JW.org releases new homophobic video “Remember the Wife of Lot”

The Jehovah’s Witness religion has long been known for its vocal disapproval of the LGBT community. On a doctrinal level it teaches that any practicing homosexuals are sinful and deserve to die, and that very soon God will kill any such person at the upcoming battle of Armageddon.

On an everyday level, whilst it does not press for government action or laws against the LGBT community due to a strict doctrine of total political disconnection, it does directly persecute it’s own members who are LGBT by requiring them to remain celibate for life. Should any of them refuse to do so, the religion demands that they be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends, with the additional threat of shunning for any family or friends who refuse to comply.

So a JW born into the religion and baptised as a young child, which is increasingly the case, and who grows up to discover they are gay, will be faced with a choice: deny their sexuality forever or lose everyone they have ever known.

In recent years Watchtower, the organisation that controls the Witness religion, has released a large number of videos that make strong anti-LGBT statements, and this year is no exception. However, it seems that the rhetoric is on this topic escalating to a worrying degree, as Witnesses are now being instructed to become directly confrontational when encountering gays, lesbians, or others who do not fit Watchtower’s narrow view of approved sexual identities.

One such example of the escalation in rhetoric is the new Watchtower produced video drama, “Remember the Wife of Lot.”

Remember the Wife of Lot.

This will not end well.


The official webpage of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, JW.org, has just released a series of videos that will play at the religions upcoming series of 2017 worldwide conventions. One of the videos is a three part drama entitled “Remember the Wife of Lot.” It can be viewed here.

Intended to be a modern day parallel to the Biblical tale of Lot in the last days of Sodom and Gomorrah, Watchtower states on JW.org;

The warning Jesus gave nearly 2,000 years ago is more important than ever. See how Brian and Gloria learn to protect their family from the dangers Jesus warned about.

One of those dangers is, of course, the insidious and sinful LGBT community.

There are two scenes in which Watchtower’s message on homosexuality is showcased, but one of them really stood out to me as requiring more refutation than usual. Not just because of the nature of the teachings themselves; by this point I’m very familiar with the anti-LGBT message Watchtower promotes and sadly it no longer shocks me quite the way it would someone encountering JW.org for the first time. Rather it was the sheer bad manners the Witness characters displayed in the sequence that dropped my jaw.

Let’s set the scene.

Brian and Gloria are two Witness parents, whose daughter has invited some of her workmates back for a meal. One of these workmates is a girl called Tess. During the mealtime conversation, it emerges that Tess is considered to be one of the top interns at the company. The JW wife, Gloria, tells Tess that her parents must be very proud, and Tess replies:

“My Moms are both really proud of me. I was raised by two wonderful women.”

And thus begins one of the most excruciating, clumsy and crass examples of homophobic propaganda in recent Witness history.

The dinner party from Hell

Behold the official Watchtower-endorsed “Glare of Disapproval” to be deployed when encountering a same-sex family.

What happens when Tess drops this “bombshell?”

Remember, the Witness characters have been taught that homosexuality is a grave sin worthy of death at Jehovah’s God’s hands when he brings a worldwide Armageddon, which Witnesses believe to be coming soon. Any baptised Witness who is unrepentantly romancing the same-sex is required to be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends.

Make no mistake, in the eyes of the Witness characters in this scene, Tess’ parents are doing something revolting and deserve to die unless they split up, become Witnesses and either marry men or remain celibate.

However, given the fact that Tess is not a Witness and is simply responding to a passing question, it seems like the polite thing to do would be to simply move on and continue the conversation about the internship. Yet instead the Witness characters act like she’s just slapped them all in the face and spat on the table. Their jaws drop, they stammer, and the father Brian gives Tess a stern stare of anger and disgust.

Next, in a display of what I can only describe as social incompetence of the worst order, the Witness character Gloria learns forward with a concerned expression and replies in a horrified tone that she’s just found her that her assistant at work is gay.

Seriously. This is what she does. Watch the video.

Gloria’s tone of voice and expression make it sound like she’s telling everyone that her assistant is a rapist, or has highly contagious mutant space-rabies, or just started their very own Adolf Hitler fan club.

Now, quite why she would say that to a person whose has just casually mentioned they have same sex parents, and in that tone of voice, I have no idea. She’s either deliberately being atrociously rude, or has absolutely no grasp of appropriate social interaction, or perhaps suffers from some unholy and catastrophic mix of the two.

Quite rightly, Tess demands to know what’s wrong with a same sex couple, since its clear her parents are being directly insulted. Incredibly, the video actually presents Tess as being the inconsiderate, rude one for daring to speak of and defend her parents in front of the JW family. Apparently, when asked about her parents, she should have either denied the existence of her loving mothers, or edited their genders so as to coddle the fragile sensitivities of the Witnesses.

The scene continues, with another guest joining the pushback against the JW’s and arguing in support of same sex relationships. Since this is a Watchtower video, the pushback doesn’t go into very much detail, as Watchtower has never been one to give a fair hearing the opposite side of the argument. However, even by the standards of the scene itself, it’s actually the immoral and wicked people of “Satan’s world” who end up coming across as the reasonable ones, and the righteous JW “heroes” who end up looking like they possess all the tact and social grace of a pack of flatulent, drunken hyenas.

For example: at one point Gloria appears to concede that maybe gays and lesbians are born that way, but Brian quickly intervenes and squashes this idea. He gives a lecture about everyone having free will, and outlines his sales pitch for Watchtower’s interpretation of the Bible, which condemns the woman’s parents loving relationship as harmful. Incredibly, he also states that Witnesses “don’t push their religion down anyone’s throat,” despite the fact that he and Gloria have just turned a passing mention of same sex parentage into a lengthly and toe-curling excuse to harangue and chastise the child of those parents!

What if the tables were turned?

That face you make when an off the cuff mention of your parents results in a tsunami of judgemental religious sermonising heading your way.

Let’s switch this around.

Let’s say that Tess had Jehovah’s Witness parents, and that Brian and Gloria are non-Witnesses.

During the meal, it casually comes up in passing that Tess’s parents are Witnesses. Brian and Gloria react in shock, pulling faces of disgust, and then Gloria replies in horrified tones that she recently found out that her assistant is a Witness. When the other guests point out how rude Brian and Gloria are being, the couple do not apologise but rather they double downlambasting Tess about how sinful her Witness parents are, and deliver a patronising sermon to try to push their own beliefs.

Can you imagine how rude that would be?

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness reading this, I’m sure you understand how hurt and upset that child of Witness parents would feel. Surely now you can understand how hurt and upset the child of a same sex couple would feel if treated in like manner? Even if you fully subscribe to Watchtower’s teachings on homosexuality, you must surely admit that the way the Witness characters acted in this scene is incredibly obnoxious and rude. 

Yet this is clearly the way that the Governing Body wants you to treat anyone who casually mentions their sexuality or that of their loving parents. 

How do you feel about that?

Why does JW.org create these videos?

In the 2016 cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted

If you are not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you may simply pass this video off as a weird bit of badly acted, poorly written, socially backward storytelling, but I’d urge you to understand the following point:

These videos are not simply intended to be entertainment for Jehovah’s Witnesses. These videos are directly intended to be training for all Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. 

This video is directly intended to demonstrate to Witnesses how to handle a situation where a person casually mentions that they have two fathers, or two mothers. Witnesses worldwide are now expected to hassle, harass, and lecture them. Letting the comment simply go unmentioned is not on the list of options presented here, and every Witness watching the video will understand this.

If you think we’re exaggerating, in 2016 JW.org brought out a CGI children’s cartoon/instructional video explicitly encouraging young Witness children to lecture the young children of same-sex couples about the sinful nature of their parent’s relationship and the need to become Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to avoid death and gain paradise.

The video quite rightly drew worldwide condemnation, not only due to the homophobic nature of the message, but also due to the incredibly crass way it encouraged Witness children to harass their classmates and other non-witnesses in such a rude, unpleasant manner. Sadly it appears that nothing has changed at JW.org, if this latest video is anything to go by.

Now, it has to be said than many actual Witnesses will probably be far too polite to actually take the advice given here (and others might be reluctant to follow this advice from a sheer sense of social self preservation if nothing else) but nonetheless it illustrates how the leadership of Watchtower views the LGBT community and how it expects its followers to behave towards them.

Quite frankly, setting all issues of theology and the human rights of the LGBT community to one side, it appears that the leadership and scriptwriting teams at JW.org are in desperate need of a strong lesson in manners.

For a more detailed examination of the homophobia on display in “Remember the Wife of Lot,” check out the following videos and articles from JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans.

Article in the Huffington Post on the homophobic aspects of Remember the Wife of Lot

You can also watch a more detailed breakdown of the wider aspects of cult manipulation and abusive doctrine in Remember the Wife of Lot as part of this video from Lloyd Evans. The link will take you to the part of the video where the drama is discussed.

Follow me on twitter @covertfade

Follow Lloyd Evans on twitter @cedarsjwsurvey

Follow JWSurvey on twitter @jwsurveyorg

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1,052 Responses to JW.org releases new homophobic video “Remember the Wife of Lot”

  1. Miko says:

    First off, the term homophobic is wrong by definition and I cringe whenever I hear it. Phobia is a fear and most do not fear, they dislike and some even hate. From my experience, JWs do not hate Homosexuals though they uphold the viewpoint that the act is a sin. They are allowed to do that, just like other religions that have basic tenets. I saw the video and I did not get what this article describes. This was a dramatic rendering of things that happen in life. The uncomfortableness and clunkiness of the interaction was intentional because that’s often the way it happes in real life. I thought it was a nice touch for her to change her tone and almost whisper that her assistant was gay, because it can happen like that in real life. JWs are never going to support same sex marriages or homosexual activities, so stop wasting your time trying to affect a change that will never take place. The belief that the Bible and God do not change (in regard to right and wrong), will always guide the teachings. The Bible does condemn homosexuality, but I’ve never heard of any encouragement from them to mistreat folks who are. I think this whole article assigns a bunch of inuendo and personal assumption and is devoid, whether intentionally or not, of an actual representation of what their beliefs and/or intentions are. That is unfortunate and irresponsible. Also there is some weirdness in the comments section. Those of you who are on them, please take your meds! Either way I’m glad I came across this, no matter how strange it became. It shows how fundamentally incorrect information can spawn a debate that ended up completely off the rails in many cases. In the end, no resolution can come because the premise is incorrect. I consider myself an intellectual, so I appreciate the attempt.

    • outandabout says:

      Hi Miko, the WT will change when the pressure eventually becomes too great. It just takes time. They’ll do what they’ve always done and closely monitor the concerns of the flock (the purpose of Elder reports and ‘snitching’) and when it reaches a tipping point, New Light will be found. ‘Bums on pew’s’ will trump gods word every time. This is how religions have historically operated and they are no exception. Doing your homework on that will prove my point.

      • Ricardo says:

        @outandabout, I would hazard that the majority of witnesses don’t understand the overlapping generation teaching or don’t agree with it. I look forward to new light to see what the next ridiculous explanation will be.

    • Imgonaburn says:

      So…a person grows up as a jw and realises that he/she is homosexual. What do you propose they do? Suppress their desire indefinitely? Pray? Accept they are an imperfect by product of adamic sin and spend the rest of their life without intimacy? Take drugs to dampen down their sex drive and wait for Armageddon to arrive? Then spend another 1000 years awaiting transformation to hetero? Are you actually suggesting that that isn’t mistreatment?
      The only other alternative for a jw who is homosexual is to abandon their faith, lose all of their friends and family members and face destruction at Armageddon. Is that not mistreatment too?
      There was once a time when you could slip away from this religion and be free but not any more. Nowadays, if you attempt to fade you have to continue living your life as if you were still a jw or risk being shunned!!
      You clearly have no experience in what happens to a jw family when a close relative ‘comes out’ as gay. My son was never baptised. We discovered he is gay when he was about 16 yrs old. His older, married, hetero jw siblings treat him like he’s dead!! Don’t you dare try to tell me that JWs don’t mistreat homosexuals. You are very wrong!!
      I doesn’t matter how well you know your bible or how accomplished you are at piety. If you turn your back on your child because of their sexuality you are a horrible person and a sh*t parent.

      • Caroline says:

        Rick, unless you have been born “gay”, you wouldn’t know if it was choice or born that way. It is arrogant to judge. I think it is like being born left handed or right handed.

      • Imgonaburn says:

        Rick you’re being ridiculous! I haven’t fabricated anything! Your comments make no sense. When you shout ‘YOU’ at me do you really think that it was my decision that my son is homosexual?? He was raised a jw and taught that being gay is not gods way for humans. It didn’t make any difference because he is what he is.
        The fact that people have behaved inappropriately in your home shows a lack of respect for YOU. My son would NEVER behave that way (sexually fondling another man in my presence) because it’s offensive. It seems that the people you associate with don’t value your opinion or take your position seriously. There’s no excuse for such behaviour in your home. I would be equally offended if a guest in my house did that regardless of their sexual orientation. I would ask myself why they would think that was ok and question whether they had any respect for me at all.
        Why would anyone think so little of you? Maybe there’s something wrong with YOU if people treat you like that. Could it be YOUR fault that your life is the way that it is?…Reading your comments makes me wonder if religion has messed you up to such an extent that people are dismissive of you. My sense is that you are another victim of the cult of JW. Peace be with you brother.

        • Imgonaburn says:

          Rick. You didn’t realise what I did there.
          You blamed me and implied that it’s my fault that my son is homosexual because of the way I raised him. You suggested that I reinforced/ imprinted his decision process into believing he is gay by my behaviour towards him. Or at least that’s what I understood that you were saying. I apologise if I misunderstood you.
          So, I applied the same warped logic to you that you imposed upon me and suggested that those men acted the way they did because of the way that YOU behaved. It wasn’t meant to be taken literally. I wasn’t condoning their behaviour at all. I was just demonstrating how your reasoning was flawed by blaming me for things that were not my decisions to make and applying the same logic to you.
          I know the bible condemns homosexuality. I no longer believe the bible to be inspired of God. So it doesn’t matter to me what the bible says.
          I don’t have a problem accepting people who are LGBTQ. What consenting adults do in private is none of my business regardless of orientation, but I do think they should do their thing privately not publicly and not in your living room.
          My experience with LGBT is the opposite of yours. I’ve found them to be no different from any other group of people. In fact, the people that have hurt me the most have been close friends and family members who call themselves ‘Christian’.
          With love.
          Imgonaburn ♥️

        • outandabout says:

          Well done, Imgonnaburn. Nothing wrong with you.

  2. Doc Obvious says:

    In the JW Broadcasting video, “Russian Supreme Court Renders Unjust Decision!”, we see in the first few introductory comments, what is more important. Is it people? Or, is it physical things?
    According to a Governing Body member, the liquidation of physical buildings owned by Watchtower is more important than over 100,000 people’s lives are being effected by the ban. The priority that things are more important than people is what is most disturbing about this video. Compare that with what Jesus Christ was all about. According to the Gospel accounts, Jesus was more interested in people, not things. Jesus cured the common people of life threatening diseases. Jesus taught the crowds two rules to live by. Jesus raised the dead. Jesus fed the crowds. Jesus took care of children appropriately. Jesus did not have a place to live. Jesus did not own buildings. Jesus did not have material riches. Jesus did not have lawyers. Jesus gave more than received. It’s all about priorities. A physical man thinks first about physical things. A spiritual man thinks about what is more important in life. People. Not things!

  3. Ricardo says:

    I just made this comment, but it is being moderated. Can anyone tell me why? Here it is:

    I made the comment below 6 days ago, and it is still being moderated. Can someone tell me what is so controversial about it that it should take 6 days to be moderated, but Schiller Rick can make an abundance of comments which are almost impossible to follow the meaning of, but they are okay?
    Ricardo says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    June 10, 2017 at 5:44 am
    I see you have clarified that comment elsewhere, and I have answered according to what has been translated by others wiser than me. If you feel there is a problem with their translations (which in English don’t say the girl should be scourged) please explain the problem.

  4. Ricardo says:

    I tried to make a comment about a comment which has been in moderation for 6 days now, but unfortunately that comment is also being moderated. Why are our comments about being moderated being moderated, while Schiller Rick is making a whole lot of incomprehensible comments which aren’t being moderated?

