Reclaimed Voices Foundation: Holding Watchtower to Account.

In recent years, Watchtower’s child abuse crisis has become increasingly common knowledge across the globe.

In Australia, we have seen a Royal Commission undertake two separate investigations into the religion’s handling of child abuse, discovered that over one thousand JW child molesters in the country had not been reported to the police by Watchtower, and issued damning reports on the critical failures it uncovered. Hours of testimony, including testimony from Witness elders and Senior Watchtower officials including Governing Body Member Geoffrey Jackson, can all be viewed online.

In the UK, the Charity Commission has likewise mounted investigations into Watchtower (currently still ongoing) and has issued its first report severely critical of the religion’s handling of child abuse, and also of the religion’s attempts to shut down the investigation.

In the US, Watchtower has been embroiled in a series of disastrous and expensive lawsuits, losing case after case, and being fined by the court for refusing to turn over a database of allegedly  thousands of JW child molesters that have never been reported to the police. US Investigative news organisation has been publishing the work of Journalist Trey Bundy, who has become a world expert in covering the worldwide scandal.

In Canada, Watchtower has also experienced painful media coverage of this issue, and may be facing a $68 million class action lawsuit from abuse survivors.

And now it appears the people of Holland are starting to wake up to the terrible issue of hidden child sex abuse inside the Jehovah’s Witnesses. In the Netherlands, there has been been a recent surge in coverage of the issue of Watchtower’s international child sex abuse scandal. Articles have appeared in the newspaper Trouw, and reports such as this one have appeared on the Dutch TV News show RTL (click cc on the video for English subtitles.)

Much of this media exposure is down to the bravery of abuse survivors coming forward to tell their story to the media and to government, and helping them to do so are the Reclaimed Voices foundation.

Who are Reclaimed Voices?

Aswin Suierveld and Raymond Hintjes of Reclaimed Voices.

To get some background on who Reclaimed Voices are and how they came about, I spoke with two members of the foundation; Raymond Hintjes and Aswin Suierveld.

Both are former Witnesses; Raymond was raised in the religion whereas Aswin joined when she was 24 years old. Raymond moved up the ranks of the faith, eventually serving as an elder, however he ultimately left due to irreconcilable differences. He was gay, something the religion does not allow, and this led to his questioning of the religion. Since leaving he has obtained training in practical theology and a degree in religious studies.

Aswin left the religion when she was 36. She studied theology and later got a degree in practical theology which included extensive training in pastoral care. Ironically, Aswin points out that her education in this field has made her realise how poorly many JW elders perform their pastoral care duties; much of Watchtower’s advice and training in this matter to elders is, according to Aswin, a perfect example of what NOT to do.

(At this point I have to note the irony; Awsin has far more professional training and knowledge of how to care for a flock than most elders do, and yet Watchtower’s strict policy of gender role enforcement would keep Aswin from any such “shepherding” roles and would hand the role to far less qualified men purely on the basis of gender.)

The foundation originally began in an exJW facebook group, where many exJW members were sharing stories of sexual abuse inside the organisation. At the same time, the newspaper Trouw was preparing a series of articles on the 2015 Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex Abuse. Members of the group agreed to share their stories with Trouw. Reclaimed Voices member Frank Huiting was one of those who did so, and he realised whilst doing so that there was a need not only to share stories and articles but to actually form an organisation to help survivors of Child Sex Abuse. He had experience working with and forming other foundations, and brought his expertise to bear on the task.

And so Reclaimed Voices was formed.

The goals of Reclaimed Voices

Angus Stewart, senior council at the Royal Commission, has delivered damning summary findings detailing Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse

The role of Reclaimed Voices is to support survivors of child sex abuse inside the Jehovah’s Witness religion. Aswin and Raymond point out that for many survivors, contacting Reclaimed Voices is often the first chance such survivors have to ever tell their story. They receive many, many emails which are answered by Aswin, who with her degree in Pastoral Care, and is well trained to listen and give comfort. At the time of writing, Reclaimed Voices has been contacted by over 250 survivors and, interestingly, some of these are still active and believing Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Something Raymond and Aswin are very keen to stress is that thier foundation is not seeking to tear down the faith of any active JW’s; or challenge the religious teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rather, they are simply helping abuse survivors cope with thier experiences and thus a JW who has experienced abuse but does not want thier religion itself attacked can feel safe contacting Reclaimed Voices.

The foundation guarantees total anonymity for those who contact it, so if you are a Witness in the Netherlands reading this, but are hesitant to reach out to the Foundation, please do not be.

Your identity will be protected and no-one will seek to undermine your faith.

The further goals of Reclaimed Voices are as follows. They want Watchtower to adopt a child centred safeguarding policy that will adopt the three main recommendations from the Australian Royal Commission, namely;

  • To no longer use the Two Witness Rule in cases of Child Sex Abuse.
  • To include women in the judicial process.
  • To not shun anyone who leaves the religion as a consequence of suffering Child Sex Abuse.

Additionally, Reclaimed Voices wants the Dutch branch of the religion to publicly acknowledge the problem that the organisation has and to apologise for past harm caused by its policies, in much the same vein as many other prominent religions have done. It would be a very healing gesture and very helpful for survivors, Raymond points out, if at the upcoming Regional conventions in the Netherlands, such a statement was read out and a prayer offered in which the organisation asked for Jehovah’s forgiveness.

How has Watchtower reacted?

A Tumblr cartoon, satirising Watchtower’s current attitude to its child abuse crisis.

Such an act would be a marked change from Watchtower’s current attitude, which is clearly very frustrating to the Foundation. Raymond mentions a cartoon that was published on Tumblr that he feels sums up Watchtower’s attitude; in the cartoon, leaders of other faiths are apologising for failing the children, whilst the Watchtower leader is complaining that the children have not yet apologised to him!

This sadly seems to capture the current Watchtower attitude very well; Watchtower seem to be convinced it has done nothing wrong, and is dismissing any claims to the contrary as “apostate lies.”

For Raymond and Aswin, this is a key point. The Watchtower claims to have the highest moral standards of all religions on the planet, but thier actions in the matter of child sex abuse are in clear conflict with this claim.

I ask a question that I’ve been very curious about: Has Watchtower’s Netherlands Branch met with Reclaimed Voices? In the Trouw article, the Watchtower Branch Spokesperson indicated that this might be possible.

It turns out that, as is so often the case with Watchtower, the organisation was saying one thing when it really meant another. Apparently, the spokesman agreed in theory to meet with them, but only under “certain conditions.” It was not mentioned what these conditions were. Reclaimed Voices wrote a letter to the Branch to initiate dialogue, which was also published as an open letter. It took four weeks for the Branch to reply but the reply gave no substantive response, simply stating that they would contact Reclaimed Voices at some future date. And so far, that has been the only reply.

“They are not keen to have this conversation at all,” says Raymond. He suspects the “conditions” are that the members of Reclaimed Voices would have to repent and return to the Watchtower religion before any conversation can take place. And then, of course, any “returned” Witness would be forbidden from challenging the religion’s Governing Body on this matter, thus effectively shutting any discussion down.

However, Reclaimed Voices have reason to think that whilst the leadership of the religion might be trying to avoid this issue altogether, there is evidence to show that the rank and file of the religion are becoming increasingly aware and unsettled by the issue.

For example, they know of one Circuit Overseer who is aware of the problem, and who thinks the religion should alter its policies. They have also heard of other belivieing Witnesses who are aware of the issue and are troubled. Petitions that have been started on this issue in the Netherlands are sometimes signed by active Witnesses.

It has become clear that this is an issue that Watchtower can no longer ignore; the issue has been brought before the Government Ministry of Justice and Safety in the Netherlands, and the Ministry is clearly concerned.

Watchtower’s child abuse crisis: Will the government respond?

Both Watchtower and Reclaimed Voices have been in discussion with the Ministry on this issue, and in the last few days the issue has been discussed in open session. You can view the footage yourself on the Reclaimed Voices youtube channel. The audio is in Dutch but you can click the “cc” button to get English language subtitles.

It’s clear in the video that the committee are deeply concerned; not only that cases of child abuse appear to be going unreported within the Witness community, but also that the Witnesses appear to be bypassing the Dutch legal system by dealing with dangerous sexual predators in their own religious courts.

It is additionally pointed out during this hearing that failing to report a serous crime once a person become aware of it is actually a criminal offence. I would therefore point out that it’s possible Watchtower’s Dutch Branch has been breaking the law for years, as have elders who have sat in Judicial committees that found a person guilty of child sexual assault, but have not reported it.

Movement on this issue is still in its early days, but the Minister in this video appears to be pushing for a number of solutions;

  • That as many of the survivors be encouraged to report to the police as possible. This will enable the department of public prosecutions to act more assertively towards the issue. It appears that without official reports to the police, the government may be limited in its response. My understanding from Reclaimed Voices is that such reports are indeed being filed and a collective prosecution may be in the pipeline.
  • There was a serious concern raised to the committee by Reclaimed Voices that Watchtower may destroy incriminating documents. Indeed, this was a major subject in the letter that arrived during the hearing but could not be read out. In response, the Minister seems very clear that such destruction would be a criminal offence and says that Watchtower has been informed of this. Additionally Reclaimed Voices is working with survivors and lawyers to get Watchtower files related to those victim’s cases released.
  • That an independent investigation be set up to look into the problem. This investigation would need to have the confidence and board support of all involved, and thus could not be an internal investigation controlled by Watchtower.
  • That the issue of Watchtower failing to report serous crimes should be investigated.
  • That the use of internal religious courts by the JW’s to keep serious offences from becoming public should also be investigated.

So this appears to be where we are right now. Things are moving quickly and further updates in this story will no doubt be coming. Speaking for myself, it’s heartening to see a modern democratic government move so swiftly to address this issue. Of course, much could still happen in the future and there is still uncertainly as to what the end result could be, but it’s clear that at this stage of the processes the Ministry seems genuinely appalled by what has been uncovered by Dutch journalists and Reclaimed Voices, and seems to be very serious about addressing the problem.

In the meantime, I urge you to follow Reclaimed Voices on twitter @reclaimedvoices, on thier youtube channel and to check out thier website at

You can also view an interview that Reclaimed Voices member Raymond Hintjes gave to the JW Survey team on the youtube channel of Senior Editor and Founder Lloyd Evans below.


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223 Responses to Reclaimed Voices Foundation: Holding Watchtower to Account.

  1. Monkeyman says:

    Thanks for the update, CF. Let’s hope & pray (for those so inclined) that this kind of increasing global pressure soon crushes watchtower’s disastrous child abuse policies, and hey, watchtower itself. Though, aside from watchtower’s own mentally-diseased culture, it is mind-boggling that here we are in the 21st century, in the so-called “civilized” or “developed” world, the space age, the computer age, the information age, finding ourselves in the position of making a case AGAINST child rape. I think another thing that is quickly becoming common knowledge is that pedophilia, like illicit drugs, has permeated every niche of our society. Businessmen, movie stars, judges, lawyers, cops, even heads of state, have been known to commit these atrocities. And it may not be a torrent, just like not everyone on your street is a crackhead, but it’s not a trickle either. Back in the day, when the catholic church was found to be a cesspool of child abuse, public reaction was swift and furious. Now, not so much. So no wonder it’s an uphill struggle. Keep up the fight. If not we, who? If not now, when? The pendulum will swing the other way one day, Thank God (if there is one 🙂 ). But there is absolutely nothing wrong with helping it along.
    Seeing that Reclaimed Voices do NOT attempt to undermine the belief system of survivors, the watchtower leadership and elder/overseer cronies can save their collective breath and shut the hell up about “apostate lies” from now on (we can dream).
    For all those righteous folks who posted negative comments about homosexuality without a word about pedophilia, here’s your big chance to redeem yourselves. An entire article about child abuse. Knock yourselves out. Prove you are not flaming hypocrites.
    On a lighter note, something usually ignored, I just became reacquainted with Tony Morris’s and Stephen Lett’s smiling mugs at the top of the page. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. 🙂

    • Monkeyman says:

      One more point. The watchtower’s pedophilia problem proves one more thing: jehovas witnesses are just as much a part of the world as any other part of the world. They are not better. Their way of life is not superior. Their philosophy is not superior. Their culture is not superior. They are not privy to any special wisdom or knowledge. The bible’s so-called “wisdom” only serves to exacerbate already bad situations, if not outright causing those situations. Same goes for any other “holy” book. These “manuals” cause more damage than benefits. In financial terms, it’s called being in the red. One is losing more than they are gaining. If organized religion were a business, it would have gone bankrupt a long, long time ago. But the conniving con men at the head of every major religion have managed to brainwash their sheep into beating the same dead horse over and over again for the last 3.5 millennia.

