Watchtower whitewashes failed 1975 prophecy in 2017 convention video
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The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is notable for making prophetic statements that fail to come to pass.

From foretelling the resurrection of ancient bible characters into 1920’s San Diego, to predicting 1874 being the start of Christ’s second coming, a close study of Watchtower history throws up many, many instances of failed prophetic dates.

Dates such as 1975.

For a detailed breakdown of the full story, please check this extensively researched article at jwfacts.com, but the basic facts of the case are that Watchtower leadership in the 1960’s decided that Biblical chronology indicated that 1975 would mark 6000 years of human existence. Thus, they felt it would be very fitting if Jehovah God were to bring Armageddon at that time.

This belief was featured and taught in many Watchtower publications and public events, and so once 1976 rolled around without Armageddon taking place, things got a little…awkward.

Whilst Watchtower has indeed since suffered many other instances of prophetic failure, 1975 remains as one of the most enduring and embarrassing instances of the religion’s grand proclamations going unfulfilled.

Now, it appears that one of the videos for the 2017 Regional Convention, entitled “Don’t Give Up,” will address the 1975 teaching. The full video (video 49) can be viewed here on the AvoidJW.org website, and is part of a larger teaching segment with the theme of remaining faithful to the Watchtower organisation despite trials.

However, the video is extremely deceptive in the way it presents the events of the late 60’s and early 70’s to the audience.

In fact, I would go so far as to call it a whitewash.

I’m going to break down line-by-line the statements made in the video about 1975, and place them against statements from Watchtower publications written at the time, so that you can make your own judgement as to how truthful you think this video is being about one of Watchtower’s most infamous failures of prophecy.

1975: Where did the expectation come from?

The video starts discussing the 1975 issue around the 1:43 mark, when the character narrating the video says:

“Back then, some were looking to a certain date as signifying the end of this old system of things.”

Now firstly, it’s interesting that this video refers to “a certain date,” rather than specifically mentioning 1975 as the year. In fact, nowhere in the video is the year or the teaching given by name. This has the effect of muddying the waters; many younger Witnesses will not have heard of this 47 year old teaching and by being vague, Watchtower makes it harder for them to pinpoint and research this incident. However, much more concerning is the phraseology;

“Back then, some were looking to a certain date as signifying the end of this old system of things.”

Who are this “some?” We are never told, but this use of words subtly disassociates the belief from official Watchtower doctrine. It gives the impression that the 1975 expectation was simply the product of a few rogue Witnesses, spreading their own teachings in the backroom of Kingdom halls. But do the facts taken from Watchtower’s own publications support this?

Here is just a handful of the many Watchtower publications at the time which discussed the possibility of a 1975 armageddon date.

“The published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man’s creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E. So six thousand years of man’s existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation. So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man’s existence. How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! This would be most timely for mankind. It would also be most fitting on God’s part, for, remember, mankind has yet ahead of it what the last book of the Holy Bible speaks of as the reign of Jesus Christ over earth for a thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ. It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the ‘Lord of the Sabbath,’ to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man’s existence.” Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God 1966 pp.26-30

“Does God’s rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man’s existence and also the first 6,000 years of Gods rest day come to an end? The year 1975. It means that within a relatively few years we will witness the fulfilment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the “time of the end”.” Awake! 1966 Oct 8 pp.19-20

“Another speaker, F. W. Franz, the Society’s vice-president, forcefully impressed on the audience the urgency of the Christian preaching work.
He stressed that, according to dependable Bible chronology, 6,000 years of human history will end this coming September according to the lunar calendar. This coincides with a time when “the human species [is] about to starve itself to death,” as well as its being faced with poisoning by pollution and destruction by nuclear weapons. Franz added: “There’s no basis for believing that mankind, faced with what it now faces, can exist for the seventh thousand-year period” under the present system of things. Does this mean that we know exactly when God will destroy this old system and establish a new one? Franz showed that we do not, for we do not know how short was the time interval between Adam’s creation and the creation of Eve, at which point God’s rest day of seven thousand years began. (Heb. 4:3, 4)
But, he pointed out, “we should not think that this year of 1975 is of no significance to us,” for the Bible proves that Jehovah is “the greatest chronologist” and “we have the anchor date, 1914, marking the end of the Gentile Times.” So, he continued, “we are filled with anticipation for the near future, for our generation.”—Matt. 24:34.” Watchtower 1975 May 1 p.285

“The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these “last days” will undergo fulfilment.”Watchtower 1968 May 1 p.272

And if the publications at the time were dropping very very heavy hints, some of the public talks given by senior Watchtower officials were positively explicit. Take for example the following talk which was given at the 1967 District Convention in Wisconsin, by District Overseer Charles Sunutko. (audio available at jwfacts.com)

“Well now, as Jehovah’s Witnesses, as runners, even though some of us have become a little weary, it almost seems as though Jehovah has provided meat in due season. Because he’s held up before all of us, a new goal. A new year. Something to reach out for and it just seems it has given all of us so much more energy and power in this final burst of speed to the finish line. And that’s the year 1975. Well, we don’t have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. And don’t wait ’till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then. As one brother put it, “Stay alive to Seventy-Five“”

I could go on and on. Watchtower teaching material at the time was saturated with this. Here is a chart from an October 8th, 1971 Awake that strongly suggests the Millennial Reign of Christ will start on the 6000th year of human history i.e 1975

 

So as we can see, the Witnesses alive at this time had this expectation because the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society were publishing and preaching teachings that specifically cultivated this expectation.  

1975 was not a product of rogue Witnesses; it was official Watchtower doctrine.

1975: Who encouraged Witnesses to sell homes and quit jobs?

The narrator in the video goes on to say:

A few went so far as selling their homes and quitting their jobs.

In the context of the video, this is presented as having been an unwise thing to do. It is indeed true that Witnesses at the time sold homes, quit jobs, delayed surgical operations and so forth because they expected the world to end. I personally know of one Witness family that, in the present day, still suffers a significant financial shortfall because of actions taken back in the 70’s to sell properties and abandon financial investments.

However, what was the Watchtower response at the time to the actions of these Witnesses? Was it to warn against such rashness?

Hardly.

Take for one example an article printed in the Kingdom Ministry of May 1974.

“Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.” Kingdom MinistryMay 1974 p.3 How Are You Using Your Life?

Far from advising caution, or presenting such activity as rash or unwise, Watchtower actively encouraged such ones to sell up and abandon their jobs, due to the “short time remaining.” In other words, Watchtower in 2017 is frowning upon the conduct of Witnesses who were simply doing what they were encouraged to do by Watchtower in 1974!

1975: Who sounded a scriptural note of caution?

The narrator continues:

I admit, I was ready to see this old system go away too, but something just didn’t seem right. Both at meetings, and in my personal study, I was reminded of what Jesus said: “No man knows the day or hour.”

Again, is this accurate? Were witnesses being reminded at meetings of this scripture, in the context of trying to dispel any premature expectations about 1975? Let’s take a look at one such paragraph, taken from an article which was heavily hinting at a 1975 armageddon date and using Bible chronology to back up this expect

35 One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows , neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”! Watchtower 1968 Aug 15 p.494 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?

We see again that, instead of Watchtower sounding a note of caution that maverick Witnesses failed to heed, quite the opposite is true. Witnesses were being explicitly told at meetings not to use this scripture to raise doubts.

Technically, the brother in this video is going against the council of the Governing Body of his era.

What would have happened to the brother in the video had he voiced these doubts about the 1975 expectations, and used this scripture to support his argument? In a worst case scenario, if he publicly refused to relent, he may have been disfellowshipped for apostasy.

1975: Who took responsibility?

The video’s coverage of 1975 concludes with the narrator saying:

After that year came and went, most of those who had wrong expectations made the needed adjustments.

Again, this use of words infers that the matter was the fault of individual Witnesses “running ahead of Jehovah’s Chariot”, whereas we have seen that all evidence clearly shows these wrong expectations came as a direct result of official Watchtower publications and public talks. The membership figures for 1976 and onward show that many left the religion as a result of this debacle. Others suffered in terms of lost income, property, life opportunities, postponed surgeries and the choice to defer having children.

Did Watchtower make adjustments? Did it ever apologise for what was clearly a huge error of judgement that essentially amounted to false prophesy? Did it ever acknowledge the pain and suffering that these rash predictions, which ran contrary to scriptural advice, had inflicted upon many faithful Witnesses who acted in good faith on what they were told?

Sort of.

Five years later, the following appeared in the Watchtower magazine.

“With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. … Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility .” Watchtower 1980 Mar 15 p.17

Now, that might strike you as something of a mealy mouthed, evasive apology, and you’d be correct, but to get even this from an organisation so historically loathe to admit error as Watchtower demonstrates how bad the damage was at the time.

We get a similar apology in the 1993 Proclaimers book, a book which endeavoured to provide a comprehensive history of the Witness movement from the 19th century onwards. Whilst the book is in reality a very sanitised and biased account of the founding and growth of Watchtower, it nonetheless does address the 1975 issue, probably because it simply had no other choice given the large number of Witnesses in the early 90’s who would still have vivid memories of the incident, and would note any conspicuous absence of it from Watchtower’s “official” history book;

“Brother Franz then referred to the many questions that had arisen as to whether the material in the new book meant that by 1975 Armageddon would be finished, and Satan would be bound. He stated, in essence: ‘It could. But we are not saying . All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.’ … However, other statements were published on this subject, and some were likely more definite than advisable.” Jehovah’s Witnesses – Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom p.104

Again, not exactly the humble repentance one would hope for, featuring a very selective quote that is clearly not representative of the more hysteria-inducing articles and speeches being given at the time. Yet both these excerpts establish the following fact;

In 1980 and 1993 Watchtower admitted the fault was with them, not the with the rank and file Witnesses.