  5. JWMug says:

    I suppose Biblically speaking everything, to do with sin, the Christian
    idea of right and wrong, perversions, originate with the Garden
    of Eden “story”. Surely it’s absurd to suggest that it’s factual

    The serpent was the craftiest creature “God had made”, then God
    curses the snake for being crafty, looks like hissing Sid was planted
    as “Agent Provocateur.

    Death is the result of sin, but Adam was created mortal, subject to
    death “before” he sinned,= he had to eat from the tree of life to
    overcome his mortality. So the Ransom teaching, a perfect life for
    a perfect life, looks a little unbalanced.

    if Eve was without the Knowledge. of good and evil how could she
    know the snake was evil. God knew snakey was the big threat, he
    created it and already had said what a nasty character he was.
    Why didn’t he warn his new babies about him.

    There’s much more, but a final thought. God punished Eve by
    multiplying her birth pains, but at that point she had Zero children,
    No matter how many times you multiply zero it will always be zero,
    I guess mathematics were not old yahwehs best subject.

    Eve’s punishment puts me in mind of a visit to a farm and witnessing
    a cow calving, you should have heard the groans and moans,
    it was heart breaking. What sin had poor old bluebell committed
    to be put through that,

    • outandabout says:

      It’s obvious that Bluebelll is being punished because the original cow and bull didn’t listen to the Mighty Bull of the Sky. Not hard to work that one out. Duh!

      • outandabout says:

        If we all do research on our family tree’s it will be noticed that among our ancestors there are examples of shameful human behaviour and
        also the most noble. Both good and bad traits go through our bloodlines.
        There are just so many examples of this, it’s not funny. Inherited traits are a pick and mix luck of the draw situation. Absolutely nothing can be chosen on that score.
        Scientists are hot on the heels of being able to identify inherited traits in-utero. Will the day come when only ‘nice’ people are permitted to be born and so ‘creating’ the perfect society? Are we going to beat God to it? Is this all part of His plan and does he want us to fix our own problems without him? Doesn’t any parent desire their children to eventually go it alone?

    • outandabout says:

      Ha ha ha….. people not doing as you wish, Rick? Life not working for you?

      Rick at a job interview;

      Prospective Employer – “so, Rick, how do you get on with other people?”

      Tricky Ricky – “not too good…… but it’s not my fault!”

      Peace be with you, Rick. but you’ll have to work at it.

  6. Hardy says:

    Nope, everybody…you got it all wrong… Listen to me…I’m all wise…Adam and Eve, gays and straight people, angels, men, women, adults are usually, fuse, Corn-fused after they’ve been corn holed ! Starting with Adam and Eve. : )

    • Hardy says:

      All of this made me think of my brother. He was Corn-fused and felt corn-holed after being fired from his job.

    • Ricardo says:

      Great, our sensible comments get stuck in moderation for day after day after day, but Hardy has no trouble getting his senseless comments through. Are we to conclude that senseless comments have more worth at this site?

      • Hi Ricardo,

        Several of my comments wind up flagged for moderation. Usually they show up in a day or two (sometimes more). I do believe it is automatic filtering based on key words that might indicate the poster is trying to evangelize. Usually when I make several references to the Bible it seems to trigger the moderation flag.


        • Ricardo says:

          @Randy, my comments have continued under moderation for 10 days now. I think ‘moderation’ is another name for ‘deletion’.

  7. messenger says:

    Richard Schillner,

    You remind of the way John the Baptist spoke. Your words are sharp and contain a lot of truth.

    Caroline and dee2,

    You two are hung up on words and often miss the meanings those convey in the Bible. The tree of life and tree of knowledge of good and bad were symbolic. God giving/allowing life or stopping it is part of what they represented. Whether there was anything different about the actual fruit is not the point of those stories. And Ricardo is correct, the Devil’s claim that Eve could be like God meant she could choose for herself right and wrong without suffering the consequence of death God promised to Adam if he took that course. Those two not eating of the first tree would show their obedience and respect for Jehovah, as simple as that. That’s what the story was about. Your limited application in your understanding Bible words causes you to view the Bible’s God as a kid might, a kid who constantly asks to be shown a word that is not used but defined in a document. Where does it say that? you constantly ask, because you don’t understand the words that are strung together. Maybe something blocks your understanding.

    Also, Caroline, since you did say you would hate the Hebrew God if he exists, then do you believe in him now? Or, are you still arguing against a boogie man, someone non-existent in your mind? If it’s the boogie man argument I wonder why all the rhetoric. JWs are real. I could understand your argument against them, but that argument from you is essentially nonexistent. Instead you and dee2 choose to argue against someone you claim does not exist. I wonder what motivates your behavior? What’s the purpose of your comments?

    • Caroline says:

      messenger, the god of the Hebrew scriptures is a despicable person (god) who if he was in charge of any country today would be considered a criminal in the worst possible terms, if you think about how Jehovah ordered all those Egyptian/Hebrew slaves to go into all those Canaanite cities and villages and kill every man, woman and child with swords. It would amount to millions, if you add up all the numbers.

      Didn’t any of those people fight back? If not why not? It’s all made up and if it wasn’t made up, then those were horrible people being told to do horrible things to innocent people by a horrible god. .

      There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that tells us why any of those people deserved to be murdered like they were and if they didn’t fight back, then they were even more innocent. That is the god of the Hebrew Scriptures and that is the god that Joseph Rutherford decided to name his religion after.

      You need to do some serious research into how we got the bible in the form that it’s in and who it was that decided which books to include etc. and you will come to a whole new understanding of the Bible and you will not respect it as perfect from a perfect god.

      You are blindly worshipping a god that you know nothing about. He isn’t real. He’s a figment of your imagination and all religions that like to use it(the Bible) to control people and get their money from them.

      Keep coming back here with excuses for Jehovah and I will keep posting scriptures that show just exactly what kind of god you worship and it’s ugly. I enjoy sharing them, so keep it up. I have hundreds of those scriptures that I have not posted yet and I am anxious to share them with you.

      • Ricardo says:

        Sorry for going out on a tangent here, Messenger and Caroline, but if Caroline were to take a notepad and starting from Genesis wrote down every occurrence where Jehovah displayed love and mercy, she would soon find she had abundant proof that Jehovah is not despicable.

        However, it seems that Caroline does not want to attribute any positive qualities to the God who provided us the earth to live on, oxygen to breath, food to eat, animals to enjoy as pets, scenery to enjoy the view of, or even the sun to keep us warm. How a person can refuse to show appreciation for these gifts is unfathomable to me.

        What’s more, Caroline sees it as necessary to defend the actions of the Canaanites, as innocent people. And yet a search on the internet finds the following description of the Canaanites:

        “Even by ancient standards, the Canaanites were a hideously nasty bunch. Their culture was grossly immoral, decadent to its roots. Its debauchery was dictated primarily by its fertility religion that tied eroticism of all varieties to the successful agrarian cycles of planting and harvest.

        In addition to divination, witchcraft, and female and male temple sex, Canaanite idolatry encompassed a host of morally disgusting practices that mimicked the sexually perverse conduct of their Canaanite fertility gods: adultery, homosexuality, transvestitism, pederasty (men sexually abusing boys), sex with all sorts of beasts, and incest.

        Worst of all, Canaanites practiced child sacrifice.”

        These are the type of people Caroline is defending. Why would God have his people destroy them? They were only doing what was acceptable in their society and culture.

        Caroline says: if he was in charge of any country today he would be considered a criminal in the worst possible terms.

        Really? And yet countries have been invaded in the modern world for more trivial reasons than this and yet the leaders of the invading force were not condemned.

      • messenger says:


        So, you admit to us that to you God Jehovah is not real, and yet you spend hours, and hours arguing against a boogie-man (a nonexistent person). Very strange. If God does not exist the only alternative explanation, applying your line of reasoning to those ancient acts, is that those despicable acts you refer to were crafted and carried out by despicable people, God Jehovah had absolutely nothing to do with it. Unless you also believe a nonexistent boogie-man can be nonexistent and real at the same time. But let’s assume you don’t. Then the blame for all your huffing and puffing arguments rests on people. That’s what I’ve been claiming all along. So, why don’t you admit that the perverted people caused the troubles you speak of, and that they do the same type of things today. A logical person would reach that conclusion. But go ahead with your boogie-man argument if you wish every time some others here use the terms Jehovah or Bible. Maybe those words get you excited like that name Mustafa did to the hyenas in the Lion King. But if you get rational and reach the logical conclusion then what hope do you have that these perverted people will bring about your paradise on this planet?

        One of the main purpose for schools, research, and in general studies of all types is to train the mind to think accurately and quickly. Here’s one major flaw in what WT claims. WT claims to be (God’s) Spirit directed, as the Bible states all real Christians are, but the WT claims it is not Holy (God’s) Spirit inspired. If the WT is not Holy Spirit inspired, which is obvious when critically observed, then how could it with God’s backing apply to 20th Century JWs all those scriptures which relate to ancient Jews? If those Bible scriptures that told the history of the Jews along with prophesies about them also described events taking place in 20th century America e.g. Cedar Point, Ohio (JW convention), then the only way anyone would know that is if God told them, they were inspired of Holy Spirit (God). But WT claims it has never been inspired of God.

        • Caroline says:

          messenger, I agree with everything you said above. Just as everybody thinks it is their god who is telling them to fight in a war, the Israelites did the same thing and it’s a fact that they did burn their children in the fire to Moloch. Even the Jews today recognize that fact. It is only the stupid “Christians” that take the Hebrew scriptures as fact. The Jews don’t. They don’t even believe in the Exodus story.

  8. dee2 says:


    The Bible explicitly states that the forbidden tree was a tree of the knowledge of good and evil not a tree that would give Adam and Eve the knowledge to name the animals. IN OTHER WORDS, ADAM & EVE’s KNOWLEDGE/UNDERSTANDING WAS LIMITED, IT WAS NOT ALL ENCOMPASSING. Having the knowledge to name the animals does not mean that they had moral sense.

    There were other things which Adam and Eve did not know before they ate the fruit:

    Genesis 3:7:
    “Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.”

    It is interesting that if God had already endowed Adam and Eve with the knowledge of good and evil then why did he feel that this knowledge would now be a test for them if they already had this knowledge? Why is God testing Adam and Eve on something which they already had?

    Adam and Eve’s knowledge/understanding was limited just like a child’s knowledge/understanding is limited.

    There are things which a child may know – their name, the name of their pet, for example – but does a child have knowledge of/understand the concepts of good and evil? Does a child know the difference between right and wrong? Can children who commit wrong be held morally responsible and be prosecuted?

    • dee2 says:

      ***** Why is God testing Adam and Eve on something which they already had? SHOULD INSTEAD READ:
      Why is God using something which they already had as a test?

    • dee2 says:

      *****There were other things which Adam and Eve did not know before they ate the fruit SHOULD INSTEAD READ:

      There were other things which Adam and Eve did not know until after they ate the fruit.

  9. Ted says:

    Outandabout. I completely agree, who we are, what we are,
    it’s the luck of the draw, all pick and mix. We can’t choose
    our parents, and who would choose differently anyway? Not

    It’s very short odds that in the millennia it’s taken for each of
    us to get here, that there have been many homosexuals
    related to us. I have 2 cousins one on either side of the family
    who are gay.

    As you say both good and bad traits go through our bloodline,
    This was true even in Jesus bloodline. There were adulterers,
    liars, schemers and more ( check it out), and there were also
    the good and noble. No one is in such an exalted position that
    they can slander certain ones for the way they came out the womb.

    I was going insert a Bible quote “Their righteousness is like
    filthy rags”, but on researching it, I found out it referred to
    the soiled garments of a menstruating woman, which seems
    very unfair on the ladies, as well as condemning a perfectly
    natural function as filthy, which gets us back to square one.

  10. dee2 says:

    @Ricardo cont’d:

    A child may have knowledge of certain things, however children would not be deemed as having moral sense to know if their actions are morally wrong and so would not be held criminally responsible by the law should they commit an offence as the following examples show:

    – Two children were set on fire by another child but the third child involved was too young to be charged:


    – A 5 year old was investigated for rape but could not be prosecuted as he/she was under the age of criminal responsibility:


    – Children who shoot others:


  11. dee2 says:

    @Ricardo cont’d:

    A child may have knowledge of certain things, however children would not be deemed as having moral sense to know if their actions are morally wrong and so would not be held criminally responsible by the law should they commit an offence as the following examples show:

    – Two children were set on fire by another child but the third child involved was too young to be charged:


    – A 5 year old was investigated for rape but could not be prosecuted as he/she was under the age of criminal responsibility:


  12. dee2 says:

    @Ricardo cont’d:

    – Children who shoot others:


    Moral sense/the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, is a brain function.

    Adam & Eve were not created with moral sense just like children who, though made in God’s image as you claim, are not born with it because the human brain is not a finished organ at birth, in fact, brain development is not completed until early adulthood. The frontal lobe which is responsible for cognitive functions such as planning, reasoning, decision-making skills (“executive functions”) etc doesn’t reach maturity until about the age of 25.

    Structural maturation of individual brain regions and their connecting pathways is required for the successful development of cognitive, among other functions. This maturation eventually provides for a smooth flow of neural impulses throughout the brain.

    It is for this reason that children who commit wrong cannot be prosecuted as their brains are still developing.

    It is also for this reason that brain science has been reforming juvenile justice policy and practice in the U.S.

    Lack of full brain development has led the U.S. Supreme Court to abolish the death penalty for crimes committed during adolescence; deem mandatory life-without-parole sentences for murder in violation of the 8th Amendment, and eliminate life-without-parole sentences for crimes less than murder. Opinions have started to change, providing the opportunity for reform and rehabilitation of juveniles.

    • Ricardo says:

      @dee2, discussing this subject with you is like a dog chasing its tail…we go round and round and round. Even a young child can prove loyal to a father. Even a young child can develop appreciation and love for the good things they receive from their father. Even a child can feel if their father is kind and compassionate. No matter what lack you claim Adam and Eve had, there is no excuse for their betrayal of their father.

      That they were both adults, with perfect brains, made in God’s image and therefore having a high moral sense, makes them even more culpable.

      • Caroline says:

        Ricardo, it is impossible for humans (or angels) not to think and as James 1:14,15 says: “But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin, in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.”

        The bible story of Adam and Eve has to be an allegory (symbolic fictional figures) because supposedly even the perfect angels saw the beautiful women and made bodies for themselves (sperm) and had children with them, making themselves demons.

        You have to realize that it would have been impossible for Adam and Eve to have “filled” the whole earth with perfect children who none of them would have ever sinned against God when the only “sin” they committed throughout the whole earth of mankind was eating from a tree they were told not to eat from. There are a whole lot of things humans could do and couldn’t do that would constitute sin in Jehovah’s eyes, other than just eating from a certain tree brought out in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek Scriptures.

        Think of all the things they could do or couldn’t do, like having sex with somebody of the same sex, killing people, smoking, stoning girls who can’t prove their virginity on their wedding night, owning and selling your own children as slaves to pay off your debts, burning prostitutes, boiling a kid in it’s mother’s milk, working on Saturdays, stepping on the mountain when Moses said they weren’t supposed to, making a golden calf and on and on. These are things that God said were things they could do and couldn’t do. Lots of rules, other than just eating fruit from one certain

        I know it can be hard to realize that you have been bamboozled by Watchtower and other “Christian” religions by making you think that you owe something to your “creator” because you look around and see such a beautiful earth and all the beautiful things on the earth, but that does not prove that the god of the Bible is the one or thing that made it.

        Just saying that God made it, is too simplistic.

        Think about how unrealistic that idea is that if they had not eating from that tree that they would have filled the earth with sinless people.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Caroline, Adam and Eve were given very few rules. It is amazing that you are making excuses for intentional sinners who collapsed in their support for God at basically the very first hurdle! You feel it is unfair that Jehovah took any action against them. You no doubt feel it is unfair for Jehovah to take any action against anyone.

          Thank goodness there is a God who has righteous standards and is going to bring the whole earth into accord with those standards. At last peace will have been brought to this planet.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, I love it when you and messenger comment. It shows that like all so-called “Christians”, you can’t see the forest through the trees. Please come back here with at least one scripture highlighting what a wonderful, loving and compassionate god Jehovah is.

