Breaking News: Watchtower Surrenders and Settles in Lopez Lawsuit
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Longtime readers of JW Survey will be aware of the ongoing lawsuit against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society from Jose Lopez.

Lopez is one of a number of abuse survivors who was assaulted as a child by Jehovah’s Witness Gonzalo Campos, who Lopez claims was able to abuse him partly due to negligence from the Watchtower organisation.

It was claimed that Watchtower knew Campos was an abuser and a danger to children, yet failed to inform the authorities of Campos’ attacks on children or warn the parents in the congregations in which Campos resided. Compos was even allowed to act as a mentor and Bible study teacher to Lopez.

Lopez filed a lawsuit against the religion six years ago and Watchtower, rather than settle the suit, decided to fight it in a court of law. However, news has just been released in the Sandiego Reader that Watchtower have abandoned their legal defence and have agreed to settle the case.

This is not only a victory for abuse survivor Jose Lopez, but is also a humiliating climb down for Watchtower after six years of hearings that have been, to put it plainly, brutal and bruising for the religion in financial and PR terms.

Watchtower in Court: A financial and PR disaster

Over the course of these hearings we have seen astonishing and appalling behaviour from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society; behaviour that many faithful witnesses would struggle to reconcile with the benevolent image of the religion’s leadership that they have in their heads.

For example, we saw Governing Body member Gerrit Losch make astonishing claims in order to escape testifying; writing a letter to the court essentially stating that he had nothing to do with the Watchtower organisation. Watchtower also came under heavy legal and media fire related to its now infamous database of Witness child abusers.

For those not familiar, Watchtower possesses a database of every accused and confessed child molester who has been a member of the religion. Watchtower has admitted to the existence of this database in court cases like this one, and the Australian Branch of the religion was forced to make public its part of the database in 2015 by the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex Abuse. The ARC found that of the 1006 Australian abusers contained within, none had been reported to the police by Watchtower and many had gone on to abuse repeatedly. Obviously, access the US database would be pivotal to Lopez in proving a pattern of negligence from Watchtower and thus proving his claims in this suit.

The court agreed and ordered Watchtower to produce its database.

Watchtower refused, at first making weak excuses that production was impossible due to technical reasons, excuses that failed to stand up in court. Afterwards Watchtower simply folded their arms and point blank refused to co-operate with instructions from the court.

As a result of Watchtower’s blatant refusal to comply with valid orders, the Judge terminated Watchtower’s defence and awarded Lopez $13.5 million in damages. Watchtower later appealed this judgment and won, but only because the appeal Judges felt that less punitive sanctions should have been levied on Watchtower first. The appeal Judges completely agreed with the trial Judge that Watchtower absolutely had to produce these documents, and that continued refusal should result in termination sanctions and a punishing financial award against them. Watchtower, however, was making it clear that it still had no intention of producing the documents. It had looked as though the legal battles would continue, but events were taking place in another court case that would possibly prove pivotal in the outcome of this one.

Watchtower’s database: Secrecy at all costs

Another survivor of the Gonzalo Campos attacks, Osblado Padron, has launched an identical suit against Watchtower, and his case is also going through the court system. It too was blocked at the issue of the database; Padron’s team had demanded it, the court had agreed that it must be produced, and Watchtower had point blank refused.

This time, rather than terminate sanctions and award the case to Padron, the Judge tried the lesser sanctions that had been recommended in the Lopez case, fining Watchtower $4000 a day until it complied with the order, and making it clear that this figure could start going up if Watchtower continued to refuse. Watchtower appealed this decision.

For a whilst both cases have been going through appeal, but in November a final ruling was made in the issue the $4000 a day fine Padron case:

Watchtower lost.

You can see the JW Survey team discuss this ruling in the video below

 

So in the Padron case, whatever else happens, Watchtower knows it has a choice. Face escalating legal and financial penalties (currently over $2 million and rising) and probably lose the case anyway, or produce a database of secret child molesters that looked set to sink its case and possible do horrific damage to its public reputation. The Padron case is still ongoing, but the fact that only two months after this judgement, Watchtower has abandoned its guns and settled the identical Lopez case is, to my mind, very telling.

