The Jehovah’s Witness religion has long been known for its vocal disapproval of the LGBT community. On a doctrinal level it teaches that any practicing homosexuals are sinful and deserve to die, and that very soon God will kill any such person at the upcoming battle of Armageddon.
On an everyday level, whilst it does not press for government action or laws against the LGBT community due to a strict doctrine of total political disconnection, it does directly persecute it’s own members who are LGBT by requiring them to remain celibate for life. Should any of them refuse to do so, the religion demands that they be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends, with the additional threat of shunning for any family or friends who refuse to comply.
So a JW born into the religion and baptised as a young child, which is increasingly the case, and who grows up to discover they are gay, will be faced with a choice: deny their sexuality forever or lose everyone they have ever known.
In recent years Watchtower, the organisation that controls the Witness religion, has released a large number of videos that make strong anti-LGBT statements, and this year is no exception. However, it seems that the rhetoric is on this topic escalating to a worrying degree, as Witnesses are now being instructed to become directly confrontational when encountering gays, lesbians, or others who do not fit Watchtower’s narrow view of approved sexual identities.
One such example of the escalation in rhetoric is the new Watchtower produced video drama, “Remember the Wife of Lot.”
Remember the Wife of Lot.
The official webpage of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, JW.org, has just released a series of videos that will play at the religions upcoming series of 2017 worldwide conventions. One of the videos is a three part drama entitled “Remember the Wife of Lot.” It can be viewed here.
Intended to be a modern day parallel to the Biblical tale of Lot in the last days of Sodom and Gomorrah, Watchtower states on JW.org;
The warning Jesus gave nearly 2,000 years ago is more important than ever. See how Brian and Gloria learn to protect their family from the dangers Jesus warned about.
One of those dangers is, of course, the insidious and sinful LGBT community.
There are two scenes in which Watchtower’s message on homosexuality is showcased, but one of them really stood out to me as requiring more refutation than usual. Not just because of the nature of the teachings themselves; by this point I’m very familiar with the anti-LGBT message Watchtower promotes and sadly it no longer shocks me quite the way it would someone encountering JW.org for the first time. Rather it was the sheer bad manners the Witness characters displayed in the sequence that dropped my jaw.
Let’s set the scene.
Brian and Gloria are two Witness parents, whose daughter has invited some of her workmates back for a meal. One of these workmates is a girl called Tess. During the mealtime conversation, it emerges that Tess is considered to be one of the top interns at the company. The JW wife, Gloria, tells Tess that her parents must be very proud, and Tess replies:
“My Moms are both really proud of me. I was raised by two wonderful women.”
And thus begins one of the most excruciating, clumsy and crass examples of homophobic propaganda in recent Witness history.
The dinner party from Hell
What happens when Tess drops this “bombshell?”
Remember, the Witness characters have been taught that homosexuality is a grave sin worthy of death at Jehovah’s God’s hands when he brings a worldwide Armageddon, which Witnesses believe to be coming soon. Any baptised Witness who is unrepentantly romancing the same-sex is required to be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends.
Make no mistake, in the eyes of the Witness characters in this scene, Tess’ parents are doing something revolting and deserve to die unless they split up, become Witnesses and either marry men or remain celibate.
However, given the fact that Tess is not a Witness and is simply responding to a passing question, it seems like the polite thing to do would be to simply move on and continue the conversation about the internship. Yet instead the Witness characters act like she’s just slapped them all in the face and spat on the table. Their jaws drop, they stammer, and the father Brian gives Tess a stern stare of anger and disgust.
Next, in a display of what I can only describe as social incompetence of the worst order, the Witness character Gloria learns forward with a concerned expression and replies in a horrified tone that she’s just found her that her assistant at work is gay.
Seriously. This is what she does. Watch the video.
Gloria’s tone of voice and expression make it sound like she’s telling everyone that her assistant is a rapist, or has highly contagious mutant space-rabies, or just started their very own Adolf Hitler fan club.
Now, quite why she would say that to a person whose has just casually mentioned they have same sex parents, and in that tone of voice, I have no idea. She’s either deliberately being atrociously rude, or has absolutely no grasp of appropriate social interaction, or perhaps suffers from some unholy and catastrophic mix of the two.
Quite rightly, Tess demands to know what’s wrong with a same sex couple, since its clear her parents are being directly insulted. Incredibly, the video actually presents Tess as being the inconsiderate, rude one for daring to speak of and defend her parents in front of the JW family. Apparently, when asked about her parents, she should have either denied the existence of her loving mothers, or edited their genders so as to coddle the fragile sensitivities of the Witnesses.
The scene continues, with another guest joining the pushback against the JW’s and arguing in support of same sex relationships. Since this is a Watchtower video, the pushback doesn’t go into very much detail, as Watchtower has never been one to give a fair hearing the opposite side of the argument. However, even by the standards of the scene itself, it’s actually the immoral and wicked people of “Satan’s world” who end up coming across as the reasonable ones, and the righteous JW “heroes” who end up looking like they possess all the tact and social grace of a pack of flatulent, drunken hyenas.
For example: at one point Gloria appears to concede that maybe gays and lesbians are born that way, but Brian quickly intervenes and squashes this idea. He gives a lecture about everyone having free will, and outlines his sales pitch for Watchtower’s interpretation of the Bible, which condemns the woman’s parents loving relationship as harmful. Incredibly, he also states that Witnesses “don’t push their religion down anyone’s throat,” despite the fact that he and Gloria have just turned a passing mention of same sex parentage into a lengthly and toe-curling excuse to harangue and chastise the child of those parents!
What if the tables were turned?
Let’s switch this around.
Let’s say that Tess had Jehovah’s Witness parents, and that Brian and Gloria are non-Witnesses.
During the meal, it casually comes up in passing that Tess’s parents are Witnesses. Brian and Gloria react in shock, pulling faces of disgust, and then Gloria replies in horrified tones that she recently found out that her assistant is a Witness. When the other guests point out how rude Brian and Gloria are being, the couple do not apologise but rather they double down, lambasting Tess about how sinful her Witness parents are, and deliver a patronising sermon to try to push their own beliefs.
Can you imagine how rude that would be?
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness reading this, I’m sure you understand how hurt and upset that child of Witness parents would feel. Surely now you can understand how hurt and upset the child of a same sex couple would feel if treated in like manner? Even if you fully subscribe to Watchtower’s teachings on homosexuality, you must surely admit that the way the Witness characters acted in this scene is incredibly obnoxious and rude.
Yet this is clearly the way that the Governing Body wants you to treat anyone who casually mentions their sexuality or that of their loving parents.
How do you feel about that?
Why does JW.org create these videos?
If you are not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you may simply pass this video off as a weird bit of badly acted, poorly written, socially backward storytelling, but I’d urge you to understand the following point:
These videos are not simply intended to be entertainment for Jehovah’s Witnesses. These videos are directly intended to be training for all Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.
This video is directly intended to demonstrate to Witnesses how to handle a situation where a person casually mentions that they have two fathers, or two mothers. Witnesses worldwide are now expected to hassle, harass, and lecture them. Letting the comment simply go unmentioned is not on the list of options presented here, and every Witness watching the video will understand this.
If you think we’re exaggerating, in 2016 JW.org brought out a CGI children’s cartoon/instructional video explicitly encouraging young Witness children to lecture the young children of same-sex couples about the sinful nature of their parent’s relationship and the need to become Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to avoid death and gain paradise.
The video quite rightly drew worldwide condemnation, not only due to the homophobic nature of the message, but also due to the incredibly crass way it encouraged Witness children to harass their classmates and other non-witnesses in such a rude, unpleasant manner. Sadly it appears that nothing has changed at JW.org, if this latest video is anything to go by.
Now, it has to be said than many actual Witnesses will probably be far too polite to actually take the advice given here (and others might be reluctant to follow this advice from a sheer sense of social self preservation if nothing else) but nonetheless it illustrates how the leadership of Watchtower views the LGBT community and how it expects its followers to behave towards them.
Quite frankly, setting all issues of theology and the human rights of the LGBT community to one side, it appears that the leadership and scriptwriting teams at JW.org are in desperate need of a strong lesson in manners.
For a more detailed examination of the homophobia on display in “Remember the Wife of Lot,” check out the following videos and articles from JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans.
Article in the Huffington Post on the homophobic aspects of Remember the Wife of Lot
You can also watch a more detailed breakdown of the wider aspects of cult manipulation and abusive doctrine in Remember the Wife of Lot as part of this video from Lloyd Evans. The link will take you to the part of the video where the drama is discussed.
Follow me on twitter @covertfade
Follow Lloyd Evans on twitter @cedarsjwsurvey
Follow JWSurvey on twitter @jwsurveyorg
It’s clear to us all that Dee, and Caroline don’t believe
In the existence of Yahweh, “But you do Messenger.
All they are doing is reasoning from your viewpoint
and showing how unreasonable it is to worship a god
with the character of a Adolph Hitler, or Genghis Khan.
It’s a perfectly legitimate way of debating.
I’m assuming that in FS or bible study, you have argued
against the Trinity. So I put your point back to you.
Why try to disprove something that does not exist?
The essence is, the thing is real in the mind of the other
person.
As Dee and Caroline have requested, try answering the
specific points they have raised, instead of deflecting
onto a non issue.
you’ve gotta hand it to messenger, Ted. He sticks it out. He’s showing certain qualities and he’s going to make a fine atheist.
Right, Outandabout I think Messengers tough exterior is
about to crack, just keep chipping patiently away and
he’ll soon be joining the happy campers. Breathing the
the fresh clean air. LOL
Actually, Ted, messenger won’t let his tough exterior crack. He has too much riding on his belief, but he’s still what’s commonly known as ‘a bloody good guy!’ Except for the indoctrinating of defenseless children, of course.
Just coerced my computer into letting me see the video. Pathetic. Also, really subpar acting. Enjoyed the CGI Effects at the end though. Verrry scary!!! I almost sh*t my pants! Agreed with Cedars’ assessments of the video. Though, toward the end, he sounded a bit like an apologist. I mean, Yes, don’t go around throwing rocks at Jehovah’s Witlesses, but, UNlike homosexuality, following a tiny cabal of deluded manipulators is NOT genetic. FREE WILL does come into play here. I don’t give a pass to hardcore witlesses just because they have been “subjected” to propaganda. So were the Khmer Rouge. So were the Nazis. Did that get them a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card at Nuremberg? Remember, the cynical manipulators of this world can do NOTHING without FOLLOWERS. As far as I’m concerned, if jws knock at your door, go ahead & read them the Riot Act.
Just sayin’
BTW, on a totally unrelated topic, Jehovah’s Witlesses forbid the singing of / standing for the National Anthem of one’s country, say, at the beginning of a sporting event, for example. Yet, they sing one of hundreds of different so-called “Kingdom Melodies” at the beginning, middle, AND end of EACH meeting, each of which is not unlike a Mini-Anthem unto itself. Wasn’t it “Jesus” who said something about a splinter in one’s eye, & a RAFTER in another’s?
PS Not sure if anyone has already commented on this, but isn’t it curious that the Happy Homophobic JW Family was portrayed as being Asian? Did WT believe their message would carry less of a “sting”, be more “politically correct”, be more appropriate, appear less bigoted, if it was presented by another minority group rather than, say, a “mainstream” family of whites? How GULLIBLE do they think we are??? Geez, talk about CYNICAL MANIPULATION! Sneaky little devils, aren’t they? But a pretty weak trick, lacking in sophistication. Thank God evil people are so stupid. SNAKES, SNAKES, SNAKES.
The GB are at it again with their own rules as doctrines.
Take a look at this quote from The Watchtower (Study Edition), October 2017, under the title “The Truth Brings, Not Peace, But a Sword”, Paragraph 19:
“Respect the discipline of Jehovah. His arrangement can bring the best long-term outcome for all, including the wrongdoer, even though the immediate effect is painful. (Read Hebrews 12:11.) For example, Jehovah instructs us to “stop keeping company” with unrepentant wrongdoers. (1 Cor. 5:11-13) Despite our pain of heart, we must avoid normal contact with a disfellowshipped family member by telephone, text messages, letters, e-mails, or social media.”
That’s totally NOT normal and I’m sure that non-witness relatives would love to learn about that, especially as paragraph 14 states:
“By your example, let your relatives see that Jehovah’s Witnesses enjoy happy marriages, look after their children, and live a clean, moral, and fulfilling life.”
They would be able to do all of the above if the WTS weren’t controlling every aspect of their lives!
What’s also ridiculous are actions WT wants Christians to repent from. Here’s an example one of the most blatant scriptural distortions naming an action that must not be done or if so requires repentance: repent from celebrating Christ’s birthday.
The scriptures factually do teach Christians to repent from following WT’s unbiblical teachings. Now we know one of the reasons people didn’t listen to us in field service. Some of those even shunned us.
“Transference of our consciousness to another universe”.