Yet now, in 2017 that same religious organisation is putting out a video implying the exact opposite.

This video is presented in such as way as to whitewash any responsibility Watchtower had for the debacle, and to denigrate as foolish the faithful Witnesses of the 1970’s who were simply following the teaching and council Watchtower gave them.

1975: Why now?

Why would Watchtower even discuss this topic in a video? Much like the ongoing child abuse scandal, 1975 is a topic that the organisation usually pretends does not even exist, only acknowledging it obliquely when absolutely necessary. So why make it a subject of a convention video that all Witnesses will see, albeit in a whitewashed, victim blaming fashion that even manages to avoid even stating the discredited date?

I can’t be certain but I can think of two possible reasons:

  • The video very strongly stresses the idea of not serving God with a date for Armageddon in mind, and focuses on the need not to get discouraged when expected prophecies fail to materialise. Watchtower has recently been struggling to get its absurd “Overlapping Generations” teaching fully accepted by the rank and file. This teaching came in around the time I began to leave the religion and I remember how many of the witnesses I knew were privately uncomfortable with it, admitting it was hard to “prove it from the Bible.” If Watchtower’s repeated attempts to drum the teaching into the Witnesses are anything to go by, this is probably still the case. Some Witnesses may well be unsettled that the New World, once so close at hand, seems to be receding further and further into the distance by the day, and that the teachings being used to pinpoint its arrival appear to getting flimsier and flimsier with every revision. Thus, by referring to the 1975 incident in this way, Watchtower might be trying to condition its followers for further dissapapointments when the overlapping generation teaching is also abandoned, or when another decade rolls past with no New World appearing

 

  • This video may also be an attempt to rewrite the history of 1975 so that Watchtower appears blameless for the mistake. This is possibly due to the fact that, although the number of Witnesses alive during the events of 1975 is shrinking, the newer witnesses are becoming more and more aware of the embarrassment due to discussion in the ranks and also from internet exposure to this infamous incident from “apostate” websites and online comments on youtube, twitter and so forth. So this might be an attempt at damage control; to present an “acceptable version” of the debacle to Witnesses who are hearing the truth from other sources, even if this version clashes with Watchtower’s own previously published version of events.

Whatever the motivation, I think the final word should go to the Bible book of Deuteronomy 18:22, where God is telling the nation of Israel how to view those who speak false prophesy.

When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word is not fulfilled or does not come true, then Jehovah did not speak that word. The prophet spoke it presumptuously. You should not fear him.’

Sound like a religion you know?

 Follow me on twitter @covertfade.

Follow JW Survey on @jwsurveyorg

 

 

* Many thanks to Paul Grundy and his website JWfacts.com for the reference material and information presented in this article.

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231 Responses to Watchtower whitewashes failed 1975 prophecy in 2017 convention video

  1. Truth seeker says:

    “The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these “last days” will undergo fulfilment.”Watchtower 1968 May 1 p.272

    Regarding this quote above. Please see paragraph 8 of the same article on page 272 & 273 of the may 1st 1968 watchtower.

    This gives watchtowers understanding of Mark 13:32 in relation to the year 1975.

  2. Adam Heckathorn says:

    An article would be written about 94′. It was another absolute last possible date when I came in. “70 or 80 years”
    from 19 14

  3. messenger says:

    A very well written article Covert Fade. Thank you for your commitment to truth.

    messenger

  4. Sharon Christensen says:

    This is such an awesome article! I remember it all like it was today…the meeting, what was said…what I as a kid wore even…looking over, passed my two brothers sitting between me and my parents.., When ,something like this would be said…I always looked over to see my Fathers expression…Father was shaking his head…then Mom gave him a dirty look…I dreaded the ride home, as from most mtngs, 35miles or so…my stomach tightened up….on the way home Father said…these men should NEVER take it upon themselves to say such things…Bible says…No one knows….It will affect toooo many peoples lives…Mom proceeded to give him the usual lecture …not to spk against the Faithful Slave….Who was right? The GB can not deny what they said…People sold homes, held off families…went into debt thinking would not have to pay back…some when ’75 was a no show committed suicide….when “the end “was fortold to come… in earlier days, people never made hay or prepared for the winter ahead for themselves or their livestck, back home…Father said good thing Grandpa had extra…yet he told them….you mk incase it does not happen…Granfather and Father have been gone a long time…still no end. So many times as kids we would sit quietly as our parents argued as to what the publications said…Father was always checking…Mom believed and did not question a word they said…for fear of…developing a wicked heart…speaking against the…”Holy Spirit”! I used to fear they would split up over and then what would happen to me and my bros. I am a writer and artist of sorts…I see life in cartoons…or tend to look for comedy etc., that is how I coped with my abuse ….I realize everyone is not that way and can not understand or see it like I do…That is why I like John Cedars way of doing things at times…He never fails to put a smile on ones face…He has gone thru a lot I am sure and still does as we all have in different ways…He dresses just fine…It is not what is on the outside…it is the genuineness of ones heart. Sometimes we have to mk ourselves smile in one way or another…I write my hubby a note every morning, I usually draw him a cartoon to mk him laugh…life for him has always been serious….We need to be happy, despite what we have come thru….otherwise we are a victim. I know a lot of hard work and study goes into this …thanx to those who can do this…I am tooo tired, sick and in pain most of the time…yrs of stress has taken it’s toll…so nice to just read all and say…oh yeah I remember that…THANX SOOO MUCH! I found it funny….Watching movie…”Throw Mama From The Train”…. When Billy Crystal crawls out on window ledge to get away from Danny Devitos Mama who is soo abusive, when Danny(Owen) asks him why he is out there…His response …Selling the WT what do you think! ;-)). I know…Not many Wts are happy with the…”cart”, or Sopia and Caleb…plastic…They are saying….What next! Time will tell….Thanx again”.

    • Doc Obvious says:

      Nice comment, Sharon. My parents are the same way. Dad would use logic and reason and cause waves. Mom would hope the Watchtower is right and not cause waves. Mom told Dad and myself why don’t you become an elder and fix things. My dad and I would reply, they do not want logical people as Elders or Ministerial Servants. Watchtower wants stupid, dumb, and ignorant people taking the lead. Dad and I would always work overtime to avoid arguments over “spiritual” things. I would tell mom that actions speak louder than words either printed or talked about. Thank God I was born in 1974. My sisters would have been doomed. All I can say is that the 1975 prophecy is another Watchtower Boner.

  5. Sharon Christensen says:

    Hello it is me…Adele Zzz? .For Normal folk…hds up…I never liked playing charades….Like June on Honey Bobo…It is what it is…But we had “Big Smoke” here today to, I can not blame farmers…Barbeques with wrenches apprtly…upon chking of late, snippin and a talkin going on, I have twins! Rebekah was not only won! Harey, curly…horns or not….Russeled and all…I am off to make a burnt kake… Cuz apparently ET is a comming…the fourth long gone…May? Not much of a space saver….anyhow…Got to dig it and you no? Like a certain someone said….If you can no find me in the springz….perhaps in the Mat Ruzz….Signal Finally cleared! duh…I always have severe hd pain…No thinking kleirly! Letter mite have wrked.! like Father would have said at Beaver Pond….Fyre Away! Got it!!!! Duh! Other folk, do not even bother trying to get this… !!!apptly…smokey signal …zup!…..Just have you no…ocifers pasted agin today….and sand in car…someones a sitting at night, brk in st Bat Serum, ol hut, not sure or conky donkey klicnk. Chk locate….and fuzz signalled…picture tk udder day….psted instant, falls Rapid…Leisure…Not sure if this a help….

  6. nelfox07 says:

    Stop your prophecy. Idiot.

  7. Paul says:

    I have tried explaining this to the occasional door knocker who wasn’t around back then, but they don’t know what I’m talking about. To them, I’m just some old fart who misunderstood things at the meetings when I was a kid. So thank you for laying out what happened.
    BTW. You need “loath” for “loathe” in your article (sorry!) 🙂

  8. Just read your article. Oh my!
    I guess ‘the’ question can be answered now. The GB do know what they’re doing.
    This is 1984.
    It’s not just mind control, it’s ‘let us reprogram your memories’ as well.
    To take the dignity from the elderly, turn on your most faithful followers, put them in stocks to have fruit thrown at them before banishment by their community.
    And worst of all to KNOWINGLY destroy peoples faith right at the end of their loyal lives.
    Despicable!
    I used to think the WTBTS was a juggernaut. Not any more.
    It’s a totalitarian cult.

  9. ScotWm says:

    One of the most outrageous Watchtower follies is the San Diego mansion called Beth-Sarim – House of Princes. This elaborate, palatial estate was financed with “dedicated funds” as ordered in 1929 by self anointed Watchtower president Joseph Rutherford. This mansion was deeded to ancient biblical princes, including Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David, who Rutherford had prophesied would be resurrected in the near future.

    When Rutherford was asked by reporters how he would be able to distinguish the real biblical heros from imposters, he replied, “The men whom I have designated to test the identity of these men are officers of my societies and have consecrated themselves to the Lord, they will be divinely authorized to know impostors from the real princes.”

    Today, instead of just one lunatic false prophet leading the Watchtower cult, we have seven lunitic false prophets. Recently, these seven Governing Body members have admitted that they are not inspired, that they make errors in doctrine and that the spiritual food they feed Christ’s sheep is imperfect. In spite of these disclaimers, the Watchtower leaders insist that they represent Jehovah”s organization on earth. Do as they say or be disfellowshipped and shunned.

    http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/beth_sarim.html

  10. chantal says:

    Well, dear readers, I as well was present at that frightening (yes) , and life changing pre-1975 anxiety ridden furor. It was just as described by others in this post. i was only 16 at the time, but had total doubts from earliest memory, even though a born-in. However, years of indoctrination had me believing this nonsense. Changed my life radically with poor choices. I want them EXPOSED!

