On a cold Philadelphia morning the 7th of February, 2017, Stephanie Fessler walked into the Court of Common Pleas of Pennsylvania, First Judicial District, Civil Trial Division. The time was 9.45 a.m. according to the clock which sits atop the historic City Hall courthouse in the center of Philadelphia. But there was another clock running – it was the clock of justice, the timepiece which measures just how long it takes for a person or organization which has damaged another person’s life to be called to account for what they have done, or possibly what they have not done.
It has been 13 years since congregation elders in Spring Grove Pennsylvania first learned of the inappropriate relationship and abuse perpetrated by Terry Monheim, aged 49, and her victim, Stephanie Fessler, who was just 14 years of age when the abuse began. Stephanie was dragged before elders in 2004 and 2005 to answer for her relationship with her abuser, but with grotesque disregard for the law, elders knowingly failed to report the suspected abuse to the police, to Pennsylvania’s Childline, or to any other authority. Instead, they forwarded what they knew to Watchtower’s legal department, who wantonly disregarded Pennsylvania State law, and also failed to report.
Instead of protection the victim from further harm, local elders in Pennsylvania issued a private reproof in 2004, then another public reproof in 2005. The victim, Stephanie was crucified and devastated, having been denied protection from the authorities who are trained to protect minors, and prevent further injury and mental distress. The local elders and the Watchtower organization victimized Stephanie, and more than once. Her participation in the abuse was viewed as a sin, and not a crime. Stephanie was a sinner, they said.
At 9:52 a.m. 25 Jurors entered the court of Mary C. Collins, and were instructed regarding the nature of this case, and were read the list of witnesses who would likely testify. By 10:25 a.m. all but 10 jurors were dismissed, and the final jury was complete. Eight jurors with two alternates will decide the fate of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, The Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Spring Grove Congregation of JWs – and to a lesser extent, the abuser Terry Monheim.
Pre-Trial Motions
Just prior to opening arguments, without the jury present, the attorneys for the plaintiff, Stephanie Fessler, and the defense battled out more than a dozen motions before judge Collins. These motions set the stage for which evidence can be introduced during trial, and that which can’t.
The battle did not take long to become heated when Spring Grove defense attorney Jud Aaron argued vocally against the introduction of a new witness, who was an elder in York County PA. Mr. Arron argued that this was a “bombshell” witness introduced by the plaintiff, whose testimony is irrelevant, and who had not been deposed by defense. Judge Collins agreed with the defense that his evidence would not be permitted during the initial phase of the trial, but will be allowed during the punitive stage of the trial. The stage was already beginning to set for Watchtower’s inevitable defeat, even before the jurors heard a single witness testify.
In another motion, the defense attempted to preclude the testimony of detective Lisa Layden, an expert witness, stating that her testimony is “just an opinion” and should not be permitted. After a concise rebuttal from counsel Jeffrey Fritz, Judge Collins agreed, and the defense motion was denied. Lisa Layden will testify.
It was no surprise that the defense attempted to argue that the statements made to elders by the plaintiff were privileged, and entering them into testimony would violate clergy privilege laws, which protect confessions made to clergymen. This claim erupted in a furious rebuttal by Stephanie’s attorney Jeffrey Fritz, in which he informed the judge that clergy privilege has no application in this case, as there was no expectation of confidentiality when the elders hauled Fessler into an elder’s meeting and questioned her about her relationship with Monheim. When elder Eric Hoffman was deposed over 2 years ago, he never once advised counsel that he would like to invoke clergy privilege, and in fact he violated that anyway by spreading every aspect of Stephanie’s testimony to multiple elders as well as the Watchtower legal department in New York. As the steam settled from Mr. Fritz’ forehead, Judge Collins told counsel that Fritz was “right on point” about this issue, and that clergy privilege could not be invoked. As Watchtower has attempted to claim clergy privilege in the past, this was another defeat for the Jehovah’s Witness organization.
In a somewhat surprising defense strategy, defense attorney Jud Aaron claimed that the plaintiff’s counsel is putting the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses on trial by introducing dozens of Watchtower and Awake articles into evidence. It was a desperate move, but Judge Collins did not fall for it.
The Trial Begins
From the private, backrooms of the courthouse the jury entered the room. Three black men, two white women, and five black women entered and took their assigned seats. Judge Collins congratulated them for their service to the court, then reminded them that during the trial, she decides on all matters of law, and they must obey her decision. However she reminded the jury that they are the sole determiners of the facts of this case. Collins explained the definition of “preponderance of evidence,” then gave the jury an illustration of a scale, with the plaintiff and defense on either side of center. She stated that if the scale tips ever so slightly in favor of the plaintiff, then the plaintiff has met her burden of proof, and defense will be found guilty.
Following a lunch break, the court reconvened at 1.45 p.m., at which point Judge Collins read the statute for mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse to the jury of 10. The plaintiff was now given the floor, and attorney Gregg Zeff made his opening statement to the jury. Mr. Zeff explained that a member of clergy must report suspected abuse of a minor, and that elders should never keep suspected abuse secret to protect the Jehovah’s Witness organization. Zeff introduced a letter to the body of elders, dated July 1, 1989, which reminds elders that due to lawsuits, strictest confidence must be maintained by elders. The letter advised elders against the “improper use of the tongue”
Zeff explains the timeline in which the elders first learned of the suspected abuse of Fessler in 2004, activity which included hugging and kissing. Elders from both the Spring Grove congregation (Stephanie’s congregation) a those from the Freeland Maryland congregation (Terry Seipp-Monheim’s congregation) were aware of the relationship, but failed to contact the authorities. Instead, they formed their own committee and reproved both the victim and her abuser.
Attorney Zeff then played a video deposition taken a few years ago when this case was filed, in which the plaintiff’s mother Jodie Fessler stated that elder Eric Hoffman never once advised her that authorities must be contacted.
It was not until 2011 that Stephanie Fessler was finally able to contact the police, at which point Monheim was arrested and jailed. Testimony from detective Layden will advise the jury that elders should have immediately obeyed the law and contacted the police and Childline. Instead, Zeff stated that rules were broken to protect the congregation and keep it out of harm’s way.
Evidence will show that Stephanie, at 14 years of age attended public school, but was otherwise completely insulated from after school activities and association with non-Witness youths. Instead she was left to care for her Jehovah’s Witness mom, who had a history of mental illness. Stephanie looked to Terry Seipp (Monheim) for emotional support, but Seipp soon broke that trust by entering into a sexual relationship with Stephanie. Stephanie had no prior relationships. The plaintiff will examine professional therapist Debbie Bauer, who will discuss the damages to Stephanie, not only for the initial abuse, but for the protracted relationship of over two years which caused Stephanie permanent psychological damage. Co-Defendant Terry Monheim was remorseful, having served her time in jail, but the plaintiff will argue that the defendants, Watchtower, the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Spring Grove congregation are to be held responsible for their failure to report the suspected sexual abuse of a minor.
Defense Opening
Attorney for the defense of Spring Grove congregation opened with the statement “In life there are consequences for not telling the truth.” Jud Aaron argued that therapist Lori Barton’s notes will prove that there was NOT a sexual relationship occurring at the time elders in Spring Grove first learned of the affair between Fessler and Terry Seipp (Monheim). As a result, Aaron said “You can’t report what you don’t know.”
Aaron further stated that by 2005, the “relationship” between Fessler and Seipp was over. In a moment of great emotion, the plaintiff Stephanie Fessler sat just a few feet away from Jud Aaron as he then stated “Stephanie Fessler did not tell the truth…As a consequence, no report was made.
As if to hammer this point down to the jury, Mr. Aaron replicated his earlier comment in a final statement: One things is crystal clear – Stephanie did not tell the truth, so the elders had nothing to report. The elders could not protect Stephanie Fessler because she did not tell the truth.”
Next up was Mr. John Miller, attorney for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Miller, a Jehovah’s Witness elder himself and a member of the Patterson New York JW legal department, explained that Jehovah’s Witness are a Christian religion, and that the jury will here that Watchtower “owns some things up there” in New York. After offering his explanation for the various Witness owned corporations, he then echoed the words of his co-counsel Jud Aaron and stated that Terry Monheim will not show up in court to defend herself here. He further stated that the Watchtower and CCJW did not have any duty to report what they had heard from congregation elders.
Miller also reiterated that the key to the defense is contained in the notes of therapist Lori Barton. Miller in his best courtroom dramatics stated emphatically “Records don’t lie.”
Attorney Miller intensified his plea to the jury, closing with the statement: “We (the Watchtower) have nothing to do with this case.” Miller quipped that elders are “just lay persons,” closing his remarks with “Watchtower and CCJW don’t even belong here.”
Attorney for CCJW (Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses) Louis Lombardi made no opening statements to the jury. He sat silently between Aaron and Miller at the defense counsel table, leaving one to wonder if he will ever make an appearance in the defense of the Jehovah’s Witness organization.
Stay tuned for more as we report on the ongoing defense strategy, and the courtroom antics of Watchtower’s first witness, Thomas Jefferson, Jr.
[Further Reading: Please see our introductory article on this case:
Related video…
Thanks for the update John.
I was interested in the pathetic clergy privilege defence. I can testify that when I was an elder we had a case of adultery come before us. Even though I was not on the judicial committee, every sordid detail of the case was discussed among the body of 10 elders. Some of the Elder’s wives soon knew those details, and there were long standing family grievances and scores to be settled too. I was appalled and objected to the lack of confidentiality and dignity accorded this person (a sister) and was never once allowed on a Judicial Committee the short time I was an elder because I constantly disagreed with just about everything they did and seen as disruptive to the “unity of the body” (something I am now relieved about!) Needless to say that I wasn’t an elder for long and soon faded afterward. The point is though that this experience is the norm – there is no such thing as confidentiality amongst elder bodies. What is disclosed before one or three men is often disclosed to dozens, including the HQ, and sometimes even becomes public knowledge in the local congregation!
I’m also appalled (but not surprised) by the society’s defence in the last part of your article, where they try to distance themselves from the actions of individual elders and effectively hang them out to dry. You could see it in the faces of some Elders who appeared before the ARC – they were stuck between a rock and a very hard place: tow the party line regardless of the personal cost, or pay a higher price if you don’t!
You are just right when you say: lack of… dignity. It says it all. Thanks
Thanks for the detailed report John. I wish I could be there, but hearing from you is the next best thing. I guess we could have expected that the defense attorneys would throw the clients of those other defense attorneys under the bus. It’s everyman or org for itself when the crap hits the fan. But it’s hilarious to see that happen. And it goes against Bible counsel to do”what is fine towards all, but especially towards those related to us in the faith.”
So, the congregation’s attorney argued that Ms. Fessler did not tell them of the abuse, while WT’s attorney claimed that the WT is not required to report any report they obtain from her elders. Well, that implies they heard (received) something. I can’t wait to read what report WT received from the elders.
Thanks again John. You do a great job!!!
@JR
One quick question John. I notice in one sentence you labeled Aaron as Miller’s co-counsel. Do you know if Miller is also representing the Philadelphia congregation, or is he just representing WT and CCJW?
