he’s offended at your teachings you’ll find that out soon enough from him. My comments to you were yes, he’s offended, but not like you think. He doesn’t get huffy puffy with you.

    It would be more honest to say I don’t believe Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, any of the apostles, any of the early Christians who didn’t inform the world the gospels and book of acts were fraudulent, any Bible prophet or any present day people who claim God contacts, than to write the rubbish you do, such as a stiff breeze doesn’t prove God exists to you as WT claims and apostle Paul claims it should. That’s not Paul’s claim or WT’s.The Bible doesn’t have people rest their hope on the evidence from feeling stiff breezes, so why do you insinuate it does? Since Randy, you claim to have NO agenda. Why would you even concentrate on a point that a stiff breeze doesn’t prove God exists? You know hardly anyone here cares what WT teaches, if that’s what it rests its hope on which it isn’t. But if commenters cared what WT believes they wouldn’t comment like they do on this site.

    Are you just here to shoot the breeze, and attempt to reach a consensus that we can be sure of nothing except that we exist? Why would anyone be so concerned about people reaching that consensus? Especially since it’s a laughable idea.

    In one way I was like you until I saw evidence of miracles. I didn’t believe they happened today, because of WT teachings, because I hadn’t seen any, and because the idea sounded far fetched. But I was different from you in that I believed in God and you don’t. He showed me not one, but several miracles. And in harmony with the scriptures you will likely die without seeing any, until you come before Christ, then you’ll know those things exist and that they existed while you lived on Earth.

    Your claim is that miracles should be verifiable in that those should be consistently produced so a scientist could prove them or at least so you can prove those exist. If miracles originate from God doesn’t that claim sound silly? Remember the scripter that says, does the clay tell the potter what to produce.

    Now since tranquillo wants me to read all your long writings I’ve written several long ones. Maybe it will piss off, offend, or create that enmity form some who read here that, that snake scripture spoke of.

    Here I’ll start it. “Please I come to this site to learn about new developments inside WT , but with the comments lately it sounds like I’m back at the Kingdom Hall. It’s offensive to my sensibilities, and why should I have to hear that? Why don’t those Christians choose another blog to comment on?”

    • tranquillo says:

      thanks messenger for reminding me… it really inflates my ego!! (I’m obviously jocking).
      I’ve read all your long post and in the end what stroke me was the lack of joy, serenity. Are you bitter, messenger? You are attacking everybody and then claim the others are attacking you because you are Christian and the seed and so on…
      Still it seems that you are missing the fact that we all have been JW and most of us also sincere in our beliefs. I for one did really try to find God and to follow Jesus. I didn’t change to lead a wild and dissolute life or because of my ego. I was a case of cognitive dissonance, and it took a lot of energies to keep my beliefs against my reason. I did try to find God but according to the Bible I was unworthy. ok

      • messenger says:

        So, what do you suggest I do hold your hand and stroke your forehead because WT told you some lies? It’s not going to happen. Grow up, or if you are grown get stronger.

        Just because much of America is a welfare state with the people accepting that charity living in poverty you don’t have to choose to be like those people. You can choose to be self sufficient, and after leaving WT still find God, on your own. You’ve already learned enough to do that-all baptized JWs have-, you’re no Baby. If things aren’t easy enough for you to try, you won’t make it. God looks for those that try, then he helps them do it, that’s how he works.

        The reality is God finds you, and brings you along if he sees in you what you must to be to remain which is a supporter of him. And he looks at your future in doing that, into those places you haven’t been yet, which means there is still time for you to grow up and change because you haven’t seen your future yet only God and Christ know what it will be, you don’t and I don’t.

        Most people who come off as challenged individuals that I’ve seen do so because they don’t try hard enough. Is that you?

        No I’m not bitter. I speak for God, and in doing that share his thoughts from a biblical perspective, many of the ones you used to know and believe. And, if you don’t see the attacking going on, on this site, you are blind. Is it don’t see, or don’t want to see. If it’s the latter, which is probable, that’s probably why you couldn’t find God yet on your own. What you learned as a JW, that idea that finding God is a choice, is true. Proverbs 2nd chapter

        Your quote, ” most of us also sincere in our beliefs,” So is Satan, so why do say that. Is it in expectation that I should respect all beliefs because people sincerely believe those. I don’t, and neither do you. Or, are you a Nazi, a communist, a Klu Klux Klan, Nation of Islam, Jewish faith, and ISIS sympathizer all at the same time?

        Your quote, ” I’ve read all your long post and in the end what stroke me was the lack of joy, serenity. Are you bitter, messenger?” The idea that God’s messenger (seen in the Bible-or modern world) fit the profile you depict above is a sham, a fraud taught out of ignorance or out of a desire to control passive people. God and his messengers are first of all pragmatic getting necessary tasks done; and getting God’s work done is not done by agreeing with atheists, respecting their opinions, or doing the same with people who misrepresent God’s words either intentionally or out of ignorance.

        I’m at peace and serene because I know where I am going. The people on this site, non-Christians and doubters that come off as being at peace aren’t because they have no hope. I’ve seen a glimpse of my future, they haven’t. And being of a decent amount of years for a human I can say it happened a lot quicker than I thought it would when I was Lloyd’s, Redwood’s, or Covert’s age. When they reach this age they’ll more seriously consider the choice they’ve made. We don’t live very long on Earth unless we live after death.

        • tranquillo says:

          still using the same approach, of a bully
          “So, what do you suggest I do hold your hand and stroke your forehead because WT told you some lies? It’s not going to happen. Grow up, or if you are grown get stronger.” that’s mocking, you talk of respect and you show little.
          who ever said that it was WT that made me loose my faith? It was reading the Bible that made that indeed. And yes, I read it more than WT literature. I didn’t try hard enough…. that’s obvious from your perspective, if I couldn’t find God it was my problem, something to do with me. He looks for those that try and help them…. oh yes, I’m sure he does, of course, if you believe to the Bible it must be so… I’m blind, or don’t want to see… again yes Satan blindfolded me…. yes your universe has a degree of coherence.
          Judging, always judging, saying that I want it to be easy.

          • messenger says:

            Get a baby sitter, or better yet pay a psychiatrist to listen to your problems, if you can afford it. I’m not here to give ear to your problems. That’s not why I’m here.

          • messenger says:

            your quote: “that’s mocking, you talk of respect and you show little.”

            If you believe Gen 3:15 is speaking of respect you might get an English tutor. I used to do that work, but I’m not available at this time or to you at any time or at any price.

            Your quote: “I’m blind, or don’t want to see…”

            It sounds like the latter to me, but you decide. Do you find it therapeutic to present in this public forum the idea that the Bible’s morality is degenerate as you do?

            Yes, I definately believe its that latter with you. But you choose willfully blind or just blind due to no fault of your own. Even blame me for your condition, and your heartache. After all I am a bully, and as you say God is also. We’ll take the blame for all your woes. We can carry that load right into eternity with us. But without waiting too long as we step into it we’ll drop our remembrance of you. In the meantime blame us. It’s okay with me. It’s okay with God, or he’d do something about your behavior more than just have people like me talk to you.

          • Tranquillo says:

            You are definitely a bully. About the Bible, if you read for what it is, the account of the nation of Israel thorugh the centuries, you see what is its level of morality. Genocide, slavery, incest, the woman being defined as a belonging of the man.Homophobia. Do you think that epilessia is caused by demons?
            Anyway, i find therapheutic talking to you because you remind me of my ex wife and why it was no longer possible to live togheter. She is free now, you would make quite a fine match. Do you want me to intoduce you to her?.

          • messenger says:


            If you find it therapeutic talking to me, then think about this from the wooly who is the big bully.

            You’ve heard a lot about the love of God and Christ, and how they created you to give you all you have, letting you share in working for a small part of what you have.

            Still you think about all the destruction by God and claim he must be a pervert because of it. How do you feel about destroying an ant colony in your house that’s sent a scouting party of ant soldiers into your sink? Do you look at yourself as the mass killer God is? If you look at your actions that way are not you are a killer.

            But you love yourself and hate God for doing the same thing you do. You kill, and you’re a mass killer like God. You probably even eat animals that are killed to feed you don’t you? Why don’t you hate yourself like you hate God because you do the same thing he does?

            If God does not exist the only thing that makes you more important than those ants is your own thinking fed by the thinking of others who claim they are more important than ants.

            You cannot see into the future, the past, my life, Lloyd’s life, and yet you claim to know what’s best for all humanity and other creatures, and even see that better than a being greater than you who can see a much bigger picture. As a matter of fact in comparison you are infinitely smaller than an ant attempting to see your world. You can see almost nothing I.e. the Bible even calls you blind in comparison because you choose not to look through God’s eyes as much as he would allow you to.

            The biggest difference between me and you, because we both know of the killing, is I trust that the people God kills did to him, or will do to him, what those ants do to you when coming into your sink.

            On your high moral ground you take it as your right to kill the ants do you? With your belief I don’t think you have that right. You’re like God in that sense, a killer..

        • Garrett says:

          “I speak for God”………. hahaahhahAahhahaahhahaa!!!!!!!!
          Dude! You smoke some serious weed! ….. who is your dealer? … I must score a lid of what yer rollin’. ……

          • messenger says:

            See Roman chpt 10. every JW knows it. And I thought every grown man understood one of the primary functions of priests, rabbis, evangelists, Fathers, or preachers. I guess I was wrong.

