JW.org releases new homophobic video “Remember the Wife of Lot”
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The Jehovah’s Witness religion has long been known for its vocal disapproval of the LGBT community. On a doctrinal level it teaches that any practicing homosexuals are sinful and deserve to die, and that very soon God will kill any such person at the upcoming battle of Armageddon.

On an everyday level, whilst it does not press for government action or laws against the LGBT community due to a strict doctrine of total political disconnection, it does directly persecute it’s own members who are LGBT by requiring them to remain celibate for life. Should any of them refuse to do so, the religion demands that they be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends, with the additional threat of shunning for any family or friends who refuse to comply.

So a JW born into the religion and baptised as a young child, which is increasingly the case, and who grows up to discover they are gay, will be faced with a choice: deny their sexuality forever or lose everyone they have ever known.

In recent years Watchtower, the organisation that controls the Witness religion, has released a large number of videos that make strong anti-LGBT statements, and this year is no exception. However, it seems that the rhetoric is on this topic escalating to a worrying degree, as Witnesses are now being instructed to become directly confrontational when encountering gays, lesbians, or others who do not fit Watchtower’s narrow view of approved sexual identities.

One such example of the escalation in rhetoric is the new Watchtower produced video drama, “Remember the Wife of Lot.”

Remember the Wife of Lot.

This will not end well.

 

The official webpage of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, JW.org, has just released a series of videos that will play at the religions upcoming series of 2017 worldwide conventions. One of the videos is a three part drama entitled “Remember the Wife of Lot.” It can be viewed here.

Intended to be a modern day parallel to the Biblical tale of Lot in the last days of Sodom and Gomorrah, Watchtower states on JW.org;

The warning Jesus gave nearly 2,000 years ago is more important than ever. See how Brian and Gloria learn to protect their family from the dangers Jesus warned about.

One of those dangers is, of course, the insidious and sinful LGBT community.

There are two scenes in which Watchtower’s message on homosexuality is showcased, but one of them really stood out to me as requiring more refutation than usual. Not just because of the nature of the teachings themselves; by this point I’m very familiar with the anti-LGBT message Watchtower promotes and sadly it no longer shocks me quite the way it would someone encountering JW.org for the first time. Rather it was the sheer bad manners the Witness characters displayed in the sequence that dropped my jaw.

Let’s set the scene.

Brian and Gloria are two Witness parents, whose daughter has invited some of her workmates back for a meal. One of these workmates is a girl called Tess. During the mealtime conversation, it emerges that Tess is considered to be one of the top interns at the company. The JW wife, Gloria, tells Tess that her parents must be very proud, and Tess replies:

“My Moms are both really proud of me. I was raised by two wonderful women.”

And thus begins one of the most excruciating, clumsy and crass examples of homophobic propaganda in recent Witness history.

The dinner party from Hell

Behold the official Watchtower-endorsed “Glare of Disapproval” to be deployed when encountering a same-sex family.

What happens when Tess drops this “bombshell?”

Remember, the Witness characters have been taught that homosexuality is a grave sin worthy of death at Jehovah’s God’s hands when he brings a worldwide Armageddon, which Witnesses believe to be coming soon. Any baptised Witness who is unrepentantly romancing the same-sex is required to be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends.

Make no mistake, in the eyes of the Witness characters in this scene, Tess’ parents are doing something revolting and deserve to die unless they split up, become Witnesses and either marry men or remain celibate.

However, given the fact that Tess is not a Witness and is simply responding to a passing question, it seems like the polite thing to do would be to simply move on and continue the conversation about the internship. Yet instead the Witness characters act like she’s just slapped them all in the face and spat on the table. Their jaws drop, they stammer, and the father Brian gives Tess a stern stare of anger and disgust.

Next, in a display of what I can only describe as social incompetence of the worst order, the Witness character Gloria learns forward with a concerned expression and replies in a horrified tone that she’s just found her that her assistant at work is gay.

Seriously. This is what she does. Watch the video.

Gloria’s tone of voice and expression make it sound like she’s telling everyone that her assistant is a rapist, or has highly contagious mutant space-rabies, or just started their very own Adolf Hitler fan club.

Now, quite why she would say that to a person whose has just casually mentioned they have same sex parents, and in that tone of voice, I have no idea. She’s either deliberately being atrociously rude, or has absolutely no grasp of appropriate social interaction, or perhaps suffers from some unholy and catastrophic mix of the two.