Though the details of the settlement are closed, the circumstances point towards a figure that will not have been in Watchtower’s favour to say the least as the religion clearly knew it was not negotiating from a position of strength in this matter. Irwin Zalkin, Lopez’s lawyer, probably had an open goal to shoot for given the legal, financial and PR massacre that awaited Watchtower in open court should they refuse a settlement offer.

In conclusion I think we have two important takeaways; firstly that in the matter of the Campos cases, Watchtower’s choice to fight the survivors in court has proven both to be financially painful, legally incompetent and a disaster in PR terms. The religion has, in my opinion, come across as both incompetent and cruel in its handling of child abuse accusations and in the treatment of survivors. I’m curious to see now what happens with the Padron case, and whether Watchtower will even try to fight other such cases in future, and it’s very hard to see how Watchtower could ever claim that Jehovah was guiding or blessing its actions in this matter given the debacle it became.

But secondly and most importantly of all I am so very happy for Jose Lopez. He has been through an appalling ordeal, and his bravery in choosing to fight Watchtower in court is inspiring. After six years of legal battles, he finally has a settlement that will hopefully go some way to compensate him for the dreadful trauma that has been inflicted on him, and Watchtower’s humiliating climb down is clear vindication; showing that the religion knows it cannot successfully answer his claims in open court.

The JW Survey team wish him the greatest of happiness for the future as he goes on to rebuild his life.

Follow me on twitter @covertfade

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46 Responses to Breaking News: Watchtower Surrenders and Settles in Lopez Lawsuit

  1. nullandvoidboy says:

    Personally, I wanted to see them (WT) fight in court, and lose…..and become ever more exposed…..and lose more cases…..and have ALL the details of every case be out there for all to see….I’m happy for Lopez, in that the dog and pony show is over, but does the settlement come with a gag order? If so, it’s not the greatest victory

  2. Terry says:

    Here here Jose!

    Thank you for your battle against this cult and its crimes against you and humanity.
    May your case assist in bringing this wicked organisation to its knees and beg the worldly courts for MERCY NOT SACRIFICE!

    Lets hope your strength and conviction helps tens of thousands perhaps even hundreds of thousands of victims over the decades to come forward and launch their legal battles.

    Watchtower is finished. It maybe a slow and painful death, but its finished as to what we know and recognise it as 10 years ago.

    Good riddance to this cult!

  3. Deborah Rush says:

    Great Reporting CF…may Jose Lopez feel this victory is as a Huge ‘Double-Win’..He had to persevere against his rapist AND the world WT ‘org.’ that tentacles-as a degrading Octopus(with it’s multiple-inhouse corporations).Anyone who’s reading on here,look,what more ‘proofs’ are needed?Here’s Why(tho-as humans imperfect):Innocent,Moral,Ethical,legal(& Spiritual),sane,healthy,caring,loving People WILL NOT”cover for/over” such monsters as pedophiles.Period.

    • Deborah Rush says:

      Correction,I meant not’legal’people,but Law-abiding people….Hiding criminals,(and for so very long),WT/CCJW/IABS/Org/etc?Look at your fate:Revelation 17:16-18;18:2-8:19:2.

  4. messenger says:

    I see the worst losses for WT coming in the future for the following reasons:

    1. WT disfellowships its members too easily and for too many reasons.
    2. Many young JWs leave because of being dfd and for other reasons.
    3, Some of those leaving were previously sexually molested by congregation members.
    4. WT’s child protection policies have already been proven deficient in USA court cases.
    5. Lawyers like Zalkin know they can win such cases. There is already blood in the water and like sharks they are bound to attack. Big profits are in store for these lawyers. The Zalkin Law Firm has already established an effective outline for successful attacks.

    So, I believe, because of those reasons class action cases against WT will be filed in the future, and that those cases will not settle in amounts less than tens of millions of USA dollars, and possibly might reach as high as the hundreds of millions. Zalkin and other law firms have already received those types of settlements from the Catholic church, more than once.

