BBC radio program highlights Watchtower child abuse failings

On April 26 of 2017, Investigative Journalist Trey Bundy and Reveal media, in partnership with the law firm UK law firm Bolt Burdon Kemp, organised a landmark conference in London entitled: Bringing Abuse to Light: A convening to address the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ child safety crisis. 

Bundy and Reveal had long been investigating the worldwide scandal surrounding the Watchtower organisation’s handling of child abuse, with multiple articles and podcasts devoted to the subject. However, they felt the issue was so severe, and Watchtower’s apparent intransigence to change was so troubling, that things needed to step up a gear.

Thus, the Reveal conference was organised.

The goal was to gather relevant experts, activists and abuse survivors, as well as members of the media, all together in one place so that information could be shared and strategies formulated as to how best to progress this issue, and also to alert other news organisations as to the depth and scale of the problem. JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans was one of those who attended, and he recounted his experiences in a recent JW Survey article which you can read here. 

This bold strategy pursued by Bundy and Reveal has paid off in a number of ways. From lots of networking and useful behind the scenes collaboration, to increased public exposure. Indeed Watchtower’s ongoing worldwide child abuse scandal has once again featured in the media, and one of the Reveal conferences attendees is helming the show;

David Cook, an investigative reporter for the BBC.

Cook has brought the issue to BBC Worldwide’s radio series Heart and Soul, in an episode entitled “Witness Protection.” The episode not only focuses on the specific issue of child abuse, but also reaches further into other troubling aspects of Watchtower’s doctrine and the culture of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Shunning, the insular nature of the religion, and the efforts being made to create support groups for those leaving the faith are all discussed in this excellent program.

You can listen to the program here.

It’s clear to see that Cook has clearly done his research. For example, he notes that the Governing Body describe themselves as “Guardians of Doctrine.” That phrase, to my knowledge, appears in no Watchtower literature and was used only once by Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson during his appearance before the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual abuse. Thus, it’s clear that Cook has a good familiarity with what happened at the ARC, as well as in the many other investigations into the religion.

You will also see that many of the experts and abuse survivors interviewed for Cook’s report were also attendees at the Reveal conference. Legal experts like Kathleen Hallisey and Irwin Zalkin, and abuse survivors like Nick French, Candice Conti and Karen Morgan are all featured in the program.

I’d highly recommend listening to the program, and it’s heartening to see that good investigative journalism is still alive and well, with the likes of Trey Bundy and David Cook fighting to bring public attention to Watchtower’s ongoing disgraceful handling of child abuse.

 

 

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255 Responses to BBC radio program highlights Watchtower child abuse failings

  1. dee2 says:

    Kudos to those who are being like Jesus and being the best Christian instead of being a JW, and encouraging the people they meet when they go preaching to do likewise.

    I do not envy you. Jesus has set the bar real high – it seems the true followers of Jesus are monks, nuns & the Shakers.

    The ones who truly follow Jesus’ teachings:

    * Have no money. They are sworn to poverty. They do not pursue fulfilling careers or make a good living or work for a just society for the long haul:
    – Give up everything in this world, their entire life, sacrifice all for the coming Kingdom (Matthew 7:21, 13:44-46, 19:27-30; Mark 8:36-37, 10:28; Luke 6:46, 9:24, 14:33, 18:28).
    – Sell everything they have and give to the poor (Mark 10:17-21)
    – Give completely of what they have to others (Luke 12:22-34; Matthew 6:19-21, 25-34)
    – Drop everything and follow Jesus (Luke 9:59 – 62)
    – Save no money for tomorrow (Matthew 6:19-20)
    – Don’t become wealthy (Mark 10:21-25)
    – Become like little children who own nothing and can lay claim to nothing (Mark 10:13-16)

    * Become anti-family. Strong family ties, family values do not matter:
    – Jesus will give a big reward to those who forsake their family, abandon their home, leave their family behind for him. Parents, siblings, spouses and children are of no importance in comparison with the coming Kingdom (Luke 5:11, 9:59-62, 14:26, 33; 18:28-30; Matthew 10:37, 19:27-30; Mark 10:28-31)
    – Disrespect your close family relationships. Insult and spurn your family publicly for rejecting Jesus’ message (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-34; Luke 8:20-21, 11:27-28)
    – Familial rifts will be created. Jesus said he came to destroy families by making family members hate each other (Luke 12:51-53; Matthew 10:34-46)
    – Family tensions will be heightened, families and friendships will be torn apart because of Jesus (Matthew 10:21; Mark 13:12; Luke 12:52-53; 21:16)
    – A person must hate his or her family and themselves in order to be Jesus’ disciple (Matthew 10:37; Luke 14:26)
    – Disrespect your parents, do not ask for their permission (Luke 2:43-49).

    * Don’t make any plans for the future, God will take care of them (Matthew 6:33-34; Luke 12:31)

  2. dee2 says:

    ….Cont’d

    The ones who truly follow Jesus’ teachings:

    * Would disappear because they have no off-spring. They would not have married. (Matthew 19: 10-12; 1Corunthians 7:7-9, 27).

    After Jesus denounces divorce, his disciples say that if divorce isn’t allowed, then “it is not good to marry.” Jesus agrees by saying that it is better to make yourself a eunuch “for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” (Matthew 19:10-12)

    * Are willing to pluck out their eye or cut off their hand or foot if the think owning them will deny them entrance to the Kingdom (Matthew 5:28-30; Luke 9:46-48)

    * Become slaves who do the bidding of others (Mark 10:42-44; cf. John 13:12-17).

    * If someone steals from them they don’t try to get it back (Luke 6:30)

    * If someone hits them, they do not resist, they invite the person to do it again (Matthew 5:39)

    * If they lose a lawsuit, they give more than the judgment (Matthew 5:40)

    * If someone forces them to walk a mile, they walk two miles (Matthew 5:41)

    * If anyone asks them for anything, they give it to them without question (Matthew 5:42)

    * They wouldn’t marry a divorced woman since that would be committing adultery. (Matthew 5:32)

    * Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? (Matthew 15:4-7; Mark 7:9-10)

    So kudos to those who are being like Jesus and being the best Christian instead of being a JW and encouraging the people they meet when they go preaching to do likewise.

  3. dee2 says:

    My above comment has 2 parts.
    The first part has been flagged by the moderation filter.

    I will summarize the first part, hopefully it will eventually be posted:

    Kudos to those who are being like Jesus and being the best Christian instead of being a JW and encouraging the people they meet when they go preaching to do likewise.

    I do not envy you. Jesus has set the bar real high – it seems the true followers of Jesus are monks, nuns & the Shakers.

    The ones who truly follow Jesus’ teachings:

    *Have no money. They are sworn to poverty. They do not pursue fulfilling careers or make a good living or work for a just society for the long haul.

    *Become anti-family. Strong family ties, family values do not matter.

    *Don’t make any plans for the future, God will take care of them.

  4. Ted says:

    Thanks for the stats Messenger, just extrapolations
    we know, but even if overestimated by 50% it still
    leaves a huge titanic iceberg lurking in the waters.
    Despite all the confident noises, this ship is looking
    very sinkable.

  5. Stuart (XJDUB) Lefebvre says:

    You see what happens when a person takes the Bible way too seriously?

  6. Art Fern says:

    Here are a few newer articles published from many different sources and publications. Quoting the WT’s own words there are some real teeth in the pieces. If you are connecting with a fader or an active member of the congregation who is opening up slowly the articles might be enlightening. I have an e-mail forum with ex members, faders and some apologists 12-14 all together. I copied the body of the articles and inserted them one at a time into our thread. Only one member pulled the “satanic conspiracy against Jehovah’s organization” defense, but even he read them.
    JW Child Abuse in the News
    -http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/18/jehovahs-witness-child-sex-abuse_n_6705852.html
    -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses%27_handling_of_child_sex_abuse
    -http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2778321/Bombshell-lawsuits-allege-insidious-child-sex-abuse-epidemic-decades-whitewashing-inside-secretive-confines-Jehovah-s-Witness-church.html
    -https://www.revealnews.org/article/how-jehovahs-witnesses-leaders-hide-child-abuse-secrets-at-all-costs/
    -http://jezebel.com/jehovahs-witness-leaders-accused-of-covering-up-child-s-1686366281
    -http://sexualabusefirm.com/jehovahs-witness-sexual-abuse-lawsuits-rise/#top
    -https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2016/apr/24/ticker-tough-build-jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-case/#
    -https://www.postguam.com/how-jehovah-s-witnesses-leaders-hide-child-abuse-secrets-at/article_9afefd94-c2c4-11e6-a078-3fcae784af9f.html

    Let me know what you think,
    Art Fern

    • Sharon Christensen says:

      Thanx for this info Art!

    • Ricardo says:

      @Art,
      This is gold. Fantastic. I have made photocopies of some of the articles to distribute to my witness friends and family. I love how they are newspaper articles so I can get away with it.

      Irwin Zalkin says he has 18 lawsuits pending against Watchtower. This is going to be fun to watch.

      • Art Fern says:

        I appreciate your response, Thanks so much for taking to time to let me know that the articles were helpful.

    • Imgonaburn says:

      Here’s another example of jw thinking they don’t have to hand over incriminating evidence.
      Family of man killed in Venus Williams crash have bid to obtain her phone records BLOCKED by her – The Sun
      https://apple.news/AQ5kRyuTxSmy91RLzbGKjKg
      It’s from a tabloid newspaper but I wouldn’t put it past her to try the old GB tactic of refusing to co-operate with authority if there’s a chance you might be exposed as less than perfect! Smh.

  7. outandabout says:

    Hi, messenger, thanks for doing those figures. What I was really after though was a confirmation of my calculations – based on those Australian figures I quoted, the WT is 60 times worse than the Anglicans on the issue of child abuse and the Catholics are somewhere in the region of 18 times worse, without getting to picky with the figures. That seems incredible and I’m just not trusting my brain on this so what is your estimation, please.

    • outandabout says:

      Sorry, messenger, rushed that a bit, should read – the WT is 18 times worse than the Catholics.

    • messenger says:

      @outandabout

      Outandabout I imagine you calculated based upon this following quote of yours directed at Markie.

      [Watchtower – 1000 abuse cases and 60,000 JW’s in Aust.

      Catholics – 4400 abuse cases and 5.4 million Catholics in Aust.

      Anglicans – 1000 abuse cases and 3.6 million Anglicans in Aust.]

      Those are all labeled by you as abuse cases, so you rightly could compare those on that basis alone. However, other characteristics about those cases may not be similar. For instance, did the abusers the Catholics and Anglicans count include those churches’ general populations like WT’s reports did, or did their reports of abusers only include their Clergy members? Also, the cases reported to WT covered a specific span of years, it’s not likely those other two organizations’ cases covered the exact same time span. Nevertheless here are the comparable ratios:

      WT- 1000/60,000= 1/60=.01666 or 1.666 percent

      Catholics- 4400/5,400,000=11/13,500=.00081 or .081 percent

      Anglicans-1000/3,600,000=1/3,600=.00027 or .027 percent

      Here are you answers:

      WT to Catholic numbers- 1.666/.081=20.6(rounded)=WT had 20.6 times more reports when comparing the ratios of the information you provided than Catholics.

      WT to Anglican numbers-1.666/.027=61.7= WT had 61.7 times more reports when comparing the ratios of the information you provided than Anglicans.

      • messenger says:

        At the end of my comment it should read here are your answers, not you answers.
        Directed to outandabout.

      • messenger says:

        outandabout

        Also, I can’t remember if the ARC claimed there were only 1000 abuse cases from WT. I do remember the ARC claimed there were a little over a 1000 individual abusers. The ARC claimed Australia WT had over 5000 files or reports on child abuse in its computer. I don’t know if that included single abusers who were repeat offenders, but it’s likely some of those files include repeat offenders which, if true, means WT had more that 1000 abuse cases in its computer, possibly a lot more.

        Anyway you look at it the WT figures show there was on the average at least one child molester in each Australian congregation over that period the WT branch received those reports.