Thank you for your reply.
Good reporting, John. Love your style.
Look forward to the next instalment – very interesting.
Thank you so much for this amazing write up. The timely information is so appreciated.
Cheers!
That One Girl
You would expect these attorneys for “god” to bring about a better defense. The clergy client privilege was as weak as it gets. I told a jw this long ago that the attorney client privilege line doesn’t work to protect the org because the elders SHARE all of the supposed “privileged” information.
As a former elder of 12 years I can attest to the fact that the information discussed during a judicial committee is shared with 1) dozens of other elders from different congregations 2) The circuit overseer 3) Sends the info to headquarters to file it away 4) Depending on the noteriety of the “sin” (except child abuse ironically) they may give a local needs to warn the congregation about such conduct.
In one hall I was in a local needs was given about “associating with disfellowshipped relatives” just after a judicial committee with someone for that very reason. Of course EVERYONE knew who it applied to so there goes confidentiality.
I look forward to seeing this play out. One of watchtowers biggest fears is any new legal precedent being set. Also, hearing the attorney say “we have nothing to do with this. This is ALL the layman elders” was priceless.
Oh you forgot……..5] it is usually shared with the elders wives and thus with the congregation. [speaking from exp. of 20 years as an Elder]
True that…
I must say my husband never shared confidential stuff with me but the wives did and they knew everything.Ruthlee
I haven’t put all the pieces of the puzzle together but the
“We aren’t inspired” statement from the governing body has to be part of an overall strategy to disavow responsibility in legal matters. Maybe it’s directed to someone’s suit against shunning and the resultant depression or suicide. Or it’s a defense in some cases of child sexual abuse. Otherwise why would they undermine their own authority? Or even hypocritically claim to be gods only channel but also claim to not be inspired. What the hell does Jehovah’s spirit do to get his message thru, use a special cell phone? This is one sick ORG, forcing kids to give all the details of their rape, sitting beside the perpetrator and end up victimized one more time. A member can rape a child and stay, while two consenting adults who have sex once are tossed out. Go figure
I liked your comment…some parts funny to me.
But the WT Society doesn’t claim to be inspired. That’s why it’s so disturbing that they will kick you out of their church for not believing their interpretations. They don’t claim they get those ideas from God, but from reasoning on his word.
Seems to me they set themselves up as God when they kick you out for not believing their interpretations. I believe there’s a scripture that says they set themselves in the seat of Moses….is that them? in my opinion.
They don’t claim to be “inspired,” but they do claim to be “spirit-directed” which is the same friggin thing!
WS
@WS
No, only in our mind is it the same thing. To the common man, ‘spirit-directed’ and ‘inspired’ sound the same thing. But in Watchtower language, spirit-directed means the GB prays about a matter, uses Bible principles to try to see the solution, and looks for signs from Jehovah to indicate his approval thereof.
Most witnesses have no idea this is what it means. And yet it is refered to in one of the questions for baptism.
Thus, if the GB has made the wrong decision or reached the wrong understanding, it is due to human error.
So, although we may not understand a certain belief, or agree with a certain understanding, we accept it even though it may be false, for the sake of the truth. Which sounds bizarre.
To Ricardo, messenger, Winston Smith, et als:
Firstly, great summation John. Speaking for the majority we all look forward to seeing this played out to its logical conclusion and appreciate your efforts.
Well, here we go again. You would think that these morons, calling themselves the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ would wise up wouldn’t you. But have they?
No, not one bit. “Report child molestation to the proper authorities, be damned! Full speed ahead!” It’s not their hard earned money is it? Are they facing jail time? Absolutely not!
The simplest thing they could do, and its so simple a blind man can see it, would be to report all perverts or acts thereof to the authorities immediately even if the parents refuse to do so. Let the authorities do their jobs and if the offender is found guilty then move forward with a judicial committee hearing to dis-fellowship the pervert using the court transcripts made under oath.
It’s a Win-Win situation. The Society follows Caesars laws; the community rids itself of a pedophile who goes into the ‘big book of perverts’ and jail time would be served; the congregation is truly kept clean with the pedophiles removal by his/her dis-fellowshipping; the victim of the abuse has been supported by the congregation and Caesar; Jehovah’s name and the Holy Scriptures are upheld. Everyone WINS!
Maybe the governing body should be removed post haste as their incompetence is manifest to all. To all except the stupid ‘sheeple’ and their equally stupid body of elders at the Kingdumb Hall.
“To the common man, ‘spirit-directed’ and ‘inspired’ sound the same thing. But in Watchtower language, spirit-directed means the GB prays about a matter, uses Bible principles to try to see the solution, and looks for signs from Jehovah to indicate his approval thereof.”
The aforementioned have as much of God’s Holy Spirit and direction as a sign post. At least the sign post probably has the correct information on it which is more than I can say about the Governing Body. Truly, they are just guessing at scriptural interpretation; which is way, way out of their league and beyond their understanding.
@Ricardo,
What does God actually do when:
– he inspires someone?
– his Holy Spirit directs someone?
What actions does God take in each case?
@Ricardo,
In the English language, spirit directed and inspired do mean the same thing. The JW version of these terms is true Orwellian Doublethink. When they want your obedience they are fully spirit-directed (aka inspired) by God. But when some teaching or prediction blows up in their face, then they are uninspired, imperfect men. Sorry boys, you can’t have it both ways!
As for the GB praying about a matter, looking for Bible-based solutions, and looking for a sign from God – you and I could do that with as good or better results.
If you take the time to read Crisis of Conscience by former GB member Ray Franz, you will be shocked to learn how rare that process you describe actually happens. They’d like you to believe that’s the case, but reality is a far different picture.
WS
@Ricardo:
“looks for signs from Jehovah to indicate his approval thereof”
How does the GB or anyone else for that matter know when a sign is from God? Do they know what to look for?
Are there characteristics or features which distinguish the sign so that it cannot be mistaken that it is in fact coming from God?
Really, you guys don’t know how to see the direction God’s chariot is driving? You can’t see what a sign from God looks like?
As an example, just look at how the GB came to its understanding of the word ‘generation’. From that you can see the signs are pointing in all opposite directions, and Jehovah is up on his chariot getting very dizzy from going around and around in concentric circles.
I would love for the WT to explain how they arrived at the conclusion that Jesus meant a different generation other than his own. I have never seen an explanation of this.
@dee2,
I think Cedars explains it in his book, doesn’t he? About how the endtime prophecies were a feature of the Adventist movement which influenced Charles Taze. Plus it is a pretty good strategy to use if you want to keep a following.
Keep people thinking the end is coming soon, and give them a persecution complex. Who would think the imagination could concoct as many different meanings to the word ‘generation’ as the Watchtower has come up with?
But the expectation of the generation coming imminently is a useful piece of propaganda and thought control that the GB won’t be throwing away any time soon. It has proved invaluable, appealing to the ‘saved’ individuals’ selfish desire to be saved and to hades with anyone who isn’t.
@Ricardo,
Yes, I am aware that Charles Taze Russell was influenced by the Adventists.
However, there are two things which both the Adventists and Watchtower need to prove:
1.) Jesus was NOT actually talking to and referring to the generation way back in the time frame in which he lived.
2.) Instead, Jesus was addressing his statements to a remotely distant generation of people.
I may be wrong, but as far as I know neither the Adventists nor the Watchtower have ever done any textual analysis to show:
the specific language,
the compelling contextual reasons,
the unequivocal compelling linguistic evidence
why 1.) is true.
The only thing they have done to date is just to claim that 2.) is true via their various interpretations and explanations. They have never shown why 1.) is true.
^^^
“…….textual analysis of Jesus’ statements in Matthew 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21 to show……..”
^^^^ I should broaden this to include,
textual analysis of:
– Jesus’ own statements in Matthew 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21.
– Other passages where Jesus himself stated that he would return before his own generation passed away.
– Other passages in which New Testament writers stated that the end of the world was imminent.
Interesting how the GB once swore in court that Jehovah was the editor of the WT magazine, which must mean they were in direct contact with Him.
After that eventually became too ridiculous to believe, I guess they moved onto ‘spirit directed’ and now that they’re up the creek without a paddle they try to distance themselves further with ‘not inspired’ and anything else they think they can grasp onto for a chance, but all that does is expose their duplicity.
I hope the jury is a good one.
I guess if they lose this case it’s goodbye Russia and China.
I’ve had to explain the difference before and I simply say that when they accurately apply God’s word which is the product of holy Spirit, then they can say they are spirit directed. I always start by reminding the person I’m talking with that the GB have made it clear they are not inspired. It hasn’t gotten me in trouble, yet…
Regards
So, if I understand you correctly:
“Spirit-directed” means that GOD HIMSELF does NOT speak to the GB and tells them what he wants them to do. It is the GB who has to figure all of this out by themselves by reading the Bible and arriving at their own conclusions and hope that they make the right ones.
Isn’t this something just about anybody who can read and understand do? Then why the need for a GB if anyone who
can read and understand do similarly? There is no difference between such persons and the GB since these persons are also “spirit directed”.
On the other hand, if the GB were “inspired” then this would mean that GOD HIMSELF speaks to the GB and tells them explicitly what he wants them to do. If this were so, the GB would be spot-on every time – no doctrinal flip-flops, no inconsistencies.
Pity God doesn’t just take the guesswork out of the decision-making process and make it easy for the GB by simply telling them HIMSELF what he explicitly wants them to do. Imagine the embarrassment that the GB, God’s only channel of communication on earth, could have been spared – no doctrinal flip-flops, no inconsistencies.
God needs to start talking to the GB so that they can get it right every time.
Your understanding in a nutshell:
“Spirit-directed” = GOD HIMSELF does NOT speak to the GB
“Inspired” = GOD HIMSELF speaks to the GB
I was just reading this commentary and I think it has some bearing:
“‘the sheep follow him [the true Shepherd], because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.’
Clearly, the “sheep” must themselves judge whether it is genuinely Christ Jesus who is talking to them in the message they hear. The exaltation of men, with accompanying authoritarian speech, dogmatism, and a legalistic approach that suppresses tolerance and compassion, will rightly have a foreign sound to the “sheep” when presented by persons claiming to represent their Shepherd. Rather than take the view sometimes heard today, “Even if wrong, go along,” Jesus said that his sheep would put whatever distance they could between themselves and those who, by a domineering approach, show themselves to be strangers to the spirit of Christianity. There is sound reason for avoiding these, since the lessons of history leave no question as to the inborn tendency of men to seek to impose their will and their way upon others, thereby supplanting to one degree or another the will of God and his good Shepherd.”
WS
@WS
Good summation WS. But remember that Christ practiced Judaism in this same situation. The same situation as WT and JWs are in. What did Christ do? He did not work with, but alongside, the perverted Jewish leaders. Each of us decides what we will do…and I won’t judge some one else’s decision, that’s my scriptural role. But personally, I don’t recognize the elders or the gb as having any authority over me. And I would not take any amount of money or asset if offered to me to accept any position from WT. At this point I don’t even answer so as to support their meetings, and their scriptural ideas. Do I believe someone else must take the steps I have to please God? No. I do believe deceived JWs who believe in Christ are in a relationship with him. But I think its probable that leaders, especially the ones that are not deceived, are in a very, very dangerous position before Christ.