    • Chiafade says:

      Can’t condemn pedophilia without condemning the sky man. In all his wisdom he chose a 12-14 year old girl to be the messiah’s mom on earth.

      • Sarah says:

        Not sure where you got that from. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Mary was 12-14. The Bible gave us our basic rules – no murder, stealing etc. If you love your neighbor you won’t harm them. Good laws.

        The problem is the interpretation. Two witnesses is quite a good law if you include evidence, which Jesus did in John 5. Other laws to go with it are that judges must not be prejudiced, must ‘investigate thoroughly’ and check if the witnesses’ testimony is correct. However, the GB instructs elders NOT to inform the accused of the case against them. This is against scripture and prevents investigating thoroughly.

        This is very short – there’s far more to this judging business.

        • Sarah says:

          Sorry, left out most important bit: Criminal matters are to be left to God’s minster, the ‘superior authorities’, so the question of two witnesses should not come up when dealing with child abuse. Elders are not to deal with such matters anyway.

          • Big B says:

            @ Sarah:

            You are quite correct when you say that “Elders are not to deal with such matters anyway”. It’s a matter for the authorities when a crime has been committed, not just a sin but a perverted crime. That is why the Society is so inept at figuring out this simple concept, they believe the elders have the wherewithal to handle this nonsense in-house. Big mistake! Which is why the public fury and disgust is directed at the Watchtower at this time.

            I don’t believe that the Christian congregation should be following the Mosiac Law, period. If we do then we are cherry picking the scriptures as to what should be followed and applied. If the Witnesses use part of the Mosiac Law then they should have to use and apply all of it! Then they would closely resemble the Seventh Day Adventist movement.

            Should Christians follow the Sabbath prohibitions, food prohibitions as well as circumcision too. Wasn’t the Mosiac Law removed with the death of Jesus Christ at Calvary, why don’t the Witnesses believe that and let the authorities do their work? Because, like all cults, they want and demand total control over their adherents.

  2. Longwinded Bastard says:

    messenger, messenger, wherefore art thou messenger?

    • Resister says:

      Hahaha. Yeah Hey messenger, what’s up buddy? Got writer’s cramp or something? We’re all waiting on one of your longwinded dissertations, this time on the evils of pedophilia. I’m sure you’ve got plenty to say about that. Let’s go man. Get the lead out! Time to put all that university training to good use. LMAO And where in the hell are Gardy and Michael? Still waiting on you guys to chime in! Got writer’s cramp too???!!! Try ice fellas.
      The 3 Stooges.

      • Resister says:

        Hey messenger buddy. Just being able to look up information and regurgitate it doesn’t make you smart.

        • messenger says:


          Okay Resister, let’s put that idea of yours about the correlation between the ability to regurgitate material and human intelligence to the test. Let us test your brain! To regurgitate material in scholarly work a writer must first understand it (his research), not copy and paste it like an ill-informed school child. To explain in his words what he understands from research makes the work his own. Copy and pasting is a non-scholarly crime for impotent brains. So, if you take on this task and fail we might assume -though I don’t like assuming since assumptions are often wrong- that regurgitating material might very well indicate a sign of intelligence, or at least an ability you don’t possess. And if you succeed you might find that scholarly puking up what someone else has discovered improves your own brain, thereby making it smarter.

          Here are a couple topics you might research and display your own acumen or brain power by proving one or not proving it, if you wish. Of course since no one is paying you the easy way out is to pass. Take that road if you wish, or choose the topic you like best and provide a definitive answer if you can find one. If you find there is no definitive proof tell us that. And please remember evidence is not definitive proof. Evidence that suggests something only points one’s mind in a certain direction that could cause it to come to true or false conclusions. Please tell all readers here:

          1. The definitive proof science has uncovered which, beyond a shadow of doubt, proves its evolutionary theory.


          2. The definitive proof historians have uncovered which proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the Bible book of Daniel was not completed and written at the approximate date listed in most Bibles.

          Go for it buddy. If you can find definitive proof to either of those tasks you’ll help a lot of commenters on this site who don’t believe in God feel better about their decision. If you only find facts that could be interpreted as possible supports to their decisions, you might help them feel better also; although in that latter case you might also be helping in their eternal demise per Biblical writings.

          If you take on this challenge and find no definitive proofs in your quest why don’t you admit that instead of trying to beat a dead horse as some here have done by quoting someone else’s opinions while providing no evidence to support their points, or providing evidence that, while making them feel good, does not definitively prove their point as they suggested it does. Evidence that supports proof is always factual, not opinions. And if evidence exists to prove either of those claims it’s out there and should be easy enough to find.


          • Resister says:

            messenger, WTF are you talking about? As usual, you are wayyy offtopic. In case you missed it, this is an anticult site, not an evolution vs. creation, or christianity vs. atheism, or theological debate site. Although I do credit you for your tireless efforts in diverting the narrative with your mindless arguments, longwinded dissertations, and psychotic assertions that the Creator of the Universe has personally contacted you. You are a charlatan and a con artist, and your motives are transparent to everyone. BTW, if you really want to know God, study physics, chemistry, etc, instead of all that bible-thumping nonsense. But then again, fairy tales are more fun, aren’t they?
            On another note, has anyone checked out the websites that sell JW greeting cards / sympathy cards? Wow. I guess it’s a whole new industry you could call YahweHallmark. LMAO

          • tranquillo says:

            Dear Messenger,
            I find your longwinded scripts fascinating. I find however disturbing that you have said many times to other people that you don’t read their posts as they are too long…. it seems that your message is more important than theirs.
            I suppose that there is no point in saying that the sun and moon were created on the fourth day while light was created on the first day, that there was the water for the flood held somehow above the earth.
            It would also be too long to dig into the translation and the exact meaning of the word we translate as “to create”
            As for the prophecies, I just remind you that we don’t know virtually nothing about Jesus apart from the gospels. And the writers of the gospels on the other hand were very knowledgeable about the prophecies…
            May I ask you one question? Is there anywhere in the Bible a single verse to protect children from abuse? I mean a specific verse in the style Leviticus goes on and on in forbidding having sex with a long list of relatives.
            It was very easy to add just another prohibition there, but the Bible is silent when it comes to the appropriate age to wed a girl. You know what is the tradition in that part of the world…
            Girls were wed very very young, in fact legalizing pedophilia. That is a fact not very often mentioned, but the Word leaves room to that. The Ruler has ruled that pedophilia is fine when it is within the marriage.

          • Sarah says:

            Re: Messenger’s challenges: 1. We don’t know what life is. When we do, then we can say whether or not it evolved. E.G. DNA is not alive, but we are and can’t live without it, so what is life? 2. Didn’t the Jews read Daniel to Alexander the Great? Hope they didn’t show him the bit about him dying at a very young age.
            Short comment, you notice.

          • messenger says:


            I first wrote a response to your comment letting you know what I really believe about your abilities Resister. But I deleted that one. I thought of how Christ failed to rebuke the devil Satan (the biblical resister). Who knows, maybe one day you’ll wake up. If you do so or not one day you’ll meet Christ, and then you’ll fully understand why you are here right now and why you were allowed to do the things you do and say the things you say.

            If you don’t like reading my comments, don’t read those. I don’t write for you. The only reason I addressed you is because of your mouth.


          • messenger says:


            To address some of your points. I only write here as a representative of God. Doing so my skimming over or not reading all comments has nothing to do with the value I give some other commenter’s right or ability to express themselves. Even these written articles I skim for time sake.

            I do believe, and I think you really believe it to, that there is a point to saying anything you believe about God or the Bible. The point is that through communication we can learn more about those important subjects.

            If you look closely at that scripture at Genesis (1:14) you’ll see that it doesn’t state God created the luminaries, sun, moon, and stars at that time you suggested it does. What it states is, “let the luminaries be in the expanse.” The expanse was the sky between the divided water on Earth’s surface and that water in the sky. The space between those waters Genesis called heaven. Of course the sun and stars were not physically in that space so close to Earth but instead visually in that space. They could then be seen in it. The exact Hebrew to English words for part of that scripture is,” between divide to the heavens of expanse the in luminaries Let, God said.”

            I believe the Bible states the waters of the flood also, came from springs, and other places not just from the water above Earth’s ground. I believe that’s what I read without looking that up right now. Also, with hurricanes we see much flooding from ocean water today. In an earlier comment I stated scientists believe all the water on Earth once existed above ground, because Earth was too hot for it to stay on the ground.

            We only know about Jesus through the gospels, the Hebrew scriptures, and epistles in an intellectual way. God’s spirit also bears witness to Jesus, meaning God enlightens some people to the truth about Christ. Also, those gospel writers were not willing to give up their lives because they all had the same hallucinations. Today, misguided religionists might do that because of a belief taught to them. The gospel writers believed because of what they saw. There’s a big difference between those two situations.

            There are many scriptures in the Bible that direct people to act in humane ways that protect children. You already know those. As far as protection from sexual child abuse, almost every scripture in the Bible discussing sex does that. The Bible’s mandate on sex is that it is only permitted by God in marriage. God only tells people what to do; it’s up to them whether or not they do it. However, the Bible states God establishes governments to enforce laws that protect children as well as adults. See Romans.

            I don’t know at what age servants of God in ancient Israel were allowed to marry. But I would be skeptical about accepting the idea from a Bible skeptic that God approved the marriage of young children. I’ve read that nowhere in the Bible, which is God’s word, so how would a skeptic know that? Even in our modern society teenagers marry. That’s not considered pedophilia, that’s legal.


            I didn’t make any comment that you should write short comments. That type of thinking is Resister’s bag, not mine. I only stated I don’t read all comments. I skim most, and partially read some of the long ones. But I do the same with the articles, so my practice is not a judgment about the length of your comments.

            Take care

          • Tranquillo says:

            Messenger, you are right, the bible is very silent about the age of wedding for girls. Not even one instance it is said what was the age of any girl or woman in the bible. Still, it is already a starting point to acknowledge that the mosaic law didn’t put any limit. So we know what happens where there is no law. Everybody does as it pleases him. Don’t listen to me, but every historians agrees on the habit of wedding very young girls back then. Read the talmud and see what was the tradition back then. Watch what is the custom still today there.

          • Hi Messenger,

            I appreciate you were asking Resister, however, I hope you won’t mind my response to these items:

            >>1. The definitive proof science has uncovered which, beyond a shadow of doubt, proves its evolutionary theory.<>2. The definitive proof historians have uncovered which proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the Bible book of Daniel was not completed and written at the approximate date listed in most Bibles.<<

            I doubt anyone could reach such a high standard of "beyond a shadow of doubt." That is, any body of evidence will have gaps. Even a video captures data at 30 frames per second. Thus an extreme doubter could argue the record is incomplete.

            In the opening pages of "On The Origin of Species," Charles Darwin laid out the choice before him and us. Are species immutable productions or are they subject to change over time such that it would be possible for so much change to accumulate that one original species would separate into two distinct species unable to breed? Even though his book is long he did not prove this. Actually that is not how scientific theory works.