            Jehovah didn’t give Adam and Eve “very few rules” as you say. He gave them only one rule. Do you really think for an earth full of their children that the only “rule” mankind would ever need to follow was to not eat from that one tree? Why the law given through Moses, which is over 600 rules since the importance of the rule about the fruit was only showing their obedience to Jehovah?

            Do you believe that if the Jews could follow all those rules from Moses, that that would have been all that was ever needed to the end of time for a perfect world? How about if it was you who was born into a family of slaves? Do you think that would have been a fair law to you then? How about if you were the girl that couldn’t prove she was a virgin on her wedding night? Do you think she would have thought it was a perfect law if you were a virgin and it was you that was being stoned to death by the elders?

            Those are just a couple of the “rules” that Jehovah came up with in addition to the not eating the fruit prohibition. There is absolutely nothing about those laws that was perfect.

            If you cut off a person’s hands when they steal, you are right in that it would be a deterrent to stealing, that’s for sure. But what if you were accused of stealing when you didn’t steal anything and you got your hand cut off? What about the girl who was stoned because she didn’t bleed enough on her wedding night?

            The Adam and Eve story is an allegory showing why
            men think about death and animals don’t worry about it and don’t have a conscience when they kill other animals to feed themselves. That is all it is. It is just an allegory but millions of girls are being punished each and every day because people are too stupid to see that Adam and Eve never existed. That is the crime of the Bible and fundamentalists like you.

            I remember when I was going to meetings and how the talks would make fun of people who didn’t believe the Adam and Eve story, including some preachers and now I have to say that I was the stupid one for believing it when I never took the time to pick it apart like I should have if I was willing to die for that book of fairy tales and possibly let my child die for it.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Caroline, have you started taking that list of all the good things Jehovah has done for mankind? If you have, you probably have written down what is mentioned in Matt 5:45: God makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

            Why do you ask such trivial tasks, and yet when we answer you with what you request you never accept it. You take us like fools; not Messenger, he simply stops playing your games.

            Then in your comment you suddenly went on a tangent about rules. How strange. If Adam and Eve were perfect, their perfect children would have had no trouble following all the laws given to Moses, as only a perfect person could obey them perfectly.

            What are you moaning about? You seem to be always complaining about something that God has done wrong, while never giving him any credit for anything he does right. Why not show a bit of appreciation to our creator? I have given you encouragement and reasons again and again and again. Nothing God does seems to be good enough for you, and He is perfect.

            What next are you going to complain about?

          • Jennifer says:


            How would Adam and Eve’s perfect children ever come to be under mosaic law?
            As for berating Caroline for moaning, haven’t we all listened sympathetically to your complaints about the elders treating you like roadkill? Maybe you should show some appreciation for Jehovah’s loving elder arrangement.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Jennifer, you have decided to carry the flag for Caroline, have you? That is very heroic of you.

            You ask me about A&E’s children being under the mosaic law. It wasn’t me who introduced that idea, but Caroline went from talking about the rules (or rule, in her opinion) given to A&E when they were perfect to the hundreds of rules given to the Jews. Here are her words:

            “Those are just a couple of the “rules” that Jehovah came up with in addition to the not eating the fruit prohibition. There is absolutely nothing about those laws that was perfect.”

            ‘Those laws’ she refers to were part of the mosaic law.

            I was keeping the conversation on topic, which was talking about the rules given to A&E. I don’t quite get where Caroline came up with just one rule for A&E, or why suddenly we were off topic onto other things, like the rules given to the Jews.

            So the obvious answer to your question is that A&E’s perfect children would never be under the mosaic law, but if they were they’d be able to obey it perfectly. If they stayed faithful.

            If you have found some value in the elder arrangement I would be very encouraged to hear it. Personally I have never found it to be any use at all, and if the arrangement was done away with I think the organization would fare better.

            What makes you think that the elder arrangement as implemented by WT is Jehovah’s loving elder arrangement? I find no proof Jehovah is involved with it at all, nor have I found it loving.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, I have not moaned even once about Jehovah. All I have ever done is show you scriptures from your own bible what kind of god you worship. If it seems like moaning, then it’s your fault because you are not reading those scriptures and only pretending to know anything about the bible.

            I have figured out a long time ago that you and messenger are only playing devils advocate and know absolutely nothing about the bible and that is why you can not even once come up with just one scripture showing us what a loving and compassionate god Jehovah is, while I have shown you scripture after scripture what an uncompassionate and unforgiing, murderous god Jesus said he was.

            Don’t give us any scripture from the Greek text which says that Jehovah is good. We need something from the Hebrew text and we don’t need any scripture that says that to look up and see the stars and then know that it was god that made it. We need something from the Bible that shows that he is loving and forgiving and compassionate.

            The fact that we have the sun and rain does not make Jehovah the one that “made” it and that does not make him a loving and compassionate god.

            Come up with scriptures please or I know that you are only blowing wind out of your butt and displaying your ignorance when it comes to the bible and god you revere and worship.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Caroline, you indeed are a wonder. After fulfilling your request to come up with a scripture, unfortunately it is not a scripture to your liking. And after saying something like this in previous posts-“what a despicable god Jehovah is”- you then say you are not moaning about Jehovah. It seems that when Jehovah is mentioned all you can do is moan.

            I hope you have your notebook ready to write down some more of Jehovah’s compassionate actions. I would recommend Psalm 78 to see quite a list of ways He has shown mercy. Let me mention some of them, let’s start at verse 13: Jehovah saved the Israelites by splitting the Red Sea, He split rocks for them to have fresh water in the wilderness and also provided them with manna, he forgave their error and did not destroy them as a nation, instead set them a place to call their own in Judah where their centre of worship was.

            So, let’s go over that again. He saved them from genocide in Egypt, took them through the wilderness giving them food and water, directed them to a place where they would be safe if they obeyed him.

            On an individual level, see the widow of Zarephath in 1 Kings 17. She continued to have flour miraculously during the drought so that she and her son stayed alive, and Jehovah even resurrected her son back to life. Sounds like the things His compassionate son Jesus did some centuries later, doesn’t it.

            No doubt these scriptures will not please you either, as they talk about Jehovah in a positive light.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, what did you do, throw up your bible and wherever it landed, if you saw the word merciful in connection with Jehovah, that is the book and chapter you would go with and it just happened to land on Psalm chapter 78? Wow!! If that is what happened, what an epic fail. It is just another example of the fact that you do not know your Bible.

            Just a few scriptures from Psalm 78 for you:

            Psalm 78:21: “When Jehovah heard them, he became furious; A fire blazed against Jacob, And his anger flared up against Israel.”

            Psalm 78:30, 31: “But before they fully satisfied their craving, While their food was yet in their mouth, God’s wrath flared up against them. He put to death their strongest men; He brought down the young men of Israel.”

            Psalm 78:33: “So he brought their days to an end as if a mere breath, an end as if a mere breath, And their years by sudden terrors.”

            Psalm 78: 44-51: “And how he turned the Nile canals into blood So they could not drink from their streams. He sent swarms of gadflies to devour them And frogs to bring them to ruin. He gave their crops to the voracious locusts, The fruit of their labor to the swarming locusts. He destroyed their vines with hail And their sycamore trees with hailstones.. He gave their livestock to the lightning bolts. He inflicted his burning anger on them. Fury and indignation and distress, Companies of angels bringing calamity. He cleared a pathway for his anger. He did not spare them from death; And he gave them over to pestilence. Finally he struck down all the firstborn of Egypt, The beginning of their procreative power in the tents of Ham.”

            Psalm 78:58, 59: “They kept offending him with their high places, And they incited him to fury with their carved images. God hear and became furious So he utterly rejected Israel.”

            Psalm 78:62-64: “He handed his people over to the sword And became furious with his inheritance. Fire consumed his young men, And to his virgins no wedding songs were sung. His priests fell by the sword And their own widows did not weep.”

            Psalm 79:5: “How long, O Jehovah, will you be furious: Forever? How long will your indignation burn just like fire?”

            As far as the son of the widow of Zarephath in 1 Kings 17, first Elijah accused Jehovah of killing her son (1 Kings 17:20). Why do you think Elijah accused Jehovah of killing her son? Have you ever asked yourself that?

            If you think it shows Jehovah’s love to resurrect just one child, what about all the children that he personally killed during the flood and the firstborn of the Egyptians and what about all those other scriptures that I showed you that he killed on purpose?

            Can you see how ridiculous your two examples are to me?

        • Hi Caroline,

          [The bible story of Adam and Eve has to be an allegory (symbolic fictional figures) because supposedly even the perfect angels saw the beautiful women and made bodies for themselves (sperm) and had children with them, making themselves demons.]

          Not that I have any authority to say one way or the other, but what do you think of the idea of an “echo” from a far distant past? Humans migrated out of Africa many generations prior the development of farming and written history. However they would have had an oral tradition that likely was connected to their past in Africa. Living in the Levant, they could easily have had fond memories of Africa.

          Even our evolutionary history would have involved the loss of body hair, the upright posture and larger head to birth. Could humans carry an echo of such a past? When these humans encountered Neanderthal, much such interactions wind up being recorded as “Nephilim?”

          I don’t think there is any way to know — it is pure speculation. On the other hand, I see nothing in the account or in the rest of the Bible to suggest the authors viewed their material as fictional. It is presented as if it is real history. Individuals known from historical sources outside the Bible, such as David, wind up in lineages that go back to Noah and finally Adam.


          • Hi Rick,

            [Randy, This Neanderthal crap mixed with Nephilim is a Satanic pattern of watering all things so no one learns truth.]

            As mentioned my post is pure speculation. We take what can be reasonably known, look for patterns and then try and arrive at a reasonable set of beliefs.

            Of the three things mentioned, Neanderthal, Nephilim and Satan one comes to us from the study of fossils and the other two are elements we find in the Bible. As per Wikipedia Neanderthal is closely related to humans that went extinct 40,000 years ago. Thus my thesis is based on connecting the migrations of humans out of Africa with them encountering Neanderthal in Europe.

            As for the Nephilim, the Bible really doesn’t say enough to pin it down. The author of Genesis does seem to suggest they were the offspring of the union between angels and human females.

            As to Satan, I don’t believe such a being exists outside of a concept within the minds of those who do. The existence of symmetry breaking super beings would basically mean gaining knowledge about our world through study and observation would be impossible.

            [not whether your son shows love poking his husband]

            Anal and oral sex practiced by married homosexual males is not dissimilar to the same practice when engaged by heterosexual married couples. Ultimately though, such activity concerns only the consenting adults involved. That is, from a society secular point of view. In contrast, both homosexual and heterosexual folks may look to religious authorities and holy books like the Bible for guidance on what is acceptable vs not. Alas, information from these religious sources differ from one faith to another and even from one person to another within the same faith.


      • dee2 says:


        This has certainly been an interesting discussion.

        The evidence speaks for itself. There were things which Adam and Eve did not know until after they ate the fruit:

        Genesis 3:7:
        “Then THE EYES OF BOTH OF THEM WERE OPENED, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.”

        So obviously Adam & Eve’s knowledge/understanding was limited, deficient, it was not all-encompassing.

        Eating the fruit somehow magically caused them to know things which they did not know before, which included the knowing the distinction between good and evil, hence why the tree was called “the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil…..” (Genesis 2:17).

        If God had already endowed Adam & Eve with the knowledge of good and evil as you claim, then why did the snake use something which Adam & Eve already had against them as a temptation?

        Obviously the snake realized that they were deficient in this knowledge and that it would therefore be tempting and use it as his main selling point when it tempted Eve.

        Might it be that Eve believed a snake because Eve being without the knowledge of good and evil did not know that the snake was evil? What is more, God did not alert Adam and Eve to the presence of the snake or instruct them to avoid it.

        And as I have stated before, if God had already endowed Adam and Eve with the knowledge of good and evil then why did he feel that this knowledge would now be a test for them if they already had this knowledge? Why is God using something which they already had as a test?

      • dee2 says:


        In conclusion:

        According to Genesis 3:17-19 only Adam and Eve were cursed. There is no mention by God of the extension of the curse to Adam and Eve’s children and later descendants.

        So the early Jews did not interpret the Adam and Eve story as something with universal implications. The story was understood either as allegory or an ancient tragedy. The story was simply not taken and extrapolated upon to arrive at a doctrine of “original sin” or “original purpose” yet to be fulfilled as a Garden of Eden throughout the earth.

        Even if it were true that sin was committed in the Garden of Eden, the extrapolation of the story by the WT & others is immoral: Would you like to live in a country where the law demanded not only the death of a felon but also the life of his children, grand children and all progeny?

        Ethical systems require that each person pays for their own wrongs. Try telling a court of law that it is your innocent children who should be penalized if you should commit a crime; let us know the outcome if you should ever find yourself in such a situation.

        It is indeed ironic that the God who commands believers to forgive their brother seventy times seven times (Matthew 18:21-2) could not forgive Adam and Eve for their minor transgression (eating a fruit, after all, is hardly a terrible crime in and of itself); he instead reacted by expelling them from Paradise and condemning them and all their descendants to a life of toil, suffering and death. 

        Finally, it should be noted that Adam and Eve were created mortal, they were subject to death even BEFORE they “sinned”. They had to eat from the tree of life in order to sustain their life and thereby overcome their mortality. So they were already mortal, subject to death even before they ate the forbidden fruit.

        • Ricardo says:

          Instead of looking at the mercy shown Adam and Eve to have children (which they would have seen as a fantastic experience as we do), you are focussing all your effort to say how unfair it was that they should have been punished in the first place. You seem to wish there were no standards ever laid down by Jehovah, in fact you are basically in the same mindset as Adam and Eve. They took no responsibility for what they did, you hold them responsible for nothing, the poor snowflakes. I have no doubt that you condemn God for having any standard of righteousness, He should let everything go as anything goes.

          The good news for you, dee2, is that God has let everything become anything goes, but thankfully he took away the living forever part for now, otherwise the wreckers would be wrecking for a long time.

          And thank goodness Jehovah has the solution after the Adams and Eves of today have wrecked the place. They wrecked things in the beginning, they are still at it.

          • YOU miss the point, the offer was that God would provide be it his son or what ever else. The what ever else showed up in a bush. So his son was untied. YOU think it awful but you people do it every day, kill your sons sending them to war unless an alternative happens to just occur. Abram’s sacrifice occurred in a year of Marduk, a holiday that honored a countdown to watch for the End in year 6000. They regarded their holiday party (of what was once serious astronomy) as better alternative than risking your son so that they said the Holiday Marduk son was a better concept than Abram putting the burden of saving the world on his one son. Thus everyone good and bad was saying Sarah is dead, so what will you do now if you lose your son, can you give him up. Yet you are all asked if you can give up your son to a government war, and you willingly do this. Abram’s alternative came to him (the angel, the Jehovah) once again was Shem Melkizedek, and Abram did not know it is Shem who brought the sheep and snagged it on the bush, before stopping Abram’s hand saying ENOUGH, you have proven you would give your son to the God who gave him to you. How dare you worship your dead vets, if you cannot respect the son who was saved from this bickering war about Abram willing to lose and sacrifice. God is willing to lose his son, the son was willing to lose his life, knowing it is YOU who would all kill him. Do not kill a man and then say it is the fault of the person who allowed him near you. It makes you demons.

          • outandabout says:

            Rick, nobody willingly sends their sons to war. Sometimes war is hoisted upon a country by an enemy, quite often backed by their god, so what is anybody supposed to do when that happens. If you were sitting watching your TV and somebody walked in and took it, would you just say “yeah, peace brother”? War is a much larger extension of that scenario. Sometimes war is essential in order to protect a democracy which has laws which allow you to preach and pray as you wish. You won’t get that in a dictatorship. Take away that democracy and you have a dictatorship. Would you prefer a dictatorship? Well, I hope so because thats what’s in store for you in paradise, so forget watching the finals on TV because god has promised to ‘destroy human wisdom and discard their most brilliant idea’s’ – Corinthians 1:19. and anyway, there won’t be any sport being played because god doesn’t like a competitive spirit. What he wants is bored, sycophantic eunuch’s in his paradise.
            War is becoming less desirable as a means of settling disputes and acquiring real estate because the world is becoming more and more democratized. Do your homework.

