A District Attorney in Oklahoma has filed a motion alleging that the Jehovah’s Witness organization, “most especially the governing body of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah Witnesses,” were involved in concealing child molestation crimes.
This astonishing development in the case involving Ronald Lawrence, which was covered by JWsurvey back in November, has been reported by Jeanne LeFlore at the McAlester News-Capital.
It was revealed in news reports at the time that police were investigating whether elders were complicit in helping to conceal Lawrence’s hideous crimes from the authorities. Now it seems evidence may have been uncovered – with culpability being alleged to stretch right to the very top of the Watchtower hierarchy.
On January 28 the local District Attorney filed a motion declaring that the State will give evidence that child molestation crimes were concealed, not just by Lawrence, but by the “entire church body,” including the Governing Body.
According to this motion, “the actions of the church, their banishment of (Lawrence) on one or more occasion and the directives of the governing body toward the victims and their family members regarding these crimes were actions of ‘concealment’ and further actions preventing the victims from reporting the crimes to law enforcement.”
It was back in November that Lawrence was charged in Pittsburg County District Court with 19 felony counts, including 11 of lewd molestation, seven of forcible sodomy and one count of rape by instrumentation. Court documents reveal a litany of horrendous abuses, including the violation of one victim with a wooden spoon.
An affidavit filed in the case claims that Lawrence told police he had confessed his crimes to at least four elders in order to be reinstated back into the congregation in 2005 following his previous disfellowshipping.
Shortly after his arrest, Lawrence was released from jail after posting a $50,000 bond. A condition of the bond is that he is not allowed contact with any of his alleged victims.
Now, with the filing of this new motion, the Governing Body faces the hitherto unimaginable prospect of being forced to appear as defendants in court over alleged collusion to conceal criminal activity.
A court date has yet to be set.
Lawrence’s attorney filed a motion in December stating that the charges should be thrown out because the statute of limitation had expired. But the District Attorney’s motion has responded by saying that this is not the case.
Why the silence?
Noteworthy is the organization’s refusal to cooperate in giving their own account of what happened in this case, with “several calls to the Jehovah Witness Church” by an investigating journalist going unanswered.
Thinking Witnesses will wonder how an organization that claims to have God’s backing could find itself accused in this way of opposing the “superior authorities” (Rom. 13:1,2), and why it refuses to take any steps to set the record straight if it is free of any guilt.
Indeed, how can the Governing Body claim to have a “fine testimony from outsiders” if they won’t even pick up the phone when accused of concealing crimes by a District Attorney? – 1 Tim 3:7
Further reading…
- DA: Jehovah Witness church concealed molestation crimes
- Church elder, 76, charged in 30 year old molestation case
- Jehovah’s Witness church elder Ronald Lawrence arrested over sex abuse claims dating back to 1980s
- Global Dispath article
- SNAP’s response
- JWsurvey article: Oklahoma police investigating whether elders failed to report serial pedophile
- JWsurvey articles on child abuse
Roger M. Woodbury,
In Australia, The Watchtower acknowledged the Elder’s book (copy download from internet) is theirs! (see http://jwleaks.org/australia/)
You cannot hide forever!!
Milllwallandrew,
In my country, an Elder was caught red-handed in 2007 committing adultery with a sister INSIDE THE KINGDOM HALL. Later, it was discovered that he impregnated 2 sisters and more light revealed that he had committed adultery with 18 sisters INSIDE THE KINGDOM HALL!!
History repeats itself (1 Samuel 2:22) . . .And E′li was very old, and he had heard of all that his sons kept doing to all Israel and how they would lie down with the women that were serving at the entrance of the tent of meeting. . .
If the GB do end up having to give evidence. Beers at my place and we can watch it on the big screen.
This is long over due. We are told that elders etc should be humble and serve the congregation. Thar should doubly apply to the governing body of elders.
They have been over stepping the mark for far too long, claiming as they do to be the the Faithful Slave.
As I understand the Holy Scriptures it is only Jehovah our God that appoints His Faithful Slave.
Also the Governing Body claims to be, The Anointed Ones, who was it that anointed them and when?
I hope the fraud will be soon completely exposed!
We are currently studying in the WatchTower how Elders should act as Shepard’s, that should follow the example set by Jesus who described himself as the Finest Shepard!
When are we going to bring and end to the grave hypocrisies of the GB, who will surely destroy our beautiful organisation if allowed to continue as they do!
Yes. Here, here!
Could the ex JW movement and the overall exposure of this awful old cult now be reaching a critical mass? This grubby little sect, one of the ugliest corners of Christendom has spent so long exploiting and abusing so many people that it has sowed the seeds of its own destruction.
We can see that real, believing and mag pushing, door knocking JWs defy their masters’ diktats and come on this site; they even write comments. The very fact of their visiting indicates doubt. If they offer defensive comments or try in any way to justify this unjustifiable monstrosity of a Christian sect, their useless arguments are easily blown to pieces.
Every ex JW Facebook group reports new members daily. Many have tales of having spent years in the outfit, purely for the sake of family unity. This blog is but one of many exposés. ‘Truth Be Told’, the film has been on tour for months in the USA. AAWA is making sure that the WT can no longer present itself, unchallenged, to the press as an earnest group of clean cut law abiding religious enthusiasts.
There is a string of child abuse cases queueing up in justice systems the world over. Each one will create a mass of negative publicity. Again, the JW bosses will not go unchallenged as they frantically try and whitewash over the crumbling ruins of their little empire. The ever growing and ever better organised and media savvy cohorts of ex JWs will be ready to warn the unsuspecting public.
Another thread on this blog concerns the proposed relocation of the UK HQ. The Council leader in Chelmsford, and the Essex Chronicle, will, we hope, be some of the last
individuals and organisations ever to be taken in by JW PR.
This Oklahoma business should certain;ly speed up the demise of JWdom, if not in name, but at least in its hideous beliefs and practices
Responding to alexjamesisnotmyrealname –
I never thought of that! How true and upsetting that the literature does strongly encourage victims to stay and uses language that if they would “do better” the violence would cease. Of course, we know how harmful this type of home is for children and how likely they are to have issues related to growing up in a house seeing their parent battered.
