The Jehovah’s Witness religion has long been known for its vocal disapproval of the LGBT community. On a doctrinal level it teaches that any practicing homosexuals are sinful and deserve to die, and that very soon God will kill any such person at the upcoming battle of Armageddon.
On an everyday level, whilst it does not press for government action or laws against the LGBT community due to a strict doctrine of total political disconnection, it does directly persecute it’s own members who are LGBT by requiring them to remain celibate for life. Should any of them refuse to do so, the religion demands that they be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends, with the additional threat of shunning for any family or friends who refuse to comply.
So a JW born into the religion and baptised as a young child, which is increasingly the case, and who grows up to discover they are gay, will be faced with a choice: deny their sexuality forever or lose everyone they have ever known.
In recent years Watchtower, the organisation that controls the Witness religion, has released a large number of videos that make strong anti-LGBT statements, and this year is no exception. However, it seems that the rhetoric is on this topic escalating to a worrying degree, as Witnesses are now being instructed to become directly confrontational when encountering gays, lesbians, or others who do not fit Watchtower’s narrow view of approved sexual identities.
One such example of the escalation in rhetoric is the new Watchtower produced video drama, “Remember the Wife of Lot.”
Remember the Wife of Lot.
The official webpage of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, JW.org, has just released a series of videos that will play at the religions upcoming series of 2017 worldwide conventions. One of the videos is a three part drama entitled “Remember the Wife of Lot.” It can be viewed here.
Intended to be a modern day parallel to the Biblical tale of Lot in the last days of Sodom and Gomorrah, Watchtower states on JW.org;
The warning Jesus gave nearly 2,000 years ago is more important than ever. See how Brian and Gloria learn to protect their family from the dangers Jesus warned about.
One of those dangers is, of course, the insidious and sinful LGBT community.
There are two scenes in which Watchtower’s message on homosexuality is showcased, but one of them really stood out to me as requiring more refutation than usual. Not just because of the nature of the teachings themselves; by this point I’m very familiar with the anti-LGBT message Watchtower promotes and sadly it no longer shocks me quite the way it would someone encountering JW.org for the first time. Rather it was the sheer bad manners the Witness characters displayed in the sequence that dropped my jaw.
Let’s set the scene.
Brian and Gloria are two Witness parents, whose daughter has invited some of her workmates back for a meal. One of these workmates is a girl called Tess. During the mealtime conversation, it emerges that Tess is considered to be one of the top interns at the company. The JW wife, Gloria, tells Tess that her parents must be very proud, and Tess replies:
“My Moms are both really proud of me. I was raised by two wonderful women.”
And thus begins one of the most excruciating, clumsy and crass examples of homophobic propaganda in recent Witness history.
The dinner party from Hell
What happens when Tess drops this “bombshell?”
Remember, the Witness characters have been taught that homosexuality is a grave sin worthy of death at Jehovah’s God’s hands when he brings a worldwide Armageddon, which Witnesses believe to be coming soon. Any baptised Witness who is unrepentantly romancing the same-sex is required to be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends.
Make no mistake, in the eyes of the Witness characters in this scene, Tess’ parents are doing something revolting and deserve to die unless they split up, become Witnesses and either marry men or remain celibate.
However, given the fact that Tess is not a Witness and is simply responding to a passing question, it seems like the polite thing to do would be to simply move on and continue the conversation about the internship. Yet instead the Witness characters act like she’s just slapped them all in the face and spat on the table. Their jaws drop, they stammer, and the father Brian gives Tess a stern stare of anger and disgust.
Next, in a display of what I can only describe as social incompetence of the worst order, the Witness character Gloria learns forward with a concerned expression and replies in a horrified tone that she’s just found her that her assistant at work is gay.
Seriously. This is what she does. Watch the video.
Gloria’s tone of voice and expression make it sound like she’s telling everyone that her assistant is a rapist, or has highly contagious mutant space-rabies, or just started their very own Adolf Hitler fan club.
Now, quite why she would say that to a person whose has just casually mentioned they have same sex parents, and in that tone of voice, I have no idea. She’s either deliberately being atrociously rude, or has absolutely no grasp of appropriate social interaction, or perhaps suffers from some unholy and catastrophic mix of the two.
Quite rightly, Tess demands to know what’s wrong with a same sex couple, since its clear her parents are being directly insulted. Incredibly, the video actually presents Tess as being the inconsiderate, rude one for daring to speak of and defend her parents in front of the JW family. Apparently, when asked about her parents, she should have either denied the existence of her loving mothers, or edited their genders so as to coddle the fragile sensitivities of the Witnesses.
The scene continues, with another guest joining the pushback against the JW’s and arguing in support of same sex relationships. Since this is a Watchtower video, the pushback doesn’t go into very much detail, as Watchtower has never been one to give a fair hearing the opposite side of the argument. However, even by the standards of the scene itself, it’s actually the immoral and wicked people of “Satan’s world” who end up coming across as the reasonable ones, and the righteous JW “heroes” who end up looking like they possess all the tact and social grace of a pack of flatulent, drunken hyenas.
For example: at one point Gloria appears to concede that maybe gays and lesbians are born that way, but Brian quickly intervenes and squashes this idea. He gives a lecture about everyone having free will, and outlines his sales pitch for Watchtower’s interpretation of the Bible, which condemns the woman’s parents loving relationship as harmful. Incredibly, he also states that Witnesses “don’t push their religion down anyone’s throat,” despite the fact that he and Gloria have just turned a passing mention of same sex parentage into a lengthly and toe-curling excuse to harangue and chastise the child of those parents!
What if the tables were turned?
Let’s switch this around.
Let’s say that Tess had Jehovah’s Witness parents, and that Brian and Gloria are non-Witnesses.
During the meal, it casually comes up in passing that Tess’s parents are Witnesses. Brian and Gloria react in shock, pulling faces of disgust, and then Gloria replies in horrified tones that she recently found out that her assistant is a Witness. When the other guests point out how rude Brian and Gloria are being, the couple do not apologise but rather they double down, lambasting Tess about how sinful her Witness parents are, and deliver a patronising sermon to try to push their own beliefs.
Can you imagine how rude that would be?
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness reading this, I’m sure you understand how hurt and upset that child of Witness parents would feel. Surely now you can understand how hurt and upset the child of a same sex couple would feel if treated in like manner? Even if you fully subscribe to Watchtower’s teachings on homosexuality, you must surely admit that the way the Witness characters acted in this scene is incredibly obnoxious and rude.
Yet this is clearly the way that the Governing Body wants you to treat anyone who casually mentions their sexuality or that of their loving parents.
How do you feel about that?
Why does JW.org create these videos?
If you are not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you may simply pass this video off as a weird bit of badly acted, poorly written, socially backward storytelling, but I’d urge you to understand the following point:
These videos are not simply intended to be entertainment for Jehovah’s Witnesses. These videos are directly intended to be training for all Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.
This video is directly intended to demonstrate to Witnesses how to handle a situation where a person casually mentions that they have two fathers, or two mothers. Witnesses worldwide are now expected to hassle, harass, and lecture them. Letting the comment simply go unmentioned is not on the list of options presented here, and every Witness watching the video will understand this.
If you think we’re exaggerating, in 2016 JW.org brought out a CGI children’s cartoon/instructional video explicitly encouraging young Witness children to lecture the young children of same-sex couples about the sinful nature of their parent’s relationship and the need to become Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to avoid death and gain paradise.
The video quite rightly drew worldwide condemnation, not only due to the homophobic nature of the message, but also due to the incredibly crass way it encouraged Witness children to harass their classmates and other non-witnesses in such a rude, unpleasant manner. Sadly it appears that nothing has changed at JW.org, if this latest video is anything to go by.
Now, it has to be said than many actual Witnesses will probably be far too polite to actually take the advice given here (and others might be reluctant to follow this advice from a sheer sense of social self preservation if nothing else) but nonetheless it illustrates how the leadership of Watchtower views the LGBT community and how it expects its followers to behave towards them.
Quite frankly, setting all issues of theology and the human rights of the LGBT community to one side, it appears that the leadership and scriptwriting teams at JW.org are in desperate need of a strong lesson in manners.
For a more detailed examination of the homophobia on display in “Remember the Wife of Lot,” check out the following videos and articles from JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans.
Article in the Huffington Post on the homophobic aspects of Remember the Wife of Lot
You can also watch a more detailed breakdown of the wider aspects of cult manipulation and abusive doctrine in Remember the Wife of Lot as part of this video from Lloyd Evans. The link will take you to the part of the video where the drama is discussed.
Follow me on twitter @covertfade
Follow Lloyd Evans on twitter @cedarsjwsurvey
Follow JWSurvey on twitter @jwsurveyorg
Wrong Way Watchtower. Watchtower is going the wrong way.
It always has. Misinterpretations, pyramids, rules to define rules, restrictions to define restrictions, kangaroo courts that don’t look into issues that are appropriate and do look into inappropriate matters, lies that overlap lies.
But we have nice suits, and we look good dressed up. We’ll make that a requirement for you too, if you want to get baptized.
Got my Interweb working intermittently. Golly Jee Whillakers, I must be sum kinda freakin’ computer wiz! I may get myself 1 o’ them Facebooks next. Or maybe just spend all day on Twitter like my personal hero God-Emperor Trump. :D
Ennywayz, 2 any & all jws who DARE to approach my door, THIS is the reception u can expect to receive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uvad9uSc9k
Ricardo, you should continue with Isaiah chapter 1 in verses 19 and 20:
“If you people show illingness and do listen, the good of the land you will eat. But if you people refuwse and are actually rebellious, with a sword you will be eaten up; for the very mouth of Jehovah has spoken it.”
What about Amos 5:25-26:
“Was it sacrifices and gift offerings that you people brought near to me in the wilderness for forty year, O house of Israel?” And you will certainly carry SakKuth your king and Kaiwan, your images, the star of your god, whom you made for yourselves.” (This is Jehovah speaking)
Now put that scripture together with Acts 7:43:
“But it was the tent of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan that you took up, the figures which you made to worship them. Consequently I will deport you beyond Babylon.”
Stephen said it was the “tent’ of Moloch that the Israelites took up. If you read the first actual stone tablets that Moses brought down from the mountain, it was the instructions for the “tent”.
So, putting all those scriptures together, the Israelites were worshipping the Canaanite gods who demanded animal and human burnt sacrifices during those 40 years they were in the wilderness.
How do you feel about the ten commandments and the law now?
@Caroline, I started answering above. Let me repeat. If the Jews were not worshipping Jehovah with a sincere desire to please him and show him respect, then their sacrifices were not really to him, were they? If they were being influenced by false beliefs coming from the surrounding nations worshipping their false gods, then the Jews were not really worshipping Jehovah. Their hearts were being sidelined by other gods, seduced by other gods. Their worship was kidnapped. I don’t know what WT says about this, but that’s how I would understand it. Thus I see the need for true worship. Thus the need to not only obey Jehovah but to do so out of appreciation for his love and standards, with a heart of gratitude. In viewing the ten commandments and law as something unique for the Jews, a law code unmatched by their neighbouring nations, I feel awe that Jehovah gave them such a high moral base.
@ Ricardo
WT says the same. Probably every Christian org agrees on this one. The Jews were obviously worshipping the false God Moloch, along with their worship of Jehovah. That’s why God called their behavior adultery. That sort of behavior happened much more than once, e.g. the high places that were torn down represented false gods also. It’s pretty clear in the scriptures. I’ve never heard a Christian speak on this subject that misunderstood it, JW or non-JW.
Take care buddy,
Oh, or am I writing that to myself?
Hi Caroline,
I appreciate you’re addressing Ricardo, however I hope you don’t mind if I share my view of this material.
Acts 7 contains the speech of Stephen before being stoned to death. He begins by establishing common ground, referring to the “God of glory” who appeared to their “forefather Abraham.” From there he turns his focus to Moses and specifically that Moses was rejected by Israel, yet chosen by God. In this Stephen is clearly drawing a parallel between Moses and Jesus. Stephen feels his fellow Jews are off track in rejecting Jesus and he draws on Amos to show they’ve been off track before.
I believe the “tent of Moloch” mentioned in verse 43 is different than the “tent” mentioned favorably in the verse 44. The former is a reference to false worship, whereas the later is a reference to the tabernacle that eventually became the temple.
Acts 7:42b reads: It was not to me that you made offerings and sacrifices for 40 years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel?
Amos 5:25 reads: Did you bring me sacrifices and gift offerings For those 40 years in the wilderness, O house of Israel?
The source material at Amos 5:25 is a rhetorical question. Is Amos asking to suggest they had not really worshiping God correctly all those years? Or is he suggesting they had pure worship in the past, but now they were so off in the weeds, that they would be taking their false Gods “Sakkuth” and “Kaiwan” with them into exile?
The translators of NWT have clearly picked the first choice in how they word Acts 7:42. Yet this seems at odds with how others have translated.
NIV: Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?
KJV: O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
YLT: Slain beasts and sacrifices did ye offer to Me forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel?
I do believe that Acts 7 can teach us much about how new religious movements begin and develop. Rarely does a religion spring from nothing (Scientology might be an exception). Christianity began as a sect of Judaism that placed Jesus in the role of Messiah. Thus speakers like Stephen both draw from Judaism while simultaneously condemning the religion for not “getting” Jesus. Seventh Day Adventists share many similar beliefs with Roman Catholics, but they spill much ink to suggest Saturday is the Sabbath and RCC is part of some vast conspiracy to place Sunday in this role.
Thus I think it wise to pay close attention to what OT authors condemn. What is condemned is often the point of difference and departure from the older religion. I think child sacrifice fits this model. OT authors often condemn this practice, drawing a distinction between their religion and the “false” forms they likely share a common heritage with. Thus you’ll notice while child sacrifice is condemned, animal sacrifice is praised. The story of Abraham and Isaac very well may have originally be a story of child sacrifice, that was reinterpreted to be merely a mock trial of faith. Likewise the story of Jephath’s daughter appears to be a story of child sacrifice, although not all scholars are in agreement.
Given a setting of multiple Gods vying for attention it is not surprising that the very first commandment is a call to monotheism with a strict insistence that the God of Israel should have no rivals.
Cheers,
-Randy
@Ricardo
Dude, thanx for rehashing the ol’ “dented bread pan” argument! Gives me a chance to say it again: I AM NOT A LOAF OF BREAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No doubt you are perfect, a second Jesus.
Define “perfect”.
perfect = without sin
So christians are not under the mosaic law. No need to talk about stoning homosexuals. Just pray for jesus to come back & slaughter all the queers. So … what’s the difference?
signed, Confused
… kinda like the jws, who love to bathe in an aura of love & mercy, yet salivate at the expectation of jesus returning to slaughter 7 billion men, women, children, & babies. If that’s christianity, I’ll take a pass. Same goes for islam, judaism, etc, etc, etc!
The difference is, we are not doing it. Jesus, the compassionate, concerned , patient son of God will have run out of patience. He will fight for God’s standards and carry out God’s will and God’s promises. Thus the prayer he taught us to pray: may your will be done.