          • messenger says:

            Schillner Rick is correct. Wars come about because of the malice, greed, and selfishness inside humans.
            Outandandabout if some stranger enters your home to take your TV it is because of those reasons. If all malice was removed from all people and replaced with love and concern for others wars and theft would not exist.

            Atheists have no plan to bring about such a condition. And even with a plan to realize that an intelligent person would know it would not work simply by considering historical events and the actions of other people today. Blaming religion is a copout. Its a common justification, but one that does not demonstrate much intelligence. Most conflicts are a result of selfishness and greed. Religion is sometimes used as a justification, but is not the real reason. For example, US senators in the early 20th century gave speeches declaring the United States’ God given right was to dominate the people of the Philippines. Their reasons given, because those people were dark-skinned and lazy, according to the senators. Selfishness was the real reason, not religion.

  13. Caroline says:

    messenger, Watchtower is lying when it says that Abraham as good as offered up his son on the alter because James 2:21 says that Abraham did offer up his son on the alter. So, either Abraham offered up his son as a burnt sacrifice to Jehovah as James says or he didn’t as Genesis says. Take your pick. If the Bible is contradicting itself, then it’s not inspired.

    According to James, you have to prove your faith and Abraham was counted as Jehovah’s friend because he proved his faith by killing Isaac and offering him up as a burnt sacrifice to Jehovah, just as Jephthah did with his unnamed daughter.

    You gave us no scriptures proving what a loving and compassionate god Jehovah is and you wanted me to come with some more scriptures showing what a despicable god Jehovah is, so here goes:

    “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth they little ones against the stones.” Psalm 137:9

    Numbers 31:17: “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.”

    Deuteronomy 2:34″ utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.”

    Deuteronomy 28:53: “And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of they sons and of thy daughters.”

    1 Samuel 15:3: “slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.”

    2 Kings 8:12: “dash their children, and rip up their women with child”

    2 Kings 15:16: “all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.”

    Isaiah 13:16: “Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.”

    Isaiah 13:18: “They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.”

    Lamentations 2:20: “Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.”

    Ezekiel 9:6: “Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.”

    Hosea 9:14: “give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.”

    Hosea 13:16: “their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”

    2 Samuel 12:15: “And Jehovah proceeded to deal a blow to the child that the wife of Uriah had borne to David so that it took sick.”

    That is only a small sampling messenger and I am still waiting for those “good” scriptures about Jehovah’s love and compassion. Sending his son to die is like sending your kid out in the middle of gun fire to stop a gun fight.

    What kind of coward would do such a thing? Jehovah did.

    • messenger says:

      So Caroline, who invented your boogie-man, who were people following? Who was responsible, people, or your boogie-man? Now what’s your hope in correcting this? Can you correct it, or do you have no hope at all?

      • outandabout says:

        What works better in life, messenger…….hoping or coping?

        • outandabout says:

          I agree with the guts of your first paragraph about wars, messenger, but not the rest.
          I mentioned earlier about scientist’s being able to detect unfavourable genetic disorders. It won’t happen today, nor tomorrow or even our lifetimes, but just as we breed traits in animals, we’ll do the same to us. It’s unstoppable. Is this why the jihadist’s desperately want to bring about armageddon? Can they see the writing on the wall and the unravelling of everything they believe in? This is not science fiction, messenger. Just as you wouldn’t have been able to convince somebody two hundred years ago that pictures would be sent through the air into our living rooms and we could talk to each other in real time anywhere around the globe like we are just now, you’re not convinced, but this will surely happen if we continue on the current path. Coping instead of hoping.
          Of course the ethics committee will be screaming and probably, so would I. It needs a lot of discussion because it could remove a lot of what actually makes us human. No diversity.
          My view.

    • Hi Caroline,

      “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth they little ones against the stones.” Psalm 137:9

      I think this one has a pretty good answer. I commented above, but I think my comment went into the moderation bucket and never came out. Psalms 137 starts out with “By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.” (immortalized in song by Boney M). Verse 9 appears to be lament about what had happened to Jewish children when the Babylonians took captives. Basically it is a prediction of what may happen to Babylonian children. That destroyers would come and be “happy” to “dasheth” little ones against the stones.

      Merely predicting something bad will happen is not an endorsement of the bad thing itself.


  14. Caroline says:

    Rick Schiller, if you do some research into the Abraham sacrificing his son on the alter, you will see that many scholars believe that Abraham actually did kill his son and offered him up as a sacrifice. The story about the ram being stuck in the bush and Isaac later marrying Rebekah was added later because there’s more than one rendition of that story. Genesis 22:19 only mentions Abraham returning to his attendants. Nothing is mentioned about Isaac and Isaac never says anything either after the account of his sacrifice.

    Jehovah asked and accepted human burnt sacrifices as proof of “faith” in him. If that wasn’t what Abraham was used to hearing from his god, then he would have not agreed to doing it, that is if he was sane.

  15. Christian Freedom says:

    Someone should check the watchtower study of Sunday, 18 June, 2017. Titled “The Judge of All the Earth Always Does what Is Right”.

    Though the article doesn’t directly say something about child sexual problems in the organisation and the injustice done by the organisation. But it is clearly a perfect attempt to shutdown Witnesses asking questions, claiming, Jehovah will do what is right in the right time, you do not have all the facts… Bla Bla Bla.

    Can someone in jwsurvey.org write a good rebuttal? Witnesses need to knw what the organisation is trying to do with this article and some others in the future. The organisation is just trying to cover they wrong doing

    • Ricardo says:

      @Christian Freedom, what a disgusting article that is for victims of injustice in our org! Our Public Talk today mentioned not wearing tight pants. People might get stumbled if we wear tight pants. So this “pimple” can be removed by stopping people wearing tight pants.

      There is the ulcer of injustices clearly seen in our congregations. What do we do about this ulcer? Do we remove it like the way we removed the pimple? No. We put makeup over it, by telling victims to shut up. Thus, the elders (or others) who are carrying on the injustice can carry on belting up us and other sheep, but if the sheep baaaar about it they get clobbered again.

      Joseph didn’t mention his brothers having sold him, because there was nothing anyone in Egypt could do about them. So that is taken to mean that if any elder in the congregation has done an injustice to us, we don’t mention who they are. Of course, by mentioning who they are, other victims might come forward and state that they too have had their lives ruined by that elder, and something might be able to be done about the ulcer. But that strategy is squashed.

      The only satisfaction I have is knowing that no abusive organization can continue on and on, and that if the GB wants to just put makeup over the ulcer, then the ulcer will still be there, getting bigger and bigger until eventually it brings down the org. So the GB are actually sabotaging themselves.

      • Joseph could do about his brothers. He could kill them. And if he tell Pharaoh he wants them to confess their sins, then Pharaoh might kill them. The reality is that no Israel going thru the Red Sea (with 600,000 converts) would exist if Joseph had not accepted them into Egypt, yes made them come to Egypt. So the fact is that his brothers could be demons and exalt themselves saying we have saved Israel by selling Joseph. Like saying Judas gave us the sacrifice Jesus. The simple fact is that they never liked each other because it is written they feared Joseph would kill them after father died. WHY! because they judged their good brother as evil. They had not changed, and yes they were worthy of death for this ingratefulness they had gaining so much in Egypt. It is very much like today’s world kissing arse to give the Jews everything and then being told by Jews that their God gave it to them. Or worse the Jewing screwing skills given them by God. The ingrates are the ones who do NOT say God is good to us though no one deserves it. He that seeks credit is an ingrate. And before you judge an ingrate, maybe he isnt asking for credit but demanding to know why others are getting your credit or my credit, the credit. We dont have to worship Tesla to damn Edison. We dont have to worship WatchTower to damn Catholic.

        • Someone should right Tony Morris and tell him that ignorng damning cursing tight pants might get penis images out of his mind, but there are alot of little girl victims, and alot of images that dont leave a Morris-mind no matter what clothing you blame for arousal. His opinion causes his arousal, not the clothes themselves. For Jehovah, our Morris has been deselected from the 144,000 because as an angel he has already proven he would be coming down Earth to rip tight pants off of boys. Something the demons never did before the Flood.

      • Shibboleth says:

        Wow! I looked at that article, they are really trying to cover their bases. Basically, if you have perceived that you have been unjustly victimized in the congregation just get a closer relationship with Jah and leave it in his hands and you will feel much better. Like that brother who was shunned as if disfellowshipped for getting married, so they didn’t make him a circuit overseer, he was only allowed to be a pioneer. He swallowed his feelings and continued to serve and then “Jah” rectified the situation…NOT! It was the org who changed their stance. So just wait for the org to change their direction and you will be fine. Sounds like they are worried about crowd control. They can’t have anyone who has been unjustly treated or victimized talking negatively in the hall getting everyone upset now can they? Maybe the active and inactive JW’s visiting this site are causing a rukus in the congregations with their comments on the covered up sex abuse cases and other “new light” ;). POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!

      • Hi Ricardo,

        Having left now nearly 10 years ago, the organization feels like a distant object in my rear view mirror. Your comment though reminded me of what I have long believed. Many individual Witnesses are just good people who, at times, sense policy is misguided, but do not know exactly what to do about.

        I’m sure it must be painful to be an active JW and yet see issues that leadership should be dealing with, but are not.

        Take care,

        • messenger says:

          Not only are WT’s policies misguided, also its teachings continue to be and always have been. According to Christian scriptures what could be much more apostate than teaching an Egyptian pyramid’s dimensions are a witness from the Bible’s god, and shed light (knowledge) on Bible scriptures and prophecy? There are so many holes when comparing WT teachings with Bible scriptures, and WT creates more holes all the time. The light getting brighter for WT in reality is a demonstration of change, not accuracy. People follow it because they are told to, told to exclusively by Watchtower.

          • Hi Messenger,

            Agreed. Modern JWs no longer make claims about the pyramids. Nonetheless, Russell’s concern about end-of-days has continued. The focus of NT authors, such as Paul, is exclusively on Jesus as the Christ. Any mention of God, such as via quotes of the OT, is always in relation to Jesus, often to state that Jesus was the Son of God. All the evidence we have suggests these first Christians never used the divine name “Jehovah.”[1] JWs of course are a bit different than that and as such, I see them as oddly out of touch with NT Christianity.

            [1] The 237 times Jehovah appears in the NWT is ironically the same problem they complain about in regards to the OT. The original OT had Jehovah thousands of times, but it was replaced by Lord. In the NT, Paul and others write Lord, only to have NWT translators replace it with Jehovah.

          • messenger says:

            Hi Randy.

            Another point I’ve noticed is that the first century gospel centered on Jesus, as you brought out, not the kingdom. And although Christ preached about the kingdom a lot we see from the book of John his main purpose was to convince people to follow him. I think the word kingdom was only used 4 times in the book of John. Pardon me if I’m wrong, I’m not looking that up.

            But the JW message centers around the kingdom of God and not the Christ. And once contacted neighbors are introduced to a formal study and start attending the Kingdom Hall then who are they taught are to be future kings in God’s kingdom? They are taught the most influential future kings over Earth presently are members of the governing body, who by Christ’s appointment are controlling all Christ’s Earthly interests today. With that line of teaching they take captive their students, because they claim prospective kings can only exist in their group with their consent. Other Christian groups I’ve heard from don’t make such claims, and those others also preach messages that center on Christ. As Paul did, he said, “I preach only the Christ.”

            True JWs no longer believe that apostate pyramid teaching. But they believed it until 1928 when Rutherford finally identified it as an apostate teaching. Therefore it makes no sense God would choose WT in 1919 (as JWs claim) for teaching correct truths over other Christian denominations who WT claims taught apostate teachings. Along with WT’s false date prophesies WT had some of the most apostate teachings in 1919-the pyramid being one of those. Therefore, that central claim that WT alone speaks (spoke) for God is an apostate claim. Again, other Christian teachers I’ve heard from make no such claim.

            Those WT claims are either true or apostate. I see no, ‘oh we made a mistake about us be exclusively the truth because we are imperfect here.’ I know you don’t believe in God, but for a moment imagine the Bible and God both a reality and I think you’ll get my point.

            Take care brother.

          • Hi Messenger,

            [Another point I’ve noticed is that the first century gospel centered on Jesus, as you brought out, not the kingdom. And although Christ preached about the kingdom a lot we see from the book of John his main purpose was to convince people to follow him. I think the word kingdom was only used 4 times in the book of John. Pardon me if I’m wrong, I’m not looking that up.]

            Yes, thanks. Reading your post does make me think of how best one can sum up the NT. The emphasis on Jesus as the Christ very much appears in Paul’s writings. The synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are narratives of the life of Jesus. In them the Kingdom of God is a main emphasis. John’s gospel, written later, is much more reflective and focused on who Jesus was in relation to God and his love. John 3:16 being the most famous apex in his opening argument.

            Your memory servers you well. As per BibleGateway “kingdom” appears 4 times in the book of John 🙂


          • Hi Rick,

            [What could be more demonic or more Satanic than a man who says Pardon me if I am wrong but I am not looking it up. Try that one in court to a judge.]

            There is a definite difference between the OT and NT in regards to demons. Demonic possession is part of the NT, but not the OT. In any regards, the presentation of Satan and the Demons in the Bible is not one where they cause folks to make honest and polite expressions 🙂


        • Ricardo says:

          @Randy, I just received the June study WT last night, and upon a quick glance before the start of the meeting (when once again for the umpteenth year in a row noone spoke to me, but were around me speaking) I saw on page 31 paragraph 16 the statement that we do not want to stumble others by our dress.

          When I see things like this it is very painful for me. From that paragraph we see that faithful Christians might be stumbled if we wear tight pants. But last Sunday’s WT said that faithful Christians are not stumbled when injustices do occur. Meaning, that if we were molested by an elder and the incident got covered up and we couldn’t get justice, then we shouldn’t leave the org (or say anything about it to anyone else). But if, after that fiasco we saw someone wearing tight pants to the meeting, this is a suitable thing to be stumbled by. What utter, utter nonsense. What is worse, molesting someone and not owning up to it, or wearing tight pants?

          The only satisfaction I have is the knowledge that any organization as dysfunctional as this must collapse. It actually could be a good org if it did what it says it does, but like the 1st century Pharisees, it’s a case of do what the leadership says but not as they do.

          • Hi Ricardo,

            [When I see things like this it is very painful for me.] and [What utter, utter nonsense. What is worse, molesting someone and not owning up to it, or wearing tight pants?]

            I don’t know what to say. Sometimes when I read “day is near” expressions in books like Zephaniah, I sense the cry for justice in a time and age when those with power so abused it. It is true many religions show concern about dress and grooming. Sikh wear turbans for example. But at least in these cases there is a long and unchanging history that doesn’t bounce around at the whim of the latest leader. And of course, what possible justification can there be for showing more concern about reputation than actually doing the right thing?

            Hopefully being able to come here and comment along with knowing there are many long-time-devoted Witnesses who see the same issues, provides a bit of comfort. Some hang on and of course many of us have left.

            Take care,

  16. Ted says:

    Sometimes Bible writers speak positively about sex and marriage
    Prov, 5:18. “Rejoice with the wife of your youth”, then at other times
    they appear to be disgusted by the subject. –>

    Regarding the 144 ,000, Rev,14:4 says These did not “Defile them-
    selves with “Women”. Even if we do not put a literal interpretation
    on this verse, the language denigrates and undervalues women, –>

    But if we should take this text at face value, then it’s clear that women
    will have no part in kingdom rulership. It’s entirely a male province,
    and reinforces the chauvenist, patriarchal view of women’s subjection
    to men. GB member Sam Herd is an enthusiastic supporter of this
    out dated and negative doctrine. –>

    Herd in one of his talks as a CO, endorsed the idea that women have
    smaller brains than men and were not fitted for head ship, and if any
    woman said she could do a better job than the elders. Well that was
    bordering on “Homosexuality”, ( they’re definitely fixated ! )

    Hopping from literal to symbolic, “even in a single verse” to make it
    fit an interpretation is a device wt, knows all about, Rev, 7:5-8,
    the numbers are claimed to be literal but the tribes are symbolic.