Yet more fantasy or wishful thinking from Messenger,
the kind of straws that people cling to, to avoid facing up to
their own oblivion. It’s pure egotism, a false assessment
of ones importance in the cosmos.
We’re mammals with 99% chimp DNA, 79% mouse, and
with the same prognosis as far as our eventual destiny is
concerned. A Wildebeest gets eaten by a Croc, it comes
out as Croc, sh-t at the other end, exactly the same happens
when the Croc, eats a man. —>
So what happens to the 2 consciousnesses now? The
Wildebeest’s remains in the croc evacuation but the man’s
goes flying off to Andromeda, or Alcyone. or some invisible
dimension. Well why not ! If it helps you get a good nights
sleep.
What I don’t do Ted is argue scripture for the sake of winning arguments that cannot be won because the other side is unreasonable. Let’s cite two instances of such occurrences in pasts posts. One commenter claimed in her source the Greek scriptures, or more precisely what she refers to as the synoptic gospels (Matt, Mark, and Luke) it is NOT taught that to gain salvation a person must believe in Jesus Christ. That argument is almost to ridiculous to address. It is refuted by so many scriptures. For instance Mark 16:16 “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.” KJ
I asked her what gospel and grace means in the Bible and she blew up without answering the question. And of course everyone knows Christians are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And who is the Son? Another example: a commenter continues to argue God Jehovah is Moluch or Molech even when shown by the scriptures he is not.
You guys argue what you don’t know. So you assume. That’s understandable. Nevertheless you assume wrong. Let me illustrate how and why what you come up with are wrong answers when you assign suppositions about things existing in this and other universes by trying to extrapolate -to use one of outandabout’s words, meaning “extend the application of (a method or conclusion, especially one based on statistics) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable-” to unknown aspects about this and other universes.
Let’s take a Beethoven composition. There were only twelve notes he used. And that number was often limited to families of only seven notes. So he wrote primarily with families of seven notes, changing to other families of similar audio patterns starting on higher or lower pitches, while he interjected other notes from the group of twelve into those family patterns according to certain methods that can be looked at as rules. His compositions were also arranged in patterns both horizontally and vertically. Although he only used twelve notes, grouping them primarily in families of only seven, and although he arranged the notes according to patterns that often repeat why is it you cannot always guess the next notes or pattern of notes he wrote in a composition? If you can’t do that, though you’ve heard all the notes before, why do you think you can guess something you have no experience with and there is an indefinite possibility of what it could include? That’s why you assume in darkness, and that’s why the scientists you put faith in do also. You make assumptions about something you know nothing about. Because of your assumptions when you hear from other people who do know something about it you don’t believe. The Bible writers knew from personal experiences evidence proving things that you can only guess about. Yet you boast more than them that you know for sure. That doesn’t sound too smart to me which is another reason for me not to argue or debate scriptural points just because someone asks me to answer those. And what is your common response, “prove it to me.” If God won’t prove it to you then why do you think a human can or should?
:
messenger, you don’t argue scripture because you don’t have any scriptures to argue with. Your comment about Beethoven is total bull crap and you know it.
Give up already. You’ve got nothing except emotion.
Keep following the herd and you’ll run off the precipice. Maybe that’s why Bible writers wrote about the pit of hell. Scriptures haven’t taught you anything Caroline except to hate. So why should I share those with you? You miss the forest for the trees and claim that applies to Bible believers.
The only folks I can see going along with some of the hate towards God that you claim go along when you share with them, if that’s so, are the Biblically illiterate. And all JWs who have ever spent time in door to door work know that there are a ton of those people in every direction. But I know real Christians don’t make such claims you assert they do. You should get on a slower horse, maybe an ass, because the precipice is not far away for you. I hope you don’t go over.
messenger, I am not afraid of Jehovah the same as I am not afraid of Superman or Spider man.
If serving that god floats your boat, then I don’t care. Just don’t come on here preaching to us that we need to obey Jehovah’s “laws” and rules and live by Bible those Bible principles unless you can define just what those laws and rules and principles are, which you won’t do because you refuse to open up your Bible and bring them to our attention, or maybe it’s because just like the rest of us were, you only know how to defend against hell fire and the immortal soul and the trinity and the cross and are completely ill-equipped as far as the rest of the Bible goes.
I also thought I knew the Bible backwards and forwards but now I realize I was ignorant just as probably 100% of all so-called “Christians” are too.
As far as reading my Bible and knowing it now, I do and you don’t and so all you got going for you is rhetoric and cliches.
You don’t come back with any scriptures because you don’t know your Bible but I do and so all you can do is try and insinuate that I am ignorant of the Bible or God’s ways.
Really, if you don’t know your Bible, get out your Insight books and start reading. You will be amazed at what you find out or if you really want to know what kind of god you are worshipping, start reading Joshua and Judges and read them out loud to a child and see how to terrify them with the escapades of “God’s people” the Israelites.
Caroline,
[“…..read them out loud to a child and see how to terrify them with the escapades of “God’s people” the Israelites.” ]
I remember just how shocked I was as a child when while at the Kingdom Hall, the scripture about God killing 70,000 innocent Israelites for David’s “sin” of taking a census was read (2 Samuel 24:10-15). I was about 12 years old at the time.
I asked the person who studied the Bible with me why did God do this? She had a very fearful, terrified look on her face as if to say: we should never question what is in the Bible.
Her response was that David didn’t trust God he trusted in numbers & military might. She then quoted Zephaniah 4:6:
” ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.”
That certainly opened my eyes to understand that when humans commit atrocities it is wrong but when God does it, it is OK.
Richard Schiller, according to the N.W.T. at 2 Sam. 24:1 it says “one” incited David to take the census but according to the King James it was Jehovah who told David to take the census but the N.W.T. says at 1 Chronicles 21:1 it was Satan who incited David to take the census.
So, it was Jehovah (Satan) who incited David to take the census and the writers of the N.W.T. put “one” instead of Jehovah at 2 Sam. 24:1.
Messenger and Rick, why do you think the Society put “one” in that scripture instead of Jehovah????
Do you really know who you are worshipping? Jesus did say “didn’t we do all these things for you and yet they will say to him, you never knew me”.
Caroline you insult your own intelligence. And are you and dee2 really still JWs coming up with illogical arguments in order to scare other JWs away from this site? I don’t need a lot of scriptures to show how foolish your statements are, all I need to do is point out the stupidity of your comments. For instance, you claim to have read all my posts for months, and yet above you just claimed I can only use the Bible to defend JW assertions about the cross, hell fire, trinity, and the immortality of the soul. So I ask again, are you dishonest or just stupid, or to be kind is it you cannot remember? If you really read my posts you know I never commented on any of those topics here and have no desire to defend WT’s position on those topics since their positions on those are indefensible. So again, why another untruth on your part, bad reading comprehension, bad memory, or dishonesty? Also, your suggestion for me to read the WT Insight book in order to better understand the Bible contradicts what I thought is your stated position on WT’s beliefs doesn’t it? Or, like I stated above do you agree that WT teaches the scriptures correctly? Do you? Are you a WT supporter, at least teaching others here it is the best organization to represent Bible scriptures accurately? Tell us.
Anyone that wants to understand scriptures should first teach themselves to read and understand connected words and thoughts through practice, and then read the scriptures. It’s not necessary or is it my desire to quote and comment on a lot of scriptures for someone who really wants to understand those. For people who don’t understand though they have done those things, there is a Bible stated reason for it. Why don’t you tell your readers what that reason is according to scriptures? I trust you’ve read those. Oh, also tell your readers what the scriptures advise Christians to do towards people who hate God. Yes the God of the Bible. Does the Bible advise Christians to teach those people? Tell us what it says, you claim to know scriptures. If your reading comprehension is at least adequate you should be able to accurately explain those simple Bible scriptures I reverenced without my spoon feeding your audience by quoting and name labeling those scriptures.
messenger, before you start calling me stupid and can’t read and don’t have any reading comprehension and so on, why not try reading my comment again. I never said that you can defend or would defend Watchtower teachings like hell fire, trinity, cross or immortal soul. I said that MAYBE like the rest of us, you only learned how to defend those subjects.
I was telling you that I, and I think most Witnesses didn’t know much about the Bible except how to talk about those certain topics. Since I have left the Watchtower, now I do know a lot about the Bible and find it really interesting and I mark down tons of scriptures that went right over my head before when I was a Witness and closed my mind to it when I would read those scriptures.
I believe that like most Witnesses, you are ignorant of what the Bible really says as well as most people who aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses who consider themselves “Christians.” That is the only way I can try and understand why you still believe in the god of the Hebrew Scriptures. I believe you only think you know what it says and you refuse to read those scriptures because you don’t want to be proved wrong.
I have tried to make my comments civil to you but you refuse to use any scriptures to come back and tell us about Jehovah’s goodness, love and mercy. You are the one who needs to prove me wrong when I say that Jehovah is a blood thirsty horrible, despicable character.
I will not go back and apologize when I say that anybody who worships that god is sick in the head and if that is you, then that is you. You can call me ignorant and stupid if you want to, but water rolls off a duck’s back and all you have to show is water with no substance and if you had the scriptures, you’d show them to us.
As I do read all your comments, I am still wondering why you were never appointed as an elder with all your pioneering etc. Maybe it’s because of the way you refuse to reason?
and adding to my other comment about the Reasoning books. They are great references. What ever made you think that I discount everything Watchtower ever printed? Just because Watchtower lies about a lot of the things that the Bible really says and it’s history and is despicable when it comes to it’s disfellowshipping policies and letting kids be molested and insisting that it’s wrong to take blood or get disfellowshipped for it and on and on, doesn’t mean that everything Watchtower has ever printed is hog wash. I use the Insight books a lot and I have used the Insight books a lot when I comment here. I also use the concordance a lot.
If you take your concordance and look up the word mercy, see how many things that Jehovah did that was merciful. I am very curious or aren’t you interested in proving your point about how merciful Jehovah is. I double dare you to find even one scripture to show how merciful Jehovah is.
Caroline
Ok, I’ll stop with the accusations as it appears you have some type of impairment(s). You just claimed a lot of information about me that I never wrote here, and it’s not accurate information. Therefore even if you knew me that info would have to be fabricated by you or someone you heard it from. Is that the case? If not something is happening with you, but who knows what it is.
I never claimed I was never an elder; I never claimed I was ever a pioneer, so why do you make such statements about me in addition to claiming I don’t read the Bible, even after I claimed recently here that I’ve read the whole thing. I also believe I stated on an older post that I once I listened to the whole Bible read from tapes over a 30 day period, which is the difference between watching a movie and seeing isolated scenes from it stretched out over years. And maybe you only taught people or attempted to teach people four things when you were a Witness but that’s not the case with me. So why did you claim that?
And Caroline I don’t have to do anything you claim I must do, like prove something to you or others here. Since my claim to you is that God is not ethically responsible to prove anything to you then why would you think I feel an ethical need to do so? Do you think I consider myself more righteous than God?
You’re right there Caroline. It’s Batman you’ve got to watch out for! ;)
Chimp DNA 99 % human, what a difference though that
1% makes, God sends his son to save us, but poor old
chimp just missed out he can go to hell. What’s in that
extra 1% ? Maybe that’s the bit that goes flying off to
another universe,
@Ted, I think you’ll find fruit flies DNA is, like, 95% human. Those poor fruit flies missed out too.
Richard Schiller , Before I even read your comments
I know what you’re going to open up with. –>
“Somebody’s full of crap”. Very persuasive rebuttal
man. Truthfully I never read beyond your first sentence,
mostly not even that.
Hi Rick,
[Now for the 99% monkey how dare you say what a difference 1% makes, where is it, 1% the teeth, 1% the full body fur, 1% the toes, 1% the bare ass.]
The “1%” difference is a reference to DNA sequences. As per Google:
“Our closest animal relatives are the great apes: chimpanzees, orangutans and gorillas. About 98% of the DNA in your genes is exactly the same as in chimpanzees, making you as closely related to a chimp as horses are to zebras.”
Our ability to sequence DNA is only been a recent development. However it has revealed what the theory of evolution had been predicting — that species change over time and are not immutable productions.
Yet, even small difference in DNA can make for a noticeable physical difference. For example you asked about penis size. Here are some comments from an article in UK Daily Mail:
“Gentlemen, if you’ve ever been concerned about the size of your penis, take comfort in the fact that no matter how small it seems, it is one of the largest in the primate world.
An evolutionary biologist has compared the sizes of genitals of humans to gorillas and apes to look at why there is such a discrepancy between the species.
And he concludes the human penis may have grown so long to make it more conspicuous to potential partners, or even as a way of cooling the body down.”
Cheers,
-Randy
Rick, in my opinion, it is almost impossible to follow what you are trying to say and your comment is disgusting. If I were the moderator, I would bar you from commenting anymore.
Thank goodness. I thought it was just me who could not understand him.
Totally agree. Rick has a nasty, spiteful and disgusting edge to him and is it any wonder he has trash people in his house because those are the only types of people who can be bothered with him. He wouldn’t make it past my letterbox. Take a hike Rick. Christian? Get off he grass mate!
