Entire set of 2017 “Don’t Give Up” convention outlines leaked online.

In 2016, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society held a series of global conventions that proved to be some of the most controversial in it’s recent history.

Spanning three days, the convention program included talks and instruction videos that placed renewed emphasis on the enforced shunning of “wayward” children, glorification of martyrdom via refusal of medical treatment, and an outrageous paranoia fantasy involving the end of the world and bunkers.

As a result, many have been curious to know if the 2017 convention will prove equally as controversial, or if this year the Watchtower Society will scale back and focus on the less sensationalist and more conventional aspects of its doctrine.

If you’d like a little light reading and want a sneak preview of what Watchtower’s 2017 convention will be bringing to Jehovah’s Witnesses all over the world, you’re in luck. The entire set of convention talk outlines has now been leaked online, courtesy of the website AvoidJW.org. The documents are currently available in English and Spanish, and you can view the entire list of outlines here.

We here at JW Survey are still analysing the contents, but one of the talks has grabbed our attention in a very unfortunate way, and we will be putting an article up shortly to explain in detail why the Saturday talk “Safeguard Your Children From What Is Evil” is something Watchtower should be ashamed of.

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97 Responses to Entire set of 2017 “Don’t Give Up” convention outlines leaked online.

  1. Garret Fader says:

    I’m curious what the videos include in the 3-part “Lot’s Wife” series. She turned to salt for turning around but Lot had sex with his daughters and was blessed. Go figure. (Gen 19:30-36)

    • Garret Fader says:

      Compare also Deut 2:9,19.

    • Its all insanity with absolutely no logical reasoning behind jws beliefs. BEEN THERE! The real Apocalypse is the lifting of the veil of Love and truth and its certainly not there in their KINGDUMB HALLS. This true nature of love is happening and is spreading like wildfire underneath all this religious worldly debris. It is the only answer and its derived out of whats natural, common sense/innate feelings, where there is a leave of absence, a collapse in it today, along with the perishable skill of critical thinking,….I could never accept the Bibical’s, Divine killing laws, which use to be accepted back in Biblical days, yet today jws men cannot be involved in serving their county, fighting in wars, which is acceptable to me, but the one needing a blood transfusion is surrounded by support and constant encouragement from the elders, relatives and friends as jws to die for their religious and stupid beliefs. This is an outright support of one to murder self….. None of it makes any ‘NO’ sense.

      • James says:

        In the context of normal human psychology and how we can behave in groups, it can start to make sense. The behavior and teachings of JWs aren’t excused, but at least we can start to understand. Cult behavior is normal human psychology at work. To combat a disease, a doctor has to first understand its nature. To build a bridge, an engineer has to understand the soil and working conditions.

        I was born in, and have been out just over a year. It seems like an almost impossible barrier to reach a believing a JW. It does seem insane when someone won’t listen to reason, or even consider a different viewpoint without shutting down, not to mention being willing to die for one’s belief (and their own children).

        I think the love you mention can be a key, even the foundation of waking someone up. Also, in the mind of the believer, it does make sense to them, to an extent. Each believing JW may or may not have a way to penetrate their cognitive dissonance. A little research can go a long way in tracing the “logic” behind belief. For for my own sanity and to be in a position to help, it’s useful to try and understand the insanity.

      • Rodger Goode says:

        Kindness is a virtue that we all have been born with, it is a natural way of expressing compassion, support and love for humans, animals and the environment. Conditional love is not instinctive to humans, it has to be taught and repeated enough for it to be accepted as the norm. I agree totally with you Helen, religion has interceded and warped our ability to know and show true love and kindness.
        JW.org is nothing but a US based property and media outfit, lets help our loved ones to see this.
        What struck me the other day is the fact that the GB do not claim to be “inspired” but have to the audacity to hold “judicial committees”, disfellowship or reprove, then only accept that the person is repentant if they return to their global business empire, where is love, kindness, humility and respect in this whole process?

      • The Good Guy says:

        You beamin!!! Jehovah’s Witnesses are good people and you sound like a big dummy head!!!

      • The Good Guy says:

        Jehovah’s Witnesses are good people and you sound like a big dummy head

    • dee2 says:

      Schiller Rick,


      – for his bravery in trying to save his male guests by offering to send his daughters to be gang raped instead,

      – and for having sex with both of his own daughters who subsequently had children by him, with no word of opposition from the Bible,

      was considered favourably by god, and was saved from Sodom’s destruction by God’s angels (Genesis 19). Lot is also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8).

    • Shiam Tyico says:

      Lot had sex with his daughters? lol OR the daughters had sex with LOT?….

      • dee2 says:

        Shiam Tyico,

        According to the Bible story, the reason given by the daughters for their incestuous relationship with their drunken father is that they thought there were no men in the world.

        The daughters could however, not have believed that there were no men in the world. They had just come from Tzo’ar where there would have been plenty of men. Abraham, their great-uncle and company were situated about a day’s walk away.

        Also the chances of two conceptions by two women on successive nights is very slim so some have concluded that it’s much more likely that these pregnancies were the result of repeated incestuous activity.

        These considerations have raised questions about who the actual incest perpetrator was – was Lot the perpetrator and his daughters the victims?

        What is also disturbing about the story is that there is no objection from the Bible regarding Lot’s daughters incestuous relationship with their drunken father by whom they became pregnant.

  2. johnredwood1 says:

    Upgrades in progress – this is a test message

    • messenger says:

      John only on this site do I get security messages sometimes, and then my computer freezes up. I’ve attempted to copy the pop-up messages but my computer won’t let me. I’ll write down the words next time I see it and send those to you. It says something about the name on your certificate.

  3. Chiafade says:

    I look forward to the analysis of that Saturday talk. Watchtower is absolutely shameless. How dare they talk about safeguarding children when they have such monstrous irresponsible policies in place that do anything but protect children?!

    Nowhere in that talk does it mention or encourage going to the police or child protective services right away. That should be step ONE.

    • Will says:

      Clearly this is WT’s way of saying they’re educating their people, but not addressing WT’s problems. On the surface, it seems commendable, but it doesn’t address the entire issue. They are still not taking responsibility for their errors or correcting them.

    • Darlene Alexander says:

      I so agree! And did you notice that they put 99% of the responsibility for preventing child abuse on the child and the other 1% was a veiled request from the GB to keep your kids off the school bus, out of a public pool, etc.? Yes, parents need to be aware and train their kids, but as a person who was a JW for over 40 years, I KNOW how parents are going to take their “advice,” JWs will now become more paranoid than ever!

  4. Caroline says:

    Thank you Covert for this article and posting the leaked talks. I am looking forward to your article on the one about safeguarding children from sexual abuse. I looked at the outline and I noticed it doesn’t say a word about how that abuse can come from those in the Kingdom Hall. Disgusting!!!

  5. Jado says:

    This is a “psychological terrorist organisation”!

    *** yb74 p. 178 Part 2—Germany ***
    Sister Dietrichkeit remembers two sisters who signed the declaration. When they returned they told Sister Dietrichkeit they had signed because they were afraid they were going to starve to death. They did not hide the fact that the SS had asked them: “Now that you have denied your God, Jehovah, what God will you serve?” The two sisters were soon released, but when the Russians invaded the country both were rearrested for some reason or another and taken to prison by the Russians where they actually did starve to death. In another case a sister who signed was raped by the Russians during the last few days of the war and then murdered by them.

    That’s a terrorist writing: http://www.nationalvanguard.org/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/1785/Raped%20German%20Women.jpg

    It is indirectly telling women what they will have to suffer if they leave “Jehovah”! True, that what they do!!