    If WT still owns those thousands of stocks it’s invested in over the years no doubt it will have to sell those. Sporadic calls for more donations will help WT also. Even if the GB does not have the intelligence to totally change WT child protection policies I see future settlements along with advice from intelligent JWs eventually causing WT to change its policies. Writing is on the wall (Daniel 5:27).

  5. Susan says:

    This is great news for Jose Lopez! Just to be clear though, the database has not been released right? It appears to still be on the table though in the Padron case. Let’s hope much more light is shone on this disgraceful cult to expose what they have been doing in their NON protection of children.

  6. Saffron Hammer says:

    Garret Loesch cleverly says he as an individual does not direct the WTS, which is in itself true; it is as group–the GB that they run the WTS.

  7. I Foster says:

    Why don’t the authorities, with court approval, just walk into Watchtower headquarters and confiscate the secret files?

    • Thoughtful says:

      I thought the same but from listening to audios of Irwin Zalkin and other articles here on jwsurvey, I now understand it’s not that simple. Something around the fact that these are civil rather than criminal cases? Someone who knows please do correct me if I’m wrong.

      • Covert Fade says:

        Thats correct. These are civil cases being tried in a civil court. If they were criminal cases, an FBI team could arrest and prosecute and seize the files with a warrant, as far as I understand.

        • Will says:

          WT needs to be criminally prosecuted. While I think these civil cases are important, a criminal investigation in shielding criminals should be equal to being an accessory to the crime or something. The settlement will keep them from providing the secret database. If WT is prosecuted, then they can seize the files.

          • messenger says:

            Maybe that’s why WT produced the docs in Australia although it was not a criminal prosecution but inquiry.

            The female judge that used to head up Britain’s inquiry into sexual child abuse stated she would throw anybody who failed to comply with her orders to produce records in jail. Since I read that I’m pretty sure WT read it also.

            Because civil cases are usually filed for the purpose of obtaining judgments or injunctions most judicial decisions against defendants, except court sanctions, are ordered to benefit the plaintiff, either monetarily or to move his case along in a fair and timely way.

            I did read, on a USA legal advice site that in some states parties in civil cases can be found in contempt of court and sent to jail for refusing to turn over court ordered discovery docs (as WT has done). If it gets down to jail time in any of these cases then my guess is WT will turn over its docs. WT is taking the position it really has to be up against the wall to comply in some of these cases. Jail time should do it. They’ve tested the San Diego appellate court. I read the last appellate decision there, and that appellate court is disgusted with WT’s behavior. If jail sentences are allowed in California one of those superior courts might order jail time for WT reps if WT continues to hold out on turning over its docs.

    • JWIntellect says:

      My sentiments exactly, but then I remembered that these are being tried as civil cases. It seems as if the court is essentially powerless in this regard. Civil courts should be given the power to issue warrants in cases such as these. Besides that, this case should definitely be tried as a criminal case for the simple fact that, I believe, having knowledge of a person’s past criminal behavior such as child sexual abuse and not taking the proper steps to protect children, leading up to further abuse happening, is criminal in and of itself. Those who effectively fostered an atmosphere for such abuse to take place should be held criminally accountable. I think this will be the only way to force the WT to produce this database.

      Talk about Satan the Devil being the ruler of the world. It looks as if he’s working in their favor.

      • messenger says:

        Some of these cases can be tried as criminal cases, because WT members have broken criminal laws by not reporting in states where mandatory reporting is required. Remember that came out during the Australian Royal Commission inquiry. So, criminal cases can be filed, but it is up to the DA in each province to make those decisions. If tried criminally non-reporters can be sentenced to jail (in some places like CA) and/or fined in some regions.

        In criminal courts DAs would be able to subpoena records also. Blatantly failing to comply with court orders -as WT has done in civil courts- is considered contempt of court, which could also result in jail sentences. All that contributes to the tight spot WT is in.