  4. Resister says:

    Hey Jason, man, relax. Leave the poor Governing Body alone. After all, all they want is “a little peace”, just like this guy:


  5. outandabout says:

    I see that a couple preachers in Tennessee tried to live by the bible and died in the process. ‘And if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them’ is what the bible says of true believers. So I’m wondering that because of this the bible should maybe come with a suitable warning or disclaimer plastered on the front in bold letters, for example;

    Warning – Not be taken seriously.
    Don’t try this at home.
    Keep out of reach of children.
    Minors must be supervised.
    May bring rise to delusions and mania to the less robust of minds.
    May cause irreversible damage to liver and kidney’s.
    Warning- contains conflicting messages and must be interpreted only by a suitably deluded person capable of concocting pages of elaborate excuses to muddy the waters of what is patently obvious.
    May cause wars and social unrest.
    Warning – this book has been shown to be both the cause and effect of dangerous sexual repression and other social ills.
    Caution – may waste ones one and only life.
    Warning – may make one feel unworthy.
    Warning – will teach children to externalize blame and to feel ashamed and to see things as plain right or wrong.
    Warning – can induce unbearable righteousness.
    Caution – causes a judgmental attitude.
    Warning – The reader may view the murder of 7 billion people as fair and just while always claiming the high moral ground.
    May cause child abuse.
    May endanger cohesion of the family unit.
    May induce suicidal or self harming thoughts.

    • messenger says:

      Oh Outy, it hurts so bad-Gen 3:15

      • outandabout says:

        glad you liked it, buddy. Gen 3:15? I;m comfortable with it but thanks for the warning all the same. At least you tried.

        The Aztecs practiced sacrifice so that others could go on.
        Jesus was sacrificed so that others could go on.

        Can you join the dots, messenger, or shall I walk you through it?

        Peace, all the same. You believe you’re doing the right thing. There’s no way in the world I could hate you for that.

    • tranquillo says:

      Warning- contains conflicting messages and must be interpreted only by a suitably deluded person capable of concocting pages of elaborate excuses to muddy the waters of what is patently obvious


      when your read for what it plainly says… well it’s much easier to understand and also very interesting. the ancient testament for sure doesn’t speak of a loving creator.

      it would be really a wonderful day when we have such warnings on the bible…

  6. messenger says:

    On TV news here in the USA it’s reported that the government is now going to make Starbucks and other coffee companies put a cancer warning label on their coffee cups, stating drinking the coffee could be hazardous to your health.

    It’s not likely WT will make drinking coffee a disciplining offense since the danger of coffee drinking is minuscule compared to cigarette smoke as best we know. Yet the idea that WT could outlaw coffee, it being recognized as dangerous by our government, shows how far WT teachings are removed from Bible teachings, and the authority WT assumes:

    “For who makes you differ from another?” 1 Cor.:4:7 apostle Paul

    “…You have begun ruling as kings without us have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we might rule with you as kings.” 1Cor 4:8 apostle Paul

  7. Resister says:

    Outandabout, ‘The Bible has been shown to be the cause AND effect of sexual repression.’ LMAO. Classic.

    Messenger, the stupid government can print all the stupid warnings they like. As far as drinking coffee or smoking cigarettes goes, I do both, so “H.K.” – Who Cares?

    Just looked up the etymology of “apostate”. In addition to meaning “defector” or “rebel”, in the original Greek, the term was also used to denote a runaway slave. Ha!

  8. Ted says:

    Hi Outandabout about, I’m sure your challenge to messenger
    To drink poison as per Mark 16, will not be accepted, though
    it’s true that some have been so possessed as to do it, with
    fatal consequences.

    It’s the result of mind poisoning that has a profound and lasting
    effect on the less robust of brains, it causes one to accept the
    wanton slaughter and abuse of women and children as the will
    of an omni,benevolent ruler. Black becomes white evil becomes
    good, what could be more delusional?

    Another proven effect from this same source is the Christ or
    Messiah complex, causing ones to construct in their minds
    visitations and messages from that person. Some so affected
    have caused distress and even death to many, others have
    ended up in mental institutions. Should we pity such ones,
    or hold them in contempt?

    • Resister says:

      I like contempt.
      PS I think someone saw Jesus in their pancake once. LMAO

      • Resister says:

        PPS Remember, there are lots of “crazy” people in the world who do NOT foist their views or delusions on others. Hmmm…

      • outandabout says:

        I actually prefer pity, Ted but it depends on the individual and what they’re attempting to push. People holding placards reading ‘fags die god laughs’ are sick with belief and hideous to behold. I’m not big on the indoctrination of young unformed minds either. Religion should be a personal thing and arrived at by oneself and kept to oneself. My opinion.
        Hope you are well, Ted.

    • outandabout says:

      I forgot to say, Ted……if the humans can literally think themselves to death as per the villager who gets the bone pointed at them by the Witchdoctor, creating gods and stories and myths to support those gods is as easy as pie to us and become as real as the sunrise.
      We’re romantically insane and we just have to know the answer and if one is not forthcoming, we will invent one using what knowledge we have at the time.

      Ancient man see’s a tree split in half by lightning – enter god number one. It’s just so simple.

  9. Resister says:

    I would like to share the following clip, only because this charming young lady’s story may remind some of us bitter, disgruntled exJWs of our own experience transitioning from slavery to freedom. Especially the part about the Communists rewriting history and making everything outside of Communism seem evil.
    CAUTION: This talk is exceedingly pro-American, so for anyone who still believes America is the Root of all Evil, you may want to take a pass.


  10. messenger says:

    Hello Randy

    I intend to lighten up on criticizing your comments. I don’t want to be instrumental in causing you to stop commenting here.

    I looked at the video you posted about quantum computers. Great job on your presentation. And it was nice to see you teaching in your video. Best wishes in completing your schooling. I know if you have time to continue you’ll do well.



    • outandabout says:

      nice bit of self reflection going on, messenger. Good on you.
      One day though, if when you tell one of your biblical truths to a child and they look up at you as if you’re a crazy old man, it is then you’ll know the world has moved on without you.

      It’s been said that as children we know things, but as adults we forget them. Even a child can see straight through the bible. That’s why they ask those questions. It’s adults who teach them to over-ride their common sense. I call that child abuse. So should you.

      • Resister says:

        Well said, outandabout. And so very, very true. We are TAUGHT to be stupid. People LEARN to be stupid. For example, how many racist little children have you met? Racism is taught and learned. Growing up, I had a gay, mentally-challenged boy living right next door. I mean, this guy was a flamer. He would walk around outside with his mother’s purse, talking in the most effeminate manner. He was almost a caricature. lol You would think he would be an easy target for bullying. And indeed he was. Yet, as far as I know, no one ever bothered him. He was totally safe when among the rest of us, though that wasn’t very often, ’cause he just didn’t ride a bike or play street hockey or other sports. He went to his special school and probably had his own friends. My point is, none of us at that point had LEARNED to hate. So he was totally fine. Live and let live. Simple.
        Not pushing religion here, but your comment reminds me so much of one of the main tenets of Buddhism, which is that we are born intelligent and with the capacity to learn good, yet from Day One, the world starts inserting garbage into our heads. And remember that old computer programming principle – GIGO – Garbage In, Garbage Out. So Buddhism states that it is up to the individual to become aware, awake, and take up the task of deprogramming, detoxifying him/herself. I’m not religious, but if I had to choose, it would be Buddhism, ’cause it’s the only faith I’ve heard of, that tells people to UNlearn things, at least in that respect. All the others just want to shove a bill of goods down your throat – “WE teach, YOU learn … OR ELSE.” What a crock.

        • Resister says:

          Oops. Forgot the most important part: Having deprogrammed oneself, one must be vigilant to ensure one is never brainwashed again.

    • Hi Messenger,

      No worries. I posted a comment on the 10th but it hasn’t been released from moderation yet. I’ve read several back and forth comments but haven’t had time to respond further. Unfortunately I’m not fast writer — my longer responses take a bit time to construct — only to hit “submit” and find errors I wish I had corrected during review — oh well. I really think it is important that everyone have an opportunity to express themselves. Lets face it, inside the faith, we were constantly required to be on guard lest we “stumble” someone.


  11. Hi Everyone,

    In my ENH241 – American Literature Prior to 1860 we are covering Walt Whitman. Other than the reference in “Breaking Bad” I know nothing of this poet. Here are a few thoughts from his very long poem “Song of Myself” I found interesting…

    On Science… #23:

    I accept Reality and dare not question it,
    Materialism first and last imbuing.

    Hurrah for positive science! long live exact demonstration!
    Fetch stonecrop mixt with cedar and branches of lilac,
    This is the lexicographer, this the chemist, this made a
    grammar of the old cartouches,
    These mariners put the ship through dangerous unknown
    This is the geologist, this works with the scalpel, and this is a

    Gentlemen, to you the first honors always!
    Your facts are useful, and yet they are not my dwelling,
    I but enter by them to an area of my dwelling.

    (I love the “your facts are useful, and yet they are not my dwelling.” I believe science is useful tool in discovering the truth about the natural world. However, science cannot say much about purpose and meaning. That latter bit is something we must build ourselves.)

    On Teaching… #47:

    I teach straying from me, yet who can stray from me?
    I follow you whoever you are from the present hour,
    My words itch at your ears till you understand them.

    I do not say these things for a dollar or to fill up the time
    while I wait for a boat,
    (It is you talking just as much as myself, I act as the tongue of
    Tied in your mouth, in mine it begins to be loosen’d.)

    (I love the “I act as the tongue of you.” That is what poets, comedians, philosophers, holy books and sages often do. They express thoughts we may not have the words for or perhaps are reluctant to say out loud.)

    On God… #48:

    I have said that the soul is not more than the body,
    And I have said that the body is not more than the soul,
    And nothing, not God, is greater to one than one’s self is,

    [. . .]

    And I say to mankind, Be not curious about God,
    For I who am curious about each am not curious about
    (No array of terms can say how much I am at peace about
    God and about death.)

    I hear and behold God in every object, yet understand God
    not in the least,
    Nor do I understand who there can be more wonderful than

    (Ah, I’m not sure I’ve got as far as Whitman, but I hope I’m closing in on being at “peace about God and about death.” I’m an atheist in the sense of not believing in a God that created the world and answers prayers. However, I do believe, God exists within the mind of the believer and as a shared concept among a group of like-minded believers. As such, I too “behold God in every object.” Since the mind is mysterious, I must be humble, I “understand God not in the least” in terms of how others, believers and non-believers alike, relate to this subject.)

    On Death… #52:

    I depart as air, I shake my white locks at the runaway sun,
    I effuse my flesh in eddies, and drift it in lacy jags.