  11. messenger says:

    I started studying in 1975. I can’t remember the month, but I believe it was near the start of that year. Because of having relatives that were JWs I started going to the hall early on during my study. I don’t recall the 1975 hype then. However, I asked my relatives when I read about it around 1980, and they confirmed it. More recently I read more telling info about it.

    I never hung my hat on the WT teaching the end would happen during the 20th century. I never served God for that reason, the reason the end was coming soon, in my lifetime.

  12. Meredith J says:

    So so pathetic. What a lame excuse for a spiritual video. They sound like robots. The story is so cheesy. So ‘Stay Alive Till 75’, well well well. They made a big deal about this in the 80’s that I remember. Some were whispering then that the Watchtower’s comments about how some somehow misunderstood what the society was saying was not really true.

    How dare they have condemned people for selling their houses to go pioneering. That is so despicable and evil. Considering, that their policy was to pioneer and Jehovah will look after your needs. To think that they called these self sacrificing ones foolish is beyond me. Some obeyed what the society was saying, only to find that they had been totally misled. How dare these people say that these people left because they were weak and were impatient and unworthy of the prize of everlasting life. Hypocrites! Offspring of vipers!

    The people who left were smart and being led by the principles of Jesus Christ and that is in Matthew 7 about the fruits that a religion produces. In this case it was lies. Therefore it was a false religion, back in 1975. I have also read that in the old pictures that we used to see where the halls were filled with ‘brethren’ in the early 1900’s that many of them had left in a few years as they had realised that the bible students were fake.

    • Big B says:

      @ Meredith J:

      “The people who left were smart and being led by the principles of Jesus Christ and that is in Matthew 7 about the fruits that a religion produces. In this case it was lies. Therefore it was a false religion, back in 1975”.

      Actually all Adventist movements, including this one, have roots in the falsehoods of the the Millerites who were the followers of the teachings of William Miller. In 1833 Miller first shared publicly his belief that the Second Advent of Jesus Christ would occur in roughly the year 1843–1844. When it did not occur there occurred what came to be called “the Great Disappointment”.

      The lies have just continued from that point onward with many groups branching off this Millerite “advent” doctrine. By mid-1845, doctrinal lines among the various Millerite groups began to solidify, and the groups emphasized their differences, in a process George R. Knight terms “sect building”. During this time, there were three main Millerite groups—in addition to those who had simply given up their beliefs. The Jehovah’s Witnesses (International Bible Students) along with the Seventh Day Adventists came from
      this Millerite nonsense.

      The Great Disappointment is viewed by some scholars as an example of the psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance and True-believer syndrome. The theory was proposed by Leon Festinger to describe the formation of new beliefs and increased proselytizing in order to reduce the tension, or dissonance, that results from failed prophecies.

      According to the theory, believers experienced tension following the failure of Jesus’ reappearance in 1844, which led to a variety of new explanations. The various solutions form a part of the teachings of the different groups that outlived the disappointment.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

      The expectations of 1975 therefore, are nothing more than a continuation of the “Great Disappointment”. It is what Adventism is all about namely; whipping up religious fervor on the impending event, Jesus is a commin’ or the end is nigh. Then when the expected event does not come well it’s excuse time. His presence (coming) was in 1914, it was just invisible; yeah that’s it, INVISIBLE!

      Almost all the predictions for 1878, 1881, 1914, 1918 and 1925 were later reinterpreted as a confirmation of the eschatological framework of the Bible Student movement and Jehovah’s Witnesses, with many of the predicted events viewed as having taken place invisibly. Further expectations were held for the arrival of Armageddon in 1975, but resulted in a later apology to members from the society’s leadership.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Tower_Society_unfulfilled_predictions

      So the lies continue and the ‘Sheeple’ are still enamored with the falsehoods they are being taught. The cognitive dissonance must be eliminated by the faithful and discreet slave thus New Light or new understanding must be implemented to keep the flock in line. Otherwise the flock may leave and run off a cliff like a bunch of lemmings.

      • Meredith J says:

        Ha, thanks for the interesting information of the history of these fake predictions Big B. Every Witness should make it their business to investigate the history of this fake church. You owe it to yourselves.

      • Mrcaptain says:

        Who or what was the 3rd Millerite group? LDS?

        • greytower says:

          Mr Captain, the third Millerite group is NOT Latter Day Saints. Like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons claim to have restored true religion, but restorationism is not the same as what Adventists/Millerites believe.

          Charles Russell followed the chronology of William Miller re Christ’s second presence, and today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses still cling to 1914 as being the supposed date when Jesus started to rule (invisibly) from heaven. LDS hold to no such notions.

          No, the third group are the original International Bible Students formed by Russell. After Rutherford took over and made sweeping changes (introducing a publishing company and insisting everybody must become a publisher), the original Bible Students voted with their feet and left. That’s why, in 1931 Rutherford brought in the name Jehovah’s Witnesses, to distinguish them from the Bible Students who still clung to Russell’s teachings.

          These Bible Students are still active today even though they are small in number. Interestingly, Jehovah’s Witnesses branded the Bible Students as the “wicked slave” in comparison to the “faithful and discrete slave” which they claim they are.

  13. Sharon Christensen says:

    I remember as a kid…my brother and I, playing in Granmas old summer kitchen, where Granfathers old book library was…scarry pics in those books for sure…weird and wonderful…like a comment earlier….hell depicted as the comment said…those pics are still so vivid in my mind many yrs latter, the feelings that came along with the sight of them, as well as the sound of JF Rutherfords force full talks on the old gramaphone we would wind up, we listened and were in fear of….Was it He who stated…Millions Now Living Will Never Die At All! ? …..That made many people happy, including us kids…Never having to say good bye to our beloved Granparents and Parents, relatives of any kind…Unfortunately another lie they told so as to enslave good folk. The time to brk the chains that bound us all is long overdue. Many are still young enough to enjoy their life yet…but for many of us who are older….They took the moments that can never be returned,no monitary compensation can return them, and many who heard that talk are long gone….A Fairy Tale? Like in Mr. Beans movie…was it Johnny English one….where he whipped up some Cardinals frock…and wriiten across his bttm…Look Busy Jesus is comming! Sound familiar?

  14. Sharon Christensen says:

    I can not complete my survey, i have tried to go into sooo many sites and I try utube videos from Apostale sources not Jw.org, no messages come thru only weird and wonderful, I could not vote on the charitable status thing Chiafade said about. When I read my survey it always goes away…this has gone on for a very long time…other things come thru fine…but not these things…I have forwarded info. to relatives I read on the Survey when it came thru before and at times…I was always blaming my brother, hence previuos comments when I could get thru…I figured he is up to no good on my comp….He is mad at me and I at him…Is it possible that my info thru here is getting interferred with by JW.Org….I have Jw friends and relatives on my husbands side that have been over and driving by and a neighbor lady that is. She is or was the human resource teacher in local school, I have been diligent around here telling about Jw abuse etc., because she has trouble childern in her care…there is no mystery that my Fther in law was hated in New York by Orgy…I see now why you use diff names, but I am not ashamed of being an apostate. People who know me can vouch for my personality…my haters can hate me all they want. What I say I say because of my experiences and how I have been treated. I did my best when I was being a Wt…It still was not good enough, they always found fault. My family and friends know what I am like, if they want to ridicule me and shun me that is their choice. I, like soo many on this site are just glad to be free…If things do not improve with my Survey comming thru, my husband said he shall get a diff. comp. for me and try that…does anyone else ever have this prob…or is it just me? Ps…could not find the real Kool Aid…Does $Store / no name brand work to mk the statement…or must be real one? Thanx….just wunderin.

  15. TG says:

    I noticed in this video the two year texts that are shown are from 1975 and then 1976. Just an observation

  16. Sister drifted says:

    I cannot find this video anywhere- help please

  17. Willows says:

    The Watchtower has a history of printing dates in their publications and distributing them to Watchtower members and the General Public.

    1. Studies in the Scriptures. The dates proved in time to be wrong.

    2. Watchtower Rutherford 1925. Proved to be wrong.

    3. Watchtower 1975. This date also proved to be wrong.

    Who gained from these publications … $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  18. bunter says:

    I wonder why they do not state the year 1975 explicitly in the video – when it is obvious that it is indeed referring to 75. Guess it makes it more real to younger ones who may only have heard rumors about a 75 failure

  19. Hillary says:

    I just had a day dream about being at the convention and screaming out, “1975! 1975!” during the video. lol Would it be worth the hour’s drive and parking madness? Maybe I could join the sign holders that I used to stare at as a kid as we drove in. Hhmmm…

  20. bunter says:

    Missed out half my post…

    I wonder why they do not state the year 1975 explicitly in the video – when it is obvious that it is indeed referring to 75. Guess it makes it more real to younger ones who may only have heard rumors about a 75 failure

    My personal take on the video – with a tip of the hat to Covert and Paul Grundy at JWfacts

    • Sister drifted says:

      Is this the actual video from the convention??

      • bunter says:

        yes – but i doubt if they will include my observations on Friday afternoon 🙂

        • Will says:

          This convention video is wicked. I don’t use that world lightly. This is deliberate deceit. What a horrible religion!!!

          • outandabout says:

            The watchtower, in fact all of U.S. style fundamentalism began and survives on deceit. It simply cannot operate on anything else. The internet is now seeing to that, trouble is, WT is moving away from print and can now alter or delete anything they need to online. Can they last long enough to pull it off before crumbling under the weight of lawsuits and exposure and the dying off of all who remember their past. Once everybody who is in possession of written material is dead and their old WT literature has gone to the dump, where is the proof. Hopefully, online.