Quite rightly, Tess demands to know what’s wrong with a same sex couple, since its clear her parents are being directly insulted. Incredibly, the video actually presents Tess as being the inconsiderate, rude one for daring to speak of and defend her parents in front of the JW family. Apparently, when asked about her parents, she should have either denied the existence of her loving mothers, or edited their genders so as to coddle the fragile sensitivities of the Witnesses.

The scene continues, with another guest joining the pushback against the JW’s and arguing in support of same sex relationships. Since this is a Watchtower video, the pushback doesn’t go into very much detail, as Watchtower has never been one to give a fair hearing the opposite side of the argument. However, even by the standards of the scene itself, it’s actually the immoral and wicked people of “Satan’s world” who end up coming across as the reasonable ones, and the righteous JW “heroes” who end up looking like they possess all the tact and social grace of a pack of flatulent, drunken hyenas.

For example: at one point Gloria appears to concede that maybe gays and lesbians are born that way, but Brian quickly intervenes and squashes this idea. He gives a lecture about everyone having free will, and outlines his sales pitch for Watchtower’s interpretation of the Bible, which condemns the woman’s parents loving relationship as harmful. Incredibly, he also states that Witnesses “don’t push their religion down anyone’s throat,” despite the fact that he and Gloria have just turned a passing mention of same sex parentage into a lengthly and toe-curling excuse to harangue and chastise the child of those parents!

What if the tables were turned?

That face you make when an off the cuff mention of your parents results in a tsunami of judgemental religious sermonising heading your way.

Let’s switch this around.

Let’s say that Tess had Jehovah’s Witness parents, and that Brian and Gloria are non-Witnesses.

During the meal, it casually comes up in passing that Tess’s parents are Witnesses. Brian and Gloria react in shock, pulling faces of disgust, and then Gloria replies in horrified tones that she recently found out that her assistant is a Witness. When the other guests point out how rude Brian and Gloria are being, the couple do not apologise but rather they double downlambasting Tess about how sinful her Witness parents are, and deliver a patronising sermon to try to push their own beliefs.

Can you imagine how rude that would be?

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness reading this, I’m sure you understand how hurt and upset that child of Witness parents would feel. Surely now you can understand how hurt and upset the child of a same sex couple would feel if treated in like manner? Even if you fully subscribe to Watchtower’s teachings on homosexuality, you must surely admit that the way the Witness characters acted in this scene is incredibly obnoxious and rude. 

Yet this is clearly the way that the Governing Body wants you to treat anyone who casually mentions their sexuality or that of their loving parents. 

How do you feel about that?

Why does JW.org create these videos?

In the 2016 cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted

If you are not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you may simply pass this video off as a weird bit of badly acted, poorly written, socially backward storytelling, but I’d urge you to understand the following point:

These videos are not simply intended to be entertainment for Jehovah’s Witnesses. These videos are directly intended to be training for all Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. 

This video is directly intended to demonstrate to Witnesses how to handle a situation where a person casually mentions that they have two fathers, or two mothers. Witnesses worldwide are now expected to hassle, harass, and lecture them. Letting the comment simply go unmentioned is not on the list of options presented here, and every Witness watching the video will understand this.

If you think we’re exaggerating, in 2016 JW.org brought out a CGI children’s cartoon/instructional video explicitly encouraging young Witness children to lecture the young children of same-sex couples about the sinful nature of their parent’s relationship and the need to become Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to avoid death and gain paradise.

The video quite rightly drew worldwide condemnation, not only due to the homophobic nature of the message, but also due to the incredibly crass way it encouraged Witness children to harass their classmates and other non-witnesses in such a rude, unpleasant manner. Sadly it appears that nothing has changed at JW.org, if this latest video is anything to go by.

Now, it has to be said than many actual Witnesses will probably be far too polite to actually take the advice given here (and others might be reluctant to follow this advice from a sheer sense of social self preservation if nothing else) but nonetheless it illustrates how the leadership of Watchtower views the LGBT community and how it expects its followers to behave towards them.

Quite frankly, setting all issues of theology and the human rights of the LGBT community to one side, it appears that the leadership and scriptwriting teams at JW.org are in desperate need of a strong lesson in manners.

For a more detailed examination of the homophobia on display in “Remember the Wife of Lot,” check out the following videos and articles from JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans.

Article in the Huffington Post on the homophobic aspects of Remember the Wife of Lot

You can also watch a more detailed breakdown of the wider aspects of cult manipulation and abusive doctrine in Remember the Wife of Lot as part of this video from Lloyd Evans. The link will take you to the part of the video where the drama is discussed.