        From the language the judge at the Royal Commission used in expressing to WT reps that criminal law has been broken by not reporting in some areas (If I remember correctly Victoria was one of those), coupled with the Royal Commission’s statement that it has referred many cases it became aware of to civil authorities, it seems likely criminal prosecutions in Australia are already in the works. Those certainly can be if DAs there chose to prosecute. And why wouldn’t they?

        It seems to me WT for some time has been accumulating a financial war-chest to fight these suits through selling real property, asking for more donations while implying those will be used to further kingdom work, and cutting staff. But already there is a downhill snowball effect to these attacks against WT’s pocket book.

        • messenger says:

          One correction: I don’t know if CA is a mandatory reporting state for clergy like it is for some other professions. But CA criminal law does include fines and/or jail time for those breaking mandated reporting laws.

          Here’s another point to consider: If clergy are subject to mandated reporting laws then those laws deal with reasonable suspicion. If a report has been made to an elder that a molestation has occurred that is reasonable suspicion and therefore requires a report. It demands a report so as not to break the law. The law does not state the report’s accuracy has to or should be verified first, or suggest the reporter should consider the accused person’s history. Civil authorities are the ones to verify the reports accuracy, not the mandated reporters. Mandated reporters report ALL reasonable suspicions.

          So, WT’s rules like the two witness rule which the Australian commission was so concerned about mean nothing if mandated reporting is enacted. That’s probably one reason the GB member Jackson said WT would report if mandated reporting is required. Knowing this we see those governments are just as much to blame as WT where governments do not require mandated reporting for clergy. Why don’t they?

  8. Great news, Covert. So many victories for the abuse survivors lately. So many others speaking out and joining the team.

  9. I Am Awake says:

    This is MONUMENTAL!

  10. Willows says:

    As referred to the report of the public hearing…Friday 10 March,2017. Australian Royal Commission into responses to child sex abuse. Case study 29 … Watchtower Australia produced files relating to 1006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse… Officers at the Royal Commission reviewed these case files… the Royal Commission referred information of 514 alleged perpetrators to police.

    Child abuse is a crime, the Watchtower is not qualified to handle the crime of child abuse. As the scriptures say the Superior Authorities ( the Government of the day ) is placed there by God to handle crime.

    One child abused is one too many.

  11. fallingangel75 says:

    I still wonder about a couple of things… first what do the jw lawyers think? Whatever their background, I think initially upon joining the WT legal team, they must have thought they would be defending free speech and freedom of religion – not child molesters. But when the tide turned they stayed.

    Why? They cannot on any level see this and still believe God is backing the organization. Nowhere to go? Too many friends and family ties? It can’t be for financial gain or prestige like regular lawyers.

    • Fooledmeonce says:

      That’s been my questions too!!!
      These lawyers are on a loosing team, and defending the most sick individuals. The lawyers, no matter how brainwashed, are still educated people who must associate and learn from their legal peers. They have to see what they are doing is filthy and wrong. They have to see the poor people whose lives have been ruined by this cult. They have to see the egotistical idiots running this cult and have revulsion for them!!!

      • I Foster says:

        Judge Rutherford was a lawyer who expanded this insane religion for his own narcissistic gain. Lawyers for WT are of the same ilk. It is a religion of legalities navigated by such lawyers.

        • fallingangel75 says:

          Not questioning your theory, I Foster, but are the perks worth it? Sure they sit above the rank-and-file but also not at the level of prestige and respect (internally) matching the GB.

          I’m not sure what they get but it doesn’t seem like it would be enough even if the currency is praise and adoration and it can’t be money or stock options and real estate – unless we really don’t know what’s going on….

  12. fallingangel75 says:

    And second – this can’t fly under the radar indefinitely. This has to break like the Harvey Weinstein news and the #metoo movement eventually even if not soon.

    What’s the WT response going to be? For decades they’ve been preparing the flock to expect persecution. But being persecuted for being Christian and preaching and even for preaching a singular and unpopular message or refusing to go to war is not the same as covering for child abusers and lying about it.

    Will they just try to ignore it? Will they call ir apostate lies and half truths? I’m very curious.