    • Free Thinker says:

      Can this video be accessed through a “neutral” URL like from Youtube? I would like to forward it to several people (JWs), but not as being posted on an “apostate” website, for this would defeat the purpose.

      Thank you.

  21. Doc Obvious says:

    Watchtower, the brotherhood is not there for you to exploit them financially due to bad policies enacted by your legal departments lack of leadership.

    We will not finance your 1,000 plus building projects. Your brotherhood lives a simple life and are looking forward to a new system where money is not everything.

  22. Bad Penny says:

    TO ALL YOU JWs – Read these words from Ezekiel 22: 27-30 and ask yourselves who could these words really apply to?…. ‘Her princes in the midst of her are like wolves tearing prey in shedding blood, in destroying souls for the purpose of making unjust gain. And her prophets have plastered for them with whitewash, visioning an unreality and divining for them a lie, saying: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said,’ when Jehovah himself has not spoken……..Their way I will bring upon their own head,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.’
    Open your eyes, remove the blinkers, the Governing Body are NOT inspired of God. They are false prophets. Jesus warned us ‘Look out that nobody misleads you…’ You do not need any human mediator or G.B. to lead you to Christ. Look for yourselves at scripture without the undue influence of Watchtower doctrine, and see if it does not open up before your eyes.

    • greytower says:

      Well said. Jehovah’s Witnesses should also pay heed to Jesus’ warning in Matthew 24:48-51. In this PARABLE, where Jesus speaks of the faithful and wise servant (or faithful and discrete slave) who looks after the master’s household while the master is away, he goes on to draw this comparison:

      “But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time’, and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

      Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the master returned (invisibly) in 1914 and started to rule from heaven. But he has not yet returned, and in spite of claiming Armageddon would be over some time after 1975 and before the end of the 20th century, the “slave” has turned to beating his fellow servants into greater activity. The servants are being abused and manipulated by the very men who claim to be the faithful and discrete slave, appointed by Jesus to look after his household. Those men are the Governing Body. Their reward will be in keeping with the wicked way they have treated the master’s household.

    • messenger says:

      How did God’s spirit bear witness with their {GB members} spirits when they claim God does not contact people {including them} in our day? If God did not contact them who did? WT does claim demons contact people in our day, so was it a demon for then, since they claim God did not?

      And if God does in fact contact people in our day, as I assert, then why doesn’t WT know it? Other Christian denominations know that, why not WT?

      • messenger says:

        then=them in last line 1st paragraph

      • greytower says:

        God’s Spirit does not bear witness with the Governing Body for the very simple and good reason that the GB are false prophets, who presume to speak in the name of Jehovah (Ezekiel 22:28). They claim that Jehovah directs them through his spirit and through angelic help. If that was true, they would speak truth because it is impossible for God to lie. They claim that since 1919 they were appointed as Jehovah’s faithful and discrete slave, to dispense spiritual food to the members of his household. Yet thy have had to change all manner of false claims and predictions since 1919. They do not speak the truth and the truth is not in them. Trouble is, they are leading millions into spiritual darkness.

        • messenger says:

          They (those running WT) will pay for their sins, but I believe some JWs will make it. When analyzing WT beliefs the stupidity is apparent and cannot be sidestepped by claiming one has to be a spiritual person to understand those. For instance, they claim Christ picked them in 1919. Why not in the late 1800s when Russell started the group? Russell was dead in 1919, so why would Christ wait until 1919 to choose Russell’s religion, especially since he, Christ, took his kingdom throne in 1914 (according to WT) while Russell was still alive? Also WT is teaching God picked it over churches teaching falsehood while WT was teaching the dimensions from an Egyptian pyramid are a witness from God relating to Bible scriptures and prophesies.

          Yes I believe the WT and those running it are in danger of severe judgments from Christ. But I believe some Christians in WT will make it. But as a person awake I believe it dangerous for an awake Christian to teach WT crap to others or even profess to others they believe it. Awake people who teach WT false teachings are denying Christ and the Holy Spirit. Those who deny Christ before men he (Christ) will deny before his father. If Christ denies a person that person has no forgiveness of sins and suffers the resulting consequence. Thus the danger of being a WT servant, especially an awake one.

          • greytower says:

            Messenger, the key change to 1919 is not that they claim Jehovah chose them as his earthly organisation then but the NEW claim that the Faithful and Discrete Slave had NOT been in existence since 33 C.E. as previously believed. Now they say the Faithful and Discrete Slave was appointed by Jehovah in 1919 – thereby nullifying every false claim and prediction made by Charles Taze Russell (who died in 1916). At a stroke they can now dismiss all the rubbish published up till 1919. They have effectively wiped the slate clean and disassociated themselves from everything Russell taught.

            The extent of their manipulation of the history of the organisation is breath-taking. Nobody can access the old literature (unless they have a library collection dating back to the start of the 20th century) and the “sanitised” version of the history of the organisation bears little resemblance to the truth. None of this is new. Every 30 years or so they rewrite the old, false teachings and present the new version as “increased light.” But if Jehovah chose the Faithful and Discrete Slave in 1919 then why are they still having to change “truth” supposedly received from Jehovah (with the help of his spirit and the angels) from 1919? The claim that Jehovah appointed the Faithful and Discrete Slave in 1919 is just an invention of the Governing Body to distance them from everything they taught prior to that moment in time. It is transparently dishonest and disingenuous.

            Honest-hearted Witnesses who realise how they have been deceived are desperate to leave, but the fear of being shunned is so great that many of them remain silent and try to keep a low profile. It is my observation that God is drawing many of them out of the spiritual darkness into the light and setting them free from slavery to the organisation. God knows who belong to Him and the Holy Spirit is active in the lives of many Witnesses. Some are so disillusioned and traumatised they become atheists, and will be eternally lost. But the more the leaders of this organisation are exposed, the sooner this crumbling edifice of spiritual manipulation and abuse will be destroyed and the captives set free.

          • Shibboleth says:

            I’ve always wondered why we are called “Jehovah’s witnesses since it’s based on an Old Testament scripture. I mean, wasn’t it Jesus who said in the New Testament “…you will be witnesses of me to the most distant parts of the earth”? Hmmm.

          • Bad Penny says:

            Shibboleth – Yes, you are right – (Jesus words at Acts 1:8).
            When you research the early writings of the scriptures you will find that the name ‘Jehovah’ never appeared in the Greek New Testament. Not once did Jesus use his Father’s personal name. Watchtower put the name in to their translation to detract from the importance of Jesus in whose name every knee was to bend (Phils 2:9-11). Just another mind control tactic to make them look like they are the only ones who follow Jehovah!
            News for you Watchtower, he ain’t the one to follow!

  23. Diane Dolbee says:

    I graduated high school in 1974 and was offered scholarships which I turned down as I KNEW the end was at hand. In fact, I had been told most of my life that I wouldn’t graduate high school. Like all of us, so many lost opportunities.

    I do recall finding a diary I had written at the age of eight and the entry for the day said, “Only 11 more years until Armageddon.” As if a kid could make that stuff up.

    I finally made my escape in 1986, but I’ll bet if I’d had the internet, it would have been a whole lot sooner.

    Best to you all,

  24. Eyes opened says:

    This is a great article! I’m from that time period. This article and many of the comments are very perceptive and thought provoking. Perhaps it was mentioned, but which talk is associated with the infamous video “49”? That info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

    Regards

  25. Whip It says:

    Through the economic decisions my parents made, led them to both die without any money & having to be helped by children, in fact they became financial burdens,

  26. Sarah says:

    Honesty seems to be an old fashioned virtue. Watch Tower based their 1975 belief on the idea that Adam was not on his own for very long. The sixth day didn’t end until after Eve’s creation. But chronology in the Bible starts with Adam’s creation. WT said Adam wouldn’t have been alone for long, so the sixth day would have ended soon after his creation. But Genesis indicates Adam was alone for years. ‘At last’ said Adam when Eve was created. The sixth day could have ended any number of years after Adam was first alive. Whose to say those creative days were seven thousand earth years long anyway?

  27. Ricardo says:

    I have a question for you guys. At the last regional, we learnt in the Bunker videos that a message of judgement will be proclaimed during the great tribulation, before Armageddon. Therefore, going back to 1975, if the org was so convinced Armageddon was happening, that 1975 was it, why was no message of judgement started?

    • messenger says:

      Because WT correctly understands, as do other Christian denominations, that the great tribulation referred to by Christ, and described in the book of Revelation is different than Armageddon that is referred to by name only in the book of Revelation. WT’s plan is to wait until there is clear evidence the GT has begun before it starts that judgment proclamation upon outsiders. That’s been WT’s plan for as long as I can remember.

      Many Christians believe the GT will last for 7 years because of scriptures in the Bible books Daniel and Ezekiel. WT has not identified a time limit from scripture for the GT, but WT agrees the GT proceeds Armageddon, or at least believes it is the very last part of the GT. So, you could see the trouble WT knows it would be in if it started a proclamation of doom to outsiders because God’s judgment has begun before the GT really starts.

    • greytower says:

      Ricardo, in the build up to 1975 Jehovah’s Witnesses were proclaiming the imminence of Armageddon, that the time was short and that people had to turn to Jehovah (and the organisation) in order to be saved. We were saying that Jehovah’s judgment on the nations was about to happen. That’s what motivated so many people to become baptised Witnesses, fear that they would not survive Armageddon unless they were part of Jehovah’s earthly organisation.

      All this stuff about the good news of the kingdom message being changed to a message of judgment and condemnation on the nations is simply a variation on a very old theme. You must turn to Jehovah’s organisation while you still can. There will come a day when the doors will be closed (just like with Noah’s ark) so you had better listen up and do something about it NOW, before it’s too late. Of course, they were saying something very similar back in the 1930’s when my parents became Witnesses. We were saying something very similar back in the 1970’s before I left the organisation. They are saying the same thing now, only it’s been dressed up and presented as “increased light.”