        • outandabout says:

          Ok, thanks, messenger, it’s pretty much as I thought but just couldn’t believe it and as Ted say’s, even if the calculations are 50% too high, this must surely be the biggest child abuse scandal the world hasn’t seen yet. This needs to change and when the figures are expressed in this manner it brings into focus, and in a shocking way, just how bad the problem is in God’s Truth. The truth about the truth.

          And as Stuart above observes and I’ve always thought – it doesn’t pay to follow the bible too closely and the WT have done the world a favor by conducting that experiment. The results are out.

          Cheers.

          • Art Fern says:

            It irks me that the WT pulls any scripture out of its chapter and context, takes the position that those words were meant for them, today. By doing so they pay no attention to Why the admonition/direct commandment/casual comment was given. They seem drawn to the epistles which were written for the purpose of correcting certain congregations for drifting away from what they had been taught. But some chapters are different, 1Corr 7, is simply Paul’s opinion on marriage which was at odds with the rest of the New Testament. We know Paul was merely passing along his opinion, nothing else.
            “It’s better to marry than to burn” but it would be better if you just kept your hormones at bay, but if you’re not strong enough, marry before you become intimate.
            It’s interesting that the most important chapter,
            1 Corr 13, is completely ignored by JW teachings,
            It also cranks me up knowing that John and Mary who are engaged would be ostracized if they had adult consensual sex before the wedding, BUT an adult who rapes a child is given much more slack, down to there needing witnesses or it just didn’t happen. A homosexual who comes out of the closet, but who has never acted on his feelings, is going to be tossed out for being a deviate, but again a 50 year old guy can grope a child on a number of occasions, and remain uneffected if there are no witnesses. If he admits the assault expressing remorse he may just lose his privledges for 6 months. In either case no one is likely to know what he did and no parents are going to be told to keep their eyes on their kids if a certain man is close by.
            Yet, Tony Morris III and Bouncing Brows, Rubber-faced Stephen Lett let it be known that nobody does more to protect kids than the JWs do. The bottom line, when people call the group Paradise for Pedophiles, it’s true, a terrible act that no one inside the Watchtower takes seriously.

          • outandabout says:

            All the religions apply scripture to themselves, Art. They’re all ‘the one true religion’, etc etc etc, and quote appropriate scripture to prove it and then all the followers then agree and all feel warm and fuzzy and totally righteous.
            Nobody stands in their church, looks around and say’s to themselves -“yeah, I know the Jehovah’s Witnesses are the one true religion, but, y’know, I really like it here and those stained glass windows are just awesome, so, I’ll stay here and die at Armageddon”.
            The only way to possibly reach a JW is by shocking them, and that’s exactly what I did at the door recently. I told them about the ARC and the statistics and then said ” any group of people who believe that the tearing of young girls vagina’s while under the watch of their loving god is all part of a plan for a greater good are out of their skulls with delusion and their morality is a fake one”. The guy didn’t show any reaction and the woman kept her expression but her head lurched back in shock. I apologized to her and said “but that’s the truth of it” Try it.

          • messenger says:

            You’re welcome outandabout.

            Take care.

          • messenger says:

            outandabout

            My claim still is that WT does not follow the Bible closely as you suggest. I believe WT follows it less than most other Christian denominations, not just by teaching false doctrine, but more importantly by making up unbiblical rules that it forces JWs to follow and by claiming to be God’s sole spokesman. Those things along with claiming all other denominations to be Satanic gives all Witnesses a false sense of self-righteousness.

            That self righteousness is a major factor contributing to these cover ups. Because when the cover ups or the molestations go public they are scandalous. If we are, and because we are, more righteous than ALL others we cannot let them see we are really dirty.

            The advice not to bring reproach on Jehovah’s name merely means don’t bring reproach on WT. One reason most JWs go along with this, in addition to the threat of sanctions against them if they refuse to, is that common sense tells them that scandals might impede successful results from the preaching work. And they believe only WT’s(JWs) preaching and no other preaching leads to salvation.

            So, the point you made about WT sticking closely to the Bible I think is erroneous. WT claims that but it can easily be proven untrue, The other Christian denominations who don’t claim to be the sole revealers of Biblical truth will not produce this effect in their rank and file or their leadership as much, because of the reasons which contribute to it that I outlined above. I’m not saying they don’t have the same type of problems including cover ups. I’m claiming their problems like that are just not as pronounced. Yes WT is worse because it’s the MOST self righteous. Luke 18:10-14

          • outandabout says:

            I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about the WT, messenger, but when you have a religious fundamentalist holding up a placard reading ‘Fag’s Die God Laugh’s’……there has to be something wrong with the teachings to bring out such hate and to think such behavior puts them in favor with god. These haters are part of the problem they wish to remedy and their teachings have disconnected them from rationality – a sign of a cult. They could very well be intelligent people, but they are among the most uneducated and hold religion in a bad light. Or, are they an accurate reflection of fundamentalism – if they don’t hold these views, they are not true believers. Not a good look. Back the bus up…..if Jesus wouldn’t approve, it’s not right.

        • Art Fern says:

          It was 1005 Abusers, we have no idea how many children were affected or how many incidences of sexual assault have took place per victim. One figure that was published in a Catholic news site said the Vatican stated that 4% of the total number of Priests had committed child sexual abuse on at least one child. One of the newspapers “The Age” in Melbourne, the second most read newspaper in Australia after the Sydney Morning Herald had a figure of 8% of the total number of priests in the entire church had abused a child. The reason there were so many cases per priest was that the policy was to send a pedophile priest to a a Parrish in another part of the Diocese. The moves did nothing but give the Priest another “field to harvest” that action was the reason Bishops were removed under pressure and lawsuits were so successful. Knowing you had a Pedophile priest who let’s say had been working in a San Fransico Parrish and must be removed, a Bishop or Cardinal would send him off to a Parrish in Napa, or to Stockton. If he got in trouble again and parents were flooding into the Bishops offices, problem priest might them be moved to Santa Rosa. At each stop the same results.

      • Markie says:

        What you are saying in your post actually shows how wrong it is to compare the statistics.

  8. The Atheist. says:

    I wonder how big is the extent of minor abuse in lower education countries, more specifically, Brazil. They are the second biggest JW crowd, they are already highly religious, they have registered around 3000 religious sects, most are bible based, they are also known to have very hot and sexual hungry females, from 10 to 15 years old. I just wonder… if someone cares to dig those grounds, what can be found.. I believe it would make the Australian case.. just the small tip of the iceberg.

    • Art Fern says:

      Child prostitution is wide spread in Brazil, with little if any interest by the police. As a result, I’d say that child abuse would need be an outrageous example or case, for the police to take any action.
      https://youtu.be/9znhv1BQNoQ
      https://youtu.be/5uunl6tLkF4
      https://youtu.be/pMLjVaJRUC8

      I don’t Trash the Catholic Church or use them as scapegoats, however child prostitution is strongly connected to their prohibition on the use of birth control. I can’t think of a Roman Catholic dominate country that does not deal with extreme poverty, starvation, crowding and over population, High levels of pollution of the water and sky, as well as child prostitution.
      Mexico and well as Central America, Columbia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil, Paraguay etc
      are at least 80% Catholic, most are in the 90-95% range, and they all deal with the just mentioned conditions.

  9. Doc Obvious says:

    The Emoji Movie is coming out in a couple of weeks. JW children seek cover. The Emoji Movie looks incredibly awesome. However, Watchtower does not like emoji’s. Remember the JW.org worksheet on emoji’s. The horror!

  10. Doc Obvious says:

    Another item. Anthony Morris III, please take a look at what your servant, Serena Williams did on the cover of Vanity Fair.

    Do you approve of this picture? Does this infringe on any of your tight pants, spanx regulations?

    • Sharon Christensen says:

      Unfortunately…I attempted to chk Van fair to see pic, but my comp went zup…so I am taking a wild guess…Serena was showin off her…window washing muscles…? Wish I had a set like hers! Time and unforseen occurence befell mine! ;-))). Tight pants are best when up the ladder, for many reasons…esp. safety concerns…:). Toni and Morris should give them a go…Oh forgot..They do not do windows…not in job description. Hmm…word has it Serena got her set from lifting her cart in and out…up and down…loaded! So far, has not worked for me, but I keep hopin. Money talks and B #*#% walks? Shrugs.

    • Bad Penny says:

      Dear Serena has also had premarital sex with an unbeliever and is an ambassador for UNICEF. Think she will be disfellowshipped???

  11. Doc Obvious says:

    Fake news from the Watchtower magazine published by Watchtower Babble and Tract Society.

  12. Art Fern says:

    Off Topic–
    I was saddened to hear that Willard had gone back to the fold. I exchanged many comments with him when I used to spend time here. He could express himself very well and his observations on the WT were spit on. To know as much as he did, yet he returns is very tough news. Obviously dangling your wife and kids on front of you knowing you will be shunned and Hated are strong motivators, I do understand. There was a Caroline who also had some insightful comments, is she still around?

    • Caroline says:

      Hi Art. I am still around but not at home so I mostly just see other people’s comments but thank you so much for saying that some of my comments are insightful!

  13. Whip It says:

    Test, my last few posts didnt work

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It, during the meeting tonight I went to the library and borrowed the 1930-1985 Index and found the Watchtower I was looking for about the anointed.

      It’s w72 415-16. The answer explains that there can’t have been many faithful Christians in the first few centuries because the number of 144,000 had not been filled by them. If you take the number of witnesses who have claimed to be anointed over the years, then there must have been very few faithful Christians in the first few centuries.

      If you have the chance, look it up.

      • Caroline says:

        I am not at home with my Watchtower library but it seems to me that within the last 10 years or so the Society said there weren’t any annointed by Jehovah during the last 2,000 years until Watchtower came along. Does anybody else remember that? It was a big deal as I used to comment from old understanding as the 72 Watchtower said in Ricardo’s comment but then it was changed. I remember the topic coming up in service and talking about it before the new understanding.

        • messenger says:

          I never heard that. If it was written it would be a bold face lie which is too easily proven false by scriptures. I don’t believe WT is so scripturally ignorant to make that statement. Many of their points are deceptive because WT adds to scriptures. That claim you suggest would be taking away thoughts from scriptures. It’s easier to prove someone wrong when they take away a thought from a document, because interpretation cannot be suggested as a reason to accept the meaning as easily. Especially if you’re WT because WT have developed the expectation in its followers that it can add ideas onto scripture with God’s approval and backing.

          Christ said, “Ill build my church on this rock, and even the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” Matt 16:18 (Paraphrasing mine).

          Remember the church according to Christ is the Christian Congregation. Therefore scripturally it cannot be overthrown. To say it could be overthrown is to deny Christ’s teaching.

          Christ also said, and WT has always agreed, that Christians both wheat and weeds would exist inside the Christian congregation. The wheat are the sons of the kingdom, those who WT labels anointed. WT has always taught these ones existed since the inception of Christianity. Again if WT denies that it takes away from Christian thoughts expressed clearly in scripture.

          • messenger says:

            Again, Matt 28:20 reads, “I am with you ALWAYS, even unto the end of the world.” Christ.

            If WT made the claim you thought you read it would have to deny too many of Christ’s clear statements.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, jwfacts has 2 excellent articles that answer those questions. One is “Has there always been Jehovah’s Witnesses?” and the other one is who is the faithful and discreet slave?”

        • Ricardo says:

          @Caroline, I think there is a misunderstanding. I have not heard of that idea that noone was anointed for 2,000 years. The GB has always taught that there were wheat growing amongst the weeds all this time, and the wheat were anointed ones. There may not have been many of them, but they were there.

      • messenger says:

        What if anything does WT really know about those they call anointed? I’ve been around WT’s writings over 40 years as an adult, and never once have I seen even the attempt in any WT publication to describe an anointing experience that any JW has ever had. Although many of those experiences are described in detail in scripture WT’s game is to vaguely suggest what happens to a person’s beliefs and desires without once ever mentioning their experience.