    • YOU HAVE SAID IT. AND ITS SO POWERFUL….”For decades they’ve been preparing the flock to expect persecution. But being persecuted for being Christian and preaching and even for preaching a singular and unpopular message or refusing to go to war is not the same as covering for child abusers and lying about it.”
      YES. AND VERY TO THE POINT YOU ARE. THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS.

  13. fallingangel75 says:

    And when it does how many people will wake up because of it? I know personally I was able to overlook a lot of things I thought weren’t right, but learning about the money spent/wasted basically obstructing justice when they were so clearly in the wrong – that sealed it for me in an indisputable way – even more than failed prophecy and misinterpreted scripture.

    In my mind those could have been legitimate mistakes they had yet to address and correct. But how they’re handling the child abuse is instantly recognizable as wrong from a human standpoint.

    It should offend anyone’s sense of justice. How they can blatantly and persistently do this all wrong and still claim to be God’s only true representatives is beyond incomprehensible and unforgivable to me!

    • YOU ARE SO RIGHT ON! I COULDNT AGREE MORE. THANK YOU FOR STATING ALL THESE NOTE-WORTHY STATEMENTS THAT ARE PLAIN AND SIMPLE AND TO THE POINT OF NO RETURN. THANX!

    • messenger says:

      The assumed godship of WT was evident to me when Tony Morris stated all male witnesses above 22 or 23 years of age are not proper Christian marriage candidates for JW sisters. Right after that talk Samuel Herd addressed the audiences stating what fine encouragement Tony Morris had just delivered, evidently agreeing with that comment.

      In that same talk brother Morris also stressed that brothers should not wear a current style of tight pants or coats he referred to as the Euro look. He said he was proud of one circuit overseer who claimed he refused to work with a brother in field service because his pants were too tight. And he had more for sisters also. Sisters wearing spanks outside their own home is not Christian behavior he stated. “No! That’s not Christian”.

      Are those mistakes. I don’t think so. Those were statements asserting his assumed
      right to order others to confirm to his opinions. Understanding that you’ll eventually see WT has done that all along. And be damned if you don’t conform to it, the godship of WT.

      2Thessalonians 2:4 “He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” That is a scripture describing the Christian apostasy, the antichrist, the one who has assumed the authority of the Christ, though he is not Christ. Where in scripture did Christ tell his people, the Jews, what to wear, or that men had to be appointed to church positions to be proper marriage candidates? It appears WT believes it has more authority than Christ does over his church. It denies that, but acts it like it does.
      Christ warned us to recognize people for what they do, not what they say. People lie everyday. But their actions cannot lie.

      • messenger says:

        Correction: Morris stated all male Witnesses above 22 or 23 years of age that are not appointed by the WT society to the position of ministerial servant are not proper candidates that JW sisters should consider for marriage mates.

        Sieg Heil brother Morris!!! We await your new orders with keen interest. Your insight into God’s plan is remarkable.

        messenger

        • fallingangel75 says:

          @messenger – those talks were a turning point for me, as were guidelines about sisters not wearing denim skirts or dress slacks to tour Bethel.

          I understand not wanting people to show up looking overly casual or sloppy. I understand asking not to wear New York trends that are outrageous fads, but to ban clothing that is otherwise modest and mainstream in America seemed specific and odd and smacked of the Pharisees.

          Especially when they sent out a letter and photos to be permanently posted on the bulletin board.

          Seemed kinda Crazy Town to me immediately.

      • outandabout says:

        messenger……people lie everyday because it’s necessary. It’s called tact. There’s no such thing as complete honesty. Don’t get hung up on honesty, buddy. Things are not always black and white and the world needs color. But black and white thinking is all part of your religious training, right?

        • messenger says:

          People lie everyday because they think they’ll receive some positive outcome from it, and because they’re stupid, not because they want to be tactful. WT is an example of that. If you personally don’t exercise authority over any people so that they might believe a lie can benefit them, then since there is no expectation that anyone would benefit from lying to you, so why would they? I presently exercise authority over a couple thousand people and see lying 5 days a week. People lie for assumed gain, not to be tactful.