Follow me on twitter @covertfade

Follow Lloyd Evans on twitter @cedarsjwsurvey

Follow JWSurvey on twitter @jwsurveyorg

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1,052 Responses to JW.org releases new homophobic video “Remember the Wife of Lot”

  1. outandabout says:

    Thanks for your earlier reply, messenger, and I do actually understand where you’re coming from, given your beliefs.
    However, you say folk having similar religious experiences points to the existence of God. Well if that’s true, those folk being abducted by aliens and having similar experiences must surely point to the existence of aliens, then. And not only that, these abductions are happening right here and now. We can interview them. We can’t interview the Apostles. How come these abductions are all so similar and not only that, why did they only start occurring only once the existence of aliens entered our Psyche? Are alien abductions yet another plot by Satan to lure people away from God?

    You say that the fact that millions of people believe in God’s existence and that in itself is proof of something. Okay, but how about the countless other billions of people who once lived and thought their particular god existed and they lived and died by them? Have you ever noticed that once Man started travelling the globe he encountered civilizations that pretty much all had a powerful, fearful god who created and controlled this that and the other and must be obeyed at all times and who also had a very touchy temperament. Sound familiar? If you need proof of Mans inbuilt need to explain his existence, there it is and it all starts by using what he see’s around him, and what he see’s is nature at work…. it’s very big, very powerful, can’t be seen, is unexplainable and can have power over his life. THAT’S the common thread with god’s, messenger. Each and every one of them, including yours. We are perfectly capable of creating our own truth to fit what we believe and we do it all the time, not only in religious circles. But take the tribesman who dies after the Bone is pointed at him by the Witch Doctor. He dies only because he believes he will. The power of our own minds at work.

    How about the Egyptian hieroglyphs which tell of their gods and those hieroglyphs remain the same as when they were first written and millions of people believed in them. Those hieroglyphs should contain ‘the truth’, given they are ‘written down’ and are unadulterated. But we scoff at the hundreds of gods that have come and gone, right? Why? Working out the answer to that is the way to the truth. Avoiding it keeps a person in their cage, which is exactly where religion wants them.

    • messenger says:

      outandabout

      Read Daniel. Unless his writings were all written after his prophecies then his writings provide evidence that prove he had multiple supernatural experiences with a being or beings that can see into the future. There are many experiences of Jews and Christians like that. Some are written in the Bible for others to learn from. I’m not aware of any verifiable supernatural experiences from people in other religions or alien abductions that are verifiable. I’m not claiming those don’t happen, I’m just saying I have no experience with those or know of any proof, though there may be.

      Also, because of what I was taught I didn’t believe Christians had such experiences until several happened to me. I know I cannot see a detailed future myself, so that was the most convincing factor to me. Seeing something floating in the air above me was also quite convincing. I know I cannot see a detailed feature myself so that alone convinced me. The ability to see the future accurately is also the most convincing factor to me that the Bible writers were inspired. The fact that a lot of different writings were gathered together from authors that saw the future is also a convincing factor to me. I don’t know of another book that can make that claim. Because that book is Christian, because I am Christian and had similar experiences, and because the book claims Christians would have similar experiences I accept that some other Christians who claim such are having those experiences today.(Joel 2:28 & Acts 2:17)

      As far as others who claim supernatural experiences that are not godly contacts, I don’t know. I’ve heard about some of those even from friends who are JWs. Dishes flying around in the air and such. But I don’t know about those, just as it’s usually impossible to confirm what another Christian claims. Fortunately we have the Bible that offers SOME verifiable evidence. Just like I don’t know about the aliens I can only speak to the accuracy of my own experience and Bible experience that provide some verifiable evidence. Maybe people are being contacted in different ways.

      People here laughed when I mentioned other dimensions. Strange! It seems they’d have the sense to realize that’s what the Bible claims heaven is (dimensions we don’t exist in and can’t measure). Yet those folks studied about heaven for years while they were JWs. The fact JWs cannot put that together is because of the way WT teaches and the resulting peer pressure because of that teaching. JWs feel if Bethel didn’t say it (the exact words) then you’d better not mention it. It/s a joke! Bethel must say the Bible’s heaven is multidimensional, and includes more than four dimensions before a JW is not afraid to say that. From what I’ve read science now agrees with that conception of reality.