    • I agree, but it does also say that bad people on both sides (world or JWs) can do this whether you sign or not. People force you in fear of death or starving and then kill or starve you anyways. All this says is that they signed to save themselves and didnt save themselves. However, this is also true at a Hall with JWs who coerce you, make you sign, make you lie, and then they still do not defend you, still give you up because they claim they decide who is still JW and who is not, and like those who worshipped king Saul as Jehovah were agreeing that David was the dsifellowshipped one. Stay with Hall decisions by not signing and you also have demons in the Hall who do the same thing, make you sign and then take over. Kill you anyways. Staing with brother JWs does not stop them from raping you too. It is like a factory UNION where whether you sign corporate or sign union, both sides have potential to rape you. No-win, rock and hard place. Lose both ways. Union rape you like Corp. and WT rape you like politics (German or Russian or USA) The article merely says you can sign saying do this or we kill you (and they kill you after you sign) or not sign not, be killed, sign and thus go free but be killed later. Judgement comes for all who awaken on earth in flesh and know what killed them. If they wake up seeing that Germans set them free but Russians saw German signature and killed them. It merely shows you can be killed either way, and that was it worth tainting your soul’s conscience. The fact is upon awakening can you say i am glad that i died not giving into manipulation. SO it is very applicable if you die from a Hall who kills you and you see that obeying liars brought your death. Do you not think the whole Hall who obeyed elders and died in the volcanic mudslide will learn that dying by obeying the worship of elders is what Jehovah wanted to survive and live? No it proves that elder worship and elder obedience is NOT worshipping Jehovah or they would have lived. You do not say of the Flood, they are all in heaven now. Nor do you say to Sodom or Lot’s wife that they and she are in heaven now. So too if you die in a Hall where the elders all set the bomb, it is not a mere shame, but a disgust to and of elder obedience, elder-worship. If the GB advocates this, then behold the whole GB will this year be replaced without killing nor ending Jehovah’s kingdom.

      • Jado says:

        Well said. But they implied that the German sisters were raped and Killed by Russians because they happened to be Apostate. In Malawi, BLACK women chose to be raped instead of leaving Jehovah. Being Faithful to Jehovah seems to be a sword which is to pierce women’s heart as in the case of the Mother of Jesus, “a god” according to WTS.

  6. whyamistillhere? says:

    I can’t believe poor Sergey is being dragged up again! That’s if it’s the same poor man that had a miserable life in the “truth” in last years video. Yeh, best life ever!!

  7. I’ve read through all of the outlines (which aren’t outlines so much as scripts), and they’re ALL horrifying. From a simplistic view of depression that defies all reason, to the frequently critiqued (here, anyway) absurdity of covering protection of children from all forms of abuse in 14 minutes (and, in the process, placing ALL responsibility for such protection on the parents while the WBTS assumes none), I’m most fascinated by the talk that admonishes followers to be like Jephthah’s daughter. Frankly, I don’t know what to make of the fact that the talk completely glosses over (and I’m guessing here, but probably deliberately so) the fact that poor woman was the victim of human sacrifice–one approved and accepted by God. Of course, given the cherry-picking strategy the WBTS usually adopts when quoting the Bible (Bible study my sweet patoot,) most JWs probably aren’t aware of the horrors inherent in that story, much less the story of Abraham and Issac.

  8. ScotWm says:

    From the introduction to Saturday’s symposium on House Building: “In the majority of cases of child sexual abuse, the perpetrator was someone the child knew and trusted.” These prophetic words introduce the talk, Safeguard Your Children From “What Is Evil.” Perhaps the acompanying video will feature Candace Conti’s JW pedophile molester, Jonathan Kendrick.

    When Kendrick was attending the Fremont, CA Kingdom Hall, he committed Lewd Or Lascivious Acts With A Child Under 14 Years Of Age and then moved on to molest young Sister Conti, with the blessings of the Fremont elders. Later, the Fremont congregation sent Kendrick to the Brentwood, CA congregation with a letter of introduction which said, “He’s good with kids.”

    After arriving in Brentwood, Kendrick married a widowed sister and proceeded to sexually abuse her granddaughter. For this “sin” Kendrick went to jail, convicted of Sexual Battery Involving A Restrained Person. When Candace Conti heard about Kendrick’s latest sexual escapade with a pubescent girl, she filed her lawsuit against Watchtower.

    In the meantime, Kendrick is out of jail and remains a JW in good standing in the Brentwood congregation. Watch out you “young ones”, this monster might be sitting next to you in the convention audience. http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/kendrick-cornered-by-reporter-as-abc-news-shines-spotlight-on-watchtowers-child-abuse-record/comment-page-1

  9. Edo says:

    I apologise, I’m out of subject here.
    My dad, a jw in his 70s, is in er with a blood loss in his stomach caused by a polyp (they don’t know yet if benign or malign). Since yesterday his blood levels dropped from 10 to 9. In some hospitals they start transfusions at 8 I believe.
    All my family is a jw. I faded. Is there anything I could do legally if the situation worsen and there’s the need of a transfusion? I searched the web but couldn’t find successful outcomes a part from minors but not with adults when considered sane of mind and not coerced.
    Also, are there more substitutes accepted now that may decrease the need of blood in more cases?

    Thank you all for your help

    • ready_4_to_fade says:

      There is a newer medication called K-centra. It is pooled clotting factors taken from plasma, but not plasma itself. It should be acceptable. Other means of stopping upper GI bleeds are octreotide or protonix infusions. Or endoscopic banding and sclerotherapy, although it sounds like he’s already been scoped if they know it’s a polyp.

      Legally you’re probably screwed, there’s nothing to be done short of a death-bed reversal on your father’s part. If somehow he were to fill out a new healthcare proxy while in the hospital and name you as his agent, once he was delerious it would be up to you (depending on state laws) whether to give blood or not. Some states honor written directives over family, and others give more power to the family.

      Good luck

      • Edo says:

        THank you ready4tofade,
        Useful and detailed information!
        He’s still bleeding despite the meds so they can’t perform a biopsy yet to see what exactly is as they don’t want to risk excessive bleeding with their hands bounded since he claimed not to want blood. I don’t think he’ll nominate me as a tutor. My sister is a jw and a nurse, so if that will be the case I guess it’ll be her. Also I don’t live in the same country anymore and even if I can go back with the first flight available I doubt they’ll include me in this decision as it’s a no brainer for them.
        I think anybody has the right to make their own choices, even more so in matters of their life of death. However I cannot call his decision a free and informed choice made with his full awareness but it’s coercitive. Hard to prove because In all other aspects of life they can be responsible and informed people a part what their religion dictates.

      • Edo says:

        He’s already having clotting meds in IV to stop the bleeding, not sure about the technical names though. Unfortunately in some cases the only alternative is blood and artificial blood is not yet an option. That’s what I’m most concerned about. Personally if I were a doctor I don’t think I would perform surgery if my hands were tied and couldn’t use blood in case of emergency when you know you could have saved a life, that’s what doctors should be doctors for. It’s a hard decision to accept for doctors too I think.

  10. ScotWm says:

    Watchtower executives have taken child baptism a step forward with a new music video: Make the Truth Your Own. Apparently, the best way to protect children is to get them baptized before they start school. This 3 minute video shows 3 very young children getting baptized. https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/LatestVideos/pub-pksjj_56_VIDEO

  11. Caroline says:

    Schiller Rick, you really should learn how to write if you want anybody to understand anything you are trying to get at. It’s almost like your comments are not to be taken seriously at all.

  12. The song sung is already very old by all JWs

    • Caroline says:

      Rick, when I click on your name, it brings me to your Facebook page and I see you are from Kenosha, Wi. My son goes to the Kingdom Hall there in Kenosha.

      I am very interested in your story but I am finding it difficult to follow along with your story. Can you slow down and explain it better with breaks in the paragraphs and periods etc. ?

      Now that I know you are talking about the Kingdom Hall where my son goes, that makes me even more interested in what is going on in that Kingdom Hall.

      I didn’t mean to be critical of your comments. I am just saying that it’s easier to read them if there’s more breaks and paragraphs.

  13. John Miguel says:

    Thank you all for your intelligent viewpoint! The Governing Body of Jws thinks that we are dumb like them!

  14. This is why Russia banned them.

  15. Sharon Christensen says:

    Allz I can say…this summer assemble…I am going dress as Katy Perry, when she came to the “Met” gala…or as …”.Ethel”..,, from th song…The Streek! Anyone want to join me in mking a…statement in absurdity? ;). Some of if not most of my…”haters” will be…Whaaaaa!