Best wishes brother!
I was baptized in 76′. As long as I’ve been associated with JWs WT has never claimed its publications were inspired by holy spirit. This despite` the fact that F. Franz and some other individual JW members have made ridiculous claims in court, or in their talks, that claim or at least hint at that thought. More frequently their statements, that cause people to believe that claim was made, are ambiguous, such as ‘I had a conference with God,’ which can mean any number of things. The organization has never believed, or claimed as an organization, that its writings are inspired by holy spirit.
WT believes all Christians should be spirit directed as followers of God and Christ. They don’t just make that claim about WT’s writers or their leadership.
The gb doesn’t claim authority because they claim to be spirit directed or inspired. The gb claims its authority by virtue of the position they believe Christ placed them in as ‘the faithful and discreet slave.’ That’s why JWs follow them, and that’s why the gb doesn’t always have to be correct to retain their followers.
@messenger
Have you noticed how the subliminal message is made that what we are being taught comes from Jehovah? Such as in the God’s Kingdom Rules! book page 57, top line: “The holy spirit guided Christ’s followers to just such a view in 1962…” Although the GB is not inspired, we read that the holy spirit has done this thing, Jehovah has done that, and Jesus has helped bring in some other improvement (page 54 paragraph 18: “Ever since then, Christ has guided his people…”). It is not the GB guiding, never. It is always Jehovah, Jesus or the holy spirit. And yet, when things go wrong, then it is human imperfection. When things go right it is divine direction.
So although the GB is not inspired, by the material the GB produces it seems that the GB is inspired. What a slight of hand! What propaganda! What a cunning way to brainwash people! Quite brilliant when you come to think of it. I can’t understand why God’s organization needs to be so, what is the word?, deceptive?
All of this confirms then that God does not speak to the GB, they are just 7 men trying to muddy their way through the Bible and figure out for themselves what it means.
If someone has to figure out all by themselves what the Bible means then it is clear that God is not speaking to them. It is quite clear that God does not speak to the GB, given their ever-changing doctrines and inconsistencies. If God did speak with them, clearly they would get it right the first time.
Whatever the GB has figured out are their own thoughts not God’s. God has nothing to do with the GB’s doctrines or decisions since he doesn’t speak to them, they are the ones figuring out what the Bible means all on their own.
Why should anybody listen to the GB since God does not speak to them?
If God/Jesus does not speak to the GB then how does the GB know that Jesus placed them in the position of ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ ?
It cannot be Jesus who placed the GB in the position of ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ since Jesus does not speak to the GB.
And by the way, wasn’t Fred Franz a GB member and hence a part of the WT?
Also, if the WT are not inspired and they believe that all Christians should be spirit directed as followers of God and Christ not just the WT’s writers or their leadership, then why have they distinguished themselves as God’s mouthpiece, God’s only channel of communication on earth?
It is simple:
Either God speaks to the GB or God doesn’t speak to the GB.
If God doesn’t speak to the GB then whatever they have written in their publications are their own thoughts not God’s, so why should anyone listen to the GB?
@dee2,
You have seen the light. Now, how do we wake up the zombies?
Win or lose this case, the Watchtower are what they are. The word is out and the rot can’t help but spread. It’ll just take longer…..
but this loss of Clergy privilege……good one!!
Yep and if they want to get it back they’ll have to stop writing their poison pin letters about people and passing them around.
First they do is denounce the victim, The elders could not protect Stephanie Fessler because she did not tell the truth.” Blame the victim, and when the perp is sent to jail, doesn’t matter does it! Every excuse under the sun to get out of facing the facts that they are truly in no position to help those who have been abused. Please keep on letting us know what the latest is about this case. Thanks very much.
If WT was not legally required to report the abuse after hearing from their elders in Penn., then why are they still in the case? If WT and CCJW could legally get out both those corporations should be out by now. The jury only decides on what’s factual. The judge decides on what’s legal. So, if they could have gotten out their lawyers probably would have filed a demurrer before this case ever reached a jury. A demurrer is a motion to dismiss, claiming there are not grounds for legal action, even if all the alleged facts are accurate. In other words, it’s asking to dismiss the case based upon what defense attorney Miller said in his opening argument, “WT and CCJW shouldn’t even be here.” I believe the WT or CCJW or both will be found liable for influencing their elders in Penn. not to report to officials, as long as the jury finds that Ms. Fessler reported the abuse to her elders, and her abuse continued after that while she was a minor. Of course that’s assuming WT lawyers were told at Bethel. Even if WT was not legally required to make a report itself, as it claims, they could still be in big trouble. Punitive damages will be considered in this case, which if awarded, can be large. I think the judge wants to know which one is guilty WT or CCJW or both.
One last comment. For what reason in hell was Miller telling the jury about the corporations WT owns in New York? Doesn’t he know that will give the jury some idea of their riches, or a least cause them to consider WT’s wealth. Don’t anyone hire that guy if you get sued. He might tell your opponent everything you’ve got, and where to find it, and inform your jury too.
@messenger,
Also to think about, why are the Watchtower side saying that the girl didn’t tell the truth so there was nothing to report? The elders reproved her, privately and then publicly. A person doesn’t get reproved for nothing. On the surface, it looks like the elders are telling lies. I hope it gets proven clearly that they are lying. So many times elders have lied to me while giving me private counsel. But we have no witnesses because we are before the 3 men who stick up for one another on our own. They lie, then they back up one another that they didn’t say it.
But in this court case the proceedings are public, like the judicial committee system should be if implemented biblically.
Yes about every elder I caught in the wrong lied about it also. But my guess is the woman’s attorney is working as a contingent lawyer. If so he is not only spending his time and effort to prepare and argue her case, but he is also fronting all the expenses, that he won’t recover unless he wins her case. Those expenses are probably up to at least $30,000 US dollars by now and may be a lot more. So, her lawyer has probably got the written docs, along with sworn elder testimony from taking their depositions, to make her case. It won’t be like when the elders knew we couldn’t prove our claims against them, and so lied and got away with those. These elders will most likely loose, and I believe WT will also. WT is complicit because of directing their elders’ actions, even if not required to report themselves. I think the judge wants to know which corporation is the culprit between WT and CCJW, one of them or both. The judge already has copies of all discovery docs, so if WT could havd had the case thrown out they would have. They couldn’t. Most cases are not thrown out on motions to dismiss, but I think WT’s attorneys would have tried that if the case against them was as weak as Miller claimed it was to the jury.
It comes down the fundamental flaw in watchtower’s reasoning, as has been noted in articles on this site in the past: the Watchtowr Society does not view child molestation as a crime, they view it as a sin. So when a young baptized girl admits to sexual contact with an older woman in the congregation, they only look to discipline for the sin and do not consider that there was a crime committed. The need a serious viewpoint correction: child abuse is a crime first and a sin second. Unfortunately for Watchtower, the only way they learn is through severe financial reprisal. The scripture aptly applies: a reproof is better for a wise one than striking the stupid one a thousand times.
WS
@ Winston Smith;
“The scripture aptly applies: a reproof is better for a wise one than striking the stupid one a thousand times”.
Well said; however another quote comes to mind, namely “You can’t fix stupid.” -Ron White U.S. comedian 2006
The idiots (Governing Body & ‘helpers’) piloting the S.S.Stupid (WTBTS) will continue in their obstinacy of hitting the iceberg of court displeasure and monetary reprimands until their death or removal.
Since Stephen Lett et als will continue begging for money, how will the ‘Sheeple’ be enlightened; certainly not by Watchtower sources of propaganda? What can be done to wake up the zombies or do we just let them suffer in their own stew of stupidity?
Thanks for the update of this case. It makes me want to jump on a plane and get to Philly to sit in court for a few days. I did this for the first case in London last year and as I have friends in Philly….who knows. Is there an estimate for trial length on this one does anybody know. Thanks again.
In view of these two paragraphs my question is, are the elders clergy or laity?
If they are laity you can not invoke the secret of confession, and if they are clergy they clearly violate the secret when they inform others and the branch of the country.
“It was no surprise that the defense attempted to argue that the statements made to elders by the plaintiff were privileged, and entering them into testimony would violate clergy privilege laws, which protect confessions made to clergymen”
“Attorney Miller intensified his plea to the jury, closing with the statement: “We (the Watchtower) have nothing to do with this case.” Miller quipped that elders are “just lay persons,” closing his remarks with “Watchtower and CCJW don’t even belong here.”
@James Bann: My thoughts exactly! The WT has a long history of contradicting themselves in print. It’s great to see them doing it in a court of law where just maybe they’ll be held accountable!
Remember Slammin’ Sammy Herd’s letter to the court in the Candice Condie case. He refused to appear after being summoned to do so, his excuse was that he had never been an employee of the Jehovah Witnesses or Watchtower. He added that he didn’t make any policy decisions, was not a leader in either group, the letter continued for many more paragraphs with Sammy Boy denying any connection with the WT and many other dishonest denials that I don’t recall.
He is infamous for his “Women have a smaller brain”, and in the case of a woman being smarter than her husband she should act as though she was not. The wife must obey the husband and defer to his judgement even when he is wrong and she is right.
I’m sure at some point 50-100 years ago when the roles of women and men were defined, one received extreme pressure not to cross the boundaries, you could get away with his crap, not now. The JW ideal marriage still seems as if nothing has changed. This attitude might explain the reluctance to bring a perpetrator to justice when a male perv rapes a young girl. Women of any age are here to serve men, to be a servant, a doormat etc.
That was actually Gerrit Losch who signed that letter saying “oh watchtower has no authority over me. I don’t represent watchtower”..
@ James B
Since the 70s servants have been directed to be careful about sharing privileged information with others so as to not loose their personal clergy-penitent rights.
Also, WT has argued in a CA case that I’m familiar with that their elders have that right….and in that particular case it was ruled their elders (clergy) lost it because they wrote down info about the JC meeting and passed it on to others to read. They could not loose what they never had.
Miller is probably posing for the jury. The jury consisting of laymen are probably uninformed about legal issues like this one, so Miller realizing that in painting the impression that a mistake has been made for WT to be there. His posing means nothing to the judge who decides the legal aspects of the case.
So excited to read the next installment! My personal experience is that Elders lie. To trap you, to cover themselves and each other and to blame you for “mis-hearing” them. What goes around comes around and if you’re lucky, you get to watch!
They lie to get away with their sins. They didn’t lie to trap me…though I’m not claiming that was not true in your case. But if you catch many of them doing wrong without strong supporting evidence they deny it.
Watchtower lawyers telling the judge what the judge needs to do. The Honorable Mary Collins needs to take control of her courtroom before a band of legal egomaniacs take control over her courtroom. Watchtower has no right to tell the judge that they do not belong in this court case. She needs to respond firmly that she is in control of her courtroom and she will determine everyone’s presence.
This is the reason why Watchtower has been getting their way in the courtroom. First, Watchtower’s lawyers keep babbling on-and-on and do not answer the judges question. Or, the Watchtower’s lawyers take control of the courtroom and tell the judge what to do.