      • outandabout says:

        Messenger….I think you’ll find the reaction from ex-JW’s regarding your mention of other dimensions is more to do with you using the possibility of other dimensions as a bolt hole when the questions get too tough. That’s perfectly understandable of you because this is how belief systems all operate, – everything must be misty, hazy, open to interpretation and completely un-provable, otherwise it just wouldn’t survive.
        I mean, this book of Daniel, which basically is another story about gods greatness and wrath and those geezers getting thrown into a furnace and just walking out…..give us a break! If these stories weren’t actually written down, would you still believe them? What is the difference between that story and the thousands of other stories, just as ridiculous, and held as truth by various peoples around the globe since forever? Are they all untrue just because they weren’t written down at the time? Well, they’re all written down now, so read away. Read and believe.
        It really surprises me that you admit the book of Daniel could have been written after his prophesies, messenger. Just what and where is this proof and truth you base your life on, then. It’s all up in the air, so why should it have any more credibility than the beliefs of Sioux or the head hunters of New Guinea?
        It also surprises me that you can’t join the dots on why Man invents Gods which are all coincidentally and conveniently invisible, all powerful, control everything, are unpredictable and capable of smiting people on a whim and must be appeased at all times. Nobody ever see’s these god’s, only special favored ones with an agenda. Realizing that all peoples of all continents have all come up with god’s shows us we all react predictably in a given situation, i.e., ‘what’s it all about, why are we here’.
        This brings an obvious conclusion, one you understandably don’t wish to reach. I’m holding the cage door open for you, messenger. Do you want to remain afraid or do you want to allow your stymied intellect to expand to where it should be, or are you going to allow religion to stay tapped into that primitive part of your brain….. like a leech sucking the juices out of your remaining life.

        • messenger says:

          Outandabout

          You miss a lot of points by concentrating on parts of a story, such as Daniel, or sometimes even parts of a commenters comment that does not have anything to do with the issue under consideration. For instance, you write about people walking around in a furnace. Either you’re not familiar with Daniel, or you are side-stepping the issue of our discussion. I don’t know which. I could point out the difference between Daniel’s writings and those of some American Indian tribe, but it would be more beneficial for you and other readers to read Daniel’s book yourselves. It speaks of a lot more than people walking around in a furnace.

          There are a lot of JWs here that are familiar with its content. Elders could never have gotten promoted that far without knowing the reason why I referred to it. That’s why I know a comment I glanced at by Ted is disingenuous. And because of that I’m not going to spell everything out. I’m not here to argue points to people it makes no sense to argue those with. And as for the ignorant searching, good, let those start with the Bible. The reason I comment on some commenters assertions about scripture is because those are so ridiculous and misleading their thoughts could be detrimental to the uninformed readers.

          As far as other dimensions, what do you think the Bible is speaking of? Do you think the Bible is only discussing invisible beings that we not only cannot see but also cannot feel as existing only in those dimension we do? If that were the case those writers would not have had a name (heaven) for the place those beings live in. Your claim that I’m bringing up new points like that which are not included in scripture sounds somewhat disingenuous also. That appears to be a tactic used to cast doubt on my comments.

        • messenger says:

          outandabout

          {It really surprises me that you admit the book of Daniel could have been written after his prophesies, messenger}

          Ok outandabout why don’t you S**** or get off the pot. You’re starting to use the type of dishonest tactics as some other commenters. How about you quote exactly what I wrote that caused you to accuse me of believing what you claimed I do in the quote of yours I posted above. Or if you choose admit you didn’t understand my writing, because I never made such a claim.

          • outandabout says:

            messenger…..’unless his writings were written after his prophesies’ is what you said, which leaves room for doubt about the accuracy of said prophesies. In fact, no one can agree on when the book is written.
            I know the book is a whole lot more than the furnace incident, that was just one item I picked out from many to show the sort of stuff we are supposed to believe. I could break the whole story down, but there isn’t the space. The end message is the continuing theme – god’s greatness and the consequences of not believing in him. It wasn’t me who wrote the book, messenger, so please don’t shoot the messenger.
            I know the book of Daniel can’t be compared to the Indians, I was merely pointing out that it turns out gods all around the world are the same in that they are invisible, very strong, very powerful, are unpredictable, sometimes violent, in constant need of appeasement and that their actual existence can never be proven but must be believed in, sometimes upon pain of death and it’s in the human psyche to invent gods as a way of making sense of the world. I’m not responsible for that, messenger, and it’s not a judgement on you but an observation of human nature.

    • dee2 says:

      People having similar religious experiences points to the existence of God???

      Founders of religions such as:
      – Ellen G. White (Seventh-Day-Adventists), – Joseph Smith (Mormons),
      – Charles Taze Russell (JWs)
      all claimed to have received revelations/communications from God yet it is puzzling that their religions believe different things.