Ted,
Admittedly, the operation of the human brain is yet to be fully understood. There is yet no physical, biological or computational theory which adequately explains our consciousness and consequent intelligence (yet artificial intelligence seems to be making strides).
So religionists like to use this argument to claim that humans are special and we are conscious for a reason & that because of this consciousness we live on after the death of the physical body.
I will believe that consciousness makes humans special when someone comes back from the dead and tells me about their encounter with God. I would like to hear the details of what God told them and what they told God and what the afterlife is like.
Religion has made human existence out to be more than it really is.
For millions of years there were no humans on the earth. Is this some kind of experiment by God?
Wasn’t there a reason why God created the dinosaurs too? Weren’t they just as special when God created them?
What greater purpose is served by creating dinosaurs then destroying them and then creating humans? Aren’t we vulnerable to being destroyed just like the dinosaurs too?
God didn’t have a higher purpose for the dinosaurs but now he suddenly has a higher purpose for humans?
Ultimately, the sun will stop shining and the earth will be no more. So, will someone explain to me again just how special humans are?
Just a side note about consciousness:
What is known so far is that consciousness is impacted altered when persons experience brain injury or neurological disorders.
Brain injury and neurological disorders prove that consciousness is fundamentally a physical phenomenon and that the brain mediates and controls all aspects of consciousness; every part of the mind is entirely dependent on and controlled by the brain.
The brain itself is the source of consciousness. There is no good reason to believe that there is an immaterial soul separate from the functioning of the brain that guides our actions.
The mind is not separate from the brain, but it arises from and is produced by neural activity within the brain. Simply stated, the mind is what the brain does. Our minds arise from the workings of our brains.
Hi Dee2,
[Admittedly, the operation of the human brain is yet to be fully understood. There is yet no physical, biological or computational theory which adequately explains our consciousness and consequent intelligence (yet artificial intelligence seems to be making strides).]
I just completed a presentation assignment in my ENG101 course (yes, at 52, I’m finally a college student) about AI. I argue that while computing power has doubled every two years as per Moore’s Law, the fundamentals of how computers make decisions haven’t changed in decades. That our worry about AI often focuses on self-will, which so far hasn’t showed up in artificial machines. However, AI elements like knowledge bases, search algorithms and neural networks can accomplish incredible feats and that should make us worry not about the system itself, but instead the motivation of the humans who design and implement such systems.
In contrast biological brain development has been survival based where things like self-will are important. Humans are also social and spend a fair bit of time thinking about what others are thinking. Such mind-reading may be one of the reasons why we have thoughts about God. This, I believe, is not much different than thinking about what someone else is thinking who is not physically present.
I’m in agreement with the view there is no good reason to believe we must separate brain function and consciousness from physical existing matter. That said, there is economy is being somewhat casual in how we view all the connected layers. As a software engineer I am aware transistors have an important function in how my program operates, but generally I don’t have to think about them. Likewise a chemist doesn’t need to expend lots of energy thinking about quantum mechanics to be successful.
From the level of atoms up through the chemical to biological layers that arrives at brain matter I think we can be confident the is nothing magical happening. Yet at the same time, the vast complexity of the sum of all the parts may make it economical, perhaps even correct in a way, to think in terms of a separate existence of “us” as “individuals.”
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy,
Here’s wishing you every success in your studies. Your achievement will be an inspiration to others.
All the best.
@dee2
Right, the bible character David trusted in numbers rather than in God.
Ironically, Jehovah’s Witlesses r doing the same thing!
@TwistedS
Oh the things we read in the Bible.
So the JWs are trusting in numbers like David………I wonder who God is going to kill this time?
@messenjah
@Ricardo
@ANTONINVS
@The Schiller Brothers
@all jws
What if u r wrong?
LOL TwistedS…….”messenjah”…….how about a Jamaican twist to it……..”messenJAH RASTAFARI”…….LOL
TS that’s not the question you should be asking. You should be asking what if you are wrong. What I know I’m not wrong about are things that I know are reality, and I only assert those things. I don’t assert things I guess at because I don’t fully understand.
My observance that guessers are usually wrong is correct. I’ve seen that too many times while teaching and asking questions of students for a response. If I don’t fully interpret something I see I admit it. Very many of you are guessing, like many students do even when they are taught by trained people who are factually informed. Let’s put it this way, if you wanted to learn anything would you choose to do so from people who at least claim to have actual experience in that field or people who admit they know nothing about it, because of having no personal experience with the subject?
No, seriously. What if u r wrong?
Twisted Sister
All my comments are serious TS. I’m not wrong about what I know. Since we talk about God, the Bible and the WT here as the main topics I respond to comments based on what I know. Also, I’m not wrong that many people here are presenting information that they have guessed about, the same way WT has done with most of the stuff it taught us. That’s why WT is usually wrong. Not because it chooses to be, but because it guesses like many of my students do.
Without personal experience regarding any type of knowledge we depend on others who claim to know because of having personal experiences. Of course we can all read, but that’s just one way of learning from the experiences others gained through their personal acts. I do know for sure that beings that we cannot naturally see exist in dimensions we cannot see, and that those beings have contacted some people on Earth to share messages with them. My belief is that some of the people contacted by those beings wrote the Bible. So, when you say what if I’m wrong what part of that are you referring to? Do you mean it didn’t happen or that the messages misdirected us?
When I say you guys are guessing I do so because all commenters here except those made by maybe three of us don’t even profess to having contact with the type of beings I refer to, therefore the only experiences you have to go by is what other people tell you, whether that information is correct or not. You have no choice but to guess while taking only the information shared with you and measuring that against only discovered knowledge from what you think is reality’s totality (this universe). People like Ted even mock the idea of there existing much more, but in reality that’s like a bacteria that cannot see our world commenting on it
Messenger,
Are you talking about EVP? I have some experience with that as my dad is involved with it in a big way. He often speaks to ‘beings’ and tells me about parallel universes and quantum physics.
Whilst I was a jw I overlooked it all as I felt it was related to the ‘god of the air waves’ but acknowledged that it gave my dad a great deal of comfort. Nowadays, im very open-minded towards that sort of thing without actively pursuing investigating it personally.
My dad believes in God but never has nor never will be a JW.
If you say you communicate with other beings then I’ve no reason to doubt you. There’s a whole lot of things we don’t understand. Just because we don’t understand it or haven’t experienced it first hand doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not true.
Imgonaburn
I don’t know what EVP is or what your father was involved in. I’ve read some scientific info on parallel universes and also read about other dimensions or other universes in the Bible and in scientific papers. I don’t claim to communicate with beings from those places. What I claimed is that I was contacted by something from those places that I believe to have been God or a representative from him. The contacts are not ongoing. Like happened with many of the Bible characters proof was provided to me that the contacts were supernatural, because they do not have any type of natural explanation. Often Bible characters saw a detailed future or a vision or actual being that was present during the contact. Both things happened to me.
Messenger,
In an earlier post you said the plain and simple message of the Bible is that God desires to help people,
not kill them. You mention Revelation 3:10 indicates the
great tribulation and is a time of tests. You said a huge number of people come out of it alive – those who accept Christ during that testing period. I was wondering if you could explain how you came to this conclusion. The commentaries I’ve looked at indicate it is going to be a very tough time, even for people with faith, they might even lose their lives. Do you have a different view of this scripture because you have been contacted? I’m open to the idea of beings we cannot see, so if you’re willing to explain, I’m willing to listen.
Jennifer
Jennifer
I remember hearing from you before but not enough to remember background information about you. I don’t know how familiar you are with the Bible, so if you don’t know where some of these points that are stated in the scriptures are, and you wish me to tell you I will. For the most part I don’t usually list a lot of scriptures here, because I believe people interested in God can only benefit by seeking him which requires a sincere search. (See Prov 2:1-6 a scripture often quoted by JWs) Nevertheless if you want exact citations on these points you listed I’ll cite them with a name label and quote Rev 3:10. If you have a Bible you can look those up. My views are not formed only by these isolated scriptures, but these do express those thoughts.
[In an earlier post you said the plain and simple message of the Bible is that God desires to help people,
not kill them. You mention Revelation 3:10 indicates the
great tribulation and is a time of tests. You said a huge number of people come out of it alive – those who accept Christ during that testing period. I was wondering if you could explain how you came to this conclusion.] Jennifer that is your quote and request. I’ll answer below.
[God desires to help people, not kill them.] See John 3:16,17. Many other scriptures show that same thought I stated..
[Revelation 3:10 indicates the great tribulation and is a time of tests]
It reads, “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world that is going to test those who live on the earth.” NIV
Since the bible only speaks of two trials that come upon the whole world because of God, one was the flood, the other is the great tribulation ending in Armageddon
(see 2 Pet 3:5-7), then since the flood already occurred Christ had to be referring to the GT at Rev 3:10. The scripture claims it would be a time of test. I just repeated that claim I didn’t originate that thought.
[You said a huge number of people come out of it alive – those who accept Christ during that testing period]
Again that’s what the scriptures say. I just repeated the thought. See Rev 7:14-17.
As a teacher I’ve given thousands of tests. I’ve never given any test to any person because I wanted to see them fail it. I want them all to pass. So I retest those who fail after giving them a chance to restudy. Doing so I’ve found a very high percentage pass. If I want people to pass doesn’t it make sense Christ does also. That’s what the Bible message is and that lesson is obvious to people who understand the scriptures. The opposing view makes no sense at all. Why would God not only create us but also communicate with us if he just wants to kill everyone? The commentaries that claim it will be a difficult time and many will die are correct about that. Revelation describes the situation. But nowhere in any scripture is there an indication that any faithful to Christ will die during that period. That is pure speculation on their part. I’m not sure if all Christians that are acceptable to Christ will be spared this test and are those mentioned in Rev 3:10 or there will be some that are acceptable who remain on Earth to go through it. All Christians I know of except JWs believe all acceptable Christians will be removed to be spared from this testing period. That thought is inferred in other scriptures but not explicitly stated as to the complete number, so I don’t have a view on it one way or the other.
Hi Jennifer,
Just some points which you may find to be of interest regarding the book of Revelation:
– Apocalyptic literature has been found throughout the Middle East. The first examples of this theme is found in the ancient writings of Babylon and Persia. According to theologian and author Tom Harpur,
“…….. Revelation itself…is really a Christian version of the Mithraic apocalypse ‘Bahman Yasht.’……. the latter has the same drama drawn out as in Revelation and that all ancient Parsee or Persian sacred books referred to the original scriptures as apocalypses.” ”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5a.htm
@Jennifer cont’d:
The book of Revelation was rejected by:
Martin Luther, generally recognized as the founder of Protestantism.
Dionysius of Alexandra, c190 – 17 Nov 265, a Catholic Bishop.
John Calvin, the founder of Presbyterianism.
Erasmus a Protestant scholar.
Eusebius, the most influential person involved in the compilation of the New Testament canon.
To this day, Orthodox churches do not use Revelation for scripture readings during worship.
Revelation was finally accepted into the official canon, but only after four centuries of controversy over its authenticity.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5d.htm
http://www.jwstudies.com/Why_Does_WTS_Accept_Christendoms_Scriptures.pdf
TS, if I am wrong, at least I can say I lived a decent moral life, one I can put personal pride in, one which my children and grandchildren can respect, and one which my ancestors can respect. They can all examine my life and say: he lived by principles he believed in. He made our family proud.
What I see as important is that we can live with the choices we have made. My choices are not the same as your choices, as your life is probably very different to mine, and you as a person are very different to me. Just as I have a good or bad feeling for my grandparents depending on their ways or their choices in life, I hope that my descendants will find something to honour in me.
As compared to my wife, who has abandoned me and our son, not renewing my spouse visa (thus causing me and our son to leave her country), jumped into bed with some Muslim guy in her country in Asia, had a baby to him with no interest in marrying that guy or even living with him (thus creating a scandal in her Christian village), just wanting a baby (registering the baby with only her details, no details for the father). Hopefully, her descendants will wonder what powerful stuff she had been sniffing.
I’m sorry for what happened to you. Your ex-wife is obviously a dog. However, with all due respect, you seem to be regurgitating the pat answer that has been fed to you by the Watchtower Babble & Tricks Society. “At least I know I will have led a clean, moral life, etc”, followed by a horror (“whore”) story about someone who had the ‘gall’ to leave “yahweh’s” organization. Fact is, there are many folks (myself included, I hope) who somehow manage to live decent, honorable lives without adhering to an endless list of redundant, superfluous rules & regulations laid down by an ancient tribe of goat-herders & a modern cabal of 7 old farts down in New York, USA. Frankly, I find it hard to believe, without the hope of Paradise/Resurrection/Eternal Life, that most JWs (many of whom ALREADY live rather sleazy, questionable lives) would just “keep on keepin’ on” the same old grind of “study”, field service, meetings, living “clean, moral” lives, shunning, no blood transfusions, etc, etc, etc. If I recall, even Superchristian Apostle Paul wrote something to the effect of, ‘Without the Resurrection, what would be the point of all this? – I (Paul) too would just “eat, drink, & be merry.”’