How sickening our judicial system is!
This is so interesting. If the legal team and hq are found guilty they will have to stump up the cash and dither about the next newlight policy change. If the congregation elders are found guilty the head honchos will move so fast to distance themselves ,”eat my dust” comes to mind. The outlook for every elder body will look bleak. This organisation is mad, bad and dangerous to know. Ruthlee
Lloyd, thanks for the rebuttal YouTube video on the latest JW Broadcasting video. I especially liked how Watchtower’s latest video shows a girl modeling. This is so hypocritical. Coco Rocha is a Canadian model who is a “devout” Jehovah’s Witness.
I guess if Rocha wants to be a model that is OK. However, any minions that are planning on doing modeling should be given fair warning from Watchtower Babble and Tract Society.
Web page: Coco Rocha Wiki
Wow. ANOTHER confused young woman? It’s hard to keep track anymore. Some “watchtower”! This so-called “Watchtower & Herald of Christ’s Presence” is starting to be populated by Pop stars, Tennis pros, and Supermodels!!! Hey, Watchtower, WTF??? To all the regular Rank-and-File jw “soldiers” down there in the trenches, don’t you ever wonder how the GB & elders decide who gets a “Get Out of Jail Free” card, and who DOESN’T?
…or should I say, a “Get Out of Armageddon Free” card?
Thanks for the update !
There’s no doubt the abuse took place, the abuser admitted
it and was jailed. The case came first before elders who were
obligated to to inform the legally established law enforcement
authority, which they failed do.
Instead they followed specific instructions to elders, to
“Immediately” inform the branch office. The branch in turn
also ignored the law on reporting child abuse.
Watchtower lawyers are now trying to disconnect HQ from
the actions of elders, claiming they are merely laity, ordinary
members of the congregation. This is deliberately misleading.
Only elders receive official letters from the branch with
instructions on directing the rank and file members. Often
such letters are to be kept secret, hidden from the R&F./
Here is one such letter demonstrating who really are the
superior authorities in the opinion of the WT, and the elders.
If, after contacting the Society, it is determined that the elders should report a matter such as child abuse to the authorities, it would not be considered to be a breach of confidentiality to make such a report. Elders should always contact the Society before providing any information on confidential matters to secular authorities.” Letter to Elders, March 14, 1997.
Ted law is not determined by a WT policy to notify Bethel before elders file a report. Legally, if elders pass on a written report regarding information they hear in a JC, it has been determined by a California superior court, and a CA appeals court, that there is a breach of confidentiality. And since a similar argument, along with other claims, was successfully used in Penn., then that same position probably will be upheld in courts across the United States. Who knows what will happen in other countries.
Sorry Ted I misunderstood your last paragraph. That was letter to elders saying they could report child abuse to governmental authorities without that report being a breach of confidentiality.
Thanks..I understand now.
Another classic case of Watchtower doublethink. They try to invoke clergy confidentiality to excuse why they don’t report abuse to police, but then argue that the elders are not really clergy. Which is it? You can’t have it both ways. I think they are up for a rude awakening when they try to pull their doublethink tactics in a court of law.
WS
There is something on Anthony’s head. I just can’t make it out.
Anthony Morris
ha ha ha Is it on his head, or IN his head? HA HA HA
Let’s talk about Samuel F. Herd’s head now. Since HE seems to be an expert on cerebral development, stating that women’s brains are smaller than men’s, therefore rendering them unfit for positions of leadership, let’s do a comparison.
Here is Samuel F. Herd’s cranium
http://www.reasoningwithjehovahswitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Samuel-Herd.jpg
Here is Samuel F. Herd’s brain
https://hudleyflipside.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/single_pea.jpg
Wow.
Could THIS be Garrett?
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/hhwikia/images/1/11/Gestapocaptaintm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080604152629
…..And last, but certainly not least, the average JW
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=259933
I think it’s his brain…come on, think about it.
WS
You know what that is, Doc. That’s holy sh*t!
The case just settle.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/jehovahs_witness_sexual_abuse.html
They settled the case. Par for the course. They saw what was on the horizon. There was NO WAY they were going to win this case. Now a gag order is in place.
I hope to see a trial go all the way through one day. That’s when all of the filth will be dumped on the courtroom floor. They know it. Which is why they have settled so many already.
My, that was quick. It looks like we won’t know the amount of dedicated funds that get paid out. Still, when those “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” are brought to court, it can get expensive.
What! No fines or jail time for deliberately breaking the
law on mandatory reporting the crime of child abuse!
Really disappointing. I wanted to see everything come out. Such a shame we won’t know how much money they settled on either. I guess the kiddies better not buy that ice cream this weekend and donate it instead.
They are such clever devils because god obviously does not see all of this. All that money they accumulated was not for kingdom interests after all but for warwick playground and hush money to shut up victims of abuse. What clever devils they are. Ruthlee
Why draw attention to colour of the jury members’ skin? “Three black men, two white women, and five black women entered and took their assigned seats.”
On another note, how typical of the cult to try to smear the victim as a liar.
Sheree
Unfortunately and sadly, race plays a role in the jury selection process, just as it did in the OJ Simpson trial. Race can be a factory for both the plaintiff’s counsel as well as the defendant’s counsel. I am not stating any specifics, only that a description of the jury is relevant, just as gender is often relevant in cases which go to trial
JR
@Sheree Stokell
Try commenting on RACIST attitudes within the JW CULT, as I have. Use all that wonderful energy to do some good. :)
Fabulous reporting, JR. U’re a pro. Thanx.
As far as the settlement goes, personally, I consider it a VICTORY!!! Such a quick SURRENDER demonstrates AT LEAST 3 things:
1. Watchtower knows it HAS NO CASE
2. By settling so SOON, they (STUPIDLY) conceded that they are GUILTY AS SIN & don’t have a leg to stand on
3. They have ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION to ANY Divinity, are not “inspired” OR “spirit-directed” by God, and do NOT believe in Jehovah; Yes, they have just proven THERE IS NO JEHOVAH, or else they would have fought on to an unequivocal “spirit-directed” victory, wouldn’t they? Just like the Old Testament fairy tales about the “walls of Jericho” or any other assorted one-sided massacre by yahweh’s chosen people. Was not yahweh’s chosen nation INVINCIBLE??? So, wouldn’t his chosen people today be just as unconquerable in a “righteous cause”, not involving carnal warfare, of course, but “Theocratic Warfare”? So, Why capitulate? If you knew you had a just cause, fighting for “the sovereign of the universe”, as his “chosen”, with his backing, would YOU settle? Not bloody likely.
So all their dirty laundry did not get to air in public. Too bad. But to any THINKING person out there, the fact they settled, just proves that they HAVE TONS OF DIRTY LAUNDRY to HIDE, HIDE, HIDE. Their dollars haven’t saved them, just bought them a little time. Money talks, but it doesn’t work miracles.
And irreparable damage has been done to organizational morale. In saying WT does not even belong in that courtroom, they abandoned the congregational elders, manifesting their willingness to “cut them loose” and let them “swing”, if need be. Those elders must feel real warm & fuzzy about that! Also, they referred to elders as “just lay persons”! WOW. Real nice. What a slap in the face!!! Don’t get all worked up, elders, just “turn the other cheek” and wait for the next hit. So there it is folks, the Big Shot Elders, “spirit-appointed”, “biblically-trained”, strutting-their-stuff Congregational Enforcement Officers, “JUST LAY PERSONS” like all the other schmucks. I would say that would qualify as “New Light”, wouldn’t you?
Man, oh, Man. Why do we try so hard? I mean, I come on here and make all kinds of fun of the gb & elders, trying to come up with the most witty & scathing slurs I can think of. Yet here, with one stroke, Watchtower itself has done more damage to their own morale than I could ever dream of. Was it Patton who said, “Give ’em a shovel, and they’ll dig their OWN graves!”?
Such a shame this didn’t go the distance – Watchtower clearly doesn’t want the publicity. This is not something they want to “advertise, advertise advertise…” Another case of damage control.
I’m happy for the victim, I hope she got a BIG payout, and I hope this sets a precedent for others, but it still effectively amounts to hush money. They have managed to silence another victim, but at least her story is out there. It just won’t get as much coverage now.
It would appear that their appearance in court was just a last ditch effort to get it thrown out. Knowing that they didn’t have a case, Watchtower clearly would rather pay the money and keep the sheeple ignorant rather than risk the R&F waking up. You won’t read about this “legal victory” on JW.ORG!
No worries, Eric. JWs won’t be reading about it on JW.ORG, but you can bet your dirty socks MANY of them are reading about it right here!!! :D
@ twistedsister69;
I certainly hope you are right in your assessment and that many J.W.’s are reading about this and other well written and informative articles at this site.
They certainly won’t hear much from the national news or read much from the big newspapers, as Jehovah’s Witnesses are ‘a nothing’ a bunch of wacko, door knocking, doomsday cultists; that no one cares about.
Only J.W.’s care about J.W.’s and their peculiar religious beliefs. With only maybe 8 million adherents worldwide (on a good day, maybe) nobody really gives a tinkers damn about those door knocking losers.
@Big B,
I’m reading it. That’s one JW.
Yes, indeed; you most certainly are. I can only hope that many other J.W.’s are as brave and enlightened as you are.
Thanks Ricardo. :)
Here are some reasons why this is a loss for WT. Let me use an anecdotal true story, that I saw in a movie, to explain:
In the movie the CEO of the defendant company offered the (class actions) plaintiffs’ attorney 8 million to settle their case. The plaintiffs attorney wanted more, much more. Then the CEO defendant told him that I can afford to pay you what you ask, but what I can’t afford is paying all the cases that will arise against me if it becomes known that I paid that.
The more cases WT settles like this one, the more it becomes known that they will pay to settle. The more that becomes known the more people will want to sue who have had these issues. So, WT’s vunerability for future loss increases if they settle or if they don’t.
A regular person doesn’t need to hear about an 8 million dollar settlement to get their attention….a regular person will go after WT for far less. Also, with every settlement WT makes plaintiff attorneys will more likely takes these cases. Attorneys don’t want to front their money and time on lengthy cases that will probably involve appeals. Settlements for attorneys are a safer bet.
It that movie, which was a true story staring John Travolta, it was claimed that a very small percentage of civil cases even reach a jury trail. The movie claimed it is the game plan of civil trial lawyers to try to force settlements. If I remember correctly only about 5% of civil cases ever reach a jury trials that result in awards.
spelling slips
The movie is named- A Civil Action- in case anyone wants to see it. I liked it.
I agree that this is a loss for Watchtower, in quite a few ways. We will hopefully have an article coming out soon to analyse the case and the fallout but no-one should assume that because Watchtower got a closed settlement they somehow entirely dodged a bullet. The reports I’m hearing from the courtroom point to a humiliating collapse of Watchtower’s legal defence.
….. where’s the “thumbs-up” emoji?