Just one more issue WT has made for themselves. I hope more JW’s wake up soon, especially the children that deserve better lives.
Now, Cedars: I am not “going anywhere with this. I merely state that in the US the burden of proof will lie with the DA. We do not know the nature of the “proof” of GB involvement because all he said was According to the motion the State will present an offer of proof regarding concealment of the crime by Lawrence and the “entire church body, most especially the governing body of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah Witnesses.” Everyone who has an opinion of the truth about this organization already knows that. But proving that the GB knew and acted directly in the Lawrence case are different items. This is a developing story. Perhaps they have an “insider” in Bethel who is going to “spill the beans”.
I regret if you think I was giving legal advice. I have forty or so years of experience in my careers dealing with the legal system as an outside professional but offer and meant to offer no legal advice to anyone, merely to offer a comment about how the US system must work. It is different in some aspects from the legal systems in other countries. It will also matter whether this is to become a criminal or merely a civil proceeding once others in the organization than Lawrence are involved. The world is a very long way from seeing anyone other than a circuit overseer testify regardless of what the newspaper reported.
As far as the letter and the elders’ book is concerned, I looked for hours to find a hard copy of the book on line. There were none when I looked so when I found it available for download I did so. But I state that I cannot be certain that either the letter or the book are “true” copies because they were scanned by someone I don’t know, at a site the location of which I don’t know and uploaded by people with clearly malevolent attitudes toward the Watchtower. That makes these “documents” entirely suspect. Now I don’t doubt for a moment that they are the real documents I was seeking, but the Internet itself it not at all secure and just because something appears on the Internet no matter how well presented means that it might not be entirely true.
The snide comment about MI-6, The Pentagon and my bank was beneath you. These organizations and other spend fortunes to make THEIR servers secure, but the Internet medium itself is insecure by design and hopefully it will remain that way so sites like yours can continue. I wonder how much you spend and how much time you take to make your site secure?
I now see someone has posted an admission by the Watchtower that the elders’ book is theirs. I will read that because that is the first time I have seen such an admission. But if that admission did not come from JW.org, then it came from somewhere else and the organization has firmly stated that only JW.org is their “official” website.
I don’t think it a stretch to say that anything that appears on the JW.org website is the truth…about what the organization believes and wishes the world to know about the organization. That, sir, is entirely different than saying that the website is a source of universal “TRUTH” about anything else: it merely reports what they think. And who are they? Why they are merely mortal men who enjoy their delusions and are followed by a few million others scattered around the earth.
Raymond Franz’s book, “Crisis of Conscience” has already established that the Governing Body of which he was a part, spent a lot of its time dealing with disfellowshipping matters. But that wasn’t the same governing body as this one, so it might be argued that this body knew nothing of the Lawrence matter. To what end? I have no idea. What I speculate to be the truth is irrelevant and only when the DA gets to present his “proof” in open court will anyone else know.
I am aware there are a lot of very angry, anti and former witnesses on this (and most other apostate) websites. I personally don’t care one way or another if this religion is dismembered, except that the line between criminal prosecution and governmental persecution on religious matters can be exceedingly thin and a slippery slope for any people to attempt to step upon.
I’ll make one more observation here. The reason I have read this site and posted here is because it appeared that your intent was to make a clear distinction between this site and others of similar nature where mere bashing and bashing of the JWs and their beliefs was the reason for existing. But your cheap sarcasm and near personal attacks on me indicates that perhaps you really want to confine the comments and membership of this site only to those who wish to vilify anything and anyone who is a believer or in any way connected with the JWs, and the organization especially. If so you should state that on your home page so anyone who might be interested in learning and discussing the truth about “The Truth” can spend their time elsewhere.
“What I speculate to be the truth is irrelevant ”
That is certainly true from my perspective if you speculate that the Governing Body is above the law in their decision-making so long as their personal signature cannot be found on documents related to matters in which their direction has nevertheless swayed the outcome. As “So glad to be out” has pointed out, the catholic church is increasingly being held liable for its mishandling of child abuse, and the Governing Body should be no different whether or not they personally signed off on the letters to the McAlester elders. For you to insist otherwise shows either a misunderstanding of what liability entails in a legal context, or (more disturbingly) wishful thinking that the further up the chain a person or persons are the more untouchable they should be. That this might be your attitude is quite unsettling to put it mildly.
Your continued whining about the “burden of proof” is entirely baffling. Neither I nor anyone else on this page has called into question whether the burden of proof rests with the DA, but you trumpet your concern over this issue to an extent that leads me to wonder whether you WANT there to be no proof against the Governing Body. I hope I’m wrong, but I struggle to analyze your comments and the way you have brought this “burden of proof” issue up without any external prompting and interpret your expressions differently.
As to your not-so-thinly veiled consternation over leaked Watchtower documents and their authenticity or lack thereof – I can again think of few reasons why you would adopt such an uber-skeptical approach without secretly wishing there to be secrecy as to Watchtower’s affairs. I know how the internet works and I am adept myself with Photoshop. You don’t need to tell me how easy it is to forge letters or even books. But whoever goes down that route runs the risk of immediately being called out the moment the letter or book is held against the original, thus instantly and decisively undermining that persons credibility. If you wish to assume the default position that if a Watchtower document is found on a website other than JW.org it MUST be bogus until proven otherwise, that is your prerogative. But you will struggle to find such a paranoid and narrow-minded outlook among readers of this site who have no interest in exaggerating the facts and embrace the fact that damning documents and books are constantly being leaked out of Watchtower’s corridors without any need to resort to forgery or misrepresentation.
I am sorry if you consider either myself or my website to have disappointed you, but frankly, the feeling is more than mutual.
Cedars, if I may jump in here, even though the society says that their remaining anonymous shows their humility, I for one, was increasingly freaked out to get letters from them with no signatures, only that stamp. And why wouldn’t a translator of scripture sign their work? Then the public would know who to address questions about the translation to! And I also really doubt that they can hide from their legal obligations by not signing important letters!!