So … What if u r wrong?
Hi Ricardo.
First of all, let me say, I’m sorry to read of the breakdown of your marriage. I sympathise with you and hope you find someone else to share your life with.
It’s hard to think of a life spent alone. It’s a good job you’re not a JW and gay eh? I’m not being sarcastic I’m just saying the cup is half full and things will get better for you if they haven’t already. Stay positive x
Your comment about being able to look back on your life and say ‘…I lived by my principles and led a decent moral life’ etc is something I used to say to myself as a jw whenever I had doubts or found myself thinking ‘what if it’s not the TRUTH?’ At the time it felt like a balm and eased my troubles. Which, of course, was exactly why we were told to think that way. I used to think if I live for 3 score year and 10 and Armageddon still hasn’t arrived at least I won’t have caused anybody harm and tried my best to live a good life and please God etc. Before I became a jw I was ‘worldly’. My boyfriend at the time was a violent psychotic bully. I was getting drawn into a culture of drug abuse and petty crime. So, in my case, I could also reason that my becoming a jw probably saved my life. Tbh it probably did. I remember standing on the platform during circuit assembly and district assembly telling everyone my story and hearing thousands of fellow JWs applauding the marvel of my experience. I felt blessed and grateful to have been chosen by Jehovah. Many of my worldly associates from my former life back then went on to become heroin addicts and a large number of them are now dead. My cup is half full too! The only thing that prevents my cup from running over is that I left the religion to support my gay son and (long story short) as a result of that my daughter has shunned me. She had a baby boy by her jw husband last year and I’m not allowed to see him. Her husband is (imho) a control freak, I know one of those types of men when I see one! He can’t stand me, mainly because he’s a control freak and doesn’t like any of my daughters friends or family.
My question to you is -How can any jw/Christian who is actively shunning their close family tell themselves that ..’at least I’ve done no harm’..or..’at least I’ve stuck by the principles that I believe in’ when sticking by those principles causes so much pain and heartache? Someone mentioned an upcoming study article earlier that instructs cong members to remain steadfast in their decision to quit associating with non repentant wrongdoers who have fallen away. I agree with op it’s NOT normal to treat loved ones that way!
I know from your previous comments that you don’t agree with the whole shunning thing but if there are aspects of your religion that you disagree with then can you really say that you’ve been true to yourself and stuck by your principles? I have first hand experience of the pain that this religion causes to families when someone chooses to leave. I cannot go back, even if it means I get to see my only grandchild, because to do so would be akin to condoning their shunning behaviour! That’s principles for you eh? They would be convinced that shunning me brought about the results they were promised! It’s a horribly cruel devious lie!
I remember I also used to kid myself into thinking if everyone in the world was a jw the world would be a better place. No more war. No more crime. An end to immorality etc. How naive!! If the whole world was populated by JWs it wouldn’t take too long before half of them weren’t speaking to one another!! Suicide rates would increase for sure…is that going to be how it is post Armageddon? What about people who are resurrected that disagree with the GB? They are shunned so completely by the survivors that they do themselves in out of desperation or capitulate and are forced to subject themselves to whatever rules are imposed then? Maybe the population self regulates by the ones that don’t ‘fit in’ ending their own lives? I know I’m digressing but it’s only just occurred to me to question what the possible outcome might be post apocalypse? A 1000 yr reign is a long time spent reaching perfection when you’re being shunned.
Ricardo, You know that JWs are guilty of causing such pain to others, you acknowledge the shady cover ups implemented by the GB. Why do you continue to go to meetings? Why can’t you continue to read your bible and put faith in Jehovah yet no longer be included in the annual report of JWs? Don’t get me wrong, I respect the fact that you still believe in the Bible and love Jehovah, I would never presume to say you are wrong to do so, I just don’t get why you would remain a member of the cong if there are practises that you disagree with. Please don’t be offended as it’s not my intention to upset you. I’m happy for all who still have a faith and hold scriptures as sacred. I’m not interested in theological debate and have no desire to argue the toss over interpretation or who is right/who is wrong about doctrine. If it makes you happy that’s fine by me. I just don’t get why anybody would come onto a forum like this, say that WBTS has got it wrong but still cling to the religion.
Randy,
IMHO, the fact that Lot was saved from Sodom’s destruction by God’s angels (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19) and also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8) is a clear indication that Lot’s actions were sanctioned by God.
Hi Dee2,
Hmm… did the site duplicate your post? In any regards, I replied above.
Cheers,
-Randy
Lot was saved from destruction for what purpose?to father two boys{now he has 2 girls and 2 boys,but we never hear how they continued on ,as the girls said there was no one to care for them.Pregnant and isolated in the mountains..
Don’t forget Abraham, who was from Ur of the Chlamydians I believe. :D
OntarioNB, except for Abraham and his family who were just over the hill and I wonder where did Lot’s daughters get all that great wine that they got their dad drunk with when they were living in a cave?
@ twistedsister69
dee2’s comment to Randy is a perfect example of the type of guessing I told you about which is occurring on this site. Notice that in it dee2 claims the fact that a future Bible writer was referring to Lot as righteous, and the fact Lot was saved out of Sodom “is a clear indication” according to dee2 that some action Lot performed was sanctioned by God, even though in the account dee2 referred to no statement or indication is made that God approved of Lot’s actions. Notice how dee2 is not honest enough to present her claim as an opinion but instead it “is a clear indication-” as if a fact. People who teach this way are either illiterate in the area of reading comprehension or dishonest. My opinion is there is a lot of dishonesty happening here, and this is why I have that opinion. The two that make these type of comments most frequently quote a lot of Bible scriptures. Because of that they are probably familiar with scriptures that discount their claims. Here, let me refer to a Bible account to discount this one claim from dee2. But first note that you’ll see in her posts that she often takes this approach to state her opinions as factual representations of what the Bible means and sometimes even claims what it says based on such an approach. That is the exact tactic the Watchtower uses to teach people misinterpretations of scripture.
Abraham had the habit of presenting his wife and half sister to strangers as only his sister, because he was afraid that men might want her. Future Bible writers claimed God considered Abraham righteous like Lot. However from the account Bible readers know God did not approve of Abraham’s action because God stepped in and acted himself after Abraham did that to prevent a bad outcome because of Abraham’s action. Chances are dee2 is familiar with this and other Bible accounts that prove that her reasoning here and statements in other posts is faulty. She and others from this site constantly claim God approved of the actions of other people when it is not stated in the Bible that he did. And their comments are often based on faulty reasoning, and sometimes misinterpretations. But they use a lot of scriptures, possibly a as pretense to be experts to the uninformed.
OK Messenger,
Please tell us then:
For what actions was Lot considered favourably by God so that God sent angels to save him from Sodom’s destruction (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19)?
For what actions was Lot also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8)?
dee2
I’ll answer, and if you really listen you might benefit. In answering your question I’m repeating what I’ve said on this site many times. But I’ll do that (repeat info) as I also do every day I’m at work. And I realize repetition is a necessity in learning, both to understand and to remember. In the following paragraph I’ll answer you.
Without going back to the scriptures and re-reading what comments those make about the character Lot my recollections is that Bible scriptures do not indicate why God considered Lot righteous. And it’s possible the only reason other Bible writers claimed he was is because he was saved out of Sodom, but that I don’t know for sure without a re-read. God or his representatives contacted those writers and may have told them things only partially written. So those writers could know God’s reasons not stated in scripture. But that does not give anyone today any ethical authority to take liberties and claim things are there in those writings that are not, e.g. that God approved of Lot getting drunk and sleeping with his daughters.
The tactic to add thoughts to scriptures and misinterpret scriptures by adding meaning to those is one of Watchtowers primary teaching tactics. That along with claiming and getting followers to believe it is God’s only Earthly channel of communication is one of its strategies to hold congregants.
Messenger,
Now after all of that,
For what actions was Lot considered favourably by God so that God sent angels to save him from Sodom’s destruction (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19)?
For what actions was Lot also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8)?
This is why I don’t get into discussions with you dee2, because you like to talk about what you don’t know and assume. I don’t. That point you asked for is not stated in scripture. And that I can claim that without a reread as the scriptures do not have much information about Lot. Does everything need be spelled out just because the book is the Bible? Though obviously not why your compulsion to make things up by assuming as in the past when I demonstrated from about 6 of your posts that’s your habit. It’s not worth my time to read all yours now and go through that process again like I did. Especially since the last time showed that my posts went unanswered. This one incident should suffice for your readers this time. Like I said nowhere in Bible scriptures is it claimed Jehovah approve of Lot sleeping with his daughters or getting drunk. Why don’t you share what scriptures do say about getting drunk?
Also, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a document that tells everything about every word in it. Have you? If you can find one most of its statements must be explanations or definitions. The closest things I’ve seen like that have been legal contracts which the Bible is not.
@Messenger,
There are instances in the Bible where incestuous relationships are merely described
and no comment made about those involved.
However in the case of Lot, a moral judgement was made about him. Lot was said to be righteous and just (2 Peter 2:6 – 8). Angels were also sent to save Lot and his family from Sodom’s destruction (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19).
It may have been a different situation if no moral judgement was rendered.
What’s more, God was not silent in this story. He passed judgement on Lot’s wife by turning her to salt for her turning around and looking back. Yet there is no condemnation in the Bible of Lot for offering his two daughters to be gang-raped or of his daughters for having sex with him. Looking back was considered a more serious sin than rape or incest, a stark contrast to today’s moral standards.
There is no elaboration of any kind related to Lot’s offering his daughter’s to be gang-raped.
Did Lot call the authorities or try to reason with the crowd, suggesting that rape is not okay? No. Instead he offers his two virgin daughters for the crowd to do whatever they want with them. Any moral person, or father, would have physically fought to safeguard his daughters from mass rape. I’m sure if his guests were moral people, they would have fought too. Safeguarding male adults at the expense of (virgin) daughters can never be the right thing to do.
It could be argued that God did not command Lot to offer his daughters to be gang-raped but later in 2 Peter 2:7 – 8 God condones and endorses Lot’s actions by calling Lot just and righteous.
Further, the daughters could not have believed that there were no men in the world. They had just come from Tzo’ar where there would have been plenty of men. Abraham, their great-uncle and company were situated about a day’s walk away.
Also the chances of two conceptions by two women on successive nights is very slim so some have concluded that it’s much more likely that these pregnancies were the result of repeated incestuous activity.
These considerations have raised questions about who the actual incest perpetrator was – was Lot the perpetrator and his daughters the victims?
The Bible is held up as the best moral code, so what kind of morals could one derive from this story?
dee2
This is where your reasoning is faulty.
First here’s one of your quotes above.
“It could be argued that God did not command Lot to offer his daughters to be gang-raped but later in 2 Peter 2:7 – 8 God condones and endorses Lot’s actions by calling Lot just and righteous.”
First what do you mean it could be argued God did not command Lot to offer his daughters to be gang raped? It doesn’t have to be argued, why argue something you’re pulling out of the air. I could see no purpose in you doing that except as some diversionary one for the sake of getting people in an argument, or to deceive, or possibly just faulty reasoning skills on the part of the yourself as the presenter. Your thought is not in scriptural print. In a similar way neither is your other thought in print, that God sanctioned Lot’s actions.
Name one person in the Bible, except Christ, that had all their life-long actions sanctioned by God. There is not anyone like that yet God considered some righteous, and you know it. Probably the reason you centered on this disgusting account is because it is disgusting. I remember in one of your past posts that you claimed this account demonstrated not only Lot’s and God’s ethics but also the ethics and morality of others inferring Christian morality. The fact is the things you infer are far fetched. “If a blind man follows a blind man they’ll both fall in a pit,” “Let the dead bury the dead.” Christ
Again this tactic of dee2 is a WT teaching tactic. While WT claims itself to be an authority, and it quotes other sources it believes its readers will accept as authorities, WT weaves in thoughts and ideas into written scriptures that could be logically reasoned, but are in fact false fabrications of the truth.
Christ claimed, “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” In that statement Christ could have meant being set free from a lot of things. One of those things is probably from lies, since lies are untruths and the opposite of truths. I suggest all readers be careful about many comments offered here. WT tactics are sometimes used and often repeated by those users.
Messenger,
– There was ample opportunity for God to state that Lot’s actions were disgusting:
God was not silent in this story. He passed judgement on Lot’s wife by turning her to salt for her turning around and looking back. Yet there is no condemnation in the Bible of Lot for offering his two daughters to be gang-raped or of his daughters for having sex with him. Looking back was considered a more serious sin than rape or incest, a stark contrast to today’s moral standards.