            What Darwin did was search for evidence that would kill his theory, something that would show evolution wasn't possible. He also postulated what a world driven by evolution by natural selection would look like. When he found nothing that would prove fatal to the theory and found many examples of predictions the theory made that proved true, he concluded, as most scientists do today, the theory must be correct. For example, when an original species begins to split to become two there must be a large period of time where the separation is not complete and interbreeding remains possible. The horse and donkey is an example of this.

            Even in highly precise science like mathematics one does not find it resolves into beyond a shadow of a doubt facts that way people might think. When Perelman solved one of the Millennium Prizes in Geometric Topology there remains a sliver of doubt. It remains possible that something within his proof is wrong.

            The dating of the Book of Daniel orbits around two main items. First would be the oldest copy we can find. An accurate date for such an artifact would demonstrate that Daniel is at least that old. The second item is the content of the book itself. Since Daniel mentions Nebuchadnezzar it means the book could be written anytime after Nebuchadnezzar existed, but the reverse would not be true. Authors cannot write about future events beyond attempts to make predictions. Once an ancient book is written it is also possible for it to be modified and added to. However once the book reaches a certain status, such as holy scripture, and scribes begin to copy it, then the period of possible additions/corrections naturally closes. Thus when scholars bring all this together they wind up at about 167-164 BCE for a completion date.

            But again, this doesn't prove anything. As with many of these things all we can do is pull together as many facts as we can and try and come up with a reasonable conclusion that fits the facts.

            ps. I appreciate this thread is off-topic. I did read the Reclaimed Voices post. My heart goes out to such victims — hard to imagine what such betrayal must feel like.

          • Lynaire Williams says:

            Hi Messenger. Back on this site after a long rest. What do I find but ” it is ” lets diss Messenger time again”. From one ‘ pyschotic’ to another I say, they attack because they fear any other explanation but their own.

          • messenger says:

            Hello Randy,

            Verifiable facts can be proven, or else many processes in the world and our societies could not work. If people and animals could not tell the difference between drinking water and eating dirt they wouldn’t last long. Everyone knows when the sun is out, when it rains etc. So many facts can be verified 100%. Most of the facts we depend on for temporary life are not open to interpretation.

            One biblical fact is that many people claim, or we can say have testified that they were contacted supernaturally, and in some instances shown the future. That’s a fact. Another fact, that you don’t believe that happened does not mean it is not true that such claims were made. Because if so in a similar way it would not be factual that you wrote a comment here. In a similar way it would not be factual anyone has said or written anything. But that’s absurd isn’t it? Everything that happens in the world and elsewhere is factual information and can be labeled truths, not theories. But as Pilot said, What is truth?” In other words what do (some) things mean?

            I do agree that some not all scientific theories are defined through your words. Those theories are not one hundred percent verifiable. Yet some of those theories are accepted by many scientists as factual. We might add, because those explanations and the facts they base those theories on are all those people are willing to accept.

            What your comment states is what I’ve claimed. In some cases scientists and certain historians attempt to explain the truth by reasoning on limited knowledge that is discovered through peer reviewed studies and reasoning. Those men and women cannot prove some types of things you’ve stated like, “Authors cannot write about future events beyond attempts to make predictions.” So they teach that all authors cannot do that. While believing no authors can do that they decide the book of Daniel must have been completed sometime after the last historical figure listed in it. Thanks for your input. That’s what I suspected. Reasoning out the evolutionary theory was done in much the same way.

            I will agree to this. Many Christian teachers among every denomination I’ve heard from, are too dogmatic in their interpretations of the Bible. WT is the most dogmatic I’ve heard from. But others teach dogma also. It’s just that other preachers are not as judgmental in apply their dogma as WT. They are more open to accepting others with different interpretations as long as differing interpretations are not on what they call fundamental Christian teachings.

            With that opinion about Christian teachers and my knowledge of the scriptures I don’t believe Genesis definitively teaches God could not have used evolution when creating organisms. The book says God made organisms according to their kind, but it doesn’t say how he made them. Man from dirt yes. But Earth’s elements are in dirt. And though man is mainly water, water also consists of Earth’s elements. Also, the Bible contains far too much figurative language to reach that conclusion emphatically. Personally I haven’t been convinced of macro-evolution. But as I stated above I don’t believe the Bible’s claim rules it out. I don’t say that to be agreeable but for the reasons I listed.

            The Bible doesn’t claim it was written for all or even any of us to clearly understand every written comment. Sometimes I contemplate the probability that was intentional so that people would argue over its meaning. That style certainly contributes to observations we can make about people’s acceptance of it, even on this site. And this site is a microcosm picturing the book’s acceptance or rejection throughout Earth.

  3. Markie says:

    All the society has to do is to tell people to take the matter to the police. I don’t understand why they just don’t do that. It would then remove the society from the situation and people couldn’t look to the the society for the deep pockets. As mentioned by some disgruntled ex-JW above there are pedofiles in all aspects of society.

    • Monkeyman says:

      Markie, I agree. That WOULD be a VERY intelligent move on the part of the WTBTS. However, one cannot expect STUPID people to do intelligent things.

    • Graham says:

      That was done by elders here in Ireland. They went to the police and they were deleted as elders for doing it.
      So a Simple and honest and protective action was rewarded with punishment.
      This is a fact and proves what the society think about reporting child abuse.

    • messenger says:


      The WT claims it is God directed. As JWs and ex-JWs most should believe the GB and most JWs believe that. Being one it certainly appears that way. The GB are adamant about following the biblical two-witness rule. That rule would prohibit elders from reporting to police in some cases unless there is some other Bible direction WT could justify using to supersede it. If the states made all clergy mandated reporters that might give the WT reason to change that two-witness policy by stating the Bible instructs it to obey superior authorities. But WT still might not, since WT appears to be disregarding mandated reporting laws already existing in some places, as this report shows.

      There unquestionably are other reasons than the two-witness rule that prohibit WT from reporting to secular authorities, for WT does not report when there are two witnesses. Another reason for failing to report probably has to do with reputation. Money might be a third reason. If its failure to report was primarily because of reputation or money, now the situation has blown up on WT, and WT has made a bad situation worse. It is just a matter of time until class action lawsuits are filed against WT which it will not be able to win. The most damaging suits will probably be filed in the USA because here there are the most JWs and an oversupply of lawyers.

      I would advise WT to immediately change its child protection policies. But fiscally WT acts like my government, which goes deeper and deeper into debt, with the current governors evidently believing the next generation after them will have to pay the piper, so, “Let us live it up today, for tomorrow we will die,”

      • Markie says:

        You missed my point or maybe it wasn’t clear. The WTBTS should tell the brothers or sisters to take the matter to the police first. Then if the secular judicial system finds a person guilty of sexual abuse of a minor then df the guilty person. They should not make it a congregational matter. If they did that they couldn’t be held liable for anything.

        • Graham says:

          It won’t make a difference. Here in Ireland the person admitted to the. accusations. He said he did it. No need for two witnesses. He also did it to more than one child in the family so either way that is two witnesses. But still the elders deleted for reporting it. I know of another case where the elder here in Ireland needed to report. They eventually got permission to tell the police but under no circumstances where they to make a statement to the police just report it and nothing in writing signed.
          They just want control. Its fear of losing money. They have to justify why they didn’t report all other abusers before. If they allow you to report it now then they think they are admitting to being wrong not to report others in the past and are open to be sued. It’s all about money

          • outandabout says:

            you’re right on the money there Graham. They won’t change the stance on blood either because of the risk of being sued by furious families who have lost loved ones. Money is king with the Org. followed by it’s survival at all cost, including human life. An evil cult masquerading as something lovely.

          • Sarah says:

            The men in the GB believe that they are going to rule as kings and therefore they can do it now. It in 1 Corinthians. But they forget the instruction in Romans 13:1-5. God’s minister bears the sword, not elders. So the two Irish elders did the right thing and got demoted. I wonder what God thinks of the GB.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Markie, my mum says the GB probably thinks Armageddon will come any moment (or they think it should already have come) and so will save them from having to deal with this issue. Sounds like a reasonable explanation: the 8 monkeys who see no evil, hear no evil and do bugger all about the situation.

    • Ella says:

      This is what finally convinced me that they have some agenda to cover it up and keep it away from the Authorities. You are right, that would be the most simple and most sensible solution. They elders should be instructed to say “tell the police, or we will” it’s very simple. So the reason they won’t do that leave them wide open to all the speculation about sinister reasons. They only have themselves to blame. And I know they use the scripture about ‘not revealing confidential talk’ but that wouldn’t apply if you admitted to an elder you had been watching porn or smoking, you would have two or three other elders on your doorstep in a flash. They don’t keep everything ‘confidential’ just the child abuse stuff. Anyone with any common sense can see that that is sinister.

  4. Honest Counselor says:

    Big changes will come very soon

    “…there is no indication that anyone other than this group (below) will survive through into the New World. That invalidates scripturally, any spurious claims made of alleged appointed or commissioned ownership and oversight of anybody or anything now and in the future:

    Revelation 7:9, 14, 15 (KJV)

    9.After I beheld and, lo, a great multitude, which no man was able to number, of all nations, and kindred, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    14. And I said unto him, Sir, though knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

    Nowhere in the Bible does it describe any self-assumed, self-declared, rulership by succession, presumed “Governing Body” or “Watchtower Society” or any Legal Corporation of self-proclaimed representation standing outwardly from this group. In fact, Zechariah 13:3-6 demonstrates that certain ones will soon cowardly deny the Watchtower Society and even at the highest offices that they once relished in all their glory (John 10:12,13 Matthew 6:5, 12:14 Mark 3:29)…”

  5. Free Thinker says:

    “Much of Watchtower’s advice and training in this matter to elders is … a perfect example of what NOT to do.”

    Duh. What else can one expect from quacks to whom academia and attending any type of Higher Ed is anathema and tantamount to “a lack of humility”, “pride”, “selfishness”, “being greedy for fame and money” and suchlike b..s…? What can one expect from the likes of an AntMo3 whose mind operates in visuals of charred & smelly BBQ-hotdogs, or a LettTheFace who spouts in all earnest “there’s more evidence for 1914 than for electricity, gravity and wind”? Truly, those guys are intellectual non-giants, or – put reversly – non-intellectual giants, or – yet another variation – intellectuals dwarf-dwarfs. A normal person has to exert herself to produce so much crass b…s… as these jokers, but they do it with an astounding ease and facility. No trace of TRUE education, no REAL expertise as regards the humanities and true understanding of human nature. To them, it’s all about “Here are our rules, and you better follow them to a T lest you will be destroyed in Maghardeggon.” To them, everything is binary. That’s all they are able to do. Don’t you expect a butcher to perform brain surgery. Well, those guys are worse than butchers. They’ll perform open-heart-surgery on you with chain saws, and the results are well known the world over. You’ll recognize them by their fruits, and those guys’ fruits are truly disgusting.