  17. Ted says:

    Sometimes Bible writers speak positively about sex and marriage
    Prov, 5:18. “Rejoice with the wife of your youth”, then at other times
    they appear to be disgusted by the subject. –>

    Regarding the 144 ,000, Rev,14:4 says These did not “Defile them-
    selves with “Women”. Even if we do not put a literal interpretation
    on this verse, the language denigrates and undervalues women, –>

    But if we should take this text at face value, then it’s clear that women
    will have no part in kingdom rulership. It’s entirely a male province,
    and reinforces the chauvenist, patriarchal view of women’s subjection
    to men. GB member Sam Herd is an enthusiastic supporter of this
    out dated and negative doctrine. –>

    Herd in one of his talks as a CO, endorsed the idea that women have
    smaller brains than men and were not fitted for head ship, and if any
    woman said she could do a better job than the elders. Well that was
    bordering on “Homosexuality”, ( they’re definitely fixated ! )

    Hopping from literal to symbolic, “even in a single verse” to make it
    fit an interpretation is a device wt, knows all about, Rev, 7:5-8,
    the numbers are claimed to be literal but the tribes are symbolic.

    Seriously, it’s easy to see why there’s thousands of Christian
    religions. you can always find a text to fit, or make one fit, and
    someone will fall for it. As they say there’s one born every minute.

  18. Ted says:

    How anyone who having a knowledge of the organised
    cover up of sexual molestation of children in the JW org,
    or any other org, can continue to give any kind of moral
    support, by attending their meetings and participating
    in their programme, is puzzling to say the least.

    “Come out of her my people if you do not want to share
    in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues”.
    Revelations 18:4.

    • outandabout says:

      I’d hazard, Ted, that those inside the KH who know about what you mention, remain because they still believe in Jehovah and it’s the ‘where else would I go?’ scenario. To abandon Jehovah is the same as committing suicide to these people, so what else are they to do? Possibly for them, to leave the safety of the KH and being caught out on open ground by Armageddon without having found a suitable place of worship is a terrifying thought. Their fear of death over rides everything else but no doubt most of them who know about the abuse feel terrible. In some way’s they deserve a bit of sympathy, but the people in charge…….jail them.

    • Ricardo says:

      Jesus worshipped in amongst a corrupt religious system and his worship was accepted by God. So, too, the WT org has many corrupt practices. Jesus told his disciples to do what the Pharisees say, but don’t do what they do. Good advice for Christians in the org today: do what the leadership says, but don’t do what they do.

      Jesus wants his followers to be aware of the corruption in the org, but to be careful not to let that corruption affect them.

      Being in the org, we are in a better position to bring up to the elders and Co’s the corruption we see, so they cannot claim they don’t know about it.

    • messenger says:

      Doesn’t it seem hypocritical to offer advice from Bible scriptures if you don’t believe those scriptures are inspired and will come true? Get out of what? And precisely what will happen if a person doesn’t? But if you in fact do think that metaphorical prophesy will come true, then what makes it any different than other Bible scriptures, other than most of the other ones are not metaphorical?

  19. Ted says:

    @Messenger, your thoughts from a previous post.–>
    “Blaming religion for war is a common justification,
    but one that does not demonstrate much intelligence.
    Most conflicts are the result of selfishness and greed,
    religion is used as a justification”.

    At last ureeka! This is what some of us have been trying
    to get across to you. That the slaughter and plunder of
    the so called promised land had little to do with any God
    or religion. It was the result of men’s selfishness and greed.
    Religion was just used as a justification.

    Good manners preclude me from impugning your
    intelligence, I don’t believe you do lack intelligence ,
    just a little consistency. Best Wishes, Ted

    • Caroline says:

      @Ted and messenger, I apologize go you messenger for impugning your intelligence. It was rude of me. I lost it and I am sorry for doing that.

      • outandabout says:

        You’re ok, Caroline. Not a lot of people know this about messenger, but he doesn’t feel alive until he’s had his daily insult.

    • outandabout says:

      The word ‘science’ wasn’t invented until modern times, Rick. Neanderthals were not known about either, but thanks to science, we now now that you and I have Neanderthal genes as well the genes of a more recently discovered humanoid named Denisovan within us. Seems like God had a couple of earlier goes at creating humans and even on the third attempt, didn’t get it right, apparently. Bit of a slow learner this God.

      So anyway, when Armageddon strikes and 108 billion people get resurrected, I guess Neanderthals and Denisovan, being our cousins, will be among those resurrected, being God’s creation and all. So where does it stop? How far back does it go? If chimps are 96% genetically the same as us and we can’t produce offspring with them, how genetically close to us do you imagine Neanderthal and Denisovan were? This ‘God created the Universe just for Us’ is looking like a bit of a lie, don’t you think?

    • messenger says:

      Hello Ted. If my writings seem inconsistent it is just because those are misunderstood. My beliefs are extremely consistent. I believe God has revealed himself at various times throughout history, and to varying degrees, to people on this planet. I believe God’s directions do not control people, so actions of people should not be blamed on God. I believe pain and suffering are a result of God allowing people to live in the way they choose to, so, because of that, it doesn’t make sense to blame God for pain.

      I believe most people have not been given solid proof that God exists, and that what he’s shown them about himself is so hazy that they are motivated to find him or choose not to seek him more by their internal desires than their actual beliefs. I believe that is probably allowed by God for a reason, to allow people to choose what they really want, whether their dominant desire is to follow him or not.

      Therefore, I don’t think it makes any sense for an atheist to blame God for anything, those people believing him nonexistent. I don’t believe people who believe in God should blame him since their actions and everybody else’s here are the result of their own choices, not God’s. I believe the folks who wrote the Bible were contacted by God or some invisible representatives from God, and that the actions of the ancient Jews, what they did and why they did those things, are not understood by many on this site. I believe most of what is happening here, on this planet, is for the purpose of teaching us, that nothing was a mistake, and everything that has happened was always known by God. I believe the Bible’s message, but I believe WT is terribly misrepresenting it. I believe I’ll see some of you in the future, maybe even after we die, if we die.

      • outandabout says:

        Messenger…..atheists do not blame god for violence because atheist’s don’t believe god exists, as you say. Atheists point to the violence done using god’s name and also the dangers of absolute belief. ‘I believe’ is not proof of anything at all and can be rather dangerous.

        We’ve been stood up, messenger. The meal has gone cold and is ruined. Hanging around waiting and hoping for that knock on the door that was supposed to happen two thousand years ago is not a healthy thing to do. But I understand…..it’s a relay and it’s your turn. Don’t drop the baton.

        • messenger says:


          Obviously an atheist does not (logically) blame God. That’s the rationale I’ve been stressing in most of my comments to others on this thread, that to do so for an atheist is illogical. Yet there seems to be quite a few people here who appear to be atheists yet their central arguments are against Jehovah or against the Bible, with their claim being Jehovah gave laws in the Bible. Their reasoning makes no sense to me. That’s my point. It’s arguing against a boogie man. Not my belief, just their illogical fallacy.

          What you fail to realize (believe) is that God reveals what he wants about himself to who he wants for his own reasons. He is under no obligation to do things in a way you think fit. And your understanding of the written document the Bible is flawed. Probably you are making assumptions because of nonbelief. For example nothing in the Bible claims Earth’s condition would change 2000 years ago.

          As far as your claim that absolute belief is dangerous. That’s an irrational thought. Do you absolutely believe the fire is hot? And according to scripture God has no pleasure in people who don’t believe in him. So those folks are in a dangerous position who do not absolutely believe in him. That being your chief complaint about God’s actions. Though you were not absolutely shown God exists others have been shown. It makes no sense they deny that claim because of your limited knowledge, just because you haven’t been shown. Actually if they would deny their belief God probably would never have revealed his presence to them. They would have remained like you, in darkness spiritually. That’s not meant to be an insult, rather it’s what you have admitted yourself. You don’t know if God exists is your claim. Darkness then means you have not seen that.

          As far a carrying the baton. Google “world’s largest religion” and see how many carry it.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, ask yourself, when you read your bible, every time you see the phrase Jehovah said or Jehovah told or any phrase like that, just how did Jehovah reveal himself to Moses or David? The bible never says. It would have been so easy for those writers to say that God told Moses or David or anybody else to do all those things. Those writings are from thousands of years ago with no printing presses and only people handwriting those books. Those people never thought that thousands of years in the future that those writings were straight from the mouth of Jehovah.

            It is exactly the same as today when people do things in God’s name. All those terrible acts of violence people do in the name of religion is because they think that is what God is telling them to do.

            Believers in any god make the claim that only their god is the only “true” god. There’s thousands of those “true” gods and an atheist is somebody who only believes in one less god than all those other thousands of gods.

            You think you can label us as atheists and against the only one and “true” god but you have no way of proving that only your god (of the bible) is the one and only true god. You are also an atheist when it comes to those claims of all those other religions that you don’t believe in. You are in exactly the same boat as those of us who don’t believe in the god of the Bible.

            As far as all those other religious’ gods go, you are also condemned to eternal destruction.

          • Hi Messenger,

            [Yet there seems to be quite a few people here who appear to be atheists yet their central arguments are against Jehovah or against the Bible, with their claim being Jehovah gave laws in the Bible. Their reasoning makes no sense to me. That’s my point. It’s arguing against a boogie man. Not my belief, just their illogical fallacy.]

            I’m an atheist. I do not believe a creator, super being, such as a resurrected Jesus or Jehovah exist. The existence of any capricious symmetry breaking force or being would fundamentally mean we could know nothing about the material world. Either the sky is blue because that is how electromagnetic radiation from the Sun interacts with our atmosphere or it really is bright pink and Satan just keeps messing with us to make it seem to be blue.

            The ability to make any claim about God and for there to be no way to establish, even in principal, how it might be shown false is a serious problem for any who seek knowledge. The author of Exodus tells us Moses encountered a burning bush and heard God identify himself as “I AM WHO I AM.” Who is to say that did or did not happen? Likewise the author of the Book of Mormon said that while in prayer a light filled his room making it brighter than at noonday. An angel appeared, identified himself as Moroni, and spoke to him. Who is to say that did or did not happen?

            Why though does an atheist spend so much time talking about God?

            This is a good question. First off, I think it worthwhile to say, freedom of a precious thing and when Mormon leaders say of Ex-Mormons, “they leave the Church, but they can’t leave the Church alone” they have no right to attempt to dictate what Ex-Mormons talk about. We are free to speak about our beliefs or former beliefs as much or a little as we wish.

            My conclusion, at least for myself personally, is, it is a way of processing the sense of betrayal. In 1981, when I was 16, I got baptized in good faith. I saw this as a three way contract between myself, the organization and Jehovah. However as I woke up and began to see the organization was not entirely truthful about many things, including their own history, and the theory of evolution, I realized two of the three parties had broken that contract.

            The organization broken the contract by not being completely honest and truthful as they had so often promised. Jehovah broke the contract by not existing. Beyond what authors have written about Jehovah and Moroni, there is just no testable evidence to show such beings exist. While I must admit I cannot prove they do not exist, assuming they do not seems like the most reasonable thing for me.

            When I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, I was ready for it. When he said of Jehovah:

            “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

            I not only appreciated the shock value, but knew every word and small phrase in that sentence could be backed up by scriptural reference.

            Yet in the end, I decided, I had made a huge investment in Bible reading in all those years, and for me it didn’t feel right to just give it up and toss it all aside. While it can be fun to point out all the awful problems in scripture (killing homosexual males, drowning babies, kittens and puppies, praising Jehu for wanton killing of Baal worshipers or David for killing and then removing the foreskins of hundreds of Philistines so he could marry Michal, etc, etc) that seems to miss something too. Clearly the OT authors loved Jehovah and saw nothing at issue in all these accounts. Thus, for better or worse, I’ve stuck with my Bible reading trying to make sense of it along with religious beliefs. As Richardo has mentioned, all this can come across as wishy-washy and perhaps that is true. The real truth is, things are complex and not entirely clear.

            Catholics can be motivated to expend great energy helping the poor, running hospitals, etc. Yet at the same time conceive of a God that will roast some forever in the fires of hell. They can speak of sin and the need for confession yet seemingly be unaware of the guilt burden they are placing on themselves and others.

            In the end I do believe God exists in one special way. He exists within the mind of the believer and as a shared concept among a group of like-minded believers. When a believer expresses how they feel about God, I see them as expressing their inner-most feelings and emotions. If they talk about the love God has or the sense of direction he gives them I think, that is probably okay. If they speak lots about God’s justice and how he is going to right the wrongs, etc, I worry. I worry such believers may try to impose their view of God’s justice on others. I worry, that they may be reducing the value of their own life, as they wallow in discontent. If the believer expresses how much someone or organization is being used by God, I worry they may be under unhealthy influence.


          • dee2 says:


            Well said. Those were some very interesting thoughts regarding how the Bible should be viewed when one discovers that it is not inspired by God.

            For sure, when one embarks on the scepticism path you begin to read the bible more than you did as a believer and begin to see beyond the filtered view in which you were indoctrinated.

            After being misled, it is not easy to get to the point where you appreciate the Bible for what it actually is rather than what it has been fantasized to be. Only the liberal/progressive Christians are willing to admit that the Bible is not inspired of God (and well the Catholic nun who was my Biology teacher in high school).

            My initial reaction was that the Bible was just a piece of trash and how misleading, dishonest and deceptive Christianity is. But then I really wanted to know more about the human origins of Judaism and Christianity and how other religions, beliefs and cultures influenced the Bible, and how people used to think and behave back in the day. The Bible then becomes a valuable piece of historical literature and has been recognized as such by academia, Bible historians etc.

          • dee2 says:


            [ “I do believe God exists in one special way”]

            You may find the experience of Gretta Vosper a former liberal/progressive Christian who came out as atheist to be of interest.

            She believes “God” is the good in you. The “Devil” is the bad in you. What she now believes in are ethos and community.

            She was found unsuitable by the United Church of Canada however her congregants wanted her to stay; the final decision was with the congregants.

            The following is an excerpt from her defense to the United Church of Canada:


            “…….a being who presides over Earth from another realm, a supernatural one, from which it has the power to intervene in the natural world – capriciously or by design – by responding to our prayerful requests, or altering our minds and so, too, our actions, or intervening in the natural world with or without provocation or invitation in order to alter weather patterns, health, the accumulation or loss of wealth, the circumstances of birth including geography – a predictor of health and access to food and water – gender, sexuality, mental capacity, or beauty – all predictors of the power status and ease with which individuals will live their lives, then, no, I do not believe in that at all. Neither do I believe in a god of no substance who exists beyond the universe yet contains it, interpenetrating it in some incomprehensible way for some incomprehensible purpose.

            I see no evidence of such gods. 

            I DO NOT BELIEVE …

            … in gods who can intervene in the natural world; therefore, I cannot believe that there is something we could define as a “call” from any god to us to direct us to act in any particular way.”

          • dee2 says:



            The song, “By the rivers of Babylon” was actually covered by Boney M.
            The original was sung by a Jamaican group, the Melodians:


          • dee2 says:

            ****** the actual details of Gretta Vosper’s defense before the United Church of Canada can be found here:


          • Hi Dee2,

            [Well said. Those were some very interesting thoughts regarding how the Bible should be viewed when one discovers that it is not inspired by God.]

            Thank you for the kind comments. Growing up in a dysfunctional home of an alcoholic (my parents were DF’d when I was 4) I did very little reading during my school years. The first book I ready cover-to-cover was the Greatest Man book when I was 24. I ready the Bible cover to cover when I was 34. I then read the Quran, The Book of Mormon and the Bible several more times. So… it is also a bit of an investment thing, especially when one is a slow reader.

            Gretta Vosper’s experience sound interesting. I’m a Unitarian Univeralist and our minister, Rev. Andy, had a similar path — from fundamentalist Christian to UU.


