Six former Jehovah’s Witnesses share their stories in powerful new videos
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I was quite lucky, as far as children born into the Jehovah’s Witness religion go.

I was born heterosexual. This meant I never had to struggle with being told that my sexual identity was sinful, and that if I wished to avoid being killed by Jehovah I had to be celibate for life.

I was born male. Therefore I never had to deal with being treated as though I was second class, a talking rib best suited to submissively taking care of the family and not to taking the lead.

I was not (as far as I know) born into a congregation with a hidden child molester, who was waiting for the right moment to strike. Therefore I never experienced the trauma of having my claims of molestation be dismissed for lack of two witnesses, or be accepted but then dealt with via a terribly flawed Judicial Committee process that may have left my abuser in the congregation with just a slap on the wrist.

I was not born into a family that subsequently experienced a disfellowshipping, and as a result had someone I loved torn away from me by religious edict, forbidden to even speak a word in passing to them on the street.

I was never told that the person I was in love with was someone I was not allowed to marry, and that my choice was either to give up my romantic love on the one hand, or give up all the friends and family I loved on the other.

I was never thrust into any of these situations, but the sad fact is that many Witnesses are, and on January 10 of this year, six of them came together to tell their story.

Six ex-Witnesses tell their story

That night I walked through the winter urban chill of London, across Waterloo bridge. Brightly lit landmarks climbed up around the glassy dark water of the Thames as I made my way towards the distinguished University of Kings College. Once inside, I hunted through its long corridors and tracked down the old anatomy lecture room, a small half-amphitheater with tiered seating around a central lecture area. The room had once been used for anatomy students to observe dissections, and in a way that was quite fitting. For the stories that we would hear that night would be much like a dissection; simultaneously grisly yet fascinating.

The event was hosted by the organization Faith to Faithless, a group that works to support people who are leaving their religion under difficult or dangerous circumstances. They have worked with “Ex’s” from all faiths and walks of life, from former Jehovah’s Witnesses undergoing shunning and mental abuse, to former Muslims who are literally at risk of death because of their choice to change their religious beliefs. The goal of the organisation is to give a voice to such ones, and to advocate for their rights.

The event was chaired by popular comedian Deborah Frances White, who also happens to be a former Jehovah’s Witness. Deborah’s presence on the panel worked wonders in two ways; firstly her own story of leaving the religion is a compelling one. Secondly, Deborah is very, very funny, and this humour served well to bring a some needed lightness into what turned out to be an evening with some real gut wrenching moments.

Faith2Faithless have released the videos of the panel and can I just say right now that they are essential viewing. The full video playlist is available below. Go watch them, and them come back and finish this article.

 

The Seventh Tale

Welcome back.

I do want to relate one extra story which was told that night but which does not appear on the videos. It came from an audience member who spoke during a Q&A session that followed; from a gentleman who had been carrying a secret for his entire life growing up as a JW.

He was gay.

He had repressed his sexuality for decades, being told day in day out that a core part of his identity was an abomination to Jehovah and that his only hope was to remain celibate and devoid of romantic love. This had caused him so much accumulated distress that he had recently tried to take his own life. As he was recovering in hospital, he came out to his family; both as a gay man and as someone who no longer believed the faith.

It would be nice to think that in his time of extreme vunerablility and endangerment, Watchtower’s rules would have allowed his family to gather around him in support and help him to heal. But no; apparently the shunning had already started, and so a man in such emotional pain that he’d tried to die was having to rebuild his life without the ones who should love him the most.

Nonetheless, it was clear that being free to be his authentic self had energised him, and the entire room came together to support him both during the panel and afterwards. This is a testimony both to the inhumane cruelty of Watchtower’s shunning policy, and to the kindness and humanity that exists in what Watchtower so dismissively terms “Satan’s World.”

Life after Watchtower: Is it possible?

I’m sure you will agree, the accounts related by the panelists were gripping; stories of awful suffering, but also stories of hope. Each and every one of them has been able to break free of the Watchtower religion and rebuild their lives.

This is essential to understand for any doubting Jehovah’s Witness who wishes to leave the religion but is terrified of what might become of them; Watchtower would have such ones believe that those who leave become miserable failures, addicted to drugs and wishing they were dead.

This is propaganda.

The demonstrable facts are that many, many ex-Witnesses go on to build wonderful lives that are far happier and more fulfilling than the ones they had led whilst under the Orwellian thumb of Watchtower. I know it’s true for me. Since I left, my life has become vastly more fulfilling and enjoyable. I didn’t know how exhilarating freedom from Watchtower’s flawed doctrines and controlling diktat was until I tasted it.

The videos capture the stories, but it’s harder for the videos to convey the atmosphere that was present in the room night. For those of us in the audience who were also ex-JWs it brought back palpable emotions of dread and pain, even for those whose exit from the cult had been a relatively (by JW standards) smooth and painless “fade.” By the end I felt wrung out, drained.

But there were many in the audience who had never been Witnesses, and who had up until now been largely unaware of the way Watchtower ran its ship. The look of astonishment and horror on some of their faces was palpable. At the end of the session, Deborah Frances White asked those audience members to raise their hands if the stories had been much more dramatic and shocking than they had expected.

All their hands went up.

Faith to Faithless co-founder Imtiaz Shams, who had attended the event, later posted this on Facebook:

The illustrated to me two things; firstly that the general public is often still unaware of how harmful an organisation Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is. Secondly, that when informed as to the facts, the public is appalled and want to know what can be done to stop these abuses.

I find this very encouraging as an activist. I feel that the tide is turning when it comes to the public opinion of Watchtower. Not only due to the negative publicly with their child abuse policies and blood transfusion teachings, but also because more and more ex-Witnesses are sharing their stories, both at public events like this one and also in private. I know that since my own fade began I have spoken to many people in casual conversation about the things Watchtower gets up to, and those people are now very much of the opinion that the Jehovah’s Witness organisation is a dangerous cult.

Lastly, the wonderful thing about the internet is that powerful stories like the ones contained on those videos, which once might have been confined to the room in which they were told, can now reach across the world and echo in the ears of the entire human race.

Cults fear information.

And this is the Information Age.

 

 

 

 

 

Follow me on twitter @covertfade

Follow faithtofaithless on twitter @faith2faithless

Follow Imtiaz Shams on twitter @imtishams

Follow Deborah Frances-White on twitter @deborahFW

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115 Responses to Six former Jehovah’s Witnesses share their stories in powerful new videos

  1. David Angeletti says:

    Deborah Frances-White’s one of the most intelligent women around. She is more than a comedian. She inspires people. She is brilliant. Thank you for this update.

  2. Vox Populi says:

    Once again another informative article, Covert Fade.

    The second paragraph of Imtiaz Shams statement really stood out for me. It really makes one look at the JW belief in another light!

  3. messenger says:

    Thanks Covert Fade. They are very touching stories.

  4. Tara says:

    Wow. I mean wow. I think the point that struck home with me was when Cora was mentioning about being sat at the back of the hall for five years. They became flies on the wall and because of the lack of ‘love bombing’ they saw it from a totally different perspective.

    When my daughter was df’d for getting pregnant and then marrying the ‘worldly’ guy and I was starting to be shunned for attending her marriage… it was like how Cora put it… a fly on the wall perspective. You sat there and watched to and listened the hypocrisy that was going on. It really was a huge wake up.. In many regards I am glad it happened because once you are away from the love bombing you see the negative and insidious side of the cult.

    Amazing stories from all on the panel. Thank you Deborah and thank you CF for bringing this to us.

  5. Ricardo says:

    You may have heard me say this in other places, but be patient because I want to have a rant. In this story, Covert, you mention the terribly flawed Judicial Committee process. As an active Witness, I wonder why the Governing Body doesn’t fix this up. The process is not based on any Bible examples. It has been imposed on us by the Governing Body, and so can be altered by the Governing Body without a great deal of fuss.

    In the Israelite times, the older men (who our elders are based on) sat at the front gates of the city, a very prominent place. Their cases could be heard by anyone who was connected with the case. If there was a child abuser brought to them, everybody would know, the Jew or the Gentile in their midst would know. If the older men were incompetent or biased or showing favouritism, the whole community would know. If the older men were unjust, there would be disquiet in the community and everybody would know the older men were turkeys.

    In the apostolic age, when Peter brought to account Ananias and Sapphira, it was done publicly.

    Why must the modern process be done secretly? Why must child abusers be kept secret from the congregation and larger community? Why, when an injustice is done by the elders, it is dealt with secretly? Why not let the whole congregation see what kind of incompetent, spiteful, dishonest, self-absorbed elders we have to deal with? If the congregation knew the tricks and dishonesty and bullying the elders get up to in these meetings, they would be disgusted. Sometimes the brothers and sisters do hear, because it is quietly publicized to brothers and sisters by the victims, and the elders lose the confidence of their flock.

    And always in the Committee meetings we are outnumbered, three elders to one or two of us. And they can get away with murder, lie as much as they like, and then back one another up saying that no such thing was said.

    And these incompetents can ruin our lives with their mistakes and get away with it. And then blame it on us.

    The elder arrangement itself may be based on the scriptures, but it is obviously being implemented in a faulty way. No scrutiny of the elders takes place to keep a standard of quality. Plus they get no training.

    The question remains: Why doesn’t the Governing Body fix up the elder arrangement and the Committee process they have imposed on us? 46 years we have had to put up with a defective elder arrangement, and the GB has not made any significant change to fix it up!

    Do they not see how these two things, the elder arrangement and Committee process, are defective and are dragging both Jehovah’s name and the name of his witnesses through the mud?

    Decent JW’s must see this, surely. Maybe they think they can’t do anything about it. But they can. Complain. Complain to the CO. Complain to your branch. Complain to the GB. Talk about it. Say how disgusted you feel about it. But don’t just stay silent.

    I complained to one CO about the lack of support from the elders. He said, if you don’t expect anything from the elders you won’t be disappointed. What sort of imbecilic answer is this? They are supposed to be looking after our spiritual welfare. When they come to counsel us, can we say, ‘Well, brothers, if you don’t expect anything from me you won’t be disappointed’?

    As an active witness I feel disgusted by the lack of action from our Governing Body. I have lost complete confidence in our leadership. My hearts go out to the victims. The incompetent elders should be held responsible and publicly disciplined.

    It is not hard for real justice to be given. But the organization is so elder-centric that victims are ignored. Even a dog that gets run over by a car is allowed to yelp. However, in the witness organization if you yelp, you are out. This is not justice.

    The public revelation of the dysfunction inside our organization is highly embarrassing and is unnecessary. It is so simple to fix it up. So, why, why, why doesn’t the Governing Body do something?

    • Michel says:

      The term “governing body” does not appear in the New Testament. Neither does the concept of a small, centralised group of leaders. They are God’s self-proclaimed spokesman. “Stop becoming slaves of men.” (1 Corinthians 7:23)

    • Sarah says:

      Because they want to hang on to power. If they admit they were wrong it undermines their position. They believe that they can do what they want.