      It is true that the Bible speaks of a period of great tribulation prior to the return of Jesus, a period of seven years after the false prophet and The Antichrist are revealed. Not just any old antichrist, but the one who sets himself up in a position of world domination and who claims to be the Messiah. He will make a seven year peace treaty but will break it half-way through. After that, Christ Jesus returns, accompanied by all the angels (including Michael the archangel, by the way) and will rule the nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years.

      The Witnesses have failed to read and understand Revelation chapter 20 which says the resurrection of the dead does not happen till the thousand years are over. Jesus will rule, not from heaven, but on earth and after the final battle comes the new heaven and the new earth. That’s in Revelation chapter 21. However, I digress. The point is the Governing Body are trying to whip up the faithful into another frenzy of activity. It’s more like trying to flog a dead horse, the way thousands are leaving the organisation every year.

      • Shibboleth says:

        Interestingly in the bible teach book it brings out the word messiah in Jewish and Christ in Latin translated means ” annointed”. So…..who are setting themselves up to be the false Christs or messiahs as per the words of Jesus regarding prophecy of the last days? Just thinking out loud.

        • greytower says:

          What’s worrying is that 8 million Witnesses cheerfully say they are not “anointed” (or born-again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit) and the promises in the New Testament are mainly for the anointed. They don’t believe Jesus when he said you must be born-again if you are to see the kingdom of God. I know they think only 144,000 persons since the time of Jesus can be born again or “anointed” and they have a heavenly hope. But a kingdom needs subjects, so if they are to be subjects of the kingdom (on earth) then they need to be born again. Don’t they realise they have been excluded from the new covenant and that means Christ Jesus is not their mediator? Yet they think the 144,000 will speak up for them and somehow they will be able to be part of this kingdom? They think they can earn the right to be declared righteous by merit of their own good works. Oh, such a travesty of the gospel message!

          Also, the June 2015 Watchtower published an article saying the Antichrist is made up of Trinitarians who do not promote the name ‘Jehovah’! That’s right, Christians who are born again and who worship God and who have come to saving faith in Christ Jesus are part of the Antichrist, according to them. Yet Jehovah’s Witnesses do not acknowledge who Jesus Christ really is. They deny the deity of Jesus and that he was bodily resurrected. Their saviour is a created angel called Michael. How can they be witnesses to Jesus when they don’t even know who he is? Yes, it begs the question, who really is the Antichrist and the false prophet?

          You know, I think the basic problem with earth-bound Witnesses is that they don’t want to spend eternity with the Lord. Their minds are set on earthly pleasures. That’s why the paradise earth teaching is so powerful – it appeals to their physical natures – and because they do not have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ (which is the Holy Spirit), they remain spiritually blind. They look to the Governing Body instead of to Christ Jesus.

        • messenger says:

          If I remember correctly, and it could be easily verified by anyone possessing a concordance, the word anointed is only used 4 times in the Greek scriptures. The scrips talk about being baptized in Holy Spirit, But the one I like, is “God’s Spirit bears witness with our spirit that…” because this one is more descriptive of its purpose. Those actions by God, not men/women do not put those people at odds with Christ, quite the contrary.

          However, with all the different Christians in the world it does seem that 7 of those professing to be Christian while proclaiming all other Christians must pledge allegiance and follow only their scriptural interpretations and directions in order to access God and maintain God’s approval proves them to be false Christ. Why? Because that’s what Christ said. See the book of John. There and other places Christ repeated that many times. He claimed to be the only door (approach) to God. Also, WT claims Christ is mediator between man and God for only a very small minority of even those they include as Christians. WT and the gb have set themselves up as a mediator between Christians and God. They will never use that terminology but as a matter of fact it is true, since WT only decides how a Christian should live and what they must believe according to WT teaching to its followers. No other Christian church I’m aware of makes such claims.

  28. Whip It says:

    Messenger & Ricardo, yes i am back from a break, the WT?GB have dug a very deep hole for themselves, its like telling a lie, & then telling another lie to get out of it, or digging a hole, Ricardo the bunker video was the worst scare mongering i have ever seen, absolutely appalling,

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It,
      Welcome back. Yes, I also thought the bunker video was appaling. But what a great example of propaganda, thought control and scare tactics. What strategy did Jones use in Jonestown to stop the faithful leaving? The fear that the government was coming to get them, and that it would happen soon.

      What tactics is the org using? The same: the governments are coming to get us, and it’s happening soon, the time is imminent. Combined with the fear of those who talk negatively or those who even think negatively, and the paranoia of anything non-witness, and almost the entire contents of the mind control toolbox were emptied just in that one drama. What was left out was the extreme emotional experiences, but we got that with Sergai and also with the disfellowshipped daughter.

      I thought, wow, if I ever want to start up a cult, I will use these same tactics.

      Hey, I’ve been having a bit of a clash with my brother about the future of the org. I’ve been telling him we are on the way out, the org is going to collapse, people are leaving. They’ve had enough of the mental, emotional and sexual abuse by our elders. He says I’m only seeing what I want to see, that the org will go from glory to glory. So I sent him in an email Cedars’ map of the decreases around Europe and other places like Oz, NZ, Canada, Japan, Korea etc. I mentioned how many in his congregation have been bullied by the elders and have left, mentioning them by name (cos I have a coffee with some of them each week). Want to see how this concerned, compassionate elder who is my brother responded?

      He replied, in part: I fear for you. Your negativity and disillusion is so strong that I can’t see any way that you can stay part of Jehovah’s Organisation. Associating with the disillusioned negative doubters that you are speaking to via email or associating with by reading their stories would wear down the strongest spiritual person.

      Are you one of those disillusioned negative doubters, Whip It?

      • messenger says:

        Aside from the BS from elders and lies from them and the gb WT teachings just don’t make any sense to a real spiritual man or a physical man. WT admits its own teaching of past have been just as incorrect as it claims other Christian churches teaching are. When have its teachings ever been correct, or even admittedly correct by WT? Never. Why then should anyone expect WT’s teaching to be correct today, or ever. Other Christian churches beliefs do not vacillate nearly to the degree WT’s do. And yet WT teaches Jehovah is always the same. “no turning of a shadow” in him so to speak. Therefore Christians who understand Biblical truth, as revealed by Holy Spirit must not keep changing their minds on the same Bible subject, or how to apply Christian living. Christians are taught by Holy Spirit. Take Paul as an example. The apostle, nor none of those in Jerusalem taught him. Holy Spirit did.

        If WT had stuck to original beliefs, whether correct or incorrect, its claim to be God’s channel might at least seem more logical. But instead WT proclaims believe us, and believe us only even though we won’t believe the present us in the next 30 years. They don’t have to say it, they live it. Is that how the Bible claims Holy Spirit works to teach people. Holy Spirit taught and teaches me, not WT. And it teaches me WT is a fraud. Probably those in charge know it, because only an organization of men work with them. They were never contacted by God or any of his agents invisible to us.

        Here is an illogical WT belief as an example that they’ve held onto. The demons contact and have visible, audible, and physical interactions with people in our day but none of God’s invisible agents do. Does that make sense to you. If you were God would you allow that of your enemies while restricting all of your invisible agents from helping to counter the effect those demons might have? Oh, and in the last days also?

        Here is another rather stupid WT assertions I can’t get over because its so stupid. “God’s spirit bears witness with our spirit” to prove we are his children, but he (God or his spirit never contacts anybody today in doing that). That’s the same as us bearing witness without contacting anybody, in any way. Oh, or is the contact made through WT, who always changes its belief about most things it teaches. The million dollar question is how many teachings did WT ever get right? Whether one believes in God the Bible or not, why could they through reading comprehension figure out what it said. Here’s their comment on that. We took all our beliefs from many other Christian churches, those all understood some points correctly but not all. Well here’s the moronic thinking about that; you, WT admittedly only got and even today get some things right, so what makes you different tan them?

        This is what makes them different and why WY sins when they don’t. Because WT claims it is the only one speaking for God while all the others speak for the Devil. That makes WT God, but it won’t admit it. But it makes WT God in the same sense Jesus was understood by the Jews to claim he was God, because he claimed to be the only way to the Father. The same claim WT makes.

        Don’t want to proof this one buddy…to long for a lazy writer.

      • fallingangel75 says:

        @Ricardo, I am definitely part of the tribe of disillusioned doubters. If not for the support I have received online, I would probably be dead. I’m a strong-willed, independent, thinking person and I’m sure I would never have chosen this religion if I had been introduced to it as an adult.

        I remember thinking that even as a child: that I would never have accepted the canon of beliefs if they were presented to me as an adult who had lived in the world. I would never have dedicated my life to Jehovah – as identified by JWs.

        But, in the twisted way that child indoctrination works, I believed it was loving that I had been born to Witness parents who had seen fit to train me up in the way I should go and inculcate truth in my heart. Otherwise, I would have most certainly died unfaithful at Armageddon.

        Fast-forward some 30-odd years to the time when the overall effects of cognitive dissonance I’d been beating back for years came to a head and coincided with my husband professing to be of the anointed and deciding to partake and I just couldn’t handle it.

        I found myself daily on the brink of committing suicide. I really couldn’t cope – for myriad reasons I won’t go into here. But the only people who do understand the fear and the doubts and the confusion, bitterness, anger, sadness, nostalgia – and the tangle of other emotions you feel as you begin to awaken and try to decide what’s next in your life are the people on sites like this one.

        I embrace the company of disillusioned doubters and I refuse to say they are negative because in point of fact it was all of my JW friends who had bad things to say to me about myself and my husband when I mentioned my struggles.