  16. Sharon Christensen says:

    Excuse the spelling/sentence structure of my comments…;). Soon I shall have to join “Twisted Sis” and the” Greek Squad “at Best Buy…my ol ipad does not follow directions…English/Ukrainia/Austria…Ojibway…basically all Gypsy! Can you blame it..;). Oh yes…I am a twisted sister…jus ask my dear bro! He still wunderz! :). Good comments all…for sure…I could not for the life of me figure out why God turned Lots wife into “salt block”… when he could molest his daughters…ah leh…poink! Hello?????? That was ok? As for Rick…have we bin in same cong.?

  17. Twistedsister69 says:

    Hey Sharon! Speak of the Devil, and here I am! 😀 😀 😀 What a co-in-ki-dink. (Had to use hyphens – Auto Correct wouldn’t let me do it in 1 word.) Well, I may not be THE Devil, but I sure am A Devil. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha … & so on.
    Thanx 4 the info, CF. I guess those JWs are in for another flaming dumpster-load of toxic brain-melting “education”.
    “Return to Jehovah”??? HELL NO – More like, RUN LIKE HELL FROM “JEHOVAH” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  18. Twistedsister69 says:

    By the way folks, May the Fourth be with you.

  19. Sharon Christensen says:

    Edo..EPO to builds ones blood up I believe, but here in Canada, very expensive ….It seems to work at making ones blood stronger and Wt ok with use of…

  20. Sharon Christensen says:

    Moose hunt “dead” give away…Never doubt a ” Twisted sis’ ” love for her family, apostale and all….!!!! Good grief! …think twice before ” barbeque” with weenches…esp. Twisted Sisters! Geez…Good job! Survived the initiation! Next moose hunt will not be soooo traumatic! Hehheheh….I like the brave folk who have survived…Jw .org ways and live to talk about. Tonight as I say my prayer…I will ask Jehovah to keep a “special eye” on those who are Dear to me…I am almost sixty…I fear not Jehovah…no…But Look out if Mammy starts a Hollerin cuz I tackled her butter! Ok enough nonsense…I got to go rattle my change! ;)- and decide which assembly to….Rain Barrel! ??? :-))

  21. Jado says:

    *** w88 9/15 p. 13 par. 14 Listen—Jehovah’s Watchman Speaks! ***
    during the imminent desecration of things Christendom holds sacred, she will not be able to bribe her way out of the execution of divine judgment upon her. It will then be too late to listen to Jehovah’s “watchman.”—Ezekiel 7:20-27.

    If “Christendom” operates from your country, if other Gods besides Jehovah are worshiped in your country, be ready to watch helplessly your family torn apart. The day of vengeance we used to sing in the Kingdom Halls is nearer than we may think.

  22. Caroline says:

    On Friday’s afternoon talks, there’s a symposium called “Enduring Despite…and the 5th talk is “Focus on Realistic Expectations and one of the points is called “Learn from Mephibosheth’s realistic and positive attitude” and it says “A grandson of King Saul, Mephibosheth experienced an accident that left him crippled for life (2 Sam. 4:4).

    This part is true that Mephibosheth was crippled when he was five when his nurse tripped and fell and caused him to be crippled but if you read in 2 Samuel 21:7-9, David hung Mephibosheth and 6 others because there was a famine and he wanted to appease his God Jehovah so he went to the Gibeonites and they wanted retribution from David because Saul had broken his agreement with the Gibeonites and struck them down and so David took Jonathan’s son Mephibosheth and hung him and left his body to rot on the mountain and it was the first day of the barley harvest.

    Really, do those people who write those talks, even read their Bibles????

  23. Caroline says:

    I would like to add to my last comment about David hanging Mephibosheth to appease his God Jehovah. According to the Insight book #2 page 424 under Moloch, it says that Moloch is possibly the same as Milcom and this is what 2 Samuel 12:30 says in the New World Translation about David:

    : “Then he (David) took the crown of Malcam from it’s head. The weight of it was a talent of gold, along with precious stones, and it was placed on David’s head. He also took a vast amount of spoil from the city.”

    This is what 1 Chronicles 20:2 says about David: “Then David took the crown of Malcam from its head, and found that it weighed a talent of gold, and in it there were precious stones; and it was placed on David’s head. He also took a vast amount of spoil from the city.”

    Why would David kill Mephibosheth and hang him along with 6 other men to end a famine? Was David a worshipper of a God who demanded and accepted human sacrifices to end famines along with all the other kings of Israel who killed their sons in the fire to Molech to end famines and win wars?

    Was David’s god Molech or Jehovah?

  24. Caroline says:

    I would like to add to my last comment about David and Mephibosheth.

    David’s son Solomon built alters to Molech. (1 Kings 11:7)

    Under the topic of Ammonites on page 94 of the Insight book #1 it talks about David’s putting the crown of Milcam on his head but according to Watchtower, David plopped it on his head and quickly took it of

    What is especially interesting is that on that same page (94) of the Insight book #1 under Ammonites, where it’s talking about David’s putting the crown of Malcam on his head, it’s saying that it couldn’t have been a human king because the crown weighed so much so it had to be a false god( in their own words)

  25. Aaron says:

    Means and spiteful to leaked and have these available on the net.

    • Ricardo says:

      There is nothing our organization likes more than secrets. The compensation payments made to Condace Conti and ‘Amelia’? SECRET. Being an NGO associated with the UN for 10 years? SECRET.

      Don’t you think our organization is being mean and spiteful by keeping these things secret?

      Well, all things secret will eventually be exposed, and my oh my wasn’t the Australian Royal Commission embarrassing?

      I think the more things that can be exposed in our organization rather than kept secret, the better.

      • outandabout says:

        That’s right, Ricardo. Leaked??? God’s word?? How can Truth and spiritual food possibly be ‘leaked’ when it’s already been out for 2000 yrs and freely available. Everything we need to know is already in the Bile, apparently, unless of course, WT is trying to add or subtract from the Truth. I thought Gods Word and Truth belonged to Man and not for incremental release by the WT whenever they see fit. Gosh, they must see themselves as God, then.
        There’s absolutely nothing mean spirited or spiteful about releasing spiritual food and guidance at any time whatsoever but it’s totally dishonest to hold it back to be used strategically for control and manipulation.

  26. Whip It says:

    Sorry everyone, i have been unable to post for some time, thanks its now fixed, so missed a bit, i am a bit sad to see the convention stuff leaked because now i really don’t want to go, but alas have no choice due to family & friend pressure, The talk on safe guarding children is terrible, yes as a parent we were always mindful to protect them as best we could and monitor what they where, but yes to blame a victim for Rape is absurd, & these idiots who call themselves elders will do that, Love the comments about Lot, the more i read of those the more i smell crap, so alas, my plight is to attend, oh yes forgot, how can you blame a innocent child that is the victim of a Preditor, absurd.

    • Ricardo says:

      Welcome back, Whip It. You have been conspicuous by your absence. But then something did go wrong with the reply system. I hope it keeps the Illuminati out now.

      Did you like Sunday’s magazine study about having respect for the elders and for their hard work? I couldn’t attend that study, I would have been vomiting blood during the meeting hearing that BS. But a fellow victim went (I told him not to) and caused some commotion in the hall, calling a certain brother who gave an answer about hardworking elders a hypocrite quite loudly and then arguing with that brother quite loudly after the meeting in the kingdom hall. Obviously evidence of the holy spirit.

  27. Whip It says:

    Ricardo, no missed it, i was in the big smoke, so lucky me, they always bring the same article out every 6 months or so, yes sickening, same at assemblies, i read your story on another post, very sad, i have never seen it as bad as that, despite what i have endured & to make matters worse our Christian Brother Quest had to put the boot in, great display of Love, i bet he is an Elder, you can tell, keep posting Your Brother

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It,
      Thanks for your fellow feeling. Why is it we cannot get sympathy from our typical brothers and sisters? Why are they so scared of facing reality? Is their positiveness really that much of a veneer that it can’t stand hearing what happens to the victims, what may sound negative? We can see that Brother Quest quickly buggered off when he was faced with the reality of the org.