Don’t you see the similarity in your pattern of thinking with extremism? All the infidels must die because it is ‘Gods Will’
If religious people put as much time and effort into trying to live peaceably with others regardless of their sexuality, differing religious views etc instead of preaching about who is right vs who is wrong, or who deserves to live vs who deserves to die the World would be a much better place. We could all live in peach whilst we await the time when we learn for certain what happens when we die.
If anything every intelligent person should realize we are not all going to live in peace on our own. Hint at a bit of proof to show your claim has any basis in reality. Truth and history deny your claim.
You have life. Enjoy it while you can. It was a gift. No future gift has to be given you. That’s Christ’s point. He does not have to extend it. And why should he, if you hate him, or his way of doing things? He does not ethically have to work or live with anyone that does not want to work or live with him. That would be like you being forced to let anyone in your house, say a rapist? Yes I made it an extreme example. But no more extreme and probably less than the perverts on this planet that will die. How many millions or billions have done bad things to others? Choose your own side. And if you think God’s a fantasy, I don’t know what your fuss is about. Why get upset at fantasy?
Messenger. Are you talking to me here? Are you suggesting that I’m unintelligent because I’m not one of the ‘right thinking’ people who trust in the Bible? Oh dear!..,
I have claimed that people can get along with one another better if they set aside their personal religious beliefs and hang ups about the correct way to fornicate.
My own religious beliefs have been undermined so much by the pious hypocritical views of ‘Christians’ that cherry pick through the scriptures and take it upon themselves to condemn to death every other person on the planet that disagrees with them.
I am living proof that without religion it’s possible to be happier and enjoy life. I don’t need to feel ‘special’ or ‘chosen’ to be content. I don’t need to convince others that my way of thinking is correct and everyone else is wrong.
I am not upset at any fantasy. Idk what you’re talking about when you accuse me of that. I don’t actually believe that we’re all going to hold hands at the end of the world and sing Kumbaya in a massive love fest.
I also don’t get why you would say that I hate Jesus. How can I hate something I don’t believe in? You’re implying that Jesus only died for the ones that were prepared to follow him. That kind of makes his sacrifice a bit redundant because those who would follow him would surely follow him regardless? What’s more if that’s the case surely mankind wouldn’t have needed to learn that gods ways are best and we cannot rule ourselves independently from god? If Jesus ransom only covers those willing to listen then why didn’t Jehovah just kill Adam and Eve and start afresh? How does all of this history of mankind prove anything to angels if the ‘perverts’ of this world are to be slaughtered? Why not just slaughter Adam and Eve in the first place?
I would suggest that if Jesus were the Shepherd of God then it would be the lost sheep that he would be interested in. If the sort of extremism that Jesus advocated includes telling people they’re stupid and punishing them for their stupidity by forcing their believing family to shun them then ‘way to go’ Jesus!!
I’d rather imagine that Jesus would rebuke his so called Christian followers in much the same way that he rebuked the scribes and Pharisees.
Is this your street corner where you like to proclaim about how holy you are? Are you reading these comments that are contrary to yours and congratulating yourself that at least you’re not as ‘bad’ as those like myself who’ve had their faith kicked out of them?
You lose all credibility when you refer to mankind as ‘perverts’ in the same way that a debate is lost when someone starts effing and blinding. If we are tossed about like sheep without a shepherd then who is going to call us by our name? Not the sort that treat us like we’re stupid perverts! Just saying …
Go back to your podium and continue with your hate speech. You’re doing the world a favour. The world governments likely will turn upon religion but it won’t be to vindicate Jehovah. It will be to free the rest of mankind from your anti community extremism.
Mankind cannot be judged incapable of ruling himself when we are continuously up against the self appointed minions of God causing unrest.
Who knows? Maybe this life is the test and when we die the real life begins? Of course JWs will have their own heaven filled only with JWs otherwise it wouldn’t feel like heaven to them likewise for dogmatic extreme members of any other religion. The rest of us will end up where we belong and will find our own true peace.
In the meantime enjoy the life we have left here because one thing is certain it’s NOT going to last forever.
Hi messenger….we just need to take a look at Sweden with an extremely high rate of atheism to know that following the bible doesn’t necessarily bring about a harmonious society. Bhutan, with probably not a single christian is probably the most happiest country in the world. The states in the U.S. that have the highest number of religious fundamentalists are social train wrecks when compared to the states with less religious participation.
It’s obvious, without even looking hard, that it’s not ‘bible’ principles that are essential for a peaceful society, but an understanding and tolerance towards each other and yes, the bible does set out standards of moral behaviour, but it wasn’t the bible writers who invented those morals. Society had already discovered through centuries of trial and error and observation what worked and what didn’t. They simply had to learn and abide, otherwise, we wouldn’t even had progressed to biblical times. All the the bible has done is reiterate those long held truths but somehow claimed them as it’s own.
If you need a prime example of what happens when closely following the bible, just take a look at the JW’s. You of all people should see that, messenger.
Cheers.
Messenger, very interesting example of living with a rapist. For that was indeed what Mosaic Law prescribed in case of a rape. That the rapist should marry the victim. The rapist could refuse to do it, in which case he had to pay for compensation. The girl had no right to refuse the wedding.
Very loving law, isn’t?
It seems to us an extreme example, but it was a loving arrangement from God.
Sorry if I can’t see that loving God in the Bible.
@Imgonaburn, It is the same extremism Jesus taught. Also, I doubt we can live in peace. There will always be things to divide people and which people will fight over. Soviet Russia was able to get rid of religion to a large extent, as did Yugoslavia, but in both cases there were nationalist forces and political forces which tore the unions apart. Only God’s kingdom will bring real peace by getting rid of all opposition. Yeh, well, I guess you’re sick of hearing that.
Ricardo-I hear what you’re saying. You made me chuckle then because you’re right about my being sick of hearing about the jw ‘final solution’ for mankind.
Ricardo and messenger, the scripture at Jeremiah 7:21,22, 23 is pretty clear cut:
“”This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel has said, ‘Add those whole burnt offerings of yours to your sacrifices and eat flesh. For I did not speak with your forefathers nor did I command them in the day of my bringing them out from the land of Egypt concerning the matters of whole burnt offering and sacrifice. But this word I did express in command upon them, saying “Obey my voice, and I will become your God, and you yourselves will become my people; and you must walk in all the way that I shall command you, in order that it may go well with you.””
The bible is saying that Jehovah said that He brought them out of Egypt but did not speak to them about whole burnt offering and sacrifice and then it says that “if” they obeyed His voice, THEN He would become their god.
Those scriptures go on to say that they did not obey His voice and so He never was their god and that is why all those burnt sacrifices to Him were not acceptable and so that is why Jesus said to the Jews that their father was the devil. That is why Acts 7:43 says that they were worshipping Moloch all during those 40 years in the wilderness. That is why David put the crown of Moloch on his head. That is why Solomon built alters to Moloch. That is who is the author of the Law, the devil and that explains all the killing by that god of the Hebrew scriptures.
You can look up references all day long in Watchtower publications about those scriptures and they will come up with excuse after excuse just like what you and Recardo do for the Law but if you take it (the Bible) at face value, the Jews’ father was Satan and Jesus got it right and there is scripture after scripture saying that very thing.
@Caroline, from what I can see there is a common theme running through many of these scriptures you mention: obey Jehovah, give him true worship. In Exodus 19:5, once the Israelites are out of Egypt, Jehovah tells them to strictly obey his voice and they would be blessed. In verse 8 the people agree that all that Jehovah has spoken they are willing to obey. It was only after this statement of agreement, some time afterward, that sacrifices are talked about in Leviticus. Thus, obedience comes first, not sacrifice. Jehovah did not ask them to offer up sacrifices and then tell them to obey him. The scripture in Jeremiah is correct and points out that the important thing is not the sacrifices they make, but obedience. This can be seen in Jer 7:18. Here they are worshipping other gods, yet they are still bringing animal sacrifices to Jehovah. They are treating him like a false god. How crazy. My answers to you have been logical, reasonable and based on scripture, and yet as far as I can see you have found it impossible to accept anything I say.
Ricardo, the scriptures you are speaking about is at Exodus chapter 12 but go on into chapter 13 and the first verse is: “And Jehovah spoke further to Moses, saying: “Sanctify to me every male firstborn that opens each womb among the sons of Israel, among men and beasts. It is mine.””.
Ricardo, you do not know which god you are worshipping. Either Jehovah has 2 personalities or there are 2 gods. Jesus said their “father was the devil” and if you believe Jesus, you need to find out just who is speaking over and over again in the Hebrew Scriptures and ask yourself: How is Jehovah communicating all those words to Moses? Was Jehovah speaking to him in dreams or on the mountain or how?
@Caroline, so the scriptures say that Jehovah required the Jews’ firstborn to be given to him, in a symbolic way, similar to the way that they were to give to him their firstborn animals and firstfruits of their crops. However, as time went on the Jews served false gods and the nation as a whole was called an unfaithful wife by Jehovah. Jehovah had not been unfaithful to them. And when Jesus came he could explain why Jehovah was rejecting the nation of Israel: because the Devil was actually the identity behind the false gods, he was the one the nation was unfaithful with. Now Jehovah could be worshipped by people who did so out of love, not because they were born into a certain nation. So the unfaithful Jews didn’t belong to Jehovah; they had proved adulterous, and he had rejected them. This makes Jehovah appear pure and good.
It is not a case of me making excuses. The same idea is repeated again and again and again through the whole Bible: obey Jehovah, give him true worship. Instead of seeing this theme, you have somehow twisted the idea to something quite perverse. The idea is: if we are not obeying Jehovah, our sacrifices are not really being offered to him but to Satan. There is a need to be sincere and appreciative. There are so many things we can be grateful to Jehovah for. We do not need to be like the Israelites and lack appreciation. May we thank him for our life, for willingly providing his son as saviour, for Christian principles that add value to our life, for the opportunity to pray to him and know he cares for us, for our families. Let us obey him and give him true worship.
To attack the Witnesses on the issue of homosexuality is stupid. They are just following the bible, which is exactly what they claim to do. The Church of England have moved their stance away from the bible which is why they look like hypocrites. You should instead be asking for the bible to be expergated if you don’t like it’s teachings.
I agree. They would be considered hypocrites if they ever relax their stand on how homosexuals should be killed by their god Jehovah but what business does Watchtower have in condemning homosexual acts when it comes to not condemning Lot when he had sex with his 2 daughters while drunk? The Bible holds Lot up to be a righteous man and he not only had sex with his daughters, but offered them up to be gang raped as well. That is also hypocritical.
Caroline-Ahhh but how old where lots daughters at the time? Girls and women don’t count do they? We all know how WT feels about protecting children!
The Bible and JWs depict JHVH as an absolute control freak who although ‘it’s impossible for Him to lie’ gets a kick out of moving the goal posts just to test people! He sees no problem with having hundreds of silly rules for the Israelites who are later told they didn’t try hard enough to obey so they are from ‘their Father the Devil’ now. Then allowing all of the myriad of rules to slide because of the atoning value of the sacrificial death of his own Son. If a thousand years is but a day with Jehovah then the 33 years Jesus was allegedly on earth was probably just enough time for Jehovah to shove a finger in his ear and examine his fingernail afterwards. I wonder if there is a God are we just an after thought? What was God doing during all the millions of years before we existed? Is there any concept of Time in Heaven? Boom! Mind-blown!
Yes, the bible says homosexuality is a sin. Fine! Crack on with your belief in that but don’t try to force your predudices upon everyone else. Just because someone doesn’t share the same viewpoint you can’t accuse them of being perverted or deviant. It’s such a dangerous mindset to be so extreme in your own rigid set of beliefs (bible based or otherwise). I know JWs who are so dogmatic they’re like emotionless robots. How long before they start handing out kool aid- that’d be a memorial to remember for us non JWs (plus 7!)
The videos in question were like watching a pantomime. All those pathetic shots of people ‘thinking’ – lame!!
Stereotype upon stereotype….why is the GB focusing on lesbians nowadays? Two ‘Marr-mies’. It’s like they’ve dismissed the role of women so much that they’ve suddenly realised that women can be gay too!! Almost makes me want to try it to see what all the fuss is about ;-D
Hi Anonymous witness,
I wouldn’t use the word “attack”, but, yes, to share a critical view of Watchtower material is part of the function of this site and in general Ex-JW support sites. Open discussion is typically not permitted at the Kingdom Hall.
Is it just a matter of following the Bible? I would agree there has been a degree of consistency in their view that homosexuality is morally wrong, however, I’ve argued that as the world has embraced homosexual rights, the leaders of JWs have used more nuanced language to discuss the subject. For example, they no longer suggest it has a connection to masturbation as they did in the past.
It might be easy to conclude The Church of England has moved away from the Bible as you say. However, when one reads how other Christian groups reach the conclusions they do, one finds they too debate these changes and a consideration of the Bible’s message is part of that. Often in this process a mindset view of God comes to the fore. Did Jesus, whom Christians follow, place an emphasis on this subject? This thread discusses it, but I think even folks who argue he would not have approved of homosexuality nonetheless would agree it wasn’t a large emphasis. To Jesus it was all about God’s Kingdom and love of God and love of neighbor. In many ways Jesus seem opposed to parsing law in fine detail that leads to theological burdens. Even his comments on marriage seem to reflect that — i.e. he made a simple statement about divorce and refused to be drawn into the “certificate of divorce” debate of his day.
As to the Bible itself, it belongs to all of us, believer and non-believer alike. I think it a mistake for JWs or anyone else to claim they have the one correct interpretation of the material. Even when the Bible seems to say something so clear, one should be careful and consider context and even what was not said if one hopes to get a clear picture.
Cheers,
-Randy
@Randy, to take a wishy-washy lack of backbone approach to a subject which is as plain as day as the Bible’s condemnation of homosexuality, saying it may not be interpreted properly, is sad indeed. So, 1 Tim 1:9 and 10 may be interpreted to mean murdering people is okay, lying is okay and kidnapping is okay? Similarly with 1 Cor 6:9 and 10. This understanding is beyond belief and bordering on irrational.
Hi Ricardo,
I commented on 1 Cor 6:9, 10 above. I did see your earlier reference 1 Tim 1:9, 10 but I haven’t looked it up. Ironically I can’t right now, since I have to get ready for church (vuu.org has details for those interested).
I remained confused about the “wishy-washy” comment. I take no issue with the plain statements within the Bible. When Lev 20:13 says male homosexuals should be put to death, I literally believe that is what the author intended to say. When Paul condemns catamites and sodomites in 1 Cor, I literally believe he is condemning behaviors common to his world he felt incompatible with Christianity.
Perhaps what may bother some is I don’t view the author of Leviticus or Paul has have any greater authority or insight on human behavior or morals than anyone else. They are just men writing down their thoughts.
Cheers,
-Randy
@Randy, great, so you have basically questioned whether God and Jesus really dislike homosexuality, and when presented with plain language from the Bible that they do. you say you don’t accept that these men who wrote the Bible were speaking from God.
Hi Ricardo,
After posting my reply it occurred to me that I have gotten fairly comfortable viewing the Bible from atheist/secular perspective. Thus what I post will what the text says mixed with speculations about motivation and cultural context. I don’t view any of the text as having moral force, either religiously or secularly. This of course could produce responses that seem odd and wishy-washy to ones who view the text as inspired of God, perfect with clear, and important directives on moral law.