  6. outandabout says:

    messenger buddy….Evolution is 99.9% fact. All you have to do is read and absorb the findings. If you want to discredit it you’re going to have to debunk the findings of these independent lines of evidence; Comparative Anatomy, Embryology and Development, Fossil Record, DNA Comparisons, Species Distribution, Evolution Observed, Predictive Power of Evolution, Nested Hierarchies of Traits.
    DNA testing has revealed the closest relative to the whale family is the Hippo and they share characteristics which don’t need pointing out. The interesting thing is the remains or beginnings of rear hip bones, thigh bones and shin bones at the rear of the whale. All just sitting in there with absolutely no use at all. Very bad design!!
    Your mate, Ken Ham likes to tell groups of children that the fossil record is proof of The Flood by telling them that piles of bones is exactly what one would expect to find after The Flood. What?, so there’s only one layer of bones with the remains of elephants, cats, buffalo, mice, etc, etc, even humans who didn’t make it onto the Ark? Well thats not whats shown. What is shown is different layers of fossils occurring at different stages in time and with each layer showing life forms of increasing complexity the closer they get to the surface. Evidence of Evolution at work.
    You are aware that the ancient Greeks had many thoughts and ideas about the Earth and the natural world long before the bible was written, right? Greece was a crossroad for trade from India and China as well so there would have been plenty of ideas floating about and it’s quite probable some ideas made it into Genesis. The Greeks even worked out that the Earth was a globe. They couldn’t exactly prove it, but they had a ‘theory’. Good word that.
    Doesn’t the bible say the Earth hangs on nothing but then later on say it’s held up by enormous pillars? Can’t see the Greeks doing that.
    And so the bible comes along and ‘wraths’ the knowledge away and suppresses the advancement of mankind for centuries. Reason is the Devils Harlot……apparently. Don’t let anybody think and terrorize that belief system into them with example after example of the terrible fate which awaits for not believing. Poor old god couldn’t even work out that you’ll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Looks like he didn’t have the faintest idea about the psychology of his own creation. I guess he had harsh parents.
    Love yer work, buddy.

    • Markie says:

      I luv it….99.9% fact. Lol.

      • outandabout says:

        well, Markie, anyone with sense would never say 100%. Just like those commercials that say ‘kills 99% of all germs’. They don’t say 100% because even though they’re pretty sure all germs will be killed, there’s always that doubt, Smart move.Unlike religion of course which says it’s 100% correct but can’t hold it’s own in a rational debate. With religion it always comes back to having faith, and having faith means believing in something without any evidence.

        • Markie says:

          What a wonderful explanation. You made my morning. I will be laughing all the way to work…….hahaha.

          • Resister says:

            Markie, there are certain medications on the market that may work for you. Be sure to consult a physician first. Your association with watchtower types is starting to take its toll.
            Take care buddy.

          • outandabout says:

            Aww, Markie…..thanks, man!

    • Resister says:

      Hahaha. Yeah, exactly, more flies with honey than vinegar. Sometimes I wonder though. Judging by the numbers of deluded people on this planet we call Earth, it seems one can catch more flies the most common way, with SH@T. lol

      • Markie says:

        Resister, “certain medications” , s that all you can come up with? Please don’t be so childish and try again. And please take care of yourself too little buddy!

    • messenger says:


      Evolution observed is what I would like to see. If cross species evolution is taking place all the time it seems to me with the millions of species we should easily observe new appendages forming on so many species the theory would be evident. It is obvious creatures adapt in form while remaining in the same species.

      Scientists explain and attempt to explain everything based only upon what they see. Therefore, when viewing the similarities you mentioned between species a natural conclusion scientists might reach is that the species are related, and possibly evolved from one another. Related in various ways like being either plant or animal yes, but evolved from one another is only a conclusion based on observed similarities and differences. Scientists don’t factor the idea in that God could have used similar ideas in creating every species on Earth as a means of design which resulted in the reason for the similarities they observe, because they don’t know God. Most scientists hardly even know the Bible and know God even less.

      • outandabout says:

        you obviously haven’t been looking at the facts, messenger, and that coupled with an unwillingness to be wrong. Can’t blame you for that. But hey, the Catholic Church have done us both a favor and done the research for us and reached a conclusion. They’ve declared ‘God is not a magician with a magic wand’. They accept Darwinian evolution, the big bang theory and are down playing the virgin birth. The bible just got a lot thinner. They haven’t ditched God himself or the immortal soul though but hey, religion evolves step by step just like everything else. Can’t go shocking too many people at once but the day will come, probably not in our lifetime, when Jehovah packs his bags and goes to live with Zeus and Apollo.

        Why would the worlds oldest and largest church sign it’s own death warrant? My guess is because they know they’ve done the most harm over the ages and have recently been taken to count over child abuse and have lost a huge amount of followers. They’ve taken a good look at themselves and are tired from the energy it takes to maintain an enormous lie to an educated world and have decided that coming clean now is the only way because the case for evolution gets stronger with each passing day. They’ve fessed up to avoid looking foolish and are taking whatever happens and they know the church won’t collapse overnight because people have their beliefs woven into their lives and people are not going to change their culture overnight and so the Vatican jobs are safe for the foreseeable future. They won’t be around to see the church collapse.

        So what you have to do now is convince yourself that Satan lay down the fossil record which demonstrates long term evolution (macro-evolution) and the changing of species over a hell of a long time just to fool people. To believe micro- evolution but not macro-evolution is the same as believing in a drop of water but not an ocean. Or believing in inches but not a mile. Creatures evolve to changing needs, not just because they can. It’s not an ongoing process just for the hell of it so you won’t see an arm growing out of a fish if it’s not required for it’s survival and if it can’t adapt fast enough when necessary, it dies out. Ninety nine percent of the creatures that ever lived have died out like that.

        So are you with us or are you Amish? Are you going to move forward or are going to die in a group suicide on a mountain top trying to get to a god resident in the tail of a passing comet?

        I know you will take your beliefs to the grave, messenger, but your grandchildren won’t. A new civilization is emerging.

        • messenger says:


          See, this is the deal outandabout. The changes in shapes we know about and can see happening in animals, including humans, don’t slowly occur or occur for the reasons you evolutionists declare those do, by one cell mutating and attaching itself to others, or by some deformed mutations occurring to billions of species that coincidentally all just happened to be advantages to the organisms that were mutated for two reasons:

          First, if that many, and for evolution to occur we are talking about billions upon billions of mutated deformities proving beneficial, then as long as humanity has been observant people would have seen and noted a lot of beneficial mutations occurring in animals. We would all see those and not read about some evolutionary scientists pointing to exceptions that create new species which does not even occur among that believing group. I’m not talking about a new breed of dog, but a new species. The Bible claims God created according to each kind, it does not say what those kinds must look like, or that there would not be adaptions in form. There are enough of us around and enough species where species changing to new species should be evident if it’s happening. The billions of years you reference shouldn’t matter because that argument could be countered since there are billions of possible observers observing billions of subjects, animal creation. If its happening why don’t we see it, that is mutations forming new species?

          Second, for the evolutionary theory to be proven, it is dependent on all species of animals evolving from single cell organisms. It goes on to claim those single cells became multi-cells, and then by themselves began forming body parts such as eyes. But, if that were so, again, with the billions of species on Earth we would see a lot of evidence that new appendages are developing (not developed as wholly mutated parts on creatures as in point #1). But we don’t see those things. An evolutionist pointing to part of a whale’s skeleton being the same shape as a bird’s wing, or human hand just doesn’t make the same point. It instead is inconclusive. But assuming that evolution took place is the only thing atheists have to work with when attempting to account for what they see.

          The statements about what the Catholic church believes don’t hold any water with me. Its beliefs are not my beliefs. To me that is kind of like someone backing up their point by saying Tony Morris said it.

          Take care buddy.

        • messenger says:

          As regards your reference to the fossil record. I’m sure your research shows that according to scientists that record is fragmented.

          A quote from reads, “confounded by a fossil record that only offers fragmented look at the ancient past.” In other words scientists believe there are gaps in the fossil records they believe prove evolution.

  7. Donald J. says:

    The watchtower is being fined $4000 a day for refusing to disclose legally sensitive information related to child abuse. Then they make videos urging children to donate their ice cream money.
    That’s an awful lot of ice cream.

  8. John Butler says:

    Wow, at last. Yes, the first five paragraphs summed up the earthwide situation. That is what i like to see. If only that was on every billboard earthwide.

    However, I was slightly disappointed with the slyness of the hinting about other beliefs within JW Org. Maybe it had to be mentioned, maybe not. Talking about Reclaimed Voices. Quote : Raymond was raised in the religion whereas Aswin joined when she was 24 years old. Raymond moved up the ranks of the faith, eventually serving as an elder, however he ultimately left due to irreconcilable differences. He was gay, something the religion does not allow, and this led to his questioning of the religion. Since leaving he has obtained training in practical theology and a degree in religious studies. End Quote. If Raymond was ‘raised in the religion’ he would have known from the very beginning that homosexuality was disgusting in God’s eyes and was therefore not allowed within JW Org. He would not have wanted to become an elder as it would have gone completely against what he himself believed to be right. So it seems his ‘working his way up to elder’ was only so that he could challenge God directly….
    You need to remember that the JW’s don’t put the scriptures in there, they just obey what those scriptures say. So it was a challenge against God’s word, not against the Org’s beliefs.

    Then we have Aswin. Quote: Aswin left the religion when she was 36. She studied theology and later got a degree in practical theology which included extensive training in pastoral care. End quote… So she joined at 24, stayed 12 years, then left at 36… She would have learnt in the first year that God does not use females in the same way as He uses males. Once again Bible instruction not JW belief. So why would she stay for twelve years ? Trying to argue with God ?

    I can understand why this man and this woman get along so well, they both disagree with God and try to change God’s viewpoint on things. It quite clearly shows they are anti-JW Org / Watchtower even though they hide behind this pretence of saying they are not trying to turn people away form the Org.

    What that means to me is this. I will read their articles, but unless they can provide complete proof of what they say, i will not be greatly impressed by their offerings.

    • outandabout says:

      John, you’ve pointed out that following God’s word is what’s required and thats all the JW’s are doing so nothing is really their fault? So if all they’re doing is following god’s word, why are they in such a mess for doing so? What does that say about gods word?

    • Resister says:

      John, no comments regarding cult indoctrination, elitist manipulation, the practice of shunning, “biblical” refusal of blood transfusions, or child abuse?

    • Tranquillo says:

      Hi John, it is very sad to hear attributing motives and reasons to someone. Always bad motives obviously. Nobody knowns the kind of suffering and trials they went through. Can you imagine Raymond trying to suppress his feelings and his desires for so many years? Trying to please God nothwithstanding his being gay?

    • Ricardo says:

      Hello again John. I have a suggestion for you: why not start up a charity to offer counseling for victims of child abuse in our organization? You seem to be quite critical of these two people, yet they are trying to help. That’s something you are not doing. I doubt that you are even willing to admit that child sex abuse is rampant in the congregations.

  9. outandabout says:

    Hey , guy’s, messenger is ok. He has some worthwhile comments at times and he makes the place interesting.

  10. Resister says:

    The ‘Watchtower”s physical infrastructure my still stand, but its mystique has long crumbled and turned to dust.

  11. Resister says:


    If Watchturd’s child abuse policies are just “incompetence”, then explain to me why the Hell they don’t at THE VERY LEAST warn the respective congregation when they have a PREDATOR in their midst???!!! That’s got nothing to do with competence or incompetence. It’s basic common sense and human decency. Ella is right. It IS sinister.

  12. Resister says:


    Too bad you deleted your first comment. I would have enjoyed it.
    PS I can’t wait to meet Christ. Then I can tell him what I think of him as well.

    • messenger says:

      Sure Resister. We all could tell what you’d like to read and hear from the types of comments you choose to make (beyond bordering on foul) simply by observing that mouth. We all think like you at times. But we differ in that most of us have learned self control as we grew out of infancy. That’s assuming you haven’t and that your disposition, and your self control are not both inherently gross.

      But the gist of that comment you wish to read that I canceled stated I did not believe you have enough ability in yourself to accept my challenge. It stated that my belief is if you thought you had adequate ability you would have accepted it, and that your comments about my being way off topic are an excuse, a diversion to saying, ‘I choose not to accept the challenge.’ It’s okay to say no. And, no need to feel inferior; all people are important to God or they wouldn’t be here.

  13. Resister says:

    I think one of the major defects in Crotchtower’s leadership is a mental disease that seems to be prevalent today: MONEY ADDICTION.

  14. outandabout says:

    Hey, Ted, if you’re listening. You recently mentioned getting under your wife’s feet ha ha……retirement can be a bit of a shock for the wife…..twice as much husband and half as much money. Here’s a bit of advice you might like – if your wife ever says you can do exactly as you please, DO NOT under any circumstances do exactly as you please!