Roger M. Woodbury
Whether the GB knew or not, is not important – In the same way the Catholic Church can be brought to court and be possibly held accountable, so can the Governing body.
The fact that they may be dragged into court is a starting place.
This article illustrates this
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/140206/polands-catholic-church-faces-first-paedophile-lawsuit
It also notes:
The United Nations on Wednesday condemned the Vatican for failing to stamp out child abuse and allowing systematic cover-ups, calling on the Church to remove clergy suspected of raping or molesting children.
Th Catholic Church has publicly apologised, no such apology has been forthcoming from the GB as yet.
I think Roger’s comment is balanced and it’s fair to question anything. And I’d like to remind that he’s not the only skeptical one, it’s not to be forgotten that being uber-skeptical allowed many to start questioning the Watchtower doctrines too and consequently see the discrepencies. Yes, it’s fair to question the accuracy of anything, specially over the internet.
Roger, on the other hand, my 2 cents, if anyone cares : This guy was reinstated in 2005. Also, it’s clear within the organization that there is a hierarchy and the authority that elders have to take any decision is organized within the organization, having the GB at the top. So for whatever they do, and the for the consequences … Wouldn’t GB be accountable ? The whole tree is their organization.
Secondly, about the opposing ideas spread over the Internet : I think one sees the puzzle when combining things. I would never make up my mind JUST by reading whatever book I downloaded on the internet. But when I cross-checking different documents and accounts, one gets a rather true picture, in my opinion.
I made the experience about the UN issue : I read anything I could find over the internet, and then I got in touch with a few JW’s and was directed to the material in defence to WTBTS’s position regarding this UN membership. Then I made up my mind, in light of all this.
For instance, there were “leaked” letters, but then when you see on JW site explaining (rather clumsily) why that letter was written as such, I could see that the letter was not a fake …
This said, anything on the internet can be fake, but with a complex net of exposed materials it would be more difficult to forge things rather than post genuine data.
I may still be wrong with my reasoning but, this is how I approach these things, not a legal point of view of course, but from a personal appreciation point of view.
JB, you said…
—–“I think Roger’s comment is balanced and it’s fair to question anything. And I’d like to remind that he’s not the only skeptical one, it’s not to be forgotten that being uber-skeptical allowed many to start questioning the Watchtower doctrines too and consequently see the discrepencies. Yes, it’s fair to question the accuracy of anything, specially over the internet.”
Oh I welcome skepticism – but there has to be a line between healthy skepticism and outright paranoia such as that which Roger seems to be recommending for reasons best known to himself. Otherwise you would be unable to trust absolutely anything you read in any form of media, be it books, magazines, or online material.
As to whether his comments are balanced you are entitled to your opinion, but I wouldn’t call it balanced to suggest the Governing Body are off the hook if the investigating authorities cannot demonstrate their personal involvement in the specific events of the Lawrence case. Why Roger seems intent on believing and extolling this view only he will know, but aside from utter ignorance of the legal process I am left with no other assumption than that he WANTS the Governing Body to be found innocent, and “out of the heart’s abundance his mouth speaks.”
It’s very simple. The DA simply has to demand a copy of the shepherding book.
There is no way that the GB can avoid the responsibility for the wording in that document. They have to authorise things through committees, of which at least one GB is a member.
There is no excuse.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Perhaps Cedars is being as protective as an open forum such as this one he’s created will allow for. When JWs comment posing as outsiders it can confuse people.
Erik – that’s the problem. JWs routinely comment posing as outsiders in the hope that their perceived impartiality will give their comments in support of the organization greater credibility. It’s sad that they need to resort to such trickery, but probably they see it as theocratic warfare. I’m not saying Roger definitely is a JW – only that I always take it with a pinch of salt whenever people make comments that are sympathetic to the organization (or, as in this case, reminiscent of its rhetoric) having denied any affiliation. The proof will always be in the pudding.
I had one such long exchange with a guy calling himself Podobear in the Comments section of the Essex Chronicle. I still don’t know whether he had indeed left the organisation. He was clearly of a very disturbed state of mind. I always remind these non JW (real or bogus) JW sympathisers that unless they are fully signed up as baptised Kingdom Hall attending door knocking JWs then the real JWs cannot wait for Jehovah to murder them at some imminent Armageddon.
A variant is the mention of some non JW medics who admire the murderous JW ban blood transfusion. Again a reminder that medics of all descriptions (save the JW ones) are on the point of being divinely zapped by Jehovah in order that a paradise where medics are no longer needed can be established.
More than once this has brought howls of protest from JWs about nasty murderous posts and comments from JW enemies. So many JWs seem tragically unaware that they look forward to an orgy of mass murder.
Cedars I agree with the fact that GB cannot get off the hook. And I don’t think that any particular artifact, just for this case is even necessary. One would ask where the elders got their authority from for the decisions they take. I think things will inevitably bubble up to the GB.
If a company is involved in some kind of a corruption, the first guy people would like to find is the one who’s running the place.
JB: If only that were true! Sadly, we in the US are getting accustomed to watching guilty people get away with murder.
Those in power are not held accountable for their actions.
YES! We all want to see the people at the top answer for their decisions. Not to be pessimistic, but have you ever heard the expression, “S**t rolls downhill?” That is what has been happening in JW world for decades. Even if the GB does have to face some criminal investigation (thats a big IF), the rank and file JW will see it as a sign of persecution and proof that they need to work harder & donate more money to vindicate the name of “Jehovah’s organization.”
If the “faithful and discreet slave” is under attack, it will only prove to them that Satan is lashing out at Jehovah’s organization, as the end of this wicked system is obviously “SO CLOSE NOW!” They will be even more prepared and groomed to obey the instructions that are evidently being foretold. They will once again “adjust their understanding,” and those in power will just have more control.
What I would like to see, is for these cases to get more national news coverage. Get a major network to expose the truth about this organization that claims to be doing “God’s will.”
But JW’s put on their new personalities and pretend to be normal people. Unlike the Amish, or polygamist Mormons, they seem to go about their business as if they are just overzealous “Christians” who go door-to-door. They fly under the radar, and the general public just isn’t interested.