        No one offered me any support, emotional or otherwise that wasn’t contingent on me swallowing my doubts and ‘returning to Jehovah’ while agreeing to be silent on the matter and my feelings so as not to cause others to doubt and lose faith as well.

        No one that is except for the online friends I made who encouraged me to own those doubts and many who encouraged me to do what I could to preserve my marriage in spite of the incredible strain this entire situation has put on it.

        I’ve gotten so much positive reinforcement and reassurance – directly and just from the comfort that comes from knowing I’m not crazy, I’m not mistaken, and I’m not alone.

        • Ricardo says:

          @fallingangel75,
          I agree. This forum is great, you can find more understanding among most here than you can in the congregation. I enjoy the comments here much more than I enjoy the comments at the meetings. I enjoy what I hear from these ‘negative, disillusioned ones’.

        • Sharon Christensen says:

          Fallingangel75…. I so totally understand your comment! So much like what I go thru…and when I voice my feelings, as per many comments…many say I am crazy for, but thats ok. What I say is for a reason, not just all “hot” air! ;-)). IE sailing my…pontoon boat on Lk Wpg…where zebra mussels are prolific…then going for a dip in the Whackhill pond…man they wreck havoc with turbines and pumps, and are capable of pluggin the fanciest of drainz! ;-). But thanx to freedom as us tribal disillustioned thinkers enjoy…now I can allow myself the luxury of experiencing my agoriaphobia…something that as a JW we were not allowed to entertain cuz armegedon was nigh. Life can be bearable/heck awesome even once we get off The Seaorg! Thanx for your thoughts shared, means a lot! Thanx all.

          • Sharon Christensen says:

            whoops…armageddon spelled wrong…think I would know by now…Warwick pond…and agoraphobia…felt many a time after a hard day at work…same as my Father and brothers….Bush workers, feezing in winter, prickles, heat, bugs, diesel exhaust, summer, on and on…just rush home, eat fast, and off to a meeting an hr away….to be looked down upon, cuz not as stylish etc. as the rest…poor, humble…then back home after a late night, sleep quick and up early, travel again…work fast…wknd comming and service and mtng on…must attend and be there cuz …end here…yeah….still waiting? Autohart…Agoraphobia….Woke up and now … Do not need to go anywheres in regards to Jw.org routine of no sense. Anyone else suffer from a lack of “air supply” when the idea of Jw. org control comes up…that is why I can not even watch their videos…freekin out, can not breathe…and the heebie geebies take over! Or I get mad at the thought of having to give up my freedom to them again…and hence desire to leave butt prints on front dr glass….or zebra mussel up their fancy drain covers…;- )).

    • messenger says:

      Best wishes Whip It.

  29. greytower says:

    Shibboleth, that is not what I am saying. It’s the Governing Body who say that 1975 marked 6,000 years since Adam was created, therefore that meant Jehovah had been resting for 6,000 years. They always claimed the day of rest would last for 7,000 years. Therefore, they said 1975 meant there was about 1,000 years left of Jehovah’s day of rest and they expected the 1,000 year reign of Jesus to take place during that final 1,000 year period.

    In other words, they expected the millennial reign to happen shortly after 1975, saying how fitting it would be for the new world to be established then. And of course, before that could happen, Armageddon would need to have taken place. That is why we were so hyped up – the thousand year reign of Jesus was imminent! 40 years later and the Great Tribulation hasn’t even started.

    Oh, and recently, the Governing Body has changed its previously held view that each creative day lasted for 7,000 years. They are now firmly in the camp of the old earth creationists that each creative day could have lasted for hundreds of thousands of years. But the seventh day of rest is still supposedly only 7,000 years long? They’re making it up as they go along – what they call “increased light” from Jehovah.

    • Shibboleth says:

      Thank you greytower for that clarification. It sounds crazier by the minute!

    • Sarah says:

      The six thousand years of man’s existence is counted from Adam’s creation. The sixth creative day didn’t end then and there’s no exact date given for its end. WT miscalculated. Wishful thinking, I suppose, but you can’t direct millions of people on such flimsy grounds.

  30. Doc Obvious says:

    Lloyd Evans, your “My thoughts on JW Broadcasting 32 – May 2017 (with Geoffrey Jackson)” video inspired me to create an app. I will call the app, “Jehovah”.

    Jehovah app will be able to text prayers and within seconds the app will reply with answer. Just a side point, so please do not tell anyone, the app will return with the reply, “Leave it in my hands”. In this way, I will keep costs way down.

    In addition, the Jehovah app will become whatever the Jehovah app chooses to become. So, when Armageddon comes within an hour, the Jehovah app will have a notification service to alert the loyal ones to get down and pray and seek cover.

    I will also trademark the name, “Jehovah”, and then go after people legally to stop using the name Jehovah unless they pay royalties to me, the software developer.

    The app will be able to talk in multiple languages. It will also make a reply to the Jehovah’s Witnesses condemning them about the huge Child Abuse problem they have and then the Jehovah app will call the local police station to come protect you.

    The Jehovah app will make it easier to return to Jehovah. All the user has to do is return to the phone and click the app named “Jehovah”. Thoughts, Lloyd?

  31. Scot Wm says:

    The Watchtower Corporation continues to falsify its history with a story appearing in the September 2017 Watchtower Study Edition. The article found on page 13, “I Have Been Blessed to Work With Spiritual Men”, details the rich spiritual blessings a man claims he experienced while serving as a Watchtower slave from 1961 to the present day. The author expresses the joys of serving alongside many faithful, anointed ones, particularly Nathan Knorr and Frederick Franz. Somehow, the entire failed 1975 prophesy is overlooked as is the great purge of ‘apostates’ which took place in 1980, forcing Governing Body member Raymond Franz and several other Bethel members to leave the organization.

    Whenever a new Watchtower publication or video appears, the questions that should be asked are, “What do they want?” and “What new lies have they devised to further dupe their cult members?” Last year, the Watchtower Corporation fired 25% of its labor force, which threw many elderly Bethel slaves out on the street. Yet the Governing Body continues to print articles and manufacture cartoons which glorify the joys that a lifetime of Bethel service will provide. Obviously, Watchtower Corporate policy is to dump older Bethel slaves and replace them with young, motivated recruits.

    Watchtower’s fake history lessons will continue to claim that their false prophets, Charles Russell, Joseph Rutherford, Nathan Knorr and Frederick Franz were God’s representatives on earth.

    https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-september-2017/

    • Doc Obvious says:

      I agree. Anyone baptized more than 50 years has been clinging on the values of the previous generations moral teachings. Anyone who has in their family lineage 3 or more generations is not one to look up to for their moral standards.Watchtower wants the 70’s generation of elders to make the rules. Look. Anthony Morris got the “truth” in the 70’s. He, himself, is telling those who been in the truth for a long time that it does not matter. But, the problem is, is that the older generation took care of things. They did not look the other way. They were pro-active. While the current Watchtower generation has been checked out of the domestics lives and are in front of cameras for their Child Sexual Abuse policies. The 21st Century GB is a liability. Not an asset.The constant show of physical things (e.g. Construction, apps, broadcast booth, etc.) and asking for a free labor force shows what is more important to Watchtower. Tossing out the older generation shows a lack of respect and shifts the burden to the local Kingdom Halls. Where people have to care for these people. Watchtower is exhibiting a throw-away society. Something Jesus Christ would never do. Some of the remarks shown on the broadcast by GB or helpers have been very disconcerting. Especially ones made by Anthony Morris III or David Splane. Both of which have massive amounts of blood guilt on their shoulders. Both of these men cause much burden on the publishers.

      • Scot Wm says:

        Doc Obvious said: “Tossing out the older generation shows a lack of respect and shifts the burden to the local Kingdom Halls.” First, Stephen Lett claimed that Watchtower had more money going out than was coming in. Then, Samuel Herd announced that contributions were up by 15% but that 25% of the Bethel slaves would still be laid off in 2016. Finally, the Brooklyn properties were sold for about a billion dollars as the palatial JW dot ORG world headquarters was being built at Warwick. Obviously, the Watchtower Corporation is all about the money.

        Older witnesses, who devoted their lives to being Watchtower slaves, are now receiving their reward for the decades of faithful Watchtower service they provided. They are being abandoned by Watchtower leaders who are openly seeking young ones to replace them. I can’t imagine how painful it must be to discover that you have given everything you have to religious racketeers who have now tossed you out like garbage. Disgusting!

  32. It makes my blood boil, even today when I see anything to do with the JW’s. I was raised within, and left just before I was nearly talked into being a pioneer. My Father who was an elder refused his 40 year superannuation, and died in poverty. As for me, it took me until I was 35 to get out of my head this insidious religion. If only I could sue this religion for the anguish and heartache it has caused. Im now 58, and still today I think of the kids raised in this cult.

  33. Whip It says:

    Ricardo, the other thing that crossed my mind, re: 1975 is that a lot have died & gone, so the next generation, sorry for the PUN, don’t have a clue, i have been missing a few meetings of late & was offered a shep visit on Sunday, let me re phrase that, i was told that i have to have a visit, flatly said no to their face, i will never let an Elder into my home. I can’t get out of that assembly, but looking forward to the banter after wood, we have a few who saw 1975 so it will be interesting, another little bit of info is that our congo’s contribution to the world wide work has been reduced by $150 per month, spent a fair bit of time on youtube while i was away, wow blown away by some new stuff that i found, this evil Org will never die, they will keep getting a younger generation.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It,
      I refuse to believe that an abusive organization can continue indefinitely. How long can the leadership show disrespect to the rank and file until there is some reaction? It is impossible to abuse people and abuse people and abuse people without the abused people leaving, having had enough.

      The younger generation, being born in the truth, do not have the depth of life experience or religious knowledge as those who made the personal decision to come into the org. They are largely untested, and going by the present teaching methods of WT, they are really dumbed down.