    • Resister says:

      …or don’t get married at all! Hahaha
      PS why the hell are jehovas witnesses STILL getting married and raising families. I thought The End was coming. A very confusing bunch. Or should I say, a very CONFUSED bunch.

    • Ted says:

      Good advice outandabout, the trick is trying to
      convince her that what you want is really her idea,
      Who am I kidding ! She Sussed that one out the first
      week of marriage.

      But seriously, if you get a goodun the upside far
      compensates for any downsides. If she had have been
      gullible the elders would have split us up years ago.

      I woke up first and they tried to persuade her to leave me
      saying I would shipwreck her faith, she told them her
      marriage vows were also sacred. she never liked the
      elder arrangement and always stood up to them if she
      thought they were in the wrong.–

      Consequently when I resigned she was treated coolly
      by elders and even some others in the cong, it helped
      her to see the “The thin veneer of love” that exists in
      the religion. ( the above apt expression I borrowed from
      Lloyds book, ). Anyway this our 64th year since being
      spliced, which speaks for itself doesn’t it?

  15. Resister says:

    “Lead, Follow, or Get outta the way!”
    Good advice.

  16. Donald J. says:

    The Watchtower’s hold on their sheep is based on the Genesis account, where Adam and Eve sin (original sin), blah blah blah, requiring mankind to be “saved” by a special messiah, blah, blah, blah. But the Genesis account has been debunked many, many times by countless experts, as evolution has been proven to be 100 percent factual.

    • Ricardo says:

      So evolution is no longer a theory? Are you on the same planet as the rest of us? Never once have I heard of the law of evolution.

  17. outandabout says:

    messenger…..those gaps you mention may never be filled completely but new fossils are being found all the time and enough have been found already to form an undeniable picture. Enough of a picture to convince the Catholics and now you say your beliefs don’t align with theirs? So when they say god is not a magician and out the window go miracles and prayers they’re not throwing your beliefs away? Along with Genesis.

    Genesis says Man was made from a handful of dirt which is not too bad considering the earth has a lot of elements in it. But what the bible says next blows the whole thing apart. They say woman was made from a piece of rib and they had to say that because the bible is a misogynistic document and to say woman also was made out of the dirt would be to make her equal to man. Can’t be having that! The handful of dirt part sounds like Greek reasoning to me and the rib part is bible writers attempting to impose their thoughts.You have to remember those Greeks were smart and observant and worked out the world was round and mapped the cosmos, etc. Some of those idea’s would have made it into the bible and the bible claims they own them.

    The trouble with your belief system, messenger, is that it won’t allow to to think back beyond creation. Remember how we grew up hearing we descended from the great apes? That was before dna testing. We now know that mankind originated in Africa and guess where the great apes live. Guess who our nearest cousins are. The gaps get filled and the process will never stop. DNA testing shows the only pure race are the sub-Saharan and everyone else has a mixture of neanderthal and denisovan. So god must have been black and the garden of Eden in the deepest darkest Africa?

    • messenger says:

      If the dog breeds Great Dane and Chihuahua were not in our historical records, and if those breeds went extinct only to leave fossil records of their existence to be found several thousand years from now evolutionists could declare those were different species with one evolving from the other. But we know they are not. And yet that’s what paleontologists do with very old fossils they find.

      I read some time ago on one site that in Christ’s day the average height of men in the Palestine the area was 5 ft 2 inches. That’s not their average height now. Would they be considered the same species thousands of years from now if historical records didn’t refute that, that is if the new world didn’t arrive by then?

      Although many of you evolutionists are quick to sling the mud name by calling your opponents you are stinkers not thinkers bowing down to the scientists you hold to be superior in mentality to your mentality, a probable reason only outandabout even attempts to provide any evidence to make his points. It’s too easy to research things today, the fact that you have not offered comments based on research says a lot. Stinkers not thinkers. I’ve taught a lot like you. Too lazy to do the work, or is it you are uncomfortable with your ability to? Easier to curse or insult than to offer a logical thought. Easier to bow down to a status quo and reiterate its thoughts than reasoning your own beliefs whether accepting theirs through reason or not.

      But to outandabout, the evolutionary scientists have no other explanation to explain their belief, it’s not that the evidence proves it. It’s just they have no other way to justify what they can see. You know if they had the proof that of species becoming other species, and new eyeballs developing in new places on animals then we’d not only hear that now we’d see it now. The Earth then would exist as a sci-fi movie. But it doesn’t because species cannot cross bread or shape shift into other species. There are far too many species to observe to prove that’s happened before rather than use a time excuse. If there were only a dozen species that time excuse might work, but there isn’t. If that happened before it would be happening right now to some of the billion species on Earth. The reason they concentrate on the past instead of the present is that they have no proof.

      • messenger says:

        couple mistakes

        bread to breed last paragraph

        sling the mud name by calling -to sling the mud by name calling 3rd par.

      • outandabout says:

        It’s a complex subject, messenger and really, nobody here is an expert, but, why has the Catholic church accepted evolution? How many people did they hire to investigate it thoroughly and for how long? Why would they risk suicide on a hunch? They know, man! They obviously know more than you or I.

    • messenger says:


      A major problem with the gaps outandabout is that there are not only gaps in fossil formations between one wholly formed species leading to another, but there aren’t fossils of organisms with partially formed organs found in the fossil record. The evolutionary theory teaches these new species developed gradually from the older species over long periods of time. If so, considering the billions upon billions of deceased and ancient organisms we should see some fossils with partially developed body parts. And partially developed body parts would not serve the purpose of those fully developed parts time is thought by evolutionists to have turned those in to. Those deformed (partial) body parts would be detriments to many organisms, not advantages to them. Since a partially developed part would be disadvantages and certainly served no purpose, there is no logical reason natural selection would occur with such organisms, unless of course God was behind the process to keep it working until the formations were completed. And yet many evolutionists don’t believe in God. They account for natural selection completing those processes. The idea is illogical on its face. There’s nothing to look up , just think about what’s being claimed. Natural selection theory claims a survival for the fittest. Partial formed organs on billions of organisms would not produce the fittest members (and most of the time it would produce the unfit), so there would be no reason for natural selection to select those organisms. That problem is compounded by the fact fossils do not show partially formed organisms to prove there were such, but only whole organisms are represented in the fossil records. So, similar to the argument that we see no partially formed organs on animals now, we don’t see those represented in the fossil records either. Yet if macro evolution occurred fossils representing partially formed organs on thousands of animals should exists. But they don’t. But if we can find those as you speculate we might, the question is still there why would natural selection select organisms that have no advantage?

  18. Donald J. says:

    Science has mapped creation all the way back to the Big Bang. There are many gaps and mysteries yet to be figured out because we are dealing with forces almost beyond our comprehension, yet all the existing evidence points to the fact that the universe began in a cataclysmic explosion originating from an infinitely dense concentrate of matter.

    • Ricardo says:

      And the matter came from…? From nothing? Is that the law of evolution- actual matter coming into being from nothing? It must be interesting to prove that! Something from nothing.

      • outandabout says:

        but, Ricardo……god came from nothing? So it’s all a question of examining the facts. Thats all. Nothing more. It’s not the job of science to disprove god. Science has much higher goals than that and god just gets caught up in it.

        • Ricardo says:

          Only nothing can come from nothing. Everything else converts from one thing to another; from one type of energy to another, or to matter. Remember Newton’s laws of thermodynamics: energy can neither be created or destroyed. So, something has always been here. Whatever that something was at the very beginning, it displayed incredible intelligence and some of us call it God.

          I can’t see the problem.

          But I see a problem in believing that at the beginning a mass of matter appeared out of nothing, and by going kaboom eventually led to us being here, and then wanting to call this unverifiable unrepeatable phenomena a law rather than a theory.

          • Donald J. says:

            Ricardo, I believe you are referring to the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy.
            It is better to have your facts straight when you are trying to sound like a scientist.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Donald, at school I was taught this law as being one of Newton’s laws of Thermodynamics. So I Googled ‘Newton’s laws of Thermodynamics ‘ and Google told me it’s Newton’s First Law of Thermodynamics. How about that. It’s still called the same as when I was at school.

            And it is a Law. It is verifiable, replicable and able to be proved It is based on scientific fact. Unlike your Law of Evolution. Maybe you need to be more scientific, rather than coming up with hairbrained ‘Laws’.

  19. outandabout says:

    I see the possibility of the Catholic church emerging with a new kinder and gentler god to suit a new world which will have a better understanding of life, the universe and everything. They have a business to run, can read the writing on the wall and have taken the initiative. The days of wrath, plaques, destruction and death for not believing are seriously numbered.

    • Resister says:


    • Chiafade says:

      Totally agree. By the way I’m still waiting to read a direct condemnation of pedophilia in the bible from the bible thumpers on here. All I saw was a vague “well the Bible is silent on that”. Which is a very watchtoweresque answer from someone claiming to be an exjw —>messenger

      • outandabout says:

        I’ll have a go at answering that, Chiafade and I’m perfectly willing to be wrong. To understand why the bible is silent on pedophilia we have to reflect on what everyday life was like back.In short, there was no such thing as child abuse or pedophilia because woman and children were considered chattels with little or no voice. Life was what we today would call Third World. Forget those WT depictions of clean, well fed and happy first century individuals. Life was an illiterate, poor, ignorant and disease ridden bitch with every thought and action geared towards gathering enough food to survive the winter and any child complaining of a wrong was just a nuisance and probably knew better than to complain or accuse an adult of anything at all. The writers of the bible simply could not envisage any change in the world at all because it had hardly changed for centuries and their writings are directed at the attitudes and norms of the day. None of it works now.

        Every thought action of every living thing on earth is connected to survival and the rearing of successful offspring. The perpetuation of the species.
        Let’s just look at the much maligned trait called greed – I’ll use squirrels as an example. In order to survive the winter, they need to gather as many nuts as possible. Those squirrels who gather the most nuts are more likely to survive a harsh winter than those who didn’t and also will be able to mate and pass their nut gathering abilities onto their offspring. Same with humans. Making enough money is a survival instinct and makes us able to weather the bad times. Some humans excel while others struggle but most are in the mid range of ability.

        Racism – imagine ancient man sitting around with the tribe and a stranger who is obviously not one of them appears. Is he a loner in need or is he a scout for a larger group sent in to check out defenses. A tribe that welcomes the stranger in without caution and gets slaughtered will not survive and so there genes don’t get passed on. A suspicious (racist) tribe will be careful and will have their guard up until they’re sure of the strangers intentions and so they survive and pass on the survival instinct. In a modern world we are learning to override that instinct, but it’s hard.

        There’s plenty more but I’ve said enough.

      • tranquillo says:

        by the way, it would be interesting to really discover about the translation of girl in Hebrew, as it seems more likely child or litte girl.
        Said by Mauro Biglino, who translated from Hebrew for the Vatican biblical press for 17 years…

  20. Awake! says:

    It is true. The Big Bang and evolution are scientific facts. Those that believe in the bible’s account of creation are snowflakes who lack thinking ability. Their belief system is based on emotion rather than logic.

    The bible’s stories are nonbelievable. No physical evidence has ever been produced to corroborate the myth that 2 million individuals wandered the Sinai wilderness for 40 years.

    • messenger says:

      In the future before making such an ignorant comment you might check to see who disagrees with you, since those disagreeing (scientists) are the same people you support. The comment is illogical because many of those that teach the theories you believe in, with some of those people possibly contributing to those ideas through their research do not agree with your conclusion about God. So, are you accepting theories from those you call snowflakes? What does that make you?

      Ecklund is a professor of sociology at Rice University. She conducted a detailed survey of over 1600 faculty members at research universities and found the following results. The survey consisted of 36 questions that allowed her to break down the numbers. For example, she found that:

      •38% of natural scientists (e.g. physics, chemistry, biology etc.) are atheists.
      •31% of social scientists are atheists.