    I bequeath myself to the dirt to grow from the grass I love,
    If you want me again look for me under your boot-soles.

    (Amen! It is wonderful to be alive. To be alive is good enough! I wish to place no additional demands on the cosmos, for imagined forms of life-after-death. It is good enough to know when I’m gone the grass will grow and bits of my DNA will now be carried into the future by my children and grandchildren)


  12. Shona says:

    Yes the ‘missionaries’ came back and are treated like rock stars and they are fetted and praised. Yet, we’re they only doing what their circumstances allowed them to do? Let’s not forget the widow and the coin. So much disparity and status. I was too logical and found that humans are the same everywhere. Looking up to those with perceived prominent positions.

  13. messenger says:

    “Hi Outandabout about, I’m sure your challenge to messenger
    To drink poison as per Mark 16, will not be accepted, though
    it’s true that some have been so possessed as to do it, with
    fatal consequences.

    It’s the result of mind poisoning that has a profound and lasting
    effect on the less robust of brains, it” Ted

    Warning- contains conflicting messages and must be interpreted only by a suitably deluded person capable of concocting pages of elaborate excuses to muddy the waters of what is patently obvious


    when your read for what it plainly says… well it’s much easier to understand and also very interesting. the ancient testament for sure doesn’t speak of a loving creator.

    it would be really a wonderful day when we have such warnings on the bible…” Tranquillo and outy


    1.Above are just a couple of quotes from Ted, outandabout and tranquillo.

    2. whether they are aware of it or not the three take part in fulfilling Bible prophecy. That is encouraging to believers because every bit of prophecy’s fulfillment provides evidence proving God’s word true. God’s word is so true that even when some opposers are informed their hate speech fulfills some of God’s foreseen prophecy those opposers cannot refrain from hate speech in that they are a part of the Devil’s seed. Gen 3:15 I (God) shall put enmity between your seed and her seed”

    Christ referring to himself as “the householder,” said, “…If people have called the householder Beelzebub (ruler of the demons) how much more will they call those of his household…?” Matthew 10:25

    Now Outy claims to have never been a JW, possibly never a Christian. And yet he has been informed many times that his spear chucking fulfills scripture (Gen 3:15). Ted and tranquillo were JWs with Ted possibly having been an elder. They know their spear chucking fulfills many scriptures. Logic should inform them they cannot disprove God’s existence by taking part themselves in fulfilling ancient Bible prophecies. So we should ask, can they help it? It appears not.
    The big question is why can’t they help it? And is there a biblical reason why they cannot?

    Next point: All of the evidence suggesting the theory of evolution comes from comparing similarities and differences between species. Scientists compare the similar shapes between some embryos. They compare some similar genes species share. They compare similar skeletons.

    This is what appears to be the scam, the two foot shuffle, the manipulation of the cones. Is comparing those similarities any stronger evidence then just saying most seeing species have two eyes? If species evolved from each other then wouldn’t claiming all two eyed species evolved from other two eyed species be just as significant as comparing those other similarities? The reason scientists don’t take that approach is because they know that all having two eyes proves nothing. By comparison neither do the comparisons they claim prove evolution.

    Here is real evidence. Several times, in Jewish history, and Christian history, huge groups of people saw miracles and wrote those down for us to read. Many of the writers also suffered for doing that. Compare that to, all seeing species have two eyes, similar genes, similar embryos.

    • tranquillo says:

      here is real evidence…really? that someone probably a hundred year later wrote down that there was a miracle? what a about the flood? what did really happen?

    • outandabout says:

      It’s easy to see you know very little about evolution, messenger, and no doubt you know even less about the evolution of gods throughout human history.

      Evolution is a done deal. If you need to find out more just get in touch with the Vatican. They’ve done the homework for you.

      The next two things in line set to scare the manure out of you is the creation of life in the lab and the identification of genetic markers for homosexuality, both of which are progressing nicely.

      How many truths throughout history have started as a heresy? It should comfort you to know that it’s never been proven that germs cause disease, and the sun revolves around the Earth.

      Now that Randy has shown us his complete honesty by showing us who he his, when are you going to level the playing field by doing the same? You’re 100% convinced in your beliefs, right? You’ve been contacted by god? You’re living a completely open and honest life out there, right? You’re not afraid, you’re not lying to anyone and are not living a double life? You’ll stand up anywhere anytime and tell your truth because it is the truth? Now’s your chance to prove it.

      • messenger says:

        Oh Outy, I studied it in college, the evolutionary theory that is. But they never brought up some those points that I shared with you, like most seeing species have only two eyes. There are some other similarities I didn’t mention yet, like:

        Most animal species (all I know of) have but one mouth.

        Most plants have roots.

        Most animals have two ears.

        Most animals have skeletons.

        Most animals have legs.

        Since the theory is supposedly proven by similarities between species those similarities I mentioned should prove the theory as much as the five discipline studies you mentioned, the study of embryos, fossil similarities, gene similarities and so on.

        Hey buddy, how smart is it to say some bones in a whale having similar shapes to some other animal’s skeleton is strong evidence for the theory when everyone can see other obvious similarities between species. The obvious aren’t mentioned because those are common knowledge, and like the similarities you mention those don’t prove evolution either. And everyone knows it. Does three separate species all possessing one mouth prove evolution? Everyone knows not.

        If scientists believed in God they would not insist the evolutionary theory is true because there would be another way to explain the existence and similarities between species. God using similar designs, which would be a much simpler explanation, and a more believable one also. Scientists seek to explain the universe as if their is no god. And so they come up with rational explanations to explain what they can see. But, just because that explanation is rational for one not knowing God doesn’t mean it’s accurate. No buddy, the theory is not proven. But even if true that does not prove God is not the instigator of that process.

        So sorry outy, your power is waning.

        “I will come to you shortly if Jehovah wills, and I shall get to know, not the speech of those who are puffed up, but [their] power. 1 Cor 4:19

        The irrefutable evidence Bible believers have is that more than one time in our history very large groups of people testified to having personal dealings with God as groups of people. That rules out mental disease, and hallucinations. For instance, every one of Christ’s apostles, with the exception of Judas, was martyred for preaching about the miracles they experienced in and after Christ’s presence.

        People are trying to help you outy, but you don’t want their help. If you keep allowing yourself to be misled by the charlatan in and out of religion, you’ll suffer a severe consequence.

  14. Katherine Fisher says:

    Why are the same few allowed to dominate every single subject on here. I have given up trying to scroll past the constant bickering that goes on. Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech but really shhhhhhhhh for a bit.

  15. Hi Messenger,

    [If species evolved from each other then wouldn’t claiming all two eyed species evolved from other two eyed species be just as significant as comparing those other similarities?]

    The theory of evolution does really postulate that species evolve from each other. The theory of evolution is based on the idea of common ancestor. Humans, chimps and bonobos are all closely related and thus have a common ancestor in our recent past. In contrast the common ancestor between a human and a banana would trace back very far in time. If the theory of evolution is correct and all life is related and originated from a single source then we should see common shared structures. And indeed we do. About 60% of our DNA is the same as found in bananas. In contrast about 99% of our DNA is the same as found in chimps and bonobos.

    Part of the problem in understanding how the theory of evolution works is the problem of self-reference. Going back far enough in time we find there was a time when no humans existed. Yet at the same time, no human has ever existed that did not have human parents. Life itself has the same problem. Far enough back, there was a time when the planet was completely sterile and lifeless. Yet, at no time did one life form exist that didn’t have a parent form.

    The paradox is solved, by understanding the self-reference is only needed during the shorter time frames. Over the long period it is not a requirement. The common ancestor of humans and chimps has multiple children. Those children reproduce, over time creating different lines of descent. All this time there is no change in species for a single generator or even multiple. It is only when looking over the long haul do we see one line led to modern humans and the other modern chimps.

    If such a theory is correct, sometime before the two lines became truly separate species, the closely related lines must have been able to interbreed. And such cases do exist. For example, a horse and donkey are difference, but closely related species, can still interbreed to produce a mule.


  16. Sorry: The theory of evolution does *not* really postulate that species evolve from each other.

    • messenger says:

      That species evolved from other species is exactly what that theory teaches. That current (today’s) species evolved from other species on Earth right now is what the theory does not teach, because the theory claims there are huge numbers of missing links in the evolutionary process. But that all species evolved from other species is what the theory is about. There is not much more to the theory. All that’s added is that survival of the fittest keeps the stronger mutations alive as they transition into or towards becoming other species-natural selection.

      Hey, but you can notice all animals have butts. That doesn’t prove evolution any better than scientists’ stated similarities. The fact that a banana shares certain characteristics with a humans proves nothing. You know a banana has a color characteristic with blondes more so than brunets doesn’t it? That doesn’t prove a blonde has a closer relationship with a banana.

      I believe outy gets sweaty in his shorts because he really doesn’t have any retort to the simple fact similarities in organisms does not prove the theory.

      • Hi Messenger,

        Oh, okay. I think we both have the same understanding then. That is, the theory of evolution postulates two different species we see today once had a common ancestor. The common ancestor of humans and chimps would not have been of either species, but a species separate onto itself. And yes, that species evolved into two related, but different species. Do you think this would be impossible? If so, why, what would stop this from happening?

        One of the ways we judge the quality of scientific theories is based on their predictive power. The fact the theory of evolution, based on common ancestor, that shared common structures between different life forms is no small thing. That such was confirmed at the precise level of exact DNA sequences is remarkable.

        That we and bananas shared a common ancestor is one of the reasons why we can eat a banana and gain nutritional value. Ripe bananas are yellow because that color contrasts with green and as such works as an advertisement to those who eat bananas. All this works toward survival and how evolution works for symbiotic relationships.

        Another prediction of the theory of evolution is blindness in regards to direction. As such we should see many structures that reflect evolutionary history trumping optimal design. In other words an evolving organism doesn’t know where it is going or what it will be in the future. This does show up in things like animal butts. The function of the anus for most creatures is simple enough. But for rabbits their digestive tract actually requires food going out the anus and back into the mouth. It may be gross, but rabbits need to eat their own feces in order to get nutritional value from their food. In contrast the evolutionary history of other herbivores has been different.