        No wonder many JWs now are claiming to be anointed. They can always rationalize those writing WT cannot pinpoint what that experience is like, therefore they must fit the shoe of an anointed one as snugly as the next anointed Witness. After all, no contact by God is necessary for the process to occur according to WT. All that has to happen is for one to know they are heaven bound, and that to be told without being told. If God’s spirit directs most of them as it directs WT then historical facts prove many of them must be wrong. For WT is usually wrong by its own admissions and later proofs.

        In my older age one thing I find very disgusting is lying. And the longer I live the more I realize it surrounds me like an evil tent.

        • outandabout says:

          This lying you’re surrounded by, messenger…I’m curious, is this lying everywhere or only in your religious circle?

          • messenger says:

            In very many places. I’ll say everywhere. It has nothing to do with religion. People are dishonest. My grown children have never lied to me. My first wife neither. But all of them are exceptional people in that way.I’ve found most people will.

          • outandabout says:

            That’s interesting, messenger. Could you have been very hurt by a liar and are now very sensitive to it, causing you to see lying everywhere? Similar to being on the constant lookout for signs of Armageddon and all one see’s is bad? Are you actually upset with yourself for having been duped by WT for 40yrs? Who are you more angry with – WT or yourself? Are you wondering that if a confident, intelligent man like yourself could be deceived for 40yrs, just how deep the deception actually goes and have you actually bottomed out on that yet? Is there more to come?
            Just a couple of quick thoughts, messenger, no judgments.
            This leads me to another thought – these people going door to door believing the world to be almost too dangerous to live in……if the world is so bad, what are they doing ambling along the street looking all relaxed and not a care in the world. If only they would join the dots.

          • messenger says:

            outandabour

            No to your psychological analysis for the reason for my comment outandabout, My comment is factually based from my current and past observations of others in various scenarios. I have dealt with and currently do deal with a lot of people. The only psychological aspect of my observation has nothing to do with me as an observer but does have to do with the reasons for those liars’ thinking. Here are some of their reasons:

            1. Because they THINK they will get in some trouble if they don’t lie but tell the truth.
            2. Because they want to take advantage of someone else for their own benefit. And their con to do that includes lying.
            3. Because they are short term thinkers attempting to deal with what’s immediately in front of them in a way they think benefits them most at that immediate short- term time. They reason lying is that way.

            Those are just some of the psychological reasons the liars lie. Knowing how common this practice is has to do with a person’s experience (for instance in what situations did they deal with populations of people and how many people did they observe in those situations), and also whether one accepts these lies as acceptable behavior. For those that accept them as acceptable and/or also do it themselves they might not notice anything wrong, because to them it’s an acceptable way of life. It’s not acceptable to me.

            These reasons for lying and other reasons apply to the elders lying, and WT doing it. But the problem saturates our society. It’s not isolated to WT.

            If people are not afraid they could potentially get in trouble or there is nothing big they can possibly manipulate from you then of course no one has a reason to lie to you. But then your perception is merely shaped due to the lack of your own experience. It doesn’t mean people don’t do what I claim.

            If you haven’t seen it personally you might get an idea if you watch a TV station like CNN which constantly claims others are outright lying or at least constantly implies others are lying. Either the people CNN fingers are lying or CNN is with its claim others are. That’s just one example. My observations are based on thousands of personal experiences though, not from watching news reports.

          • outandabout says:

            Ok, messenger, I hear you. I think we can all assume that the likes of CNN need to concoct or exaggerate stories purely because we are saturated with news to the extent that there is no news. I’m over it. But if you feel you are surrounded by liars in your everyday life…..well, I don’t know what to say because I don’t see that in mine and I can only guess what sort of world you live in.

          • messenger says:

            Like I said outandabout it depends on your life experience. Hardly anybody is going to lie to you without thinking they have something of considerable value to gain out of it. However, if considerable gain or the possibility of considerable trouble faces people a great percentage of them do lie. That’s life, and that’s human nature in a great many of us, myself not included. It’s not that you are not around those folks, it’s more likely there were no reasons for them to lie or you. Because when you walk out your door you’re around them.

            What Ricardo complains about demonstrates my claim. Similar to Ricardo’s experience no elders that I’ve ever confronted with their hands in the cookie jar of sin admitted it. That’s not because they’re elders. They would have lied had they not been elders. Employees of mine, students of mine, and business associates of mine have done the same thing, in huge numbers.

            The kind of stuff most here complain WT does most people would do if put into the belief system WT has set up, and placed in positions of leadership there.

            The Bible story is about a battle of opposing ideas as much as it is opposing beings. The Bible claims most people will not take Christ’s side because they believe they will be better off not doing that. Essentially, that same reason is at the root of dishonesty. People believe they will be better off being dishonest.

        • Caroline says:

          messenger, you say your “first” wife? I don’t remember saying you got married again.

          • Ted says:

            There seems to be degrees of lying, there’s lies
            told to deceive and exploit others and there’s
            lies to cover up previous lies. These are bad lies
            that cause distress to others and are inexcusable.

            Then there’s less harmful, perhaps even good
            lies, these are told in order to spare the feelings
            of others and preserve harmony in all social areas
            especially in personal relationships, marriage etc.
            If everyone was brutally honest no one would
            have any friends,

            A bad experience of being lied to especially by
            someone close to us can cause us to feel everyone
            is a liar, but it’s not so. My brother in law was
            deceived by his wife, and he said “I’ll never trust
            another woman” but he eventually did trust another
            woman and married her.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            I did but I don’t like to readily share a lot of information about myself, so as not to be identified. Actually my sharing of enough for that to happen has already occurred. Even though the WT cannot hurt me like it’s hurt many of you by breaking up your families I’d sooner have no problems however small. I don’t associate with a lot of JWs, so I’m essentially bullet proof from WT’s guns. Nevertheless I don’t invite problems, and yes since I remarried, and my wife is a JW.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, you haven’t said anything about yourself at all. All we know is that you are a male, have grown children and teach and have been married at least 2 times and your 2nd wife is a JW and you have turned down positions in the congregations and now we find out you don’t talk to many JW’s. Most of us can tell our story without being “found” out.

            You do know a lot about Watchtower teachings but you don’t know much about how to defend Jehovah and you keep bringing up Jesus and being a Christian.

            What I don’t get is why you keep going to meetings when you have so much bad to say about Watchtower and how they don’t really have the “truth”.

            I dream about it at night with people like you who keep going to meetings when you know Watchtower does not teach the “truth”.

            Do you think Jehovah is going to step in and fix the Watchtower Society and then bring on Armageddon?

            What is Armageddon is just a myth? Your whole life in being in that organization and going to meetings and service and studying and assemblies was just a waste of your priceless life.

            Life is short and why spend it on myths?

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            I never became a JW to serve WT but God. So my doing that has nothing to do with my opinion about WT or whether I come in contact with it sometimes. What I don’t see you and some others doing in your comments is separate the beliefs, actions, and motivations of individuals from those of other persons. Maybe you don’t because most people are controlled by fear, so you might feel all people are following and must follow others in some group, either here or elsewhere. And in those groups share the same beliefs.

            For instance, who really cares much what Lot did except his family members and God. And yet you take an action by Lot and blow it all out of proportion assigning everyone else’s (Christian) values to it. Nobody cares anymore about Lot’s actions than yours or mine. And how many people do you see beating down your door to even find out what you think or do?

            In the same realistic way you can view everyone’s view of WT that doesn’t believe its false claims. We could view it as doing some good, spreading Christ’s message, though distorted, or we could consider it all bad because its message is distorted. I’m not the judge to say whether it is all bad. Christ is. If you judge you take the position of Christ. Yet I judge for myself what I do. And it is Biblically proper to point out apostasy and deception which is what I do while sharing truths I know about God. Your belief that I support WT is wrong. When have you read I support its teachings?

            As far as myths. You may wake up one day at Christ’s hand and learn that your whole belief system was a myth. I believe that is very likely. My belief is that you write about things you don’t know because of your limited experience, your own desires that separates you from God, and because of the deception that was forced upon you by your husband and WT.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            I’m not here to defend Jehovah. It’s not that I can’t do it. It’s that I choose not to. He’s big enough to defend himself, and he’s had others write enough in his behalf. Let those who seek him start with the Bible. And read it.

            If I perceive a person accepts a logical argument from scripture I’ll at times share one. But I have done so with you and others in the past here who did not accept clear logic. Remember I referred you to Lev chp 18 which you did not address but kept going on and on with your opinion based nonsense about Jehovah and Molech being the same person, though yours was clearly refuted in the one, two or three scriptures I did share with you? I shared scriptures about the anti Christ with dee2 that went unanswered even though those clearly refute her claim that the Bible teaches belief in Christ is not necessary for salvation.

            Most of what you think you teach as fact is nothing more than you giving your opinion about a lot of scriptures you quote. As if quoting scriptures proves your point. Uhh…did you learn the from WT? Because that is exactly what WT does in its writings. Maybe you were around WT so long you don’t even know you’re doing that. You might believe you’re teaching facts.

            Your claim above that I cannot defend Jehovah is even just an opinion and is representative of how you teach. I see you also, like WT, make claims about someone you disagree with that are dishonest. Because everything I’ve said here about not choosing to teach you scripture I have written in past posts. So, what is your game? Is it to keep rehashing your same false claims in every post assuming those won’t be refuted again and again? You teach like WT.

            No one is paying me to teach you and in the past posts I’ve stated I’m not taking on an obligation to do that. If people who read here have an honest heart with God’s help they’ll understand the few scriptural thoughts I choose to share now and then. If that’s the case they’ll also recognize the false comments of some other commenters, without me getting into lengthy debates with those commenters. Like the type you wish to draw me into.

          • Caroline says:

            @messenger we all thought that we were dedicating our lives to doing Jehovah’s will, didn’t we? I came to the conclusion many years ago already that either there were many scribal errors when it came to transcribing the Bible or the god of the Bible was a horrible god. As I found out now and most people who know anything at all about the Bible (either reading it or researching how we got it) know that it is not the word of any god and never was the word of any god and so I don’t care one way or another how it affects anybody.

            I don’t care about any doctrines of Watchtower and I never will again. I also don’t take seriously anything that the Bible has to say since I know that it’s only the writings of men who were goat herders thousands of years ago. It is interesting reading and that is all.

            If you want to live you life by that book, then go for it but don’t expect me to listen to anything you have to say that is evangelical in nature.

            I am entitled to use the Bible on this forum to point out the kind of god you worship. No opinions.

            All you can do is insult and demean with your comments. You never use the Bible. Why is that? You say it’s because you don’t want to but I say it’s because you can’t because you are the ignorant one when it comes to the Bible, not me, how it describes Jehovah. If you could defend your god Jehovah, you would. You worship what you do not know, just as Paul said in the Bible.

            Since you seem to have so much time on your hands, you should take some time to read about Jehovah. Start with the book of Judges chapter 18. That is the chapter where the Dannites didn’t have any city to call theirs so they went to the city of Laish and the people were peaceful and minding their own business and no one was oppressing them and so the Dannites took the city by force and killed all the people in the city and burned it and took over the city for themselves and all at the blessing of Jehovah as Judges 18:31 says.

            If you want to keep on not defending Jehovah with any scriptures, then keep coming back with your non helpful comments before accusing me or anybody else of making up “claims” against Jehovah.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            I possibly understand your position, you having put so much time into this. To you this is probably your work and what you consider your most noble gesture. Nevertheless you are wrong. One problem is that many people that speak in ignorance do not know they speak in ignorance. I’ve pointed out some of your false reasoning in the past. For instance, I gave you Lev 18:21 “And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thy profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord” KJ. That scripture clearly refutes your argument that the BIBLE proves Jehovah and Molech are the same god, and it also shows that Jehovah was against those human burnt sacrifices of children to Molech or himself, though many of you also falsely make that claim about Jephthah’s daughter, even though the Mosaic LAW is very clear about this point. No Christian agrees with you.Your claim is that God wanted those human burnt bodies of children. But just as you have in your post above you did not answer Lev 18:21. Is it because there is no logical answer to it that supports your claim? I can’t think of one. 2 Cor. 4:2-4 reads in part, “But we have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully….”