      From Elaine Ecklund’s book Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really Think.

      In her study 28% of those 1600 scientists believe in God with an even larger percentage not knowing if God exists. She conducted her research at elite research universities.

      In my experience at a university I’ve only heard one teacher express nonbelief in God while several professors I know belong to Christian religious churches, with some of those having worked inside their religious group.

      A second reason your comment does not make sense is because the Big Bang scientific theory supports the Genesis account of creation; it doesn’t refute it. The older steady state theory believed until the 1950s is a theory that refuted Genesis. But that one was proved wrong by scientists showing the universe had a beginning and came from one source as the Genesis account claims it did.

      • Awake! says:


        This bickering is pointless. Let’s just agree that evolution is a fact except in your case.

      • Donald J. says:

        Messenger, you need to get your facts straight. You simply do not possess an analytical mind. I don’t say that out of spite, it’s simply a conclusion I have reached by reading your comments. I myself possess degrees in physics and quantum mechanics. My knowledge is based on instruction, research, and actual experimentation. How many experiments have you performed? Messenger, you should stick to what you know. You seem to be some sort of theologian. You should stick to that pursuit. Do not presume to profess on scientific matters.

        • Resister says:

          Agreed, Donald. Valid points.
          The “snowflakes” are melting in the heat of Truth. 😉

        • Resister says:

          PS messenger is, as usual, a day late & a dollar short.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Donald, it is very brave of you to mock Messenger when you yourself believe twisted things like : a whole lot of concentrated matter which came into being from nothing suddenly went Boom! and millions of years later here we are! Let’s call that extremely unscientific theory (which does not follow scientific rules and is neither verifiable, replicable or proveable) the law of evolution.

          Just makes you look foolish.

        • messenger says:

          Donald J,

          Every thing I’ve written was either facts that can easily be proven through simple research on the net, or how I believe those facts are logically interpreted. You on the other hand share no facts or even suggest which of my facts are wrong except that you went to college and did some research. I don’t think anyone forming decisions about these topics care about credentials. Facts that you haven’t shared are the only important things in making logical not emotional arguments. Come on, I like to point out WT tactics and that’s its biggest (don’t the GB claim they’re anointed; you’re not, just the other sheep; they are directed by God; so you’d better listen to them?). That’s what you imply by only listing those credentials you feel give you clout.

          The comment you responded to are statistics taken from a study published in a book. If that’s not true then prove it’s not. The study is primarily one of statistical facts taken from a sociologist’s study-yes she does research too. And in my closing remark I stated that the Big Bang scientific theory teaches the universe had a beginning originating from a single source. That’s what Genesis teaches. I will be surprised if you fail to believe in the Big Bang, or you believe it does not teach the universe had a beginning originating from a single source.

          I know the idea of a God creator can sound far fetched. Fortunately he has provided proof of his existence. Your belief that some mass of cells devised on their own to developed eyeballs and in that process also to modify their DNA to include eyeballs for future generations is just as far fetched as a God creator. So, before you infer someone is stupid contemplate your own belief. According to scripture your belief these blobs of cells decided on their own to create eyeballs, feet, wings, modified DNA is so stupid that the Bible exclaims you know God but instead decide to worship the eyeball because according to you that blob of cells created the eyeball. Wonder how those intelligent cells did that? Seems that have to be much more intelligent than you to pull that off. (Romans 1:18-23).

          Again rather than state your credentials prove your points, if you can. Nicholas Copernicus, Isaac Newton (who wrote a million words of Bible commentary), Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal (who had a religious vision of God, which turned the direction of his study from science to theology publishing several religious books), Gregor Mendel, William Thomson Kelvin, Max Planck (1858-1947) best known for quantum theory was a devote believer in God as were all the above famous scientists, along with many more I haven’t listed.

          So Light Bulb, what are your credentials again? Really who cares, if you cannot list any more than credentials really what good are you? I’ve had many professions, my current is teaching, and your comments aren’t that.

          • Donald J. says:

            Messenger, thank you for proving my point that you do not possess an analytical mind. Once again, you have jumped to an emotional conclusion. I never made the assertion that God does not exist. Simply that the BIBLE god does not exist, and the bible account of creation is bogus. The BIg Bang and God are not mutually exclusive.

          • Resister says:

            Donald, save your breath. Messenger just loves spewing out meaningless data.

      • Tranquillo says:

        Messenger, I acknowledge that you prefer indulging in discussions about creation versus evolution. The point raised about the bible / God legalizing pedophilia doesn’t seem to suit your tastes. Consensus among CHRISTIAN APOLOGISTS is that the minimum age was 12 years. So this seems to be the most optimistic guess, which to us seems simply horrible. On the other hand, if you read something of the vast Hebrew literature and the words of influent rabbis, the minimum age may be as low as three years.

        • messenger says:

          It’s not that prefer indulging in discussions about creation vs evolution. I answered you already on your topic, and you acknowledged then that the age a person allowed to get married in biblical times is not listed in the scripture. But why is it that it interests you since it is not listed? You either are, or were once a JW, so I can guess you’ve read many scriptures that speak of a biblical wife or husband. None of those scriptures imply those were kids. Every scripture you ever read implies they are both grown with abilities to take care of themselves, care for a household, and care for their own children. ( See a capable wife in proverbs, and Paul’s advice at 1 Corinthians 7:36 and 37 as two examples among many).

          What do expect a commentator whose goal is to debunk God to write, favorable speculations or unfavorable ones? If you would expect unfavorable ones why do you read those?

          • tranquillo says:

            messenger, now you are providing some arguments in favour of the Bible, however thin. You forget to mention Ezekiel 16 which although being a parable also mentions a girl reaching the puberty.
            the point is, under this respect I just can’t see any difference between the Bible and the Koran.

          • tranquillo says:

            by the way, I wanted to thank you for your kind answer.
            My goal is not to debunk the Bible, but to understand. So you are providing good material and your point of view is appreciated altough not shared.

  21. Keiran says:

    The Watchtower Society is an extremely corrupt organization.

    They take the best years of your life,
    And then they try to steal your wife.

  22. Cynthia Jane Loren says:

    Thank you for posting this article. While I’m sad and disturbed by Watchtower’s actions and the way they portray themselves to the public, I’m glad there are brave individuals speaking up. I want to help as well. I’ve been there…it is very hard. Watchtower is an abusive organization.

    • Ricardo says:

      And so say we all.

      • Donald J. says:

        Then why are you still in?

        • Donald J. says:

          If you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Donald, I am still in because I am not you. I have the freedom to choose what I do. I don’t need to get out just because Donald tells me I should or because Donald thinks I am part of the problem.

            Interestingly, the elders tell me I am part of the problem, and would love to see me leave.

            Donald, are you an elder?

          • Donald J. says:

            Ricardo, are you crazy?

          • Ricardo says:

            @Donald, certainly not. I am serious. The qualities you have displayed in your comments read like a CV for an elder: arrogant, condescending, conceited, insensitive, insulting, rude and deaf to a dissenting voice. All the elders I have met over the years have been like this. With an attitude like yours, you should rise up the ranks quickly.

            If you pretend you are anointed you could easily make it into the GB itself. After watching Tony Morris in Trinidad where he criticized almost the whole audience for not being good enough, I can see that you would be a perfect match.

  23. Markie says:

    Out and About says that evolution is 99.9% fact yet Donald J says its 100% factual. Out and about says that no scientist is 100% certain of anything. But Donald J who claims to “possess degrees in physics and quantum mechanics” says there are gaps in our understanding but evolution is fact. For some reason, I find it hard to believe that Donald has degrees in anything in light of how you responded to Messenger. Especially too that Donald J is a disgruntled x-jw where higher education was frowned upon.

    Resister is just a spout tripe and should be ignored.

  24. Graham says:

    We just returned from an assembly. Our CO has been asking everyone to offer a bible study on his visits. He announced at the assembly that we have started 300 new studies. This is a lie. They have offered 300 studies and people have offered. Very few have developed. It’s all about numbers (fake numbers)
    Then the WT keeps talking about baptism and suggesting Preteens or someone who was 12 when she was baptized. All about numbers not true dedication. Jesus a perfect man waited until he was 30. Why would anyone let a child make this choice ? We can’t drive or drink until we are older. Surely a dedication is a bigger choice and more important than driving. Yet they are pushing for Young’s ones. This is just again for numbers.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Graham, well done. You are awakened. But be careful. If you say this to too many brothers the elders are going to toss you out.

      A switched on CO told me not to pressure my son to get baptized young. Let him be an adult and choose, he said.

      The fact that when we got baptized ourselves, no explanation was given about the many reasons we could be d’fed. That makes baptism a trap. Once you’re in, you better toe the line or you will lose your family and friends forever.

      I hope my son never gets baptized as long as the organization stays the way it is. As an unbaptized publisher, he has a degree of safety.

      • Morris says:

        I truly appreciate your comments Ricardo. I connect with current members to workout and we discuss many things and some of these members are ex-elders and nice to be able to talk about anything in a respectful manner. Things like aren’t we glad that worldly people donate blood that can be fractioned for our use. Why are women allowed to be part of the 144k when women are in subjection to men and when kings and priests are to rule with Jesus. The whole shunning thing when the Bible does talk about removing the wicked one from among you. Who said they are all wicked. Too many literal interpretations without looking at the context. Brothers who expect free help last minute and look down when you can’t drop everything. I pray daily asking Jehovah to stop having the organization make a mockery of him.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Morris, there must be many of us worldwide with the same prayer. I often wonder what is going to happen. I used to be so active in the truth, now I just hope WT goes bankrupt. I am so disappointed with this org. Nothing makes sense anymore.

          What do you think will happen? What will God do?

          • Morris says:

            What do I think will happen. Lets see. Within the next 5 years (we see this now and even brought up by our CO a few weeks back) is attendance diminishing considerably. No one is reaching out and young ones don’t want to reach out. I can see 8+ million become 4+ million. I can see the push for more and more funds with specific talks about specific dollars needed when we said we would never solicit money. The GB can play this in many ways. If there is a diminish in numbers they will use this to their advantage and show how Satan is succeeding even within the congregation. If the GB are jailed due to fraud (maybe sexual harassment in some form) the society will pull a Swaggart move and say how Satan even gets the best of us.

            In 10 years I see JW banned in the US and Europe due to being seen as extremists.

            I currently attend meetings (most Sundays and 1-2 mid week) and 1 Sat a month. I do the minimum as I have some great great friends in the organization and want to keep those friendships.

            I used to be out every Sat and at all the meetings (former MS) and always had congregation gatherings at the house (we have a nice place with a lot of land and well off) and paid for everything. A new CO cleaned house and had a few elders on his side and they removed several elders and servants to remove those they felt weren’t just saying ‘how high’ when they said ‘jump’ It left a bitter taste in our mouths but it happened at a good time when I was going to step down anyways.

            In the end, I am happy, don’t have the need to be an MS as my new hall wants me to reach out but I nicely refuse sighting past experiences. I don’t donate a cent and pose questions which no one seems to have answers for but do so in a way to learn and not seem like a rebel.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Morris, I hope your prediction is correct. It puts a smile on my face.

          • Big B says:

            @ Ricardo and Morris;

            Ditto to both of you Ricardo and Morris. I agree with your observations, this certainly is not the same organization I became involved with back in 1957-58. That being said, I would like to add a couple of predictions of my own. My two cents, for what it’s worth.

            As the Watchtower Society loses more and more membership through natural attrition (death and old age) and continued abandonment of this cult by their youthful members, a consolidation of congregations will be necessary as more Kingdom Halls will have to be sold due to the negative impacts (of adverse
            judgements) due to an abject failure to change their child protection policies.