      Elders are not allowed to inform an accused person what they are accused of, so they can’t defend themselves. Elders makeup their minds as to your guilt before hearing from you. The appeal committee discusses your case with the original committee in secret and reads documents written about you, which you don’t know exist, let alone read. Elders are not allowed to write down on the S77 forms the mistakes they make.

      You won’t find justice with WT, so don’t bother trying to change it. Expose it, by all means.

      • Ricardo says:

        A switched on CO I talked to about why the GB doesn’t fix things up says that the GB is becoming more and more paranoid, and thus are relying on the support of the elders to keep them in power. Thus, the GB is reluctant to fix up their power base so as not to lose the elders’ support.

        Does this seem true?

        You are right, Sarah. The situation must be exposed, and justice must be seen to be done.

    • Jeffreycanning says:

      If a person realises he is homosexual and is a jw he has to remain celibate FOR LIFE… Because some clown in Brooklyn says so.

      My mate Ted was warned several times not to smoke, he had been smoking 40 years and found it impossible to give up. He got turfed out, had to eat alone when married kids came over… Wasn’t invited to youngest sons wedding and died shortly thereafter.

      Shame on all who know this is a wicked man made religion yet still attend.

      • outandabout says:

        But where else would they go, Jeffery?

        • Ejecting to Sanity says:

          ‘Out’ Can’t tell if u mean this question (where would they go?) Or if u are being sarcastic. They could go anywhere, no where, just so it isn’t the KH. Remember, as all good witnesses know : a little leaven…. or. Would you eat the apple if… or … would u drink the water if it had a drop of poison.
          These r constantly used to drill into the publishers that All other religions and churches are satanic, false. So now that we know the KH is full of ‘poison’ and ‘leaven’ the pivotal action is leaving. ‘Where to go’ comes much later.

          • Ejecting to Sanity says:

            Out..just reread the thread and probably didn’t need to comment.. always wanting to add my 2 cents I guess… lol. Wish we could talk to those who are stuck face to face, and try to jog some of their reasoning points into the right context.

          • messenger says:

            JW members in Kingdom Halls were subjected to another lesson in hypocrisy this weekend, during their WT study. Among other hypocritical statements the lesson thoroughly discussed how in the past denominations of Christendom forbade their congregants from questioning their churches on positions of scriptural interpretation and organizational matters. And the lessen stated how those members that did question their apostate churches were severely disciplined. The study also condemned those denominations for having separate clergy and laity classes. And again the point was made that members of those churches that read the Bible recognized a disagreement between what it taught and what their churches taught. The WT has stated more than once that many JWs who only read the Bible without WT guidance within two years fail to believe the interpretations of WT.

            So again, it was another example of WT’s hypocritical teaching. They could have been writing about their own behavior, it was so easy to see their behavior in the things they wrote. To address Ricardo’s question, “Why can’t more JWs see it?” Because the religion started as an apostate off shoot that has hypocritically preached false interpretations from its inception, and they fooled all of us with their false interpretations. Satan appearing as an angel of light, possessing members, or false apostles who appear as ministers of righteousness.

        • Sheila Rae says:

          outandabout, it’s not “where else would they go”, but *to whom would they go*, Jesus invited “come to me all who are laden down, and I’ll give you rest.” See also John 6:67-69: “…So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?” Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.
          We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”…

    • chantal says:

      Ricardo, you seem so compassionate and so awakened about the GB, etc. I am wondering how you can be a self-described active Witness. Believe me, I know all that entails.

      • Ricardo says:

        @chantal, all the signs are there that this organization that teaches about Jehovah (in contrast with its claim of being Jehovah’s organization) does not want me to be in it. And somehow I have a natural flair for annoying elders. Combined with a bravery to speak out, a desire to help other victims who have been abused to their limit as I have, and finding support in a switched on CO who helps me to write the right things in protest to the abuse I cop, I think I am probably someone the GB dislikes very much. But it seems I am successful in annoying the leadership as much as they annoy me.

        But I believe Jehovah understands, the CO commends me, messenger supports me, and a whole lot of victims think my answers at the Kingdom Hall are fantastic. If I could only find someone else like me, we could create absolute havoc.

        Having been abused so much, I have much sympathy for the victims, even those who have left.

        I don’t agree with disfellowshipping, as imperfect men who have an agenda could easily kick you out even though you are innocent. So I don’t mind mixing with disfellowshipped ones. Neither do my fellow heretics. We have seen behind the curtain of this organization, and we don’t like what we see. And I like to tell the zombies in the Kingdom Hall about it to shock them out of their complacency.

        My fellow heretics and I agree very much with most of the things Cedars brings out in his Youtube videos. It is great to see someone else who is switched on.

        Who knows, the witnesses may kick me out for real one day. But they better have their facts right, cos I will be fighting mad.

    • messenger says:

      Ricardo the WT organization wasn’t founded to be an egalitarian community. Russell founded the WT with the intent that so long as he lived it would be run as he decided, like a sole proprietor business. He wrote that in his will. After he died Rutherford fired the editors Russell wanted to carry on editing WT publications after his death, even though Russell’s intention to have them do that was written in his will. Because they were not voted into their corporate positions-as required by law- while Russell was alive, then Rutherford, who was a lawyer, and knew that, fired them. After that he ran the WT as if he too were a sole proprietor of a corporation.

      With that type of origin we can’t expect the WT to morph into one run with purely Christian principles. We can’t expect it to be like Christianity in the first century. The claim that it is just a facade and false. What you’re experiencing is what it did morph into, a religion still run with authority officials who will not accept your belief, the belief that you are in a position scripturally to challenge their decisions even through recommendations and not demands-defined by WT as theocratic order.

      • Ricardo says:

        @messenger, I am aware that Russell wasn’t desirous of an organization, but rather a grouping of like minded individuals who may belong to other religions.

        I wonder what things would have looked like if this was continued.

        But instead, now we have an organization with a zillion rules which tells us with complete innocence that we don’t have rules but principles.

        I am convinced by your comments and by other like minded ones that Jehovah would find it satisfactory if we worship him in an individual way, even apart from the witnesses. However, sometimes there is something beneficial (among the nonsense) which can help us live a godly life presented at the meetings.

        And there are victims, like I was, wondering what in blazes is happening, why are they getting picked on, or even abused, and they are being told it is their fault. I enjoy giving these ones support and helping them to see where the real fault lies.

        Maybe revolt in the ranks will bring this organization down. It seems unlikely, but I hope something happens to repay the suffering this organization has caused and which it refuses to repair.

        • messenger says:

          Biblically we are told to meet together in groups. That’s in the scriptures. I personally share your belief, that a Christian can be a JW and still be accepted by Christ. Although I don’t know if they can if they spread wrong ideas and pass those off as Biblical, uphold injustices, or harm others, even if their religion tells them to do those things.

          You may have noticed, in our recent WT study, that the WT again made the point that early church leaders brought in ideas from Plato and Aristotle to apostasize the church. I imagine they were referring to the immortality of the soul belief. When we read letters from the apostle, say Romans, Galatians, then all Paul’s letters, then the letters from the other apostles, there is another apostate teaching warned against that is more predominant than the teachings of Plato that the WT warns against. The apostles’ letters warn against Christians holding the belief that following laws and rules makes a person to get right with God. Exactly what you complain about, and what I agree the WT does, is what those letters most often warn us about.

          I personally feel the implementation of unscriptural laws is a more dangerous sin, from a salvation perspective , than believing wrong interpretations. The scriptures can be interpreted different ways. Even some important points, like what happens to us after we die. For instance, notice this quote from the New International Version Bible:”The grave below is astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to meet you.” Isa:14:9

          The WT teaches that someone who interprets that literally is an apostate. But it doesn’t make sense to me that people would loose salvation for that reason while WT adherents, who have believed and taught many false teachings themselves, should be saved.

          • Ricardo says:

            Messenger, I agree with you 100%. I am quite interested to know your understanding of Jesus’ illustration about the dragnet. I think the current understanding is way off, the former understanding was almost correct. I still haven’t come to an understanding I am satisfied with. But my understanding is that there are good people in all religions, that Watchtower isn’t God’s organization, rather it is an organization that teaches about Jehovah. I don’t think there is any need for there to be God’s organization. I think Jesus illustration about the faithful and discreet slave was only meaning to be on the watch and tell others about the good news of the Bible. Not about a group of men instructing us what to believe who constantly change their mind.

            But where the other religions fit in, and if God is involved, seems to be included in the dragnet illustration, but I can’t quite get it. Can you explain?

          • dee2 says:

            Ricardo,

            According to @messenger:

            “The scriptures can be interpreted different ways.”

            So any interpretation will do, even the former, latter, old version, new version interpretations by the WT or you could choose to believe any of the other end times interpretations within Christianity.

            Any interpretation will do even though they make God look like the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) given that the various interpretations are conflicting and lead to different outcomes.

            Here are some competing end times interpretations/theologies to choose from:

            – HISTORICAL PREMILLENNIALISM

            – DISPENSATIONAL PREMILLENNIALISM : (a.k.a. DISPENSATIONALISM )
            Timing of the Rapture & Tribulation:
            • Pre-Tribulation Rapture: (or “pre-trib”)

            • Post-tribulation Rapture: (or “post-trib”)

            • Mid-Tribulation Rapture: (or “mid-trib”)

            • Pre-wrath Rapture:

            • Partial Rapture:

            – AMILLENIALISM: (Also sometimes referred to as nonmillennialism, nunc-millennialism, or realized millennialism)

            – POSTMILLENIALISM: (Also known as”Christian Reconstruction”, “Kingdom Now Theology” and “Dominion Theology.”)

            – PRETERISM
            – Full Preterism
            – Partial Preterism

            – NO MILLENNIALISM:

            – PANTELISM

            According to Messenger, anyone will do even though they lead to different outcomes.

        • messenger says:

          Hi Ricardo,
          Please disregard dee2s assertions about what I believe. Her views appear to be rather narrow, and she definitely does not express my beliefs accurately.

          Anyway in answer to your question about the dragnet parable. First let me say I don’t know what the current WT teaching is on it, and I don’t feel it’s worth my time to look that up.

          In a past blog I had a debate with someone named sirus T concerning the harvest and the separating work.
          From reading scriptures without relying on a WT slant this is what I understand those parables to mean and the reasons for my belief: The dragnet parable, the wheat and the weeds parable, and the separating of the sheep and goats parable all speak of people being separated into two groups by ANGELS at the conclusion of the system of things, a phrase which denotes the end of this world as man has known it. That’s why in my debate with sirus T I claimed we are currently in a sowing period, not a reaping or harvesting period. It is true that Jesus told his apostles that they would reap/harvest people even in his day. But Christ was referring to brining people into a relationship with him, harvesting them for Christ, and not separating them for life at the end of this world.