My comments are not intended to shed any shadow of doubt on the guilt of the GB in destroying countless lives. I just think it’s going to be difficult to convict anyone of a crime. (it is supposed to be…)
Someday, they will face their judgment, and will be destroyed as the “weeds” they truly are… it would be a glorious day to see them all fall from their thrones, with the whole world watching.
This whole organization needs to be dismantled. The tower must crumble. Thanks for all your efforts to keep us informed, Cedars!
Yes I would wholeheartedly concur. We are warned about Elders who fail in their duties to serve to congregation. This warning come from the Holy Scriptures which are approved by GOD, and GOD sees into the hearts of all men.
I believe that the bottom line is that the GB, while trying patience of all true and genuine Witnesses, are simply sign their own spiritual DEATH WARRANT!
For it will be those that Jehovah will turn aside from saying that…..I DO NOT KNOW YOU!
Faithful Witness, I totally agree. If the hardship would come because of, for instance, neutrality, one might think about persecution. At the end, it may be considered as a “matter of conscience” and JW’s being limited in their freedom could be seen as persecution. And actually, JW’s are not the only ones, for example, refusing the military service for conscience reasons.
I join you on the expectation (and anxiety) that any issues regarding the child abuse cases would still be considered as the same kind of persecution. After all F&DS is always right, so whatever comes against them is from Satan, in the minds of many witnesses.
I still check out JW.org every now and then. The other day I come across the question “Is Bible God’s Word ?”. A subject of interest for me. So I checked it out what JW.org says.
This question, about which there are hundreds of volumes, dealing with many theories, historical facts etc … On JW.org in that particular section, I see … a few biblical texts saying this or that was “inspired” ! If we go with that logic, the number of texts inspired by God is limitless. For instance, this forum post, was inspired too. Because on this paragraph I say so …
I think even a 12 year old would see issues with this approach. Seeing this, the organization’s reserves to higher education comes quite unwelcome to me. In such a context, people wouldn’t hesitate believing about the “persecution” because those child abuse cases make so much echo and maybe they risk bubbling up to the GB … Quite a number of people wouldn’t stop and say “hold on a second, they’re talking about child abuse here !!!”.
This said, I’m prepared to accept the idea of persecution if the above case, and all the others going on (including some, for which WT lost the case) are proven to be a huge conspiracy against WT. As long as it’s the truth, I’d be happy if WT Society cannot be blamed. But it looks very very bad, and so far it seems WT doesn’t have strong arguments.
There is just one thing I don’t understand … What do all these religious organizations have against children ? I mean, they could steal from the contributions and close eyes on it. Why don’t they leave those kids in peace ? Until I started hearing about these cases, I thought child molestation was a “marginal” crime. It’s horrible to see there are so many of those weirdos, specially in churches, etc …
JB: I am familiar with how it feels to be a child on the receiving end of adult manipulation. I also know how hard it is to come out and tell your parents, when you are part of something shameful with an adult.
My story is like that of many. An adult male neighbor talked me into doing lude and disgusting things with him when I was 8. I was not a JW, but it still took me 6 years before I “confessed” to my mother. I only told her about it, because she directly asked me if I would tell her if something like that ever happened to me.
I also know that 3 of my sisters were sexually abused. I heard of these tales, after we were all adults. They never told my mother about what happened (and one of them was a violent rape).
Sadly, this manipulation and abuse of children is rampant in society. I’m not sharing these tales to gain sympathy, but just share personal experience. Did these things happen to us because we were not JW’s? NO! Because we were children, unprepared to face adult situations. JW’s are human beings, they are all sinners. Some humans have the sick desire to control and abuse children for sexual pleasure.
Becoming a JW does not prevent this sin (CRIME) from occurring… but it does appear to make it easier to cover it up! You can rely on your “brothers” to both judge and protect you from the law and even from revealing your sins to the parents of other children who may be vulnerable to your sick and uncontrolled perversions.
It is very hard to tell anyone when things happen to you. Even today, I feel ashamed giving an anonymous and vague recount of my experiences! I am over 40 years old. I still feel as though I am guilty for what happened.
Add to this, the pressure, fear and guilt that is imposed on children being raised in the JW church. They are forced to sit through talks about the dangers fornication and adultery, listen to descriptions of what will happen to those wicked ones at armageddon. They are now also being told to suspect members of their own congregation: NOT to suspect them of child abuse, but to suspect them of disagreeing or questioning the edicts from the Governing Body!
Children in the JW religion have a slim chance of survival. I applaud stories of escape, like the one Cedars shared with us. His experience is going to make him a great and protective father. I hope that someday my 12-year old niece will wake up and walk away from this soul-strangling cult. She is a beautiful young girl, and I really love and miss her.
Here is a big kicker for me. About 3 years ago, before my mother was baptized into the JW’s, I asked her why the JW’s did not report child molesters to authorities. I asked how they could justify using the “2 witness rule,” when dealing with such a serious crime. When I mentioned it, she was outraged and went to her elders to find out what they would say. (Because of our past, she still feels guilty for never taking any action against her good friend who molested my younger sister and me). She came back a couple of days later with a reply that make no sense to me, but had clearly eased her mind. She was comforted to know that the elders were caring for the congregation. I questioned her a little bit, but it was clear at that time, that they had “gotten to her.”
When I read about the verdict in favor of Candace Conti, I told my (now JW) mother about it. I told her how the society had been ordered to pay millions of dollars to Candace, for their involvement in covering up the crimes. I reminded her that child abuse is a CRIME not a sin. My dad apparently had already heard of the case, because he made the comment that the WTS was appealing the decision. I told my mother how many more cases were coming forward. Her reply broke my heart: “If they are giving away millions of dollars, no wonder more people are coming forward!”
I merely said, “Are you going to blame the victims or the perpetrators and conspirators? That is your money, Mom!”
I know this was long, but I guess the point I am making is this…
It takes extreme courage to come forward about child sexual abuse, even without the intimidation tactics that these poor children face week after week. Any victim who has been brave enough to come forward against the almighty power of “Jehovah’s organization,” has to be a very strong individual. I can’t imagine taking my case to a worldly court… I am in awe of the strength displayed by anyone brave enough to stand up to the Watchtower, disclosing something so personal to the world and your “brothers.” We can only imagine what they had to go through to get this far.