1 Timothy 1:9, 10 reads:
recognizing that law is made, not for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, ungodly and sinners, disloyal and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers, sexually immoral people, men who practice homosexuality, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and everything else that is in opposition to the wholesome teaching.
This is a typical Paul list of related things. In this case, items that show one to be lawless. For this thread the focus would be on two words, that come out as phrases.
“sexually immoral people” and “men who practice homosexuality”
The two Greek words are “pornois” and “arsenokoitais”, literally “paramours” and “sodomites.”
So is Paul grouping in paramours and sodomites in the same class as father and mother murders, manslayers and the like? Yes, that would be a reasonable understanding of the text. Once again though the grouping of these two words, one right after the other is a strong hint, Paul is condemning male prostitutes (pornois) and those men who used them (sodomites).
G4205 pornois is defined as: a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): —
fornicator, whoremonger.
G733 arsenokoitais is defined as: a sodomite: — abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.
This verse also highlights one of my main points about why atheists and homosexuals should not just toss out the Bible because they may run across a verse or two that offends. These laws can still form the basis of good moral direction, even if one does not believe it is inspired of God. If a young gay man were to read 1 Tim 1:9, 10 and conclude one should avoid gay sex with prostitutes I do believe they would be better for it.
If you don’t mind hanging out with me for a bit more, I would like to zoom out to consider another aspect of Paul’s message to Timothy.
James Madison said, “If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.” Paul is making a similar point. What is law for? Why does it need to exist? Law works best when it is internalized. That is, we read of some moral law, see the wisdom it and then apply it to good effect. Where law can fail is in enforcement. Now of course we need to acknowledge lawbreakers exist, can do harm, and in civil society we seek to reduce the harmful effect.
Imagine an Awake! article gives advice to marry only in the lord. By itself, that can be good. Marriage can be difficult and adding in a difference of religious belief can make it even more of a challenge. Perhaps the Awake! author sees these issues and tries his best to reach the heart of his audience. What happens though when an elder see this material as moral law that needs to be enforced?
Jesus and Christianity seems to be a push back against zealous enforcement of law. This was the world of the pharisees. In contrast Christianity seems more focused on love and trust. Sure individuals were still sinners and in need of salvation, but must law be pulled apart in fine detail so that we can give specific direction on whether or not oral sex should be allowed or disallowed?
The context shows Paul talking about how some were teaching, such as speculation about genealogies. This was not profitable and so should stop. The important thing, is “love” (verse 5). In the lead up to verse 9, Paul says:
“They want to be teachers of law, but they do not understand either the things they are saying or the things they insist on so strongly.”
Unfortunately I think Jehovah’s Witnesses do a lot of that. Are individuals allowed to use their conscience in regards to shunning? Nope! The organization does the judging and then just tells them who is on the list and when they have been removed.
Some might insist homosexuals are law breakers. But I’m reminded when the Pharisees called Jesus a law breaker for eating with tax collectors and sinners, quoted Hosea and said, “I want mercy, and not sacrifice.” (Matthew 9:13).
Cheers,
-Randy
They were simply writing down their thoughts as influenced by the prevailing society trends at that time. And you do not consider this to be wishy-washy? Is this taking a solid stand for Bible principles? But then you do not accept that the Bible tells us God’s principles.
So if we are going to question what God likes or dislikes, but we aren’t going to accept what the Bible says, then what’s the point of saying what we think? Why put our words into God’s mouth? God made a very plain statement with the destruction of those practicing sodomy in Sodom. What could be plainer?
Hi Richardo,
[great, so you have basically questioned whether God and Jesus really dislike homosexuality,]
Hmm… I don’t think it is a problem of questioning. Rather the issue is one of using casual language vs my desire to be precise with Bible text. There are no verses that say “Jehovah or Jesus really dislikes homosexuality.”
[and when presented with plain language from the Bible that they do.]
If you feel I have misunderstood the text, that is fine, and certainly I may have. Even professional scholars and language experts have difficulty with this ancient text. I really seek to understand the text as presented. In fact my argument all along is folks take a 21st century understanding of homosexuality[1] and attempt to transport it back to the text. For example they point to Lev 20:13 to say God dislikes “homosexuals,” but fail to mention the text explicitly condemns _male_ homosexual sex. Likewise Paul’s words in regards to paramours, catamites and sodomites are re-labelled simple “homosexuality,” divorcing them of their original meaning and cultural context.
[you say you don’t accept that these men who wrote the Bible were speaking from God.]
Correct. Yet, that does not mean I shall give no consideration to such words. Many times folks who believed in God and wrote about it, especially in the pre-science era, were our wisdom seekers.
Cheers,
-Randy
[1] In particular the difference between homosexual sex and long-term homosexual relationships. The former is known to Bible writers,the later was not.
Hi Ricardo,
[They were simply writing down their thoughts as influenced by the prevailing society trends at that time.]
I don’t think I would express it that way. Yes, the thoughts written down belong to whoever authors them. And the cultural context is going to have influence, most obviously in terms of the language used. However, many Bible authors wrote to object to cultural norms. Many times the authors directly tell us why they wrote. When Malachi says “Jehovah hates divorce,” I believe he is speaking against a cultural norm of his day. Prophets seem to often write to call people back to some better behavior.
[And you do not consider this to be wishy-washy?]
I’m still confused on this. The best I can figure is my manner of speaking is so different than that of believer that it comes across as ungrounded and whimsical. Maintaining a love of scripture while being an atheist probably makes me a rare animal :-)
In any regards all I can say, is I assure everyone being wishy-washy is not my intent.
[Is this taking a solid stand for Bible principles? But then you do not accept that the Bible tells us God’s principles.]
Correct. I’m not an apologist for the Bible. Lev 20:13 is horrible and is only bearable now because neither Jews nor Christians attempt to put it into practice. At the same time it is not to be ignored for as long as their are places on earth that still proscribe the death penalty for homosexuality.
That said, I believe the Bible belongs to all of humanity. It is a window into our past. And in some cases speaks great truths about the human condition.
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy,
No Christian with a clear understanding of the Bible’s message, no one that comprehends its message believes they or a any single group alone has an exclusive clear understanding of it. That type of understanding of every Bible detail is not the gospel. The accepting the gospel message and having it affect one’s life is what leads to salvation. This does not discount the importance of the whole Bible message, but certainly certain interpretations about its many parts are not necessary for salvation. If that were true every JW is doomed. Because WT has made thousands of false interpretations getting others to follow it. But all JWs are not doomed. Remember Paul admitted he did not see the messages from God clearly while he was human. It was a hazy outline to him. He had partial knowledge that he claimed would be done away with after his resurrection when he would see God, and all those things about God not fully understood would be realized by Paul. If Paul had partial knowledge and he wrote the Bible how could any man or group claim an exclusively correct understanding now? They could only in ignorance or as a pretext (lie).
Keep your faith brother.
Hi Messenger,
Thanks, I appreciate your post. To quote Micah 6:8:
He has told you, O man, what is good.
And what is Jehovah requiring of you?
Only to exercise justice, to cherish loyalty,
And to walk in modesty with your God!
Our journey continues, we live we learn. If I have faith, it is that most people, most of the time, are just good, trying to do their best, and it is not always easy.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Randy,
Last year, while deprogramming myself via JWfacts, I
found that the governing body has changed the text of
Micah 6:8 in order to be able to demand loyalty.
Early versions of NWT used the word kindness, in line
with Strongs Concordance.
My Good News Bible reads to do what is just, to show
constant love, and live in humble fellowship with our
God.
My New Living Translation reads to do what is right, to
love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
The 2013 NWT changed kindness to loyalty despite few
other translations using the concept of loyalty.
According to JWfacts, this change has opened the way
for WT Society leaders to start using Micah 6:8 in
application to themselves.
‘Today, as in the past, Jehovah wants all of his servants
to be loyal to him and respect those whom he allows to
have authority.’ Watchtower Feb. 2016 page 22.
I just wanted to share that information, in case like me,
others maybe unaware of what happened to Micah 6:8.
I would also like to say I have appreciated the time and
effort you put into your posts and essays and the mild
spirit in which you deliver them.
Thanks Jennifer.
Hi Jennifer,
[Micah 6:8 in order to be able to demand loyalty.
Early versions of NWT used the word kindness, in line
with Strongs Concordance.]
Interesting. I left the faith in 2007 before the updated NWT was released. In our family Bible reading once we completed the 1984 NWT, we switched to the NIV. Alas, we’re only up to Samuel, so Micah will be down the road. I must say, reading the NIV does produce a different flavor. With Jehovah replaced by Lord in the NIV, one gets a sense of reading a text closer to what Christians would have read. That is, the Greek Septuagint Christian NT authors read almost certainly had Lord in place of Jehovah.
Cheers,
-Randy
Like any tool, Rick, the usefulness of the internet depends on the user. If the desire is strong enough, eye’s will only see what they want to see.
Speaking of the internet, if the WT can predict anything, how come they didn’t predict the internet? How come it doesn’t get a mention in the bible? The effect of the internet on us is so huge, I’d be surprised if we couldn’t see it from space.
@Caroline, on what basis can Lot be condemned? What law was enforced at that time that he broke? He may have offered his daughters, knowing full well the offer would be rejected. This further had the effect of showing how depraved the men of the town were. Lot offered, but he did not give his daughters to them. So he is to be condemned for what? We were not there, we do not know everything that happened. With an active imagination, every act a person does can be painted in a bad light.
@Anonymous witness , It appears JHVH, has overlooked
2 billion plus Muslims as far as salvation is concerned.
They only have the Koran for moral guidance.
How come he’s only given the Bible to Christians ? It’s
hardly in keeping with his quality of impartiality.
It seems the chances of salvation are a toss up, it’s simply
a question of geography, where you were born.
Nice to hear from you, please return, and best wishes,Ted
Ted those billions of Muslims you claim God has overlooked is not true. WT believes most or all people not JWs will be killed during or after the great tribulation Christ spoke of. But in Rev 3:10 Christ refers to this great tribulation as an hour (time) of test. That implies it will be a time in which people are given a chance to repent. It will be up to their choices during that time. Thus some come out of the great tribulation who have accepted Christ during it. That answers your concern for the Muslims and denies God has abandon them. What God has done has allowed people to make their choices now. Just as he will allow them to later. Why is everyone here blaming God for the choices men make? If he doesn’t exist that sounds unintelligent. If he does exist then what does he have to do with what someone else decides to do and does?
messenger, you always like to bring up straw men arguments like “everyone here blaming God for the choices men make?”
Nobody here has said a word about blaming God for the choices men make. I am saying if you believe in God, just which God is it you worship and believe in? If it’s Jehovah, then it’s His principles and laws you respect and love like not being able to wear two kinds of cloths together and don’t forget Jehovah made a huge deal about not working on the Sabbath and killing homosexuals and burning prostitutes.
Are you saying that all “Christians” will survive Armageddon because they have accepted Christ? What about Matthew 7:21,22,23?
Caroline
Let’s stick with one point at a time for the sake of clarity. Do you believe in the god of the Hebrew scriptures or not? Is he real to you? If he isn’t how could you blame a fantasy for anything? It’s like blaming the boogie man because a little kid is afraid after hearing the story.
Even in your argument that the god of the Bible wanted human sacrifices, if he does not exist then who decided to sacrifice those kids? A non-existent being or perverted people?
I personally know God does exist, because I could not have otherwise seen a detailed future. I know you misrepresent Bible passages out of hatred. So Caroline, do you hate a non-existent boogie man, or do you really still believe in Jehovah? If you don’t believe God exists then why are you not talking about those people as being disgusting? Why is it you focus on Jehovah?
In your belief is a boogie man a pervert or do people act perverted as I claimed?
Not all Christians will go through Armageddon or the great tribulation. See Rev 3:10. Christ decides what happens to who, I don’t. Read your Bible for your answer. Am I the judge of all Christians?
@Ted, the Muslims have had contact with Christianity from the very start, Mohammed being very familiar with the teachings of the Coptic church of that time. He rejected those teachings. In the Koran it tells the Muslims that if they do not believe what God has revealed to Mohammed then they can check with the Christians, it is written in their holy book. How many Muslims have bothered to do this? How many have checked out what the Bible says? Go into a Muslim shop which sells religious books in a Muslim country and see if they are selling Bibles so that their people can check. They aren’t. Ask in the shop for a Bible, and then be prepared to run fast, because believe me, they don’t have one and they are not going to be happy with your request. If the Muslims aren’t going to listen to their own god telling them to check the Bible, do you think they are going to listen to any Christians telling them the same? Remember that Ishmael and his descendants were enemies of the Jews basically from the start, and have been enemies of God’s people ever since. It isn’t that God doesnt want the Muslims. They don’t want him or his standards.
What’s obnoxious here. Is people, especially JWs taking
the moral high ground using insulting and hurtful language
against other people. ( Forget the gay tag) they’re just the
current targets, others will follow.. –>
They excuse their bad manners by claiming they are expressing
gods thoughts, based on what they’ve read in the Bible which
they believe is divinely inspired. Other religious books make
the same fantastic claim, and also condemn and predict death
for non conformers. Hence, history is drenched in rivers of
blood, both past and present.
So instead of quoting from these books to support their own
own contents ( circular reasoning ) let’s have some independent
verifiable evidence that prove the huge claims made for these
ancient writings. Until then we need more humility, less-
dogmatism, more moderate language toward others.
@Ted, when commentors here have the audacity to say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, it is being misunderstood, who when presented with such proof from the Bible then say they don’t believe the Bible writers meant what they said, what adjective do you suggest? Brilliant? Honest? Reasonable? Sincere? I don’t believe any of these fit.
If I were to tell you that I don’t believe humans went to the moon, you then present me with suffient proof that they did, and I then reply that I don’t believe the proof, that what was said doesn’t indicate Armstrong was on the moon; he may have thought he was on the moon because everyone around him thought he was on the moon but this doesn’t actually mean he was on the moon, would you not think I had a problem in my mind?
Ricardo, another straw man argument. Nobody here is suggesting that the Bible didn’t mean what it says in condemning homosexuality and God saying they deserve to be stoned to death but we are saying that it also does condone slavery and human sacrifice and killing your sassy kids as well as killing a girl who can’t prove she’s a virgin on her wedding night and not observing the sabbath.
Tell us: What does that law of Jehovah have to do with the perfect law of Jesus when he said the two greatest commandments was to love god and neighbor. Jehovah said men would only live to 120 BEFORE the flood (Gen. 6:3). Nothing to do with degenerating. You are worshipping a Canaanite god who demanded and accepted human sacrifices.
Ricardo…I will accept that the bible condemns homosexuality but I will say that it has been inserted by the writers themselves as gods law because that is what they themselves want it to be. I back that up by pointing out the discovery than homosexuality in not a learned trait anymore than being autistic is. God created homosexuality. Religion has already accepted half of that by saying that homosexuals should not be condemned, only homosexual behaviour. See how religion always slowly comes around? They kick and fight and scream, but at the end of the day, there’s always one thing more important than gods word and that bums on pew’s. Money.
Maybe you could consider the words of Francis Collins M.D. Ph.D., former leader of the Human Genome project –
“the evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming.