          The WT takes the position that they along with angels are, in a sense, harvesting individuals for life now. Not only do I not see that indicated in scripture, but the actions of WT speak against that belief to me. WT originally obtained a following by spreading lies about dates and other Bible interpretations, and they continue to use similar tactics to convert. I don’t believe God would use such an organization as the sole harvester of his people. But more importantly, and to the point, the Bible claims angels do the harvesting at the end of the world. And at least two of those parables speak of Christianity as a whole not a mere part of it or an isolated sect.

          Now, when I told dee2 that there are different Bible interpretations, and I don’t believe every saved person must believe exactly the same way I didn’t mean that statement should apply to issues of salvation, and I believe I made that clear in my comment to her. Even the WT believes as I do in that regard. For though the WT has had conflicting beliefs throughout their history they have always believed their members were saved, and after they changed their belief systems they thought the JWs that died prior to those changes were saved.

          Ricardo please read the early chapters of Isaiah. In them you’ll see that the leaders showed a lack of concern for their congregants as some do today.

          Even though Christians are told to be peaceable with all men, there are exceptions. W alsoe are told not to associate with a man prone to anger. So, when a person, elder or otherwise, continues to abuse us, then we are told not to associate with him. For continued association will lead to continued abuse. And it doesn’t matter if he abuses us with a smile on his face, denies that he does it, is in a position of authority, or a religious organization tells us we should associate with him. That’s not what the scriptures say. And it’s not what Jesus did, or David did with Saul, or Jacob did with Nabal, etc.

          Best wishes my friend!

    • dee2 says:

      Strange how JWs like to brag and boast that they are so different from the world and are superior to everyone else and oh what a spiritual paradise JWdom is yet there are these problems which you have described. How elitist the JWs are yet they have the same problems which plague any religious power system.

      • messenger says:

        a simple answer dee2. They are any religious power.

      • Ricardo says:

        dee2, I hate the boasting our brothers go on with. The victims are just stepped over as if they are invisible, and everybody id expected to clap their hands along with: If you’re happy and you know it clap your hands.

        The zombies are there clapping like mad, while the victims are sharpening their teeth.

        Other brothers might say: What do you expect. It is an imperfect organization.

        However, an organization that is sheep-centric and which really has love would be looking at ways to help the sheep recover and would be sympathetic and attentive to our needs. Instead we have an organization that ignores us and just hopes we will go away, become inactive, or even better disassociate ourselves so as to prove our lack of suitability. We have an organization which is elder-centric, in which the elders cover for one another. Like messenger says, power has become an issue, and I can see the GB is terrified of losing it.

        • Ricardo says:

          The elder arrangement itself could be a wonderful arrangement if it was implemented properly. It all sounds good: if you are having spiritual problems and need help, see an elder; shepherding calls being made to encourage us; working with us in the field service giving us commendation.

          The reality is we rarely see the elders in the field service cos they don’t come out; we get criticized rather than commended; if you see an elder about a spiritual problem he will most likely misunderstand the problem, mess up the advice he should give, ruin your life and then shrug his shoulders saying it’s not his fault, he hasn’t been trained for this; and rarely are shepherding calls made.

          The implementation of the arrangement is flawed, and has been for the past 46 years. But the GB doesn’t want to fix it.

    • Big B says:

      @ Ricardo:

      Firstly, great article and the experiences were sadly, spot on.

      Great comment (rant) Ricardo. The organization including the body of elders is definitely flawed. As to your question; “So, why, why, why doesn’t the Governing Body do something?”

      First, they have to believe there is a problem, which they don’t. They are (in their own eyes) God’s spirit begotten (directed) earthly organization. They have all the answers and if you want a second opinion you are free to ask them again, and get the same opinion, if you wish.

      Second, the hubris of this Organization, especially the so called ‘Governing Body’, is apparent to anyone who decides to remove their head from out of their anus and see things for what they are, not for what they are TOLD they are.

      Thirdly, the very idea to question the Organization is, unfortunately, considered traitorous bordering on apostasy. They believe that to question the Governing Body on any policy or doctrinal interpretation is stepping totally out of bounds and warrants a trip to the back room for an “attitude adjustment.”

      “I have lost complete confidence in our leadership. My hearts go out to the victims. The incompetent elders should be held responsible and publicly disciplined”.

      Well said Ricardo, however since the incompetent elders are now appointed by the C.O. the Governing Body has, once again, added another protective layer to shield them from the decisions of the incompetent elders. Yes, Ricardo, the C.O. will be the ‘patsy’ and take the fall for HIS decision to appoint the untrained elders in the first place. The G.B. will, once again, walk away with ‘clean hands’.

      Time to vote with your feet and leave Ricardo so as to free yourself from this apparent aggravation. The Society will never change except by gunpoint. Why?

      “BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROBLEM; you are the one that has the problem! Namely, the problem of a COMPLAINING SPIRIT because this is GOD’S Earthly Organization. You must wait patiently for Jehovah to set matters straight, and leave matters in Jehovah’s capable hands”. Does this reasoning sound familiar my friend? It should to anyone who reads this as this is the standard argument used against anyone who dares question the elders or G.B.

      Every one of your points, Ricardo, is truly valid and proves that you can see through the ‘purple haze of indoctrination, which is why I left along with my family. From childhood (1957-58) over a half century of lies and deceit, enough is enough already!

      Good Luck to you Ricardo, and your waking from this cult!

      Big B 🙂

      • Ricardo says:

        Thanks for the confirmation, messenger. What a sad picture of our organization.

        I don’t want to leave yet. I may fade a bit, but I want to see the numbers decrease and watch these bullies reap what they sow. I can help more victims understand the situation, as well as build up a group of dissenters who can be taught how to reverse the situation on the elders.

        I think I can do more damage the official way than by identifying as an apostate, although with all the anger inside I feel I shall shortly become radicalized. Which will be interesting to see: what happens when the sheep grow teeth… and carry baseball bats.

        Your words are a comfort and I am thankful for them.

        • Ricardo says:

          Sorry, Big B, I meant to include you in that thanks. I am grateful for your support and kind words. Please do not take to heart my forgetfulness. If I could speak like an elder I would say: I am an imperfect man and I make mistakes some times. If you don’t expect too much from me you will not be disappointed.

          • Big B says:

            @ Ricardo,

            As pointed out above by ‘messenger’, “The WT has stated more than once that many JWs who only read the Bible without WT guidance within two years fail to believe the interpretations of WT.”

            That begs the question “Why?” The answer is simple; the Watchtower is skewed in its reasoning, its dogma and its doctrine comes from a drunken sot; namely J.F. Rutherford. If more people read the scriptures without Watchtower interpretations (i.e. helps) or interference they would come to totally different logical conclusions.

            For example: do you suppose, for one minute, that Jesus was talking about a group of people, in the 1st Century, that would be revealed 1900 years later when talking about the “other sheep?” Furthermore that group was the same “Great Crowd” that would survive Armageddon, thus the expression that only J.W.’s believe, “the Great Crowd of Other Sheep.” This was one of J.F. Rutherford’s pearls of wisdom; along with field ministry (which he did not participate in unless you count his recorded message played at the doorstep), Kingdom Hall, and the name Jehovah’s Witnesses (changed from IBSA) all of his devising.

            Basically, the majority, if not all, of mainstream churches in Christendom recognize that the ‘other sheep’ Jesus mentions are the 1st Century Gentile proselytes (converts) that had taken an interest in Jesus’ message and came into the early church with the conversion of Cornelius.

            All of this being said, if the Watchtower Organization “changed” the way they did things they wouldn’t be Jehovah’s Witnesses. They would morph into something else! Because Jehovah’s Witnesses = Rutherfordium Advent-ism.

            So Ricardo, I will never be disappointed or chide you for any choice you decide to make. It is, after all, your choice.

            That being said, please do not wait for “change” from this organization as you will die an old man, waiting.

            Been there, done that, and I didn’t get a tee shirt. I got true freedom instead. 🙂 Big B

  6. Franco says:

    I had a very close friend that was homosexual. He worked so hard at fighting it. He even gotten married and had a kid. His marriage fell apart and he was left alone struggling with his feelings. I was disfellowshipped at the time and couldn’t help him. He committed suicide to end his crushing torment. It hurts so much to imagine his pain and inner conflict being so strong that death was preferable. A belief system that convinces people that ending get life is the best way to go is diseased. His blood is on their hands.

    • dee dee says:

      This isn’t no ones fault that your friend ended his life because of his own guilt feelings gods standards and his words are true. He destroyed sodum and gomorah for the same practices in lots days and his words tells us the same thing today.1cor 6:9,10.plainly says we will not inherit gods kingdom, or paradise.so stop blaiming everyone else for our own faults if we cant change who we are and what we become. but only god knows the finale judgement of all of us. But still I’m sorry for what happen to your friend and pray god forgives him in the new world for taking his own life.

      • dee2 says:

        dee dee,

        The story about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah teaches us that homosexuality is wrong but:

        ***Rape is OK:

        In Genesis 19:8, Lot offered his two (virgin) daughters to be gang-raped by the men of Sodom if that would appease them. Since young women were generally married by the age of 15 in that culture, his daughters would probably have been 14 years old or younger.

        What a violent and degrading way for a female to be introduced to sex. I’m sure the daughters would gladly look forward to having sex with their betrothed after such a terrifying experience, assuming they survived it. Fortunately for the daughters, the mob declined Lot’s offer of his daughters.

        Any moral person, or father, would have physically fought to safeguard his daughters from mass rape. I’m sure if his guests were moral people, they would have fought too. Safeguarding male adults at the expense of (virgin) daughters can never be the right thing to do.

        While it is important to be hospitable and kind to strangers, safeguarding male adult guests can never be more important than preventing the rape of your own children. Lot’s priorities seem irreconcilable with any form of goodness.

        For his bravery in trying to save his male guests by sending his daughters to get raped, Lot was favoured by God, and was saved from Sodom’s destruction by God’s angels (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19). Lot is also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8).

        God was apparently not critical of Lot for offering his two daughters to be raped. If he were, he might have decided to not save Lot and his family.

        Although the men of Sodom did not accept Lot’s offer, there is every indication he would have gone through with it if they had. There is no condemnation in the Bible, indeed no elaboration of any kind, related to Lot’s offer. Evidently the biblical author didn’t feel it was unreasonable enough to warrant comment.

      • dee2 says:

        dee dee,

        The story regarding the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah teaches us that homosexuality is wrong but:

        ***Incest is OK:

        Genesis 19:30-38 describes how Lot’s daughters got their father drunk with wine on two successive nights, and how they became pregnant without their father being aware that they had committed incest.

        There is no word of opposition about this in the Bible yet inbreeding causes countless genetic problems in families, which get worse per occurrence and leave detectable dents in the genetic makeup of species.