If you are a JW and reading this, you should be asking yourself one very simple question here:
WHY the silence, coming from the Tower?
If they are innocent, why do they not defend themselves against accusations made against them?
They refuse to comment and give their side of the story.
News agencies who report LIES about someone, are subject to punishment and fines in court. If these stories are lies, why does the WTS not take the journalists to court? Don’t they want to vindicate the name of Jehovah’s organization?
Ask your elders why they are holding a secret book, that gives them instructions about YOU and your life? Look at this from an outside perspective for just a moment… or even from the inside… what if you were the helpless child in this situation, with nowhere to go for help?
JW’s need to stand up and start demanding that their leaders take some accountability for their decisions. Who will protect the children, if YOU will not?? Read the writing, written all over the walls of the Tower!
The governing body does not care about the least of you!
Child abuse is a serious crime! Please, wake up!
Jesus loved the children most of all… why do you remain so COLD to them, ignoring their cries?
Faithful Witness, I am so sorry to read about what you’ve gone through. I am unable to imagine what you felt then and now, but at the same time, I admire you how you dealt with it and the courage you have to express yourself about this.
I can also imagine, your mom’s situation when talking to elders. In a situation where people know how to talk to you with mildness, you can’t keep up an argument and gradually one feels sucked into the subject the way they want.
Thank you for your reply, I humbly read your account. And the latest point your raised is very appropriate too.
Having served as an Elder for 9 years, including a number as the Secretary, i have seen 1st hand of the cover ups of child abuse, when the local police issued a search warrant on the kingdom hall files, the letter that exposed the crimes was missing, i later found out that another elder under instruction from the branch had removed it & hidden the letter, i was then told by the society’s lawyer that if i was ordered to court, be prepeared to go to prison if i remained silent, it never got to that as they had enough evidence to prosecute anyway.
Forgive me for asking this, but how does your conscience handle the fact that you are knowingly covering up a crime against a child? I know you were following instructions, but at what point does human reason and responsibility set in, and cause you to think about your actions?
I’m not blaming you now, but I am curious what goes through the mind of a Christian man, when they are instructed to lie and cover up a crime of abuse against a child.
I’m also wondering if your inside knowledge and experience would be helpful in cases that are being brought forward today. I am horrified to read admissions like these!
Why don’t you come forward today, and tell the police or district attorney what kinds of things are probably still happening today in Kingdom Halls across the country (world)?? Not trying to put you on the defensive, as we do understand you are merely “following orders,” but where does it stop?
It seems my last comment didnt make it, so here goes, the morning i received the phone call re the police search was the 1st i had heard of it. During the search the police soon realised that when someone new moves in then a letter follows for their old congo, this letter was missing, as i said i found out latter that it had been hidden under direction from the branch, he was arrested anyway & went to court where he was convicted, so no need to do anything else, i latter served on a panel at an elders school where the subject was child abuse, & in particular how to handle someone comming into congo who had offended in the past, the direction was to keep it quiet, my problem that i voiced was that if the person re offended then we would be just as guilty, i told them i would not do that, the CO said that you would keep a close eye on them, thats impossible as you cant watch someone 24 hours a day, i have seen other stuff that sickens me, i no longer serve as an elder, but continue to be an active JW.
So, Warren, you continue as an active JW. Perhaps you could explain why you believe that the bulk of the world’s population deserves to be murdered by God in the near future, for the capital crime of not believing and behaving as you do.
Woah, easy there Rowland!
Warren, I notice you have only posted twice and we don’t want to scare you away. But I believe Rowland is asking in his own inimitable style why you are still an active JW (i.e. engage in the preaching work) if you believe the organization is harmful and/or false?
In the comments in the Essex Chronicle about the proposed new WT HQ in Chelmsford , a JW apologist, (I believe he is a practising and believing JW) accues me of being violent and blood thirsty when referring to Armageddon as mass murder for the crime of having the wrong opinions and associations.
There is this tendency, it seems, for JWs somehow to overlook the intrinsic horror and violence that Armageddon is all about. Ex JWs and JW expositors have not concocted the imminent Armageddon scenario. It is the central obsession of the whole JW movement.
…based on bible prophesies, perhaps on very biased and literal interpretations, but not completely made up. Many religions teach a form of this; remember the “Left Behind” stories?
That is one of many problems with the Bible and Koran. They both have a grand finale of a mad murderous Judgement Day. It was big in mediaeval Catholic Europe, but its stronghold is now with American Protestants of a range of stripes. Broadly benign churches, like Anglicans and Methodists have largely sidelined that stuff, along with a lot of other Bible nonsense, but their very ceremonial reverence for the Bible lends legitimacy to the fundies who actually believe it.
Warren,
This is the double whammy! Decent chaps like you stand down as elders (rightly so!) and who replaces you? Some lickspittle cretin who WILL cover up the abuse! Remember, one of your brothers hid that letter!
It’s time for all of us to show who we are. We cannot allow the continued abuse of women and children in a so called Christian organisation.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Warren, a truth seeking movement deserves more of people like you instead of a good part of their current “shepards” and – I’m sad to find out through evidence I see – its Governing Body.
Rowland I of course am not Warren, but permit me to answer as well. I have always known good and wicked people were everywhere, in and out of JWs. I never believed God was going to destroy anyone who hadn’t had every chance to learn truths… I was well aware that the bible leaves those decisions to God, not us. A favorite elder friend would say he felt that many will be surprised at who is in paradise and who isn’t. God is love. So not all JWs look forward to watching most of the world’s people get destroyed, that’s the type of emotional argument I cringe when I hear. There are so many better ones we can use. Thank you for letting me express myself here.
It is a pity, then, that the JW publications, (the product of God’s self proclaimed exclusive earthly rep.,) remind their readers regularly that the only route to salvation is through themselves, ‘The Faithful and Discreet Slave’.
. ‘Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19 .