            Since we’re in Lev chp 18 vs 7-17 also refute your claims the Jehovah approved of Lot’s daughters having sex with him. Like I said Caroline you teach opinions not facts. Similar to much of WT’s teachings you do mix some facts with your opinions which is a necessity for any communicator. No one teaches all false words.

            So Caroline, does “thou shall not let any of thy seed pass through the fire of Molech” in Lev”18:21 mean what it says, or can you attach a false meaning to that? Why don’t you for once be very clear on that point, and stop changing your comment to words about me. Any intelligent reader will recognize your trick. Better to admit your mistake than to look foolish.

            Readers one of the reasons Caroline teaches Bible interpretations that are not accepted by ANY Christian denomination is because she not only implies God or other characters (such as Christians) accept the actions of some Bible characters, like Lot, but she insists they accept the actions of Bible characters as appropriate when the Bible does not state that and no Christian states it. Notice that she always picks an action that is disgusting by any normal persons morality, such as gang rape of burning children. A more logical approach to a written document is to only insist its words mean what they actually say, not our opinions about where those ideas might lead or minds to speculate about, unless there is clear evidence figurative language is being used, which is not the case with the scriptures Caroline often uses. If we insist written words must lead us to conclusions not explicitly stated then in reality those will lead us off a cliff. That is what happened to Caroline, and she wants you to follow her. “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch” Matt 15:14 KJ (Christ). Let’s see if Caroline is honest enough to explain Lev 18:21 in her next post.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            You have a chance to take the position of an honest adult in your answer to Lev chp 18. All regular readers of this post recognize you as a Bible reader (being a commenter frequently quoting scriptures). We assume you at least know scriptures common to all Westerners. And we accept your claims that you have read the Bible in its entirety.

            In many of your posts that are under several past articles you stated you would not follow any one of the commands given by Jehovah to the Jews in the Hebrew scriptures. And you challenged Ricardo an me to name even one of those commands that we observed. You did that several times demonstrating your strong position on that subject. You claimed you don’t believe those commands given by God to be moral and spoke about those as being disgusting to you.

            Even people who have not read the Bible as you have are familiar with some of Jehovah’s commands because those are sometimes referred to in moves. In essence those are common knowledge. Every modern government I’m aware of also incorporates some of those into their criminal law codes. Laws against stealing (Exodus 21:15), and laws against murder (Exodus 21:13) for instance are two of those laws given in the Hebrew scriptures. Another of the Laws Jehovah gave to the Jews and incorporated into modern criminal law is, ” Thou shalt not bear false witness..” Exodus 21:16 KJ. Are you holding to your claim that you do not choose to follow any of those laws given by Jehovah in our modern world? If so you will be considered a lawless one by all governments I’m aware of and by all citizens in those governments.

            If on the other hand you do believe we should not bear false witness, steal, or murder then your reading comprehension skills have been demonstrated to be severely lacking by your past comments. That is unless you’ve read the whole Bible with the exclusion of the ten commandments and were never aware the ten commandments were given by Jehovah to the Jews in the Hebrew scriptures.. So, as an observer of your comments I suggest, as I always have, that you either don’t know what you are talking about, and/or you are dishonest. If it’s that you just don’t know then at least that provides the reason why you teach your opinions as facts. Could that be the same reason WT does it, simple ignorance? They don’t understand connected words?

          • messenger says:

            an=and
            moves=movies
            In the comment above.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, it doesn’t matter what Leviticus says because of what Ezekiel 20:25,26 (read that in the King James to see what it “really” says) because that scripture, even in the NWT says it was Jehovah who gave the Jews the command to kill and offer up their children to Jehovah as burnt sacrifices says which is exactly what Acts 7:43 says.

            Do you believe what the Bible says? If you do, then take it for what it says, not what you think it is saying.

            No matter what scripture you come up with that makes Jehovah look like a good god, there’s others that say just the opposite of what the first scripture says about Him.

            If the god of the Hebrew Scriptures was real, then that god was horrible but because the Bible is full of contradictions, it says that the Bible is man made.

            The Watchtower says that because the Bible says it’s inspired of God, then it has to be inspired of God but that is not what makes it inspired.

            If it was actually inspired of any real god, then there would be no contradictions in it. A real god would have made sure of that but it’s full of contradictions, which proves that it is a man made collection of books.

            When we studied with the Witnesses, we didn’t know anything about the Bible and that is why they were able to convince us that it was inspired (god-breathed) and that is why we accepted what they told us, but they didn’t tell us about all the scriptures that describe Jehovah as a horrible personality who accepted human sacrifices.

            If the Watchtower actually had the courage to come up with a Bible that actually told the truth about the god they worship, nobody would want to worship that god. That is why they changed the account of Jephthah to make it look like Jephthah did not kill and burn his daughter to Jehovah but that is exactly what the Bible says but Witnesses are made to think the god they worship would not do such a thing but think about it.

            Why would that be so unthinkable when you think about all the millions of people (including babies) that Jehovah told the Jews to go into those cities and villages and slaughter all those people and the animals just because they lived there? What is so much different than that one daughter of Jephthah’s life when you compare to the millions of people that the Jews supposedly killed?

            If you read Numbers 31, you will see that those Jews were told to go into Midian and kill every man, woman and child but to keep the virgin girls for themselves. What kind of God do you worship?

            As to not killing people and not stealing and not lying, what makes those commands so different than what any people would do? I don’t need the Bible to tell me not to lie and kill and steal and neither do you. People are not animals. They can figure out those things for themselves without the Bible telling them not to do that but the Bible told people that they could buy and sell people as slaves and to kill a virgin who could not prove her virginity on her wedding night and to kill and burn prostitutes but approved of men having as many wives and concubines as they wanted.

            You think the Bible’s laws are so great. What about the not so great laws? Many millions of people were sold as slaves because of the Bible.

            People take on the personality of the god they worship. That is why Watchtower can treat people with no compassion and don’t care about all the children who have been disfellowshipped because they didn’t follow a man made rule of the Society. That is why they don’t care about all the people and children who have lost their lives due to blood transfusions.

            Cults demand exclusive devotion. That is Jehovah and that is Watchtower. They demand exclusive devotion and if anyone stands up to their claim to be God’s one and only organization that Jehovah is using, they will be kicked out with no family or friends to help them.

            The Protestant reformation was because the Catholic Church said that they were the only ones that God was using as who could properly interpret the Bible and that is exactly what Watchtower claims. They are the same as the Catholic Church and you are believing exactly what Watchtower claims even though your words say different.

          • messenger says:

            So I see you failed to answer my second post, the one right above yours here. Did you not understand the ten commandments are some of the commands Jehovah gave the Jews and are contained inside the Hebrew scriptures? Or do you believe in bearing false witness, since you stated several times you would not follow any command Jehovah gave the Jews written in the Hebrew scriptures? If you believe in bearing false witness, then why should anyone here accept any claim you make? If you knew a command against that is located in the Hebrew scriptures then why did you repeatedly say you would not follow it, especially since that is part of criminal law where you live? Do you decide to be lawless? Or do you just not understand what you read in the Bible?

            Let’s demonstrate another false claim that you just made, possibly due to lack of understanding on your part, but that’s not necessarily the reason, is it? You failed to comment on the Leviticus scriptures I gave you because they contradict several claims you made about the Bible and Jehovah. Instead now you claim the Bible contradicts itself, as the reason you refuse to answer my simple claims against your accuracy. Without getting in a never ending debate, which I’m pretty sure you’d attempt to draw me into, I’ll show your error in belief about Ezekiel 20:25, 26. First here is what you wrote about it, along with your refusal to comment on Lev:

            “messenger, it doesn’t matter what Leviticus says because of what Ezekiel 20:25,26 (read that in the King James to see what it “really” says) because that scripture, even in the NWT says it was Jehovah who gave the Jews the command to kill and offer up their children to Jehovah as burnt sacrifices says which is exactly what Acts 7:43 says.”

            Here is what Ezekiel 20:25,16 says in the King James Bible. “25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; (Romans 1:24, 2Thes 2:11)
            26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, IN THAT THEY CAUSED TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE all that opened the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.”

            Let’s look at vs 27 also which reads, “Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say to them, Thus saith the Lord God; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, I that they committed trespass against me.”

            Apostle Paul had a reasonable interpretation of these scriptures and referenced there events at Rom 1:24 and 2 Thes 2:11 which the KJ Bible includes here as reference scriptures. As with most of your interpretations of scriptures you got it wrong. Notice the words I italicized in your scripture. Those explicitly state “they” meaning the Jews caused the passing through the fire not God, the Lord, or Jehovah.

            In the scripture I included vs 27 the Bible goes on to say, “Thus saith the Lord God; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, I that they committed trespass against me.” I and all Christians understand that to mean “IN THIS” (what was described above) the Jews blasphemed and committed trespass against God.

            Caroline you a severely mistaken. Probably there are a number of psychological reasons for your erroneous position. I’ve covered this same material with you before, and now that I’m into it again I do remember commenting this same way on your Ezekiel scripture also. I only do so for readers here. I don’t believe you are either open enough to be logical or can understand written words logically enough for my words to have any effect on you. Maybe Christ has not given up on you yet and you will understand one day. I

            Best wishes Caroline. Pardon any grammar mistakes I do not wish to proof read this comment.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, it is a shame that you keep coming on here exposing yourself as to how ignorant you are of the Bible. The actual “ten” commandments are found at Exodus chapter 34 and here they are:

            (1) They were not to conclude any covenants with the inhabitants of the land where they were going
            (2)They were not to make molten idol gods for themselves
            (3) They were to keep the festival of unfermented cakes
            (4) They were to redeem every firstborn of men and animal as they belonged to Jehovah (later on it was explained that anything redeemed was to be killed and then offered to Jehovah
            (5) They were to keep the Sabbath
            (6) They were to keep the festival of weeks
            (7) Three times a year all the males had to apear before Jehovah
            (8) They were not to slaughter along with what was leavened the blood of Jehovah’s sacrifice of the festival of the passover should not stay overnight until the morning.
            (9) The best of the ripe fruits they were to bring to Jehovah
            (10) and last but not least, they were not to boil a kid in it’s mother’s milk.

            messenger. Which of those commands are you keeping today that you think we should all follow as well?

            You are ignorant when it comes to the Bible. Why not read it and come back and comment where your comments actually make any sense?

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            Here’s a quote from Wikipedia that you could have easily uncovered and no doubt you have. You could have also looked up what is commonly referred to as the 10 commandments on many other wed sites also.

            “The Ten Commandments[change | change source]

            The Ten Commandments, also known as the Decalogue, found in the Ark of the Covenant are:
            1.I am the Lord your God, thou shall have no other gods before me.
            2.Thou shall not make any graven images of things above the Earth or on the Earth or beneath the Earth or worship them.
            3.Thou shalt not use the Lord’s name in vain.
            4.Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy. In so doing you declare the Lord to be the creator of all things and that he is the redeemer of his people
            5.Honor and get on with thy father and mother so you will have a long good life
            6.Thou shall not kill people
            7.Thou shall not commit adultery
            8.Thou shall not steal
            9.Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbour
            10.Thou shall not covet anything of thy neighbour’s or anything else as well. (Wikipedia)

            Your deception and evasive tactics by changing the topic gets thicker and thicker. You like WT are trapped in your false past statements. But at least WT changes some of its positions with its “new light.” Since you choose not to admit to your obvious wrong positions who is more guilty, you or WT? Let the readers decide.

            The point you repeated in several past posts was not that messenger does not know what the 10 commandments are, the point was that you would follow no commandment given by Jehovah ever (whether the 10 commandments or any others given to the Jewish nation). Rather than address that you choose to cloud the issue with deception. And like WT you choose to smear your opponent with false statements when he points out truths regarding the incompetence found in your teaching.

            So Caroline, let’s draw a line graph and let the readers here decide which side most closely represents your teachings. And please be aware most of the readers here probably never comment on these posts, so any visible support here won’t really help you.