– Where were Lot’s moral actions when it came to safeguarding his daughters? Shouldn’t that have been a priority for him just as safeguarding his guests was? Lot was willing to safeguard his guests at the expense of his daughters:
Did Lot call the authorities or try to reason with the crowd, suggesting that rape is not okay? No. Instead he offers his two virgin daughters for the crowd to do whatever they want with them
– There was no objection from the Bible or God, only an endorsement of Lot, so what valuable life lesson are we supposed to learn from all of this given that the Bible is held up as the best moral cose?
If God had endorsed Lot but condemned his offering his daughters to be gang-raped and his incest with his daughters, then perhaps we would not be having this discussion.
There was endorsement, condoning of Lot but no objection to his questionable actions.
Your patience is astounding, messenger. You’re a marvel of belief.
It’s logical that if God is ok with the carry-on with Lot and his daughters but turns the guy’s wife into salt for doing a simple human thing like looking back at a disaster, there’s hardly a greater sin than disobeying God, not even for the simplest things.
This whole Lot thing demonstrates the mindset of the age when women and children were disposable chattels and this example of the treatment of all of Lot’s females would have been acceptable back then but this carries over into religions today. Just look at WT’s placement of women in society and their handling of child abuse. They’re suppressing women as much as they can get away with in todays society, but if they could get away with more, you bet your bottom dollar they’d be trying to emulate biblical examples. Is that what we really really want? The bible is the blueprint of how god wants us to be, if not, what?
This supposed turning into salt is another control mechanism used by the writers of the bible and their purpose is to frighten people into unquestioning belief and it still continues today. We’re talking about a time of widespread ignorance, illiteracy, superstition, uncertainty and fear. Rumors, exaggeration and chinese whispers. Those people would believe any bloody thing. A child of today would be able to perform a simple card trick and woo that crowd.
If we’re in a situation that God didn’t want, and he can see the future, somethings wrong with his communication skills. Seems to me he has no problem lifting heavy weights…..but he doesn’t think too well.
But anyway, you’re ‘a bloody good guy’
Indeed outandabout,
God must be a poor communicator. It is all so simple. If God had endorsed Lot but ALSO condemned his questionable actions then there would be no debate.
It was important for God to condemn Lot’s wife for looking back but it wasn’t important for God to condemn Lot’s questionable actions.
This is definitely a story about
the low status of women.
Evidently the biblical author didn’t feel Lot’s questionable actions were unreasonable enough to warrant comment because of the low status of women.
There is condemnation of Lot’s wife but no condemnation of Lot’s questionable actions, no elaboration of any kind.
Allowing one’s daughters to be sexually assaulted by multiple rapists appears to be treated as a minor transgression. This confirms the idea that women were second class citizens in the Old Testament, their bodies could be traded like produce.
Sorry for being off topic, but I wanted to share with you that one of my heretical friends just got disfellowshipped for apostasy. We told him to follow the example of the elders and just lie, and Geoffrey Jackson at the ARC and just lie. But unfortunately like many rank and file, he couldn’t bring himself to lie, and so when asked if he agreed with the Bible teachings as explained by the organization, he felt he needed to be honest and so said he didn’t. I guess now he can comment on sites like this with absolute freedom.
Which heretical friend will be next? Will they also be unable to follow the example of our leadership and lie? Will the bullet in the back of the head be coming for me?
And TS, thanks for remembering me.
Similar to the witch trails of Salem, Massachusetts. Ricardo why don’t you change your site name here if its not already a Pseudonym? JWs have spies and some probably read this site.
If I was asked I’d tell them what I thought also. I would not say WT teachings are correct evaluations of Bible writings. I’m not a moron, and simple reading comprehension skill is all that is needed to know WT makes up scriptural meanings, doctrines, and the relationship of Bible scriptures to a God approved lifestyle.
Take care buddy!
Got me letters mixed above mate.
trails should be trials
Rick,
You clearly have some previous traumatic history with gay men that has somehow made you think that ALL homosexual men are participants in orgies and they are ALL rapists. Why do you say things like that? It totally undermines everything you say! Heterosexual men (and women) engage in orgies and rape too so does that make every sexually active person on the planet a deviant in your opinion?
Hi Ricardo,
[Sorry for being off topic, but I wanted to share with you that one of my heretical friends just got disfellowshipped for apostasy.]
Sorry to hear about this. The initial separation from the faith can be rough. No doubt your friend will appreciate your support. If he can find an online or offline support group that can help.
Good for him to maintaining his personal integrity… “The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity.” Prov 11:3
Take care,
-Randy
Personally I believe Schillner Rick’s comments are meaningful and that those often contain a lot of truths. His ability to assess the reasons why people act as they do I think is more developed than that ability is developed in most of us, maybe even than in all of us. You can decide to accept so called nice people, some who while posing to be nice lie through their teeth whenever they think it benefits them over Rick, who appears to tell no lies but can be harsh at times, if you choose. I’d sooner hear someone who does not lie, even though he sometimes speaks harshly. And Rick’s insight into human behavioral characteristics I believe is beneficial.
Many of you who don’t even believe in God spend most of your time here arguing why a god you don’t even believe in did something you don’t even believe that he did. Rick’s comments address the true nature of your problems, those you’ve had with Watchtower, a lot better than any of you do. Almost the only one here that comments on the true nature of your problems is Schillner Rick. That might be why he calls you liars. Why not discuss the true cause and nature of your problems?
Messenger…Rick needs to sort put his own ‘human behavioral characteristics’ before commenting on anyone else’s. That way, someone might at least listen to him and give credit where it’s due.
I doubt anybody deliberately lies on here messenger. What would be the point? Surely, nobody seriously has anything riding on their opinion here, do they? Misunderstandings do occur, of course, and that’s all I see.
outandabout
I believe one point Rick claims is that when you claim God did anything that adversely affected you then you are a liar about that. Your problems come from your own actions or those of other people not God. And as for dishonesty, most of the discussions, but not the written articles, usually center on what Jehovah has done to hurt people, and those comments are by people who don’t even belief Jehovah exists. Trying to sidestep that reality by claiming its not what you meant does not make it so. If you said it, you meant it, unless you lied about what you meant. Rick’s truth is that you need to put the blame on yourselves. And he’s correct. For example, Ted is still talking about the UN being represented by the beast of Revelation, and therefore the WT is guilty because it joined the UN. Even though Ted does not believe the Bible. I could see the WT being guilty of false teaching or hypocrisy but nothing else because of that belief. Because if the Bible is not true, the UN is not represented by anything there. And more generally, if the Bible is not true why don’t you talk about where all problems originate and exist, on an unreal god or people? That’s the heart of the hypocrisy here.
Hi rich
People do care about you and value your opinions. If I was your mum I’d support you. Take care brother and stay strong. I’m off to bed to get some much needed sleep. Night night x
Rick
I know the Bible is true and that Christ is also. I was just commenting on the hypocrisy of people here who don’t believe Bible claims about either and yet spend months or possibly years here arguing what a god they don’t believe in did to them or other people. I guess being a JW has certainly gotten their panties in a wad. Notice how these folks only center their hatred on one god they claim does not exist, Jehovah, and one book, the Bible. Even though people in our day are chopping off heads in the name of Allah they have nothing to say about that. Here’s a descriptive metaphor, ZOMBIE CHRISTIANS!!!
Just 1 thing B4 I start my rant. Messenger, u accuse Ted of behaving like a bacteria commenting on a world it cannot see. Yet, isn’t that exactly what U r doing???
OK, once some bonehead on the internet told me that John Lennon died for me. How did this happen, u ask? Well, I made some offhand comment that the Beatles were slightly overrated, and this person flipped out. I may also have mentioned how Lennon was a wife/girlfriend-beater, and this sent this particular individual through the roof. After graphically describing to me exactly how they wished I would burn in hell, they stated that John Lennon died for me, & I didn’t appreciate it. OK, so I tell this story to illustrate how anyone is capable of making himself/herself believe just about anything!!!
…Which leads me to my next point. I’ve watched the History Channel series “Greatest Tank Battles” on YouTube. By far, the bloodiest battles took place on the Eastern Front – Stalingrad, Kursk, Moscow. I couldn’t help wondering, Why were the Germans willing to take SUCH a beating? After being so bloodied, so severely “schooled” by the Red Army, why not pack up the Eastern Front & go home, using remaining forces to fight in the West? Then it hit me. THEY COULDN’T GO HOME. Their entire existence had become tied to the idea (delusion) of dominating the world & ridding themselves of all “undesirables” (such as, for example, the “inferior” Russians). They had nothing else. Without fulfilling interests, pursuits, even HOBBIES, the human mind gravitates toward sick, depraved ideas & behavior. Just like the body. If u live a healthy, active life, u can walk through the junk food aisle at the supermarket without being tempted. But if the body is not healthy, that junk food will be calling out to it, it will CRAVE the BAD stuff, the GARBAGE, the POISON. Just like the Law of Atrophy. Like Daniel Craig (007) said in “Skyfall”, “Everyone needs a hobby.” When I was a kid, every mall had at least 1 or 2 ACTUAL hobby shops. Not anymore. Today’s generation lists their hobbies as “walking along the beach”, “going to the movies”, “listening to music”. Sorry, none of those activities qualifies as a hobby. Historically, it seems societies that didn’t have a whole lot going on, decided that they could create their own “Utopia” by conquering other peoples & exterminating all the “undesirables”. It’s a familiar pattern. Just look at the Khmer Rouge, who believed they could create a Communist Utopia by eliminating the educated class – intellectuals, teachers, professors, scholars, etc – brutally murdering 1-3 million of THEIR OWN PEOPLE. Well, I haven’t heard of any long lineups at the Cambodian Immigration Office. & what about the Viet Minh & Viet Cong, who were absolutely convinced that by uniting North & South Viet Nam & eliminating all resisters, THEY would create a Communist Utopia. They fought savagely for years against the French & Americans, absorbing phenomenal punishment, & finally got what they thought they wanted. Again though, I don’t see people ‘round the world clamoring to get into the People’s Republic of Viet Nam. It’s the same old routine of promises, lies, deception, manipulation, coercion. In the end, what would the Nazis have done if they succeeded in taking over the world? No doubt they would have turned on each other, because that’s exactly what Nazis do! Like Imgonaburn’s post-armageddon scenario where half the witnesses are shunning the other half. Then down to quarters, eighths, sixteenths, etc, etc, etc, until no one is talking to anyone, and the “Perfect Society” crumbles. But people who have nothing except to pursue a “Utopia” which exists only in the mind, tend to stick until the very end. The Nazis did not leave the Eastern Front until they physically HAD THEIR A$$ES HANDED TO THEM. That is why I believe most Witnesses would drink the Kool-Aid if ordered to. They would be MORE terrified of facing the VOID that would be left if they DIDN”T drink it.
Just 1 more thing – speaking of “Greatest Tank Battles”, I love this crusty old Russian tanker who was interviewed. (BTW, infantry troops sometimes rode into the battle area on top of the tanks.) He said, “We could see the German tanks approaching. On top of each one there were 20 or 30 Devils – all of them drunk as shoemakers!” lol
twistedsister69, your comment was so apropos to the Society in comparing how once a person has invested his whole life into wanting to live in the paradise earth, they can’t just walk away from it, especially when the organization they have joined in has everyone convinced that the “undesirables” are nothing but garbage or vermin like what Hitler did when it came to turning a whole country into killers. He was a good speaker and was able to manipulate millions of people to do his bidding.
Society is like that. It is almost next to impossible to be the one that will stand up and tell the king that he doesn’t have any clothes on because they don’t want to get their heads cut off or in the Watchtower society, lose every friend they ever had and even their own families when all those people look at you like you are the crazy one. After all, if they can see the king has clothes on, then it must be you who are the crazy one because you can’t see those clothes. To Watchtower, those clothes are invisible but they can see it with their “minds eyes” and so it must be real then and we have to be crazy because we actually want to see some kind of proof, not just wishful thinking.
I also enjoyed imgonnaburn’s comment and all the time I was reading it, it reminded me of the electric fences we had on our farm to keep the cows from wandering out onto the road and getting hit by cars driving by. That is the way the “utopia” of the “new world” will be like. You will be fenced in with electric fences supposedly to keep people safe from the evils of the world but have you seen those videos of cows who have been kept in the barn all winter and how they jump around like children when they go outside in the spring after being cooped up all winter?
They jump up and down like little kids at the play ground or have you ever seen those videos of dogs kept for breeding and they are rescued and go outside in the fresh air for the first time and they can’t even walk around without being scared of the sunlight?
That is kind of utopia that Witnesses are looking forward to without thinking of all the billions of dead bodies they will be walking over first and not thinking of how are they going to get electricity when all the electric power plants are destroyed and nobody to run the sewage plants to get rid of their poop when they flush their toilets and the toilets don’t flush anymore and how are they going to get around with no more cars with no gas to put in those cars because all the people who made those cars and who produced the oil and the gas are dead on the ground and how are they going to heat those houses with nobody to produce the electricity to heat those houses and on and on.
They don’t think.
If they would just gave it some thought for once in their lives be brave enough and strong enough to stand up to all those around them and would bring up those questions to anybody else at the Kingdom Halls, they’d be told not to question it but it’s their lives that they are losing now for that dream and what is a person’s life worth?