        I found your concluding comment of “does not prove the theory” interesting. Outside of mathematical axioms I think it is a mistake to look at scientific theories in a dogmatic way. The theory of evolution can not be proven. It is merely the best theory we currently have that explains the origin of species. There are many ways the theory could be shown not work work. For example: if mutation was impossible, the theory wouldn’t work. Or if there was some clear case of structure (i.e. eye, ear, etc) that could not be explained in terms of gradual evolution, the theory wouldn’t work. Or if there wasn’t enough time, the theory wouldn’t work. Thus far all such attempts have failed. The few competing theories, such as Intelligent Design, have serious problems from clear statements on what they predict to how they could be shown not work.


  17. Ricardo says:

    Well guys, I came home and found a letter under my door inviting me to a Judicial Committee Hearing. So Big B was right. Well done Big B. I have just had the meeting with the elders. They disliked my comment about Bro Lett asking for donations (I said I was disappointed in him) at the meeting, and they said an absolutely amazing occurrence was the poster I presented to Bro Lett asking him to pity the little children and change Watchtower policy.

    The verdict: We believe there has been deliberate action in disturbing the congregation with negativity expressed at a public forum, culminating in an attack on Jehovah’s organization (through a poster).

    I was d’fed.

    I was very disappointed that they said nothing about my comments at jwsurvey. I mean, I have made it pretty obvious who I am.

    The disappointing thing is now I am an apostate on an apostate site. Where is the fun in that?

    I was emboldened to speak against glorious ones: the GB and all those entrusted with responsibility in God’s organization.

    Feels funny: I love Jehovah, have faith in Jesus, believe the Bible 100 percent but am apostate.

    Got any words of wisdom for me Messenger?

    • Resister says:

      Go Amish!

      • Resister says:

        Wait a may-ment … just had a thought (for a change 😀 ) … If Jehovah-ass Witlesses REALLY and TRULY want to be “no part of this world”, why don’t they take Watchturd’s money, combine it with their own (which they normally spend on iPhones, cars, vacations, etc.), buy a plot of land in each of their respective countries, and live on and work the land, just like the Amish! I mean, why the heck not??? Early Paradise!!! Away from all of us “worldly” degenerates. C’mon Faithless and Depleted Slave. Something to think about, guys!

    • Tranquillo says:

      Welcome to the club of apostates, heretics and witches!
      It is getting more and more difficult to remain a Jw if you love the truth and speak out

    • Bad Penny says:

      Well I’m not messenger but … we all knew you’d got it coming Ricardo. The Borg won’t put up with dissent in their ranks. United they stand, divided they fall ….. Anyway, keep smiling, your happy band of fellow dissenters may still keep in touch with you unless they are in fear of their own disfellowshipping … have to wait and see. You really are better off without all that study, field service and meetings! Start a new life, get a new life. Enjoy true freedom and rejoice that you have finally been made to ditch the crap!

    • Hi Ricardo,

      I’m so sorry to hear this! For many it is not too difficult to process mentally. We know that the person we are has not changed. We know when JWs DF for many cases of “apostasy” they are acting out of fear and have made no real effort to engage in the issues raised.

      Processing it mentally, yes, not too difficult. But emotionally! That is a different kettle of fish! When I left the faith I took up running and I often found myself going over what I might say if I was given an audience with the Governing Body.

      [Feels funny: I love Jehovah, have faith in Jesus, believe the Bible 100 percent but am apostate.]

      The truth is most people in the “world” don’t know or care too much about JWs. To them, JWs are just some funny Christian faith that knocks on doors and stands by literature carts at the library. It is folks like you and Messenger JWs should seek to retain! But no! The slightest sense of disagreement must be met with shunning and name calling! “Apostate” simply means stand-away-from. As such, technically JWs are an apostate form of Christianity, since they stand apart from the rest of the Christian world and reject doctrines accepted by most other Christians.

      The key is to recognize our personal journey of faith continues day by day. Along the way we need to shed the bad bits while retaining the good. Keep the emphasis on the important things like love (1 Cor 13:7). We recognize the elders and Governing Body are just men, sadly gripped by fear and limited by intellect common to us all. They bumble forward causing great harm. The extent to which they are even self-aware we don’t know (Acts 7:54-60).

      Do take care,

    • eyes opened says:

      Well Ricardo I don’t think that’s what you wanted. Perhaps you could appeal. If you want to. According to the scriptures, what is your disfellowshipping offense? Anyway it has to be a difficult thing.

      Regards and peace to you

    • messenger says:


      Isn’t that the same thing that happened to Jesus, for a reason that was somewhat similar to yours? My advice is don’t sweat it. If that’s the worst thing that happens to you in this life then your life will not have been too hard. Something worse already happened to me, but I got through it. Just trust in Christ and keep going. I strongly suggest against you becoming like many individuals on this site. If that happens you will have been taken out by demonic thought. The Greek word “believe” used in scripture with reference to to belief in Christ means, “give your heart to.” That’s what you must keep doing.

      Also know that all of WT’s teachings, except its restrictions on behaviors not defined in scripture as forbidden, were taken from other Christian denominations. And WT admits that. Some are correct, others are errant. But those teachings did not originate with WT. Legitimate churches know and teach about Christian apostasy, Babylon the Great, last days’ prophecy just as WT does. And it’s from those other churches WT obtained its theology, not by God’s holy spirit. If I were you I’d listen to some of those, and maybe go to some of those churches at least occasionally. And become a member if you choose to. CSN International is a good source. Google it. Christian Satellite Network has various Bible teachers from various Christian churches. Every teacher there teaches more accurate Christian theology than WT.

      I would not seek to be reinstated as a JW. WT is beyond a shadow of a doubt part of Babylon the Great, an apostate church. Some other Christian churches are not apostate as WT is. Find one (or some) that’s isn’t.

      And you are not an apostate per WT ‘s definition. WT defines an apostate as one that turns away from God and biblical teaching. You haven’t done that. If they called the householder Beelzebub, how much worse will they call servants in his household? (Christ)

      I’ll find you at some time in the distant future, after this world is over. Then we’ll sit down and talk over a drink or meal. Whether Christ comes sooner or later we are not too far from that experience. We don’t live very long human lives. After I leave I’ll be able to come back here. I’ll find you in the New Earth if you’re there.

      One last thought. Pray intensely now, and speak to God on a regular basis IN A NORMAL WAY, NOT LIKE THE PRAYERS OFFERED BY WITNESSES. I believe God contacted me partly due to MY intense prayer while experiencing a very difficult situation. Then God went back about five years in my life, before those contacts, and showed me an accurate and very detailed future involving that experience, showing me those additional messages (answers to prayer) came from him. During the last contact I was awake. That served as a second confirmation those messages were from God. If you really BELIVE IN HIM, HE WILL HELP YOU.


      • eyes opened says:

        Messenger, Nice words to Ricardo.


        • I agree. Very kind response Messenger.

          • Ricardo says:

            Yes, thank you guys for your support. I am going to appeal, in what I know will be a futile attempt to clear my name, to try to help the elders to see that I am a victim of elder abuse, not a Korah. And it is my response to that abuse which they find so negative.

            But really, here at the moment it is probably better to be d’fed, as the numbers are stacking up and the support network is fantastic.

            I will still be here to tell you the further saga of being a Christian, although technically I am not a Christian. My religion told me I couldn’t be a Christian.

      • Big B says:

        @ Ricardo:

        Before I posted this response to your recent predicament I respectfully waited for messenger to respond to your request for ‘words of wisdom’. That being said, his wise and humble advice to you, like mine, or so I thought, in so many previous posts, was meant as a loving warning. Truly, I have spoken clearly to you about ‘tweaking the lion’s tail’ in regards to your persistence of playing a very dangerous game. Now you have finally been mauled by the lion. Did you manage to accomplish anything other than getting yourself disfellowshipped? Was aggravating the elders worth it? Do you seriously believe the congregation will come to your aid or will they avoid you like the apostate leper that they see you for?

        You Ricardo, similar to Jesus, were found guilty long before your judicial hearing, which was, by the way, a mere formality. The elders were biding their time and giving you just enough rope to hang yourself which, with your comments at the Hall, heard by others, was a heaven sent undeniably witnessed confession to your apostate, negativity and treachery to the congregation, elder arrangement and Jehovah’s Earthly Organization. You deftly handed the elders not only the nails but the cross to crucify you with, unfortunately.

        As regards to your disappointment to “they said nothing about my comments at jwsurvey”, seriously, did you expect them to admit to visiting an ‘apostate’ internet site? Really? If you had asked them do you think they would have answered in the affirmative?

        Both messenger and I have had many years dealing with and observing the Watchtower’s attitudes, especially their “take no prisoners, make no compromise” policies regarding what they believe to be apostasy. To everyone still involved with Jehovah’s Witnesses reading this: Jehovah’s Witnesses are NOT a democracy, a republic or a ‘theocratic’ organization. They are a hierarchy just like the Roman Catholic Church (according to their own attorney). The elders act as inquisitors reminiscent of the Spanish Inquisition seeking to remove anyone guilty of heresy or apostasy “in thought, in speech or deed”.

        Messenger has given you great advice and truth, namely that this cult is as much a part of Babylon the Great as any other church in Christendom. Interpret for yourself what the Bible really says not what the Watchtower’s spin says the Bible says. Do not return to slavery to any man-made cult. You know what “the truth about the truth” is. The moronic, idiotic, Bible thumping, evil slave following elders and their congregation of ‘sheeple’ will never except or believe what you already know and can prove. I found this out with my recent elder visit; they don’t know and further more they don’t want to know. So I told them I would never return, period!

        Again, I am, as are others on this site, truly sorry that this fate has befallen you and I wish you had left on your own accord rather than give the elders the authority to forcibly remove you from the congregation.