            ———————————————————————
            Falsehoods Truths

            You know what side of the graph I put your teaching on.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            ——————————————
            Falsehoods Truths

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, I think it’s funny how you get your information about the Bible by going to Wikipedia instead of actually reading your own Bible. You need to start reading your Bible before you start commenting about the ten commandments. If you actually take your Bible out and dust it off and read it you will see that, starting in Ex. chapter 12, even before they supposedly left Egypt, Jehovah was already giving Moses the commandments that the Jews were to follow forever including the Passover and then in chapter 13:1, they are told that to sanctify every male firstborn that opens the womb, both man and beasts because the belonged to Jehovah.

            (Why do you think polygamy was so accepted?) (Maybe because there were so many fewer males than females because the firstborn were all killed and offered up to Jehovah as burnt sacrifices?) (Just a thought)

            Messenger, the supposed ten commandments actually amounted to 67 commandments starting in Exodus chapter 20 and those commandments were verbal, not on stone. The first set of stone tablets were all about setting up the tabernacle. Those were the stones that Moses supposedly threw and smashed.

            I get such a kick out of people like you who think they know all about the ten commandments even when they read the Bible. The elders came over to my place and were trying to find out about why I wasn’t going to the meetings and I was telling them that they don’t even know anything about the Bible such as the ten commandments and the one elders said to me “don’t you believe in the ten commandments?” and I said to him, you don’t know what the ten commandments even are and I said that one of the “actual” ten commandments was that they weren’t to boil a kid in it’s mother’s milk and the “actual” ten commandments where the Bible actually says “these are the ten “words” (commandments) is in Exodus chapter 34, not Exodus 20 like what most people think.

            I hope it gave that elder pause because even the Watchtower Society wrongly says that the ten commandments were written on stone and so that is one more reason I have absolutely no respect for those men and the Governing Body for printing lies like that.

            Just because most people believe the ten commandments include not lying, stealing and committing adultery or murder, doesn’t make it the ten commandments. If you go on to read the rest of those commandments, you will see that it includes killing and offering up their first born to Jehovah as burnt sacrifices and who of you are going to do such a thing?

            People did not need those commandments to know not to kill, lie, murder or steal. Were those people killing and stealing before being given those commandments? Were the nations breaking Jehovah’s laws and that is why they were all killed by Jehovah or was it simply because the Jews were a bloodthirsty group of men who liked taking what they wanting and killing every man woman and child to get what they wanted at the behest of their god?

            There is no evidence of any Jews being in Egypt and being Egyptian slaves. There is no evidence of their being in the wilderness for 40 years and there is no evidence of any of those cities even being in existence during the time that those Jews supposedly killed all those people in those cities and villages.

            It’s all man made stories and I don’t need those stories not to lie or steal or murder and neither do you.

            I already know enough not to do those things. That is why I don’t need those laws in the Mosaic Law to the Jews. I grew up without religion and I never stole or lied or murdered before becoming a Witness but it was the Witness religion is what taught me to lie.

            I lied when it came to defending the Bible and I lied when it came to defending the Society. I actually thought that there was a god that was directing the Watchtower Society and I stuck up for that god.

            No matter how bad the Witnesses were and no matter how much I disagreed with the Society, I never blamed Jehovah because I thought Jehovah was perfect and real but now I believe that Jehovah was only an invention of goat herders thousands of years ago.

            How I was able to open up my eyes was by taking the Bible and reading it and meditating on it and taking notes and thinking about what I was reading and letting it sink in.

            It is hard to accept that God may not be real but I have accepted that and I have accepted that my life is all that it may be and I have accepted the fact that I am nearing the end of my life and I am thankful that at least now I am not afraid of that God anymore and I don’t have to make excuses for that God any more.

            If you want to believe in that god, I think you have some explaining to do. I believe that anybody who actually reads their Bible and sticks up for that God is despicable for accepting the despicable things that that god did.

            The only excuse I have for people like that is that they actually don’t read it but only want to believe that that god is a loving and merciful and just god because they are ignorant of the Bible and that what I want to believe of you also.

            I don’t want to believe that you are evil but only ignorant of what the Bible actually says of the god Jehovah but you keep coming back here with comments to prove me wrong.

          • messenger says:

            @Caroline

            Unfortunately for you, you spend most of your time chuckling and gloating that you are the only one that reads and understands the Bible because no Christians agree with you, so they must not read or understand it. Does that sound like a logical position to take?

            The fact that you just claimed you were taught to lie and have done so many times is finally addressing the point I raised that you have previously avoided. So to be clear you don’t agree to observe the commandment against bearing false witness given by God because you claim the WT taught you to lie, and therefore you’ve done that many times?

            That’s very unfortunate WT had that effect on you. I used to teach for them, but I never lied for them, not even once. Nor will I, even for a big inheritance (no matter how big). Did you ever consider that this could have happened as a dividing process for some of the sheep and the goats? Put us in the same circumstance and observe what we CHOOSE to do about it?

            Jesus was in a similar situation. His advice to us was to bear our own cross like he did and remain faithful to God. Those that have not are not with Christ. Christ claimed if you are not with him you are against him. Thus the reason for your malicious false claims against his god and father. That’s the reason no Christians agree with you. Not because you have a better understanding of scripture.

            Here, another mistake of yours:
            “Watchtower Society wrongly says that the ten commandments were written on stone and so that is one more reason I have absolutely no respect for those men and the Governing Body for printing lies like that.”

            Your claim is proven false in several scriptures. One is Ex 34:1. WT was correct with that claim. Every Christian agrees.

  14. Sharon Christensen says:

    They do not call it lying…tis Theocratic warfare, not? Toni , Morris and the whole lot are a disgusting and crooked .Emoji movie! For sure the endz here! Enjoy. I am waiting for Gru and Bro Drew…;)

  15. Sharon Christensen says:

    Sorry…bunch is missing from last comment…bin waiting fir the end here…perhaps no knead to invest in new comp…unfortunately, not here yet…so soon gotta count some coins and go purchase one…miss far to much info you all are posting with a tired and pooped out puter! Keep it comming……gd jobberz…

  16. Ted says:

    Sin vs Crime. Sin defined as, “Transgression against
    Devine Law” ( Which can vary depending on which God
    you choose).
    Crime,= “An action or omission constituting an offence
    Punishable by Law”.

    Sin is dealt with by prayer, confession to a priest or church
    pastor or elders etc. Non of whom are trained to deal with
    with crime, especially the “Crime of Pedophilia” which is
    an obsessive, compulsive disorder, (OCD), not to mention
    the expert counsel required to help traumatised young
    victims.

    I had a months intensive training on WT, policy and no
    distinction was made between sin and crime. The class
    was told that the WT, judicial system (elder arrangement)
    was superior to the worlds law courts, because it was
    Theocratic and so no need to involve the law. Somehow
    Rom,13:1-7 was conveniently ignored.

    They have the delusory idea that they are like a sovereign
    state answerable to no one but their God. So when the
    serious crime of pedophilia affects them, the instructions
    are, “First call the Branch Office”. Elders who want to do
    what’s moral and lawful, should “First call the Police” .
    Otherwise they risk prosecution themselves for criminal
    concealment.

  17. Ted says:

    It’s pertinent that in the “Shepherding the Flock book,
    immediately following the section on child abuse.
    It discusses the subject of, “Taking Brothers to Court”
    citing 1 Cor, 6: 1-8, and how Paul says to settle
    disputes within the congregation.

    They’re publishing articles in the mags, now saying how
    they abhor child abuse admitting, at last, that it’s crime
    and the police need to be informed. This is nothing
    more than PR, their actions expose their real concern.
    Pigheadedly insisting on 2 witnesses, ensures that most
    cases will never see the light of day.

    • outandabout says:

      So telling, Ted. How interesting that if the KH suffers a break-in, the Police are to be notified immediately and even a special form to be filled out for this scenario exists, apparently. But when a suspected or known rape of a child exists, the legal department are to be notified immediately, but when a case goes to court the WT desperately try to distance themselves from any involvement and claiming the whole affair is none of their business anyway. They simply can’t get a thing right around this issue and everything they say and do sends them further into the swamp. Good bloody job!

  18. Sharon Christensen says:

    In all my dealings with the…”Dear Bros”, the uppity ups…their main conern was…”appearance”… keep a “whitewashing ” the graves kinda thing….normal feelings for “widows, orphans, battered and abused, troubled, etc., in the midst of the flock…least of their concern, step on and over..if not a bit of coin to recieve from…remove…but send..”.bit coin” their way…..muscles, tithe pantz…;). no pantz…ez no problem…turn a blind eye…and the udder check…From my own experience…with one breath…call a person Jezebel…flash a bit of casholah…ZUP!!! Like my ol comp! Then walk away. Money talks….It does not take rocket science to realize…how many pedophiles, say come on over here…I am gonna pedophile away and I need you to Witness!…No wonder they say…”remember the wife of Lot”…. but Lot, pedophile away..And is good example. They are all disgusting in what they approve of and how they cover over … If I find a mag or pamphlet…I mark on it…chk Jw facts or Jw Survey for the …REAL Truth About The TRUTH!!!

  19. Ricardo says:

    I want to ask you guys for some help. I have been trying to add a comment to Shiam Tyico on the post about the set of outlines being leaked online. I try and try and try but my comment won’t come up, and now it says it is a duplicate comment but still my original comment doesn’t appear. Caroline’s comment appears there. Messenger’s comment does too. So do some others. My comment is not under moderation, it just won’t appear.

    Anyone know what’s going on?

  20. Markie says:

    Actually none of the statistics that are being posted here make any sense. I don’t understand how someone people can not see it. Quick example somebody mentioned that there were 4,400 cases of abuses reported by the Catholic Church (not even sure what that number means or if it is even true). Do Catholics even report child abuse to the church? I would think very few even do. I would say they report them properly to the police like the JWs should. Comparing of these statistics is really intellectually dishonest and fallacious reasoning.

    That being said, the way the WTBT has handled many of these cases in the past are dead wrong. Any suspected child abuse should be turned over to the authorities. Angus Stewart brought some very good points to show the two witness rule is just plain stupid.

    I would think that the cases of child abuse amongst JWs is no higher then the general population.

    • Caroline says:

      Markie, on what proof do you have to support your “thinking” thaf child abuse amongst JW’s is no higher than the general population?

      Belonging to an organization that abhors being in the news for any accusations of covering up for child abuse at the cost to the victims of being expelled for bringing it to the police to me spells a pedophile paradise.

      • Twistedsister69 says:

        Right on, Caroline! … TS69 checking in from the Apple Store again. 🙂
        Let folks speculate all they like. I am “out & about”, spreading the FACTS in my usual discreet, diplomatic manner. 😀 😀 😀

    • messenger says:

      Markie

      I believe outandabout got those numbers from what was reported to the ARC. I didn’t check those but I’ve read a lot from outandabout, and I think he’s too sharp to post wrong numbers, those that were not reported to ARC, and do so multiple times on this site. You can verify by going to the ARC reports if you want.

      But the general scandal with the Catholics in the USA involved pedophile priests not lay church members like those in WT’s files. So I still don’t think you could fairly compare the numbers. To be fair Catholics would have to have a policy of collecting all accusations of pedophilia by any members in their church and then they would have had to have turned those over to the ARC. Also the time spans for collecting the data would have to be similar. I’m not aware of that happening. Maybe it did, but maybe it didn’t. My best guess is that all elements of the collection and reporting processes were not similar.

    • outandabout says:

      Markie, that 4400 figure I referred to is what was unearthed, not reported by the Church. The figures for all abuse figures are in all probability even higher, given that a large number of rape cases in the general population don’t get reported to the police.
      Surely these figures must be a guideline to the actual truth but we can never be certain unless everybody comes forward.
      Your comment that the abuse cases among JW’s may be no higher than the general population……I’m not convinced because the general population does not have a two witness rule, the victims are not afraid of upsetting Jehovah and thereby risking death and nor are they afraid of losing their friends and family and nor are they encouraged not to report. The WT created the perfect storm for the rape of children. A paradise for Pedophiles.