        • messenger says:

          Hi Randy

          I wasn’t speaking of you in my comment that you quoted. You may fit the bill, but I’m not aware of it because I don’t read all the comments here. Following is a part of that quote: [Yet there seems to be quite a few people here who appear to be atheists yet their central arguments are against Jehovah or against the Bible, with their claim being Jehovah gave laws in the Bible]. It appears from your recent statements you do not believe that the God Jehovah gave the laws in the Bible. Maybe you have made that claim in your past posts, like I said I don’t read all posts. Anyway if so its illogical to claim Jehovah does not exits while at the same time claim he gave the laws in the Bible or anywhere. Its arguing opposing sides of the same issue. The estoppel exclusionary law Redwood informed us about while writing of a recent WT legal case prohibits those types of arguments in court cases. While this is not a court case those arguments are still illegitimate here because they are dishonest, professing to believe in something and then professing not to believe in it, and even inside the same argument. If honest commenters would be consistent. Dishonesty is a WT tactic maybe they haven’t shed.

          How you define your phrase ” capricious symmetry breaking force or being?” I see no conflict between humans acquiring knowledge and the existence of God being factual. I see the opposite, that knowledge would and is more easily acquired because some knowledge has supplied by the creator, and he has created mankind not only with the ability to understand but also a desire to explore and learn. The inability to understand the universe if God exists makes no sense. If God exists then discovered knowledge is merely because of him. Discovering it is not hindered by him, at least not the parts he allows us to discover, which is everything and more than we presently have. In what way could you prove that God’s existence would keep humans ignorant of all knowledge, even colors?

          • Hi Messenger,

            [Anyway if so its illogical to claim Jehovah does not exits while at the same time claim he gave the laws in the Bible or anywhere.]

            Agreed. It may just be a manner of speaking. Even though I’m an atheist, I will say things that sound as if I’m talking about God doing this or that, when I really mean, God-as-presented-by-a-given-author.

            [The inability to understand the universe if God exists makes no sense. If God exists then discovered knowledge is merely because of him.]

            To an extent it would depend on the role one assigns to God. Clearly there are scientists who are theists and being so doesn’t get in the way of them making discoveries using the scientific method. Francis Collins, lead of the Human Genome Project, and author of Language of God, is an example of this.

            In fact, I’m reading a math book entitled Naming Infinity that argues embracing religion and mysticism (specifically a belief called “Name Worshiping”) allowed the Russians to make further progress in regards to set theory compared to the French.

            [In what way could you prove that God’s existence would keep humans ignorant of all knowledge, even colors?]

            This is a philosophical position about symmetry and the extent we depend on it to known things. If symmetry can be broken, or to say it another way, if math or nature were unreliable then we could not be certain of anything. Thus if God exists, can break symmetry at will, and we have no ability to detect such, then we reason to doubt any knowledge we think we have about color.

            Rene Descartes famously said “cogito ergo sum,” or “I think, therefore I am”. That is, one need not doubt their own existence. But doubt, or skepticism, is a good place to start about all other things. In particular I doubt the existence of Moroni, because the claim involves supernatural elements. I take note that many folks make supernatural claims, even during modern times, but no one has been able to claim the James Randi prize by demonstrating such under controlled conditions.

            All that said, as an atheist I do try to be careful about how I talk about God. As mentioned, I believe, God does exist within the mind of the believer. Thus saying, “God X or God Y is awful, here is my proof,” can inadvertently be received as if one is making an attack on the character of the believer. It may be true that the Bible shows Jehovah was willing to kill the domestic animals of Nineveh, but when my JW friend says, they “Love Jehovah” I believe the latter does not reflect on the former.


  20. Whip It says:

    I did not attend the WT, i had pre read it earlier & decided to take the Day of with Wifey, as many have said its disgusting, i had a chat with a dear old friend who resigned a while back & was announced, she is very happy, i have told her about this site as well. People are blind, as with the 75 video, people actually believe the WT did not false prophecy, & that the proof on the internet is apostate lies, the same with child abuse, they call it the same, pointless to discuss.

  21. twistedsister69 says:


    ‘I didn’t know I was using the K.I.S.S. bible.’
    Wooo, nice one Jennifer. Welcome to the party! 😀

  22. Jennifer says:

    Thanks, twistedsister, I’m a big fan of your sense of humour. Till next time.


    • twistedsister69 says:

      It’s nice to have fans. Especially now that it’s so hot. BAZINGA!!!
      Anyways……….So, telling the poor ol’ jws that they should ignore the foibles of JW.Borg, and ignore the bad behavior of brothers, sisters, elders, whatever, because it’s really all about “Jehovah” after all, is sort of like one Communist bolstering the spirits of another, disgruntled, Communist, by saying something like, “Hey, I know a lot of us do rotten stuff, and the Central Party often lies, deceives, manipulates, and demands more & more of our $$$, time, & energy, but after all, we are not in it for the people, we are in it for the good of the Party.” That’s right, it’s all about Big Brother. All Hail Big Brother!
      BTW, has ANY jw out there ever actually MET this “Jehovah”??? Has “he” (or “she”) ever spoken to you OR someone you know??? Or is your belief based on a pile of DUSTY OLD SCROLLS written some 2000 – 3500 years ago by some primitive tribe of goatherders, who COINCIDENTALLY also decreed, in said writings, that THEY were the “chosen nation”, all while the hot Middle Eastern sun was frying their brains & probably causing fantastic hallucinations. And THAT’S the basis of your belief in this MENTAL IDOL “Jehovah”??? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
      PS Don’t get me wrong. I’m not judging. I’m not saying I’M superior to anyone. After all, I TOO WAS FOOLED / BRAINWASHED. But I WOKE UP. And hey, if I could do it, ANYONE can. But it takes the DESIRE – the WILL. No more Zombieland. Time to be an Individual.
      PPS I may be heading back to the Apple Store again. My computer is being a real pain in the A$$.

    • twistedsister69 says:

      Homosexuals AND heterosexuals are guilty of that. Even the Quran says that ‘people will be fornicating in the streets like donkeys’. Frankly, I personally don’t give a damn what happens to degenerates like that, including Shirley freakin’ Maclaine.

    • outandabout says:

      Two questions here, Rick…….where do you get your figures from (85%) and are these people you speak of killing each other?

  23. GEM says:

    Is it any wonder that you have been allocated Comment No. 666 Mr Schiller? Is it sign….? You belong to a Printing and Publishing establishment that has made its $$ on false prophesy and Numerology.

    Seriously, dude… if a man or woman is born with a different set of chromosomes… they have the same right to love someone as You do. You remind me of the writings of John Wyndham in the Crysalids.. where every deviation from the norm is considered a blasphemy …where people born with blasphemous Telepathy end up in paradise, all together in New Zealand, I recall.

    Whereas it is true that many Hetero and Homo Sexual people are guilty of promiscuity… there are equally a huge number of both Hetero and Homo Sexual marriages/partnerships. Folks with happy and loving relationships.

    Please drop the extremist hatred from your writings and promote true love.

  24. Doc Obvious says:

    I believe there is collusion between Jared Kushner, Watchtower Babble and Tract Society, and the Russian Federation. Currently the Jared Kushner video has been brought down by Watchtower. The plot thickens! How exciting.

  25. Ted says:

    Sound points, Outandabout. Yes I do feel sorry for
    some of them although it’s difficult sometimes, knowing
    they can’t wait for me to be bird food. The book
    “CAPTIVES” of a Concept. Is aptly titled.

  26. Ted says:

    Oh, Rick, you’re a scream. They’ve got you hooked on
    the idea, that outside the KH it’s one big orgy going on.

    Don’t take the movies too seriously, or what the mag-
    nificent 7 try to feed you, it’s not real life as most people
    know it. The majority of us are just hard working people
    struggling to pay the bills, with little energy left to join in
    the local F, Fest, even if we could find one.

    • That reply was attached to Doc Obvious and it comes up Ted. YOUR typical incompetence of the 2017 computer systems making billions $$$$$$ for Bill Gates and the internet commercial pie.

      • Caroline says:

        Rick, I think you have a story to tell, but I am having a real hard time understanding your comments. I don’t know if it’s just because I am too stupid or what. Can you take more time with your comments and make paragraphs and explain your points more before going onto a different subject?

        Thank you Ted for your nice comment to me.

        • Gwen Little says:

          Caroline, when I start to read ricks comments after the first sentence I need to take an aspirin & lie down.

  27. Ted says:

    @Caroline, I found nothing offensive in your comments,
    therefore you owe me no apology. I love what you
    have to say, you use uncomplicated logic and language
    that is most appealing and convincing. Best Wishes,or
    as our old friend Excelsior would say, Peace be with you.

  28. Ted says:

    Did someone mention, Neanderthal Genes.?

  29. Ted says:

    @Caroline, I found nothing offensive in your comments,
    therefore you owe me no apology. I love what you have to
    say, you use uncomplicated logic and language, which is
    very appealing and convincing . Best wishes, Ted.

  30. Eddie says:

    “YOUR” feelings should over ride the feelings of my GOD and “MY” household?!?!?
    Don’t associate with me and I’ll return the favor

    • twistedsister69 says:

      My ‘puter’s still giving me a hard time, but I gotta get this one out.
      Hey Eddie, of course in your home you’re king, but there’s still such a thing as manners & basic human decency (I HOPE). I didn’t see the video ‘cause of my G…D….. computer, but from what I read, it seems there was a lot of scowling & glaring. If WT really wants to teach its “sheep” to be HUMAN, it would have been a lot more DECENT & RESPECTABLE & … HONORABLE (Did I just use a dirty word?), & respectFUL to simply & DIRECTLY (NO Passive-Aggressiveness please – that’s for wimps, sissies, & little girls) say something like, “Look, we in this household do not approve of such things. This dinner is concluded. Please leave now.” Does that make sense or no? Maybe I’m just outta my freakin’ mind, but I personally believe the world would perk up a bit if everyone just SKIPPED THE F***ING DRAMA.
      U know, as in: “Cancel My Subscription to Your Issues”

  31. outandabout says:

    I’m wondering…… if God could see that we were making positive steps to improve in every way, I mean really really improving – no wars, violence, homosexuality, etc, in fact behaving exactly as he wants and then finally getting there, would he still destroy us? He would, wouldn’t he. His finger would be hovering in an absolute trembling indecisive fury over the nuke button because we got there without his intervention, but he would still have to do it anyway, otherwise, what was it all about. He’d have this Paradise all set up and with nobody to put in it. It’d be like a Nursery all set up with everything required for the imminent arrival but with the child being stillborn. Can’t have any of that. He doesn’t want us to succeed, so creates the scenario for failure.

    • messenger says:

      Why are you afraid of God destroying you? Do you believe you must support WT to please God? If God sees and even lives in the future doesn’t it make sense he already knows all outcomes?

      No wars brought about by people? get real! You are talking about people who colonized the world after millenniums of conquering each other’s lands, people who presently have thousands of nuclear weapons aimed at each other.

      If you think God is just waiting to destroy you, ponder this. Why hasn’t he smacked you down already, if that’s his pleasure? Maybe he wants you to learn, you can’t cease the wars and such. the such including child molestations which are often condemned here. If you cannot stop those why should God let perverts affect others forever? Those who side with the molesters will go down with them. Are you one of those? If not, why your concern about being destroyed? What will exists in our future already exists for him. That’s one advantage God has over us.

  32. Ted says:

    A month ago I went to the doctors surgery,
    I had pain in my R,leg and could hardly walk.

    There were other sufferers there too, a blind man,
    one unable to speak, an epileptic, and one
    experiencing bouts of madness.

    The doctor a devout Bible believer, diagnosed that
    we were all demon possessed and prescribed
    exorcism, he had no time for all this anti biotic
    stuff and modern mumbo jumbo.

    Sad to say, he’s been struck off, LOL

    • Caroline says:

      Ted, unfortunately Watchtower believes in demonic possession today. JW’s are taught to believe that anybody who doesn’t agree with Watchtower is being controlled by Satan and anybody in the “world” is worshipping the devil because the Bible says that the whole world is worshipping Satan.

      I believe there is evil in the world but if Satan is in control of the world and the world is worshipping Satan, then how can Jehovah co-exist along with Satan?

      People pray to Jehovah because they believe that Jehovah is everywhere, watching over them and can answer their prayers as long as those prayers are in accordance to Jehovah’s will.

      If Jehovah is everywhere and is watching over all mankind, then he would have to be co-existing with Satan. How does that work exactly?

      To say that Jehovah doesn’t do away with evil because he’s giving all mankind time to chose who they want to worship is the only answer left to believers why god allows wickedness. If there is a god, then why does he allow wicked people to continue to exist?

      Either God doesn’t care about wickedness or he can’t do anything about wickedness or he doesn’t exist. Either explanation you come up with, says he’s evil for allowing Satan (if he actually exists) to be letting thousands of innocent children die every day simply because they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time and it says to me that Satan has more power than Jehovah does, that is I believed in Satan, which I don’t.

      Why would I worship a god who is a weakling compared to Satan?

      The Bible says that Satan was thrown down to the earth by Jehovah, Jesus and the angels and woe for the earth because the devil knows he has a short amount of time left. Doesn’t it make sense that if Satan really wanted mankind to worship him over Jehovah because Satan would be more loved than Jehovah, then Satan would be working to make his system work. Why would it be woe for the earth because Satan would be working ti improve the earth, not make it worse and the bible does say that the whole world is worshipping Satan over and above Jehovah. Why doesn’t Jehovah appear on the earth and do something really good for mankind so that they’d worship him instead of Satan.

      Do you see how silly the whole thing is? You have to think when you read the bible. Don’t just read it and not let the words sink into your head. If you think about it when you read it, you will question everything you read and not let a book of fiction written over 2,000 years ago rule your life and take that silly blood card out of your wallet and stop being afraid of being put into a situation where you might need a blood transfusion or die and put your life in the hands of an imaginary god who does not even exist.

      • Caroline says:

        Ted, I wasn’t trying to convince you of Satan or not believing in the Bible. I know you think as I do, I think, anyway.

        I was speaking mostly to believers in Watchtower and the Bible and messenger who keeps being the devils advocate when it comes to sticking up for Jehovah and the bible.

  33. Ted says:

    Forgot to mention, doctor gave us the reasons for his
    diagnoses ,–> Blindness Matt,12:22- muteness Matt 9:32-33-
    lameness Luke 13, 11, 16- epilepsy, Matt,17:14-18- and
    madness Mark 5:1-13.

    can’t help thinking , his obsession with the bible held him
    back. Maybe if he allowed himself a little doubt, or heaven
    forbid, became an atheist, Maybe then he would have made
    progress and not remained stuck in the past.

    • dee2 says:

      Ted, Caroline,

      This demon thing is rather puzzling.

      Before casting the demons down to the earth didn’t God know that the demons will invade our minds when our minds are blank (Matthew 12:43 – 45)?

      Why didn’t Jesus tell God that unleashing the demons on the earth would pose a serious threat to the blank minds of humans?

      Yet god cleansed the heavens of those pesky demons in order to protect his spiritual family and unleashed the demons on the earth (Revelation 12:7-12) for them to invade our blank minds.

      • dee2 says:

        ******Jesus gave such a stern warning about blank minds being invaded by demons (Matthew 12:43 – 45) yet God nevertheless unleashed the demons on us.

  34. Ted says:

    @Caroline, You know from experience how WT
    promotes Satan, whether all the gb believe it
    I can’t say, but it’s certainly an effective tool for
    mind control, you’re either on JHVHs side or
    Satan’s,- No middle ground.–>

    There’s a real Satan Phobia cultivated. Just
    recently I heard of a brother that I knew, he’s
    well into his 90s, but he’s only here in body his
    mind has completely gone ( was a lovely man) .

    His wife who is quite a bit younger believes his
    condition is due to demon possession. It’s
    completely irrational, but that’s how deeply
    embedded the brainwashing burrows into some
    of their minds.

    • Caroline says:

      Ted, I believed in demon possession too before I “woke” up and finally started actually thinking about what I was reading in the bible and realized it was not “inspired” as in god breathed after all.

      I too was afraid to watch any tv show like Bewitched or shows about ghosts or magic or learn yoga or take self defense classes or get hypnotized and on and on where demons could take over my mind, according to Watchtower. How many kids played their music backwards and heard Satan and threw their music away because Satan was using music to control people?

      I might have been one of those parents who threw away a wizard toy. I was afraid to buy 2nd hand clothes because the people selling that stuff might have had a Ouija board, afraid that my doors would be opening and closing all by themselves because their stuff was accompanied by legions of demons. I remember one young Witness who threw away all her furniture more than once because she was sure it was demonized. The Witness husband couldn’t take anymore of her craziness and left her for another sane woman. .