        Thinking of you,

        Big B

        • Deborah Rush says:

          Ricardo,sorry your life got a very rude stomping(its temporarily very painful,truly,a traumatic event),See,all the other’s wise comments on here, that are going out to You,speak truth.
          You will find now the difference between a ‘Belief’and true Faith.Keep and grow your faith,”for by it YOU are standing”.Take a topic for your OWN Bible research–use”BibleHub”(easy resource to use and cross reference each scripture for ex.).
          A couple of deeply- spiritual,informal,open-discussion Sites you could look at–beroeanpickets,ewatchman-there you will find a multi-country household of brothers(treated in some cases like you)who are in various stages,from PIMO-to completely out..but growing in a real,fellow-feeling,support and DEEP Bible examinations ..and ever-closer to Christ our Leader Savior and Lord.You now will see–you actually have been Given,(most ironically,painfully,and without mercy from a group claiming to love their fellow man)the golden opportunity…to Truly be Free!John 8:15-19;31-36;43-47.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Big B, yes you are right.

          What especially surprised me is that on top of what you have mentioned, they also had an email I had sent my brother. My brother and I are having an ongoing feud about whether I am responsible for the bad treatment I receive from the elders (his viewpoint- he is an elder) or that the elders are bullies (my viewpoint).

          I sent him an email because he had stopped talking to me. In it I listed a number of victims and abuses by elders ( mainly elders over here) never dreaming that the elders over here would get to read it. But, being the good elder he is, he knew I needed help to see that the elders are not bullies.

          The elders over here thought the best way to show they are not bullies is by d’fing me.

          Thanks elders. You have fixed me. No, you are not bullies. Now can I kiss your bottoms? Like you want everyone to do?

          I want to show my respect for you ‘glorious ones’.

          Can you imagine- from my own brother!

          • Big B says:

            Jesus tap dancing Christ, Ricardo you’ve lost the battle and the war! Appeal all you want, even your own fleshly brother, the elder, has sided with the cult over any loyalty to you. What did you expect? Are you truly, completely naive as to what kind of “organization” you’re involved with?

            Well, it’ a damn Cult; Christianity has nothing to do with it. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is big fat nothing, always has been and always will be. You bloody well know it too! Why do you give a rat’s behind what they think as to their definition of who’s a Christian and who isn’t? It’s a case of the pot calling the kettle “black”. What a damn joke, and what’s really sad is that you must believe it!

            God is cutting them lose because they are nothing but a Babylon the Great painted whore, riding a scarlet colored wild beast, hypocritical pedophile protecting, ignorant bunch of losers that pander to the uneducated “sheeple”. The Watchtower will be long gone before the rest of Christendom takes leave of this world.

            Appealing your case will make you appear to be a weakling and sadomasochistic for wanting to return. Ask messenger if this action will help to clear your “good name”. I say, that ship has sailed. You will show everyone (here and at the Hall) that you haven’t the guts of his beliefs or convictions.

            Now, if you wanted to have any association with your family then you should have, as your brother once said, “shut the hell up and sit down” to suck up more nonsense from the evil slave and slowly fade. But alas no; can’t do that. No damn fun in doing that is there? Well Ricardo, are we having fun yet?

            The bell has been rung and it has tolled for thee.

            Big B

            P.S. Stop wallowing in self pity and rejoice! Being Watchtower free is truly better than living on your knees. Who needs a traitorous family that would not speak to them over “religious differences” anyway? Isn’t that just plain stupid? Take care. Let freedom ring!

      • Deborah Rush says:

        Bless you messenger…good counsel(and I completely’get it’also in your’ revealed interactions with the Divine One.Unless a person has it;had it;or accepts anothers revealings of it,what you shared may seem to some as nonsensical).& didn’t people say about Christ,’why do you listen to Him he has a demon’,or,’hes gone out of his mind’,etc.
        Indeed Ricardo has the real chance now to grow in his spirituality-free from cultic influences.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Deborah, for the past several years, I have walked into the hall, sat down, nobody talked to me, listened to the meeting, after the meeting walked out, and nobody had talked a word to me. Meeting after meeting after meeting. So being d’fed won’t be so bad. Except after the meeting I would meet up with the gang at Maccas and talk about how silly the meeting was. I won’t be able to do that when I return to Australia. I still can here because my friends are either d’fed too, or don’t care.

          It is sad for my mother, however, who will go to her deathbed unable to talk to me. But at least she can talk to my son.

          I thank all of you people for your words of wisdom. May we continue to support one another.

    • Hi Richardo,
      I responded on 4/19, but it is still flagged for moderation. I just read Messenger’s response. It was very kind. The days ahead will call for some coping, but as the Persian proverb says, “this too shall pass.”

  18. outandabout says:

    hey, Ricardo….those elders only have as much power as you give them.

    Messenger….remember when you made a fool of yourself by recommending I educate myself into truth by reading the likes of Strobel and Missler? They turned out to be liars and charlatans, aye? Well, you’re doing the same again by listening to failed scientists,aka christian scientists.

    Science – Here are the facts, now what can we conclude.

    Religion – Here is the conclusion, now lets fit the facts.

    You’re doing as you always do – looking for confirmation of what you believe instead of looking for the truth. The Vatican went looking for confirmation of what they believed about evolution to shut it down but fell over the truth instead and decided to be honest for once and admit it. What about you? Is the Earth still flat?

    Arguing from the Bible is to argue from a point of bronze age ignorance.

    Why won’t you teach kids the Genesis account of how animals got their stripes? Because it’s stupid, right? So because I refuse to be stupid I am;

    fulfilling scripture
    have the devil in me
    will die a hideous death
    hate god
    hate christians
    want to lead an immoral life
    am blind
    can’t see the obvious
    won’t listen
    won’t accept truth
    have a diseased mind
    helping to corrupt the world

    How’s your daughter since god insisted she marry her rapist? Is he beating her for not loving him yet? Are the children happy?

    Isn’t it strange how we tell our kids there’s no such things as fairies at the bottom of the garden, trolls under the bridge or monsters under the bed but are happy to tell them there’s an invisible man in the sky who loves them but if they don’t love him back he will kill them. Don’t you know that being forced to love someone you fear is the essence of sado- masochism? I wonder how many sado- masochists are actually messed up christian fundamentalists?

    • messenger says:


      If you are not stupid then why don’t you quit sounding stupid and acting like a kissy, kissy, baby boy child saying, “listen, this org or that famous fella believes my belief so you should too.” Fact is I don’t care if they believe it. Orgs and famous people believing it mean nothing to thinking people unless their beliefs are proven true to the ones examining those ideas.

      You referring to Catholic beliefs, or you referring to what a scientist says instead of explaining that evidence they base those beliefs on adds nothing to your side of the argument. And that makes you look weak as a debater. Why do you keep showing that weakness in yourself?

      Any person with lots of ability who possess actual knowledge can explain points his self. I’ll give you a little credit for explaining some points (and that’s so many more points than most commenters here on your side of the issue have done), but no credit for failing to show how those points prove evolution. But that is where your side fails. Scientists cannot do that either. Like you they just reach hypothetical conclusions. And if those are not hypothetical conclusions as I claim those are then prove it. The fact is you cannot. But that’s all you can do in your state not knowing God.

      Another huge weakness in your argument is the way you attack in ignorance the two people I referred you to . I have heard Missler teach, and to put it not so gently he appears to be way ahead of you in intelligence and accomplishments. You put down those two men in ignorance, and that doesn’t show intelligence on your part. And in ignorance I bet I can accurately say you did not even attempt to examine the works they wrote that I suggested to you. Did you? Surely not. Instead you dug up something you think discredits them. You discredited yourself in doing that? You also falsified Strobel’s profession.

      I don’t claim you cannot get others leaching onto that theory with you. You use some of the same tactics your scientists use to sway others. Believe because we do. I studied the topic in an anthropology class. And if I don’t understand the concept as you ignorantly claim then I wonder why I received the highest grade in that class. Was the instructor stupid too. Prove your point, or get off the pot!

      • outandabout says:

        Once, messenger, the Earth being round was a heresy. So was the Earth revolving around the sun. The theory of gravity was resisted by religion. Man was never supposed to leave the envelope of the Earth. Earth was made for Man and Man alone but now we know there were others related to us.How many people did your stupid beliefs put to death before relenting on these truths? Spain was burning people at the stake at the very same time Columbus set sail and discovered other worlds with gods possessing the exact characteristics as your one. There are five or six belief systems around longer than yours featuring a virgin birth. We invent Gods.

        Science does not set out to disprove God. That’s not it’s job. But fake Universities hire scientists to try and prove creation because they are worried about evolution but they produce nothing of note. Nobody listens to them and nobody cites them. The are failed scientists.

        Lee Strobel was a court reporter masquerading as an investigative journalist to give himself more clout and hired a crackpot to square a circle in his book. He got exposed as a liar and a charlatan and made you a fool. Missler was guilty of plagiarism, admitted it and made you a fool. You listen to failed scientists and you are a fool. This highlights your faulty reasoning around your belief.

        Stop being a kissy kissy baby boy and saying everybody who doesn’t believe your Fairy Tale for Adults will die a horrible death and are weak and blind. Stop saying evolution can’t be true because nothing can come from nothing while maintaining that God came from nothing.

        Why be born again when you can just grow up.

        Being intelligent doesn’t preclude anyone from being stupid. Think Mad Scientist.

    • Hi Outandabout,

      [Why won’t you teach kids the Genesis account of how animals got their stripes? Because it’s stupid, right?]

      The story of Jacob, the rods and sheep is primarily about God causing Jacob to prosper. In terms of genetics though it is kind of fascinating. Of course there is no physical evidence that such rods could directly influence the genetic selection process. Nonetheless I believe the account shows humans have clued into ideas about selection. Turning observation into real workable theory is difficult. In the case of genetics we would have to wait until Gregor Mendel and his experiments on peas.

      My view is some of the material in Genesis is based on observation and as such actually winds up not far from the mark. Having God create man from the “dust” could easily be the mirror of the observation that living things that died decayed and returned to the “dust.” Even the creation account I find fascinating and correctly aligned with what the authors could observe. Reproduction after a kind is a law of nature that is ever violated on the shorter time scales. In the first creation account, a careful reader will notice that while it is God that speaks, the creative force itself is often assigned to the earth.