  21. Sharon Christensen says:

    Twisted tight spanx on this sis…chking apple store on line…comp sputterin again! Suspect endz hear soon….Anyhoo….interesting off comment perhaps…TV show…Alone …says We are meant to be with people we are emotionally attached to…that is how we are made…..That is why JW,org uses shunning as a way to hold on to people….Wiillard….a victim of ….We are only human! Bros fuzzin signals again? SLOW!!!! commin and going! Think they would have better things to do….? I “show and tell”,from facts not like JW.org does…stick it in peoples face….lie? NO…but I have my ways….

  22. NJ says:

    Why is the JW organisation afraid to change their policy about reporting to the police?
    It seems irrational since their is never two witnesses. I’m told its the parents responsibility to report to the police but what if it is the parent who is abusing.

    • messen says:

      My best guess is WT’s desire to keep the squeaky clean image of WT and JWs intact as much as possible. They usually claim their reason is to keep the perception of Jehovah in good sanding, but remember they claim to be his only Earthy representatives, so their actions reflect on how people perceive God. This they admit. But I believe there’s more.

      Also, the more control WT can have on the families of those that are abused the less those families will decide to sue. Once WT starts turning over every abuser to the police, civil representatives will have some influence over the abused families. If WT prevents that it probably sees itself warding off potential litigation. That’s the kind of short term thinking I claimed is one of the reasons people lie. And the consequences for the decisions WT made years ago to control its members are just recently, in the last five years or so, starting to hurt WT.

  23. Aaron Gallegos says:

    As a Circuit overseer on my 4th circuit, I can say that JW’s follow the Organization instead of the Bible or Christ. The Bible is only used when convenient and to assert authority. Any JW that reads the Bible alone and with a clear, unbiased mind will realize they are in a cult.

    • Twistedsister69 says:

      … Or, in the case of the Watchtower Babble & Tricks Society, a SUPERCULT.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Aaron, I read the Bible with a clear, unbiased mind and I realize I am in a cult.

    • eyes opened says:

      Well Aaron if that’s your real name…I hope you have some job skills up your sleeve…

    • Big B says:

      @ Arron;

      How can you, with a clear conscience, continue to make your rounds in the circuit knowing that this organization is a cult? How can you serve a hypocritical U.N. joining Catholic wanna be? Can you truly believe that this is God’s earthly organization and he will fix it shortly?

      Can’t you see that the hand writing is on the wall?
      No growth;
      No contributions;
      Closing of branches;
      Pedophile problems with lawsuits that have bedeviled the organization with no end in sight; and yet you still serve this whore as a circuit overseer? How can you do this with a clear conscience?

      If I believed what you profess to believe, I would call all the elders together and tell them what’s going on and resign immediately! That is if you are who and what you say you are. Otherwise you are not a solution but part of the problem, you are perpetuating this cult!

  24. Doc Obvious says:

    I was at lunch one day with one of my coworkers and we had a discussion regarding religion. I told him that my parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses. He told me that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a “high maintenance” religion. Those words, “high maintenance”, stuck in my mind. I felt those 2 words really do describe Watchtower Babble and Tract Society. In addition, it amazes me how those who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses view the Jehovah’s Witnesses. High Maintenance.

  25. Sharon Christensen says:

    No use to pic on poor Serena…She must be a kindly sort if does the UNICEF thing…as a kid…come Oct. the other school kids got this little box thing they could put together, and during the day on or closest to Halloween they could go around town and ask for contributions towards helping kids thru UNICEF, I would have loved to do such, seemed like a good way to help poor and underpriviledged child/families have some help…unfortunately, as a good Witness child I knew that it was a part of the wickedness of Satans world that would get wound up with Halloween celebrations…so Mother kept us home…only times we could go amoung people and ask for money was for the books and magazines the Jw orgy made us sell…then latter just ask for donations so as to avoid income tax. One teacher felt sorry for me and gave me a box to put together…I treasured it, hid it from my Mom, cuz she would for sure burn it and give me a chewin match for taking it! That night in my prayer to Jehovah…I prayed long and hard for His forgiveness for my badness…next day I felt soooo guilty of sin that I took the box and put it in our old wood heater myself and lit it on fire…guess what it burned up fast, what a relief! For a certainty, it must have been possessed by some demon…as most things that the Jw org did not approve of were, not? See Serena kindly supports UNICEF…Good! That way the HI maintenance JWogry, gets money from her…Then if she gives to UNICEF…the poor Childern/families can buy a goat, chicken etc., sell it, and give it to….yep, you guessed it…JEHOVAH!!! AKA Toni, Morris, Stephen, Flett and on and on….Win win situation! ;)-

  26. twistedsister69 says:

    Thinking back to all those wonderfully convoluted publications we used to go through in the old “book study” groups (YAWN), I can’t help but wonder, What were the GB smoking in those days? Of course, with the GB’s current behavior, one can’t help but wonder if THOSE guys are on something even STRONGER!!! Hey, I might like to get my hands on some of that “Holy Spirit”! LMAO And who is their TRUE supplier? Johnnie Walker maybe? I mean, drink enough of that sh*t, and YOU’LL be seeing flying dragons & overlapping generations too, as well as expecting there to be 2 witnesses to every incidence of child rape. “Holy Spirit”? More like “Holy Spirits”!!! LOL ….. Yup, in the tradition of the good ol’ Judge himself, J.F. Rutherford. LMFAO Way to keep a tradition alive Fellas!

    • Ted says:

      TS, Those book studies , for me it was almost
      30 years of filling my mind with pure hog wash.
      Could we say we had been learning the truth
      when we came home from those sessions?
      Can’t have been, all that stuff has been relegated
      to the old light, or the truth as we understood it
      then, dept.

      123 types and anti types, now have to be forgotten
      after all those years of trying to make sense of them.
      One that I had most trouble with was Jonah and the
      mariners, Jonah pictured the remnant and the
      mariners were the O, sheep, but it was the mariners
      who threw Jonah overboard, doesn’t make sense!
      Oh happy days, or should that be slap happy days!

  27. Ricardo says:

    I was talking to a witness acquaintance today about the court cases Watchtower has lost and how so many millions of dollars of our donations must be paid as compensation to the victims. He said that in any organization there will be child abuse happening. I replied that in other organizations, for instance air safety, when there is a plane crash the investigative team is sent straight away to find out the reason for the crash, and recommendations are implemented immediately, in order to save lives. In our organization, the GB knows what is wrong but does nothing. So the same mistake is repeated again and again, and victims are needlessly created.

    He asked me why am I telling him. What can he do about it? Nothing. Only Jehovah can do something about it.

    What reasoning! He started talking about the child abuse in the Catholic Church. I should have asked him why is he telling me. There’s nothing I can do about it.

    The nodding zombies don’t want to know anything negative that is happening in their organization. It blows my mind.

    • Big B says:

      @ Ricardo,

      And this surprises you? Jehovah’s witnesses are stupid and blinded by their own unbelievable teachings and doctrines. They can’t handle the truth about the Truth. Of course they don’t want to hear anything negative about their stupid cult. Not one of them living today, as I write this, will be alive to see Armageddon or their non-scriptural, dancing panda, paradise earth fantasy. And that goes double for who they are witnessing to. The fact is this, if any of this nonsense is true, and I don’t believe that it is, because people believed the same things were happening during the Middle Ages, then the “great crowd” hasn’t been born yet. Armageddon may be centuries away, if it is true at all.

      What’s more, I still haven’t heard a peep from our enlightened “Circuit Overseer” Arron concerning my inquiries mentioned above. Aren’t those questions about his career fair enough and worthy of a response?

      Or did he get a change of heart and retreat back into the distopian darkness of his “assignment ” like the cowardly cockroach most Jehovah’s Witnesses are? Let’s see if this draws our wayward boy out. I’ve told my story without any reservations now Arron, if you truly exist, let’s hear your story and what you plan to do about the cult you are employed by, please. Or you can turn yourself in and resign for your faithlessness for visiting an apostate website and calling your precious organization a cult! The choice to respond is yours or do you want to continue in your Orwellian assignment blowing the purple smoke of indoctrination up the ” sheepel’s” rectums? Oh well, it’s a living, huh.

      • peggy says:

        @Big B. That C.O. retreated. I want to add something along this line of never retreating and not being ashamed of leaving. I am from Norfolk VA. You’re from Tidewater, too. I met some old pioneer and her bethel daughter and son in law recently, When asked what congregation I in, I became afraid and lied to them. WHY did I do that. It made me so ashamed of myself. I mentioned this to my daughter and she said next time just tell the truth. You never know who you may help by explaining. So, I got a do over. I met another witness from my old congregation. After hugging, She asked where am I now? I told her I quit. She took me in her arms, and said “I have something to tell you” I then had a long discussion on how badly she and her family have been treated by elders. She ended by saying she is still going to the hall, but would never want anyone to join this religion. She was grateful she could express herself to me, since she can’t talk to anyone else. I just can’t imagine why they still go?? Probably for family sake, and she still has lots of love for jehovah. I told her to contact me if she ever needs somene to talk to. She told me to never be ashamed of leaving. And, I am not. I told her how very happy I am. Free to thinkl for myself. Thank you for letting me express this experience.

  28. twistedsister69 says:

    @Aaron Gallegos

    If u r indeed & sinceriously whom u claim 2 b, I have a suggestion 4 u:

    Phase I
    Secure financial support/resources – a wealthy aunt, gainful employment (I’m sure u possess some marketable skills; put together a nice resume/CV, u know, half-full of awesome-sounding lies & exaggerations & fancy terminology – don’t worry, everyone’s doing it; if the HR person calls u out, screw them & move on), or even check out ur local Unemployment / Welfare Department & ‘splain ur sit-a-ation. Don’t be 2 proud. After all, money is money. NO ONE really gives a damn where it comes from.

    Phase II – let’s call this The Fun Part
    Once ur material future is secured, start raising Hell. Use ur position as Circus Overseer to begin challenging the Borg, questioning doctrine, bringing up the child abuse issue, wondering out loud why the “divinely-inspired light” keeps changing & changing & changing, generally raising as many doubts as u can. This is where Passive-Aggressiveness REALLY comes in handy!!! Of course, we all know it won’t b long B4 u’re demoted. So u gotta work fast. Then, act beaten & “chastised”. STFU 4 a while while keeping ur head low & acting “sheepish” (no pun intended). Then start up again, not too slow, not too fast. U will likely b publicly reproved. Rinse & Repeat … until the inevitable Disfellowshipping. U will have had a ball & really enjoyed sticking it to those A-holes. Then throw a party & drop a big steaming deuce on the front porch of the KH at 4 A.M. OK, that last bit is optional. But I would recommend baked beans & a bran muffin 4 dinner the nite B4, should u choose 2 go that route. 😀

    That is ur mission if u choose to accept it. This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds.

    • Caroline says:

      twistedsister69, I don’t know what it means to drop a steaming deuce but it sounds like maybe poop like what Jehovah told Ezekiel to do (poop and collect it to bake bread with it) and then put that steaming deuce on the front porch of the Kingdom Hall and then the Circuit Overseer could lay on his side for 390 days like Ezekiel did and bake bread with that steaming deuce and then eat that bread and then lay siege to a clay tablet to spell the end of Watchtower.

    • Sharon Christensen says:

      He he….if they call u in for …deucin on the frnt step, don’t blame the purple sheep! Ask ….is there…Two Wts? Ps….mk sure neighbors etc are still snoozin before you drop the..load! Thats wht partying withJF Rutherfjord and Jonny Walker will get cha…gonna loose yer bowls fairly fast…4am, kinda early …shift wrker? Doubt if Aaron has that much spunk to face all the deucin the Gb and their sheeple elders dump on a person once the…..scales fall from ones eyes and the u can see clearly what a load of…deuce one has been served since the Jw orgy got concocted. If he does not have a rich Aunt to mooch off of…can always mooch off someone elses…that is what they did to ours….

  29. Ricardo says:

    @Big B,
    Not all witnesses respond the way the clown I mentioned did, but of course most do.