      Why didn’t God tell everyone the same thing?

      • Ted says:

        Outandabout, Dee2, irrefutable simple logic.
        Would you perchance be educators?

      • messenger says:

        dee2

        I’ve read quite a bit from early WT documents about Russell. About a hundred pages of the Finished Mystery was part of that reading. In it, and in other sources it was written that Russell never made claim to having had communications with God or any of God’s invisible representatives. Despite the fact you interpret some of his writings that way those close to him in Bethel that wrote about him did not. I also read some of Joseph Smith’s writings and studied those along with the Bible with Mormons while not using any WT publications. To me Smith’s writings make Smith look like a Fraud. Similar to WT writings when closely examined. I’m not familiar with Ellen White at all.

        I’m not aware of anyone who has claimed supernatural experiences that also claims they were told everything by God, just some things. Even Bible writers like Paul were not told everything, and he admitted he only had partial knowledge about the ways of God. Remember Ted alluded to those scriptures in a comment under the last article. Moses, Daniel and all the other prophets were in that same position.

        Your point that the information should match is valid. But if only partial knowledge was given to individuals by God then everything that was not given that they wrote was not. So those things that were not can contradict beliefs of other people having similar experiences, correct. For instance you could take my class learn and remember the exact same things as some person sitting next to you. But is that all you’re ever going to write about after finishing the class? I don’t think so. And so your writings might contradict what another student writes, even on the same topic. History shows Russell’s writings contradict a lot of current WT’s. Neither claim to have had revelations from God.

        It would be easier just to admit you don’t believe. You cannot disprove something you have no experience with, and there are gapping holes in the reasons you come up with while trying to do that.

        But if you know of some concrete evidence which proves that factually-no opinions please- the book of Daniel was written after his prophesies were fulfilled I’d like to see it. No book or author references without quotes citing that proof please.

        • dee2 says:

          Messenger,

          You are quick to deny that the founder of the JWs, Mormons & Seventh Day Adventists received revelations/communications from God yet you expect us to believe that you were contacted by God?

          You must be a very special person indeed!

          • messenger says:

            dee2

            What we have here is a failure to communicate. Dee2 I do not expect you to believe I had contact with God or anything else I say about God or the Bible. I expect the opposite, your nonbelief. Don’t you remember we had that long debate about your claim that the scriptures teach a person does not have to believe in Christ to be saved? That was your position. Mine was that scriptures do teach belief in Christ is necessary for salvation.

            Therefore, my position, with respect to you developing belief in God is that is very unlikely. For two reasons, first you teach against him and his purposes; secondly, as an ex-Witness you at once professed belief but lost it. I won’t describe here the expressed Biblical outcome for such individuals, but I trust you know that. My statements have always been that I believe the Bible, so I don’t expect you to agree with anything I write or believe about God, including my or another Christian’s personal experience.

        • Caroline says:

          yes messenger, I admit I don’t believe and yes I can’t disprove your experience with the supernatural world and I can’t disprove there was a god that made the trees and the grass and the birds and all the rest of our earth and universe, but can you prove it?

          Having experiences with the supernatural world does not prove in the grand creator of the heavens and the earth. All it proves is that you had some kind of personal experience.

          Yesterday I took my grand kids to the city pool in Kenosha and an older guy came alone and he stood there in his black bikini swimming trunks and looked quite conspicuous when he was talking to his imaginary friends and gesturing to them and was walking all around the pool area just watching all the kids and women in the pool.

          He was so creepy that I went to the life guards and told them to watch him because I was quite sure he was off his rocker. I am sure he was talking to someone supernatural too and just as I can’t disprove your claims to have been in touch with the supernatural, I can’t disprove he wasn’t talking to someone in the 4th dimension. It’s just that nobody else could see the person he was having an argument with and I think most people would say he needed to be on some medications.

          Just saying.

      • outandabout says:

        Because God drinks are fair bit and his speech is slurred, Dee.

        • messenger says:

          Notice the side-stepping going on here. In comments made several months ago some of these experts were claiming that there is factual evidence that Daniel was written after all the prophesies written in his book were fulfilled, thereby nullifying the authenticity of the claims made in Daniel. When asked for factual evidence proving that claim they waiver. One accuses me of possibly accepting that belief myself and then changes the topic, and others just changed the topic.

          Here, let me guess their next move. It should go something like this, “messenger you can’t prove your statements either.” So, let me answer that one before it’s written. As I informed dee2 in a post above, I’m not here to prove anything to you. Neither is that the purpose of the one I represent, God.