I had ‘every chance to learn truths’ , Jehovah’s Witness style ‘TRUTHS’, that is, not ‘truths’ in their commonly understood sense. I was taught, as a child at my local Kingdom Hall, for example, that Armageddon was definitely due before the end of the 20th century. I have rejected that particular TRUTH.
So, Erik, given that I had the chance, presumably you now believe that I am fair game for Armageddon execution.
It would appear that if you believe salvation is purely in the hands of God, then, if you are a Jehovah’s Witness, you are in the wrong bit of Christendom.
Further, if you imagine that the ever changing flip flopping arrogant horrors churned out by the WT printing presses are ‘Truths’, then your compassion for your fellow humans is rendered utterly hollow.
Please explain, Erik.
1. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?
2. If you are why do you apparently reject your Governing Body’s claim that they hold the keys to salvation?
3. Do you believe that those of us who have attended the Kingdom Hall and thus received ‘Bible Truths’ and later rejected them, deserve Armageddon annihilation?
4. Do you believe that all who have consistently closed the door on JW doorknockers, have rejected the chance to hear ‘truths’, and thus deserve Armageddon annihilation?
Best wishes Erik. Some answers would be welcome.
Sorry, I’m a bit tired but I just saw this and I do want to try to answer some… I was able to be a JW and also attempt to think for myself. I think maybe I just taught myself to deliberately ignore statements from the articles etc. that did not make sense to me, compared with what I could read for myself in the bible. JWs are constantly told to be loving and overlook mistakes. I probably did that too much. I also felt more comfortable hanging out with the kind of JWs who didn’t mind talking about things that we didn’t ‘get’ or wonder about. As far as delighting in the ‘death of the wicked’, I clearly remember sharing that I hoped I’d be dead before anything like in some of those scriptures happened! And my JW friend stated that she wanted to be there to see it. When I asked why, she said it was so she would “always remember Jehovah’s power.” I just shook my head, not me. But why can’t I have my own take on my own JW experience? I’m sorry if I criticized yours. I understand the suspicion that JWs may pretend on here to try to defend their faith. I just never wanted to see anyone destroyed, that’s all.
Thanks Erik. So, if I read you right, you find the JW line that all who do not live according to the Gov. Bod’s every diktat, deserve an Armageddon execution as repulsive and ridiculous as I do. Therefore you must now be an ex JW, if not in outward form, certainly in heart and spirit.
‘I just never wanted to see anyone destroyed, that’s all.’ wrote Erik.
That is a noble sentiment, Erik, but one utterly incompatible with the teaching of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Their central obsession, their entire raison d’être, is looking forward to, and warning of the imminence of Armageddon.
The Watchtower exists purely, respecting those willing and believing adult members, whatever their proportion, for those who want to see, who look forward to seeing, the bulk of the world’s population destroyed.
If this notion repels you, Erik, it is either refreshing to see that the JWs are now part of your past, or perplexing to understand why or how you continue to associate with them.
I am questioning your reasoning. Most bible students are entranced by the concept of everlasting life on a paradise earth. Not excited about the hope that good people will die horrible deaths. I accuse you of using wholly inaccurate and unneccesay dram to make your point. You are like the north wind who only gets the man to cling more tightly to the tree; and not the sun who gets the man to take of his heavy coat and walk away free. I’m done here because I have a lot more to do. Namaste Rowland. We shall meet again.
I wouldn’t like to digress from this thread’s initial subject, but I hope one of these days there’ll be a blog post related to the “judgement day”, I would have a few words about it …
Why did you not go to the police with the evidence that the letter had been removed and the order had come from the branch? If they did it once they’ve done it before and will so it again.
You’re not free of guilt on this matter. By your inaction you’ve enabled future crimes against children to take place.
I didn’t mean to start blaming anyone who was brave enough to share some secrets about the inner workings of the society!
I don’t think we should attack someone who is opening their mind enough to visit and comment on this message board. The blame for their horrific policies against children, should be directed at where all the rules and threats come from.
While there is guilt on the hands of everyone in between the GB and the rare victim that is courageous enough to come forward, remember where the true culpability lies…
The leaders of this cruel organization need to stand up and answer for themselves. It’s too bad that someone who knows inside information like this, can’t be helpful in a current case. The burden of proof is pretty steep, and it makes me sick to my stomach to say that the GB will most likely never have to stand before a judge in court.
I have never been a JW myself, but anyone who has can likely tell you that they have a way of getting you to do things that “make no sense from a human standpoint.” It’s been happening for decades, and their grips are (evidently) only tightening around the necks of the elders and overseers that are serving today. They are clearly grooming them for something even bigger, with instructions coming soon.
It’s not fair to blame the middleman. I feel like I might have started it, but I was just trying to understand the rationale behind cooperating in a conspiracy against an innocent child. Let’s not judge…
Rowland,
Please stop attacking people like a pit bull all the time. Yes, there are parts of the bible that are disgusting. It was written in the Bronze Age, when everyone was a git.
I agree with your posts, but I do believe that you are getting ever more aggressive.
Don’t get me wrong. I understand your fury. I admit I share it. But we need to temper our words with a little mildness.
I guess that you were a JW at some time? Do you really have no regrets? Didn’t you do something unkind, cowardly at some point? I know, to my shame, that I did.
I didn’t help cover up child abuse or anything like that. But I did do things that I am ashamed of now. I must take responsibility for those acts.
These folks are coming out of a cult. They need to be treated with compassion.
If they have a case to answer, then they will answer it.
I share your anger at the WTBTS. We need to find a way to express our disgust in a positive way.
Finally, it is possible to be a JW and still be a decent human being. My dear old Mum is an example. She doesn’t follow all of the WTBTS rules. She tries her best to be a good Christian. I think that we can all respect her for that, regardless of our personal beliefs.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
I get your point, Excelsior. My childhood was spent uder a cloud of imminent Armageddon as a JW. I was never baptised and was an ex JW by my late teens. Bible fundiness, however, lingered for ages after I remember some pleasant and decnt people at my childhood Kingdom Hall.
It irritates me, no end, to have JWs accusing me of hate and violence when I wish JWs freedom from the mallign control of their cult bosses, whereby to live a full an rewarding life.