        A closer examination of the account reveals that it is more likely that Lot himself was the incest perpetrator; his daughters were victims. Lot may have frequently perpetrated acts of incest with his daughters for the following reasons:

        The daughters could not have believed that there were no men in the world. They had just come from Tzo’ar where there would have been plenty of men. Abraham, their great-uncle was situated about a day’s walk away.

        If Lot had often committed incest with his daughters then they would have known just how we would behave after drinking wine and be able to predict the consequences.

        The chances of two conceptions by two women on successive nights is very slim. Kutx writes: “So it’s much more likely that these pregnancies were the result of repeated incestuous activity.” The chances of pregnancy resulting from a single random sexual act by a fertile couple is on the order of one in 50. One might conclude that the chances of both daughters becoming pregnant on successive nights would be one in 2,500. Further, the chances of both producing a boy would be about one in 10,000. However, women who live in the same household often find that their menstrual cycles are synchronized. So, the chances would be much more than 1 in ten thousand, but would still be a very unusual happening.

        In Genesis 19:8, Lot offered his two daughters to be gang-raped by the men of Sodom. That could be an indication of Lot’s sexually degenerative practices.

      • dee2 says:

        dee dee,

        The story about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah teaches us that homosexuality is wrong but:

        ***Drug rape (date rape) is OK:

        Drug rape or date rape are terms which describe the use of medication to render a person helpless, or at least uninhibited, so that they can be forced to engage in sexual behavior against their will.

        Genesis 19:30-38 describes how Lot’s daughters got their father drunk with wine on two successive nights, so that they could have sexual intercourse with him in order to have children by him, without their father being aware that they had committed incest.

        There is no word of opposition about this in the Bible.

      • dee2 says:

        dee dee,

        The Bible not only condemns homosexuality, it also commands that homosexuals be killed:

        Leviticus 18:22, 29: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
        For whoever commits any of these abominations shall be cut off from their people.”

        Leviticus 20:13: “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.”

        Do you agree with this? Would you kill a homosexual? If not, why not?

      • dee2 says:

        dee dee,

        You stated:
        “I’m sorry for what happen to your friend and pray god forgives him in the new world for taking his own life.”

        – If this homosexual person had remained alive until Armageddon God would destroy him then. But by dying BEFORE Armageddon this homosexual person will be resurrected. So it’s best to die BEFORE Armageddon and not at Armageddon since you will be resurrected – committing suicide seems to have been the better option for this homosexual person.

        – Further, if this person still remains a homosexual when resurrected in the new world, God will be sure to kill him then. But it seems God will not be able to get rid of a resurrected homosexual so easily since, according to the Bible, resurrected persons can die ONLY ONCE, not twice:

        **Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):

        “The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”

        **Hebrews 9:27 New International Version (NIV):

        “Just as people are destined to DIE ONCE, and after that to face judgment”.

        (emphasis mine).

  7. Ted says:

    The statement at Matt,5:32 (supposedly made by Jesus,) that
    adultery is the only way out of a bad or disastrous marriage is,
    if one or other partner commits adultery. This seems to
    contradict his pronouncements against the rigid legalistic
    application of the Law by the Pharisees, which paid little attention
    to the complexities of life.

    So a wife would have to stick with a brutal husband, or if for her
    own safety she left him she would have to remain celibate for the
    rest of her life. That is if she wanted to be approved by God and
    Jesus. Of course it could be a man with a brutal wife, oh yes.
    Remember serial killer Aileen Wuornos, murdered 7 men.
    Extreme example I know but it proves a point.

    The same lifetime condemnation to celibacy would apply if one
    partner deserted the marriage, I think, If I heard correctly this is
    what happened to Cora, and her later marriage to Mike was not
    recognised as scripturally legal by the JW congregation.

    How can such a ruling be from a consummate intelligence, when
    it falls to take into consideration that there’s more than just adultery
    that can destroy a relationship? Creaky ancient laws that are best
    left where they are.

    • messenger says:

      Ted when you consider what Christ said about the concession Moses gave Jews for their grounds for divorcing then what you commented about doesn’t appear to be a salvation issue. I’m not Christ, and I don’t presume to speak for him, but look at all those wives the ancient servants of God had, yet the Bible claims they were God’s servants. If all those wives didn’t cause those ancient men to loose God’s favor then it seems kind of ridiculous that a couple on this panel got disfellowshipped for getting married when WT claims she didn’t have a proper grounds for divorce and remarriage.

  8. Vox Populi says:

    Message for Lloyd

    Just bought your book – The Reluctant Apostate – off Amazon. Should arrive this coming Wednesday or Thursday. Looking forward to the read.

  9. I Foster says:

    From what I understand, reporting of suspicion of child abuse is not mandatory in the UK. One of the main reasons given is that mandatory reporting to the authorities would overload the system and could even be counterproductive.
    However, it should be Law that any child abuse internal inquiry conducted by any institution, including the Jehovah’s Witnesses, be brought to the attention of the authorities, that is the police.
    All institutions and organizations must be made aware that child abuse is a crime and not just a sin. The Law must override institutions and organizations in this matter.
    Failure to report such internal inquiries to the police should result in prosecution of those conducting the inquiry. In the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Elders would face prosecution for any such failure.
    The Law must take a tougher stand in this matter.
    Could Convert Fade, together with others who give voice to ex-JW’s, appeal to MP’s and Government concerning such a Law in regards to internal inquiries of child abuse?

  10. twistedsister69 says:

    In regard to child abuse and shunning, here is another charming group to watch out for

  11. twistedsister69 says:

    PRIDE GOETH BEFORE A FALL
    I’m no sociologist or psychologist, but I would guess that one of the main attractions of a cult is the feeling/belief of feeling “SPECIAL” or “DIFFERENT” – read “BETTER”. It’s certainly nothing new, but in today’s world it’s hammered into everyone’s head: “YOU’RE SPECIAL…YOU’RE SPECIAL…YOU’RE SPECIAL…” WTF does that even mean??? If you think it through, you realize that if we’re all “SPECIAL”, then we’re all ultimately THE SAME – right back to Square One. LOL It’s MEANINGLESS. I just want to live my life and have fun. You can keep the “SPECIAL” sh*t! In my experience, I’ve found that the degree of “SPECIAL”-ness someone thinks they possess, is directly proportional to how BORING, STUPID, and AGGRESSIVE/BELLIGERENT/DISHONEST they are. No kidding. But I digress. Going back to cults/cultish behavior, the pathetic irony is this: Folks who desperately seek out that feeling of “specialness” usually end up connecting with other like-minded individuals (whether in an actual cult, or not), bend over backwards to CONFORM to all the bullsh*t rules & regulations & standards of behavior/speech/dress (whether expressly laid out or not), LOSE ALL THEIR INDIVIDUALITY (specialness), and become NOTHING but a mere cog in a giant (or not-so-giant) COLLECTIVE.
    Just like the BORG – “You will be assimilated…resistance is futile.”

  12. Chase Smith says:

    LOL I just feel like when ever someone does something wrong, that is clearly said in the Bible. Associating with someone that does not share your faith is terrible. It distances you from the truth. They longer place someone in the back of the hall. We are still human, our judgment is clouded at the end of they day regardless. We are not 100% perfect. We are refining our rules and beliefs even more to how Jehovah wants. It takes time. Back then the isrealites were murdered for fornication. And yes, that was approved my Jehovah himself. It’s his commandment. We humans see things cruel at times, but how can we ever comprehend this, what is good for us, when some leave the truth just because they are apprehended and signaled. No no no, but it’s fine, it has always been proven, once departed, you for ever have a hole in your heart, never truly happy. The only purpose we have is to serve Jehovah, when that is gone, what else is there. Work? Get money? And die? Please. If you think we were made to do that, you belong in this website lol good day

    • Ricardo says:

      Chase, when something is wrong, terribly wrong, and many people are suffering because of it, the loving thing is to fix it up.

      However, in our organization there are things that are shockingly broken, causing much misery, and instead of fixing it up we are told that: Jehovah will fix it when he is ready, so just pray; Jesus is in charge of the congregation and he knows what is happening; the holy spirit is the most powerful force in the universe and can fix anything; and the organization is lead by imperfect men who are sure to make mistakes.

      And the suffering in the congregations continues, and Jehovah and Jesus as two of the most loving entities in the universe do nothing about it.

      Why not just fix the mess so victims don’t need to suffer and so Jehovah’s name, as well as our own as his witnesses, is not dragged through the mud? What praise is being brought to Jehovah when it is revealed that child abuse is not handled properly or even lovingly, and that mental and emotional abuse is rife in an organization where bullying is the norm from the leadership?

    • dee2 says:

      Chase Smith,

      Living forever on a Paradise earth without the prospect of ever dying certainly sounds enticing doesn’t it?

      But I note that according to WT theology, the 144,000 who go to heaven do NOT have to go through 1000 years of refinement in order to become perfect, they become perfect instantly upon being resurrected. Yet the people who will survive Armageddon and those who will be resurrected on earth will have to go through 1000 years of refinement in order to become perfect.

      Why is this the case? Why the inequity between the two groups?

  13. Caroline says:

    Chase, I stopped going to meetings in the summer of 2014 and I have never been happier since I left.

    According to your other post, you are not baptized yet, so why do you say “we” are refining our rules and beliefs even more to how Jehovah wants? That doesn’t make any sense if you are not baptized to say “we” are refining “our” rules.

    When you say “we” are refining “our” rules, it sounds more like a man made religion and not one that is being directed by Jehovah or Jesus. If Jehovah and Jesus were directing the Organization, they would not need refining.

    By the way, do you think that fornicators should be killed since it was Jehovah who you say was the originator of that rule?

    Jehovah was the originator of the Law to Moses and according to that law, if a girl could not prove that she was a virgin on her wedding night, she was to be stoned to death.

    Also, girls who were caught being prostitutes were to be burned to death according to Jehovah’s rules but Jehovah thought it was fine and dandy for the men to have as many wives as they wanted and concubines and there is no age limit on how old a girl was when her father sold her as that man’s wive or concubine or slave.

    According to the Bible, Judah went to a “temple” prostitute (or at least he thought she was a temple prostitute) and where was the punishment for him to do that and by the way, Jehovah’s temple or tabernacle had not been set up yet, so what exactly kind of “temple” did Judah go to and remember Judah is exemplified by the Society as a good person since Jehovah used him to sire a male child who would go on to be one of Jesus ancestors. The Society doesn’t care that he wanted to burn his daughter-in-law for doing the exact thing that he actually did but she had not done and was not guilty of doing but he was guilty of doing. It was only the women or young girls who were punished for fornication as you put it and they were to be either burned or stoned to death and since there is no age limit on how old those girls were in the Bible when they were sold as wives and concubines.