    I had a very interesting conversation with a brother today, let’s call him Bro. X. I passed on to him copies of the Trey Bundy article about Gonzalo Campos (www.postguam.com/how-jehovah-s-witnesses-leaders-hide-child-abuse-secrets-at/article_9afefd94-c2c4-11e6-a078-3fcae784af9f.html), and the newspaper articles about the court loses to Conti (http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/14/jehovahs-witnesses-molested-woman-court-fremont/) and ‘Amelia’ (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33201010).

    Bro. X was very interested because he has recently changed congregations to get his 7-year-old daughter away from a 60-year-old brother who wouldn’t leave the little girls alone. Not only his family but all together 16 people moved so as to protect the children.

    Bro. X had gone to the elders 6 months earlier and had told them what was happening, but Bro. X feels that because the offending brother was a son of an elder, then no action was taken, no change took place. My mother who was in that congregation at that time has confirmed to me that the offending brother was touching the little girls a bit too much and she expected him to be spoken to about it. Bro. X complained today that the girls were getting their bottoms patted by this guy, my mother says he was touching them too much, and another brother who observed all the goings on tells me that the 60-year-old was giving sweets to the girls although the parents had asked him not to, and that he was acting in a way a 60-year-old should know not to act.

    Bro. X and another parent talked to the 60-year-old and told him to leave their children alone on several occasions, but he continued to. Bro. X told me he had to make the decision whether to smash the 60-year-old’s head into a wall and inform the police, or to move congregations. So they all moved congs.

    However, now there is the rumour that they have slandered the 60-year-old. Upon doing some police investigations (possibly with Bro. X’s neighbour who is a policeman; Bro. X didn’t state that they used him however) Bro. X has found that the offending 60-year-old has a police record for interfering with children.

    I doubt that Bro. X will take this further.

    The Australian Child Protection Document says that “any congregation member who learns of child abuse may choose to report the matter to the secular authorities”. I would happily do so. I have the 60-year-old’s name and address. But what I have heard from others, as stated above, is not enough to be called child abuse, right?

    Any suggestions on what to do? Whether to inform anyone, and if so who?

    • Big B says:

      @ Ricardo

      It’s really up to Brother X as he is the one whose child has been affected by the unwanted attentions of this 60 year old. That being said, you could warn the police of what you know of and have heard. Then the authorities can handle the situation as they wish.

      Without proof of anything but inappropriate and unwanted touching I don’t know of anything the police can do but wait and see if anything more serious happens. They may or may not confront the 60 year old and give him a stern warning about how this might be construed as a form of sexual harassment. Maybe this will be enough to scare the hell out of him, hopefully. This cockroach does not want the light of the community to reveal what he’s up to and may persuade him to stop or leave the congregation.

      However, your conscience and Christian obligation are satisfied by reporting a possible problematic situation. The elders don’t have the power or courage to stop this outrageous behavior of a pandering pervert. What is their problem? Are all parents with minor children going to have to change congregations to get any peace of mind? What if Mr. Bottom-Patter decides to follow Brother X by changing congregations too? Then what? Will he have to change localities by moving?

      Maybe the best course is to do what the elders should do, but won’t; report what you know personally and then see what happens. Hopefully you will get some backup from others who have seen this inappropriate behavior including Brother X, but I doubt it. At least you’ve done your part as the elders sure haven’t.

      Big B

  30. M Saurus says:

    Every parent whose children have been inappropriately or unwantedly touched should immediately call the police on that 60 year old perv – and so should anyone who knows about it – or it’s ON THEM. It’s not up to the victims to come up with proof. Let the investigation begin and the authorities will look for proof and interview everyone involved.

    And, please, Sharon Christensen, speak English….

  31. Ted says:

    Big B, your suggestion to Ricardo to report this persistent
    fondler of little girls to the police is the right advice, but
    with respect to Ricardo I don’t think he will be doing that.

    I was interested in his excuse for remaining in this nest of
    corruption. He said that Jesus remained in the corrupt
    religion of his day while speaking out against it, however
    there’s a yawning chasm here. Jesus was right out in the
    open, preaching from the rooftops, drawing crowds of
    thousands, Matt,10, 27. It got him executed! –>

    Ricardo’s contribution seems to be, making elders
    uncomfortable with awkward questions, dropping hints
    to brothers and commenting here under a pseudonym.
    Not much personal risk there, but could be a conscience
    salver, I’d love for him to prove me wrong.

  32. M Saurus says:

    I am amazed at how Ricardo and Aaron Gallegos (a circuit overseer helping to brainwash others!!) can be such hypocrites. If you know it’s a cult and doing so much harm, then how can you sit and nod at the meetings or stand and sing the songs? Guilt by association, people! If you’re “in” – you are as bad as any of the child abusing elders.

    • Big B says:

      Ditto to both M. Saurus and Ted;

      As stated before, unless you have family shunning to consider or as in my case a sizable inheritance ($) to collect there is no reason to stay. Unless you 1) truly believe that the Watchtower has the “Truth” and Jehovah will straighten matters out in his due time (whenever that may or may not be); 2) just plain “beaten wife syndrome”; beaten and humiliated for so long that they don’t know any better and feel they can’t leave, or most likely 3) plain old Jehovah’s Witness cowardice afraid of the unknown, and uncomfortable taken the lead in anything much less leaving a powerful cult.

      “Ricardo’s contribution seems to be, making elders uncomfortable with awkward questions, dropping hints to brothers and commenting here under a pseudonym.
      Not much personal risk there, but could be a conscience salver, I’d love for him to prove me wrong”. Ted, Ricardo will not be able to prove you wrong; he like so many Jehovah’s Witnesses is a TALKER not a DOER. A FOLLOWER of men not a LEADER among men.
      All true Christians try to follow the Christ but when an organization proves itself apostate do we leave or stay.

      Not to pile on Ricardo but if it walks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is quite possible and probable that we have a duck. Most definitely what we have described does not fit the definition of a hippopotamus! (Latin: res ipsa loquitur or “the thing speaks for itself”).

      So what Ted, M. Saurus and others are saying is this: If you attend meetings at the Kingdom Hall, and are seen going out in field ministry (with whatever message you deliver as only Mormon’s and Jehovah’s Witnesses do this nuttiness) answer at the those meetings, attend all functions and assemblies of Jehovah’s Witnesses are you not in truth a Jehovah’s Witness? Wouldn’t everyone think that you are of like mind and in lock step with the Watchtower? How about those in the community, or at the Hall or Circuit?

      Like the Monty Python skit of the witch in the HOLY GRAIL, “how do you know she is a witch? Angry Mob: “She looks like one”.

      You my friend, look like one! or in Latin; Confundant actibus vestris sermones tui (Your actions belie your claims).

      Enough said.

      Big B

      • messenger says:

        Big B

        So Big B, did you just admit that you are a sell out against your moral principles and beliefs for money (a sizeable inheritance)?

        • Big B says:

          @ messenger:

          Absolutely, money talks and b.s. walks (just ask the faithful and discreet slave). Religion is “a snare and a racket” and has been nothing but a hinderance to my family and I have no problem with placing it in its proper place. Like number 365 in my heart.

          Now in regards to your comments concerning my “moral principles” I have not attended any meetings since I found out TTATT and when does stupid religion with it’s Crusades, witch trials and constant war against science ever constitute a moral compass?

          My inheritance came to me when those relatives that bequeathed monies and properties were unable to make changes in their wills but I had left Watchtower years beforehand. Yes, call it luck or serendipity but that’s exactly what happened. Really, is this any of your business,
          I mean it, really? Are you with the IRS?

          However, I’m well off and retired, free to come and go as l please, travel anywhere I wish at any time I wish. All this l have managed to have by being smarter than the cult following, Bible thumping, dumb asses waiting for a “new system” that no one will live to see. So no cults, no meeting attendance, no field service to bother myself with and no judgmental losers to contend with. I only wish others were as fortunate as I have been, Watchtower free and independently well off.

          Now, messenger if you will excuse me (or not as it makes no difference) I have a tee time schedule and must bid you a fond farewell. Oh, and good luck with that “moral principles and beliefs” thing or whatever? How is that working out for you?

          Big B.

          • messenger says:

            Like I claimed long ago every now and then I read a comment here, but it’s rare, that gives me a big chuckle. I’m not putting down your comment above this but it did. None that funny since the one Winston wrote, asking if the commenter that claimed she was molested and then stated most molested people molest others suggested she might not realize what she just said.

            Its good to know you’re living the life. No judgment from me for that Big B despite my previous comment. Man I’m not going to bother to do this but I wish I had a book of these few comments that make me laugh so good..

            One very interesting thing in many comments is the judgmental attitude and mistreatment many commenters have experience from JWs. Its interesting because we live in different parts of the world, and yet the same bad treatment has occurred to us all. Or at least it appears to have occurred to most who comment here.

        • M Saurus says:

          At least Big B had the guts to finally break free. Which you and Ricardo, for all your spouting off, DO NOT.

  33. Doc Obvious says:

    Watchtower’s dishonest practices involve taking donations and spending money foolishly on construction that is only used to get rich quick when selling their properties. Speculating when the end of the system will happen and telling their people to sell everything and preach is committing fraud.

    Watchtower allows slander in their Kingdom Halls. Severe slander that ruins people’s reputation and causes severe emotional and physical harm goes unpunished.

    A Governing Body member making false statements to judges when asked questions pertaining to child sexual abuse is an example of bearing false witness and malicious lying.

  34. twistedsister69 says:

    RE: Preverts touching little girls’ bottoms in the KH or elsewhere — Check ur local/state/provincial/federal laws. In many places now, merely TOUCHING someone without that person’s consent can lead to a basic ASSAULT charge. If that 60-year-old monkey has been warned, a case could b made against him, especially if several families r involved. Even without several witnesses, with iPhones, etc, it’s very easy to discreetly record these things. Not sure how much weight such recordings carry in court, but 4 anyone who’s serious about nailing pervs, I would say it’s certainly worth a shot.
    Just sayin’.
    As Big B stated, what if the Perv changes cong’s to follow those families around, & again, & again? How far can u run? Someone once (wisely) said: “Don’t let anyone start pushing you. Once they start, it gets harder & harder to stop them.”

  35. twistedsister69 says:

    When the Sun Comes Up in Africa

    When the sun comes up in Africa
    Every gazelle knows it’s got to outrun the fastest lion or it will be eaten
    When the sun comes up in Africa
    Every lion knows it’s got to outrun the slowest gazelle or it will starve
    The point is
    When the sun comes up in Africa
    You’d better be running

  36. Ricardo says:

    @Big B, Ted and M Saurus,
    What do you guys want me to say: “Yes, you’re right. You’ve fixed me. I guess it is best to be just like you guys, see sense and throw the towel in. I’m getting out of this cesspit”?

    As you say, if it walks like a duck, etc, etc. How about, if he talks like a Christian, if he acts like a Christian, if he believes like a Christian, then he must be a Christian? How about, if he says he loves Jehovah, and he acts like he loves Jehovah, and he believes he loves Jehovah….

    So, let’s see. Jesus said we should love God and love our neighbour. I am trying to do that. (tick)
    Jesus said we must tell others about the kingdom. I am doing that. (tick)
    Jesus worshipped in an organization that was corrupt. So do I. (tick)
    Jesus got up to read in the middle of the congregation. So do I, with my comments. (tick)
    Jesus asked his religious leaders difficult questions. So do I. (tick)
    Jesus sang songs, no doubt joining in the ones at the synagogue. So do I. (tick)
    Jesus attended the yearly assemblies at the temple. I also attend yearly assemblies. (tick)

    So what you guys are criticizing me for, really, is being a follower of Christ, or at least being like Jesus. He worshipped in an apostate organization for 30 years. Did Jehovah count him as guilty as the Pharisees? Not at all. He became a leader when he was 30 (not a Pharisee leader), but before that he was just a follower.

    Anybody who was not a Jew who saw Jesus setting up Christian worship would associate him with the corrupt Jewish religion. But the Jews, especially the leaders, did not accept his way of doing things.

    Any non-witness seeing me at the meetings and out preaching may associate me with the corrupt Witness religion. But the witnesses, especially the elders, cannot accept my way of doing things.