      Just like that nutbag CO. Paint the organization as pearly white and innocent. We must cover over the festering ulcer with cosmetics, and if we don’t, if we are so bold to talk about the org as it really is, we are being bitter. Does this make sense? What is wrong with our org? Why can’t members show sympathy and empathy for victims? Why must we support the GB no matter what?

      The org must fall, for the plain reason that its members have closed their minds to reality. Living in La-La land while around us rises more and more proof of wrongdoing, does not sound like a successful way to run an organization. And it can only become worse while the org chooses to do nothing.

  28. Sharon Christensen says:

    Every so often …I need a break from thinkin about JWorgy ways! Makes me sooo mad! Deep breathes (huffin and puffin)…goat yoga….and trail rides on horse back….does seem to help… but adrenals do need a break from this Jworgy insanity,..I feel for you Schiller Rick…Your Mom sounds like my Mom…I feel for my bros and friends who must put up with this …drives one near to” over the hedge at times!”. …In for another flamin dumpster load of toxic waste….Education?…More than one “twisted sis” will be there….;). Give me a mouse hunt…;) any day! Thanx Caroline for the info as to ….good grief, I never knew….sickens me! If this is What God is like…pardon me but…I am gonna protest….I gave up being a peaceful activist….I have chewed out quite a few who look down at me … Hiding behind their fake Grey Bibles….I wondered why the tune…”Pineapple apple Pen “was such a source of irritation to them… ;). Just yesterday my daughter showed me Michaels Thriller vedo…oh I get it…I never clued in to the Apostale video about before…duh…Funny what you can get away with …if you have a bit of “change” to rattle! For now…Sunz 2 hot…Skys 2 Blew…Beerz 2 Kold, 2 b thinkin bout you ( JWORGY )… Save it 4 a reiny dey! ;). Gd nt…keep the illuminati” off…thanx to all weeki leakers…we need you!

  29. Freedom says:

    The “Don’t Give up” convention as we all know it, is asking all JW members not to give on the GB and their way of controlling and dictating.

  30. Caroline says:

    I would like to add to my comments about Mephibosheth from above. I have been researching Saul and Jonathan and I found some more information about Mephibosheth in the Insight book #2 on page 379 under the topic of Merib-baal:

    (Meribbaal) [possibly, Contender Against Baal; or, Baal Makes a Legal Defense]. Grandson of King Saul, son of Jonathan and father of Micah. (1 Ch. 8:33,34) This is apparently another name for Mephibosheth.

    It is interesting that possibly Jonathan’s son’s other name was Meribbaal which incorporates the name of Baal in it.

    This is quoting from the Insight book #1 under the topic of Baal on page 229:

    “Undoubtedly each Canaanite city built it’s Baal sanctuary in honor of it’s local patron Baal. Priests were appointed to conduct the worship at these sanctuaries and the many shrines on neighboring hilltops known as high places. (Compare 2 Kings 17:32.) Inside the shrines there may have been images or representations of Baal, whereas near the altars outside were to be found stone pillars (likely phallic symbols of Baal), sacred poles representing the goddess Asherah, and incense stands). (Compare 2 Ch. 34:4-7; see Sacred Pole.) Male and female prostitutes served at the high places and besides ceremonial prostitution, even child sacrifice was practiced. (Compare 1 Ki. 14:23,24; Ho. 4:13, 14; Isa 57:5; Jer 7:31; 19:5)….”It is therefor, noteworthy that the Bible makes several references to the heavenly bodies in connection with Baal worship. Describing the wayward course of the kingdom of Israel, the Scriptural record states: “They kept leaving all the commandments of Jehovah…, and they began to bow down to all the army of the heavens and to serve Baal.”

    My words: Compare Acts 7:42,43 in N.W.T. “So God turned and handed them over to render sacred service to the army of heaven, just as it is written in the book of the prophets, ‘It was not to me that you offered victims and sacrifices for forty years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel? But it was the tent of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan that you took up, the figures which you made to worship them. Consequently I will deport you beyond Babylon.”

    Also, when David was facing a famine and he went to Jehovah and Jehovah told him to go to the Gibeonites and the Gibeonites said they wanted to “expose” the sons of Saul, why did David kill those sons of Saul on the mountain? Was it a “high place”?

    Baal worship is associated with child sacrifice and false Canaanite god worship. It’s right in Watchtower literature, so why would Jonathan name his son after the false Canaanite god who is associated with child sacrifice unless the god of the Israelites was that Canaanite god and why did David kill 7 of Sauls’s sons because there was a famine and why on a high place?

    Was it the angel named Jehovah who appeared to Moses in the burning bush or was it Jehovah’s voice spoken through an angel that Moses heard that day? When Stephen said that the Israelites were rendering worship to the army of heaven and offering up sacrifices to Moloch, was he referring to the god of the Israelites, Jehovah or Moloch? Why did Jesus say that the Jews were from their father the devil and that he was a liar from the beginning? Why isn’t the Tetragrammaton in the Greek Scriptures even one time, for the name of the most high god? Why did the Watchtower put that name in the New Testament for the name of Jesus’ god and father when it is not found in even one early manuscript? Why didn’t Jesus use that name for his god and father even one time?

  31. Caroline says:

    It is so important to know what Jesus was talking about when he said that the Jews were worshipping their father the devil because if he was referring to their God Jehovah, then Jehovah’s Witnesses are worshipping the devil and not knowing it, aren’t they?

  32. Sharon Christensen says:

    No wonder Bro. Nathaniel…although raised as a Jew…left them and become Orthodox…has quite the hatred for them and their ways…His Mammy…took him to see many a Rabbi when he started to wake up…sound familiar? ;). Thanx for doing all this research…I hate Jw.orgy sooo much…I fired into my wood stove most of their bks that I took along with me whenst I left…Go figure…and I absolutely refuse to use the “Pineapple apple pen “…fake leather one they now refer to. Has there been fuzzin of signal on previous JW Survey? I do not think it is just my old Ipad…Bro. Nathaniel and Mr. Bean…Oscars Oasis…Primitive tech…Benny Hin/ Hill …etc….vedos come thru just fine…Any Hoo…JW.orgy= Jewish…No wunder could Shoomzzel Donald, but Not Mr. Putin! I totally liked how Mr. Cedars used his reasoning as to…why not too ban…Hello? ;). Good job! No worries as to fuzzies…if they fuzz…well…Right back at them…More than one way to fuzzal their signal…Keep up the …”Pokin”….Puzzling…Hallelujah…By Leonard Cohen…Sung by…John Kale..Used on Shrek Movie…? Ps ..My JW husband…first…= Farquar! Ok got to …”bugger off”! 😉

  33. Caroline says:

    Just a little more about what kind of person David was, we should read 2nd Samuel 20:3:

    Eventually David came to his house at Jerusalem. Then the king took the ten women, the concubines whom he had left behind to take care of the house, and put them in a house of confinement, but he kept on supplying food to them. And with them he did not have any relations, but they continued shut up closely until the day of their dying, in a widowhood with a living husband.”

    David had many wives and concubines and is the one who took another man’s wife and then had that man killed so it wouldn’t be found out that he committed adultery with her and because of David’s sin, an innocent baby was killed by Jehovah’s hand and because of David, 70,000 innocent Israelites died because David took a census and rather than face the consequences of what he had done, he chose for all those 70,000 innocent Israelites to die at Jehovah’s hand by a famine and yet the the Watchtower Insight book under the topic of David on page 590 says about David:

    “But for all his faults and gross sins, David always showed the right heart condition by repenting and begging Jehovah’s forgiveness. This was demonstrated in the affair involving Bathsheba, after which David wrote Psalm 51, stating “With error I was brought forth…in sin my mother conceived me.”(Ps 51:5). Another instance when David humbly confessed his sins was when Satan incited him to take a census of the men qualified for the military forces.- 2 Samuel 24:1-17; 1 Ch. 21:1-17; 27:24; see Registration.”

    Evidently, all David had to do was to say that he was conceived in sin by his mother and to the Society that shows how humble he was and what a great guy in “begging for forgiveness” but if you read 2 Samuel 24:14 this is what David said when he knew that he was facing punishment for taking the census:

    “So David said to Gad: “It is very distressing to me. Let us fall, please, into the hand of Jehovah, for many are his mercies, but into the hand of man do not let me fall.”