They, however, by virtue of being JWs, if they really believe all the guff, look forward to the day that God murders me along with the greater part of the world’s population.
I wish JWs well. They wish me and billions of others an imminent violent death. Where is the aggression?
Test, i am having trouble posting a comment
Warren, if you’re having issues involving a “duplicate comment” error message, try changing the contents of your message “adding a few spaces, etc” and repost it.
Erik, I really enjoy reading comments from JW’s like yourself, who seem to have an open mind.
Please don’t feel you have to answer my question but, do you think there are some things “hard to understand” about the teachings and different procedures, methods and rules in the organization or do you sense some things “quite wrong” or “seriously wrong” ?
I have been considering the organization lately, after many years that I was “away”, and I have been trying to remain neutral, or even give some benefit of symphathy for good people I know. But being “outside” allows you to see things from a different angle. With the availability of information combined to this different angle, what I saw makes me feel that things are seriously wrong. Not with people, many of them are good people and some others would just believe what you give them. But the way those people are guided towards, seems quite awkward to me.
For me the child abuse issues are unforgivable issues for the organization. I will never associate with an organization who, directly or indirectly, cover up with one of the most hideous crimes. Such an attitude has no place in a paradise concept I make myself.
I think the organization never got it right, but it doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be an organization driving towards its advertized purpose. I just have quite strong impressions that the “slave has been beating his fellow slaves”.
It may or may not be others’ impression, and of course, I might be totally wrong.
Thanks, Rowland.
I do not believe that every JW is rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of our deaths at Armageddon.
My dear old Mum certainly doesn’t.
You are right though. There are many (I have met them myself) who are like that. Indeed, we have had comments on this site to that effect.
I am, apparently, an apologist for evil!
I value your comments and we share a desire to see the WTBTS answer for its many crimes.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Thanks Excelsior. You are right. Most JWs seen to focus on the Paradise Earth with its freedom from disease and war, as well as its vegetarian pet lions, eternal youth and the rest.
Hence they get so upset and distraught when reminded that this fantasy vision is dependent on the equally fantastical Armageddon. And Armageddon is all about murder, violence and mega death.
When I remind JWs that this is their vision, their central obsession for which they forsake what they call ‘The World’ (of which they are, of course an integral part for all that they pretend they are not) they round on me and accuse me of being full of violence and hate!
This is ridiculous; as I wish JWs a life free of the malign control of the JW bosses. They wish me, and the bulk of the world’s population, an imminent violent death.
Rowland, do the today’s murders perpetrated on a daily basis upon defenseless and innocent people make you revolt as much as the prospective Armagueddon killings ?
We can discuss about whether it’s to be taken literally or not, but unless we’d critisize the very belief in Bible, I think it’s to be considered that one doesn’t find sweet words about the “End” in there.
And today’s world is not sweeter than that of an Armagueddon neither, and the fact that we’re better of than many doesn’t change anything to it.
We can always critisize the accuracy of beliefs but the “need” that triggered them seems to be quite valid.
JB – So many societies have shared this fantasy about a sweeping a way of the baddies, whence a new world of justice, peace and prosperity will emerge. Most of us have belonged to one or more groups of these ‘baddies’. Here’s a few: Jews, the Irish, aristocrats, the bourgeoisie, non Jehovah’s Witnesses, White men (the Ghost Dance), Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Infidels, Immigrants, Gays…..
Meanwhile humanity has aggregately become better fed, more peaceful and just. This does not seem to affect the varied minorities of miseryguts doomsters however.
As to belief in the Bible. I believe it can tell us quite a lot about the culture of some peoples in the Eastern Mediterranean between c. 1000 BC and 100 AD. As a guide to history it is unreliable; as a moral code, despite afew isolated bits in, say, some Proverbs or the Sermon on the Mount, it is now quite primitive and in many instances utterly barbaric.
Re. Armageddon, the Bible can tell us nothing, zilch, zero about the future.
As to today’s real murders and violence (as opposed to the Jehovah delivered fantasy mega massacre) there is much work yet to be done to continue to develop a yet more peaceful world.
A totally useless approach to the problem would be to pretend you are no part of the world and to gather thrice weekly in a plain little room to listen to boring men in boring suits give boring Bible based boring talks about how, by virtue of sitting in said boring room, one has no responsibility towards the world’s problems, because a fantasy figure called Jehovah will sort them all out by simply murdering everyone who chooses not to gather in said boring rooms to listen to boring Bible based talks by boring men in boring suits.
JB-I think I like your comments too. This thread isn’t a good safe place for me to talk (see the above…”drama”?). If there is another way I will connect with you. I like the idea of anyone being able to come here to read and consider, in whatever mental and emotional place they are at. I feel like there is an attacker here hovering, judging, ready to unleash himself on me, and anyone else he judges adversely. But other than that, yes, I am interested in your posts too, thank you.
Excellent description, Erik:
‘I feel like there is an attacker here hovering, judging, ready to unleash himself on me, and anyone else he judges adversely.’
You describe very clearly how I felt about Jehovah, back in childhood days when I went to the Kingdom Hall.
This was, of course, before I had studied the Bible and realised that the JW Jehovah monster was merely a perverse fantasy figure dreamed up by controlling and fallible mortals.
Thank you so much Erik. If you are on some site (forum, etc) where direct messages can be sent, I think I could get in touch with you if I know your moniker.
Or maybe I can ask Cedars or the admin to pass my email address to you. Normally they have both our emails internally.
Cheers
Rowland, I think you and I do agree on the essential : Within our souls we have an ideal of a peaceful, happy world. We know that it’s not what we see around us. I’m quite sure the majority, or even the totality of the human race “knows” about the good and desires it. John Lennon got really poetic about this and many people seem to be touched by his expression about a wonderful world (and BTW, a wonderful without “religion”, as he says). It looks like it’s an ideal we as humans are quite familiar with.
The diverging ideas we have are – and they both deserve consideration of course – regarding who should realize this. If you don’t mind, we can debate on this further. With total respect to your opinion, I believe we as humans cannot achieve this.