We only get one chance at it and it is priceless so it’s worth asking, isn’t it?
It’s got me thinking about the ‘New World Order’.
I was under the impression that all of the millions- no BILLIONS of people ressurected would be brought back to life in paradise with a new mindset. That they would have a miraculous epiphany upon taking their first breath of new life, with an added appreciation for the ransom sacrifice of Christ. They would be so overcome with gratitude at being given a second chance at life that they would be willing to do whatever God requested of them! But, wait…what?? If there is to be a resurrection of both righteous and UNrighteous people it’s likely that some will still not want to accept Gods laws.
I used to think that these ones would change over the course of the 1000 year reign and adjust their personality to fit in. Now I find that really hard to believe!
I remember it being a grey area and hearing bros/sis bandying theories about such as…if they continue to rebel against Jehovah then they will grow old and die again…or Jesus (as ruler) would do away with them during his 1000 yr reign to prevent them from impeding the growth to perfection of those that choose righteousness. Surely, if that’s the case, why would they even get a resurrection?? Wouldn’t it already have been proven prior to Armageddon that mankind ‘can’t govern himself independently from God?’
It just leads me back to wondering why Jehovah didn’t just kill Adam and Eve before they had any children and start again?? If a baker bakes a loaf of bread with a dent in it wouldn’t he just discard the imperfect loaf and start again with a dent free perfect tin?
All of this suffering, all of these wars and diseases, the whole messed up thing could’ve been avoided.
It’s a very human attribute to become so locked in a way of thinking that one has to press on to the bitter end instead of questioning whether your thinking process is flawed. If humans like Hitler we’re so dogmatic that they had to be utterly defeated rather than back down can we attribute this attitude to God too? Are we made in Gods image or are we trying to cover our own mistakes by saying God is like us??
I don’t get it? Maybe there is a God but we know nothing about him other than how men have decided to portray Him.
Maybe we’ve got it all wrong? Maybe God is real and our reward is commensurate with the love we show for our fellow man- and not measured by how closely we follow any so called Holy Book.
Why are people arguing about interpretation of scripture when it might just come down to how well we treat others.
I have to say I find all this ping pong between believers and non believers tiresome. Be kind to one another! Stop with the cutting personal remarks and respect each other even if you disagree! Don’t be angry or frustrated if others don’t share your personal viewpoint. You’re hurting your own selves and won’t succeed in changing a person because, as discussed, people will fight tooth and nail to defend what they believe in. Let it be.
It’s only my opinion but I think people are missing the point here. If you love God, then love Him. It doesn’t matter if your neighbour doesn’t love God the same way that you do. It doesn’t matter if they don’t believe in God at all. Just treat others the way you would have them treat you. If people were kinder and respectful of their neighbour then it would be a whole lot easier to believe in God. Just my 2 pennies worth.
X♥️X
One more thing on the resurrection. If this is to occur prior to the end of the 1000 year reign then how can any resurrected person be tested in the same state of perfection that Adam and Eve enjoyed? Are they to be shunned or disfellowshipped for not being righteous enough? How could that be described as paradise? How is that satisfying the desire of every living thing?
If all resurrected ones remain on the paradise earth for the full 1000 years, reach perfection and then an undisclosed number as many as grains of sand still get destroyed when Satan is released what does that even prove?? That given free will people will always have different viewpoints? It. Makes. No. Sense.
Just live and let live. Do no harm. Be kind.
Imgonaburn,
Another absurdity about the resurrection is that, according to the WT, everyone won’t be resurrected at the same time. The resurrection will be done in phases so that the Armageddon survivors will be able to make adequate preparations to welcome back the dead, given that the number of Armageddon survivors (~ 8 million JWs) will be much less than the number of persons who will be resurrected.
This will therefore mean that the JW Armageddon survivors will have the full 1000 years to grow to perfection but the resurrected will have less than 1,000 years to do so with the time span varying depending on when each person is resurrected. So I guess some persons will be more perfect than others LOL.
Imgonaburn,
[“…….why Jehovah didn’t just kill Adam and Eve before they had any children and start again??”]
Excellent point.
If God could almost wipe out everyone human being during the Flood & plans on destroying all non-JWs at Armageddon (~ 7 billion) then why not just destroy Adam & Eve until he got the perfect couple as per your baker/bread analogy.
I’m sure there would be less collateral damage, less pain & suffering etc etc as you mentioned. But I guess God likes drama too.
@Imgonnaburn, I don’t expect Messenger to stop being a believer but I think I have every right to point out what the Bible has to say when it comes to describing Jehovah without being told that I am lying or don’t have reading comprehension like he keeps doing when any of use the Bible.
I am hoping that when I use those scriptures that maybe new ones might come onto this site and will look up those scriptures even though I know messenger will not do it and hopefully more and more people will actually look them up and be as shocked as I was when I saw them for the first time without Watchtower glasses on.
Religion only holds power over people if the people let them hold that power and all religions use their holy books to do it and if those holy books are proven to be written by men and not by any god, those religious leaders will lose their power and prestige.
That is my goal. I am sorry if it seems tiresome to you, but to me, it’s really important that people see Jehovah for what he really is and not what they think he is so they will walk away from Watchtower and not be afraid of that religion anymore and it’s god.
I am not trying to get people to be unbelievers. As for me, I am an agnostic. I don’t know how we got here either and as complicated as life and the universe is, it does seem like we were intelligently made but I don’t know how or if it happened but as for the Bible god Jehovah, I believe that that god was of human origin but if anybody has any solid evidence other than the Bible’s word for it, I am all ears and will become a believer too.
Hi Caroline,
I agree, you have the right to reply and ask questions. I also agree that you messenger shouldn’t stoop to name calling.
On a personal level, I’m not ready to have another delve into scripture. Idk if I ever will be tbh. The JWs have put me right off it. I’m sorry if I offended you. I didn’t consider that others might be interested in seeing scriptural inconsistencies to help them decide if they should stay or leave the religion. If they do then you have given them plenty of suggestions
For me it was never a factor in my decision to leave. It just hit me that the practises of JWs are not good. Their rules on shunning and disfellowshipping – once you’re on the receiving end of them -are not there to refine us. They only serve to punish and humiliate and destroy families. Setting aside all the scandals re child abuse and UN involvement the whole shunning thing finished me. I reasoned that a religion that claimed to be the only ‘true religion’ wouldn’t enforce such cruelty upon its members. That’s not from God! What’s more, if it were I wouldn’t worship a God that demanded such fealty.
Then other things came to light and I lost my faith in the religion entirely. It wasn’t really a scriptural issue for me. I was stumbled so I am weak or I was stumbled because THEY are not true Christians. Either way the end result is the same.
Maybe one day I will examine scriptures in support of my leaving but right now it’s not necessary for me to do that.
Xx
Iamgonnaburn, no offense taken and I am glad you can understand why I keep coming back with scriptures.
What really opened my eyes was when I decided to take the book of Exodus apart and write notes on every scripture because of Acts 7:43 where Stephen said that the Israelites were worshipping Moloch in the wilderness for 40 years.
I remember how shocked I was when I got past the ten commandments found in Exodus and telling my husband about how slaves and women were to be treated and he didn’t want to hear any of it. I am sure I had read those “commandments” before but my eyes were opened. Finding out about the U.N. and 607 B.C.E., the real history, the lies about the cross and especially how the elders deceived our congregation out of $7,500 to send to the Society when their loan had been paid off and deceived the congregation by not reading the other 3 pages of that letter when the Society had said that congregations didn’t have to repay their loans but other congregations who had their loans paid off were to asked to keep sending in that amount every month anyway was the thing that sent me over the edge.
By that time I was fully awake and had taped the Thursday night meeting and when the elders came over to my house to find out why I wasn’t going to meetings anymore, I had brought up 607 and the U.N. and told them about how they had deceived the congregation like that and I asked our presiding overseer who I had known for almost 50 years how he could sleep that night, knowing he had tricked the congregation out of $7500 and into paying off a loan they had already paid off and his exact words were “I slept like a baby that night”. Even my fully indoctrinated husband was shocked by that response by him.
If I knew then what I know now about the Bible, I would have so many answers for them when they came over. I would have put them on the defensive and not let them be on the offense like they were when they came over here.
It wasn’t until after I left, is when I first really became acquainted with the Bible, like I should have been all those years that I was a J.W. I was totally ignorant of the Bible as I am sure probably almost every single one of them are also that are still in it.
Hi Caroline,
I’m glad you were not offended. I do enjoy your comments and usually agree with what you’ve said. My bible knowledge isn’t good tbh and under other circumstances I would not have said that all this bible based discussion is tiresome.
I hope you understand that given my own experience with having to make a decision about my view of homosexuality and in turn my view of the bible I could feel that we missed an opportunity here.
This article has attracted nearly 1000 comments! As the mother of a gay son it would have attracted my attention during the time that I needed support and encouragement to ‘do the right thing’ and stick to my son. When I needed to choose to leave the religion in favour of my lad i visited a different website to this. The comments were similar to those here. Mostly pointing out that the bible condemns homosexuality. The last thing I needed right then was to be told that!! I already knew! Needless to say I stopped looking to ex JWs for support then. It made my struggle to leave much harder. I desperately wanted to speak to other JWs that had faced the same circumstances! People who have no experience in being a JW don’t really understand what being in a high control group is like. Sure, you can find plenty of parents who have gay kids that are not JWs and get support there but it’s not the same.
Many ex JWs/Christians still believe that sexuality is a choice and will shout it out loud if needs be. We’ve seen here that some use hate speech and vulgarity when talking about homosexuality.
This article was an opportunity to help people who were in the same or similar position that I was in 5 years ago. The comments have let them down. Yes, there have been some good comments but most (my own included at times) have gone off topic. That was the reason that I started to find it tiresome tbh.
If I were seeking help about the subject matter of this featured article I would have given up! I would have skimmed through 900+ comments looking for a kind word and found maybe a handful. Nowadays I wouldn’t have needed to read them all but back then I would likely have read page after page out of desperation. I would’ve abandoned this site too, and that’s a shame because I have learned a lot here and really benefitted from information shared and comments read.
I understand that commentators are hoping to achieve a goal but the people that would’ve perhaps benefitted most from a kind word about the videos featured have been overlooked. I know because I’ve lived through it. It was an opportunity missed imho.
If I were a moderator I wouldn’t have allowed a number of the comments posted to appear and I would request that any new comments stay on topic without referring to the rights and wrongs of sexuality.
Hi Iamgonnaburn. There are countries where homosexuals are killed to this day and I blame that on religions. When people are convinced they are the only ones speaking for a god, they think they are doing god’s will by treating homosexuals as if they have committed a crime against god. That is why I keep encouraging anybody who still thinks it’s a crime against God to be a homosexual, to actually read their Bibles and hopefully they will find out that the Bible is not inspired of any kind of perfect and merciful god and not be so hateful of those people who they can’t and will never understand unless they are walking in your shoes or your son’s shoes.
I have lost all my family and “friends” who are still in the JW religion and am all alone in my small town since I was a Witness for 50 years and as all of know, we were not allowed to have any “worldly” friends.
My husband died last year, that is why I am alone and when I see those so-called friends and they can’t run away from me, they speak to me as if they are looking the devil straight in the face but in my heart, it is me that feels sorry for them because they are the ones losing out in life but not me anymore. I am the happiest I have ever been since I left the Witness religion.
My only son got married last year and my husband of 49 years died last year and when I told my future daughter-in-law that I didn’t believe in the Bible through an email, I was excluded from their wedding and my son has cut off all communication with me but I could not pretend to believe in something to keep on their good side but unlike you and your son, my son did not stick up for me and went along with his fiance’s wishes.
I am so glad you did the right thing and stuck with your son. I know that if it was my son that said he didn’t believe in the “truth” anymore that I would never have done to him what he’s doing to me.
A lot of the comments here are terrible and not helpful. I agree with that but since it’s had so many comments and counting, you can see it’s a very hot topic. If it didn’t get hardly any comments at all, to me that would be even sadder because it would look like people don’t care that much.
People make crude comments because they lack empathy and most fundamental religions do that to people who don’t believe the same as they believe.
They think they are the only ones who are “true” Christians and it says they are not humble and if they really believed in the Bible like they say they do, they would realize that pride goes before the fall and according to the Bible, God hates arrogance and pride.
Hi Caroline,
I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your husband. I have no idea how that must feel. Of course I understand why you often refer to the bible. Please don’t feel like you are alone.
If you want to pm me my email address is bibytybobyty@gmail.com
I do have a good relationship with 2 of my children. Neither of them are jw although they were raised in the religion. The 2 that are married and still JWs don’t bother with me although since I issued my husband with the ultimatum of it’s me or the religion (he chose me!) one of them is making an effort. I do question his motives though as it could be an attempt to sweeten me up so my husband could return to Jehovah. We shall see how that all pans out in time.