    That Scripture tells me that he was a coward and not begging for forgiveness like the Insight books says about David. Where in any Scripture do we see David ever “begging” for forgiveness?

    Also, what is interesting is that the Society has us look up those accounts about the census from 2 Samuel 24:1-17 and 1 Ch. 21:1-17 but if you compare those two accounts from both the King James and the New World Translation, the New World translation says at 2 Samuel 24:1 that it was “one” who caused David to take the census but the King James says it was Jehovah who incited David to take the census at 2 Samuel 24:1 but both the King James and the New World Translation at 1 Ch. 21 says it was Satan who incited David to take the census.

    So, who was it that incited David to take the census, Jehovah or Satan or is Satan Jehovah?

    Why did the Society put the word “one” in 2 Samuel 24:1 instead of Jehovah? Maybe it is so that when Witnesses read their Bibles, they don’t really get what a horrible person David really was.

  34. Whip It says:

    You know i don’t really care anymore & even question the existence of a God as we are lead to believe, yes we were designed by intelligence i get that, & we apparently have a fault that leads all of us to Death, as the Pearl Jam song says, “The in-between is Mine”.So tired of the control by the ORG, but keep the posts coming, i love all of it.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It,
      You sound quite exasperated. I feel sad when I see those who have woken up to the nonsense of the org start to question the existence of God. It shows me how much damage the org is doing. Just because the org is wrong doesn’t mean God is wrong. There is a difference between being a Christian and being a witness. The Christian qualities are good and worth living by. The witness principles are a warped variety of Christianity.

      I fear you are growing fatigued. You need a group at the coffee shop to talk to. Is there anybody else in your cong who is a victim or has awakened who you can enjoy the company of?

      • Caroline says:

        Ricardo, you really don’t get it. Losing faith in God, is not the same as losing faith in Jesus. You are defending the god of the Hebrew Scriptures as that God being the creator and can you think of even one commandment from Jehovah that we need to follow and why?

        Please defend “God” Jehovah from the Hebrew Scriptures before feeling so sad for us that don’t follow the god of the Hebrew Scriptures.

        • Ricardo says:

          That was an unusual response to my comment. Read over it. You can see you have stretched things a bit, but my reaction is the same to your challenge: what a pity that those who wake up to WT often have their belief in God wiped out as well. It is as if the victims have questioned everything that WT teaches, even to doubting that there is a God.

          And why not, I guess. As witnesses we are taught that God is involved in everything happening with the witnesses, so if the org is wrong, then what is God up to? It all seems very confusing at the moment, whether you believe God is directing the org or not.

          I don’t believe I’m the one to get frustrated with. I believe my point is valid.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, have you read any of my comments? How in the world would you get the idea that I might think that God (Jehovah) was directing the Organization?

            Again, I ask you. Can you think of even one commandment of the God (Jehovah) of the Hebrew Scriptures that you would follow? That is the God you keep referring to that you worship. You are not talking about Jesus and being a Christian. You are talking about Jehovah, the god of the Hebrew Scriptures, the god that Rutherford decided to name his religion after.

            You are confusing the belief in God and following God as the god of the Greek Scriptures. Most people consider themselves “Christians” which means they follow the examples of Jesus and Paul. People don’t read the Hebrew Scriptures, but if they did, they would prefer to worship the god of the Greek Scriptures, not the god of the Hebrew Scriptures. Witnesses don’t have any excuses though because they are supposed to read the Hebrew Scriptures. I know that because I also went to the Ministry school too for many, many years.

            I don’t know how we got here and I don’t believe that we all got here by a one-celled ameba either but I have a hard time believing that there is an invisible God who created everything on the earth and in the heavens either and watches everything I do and what everybody else does in the world at all times and is especially interested in what people do naked. I can’t picture that. Can you? That is not to say that I don’t believe in a God.

            We are all atheists because everybody who believes in just one god, can’t believe in everybody else’s gods.

            It is arrogant to think that our god is answering our prayers while letting so many people suffer who are also praying to their gods and maybe even the god of the Bible.

          • o says:

            You’re onto it, Caroline. You’re seeing through the fog. For myself, and I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, I think the bible is the biggest hoax ever hoisted onto mankind and we’re slowly and reluctantly waking up to that. The god portrayed in the bible is a monster and where we came from, who cares? What we do in the here and now is what counts and if something else awaits, lets just wait and see but lets not waste our lives on mans ancient attempt to answer it all. The bibles ‘answer’ just does not work unless one is happy with driving square pegs into round holes and calling it truth.

          • Ricardo says:

            There is much that you said which is worth pondering on. The point about who would people prefer to worship- the God of the Greek scriptures as explained by Jesus with Paul’s additions, or the God of the Hebrews- is a good one. I don’t have any wisdom to share on that one. Maybe one day a spirit being can explain to us why there is such a difference in perception.

            And which command of Jehovah am I following?I guess I would refer back to the Live Forever book, on the chapter about the Sabbath, which showed that most of the ten commandments were repeated for Christians to obey by Jesus and Paul. So, I am following Jehovah’s commands in the ten commandments (except the Sabbath command) and the commandments Jesus said were most important: to love God and love your neighbour.

            I think that believing in a Creator is important, as we have an inbuilt desire to thank someone for our life.

            The commentor called ‘O’ is another example of someone who has lost faith in God and the Bible. Which is the point I was making, which you keep on ignoring. I was not making a point that you currently thought Jehovah is directing the organization, in fact I did not even say that. I am sure that at one time, the time when you were a witness, you did think that Jehovah was directing the org. And that is my point. That for many people, when they start waking up that the org teaches nonsense, tend to reject not just the org but the Bible as well as God. That the org has had that effect saddens me.

            Personally, I think the Bible teaches good values, and the knowledge that there is a Creator who will fix things up and save humanity is very comforting. Being a witness is not comforting, but the Bible’s hope is. Being a Christian is comforting. For me, anyway.

        • messenger says:

          @ Caroline

          The god of the Hebrew scrips and the god of the Greek scrips is the exact same being. That is understood and accepted by every Christian in the world. People who do not understand and accept that are not Christians. Just because some respect Christ’s teachings and profess to follow some of those does not make those folks Christians. Christ directed his followers to his father, who is the god of the Hebrew scips. Jesus was not quoting Hebrew scrips for no purpose. I’m not going to quote a bunch of scrips to make points that should be easily seen by people God’s spirit allows to understand. But here is just one to prove your reasoning erroneous. Christ said, “Just as the days of Noah were so the return of the Son of man will be.” Well Caroline, why would Christ refer to that. Not just because people did not listen and follow God, but because they were killed for not doing so.

          And a lot of people do read the Hebrew scrips and understand those. Just because you were taught JWs have superior knowledge does not make it so. There are many who have a knowledge of scriptures that is superior to the gb.

          God’s spirit works in the world to help people know him as an individual, not just as good principles to follow. If a person fights against that work the spirit does enough it will eventually not attempt to lead that person to God. That sustained resistance to God’s spirit is sinning against the Holy Spirit. And in these cases it does not matter if the Holy Spirit is a separate individual god, as some believe, or it is from the Father himself. In either case it is still God. Same as if I apply my force to accomplish something, it is still me.

          Your hatred for the god of the Bible suggests you may have gone as far as I’ve outlined above through your resistance. If not already over the precipice you appear to at least be right on the edge, as are others who comment here. Factually if the Bible is true that observation certainly is true also. If the Bible is a hoax, as some of you suggest, you have nothing to fear though, do you? But what if it isn’t?

          In the Greek scrips Christ himself is described as killing people who do not know God and/or do not obey him, the same way people were killed in the Hebrew scrips. Or, do you also not accept the Greek scrips, but want to pick and choose the ones you follow?