I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that.”
Cheers
From what I’ve read in the comments nobody is denying that the bible condemns homosexuality. We all know what the bible says. Most of us have had it rammed down our throats for years.
Imho what some of us are questioning is whether all scripture is inspired of god or if perhaps the human (Male) bible writers were influenced by other factors i.e their own personal opinions and trends in thinking current with their time.
When Armageddon arrives next Tuesday, Ted, that will be your evidence. You just have to be patient and trust Gods word. So in the meantime, continue trying to live in the dusty barbaric past, while looking forward to an uncertain future and just forget about the here and now. Waste your life.
Okay, I’ve been a devout JW all my life and here I am in Paradise. Wow! What now? What happens? How do I fill my days from now until……forever? How to I stop from dying of boredom because I’ve been alive for ninety eight trillion trillion years and I haven’t even had breakfast yet? Just what has this paradise got that I want and need? Where are the newborns? Where are the schools? Where are the playgrounds? Where is the sex? Whats happened to my willy? Where is the reason for existing? Our greatest joy is seeing our babies grow and prosper. Take that away then what is life for? Just what have we got to be grateful for? Are we to be grateful that god has us in this freakin’ great Truman Show full of bored eunuchs while he looks down, stroking his beard and saying “yes…yes, my children, yes,yes.” What are we… his train set??
FOR WHAT??? WHAT THE HELL DOES HE WANT?? Has anybody actually stopped and asked that question? What the f–k is the end game and what is it’s purpose and why should we want it?
I was going thru some of my mother’s old WT books and was noticing her underlining. She had a question mark on page 652/651 paragraph 4 of the Babylon the Great has Fallen, God’s Kingdom Rules book. The part she questioned was “…when children cease to be born to the survivors of the fiery end of this world and to their descendants, all deadly effects of Adam’s sin will cease to spread.”
No wonder she questioned this part! Unfortunately she never got that explained to her at the time. Does this sound strange to anyone?
This is the sort of lunacy, Shibboleth, that JW’s just ignore once they’ve successfully had the shite scared out of them by the promise of what will happen to them if they don’t believe in a vengeful god. A bunch of scared people who have been successfully convinced that leaving the Org is the same as committing suicide. Poor, deluded cultists.
Hi Shibboleth, here is a classic example of what will be totally ignored and pushed under the carpet once a person has been sucked into the cult of religious fundamentalism. Fear of death at the hands of a vengeful god who knows your every thought prevents rational thinkig, and that’s exactly how the cult leaders want it. Putty in their hands.
AAHAHAHAA!! I’ve just posted something similar then scrolled on and found this post of yours! How funny. We are just Gods playthings that get tossed aside when He’s bored. Maybe he has ‘other projects’ involving different planets/dimensions and he’s just Chanel hopping using his celestial remote control aka ‘telly buttons’ watching how each blockbuster series works out!! Lol
Maybe in another million years He’ll take his list of positives and make a world that works and call it Utopia or Nirvana.
Could’ve saved us all a lot of pain and suffering if he’d payed more attention to the Hippies who sang about peace and love and imagining a world with no religion.
Peace Out ✌
Was away from the site for a bit only to return to discover that the comments have grown exponentially…….what a lively discussion!
Getting back to some of Ricardo’s earlier comments:
>>>>”Jehovah could see that family members getting married would start to cause genetic problems as humans’ bodies became weaker than previously.”<<<<<
RICARDO,
– God was sure to give the Israelites an extensive list of rules in the OT (Leviticus, in particular), even paying attention to things that seem downright silly & inconsequential, for example, the purchase or possession of suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials was an abomination.
Yet, despite these details, God gave no explanation/reason for the abrupt change in his plan for incest, so how did you arrive at the reason/explanation which you gave?
Why did God give rules/details about things which are inconsequential/not life-threatening, yet neglected to state the reason for the abrupt change in his plan for incest and leave us to rely on humans like yourself & the WT to clarify something which he forgot to tell us about?
– Could you please explain in detail, giving specifics how "humans’ bodies became weaker"? Is there physiological/biological proof of this?
***** “suits and dresses” should read: “clothing”.
@dee2, the fact that age lengths went from longer than 600 years before the flood to around 120 years at the time of Abraham to around 80 years by the time of Moses points to a gradual deterioration in the strength of the human body.
@Ricardo,
Even if this were so, please explain why a supposedly shortened life expectancy meant that incest was no longer a part of God’s plan.
Ricardo,
– As far as I know, there is no genetic evidence to support your claim that humans are degenerating over time.
– As far as I understand, incest/inbreeding is also bad for animals:
“The phenomenon of nonviable offspring from breeding between closely related family members is not limited to humans, but to most life, especially amongst mammals and multicellular organisms”
(Source: A study of 38 captive mammalian species found a cross-species average of around 33% offspring mortality resulting from closely incestuous matings. Donald Brown, ‘Human Universals’ pp124).
So were animals once perfect and then they became imperfect why incest/inbreeding is also bad for them too?
When and how did this happen?
– According to the Bible story, by the time of Noah, humanity had fallen so far from perfection that God tried to wipe us all out, yet incest was God’s plan for re-populating the earth after the flood.
– If I am not mistaken, average life expectancy has actually increased over time, due to increased access to & advances in healthcare. So it doesn’t seem to me that your supposedly decline in life expectancy argument can be used as an indication of humans becoming “imperfect”.
____
– BTW, just as an aside, your “imperfection” theology is immoral.
There is no justice system in the world that requires innocent children to pay the penalty for a crime committed by their parents.
It certainly isn’t justice (divine or otherwise) to condemn not only the criminal to death, but also his offspring who have nothing to do with his crime.
It certainly isn’t justice if the law which governs societies today wasn’t satisfied with the death of a criminal but came after his innocent offspring and executed them as well for his crime.
If a judge were knowingly to sentence to death an innocent man as a substitute for a criminal, the act would provoke universal detestation, and the judge’s judicial position would in all probability be forfeited.
The children of criminal parents are not blamed, but are rather pitied, for being innocent victim of others.
Children cannot be ethically punished for the sins of their parents. People not alive at the time of a sin cannot be held responsible for that “original sin.”
Ethical systems teach that everyone is responsible for their own sins.
@dee2, the research done into telomeres and the aging process is quite insightful, as it can be used to explain why those before the flood could live such long lives.
Of course life expectancy is getting longer in modern times, with modern medicine and the cures for so many diseases. However the length of life stays more or less the same; the potential age limit stays around the same.
As for animals and closely related animals breeding, they never were perfect, so did not have a time when their genes were closer to perfection. They have been in the state we are now pretty much throughout history, except for when there were just the two of every unclean animal Noah brought out, and depending on how many of each animal God originally created, which we don’t know.
As to the immorality or unethicality of genetically passed defects, those who do not believe in God are probably amazed that genetic defects are passed on which shows nature itself is unethical.
For those who believe in God, they see that Adam and Eve were unethical and immoral for making a choice which passed on genetic deformity to their offspring. They were fully informed of the consequences, and so the by-product of disobedience was imperfection. Only humans could make that choice; Jehovah didn’t pressure them to disobey. And so, using the words of Romans 1:27, they received in themselves the full penalty which was due to their error.
Lovingly, Jehovah has made an antidote to their error available through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. All are free to put faith in him.
Usually an antidote is given when life is threatened, for example when someone takes poison. If not administered immediately, the person expires. If the ransom was the antidote, why was it not administered immediately? If an antidote is not given in a crucial emergency situation, it is rendered useless.
If the antidote was given at the time Christ died, then a whole lot of God’s enemies would have received the benefits. The schedule is for these enemies to be dealt with first, at Armageddon, and then the antidote is given. Those enemies who are now in the grave may not receive a resurrection at all, thus no hope of any resurrection for them.
@dee2, you probably know the explanation, that as we get further away from perfection, the more effect this has on us, becoming weaker, genetic imperfection, and with close relatives marrying this amplifies the genetic deterioration such that birth defects are more likely to be caused.
Ricardo, Jehovah said that because humans were flesh, that is why he limited their life span to 120 years BEFORE the flood (Gen. 6:3). It had nothing to do with Adam and Eve. It was because the sons of the “true” god went to having sex with good-looking women.
@Caroline, remembering that Noah was 500 years old at the time of this scripture, and he went on to live to 950 years old (and Shem lived to 500 years) I think God is here saying that the end of man will happen in 120 years, because of all the wickedness. I can’t wait for WT to come out and say 120 years after 1914 the end will come.
Ricardo, so Jehovah predetermined that no matter what happened, he was going to destroy the whole world in 120 years because of some disobedient angels who He did not kill? What happened to free will?
@Caroline, of course free will could be taken into account. For some reason you are always painting God as some evil ogre rather than a loving compassionate righteous father. As seen in the case of Jonah warning the Ninevites, if the people as a whole repented, then God can change his mind. But in this case did the people change their mind? Did anybody respond and help Noah in this project? Could the angels have repented anyway, having been perfect individuals who deliberately disobeyed? It’s strange how God is sometimes portrayed as being the bad guy here, whereas He was the one saving the world from incredible violence and wickedness. Again, let us praise Jehovah for supporting true worship and righteousness.
Ricardo, just what scriptures are you referring to that show Jehovah is a loving and compassionate father?
With Jonah, Jehovah was going to destroy the Ninevites but because Jonah warned them, Jehovah decided not to kill them? How does that show Jehovah’s love?
@Caroline, not killing a people worthy of death is not mercy? Not killing us for sinning against him, but instead providing his son as a covering for our sins when we repent, this is not merciful? To even tell us about him in his word, is this not merciful? Let us count our blessings at even being born, rather than scorn what God has given us.
@Ricardo,
– As far as I know, there is no genetic evidence to support your claim that humans are degenerating over time.
– According to the following, incest/inbreeding is also bad for animals:
“The phenomenon of nonviable offspring from breeding between closely related family members is not limited to humans, but to most life, especially amongst mammals and multicellular organisms”
(Source: A study of 38 captive mammalian species found a cross-species average of around 33% offspring mortality resulting from closely incestuous matings. Donald Brown, ‘Human Universals’ pp124).
So were animals once perfect and then they became imperfect why incest/inbreeding is also bad for them too?
When and how did this happen?
– According to the Bible story, by the time of Noah, humanity had fallen so far from perfection that God tried to wipe us all out, yet incest was God’s plan for re-populating the earth after the flood.
– If I am not mistaken, average life expectancy has actually increased over time, due to increased access to & advances in healthcare. So it doesn’t seem to me that your supposedly decline in life expectancy argument can be used as an indication of humans becoming “imperfect”.
___
BTW, just as an aside, your “imperfection” theology is immoral.
There is no justice system in the world that requires innocent children to pay the penalty for a crime committed by their parents.
It certainly isn’t justice (divine or otherwise) to condemn not only the criminal to death, but also his offspring who have nothing to do with his crime.
It certainly isn’t justice if the law which governs societies today wasn’t satisfied with the death of a criminal but came after his innocent offspring and executed them as well for his crime.
If a judge were knowingly to sentence to death an innocent man as a substitute for a criminal, the act would provoke universal detestation, and the judge’s judicial position would in all probability be forfeited.
The children of criminal parents are not blamed, but are rather pitied, for being innocent victim of others.
Children cannot be ethically punished for the sins of their parents. People not alive at the time of a sin cannot be held responsible for that “original sin.” Ethical systems teach that everyone is responsible for their own sins.
@Messenger, Just backing up a bit. The context of
Matt, 16:28, is Jesus talking about returning with his
angels to execute judgement. Which hardly fits what
happened at the transfiguration, no angels, no
judgement. So Jesus is saying those disciples with
him would live to see the coming judgement.
you also ask what about the book of revelations, well
if you would care to compare Dan, 12:4 with Rev, 22:10
Dan, after prophesying a distant event says “Close up
the Book” ( the events are a long way off).—>
Rev, says “Do not close the Book the fulfilment is
at hand” That’s plainly referring to the contents of Rev.
Rev.1:1 also indicates a quick conclusion or judgement
Many disciples were disappointed at not seeing Jesus
return, some of them no doubt getting rather old so had
to be reassured, hence we get Peter and John attempting
to pacify them. 2 Pet,3:8-9. 1 Joh, 2:18.
Well many are still waiting, and again have to be placated.
How long will the overlapping generation last before it
needs replacing do you think?
Ted
I’m just addressing your first point so things remain clear. Matt 16:38 reads, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man standing in his kingdom.” NIV Bible complete scripture. Ted your belief that Christ speaking about his kingdom is far too narrow. Christ stood in his kingdom after his resurrection. His statement that , “All authority has been given me in heaven and on Earth ,” proves that. The WT has a very narrow view of what Christ’s kingdom is. Actually they define it as used 3 separate ways, so even WT’s view could be used to support my argument.
Your view that those disciples would have to have seen angels and destruction is far too narrow. The scripture does not say that. Look at all the parables in which Christ spoke of the kingdom of the heavens. In most of those there are no angels and no judgment. “The kingdom of the heavens is like…” Christ exercises kingdom power throughout the history of each parable’s fulfillment, which fulfillments currently are in progress. Peter, John, and James saw visions of what represented his authority there when he was speaking to two other who had been resurrected. John, in the Revelation vision, saw much more.
@Ricardo, So the all powerful JHVH has been unable to stop
a sheep herder from thwarting his plans for the salvation of all
mankind. All he had to do was cause a sink hole under him,
or maybe repeat the pillar of salt trick, it’s so unlike him!
@Ted, it has always been an individual choice, there has been nobody forced to choose Jehovah. The descendants of Ishmael rejected Jehovah, and at the time of Mohammed these descendants still had rejected God’s new choice of people, the Christians. Is it any surprise that the descendants of Ishmael still view God’s people and the Jews as enemies? Which doesn’t by any means condemn them all individually; some do change their religion. But as a whole they mainly stay with the decision made by their ancestor. No doubt Jehovah will give them the chance to hear the good news, but I see the preaching work being a quick process there due to any message from the true God being largely rejected, as it has for centuries, on the pain of death.
I have no problem with gay people but your article simply isn’t true. The family didn’t react in that radical way. Infact if anything they sided against the father that lives by holy scripture. Do you think the problem may actually be your hatred of JWs. Just a thought
@Outandabout. I’m with you, that extended vacation on
paradise island, I think I’l pass it up. What’s life without
a bit of lust, at 85 I can’t manage it now, but at least I
can think about it, I wouldn’t even be allowed that would
I, it would be thought crime. Instant zapping. I think I’l
make do with a week in Blackpool. Cheers.
According to the WT conductor on the weekend, Armageddon could be today, more false expectation like the 1975 banter, on top of that the PT was on higher education, made me very sick, the WT teaching that God will wipe out all who are not JDubs is absurd, but these walking corpses that we have around us are so delusional its not funny anymore. I don’t personally agree with Homosexual’s per say, but as said i do believe they are born that way & one day science will prove it, but science is the Devil anyway. Gay marriage will happen in Australia i have no doubt & the churches will face legal action by not allowing them to wed in church, so big changes underway i think.