  19. Hi Ricardo,

    [Yes, thank you guys for your support.]

    Lots of great responses here. All Ex-JWs may not believe the same things, but most really appreciate how painful the process of leaving can be.

    [I am going to appeal, in what I know will be a futile attempt to clear my name, to try to help the elders to see that I am a victim of elder abuse, not a Korah. And it is my response to that abuse which they find so negative.]

    I did hear of one case where an appeal overturned an original DF decision. The result was a reinstatement announcement about two weeks after the DF announcement. That said, I believe it would be extremely unlikely for an appeal to reverse the original JC. If it did happen it would probably reflect some internal dislike between the two JCs than anything you could say in the appeal.

    [But really, here at the moment it is probably better to be d’fed, as the numbers are stacking up and the support network is fantastic.]

    Unless you believe “disfellowshipping” is a real Biblical authorized thing, I recommend not buying into the terminology or expected behaviors. Even though my named was announced at the Kingdom Hall[1], when I attend Memorial each year, I say “hello” and interact as normal with any JW who might approach. I do likewise when I chat with those attending to their carts. Although I always seek to be mild and not cause anyone to feel uncomfortable.

    [I will still be here to tell you the further saga of being a Christian, although technically I am not a Christian. My religion told me I couldn’t be a Christian.]

    If you believe Jesus was the promised Messiah (aka Christ) and do your best to follow his example, then you are a Christian. One of the reasons why the announcement was changed from “So-and-so has been disfellowshipped for conduct unbecoming a Christian” to the current “not a Jehovah’s Witness” was the former could more easily be shown to be slander. Some folks leave JWs by joining another Christian group.

    Although I would advise former JWs to be caution about joining another group, especially if it might be another high-control group, there are nonetheless many Christian groups with various beliefs you might find fit your own. The Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) do not believe in war. Even my own faith (Unitarian Universalist) originally stemmed from Christian thought that rejected the trinity and hellfire respectively. Alas, although some Christians do attend our UU services, generally most of the folks are non-Christians.

    Take care,
    [1] In my case I was not “disfellowshipped” nor did I write a letter of “dissociation.”

  20. messenger says:


    To intelligent people the evolutionary theory should only appear to be an intelligent theory when those intelligent people accepting it choose to deny all evidence contained in scripture that all Bible scriptures are true. I believe you believe it for that reason, because you deny the truth of scripture. You choose to deny the Bible’s truth. It’s a choice. Some of those you referred to, such as Catholicism’s hierarchy, claim to believe in scripture. Therefore if your claim is correct Catholicism’s embrace of the evolutionary theory is idiotic because God’s design plans and creation methods could easily account for all similarities and differences between species, including sharing some DNA and genes. DNA and genes guide an organisms design. Since there are common external characteristics that everyone can see then common sense suggests there would be some similar DNA sequences and genes shared between species, with those sharing more outward characteristics sharing more genes and DNA sequences. Therefore, your theory cannot be proven if God exists. Similar DNA and genes would, in that case, be the way God designed and created organisms. To prove your theory you would have to prove God does not exist, which you cannot do.

    Others here like tranquillo choose to buy into unproven speculative theories, like when he stated the gospels were written a century or more after Jesus’ death. Again he chooses that belief. The whole world claims otherwise, and yet tranquillo believes the writings of an idiot. One that cannot prove his claim. For if that claim was proven Christian denominations would be aware of it. But tranquillo, go ahead and keep reading what the idiots say. “He that is doing unrighteousness, let him do unrighteousness still….” Rev 22:11 And he that is reading unrighteousness, let him read it still.

    Pay your money and you take your choices. Make your guesses and take your choices.

    Again some of the irrefutable evidence Bible believers have are all the testimonies written and oral from those who have had contact with God and then shared those messages with us.

  21. tranquillo says:

    Quos Deus vult perdere dementat prius… you are still living in your personal middle age. “The whole world claims otherwise”? It seems to me just the opposite, only fundamentalist as you believe otherwise.
    Let’s talk of creationism/evolution, you know you can go on forever on that. Why don’t talk about the Flood for a change?
    take care

  22. outandabout says:

    messenger….of course I can prove God doesn’t exist and I can do in two minutes.

    Lets just look at how big the visible Universe is……so far. The Universe is calculated to be 13.8 billion years old so that means light reaching us from the edge of the visible universe has been traveling at the speed of light ( 10 trillion km’s per year) for 13.8 billion years. The distance is truly staggering and yet somehow, it was all created for Us? You must be joking! The Earth is but a pin head amongst all that. We are nothing! To believe it’s all for us requires a level of humility approaching zero and an ego the size of the Universe itself, but then, that is exactly what your belief system requires of you, no, DEMANDS of you while also maintaining you are the humblest group of people on Earth. It doesn’t wash.

    There’s also something else to take note of – the Universe is not only expanding, meaning the objects contained within are becoming further apart, but the speed of the expansion is also accelerating. Interestingly, your belief system absolutely demands that everything, including your thoughts, stay in one place but everything around you is in motion. The only constant is change, messenger. Your’e stuck in a time warp. The world is moving and growing and changing without you but you don’t mind tagging along for the good bits though, aye, while condemning it all at the same time.

    Your belief system is a an insult to human intelligence and a disgrace to Academia.
    Not only does your belief absolutely demand you be a fool for it, it expects you to be a parrot and puppet as well and you’re doing a fine job of that.

    • messenger says:

      Hilariously you continue to ramble on with ideas you’ve made up or heard others express about Christianity and other subjects, and you reach crazy conclusions not even hypothetically based on facts, just your own thoughts about me, Mr. Missler, Christian beliefs, or what have you. Fifty percent of your ideas are falsehoods that go unchallenged by me and others. Most people are knowledgeable enough about Christian thought to know your ideas are presentations dripping with false statements. The rest of your statements are primarily claims of hatred for every thought that springs from God.

      But it is good to see you apparently realize that if God exists then similar DNA sequences and shared genes between species would be used by God to design organisms, and that it makes sense that species would share certain genes if created by God, being there are many similarities between species. Genes and DNA are instrumental in bringing about those similarities. The same story you’ve possibly heard, or for sure JWs have heard from religion, God’s designs. DNA sequences and genes being major tools establishing God’s designs on Earth.

      No doubt by now you realize the only reason scientists insist the evolutionary theory is valid is because they don’t believe in a God, and so they describe the universe without God’s hand in it.

      I’ll bow out now for a while because your arguments are not very convincing. But in doing so I’ll leave you with a thought. In your religion I guess your god is Mother Earth. Because you claim to believe it is Mother Earth that has decided to form bacteria, and single cells, and then turn those into plants and animals developing eyes, lungs, roots, brains- all designs chosen and brought into reality by Mother Earth. Or is your God Father Time?

      • outandabout says:

        messenger, multiply 10 trillion by 13.8 billion. That’s the radius of the known Universe in km’s in any direction. The Earth is a pin head in size and yet, somehow it’s all made for you and all that infrastructure out there exists for you also.
        No humility and an ego the size of the Universe. Thats what it takes to believe what you believe

        Take away a promise of everlasting life and paradise and your belief would collapse within a generation or two. Nobody in their right mind is going to wreck their Sundays by turning up week after week to a dusty old church to thank god for creating him if death is all that awaits. Thats the sharp end of why you believe, messenger……the desperate need to escape the natural process of dying by forcing yourself to believe an unsubstantiated fairy tale for adults. You’re after the selfish reward but do your best not to admit that to yourself.

        God has said he loves you but if you don’t love him back he will kill you. You’re driven by fear, not love. You’re god’s sycophant while wearing a sickly semblance of a smile. Forcing yourself to love someone you fear is the essence of sado-masochism. There’s no way you can escape that, messenger. Congratulations.

        You’ve said the bible is true in it’s entirety but at the same time know that is not true.

        Jesus promised to return before his apostles died. It didn’t happen.

        Noah’s Ark is a proven myth.

        The story of the virgin birth is used by several belief systems in order to square the circle. Tie up a loose end.

        Sacrifice is used by primitive tribes so that others can go on.
        Jesus was sacrificed so that others can go on. Still primitive at that time.

        The Jew’s returning to Israel is a self fulfilling prophesy. Man made it happen only because the bible said it would. Those Jews are committing atrocities and will never be worthy and a messiah will never appear.
        ISIS tried their best to fulfill a prophesy and have Allah arrive by establishing a caliphate, as predicted in their beliefs. Nothing happened.
        Why is Man so desperate for Armageddon to arrive they take steps to make it happen? Every day of your life you pray for death and destruction to overtake the world. If you don’t do that, you’re not a true believer. It’s a sickness of grand proportions.

        The only reason your beliefs have lasted 2000yrs is because it ruled by terror and making belief compulsory and destroying all opposers. That and lack of a suitable alternative. We now have an alternative that makes far better sense and the fear of not believing has gone.

        Precognition is very common and not necessary biblical at all. There are thousands like you, messenger. You’re not as special as you hope. And what about people who’ve been abducted by aliens all telling the same story? Demons at work? Yeahrrrright! Those abductions didn’t start until the possibility of aliens and flying saucers entered the national psyche. When did god enter the national psyche?

        • Hi Outandabout,

          As per Wikipedia: “The radius of the observable universe is therefore estimated to be about 46.5 billion light-years.” I think your statement rooted in 10T x 13.8 = radius KMs is basically correct, it is just that Wikipedia states it more directly.

          Observable is a key phrase here too. Ideas about a multiverse or cycles of universes (i.e. Roger Penrose) if correct could add size and time dimensions out to incredible values. All in all the insignificance of our solar system and earth is truly hard to express.


  23. Doc Obvious says:

    We need EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) in the United States. Currently it is in the EU.

    Petition your Senators and Reps to pass a law that is like GDPR. This puts each individual in control of their personal information. If the individual feels coerced into signing a consent form, the government will crack down on violators. This is a great law and protects people.