            Older ones will be unable to travel, during the evening hours, putting further burdens on working members to act as a chauffeuring service. Midweek meeting attendance, due to secular employment schedules, will put pressure on the friends to travel long distances after chauffeuring around older friends. Meeting times will invariably be modified into two time slots; one during the afternoon for the elderly and one during the evening for everyone else. The elderly, retired ones will be segregated from the rest of the congregation, by necessity, until they pass away.

            Meanwhile, as congregations grow smaller in size and Kingdom Halls are sold off, you will see more downsizing and the return to small meetings in private homes similar to the book study arrangement or the renting of storefront spaces with no property investment at all. Thus the “commercial” design look for newer Halls; they are easily converted into doctors clinics, dental offices or other similar business/ commercial uses.

            The assembly halls will be the last properties sold, as membership continues to decline, as they are the only places that will be left to hold large circuit conventions. By this time communities will not be forthcoming to holding conventions for “pedophile protectors” in their communities thus spelling the end of the big district, or international conventions at large venues. They just won’t rent facilities to Jehovah’s Witnesses period!

            Before long I predict another “doomsday” prophetic message acting as an attempted revival of preaching activity and a stopgap attempt at preventing further hemorrhaging of their adherents. Will the date 2033, the 2000th anniversary year of Christ’s death and resurrection, be the catalyst for this pronouncement or will that year come and go like 1975 with more discouragement, more disappointment, and even more abandonment of the cult? Only time will tell.

  25. outandabout says:

    The Pew research center has a list of religious groups who approve of evolution; Buddhism, Catholicism, Mormons, Episcopal Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, Hinduism, Islam (although divided), Judaism, Presbyterian Church (USA), United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church. I’m pretty sure the Church of England is the same.

  26. outandabout says:

    I’ve been nosing about looking at ancient Greek thoughts and discoveries. I haven’t the time nor inclination to research thoroughly but very quickly notice two Greek discoveries that the bible claim as it’s own and originate from God. One is the law of reflection discovered by Euclid about 300BC and the other is discovering the Earth is a sphere. They also had numerous other uncannily near accurate ideas, most of it through simple observation. They also proposed the existence of atoms, also claimed by the bible.
    I smell a rat. A great big plagiarizing one. I also smell millions of naive people believing in something for the sole purpose of cheating the natural process of death. It all comes down to the age old fear of death. Bottom line.

    • Resister says:

      Once again, nice points, outandabout.
      Be careful not to get sucked in to deep by some of these folks.
      PS Have you noticed how a few trolls commenting here are busting a nut trying to protect the Pedophile’s Paradise? Wonder why.

  27. Donald J. says:

    Markie, you seem to excel at jumping to emotional conclusions, like your friend messenger. What in the world led you to believe that I am a “disgruntled x-jw”??? Are NON-jw’s not capable of using the Internet and posting their opinions? You came to the conclusion that I must be a disgruntled ex-jw, based on no facts, no evidence, no proof whatsoever. And you expect me to believe in your ideas of the origin of the Universe. You and your ilk are a joke. You so desperately attempt to come off sounding like educated intellectuals, but it just ends up sounding like Monkey See, Monkey Do. You too should stick to what you know, whatever that is, instead of barking orders as to whom to ignore and whom not to ignore. By the way, I am touched that you were upset by my response to messenger. You two must be very close. I hope you are very happy together.

    • Markie says:

      Sorry but I think you do a much better job then me jumping to emotional conclusions. Why would you assume I want you to believe what I believe? I do not care at all what you believe.

      Why would you assume that I am attempting to sound educated. I am educated. I don’t care if I sound like I am or not.

      Why would you emotionally jump to the conclusion I know messenger, or that I am upset by your response to him?

      I just don’t think your who you say you are. You were calling out messenger but I think your a fake.

      Barking out orders? Where did that come from?

      Lighten up dude!

      • Donald J. says:

        There you are, giving orders again. Markie, if you do not care at all what I believe, why do you keep pushing your beliefs? Why are you even on this site? You contribute nothing of value. Creationists, evolutionists, all pretty much have their minds made up. You’re not going to change anyone’s mind, and neither am I. Are YOU trying to protect the “pedophiles’ paradise”, and if so, why?

        • Markie says:

          Donny J, you sound so angry but I must say I have no idea where you are getting the notion that I am pushing my beliefs or that I am protecting pedos. Nonsensical emotional response on your part perhaps?

          Why would you be on this site if your not a disgruntled ex-jw? Why would you waste your time?

          You make no sense.

          Have a nice life.

          • Donald J. says:

            You think fighting cultism and curbing child rape are a “waste of time”? You’re quite the degenerate, aren’t you? You know, a little evolution wouldn’t do you any harm. Either that, or medication, as I believe has already been suggested. It may take the professionals a while to find the right cocktail for you, but hang in there. At least it may pull you out of your dead-chicken-waving, naked-dancing-around-an-open-fire mindset. In the meanwhile, consider taking up a position in the Trump administration. You could be Lord Trump’s Christian Advisor now that Billy Graham has passed on. You would most certainly thrill at the opportunity to preach and teach everyone about the garden of eden, complete with talking snake and all. Then you could go straight into your dead-chicken-waving ritual. It would be good for you. You really need to get out more.

      • messenger says:


        Remember how when we were in public school the bullies were always students that were academically inferior? Very rarely, if at any time, did we view a bully that achieved academically.

        Also, think about what it takes for addicted people to change their addictive behavior. They have to want to. We cannot change them. Therefore, they might not change it; and that’s one fundamental reason why God, in his on time, will wipe them out.

        Take care Markie

  28. Resister says:

    I get a kick out of the pedophiles who comment on this site. They think we’re all imbeciles who just fell off the turnip truck.

  29. Resister says:

    messenger takes pride in questioning others’ credentials, and claims that he has had “many professions”. He doesn’t realize that peeling bananas with your feet and being a bullsh*t artist don’t qualify as professions.

  30. Ricardo says:

    I have been contributing to comments here for the past year and have always been impressed by the level of respect shown to one another. Although we may not agree, we have seemed to be able to politely agree to disagree. This has given this site a level of decorum. Rarely would I or others insult one another or excessively stir up another, although in the heat of expressing ourselves this did happen.

    No doubt we can have strong opinions about evolution or creation, but being of scientific basis surely observable facts should not lead to an excessive outpouring of emotion that gives way to insults and calling into question someone’s education.

    Likewise, we all are disgusted by child sex abuse, and many JW’s like myself have expressed their disgust at what is happening in our organization here in the comments, at the meetings in our comments, and in personal conversation with witness friends and family, elders, CO’s, and goodness me I even presented Steven Lett of the GB with a poster asking him to pity the little children and change Watchtower policy. So, yes, many of us have strong feelings about the abuse in the org.

    Let us keep some level of decorum in our comments, hey, guys.

    • Peter Dobbs says:

      was just about to suggest the same thing, Ricardo. I know a few JW’s and they’re all nice people from a nice congregation with nice elders, no abuse or anything and can’t understand what all the flak is about. No doubt there are plenty more like them. It’s not the people I don’t like and I view them as victims of extreme belief.

      • Ricardo says:

        @Peter, let’s not go to the other extreme. I mean, putting the word ‘nice’ in front of the word ‘elder’ is just going to set some people off. It is provocative. I agree that the rank-and-file are very nice people (as long as you don’t talk about controversial topics like child sex abuse in the org). But never have I found a nice elder. Please tell me in which congregation I can find such an elder and I will move to it; such an elder who has been able to go against the prevailing culture of bullying by the leadership surrounding him is certainly my hero.

        ALL the elders I have had anything to do with have been abusive mongrels.

        • tranquillo says:

          in my case the elders have been nice enough over the years. not very helpful but at least almost harmless. they were more of the let it be kind.
          of course as I was openly moving to disassociation there was no point in bullying me…

          • Ricardo says:

            I have heard from others that there are nice elders but because I have never met one in my life (and I have been in several congs) I thought the nice elders were an anomaly. But I may have to revise my opinion and hope that one day I meet one of them.

            The elders in the congregation I am in at present have been bashing on my door day and night trying to arrange a meeting with me. I assume it is a meeting to determine whether to arrange a committee meeting or not. I have put a ‘For Rent’ sign on my front door, blackened the windows, stopped hanging my washing on the outside of the apartment balcony and I park my car in a secret place. They think I have moved, and with so much other chaos happening in the cong they seemed to have given up trying to contact me.

            I don’t consider any one of them to be nice.

          • Kay says:

            Ricardo, I put a Pentacle on my door… seem to work lol. I’m avoided anyway as I am a nasty Apostate who dared to speak about child abuse… saying that, they visit my daughter upstairs to try and get her to come back to Mordor… I mean the Kingdom Hall ( notice little references to LOTR there.. eh eh probably go straight to hell for that one – oh wait, no don’t do hell).

        • Markie says:

          Ricardo, I do believe a lot of elders are people that get their self worth by their so called “position” at the kingdom hall and not in the real world. And the do get abusive. Shame on them, but there are some “nice” elders out there. They are the ones that realize being an elder doesn’t mean much just extra work at the kingdom hall. Sorry you feel they are all abusive mongrels.

    • tranquillo says:

      I absolutely agree with you, Ricardo. I have different views from you and messenger but I’ve always appreciated the level of respect here. Let’s try to keep that level of civilization.
      no need for mud-slinging

  31. Resister says:

    Ricardo, you spin an interesting yarn. You claim the elders are ‘bashing on your door day and night’ to arrange a meeting. Yet, after you tricked them into believing you’d moved, not one of them asked for your new address??? Oh, I forgot, they are distracted by all the “chaos” in the congregation. LMAO … Like what precisely? Fires? Floods?
    Ricardo, I have a novel idea for you. If you want people to treat you in a “civilized” manner, and with respect, try actually telling the TRUTH from time to time.

    Man, I CANNOT believe the bullish-t artists that seem compelled to visit this site. Compulsive SOCIOPATHS.

    • Resister says:

      ……. with no lives.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Resister, I haven’t attended meetings for the past 3 months, so how are the elders going to ask me where I live now?

      As for chaos in the congregation, never before have I seen a kingdom hall be evacuated because the wife of a newly d’fed brother has gone berserk before the meeting asking where is the mercy shown to her husband, and screaming at the elders. Two weeks before another friend did a similar thing: he went into the hall and told off a false witness in the case and loudly asked the elders where was the mercy shown. Another brother who slapped the CO when nobody was looking got a taste of CO revenge when the CO sent a letter to the elders asking them to investigate the brother promoting Franz’s book ‘Crisis of Conscience’ and mixing with d’fed people. Add to this someone pretending to be the CO starting a congregation chat group, elders’ tyres mysteriously being deflated, threats made to certain brothers, bible students writing to the CO complaining about the disfellowshipping of decent brothers by dishonest elders, complaints made to the immigration dept about foreign elders, and people afraid to attend the meetings due to what will happen next.

      I would term this chaos. And I am thankful that it has distracted the elders. Soon I can leave the country and get away from the Keystone Cops.

      As for lying, what lies have I told. I am not an elder. I am not Geoffrey Jackson. I have no need to lie.

      I don’t even have a need to bulls*** , because all these happenings are happening. I just need to sit back and watch, with joy in my heart.

  32. Ted says:

    There’s not a hope in hell of proving the existence
    of a God responsible for creation. let’s concentrate
    on exposing the religious gurus who claim intimate
    knowledge of the unknowable and that faith in god
    equates to faith in them.

    The one life we have and can be sure of, they need,
    to exploit and use in marketing their invisible product
    or they’re out of business. How many thousands have
    been duped by WT,s aggressive selling only to die still
    waiting for the pay off, which is always coming soon,
    as it was in a the days of Jesus and apostles. —
    Matt,16:27-28 / 1 John 2:18. / Rev, 22:10.

    • outandabout says:

      Hi, Ted. well I reckon it’s possible to prove god doesn’t exist just by dismantling everything that supports the god. We don’t believe in Greek gods anymore, yet millions of people lived and died by them and even Socrates was forced to take hemlock for ‘not recognizing the gods of the state’ and ‘corrupting the youth of Athens.’ Sound familiar? And yet WE get accused of being blind??!!