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            I see you are looking for a way to get out of addressing the point which I raised. So after all of those deflections and irrelevant, camouflaged arguments and attempts to change the topic could you please address my point:

            You are quick to deny that the founder of the JWs, Mormons & Seventh Day Adventists received revelations/communications from God yet you expect us to believe that you were contacted by God?

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, nobody here said they could prove Daniels’ prophecies were written after the fact. Nobody would be that stupid to make such a claim. But what they did say (me included) is that it would have been easy to do that. Since there is nobody around to prove it one way or another, all we can do is guess but what would be the most conceivable? The writing of it after the fact or writing it before the fact?

            Take a wild guess.

          • messenger says:

            @dee2 and Caroline

            Dee2 this is the third time I’m stating this, so by now you may have seen it in one of my comments. But let me reiterate, “I’M NOT EXPECTING YOU TO BELIEVE ANYTHING I WRITE.”

            Caroline, yes, you admit you guess. That’s what I’ve been accusing you of for some time now. You guess about things you have no experience with, and you also believe others in your same position. “If a blind man follows a blind man they both will fall into a pit.” From Jesus Christ. There are people with at least limited experience with the things you guess about, but you don’t believe them. That’s your choice, and according to scripture that’s what your limited existence is for, that is for you to make that choice.

            It’s not worth my time to go back some months and look up and quote those previous comments made about the book of Daniel. And I can’t even remember those involved in making those comments-probably Ted, Winston, dee2,Caroline, or a combination from that list. But if my recollection serves me there was/were (a) claim(s) made that the book of Daniel was written after those prophesies were fulfilled. And I believe the commenter cited some person(s) who claimed that as truth, citing that person or his book as an expert. I do not remember the idea being presented as a guess. And as I’ve claimed before, guessing often produces wrong answers.

          • messenger says:

            @ Caroline

            [messenger, nobody here said they could prove Daniels’ prophecies were written after the fact. Nobody would be that stupid to make such a claim. But what they did say (me included) is that it would have been easy to do that. Since there is nobody around to prove it one way or another]

            Caroline I take it that from your studies you learned that the Jewish scribes were very meticulous in hand copying their religious documents. So, I wonder why you assume nobody was around when the book of Daniel was accepted by the Jews as one of those documents. Not only were those scribes around, but also the rabbis, and the high priest and Sanhedrin part of that time, and also the whole Jewish population. Are you claiming none of these groups were around when the book of Daniel was accepted by the Jews as a prophetic document? That’s incorrect. So are you claiming that none of those people present cared enough to verify the date Daniel was written or what?

            For your assumption to be true not only the scribes but everyone else in that religion, at that time, would have to have looked the other way. Regarding original dates the same applies to all the religious documents making up the Bible.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, before making any more comments about the Hebrew Scriptures, why not do some serious research about how we got our Bibles other than Watchtower literature and then come back here and discuss it?

  2. Ted says:

    I did the window cleaning bit at one time, and one house
    I did belonged to a cat lady, I counted 12 cats sat on the
    window ledge downstairs and another dozen upstairs.

    then round the back of the house, more cats upstairs and
    downstairs. she left the upstairs window open one time,
    the stink nearly knocked me off the the ladder, I had to
    stop going there couldn’t stand the smell.

    But there were all these cats interbreeding, fathers with
    daughters, sons with mothers, brothers with sisters.
    That’s what incest is, just animalistic behaviour, not the
    actions of a good man or woman. In any age.

  3. Ted says:

    Hi outandabout, Your mention of the fiery furnace,
    3 guys surviving heat hot enough to melt iron and
    not even a hair singed. Leads to thoughts of the
    holocaust, when the nazis were throwing children
    into the furnaces alive.

    There was a rabbi there, brought up on these stories
    of how God saves the righteous from impossible
    situations. He cried out to God, to smite these evil
    men and save his people, what was the reply?
    SILENCE. But the rabbi finally got the message.

    • outandabout says:

      Right, Ted. God parted the Red Sea but failed to save them from the gas chambers. It always puzzles me – to displace billions of tons of water for a few hours must surely have used energy from somewhere in the universe, so wouldn’t it have been more economical to just Zap the Army with a few lightning bolts. But still, drama must be created, I suppose.

      • Caroline says:

        outandabout, don’t forget there were about 3 million “slaves” and their millions of animals that crossed the Red Sea in that one night too.

        I wonder where all those “slaves” got all those millions of animals and how did they feed all their animals when they were living in the land of Goshen during that time of being slaves and how did they feed and water all those animals on their way to the promised land 40 years later? And why would “slaves” own all those animals and their houses that they splashed blood on that night?