    Another thing that you think Jehovah is such a good god over is that he accepted child sacrifice for winning wars against killing men, women and children for living in parts of the world that Jehovah said belonged to the Israelites as in the case of Jephthah’s vow and his killing of his daughter because Jephthah made a vow to Jehovah if Jehovah would help him win a war when Jephthah had already killed many thousands of innocent men, women and children in all the other wars he supposedly instigated on Jehovah’s commands.

    Abraham was not surprised when Jehovah asked him to burn his son Isaac and immediately agreed to do that so what does that tell you about Abraham and his god?

    Read Acts 7:42-43 and see that the Israelites were worshipping Molech all the time they were in the wilderness and that is the god that made all those laws that you think are so great.

    Molech was the god who wanted burnt child sacrifices and animal sacrifices and that is the God that the Israelites were worshipping and that is the god you worship and that is why you approve of disfellowshipping people because that is the kind of evil god you worship.

    • Chase Smith says:

      Lol yessss because u know how Moses felt. Moses could’ve easily had a struggle within himself. But since he wanted to show he was faithful to our creator he attempted to do it. And that is a powerful scene of obedience! Amazing example!

  14. Ted says:

    Chase my friend, I left the JWs 35 years ago and like
    Caroline I’m much happier as a result. I don’t have a
    hole in my heart, as you say, my life is more complete
    since I left.

    I am much less judgemental of people, my circle of
    friends is not restricted to just those who have the same
    religious belief,or lack of as me. The self righteous
    attitude I formerly had, that I belonged to a holy elite and
    everyone else were under satanic control and only fit for
    destruction, thankfully has gone. All just Filthy Rags Isa 64:6

    A hole in the Head though, yes I think I did have back then
    but it’s much better now thank you.

    • Chase Smith says:

      Well you already know what the Bible says about having friends who don’t love Jehovah. They will just push you further from him. Everything in the Bible is there for a reason. At the end of they day, you associate who you want to with, and I’m glad you don’t see people below you. You OBVIOUSLY don’t know what we teach. I know that u must love my neighbor as the slave says. I don’t discriminate, I don’t hate, ANYONE thats now a JW. I also do not believe everyone has the fate for destruction. But of course, we do know Satan governs this world. And anyone who is not with Jehovah, IS PART OF THIS WORLD. not calling you satanic, for gods sake, but you are worldly, who does not follow or respect Jehovahs will. That is why we don’t associate with WORDLY PEOPLE. As Jehovah mentions, I will hate what he hates, and love what he loves. Why would I love what he hates? Do you see how stupid that sounds? “Hey I am JW and I do not fornicate” “oh let me tell you about last night then I was with this chick…” etc. Why would I even associate with people like that? Only JWs have JWs morals. No other people in the world do. It is what distinguishes us. Our peace, being neutral. It is TRUE hipocracy associating with people who don’t love Jehovah. I would leave any friendship in a heart beat if it means hurting my precious relationship with Jehovah. I guess just for you, it was never like that, and you gave in to the “it’s too strict” religion talk. It’s all there for a reason, remember that. Jehovah will never do something that is it for our benefit. Never has never will. You ignore, you know the consequences. It’s been marked by history. He never lies.

      • messenger says:

        Chase, I agree with much of what you wrote. But, you have not come to realize two very important issues yet. I believe you eventually will, either in this world or the next, because the WT will not be ruling the next world.

        Issue number one: All the rules that are not in the Christian part of the Bible should have never been introduced into a Christian religion, much less made disfellowshipping offenses. Those who introduced those sat themselves in the seat of God, or at least Moses and Christ by judging their Christian brothers according to their standards not God’s. Even some rules that were stated as important in the first century were merely observed as matters of conscience. “Stay away from things sacrificed to idols” the book of Acts.Yet Paul wrote eating meat sacrificed to idols was a matter of conscience after that command was given.

        Issue #2: It makes no sense that a just and loving God would condemn to death groups of people that sincerely love him and his son, believe in and try to follow them, because they have interpreted some scriptures incorrectly, while Christ saves another group, JWs, who also love, believe in, and try to follow him, but who also have interpreted many scriptures incorrectly and taught other people false interpretations just like the group that is destroyed. It not only makes no sense, it contradicts the Bible which compares God to a shadow that doesn’t turn, he is always the same.

        • Chase Smith says:

          No no no, lol don’t look at just one side of the equation. First of all, GOD is no fool. You cannot fool god, those who are his true followers know if they are te doing something incorrect or not. Those who are “christians” think of him as a fool. Thinking they have his approval even though they condemn what the Bible teaches. I have preached to many evangelical and christians, but they know themselves they are living double life’s. There’s no denying it. One friend from school was a hard core Christian, even only listened to Christian music lol but he had a taste for women. He slept with his gfs, and those who weren’t even his gfs. He was perverse, yet he identified himself as a man of god. There’s is no one who can’t trick god. Your saying it as just only looking at a pretty fruit, when inside it’s rotten. God sees inside these people, and he knows they are not truly his worshippers. One can only say they try their best to not sin, but to do sins like these that will cause you to lose your life, and keep doing them, and just thinking if you pray and forgive and forget is the answer, that is completely false. David went under a crazy amount of punishment for what he did, he didn’t just repent and everything was back to normal. Please, no one can fool god for what their actions do. There’s is a consequence to everything. God is the god of love, but also the god of wrath. He will show wrath when it is necessary. Including to these groups of his so called followers. I am proud to say in the JW organization, we don’t promote this behavior. We teach there is severe consequences to sever sins, just as Jesus and Jehovah has shown. These people are given chances, our word is everywhere, they can choose to accept it or deny it. Just as the isrealites and other groups, they paid the price for disobedience and ignorance. Not a cruel act, but a fair act. With warnings. He is a just god, and never acts unjust.

          • Ricardo says:

            Chase, can you stay on topic and address the questions that have been asked? I’m quite interested to see how you answer messenger’s questions, but instead of a direct answer you go off onto a tangent of generalities.

          • messenger says:

            Hi Chase,
            Your comment appears to be directed at Ted, though it is below mine… that’s ok.
            Best wishes!

          • Caroline says:

            Chase, I don’t know how old you are or how long you have been in the “truth” but you really should read the Bible and pay attention to it when it describes Jehovah.

            I will give you just one for instance of what a god of “love” Jehovah is by encouraging you to read 2nd Samuel chapter 24 where Jehovah killed 70,000 innocent Israelites because David did the most awful thing by taking a census.

            I could give you at least 20 more instances just like that of what a god of “love” Jehovah is but just look that chapter up for now and come back and tell us what a great god you worship.

  15. dee2 says:

    Chase,

    “We are refining our rules and beliefs even more to how Jehovah wants. It takes time.”

    WOW! And all this time I thought Jehovah had already revealed the truth/what he wants to the one true religion, Jehovah’s Witnesses……….even the JWs come with a disclaimer: truth today may not be truth tomorrow.
    ________

    “The only purpose we have is to serve Jehovah, when that is gone, what else is there. Work? Get money? And die? Please. If you think we were made to do that…….”

    Religion/the Bible has turned death into something to fear: Death is punishment, everlasting life is a reward. This is simply not true.

    If this were true then death would have to be considered as punishment for the animals as well……….is everlasting life a reward for the animals as well?

    I suppose the curse of consciousness makes human beings feel that they should live forever.

    It is a Watchtower misconception that life can only have purpose if you can live forever.

    The reality is that it is a given that everything in the universe eventually progresses toward a state of entropy, decay. Stars, planets etc eventually die.
    The sun will eventually exhaust its supply of hydrogen fuel one day and the earth will be no more.

    Reproduction is nature’s solution to death – we live on, immortalize and perpetuate ourselves by having children.

    If people were to embrace their mortality and not view death as punishment and everlasting life as a reward, then there would be no more religion because after all, isn’t that what religion is all about?: an elusive quest for everlasting life which is dangled like a carrot before people who are threatened with the fear of destruction/punishment by God or attack by demons if they don’t adopt a belief system/believe in God.

    • dee2 says:

      Chase Smith,

      Living forever on a Paradise earth without the prospect of ever dying certainly sounds enticing doesn’t it?

      But I note that according to WT theology, the 144,000 who go to heaven do NOT have to go through 1000 years of refinement in order to become perfect, they become perfect instantly upon being resurrected. Yet the people who will survive Armageddon and those who will be resurrected on earth will have to go through 1000 years of refinement in order to become perfect.

      Why is this the case? Why the inequity between the two groups?

      • Chase Smith says:

        Also, I get so carried away lol, the annointed ones that die after 1914 don’t wait because there was already a waiting for the recollecting period. The apóstoles and those annointes before 1914 HAD TO WAIT until 1914. The waiting period is over for them, any remaining, that does after 1914, goes straight up.

    • Chase Smith says:

      Yeah. AS OF NOW. Everything decays. But during Adamn and Eve, everything was just perfect. No decay. Now we only know death, because yes, it’s everywhere! But not for long the end is coming soon. Judgment day will too, and those who have stayed in the rightous path with the will of Jehovah will pass to paradise. Everlasting life now seems so unimaginable, because it’s something we fully can’t comprehend. Imagine what it is now, to live a thousand years, our minds can barely grasp that. We are talking about something that has no end, it’s infinite, you can’t judge something u don’t fully understand when all u know is death and sorrow. It’s sad even know u only focus on the talking point of death. This was not meant for us to even witness, death is a punishment. And of course animals die, imagine if animals were immortal and humans were not LOL come on. Who ever even brought that up that animals are being punished by dying please give me a break lol you gave me a good laugh though. Obviously they will share the same faith of the punishment. Jehovah even accepted sacrifices of animals. Now does he now care for them? That’s silly to belive. But for now, it is what it is due to Adam and Eve.

      • outandabout says:

        I can’t wait for Paradise either, Chase. That is, until 7 billion bodies start rotting and there’s not enough crows to go around and then theres the 108 billion people who ever lived on planet earth who get resurrected; Headhunters, Pygmies, Eskimo’s, our cousins the Neanderthals and their cousins the Denisovans (we have their DNA in us) all confused looking for food and shelter after the big ‘A’ has destroyed all the infrastructure.

        Who’s going to live in what house and where. Who gets what. A hierarchical structure will quickly emerge and it won’t be paradise but hell and with a population density over the entire planet suddenly five times greater than what China has today.

        Yep, can’t wait for that. If WT are going to paint a picture of paradise for you, at least it could have been a realistic one. An honest one on which to make a judgment from.