@Whip It, that was good of you to go to the meeting. I haven’t been to one for about a month. I took the opportunity while our hall was being renovated. The hall we were assigned was too far away. And no phonecall from my group leader to see if I’m okay. But I plan to go on Sunday; I want to make an answer about the victims of injustice in our org. Can you believe the cosmetic effect the GB is putting on the ulcer of injustice: victims need to shut up, perpetrators are just imperfect men. This is abuse at the max.
Ted, we actually went to Blackpool last year, interesting place
Hey Ricardo! Let me see if I understand this:
Perfect = Without Sin (I’m quoting u)
If memory serves, Sin = Missing the Mark of Perfection
Therefore,
Perfection = Not Missing the Mark of Perfection
WOW
The bible truly is an amazing book!
signed,
More Confused than Ever
:D :D :D
@TS, if you don’t miss the mark of perfection, then you have hit the mark. You are perfect. Perfect morals = meeting God’s standards of right and wrong. Hitting the mark of God’s standards.
Ricardo, just exactly which Bible standards” are you talking about, Jehovah’s or Jesus? Jesus commands existed as 2 commandments, but Jehovah’s was over 600 and they were perfect right since they came from Jehovah. Please define what Jehovah’s standards are since that is the only god you supposedly worship.
@Caroline, once again it seems you have tried hard to paint God as a baddie. Again and again you people ask which of God’s commandments do I obey, and again and again I explain that I am a Christian living by the laws and principles Jesus taught. I do not find it unusual that God would expect different things from two different peoples in two different situations, one before the saviour came, one after the saviour had appeared. Why such a logical, reasonable, explainable answer is for you too hard to cope with, I cannot understand.
I apologize if this post is kind of all-over-the-place (& LONG). I just want to respond to several comments I read (or parts thereof). I’ll try not to pick on anyone or name names (though it’s tempting) unless I’m saying something positive.
One comment declared that stoning ‘naughty’ folks is not the same as counting on jesus to wipe them out, because “we are not doing it”. So by that logic, I suppose I am totally guilt-free if I hire an assassin to take someone out, so long as I am not the one who actually pulls the trigger?
I would like to thank outandabout for their insightful comments re: the “purpose” of life. It’s a topic most people really don’t think thru. BTW I used to call it an “ant farm” – when I read “train set” I almost fell over LOL.You made very valid points. I mean, if there’s a Purpose to life, what’s the Purpose of the Purpose? If the Purpose is A, now u need a B to explain the Purpose of A. Lo & behold, now u need a Reason for B, hence C, & on & on & on ad infinitum. What’s the Reason for the Reason? What’s the Purpose of the Purpose? Now I know some genius will come & say, “Well, that’s like a child asking, ‘Why is the sky blue?'” But it’s NOT the same, unless you are some kind of automaton looking for something to do with your life, searching for some kind of “mission” programming – an eternal robotic existence, like the Bushido code of strict obedience, of ancient Japan. I watched a TV miniseries (“Shogun”) set in Japan in those times, and all the actors & extras really nailed it – NO ONE looked happy – more like emotionless “Vulcans” from Star Trek – each one knowing his/her life BELONGED to the local warlord – even the exalted Samurai (which simply means “To Serve”) – yes, the SAME rules applied to them – SERVE or DIE !!! BTW Vulcans of course are not real – that is no way for HUMANS to live. WT says the “Purpose” of life is to serve The Creator. Well, what is the purpose of that? AND does The Creator really need to be served? Hey, if that floats ur boat, knock yourself out. But if u’re so freakin’ happy, why do u brainwash people, including ur own kids? Why not let them choose for themselves when they are old enough? Why do u molest children & protect pedophiles? Why do u shun those who don’t conform to ur “HAPPY” standards??? Why are so many jws on medication for depression, fibromyalgia, etc. Watchtower’s Pedophile’s Paradise does not sound like a very happy place. You can’t argue with success. Nor can you argue with failure. The RESULTS speak for themselves. Bottom Line: If a person cannot find SOME enjoyment in the HERE & NOW, there is really no point to being alive. And no amount of philosophizing, “studying”, or ideology-manufacturing will ever fill the void.
I would like to thank Caroline for telling the TRUTH about the ancient Hebrews. It is clear that Judaism, Christianity, & the other one ( ;) ) are all based on DEVIL WORSHIP. I’d like to add some more facts, probably nothing new to most here. “New light” points to the fact that ancient Egyptian culture was much more enlightened than previously believed. Most Pharaohs were not tyrants, and the pyramids, etc were NOT BUILT BY SLAVES. They were PAID craftsmen & laborers who often competed for those coveted positions. They were well-accommodated & cared for. There was even health care & medical facilities. Also, there is NO EVIDENCE that a large Hebrew population ever resided in Egypt, let alone as SLAVES !!! If 1 – 2 MILLION people wandered the Sinai wilderness for FORTY years, WHY have ARCHAEOLOGISTS not found 1 SHRED of evidence??? NO animal bones, NO human bones (considering all the sacrificing they were doing, u would think there would be mountains of bones!), NO shards of pottery, NO worn-out leather sandals or straps thereof, NO shreds of tent cloth, etc, etc, etc. Everyone loves a good fairy tale. I too must confess, when I was but a lad, I was roundly brainwashed by Cecil B. DeMille’s theatrical spectacle “The Ten Commandments”. Who can forget the gripping scenes of Egyptian soldiers thrusting their swords into the cradles of poor Hebrew babies & withdrawing them again, soaked in blood? Or the dastardly Pharaoh Ramses (u know, Yul Brenner, with the sexy legs) ordering the Hebrew “slaves” to make bricks without straw – OMG!!! :( Then there was the poor 99-year-old Hebrew dude, a-stompin’ away in a pit full of moist clay, who made some smart-ass comment about ‘our god will free us one day’ to an Egyptian soldier who promptly whipped out his dagger and hurled it into the old man’s belly (I’ll give everyone a moment to get a tissue). Not done yet… the poor old lady (possibly Moses’ real mom) who gets her sash caught under a gargantuan stone the “slaves” are hauling along the sand, unable to free herself, sure to be crushed – OMG!!! – in swoops our hero Moses (the great actor Charlton Heston) who cuts the sash with his sword & saves the day! Funny, I don’t recall reading that particular account in the bible. :D Don’t even get me started on the parting of the Red Sea – amazing special effects for the time – check YouTube to see how they did it. Well, now I know THE TRUTH – it was all nothing but a steaming load of FAIRY TALES & SHAMELESS PROPAGANDA.
I have gone on WAY TOO LONG. I apologize for my verbosity (is that a word?). Just 1 more thing: How the #$%^ did Moses climb a freakin’ MOUNTAIN in nothing but a robe & sandals? AND how the #$%^ did he climb back down carrying 2 big stones??? I mean, ask any mountaineer today, even equipped with the best gear technology can provide, to climb a mountain, pick up 2 big rocks, & climb back down, & they’ll tell you to get stuffed.
Just sayin’
@TS, hiring an assassin is not the same as leaving it to Jesus. The correct situation is where an assassin tells you he is going to kill someone, and so you let him. Although the word ‘assassin’ has a negative connotation really, doesn’t it. Picturing Jesus as a king on a white horse fighting for righteousness and conquering his enemies, an unstoppable force which neither you nor I can do anything about, is a better description. And as we can’t stop him, what is your complaint? Sorry, I am not even going to try to fight against Jesus. You may try, but count me out.
Everyone loves a good fairy tale.
Until it becomes reality.
Talking about the film “The Ten Commandments”, here is a poignant example of the difference between fantasy & reality. Zoom in on the upper left pic & you’ll see the evil “Pharaoh” taking a souvenir snapshot of “Moses” in shackles. LMAO
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/543317142517640872/
@Ricardo,
Don’t know what happened there but my comment was posted above instead of below your last comment (just in case it’s not obvious that I responded).
I look forward to seeing Wimbledon Tennis Tournament this year. Hopefully, it is not like last year. I almost thought they should have called it Nippledon instead of Wimbledon. This is due to Jehovah’s Witness, Serena Williams outfit last year.
Last year, Serena won the Wimbledon Single Woman’s tournament with an outfit that showcased her nipples. If you do not believe me, take a look at this website Wimbledon: Serena Williams flashes ‘distracting’ nipples in see through top
Will this year, Anthony Morris III, a.k.a. JW Barney Fife Fashion Police officer, start to address this dress code issue with Jehovah’s servant Serena Williams or will we get another babble from “King” Tony? Or, will Anthony blame the LGBT community for Serena Williams’ wardrobe malfunction?
Nipples & tight pants. Oooh, I’m getting excited, Doc. lol
Frankly I doubt Princess Tony & the 7 Stooges down in New York will do or say anything about it. Remember the Watchtower credo: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” Reminds me of my teen years, when I had a friend who dated girl after girl after girl. Anyone else would have been “counseled”, but this guy happened to be the son of an elder, so….. I guess “Rank hath Privilege”. Funny thing though. Turns out this guy is gay. Eventually left the Cult, after doing the whole pioneering/elder/bethel thing, left his wifey for another dude. lol Makes me wonder if we won’t hear the same about the Trumpster 1 day. lol ironically
BTW Remember the horror stories the WT Supercult tells the “sheep” in order to frighten them from even THINKING about leaving/disobeying? “Bob left the organization because he didn’t like jehovah’s rules & standards. He got involved with a rough crowd. 6 months later he was strangled to death by the Hell’s Angels in the bathroom of a crack house. And poor Sarah. She committed fornication & was unrepentant. Now she engages in prostitution to support her heroin addiction & feed her AIDS baby.” LMAO
Why of course once you leave, your life becomes rotten. What a crapshoot. Religion and politics use fear tactics to influence their people to do what religion and politics wants their people to do. In my opinion, Watchtower is an evildoer.
Another thought. Ted pointed out that since jesus was allegedly resurrected within 3 days, he pretty much only sacrificed a weekend rather than his life. Kinda blows a gaping hole in the whole ‘sacrificial lamb’ concept. Plus, if u’re a parent, and ur son does something wrong, will u need to sacrifice ur daughter before u can forgive ur son? That thinking makes no sense whatsoever!!! I thought repentance was the requirement for forgiveness. “Well, God had to satisfy his Divine Sense of Justice, balance His scales.” What scales? Hello – He’s GOD – He can do whatever the **** He wants! Who invented those “Divine scales”? MAN!!! … the same lot that decreed that the leader of the Church must wear a big white hat & carry a staff like Little Bo-Peep, the same lot that insists on financial donations & takes ur hard-earned money!!!!!!!
That’s right, TS. I forgot about that. All this wailing and carrying on about Christs death when it wasn’t even a death at all. Have we been a bunch of suckers or what? So the poor old Jew’s have been slaughtered by the millions for a death that didn’t even happen and the fools still feel guilty to this day. Critical thinking shut down by guilt and fear…….that;s the gut’s of it.
Abso-freakin-lutely, I was SUCH a sucker, in many more ways than 1. And yes, fear & guilt are at the core of every religion. I’m sure even without the whole “Jesus” myth, the Jews would still find an excuse to feel guilty. Oy Vey!
I think it was Ricardo who said that even without religion, people would still find excuses to kill each other. So true. Check this:
1 The Armenian Holocaust of WWI – 2 million Armenians killed + several hundred thousand Greeks & Assyrians
2 The Ukrainian Holocaust – 10 million Ukrainians starved out by Stalin
3 The Chinese Holocaust – civil war in 19th Century China caused 50 million deaths in 30 years, including by genocide
4 The Rwandan Holocaust – 1 million Tutsis slaughtered in the most gruesome ways
5 The Cambodian Holocaust – 1-3 million Cambodians slaughtered in even more gruesome ways
6 The Soviet P.O.W. Holocaust of WWII – 3 million Prisoners of War of the Red Army executed by the Nazis
7 The Black Holocaust – everyone has heard of slavery, but did u know that approx. 1/3 of the African abductees never survived the trip back to North America due to the abominable conditions on the slave ships? (watch “Amistad”) Over the course of the slave trade, it is estimated that 6 million Negroes were not even lucky enough to become good Christian slaves
7 The Nazi Holocaust – of course, there’s the other 5 million souls we are not always reminded of, bringing the human total to 11 million
No need to get misty-eyed over just 1 particular group. My hat goes off to the Jews though. They are by far the best at publicizing their past plight. & who can blame them? “The squeaky wheel gets the grease.”
… that last item should of course be numbered 8. My coffee ran out. :)
God didn’t kill Christ. He just foresaw it happening and allowed it. The same as he allows your death. The perverts are the ones that killed Christ not God. Christ came to see if you would believe him, and if so follow. If you don’t that’s your choice.
I know God didn’t kill Jesus, messenger. My point was that he didn’t actually die….well not for long. He’s still around but we’re made to feel guilty about his supposed death.
How about, he didn’t actually die completely on the stake/cross, but his body went into shock, (there is a medical term for this but I can’t remember it) he was removed to the cave where he was brought around with a bit of care and was later spirited away to a place unknown?
@outandabout, Jesus must have died, otherwise it is impossible to be resurrected, and it was impossible for him to pay to God the ransom price. A death is a death, whether it be 3 days till a resurrection or 3 years till a resurrection.
As to your idea that Jesus didn’t really die on the torture instrument, I think Mohamed has beaten you to that one: it wasn’t really Jesus but his brother who died. Somehow a swap was made. According to the hadiths, I believe.
and a resurrection is a bringing back to life, Ricardo. Jesus lives, he’s conscious somewhere, so why the guilt?
Some people view Christ on the cross as him dying for our supposed sins. Some view it as the Romans informing him that his charitable status has been revoked. This was well before the days of political correctness gone crazy, you understand, and quite befitting of the times.
God, our Father, sets the example.
.
Hey messenger! WTF man? I was always taught jesus came to Earth specifically to sacrifice himself for Mankind. Is there a new bible? (God forbid) :D
Ahhhh……so he nailed himself to the cross? A career martyr? Obviously, they didn’t have Helpline back then. And they say things have deteriorated!
but, hey, Ricardo…..you’re pretty cute, man. Keep up the good fight.
@outandabout, are you trying to rattle my ability to think?
No, Ricardo, your thinking ability is fine, it’s just the style that needs tweaking.
Religious anti gay propaganda claims that God instituted
marriage to procreate, and have loving companionship .
But the first part doesn’t always work out does it?
Many loving couples are unable to have children, maybe
the woman is barren, or the man is only firing blanks.
in patriarchal societies you can bet it’s the woman who
gets the blame, and is kicked out.—>
So we’re left with just the second part, which can be
enjoyed by 2 men, or 2 women, and apparently gets no
complaint from God, as David loved Jonathan more than
the love of women.
The concept of homosexuality the biological predisposition
toward same sex attraction was unknown in bible times
even the word did not exist. What’s condemned by Paul
and others, is the perversion of heterosexuals, mainly men
having it off with young rent boys. No mutual affection
there, or mutual pleasure. Non of us would endorse that
I’m sure.
Jacob had a sound knowledge of selective breeding,–
carve some stripes on a stick and put it in front of some
goats who were copulating and low and behold stripey
kids. I’ll have to try that on my 2 dogs and if it works
I’ll enter the pups at Crufts as a new breed. LOL.
@Ted, are you advancing the idea that those practisind sodomy in Sodom must have been men with young rent boys, and so God got rid of them all?