  33. messenger says:

    A comment I wrote to Markie but a statement to all!


    Remember how when we were in public school the bullies were always students that were academically inferior? Very rarely, if at any time, did we view a bully that achieved academically.

    Also, think about what it takes for addicted people to change their addictive behaviors. They have to want to. We cannot change them. Therefore, they might not change it; and that’s one fundamental reason why God, in his on time, will wipe them out.

    Take care Markie

  34. Resister says:

    @ Sarah

    It is true. Betrothal, marriage and childbirth for Hebrew women (girls) usually took place between the ages of 12 and 14. I was surprised to find that out myself. I always thought Mary was an adult. You’re right, the bible does not explicitly state her age, but there’s no reason to believe she would have been any older than 12 – 14 .

  35. Resister says:

    When the bully is caught, what is his immediate Go-To? To cry “Bully!”
    “I AM being bullied! I am the victim here! Feel sorry for ME! Pity ME! I’m the Good Guy!”
    Watchtower’s dirty tactic, to a TEE.
    I’m sure the Nazis viewed the Allies as bullies. “What are these bullies doing interfering with our plans?”
    I’m sure Charles Manson viewed the police and courts as bullies. “Who do these people think they are? I AM Charles Manson, I should be able to murder whoever I want.”
    Then it’s the other Go-To – violence or THREATS of violence. Now messenger is threatening us that his god will wipe us all out if we don’t change our ways and conform to his (messenger’s).
    The jokers who come here telling us to respect each other and behave in a civilized manner, each believes that their god will massacre us for not believing what they believe, and sometimes it slips out. They just can’t help it. Threatening those who don’t agree with you, with mass murder and fiery destruction.
    You tell me, how CIVILIZED is that???

  36. Resister says:

    messenger, you and your pathetic cronies should just give it up. You’ve been busted so many times, at this point you’re just embarrassing yourselves.

    • outandabout says:

      there’s truth in what you say, resister……religion is a bully – ‘believe or die’, and if we decide to cherry pick the appropriate scripture, we can do it right now. But thats the belief system and I feel thats where criticism should be directed. Of course there will be the occasional slip up on both sides. We’re human after all.

      • Resister says:

        The belief system is nothing without people to believe. I hold the believers just as responsible as their leaders. As the light gets brighter and brighter, there are fewer and fewer excuses. Religions are screwed up, but let’s not get sidetracked from the fact that this is an anti-CULT website. Yes, there are a lot of deluded JWs, poor souls. But the WT forbids association with “apostates”. If JWs come here to learn the truth about “the truth”, awesome. But I have absolutely no sympathy or pity whatsoever for the JW Apologists who come here just to throw a monkey wrench into the machinery. And I’ll bet most of them are perverts anyway. The bloody hell with them.

        • Resister says:

          …Especially since they can come here and bitch all they want. Meanwhile, neither nor their apologists have a site where WE can do the same. Think about that. Not very “civilized” now, is it???!!!

          • Ricardo says:

            @Resister, the only people I have found as rude and abusive as you have been elders. Are you sure you aren’t an elder secretly commenting?

          • outandabout says:

            just wondering, resister…..are you an ex-jw or are you here for another reason. You seem fairly hot under the collar about something. I ask because when I first found out my jw family were wasting their lives in a self serving cult and when I tried to tell them about it but came up against a brick wall of cult indoctrination I never knew existed, I was a bit the same. I’ve since mellowed a bit but make no mistake, I loath the Org and their minions. Especially their so-called lawyers.

          • outandabout says:

            I’ll just add, resister, that the reason I;m not hot under the collar anymore is because I’ve realised that no matter what I do or say, things will take their natural course anyway. Religion in the West is in decline because of increased awareness, education and instant worldwide communication. We’re free to discuss ideas without fear. Once, a person could be killed for denying god and not keeping quiet about it. Thankfully things changed but even in recent times a person living in a close knit village could be ostracized or even lose their job for not attending church often enough or be deemed as unsuitable or viewed with suspicion and so an unbeliever kept quiet or pretended to be a christian. This is how religion has kept a hold for so long – by shutting down discussion.
            But just take a look what happened to religion in Ireland once the shackles came off. Give people a choice and they vote with their feet. This isn’t Satan taking hold. This is people having a choice, viewing the facts and making their minds up.
            Religion in the West will die by attrition because the young ones are too informed and the rest of the world, which follows the West, will eventually follow.

    • Markie says:

      You don’t have the capacity to mentally “bust” anyone.

  37. messenger says:

    A very interesting point:

    Many offering comments here can, and do when called upon offer facts, and interpret those facts while expressing their opinions. Two recent participants can only offer opinions, and usually those opinions are about individuals who comment here, even when more than one of us repeatedly asked they submit facts to support their arguments. I speak of one participant who professed to have performed academic research as a scientist, and Resister, who has professed to be nothing more here than an opinion-head.

    Resister, I would be seriously worried if you favored my comments, my personality, or my beliefs and claims, just as I would be afraid if that Bible character with your same name designation favored me. To me it’s an honor from God that you don’t, and your disapproval also supports God’s acceptance of me.

    But to my main point. Is it really so (a devilish phrase) the two of you haven’t enough knowledge to make your points? If you found this site can’t you at least use the internet to find something to help you share a fact? Or, is your whole point to offer opinions about people here that do work to provide facts, in order to discount some of that factual information, and to pat ones on the back that you agree with?

    In all seriousness both of you act like the academically challenged students I’ve taught. Out of the approximately 80,000 students I’ve taught I cannot truthfully state I saw one high achiever that acted like either one of you. Academically high achievers refer to and work with informational facts. The lowest kind, those academic failures, the kind you mirror, disrupt, and they often insult peers.

    If you find my comments offensive Resister, and if you also do so our researching scientist, too bad. I’m not the personality to hold your little hand and baby you, or attempt to gain your favor. I’ve stated I don’t write for you. But at times I do write to inform readers of your faulty judgments as I do here.

    With respect to my ability to offer correct information I, messenger, have attended 4 colleges and a university as a student. Most of the written papers I wrote for those institutions received the grade A, where papers were graded A for excellent, B-good, C-pass, D-below average, and F for fail. I passed all education classes to be a teacher with the grade of “A” except one where I received the grade of B+. My name has been included in the National Dean’s List more than once. That is a national book held in libraries listing each years top performing students in the United States, and I’ve been on the Presidents’ Lists (for top performing students at particular schools).

    So, for you two name calling participants here, logically should readers favor both of your opinions about whether I write analytically over the many teachers that graded past papers of mine? And if readers choose not to favor your opinions over teachers’ opinions about me might that belief affect other opinions you offer on this site? Could it be that through name calling you have put your foot in your mouths discounting your credibility, even should you change and begin to offer facts instead of insults and back pats?

    From my personal experience in observing others I predict that you two will probably continue offering your insults and back pats rather than taking my advice and doing the work of providing facts to your comments. That’s what the academically inferior usually continue to do, insult others and NO WORK!.

  38. messenger says:

    Before taking leave I offer one more interesting point about recent comments. The two aforementioned participants complain about others being off topic from the written article when they continually veer off topic, usually offering insults to participants here, or insults about religion, God , or the Bible.

    Is it their minds have not figured that out (daa?), or do they speak hypocritically (do as I say not as I do)?

  39. Whip It says:

    Morris, Ricardo, appreciate your comments,

  40. messenger says:

    Comments are frequently made claiming Jehovah’s Witnesses are not intelligent people (Sheeple, etc.). I’ve served in congregations in diverse socioeconomic neighborhoods, from the African-American ghetto in South Central Los Angeles, to a White neighborhood in South Orange county consisting primarily of million dollar plus homes, and neighborhoods in-between those two extremes. In addition to teaching in Kingdom Halls I’ve taught some Witness children in public schools.

    With over 40 years experience in observing Witnesses I can truthfully say as a group they are not intellectual midgets. The average JW is at worst of average intellect. If anything I view the average JW as possessing intellectual ability that exceeds the average citizen, because I’ve rarely seen anyone among the JW group that is mentally deficient. I’ve known a lot of people who aren’t JWs that are mental midgets when compared to an average JW or average citizen. I attribute that to JW upbringing, and their desires.

    Someone here claimed having gone to colleges or universities does not mean someone is smart. He’s correct. Those of you who did not go to college might be just as smart as a graduate PHD. You’re smart because of how your brain works, not because of what someone taught you. If you failed to go to college and can make a decent living then college is not important for you. The best thing about a university education is that it almost assures a liveable wage.

    • Big B says:

      @ Messenger;

      I always have appreciated your thoughts on all different Biblical and scientific subjects. Keep up your good work. Perhaps I have been somewhat harsh with my definition for the Witnesses as being ‘sheeple’ but I would like to clarify this. Being a ‘sheeple’ does not necessarily mean a unintelligent person but an individual that, although being shown “the error of their way” dismiss your proofs out of hand. They continue following the group or their misconceptions without research or investigation like lemmings.

      For example, I had a couple of elders visit me trying to convince me and my family to return to the Hall. I like them both, personally speaking, and enjoyed their fellowship on many occasions.

      However, when I told them about the Witnesses being involved in the UN for over ten years and tried to show them information I had printed off the internet, they not only refused to take it, but dismissed it as they had not read it on! That is blatantly following the cult and not investigating the facts for themselves. Thus the adjective of ‘sheeple’ is what I would describe them to be. Not necessarily stupid, unintelligent people but adamantly refusing to be informed. Thus they are being purposefully led astray by imperfect men to their own spiritual demise. Those poor people (read: sheeple) are to be pitied not hated. However, “when the student is ready to learn, then the teacher will appear.” -Chinese proverb. Thus I learned that those elders, in this case, were not interested in what I had researched as my reasons for our unofficial disassociation or knowing TTATT. Hopefully, they will be more receptive at a latter time but I don’t believe that they will. They’re to entrenched in the cult mentality and their positions within the ‘organization’.

      The same nonsense response was given for Jehovah’s Witnesses ‘child abuse’ worldwide. Oh they had the latest policy letters from the Society alright but had absolutely no idea of ARC findings or the tens of millions of dollars in judgements they have paid out to the victims of Watchtower’s inane policies that protect abusers rather than victims. Which is why the literature is not forthcoming. No monies to invest in printing literature due to judgement payouts. They were blissfully ignorant of those facts, as well.

      Long story short, I told them that my family and I have absolutely no interest whatsoever of returning or visiting the Kingdom Hall and that Jehovah’s Witnesses were an oppressive cult on the way to extinction. I wonder if they dare to return although I gave them an open invitation for whenever.

      Probably drew straws to see which elders would come by and visit the Big B, et als. “Oh nuts, look who we have to visit!”

      • messenger says:

        I always enjoy reading your posts also Big B.

      • Peggy says:

        Big B., Right on again! “Not necessarily stupid, unintelligent people but adamantly refusing to be informed”. To be pitied not hated. I have similar feeling about the future of the watchtower, and think your predictions as mentioned in another thread are very probable. I really think in a short time the religion will shrink and be running out of money, adherents, and public respect.

        • Big B says:

          Yes, Peggy, it will certainly be interesting how the future demise of this cult will play out. However, I don’t believe for one minute they will be able to pull out of the tailspin before their imminent crash. I think it would be best to put on a parachute and bailout before the inevitable.

          So much wasted time in this organization but hindsight is definitely 20/20. “If only” seems to be a haunting refrain played over and over again. Well as the old expression goes “If wishes and buts were candies and nuts we’d all have a Merry Christmas”! Best to look forward and keep positive. Helping others break free but only if they’re ready to do so. Otherwise you’re “tossing your pearls before swine”, so to speak.

          Thanks for your comments,

          Big B

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