    • Chase Smith says:

      Just imagine a world with no rules. It’s chaos. With people like you, who just sound so hateful and so mad at the world, wow, one can only imagine the chaos. Jehovah gave rules to even PERFECT beings, Angles have rules they must follow, and you say religion is there for what? Lol you sound very confused and not exactly sure what you stand for. I don’t whether your a lost traveler on earth just faithless and angry and just waiting to sit in hospice with no hope, or you just are ignorant and no matter what anyone says, or shows you, will come out one ear. I know I’m wasting my time with even replying to you, because of course, to you “Jehovah doesn’t exist.” That is fine, we all have freedom. And yes, we are refining the truth more and more, once a knife, now a sharper knife. More light is revealed through the Holy Spirit. And remember Jehovah no longer make miracles happen. Like I mentioned before, people who witness Jesus didn’t belive in Jesus. That’s how ignorant people truly are. That’s ok, you choose who you are with. We now have such an amazing understanding of the rich bible texts, it’s absolutely a blessing. It’s also admirable how we never hide that fact that brothers would smoke, celebrate pagan holidays like Christmas, and even used the cross. We didn’t know any better. But Jehovah has showed us through time and time how to truly worship him and be a WITNESS of him. Give me another belief other than our THAT is more accurate to what he teaches in the Bible. Evangelicals belive Jesus is God, although I admire their though expectations and their will to worship Jehovah, they are not even comjng close to what the Bible is actually teaching. We’re everywhere in the world. Only a couple countries where we don’t have brothers, but just how the prophecy states, the true group will be world wide, from corner to corner of earth. Such accuracy and such an organized group, no other group comes close. It’s as plain as day light. I know I’m wasitung my time with you, but ah, I’m just so passionate of what I belive in, the truth, i must share my thoughts, even with the old, sad, mad, ignorant people ^.^ haha good day. PS
      Take a couple xanax

      • dee2 says:

        Chase,

        I note your various responses above however none of them addressed my questions regarding the following, so I will once again ask before addressing any of your responses:

        According to WT theology, the 144,000 who go to heaven do NOT have to go through 1000 years of refinement in order to become perfect, they become perfect instantly upon being resurrected. Yet the people who will survive Armageddon and those who will be resurrected on earth will have to go through 1000 years of refinement in order to become perfect.

        Why is this the case? Why the inequity between the two groups? Shouldn’t the Armageddon survivors and persons resurrected on earth be granted INSTANT perfection just like the 144,000 who go to heaven? Why do they have to wait 1000 years in order to achieve perfection?

        • Chase Smith says:

          Well, this is really easy, and come on, why is this even a “talking point” against what we teach. Give me a break lol. It’s in the name. THEY ARE ANNOITED. Let me ask you, in a job, let’s say your boss. There’s two people you would like to promote. Both are hardworking individuals, but you know One has some flaws that needs to get better at, and One has some flaws as well, but very minute ones and is qualified by what you know of him and you know he will not let you down. Why would I choose the One that has more flaws and is “technically” not “cut out for the job” technically speaking. Why would I Promote this person and not my qualified person. Obviously, Jehovah, when he anoints himself, people to serve with him in his kingdom, he knows these people are ready as soon as they are resurrected to fulfill their duties. He doesn’t think less of anyone, just knows their limits. I’m so glad we have a god like this, because he knows for what ever reason I can’t be anointed, because I, as humble as possible, am just not cut out for the job, and will serve somewhere else. He knows me for my capabilities, and knows I am with those that needs touching up and refinement before reaching to a point where I can serve him how it’s meant to be. These people, the annointed ones, he knows they are ready after death, that’s why no time is wasted, why put them through a 1000 year refinement when they are sharp already. It liter makes no sense. Never judge the judgment of god, creator of all, he knows what he is doing, we are no one to doubt him. I feel like this is such a stupid and small comparison, but it’s like a 5 year old telling Henry ford how to build an engine. You just don’t question it, because you just don’t know what he does. You just go with it, and accept it, because you have strong faith. Everything is just part of a plan and it will all go as he says it will. It has already happened, overwhelming proof is everywhere, even scientists and scholars have proven with historic facts what the Bible says it’s exact, and it will continue to happen as time passes. Never be in doubt.

          • dee2 says:

            Chase Smith,

            How do the 144,000 become instantly perfect when they are resurrected to heaven?

            Is there something which God does to the 144,000 to make them instantly perfect when they are resurrected to heaven, so that they do not need 1000 years of refinement in order to become perfect?

        • messenger says:

          About the number that go heaven, that is debatable, also who the 144,000 represent is.

          But I was thinking about the part of your comment that claims those who go to heaven are perfect.

          What if that only applies to their bodies? What if their thinking is as on Earth and they have to refine that part in heaven?

          • dee2 says:

            If God is omni-everything, why does he need a killing gang of 144,000 anointed ones to run rough-shod over humanity?
            Why does God need a gang of 144,000 anointed ones to help him rule mankind if he is omni-everything?

          • dee2 says:

            “What if that only applies to their bodies? What if their thinking is as on Earth and they have to refine that part in heaven?”
            Will the persons in heaven become eternal robots, zombies with no free will?

            While on earth, according to the WT, evil will still exist during the 1000 year reign so that persons on earth will have to be put to death, and evil will still exist at the end of the 1000 year reign so that there will be the need for a second Armageddon (Revelation 20):

            *** w89 2/15 pp. 14-15 “Justice for All by God’s Appointed Judge”***

            “After being given ample time, maybe even “a hundred years,” to seek God, some will show that they refuse to practice righteousness. Justly they will lose life in that new world, as we can see from Isaiah 65:20: “As for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.” Such ones judged unworthy of life will be in the minority. We have every reason to expect that we and most others will be delighted to learn and to practice righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).”

            *** ip-2 chap. 26 p. 385 “Be Joyful Forever in What I Am Creating”***:

            “What do Jehovah?s words tell us about life in the coming new world? Under God?s Kingdom, every child will have the prospect of a secure future. Never will death claim a God-fearing man in his prime. On the contrary, obedient mankind will be safe, secure, able to enjoy life. What of any who choose to rebel against God? Such ones will lose the privilege of life. Even if the rebellious sinner is “a hundred years of age,”he will die. In such a case, he will be “a mere boy” compared to what he could have become?a man with endless life.”

            *** w00 4/15 p. 16 “The New World – Will You Be There?” ***

            “Those blessed with a lasting place in the new earth will not grow old and inevitably die. Isaiah 65:20 assures us: “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.”

            When this was first fulfilled on Isaiah’s people, it meant that the babes in the land were safe. No enemies were coming in, as the Babylonians once did, to carry off sucklings or to cut down men who were in the prime of their life. (2 Chronicles 36:17, 20) In the coming new world, people will be safe, secure, able to enjoy life. If a person chooses to rebel against God, he will not be allowed to continue living. God will remove him. What if the rebellious sinner is a hundred years old? He will die “as a mere boy” compared to having endless life. (1 Timothy 1:19, 20; 2 Timothy 2:16-19).”

          • dee2 says:

            [ “What if that only applies to their bodies? What if their thinking is as on Earth and they have to refine that part in heaven?” ]

            Will the persons in heaven become eternal robots, zombies with no free will?

            While on earth, according to the WT, evil will still exist during the 1000 year reign so that persons on earth will have to be put to death, and evil will still exist at the end of the 1000 year reign so that there will be the need for a second Armageddon (Revelation 20):

            *** w89 2/15 pp. 14-15 “Justice for All by God’s Appointed Judge” ***

            “After being given ample time, maybe even “a hundred years,” to seek God, some will show that they refuse to practice righteousness. Justly they will lose life in that new world, as we can see from Isaiah 65:20: “As for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.” Such ones judged unworthy of life will be in the minority. We have every reason to expect that we and most others will be delighted to learn and to practice righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).”

            *** ip-2 chap. 26 p. 385 “Be Joyful Forever in What I Am Creating” ***

            “What do Jehovah?s words tell us about life in the coming new world? Under God?s Kingdom, every child will have the prospect of a secure future. Never will death claim a God-fearing man in his prime. On the contrary, obedient mankind will be safe, secure, able to enjoy life. What of any who choose to rebel against God? Such ones will lose the privilege of life. Even if the rebellious sinner is “a hundred years of age,”he will die. In such a case, he will be “a mere boy” compared to what he could have become?a man with endless life.”

            *** w00 4/15 p. 16 “The New World – Will You Be There?” ***

            “Those blessed with a lasting place in the new earth will not grow old and inevitably die. Isaiah 65:20 assures us: “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.”

            When this was first fulfilled on Isaiah’s people, it meant that the babes in the land were safe. No enemies were coming in, as the Babylonians once did, to carry off sucklings or to cut down men who were in the prime of their life. (2 Chronicles 36:17, 20) In the coming new world, people will be safe, secure, able to enjoy life. If a person chooses to rebel against God, he will not be allowed to continue living. God will remove him. What if the rebellious sinner is a hundred years old? He will die “as a mere boy” compared to having endless life. (1 Timothy 1:19, 20; 2 Timothy 2:16-19).”

          • dee2 says:

            *** You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth Pg. 178 ***:

            “Even under these best of circumstances, some will refuse to serve God. As the Scriptures say: ‘Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straight forwardness he will act unjustly’ (Isaiah 26:10). So after being given full opportunity to change their ways and to learn righteousness, such wicked ones will be destroyed. Some will be put to death even before Judgment Day ends”.

            *** You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth Pg. 183 ***:

            Those persons who survive to the end of the millennial Judgment Day face a further test when Satan is loosed to again deceive humanity (Revelation 20). Following this test, God will destroy those persons who turn away from Jehovah and his government.

          • dee2 says:

            Whereas those who are resurrected to heaven can never die since they become imperishable, immortal:

            1 Corinthians 15: 52 – 55 (NIV):

            “……..the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
            “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

          • dee2 says:

            [ “What if that only applies to their bodies? What if their thinking is as on Earth and they have to refine that part in heaven?” ]

            Why would God need 144,000 persons in heaven whose thinking need refinement to rule over persons on earth whose thinking also need refinement?

            Why doesn’t God just rule mankind himself since his thinking is perfect and does not need refinement?

            Psalm 18:30 (NIV):

            “As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.”

            2 Samuel 22:31 (NIV):

            “As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.”

            Isaiah 55:8-9 (NIV):

            ” “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
            “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

          • dee2 says:

            [ “I was thinking about the part of your comment that claims those who go to heaven are perfect.
            What if that only applies to their bodies? What if their thinking is as on Earth and they have to refine that part in heaven?” ]

            Do the Armageddon survivors achieve bodily perfection instantly at the beginning of the 1000 years or does this happen at the end of the 1000 years?

            Do those who are resurrected on earth achieve bodily perfection instantly at the time of their resurrection or does this happen at the end of the 1000 years?

          • dee2 says:

            How does a person on earth achieve bodily perfection so that they will no longer age, get sick and die?

            Is there something which God does to their bodies to achieve this?

  16. twistedsister69 says:

    @Chase Smith

    Chase, no offense, but you are full of sh*t. You sound like a brainwashed little girl.
    BTW, I have a LOT going on in my life besides working & making $$, which is probably all YOU have besides your “Jehovah”.