      Religion loves to use Satan to control people’s minds and I know first hand how good it works. Where would religion be if they didn’t have Satan?

  35. dee2 says:

    Kudos to the NT writers and Catholic Church et. al. who turned a myth – Adam & Eve – into reality. They really had me there for a while.

    Imagine that, Christianity is based on mythology.

    The funny thing about all of this is that when I was in high school, my Biology teacher who was/is a nun, told me that some of the accounts in the Bible are fables and legends and stories about events which did not actually occur.

    I of course was shocked by what she said given my JW indoctrination and brainwashing, not to mention how JWs are poisoned against Catholics.

    • outandabout says:

      Hi messenger……I find it sad that you hold out no hope that mankind can create a better world but I understand why you think that, in fact, you positively need to think that. All cool.

      But messenger, mankind is on the cusp of being able to identify undesirable traits in our makeup with a simple DNA test. Theres talk of Jehovah altering our DNA with an apple, so there’s a precedent. We know certain chemicals and radiation can alter our genes. We breed animals. Cross pollination happens in nature, so everything’s not set in stone.

      The day will come when highly undesirable traits will be weeded out of the population by identifying those traits in the womb. If we can do that, why shouldn’t we. If we can do what God wants all by ourselves, should we still be condemned for it? That was the point of my previous comment.

      And as for war, yes there are some terrible weapons out there but those same weapons are serving a purpose by actually holding off war and forcing people to shut up and listen to each other. Instant worldwide communication aids in helping people to see that we’re all in the same boat and helps better understanding of each other. Instant communication has also caused people in less fortunate countries to see at a glance what they have and haven’t got and how they’re being used and controlled by their leaders which in turn has caused upset and rebellion.

      The problems of the world don’t lie with with the average person on the street.. It lies with the tyrants who make up a tiny amount of the population, so why would a God kill 7 billion people because of a corrupt few thousand?

      If you care to explore Our World in Data online, messenger, you’ll come away with a more balanced view of the world. Always remember that old Latin phrase – ‘non illegitimate carborundum’, which when translated means – ‘don’t let the bastards wear you down’.

      Peace, man.

      • messenger says:

        Two points buddy: 1. If mankind gets a weapon that could destroy a whole nation with one shot, but might split the Earth in two then would aiming that at a nation hostile to yours make you feel safer or in a more dangerous situation? If the latter is true, then please note the current weapons aimed at nations can ruin your day just as badly as the one I described.
        2. Do you seriously think all the billions of people on this planet would go along with the governments and scientific communities changing their genes and thus changing who they are or who their children will be just to remove what you consider bad traits? Those type of decisions might be used to remove present or potential diseases that’s all. The population would never go along with that idea changing the personality of their offspring. Oh, and according to your presentation would they do that for all people, even third world poor? Or would they leave the poor people alone to continue to steal from and shoot everyone else? Also, people who want to take what others have or use others would never go along with those desires being removed from themselves or their offspring. According to your claim those are the folks in power, the ones with bad traits. Though that’s not true do you think people on top are going to give that up? They never have, and never will unless forced. And as long as they hold power they cannot be forced to. There will be no enlightenment of society that puts everyone on an equal playing field without supernatural intervention. History proves that.

        As far as any existing power that you attempt to claim has some sort of modern day perfect or semi-perfect society like, what did you claim it was? Was it Sweden? Do you realize what would happen if they ever start behaving in a way which was severely detrimental to the interests of America and Western Europe? Money and power control the world like it always has, noting else. True morality has its place here, but morality is not the chief concern of controlling powers rather it is used for the sake of acquiring the other two benefits (money and power).

        Existing as a worker-bee as most people spend their whole lives doing it’s might be difficult to see my claim because it is never admitted to by those ruling anything. Nevertheless those are the controlling interests in practically every organization I know about, not just nations. And not just Watchtower. In the course of running my business I dealt with about a thousand other businesses and business owners, and I knew them personally. I didn’t see your view held by any of them. Neither have I seen it held by any of the organization heads I’ve worked for. Forget about fairness. It doesn’t exist here. Self interest is what exists. I forget, are you American, or British? Look into your country’s history, the part they call their “Manifest Destiny.”

  36. Ted says:

    Hi, outandabout, Don’t forget, Messenger doesn’t need
    to check out any internet sites. He’s in the very privileged
    position, one of the very, very few humans whom God
    has personally contacted and revealed the future to.
    We can’t follow that! It’s a waste of time trying.

    • messenger says:

      True Ted. And you claimed to have believed in some of our experiences, as I remember you claimed to have been an elder, presenting yourself as believing in the scriptures which contain hundreds of claims like mine. So, did you actually believe, or did you just attach yourself to the beliefs of others for some other reason than your own belief? If you actually believed and now have made an incorrect choice denying that while thinking you gained enlightenment then you have actually slipped into darkness, and I’m pretty sure you remember the scriptures that speak of such a state in an individual.

  37. Ted says:

    Hi Messenger. A genuine question. If God is still contacting
    people through visions dreams etc, it’s of little value to the
    rest of humanity unless we know what’s been revealed,
    “where is the new book with all this supplementary info”?
    Why don’t you start it off and have the honour of being the
    first of the modern prophets? –>

    You’d soon have many devoted followers, and it’s a proven
    money spinner. Take it from Ted, formerly an impressionable
    young man, but now “Much Older and Wiser”

    • messenger says:

      Ted whether you’ve proven to be wiser or more foolish will be clear in the future. If you made the wrong choice and developed a false belief that proves damaging to you that would prove you became more foolish. As far as your mockery of what God does, I’d say that’s a foolish choice. What good would a new book do for you? You don’t believe the one you already read that was written by people God communicated with.

      Christ said even if someone was sent back from the dead many of you would not believe. At least admit to yourself to shed the copout, as if a sign would cause you to follow God. Christ spoke of those always asking for proof to prove something to them they didn’t want to believe or follow in the first place. God knows the issue is choice not proof. That’s a good reason why God makes no great gesture to prove himself to you. Why should he?

      • Caroline says:

        messenger, are you counting your time here? You never look at any of the scriptures that we have pointed out to you and you keep coming back with the same old tired out cliches over and over again, expecting those of us who don’t “believe” in the god of the Hebrew scriptures, thinking if you just repeat them over and over again that that is supposed to make us believe in that god.

        The only scriptures you came up with was Psalms 78 and I had a very good reply showing that instead of showing Jehovah’s mercy, that whole chapter showed what an unmerciful god Jehovah is but my comment has been in moderation for days but that whole chapter is an epic fail if you are trying to come up with even just one good scripture about Jehovah from the Hebrew scriptures.

        I will ask you to look up just that one scripture at Psalm 137:9 again about how believers were to be happy to dash babies against the rocks.

        Try as hard as you can, you will be hard-pressed to find any fictional character in all the books that have ever been written (except for the Bible) and you won’t find any character portrayed in any other book down through the centuries that the hero in those books that would do such horrible things to innocent babies in those books but that fictional character (Jehovah) is your hero and you expect that because that fictional book says to worship that fictional god, that just because it says to worship that fictional horrible blood thirsty god that we are supposed to worship it too.

        Dream on.

        • outandabout says:

          So, Caroline….are you suggesting that Jehovah is a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ type of character? The type of person who’d be a bad role model and bad father? Well, that doesn’t matter because he’s god and he does as he likes, end of story. If you’re expecting justice from Jehovah, forget it. The only type of justice will be of the rednecked bigot variety. Would you like the phone number for the Dalai Lama? Now there’s an example, but he’s still gonna fall backwards into that chasm when it opens up in the street on smiting day…… probably for being too damn good.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Caroline, I almost fell off my chair when you were saying to Messenger that he never looks at any of the scriptures that you lot have pointed out to him. That’s all. Nearly fell off my chair.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, he admits it and if he does read those scriptures and still worships the god of the Hebrew scriptures then I can do is only shake my head in wonderment at how he could possibly love a god like that.

            The only thing I can think of is that he has absolutely no moral compass or he’s nuts because he admires that god, no matter how disgusting that god is or he doesn’t read those scriptures because he wants to keep his head in the sand.

            Does he read those scriptures? Do you know for sure? Are you messenger so that you would know?

            Way back in 1794 already Thomas Paine wrote om
            The Age of Reason”:

            Whenever I read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon rather than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind,; and, for my part, I sincerely
            detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”

            I do read the bible and I abhor any real person or a fictional person who delights in killing babies like what the bible is full of. at the orders of Jehovah.

            If that is the kind of person or god that you admire, than I think there is something wrong with you mentally and I will not apologize to anyone for saying that.

        • messenger says:


          Honestly Caroline, I don’t know if I even shared Psalm 78 with you, as you mentioned above. But if you say so I’ll take it I did. I’m not going back to look it up, because that point is not important. I believe I mentioned this to you before, but again I might be wrong about this also, so I will say right now that I have no desire to get into a scriptural discussion with you. I see no point in it. The point that I do keep bringing up with you has nothing to do with any scriptures you write in your posts. It has to do with the nature of your arguments, precisely the style you argue in. Both you and dee2 appear to be deceptive to me (my opinion). Why are you claiming Jehovah did anything when you also claim he does not exist? You apparently argue two opposing positions in an attempt to get others to hate Jehovah as you do (my opinion). And then when confronted with that fact you say , “Oh I don’t hate him because he doesn’t exist.” My opinion is that your intention is to turn people away from Jehovah that do believe is him, similar to the opposing devil in Bible stories.

          A straight forward honest approach would be to attack the person or persons you feel you have a legitimate gripe against. And if Jehovah does not exist in your mind it could not be him, now could it? And true, I not only don’t read all your scriptures, I also don’t read all your posts. I’m under no obligation to that, and I see no point in doing so.


          • Caroline says:

            messenger, I am speaking of a fictional character (Jehovah) and you keep insisting that the god of the Hebrew scriptures is real. Do you have any evidence to prove that Jehovah is real and created the heavens and earth and killed the whole earth of humans and animals during the flood?

            You admit you don’t even read the Bible and yet you stick up for that despicable god of it. Why not read it first and then defend it? We have read it and that is why we can’t defend it and we do have the scriptures to prove our point.

            Until you actually take the time to read the Bible, I can’t understand why we are supposed to take anything you have to take seriously.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline, there is one of four things that’s happening with you or a combination from the four. Either you have poor reading skills, you have not read my posts though you tried to scold me once when I claimed not to have read someone else’s, you do not remember what I said in my posts, or you are lying about what I said. I never said I don’t read the Bible as you claimed above. What I said is I don’t read all the scriptures you posts or even all your posts.

            In pasts posts I stated I’ve read the whole Bible, and also that I used to give WT talks on a weekly basis, which would be impossible without reading the Bible because the brothers wouldn’t allow it. Have you ever seen any servant do that on a regular basis? I also stated I still attend the Kingdom Hall, and you know the Bible is read during every meeting, and all are encourage to follow along in their own Bibles. So why did you state I admit that I don’t even read the Bible?

            Here’s the point I’ve made about your comments that you always dodge. If you don’t believe in Jehovah why is it you speak about him at times like you do? If he’s fictional is your gripe with a fictional character? If it’s not why not address the real issue, the people you have a gripe with and why? Are we talking fiction here, or reality? Why not address who you feel is really responsible for all your complaints?

            Bible writers claim they had dealings with a real God or some of his representatives. It was none of this God said this but uhh I don’t think he really exists. Could you imagine how their writings would be taken if they communicated that way? So, what’s your story or reason for doing that? Are you afraid to admit that if God does not exist, and you cannot blame him for anything, then you’ll have to admit what I’ve claimed, the perverts are responsible for all the troubles on Earth and that gives you or your audience less hope people can solve problems they create? Is it easier blaming God while saying, we can fix everything? I don’t think so, the perverts are in the park. You cannot remove them. And even if you change your tune to blaming religion you’ll be in the same spot. What’s religion? Just admit here the perverts are in the park, and your best argument is to spin fantasy that we can remove them. Or continue with your boogie-man argument. Why talk scriptures when you can talk boogie-man?

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, I do read all of your posts and have been doing that now for months and I have yet to have you reply with even one of Jehovah’s commands from the Hebrew Scriptures that you would follow today and you keep saying that you can defend Jehovah, so please do that before insisting that he is the author of the Bible. You are still in Watchtower think. Even Watchtower has said if you only read the Bible without their literature that you would probably revert to apostate thinking and my line of thought that if you read the Bible without Watchtower literature or the Watchtower’s version of the Bible that you would turn atheist or at least lose faith in the god of the Bible.

            When I tell people about the real laws in the Law given to Moses, everybody always says that they don’t believe in that god but they probably do believe in a higher power.

            Again I will say that most people today do awful things because they are convinced their god is telling them to do it and the Bible is full of Jehovah told Moses this or Jehovah told Joshua this or Jehovah told David or any of the other prophets and those writings are thousands of years old and there is no way to know if they are fiction or what and so why wait on Jehovah to fix this earth when there is no evidence of that god that you are waiting on to fix things.

            Who says that you have to live in a paradise? It was Satan who said that Eve wouldn’t die and that is exactly what the Bible is full of. Do as Jesus or Jehovah says and you will live forever or burn in hell.

            It is sad to realize that maybe you only have one life when Watchtower has brainwashed you all your life that you will live forever and in the new order and you will be reunited with all your dead loved ones but there is nobody that has come back from death and only 2nd hand information from the gospels and no other writings to prove that Jesus lived and died and was resurrected outside of the Bible.

            If there was a man that did all those miracles, it would have made the history books which shows that Jesus was a legend and not a reality.

            Messenger, I also read the Bible too, just as you have and all of Jehovah’s Witnesses but we closed our minds to what it really was saying.

          • messenger says:


            You brought up several points. If I give you just ONE command from Jehovah in the Hebrew scriptures that I would obey as you keep asking for, will that be enough? or just enough for now but not later? Look up Genesis 1:28. I might as well start at the beginning, the first commandment.

            Here’s a ridiculous statement from your comment above,[ Again I will say that most people today do awful things because they are convinced their god is telling them to do it].t The only rationale I see in making such a statement is to talk trash about God or the Bible. If you believe that then according to you God tells husbands today to beat their wives, cheat on their wives, wives to cheat on husbands, everyone to lie, steal, molest kids, and go every hellish thing that’s done. You can understand why I don’t debate your arguments, can’t you?

            Oh, and in you comment above you stated, “even Watchtower says.” You also claim to have read all my posts. If you read my posts then why make that statement? You should have read I don’t care what WT says, in my opinion which has already been stated, WT is apostate and scripturally illiterate. One main reason people who just read the Bible that were JWs stop believing in WT is because most of WT’s teachings are not in the Bible. And some apostates still think WT teaches the Bible.

            And I didn’t say Jehovah killed the all animals on Earth during the flood. You said that. True Peter wrote the Earth was deluded with water, but it was also written in the Bible when Peter lived that the good news about Christ was preached in all the inhabited earth. So how do you know the world Peter referred to was not just an isolated part of it, just as the word earth was used used in other places, back in Peter’s day? You don’t know.

            As far as evidence God exists? You don’t have the evidence. Other people have it, including me. Just because you don’t have something doesn’t mean nobody has it. Sorry you don’t have the proof, but there are reasons for that. Maybe one day you’ll have it. You can be open that if God might exists you can have that hope. It’s up to you. What’s coming out of you now is hate about what you know nothing about. You know nothing and the people you listen to know nothing about it. Like you admit, both you and they have no evidence. So why claim that you do? Is it due to following people you think are smart? You did that with the governing body, and look where that got you. Now you’re doing it with people who admit they know nothing about God’s existence.

  38. Ted says:

    Dear Messenger, I do not entertain any expectation
    of future rewards therefore I cannot be disappointed,
    but you may be.

    I’m enjoying my second life right now, it began when
    I realised we only get one life.

    • Shibboleth says:


    • Imgonaburn. says:

      Love this! My second life began when I left the cult of jw. I have to say I’m happier now than I’ve ever been. If it doesn’t get any better than this then so be it. I can still say that I’ve never intentionally done anyone harm and I strive to be a good human. We don’t need to belong to any religious group to achieve that. If there is a god that can read hearts then why worry?