… how ’bout this: ^ ^
A settlement agreement has been reached http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/jehovahs_witness_sexual_abuse.html
I have just heard that this case has been settled. Probably a confidential out of court settlement but is there any further information Mr Redwood. I had a friend in Philly that was going to attend yesterday but the law firm said “the matter had been settled “.
So they settled out of court. They really had no case to argue since they had “reproved” both the pedo and the victim. Now I hope the law goes after them for failure to report and they find themselves back in court again, hopefully facing the same judge.
^^
Hi dee2, you are right, the GB are no different than anyone else. I think it was a February 2016 Watchtower study magazine (I might have the wrong month) that said they don’t necessarily have any more Holy Spirit or access to information than any of the rest of us. They have said that several times actually in recent years. During a conversation with a “spiritual” man, he said we have to follow the GB whether we have a different understanding or not whether they are right or wrong for the sake of unity. And don’t forget …they spend a lot of articles reminding us if we don’t listen to them we can’t have a relationship with God. They have to use threats and fear to keep folks from thinking for themselves.
On to this article…it is excellent and even feels hopeful. Many of the comments have brought out some thought provoking insights about the various lawyers remarks. So many times it seems the witness lawyers are made to look like dufusses. How could they not look unintelligent when trying to defend the indefensible. Looking forward to more follow up.
Regards
Watchtower Babble and Tract Society has settled out of court. I wonder how much this is costing the Jehovah’s Witness publishers this time.
Please note Watchtower any financial loss on your end is a defeat in court, not a win. Court Settlements are loses. Not Wins.
The legal department is looking more like a liability than an asset. Your legal department needs to start protecting your assets, not giving them away.
1956 “Who controls the organization, who directs it? Who is at the head? A man? A group of men? A clergy class? A pope? A hierarchy? A council? No, none of these. How is that possible? In any organization is it not necessary that there be a directing head or policy-making part that controls or guides the organization? Yes. Is the living God, Jehovah, the Director of the theocratic Christian organization? Yes!” (Watchtower, November 1, 1956, p.666.
@Ted,
It is unfortunate that the Watchtower makes such claims, because when things go wrong then who are we to blame? Of course, the blame must go to Jehovah. I have often wondered what does Jehovah think when there is this organization directing people to blame him for the organization’s mistakes?
I hope one day soon the GB has the bravery to take responsibility for their own mistakes.
They categorically claim that it’s not MEN but JHVH who
directs their organisation, and also that their publications
are on a par with the Bible. In fact they say, the Bible is
is of little use to us without their writings .
However, when these grandiose and delusory claims are
exposed and the doctrinal web starts to unravel,( As it must
do when based on men’s fallacious imaginings,). It’s then
that they are forced to admit that it’s fallible men who are
in control. It’s ambiguous and un-intelligent reasoning, I
think the Bible states, “A double minded man is unstable
in all his ways
Hey Ted,
Sounds like you still have or may have access to the WT’s publications.
I’m wondering if you recall the following WT flapdoodle, and if you could provide the supporting WT references, if possible:
If I’m not mistaken, the WT used to apply Amos 3:7 on many occasions to themselves to indicate that God reveals “his confidential matter” to them – thereby equating themselves with “his servants the prophets”.
Amos 3:7 (NWT):
“For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing
Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.”
When I left “the truth” back in 2002, an elder opposed the view that the WT is based on just the opinions of men, as according to him, God actually reveals things to the GB. He quoted Amos 3:7 to support his claim.
He also told me that God no longer reveals things to individuals today as God no longer deals with individuals in these times, he only deals with his organization. I do recall the WT teaching that God no longer deals with individuals today and that he only deals with his organization.
@dee2
I’ll look it up for you later dee2.
Yes WT has referred to that scripture by applying it to , ‘the faithful and discreet slave,” (aka gb, at first anointed) for years. I believe they still do. They refer to the first part of it, applying that to this group in a general sense. But they don’t claim to be prophets in the same way the ancient Jewish prophets were. The ancient prophets were inspired and did speak for God in the way you have been asking others about “God told them things” there were some types of miraculous contacts between the prophets and God. WT does not claim that. They only claim God’s spirit leads them, meaning it leads them in their overall direction. But they do believe God will not bring about any major events in his purpose without revealing that to them. Their thinking is kind of tricky and it sounds like there is a subtle difference between the two ideas, but in reality the difference is a huge. And you are correct the gb/WT believes God leads his org through the gb as a whole, not though its individual members. In the past there were individuals that had so much clout JWs believed those individuals had authority to direct the org as individuals. Those people were Russell, Rutherford, Fred Franz for Bible interpretation, and Knorr for heading the org.
Prophet writings=infallible/never wrong
WT writings=fallible, can be wrong
That’s WT thinking…
give me a day or two and I’ll post you some Amos references from WT.
Messenger,
So God’s spirit is leading the GB but it doesn’t speak to them or tells them anything so how the hell does the GB specifically know that it is in fact God/his Spirit that is leading them if God himself does not let them know this?
There is no way of identifying whether or not it is God/his Spirit that is leading the GB if God does not let them know this.
The only thing that can be positively identified as leading the GB are their own opinions, nothing else.
So God spoke to the Jewish prophets but he doesn’t speak to the GB. Interesting!, to say the least.
It seems to me that both you and the WT are just engaging in a game of obfuscation by wildly playing with/throwing words around.
____
Apparently you are not aware of what WT lingo/jargon means.
By “organization” the WT means the GB whether an individual GB member or all of the GB members.
By “individual” the WT means a rank and file JW or any non-JW individual.
WT and gb belief is that their organization is led by the governing body when and only when it functions as a body or group. They deny that any of them individually run the organization. That’s just a flat fact. The word individual I have never seen defined in any WT as meaning a rank and file member. My guess is that it isn’t.
WT at times makes wild claims but the primary difference between the prophets and the gb as a body is that the ancient prophets were contacted by God or one of his spiritual agents, in dreams, visions, voices, etc. WT claims those sort of miracles from God no longer happen. WT claims all JWs prophecy in that they speak of future events already written in scriptures. The ancient prophets are the ones that wrote those things…they actually used foreknowledge to foresee them. The gb and JWs just spread that information, as best the gb as a group understands it. Again gb means the whole group, naturally you can refer to any number of members from that groups as belonging to it, just as with any group and its members. But individual members are absolutely not the gb. That according to their claim.
“Quote Amos 3:7 Thus God gives his humble servants special knowledge that others do not have. As the apostle Paul said, ‘This wisdom not one of the rulers of this system of things came to know…For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit.’ Having advanced knowledge from Jehovah his servants are equipped…” Wt 1980 p17
Also, organization does not mean governing body in WT lingo. All appointees of the WT are considered part of the ‘organization’ elders, MS, pioneers, etc. Some Witnesses include all baptized JWs when referring the org. I don’t know where you get your info from, but some of you ideas a far from in step with WT beliefs and terminology even back in the early 2000’s when you were in. I’ve never known anyone to refer to a single gb member as the organization.
Messenger,
[ “Quote Amos 3:7 Thus God gives his humble servants special knowledge that others do not have………Having advanced knowledge from Jehovah his servants are equipped…” Wt 1980 p17 “]
How does God do this if God does not speak to or contact the GB?
[ “The gb and JWs just spread that information, as best the gb as a group understands it. “]
So again, everything written in WT publications are entirely the opinions of the GB and their writing committee.
One wonders why they insist that they alone have “the truth” and demonize and penalize anyone who leaves the religion if they are just groping in the dark hoping that they will find their way?
[ “Their idea is that Christ and his father chose them to dispense Bible truth to the world “]
Yet they keep claiming that Jesus chose them. How do they know this if Jesus does not speak to them or contact them?
Again, this is entirely their opinion.
____
So God does not reveal anything to “individual” GB members, he only reveals things to all of them as a whole – if this is true then God should reveal the same thing to each of them every time. Yet they have to vote on issues since all of them do not agree on everything, every time.
Interesting!
Anyway, I believe you are correct in saying that “organization” means the entire JW hierarchy.
As I claimed previously God has always contacted individuals…Whether he has any members of the gb I don’t know because they don’t claim that, except maybe a few I’ve heard of…possibly F Franz being one. What it doesn’t appear God does is what you’re considering. Talk to someone today and interpreted his written word the Bible. There’s enough truth there that is easy enough for most people to understand that they can be SAVED if they accept it. The main messages are very easily understood.
Messenger,
[ “God has always contacted individuals…Whether he has any members of the gb I don’t know because they don’t claim that……”]
So God contacts individuals except the GB. Interesting!
I wonder why God would contact everyone else except the GB?
Didn’t Jesus promise that he would send the Holy Spirit, the helper, to teach, remind, guide etc persons into all the truth?
John 14:16 – 17, 26:
“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of TRUTH…………But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
John 15:26:
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of TRUTH who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.”
John 16:7,13 – 15:
“But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
But when he, the Spirit of TRUTH, comes, he will guide you into all the TRUTH. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because IT IS FROM ME THAT HE WILL RECEIVE WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said THE SPIRIT WILL RECEIVE FROM ME WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU.”
Apparently the GB is way, way down on Jesus’ and the Holy Spirit’s list?
___
It baffles me that you know that God has always contacted individuals but that God, however, does not contact the GB, yet you nevertheless chose to join a religion that God does not contact? – people would rather join a religion that God contacts if God contacts persons as you claim.
BTW, Charles Taze Russell publicly stated that God had contacted him and was revealing things to him yet his end of the world predictions were wrong:
http://ctr-rlbible.com/?p=233
Messenger,
[ “What it doesn’t appear God does is what you’re considering. Talk to someone today and interpreted his written word the Bible. “]
WOW! How do you know this?
Did God himself tell you this?
If this is true, it certainly explains why there are approximately 40,000 different Christian denominations (Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary).
People are just trying to muddy their way through the Bible to understand what it means without any input from God, hence why there are approximately 40,000 different Christian denominations.
It is indeed strange that God does not contact anyone today to help them understand what the Bible means when Jesus himself promised that he would send the Holy Spirit, the helper, to teach, remind, guide etc persons into all the truth, as I mentioned above (John 14:16 – 17, 26, John 15:26, John 16:7,13 – 15).
So if God does not contact persons about understanding what is written in the Bible then what matters does God contact individuals about today?
Regarding the matter of being SAVED:
Christianity isn’t even sure about the criteria for salvation because the scriptures are ambiguous about this criteria.
There is no certainty of a person’s fate because of this ambiguity.
Christian denominations teach diverse beliefs about salvation. Down through history, Christian churches have taught a range of beliefs about four main topics:
1. How should one handle ambiguities in the Bible about salvation?
2. Are there sins that cannot be forgiven and remain with the person forever? A further complication is a misbehavior called “the unforgivable sin.” A literal reading of the Bible seems to indicate that if a person commits this sin, they can never be forgiven. Thus, they will spend eternity in the torture chambers of Hell. Unfortunately, there are literally dozens of interpretations being circulating of what this sin exactly involves. Not knowing its precise definition has generated real terror among many devout Christians.
3. Is a person is saved solely through faith only, or by good works only, or through some other consideration like church rituals, or some combination of these three?