        • outandabout says:

          I didn’t know about that piece, Caroline, but I guess the answer is as always – He moves in mysterious ways.

    • outandabout says:

      and, Ted, I was pulling your leg about being a psychologist. I’ve been asked similar questions before and I had a moment of amused naughtiness back there but it turns out I’m just not comfortable with lying like that. It’s wrong. But I think it’s best if people remain anonymous anyway to avoid pigeon holing.
      I’d like to recommend a book for you written by James A Mitchener entitled The Source. It joined a few dots for me.
      Cheers.

  4. Caroline says:

    I can’t seem to post but a good talk to watch is called “The price of Shame” by Monica Lewinsky.

  5. dee2 says:

    Messenger,

    You claimed that people having similar religious experiences points to the existence of God.

    Well, just like you, the founder of the:
    – Seventh-Day-Adventists, Ellen G. White;
    – Mormons, Joseph Smith;
    – JWs, Charles Taze Russell,
    all claimed that God communicated with them yet it is puzzling that their religions believe different things.

    Why didn’t God tell everyone the same thing?

    • outandabout says:

      Oooooo……Dee……you’re really getting to the sharp end now……. Well if you ask me, if that’s ok, Satan is a very clever guy, right? Has he pulled the wool over everybody’s eye’s? How do we know that it wasn’t actually the Devil who wrote the bible just to confuse and divide people. I mean, just look at it!

      or………God wrote the bible as a test to just see who were the sheep and who were the goats, but, the story could be back to front – god doesn’t want believers who’ll go along with anything just because they’re told to…. he wants free thinkers in his paradise….like goats. Sheep will continue to ram that fence and never get anywhere, while goats climb right over the top, standing their with chests out. Maybe he wants a super race of intelligent free thinking and creative individuals known as Atheists (the A team) while Believers (the B team) can go on and continue to serve because that’s all they ever wanted in the first place. God has shown us time and time again that he LOVES slavery!

      “Hey Sheep!…fetch me a crocodile sandwich and make it snappy!!

      • dee2 says:

        o&a,

        Maybe God exists but he doesn’t communicate with people?

        • outandabout says:

          dee…..seems like gods do actually exist….right up until the moment people stop believing in them, and then….Poof!… all gone. Funny, that. Poor old Zeus, Ra and Co. must be really pissed….. what with all that pent up wrath and nobody to unleash it on.
          I guess if we stop believing in Armageddon, it won’t happen. Self fulfilling prophesies can actually occur if enough people are on the same page. Think ISIS. Think Israel, who believe that if they can steal enough land and get all the non Jew’s out of the promised land and all the Jew’s in, then finally they will be worthy of Christ’s return.

  6. Opinion vs truth says:

    As a bible reader i remember that Lot & his family were directed to immediately leave Sodom & Gomorrah because of all the badness that was going on. The #1 thing was homosexuality. The city was condemned for distruction because of the conditions. Also i remember reading in the bible where god condems many times men lying with men. Personally i dont hate anyone but i know only one person can read hearts and thats god. It’s not in anyones hands to judge anyone ever but the bible is clear on what god finds right & wrong. So id just like to say to anyone reading this to read the bible to see for yourself what it really has to say on the matter. Thanks for your time!!

    • Caroline says:

      Opinion vs truth, I have that account open right now at Genesis chapter 18 and I see nothing that says anything about homosexuality. All it says is that Jehovah was walking along with Abraham and 2 angels and Jehovah said that he had heard that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah and Jehovah was going to go down there and see it for himself and then there was the conversation between Jehovah and Abraham about pardoning the city if there were only 10 righteous people and not destroy the whole city. Remember that. Read it. Nothing about homosexuality.

      If those people had never been given any law by Jehovah, then why would Jehovah destroy them for sinning? How could they be sinning against Jehovah when Jehovah had never spoken to them?

      Think about it. When you read the Bible, meditate on it like Watchtower tells you to do. Take notes and come back and discuss that account after you have studied it and meditated on it.

      • Caroline says:

        Just a few comments about that account about Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible says that nobody has ever seen Jehovah and lived and yet that account says that Jehovah was walking around with Abraham and if Jehovah was God, why was it that he had “heard” about the sin in Sodom and Gomorrah? God is God and that god Jehovah sounds more like a human to me. (messenger, my opinion)

        Messenger what is your opinion on that account? Do you have an opinion about that account of Jehovah not knowing what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and had to walk down to the city to see for himself?