I hope that people will check their bibles and learn from your wisdom.
Lots of love
Imgonaburn xx
Caroline. I forgot to say that you did the right thing too. I’m glad you are happier out than in.
I told my own children that shun me that I would NEVER do that to them if they were in my position. I’m hoping that my son does as he says he will and thinks about what he’s done. As I said, he seems to be making an effort and will on rare occasions message me. He’s been to see his dad and has been pleasant with me. I hope my daughter will one day follow suit. But as you say, I too cannot go back to the meetings just to maintain contact with them. How would they ever realise how wrong shunning is if we did that. Stay strong my friend x
Thank you so much Iamgonaburn for your encouragement. I ran across a video last night and even though the guy’s language is really bad with the f word, he explains really well exactly what I am trying to say about religion and preachers.
https://youtu.be/swdzmkOmAa8
Imgonaburn
Several points.
First no one here cares about the belief of others on this site. But according to your request, that is to stop the name calling of other people (believers or nonbelievers) then I guess its alright with you that people can name call God but not humans. Does that fit with your morality, because I didn’t see an outrage on your part against that? To be sure, that’s not the position Christ took or his father. Nor is it the position they take today. Read the scriptures you’ll discover that. I’m not going to spoon feed scriptures here to others as some do.
Second point. WT claims to have a literal interpretation of the scriptures. That’s only true if the word literal has also taken on the connotative meaning of figurative which it hasn’t. WT’s interpretation of scripture is the most biased I’ve heard; how else could it apply all those ancient historical accounts and prophesies to it as an organization in the 20th century. Therefore WT’s interpretations must be all correct or all wrong, since it claims it speaks for God as his only spokesman and claims it has a literal interpretation of scripture. So, if WT is wrong, which is obvious, then while holding onto its teachings you will never understand Bible scriptures.
Start looking at most of the scriptures literally as most Christians do for a more accurate understanding. And realize this logical point: because Christ expressed some thoughts as allegories or metaphors he will not kill you forever if you fail to obey WT and believe WT’s interpretation of some thoughts as metaphors that other Christians don’t accept but interpret as literal,even if WT is correct about some of those points . Remember when Christ told the assembled crowd they must drink his blood and eat his body. Christ’s concern was that they follow him, not whether that crowd knew he used metaphors or not. That’s his same desire for you, that you follow.
Messenger,
If people on here were speaking about God in the same way as some speak about homosexuals then I would take issue with it.
This site primarily focuses on Jehovah’s Witnesses as the name suggests. A lot of people who visit these pages do so because they have been isolated from their former friends and from family because of the practices of the jw religion. Nobody is likely to visit this site because they are outraged about the rights and wrongs of Islamic religion or other world religions.
Leaving a high control group like jw is extremely hard for most and what they are seeking is support and the courage to take the necessary steps to break free as painlessly as possible. Granted, some may be seeking scriptural proof that JWs have got it wrong. They may want to arm themselves with theological arguments to prove to family members that what they are being taught by the GB is incorrect. However, we all know that if you confront a jw with ANY line of reasoning that what they’ve been taught about the bible could be false, you are going to face being shunned or dfd. At best, you may be marked as a bad associate by the individuals that you try to flip. I never used scriptures against my family in an attempt to justify leaving because in my case I knew it wouldn’t work and I’d’ve lost them sooner than I did by just saying I don’t believe any more.
I can only speak from my own experience, the same as everyone else here. I have to say though, if I were new to this site I WOULD NOT think I’d struck gold! Rather than agreeing to disagree about the validity of the bible you argue and dismiss others as stupid if they have a different viewpoint. It’s counter productive!
The whole topic of this post was about how JWs judge homosexuality. The article featured videos produced by the GB that in the current world climate are politically incorrect. Now, you can say the world has gone mad and political correctness is ridiculous but for an organisation that is trying to depict Jehovah as a merciful, loving God then the JWs are failing. Yes, I know you’re not a jw and don’t hold to their teachings etc so that may sound like a mute point to you.
The point I’m trying to make is this- if this forum exists to help others make their own decision about whether they leave JWs or not it is detrimental to engage in petty argument about anything!
I haven’t called God names, I’ve only said that the Bibles description of God portrays him in a negative as well as positive light. I haven’t demanded scriptural proof of Gods Goodness because I still see value for some in having some sort of faith and don’t need proof of that. I personally, am still not ready to consider that Christianity is the way to go. I dk if having faith requires a person to belong to ANY religion.
This website isn’t about proselytising. If I had viewed some of these comments years ago when I needed encouragement to stay strong and be there for my gay son I would have shaken my head in despair!! Schillers comments have been disgusting but I think he’s unwell and has had a difficult life so I don’t take it personally. We all have one thing in common and that is the disappointment/disillusionment we have felt at the hand of the Jw religion.
This article gave us the opportunity to support other people who might have had difficulty with the homophobic stance of the JWs and rather than that happening we’ve had prob 900+ comments that have done nothing to help people in that position!! I consider that to be a big fat shame! It should never have been used as an avenue to beat others down with scripture.
Does anyone doubt the fact that the Bible condemns homosexuality?? No!! But the fact that it DOES has caused many people to question whether the bible is truly inspired by a God of Love. Myself included.
If you’re not reading derogatory posts about God here you must not be reading all the comments you claim to be Imgonaburn. And regardless of what the site articles are about commenters here usually resort to those types of comments as their primary comments. Truth is always the best response.
TS
You might have taken that bacteria comment as an insult, but consider what I actually said, not part of what I said, and you might realize it wasn’t but instead a literal fact if what many people claim happened to them is true. And no it is not what I have done in any of my comments here, but it is what you just demonstrated above in yours. What I said is that you people have no experience at all in many of your claims except that you express your feelings about something you have no experience with, so you step over to commenting like the bacteria would about our world as you profess that what you know nothing of is not true, that it is a fantasy.
Forget about what you believe or what you feel about your belief for a minute, and listen, and you’ll probably understand my point. If Christ is really who the Bible claims he is, and if thousand of other humans factually had experiences with beings from the dimensions Christ came from and went back to, then only those individuals have any personal experience with something you cannot have any knowledge about, except what knowledge you accept or reject about their experiences. If what they claim is factual your attempting to discount that with the general population’s knowledge without accepting the input of this group is like a bacteria trying to describe what exists in our world. To take insulting shots at these folks is what was done to Christ and the prophets, just as it occurred that they were not believed. People back then rationalized reasons not to believe based on the knowledge they had at that time, just as you do with the knowledge you have. Look at all the effort dee2 put into coming up with information about the brain in her attempt to do so which proves nothing if these experiences are what people claim. My point is that any information a person can come up with that does not factually apply is like a bacteria thinking it knows about our world.
I know God exists. He does things for his own reasons, so those not stated in the Bible I don’t want to be dogmatic about. But I guess one of the reasons he does not revel himself to everyone as dee2 asked is because that would not accomplish what he’s doing. The fact that Christ performed miracles somewhat supports that. Christ also said that even if someone was sent back from the dead others would not believe. From reading the scriptures and observing things I think God is teaching us, I think we’re here to be taught and to choose. The bit about satisfying justice with a sacrifice I don’t see in the scriptures, and I think that thought is fabricated just because Christ died and his death was a sacrifice. His death was a sacrifice and it was seen in advance, but the Bible makes no claim it was for the purpose of satisfying justice as WT does. Its just Christ’s messages saves when followed, that’s the Bible message. Those other sacrifices by Jews just pointed to the one of Christ and possibly also were ordered to demonstrate the barbaric nature of people. Remember other prophets and Christians were killed also.They were sacrificed as Christ was for following God, not to satisfy justice, but instead because many people were asses.
messenger says:
TS
You might have taken that bacteria comment as an insult, but consider what I actually said, not part of what I said, and you might realize it wasn’t but instead a literal fact if what many people claim happened to them is true. And no it is not what I have done in any of my comments here, but it is what you just demonstrated above in yours. What I said is that you people have no experience at all in many of your claims except that you express your feelings about something you have no experience with, so you step over to commenting like the bacteria would about our world as you profess that what you know nothing of is not true, that it is a fantasy.
Forget about what you believe or what you feel about your belief for a minute, and listen, and you’ll probably understand my point. If Christ is really who the Bible claims he is, and if thousand of other humans factually had experiences with beings from the dimensions Christ came from and went back to, then only those individuals have any personal experience with something you cannot have any knowledge about, except what knowledge you accept or reject about their experiences. If what they claim is factual your attempting to discount that with the general population’s knowledge without accepting the input of this group is like a bacteria trying to describe what exists in our world. To take insulting shots at these folks is what was done to Christ and the prophets, just as it occurred that they were not believed. People back then rationalized reasons not to believe based on the knowledge they had at that time, just as you do with the knowledge you have. Look at all the effort dee2 put into coming up with information about the brain in her attempt to do so which proves nothing if these experiences are what people claim. My point is that any information a person can come up with that does not factually apply is like a bacteria thinking it knows about our world.
I know God exists. He does things for his own reasons, so those not stated in the Bible I don’t want to be dogmatic about. But I guess one of the reasons he does not revel himself to everyone as dee2 asked is because that would not accomplish what he’s doing. The fact that Christ performed miracles somewhat supports that. Christ also said that even if someone was sent back from the dead others would not believe. From reading the scriptures and observing things I think God is teaching us, I think we’re here to be taught and to choose. The bit about satisfying justice with a sacrifice I don’t see in the scriptures, and I think that thought is fabricated just because Christ died and his death was a sacrifice. His death was a sacrifice and it was seen in advance, but the Bible makes no claim it was for the purpose of satisfying justice as WT does. Its just Christ’s messages saves when followed, that’s the Bible message. Those other sacrifices by Jews just pointed to the one of Christ and possibly also were ordered to demonstrate the barbaric nature of people. Remember other prophets and Christians were killed also.They were sacrificed as Christ was for following God, not to satisfy justice, but instead because many people were jerks.
If the story’s true, which is highly unlikely, then Doubting
Thomas was the smartest of the of the 12. Extraordinary
claims require extraordinary proof, (For the invisible realm
inhabited by gods and demons the evidence is zilch.)
If Jesus had commended him for requiring evidence, instead
of praising blind faith, then maybe fewer people would be
suckered into joining orgs, like WT. Doubt is the best
defence against the con.
Hi Jennifer,
Just some points which you may find to be of interest regarding the book of Revelation:
Apocalyptic literature has been found throughout the Middle East. The first examples of this theme is found in the ancient writings of Babylon and Persia. According to theologian and author Tom Harpur, “…….. Revelation itself…is really a Christian version of the Mithraic apocalypse ‘Bahman Yasht.’……. the latter has the same drama drawn out as in Revelation and that all ancient Parsee or Persian sacred books referred to the original scriptures as apocalypses.”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5a.htm
Some more on the ancient origins of the apocalyptic themes in the book of Revelation:
Check out the parallels with the Apocalypse of Zephaniah from the same period – the author of Revelation was reusing then ancient images with current Jewish apocalypticism:
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/85776/apocalypse-zephaniah-rev-comparison
dee2,
No, I didn’t know Revelation took four centuries to be accepted into the canon. Thanks for
taking the time to post all that information. I do enjoy history.
Jennifer
Jehovah please we need positively at least ONE resurrection BEFORE Armageddon to show these liars that billions will come back to life to expose them as liars. (Not that all the dead coming back don’t have their lies with them too. BUT your way as you want it seems to be the beauty of the whole 6000-year death plan. No one can claim to have preached the whole truth and nothing but the truth.) before the 1000 years is over, YOU will see the hetero population return to God’s 6000-year plan that procreation can be done without perversion, nor preFlood intrusion by angels. And all those sexless resurrected will also be shamed and see it can be done. GOD is not taking the blame for creating penis and vagina which will always exist for the dying replaced animals.
So I guess, Rick, that if our penis is for procreation only, you have never masturbated? According to your line of reason, masturbating would be a perversion in the eye’s of God. Are you a hypocritical pervert, Rick? – 99% of males masturbate and 1% are liars. Are you a pervert, a liar, or both.
I notice you are very quick to label anyone who disagree’s with your point of view as ‘liar’s’ and ‘haters’. This is a result of WT training. They teach you to react that way because that’s how they want you to view people who put forward logical questions to you. Cults hate logic and they want you to view these people in a most unfavorable light. It’s obviously worked very well on you.
@Jennifer cont’d:
The book of Revelation was rejected by:
– Martin Luther, generally recognized as the founder of Protestantism
– Dionysius of Alexandra, a Catholic Bishop
– John Calvin, the founder of Presbyterianism
– Erasmus another Protestant scholar
– Eusebius, the most influential person involved in the compilation of the New Testament canon.
– To this day, Orthodox churches do not use Revelation for scripture readings during worship.
Revelation was finally accepted into the official canon, but only after four centuries of controversy over its authenticity.