4. Will a person, once saved, always remain saved — OR — can they be saved and later lose their salvation?
Salvation cont’d:
2. The unforgivable sin:
The New International Version translates Paul’s original Greek in Mark 3:28-29 as:
“Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
Having committed a sin that is eternal and can never be forgiven seems to imply a very hot reception after they die.
A decade ago, an Internet search provided 38 different interpretations on exactly what the unforgivable sin is. Many more have probably accumulated since that original search. These multiple definitions would probably be a source of deep concern to Christians who would fear that it would be impossible to go through a lifetime without committing at least one of them. Fortunately, most Christians probably accept the one definition used by their pastor and ignore the other 37. But, still, some fear and uncertainty is probably going to remain.
3. How does a person gain salvation?
Biblical passages which describe how salvation is achieved are ambiguous, diverse, conflicting:
* Salvation is by faith only:
Romans 3:28:”… man is justified by faith without the [necessity of] deeds of the law.”
* Salvation is by works and faith:
James 2:24: “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
* Salvation by faith motivated by love:
Galatians 5:6: “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
* Salvation is by works only:
The following are two really clear and unambiguous passages on the single criterion used to judge people’s eternal destination – whether it be Heaven or Hell:
– John 5:28-29: This passage quotes a statement by Jesus in which he refers to a coming time. This passage implies that when a person dies, they are buried and have little or no awareness. But when Jesus calls them, they wake up and emerge from the grave to be judged.
This passage clearly specifies who will be sent to Heaven and who to Hell. Note that people will be judged solely on the basis of their good and bad deeds while they were on Earth. That is, one’s beliefs about God, Jesus, his resurrection, his humanity and the rest of the universe are ignored.
Thus, persons of all religious faiths, and none, will have an equal chance with Christians on attaining heaven. It all depends on the presence and absence of good works in their life.
Interestingly, every person does good and bad deeds while alive on earth, and the passage does not explain the rating system used to evaluate these deeds so that a person can know in advance what their eventual destination will be.
Salvation by works only cont’d:
– Matthew 25:32-46: The “sheep and goats parable.” It appears to refer to the Final Judgment when people from all over the world will be gathered before Jesus. That would also involve people of all religious faiths, and none.
The sole criterion that is used to separate those who will attain Heaven from those who will be sent to Hell is whether they helped other people in need. That is, a person’s salvation is based solely on their good deeds while they were alive on earth.
Matthew 25:34-45 is perhaps the most difficult to harmonize with a faith-based salvation belief system because it is so clear and explicit.
The literal, straight-forward interpretation of this passage reveals that salvation is by works, not faith.
According to the parable, the population of “all nations,” that is the entire human race – Christians and non-Christians – will be gathered before Jesus when he comes to render final judgement.
It describes the exact criteria which Matthew believed will be used at the Final Judgment
when Jesus separates all the people of the world into two groups: those who will enter heaven and those who will spend eternity in hell.
Salvation is solely based upon a persons acts of charity to others; it is in no way dependent upon what the individual believes about Jesus’ status, or what God – if any – the person worships. So, Matthew 25 implies that Agnostics, Atheists, Baha’is, Buddhists, Christians, Deists, Hindus, Muslims, Satanists, Wiccans, and others will attain Heaven after death if they are kind to others by observing their faith’s Ethic of Reciprocity – the Golden Rule.
The literal, straight-forward interpretation of this passage reveals that salvation is by works, not faith. This is a profound thought, which leads directly to religious inclusivism and pluralism.
This conflicts with the teachings of many religions that only their followers will attain Heaven. Also, fundamentalist and other evangelical Christians generally teach that salvation is by faith, not works.
In addition, Revelation 20:11-15 refers in two places to how everyone is judged according to their works – their deeds performed while alive on Earth.
These scriptures are not the only ones which states this. There are other scriptures which teach that repentance, belief in Jesus or the act of baptism are irrelevant. Only actions and attitudes matter.
* Salvation is restricted to those who believe certain things about Jesus:
There are many passages scattered throughout the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) which have been interpreted as stating that good and bad deeds have no impact on one’s salvation. The attainment of Heaven is restricted to those who believe certain things about Jesus.
Perhaps the most popular passage is John 3:16-17. In the King James Version, this states:
” For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. ”
Note the complete absence of judgment based on good works. This passage implies that some unidentified beliefs about Jesus is the sole criterion for Salvation.
__
Teachings vary throughout the Christian Scriptures (New Testament):
– Jesus, as reported in the synoptic Gospels, gave two main paths to salvation:
One can be saved by performing good works, as in the “sheep and goats” description of the final judgment in Matthew 25.
You can be saved by adopting a simple life of poverty and following Jesus’ example.
The synoptic gospels appear to make provision for a path by which Christians or NON-Christians can be saved. They must follow a lifetime of service to humanity.
– The author(s) of the Gospel of John said that one must believe that Jesus is the Son of God in order to be saved.
– Paul teaches that only those who believe in Jesus’ resurrection will be saved.
– Other passages seem to require that the Christian must be baptized in order to be saved. Passages scattered throughout the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) say that a person is saved, and her/his sins forgiven, through baptism. This caused great fear among the early Christians because there was no clear indication on how one could be forgiven for sins committed after baptism, except via martyrdom. This may be one reason why so many Christians willingly embraced martyrdom in the early church, and why Constantine delayed his baptism until he was on his deathbed.
Salvation cont’d:
4. Can a person once saved lose their salvation?
Some teach: “Once saved, always saved.” Others believe that one’s salvation can be lost through future sinful action. Again, each side “proves” that their beliefs are true by quoting favorite biblical verses.
Exclusion from Heaven due to specific acts: Various passages in some English translations of the Christian scriptures indicate that certain behaviors will keep people out of heaven: e.g. gossiping, murdering, stealing, sexually abusing children, engaging in same-gender sexual behavior, etc. But the Bible is unclear whether these behaviors cancel the salvation of a person who has already been saved. Also, English translations vary in their description of what the sins are.
Then there is the Universalist belief system which teaches that God gives second chances – that a person who is not saved during their life on Earth will be given a second opportunity. This belief has been condemned as a heresy by most Christians down through the centuries. However, Christianity was never quite able to completely suppress the belief.
In addition, Christian faith groups differ on whether a non-Christian can be saved.
___
And so, diverse Christian denominations end up with entirely different criteria for salvation.
Various Christian denominations have attempted to make sense out of these inconsistencies by emphasizing their own selection of passages, while largely ignoring conflicting passages.
In order to obtain a simple, internally consistent criterion for salvation, most religious leaders and denominations select certain passages and ignore the rest.
Liberal denominations tend to lean towards good works; conservative denominations towards beliefs.
Yet most denominations expect their members to wholeheartedly embrace
their church’s teachings without a scintilla of doubt.
Salvation cont’d:
4. Can a person once saved lose their salvation?
Some teach: “Once saved, always saved.” Others believe that one’s salvation can be lost through future sinful action. Again, each side “proves” that their beliefs are true by quoting favorite biblical verses.
Exclusion from Heaven due to specific acts: Various passages in some English translations of the Christian scriptures indicate that certain behaviors will keep people out of heaven: e.g. gossiping, murdering, stealing, sexually abusing children, engaging in same-gender sexual behavior, etc. But the Bible is unclear whether these behaviors cancel the salvation of a person who has already been saved. Also, English translations vary in their description of what the sins are.
Then there is the Universalist belief system which teaches that God gives second chances – that a person who is not saved during their life on Earth will be given a second opportunity. This belief has been condemned as a heresy by most Christians down through the centuries. However, Christianity was never quite able to completely suppress the belief.
In addition, Christian faith groups differ on whether a non-Christian can be saved.
___
And so, diverse Christian denominations end up with entirely different criteria for salvation.
Various Christian denominations have attempted to make sense out of these inconsistencies by emphasizing their own selection of passages, while largely ignoring conflicting passages.
In order to obtain a simple, internally consistent criterion for salvation, most religious leaders and denominations select certain passages and ignore the rest. Liberal denominations tend to lean towards good works; conservative denominations towards beliefs.
Yet most denominations expect their members to wholeheartedly embrace
their church’s teachings without a scintilla of doubt.
Don’t know why, but some of my comments are awaiting moderation.
Salvation cont’d:
4. Can a person once saved lose their salvation?
Some teach: “Once saved, always saved.” Others believe that one’s salvation can be lost through future sinful action. Again, each side “proves” that their beliefs are true by quoting favorite biblical verses.
Exclusion from Heaven due to specific acts: Various passages in some English translations of the Christian scriptures indicate that certain behaviors will keep people out of heaven: e.g. gossiping, murdering, stealing, sexually abusing children, engaging in same-gender sexual behavior, etc. But the Bible is unclear whether these behaviors cancel the salvation of a person who has already been saved. Also, English translations vary in their description of what the sins are.
Then there is the Universalist belief system which teaches that God gives second chances – that a person who is not saved during their life on Earth will be given a second opportunity. This belief has been condemned as a heresy by most Christians down through the centuries. However, Christianity was never quite able to completely suppress the belief.
In addition, Christian faith groups differ on whether a non-Christian can be saved.
Salvation cont’d:
And so, diverse Christian denominations end up with entirely different criteria for salvation.
Various Christian denominations have attempted to make sense out of these inconsistencies by emphasizing their own selection of passages, while largely ignoring conflicting passages.
In order to obtain a simple, internally consistent criterion for salvation, most religious leaders and denominations select certain passages and ignore the rest. Liberal denominations tend to lean towards good works; conservative denominations towards beliefs.
Yet most denominations expect their members to wholeheartedly embrace
their church’s teachings without a scintilla of doubt.
Salvation cont’d:
Further, If it be true that if it be true that no one can be saved except through belief in Christ, then it may be fairly asked: what became of the numberless human beings who died prior to his birth? And, further, what will be the fate of those who are now living who have not heard, and probably never will hear, of the mission of Jesus?
If Christianity is the correct religion, then generation after generation – dozens of indigenous cultures, thousands of tribes, millions and millions of people – in North, Central and South America, in Europe, in Afica, in Asia, in Australia and Indonesia – all lived and died in total, tragic ignorance of the one true god, without ever being given a chance to know the love of Jesus or hear about the sacrifice he made.
This holds true both for those people who lived before Jesus as well as those who lived during or after his time but before missionaries arrived there. They were never told about the Bible, never got to witness or benefit fom any miracles, and never even had one single prophet raised up fom among their number. Why did God neglect these people?
More importantly, what is the fate of those who never heard? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus at all?
one can be saved except through belief in Christ, then it may be fairly asked: what became of the numberless human beings who died prior to his birth? And, further, what will be the fate of those who are now living who have not heard, and probably never will hear, of the mission of Jesus?
If Christianity is the correct religion, then generation after generation – dozens of indigenous cultures, thousands of tribes, millions and millions of people – in North, Central and South America, in Europe, in Afica, in Asia, in Australia and Indonesia – all lived and died in total, tragic ignorance of the one true god, without ever being given a chance to know the love of Jesus or hear about the sacrifice he made.