          Example: WT does not tell JWs to obey their governments but then itself refuse to follow court orders because it wants to be tactful. It does so for perceived gain and because it’s stupid.

          Example: If you believed in God would you ever claim to be in the positions of authority the governing body members claim to be in, and in that position demand self imposed regulations on other Christians- unless you were actually contacted by God- to be tactful, or would the reasons more likely be for perceived gain and stupidity? Tact has nothing to do with it.

          The institutions on this whole planet you live on don’t run on tact. They run because of the power those institutions and individuals inside those institutions have to regulate lives. Lies are usually told to circumvent that power.

          • outandabout says:

            sure, messenger, lying can be harmful but can also be beneficial – If a Nazi asks you if you’re hiding a Jew in the attic, do you lie to save a precious life? What we do in that situation is simply follow our conscience. Man decides. You see, Gods rule about never lying simply can’t work because life is never black or white or simply right or wrong.
            And anyway, Jesus lied when he promised to come back before his Apostles died. The atoms of some Palestinian who died two thousand years ago are not going to spontaneously re-assemble themselves into a man who’s going to hold your hand, messenger.
            Knowledge is power and for centuries the churches were the keepers of the knowledge and used it to keep themselves in power. The bishop didn’t sit on the right hand side of the King for nothing. It was a symbiotic relationship that served them both but the knowledge has slipped into the hands of science and reason and the people, and the people are waking up and voting with there feet and the pews in the Western world are emptying. Fundamentalists like yourself will hang on but you’ll only end up looking as ridiculous as the WT did in the 30’s when they printed ‘there’s no such thing as rabies’ and ‘it’s never been proven that germs cause disease’. Always behind. Religion is facing a Galileo moment X10 and they can’t just intimidate, jail or kill the thinkers anymore and the truth is out.
            You have the likes of Ray Comfort who thinks a bibliophile is a bible believing pedophile, Ken Ham who has a dinosaur with a saddle on it and a Texas Governor who name slips me at the moment who, when asked if Spanish should be taught in schools said -‘if English is good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me’. These are the guy’s fighting for your beliefs. If you want to maintain your credibility, messenger, don’t be seen letting them into your home.

        • messenger says:

          [people lie everyday because it’s necessary. It’s called tact] outandabout

          Proof that lying is not necessary is that some people don’t do it. I’m one that doesn’t. So, why is lying necessary for you and other people and yet not necessary for me? Your argument above claims as a reason tact. To me that implies stupidity in that it claims you cannot be tactful without lying, and also that you believe keeping a smile on the face of others is more important than honesty. To me that’s stupidity, for dishonesty causes more harm than temporary frowns on faces.

          • outandabout says:

            messenger…..you don’t tell me my new shirt is ghastly because you can see I’m very pleased with it. White lies are harmless and necessary and more preferable than brutal honesty no matter the cost. It’s not a black and white world and nothing has been and ever will be perfect. Not even your God is perfect because he exhibits human characteristics which is to be expected because he’s man-made. Your belief system is lying to you and stealing your contentment in this life and has you constantly looking for signs to uphold your belief that this life is a temporary phase. You’re unwittingly promoting the biggest lie ever and trained to do so. That doesn’t mean you’re a bad guy. You’re a fine person and a decent citizen. You’re 1950’s America. You’re the Andy Griffiths Show.

    • outandabout says:

      nice one, fallingangel. You’re all over it.

  14. Honest Counselor says:

    They have very little choice right now as they are fighting a losing battle…they always were!: http://www.watchtowercriminals.blogspot.com

  15. Doc Obvious says:

    We need to expect more from Christendom. Since religion is exempt from taxes, there should be more regulations on religions. Not less.

  16. James Broughton says:

    This is encouraging news. Whenever JWs talk about abuse in the mainstream Church it is always useful to point out the problems on their own backdoor.

  17. messenger says:

    If I said I was a crocodile from outer space does it make me one? Does WT claiming to teach a strict interpretation of scripture make that true? Let’s move historically forward from when WT taught what I know as the goofiest and the most pretentious (so called) Christian doctrine, which was the WT Giza pyramid theology which it taught until 1928.