Dear Ricardo I need to lend you my specs, I never mentioned
S & G, I don’t believe the story anyway, it’s too fantastic,
with confused and contradictory moral standards.
Check out Gods chat with Abe, God has heard about what’s
going on in S&G but needs to take a trip down there to see
for himself if the gossip he’s been hearing is true. No need
for me to ask how this squares with gods omniscience.
Gen, 18:20-21.
The place has been linked to homosexuality because of the
tale of the 2 angels but that doesn’t seem to be the reason
for its destruction, Ezekiel, 16:49-50.
The events are outside of any actual human experience,
Pillar of salt, ( Come on now Ricardo). Lot willing to hand
his daughters over to be raped, I’d fight like hell to prevent
that happening to my daughter, How about you Ricardo?
Those Bible story tellers knew nothing of the genetic forces
that control humanity, and of which you Ricardo are determined
in this regard to ignore. You’re entitled of course,
@Ted, in your headlong crusade to make the Bible say something it doesn’t, not only have you decided to ignore the parts that don’t agree with your view, you also put your own twist on scriptures that do not have a direct connection. Is not Ezekiel 16:49-50 directed to the northern nation of Israel, and God is insulting that nation by calling it Sodom? In verse 46 He explains he is talking about Samaria, the capital of the northern kingdom. Is not the northern nation of Israel a sister to Judah? So by calling Judah’s sister Sodom, is He not pointing out to the people of Judah how corrupted that kingdom has become? He is in the middle of giving Judah a good dressing down for seeking protection from Egypt rather than from Him (verse 26). So is your point valid?
As to your condemnation of the righteous man Lot: the Bible does not say he handed his daughters over, but that he offered them. Why did he offer them we are not told. You have jumped in and straight away said the guy is a scoundrel for doing this. But just as you can paint him in a bad light, he can also be painted in a good light. So why be so quick to condemn? Why not see the possibility that he knew the men would not take up his offer, and this showed how depraved they had become?
Genetic forces controlling humanity? So a pedophile is forced to molest children? He cannot possibly control himself? When do you stop hopping from foot to foot with excuse after excuse, not taking seriously what the Bible has written, nor what you yourself have written?
As to the pillar of salt, is it really beyond the creator of everything to transform a human in such a way? With what science has taught us about matter being made up of protons, electrons and neutrons, Jehovah with complete knowledge of these building blocks he has used in creation, could not add whatever mechanism was needed to turn one material into another by changing the basic building blocks? Really? And yet plants do a similar thing every day with photosynthesis, and so do we with our digestion process.
I think the quote from Albert Einstein is very interesting…” The more I know, the more I realize how much I don’t know”. It really is okay to not have an answer for every topic that comes up, it shows true humility…
Edited quote…”the more I learn, the more I realize how much I do not know”. Sorry
Ricardo,
According to your theology, God altered mankind’s DNA as punishment for an “original sin” which was not committed by them but by their fore-parents Adam & Eve. So then, isn’t it God who is responsible for whatever results from that DNA alteration, be it homosexuality, pedophilia, sickness, death etc?
In your own words from an earlier comment :
“……..as we get further away from perfection, the more effect this has on us, becoming weaker, genetic imperfection………”
So God set in motion the human condition which we see today, yet he then turns around and condemns and supposedly will eventually destroy those who are practicing things which he himself engineered?
Ricardo,
Although the men of Sodom did not accept Lot’s offer, THERE IS EVERY INDICATION HE WOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH WITH IT IF THEY HAD:
Genesis 19:8:
“See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men.”
In today’s society, Lot’s offer would be considered as child endangerment and human trafficking and he could be penalized for this.
@dee2, we can consider till kingdom come the things which could have happened (and even the unknown details to the events we do know). You can continue to condemn a righteous man and I can continue to defend him. For example, I could point out that the angels with Lot blinded the men who desired to commit sodomy. So, even if Lot had brought out his daughters, the angels would have made sure they were not hurt (they were considered righteous also in God’s conversation with Abraham). But what does this to-and-froing show us? That you are doing your best to dirty whatever story the Bible tells, and I am trying to clean the dirt. There is a positive view and a negative view. For some reason you are usually taking on the negative condemning view which no amount of logic, reason or explanation is able to change. You are stuck in your condemning ways no matter what. You do not want to accept that God may be loving, compassionate and good. You wish to defend bad as good, good as bad. That is your choice, of course. But it is hardly advantageous to you because you are missing out so many good things from the Bible.
If we accept that pedophilia is a genetic orientation, then
even so it needs to be controlled, by jailing if need be.
These are cases of adults harming children and causing
lasting trauma, I speak from personal experience.
The case of genuine homosexuality is quite different,
it’s consenting adults forming what is often a lifetime
partnership that harms no one. Reason needs to be applied
here, not black and white dogmatism.
True, pedophilia and homosexuality are different, that doesn’t change the fact that they are both unnatural and wrong.
@Ted, that is a personal opinion on homosexuality, which is neither supported by the Bible or by Jehovah, the destroyer of Sodom. You have ignored scriptures and twisted scriptures to try to support your stand. But in the end, if a person believes in God and the Bible, they must have the moral and intestinal fortitude to support truth and true worship. In your case, you probably do not have faith in God or the Bible.
You may be interested to know that today in Colombia, three homosexual men were able to register their marriage. Great, now marriage is no longer between Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve, but Adam, Steve and Harry. But why not? Anything goes if you live by the standards which you yourself make up.
@dee2, it seems you are going out of your way to misrepresent God. For example, if a mother tells her child not to run onto the road cos they might get hit by a car, and the child runs onto the road and gets hit by a car, whose fault is it? The mother? I don’t think so. The mother explained the reason. The child made the decision to do the wrong thing. So too in the example of Adam and Eve, but they were not children, and they were perfect. They were told what would happen if they ate the fruit. Whatever was in it corrupted their genetic makeup. They considered the result of their actions, at least Adam did, and thought the pros would be greater than the cons. History has proved them wrong. Rather than blame God, let us be happy that he can reverse this punishment for those who see the folly of Adam’s action. And learn a lesson from Adam, who also did not appreciate what his loving father had given him.
Ricardo, so you think it’s a loving and compassionate father who punishes a person’s children and grandchildren and their great grandchildren down through all time down through the centuries with death because one of their ancestors took a piece of fruit? According to the Bible, their only punishment was they were to die that day, not 9,999 years later. Nothing said about all mankind was sentenced to death, so there goes your analogy.
As in the case of Abraham walking along with 2 angels and Abraham was asking Jehovah not to destroy Sodom, if you read that account, Jehovah was also walking along with the two angels and then Jehovah broke off from the two angels and the 2 angels went down to Sodom to find 10 righteous people so they wouldn’t have to destroy it. Really???
It didn’t happen quite that way. Your breakdown is an over simplification.
Hey, maybe “ya-weh” occasionally likes to take a stroll, u know, hang with his buds. I’m sure he (or she) still pops in once in a while to catch a movie or chug down a brew. :D
P.S. All this doctrinal stuff is cool, but let’s not forget 1 of the goals of this forum: to bash Watchtower. :D Let me kick it off:
The Watchtower Supercult sucks
The Watchtower Supercult sucks
The Watchtower Supercult SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS
Only those who have a weak arguement tend to trivialise and poke fun at what they can’t comprehend. It’s a way of deflecting when you just don’t have the wherewithal to take someone on in a fair fight. You only do your arguement harm by being flippant. The sad thing is you don’t even realise it. You make it so easy.
@TS, sometimes you really get into the nitty-gritty. Next you’ll be singing kingdom melodies to the music of the Spice Girls.
@Caroline, another attempt to dirty God’s reputation? Do you never see the hamburger in front of you? Was God punishing them, or did they get recompence for their error? God did not force them to disobey him. He did not beg them to eat the fruit. They had free will. We may suffer now from their mistake, but we can learn from it. They did not appreciate all the things which God gave them. They did not develop a love for him, instead they betrayed him by abandoning him as their father. Are you appreciating all the things God has given you, Caroline? Or are you going down the same road as Adam?
As to Jehovah walking with Abraham, we know nobody can see God and live. So was it really Jehovah, or an angel who spoke for Jehovah? I can imagine if the angel was there, and when Abraham asked a question then an answer from Jehovah was broadcast from the angel’s mouth, a booming voice full of authority perhaps without the angel’s mouth even moving, then Abraham would see that as talking to Jehovah. The angel was but an intermediary between Abraham and Jehovah.
Any mother worthy of the title knows that children need constant supervision. Raising children would be effortless if you only had to instruct them once and they would then obey like robots. If little Johnny runs out on the road and is killed, what mother says, well, I warned him of what would happen. I’m sure she would carry the guilt till the day she died.
You say Adam was an adult and made an informed choice. When confronted with his error, why did he answer in such a childlike manner? Was he really fully equipped to withstand the wiles of the cunning serpent? My good news bible Gen.3:6 says after Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they were given understanding, not before.
@Jennifer, understanding about what? Additionally, remember that the Good News Bible is simplified English, good for understanding some of the more complex parts of the Bible, but not so good for accuracy for detailed study.
As to whether Adam was equipped to withstand the wiles of the serpent, anyone appreciating what God has done for them, who loves God as a compassionate caring father is equipped to withstand the wiles of the serpent and not betray their friend, evidence of which Job provided.
Sorry, I didn’t realize I have been consulting a K.I.S.S. bible.
Jennifer,
You made a very good point. Regardless of the translation used, it is clear that Adam & Eve were created without moral sense. Only gods had such knowledge at the time (Genesis 3:5, 7, 22).
Adam & Eve had no concept of right and wrong, just as toddlers lack such knowledge and the ability to distinguish between them; they were also like the animals in this sense.
They ate from the tree because they didn’t understand what “bad” meant. They were in a “catch 22” situation. They could only get the knowledge to not eat from that tree, only if they did eat from that tree.
They developed a moral sense for the first time only AFTER they ate of the magical fruit which somehow altered their mental capacities so that they suddenly advanced mentally and became able to distinguish between good and evil.
I watched the drama video, and paid particular notice to the scene in question, the so-called homophobic scene. There was really nothing in it. It summed up the JW position in demonstration form. A position held by many christian and non Christian religions not just JW’s.
This whole article by Covert Fade is sensationalist. Designed to make more out of something than there actually is. It’s a case of disliking the WT Society so much that any thing and everything they say is blown out of proportion just to make a point.
Sure, JW’s condemn sodomy, and according to the bible so does God. Does that make God homophobic?
Give me strength! Why don’t you tackle real issues? Everybody or organisation is entitled to their beliefs, and they are also entitled to express them, the JW’s did simply that, no more no less, within the appropriate forum (their own convention). If you don’t agree with their view don’t attend their convention or visit their website. It’s that easy! But don’t try and sensationalise it and make it something it’s not.
The JW view on sodomy is like any view on any subject, we are all free to take it or leave it. No need to blow it out of proportion.
U want REAL ISSUES? Check my next comment Einstein.
The point is this: You don’t have to agree with WT, but they have the right to their opinion as an organisation.
The whole video drama was about putting God first in ones life, not about homophobia. The so-called homophobic reference was almost incidental and occupied about 1 minute give or take.
To say that the WT has released another “homophobic” video is frankly, dishonest. Sure they took an opportunity to make a point, but that was in no way the overall focus of their presentation, to the contrary it was a fleeting, passing reference to their stand on homosexuality. The presentation as a whole had nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality.
That’s why this is a case of sensationalism. Forget about the 99% of content to focus on the 1% and make it sound like that was what the presentation was all about. You may have a great dislike for WT and fair enough, but when you need to stoop this low to make your point, well, it speaks for itself. You are really no better than they are. You critise them for taking things out of context, your no better if you lower yourself to doing the same thing.
Hey Ted, in reference to 1 of ur earlier comments, it’s quite ironic that Jehovah’s Witlesses condemn homosexuality between consenting adults, yet CONDONE CHILD RAPE. If there really is such a thing as Divine Justice, KARMA, Universal Law, poetic justice, etc, if there is ANY decency in the universe, they will get what’s coming to them.
you having fun today, TS? I doubt that JW’s condoned child rape, but rather, they didn’t know what to do about it so left it in J’s hands. Pretty dumb, all the same.
Speaking of…..going by the figures from the ARC, the JW’s are about eighteen times worse on the issue than the wicked Catholic’s. This is what will happen to a society that tries to follow the bible while placing human common sense, decency and intelligence as unworthy traits and labeling Free Thinkers as agents of Satan.
Havin’ a ball, as usual, though I haven’t been “out and about” today. :D Get it? ‘Cause I used ur username. ha ha ha Yeah, u get it.
@outandabout, I know you are very fairminded, but with regard to JW’s condoning child rape, the fact that our leadership have attempted to take no responsibility for the stupid policies set up by the GB which have allowed child abuse to be covered up, but rather have buried their heads in the sand, and the majority of our members have done the same, tends to point to condoning. I am not willing to make any excuses for this great injustice in our organization. If not condoning, it is at least giving tacit support.
yeah, thanks, Ricardo, I do try to be fair minded but I suffer from a rare condition known as ‘keyboard tourettes syndrome’ which can get complicated by recurring bouts of ‘Foot in Mouth’.
I agree with what you’ve just said, but with regards to individual members, what are they to do when they are being threatened with certain death if they speak up and get disfellowshipped as a result. No doubt ordinary Witnesses are struggling with this conundrum and some will be believing child abuse to be total lies for the sake of their own survival and just don’t want to believe they have been living a lie anyway. A realisation could take years to dawn. People can’t just wake up from a long held belief about something with a click of the fingers, some may, but most won’t. That’s just general human behaviour across the board and in all walks of life, not just the KH.
My opinion is that the GB reckoned Armageddon was coming decades ago and just put the scripturally difficult issue of child abuse aside for Jehovah to fix.That way, nobody will find out and the facade of the perfect religion can also be kept up. A win win. Armageddon didn’t arrive and the abuse cases mounted up until they reached breaking point.
Would it be wrong of me to point to the Witnesses as the perfect example of what happens to the only people who follow the bible properly and does this show that following the bible produces the perfect society?
@Outandabout, again you show yourself very fair, but too lenient in my view. You are making excuses for the brothers and sisters who aren’t speaking up about child abuse: they are scared of getting disfellowshipped. What! People don’t get disfellowshipped for speaking up about chid abuse. They can do what I do: bring it up to their elders, bring it up to the CO, make up question sheets about what the ARC uncovered and distribute them to witness relatives and friends. I haven’t been disfellowshipped for doing this. Disliked, maybe, but who cares? And I would like to see more witnesses doing it. I would like to do more: set up a charity for victims of witness child abuse offering counselling; go and interview the two women who were brave enough to come forward during the ARC and produce a book, written by a witness, telling their story.
Why are the brothers and sisters just sticking their head in the sand and ignoring this?
Secondly, you state the GB have been expecting Armageddon to come and so did not take steps to deal with child abuse. My mother says the same thing. But their stupidity in not dealing with it needs to be taken up by them, not swept under the carpet.
But your final statement sent my head rolling: the only people following the Bible properly. Have you gone mad? Where in the Bible does it say to set up an organization in which the leaders will bully the rank and file, abuse them mentally, emotionally and sexually? Jesus’ illustration compares this behaviour to that of the evil slave, not the faithful and discreet slave.