@Jennifer cont’d:
The book of Revelation was rejected by:
– Martin Luther, generally recognized as the founder of Protestantism
– Dionysius of Alexandria, a Catholic Bishop
– John Calvin, the founder of Presbyterianism
– Erasmus, a Protestant scholar
– Eusebius, the most influential person involved in the compilation of the New Testament canon
– To this day, Orthodox churches do not use Revelation for scripture readings during worship
Revelation was finally accepted into the official canon but only after four centuries of controversy over its authenticity.
@Jennifer cont’d:
Millennialism was rejected by the early church as heresay:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5d.htm
http://www.holybooks.info/revelation.html
“The Woman’s Bible” by Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1898)
@Jennifer continued:
The book of Revelation was rejected by:
Martin Luther, generally recognized as the founder of Protestantism.
Dionysius of Alexandra, a Catholic Bishop.
John Calvin, the founder of Presbyterianism.
Erasmus a Protestant scholar.
Eusebius, the most influential person involved in the compilation of the New Testament canon.
To this day, Orthodox churches do not use Revelation for scripture readings during worship.
Revelation was finally accepted into the official canon, but only after four centuries of controversy over its authenticity.
@Jennifer cont’d:
Revelation was rejected by quite a few people – Martin Luther, Eusebius et. al.
To this day, it is not used in worship by the Orthodox churches.
Millennialism was rejected by the early church as heresay:
– http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5d.htm
– http://www.holybooks.info/revelation.html
– “The Woman’s Bible” by Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1898)
@Jennifer cont’d:
– The following is a critique of the book of Revelation by Earl Doherty, the author of the “JESUS PUZZLE”:
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/supp11.htm
– “A History Of The End Of The World” a book written by Jonathan Kirsch, is an evaluation of how the book of Revelation has significantly influenced history and the modern world, it discusses such topics as how it was nearly cut from the New Testament, the role of the book in the fall of the Roman Empire, and its use in the establishment of foreign policy.
– The following is a discussion about the mythology of the seven headed dragon in Revelation 12:
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/85470/growing-old-dying-on-paradise-earth?size=20&page=1
******CORRECTION:
Ooops, wrong link!
The mythology of the seven-headed dragon of Revelation 12 is discussed here:
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/68098/skinny-on-leviathan-rahab-monsters
@Jennifer cont’d:
The following is a discussion about the origin of the symbolism of the number 7 in the book of Revelation:
http://www.holybooks.info/revelation.html
http://www.humanreligions.info/seven.html
@Jennifer cont’d:
The mention of “seven seals” in Revelation seems to be influenced by the “seven seals” which have symbolic significance in Judaism. This article discusses the likely origin of the “seven seals” in Judaism:
http://www.academia.edu/1509428/The_Seven_Seals_of_Judeo-Islamic_Magic_Possible_Origins_of_the_Symbols
___
Some of my other comments are awaiting moderation.
These comments are about
– the rejection of Revelation by Martin Luther, Eusebius et. al., to this day, it is not used in worship by the Orthodox churches
– the rejection of Millennialism by the early church as heresay
@Jennifer continued:
The book of Revelation was rejected by:
Martin Luther, generally recognized as the founder of Protestantism.
Dionysius of Alexandra, a Catholic Bishop.
John Calvin, the founder of Presbyterianism.
Erasmus a Protestant scholar.
Eusebius, the most influential person involved in the compilation of the New Testament canon.
To this day, Orthodox churches do not use Revelation for scripture readings during worship.
Revelation was finally accepted into the official canon, but only after four centuries of controversy over its authenticity.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5d.htm
http://www.jwstudies.com/Why_Does_WTS_Accept_Christendoms_Scriptures.pdf
@Jennifer cont’d:
Millennialism was rejected by the early church as heresay:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5d.htm
http://www.holybooks.info/revelation.html
“The Woman’s Bible” by Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1898)
@Jennifer cont’d:
The mention of “seven seals” in Revelation seems to be influenced by the “seven seals” which have symbolic significance in Judaism. You can google the following article by Lloyd Graham which discusses the likely origin of the “seven seals” in Judaism:
“The Seven Seals of Judeo-Islamic Magic: Possible Origins of the Symbols”
____
Some of my other comments are awaiting moderation.
These comments are about
– the rejection of Revelation by Martin Luther, Eusebius et. al., to this day, it is not used in worship by the Orthodox churches
– the rejection of Millennialism by the early church as heresay
@Jennifer,
Some of my other comments are awaiting moderation.
These comments are about
– the rejection of Revelation by Martin Luther, Eusebius et. al., to this day, it is not used in worship by the Orthodox churches
– the rejection of Millennialism by the early church as heresay
– the origin of the “seven seals” mentioned in Revelation
Jennifer,
Please note that some of my comments are awaiting moderation.
These comments are about the rejection of the book of Revelation, the rejection of Millennialism as heresy, the likely origin of the “seven seals” mentioned in Revelation.
Jennifer,
Please note that some of my comments are awaiting moderation.
Right Caroline, will it be the “New System” or back to the Stone Age? (The New Sh*tstem lol)
What will the Great Army of Window Washers be doing then? Digging latrines no doubt. All the windows will have been shattered anyway. Drop that squeegee & pick up a shovel Fella!
PS ….. No more cushy office or bank jobs either folks, ‘cause there won’t B any more offices or banks!!!
Sound thinking Imgonaburn, Yeah he’s got more info on us
than the IRS. “Reading Hearts” round the clock surveillance
it’s like a dystopian nightmare, with that ability the book seems
surplus to requirements .
Hope the IRS doesn’t acquire that skill, it would send a lot of
good Christians into panic mode, no kidding!
Hi outandabout,
You made an interesting comment about your mother not noticing the lovely things around her but rather the taxi with the mesh to separate. How sad but true the Witnesses have been conditioned/brainwashed into looking for any evidence as a sign of how terrible things are.
When we were still going to meetings every public talk became the same old same old, spending 20 of the 30 minutes telling us how awful things are and only having about 10 minutes left to pick us back up. In our area, I kid you not, I would guess at least 85% if not more of the talks start like that. I felt so out of place because I just couldn’t get all caught up in all that negativity. My husband and I knew Jesus teachings were meant to be refreshing and that was not coming across. From personal experience with family members I too have seen them seeking and even hoping for more bad to support the thought that the end is imminent. I say give it up people and smell the roses that’s why God gave us a nose.
Regards
Hi eyesopened, indeed, blinded by fear. That’s the essence. It’s marvelous how it works – it’s a push-me-pull-me situation – pushed by being told they have being born sick and then commanded to get well upon pain of death and pulled by the promise of an extremely vague paradise and added to by the promise of seeing dead loved ones again. They’ve even found a use for our dead relatives! Push-me-pull-me. So transparent.
Upon the sound of approaching hooves, some people think Unicorn while others think Horses.
To anyone that finds themselves in need of support/encouragement/advice on how to come to terms with the issue of a loved one being homosexual:
Move along, you will find precious little of that nature in this comments section.
Stick with your gay loved one. Ditch the jw religion. Be kind.
If your gut is telling you it’s wrong to shun someone then listen to your instinct. There will be consequences for putting your loved one first. You will likely get shunned but know you have done the right thing. Shame the shunners not the shunned. Let your heart not be troubled.
The fact that in a 1947 Awake magazine, the WT took a swipe at the Vatican over their shunning policy calling it pagan, un-scriptural and an instrument of control, only to adopt their own shunning policy in 1952 speaks volumes. Obviously, people were starting to wake up and so the WT thought nothing of breaking up families to maintain their charade. Absolutely no morality where the WT is concerned, only fake morality, which, as it stands to reason, flows down through the ranks.
Imgonaburn,
It seems God is in your son’s corner after all so don’t mind the homophobes.
Eve was constructed from Adam’s DNA, using his rib. Eve had to be a clone of Adam. If God duplicated Adam’s X chromosome to make 2 X’s Eve would be female, but still related in every way to Adam.
However, we know that any sample of DNA from a person is specific to that person and does not change. That fact is helping to solve crimes, establish paternity and getting people released from death row. Since the source material came from a dude, Adam, then the sample would be an exact genetic match for Adam. That means that God did make Adam and Steve after all!
No no no, Dee, God does things in his own way.
Keep those comments rolling folks! Let’s hit 1000!
Watchtower sucks.
Totally.
Someone (Caroline?) made an interesting comment re: Where the @#$% did Lot’s horny daughters get the wine after fleeing for their lives to a @#$%ing CAVE??? Good point. Like when I said, How the @#$% did moses climb up & down a @#$%ing MOUNTAIN in sandals & a robe??? … I have another one (if memory serves – honestly, I don’t even care enough to look it up): I believe after naughty adam & eve (who managed to single-handedly @#$% up maybe 50 or so billion people (poor us)) were evicted from the Garden of Eatin’, yahweh (in his finite wisdom) blocked up the entrance (like it was a mall or something??? :D ) with 2 cherubim & the flaming blade of a sword. THE FLAMING BLADE OF A SWORD??? Ummm, yeah, the unhappy couple would have looked at that & said, “What the @#$% is that???” Swords had not been invented yet. Maybe ya-way looked into the future with his bionic X-ray vision & saw swords, but that doesn’t mean the evil newlyweds would have known what the @#$% it was. And FLAMING too!!! Had they ever even SEEN fire? The flaming blade of a sword would have meant NOTHING to eve & adam. They might even have misinterpreted it as an invitation saying, “Come on back in when u’re ready to apologize.” I mean, aren’t bright lights usually used to attract people to a particular location/establishment? There r so many instances where the Bible writers slipped up, it makes u wanna go, “GOTCHA!!!” LOL In TV/movie terminology, they would be called “continuity” issues. Ah, Yes, the Bible (& every other “holy” scroll) is like a painting – observed from a distance, it looks fine. But get up close & u see all the flaws.
But then, hey, I’m just a crazy, “mentally-diseased apostate”. Oh well, back to watching gay porn & torturing puppies.
PS Sorry for all the foul language. I’ll try & clean it up next time. :D
LOL TwistedS!
You’re a riot and more!
Oh those pesky little anachronisms in the Adam & Eve story! I was hoping you wouldn’t notice.
Genesis 3:19:
“In the sweat of your face you shall eat BREAD Till you return to the ground…..”
God must have been the first baker. LOL.
TS,
Apparently God was the first sword maker too.LOL.
Oh those pesky anachronisms!
@messenger
I did not perceive the “bacteria” comment as an insult. U’re constantly missing the point, messenger. & what is this “personal experience” u keep bringing up? Have u been to heaven? Have u met God? Have u met jesus? Has God talked to u? Has jesus been sending u messages? If so, what the @#$% are u doing on an internet site??? U should be writing a book, touring the world, going on talk shows, giving lectures, preaching from a mountaintop like moses & jesus!!! Either that, or seek professional help. There may B a padded room & a bowl of apple sauce with ur name on it. My advice to u is: Get a Calendar (that’s a list of courses) from ur local University / Community College, & sign up for a night class in philosophy or mathematics – something that will teach u to think & reason in a clear, coherent fashion. Personally, all this trans-dimensional “alien” stuff is freaking me out. U’re starting to sound like a Scientologist or something. That is, unless u r a genius quantum physicist who has managed to design & build a device that opens wormholes into other dimensions. U know, like my favorite movie, “Stargate” – 1994 – Kurt Russell / James Spader / Viveca Lindfors / Mili Avital – NOT the TV show or movie – the ORIGINAL theater film. “Parallels” – 2013/14 maybe – is also very good. U may still catch it on Netflix.
PS If u HAVE built or discovered a transdimensional device or stargate, PLEASE put me on ur team.
TS
Your attitude suits your Pseudonym. The info in my post is factual, stating all those on your side of the argument address something you know nothing about, yet you think you’re an expert. As far as insults, those have come from practically every regular commenter on this site. So, if you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. Insults from those on your side are ok with you are they, but those directed at your members are an abomination are those? That’s one mind set of a bigot. Check your ancestry, if you think at some future date your decedents will make this world a paradise when it’s obvious you and your relatives haven’t then you are the delusional group, for there is actually no factual information that can support that claim.. On my side of the argument factual information as I have demonstrated exists. It not being proved to you could be by design.
Sorry TS there is one mistake in my comment above. There’s so much on this site I sometimes skim read the posts I do read very quickly. In doing so didn’t process or possibly see the word NOT in your first sentence, I thought you took the bacteria comment as an insult. Nevertheless I see insults flying frequently here, though the opinions of others about me is not my concern.
Take care!
LOL TwistedS!
I’m laughing so hard as I read this that tears are flowing from my eyes. I have to try hard not to disturb the neighbours with my laughter.
BTW,
Was Stargate the movie that postulated the idea that the Pyramids of Egypt were built by aliens?
While I’m on the subject of the Pyramids, did you notice that Pyramids are not mentioned in the Bible despite the Hebrews’ sojourn in Egypt? Puzzling!
That’s because God tells us only what we need to know, Dee. God has promised to destroy all of Man’s finest achievements anyway, and God never lies, so don’t stand too close to those pyramids.