          • Caroline says:

            Yes messenger, to Christendom, the god of the Old Testament and the god of the New Testament is the same god and that is what they call the trinity. They are monotheists whereas the Watchtower is polytheists in that they think they are monotheists in only worshipping one god but they call Jesus a god too, only an inferior god or a god with a small g. They claim they don’t “worship” Jesus and that is why Watchtower thinks it is a monotheistic religion. Both Christendom and Watchtower think they are a monotheistic religion but the only difference is that Christendom thinks Jesus and Jehovah is the same god. They do believe in Jehovah though but that Jesus is just a different manifestation of the one god, made up of 3 persons.

            Nobody can explain the trinity because the Bible doesn’t make any sense so people believe what they want to believe and they try and make sense out of the nonsensical which is the Bible. If you want to believe in the trinity, the scriptures are there and if you don’t want to believe in the trinity, those scriptures are also there. That is why it doesn’t make any sense.

            I don’t hate any “real” god but if I did, I would take Jesus at his word when he said that the Jews’ father was the devil because he was a murderer from the beginning and a liar and he must have been talking about the god of the Jews Jehovah and I will give you just a couple of examples from the Hebrew Scriptures, describing Jehovah, the god of the Jews:

            Ezekiel 14:9 “But if the prophet is fooled and gives a response, it is I, Jehovah, who have fooled that prophet. I will then stretch out my hand against him and annihilate him from my people Israel.”

            2 Chronicles 18:21 “He replied, ‘I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all hi prophets.’ So he said, ‘You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.'”

            1 Kings 22:23 “And now Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, but Jehovah has declared calamity for you.”

            I have asked the question before and I will ask it again: Can you think of even one commandment from Jehovah that is recorded in the Old Testament that you would follow today? When you think of following and loving and obeying God, you are really thinking of Christian principles and not any laws from the the Law that Jehovah gave to the Israelites through Moses.

            There are 3 separate accounts in the Bible about the supposed ten commandments and the only one that is the same in all 3 is the one about the sabbath and if anybody was caught picking up wood on the Sabbath, that person was stoned to death, even though one of the supposed ten commandments was that they weren’t to murder.

            Jesus’ only commandments were to love god with all their heart, soul, mind and strength and the 2nd was to love their neighbor as themselves. Now those two commandments make sense but not the over 600 that are in the Law Covenant, which Jehovah gave to the Iraaelites.

            I think that the god that we as Witnesses worshipped was a god of our own and Watchtower’s making. It wasn’t the god of the Hebrew Scriptures. It is a god that they made up and we bought it and believed in it but we weren’t paying attention to what the Bible really describes as the real god of the ancient Jews, which is described fully in the Old Testament but we weren’t paying attention to that god described in the Bible. If we actually paid attention to that god described in the Hebrew Scriptures, I don’t know how anybody would not hate that god. He was a horrible god.

            Just think messenger. Jehovah had those ancient Jews go into Canaan and murder and slaughter millions of those pagan people because they supposedly worshipped false gods but who was it that killed their own children and burnt them up on the alter to Jehovah to those false gods Baal and Moloch? It was the Jews and that was supposedly “after” all those pagans had been wiped off the face of the earth along with all their pagan false gods.

            So, why did they burn up their kids in the fire to those gods again?

          • messenger says:


            {“Jesus’ only commandments were to love god with all their heart, soul, mind and strength and the 2nd was to love their neighbor as themselves. Now those two commandments make sense but not the over 600 that are in the Law Covenant, which Jehovah gave to the Iraaelites.”} That’s one of your quotes above Caroline.

            False reasoning runs all through your comments Caroline. Just like with the ones dee2 used to make lack of logical thought runs throughout yours also. I could still believe that your ignorant assertions are made because God’s spirit does not allow you to see obvious truths and logical thought concerning Bible writings. However, another possibility exists also; that is one of outright deception. When someone as well read as you asserts obvious falsehoods, it’s very difficult for me to tell, especially without being able to read your body language when putting forth such nonsense.

            I’m sure you know Jesus stated the whole law and the prophets “rested on, or were fulfilled when observing those two commandments”(elaborations mine), which implies keeping those laws of God for the ancient Jew. Also, you know what God Christ was talking about in that commandment he said was the most important. It’s very difficult for me to believe you don’t, but just in case that’s true I’ll tell you. Christ was talking about the Jewish God Jehovah, as we call god by that name.

            So, if you don’t believe in God that’s your business. Your profession not to hate the God of the Bible is an obvious lie, your hatred is seen in numerous comments. Your profession is that you don’t hate God because you don’t know him, or who he is? Well, according to you, you are no spring chicken, so why is it you do not know God by now, having lived most of you human life? Only one of two possible answers could be true. Either the truth about God has not been revealed to you, or it has and you’ve rejected it. The messenger you keep referring to, Christ, commented on those type of persons many times, those who do not know God or choose not to follow him. In one comment he (Christ) stated that he (Christ) must reveal God to a person for him/her to know God. Another illogical thought of yours, or false pretense, is that you do or would follow Christ but not his father. You do not in the slightest follow either. So, why make that false statement? Is the reason to deceive those who follow Christ or is it really purely do to ignorance? The later reason is difficult to believe for the reasons I’ve outlined.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, I don’t know if you noticed or not but my “false assertions and obvious falsehoods and ignorance and nonsense and illogical thoughts and false pretenses that I supposedly made were Bible Scriptures straight out of the Hebrew Bible and asking simple questions about those scriptures.

            I ask you again and I will ask you again and again if you can think of even one scripture from the Hebrew God Jehovah to the Israelites through Moses that you would follow today that Jesus supposedly summed up in loving their neighbor as themselves and also to love Jehovah with their whole heart, soul and strength and mind.

            How about the commandment to stone your child if they sassed back to you? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about burning prostitutes? Is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about keeping slaves forever and forever and even passing them onto their children as “property?” How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about sacrificing your firstborn to Jehovah to be killed? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor? How about not boiling a kid in it’s mother’s milk? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor? How about being able to kill your slaves as long as they could limp around for at least 2 days? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about stoning a girl to death if she couldn’t prove her virginity on her wedding night? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about forcing a girl to marry her rapist? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about a woman having to drink bitter water to force an abortion if her husband was jealous if she got pregnant? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about being able to sell your children as slaves if the father got into debt? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about the men being able to have as many concubines as they wanted but the wife being stoned to death if she committed adultery? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about not keeping the sabbath which was the death penalty? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about not being able to eat pork? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself? How about not mixing two different kinds of cloth? How is that summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself?

            One of the commandments was not to murder, but Jehovah told those Israelites to go into Canaan and kill millions of people for the crime of being there first so that commandment didn’t last long when Moses told the Israelites to kill all their friends and relatives when Aaron made a golden calf for them and they danced around to it and Moses got mad about it.

            I will ask you again. Why did the Israelites kill and offer up their children in the fire to ANY false god if the Israelites had gone into Canaan and exterminated them all along with all their false gods? Maybe it was because that was part of the Law Code given to them from Jehovah through Moses that they were to give their first born to Jehovah as a gift offering.

            Exodus 13:14-15: “”And it must occur that in case your son should inquire of you later on, saying, ‘What I does this mean?’ then you must say to him,’By strength of hand Jehovah brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slaves. And it came about that Pharaoh showed obstinancy toward sending us away,and Jehovah proceeded to kill every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the first born of man to the firstborn of beast. That is why I am sacrificing to Jehovah all the males that open the womb, and every firstborn of my sons I redeem.”

            Did you ever wonder why they needed the laws about polygamy? Maybe it’s because there were so many first born boys being murdered and offered to Jehovah or to their other false gods, that there weren’t enough boys to go around for all those girls left over. Did you ever wonder why so many girls and not enough men to marry them?

            I think there are some very good principles that the gospels say that were supposedly said by Jesus. Jesus didn’t write anything so we only have 2nd hand or 3rd hand accounts about what Jesus might have said but most of those sayings were good sayings for the most part but those sayings of Jesus are not extraordinary. Most are just good common sense if you want to get along with people.

            As far as hating the god of the Hebrew Bible, I make no pretenses. Yes, if that God actually did exist, I would hate him every bit as much as I hate Hitler and so should you.

            Everything you say is straight from Watchtower. You have no basis for explaining the Bible Scriptures I have put in my comments, so you come back with insults such as: Ignorance, deception, obvious falsehoods, nonsense, illogical and false pretenses.