Perfect society? Is this a spiritual paradise, where elders in trucks are running down innocent victims (figuratively) and leaving them on the side of the road as roadkill? And brothers and sisters are too scared to get involved because they are scared of what the elders will think about them?
Now you’re just showing your ignorance.
Hey yeah man. Don’t pay any attention to ignorant ol’ little me. Why don’t u try asking an abuse victim what HE / SHE thinks? Jehovah’s Witlesses cover up cases of child rape, fail to report them to authorities, often ostracize those who DO file reports, refuse to warn their members about potential predators in their midst, conceal the identities of predators from the authorities, and often blame or otherwise mentally/emotionally torment the victim. Holy Sh*t, u know what? I WAS wrong! What Jehovah’s Witlesses do is FAR WORSE than merely CONDONING !!!!!!!!!!
Thanx 4 enlightening me!
Ricardo, anyone can write a book full of their ideas of right & wrong (ur “standards”). The Quran, Book of Mormon, Dianetics, Torah, etc, etc, etc detail their own sets of “standards”. But I still haven’t got a comprehensive, working definition of perfection. Honestly, I don’t believe there is one. An airplane is perfectly designed for flight. Does that mean that a train is imperfect because it can’t fly? A train is perfectly designed for its OWN purpose.
Therefore,
PERFECTION IS RELATIVE & SUBJECTIVE.
@TS, that was well done. I think you may have hit the nail on the head. So, are you perfect?
@TS, you know, with that answer above you almost sound like a JW.
It must annoy the hell out of Christians just a wee bit……that god loves Atheists just as much as them. The best of both worlds. I love my God, oops….Dog!……damn this dyslexia!
Where did you get the idea that God loves atheists? The scriptures certainly don’t give that impression in the slightest. You really need to familiarise yourself with the facts. Your suggestion is ridiculous in the extreme. What you propose is that God loves those who deny his existence. Ludicrous!!!
Ah, but I could change my mind, you see. God is a politician and he never bags anybody……. just in case….. so he’ll kiss my babies head at rally’s no problem at all. You have to get inside God’s head to understand that, though. XX
Ahhh… But if you change your mind you’re no longer an atheist are you? Your reasoning is childish.
It’s never wrong to make an adjustment in one’s thinking, word, and actions if we realise we were in error. If anything it shows a good and humble attitude all of which God appreciates.
There is no contradiction in this.
No no no……There’s always a chance I could change my mind, so like a good politician, he’s nice to even the opposition. He wants nothing more than for me to change my mind, apparently, and a vote is a vote. He’d accept Jack the Ripper and Genghis Khan no problem at all.
Mathew 10:28 says Fear God
Mathew 22:37 says Love God
John 4:18 says There is no fear in love.
so I’ll sit this one out unless there’s some thunder and a hand pointing down from the sky and an apology for His mess and terrible example. ‘Love me or I’ll kill you’……
wouldn’t an all knowing creator of the Universe not understand that more bee’s will be attracted by honey than vinegar?
Man oh man have you got a messed up view. I don’t think you realise how senseless much of what you say really is. Your view of God is twisted and incomprehensible. I guessing you’re another case of JW “damaged goods.”
@ANTONINVS, to be fair, it does say in the Bible that God makes the rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. I believe you have been sidetracked by the meaning of the word ‘love’, which has multiple meanings in Greek, including principled love, agape. God shows agape and loving kindness to all, Christians and atheists, by providing Jesus as saviour for all people to put faith in. Of course Christians are not annoyed by this, we wish good for all people and as Jesus taught we love others as ourselves.
We, as Christians, are glad that our God does not show prejudice towards anyone with regards to life’s necessities. He is fair, loving, compassionate and concerned. Qualities which should draw humble people to him, hopefully even atheists.
According to John 3:16 He does… “God so loved the WORLD” that he gave his only-begotten son…” That would include everyone I would think!
If ever there was an example of twisting scripture and taking it out of context this is it. Of course God loves the world it is his handiwork after all. But that didn’t stop him from wiping out all humanity except for 8 people in the past nor will it stop him from doing so again. In fact the bible records countless examples of God’s readiness to destroy those that oppose him.
Get real!
Thanks for that Antoninvs, you’ve described perfectly the hideousness of the ‘loving and forgiving’ god. Like I said, if god had an ounce of nouce, he would surely see that honey will attract more bee’s than vinegar. What he needs in order to get people to turn to him is example after example of unconditional love and compassion and not an ounce of violence anywhere, anytime. Afterall, isn’t that what he wants from us, or should it be ‘do as I say, not as I do’?But all god uses to convince us is the killing of millions and millions of people as an example of what will happen if we don’t submit.
Imagine walking up to a girl you want to like you and smashing her in the face as an example of what will happen to her if she doesn’t go out with you. Or would a bunch of flowers do the trick? Our self learned human morals are far superior to God’s. Honey versus vinegar.
Of course, I know why god is portrayed as violent. It is because violence was the norm at the time the bible was written. It’s how things were done. Forget all those Awake depictions of clean, well fed people of biblical times. Most people were living in what we would now describe as third world conditions and life was wretched and cheap. If god wanted to send his son as a message, why didn’t he choose the Chinese who had a civilization much more advanced at that time.
Jesus was supposed to have come back 2,000 yrs ago and the world has moved on without him.
The point is you lose nothing by believing in God. And if it works out he doesn’t exist so what?
But if it turns out he does exist and you don’t worship him, then you stand to lose everything.
Even if I were a betting man which I’m not, I know what odds make better sense. To believe in God is win win whether he exists or not.
And before you say anything, I’m not suggesting one worships God only to hedge his bets. God is not one to be mocked. But it does illustrate the point.
@ANTONINVS, you have a strong desire to defend scripture, which is good, but you have a weak understanding of the scriptures, which is not so good. I have explained some things to you in a comment which is forever being modulated..I think something has gone wrong with their modulating machine.
God loved the world of mankind, not just the planet, not just his handiwork. He loves humans in general, making it rain on good and bad. Did you notice the ‘and bad’ part? Jesus died for good and bad also, for all, good and bad, have the opportunity to put faith in and believe in him.
You have misrepresented Jehovah in your rush to defend your understanding of scripture, not understanding what agape love is and how God displays it. God has shown great love to humans in general, atheists as well as witnesses, but not destroying us already.
I gave readers the credit of understanding that when I refer to God’s handiwork mankind is included. I can see I have to spell everything out in detail. Are you not able to discern the principle?
While God is love, and he does extend the opportunity of life to all, his patience does come to an end. As we know all are free to accept or reject God’s kindness. Those who reject God’s kindness in effect reject him. Those who reject God are condemned in scripture. They were in Noah’s day, and on many other occasions in scripture.
We all have a choice, that’s true, but if we make the wrong choice God will not extend his mercy indefinitely. He has standards and those who unrepentantly flaunt those standards forefit their lives. It’s that simple!
I get your point that being a believer is a win win situation, but only in some cases. Whether or not a belief system is harmful or not depends on the type and level of belief, Antoninvs, as well as the individual involved, especially when arrogance and righteousness takes hold and religious fundamaentalism unwittingly encourages just that. It doesn’t actually set out to do that, but becomes unavoidable the deeper one gets into it. It’s built on righteousness which fosters arrogance. Does God want that?
Logically, there must be a way of worshipping God and yet avoiding the pitfalls you highlight. It is inconceivable that God would say “worship me” and then not provide the means to do so. This defies logic, and the very defenition of what God is, and how He operates as expounded in the scriptures.
So perhaps the answer is if one can’t find a group that they are comfortable associating with then worship alone. But the point remains, acknowledging and worshipping God is essential to salvation, if in fact He exists.
There are definitely ways of worshiping god without those pitfalls, Antoninv. There are religious organisations which do a lot of good charitable work for the community, don’t shun or ostracize people, keep their noses out of peoples personal affairs and don’t have an endless trail of abused and aggrieved people to give rise to websites such as this one. These ones are welcome to my tax money. Why don’t you seek them out.
ANTONINVS, trying to reason with u is like trying to reason with 1 of those overloaded Star Trek robots with smoke coming out of its ears, parrotting the same nonsense over & over again. Mr. Spock tries using logic, but it just “does not compute…does not compute…does not compute” because everything it hears runs contrary to its programming.
For the record, I am not a practicing JW. I reject much of what they teach. It just so happens that from a purely biblical perspective they have it right regarding sodomy. The bible condemns sodomy outright! With or without WT support the bible would still say what it says. Sodomites will be destroyed according to what the bible itself says, regardless of what WT teaches.
It has nothing to do with robotic programming. It is simply a case of reiterating what the bible itself unequivocally makes clear.
You really need to be less emotional/dispassionate in your responses to avoid making simple errors due to presumptious assumptions.
Shibboleth, kudos to u for bringing up HUMILITY – an underrated & overlooked quality in this world. The True Believers tend to throw their dogma around like monkeys throwing feces. Give us a break from all this flimmetty-flammetty mumbo-jumbo already!!!??? “I am special. I am different. I am 1 of the chosen. I have the inside track to Life, the Universe, & Everything. Do what I say or my god will zap u.”
HA…..HA…..HA
U know, some of us r just simple humans trying to live our lives. That may be too UNcomplicated a concept for those with such enormous intellects. But there it is. Sorry, I guess we can’t all be geniuses. :(
Hey Jennifer, excellent point. “Adam” had been alive only a few years, decades, whatever. “Satan” had been around for eons. Compared to “Satan”, “Adam” was but a child. Does not sound like a fair match to me!
@TS, someone doesn’t need to be around for long to build appreciation for what they have been provided. Adam had everything, but he did not have appreciation, he did not build a love for his compassionate, concerned, generous father. Adam betrayed his father, abandoning him out of greed.
How different was Job. Job wasn’t around for very long either. When he lost everything he said God gives and God takes away, let all flesh praise God. He had built up an appreciation and love for his heavenly father. Nothing Satan did could make him betray his God.
How about you, TS? Do you appreciate what you have received from God? Or, like Adam, have you been sidetracked and abandoned Him?
@Ricardo
Here’s one for you…a question asked by someone who reads their Bible regularly. She asked me if Adam and Jesus really could be compared as equals. Since Jesus is the last Adam to buy back what Adam lost, how could that be? Jesus had existed for eons and was with his father in heaven before creation supposedly. And Adam was created by both Jesus and Jehovah, living just a small amount of yrs in comparison to Jesus pre human existence. Sooooo, Jah knew Jesus would be faithful to him because of all the time they spent together, and Adam, well he got the short end of the stick because he didn’t have that close of a relationship with God. So, can the two of them really be said to have the same value?
I thought that was a VERY good question and had to agree with her. What opinions can we get on this?
@Schiller, your comments don’t help much. Perhaps if you make them shorter and try to keep to one topic in a rational way.
@Shibboleth, nice to see you are thinking about this. Always question why, take in more knowledge. I am very supportive of that. I will try to give a thoughtful answer, if not please keep me honest.
An equal did not need to be alive for the same length of time as Adam lived. When the Bible says Adam and Jesus were equal, it had to do with the value of what was lost, and what was paid back.
Let me go off on a tangent for a little bit and talk about Job. Job was not eons of years old nor had lived for years with God. I don’t think the Bible tells us how old he was. But Job did possess appreciation and love for his God. Unlike Adam, he did prove faithful under test, and his tests were hugely more tragic than anything Adam experienced. In fact Adam didn’t experience anything tragic because he capitulated immediately, on the very first test. All he had to do was not bite the fruit. Doesn’t sound very difficult at all.
However, although Adam and Job were similar, Job could not replace Adam as equal because Job was imperfect.
So the equality that was needed was not length of life, but the thing Adam lost and Jesus paid: a perfect human life. Just as Satan was a perfect angel who had gone bad, and the demons are the same, and as Adam and Eve were perfect humans who went bad, there is the possibility that Jesus could have gone bad. But Jesus, like Job, had appreciation and love for his God. Just as Job suffered huge tragedies, so Jesus suffered hugely. Unlike Adam who just needed to keep his jaw closed.
Yes, as you say, Jesus had an unfair advantage that probably made it easier for him to stay faithful. But Adam had the unfair advantage of not needing to suffer, and yet he was unfaithful. Both Satan and the demons had lived for a very long time in association with God in heaven, and yet were unfaithful. Was there some fault in God’s creations which made them unfaithful? Jesus and Job were able to answer ‘No’.
The benefit of sending Jesus was that God can say he gave mankind his very best, his firstfruit, and that is what He expects in return. What we learn from this is that appreciation for what God has done for us, together with a love for him and his ways, will keep us from ever proving unfaithful like Adam.
Has that thoughtful reply given you some meditating material?
What’s dogma spelled backwards? amgod, as in “I am God”
@TS, you are on fire today. What are you on? I’d like some.
I have several comments that have been undergoing moderation since the 11th, that is for 3 days already. What I said in the comments did not seem controversial to warrant such a long examination of their contents. By limiting our comments for several days in this way, our conversation is stilted to a certain degree. Is this common for other people also?
I’m not on a crusade Ricardo, they have religious
connotations, so that claim would be more
appropriately applied to you.
Anyway dear friend, the dance is getting a little
tiresome, at the moment you and I are completely
out of step with each other, so I think I’ll sit out for
a while. Although as a former dance teacher I never
gave up on a pupil, no matter how clumsy
But the hardest thing was trying to eradicate bad moves
they had previously learned from bad teachers.
@Ted, you were making up your own dance moves anyway. Preferring to abandon any pattern of dance steps which did not meet your taste, you took on a style which suited you, but in the past has been condemned for the effect it has had on social cohesion. Your dance had a lot of made-up steps, a lot of dodging and weaving, and how you were able to keep it up for so long without breaking your back gives us some idea of how flexible your backbone is. But in the end the dance comes to an end and the fat lady sings. The judge will give his verdict, and the dancers with the bad moves will not just have to leave the floor. They will never dance again.
Ricardo,
>>>”They were told what would happen if they ate the fruit. Whatever was in it corrupted their genetic makeup.”<<<
That must have been some fruit MADE BY GOD!
Eating fruit provides one's body with nourishment, so GOD MUST HAVE MADE the forbidden fruit with something really special to corrupt Adam & Eve's DNA so that genetic defects would be passed on to their descendants.
Since GOD MADE THIS FRUIT with such magical powers then God is responsible for whatever resulted from the DNA corruption, be it homosexuality, pedophilia, sickness, death etc. God set in motion the human condition which we see today.
Then what folly! – after the Fall, God cursed the ground for yielding the tree which he himself had caused to grow.
In reality, eating fruit does not corrupt a person's DNA. That only happens in magical stories and other works of fiction. We are dealing with a myth here.
If food was really capable of corrupting our DNA then maybe the day will come when scientists will develop a fruit with the perfect ingredient to counter the effects of the forbidden fruit………and that would give Jesus’ ransom sacrifice some real competition.