  39. outandabout says:

    Hi messenger, thanks for your reply but I think you missed my point. ‘Im talking about a world in maybe 50 – 100 yrs time. Its early days for gene research, but the writing is on the wall for genetic engineering of people in the future. I’m not talking about changing people already living. We have been able to identify Downs Syndrome in fetus’s for a long time already and identifying disease markers in DNA will be the next big thing and that will be followed by the identification of undesirable personality traits and…….good traits as well, for example, empathy and creativity. We start at the start and we end at the end. We’ll keep going until everything is unraveled. We’re not going to stop 10% of they way in and say that is enough. We won’t give up. I read where it’s accidentally been discovered during research that the gene marker that decides whether a person has wet or dry ear wax has been identified. Not much, but that shows that these things are possible and coming. Absolutely everything about us, even the way we are inclined to think and react is contained in our DNA and we will get there. If you think this is science fiction, think again. My Grandfather went from horse and cart to man on the moon. From Lanes Emulsion to brain surgery. Hang on to your hat messenger, it’s happening, but the question is, if we become as God wants, no murder, rape, narcissm all engineered and bred out and love and empathy engineered and bred in, would he still then murder us even though we got to the place he wanted us to be without his help?

    In answer to your question on whether on not we would allow this to happen the answer is yes, of course we will. If our survival depends on it, absolutely. Survival is what we’ve been about since day one. Survival of us and our offspring. Even God knows we will get there, thats why he hasn’t destroyed us.

    • Jennifer says:

      Hi outandabout,

      Are you familiar with a website called Deciding to be Better? I only discovered it yesterday
      and was impressed. It’s about helping people become better human beings and making
      positive changes in their communities and the world as a whole. The site discusses a lot of the points you are trying to get through to messenger. Looks like there is hope after all.

      • outandabout says:

        Hi Jenifer, thank you, I had a look. Yes there is goodness everywhere, if only we care to look. As an example of not looking for goodness; I happened to take my JW mother downtown the other day and instead of noticing the lovely display of flowers, the mother bending down and loving her baby in the pram, the old men smiling and shaking hands, cars stopping to let people cross, she only commented on the taxi with the mesh between the passenger and driver as ‘another sign’. The WT have stuffed my mother. Typical fundamentalist behaviour; they’re not at all interested in seeking truth, only constant reassurance that what they believe is true. Lookig for the bad.

    • messenger says:

      Two points buddy. First I agree that type of science will be used to prevent some diseases. I just don’t believe people would let the government, scientists, or doctors alter the personality of their unborn offspring. I wouldn’t. Some would, some wouldn’t, so where does that leave humanity? In the same position it currently is in. An those in power anywhere will not give it up, if they lose it won’t be because they hand it over. Naturally what you read on a web site about such technology will look promising. It’s like the Jetsons cartoons we used to view when we were kids and fantasized a future might be like that. Reality is greed exists and is a controlling factor in our world. Even if what you claim happened we would still grow old and die without divine intervention. I don’t consider that a perfect condition.

      Second point. I don’t understand why so many here are hung up on God destroying mass populations of people. If God exists and he is so hell bent on destroying everyone then why hasn’t he done that already? What’s he waiting for? This rhetoric you hear about his desire to destroy everyone is false. That’s not the Bible’s message. True JWs portray it that way, but other Christians I’ve listened to don’t. Don’t frame your view about the God of the Bible from JW teachings. The religion started out with some of the most apostate teachings and continues to promote new apostate teachings as it goes along. For instance, where in the Bible does it claim Christ will kill you forever for voting for Donald Trump, Hilary Clinton, or any politician? It doesn’t. It’s that type of apostate teaching that’s got a lot of ex-Witnesses on the stick about mass destruction for most of humanity. One scripture I’ve posted on this site several times is Revelation 3:10-look it up. It indicates the coming great tribulation referred to in the Bible is a time of tests, and later in Revelation we’re informed that a huge number of people come out of it alive-those who accept Christ during that testing period. The stubborn who refuse to are the ones that die, not the rest.
      The plain and simple message of the Bible is that God desires to help people not kill them, and that Christ was sent not just to tell but to prove that to us by coming here despite the fact wicked people would kill him.

      Some here have asked me what benefit does God’s contacting people today have for those that he does not contact. Maybe just the messages they share. With me I didn’t just see a future that already happened in my life, I saw that but I also saw the other side of the destruction you’re talking about. Things were different. The world didn’t look much different. What was different was my feeling and thought. And that was true of the ones I saw, and spoke to. There was a feeling of complete contentment. There was nothing to worry about or even to consider in my mind as a temporary worry or problem to fix. Problems didn’t exists. And even painful things experienced now were only viewed then as something that I experienced in the past without the pain attached. Scientists cannot bring that condition about.

      • outandabout says:

        Hi messenger, I can see you’re in a good place and I’m happy for that. I’ll agree that predictions of a future world are usually off mark because we should have been zipping around in hover cars by now. But some things are undeniable and right on our doorstep, or should I say at the end of the microscope. We can see what DNA is and we know what it’s for. That is one helluva thing, messenger, and we’re going to damn well manipulate it. I understand your immediate denial but the line on the graph of scientific advancement has shot almost vertical in recent times. We are now going to teach our own immune systems to identify and kill cancer cells and it could be available in three years. We’re getting self driving electric cars which will release us from oil dependency and will leave the middle east looking for a market for sand and dates. The amount of solar energy that hits the earth in one hour is enough to power our current energy needs for one year and the advancement in solar technology is totally rocketing. The solar panel you buy today could be outdated next month.
        You say that we were once perfect and god changed that because of an apple. If it’s possible for god to punish us by altering our DNA and we discovered how to alter it back, shouldn’t that be a good thing and why shouldn’t we do it? Shouldn’t god be pleased or is it not only ” I love you but if you don’t love me back, I’ll kill you”, but also “It doesn’t matter how good you become, I will still kill you”? It’s looks to me, messenger, that it’s not all all about whether we are perfect or not, but rather, whether we believe in god or not. Not believing in god is the actual sin, not being imperfect. Original sin is a lie put out by bible writers and they never knew that man would one day have the capability to scientifically unravel that lie.

        • dee2 says:


          [“Original Sin is a lie”]

          This must be one of the most reworked stories in Bible history.

          The Hebrews borrowed, adapted, reworked, reinterpreted, reformatted the “Enuma Elish” Mesopotamian myth to create their own Adam & Eve creation story.

          The New Testament writers then extrapolated upon it to arrive at a doctrine of “original sin”.

          The JWs further extrapolated upon it to arrive at a doctrine of “original purpose” yet to be fulfilled as a Garden of Eden throughout the earth.

          Interestingly, according to Genesis 3:17-19 only Adam and Eve were cursed. There is no mention of an extension of the curse to Adam and Eve’s children and later descendants anywhere in the OT.

          So the early Jews did not interpret the Adam and Eve story as something with universal implications. The story was understood either as allegory or an ancient tragedy. 

          • outandabout says:

            Hi Dee, I’m not going to pretend I know about what you mention and I ‘ll just trust you know what you’re talking about. Upon hearing the Adam and Eve story as a kid, I thought it was ridiculous nonsense and have given it zero credence ever since, but to think it’s the basis of a serious belief system which grown intelligent adults are willing to die for……..words fail me.

          • dee2 says:


            The Adam & Eve story is ridiculous nonsense on many levels.

            If a snake started chatting with you, wouldn’t that raise an eyebrow or two??? Somehow, Eve jumped right into a casual conversation with a snake, as if it were an everyday thing.

            Archaeology has proven that death existed before Adam & Eve. Archaeology indicates an older age for mankind than that indicated by the account of Adam & Eve.

            Either Adam married his sister
            Adam married his clone!

            Eve was constructed from Adam’s DNA, using his rib. Eve had to be a clone of Adam. If God duplicated Adam’s X chromosome to make 2 X’s Eve would be Female, but still related in every way to Adam.

            She would share the other 44 chromosomes with him. This would make her a Fraternal Twin. Eve is called his “wife” but can a brother and sister marry and not produce idiots for children?

            Fundamentalists say: “God made Adam and Eve – not Adam and Steve.”

            However, we know that any sample of DNA from a person is specific to that person and does not change. That fact is helping to solve crimes, establish paternity and getting people released from death row. Since the source material came from a dude, Adam, then the sample would be an exact genetic match for Adam.

            That means that God did make Adam and Steve after all!

        • messenger says:

          Outandabout I don’t believe that the idea of original sin starting on the Earth is correct. The Bible never claimed that, and that idea, considering eternity is forever sounds very unlikely. You are correct it is a fabricated idea, but not by Bible writers but by those who interpreted those documents while adding ideas to what was written. And also an argument was presented earlier by Rick that sin did not genetically alter mankind. He might very well be correct, because again that’s not what the Bible says. Its another extended thought added to a Bible interpretation. It could very well be that God uses his ability to keep things alive if and when he chooses to. He doesn’t have to alter genes to do that. And altering genes cannot do it according to scriptures anyway. Bible believers think Christ had perfect genes, yet he died. Again, just changing genes is not what’s necessary to live forever. Either God has to exist as I believe, or there have to be things going on in invisible universes we don’t know about that cause us to continue consciousness after human death, the transference of our consciousness to another universe we know nothing about.

          I don’t believe the Bible teaches God’s main purpose for us is to love him. I believe he does what works, as you claim humanities quest is. Doing that the type of world you speak of would only work if the primary human characteristic is love. I believe that’s why it’s stressed in the Bible, and because God’s has that characteristic also. The Bible stories that others here find fault with were recorded to show us the current state we’re in and how that state doesn’t work. For instance, the Bible never claims Lot offering his daughters to perverts was sanctioned by God. But others here failing to understand that use historical writings to claim God sanctioned such things. Its similar to the way Christians added meanings to their interpretations, such as defective genes come from sin, or original sin beginning on Earth.

          • outandabout says:

            Hi messenger, it seems to me your belief in a God is not altogether absolute. You are not permitted to think bout parallel universes and such because that requires free thought, and free thinkers are the agents of Satan, so pull yer head in!
            But if you want to venture down that path, consider this; we know that the universe is expanding outwards. There’s thought that one day the energy required to make that happen will run out and then all the matter in the universe will start to move inwards and eventually compress to a singularity so dense and so small that it will explode outwards again and repeat the cycle. How many millions or trillions of times has this happened already? And each time it happens is never the same as the previous. Next time there could be no Earth’s at all or multiple Earth’s. Life, or no life.
            This idea may not appeal to you messenger, but if you’re prepared to entertain the idea of a parallel universe, you’ve opened the door to a lot more than you realize.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger you have no business saying:

            “The Bible stories that others here find fault with were recorded to show us the current state we’re in and how that state doesn’t work. For instance, the Bible never claims Lot offering his daughters to perverts was sanctioned by God. But others here failing to understand that use historical writings to claim God sanctioned such things.”

            You don’t read the scriptures that e bring forward as “stories”. Those are real bible scriptures, not “stories”. Stories are fiction, not historical facts.

            Show us how those “stories” that we mention show us the current state of affairs. The only thing thing you can think of is the story of original sin being the cause of current affairs and 2 Peter 2:7 does sanction Lot’s offering his two daughters to the “perverts” because the bible calls Lot “righteous”.

            I will say again and again that anybody who reveres and loves a god who “delights” in the killing of babies has to be sick in the head and the bible is full of scriptures where Jehovah not only “delights” in ripping babies out of their mother’s bodies and smashes those babies against rocks, but orders the Isreaelites over and over again to kill men, women and babies by ripping them out of their mother’s bellies and delights in the raping of women and demands and accepts human burnt sacrifices to win wars and end famines.

            You refuse to look up those scriptures so stop defending that god and saying that Jehovah’s main characteristic is love.

            If the Bible says that Jehovah is love that is circular reasoning. Show us his love.

            Put up or shut up about his love.

            Any time you say “I believe” you are offering up your opinion. Show us from the Bible instead of your opinions of why we die and not what you believe in okay? The Bible is what you are supposed to be defending, not your opinions.

          • outandabout says:

            No body is ‘claiming’ anything, Rick. These are just ideas and absolute. Unlike yours.

          • Hi Messenger,

            [I don’t believe that the idea of original sin starting on the Earth is correct. The Bible never claimed that, and that idea, considering eternity is forever sounds very unlikely.]

            You’re responding to Outandabout, but I hope you don’t mind me responding. I jumped over to the Wikipedia article on original sin. The introduction agrees with your comment:

            “The concept of original sin was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon in his controversy with certain dualist Gnostics.”

            As regards Jehovah’s Witnesses, Wikipedia says:

            “According to the theology of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, all humans are born sinners, because of inheriting sin, corruption, and death from Adam.”

            Which is consistent with my understanding of the faith.

            [Either God has to exist as I believe, or there have to be things going on in invisible universes we don’t know about that cause us to continue consciousness after human death, the transference of our consciousness to another universe we know nothing about.]

            I’m not sure understand this either/or point. If God does not exist and at death our conscious existence ends, would that not be consistent with what we experience?

            [For instance, the Bible never claims Lot offering his daughters to perverts was sanctioned by God.]

            I agree. The text merely reports Lot as saying, “Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them.” In context, Lot is offering up his daughters for what would surely be a case of rape, if not death, to protect the men who he had insisted come and stay at his house.

            A believer may take note the girls were not harmed by the crowd and in fact God’s power was used to protect both Lot and his household by striking the mob with blindness.

            And that’s all we have.

            Moving beyond that gets into interpretation of the text. What follows is my view, which may be spot on or way off in the weeds.

            To me it is clear the author of Genesis placed Abraham ahead of Lot. Abraham is a Biblical hero, Lot, not so much. Thus you see Lot making a number of bad choices, needing to be rescued by Abraham even. Thus Lot’s actions are not that laudable, yet he is not entirely an enemy of the Genesis authors either. All this, I believe, is a setup to denigrate, to an extent, Moabites and Ammonites. There may also be an interplay between nomadic people, being favored vs city dwellers.


          • dee2 says:


            IMHO, the fact that Lot was saved from Sodom’s destruction by God’s angels (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19) and also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8) is a clear indication that Lot’s actions were sanctioned by God.

          • Hi Dee2,

            [IMHO, the fact that Lot was saved from Sodom’s destruction by God’s angels (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19) and also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8) is a clear indication that Lot’s actions were sanctioned by God]

            Certainly the text does not condemn Lot’s actions. But to Messenger’s point, it doesn’t specifically state God’s view of Lot’s actions. 2 Peter is informative in terms of Christian thought, which is end-of-days focused. Peter sees a world lined up for destruction and sees Sodom and Gomorah as a model.

            Peter does indeed call Lot righteous, but he doesn’t comment specifically on his actions.

            Alas, only in modern times and only in some of the world have we embraced the idea of women having rights equal to men. Unfortunately it is likely Peter wouldn’t have been overly concerned that Lot’s daughters were being offered for rape and possible death.

            Thus one of the take away lessons from the story of Lot, is we should not take the advancement of women’s rights for granted. By extension, by speaking up in defense of our homosexual family and friends we can also show bravery.


          • outandabout says:

            sorry Rick, I meant those idea’s ore NOT absolute

          • dee2 says:


            That was a very insightful comment.

            Yet I do wonder, for what actions was Lot considered favourably by God so that God sent angels to save him from Sodom’s destruction (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19)?
            For what actions was Lot also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8)?

      • Imgonaburn says:

        Whatever JWs say about the bible doesn’t alter the fact that it actually does depict a God of destruction, vengeance and cruel manipulative control. If Jehovah can read hearts why is it even necessary to adhere to any books written by men??

  40. Doc Obvious says:

    Watchtower Babble and Tract Society is way too politically correct. All those plethora of rules that Watchtower imposes on people are a burden.

    This happened in Jesus Christ’s day with the Pharisees. He saw that the Jewish leaders were too involved in creating numerous rules and causing the common people to be burdened by them for not obeying a certain rule.

    Jesus taught his true worshipers that there are 2 commandments. They are considered the Greatest Commandments. Why on earth would you need more than these two commandments?

    Watchtower needs to stop being so politically correct and concentrate on Jesus Christ’s example.