    • Chase Smith says:

      Yeah I can tell you have a lot going on in your life just by the way you talk lol no where to hide your burdens eh? That’s nice. It’s never to late to repent how ever. It’s so funny how people now don’t belive in Jehovah. But I don’t blame you, nor do I hate you for that. When Jesus was around, people don’t belive he was the Mesiah even after PERFORMINH MIRACLES IN FRONT OF THEIR OWNNNNN EYESSSS. I can’t imagine you that has to actually use faith and the Holy Spirit to believe either lol sad!

      • outandabout says:

        Chase….you talk about the bible as if you were there. Have you heard of the term ‘Chinese whispers’ and the like?

        Ok, you believe everything in the Bible,
        and I’ve asked true believers this before but they never get back to me so we’ll see how True you are; Mark 16, 17-18…..go and see what it says about true believers and then get back to me.

        Remember, the bible is supposed to be true. You can’t just pick out what suits and delete what you don’t fancy. Witnesses say they are the only ones following the Bible. Well…..why don’t they?

        • Chase Smith says:

          Um, lol are u serious? Lol why don’t we follow the Bible? Now your just talking non sense lol not even going to argue with that comment haha you are funny. And yes, your bible text is 100% me, lol I cure the sick in “gods” name lol. Obviously, that text is referring to those who practice those arts and take credit with saying it’s Jehovahs power behind it. Those people are fuled by Satan and his demons, they have power as well. That’s the warning it gives. Lol has nothing to do with the organization. If anything, we warn of this, complete opposite of saying that we do this. And not cherry picking, im just schooling on what people are “doubting” the org and Jehovah himself about.

          • outandabout says:

            You love to state what the bible ‘clearly’ says, Chase…..except when something it says doesn’t match your story. Notice that? I have a family bible dated 1902. It clearly states that true believers will be saved and also, if they take poison it won’t hurt them. Any statement by Christendom or whoever which tries to minimize or explain that statement away is lying to themselves and everbody to cover up an obvious and serious flaw in the fairy tale.

            Let me ask you something else; if you had an abusive husband who was so jealous he threatened to kill you if you so much as looked at another man, would you stay in that relationship?

            What do you and other Witnesses who are looking at all the terrible things going on in the world as proof you’re right, think of a situation where an estranged husband comes back and murders his wife?

            What message do you think that man was delivering to his wife?

            I await your reply.

      • Caroline says:

        https://youtu.be/zk5Mat_7J0w

        Chase, if you are not afraid to watch that video that I have pasted here, please watch it and tell me what you think about Jehovah, the god of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

        Don’t be afraid to watch it. Watchtower does not want you to watch it, just saying.

        • Caroline says:

          Chase, if you don’t believe what that video is saying about Jehovah, then you need to go to the index of your large print New World Translation under Jehovah and read it and take notes.

          • outandabout says:

            Honestly, Caroline…..I suspect Chase, if she’s real at all, has stopped taking her lithium and is having a high old time at the moment being all messed up on The Lord. She’s a four percent-er.

        • Chase Smith says:

          This video is absolutely out of context lol I don’t even have to try and do research on it. Absolutely hilarious lol thanks for the laugh how ever. I was having a rough day with heavy traffic but saw this and cheered me up haha lol

          • Chase Smith says:

            And btw lol I’m not afraid to read anything or see anything. My faith is unbreakable, like Hitler and Nazi germany trying to get me to quit my faith but me die in a gas chamber unbreakable. Nothing will ever make me doubt my creator and my love for him. I love him so much. I speak with him everyday. And imhe always answers to me. I can’t even count his blessings. Somethings in my life should’ve never happened, like at all, but I’m only here saying this because of him. He saved my life. I am for ever in debt with him. I will protect his name, and worship him with all my heart. I have never been more happier in my life. I see him as a unselfish friend, who gives me more than I give him 🙁 I wish I can give him more, he rewards me with so much. That’s just the type of god he is, Jesus taught it, and it’s so true. I love him with all my heart. So LOL I’m not afraid of ANYTHING. I have him behind me. With him behind me, nothing will phase me, and I will not succumb to anyone or anything. Specially not to a lady in a video who doesn’t know what she’s talking about haha ^.^ people really are just silly. Someone thinks my faith is going to be changed by a power point. Please.

  17. twistedsister69 says:

    Thank God for all the trump protesters around the world. They are teaching us ALL an important lesson:
    The answer to TYRANNY is NOISE.
    MAKE LOTS AND LOTS OF NOISE.

  18. peggy says:

    https://archive.org/details/Mea.Maxima.Culpa.Silence.in.the.House.of.God.720p
    Has anyone seen this HBO documentry? I watched it yesterday and was outraged. My point with JW’s is similar with child abuse and the desire to cover it up. It was never about the victims.

  19. Imgonaburn says:

    According to my JW husband, who attended the final day of CO visit this afternoon the whole shunning thing was raised again today. The CO said that if anyone who has fallen away but does things that if they were still attending meetings would get them dfd they should be shunned.
    He came back with the message that my daughter doesn’t want anything to do with me from now on unless I return to Jehovah. No texting, calling or meeting up. I’m not allowed to see my new grandchild and they won’t allow my husband to bring the baby to see me.
    I had a Xmas tree which I offered to not put up if it was going to cause problems. My daughter said she didn’t want to tell me what I can and can’t do so just said if I put a tree up they’ll stay away over Xmas period. It seems this was some sort of sick test and that hearing the CO reiterate the shunning rules has motivated them to come to a firm decision to shun me.
    My husband says that whilst their decision hurts him he has to support it as it’s up to them. Such foolishness is beyond me!! I am not disfellowshipped.

    • Rodger Goode says:

      The CO is a Company Man – view him as such. A CO career path is limited in my humble opinion – let him have his moment in time – hopefully your husband will come to his God given senses – the future will tell an entirely different story.

    • messenger says:

      Unfortunately they brought that point out at the last convention. Evidently WT is having their COs reiterate it, or that particular CO just decided to repeat the point. As you said, if someone is inactive, and they are doing things that could result in disfellowshipping they should be shunned according to WT. I wouldn’t follow the directive myself. She’s probably shunning because of the tree. Maybe you can speak to her again, and when she’s around you can accommodate her beliefs.

  20. outandabout says:

    I’ve only watched the first video and two things stick in my mind.

    The first is the that Yoga is banned because your mind goes blank and demons might get in. I didn’t know they thought that! That just takes the biscuit that does….and these people knock on doors urging people to wake up??????

    Who let the lunatics out.

    The second is the observation that Anglicanism is a ‘cake based religion’. It is, and this is what you end up with when you remove the bible from the bible.

    You remove anything or as much as you can so that the belief is not imposing too much undue influence on peoples lives that’s likely to cause… let’s see….. broken families, unnecessary deaths, depression, suicide, misogyny, child abuse, abuse of power, guilt, fear…..where do I stop?

    In order for religion to be palatable in a modern society it’s content needs to be deleted to the point where all that’s left is a charitable social club. Put the bible back in the bible and you end up with something like Islam and communism, which as we all know, does not produce a healthy society.

    • twistedsister69 says:

      ha ha ha
      A blank mind leads to demon possession. By that definition, all JWs are demon-possessed. 😀
      They said the same thing about martial arts, that it’s connected to Eastern mysticism, therefore “spiritism”/demonism. BULL. I studied several forms of martial arts/self-defense, and NEVER was taught, or participated in, any “mystical” mumbo-jumbo. Wanna know what I think? I think JWs and their Governing Buddies are just too f***ing lazy to even attempt anything like that, so they BAN it under the guise of, “it’s unscriptural”. ha ha ha What a joke! Just like the Pharisees who ‘did not want to enter the kingdom of God, but did their utmost to prevent others from doing so’. Then you hear things like, “Oh, if I wasn’t a jehovahs witness, I would be a racing-car driver. If I wasn’t a jehovahs witness, I would be flying helicopters. If I wasn’t a jehovahs witness, I would go ahead and jump out of an airplane or go bungee-jumping.” BULLSH*T

      • twistedsister69 says:

        PS As long as I’m on the subject, for anyone who’s interested in learning a few quick, simple self-defense skills in this f’d-up world, I recommend Israeli Krav Maga.
        I’ve recently started doing Tai Chi (off YouTube lol). It’s a great low-impact workout that helps posture, breathing, coordination, etc. Very calming.

        • outandabout says:

          You’re right of course, T.S., all JW’s must then be demon possessed. How blank does a mind have to get to become indoctrinated with utter rubbish….. rubbish that they would simply not believe and would scoff at in their normal state of mind.

          And Dee, thanks for that. Considering that Jesus’s life management skills were seriously flawed to the point of allowing himself to be crucified when his purpose for actually being here was to show us the way, I’ll take everything he said with a pinch of salt. And he didn’t invent ‘being good’. We had already learnt all that well before he arrived to state the obvious.

          The same goes for most of the Ten Commandments. There’s no way we would have progressed to where we were at the time of Moses without learning a thing or two just by sheer experience and noticing what worked and what didn’t. We had the same brains then as we do now, only our frame of reference is now much bigger than the World itself compared to back then. We were also very superstitious because of that ignorance. What we did know is that something very big and very powerful existed, but that power was only Nature doing it’s thing.

          Schizophrenia would have existed back then. If somebody today came down from a mountain, said he’d been talking with God and you should follow him, men in white coats would be there in a flash to cart the poor guy away.

          We’ve been sold a pup.

          • twistedsister69 says:

            ha ha ha
            How true. Ever notice how the major “prophets” of most religions heard the “word of God” when they were all alone up in a mountain, in the middle of a forest, or in a cave somewhere? LOL
            And the point about “experience” and “knowing what worked and what didn’t” – absolutely. Proponents of major religions point to the 10 commandments or whatever, as the basis of civilization. Like otherwise, everyone would be murdering each other in the streets and robbing each other blind as a way of life. It’s a no-brainer. A society could not function, or even come into being, with that kind of behavior. Even the most far-flung jungle tribes abide by these laws, and they’ve never heard of the Bible, the 10 Commandments, or any other “holy writings” that we’re familiar with. I laugh when I picture a slightly different version of the Moses story: Moses comes back down the mountain with the tablets in his arms. He bellows out to the Hebrews, “Do not murder. Do not steal. Respect your parents.” The Hebrews reply, “You went all the way up a @#$%& mountain to tell us THAT???!!! What an a**hole!”

          • dee2 says:

            TwistedSis:

            “Ever notice how the major “prophets” of most religions heard the “word of God” when they were all alone up in a mountain, in the middle of a forest, or in a cave somewhere?”
            __

            A curious case is the account of Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus:

            According to Acts chap 22 – only Paul heard Jesus’ voice. However, according to Acts chap 9 Paul’s companions also heard Jesus’ voice.

            Then there is:

            – Eli and Samuel (1 Samuel 3):
            Eli did not hear when God called Samuel, only Samuel did – maybe their rooms were rather far from each other or God didn’t want to wake Eli up.