@dee2, you may remember the problem of ‘mad cow’ disease, a problem caused when a person ate meat from an infected cow. This disease has been found to be hereditary, passed by genes which have been mutated by whatever it was in the cow meat. May I also suggest you do a google search on ‘diet and our genes’ and see the way what we eat is able to change the expression of our genes. Viruses can also affect our genes. Please note this explanation from a scientist : Some viruses can integrate into your DNA and this changes the sequence in that area by adding the virus genes. HIV is an example of this kind of a virus. They introduce a “nick” into the DNA and then use a protein called integrase to insert themselves into the genome. Sometimes they can interrupt a gene, which would cause it to be defective, or it can make a gene that would be silent “turn on” which can cause problems.
If the fruit which Adam and Eve ate had an effect similar to ‘mad cow’ disease which corrupted their genes and was hereditary, then Jehovah was quite righteous in telling them not to eat that fruit. That they went ahead and ignored Jehovah’s advice and listened instead to His enemy, and thus got infected by whatever was in the fruit, cannot be God’s fault, and I am very surprised that again you choose to blame God for humans’ own folly. You always want to blame God. God told them not to eat the fruit. He did force them to eat it. This was their decision, and they received recompense for their error. They reaped what they sowed, in other words.
Scientists won’t be able to reverse the effect on our genes, as they do not know what each genome does, they do not know which genome is the imperfect one and neither do they have an example of a perfect cell in order to compare the genomes to see what we are missing. The body of Jesus, the only perfect man, was taken away by God. The only way we are going to have this situation reversed is through faith in Jesus and obedience to him during the 1,000 years.
Ricardo,
Wow! That was some fruit wasn’t it!
Not only did it corrupt Adam & Eve’s DNA but it also somehow altered their mental capacities so that they suddenly advanced mentally and became able to distinguish between good and evil.
Adam & Eve were created without a moral sense so how did eating the forbidden fruit make them now understand the difference between good and bad? How did the fruit instantaneously add an ethical sense to their brains?
Dee2, we can’t forget the other fruit that if they ate, they would live forever but Jehovah kicked them out before they found that tree. Too bad, the serpent didn’t tell them about that tree first so that everybody the gave birth to and all those that they gave birth too (all the human race) would be living forever. Does that account sound like a fable or an allegory or both maybe?
Good point Jennifer,
Regardless of the translation used it clear that Adam & Eve were created without a moral sense.
They had no concept of right or wrong, just as toddlers lack such knowledge and the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. Adam & Eve were like the animals in one sense: they had no knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. Only gods had such knowledge at the time (Genesis 3:5, 7, 22).
They ate from the tree because they didn’t understand what “bad” meant. When they ate from the tree, it was only then that they understood what “bad” and “good” were. They could only get the knowledge to not eat from that tree, only if they did eat of that tree. They developed a moral sense for the first time only AFTER they ate of the magical fruit which somehow altered their mental capacities so that they suddenly advanced mentally and became able to distinguish between good and evil.
Yet despite their being created without moral sense we are told that God did not forgive them. He blamed them, and their billions of descendants anyway, demanding the ultimate penalty many times over. A harsh and unfair God, harshly punished a naive couple and everyone else.
This contrasts with courts around the world which show mercy to those who do not know right from wrong. A “Not Criminally Responsible” designation is a fundamental principle of many justice systems. Accused persons must have the capacity to understand that what they did was wrong – otherwise they cannot be found guilty of an offence; such persons are not fit subjects for retribution or punishment.
Hello Dee2,
Thankyou for expressing the thoughts I was awkwardly trying to convey.
Twisted Sister and myself have been soundly rebuked for such rebellious reasoning. But, if that’s the worse that can happen, hey, I might make another comment.
Also, thanks for the link to the Yale bible course. I’m enjoying them whenever I have time.
Regards Jennifer
@Dee2, You are quite mistaken if you think Adam and Eve had no moral sense. Before they ate of the fruit they listened to God’s value of morality. After eating the fruit they made their own standard, independent of God. That they had moral sense can be seen in the fact that they were made in God’s image, and perfect at that, so they had a perfect standard of morality to follow, if they so wished. But they also had free will, and their decision to make their own moral standards is what got us into all the trouble we are now. Their ability to decide themselves can be seen in their astonishment that they were naked; this was not a problem when following God’s standard as they were pure. Now, after eating the fruit they were no longer pure, and they knew it. And here we are still making decisions like Adam and Eve: do we follow God’s standard of morality as far as homosexuality goes, or do we make up our own standards?
What I find fascinating in your case, dee2, is that you do not even believe in God, but your comments always seem to be blaming a God you do not even believe in.
Who you should be blaming is Adam, who didn’t need to be tortured or go through heart-breaking trials in order to break his integrity to God. He didn’t go through even one trial. He immediately betrayed his loving, generous father. He acquiesced immediately, on the first test, selling us into slavery. And you are giving so much pity for such a spineless unappreciative disloyal scoundrel. How you are able to do this is unbelievable. Why not put the blame where it belongs: on the disloyal scoundrel Adam, who sold God, and us, out.
Ricardo, the Genesis account of Adam and Eve has so many holes in it that show to me that the story is a simple allegory to explain the difference between humans and animals. It isn’t a matter of blaming God because I for one, don’t believe in the god of the Bible. Maybe there should be moral standards that “God” wants all humans to follow but I don’t see any evidence to believe in the Jews’ god Jehovah. Just as the Bible condemns homosexuals to death, it also condones buying and selling your own children into slavery and saying that those slaves could be killed because they were only “property”. You only look at certain parts of the bible that you agree with but ignore the parts you don’t agree with, unless, you think it is okay to kill people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath.
Ricardo,
If Adam & Eve had moral sense BEFORE they ate the fruit then why did God say the following AFTER they ate the fruit?
Genesis 3:22:
“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil”.
Please explain to us Ricardo: how did Adam and Eve become “like one of US” (Genesis 3:22) after they ate the forbidden fruit?
>>>>”Now, after eating the fruit they were no longer pure”<<<<
So are you saying that God is not pure because after eating the fruit Adam & Eve were now on the same level with God(s) – they became:
"like one of US" (Genesis 3:22).
So whatever God(s) was in terms of knowing good and evil Adam & Eve became exactly that. So if Adam & Eve were no longer pure after they ate the fruit then that's exactly what God(s) was too – not pure.
@dee2, they became like God in that they set their standards themselves. God’s hope was that his creation would choose to live by His standards, which are the best and work best for human happiness. Now that Adam and Eve had rejected God’s standards of right and wrong, they became their own determiner of what was right, what was wrong, their own masters. They became their own God, in that sense.
No longer happy to live under God’s rules and guidance, they were put out of the house God had made for them, leading to the chaotic world we have today. Is it better than what God offered? Is it worth not trusting God’s standards and instead determining our own? I do not think so, and so give my support to Jesus and God’s kingdom.
You, though, seem intent on supporting Adam and Eve and the despicable disastrous action they took.
@dee2, my answer to this is being moderated, and as the moderation process takes a week or more, my answer will be in quarantine for some time, by which time it will be irrelevant. Let me try to repeat the thought below.
Adam and Eve became like God in that they set their standards themselves. God’s hope was that his creation would choose to live by His standards, which are the best and work best for human happiness. Now that Adam and Eve had rejected God’s standards of right and wrong, they became their own determiner of what was right, what was wrong, their own masters. They became their own God, in that sense.
No longer happy to live under God’s rules and guidance, they were put out of the house God had made for them, leading to the chaotic world we have today. Is it better than what God offered? Is it worth not trusting God’s standards and instead determining our own? I do not think so, and so give my support to Jesus and God’s kingdom.
@Dee2, it didn’t work. I’ll try to beat the moderator by breaking it up into smaller sentences:
Adam and Eve became like God in that they set their standards themselves.
Ricardo, where did you see that in the Bible?
@Caroline, biting the forbidden fruit was not God’s idea. It was not his standard. If they weren’t following God’s standard, were they not following their own standard?
God’s hope was that his creation would choose to live by His standards, which are the best and work best for human happiness. Now that Adam and Eve had rejected God’s standards of right and wrong, they became their own determiner of what was right, what was wrong, their own masters. They became their own God, in that sense.
God’s hope was that his creation would choose to live by His standards, which are the best and work best for human happiness.
Ricardo, where do you see the word “hope” in regards to Jehovah’s instructions to Adam?
Gen 2:15- Jehovah set them up to cultivate the Garden of Eden and to take care of it.
Jehovah was certainly not hoping there that they would sin. He set up meaningful work for them. Do you disagree that that is what God did, Caroline?
Now that Adam and Eve had rejected God’s standards of right and wrong, they became their own determiner of what was right, what was wrong, their own masters.
When they rejected God’s standard of morality, they became their own masters of right and wrong.
However, Adam and Eve became their own masters in determining right and wrong.
Ricardo, according to the Bible, they became like God when they ate the fruit. Read Dee2’s comments about why that doesn’t make any sense.
@Caroline, I don’t need to read the confused thoughts of someone who doesn’t even believe in God, Adam or Eve.
Eating the fruit was evidence of what had already taken place in their minds.
Why should this not make sense? They had replaced God as their master, the one who told them what was right or wrong. They thus became like God, they now decided for them what was right or wrong.
They became their own God, in that sense.
Ricardo, again, they became “like” God so that sounds good to me.
Oh, but Caroline, do you not remember the warning God gave? They would die? Does that sound like a fair trade: the decision to disobey God vs everlasting life?
No longer happy to live under God’s rules and guidance, they were put out of the house God had made for them, leading to the chaotic world we have today.
Why did Jehovah make clothes for them if god was so unhappy with them? Why were their children offering up sacrifices to him, including Cain? Why did Jehovah protect Cain after he killed Abel?
@Caroline, what a tremendous expression of mercy these events showed, coming from Jehovah! Do not forget to add these ones onto your list of ways God showed love in your notebook.
Is it better than what God offered? Is it worth not trusting God’s standards and instead determining our own? I do not think so, and so give my support to Jesus and God’s kingdom.
Again Ricardo, it all boiled down to which tree they ate from since they could have eaten from the tree of everlasting life, so why didn’t God let them eat from that tree? If Jehovah loved those “children” he made, then why let them be talked into eating that tree? Would you let an evil person into your house to do that to your children, like eat poison when they didn’t know the poison would kill them?
Everything you said in your comments came straight out of Watchtower publications. What you need to do is get a notebook and start in Genesis chapter one and take notes and think about every scripture you read and take notes and you will see by chapter 20, that it is nonsensical.
@Caroline, To give humans the opportunity to display their love, to prove their love to Him, is one of the most loving provisions Jehovah made for his servants. How horrible it must be to have a relationship with a person but never to be able to show love, to show appreciation to them because they won’t let us.
What you are suggesting God do for Adam and Eve, to not give them any avenue to display their appreciation and loyalty is indeed evil, inhumane.
Was Jehovah expecting too much from Adam? My goodness, Adam fell over at the first hurdle! He lacked appreciation.
Caroline, I suggest you get a notebook and, starting from Genesis, write down every example of love you see Jehovah display. First…made the earth. Next…made oxygen. Then…made heat in the form of the sun. keep going. Don’t forget to add things like: a wife for Adam, ability to have children, fulfilling work, free will, mercy in allowing the human race to continue. I could go on, but you get my drift.
Ricardo,
Further to Caroline’s comments, where in the Bible mentions the things which you have stated?
This is what the Bible states:
In Genesis 2:17, God ordered Adam to not eat “of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil…..”
Comparing God’s words in Genesis 3:22 to the serpent’s prediction in Genesis 3:5:
“For God knows that when you eat from it your EYES WILL BE OPENED, and you will be like God, KNOWING good and evil.”
“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to KNOW good and evil”.
The eating from this tree would give them KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING which they did not have before, which was an attribute restricted to the gods.
The Genesis story is about the knowledge, understanding, ability that Adam & Eve would gain by eating a fruit, not about what they could potentially do with this knowledge/moral sense after they acquired it, whether that be setting their own standards and becoming independent of God as you have indicated. There is no mention of the latter in the Genesis story, this is what you and the WT have read into it to create your own narrative.
So the question then is: what knowledge/understanding did Adam & Eve have BEFORE eating the fruit, what knowledge/understanding did Adam & Eve have AFTER eating the fruit?
According to the story they DID eat from tree of life because they were allowed to eat from EVERY tree in the garden except one: the tree of knowledge of good and evil, so what happened?!
@Dee2, your questions show a very low ability to understand what you read in the Bible. To say that Adam and Eve had no knowledge before they ate the fruit is preposterous. How could they talk to one another if they had no knowledge? They would not know what words meant. Adam named the animals, so he must have known what animals were, and remembered the names. When God told them not to eat the forbidden fruit, they knew what fruit He meant. Does not your claim that they had no knowledge seem rather disingenuous?
Shibboleth,
Eating from the tree of life meant that Adam were created mortal, subject to death even BEFORE they “sinned”. They had to eat from the tree of life in order to sustain their life and thereby overcome their mortality.
It is obvious that the two trees mentioned in the Genesis account are only to be taken as symbolic. Why? Because the creator of humans and the universe would not have given trees magical properties to either extend life or give knowledge, according to the Bible, God is the fountain of life, hence life springs from him, and if he takes away that breath of life he gives to humans, he obviously is responsible for their expiration…without the breath of life, there is no living being, plain and simple.
@Shibboleth, so there was no tree in the centre of the garden with forbidden fruit on it, or there was? Was it an invisible tree? An angel pretending to be a tree? A hologram? Maybe one of those man-trees from The Lord of the Rings?
Sounds like an old Flip Wilson show that was here in the States…”the devil made me do it!” Common reaction for humans who wish to blame someone else for their lot in life instead of accepting their responsibility for their situation. I’ve been paying attention to how many witnesses are blaming others for their present condition, (i.e. Satan, Adam, eve, government, imperfect flesh) and waiting on someone else to get them out of it! They need to get their derrière in gear and take action instead of waiting for their knight in shining white armor to “save them”. How about helping to clean up the earth, taking part in community projects to show god they are definitely good candidates for being stewards of a new earth? HA! Yeah that’s what I thought…let someone else do it, I’m busy preaching (*_*)
@Shibboleth, you make a good point about getting in and doing things. I agree wholeheartedly, witnesses should be doing more of this. It is quite disappointing that the excuse you give is so close to the truth.
How about you and me start up a charity to collect donations for victims of Witness Child Sex Abuse? It is my dream to start a charity like this to arrange counselling for the victims. I want to go from display cart to display cart asking for donations.
Ricardo,
That is definitely a very good idea you have. I don’t know about going from cart to cart, but setting up a Jehovah’s Witnesses Child Abuse Survivor charity is workable!
Hmmm!
That would be a very noble cause.
My name is grace, just to make sure who is sending this. Why do you worry so much about other people’s belief when you don’t understand your own. You seem to be very judgemental; I would not do that you.
Sometimes, Grace, you have to fight fire with fire, but speaking for myself, I try not to be judgmental, but sometimes I slip up or fail to express myself in the correct manner. I think you’ll find most people here are the same on both sides of the argument. I think very little actual ‘worry’ goes on here. When a new topic comes along, everything is forgotten for awhile and then it’s back at each others throats ha ha. You should try it! XX
@Grace, I can attest that outandabout is usually fair-minded. A problem for some of us here is that we understand our own beliefs too well.