No matter who would achieve this, needs to have full control on humanity in a way to keep them, not passive for evil, but active for good. Unless the humanity undergoes a metamorphosis and they all become totally dedicated for goodness, I can’t figure this out, without deaths. I am not using a thought like “oh, for thousand years they never managed that” … I think it’s a more fundamental issue. If we appointed you for instance, as the overall responsible for a peaceful world, and I happen to get tempted to steal from my neighbour, you’d have to kill me … That would be fine, however, how appropriate it would be, for you, a human being, to kill me, another human being. How confident you can be that your judgement was flawless ?
So I think we need a superior standard and rules, and someone above to govern “perfectly”, to create a law for us to stick to and …. obey. Man obeying man is wrong (in my opinion). But here I’m digressing it towards a divinity idea.
Now, I have just one argument to add about “not being part of the world”. In this matter, neutrality doesn’t work. If we are for a status quo, it would make us an active supporter of whatever is out there today. Everyone “takes a stand”. This is why I’m asking, is it OK that today people suffer. And I don’t doubt a single moment that you’re as disturbed by this today as I am.
But it requires more than that, it’s vital to be active against this wicked order in place today.
Now comes the religion part … Someone awaiting this intervention from God, would be “active” against the evil system through “their” ways. Having an earthly paradise ideal and preaching about it could be a manner doing this.
I guess it’s everyone’s task to find which way, but everyone is to take a stand.
Let me digress just once more towards religion : I personally think, some biblical interpretations are off target. Noah’s flood story or Lot escaping Sodom & Gomorrah sound like La Fontaine fables … Likewise, I think the main idea is not proving that there was a blackbird and fox in conversation as much as a worldwide flood can be scientifically proven …
What was the La Fontaine’s message ? And what was the flood story’s message about people “eating and drinking, and continuing with their lives” or Lot’s wife’s nostalgy to her great life in Sodom.
OK, so man is imperfect, and setting society straight is bloody difficult. But we only have ourselves. All our moral standards, Bible, Koran, Avesta, Bhagavad Gita or any other ‘Holy Book’ based morals, are made by fallible mortals. Sitting about imagining there ought to be a God to improve our world is an utter copout.
Warren,
I, too, have trouble posting using the Reply link. Try posting from Leave a Reply at the bottom of this page.
I’m a little curious about the reason you continue to be active after stepping down as an elder.
Rowland, I think I’m still in agreement with you on the essential. I also think that sitting and watching is not correct.
I’m in agreement that it’s necessary to go after what we know as good, actively. And honestly, even that apparently simple thing is far from being granted. However, no matter what our beliefs are, the good thing I see in this is that our day to day objectives would remain the same and the result of our good actions would be quite similar.
Some people would see their efforts as an attempt to change the world and to make it a better place to live, some others would still wait for God to sort things out and they’d only want to prove that they would deserve being called righteous people. No matter what each person’s objectives are, the positivity they radiate would be similar and that would be so much different from what we often see in this world.
I see much positivity and action. That is why, as a child who, then as now, loved life, wished that I had never been introduced to ‘THE TRUTH’. (As a kid I was thoroughly taken in by all the JW BS). JWs’ target market is the lost, lonely and hopeless who may be beguiled by the absurdity of an instant God given makeover. The eternal youth, fruit picking (as opposed to planting, pruning, genetic research, sorting, packing, weighing and delivering, all the ‘worldly tasks necessary to produce fruit in this wicked Satanic and ultimately condemned system of things), pet lions and other idiocies are the emotional carrot, and Armageddon murder the stick. I do not know whether it was part of the official Brooklyn issued jargon, but my Bible study lady would often come out with the phrase ‘We’re not here to patch up the Old World, we have to prepare for the new’. (i.e. door knocking with a bag of mags, attending endless dreary old KH meetings). Official or no that is the disgusting, irresponsible and negative spirit that pervades the whole of JWdom. I certainly hope the days of that misery making, money grabbing and obscene little cult are approaching their end.
I can relate Rowland, I have been having “Armagueddon nightmares” for so many years myself … When human beings interfere too much about the conscience and try to explain (and impose) subjects that are often beyond our understanding, as if they knew better, this is what we get.
It’s my most sincere wish that, honest people really keen on finding their “spiritual way” – no matter where their honest research leads them, live without any pressure and control on them, as happily as possible.
Armageddon is simply a cruel fantasy exploited by the Watchtower bosses for control purposes. Whatever the Bible writers meant it to mean, remember that the Bible is a fallible man made book for millenia ago and can tell us nothing about the future.
Mandelay, i stood down as an elder, theirs an old saying, you eith jump or get pushed, i jumped, my behavour was a problem, as for all this death stuff, where in the bible does it say that if you don’t preach you will die, where does it say that if you don’t get baptised you are going to die?
No where, so how can wittnesses judge people who are in that situation, they can’t.
As far as the Governing Body having to testify in court, there is a precedence from 1954. They testified in court, among other things, about the accuracy of the New World Translation of the Bible. Here is a transcript of the trial, although some pages are difficult to read due to old typewriter keys.
http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/court-of-scotland/the-1954-walsh-trial-transcript/ebook/product-834182.html
You can d/l the 768 page transcript at LuLu for free. Just put it in your basket and check-out with zero balance.
For those who still believe in Jehovah and Jesus, I have found a site that is devoted to a deep discussion of Bible truths. I am coming to a better understanding of the Bible and I find it comforting to hear from elders, both out and some still in, as well as the rank and file. I have longed for a loving and compassionate fellowship and this is like a meeting I can attend any time I want to:
http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/16/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-17-2014/
The current discussion includes who should partake of the emblems at Memorial.
Cedars, I truly appreciate your hard work in keeping us informed about current matters pertaining to the GB and JWs. I always look forward to your posts.
Imacountrygirl, many thanks for posting the link. The second one looks very interesting !
How funny they really believe they’re future angels. Satan is the defender of rott.. The only thing that everyone should be thankful for is the GB’s tree is blooming and isnt looking good. We should be thankful Jesus left A clue when he said “By thier fruits you will reconize them.”(Matt 7:15-20)