            That is your way to answer to my Bible scriptures and those type of comments are not allowed on this web site. I have been respectful to you and have only been using the Bible to back up my comments, but you come back with insults and disrespect.

            If you had any Bible answers to my questions, you would have put them down here but you obviously don’t have any answers. Everything you say is coming from emotion and not facts and unbecoming of a “Christian”. Come back with some facts that the Bible doesn’t contradict and I might become a believer in the god of the Hebrew Bible. .

          • messenger says:

            @ Caroline

            No Caroline your false assertions do not come out of the Bible. The Bible does not claim the god of the Hebrew scriptures is not the god of the Greek scriptures. The Bible does claim Jesus followed that god. The Bible does claim Christ repeated much more than two commandments and even added to those Jewish commandments himself. Claiming false stories about these things are the sort of phony boloney assertions I speak of. The sort of phony boloney assertion that the Bible teaches Jehovah is Moloch when the scriptures clearly teach the opposite. You and your friend dee2 make a lot of false assertions you claim are backed up by scripture, which only have the possibility of fooling the extremely ill informed. For any Biblically literate person those assertions appear to be deceptive, being so far removed from obvious truths which could be discerned through simple reading comprehension. It is possible, as the Bibles claims, that Satan has blinded your minds from reason.

            Here is some of the nonsense published here by you and your friend dee2. You and/or dee2 teach:

            1. The Bible teaches it is not necessary to believe and follow Christ to receive God’s salvation (implied as salvation for everlasting life).
            2. The Bible teaches the god identified in the Hebrew scriptures by the tetragrammaton is the Bible god Moloch that accepted burnt human children as sacrifices.
            3. The Bible teaches Jesus did not work with, support, and direct people to follow and worship the God of the Hebrew scriptures identified by the tetragrammaton.

            Those are few of the false assertions made by you or dee2 which are not stated in scripture. Thus proving another false assertion you made when you claimed to present only scriptures as your assertions. You certainly do not. Look again at those points listed numbers one and three. Those are so easily refuted by beginning Bible students it appears as deception presented by a Bible reader as well read as you.

            You can ask all the questions of me you wish, it doesn’t mean I’ll answer those. Ask those of God. Ask those of your god. And ask why he has not revealed himself to you. Certainly you looked for him long enough for that to have happened by now, have you not?

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, Jesus never referred to the tetragrammaton as his father and god. Watchtower inserted that into the Bible where it was not originally. In the originals. It was Jesus who was to be worshipped, not Jehovah in the Greek Scriptures.

            When Thomas doubted Jesus and Jesus showed him his hands and his wounds, Thomas said, my Lord and my God. The Bible says to call on the name of the Lord (Jesus) and the Society put Jehovah in there instead. You are being misled by Watchtower.

            When Jesus said to the Jews that their father was the devil because he said their father was a liar and a murderer, I showed you scriptures where the Bible speaks of Jehovah as a deceiver and it was Jehovah who sent the Israelites into Canaan to kill millions of people by the sword and the Bible doesn’t speak of anybody that the Devil murdered at all. Devil just means resister. It doesn’t mean murderer whereas the Bible speaks of Jehovah as killing all kinds of people.

            We are not speaking here of commands of Jesus to follow. We are speaking here of the commands of Jehovah from the Hebrew Bible. What commands of Jehovah would you follow today? That is YOUR god that you follow. You only think you are following the commands of Jehovah but you are actually following the commands of Jesus and Paul.

            Watchtower has convinced you that the god of the Hebrew scriptures had plenty of reasons to murder the first born of all of Egypt and kill the whole earth by a flood and murder millions of people in Canaan simply because they were there because it’s that god who gave you life by the Bible’s opening words: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”.

            But did the god of the Hebrew Scriptures actually create the heavens and the earth, just because that is what the Bible says? If that god actually did create the heavens and the earth and he actually did “pen” the Bible as it is, then that God is a terrible person because that is the way that God is described in the Bible. It isn’t my words that describe Jehovah. It’s the Bible. That is your enemy. It isn’t me.

            At Acts 7:43 when Stephen said the Jews were worshipping the tent of Moloch in the wilderness for 40 years, then that was their God or the Bible is lying. There are Scriptures where the Bible says that Jehovah blessed them and protected them in the wilderness, right? Remember where their shoes didn’t even wear out?

            So who was their God in the wilderness? Was it the angel Jehovah or was it the god Jehovah? If he blessed them, then that was their god leading them through the wilderness and it was Stephen who said it was Moloch, not me.

            You are the one that needs to read your Bible.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline you admitted yourself that Christendom agrees with me. And why do you call Christians Christendom in agreement with WT? Your assertions are so outlandish no Christian accepts them. That you admitted yourself in your posted comments. And that’s why those are not worth arguing over. The only folks you find to support your assertions do not believe in the Bible, therefore they are not Christians(who comprise over 36% of Earth’s population).

            While not proving its truthfulness the fact that Christianity is the world’s largest religion agrees with scriptural prophecy. Your objection to some of the god of the Bible’s actions, which you at times portray inaccurately, are just your objections. Your objections only prove your opinion. If God’s character was assessed by Christians and caused them to reach your opinion, you might be right, God might have less followers. However, that’s not the case. Christianity is the world’s largest religion. And you make false claims about its nature, and Christians themselves (they don’t read the Hebrew scriptures being one). Ridiculous!

            There are facts in the Bible and outside of it that prove God’s existence that are indisputable, which your only defense against is that they are not proven to you. God does not have to prove them to you. No one does. You either accept those or reject those. That’s your choice. God has always contacted people to prove his existence. He’s contacted thousands at least, maybe millions. That number is not known by me. Those people are either lying or God exists. You can believe we’re lying, delusional or anything else you want. Believe the same about the Bible writers if you decide to. They were lying or delusional or both, and yet they comprised a literary work that is by far the most widely translated and published the world has ever known, containing stories of the world’s most famous character (Jesus)? What a feat to pull off by lying delusional people. That is if your beliefs are true. And throughout history even in our day people claim they are contacted by the Bible’s god. Quite remarkable for a book that is not true to have that effect.

            As far as this site’s rules, I believe blasphemy is not allowed, or am I wrong there also?

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, as long as you keep coming back defending your god Jehovah and the god that Judge Rutherford decided to name his religion over, I can’t help but keep coming back with scriptures from the Bible that describes Jehovah.

            How about this one at Ezekiel from the New World Translation at Ezekiel 20:25,26:

            “And I myself also let them have regulations that were not good and judicial decisions by which they could not keep living. And I would let them become defiled by their gifts when they made every child opening the womb pass through the fire, in order that I might make them desolate in order that they might know that I am Jehovah.””

            Here messenger, the Bible comes right out and says that Jehovah required the Israelites to burn their firstborn to him in the fire and it was so that they might know that he was “Jehovah”.

            What does it take for you to realize what kind of God it is that Rutherford decided to name his religion over?

            There are other youtubers who have done videos on the outlines for the talks this summer and almost nothing is said about Jesus but isn’t Jesus’ teachings the ones that you would normally think of when it comes to being a “Christian” and following the Bible?

            Again I ask you: What if any of the commandments from Jehovah would you follow today? I keep asking and you refuse to say. That is the God that you worship. It isn’t Jesus. So, if it’s Jehovah you are following and worshipping, then there should be something from Jehovah that you need to follow. What if any of the commandments from Jehovah’s own words, would you follow today?

            I am not asking for what Jesus said or Paul. I want something from Jehovah that you would follow today.

            I know you keep coming back with comments because you feel you need to “defend” the Bible but every time you do that, it gives me one more chance to come back here and tell any new viewers more and more scriptures describing Jehovah as a despot so keep your comments coming.

          • messenger says:

            @ Caroline

            You ask others a lot of questions, and you do a lot of research in order to ask those. Your questions are usually aimed at destroying faith in others not building faith in your own god Caroline. So, here’s a question you might answer for your readers. You’ve claimed not to believe humans evolved from lower forms of life, so who is your god Caroline-the one who created humans? Rather than just attempt to destroy the faith of others in the Bible’s god, why not at least use some of your energy and this forum to point these folks to the true god and creator? Who is he?