    Here’s another gem from WT theology. Until the 1950s WT taught followers to worship Christ. Since the 1950s WT has taught that is an apostate belief originating in what it claims was and still is apostate Christianity. Yes since the 1950s WT reinterpreted the word it previously translated as worship to ‘did obeisance to’ only when WT applies it to Christ. The same original language word when WT applies it to Jehovah and even to Satan is translated as worship. WT used to translate it as worship when applying it to Christ.

    But here’s the point. Shouldn’t it be a major Christian doctrine whether or not the Bible teaches Christ should be worshipped? My guess is, if a JW publisher continued to make it publically known that he/she worship Christ they could be disfellowshipped. Just my guess. But I know for sure that if a brother was assigned to give a prayer at the Kingdom Hall and he included into that prayer ‘we worship you Jesus,’ then he would be counseled and instructed not to do so again. And if he kept doing it you wouldn’t see him up there any more.

    After saying all that let me get down to the exact point. Can WT factually be teaching a strict interpretation of the Bible when for half its existence it did worship Christ and taught others to worship Christ in its publications, and then for the latter half its existence it didn’t worship Christ and taught others not to worship Christ?

    If both those interpretations are a strict interpretation of scripture, then might I be that crocodile and yet also human?

    • Deborah Rush says:

      Messenger..(lol..thank YHWH,we are not crocodiles!)All your comments are complete-compliments/agree with the Bible scholars and thorough-researching commentators,on that “Beroean Pickets”Site.They are Spiritually mature and awake,you’d find good fellowship there also.(That Site has been to me a Godsend).They too,as on this excellent JWSurvey site,discuss/reveal these anti-Christian doctrines,abuses,coverups.More and more ARE awakening..because,as FA perfectly-stated above,basic human decency screams”wrong,Wrong;WRONG!”on so many points ‘the Org.’positions itself in.

      • messenger says:

        Deborah, when Christ the man accepted people it wasn’t because of their theology. If that were the case he would have taught them a specific theology before accepting them, because most of those he accepted certainly did not know his. But he didn’t do that. To the sinner next to him he said, “Today you will be with me in paradise,” without teaching that man anything.

        The belief Christ’s teachings did stress that was necessary for them was to have faith in him, it was not directing people to have a precise theology about the things today’s churches argue over. My belief is that the arguments about Christian theology from every side are man made originating from demonic spirits, those spirits WT and the Bible names the spirit of the world. It is divisive. The only thing demons concern themselves with respect to humanity is separating people from God, since they are separated. People and institutions (like WT) moved by that spirit are moved to accomplish that purpose also, whether they are aware of it or not.

        Because of that I’m not overly concerned with a Christian church’s theology as long it does not work against Christ’s purpose to gain followers for himself . My belief is that the “narrow road” Christ spoke of is narrow because it is only traveled in one way, that is by following Christ. If Christ meant narrow by following a very strict theology that idea would have been apparent by the way he related to people while he was on Earth. But even when he healed people the statement to them that was most often recorded after those healings was stop sinning and go your way and tell no one who healed you. It was not you must believe A thru Z about theology to be saved. His teaching and plead with those people was that they must believe in him to be saved. But thanks for your recommendation in which you directed me to the Beroean Pickets site.

        As Christ said in a parable his church would become a gigantic tree. It is far larger than any one Christian denomination as WT claims. Therefore I don’t wish to get hung up in arguing any specific Christian belief unless I perceive it harms others. I speak against WT because of a perceived harm that reaches far beyond sexual child abuse.