      The present caliber of elders is quite pathetic. Can you imagine the quality of the elders’ sons, the born-ins, when they become elders? Is there a term for something that is even more pathetic than pathetic?

      • fallingangel75 says:

        I wish that was true. Why does racism or religious oppression or social inequality of any kind exist and persist? JWs will likely be around for quite some time to come. Especially since they keep reinventing themselves and changing the narrative.

        • Ricardo says:

          @fallingangel75,
          I still cannot agree. There are so many factors facing the witnesses: an abusive organization, the internet, own goals by the GB, slowing down of membership increase, members leaving in increased numbers in many countries (72 out of the 209 countries), a growing number of anointed ones, the new system refusing to come, the pathetic quality of the elders, nepotism and cronyism, loss of cases in law courts with millions of dollars needing to be paid, no cleaning up of the causes of child abuse, less money coming in, the older motivated generation dying off, too many secrets (i.e. UN membership) and growing unrest from members and apostates. The recent WT study articles about getting on with one another and being in subjection to the elders show there are big problems somewhere. An organization cannot have this much baggage associated with it and continue to exist. Surely not.

  34. Sharon Christensen says:

    Thanx all for the tme and energy doing up the interesting posts… so good to know, I am not the only one who feels like flying or like I flew over the cuckoos nest a few times! ;-)). I think we suffer a tad from…false religionitus….But perhaps there was one time they did not prophesie,( wrongly spelled? brain fart) falsely…Younger ones may not remember this…But the little blue bk…seems to me that it was the first little bk…as a kid it caught my attention, size, color…and what it said…YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH…..AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE…..FD for thought. For all the research gone into the info here …thanx…I was one who fired up my old bks at the dump…:-((. Shhh do not tell my Mum! ;-)). Oh yeah, the Bros. told her to do same! For me, it was a part of my life that gave me the hebbey geebies every time I looked at them! When I took them to the dump…I made sure I stuck them under the burning pile…so no other person would find and become enslave to this false religion. More on Scientology tomorrow night….can not wait for the…”Jehovah Witness” show! On Television? Can not wait for TTATT!!! Now going to see if I can watch some utube on apostate channels…or will my signal fuzz up again…only JW.org commin thru…and I will not watch that for …Health(mental) reasons…guess Despicable Me again! ;-). gd nt all

  35. Devin W says:

    I posted on here a while ago. Do you people have any clue what’s really going on? Do you realize the effects on quantitative easing, manipulation of currencies worldwide? . Do you have any clue the world is on the verge of finanancial collapse ! Do you know what’s happening around the world in regards to government turmoil! No, you don’t. Why, because very few people have the understanding of the knowledge that I’ve accumulated over the decades.( Im not talking from the GB). The people I know, don’t even want to read it anymore. I could bury my head in the sand to, but, I choose not to. Your all so obsessed with trying to take down Jehovah’s people, as the world is literally collapsing! If anyone on here has a ounce of intelligence. Try learning what I’m talking about. Believe me. Jehovah’s day is near. There won’t be a next recession . It will be a total collapse of the financial system. Study it.

    • Bad Penny says:

      Devin W – Ooh, what would we do without you, pointing out our mental deficit – ‘because very few people have the understanding of the knowledge that I’ve accumulated over the decades’ … etc.
      We are ‘all so obsessed with trying to take down Jehovah’s people’ ….
      No, we are trying to bring to light the deception of an organisation that has kept innocent people captive to its ideals for over a century. We are helping many to escape.
      The world situation is beyond our control, the ‘powers’ of this world will continue to have their way. We can have very little influence on that. However, we can and are affecting peoples attitudes towards Watchtower. A total collapse of that system would be something to look forward to!

      • Ricardo says:

        @Devin,
        My first question is: Is this financial collapse imminent? Because if it is, we should be safe for the next 50 to 60 years, if we go by WT definition of imminent.

        My second question is: Which will collapse first, the Watchtower organization or the financial system? If Watchtower falls first, then what a waste of time looking for wisdom there.

        • Devin W says:

          First of all the financial collapse is years away. Not decades. 2nd of all, when the organization started, they were right about 1914. They just didn’t have the understanding that it was when satan was thrown out of heaven, beginning the last days. 3rd. The world is such a dire state. Not just economically, but mankind is literally destroying the earth. Your future children and grandchildren would grow up in a polluted,

          • Devin W says:

            Stripped earth. Very little drinking water. This earth with is coorporate greed and corrupt government have decided there fate. Yet, if your so sure Jehovah’s kingdom isn’t coming, why aren’t you out there trying to save this planet for your kids. Oh wait. You don’t have time for that. Your sole purpose is to condem Jehovah’s people. Guess your kids and grandchildren are put on the back burner. So, you can waste your life ” saving everyone” from the most dangerous people on the planet. Open your eyes if you still have them. If anyone on here is thinking of leaving Jehovah’s people. This is your future. Emptiness and anguish.

          • Chiafade says:

            I pity your state of mind Devin. If you think the world is a worse place now then it was a hundred years ago then you’ll be stuck in your delusional state. Just a bit of research will show you that the opposite is true. So here’s a question. Would you rather live in our present day with it’s conveniences and medicine? Or 100 years ago when you had no car and diarrhea could’ve​ been a death sentence for you?

            Do you enjoy traveling? How do you travel? Are you enjoying your communication with people who literally live hundreds if not thousands of miles away from you in an instant over the internet? By the way how are you enjoying the internet compared to the one 100 years ago? Did you know that this is the most peaceful time in history? Certainly more peaceful than a hundred years ago. Don’t take my word for it. And CERTAINLY don’t take the word of those who would use fear mongering to keep you in a state of panic in order to control you. More reading less hysteria.

          • Bad Penny says:

            DEVIN W –
            Financial collapse for our family started when we joined JWs. My husband gave up a lucrative job because he felt it may not be altogether pleasing to Jehovah! We have struggled financially ever since. Trust in Jehovah, he will provide – my a….! After 30 years of heartache, pain and unfulfilled expectations, we finally left the org behind.
            They were not right about 1914 – it marked the beginning of the First World War but has NO relevance to Bible prophecy – their timing from 607 is seriously flawed! Their roots are ominous.
            You need not worry about the ‘world’ situation, you are obviously not in it, protected by your Watchtower walls. So, just leave us ex JWs to lick our wounds and try to survive in the best way we can. Believe me we all hurt real bad over the deception that has ruled our lives. I suggest you do more research on JW.org and its origins. If it is truth, it will surely stand up to scrutiny, what are you afraid of?? You could start at the very beginning by typing Charles Taze Russell into ‘Google’ and see where it leads you… Happy Days!

          • Sharon Christensen says:

            If theres gonna be a financial collapse…what will happen to all the fundz the GB have hidden away and not paid taxes on…why are they hiding their butter bowl? If poof????? Or are they just part chipmunk? Heck if collapse is near…me for one will be out in the street when they empty their trunks! Like kids at a parade…candy? Heck no, I love the feel of MONEY!!!! They want you to think there is going to be a collapse…give to them all now cuz endz here…they will continue to salt it away.. and live in shameless luxury? Pinky rings and all! Hence been watchin “Survivor” Shows…gonna catch me a “weed rat”! Ran out of Bunker videos…Archie and Edith….;-)).

        • HolyConnoli says:

          @Ricardo. Well, Ricardo we have to understand the Greek word for “IMMINENT”. In Original KOINE Greek it meant the one generation of Immineties overlapping with the current generation on Imminanties. Therefore we can see that your generation of imminenties can also until the very oldest one of the original immninenties is gone. I can actually see the WT trying to eplain something like that with the BS they send out when nothing they say come true.

    • outandabout says:

      Devin…the Egyptian, Greek and Roman civilizations all collapsed and what happened afterwards? We survived and we rebuilt. There will be winners and losers, but we will go on for as long as the planet is able to support life. We survived the Ice Age and we’ll survive a warmer world. The Ice Age hasn’t actually ‘ended’. It’s still warming as the Earth continues it’s never ending cycles.
      Ounce of intelligence?… so you are happy with the notion that man and woman were created in the middle east out of a hand full of dirt and a piece of rib rather than accept the hard evidence pointing to Africa as our place of origin.
      Did Jehovah create life on Earth millions of years ago just so that it could die off and turn to oil deep in the ground so that we could drive to the KH and go door to door?
      Did Jehovah create all those crustaceans millions of years ago so that we would have lime to spread on our gardens to grow veges and then thank Him for it?
      Selfish thoughts for selfish people.
      I may not understand quantitative easing, but I know BS when I see it. Quit the hysteria and get a hold of yourself. You’re worrying the children.

      • Devin W says:

        I don’t believe in evolution. Sorry, nothing to debate.

        • Devin W says:

          Hysteria? You don’t understand how the global economy works. How can you even make that statement. Wall street and the wealthy laugh at people like you. They know what’s coming. You think they care when they have all the wealth and work hand in hand with the government’s? As they say. ” What you don’t know can kill you.” Those words are so true considering the % of people who actually understand it and have a clue. Enjoy your time. For it is short. If the tribulation doesn’t come 1st. You’ll be living in a great depression that will make 1930s look like a picnic. But, that’s not important. It’s more important to make as many websites as you can about Jehovah’s witnesses. Who really are the blind ones? The rich are laughing at you.