            – The book of Acts is replete with stories of people who prayed until they fell into a trance – an altered state of consciousness – and then they alone heard a voice speaking to them:

            Acts 9:10-11

            Acts 10:3-6

            Acts 10:9-23:

            Acts 11:4-18

            Acts 22:17-21

      • outandabout says:

        Now come on T.S……the world is not f….d up. Newspapers do not make their money on accounts of the enormous charity that exists in the average person. Nice, but oh so boring! Sensationalism sells. Just ask the WT.

        Witnesses like to point out the terrible state of the world but if it was as bad as they are forced to believe , there is no way they would risk going door to door. Sure, Witnesses have copped abuse on doorsteps. That’s only natural considering that they’re tying to sell what the average person can see as balderdash. I’ll guarantee the average witness gets a polite ‘thank you but no thank you’ from what is supposed to be a selfish, unruly, haughty, violent, unloving public. But do you think they would dare join the dots?

        Here’s a little bit of perspective for you; We’re led to believe the world is going to hell in a handcart, what with all these wars. Wars are killing about 1.3 million people per year which is the same amount as there are killed on the roads worldwide. Are we going to start walking now?

        Sixty million people died in WWII. Humanity can take a huge blow, get up, dust itself off and rebuild. It’s all a matter of will.

        The worlds deadliest earthquake occurred in China in 1556 which saw 830,000 people killed.

        The world has always been dangerous and will continue that way, on the natural side anyway. We will continue to strive to refine society and a good sign is the world becoming more democratic, and democracies are far less likely to go to war with each other.

        My thoughts. Cheers.

        P.S. don’t listen to ‘the twisted scriptures of the twisted sisters’. XX

        • twistedsister69 says:

          OK, well, true, but PARTS of the world are pretty f’d-up. That’s why it’s always good to know how to take of yourself (and others, if necessary), with basic skills like Self-Protection and Emergency First Aid. I, for one, do not believe the twisted sisters down in Hollywood who try to pummel into my mind images of a man in a blue suit and red cape, or some millionaire-weirdo dressed like a bat driving a black rocket-car, or a pair of black-guy/white-guy “supercop” buddies coming to my rescue just in the nick of time. These are all fantasies.

          • outandabout says:

            Yes TS, I have noticed how ‘prophets’ have their visions in secret. Take the Mormons for example; they have some gold tablets or some such and it’s forbidden to look at them? So it’s un-provable in that respect and a person just has to ‘have faith’ and go along with the delusion. The Jehovah Witnesses have their invisible Jesus running around and doing naf all as well and which also cannot be proven but common sense say’s it’s rubbish. ‘Just shut up, if you don’t believe it you’re obviously not one of us and it’s death for you at Armageddon’.

            As for the world being messy in places – absolutely, and that’s partly because we have been in a recession for years and a lot of people have been marginalized and are fed up and that’s where Brexit and Trump come from. We’re lucky…..last time we had a recession this big, we had a world war. Fingers crossed.

            Lets mention ‘the good old days’ and how things have got ‘so much worse’. How would anybody like to be living in the 11th century? Those castles and walls weren’t built for tourists to gawk at today. The world was a dangerous place outside of those walls. Wandering off into the fairy tale forest to pick fairy tale flowers was just a fairy tale. No walls around towns today. Healthcare, education, social services, freedom, etc, etc. We fly from country to country and have a high old time. We’re living the dream and things have never been this good.

            We’re probably coming to the end of a dream run. Financial constraints may mean we go back to living with three generations under one roof. I would say THAT is the norm as opposed to the way we live now. Have we been living in a abnormally prosperous and comparatively peaceful time and are about to return to normal? Is that returning to normal being used as a ‘sign’ that the Big ‘A’ is upon us? You bet.

            And just look at history….. ever since Christ we’ve had a near constant stream of ‘yep, yep, this is definitely it this time! Just look around you!, everything corresponds exactly with what the bible says will happen. You have to be blind not to see it!’.

            They all ended in failure and disappointment. Hundreds of them and every one of them totally believed in.

            My thoughts.

          • dee2 says:

            TwistedS,

            “Ever notice how the major “prophets” of most religions heard the “word of God” when they were all alone up in a mountain, in the middle of a forest, or in a cave somewhere?”
            ___

            A curious case is the account of Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus:

            According to Acts chap 22 – only Paul heard Jesus’ voice. However, according to Acts chap 9 Paul’s companions also heard Jesus’ voice.

            Then there is:

            – Eli and Samuel (1 Samuel 3):
            Eli did not hear when God called Samuel, only Samuel did – maybe their rooms were rather far from each other or God didn’t want to wake Eli up.

            – The book of Acts is replete with stories of people who prayed until they fell into a trance – an altered state of consciousness – and then they alone heard a voice speaking to them:

            Acts 9:10-11

            Acts 10:3-6

            Acts 10:9-23:

            Acts 11:4-18

            Acts 22:17-21

          • dee2 says:

            TwistedSis,

            Your version of the Moses-Ten Commandments story………LOL……maybe this is the real story behind Moses’ shattering of the first copy of the 10 Commandments – he felt like such a fool: God had to dictate common sense commandments to him yet the people had already figured all of this out on their own……….LOL.

    • dee2 says:

      Outandabout,

      “Yoga is banned because your mind goes blank and demons might get in. I didn’t know they thought that!”

      That teaching is based on Jesus’ words at Matthew 12:43 – 45:

      ” “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.” ”

      One can now understand the JW obsession and preoccupation with demons – Jesus Christ himself said demons exist and can get inside of a person’s brain.

      How do demons get inside a person’s brain or body? Can someone please explain to me how this happens?

      Is there an objective way to test for or distinguish between discarnate beings (demons) and the following possibilities?:

      – some form of dissociation (dissociation/dissociative disorder)

      – multiple personalities (multiple personality disorder)

      – a fugue state

      – uncontrolled emotional reactions

      – epilepsy

      – seizure-like responses

      – panic-like responses

      – psychosis (a spectrum disorder)

      – schizophrenia (a spectrum disorder)

      – the unconscious dynamics of the brain;
      altered/trance-like state of consciousness experiences arising from deep/intense/strong contemplative meditation or other intensive spiritual practices like deep/intense/strong praying and fasting, in which the rational left brain is suppressed and quieted and the perceptive faculties of the intuitive right brain are awakened, unleashing thoughts, images, impressions, visions, voices, words, from the depths of the subconscious in the process. These thoughts, impressions, images, visions, voices, words etc emerge from the deep, intuitive levels of the right brain as the subconscious mind begins to “speak” to a person who is in an altered/trance-like state of consciousness.

      etc?

      • dee2 says:

        Yoga & demons:

        So Jesus warned:

        Matthew 12:43 – 45:
        ” “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.” ”

        But then God cleansed the heavens to protect his spiritual family by sending the demons down to the earth (Revelation 12:7-12). Now his physical family has to fight them.

        It was important for God to get rid of these pesky demons from heaven but then he gave them to mankind to deal with and we now have to fight them. WT#!

        Maybe Jesus needs to have a word with God about this.

  21. GEM says:

    Moving stories..invaluable material Debbie but is the F word necessary?

    More Victoria Wood and less Freddie Starr, please!

  22. ruthlee says:

    Listening to the testimony of these survivors , it makes you realise it is such a dirty religion and was never inspired by god. All that pretense of keeping the organisation clean comes full circle and we see it is a farce. The rarefied atmosphere of Brooklyn now warwick means the old duffers are truly clueless about spiritual matters and how people are treated. Say they had been overseers of jesus little sheep then by the way they policed things they did a poor job. The word of god has been made invalid just by these few testimonies and this phoney religion. Ms White’s humour makes light relief in an otherwise truly sad testimony of such abused people. Thank you for this post. We have all got a story to tell and as I say Brick by brick by brick the wrecking ball will knock that tower down.Ruthlee

  23. Whip It says:

    The most mental issues i have seen are in the ORG, so much depression, people who are sick, blind freddie can see the problems, i remember an elders wife saying to me that she was going to go home to self medicate & go into oblivion,

    • outandabout says:

      so she’s going home to enter onto an altered state of mind and risk the demons pouring in? Oh, the blindness to the hypocrisy!

  24. Ricardo says:

    I don’t think I could stand sitting at the back of the hall for six years waiting to be reinstated. I would rather go to another part of the country, or another country, where noone knows me, pretend to be interested when a witness called, study and get baptized again. It would only take 1 year, maybe less.

  25. S cyr says:

    By knowledge i would not take blood even if God had not commanded it. It is dangerous. .it is unhealthy.
    And my
    So called friends lyingly saying all sorts of things .(character assassination) things about me..and dont listen to me..think im lying..
    Thus it is..thus it was..
    Disfellowshiped..yes..
    Woe for the earth and the sea for the devil has come down to you having great anger.
    Well what is he doing?
    Could it be to tempt Christlike ones?
    I still follow the word of God.regardless. ..i find it at jw.org.
    And yes some have to repent
    and make amends to me for their worldly ways of dealing with me
    ..but my relationship is with
    my heavenly Father..
    the one Jesus Christ was praying to.
    I have an awesome relationship with our father in the heavens and NOTHING CAN SEPARATE ME FROM THE LOVE OF ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF ALMIGHTY GOD, CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD WHO DIED WHILE TELLING THE TRUTH SO THAT WE COULD KNOW THE WAY TO LIVE..
    God help us all..
    “Feed my sheep..feed my little lambs”
    Pray continuously
    Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is near.
    Though 10.000 fall at your very side.
    Yes elders. Wives. Husbands. Kids. Pioneers.we cant trust our own companion..
    We cant trust anyone.
    Not even our own selves to direct our own steps..
    This world is so horrible
    .it is.
    Murderers
    They killed my loved ones.
    They were looking for me i had to hide.
    They murdered me…
    They abandoned me..but Christ is my savior..
    And they murdered him too.
    Yet he made me once..he can easily make me again.. We are in good hands
    We can sleep in peace knowing he will take care of us

  26. S cyr says:

    My husband
    ..raised in the truth his daddy was a fine elder hus brother too. But he was Disfellowshiped.
    .he later on
    Killed a Woman
    Premeditated.
    7 years he got.
    My neighbor was murdered by a brother.
    Premeditated also..he got 11 years
    My friends wife was murdered by an inactuve brother..he got life in prison.
    And there is more…
    Yet…have no fear.
    ..there are millions of loyal ones
    who truely LOVE their neighbors and are feeding those little lambs.

  27. S cyr says:

    My husband
    ..raised in the truth his daddy was a fine elder hus brother too. But he was Disfellowshiped.
    .he later on
    Killed a Woman
    Premeditated.
    7 years he got.
    My neighbor was murdered by a brother.
    Premeditated also..he got 11 years
    My friends wife was murdered by an inactuve brother..he got life in prison.
    And there is more…
    Yet…have no fear.
    ..there are millions of loyal ones
    who truely LOVE their neighbors and are feeding those little lambs.

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