    • Hi Doc Obvious,

      Richard Stallman, president of the Free Software Foundation, has spoke out recently on this. His position is we should create a law that prevents data collection in the first place. That is, only allow public facing systems to collect the minimum necessary data to fit the function. He also points out, that we should be more concerned about government use of data rather than companies.

      While I don’t agree with all of Stallman’s views, I do agree with many of them and always find his commentary thought provoking.


  24. Hi Messenger & Outandabout,

    Just got back from Disneyland. We were celebrating our daughter’s 30th birthday. I was monitoring this thread on my phone — but find responding on my phone tedious.

    [if God exists then similar DNA sequences and shared genes between species would be used by God to design organisms]

    The structure of DNA with it’s four bases of adenine, guanine, cytosine, and thymine has been a long road of discovery. The AGCT “letter” sequences are indeed the same for long stretches within varied life forms, such as a banana and a human. That is a fact beyond dispute. So what does this mean?

    Good scientific theory has to have explanatory power and predictive power. A good scientific theory must also be falsifiable. Finally Occam’s razor needs to be considered. To say “used by God to design” is an example of explanatory power. That is, God is used to explain the existence of both DNA and the fact that different life forms have shared sequences.

    The theory of evolution naturally explains similar sequences by virtue of common ancestor.

    What about predictive power? This is a win for the theory of evolution. Without any knowledge of DNA, Darwin was able to predict something like DNA[1]. Both common ancestor and the idea of information carrying mechanism was included in his theory.

    Alas, it is hard to pin down what the idea of “God designs” actual predicts. If someone who believes in a creator God would like to make a statement on this, perhaps with reference to the Bible, then we could consider that.

    The theory of evolution is easily falsifiable. If DNA mutation was impossible the theory would fail. Messenger’s reference to Mother Earth and Father Time reference other areas the theory could be made false. The Earth and Cosmos must have appropriate conditions and time to allow for life to arise and evolve. This is the anthropic principal and contrary to what some folks claim, actually supports the theory of evolution, because such lends credence to the need for the falsifiable attribute.

    I see no specific way for the idea of God design to be falsified. Literally any conditions within the natural world could be attributed to the hand of God and there would be no way to demonstrate this was not the case. Although Bobby Henderson created the Flying Spaghetti Monster in 2005 as a humorous response to the Kansas Board of Education his point remains valid. There really is no way to demonstrate the FSM is not real and is not a viable creator God. This of course is not a strength of the FSM assertion, but a profound weakness[2].

    Finally there is Occam’s razor. That is how, expensive is each theory? The theory of evolution is by far the cheapest. It rests on nothing more than what we see in the natural world. If we see a banana and ask how did this come to exist, we can readily answer the question by reference to how banana trees flower and grow bananas. If we ask how a wall clock exists, we answer in terms of design and manufacture. In this, we sense biological items come and go out of existence following natural rhythms that do not involve specific design and manufacture.

    In contrast, a creator God is a very expensive proposition. If we assume God is alive and a type of living thing, then we’re faced with regression of who-created-God, otherwise we never wind up actually answering the origin-of-life/species question. We also face the problem of design and creation at one point, followed by biological reproduction afterwards. All biological items we see have arrived by natural processes. Invoking a creator God also raises thorny questions of purpose and morality. Why do ripe bananas turn yellow? If we answer God design them that way to encourage animals to eat them and thus spread the seeds, we then have to face up to huge amount of design failure elsewhere. We have to imagine a creator God laboring on individual creations only to have nearly all of them end in extinction. We have to imagine a creator God who is interested in life also being responsible for a cosmos that is maniacally bent on destroying everything.

    [1] Since so much discussion on this subject confuses these items — it must be stated: The Theory of Evolution says nothing about the Origin of Life. Darwin didn’t know how life originated and to this day it largely remains a mystery. The theory of evolution only addresses the Origin of *Species*.
    [2] As a scientific theory. If there are sincere “pastafarians” it is possible their religion is as meaningful to them as any other.

    • outandabout says:

      thanks for all that effort, Randy. Loved your tee shirt, by the way.
      Despite all my ramblings, I’m still of the mind that if a person has a harmless belief system, then that is nobody’s business. But if a certain belief system is causing harm, then it becomes everybody’s business and needs opposing because in the end, it’s society that picks up the pieces. The day’s of automatic respect for beliefs, however unworthy, are over.
      How nice it would be if sites just like this one needn’t exist.

      • Hi Outandabout,

        [I’m still of the mind that if a person has a harmless belief system, then that is nobody’s business.]

        For the past few years I’ve been struggling with this. The actual truth about the natural world just “is.” It doesn’t care what we believe. But does it matter what we believe? In many cases it doesn’t. A young-earth-creationist could be just as capable of a software engineer as I am or even better. On a cosmic timescale what we believe and do will matter little. Even if we have found a great method of discovering the truth about the natural world we’re still faced with there being more knowledge available than time we have to gain such.

        My current (still evolving) conclusion is actions and context make the difference. If my programming assignment involves crafting software for GPS satellites, then at a minimum I must respect the theory of general relativity as it relates to time dilation to ensure the clocks on orbit run the appropriate amount slower.

        “but the idol made with hands is accursed, and so is the one who made it — he for having made it, and the perishable thing because it was named a god.” – Wisdom of Solomon 14:8

        Thus we see a common area of tension for religious thought. Some folks worshiped idols whereas the Jews disdained them. Who is right? Does it matter?

        I believe how life originated really doesn’t matter in most day to day life. Or at least shouldn’t. What makes it matter is when actions flow from such belief. It is when folks say, since you accept the theory of evolution, then I must shun you or I will assume you are a bad person. The opposite is true too — since you believe in God and reject the theory of evolution, then I’ll think ill of you.

        This is where I think us Ex-JWs can have a great advantage. We know what it felt like to hold sincere beliefs only to reject them later on. Such should lead us to great humility and empathy on these subjects.

        All that I really know is that I’m alive. Not only am I alive, but I am self-conscience form of life that can contemplate the meaning of the cosmos. That is pretty fantastic and gives me ample reason to wish for a good life for myself, my family and everyone else.


    • tranquillo says:

      I for one would really love to go at a meeting of pastafarians!

  25. Donald J Emperor of the Known Universe says:

    Indeed, my children, the observable universe is indeed inconceivably gargantuan, and at the same time, humongous. I have seen most of it through the Divine One’s eyes. It is big. It is humbling. Is it all just for us? HA HA HA HA HA Don’t make me laugh. There are countless civilizations out there, that have evolved, just as our species has. Only a blind fool would put faith in some ridiculous books of fairy tales written by Bronze / Iron Age sun-baked goat herders. Fairy tales are for children. It is now clear to me that it is mankind’s destiny to reach out into the cosmos. As always, we must expand or perish.
    May the Blue Aura be with you.

  26. Whip It says:

    Ricardo & all, i have been of line for a while, Ricardo sorry for the treatment you received, but no surprise, if it was me, i would have ignored the letter & not even gone, knowing the outcome in advance, you can be sure that you were already Ff before you even got to the Hall, thats how they work, i have seen it for myself, no love at all, Ok once you come back to OZ, how do you know that they have communicated with your old congo, do they know where you are going or where you cam from. All very sad my brother, I have a brother here who got divorced no scriptural grounds & eventuality re married, i sat back & watched the witch hunt begin, he won, but he had to employ a private detective to investigate his ex to prove grounds, he won, he beat them, where is the love??? This is not Gods organisation, its a money making life destroying cult, Pack your go bag & run, Gods speed Ricardo,

    • Big B says:

      Wise words for Ricardo, Whip it;

      Hopefully Ricardo will not be so foolish as to try to appeal this decision as he is a marked man. His brother, the elder, has already made his decision to shun him even before his judicial hearing. The appeal will likely involve contacting his congregation in Australia for further evidence supporting the Asian congregation’s decision to disfellowship him. This, along with testimony from his brother, will stymie any chance of a reversal of their decision. Even if Ricardo chooses another group of elders he will find it almost impossible to overturn the decision. Elders stick together especially those who are cultists inquisitors answerable to the Circuit Overseer who in turn is accountable to the evil slave in Warwick, NY.

      Ricardo, the time to mend fences and start your fade have passed. To try and salvage your ‘good name’ at this stage would be colossal waste of time and emotion best spent elsewhere. You’re out and Watchtower free, going back to grovel is what the evil slave wants. Can you survive without being involved with Jehovah’s Witnesses? They’re betting that you can’t! Don’t believe for one minute that going back will change anything, it won’t. This cult is unchristian, doctrinally warped, and is a part of Babylon the Great. They’re holding your family hostage which is why they shun you! You will be watched every minute by the self righteous snitches ready to turn you in for any infraction imagined or not.

      Are you ready for the shunning you will receive by friends and family? Do you really like this cult you’re involved with? Do you believe all Watchtower suppositions prentending to be Biblical truth? Is being a part of this cult worth so much that you are willing to put aside what you can prove through research to go back, sit down, and thank the faithful and discreet slave for the wonderful spiritual food they are providing at the proper time?

      “Pack up your go bag and run” just as Whip it says!

      Big B

      • Ricardo says:

        @Big B, you are correct again. I had the appeal hearing last night. My CO friend helped me put together a presentation that expressed my motives for doing and saying what I did was due to deep compassion for victims, due to being bullied by elders myself. But the hearing was a repeat of the JC: 3 hours of evidence that Ricardo is negative and becoming more brazen. My brother’s email where I called the leadership bullies and unloving was brought up again, as was an sms I sent a brother complaining that leadership come down heavy on the rank and file but are very lenient on themselves, and it seems the organization has become apostate.

        The good thing was that the elders got to hear that they are bullies with plenty of examples given. But these guys will never change.

        Now it’s time for me to take a rest while I contemplate what happens next.

        • Big B says:

          @ Ricardo;

          I do believe that now that your appeal has been heard the next step will be to announce your disfellowshipment from the platform. Whether you attend to hear the ‘bad news’ or not is up to you.