            Please don’t attempt to evade the question by referring to site rules. I doubt those rules will prevent you from giving a complete and truthful answer.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, I don’t ask a lot of questions and the only “research” I do is finding scriptures for you to look up in your Bible and if those scriptures destroy your faith in the Bible Jehovah, then I am glad.

            You took on the name of Jehovah’s Witness because Joseph Rutherford took on that name and you adopted that name without even reading up in your Bible about what all that God did in the Hebrew Scriptures, didn’t you? Don’t be ashamed of doing that because all of us did that who took on the name of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

            I will ask you again and again to name just one of the bible commands from Jehovah from the Hebrew scriptures that you would follow today because that is the god that you worship and it’s his commands that you need to follow.

            Jesus did not come along and do away with all the principles and laws found in the Mosaic Law that Jehovah gave to the Israelites. Jesus even said in Matthew that he did not come along to do away with the Mosaic Law but it was to be followed down to every jot and tittle. :

            “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. Whoever, therefore breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens.” Matthew 5:17-19

            Messenger I never claimed to not believe in evolution. I just said that I have a hard time believing that all life evolved from a one-celled ameba. That still doesn’t mean that I don’t believe that. I just find it hard to believe.

            The maker (if there was one) of heaven and earth was invisible, right? And that invisible “creator” made everything in heaven and earth out of absolutely nothing, right? That is every bit as hard to believe as all life in heaven and earth coming from a one-celled ameba too.

            I am not going to lose sleep over how we got here and I will not pray to an invisible god that I know only seemed to appear 2,000 years ago and seems to have lost interest in what’s going on in the earth.

            The Bible’s explanation of why God doesn’t do away with all the babies dying every day in the earth in saying that God is “patient” with mankind letting them decide to serve Jehovah is lame to say the least.

            If God has the power to fix the earth and all the suffering and death and he doesn’t do it, either he can’t fix it or he doesn’t care to fix it or he doesn’t exist.

            Using the word patient is just an excuse for inaction and people will wait and wait for their god to “fix” the earth instead of trying to fix it themselves. That is what religion does to people. It puts a roadblock in the way of perfectly intelligent people from taking the bull by the horns and getting to work themselves. It makes them lazy, waiting for god to fix it.

            Preaching the Bible to people so that all people on earth will become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses (before God destroys the wicked world at Armageddon) would take a million years and in the meantime, the earth could become a garbage dump instead of a paradise.

            Fortunately there are lots of good people who do their part in improving the earth and the lives of others less fortunate instead of waiting for god to do it by hopefully turning them all into worshippers of the Hebrew god Jehovah.

            Maybe the earth actually could become a paradise for their children and grandchildren if they would just stop waiting for their god to fix it and they worked on it themselves in their own little part of of the world and stop believing that placing Bible literature is the answer, like Watchtower would like you to believe.

            Messenger, I don’t have a god but your god is Jehovah, not Jesus. What has Jehovah commanded that you would follow today?

            That is the question you keep refusing to answer.

          • messenger says:

            Thanks for the clarification Caroline. I didn’t think you believed in a god as a creator, but it’s good that you admit to that for your readers. If that’s the case I see no logical reason for you to adamantly argue against the Bible’s god. That’s would be like me spending years of research into a radical Islamic belief in order to prove it wrong. What would be the point of my effort? It would not stop that belief. So, why should I spend so much time to denounce it? The only reason I denounce your assertions is because those are not true and I’m a Christian. If I was Muslim or of some other belief why should I care what you write here about the Bible? If I didn’t believe the Bible as you do not, why would I care if others did?

            I still see a lot of erroneous assertions in your logic, but that’s your way. Maybe you think those illogical statements makes sense, even while admitting Christians do not agree with you. As far as Christians spending their time to make this world a paradise and that happening because of their effort, that’s not going to happen. Why hasn’t it happened already because of everyone else’s (not Christian) efforts? It’s not going to happen, and I think you know that. I see not point in attempting to prove Bible interpretation to someone who hates the God of the Bible, or answer their questions about scripture.

  35. Sharon Christensen says:

    Do not give up and in! Heck, that would mean they have succeeded….Never let them snuff out your life and happiness…not easy to keep headz up…but sites like this are a very big help!!!! Even though not from Orgy backgrounds…there are many worldly folk , who themselves have given up on reilgions in general, who still believe in a kind and good God…I feel there is…look around you….He has crossed His arms and allowed men to do as they want for a time perhaps…But grab a copy of…Womans World, or some kind of article on how people have been kindly helped by strangers…Like this one older lady here who has kinda…adopted me since my JW Mother gave up on me…better for her and better for me…was not there for me as a little child, why need her now…she was Anglican, yet did not approve of their shedding of innocent blood etc., she says there is a Higher power, just not the one reiigions say. Their actions etc., turn people away from… Her, her hubby and two grown sons..quietly observe in thought Easter, etc….good folk and kind….these kind of people are all over…you are not alone…as for Schiller Rick…find an adoptive Mum…heck, do not go crazy because of trying to please yours…it is a power and control thing…adictions to…all connected….they need you to feed their addictions…shake it off…tell them change, or you need to leave to save your sanity! yes we can help…but only if they want it…other wise…turn your back…go and no regrets. Google info on all kinds of positive stuff to improve ones outlk…listen to music to mk you happy…Dance…like no ones watching!!! Heck and evn if they are…why worry! Life is definitely too short to be anything but happy!!! Enjoy!!! Bee wyld! Be kind to somene…mk their day…smile, it is contagious…But for now…this ” Medium”, has to grab her sage, feather duster….and tk off cuz I have a cleansing to do! Good day to all…pleasant thoughts…be happi

  36. Whip It says:

    Ricardo thanks, no one here where i live to talk to, its a trust thing to, you dare not mention anything due to someone possibly telling the cops, i stayed home last nite & had a great nites sleep, no guilt, feeling quite good this morning, going to have a break from work, so won’t post anything for a while, the thing that helps me the most is this site & others where i can talk honestly to like minded people. many thanks

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It,
      Yes, this site is fantastic. Because there is no way to let off steam in our organization. If you start talking about how silly something is, you are painted as apostate for your negative thinking. And if you want to get answers for things from elders and CO’s, well, hope on. If you don’t accept what they say you are being negative. And sometimes the ‘bitter’ word is thrown in: Ricardo is bitter.

      Enjoy your time off. Catch up when you’re back.

  37. Shibboleth says:

    @Schiller Rick, aré you by Any chance related to Jado? Just wondering.

  38. Sharon Christensen says:

    I to have no one to talk to so appreciate this site…the family I had Jw.org…gave up on me, but that is good…somethings definity wrong with so called Religion/ family when they start to laugh and poke fun of each other…when the respect and care that should be there is not….Yes Jw.org teaches …How to have a Happy family life…yep…when I see other religions, including the “Native” one that I am now going by…treating all in family with respect and honour…I do not think…Jw.org has the “Truth” about anything…Rome fell because of family decay…so will Jw.org in time. What goes around comes around. Empathy gets one no wheres…I am going Narcistic like the rest …Remember The Golden Rule….Do Unto others…as ….But there is no God…There is no Jesus….There is no Devil…Hmm…well I am off to worship Mother Willow. Live for today for tomorrow we may diet….Trust thing here to…Never poke a wrench in the eye bawl.

    • Jennifer says:


      I too appreciate this site. I’ve learn’t more about the bible and JW’S on this site and
      JWfacts than when I was an active publisher.
      I enjoy reading your comments as well. You manage to touch my heart and my sense of
      humour in just a few lines.
      Give my regards to Mother Willow.


  39. Concerned JW says:

    I wonder how long before the videos get leaked?

  40. Mary Jane Smith says:

    That’s a lot of video to watch for 3 days. I think a lot more people will be falling asleep. I Wonder how many attending in the back of their mind will think I came for this? They could just post links and their members could save gas, time and money by watching from home.

    • Freedom says:

      If they stay home, how will they donate or have JW.Org brought out credit facility to donate online now?