This holds true both for those people who lived before Jesus as well as those who lived during or after his time but before missionaries arrived there. They were never told about the Bible, never got to witness or benefit fom any miracles, and never even had one single prophet raised up fom among their number. Why did God neglect these people?
More importantly, what is the fate of those who never heard? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus at all?
To clarify my belief I never said none of the gb were contacted by God. I don’t know if any of them were or not. There is no way for me to tell. Again you referenced Russell’s speech. That’s longer than I want to read right now. But if you refer to the statement in it that you previously posted, I don’t believe that comment by Russell was an admission that God had contacted him. I’ve read a little about Russell. About two or three hundred pages of The Finished Mystery, which compiled some of his notes and ideas, as well as other info about hiom. If I recall correctly some source claimed Russell never said God contacted him, or maybe it said God never spoke to him. I vaguely remember reading that either Rutherford or F Franz, or both of them made such a claim.
Remember who Christ was speaking to when he said he would send the helper, the holy spirit to bring back to their minds all he had shared with them…and to lead them into all the truth. He was speaking to people that were with him. Many of them would write the Bible, and all of them would start the Christian church.
I doubt many gb members have been contacted by God for these reasons:
WT claims that supernatural contact by God as evidenced through miracles ceased with the completion of the holy writings which became the Bible. The scriptures WT bases that belief on are 1 Cor.13:9-10 “For now we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial shall be done away with.” & vs 12″For at present we see in a hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.”
The WT interprets “when that which is complete arrives” as meaning the completion of the Bible. Yet here is a fact that would make verse 12 a lie if WT’s interpretation is correct. Paul wrote these verses, and Paul died before the writings which became the Bible were finished. vs 12 “…At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.” So, for that verse to be true Paul could not be referring to the Bible’s completion, since he was dead by that time. I believe Paul was speaking of the period after his resurrection to heaven when he would see God and Christ.
2nd point….WT claims “God’s spirit bears witness with our spirit” as the basis for the group they call anointed Christians. Bear witness means to tell or testify to. If God tell, or communicates with a person in any way then a supernatural miracle occurred. Consider that scripture and the ones around it. The people know God contacted them , because the cry out aba or acknowledge God as Father after that. Again, implying evidence of some supernatural activity. And yet WT claims supernatural miracles no longer occur.
Messenger,
[ ” Remember who Christ was speaking to when he said he would send the helper, the holy spirit to bring back to their minds all he had shared with them…and to lead them into all the truth. He was speaking to people that were with him. Many of them would write the Bible, and all of them would start the Christian church. “]
However, when Jesus was speaking to his disciples and others about his second coming and the end of the world, he was not actually speaking to and referring to the generation way back in the time frame in which he lived.
Instead, Jesus was addressing his statements to a remotely distant generation of people?
This Bible interpretation thing is getting easier and easier by the minute. I will be able to start my own church in no time.
Yes the only thing that can be positively known to be leading the gb are their own opinions. I remember way back when I was first got in they claimed their writings were not inspired. Some JWs may not think about that because they don’t frequently say it. As Ricardo stated they tell us the food comes from Jehovah 1000 times more than they say their writing is not inspired. What they mean in contained in the faithful and discreet slave parable. Their idea is that Christ and his father chose them to dispense Bible truth to the world, so even if they don’t interpret it correctly they are God’s channel, like Moses was, except God communicated with Moses. Statements like this next one clouds the truth I just shared.
“Quote Amos 3:7 In this century who has been correctly informed about the future? the clergy? the political leaders? the economic heads?Or has it been the witnesses of Jehovah? The next articl will examine the question.” Then they have a 5 page article that focuses how on how prior to 1914 the marked that year as significant, as well as other points made. WT 1971 pg 466.
didn’t edit after typing, but you should get the points shared. You might look on their web site and try to pull up more recent comments on Amos 3:7. I couldn’t find my indexes after 1990. There were other references prior to that year I didn’t share.
If God spoke to/contacted the Jewish prophets – Moses etc – but he does not speak to/contact the GB, then one wonders why the GB even bothers to apply Amos 3:7 to themselves if they are not on par with Moses and the other prophets? This scripture has nothing to do with the GB.
Is this just another one of their subliminal messages intended to deceive their followers into thinking that God speaks to them when in fact he does not?
___
[ “Their idea is that Christ and his father chose them to dispense Bible truth to the world “]
Yet they keep claiming that Jesus chose them. How do they know this if Jesus does not speak to them or contact them?
Again, this is entirely their opinion.
[ “Yes the only thing that can be positively known to be leading the gb are their own opinions. I remember way back when I was first got in they claimed their writings were not inspired. Some JWs may not think about that because they don’t frequently say it. As Ricardo stated they tell us the food comes from Jehovah 1000 times more than they say their writing is not inspired.”]
I wonder if this is also true of other religions?
If God does not speak to, contact the GB does he speak to, contact the persons in other religions?
Interesting!
dee2
To address 3 of your points or questions which you addressed to me.
1. What is the unforgiveable sin? Think about all the discussions you’ve had about the Holy Spirit here, where you discussed how it or (he) leads people to understanding and following God and the Bible.
You quoted Christ saying, ‘whoever sins against the Holy Spirit’ will not be forgiven. You considered that according to the Bible Holy Spirit leads people to know God. So, a person who stubbornly fights against its help eventually reaches a point when GOD decides they have committed that sin; they don’t want to know about him and/or follow him, so he gives up on attempting to help them. He allows them to do things THEIR way without any attempt to reach them for salvation. They hardened their hearts towards God, not wanting to know and/or follow him. And that will not be forgiven them in this system or the next-per Christ. They will die.
2. You asked did God tell me that he doesn’t speak to any religious groups and tell them how to interpret the Bible correctly.
No God didn’t tell me that. I reached that conclusion because I’ve never heard of a group that makes that claim. It seems if that was true the group would make that claim and I would know about it. It doesn’t mean the claim would be true, but it seems I would know if someone made such a claim. Religious groups do their best at understanding the Bible’s interpretation. The ones I’ve heard of admit that. But they also believe they understand enough for salvation.
3.You asked about how one handles ambiguities about salvation.
If that’s the case I suggest the person seek God. To me there are no ambiguities in the scriptures about salvation. God draws people to him. To people that he draws he reveals enough about himself to remove any ambiguities about salvation or, how could he save anyone? If people don’t know what is required for salvation they don’t know God. So, the simpler answer to your question is seek God. Those who don’t will at some point commit the unforgiveable sin, because they don’t want to do that. Its a pretty simple concept to me.
Messenger,
Apparently you did not understand the point being made about “the unforgivable sin” and how it relates to salvation:
Christians do not know precisely what the “the unforgivable sin” is, as there are multiple definitions and literally dozens of interpretations of what this sin exactly involves.
So a Christian does not know whether or not he/she has committed “the unforgivable sin” since there is no precise definition, yet, if a Christian commits this sin, they can never be forgiven. They will spend eternity in the torture chambers of Hell. So many Christians live in fear as they do not know whether or not they have committed “the unforgivable sin”.
__
Again you made the point that “God doesn’t speak to any religious groups and tell them how to interpret the Bible correctly.”
This certainly explains why there are approximately 40,000 different Christian denominations (Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary).
It confirms that people are just trying to muddy their way through the Bible to understand what it means without any input from God.
__
You stated that:
[ “God doesn’t speak to any religious groups and tell them how to interpret the Bible correctly ” ]
But then you also stated:
[ ” ……the Holy Spirit here, where you discussed how it or (he) leads people to understanding and following God and the Bible.” ]
So God doesn’t speak to anyone and tell them how to understand the Bible but the Holy Spirit leads people to understanding and following God and the Bible?
How does the Holy Spirit do this?
Messenger,
[ “God draws people to him. To people that he draws he reveals enough about himself…..”]
How does God do this if he doesn’t speak to anyone and tell them how to understand the Bible?
__
[ “To me there are no ambiguities in the scriptures about salvation.”]
Apparently you have not read the entire Bible critically and you have not visited all of the 40,000 Christian denominations to see for yourself their attempts to make sense out of the inconsistencies by emphasizing their own selection of passages, while largely ignoring conflicting passages.
In order to obtain a simple, internally consistent criterion for salvation, most religious leaders and denominations select certain passages and ignore the rest.
Liberal denominations tend to lean towards good works; conservative denominations towards beliefs.
__
Again, I must ask:
If it be true that no one can be saved except through belief in Christ, then it may be fairly asked, What became of the numberless human beings who died prior to his birth? And, further, what will be the fate of those who are now living who have not heard, and probably never will hear, of the mission of Jesus of Nazareth?
If Christianity is the correct religion, then generation after generation – dozens of indigenous cultures, thousand of tribes, millions and millions of people – in North, Central and South America, in Europe, in Africa, in Asia, in Australia and Indonesia – all lived and died in total, tragic ignorance of the one true god, without ever being given a chance to know the love of Jesus or hear about the sacrifice he made.
This hold true both for those people who lived before Jesus as well as those who lived during or after his time but before missionaries arrived there. They were never told about the Bible, never got to witness or benefit from any miracles, and never even had one single prophet raised up from among their number. Why did God neglect these people?
More importantly, what is the fate of those who never heard? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus at all?
Messenger,
[ ” The ancient prophets were inspired and did speak for God in the way you have been asking others about “God told them things” there were some types of miraculous contacts between the prophets and God……..Prophet writings = infallible/never wrong ” ]
It is questionable whether God spoke to or contacted the Jewish prophets since these prophets made false predictions.
For example:
Daniel the man might have been taken to Babylon during the exile, but Daniel the book was written centuries later in roughly
165 BCE. Its “prophecies” before that date are pretty good, but it fails afterwards. Daniel was writing prophecy after the event (vaticinia ex eventu).
The author(s) of Daniel
accurately refers to two campaigns which Antiochus Epiphanes (Antiochus IV), the Seleucid king of Syria, led against Egypt, but then speaks of a third, after which Antiochus
was predicted to die on the coast of Palestine (Daniel 11:40-45).
This did not happen. The prediction concerning
Antiochus’ final battle and place of death “between the sea and the holy mountain” (Daniel 11:45) was inaccurate, and so we know that this “prophecy” was completed before the news of his death reached Jerusalem. Antiochus
died in Persia, in late 164 BCE.
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires.
In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur.
The author(s) of Daniel appear to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, however it was in Persia not Palestine.
Whereas the writer had been accurate up to 165 BCE, from that point on he revealed ignorance of the movements of Antiochus Epiphanes, so betraying the fact that he was writing prophecy and not history.
The failed prophecy of Daniel 11:40-45 is one of the give aways that the book of Daniel was apparently completed before 164 BCE, during the Maccabean period and that the author(s) of Daniel was writing history and not prophecy.
A simple answer to all your concerns and questions, if you really want the truth contained in the Bible I will give, which should end this discussion. However, if you don’t believe in the Bible and only use it as a source of debate you will never understand its truth, for the in the Bible is enough knowledge to lead on to salvation, because the knowledge there if applied leads one to Christ.
Now here’s your answer. First forget about all the conflicting interpretations of scripture that you keep referring to. You’re using those conflicting ideas as an excuse not to accept the Bible’s message, and as long as you do that holy spirit which is God and Christ will never lead you to the truth.