        • Deborah Rush says:

          Messenger,Thank You.What you articulated is nearly- exactly,Yes,the same as mine…I am very glad to hear this from you.BE-ing a Christian yes is a reality-separate,in a large way;in a spirit-unknown,from most manmade format.True faith vs.a belief-system.This is being discovered/revealed to more people it seems,as in that person’s core…as they wake up to it.I am for that Unseen,that reflects & shows in how and what a person says;does….for the Highest Ethics,highest Morality..Love.Ultimately, Christ-like. Reflection:our incredible,unique,ever-fascinating earth is staggering;dying under the weight of evil forces,and a majority of mankind who”do not know what they do”…along with those who DO know what they do,harming others(and our earth)beyond forgiveness. My goal is helping-assist others(who are ready for it),on that sacred high but narrow road,without man’s borders/man’s dogma,or any ego.And to likewise take a stand,alert;warn.When I become angry over these child abuses;other abuses worldwide–the ongoing tortures,trafficking/slavery, degradations of our fellow human beings,it is also in awareness of the eternal Divine.This is not a dilemma for me.Because there is evil (for a quite short time of Homo Sapiens)we on earth can choose..to also grow,in this period..as each individual can.In that growth there naturally comes the outflow of a Protection wish for others..Christlike.Even badly damaged,traumatized individuals achieve this…Can and have.But when we across the globe collectively turn our Intent towards revealing these abuses,it is our Protective aspect,with a power I believe from the Divine..with results:the revealing of abuses are unfolding now– before our eyes. To all,in your efforts..keep up the momentum!

    • John freeman says:

      Since i started to fade 3 years ago whenever i take my jw wife on f service route calls.when i am asked to do the prayer i have been emphasising jesus and his kingdom and closing ” in the name of our king and mediator jesus christ.” Guess what i dont get asked to do the prayer any more..which actualy suites me..

  18. Gameisover says:

    I haven’t laugh in a long time but your last comment made me laugh.
    If we keep believing all the “spirit guided” changes the Witchtower keeps dishing out, then we might all really be crocodiles from outer space!

  19. Ricardo says:

    Would it be possible to produce a list of cases involving child abuse that Watchtower has either lost or settled out of court? It would be convenient so we could include such a list in our correspondence with other witnesses and with family members.

  20. John Butler says:

    A lot of off topic burbling here I see, which does no good to the original point. Child abuse / pedophilia within the JW / Watchtower org/soc’ is the topic. So a question, Will the documents get handed over to the court or not ? These fancy lawyers and big pay outs do no good on their own. It depends what you think of the JW org of course, but in my opinion the present Governing Body needs removing…. They call themselves the ‘faithful and discreet slave class’. But they act more like the ‘wicked slave class’…. We have to remember that the ‘Nation of Israel’ / Jews, were God’s chosen people once. However the religious leaders of the Jews were horrible people that did not serve God properly… Those religious leaders were the ones that demanded Jesus be put to death. Because of the wickedness of the Nation of Israel’, God allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem in 70 C. E…. However God was and is still God.,which means that God will still have a chosen way in which He wants to be worshipped…. The Jehovah’s Witnesses religion still has many good points. Jesus said he was no part of the world, and Jesus said his followers would be no part of the world. Hence JW’s do not vote for human governments. JW’s also do not go to war or get involved in making weapons of war, now surely that has to be good. Surely it makes sense for people of one religion not to kill their own ‘brothers’ in another country… So, let’s stick to the one point here, child abuse and why have the GB kept it secret and deliberately hidden pedophiles within the organisation ? Unfortunately my opinion has to be that the Gov Body have things to hide about themselves and about other people high up in the organisation. I think some official body need to make an earthwide report, bringing all the information and evidence together. Then maybe all the documents from all the HQ’s of JW org earthwide could be made public.. I left the JW org very recently after doing three months of research into the alegations of child abuse. Most Jw’s will not do any research because they are told that it is all lies or apostates. So it needs to be brought out publicly in mainstream media, with proof, then maybe more people will leave the Org. Then the donations would stop going into the ‘pot’. The Org would be losing money and maybe things would take a drastic change. But at the moment it’s too ‘bitty’, it’s not mainstream enough and not enough Witnesses are finding out the truth of the wickedness within the Org. Bickering and just slagging off the JW Org does no good for the real cause. It needs to be an earthwide organised effort to show the whole world what is going on within the JW Org.

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