        What do you have to say about the fact that the Bible says that nobody has ever seen Jehovah and yet lived and yet this account says that Jehovah was walking around with Abraham and 2 angels?

    • Covert Fade says:

      Out of curiosity, what’s your opinion about Lot sleeping with his daughters after they left Sodom? Seems like incest might be a tad worse than two consenting, non-related adults entering a same sex relationship, no?

  7. twistedsister69 says:

    Honestly, I don’t understand why Jehovah’s Witnesses still condemn homosexuality. I mean, what’s your problem people? Just read your own Goddamned bibles! So many times, your Jehovah is referred to as The Ancient of Gays.

  8. Tess says:

    I am a witness, but I do think that the reactions done in the movie were socially wrong. Yes, Tess is in their house. They have the right to say anything and everything, but still, have a bit of respect to the person. I had a colleague who was raised by two women. Amazingly, both of them were written down on her birth certificate as her parents. I never reacted violently. I have close friends who were gays, I even shared an apartment with two other gays! I don’t really see any problem with it. I mean,we all have a choice. It is now all upon me if I choose to be homo or not, they’re humans too. They need to be treated respectfully.

    On a personal note, I love my gay friends because they live up to their name: they’re happy and cheerful. Unlike those who were called by God’s name and are judgmental and discriminating.

  9. John says:

    I am an Ex JW – does this mean I have to be nesessarily pro homo and I have to say here the WTS is wrong ? Maybe HERE the WTG is right !! ? Whatever the bible says, gay practices are appalling and a horrible shame and I detest them

    • Caroline says:

      John, the Bible also says that gluttons will receive death at Jehovah’s hands. If you have a guest in your house, would you insult them by telling them that you live by Bible standards as far as overeating goes? Do you condemn any of the friends at the Kingdom hall who are fat? People need to learn tact if they want to get along in the world. Normal people learn tact and would not go on and on about Bible standards because a guest in their house has “gay” parents. Normal people learn to keep their mouths shut to be polite and nice.

      If that girl’s parents wanted to study to become Witnesses, then they’d have to change in order to be a Witness.

      If you believe in the Bible and take it at face value then yes the Watchtower will never be able to change it’s stance on gay marriage but at least they could teach the people who attend those assemblies how to be tactful in situations like that.

      That video and all the other anti-gay videos from the Society or other “Christian” religions are arrogant and self-righteous and are giving their followers the green light to be self-righteous and arrogant and judgmental to anybody who does not agree with them and they think that because they are going by what the Bible say, then they are perfectly in the right because they are speaking for God.

      That is what religion does to some people.

  10. Renee Weatherall says:

    In your negative review of witness beliefs, you fail to mention Or research any Scriptural basis which backs up those beliefs. How about seeing how God himself feels. Since He created male & female is it right for us humans to go against His purpose. Man can’t have children with man nor can two women. Did GOD say it is okay. The Scriptures says at 1Corinthians 6::9,10 Or do you not know. Do not be misled homosexuals will not inherit GOD”s kingdom along with isolators greedy people drunkards.. Leviticus 20:11-12 says that both should be put to death. They have violated what is natural. The Bible speaks for them. Why not research God’s word. GOD has not changed his mind. Seems we are the ones who want to take God’s word out of context to fetish our own selfish desires. GOD isn’t one to be mocked.

  11. Renee Weatherall says:

    I would also like to add GOD gave us the ability to discern right from wrong. Psalm 83:18 says that you whose name is Jehovah art the Most High over all the earth. Would the world be in the this disastrous state if we followed Bible principles instead of relying on our own understanding?

  12. lil says:

    i’m one of Jehovah’s witness and i believe that if all read the bible and understand it fully we should not be wondering about who said it right or wrong because we all have the conscious that bare witness to every we do and say, we will be all directed by the most high…jeremiah 23:10

    • Covert Fade says:

      So talking about right and wrong, what’s your opinion of Lot sleeping with his two daughters after he fled Sodom in Genesis 19? Seems like that’s a little bit worse than a same sex relationship with someone you’re not related to, yet apparently God was fine with it. Yet his wife got killed for simply glancing back.

      Seems strange, no?

  13. susan howard says:

    Jesus never discriminated against anyone, and we are taught to be Christlike (Christian) so would never be rude, impolite about anyone’s sexuality or gender preference. Jesus said all sorts of people would come into his kingdom. As for the wife of Lot I thought she lost her life because she did not obey, but looked back towards her old life in an immoral city Sodom.