The Bible message of salvation is very simple, its all wrapped up in Christ because it is Christ he is our salvation, apart from Christ there is none. For you to understand what you need to do about that message I refer you to his words, “Keep seeking and you shall find.” Keep knocking and God will show it to you.
As far as God speaking to people he has always singled out individuals to contact, I don’t know of anywhere groups of people claim God contacted them. Pentecost with those meeting in Jerusalem was a group, and a lot got baptized after that, maybe God contacted some of that large group, the Bible doesn’t say. But since God usually speaks to individuals you won’t be able to find answers to your questions about him telling things to a church.
Knowing what the unforgiveable sin means is not necessary for salvation. Nevertheless I previously defined it above this post.
Not editing this comment so there may be errors
best wishes!!!
messenger
Ted I know they’ve claimed that a person could not understand the Bible without WT help; they even made that claim very recently, about a month ago in WT, but I never saw where they wrote WT writings are on par with the Bible. Do you know where they wrote that?
Ted I do know they claim that if someone reads the Bible without WT they will not understand God’s truth, but a person can read their publications without the Bible and still understand God’s truth. Is that what you read? Or did they actually word it the WT writings are on par with the Bible?
Is it possible to find out how much the settlement was ?
Someone might spill the beans, but legally WT made the plaintiff sign an agreement that includes not discussing that as part of her settlement.
@Dee2, Sorry Dee I got rid of my wt, library many years
ago. There was so much of it, my wife joked, now we’ve
got room to take in a lodger. It’s now all obsolete stuff
that would get you thrown out if you repeated any of it today.
I enjoy your comments and appreciate all the research
you do, I keep notes of some of the incisive points
that are brought out on JWsurvey and I have several
of yours. Very best wishes, Ted.
I looked up Amos 3:7 on the JW website. Here’s what I found:
1). Insight Volume-1 pp. 636-638:
“Man’s natural desire to know the future is satisfied when he worships and serves his Grand Creator, for THROUGH GOD’S CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION HE LOVINGLY REVEALS ahead of time what it is good for man to know (Am 3:7).”
** How does God reveal things through his channel of communication? Does he speak to the channel? If he does not, then how can it be said that it is God who is doing the revealing? Isn’t is more like the channel’s own opinions?
2). w04 8/1 pp. 8-13:
” What do these examples teach us? They show us that Jehovah favors and reveals knowledge and understanding of his purpose to humble ones. HE CHOOSES INDIVIDUALS who may not meet certain human expectations AND USES THEM AS HIS MEANS TO COMMUNICATE HIS GLORIOUS PURPOSE TO OTHERS. This should motivate us to continue looking to Jehovah, his prophetic Word, and HIS ORGANIZATION FOR DIRECTION. We can be sure that Jehovah will keep his humble servants informed regarding the unfolding of his glorious purpose. The prophet Amos declared: “The Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.”—Amos 3:7 ”
** How do these individuals know that they are chosen? Does God speak to them and let them know that he has chosen them?
3). w02 10/1 pp. 12-17:
” Another reason for confidence is that “the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) Today, Jehovah does not inspire prophets as in the past; INSTEAD, HE HAS COMMISSIONED A FAITHFUL SLAVE CLASS to provide timely spiritual food to his household. (Matthew 24:45-47) ”
** How does this faithful slave class know that God has commissioned them? Does God himself let them know that he has commissioned them?
4). w02 6/15 p. 31:
” Note what the prophet Amos says about his God: “Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) From these words, we can glean something concerning confidentiality. JEHOVAH MAY KEEP CERTAIN MATTERS CONFIDENTIAL FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AND EVENTUALLY REVEAL THEM TO SOME INDIVIDUALS. ”
** How does Jehovah reveal these confidential matters to these individuals if he doesn’t speak to them?
5). 00 9/1 pp. 11-16:
” Do we, then, have any reason to be impatient? Do we doubt that a “faithful and discreet slave” HAS BEEN APPOINTED to give Jehovah’s people “their food at the proper time”? (Matthew 24:45) Why deprive ourselves of godly joy because not everything is completely understood? Remember, JEHOVAH DECIDES WHEN AND HOW TO REVEAL HIS ‘CONFIDENTIAL MATTERS.’—Amos 3:7. ”
** Did God speak to the faithful slave and let them know that he has appointed them? How do they know that God has appointed them?
** When Jehovah decides it’s time to reveal his ‘confidential matter’ does he speak to anyone?
Individual gb members are appointed by the current gb.
@dee2, Please correct me if I’m wrong…but gifts of knowledge, prophecy, etc were done away with in the first century. Timothy states that scripture makes one fully competent and completely equipped for every good work. So wouldn’t any revealing of confidential matters today be whatever is discerned through the written word?
The GB try to blur lines wherever possible to give the impression they have a hotline to God but again…they have nothing more than you or I. They’re just not that special and they have whispered that in Watchtower articles hoping people won’t get it or remember it, but then they scream you need us and can’t know anything without us.
Regards
@Eyes opened,
By extension, wouldn’t this also mean that God hasn’t spoken to or contacted anyone in any of the other Christian denominations?
Every Christian denomination has been arriving at their own conclusions about what the Bible means without any input from God.
Perhaps this explains why there are approximately 40,000 different Christian denominations (Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary).
@Eyes opened,
Also, if I understand you correctly, everyone including the GB are just discerning or trying to understand what the written word means.
Based on the various comments made so far, God does not speak to or contact the GB. Would this be unique to the GB or is this also true of everyone else?
If everyone is discerning or trying to understand what the written word means without any input from God then how does this fit in with Jesus’ promise that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide persons into all the truth (John 14:16 – 17, 26, John 15:26, John 16:7,13 – 15)?
@dee2,
I do have some thoughts on the matter. But these are just my thoughts that I try to base on my understanding of the Bible.
John 4:20,21,23, Jesus is saying that neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will people worship. He speaks of worshiping in spirit and truth. Recall when certain ones were leaving Jesus, Jesus asked Peter if he wanted to leave also, Peter said Lord whom shall we go away to, you have sayings of everlasting life. I take this to mean we must remain in Jesus “teachings” not in an organization. I don’t think God speaks to anyone or to any religion other than through his word. When John is referencing the Holy Spirit this is in harmony with Jesus sending the helper so they would have a clearer understanding that the kingdom was to be heavenly and not established on earth. Jesus said there were things he wanted to tell them but they couldn’t understand yet. That’s because he had to return to heaven and then he sent the helper at Pentecost.
Today we pray for Holy Spirit to help us understand the Bible. For help to see how different scriptures tie together to give us a clearer picture. God said that we should listen to his son and Jesus did say he was the only way to the father. It’s noteworthy that Jesus teachings on how to worship as brought out in the sermon on the mount were practical reminders on showing love and peace and hospitality and so on. Jesus did not get into doctrinal issues. His teachings were all about living a good praiseworthy life. Even the WBTS reminds us that Jesus teachings were kept simple enough for someone with an 8th grade education to understand. The GB try to complicate things to make people think they need the GB. I don’t feel any religion has a hotline to God or is nessecary. You might enjoy 2 Cor. 3:16,17, when one turns to God (not the GB) the veil is removed and there is freedom. If we are going to be judged individually then it needs to be what God sees in my heart based on my understanding and not what someone else says I have to believe. I hope this didn’t sound preachy, it is just my opinion. I thought perhaps this would clarify some of my earlier statements I made in a couple comments on inspired vs spirit directed.
Regards
Hello Eyes opened,
I see you have been developing alternate view points.
It seems you have given up on the idea of Jesus second coming to establish his kingdom on earth as this kingdom is heavenly not earthly.
What has caused this change in viewpoint?
You stated:
[ “I don’t think God speaks to anyone or to any religion other than through his word.” ]
But then you stated:
[ “Today we pray for Holy Spirit to help us understand the Bible.”]
So I am wondering if when persons pray for the Holy Spirit to help them understand the Bible, do they get an answer to this prayer and if so, who answers this prayer?
I am just trying to understand the place which prayer has given your viewpoint.
@Eyes opened,
Yes, there is indeed a marked difference between Jesus’ teachings regarding salvation and that of some of the other New Testament writers:
Jesus, as reported in the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) gave two main paths to salvation:
– One can be saved by performing good works, as in the “sheep and goats” description of the final judgment in Matthew 25.
– You can be saved by adopting a simple life of poverty and following Jesus’ example.
The synoptic Gospels report Jesus as teaching that salvation is achieved by doing good works: helping the poor, visiting people in jail, supporting the ill, giving up ones possessions and following Jesus, etc.
The synoptic gospels appear to make provision for a path by which Christians or NON-Christians can be saved. They must follow a lifetime of service to humanity. Repentance, belief in Jesus or the act of baptism are irrelevant. Only actions and attitudes matter.
On the other hand:
– The author(s) of the Gospel of John said that one must believe that Jesus is the Son of God in order to be saved.
– Paul’s writings teach that salvation may have been once attained by strictly following Jewish law. However, since Christ’s ministry, it is dependent upon one’s faith in the saving power of Jesus’ death and resurrection.
– Other passages in the New Testament require that the Christian must be baptized in order to be saved.
Watchtower lawyers claim, “We (the Watchtower) have nothing to do with this case.” Watch out congregation elders! Watchtower godfathers order you to break the law and when you get caught, they throw you under the bus.
That, is exactly what I took from that statement. Elders better be on HIGH alert. The men(governing body) making the rules are not going to take the wrap. They already have the keys in the ignition of the bus and are ready to run you over if need be.
@ John Redwood:
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood the articles published in the Newspaper/Journals from Pennsylvannia on this case.
I thought it was clear that Ms. Fessier did not make full disclosure before the Elders, effectively lied about the extent of the abuse. She and the Offender were privately and then publicly reproved on a second occasion.
It appears to me that the Elders applied mercy to save their sisters, and neither they, nor WT central office in the U.S. had anything to report.
Are you sure that the case was not just thrown out of court and pecuniary “hush money” was offered?
I am not disputing the dangers of WT quango courts and their construction at the Kingdom Hall. But, in this case, has everybody jumped to the wrong conclusion???
Just a thought.
GEM
@GEM,
If a 49 year old has any sexual contact with a 14 year old, child protective services must be made aware of the situation. They were publicly reproved. As a former elder, let me explain what that means: they did something that warrants disfellowshipping, but because they expressed remorse, reproof was deemed sufficient. And because it was public reproof, it means the case had gained some notoriety.
Based on these facts there is no way the elders can claim that they did not know about the sexual contact. They simply chose not to report it.
WS
@Messenger, They don’t specifically say their publications
are on a “Par with the Bible”, but I think the idea is definitely
implied by certain statements they’ve made. >>
Whom has God actually used as his prophet?…. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them…. Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths W!T, 1/15/1959 pp 40
We will also increase our joy if we prayerfully and diligently study God’s spirit – inspired Word and Christian publications prepared under the spirit’s guidance.” Watchtower
1992, March 15 , pp 21-22.
Thanks Ted.