          Personally speaking, I would not give the congregation or the elders the satisfaction of seeing me there to “take my punishment” or give them any hope of my returning to this cult. Once out, I would stay out, period! Any family members that would refuse to speak to me or shun me for speaking the “truth about the truth” is a family of cultists and not worth having.

          My mother in law has been shunning our family since 2013 and we don’t miss her one damn bit. She won’t even read the information my son gave her on the U.N. incident or the child molestation trials, etc. She has her head firmly planted up her own arse and refuses to believe that she is in a cult. To bad, so sad ….for her. However, that’s her choice to make and she can die without any of our family on her death bed as far as I’m concerned. There’s no money coming from her anyway, so no need to put on any pretense of being a good Jehovah’s Witness, is there?

          My axiom is this: if it (whatever “it” happens to be) doesn’t put a potato on my plate, extends my current lifespan, benefits me financially or gives me joy but instead causes me grief, disappointment and financial loss then who needs it?

          Keep your head high, chin up, and don’t ever let them see you cry! You’re the one who is FREE!

          Big B

  27. Resister says:

    Elders, Schmelders. Like the Faithless and Depleted Slave, their only skills in life are tying a tie and belching nonsense into a microphone. That is, assuming their ties are not clip- ons. 😀

    • Resister says:

      Wait a coupla sex. Was I talking about elders or “President” Trump? I get confused sometimes, being a mentally unstable apostate and all. 😀 😀 😀
      P.S. Why are there only 2 teleprompters when the Trumpster gives a speech, 1 to his left, 1 to his right? Doesn’t look natural. Should be 1 in the middle. Hey, what do I know? I’m just an ignorant peasant.

  28. messenger says:

    Donald Trump will go down in history as one of the most effective American presidents. What’s happening now with North Korea, the stock market, unemployment among minorities in the States, unemployment amongst all US citizens, business in America? Notice what happens next with Iran who has threatened Israel.

    President Trump will also probably get funding for his wall with the next national fiscal budget. He’ll probably get other changes to immigration policy also, which will keep some people out of this country to the benefit of American citizens.

    Go ahead and cry in your time out corner like American university students did at the close of last election, name call people who recognize and create effective policy, idolize appeasers and
    ineffective leaders like Obama, cling to media hype. In other words, go ahead and be yourself. Remain as you are.

    Is the reason the for it the I don’t like Daddy complex? Same reason you don’t like God? I just don’t like how Daddy acts!!! Even though he’s got your best interest in mind when carrying out policy?

    No need to answer. We know what it is. It is this: But Daddy did…..?

  29. messenger says:

    I used to be a liberal too. When I didn’t know nothing. And then I grew up. Experience is the most effective teacher. That’s why your here. That’s why you’re alive.You too have a chance to grow up.
    But the clock is ticking.

    A recent article some time back discussed an erroneous JW interpretation of scripture. JWs believe that as long as a person dies before the outbreak of the “great tribulation” then he/she will be resurrected. An anecdotal example:

    My aunt’s husband never accepted JW or any other Christian theology. His wife, my aunt, was an effective pioneer most of her life, baptizing over 60 students. Her belief as expressed to me is that her husband’s death, which already occurred, was the only way he would enter the new system. That teaching includes a lot of speculative thought from WT. Strip it of dogmatism and it is false.

    According to scripture he will enter hell and remain there. If it exists according to a literal interpretation of scripture he will be removed from God’s followers to suffer amongst unbelievers, who then do to him what wicked people already do here, or worse; and if hell is interpreted figuratively her husband won’t exist having faced Christ and been cast off already.

    • messenger says:

      If you need confirmation of the true Bible teaching I mention above then look up Jesus’ comment about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was cast into hell even though he died way before the outbreak of the great tribulation. Christ wasn’t giving that story as an exception, but the story was told to teach God’s policy.

      • Hi Messenger, et al,

        As far as it goes, JWs do a fairly good job of defending their view on the soul, resurrection and hell-fire. To non-JWs reading this: JWs reject nominal Christian doctrines such as immortal soul, literal hell-fire and heavenly life for most of the faithful. Rather the faith is based on dual rewards of heavenly life for 144,000 elect and literal bodily resurrection on paradise earth for all others.

        In this they are making a classic blunder — not seeing the shift in thought between the OT and NT. The average JW will hardly notice that discussions regarding the soul, paradise earth and condition of the dead will most often reference OT passages. In contrast NT authors lived in a different time with different cultural influences. Greek and Roman ideas can appear in the NT, but of course not in the OT, which was written before that time[1].

        When OT authors expressed ideas about crime and punishment from God, the ideas expressed were earthly and nationalistic. The “Day of Jehovah” was presented as a literal visitation on specific identified places. When male homosexual acts were condemned, the punishment was literal death penalty. The dead were dead and the solution was resurrection. Much of their writing style was blunt and literal and focused on national interests of Israel and the superiority of their God Jehovah.

        NT authors lived in a time of advanced philosophy and literature. Since they couldn’t propose ideas that carried national force of law, punishment from God becomes more metaphorical. When Paul condemns certain homosexual acts the punishment from God is merely not inheriting the Kingdom of God along with allusions to negative things that might accompany the behavior. What is missing is any command to actually carry out a death penalty. When Jesus condemns his religious opponents he makes references to the Judgment of Gehenna. But neither him nor his followers at the time pursue a course like Jehu, where religious opponents are gathered up and slaughtered.

        Are NT comments about hell-fire to be understood as literal or metaphor? Many Christians argue for literal and others, such as the JWs and Unitarian Universalists Christians, argue for metaphor. What is obvious is how fear-inspiring the literal view can be. See Jonathan Edwards “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” wherein he vividly explains the peril of the unsaved.

        All in all it is amazing where concerns about God and ultimate justice have taken the imagination of humans. Fortunately there is no real reason to fear hell-fire or future punishment from God — not that I can see — there is just no evidence such things are anything more than faith claims based on human imagination.

        [1] The books of Daniel and Esther are later books and do show some Persian and initial Greek influences. Likewise the “extra” books of the Apocrypha were latter books that pick up some later influences. I’m just now reading the Apocrypha, so my views on the material are not as well informed as I would prefer.

    • Resister says:

      Funny. I used to be a conservative, until I grew up. Not that I’m exactly a politically correct, raging liberal now. LMAO
      P.S. In a previous comment, massager, you obliquely compared Trump to God. I.E. Trump…Daddy…God. Aren’t you God’s messenger? Wouldn’t that be blasphemy?
      You really ARE insane.

      • messenger says:

        And I previously compared you to Satan. Does that make you him, misinformed one?

        • Resister says:

          Keep shovelling that BS, Messenger of Satan. You’re going nowhere.

          • Sardaukar says:

            Resister, don’t waste your breath with this guy. Some people just don’t know when they’re dead.

          • messenger says:

            No. I’m going many places, some here, some elsewhere. But since I’m not your judge I cannot make a prediction on your eventuality. So I offer this generalization. Time will reveal the real Hell. Whether Gehenna, which already is clearly revealed in scripture as a place for the condemned, is also a place of consciousness as most believe, or a place of nonexistence as JWs believe.

            Even if the latter is true still scriptures state rebels will be made aware of their eventuality (a sentence by Christ) before receiving it. See 2 Cor. 5:10 and Rom 14:10,11

  30. Whip It says:

    Romans 6:7 Death pays the cost off Sins, quoting from the NWT, even though its in black & white they still like to Ignore it, i personally thinks its all hog wash myself. Their is one in Corinthians thats states that if you do good to one of Christs followers then you are saved by your deeds, they hate that one to, my Dad was a unbeliever but he did good towards many, based on that he is saved, no no no, you have to do all of this as well, a good friend of mine said i just have to read the bible & get back to basics, well if i did that then i would not be going to meetings, i would take the emblem etc etc, so much man made crap is in this organisation.

    • messenger says:

      The scripture at Rom 6:7 says, “For he who has died has been acquitted for his sin.”

      Two things about those words:

      1. The scripture does not state God is obligated to show the person any favor because of being acquitted after his death. And the rest of the Bible shows God will not show any favor merely because he died.

      2. That scripture claims he is acquitted from his sin. But we know he hasn’t been acquitted like in an Earthly court being found not guilty. Rather it’s just the opposite. The fact is death was a consequence of his sin and should be considered a punishment for it. Thus he was found guilty.

      And what happens when Christ wakes the person out of death? As the scriptures state all will stand before God and Christ. If a person has decided against Christ then according to scripture that person is condemned for eternity. Or, if WT is correct the person will get a second chance to accept Christ. In a more literal interpretation of scripture though he won’t. I’m not siding with either interpretation. But if a person chooses to reject Christ gambling he’ll get a second chance then my belief, shaped by examining all the scriptures (not just those you quoted) is that no second chance will be offered by Christ.

      Also, see Mark 9:39 -42. Christ stated if any good deed was done to another Christian on the basis of the do-gooder being a supporter of Christ (essentially the do-gooder is a Christian or at least one that is on his way to become a Christian) then that helping person would receive a reward. The reward is not just because someone helps others, even when those being helped are Christians. Instead they help the person because the one in need is Christian, and by helping they are supporting Christ, his message and the work he’s doing through others.

      Also see John 5:43 &10:25 where there are parallel ideas. Except those speak of Christ doing works for God-helping God.

  31. Doc Obvious says:

    The May 2018 issue of Gentleman’s Quarterly (a.k.a GQ) stated “The Holy Bible is rated very highly by all the people who supposedly live by it but who in actuality have not read it. Those who have read it know there are some good parts, but overall it is certainly not the finest thing that man has ever produced. It is repetitive, self-contradictory, sententious, foolish, and even at times ill-intentioned.” This statement came from an article written by the editors of GQ magazine titled, “Departments: 21 Books You Don’t Have to Read Before You Die”.

    What is interesting is that men at Bethel read this magazine every month as though it was part of the Watchtower Society’s written works.

    My question, how could anyone read this magazine when the publishers of GQ magazine have a disdain for the Holy Bible? So much so, that the GQ magazine is telling it readership to ignore the Bible.

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