          • outandabout says:

            Did I mention Evolution? I thought I may have eluded to a fact or two, but, a hand full of dirt and a piece of rib??
            Gee, that sounds feasible, so lets not consider anything else.
            Okay, the economy collapses, money is worthless, and then what? Do we all just lay down and die? Do we all just run around in ever diminishing circles until we disappear up our own butts? As I said, there will be winners and losers, possibly wars, but everything will eventually even out into order again.
            You believe a special event like the GT will come at this time because you are alive at this time and nothing is more special than being alive, so naturally, you’re gagging for all your beliefs to come true before you die. I think you’ll find that everyone who’s made a doomsday prophesy has that prophesy coming true in their lifetime, otherwise, whats the use? This has been going on for two thousand years. You’re betting the lives of seven billion people on your selfish fantasy and when you die, there will be other hysterical people to take your place and those people will just KNOW, they’ll feel it in their bones, that NOW is the time. Meanwhile you would have died, hopefully in your bed surrounded by loved ones, believing that one day your atoms will miraculously reassemble themselves into a perfect body, but you will be scared though because, have you been good enough?

          • Bad Penny says:

            DEVIN –
            Please read my comment above … and then take up your ‘wealthy’ counsel, ‘What you don’t know can kill you.’ Those words are so true … Turn it on it’s head and think of JW.org. …. maybe the GB or the rich, are laughing at you! Sucking up to their whims and wishes as if they are Gods chosen channel! They can, and have, gotten away with murder.

          • Sharon Christensen says:

            The GB are laughing at all who believe their falsehds, keep giving to them, they will butter their bread extra thick…we the ordinary WT hasbins are used to living with tidbits and crumpets cuz we gave all to the Gb so they can live a life of leisure with all the facilities, chrome urninals etc….I can poop over a log…can they?…word of wisdom…baggy pants? watch where you place your feet…tight pants way better for bush survival, but…baggy pants with “deep”pockets do the “job” better! 😉 Let the reader use discernment…..

        • HolyConnoli says:

          @Devin. You say you don’t believe in Evolution so “NOTHING to debate”. Then why are you debating all of these other ideas since it is obvious you don’t believe them also? You are “MASTERDEBATOR” !

  36. GEM says:

    @ Devin: All you need to have said is read the articles in MONEY WHICH. I think you will find many here are more clued up than you seem to imply. You must also appreciate that many also have well founded concerns about how God’s people are being directed today. Doubt has crept in and the sheep are worried.

    Moses may well have had the same despair when he descended from the mountain and found the people worshipping graven images. So, don’t condemn everyone here with a broad brush stroke. There is a wide spectrum of posters with many diverse views.

    It is a place to off load concerns and reason out many issues. I am grateful to Cedars, Covert Fade and JR (and the rest of the team) for such a safe place.

    Back then it was the “Organisation” that turned apostate, not loyal people. How do you answer that dilemma?

    GEM

  37. Christian Freedom says:

    Guys, I need a little help.

    There is this article in Awake! No. 2 2017, page 15. The article is titled, “The Cross”.

    Now, the article in trying to draw support to the claim of Jesus on a stake tries to have secular backing from ‘A critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament’, 11th Edition, by Ethelbert W. Bullinger, pages 818 – 819.

    Now, I wanted to refute the article. The problem is, I cannot find the source. The book, A critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament’, 11th Edition, seems not to exist. The latest I found was the 5th edition and I read someone spoke of the 6th edition. I have even downloaded the 4th and 5th PDF edition of the book.

    Please, can anyone confirm for me, if this book really do have an 11th edition? Because, I suspect it does not.

    • greytower says:

      I went to the official JW web site to open up that 2017 Awake article, but could not find any reference to that quote The only quote I saw was this one: The Greek word stau·rosʹ, according to Crucifixion in Antiquity, means “a pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’” However, I guarantee ‘Crucifixion in Antiquity’ went on to show that a cross-beam was also used in crucifixion. Watch out for the ……. that show where the quote is cut off. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no2-2017-april/the-cross-is-it-biblical/

      I searched several other JW documents on the subject of the cross but nowhere did I see any reference to Bullinger’s Critical Lexicon. However, you might find this link helpful: http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/1torturestake.html

      It shows how the Watchtower Society deliberately altered the original writings of Lipsius to support their own bias.

      As for Bullinger I found a link to the 2014 Reprint of 1914 Sixth Revised Edition (originally published 1877). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._W._Bullinger

      • Chiafade says:

        Watchtower quotes are to be taken lightly. Their propensity to quote mine in their favor is legendary. It’s always funny to see them quote from the scholars of christendom. So they love to use the credentials of noted scholars in their favor but it just so happens that these scholars are wrong about everything else? JW logic or non logic at it’s very best.

      • Christian Freedom says:

        Actually, there is an asterisk in paragraph 1,under the subheadings ‘what the Bible says’. When you click the asterisk, you will see the reference.

        Now, I just want to know if the book exist, I mean the 11edition of the reference book, because I’m thinking it doesn’t and there is no reference to it.

        • Caroline says:

          If you go to Wikipedia under stauros, you will see a link for that quote from “A Critical Lexicon & Condordance to the English & Greek New Testament” that the Society is referring to and if you click see another link in front of Bullinger which is the word hyperdispensationialist and that explains the beliefs of Bullinger and his teachings. The pictures used in that article in Wikipedia are the same pictures that Watchtower has used in it’s old books to make it look like Jesus was killed on a single post but when Thomas was doubtful about Jesus he asked to see the pint of the “nails” in his hands which makes the Bible seem to say that Jesus would have died on a cross.

          The Society deliberately deceives Witnesses in the Reasoning book though when they are quoting from the Imperial Bible Dictionary where that dictionary goes on to say that Jesus would probably have died on a cross which was the means of killing people during Jesus’ time.

          I think they do quote the Lexicon properly though in that article but that doesn’t mean that that one Lexicon is right. The article on Wikipedia indicates that Bullinger is at odds with most scholars and the hyperdispensationialist link explains why.

          • Christian Freedom says:

            Thanks for your response. I know watchtower’s game quite well. I also know of their dishonesty and outright manipulating sources of information.

            I am in Nigeria, I have Google it but can’t find it. All I just need to know is, does the book ‘A critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament’, 11th Edition’ exist?

            Because I don’t think it does. I just want your guys in other parts of the world to find out for me if the 11th edition of this book exist. Because I don’t actually think it does.

          • Caroline says:

            Hi Christian Freedom. You can find that book on Ebay but it’s hard to figure out just which editions they are that are being sold. Can you go to Stauros on Wikipedia? It seems that the author of that book was kind of a crack pot from that article.

  38. Whip It says:

    Deven W, there is plenty of evidence to show the world is on a controlled choice, they are trying to get one world government & currency, the ORG has proved itself wrong so many times its no longer funny, pull your head out of the sand & open your eyes, 607,587, they made 1914 up, they made 1975 up, & now blaming the rank & file, thats shocking, a very smart money making corporation, how much to give at assemblies, its worked out by a quota system, x amount of people times $$$, thats why we start the assemblies in deficit, don’t believe me ask an elder at the next assembly that you want to see the real accounts report, you wont get it & add the new regional assemblies, worse still, Lett on the TV begging for money, “We have more going out than whats comming in”, Child abuse secret payments, that why a lot of us are angree.

  39. Christian Freedom says:

    I’m sorry if this is posted the wrong section. I need assistance to sources of information and possibly legal documents.

    I know that watchtower baptism is purely legalistic, it a verbal contract to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now, I don’t want to invalidate it, since watchtower themselves says it is very rare and they would not even do it. (please see the watchtower of today, Sunday 04/06/2017)

    Now, what I want is something legal, probably court documents showing or implied that the baptism is a verbal contract.

    Because, I know that when I can establish that to be a fact, that baptism is a verbal contract, it becomes easy to annul the verbal contract and if need be, I can actually take them to court to ensure that they accept to annul the baptism.

    Thanks

    • greytower says:

      Dug up some info regarding the changes made to the baptismal questions in June 1985:

      “At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example.

      The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.” (Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30)

      Rather than follow the biblical example of confession in Christ prior to baptism, a Witness must prove they intricately know Watchtower doctrine and law, and then devote themselves to “God’s spirit-directed organization” – the Watchtower Society.

      The reason for the change in the baptismal questions arose because thousands of Witnesses who disassociated themselves from the organisation in the 1980’s (when nothing happened after October 1975) were subsequently disfellowshipped. They no longer believed in the Watchtower doctrines but had done nothing to warrant being disfellowshipped. As a result, many complained or sued the Society with the argument that when they got baptised they had pledged allegiance to Jehovah only, and thus should not have been disfellowshipped for cutting ties with the organisation. So in 1985 the Watchtower Society changed the questions to reflect allegiance to the organisation as well. This gave the organisation more leverage in court, and solidified the argument that when you get baptised you become a member of the organisation – not simply a baptised Christian.

      The society needed to be able to legally make statements like the following when action was taken against them by witnesses who left the organization: (this is from an actual letter, and would be the wording used in many letters) “From the date of your baptism and your joining the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you professed the Christian faith, agreed to adhere to the doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses and agreed to submit to the rules and procedures of the ecclesiastical government of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

      This second baptismal question identifies the baptismal candidate, not as a Christian but as “an associate” of an organization. Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jehovah’s Witnesses are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the organization.

      I found an old document I had with a brilliant link to the history of the baptismal questions and how they have changed. The link also gives the 80 questions that used to be asked – there are now 107. http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/baptism.php

      Hope that helps some.

      • Christian Freedom says:

        Thanks, have gone through them. but it does not really do justice to the issue. The first step is to establish that the baptism questions are legal verbal contract made with the organisation and that is what the organisation use to hold people down.

        What i need is something that can established the baptismal question as a contract. the information in JWfacts.com is not really about it. Thanks any. But i need something more.

  40. MuttsRule says:

    Armageddon will always be 10 – 15 years away. Any shorter period of time, and there may be too many of these embarrassing failed prophecies to explain. Any longer, and Jehovah’s Witnesses would reason they should go to college because they would need skills for a career to support themselves and their families for several decades. And JWs can go to college, but few of them will be JWs by the time they graduate.