    I am quite pleased to be viewed as a Christian. I am glad to be viewed as a lover of Jehovah. I simply don’t care if I am viewed as a JW or not.

    As I have told you guys before: Thanks for your concern and your advice. But just because you guys have responded in a certain way doesn’t mean we all must respond in the same way. We are all different individuals, different circumstances, different backgrounds, different characters. Do I start criticizing your decisions? No, but I certainly value your advice. You give me things to think about, and I appreciate hearing your experiences and viewpoints. But give me the dignity of working this out my own way before you start to tar and feather me.

    As I have mentioned to you guys, I have a nice group of brothers (heretics) which I enjoy the company of. We support one another, and month by month our number grows bigger as other victims join with us. All of us are aware of the nonsense going on in the org. We are getting others aware of what is going on. The elders have just excommunicated one of us. Maybe the elders will try to get us all. But those who get cut off are still part of our group. I do not plan to become a leader and take the group out of the cesspit. I am not Jesus. But let’s see what Jesus has planned. Maybe he will set up an organization of God, somehow. Who knows?

    Personally I believe WT will go bankrupt and fade off the scene. I would prefer to see this abusive org get its just deserts. Whether it goes down or not, I will still be a Christian, and I will still love Jehovah. I may or may not still be a witness.

    • Big B says:

      Ricardo (or whatever your name truly is) What you are is a “sheeple” and a Judge Rutherford cult follower not a Christian. I will not ‘tar and feather you but as you are a practicing Jehovah’s Witness I certainly won’t be corresponding with you further wasting my pearls of experience and wisdom on a cult following, Babylon the Great joining, pedophile protecting individual who by supporting this cult are far from being Christian. You and your pals parrot the organization to the letter and are apostate wanna be’s. A Charlie Brown wishy-washy won’t stand for what’s right because that takes too much bravery. I have given you an “out” namely: your family is still in and you don’t want to be shunned or you don’t want to lose any financial gain ($) in the form of inheritance. That’s the only excuses I can except, that’s right I CAN EXCEPT.

      Most everyone here has left or been asked to leave the organization (cult) not necessarily disfellowshipped for wrong doing but because of taking a stand for what’s right. You won’t or can’t even knowing that this corrupt cess-pool is not getting any better but worse in its paranoid, pedophile protecting, behavior. So there you have it: GUILT BY ASSOCIATION. You STAY you APPROVE, its that simple.

      My final advice to you is to go back where you belong and stay off apostate web sites. Just like your brother told you; “go back to your seat, be a ‘good little sheeple’ and shut the hell up”. You are a full blown dyed in the wool cowardly Jehovah’s Witness but a Christian? Do you think Jesus or the God that you supposedly worship approves of this cult? Not by a long shot and not just my opinion but others as well.

      Now, as this is my final correspondence with you; as to the questions you have asked and advice you have received, you really have no intention of following, so find some other way to occupy yourself and don’t waste our time with your stupid, fake, Christian cult nonsense, please. Life is to short to waste time on such nonsense but you’ll find this out the hard way.

      Latter gator.

      • Ricardo says:

        Good Lord! I am being shunned by Big B! You know your life has just hit a new low when even the apostates are shunning you.

        • M Saurus says:

          I don’t think he’s shunning you, dear. Just deciding not to spend any more time on your ridiculousness. Big difference.

    • messenger says:

      @Ricardo

      Christ’s church is comprised of individual Christians. Christ died and gave them many freedoms, including the freedom to go and speak to people in places that do not have God’s approval, just as he did. And he gave them the freedom not to be controlled by the beliefs of others, including those on this site. He stated that because that is a freedom given by God that Christ wants us to acknowledge and live by.

      Many of the commenters here keep holding to WT teachings even though they believe WT is a cult. For instance, one commenter is very upset about WT’s past attachment to the United Nation, even though the words United Nations are not stated in scripture, and as far as I know only WT and JWs link it to the beast in Revelation.

      After Christ left his Apostles wrote that God had given up on the Jewish church, and yet apostles entered into Jewish synagogues to teach. A synagogue was something similar to a Kingdom Hall. One occurrence of this is found at Acts 14:1 “And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake…” KJ

      In most places where group companionship occurs a culture of beliefs arise to sway the thinking of individuals inside that group. That contradicts the freedom Christ gave us, that we can think for ourselves. We don’t have to be controlled by group think anymore, even though our actions will probably be met with resistance by others inside the group.

      • Ricardo says:

        @Messenger, I thank you for all your wisdom. I have learnt so much from what you say. Your way of presenting things and your courage to speak up are things I very much admire.

      • M Saurus says:

        Messenger, the outrage about the UN thing is not that I think the UN is bad or belonging to it is bad. It’s that the WT org TELLS it’s zombie followers that it is bad and to stay away from it, it’s the enemy of God’s kingdom, blah blah blah…then has the nerve to secretly belong to it. It’s their hypocrisy in not following their own rules, or only following them when it’s in their best interests.

  37. Ted says:

    Ricardo, how about reporting the child groper to
    the police ! It’s your moral duty. You cite the 2
    great commandments, to love God and neighbour.

    have you not heard of the “Sin of Silence” which
    makes the observer as guilty as the wrong doer
    if they do not testify to the wrong and expose the
    perpetrator Leviticus 5:1. Those are the words of
    Jehovah, the god you claim to love. (tick)

    How can you witness the actions of this deviant
    man who is clearly a danger to all children, and not
    expose him to the law? Are not these children also
    your neighbours whom you claim to love? (tick)

    It’s futile to compare your association with WT
    to that of Jesus and the corrupt religion of his time,
    He was not afraid of what they would do to him, but
    you are! You may not admit it but you are being
    controlled, which prevents you being a genuine
    Christian.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Ted, I think the WT organization feels that the most important thing to be emphasized is submission. Not love, but submission. Elders don’t care how much they hurt feelings or say unchristian things as long as their target is to get the wayward person to submit to their authority. In this I can see a direct comparison to the Pharisees.

      Like Jesus said, “Do what they say, not what they do.” Almost all of my baptized life I have fought against these overbearing shepherds trying to fit me into a shape they can deal with. Until now these silly turkeys have not understood that they are trying the impossible.

      What I have realized only recently is that they have been trying to shape me into a better Witness, which I am not interested in, and I have been trying to shape them into better Christians, which they are not interested in.

      What are you trying to shape me into, Ted? A better Christian? Or a better apostate?

      Do you think you will succeed?

      • M Saurus says:

        Ricardo – how about just breaking free from these idiots, if you have the courage, and not worrying about changing them. Move on with your life and forget these people. Why won’t/can’t you do that?

  38. M Saurus says:

    Ricardo. You attend meetings, make comments, go out in field service, sing songs, and otherwise identify yourself with this organization.

    Here are some of your comments on this thread concerning your chosen religion:

    “…the corruption we can see in the org which is scaring out decent truth loving people;” – are you not one of the decent truth loving people? You aren’t scared enough to get out?

    “But then again, our guys are fools, most of them.” and “It seems like our leadership are complete and utter dummies.” – really?

    “Unfortunately those leaving are usually the decent people who can no longer cope with the hypocrisy and who care about the victims.” – are you not decent? are you coping with the hypocrisy? You’re staying in…. so….

    • Ricardo says:

      @M Saurus, I can understand your concern. As well as the negatives mentioned, there are the positives that at the Kingdom Hall I get to filter out the nonsense and can gain some knowledge of scriptures about being a Christian and how to deepen our love for Jehovah.

      I realize it takes some skill to separate the information into what applies for a witness and what applies for a Christian. But I have benefitted from this. What really annoys the elders and others is that I openly criticize procedures and teachings which have deviated from Scripture. They feel that lack of loyalty to the organization means lack of loyalty to Jehovah, which is not the case at all.

      And what makes you guys upset is that I still gain some benefit from the meetings of this organization which has strong similarities to the Pharisees corrupt worship. My loyalty to Jehovah is seen by you guys as loyalty to the corrupt organization, which is not the case at all.

      Like I said, I will deal with this conundrum in my own way. If it does not meet your approval, you can agree to disagree. But to copy the organization you hate and start shunning people? That is bizarre.

      • M Saurus says:

        Sounds like you just want to antagonize them from within to get whatever jollies that gives you. You’re just daring them to df you, it’s like you want them to. Then your decision is made, it’s on them. Cowardly. And no one seems to be shunning you. Yet. Also sounds like you can’t wait to be shunned.

        Why the need to associate yourself with the WT org? Can’t you just have your love for Jehovah and your knowledge etc. on your own? Some people just need to belong to an org…even if it’s a nasty, corrupt one. Go figure.

  39. messenger says:

    Ted

    The scriptures state that growing from youth to adulthood Jesus continued to grow in favor with God and men. Since he was involved with his church throughout his life he probably didn’t speak against it until after he was baptized, because he continued in favor with men. Since the scriptures say Jesus had God’s favor, when it does not appear he spoke against his church, then why can’t Christians follow that example today, while also retaining God’s favor? If Jesus’ church was apostate after he was baptized it was apostate before. It didn’t turn that way in one, two, or three years.

    You suggest that Ricardo follow your advice in making a spiritual decision. Why should he, you claim that you are not even a Christian? According to Bible scriptures are Christians advised to follow non-Christians’ advice about how they should serve God or Christ? You were once a Christian, so no doubt you remember the answer to that last question.

  40. messenger says:

    @Caroline

    Since you are an expert can you please tell us where it says “these are the actual 10 commandments” in scriptures at Exodus chp 34? Or either please copy and paste some other experts’ claims from the internet that agree that the actual 10 Commandments are those same ones you listed from Exodus chp34 and not words taken from chapter 20 of Exodus.

    I understand the title 10 Commandments is used to represent scriptures in Exodus chp 20 and Duet chp 5. Are there any experts aside from yourself that deny that claim and agree with you that the Christian world has not named scriptures from Exodus chp 20 the 10 Commandments, but it has instead named scriptures from Exodus chp 34 the 10 Commandments? Do you have any backers to your claim, or is that just your interpretation of scripture? But remember that designation is not made in scripture but is merely a title attached to some scriptures after those were written. Again, does anyone else support your claim that Christianity accepts your designated scriptures in Exodus 34 as the 10 Commandments and that it is a mistake to cite the scriptures in chapter 20 as such?

    • messenger says:

      Actually the designation 10 commandments is made in scripture, at Exodus 34:28. And yet those scriptures commonly accepted as the 10 come from chp 20. It is believed the scriptures you quoted were additional commandments, not the 10, given to Moses. I haven’t seen that anyone agrees with your claim that chp 20 does not include the ten.

      • Caroline says:

        Yes, messenger, now you know that the King James says ten commandments at Exodus chapter 34:28. Now you know something that even Watchtower is ignorant of and all the Witness slaves are also ignorant of, including all the elders because Watchtower is afraid to make waves and tell the truth about the “real” ten commandments.

        Either Watchtower knows what the Bible “really” says and are lying about it or they are ignorant of what the Bible “really” says. Either way, it’s a way out for you to bring it to the elder’s attention in your congregation. Anybody or any organization that claims to be God’s only organization that He is using, should know what the Bible “really” says about the ten commandments, don’t you think?

        If you or any elder or anybody else in the congregation draws that one little fact to their attention, they will be asked what web site you or they were looking at, implying they were looking at apostate web sites. I would not let them get away with that. I’d make the issue the spreading of ignorance the issue.

        Be smart. Get out before they kick you out for being smarter than they are.

        • outandabout says:

          Hi, Caroline…… Ricardo, messenger, etc, can only do what they feel is right for them at any given time. I fully understand the view of yourself and others but given that the focus of this site is to expose the WT, I feel these people staying in are helping to do that. If they were to leave, nobody inside would listen to them anymore. These people staying inside the KH like this may not give us much satisfaction, but it allows the WT to be nibbled at from the inside as well as the out and there will be thousands of others like them.

          Young people are waking up, Caroline. I watched a music video from Pakistan where among the lyrics was – “they want to return us to the Stone Age” and finished with the singer holding up a placard reading – ‘if you want to put a bullet in my head, Like this video’.

          Patience, is the word. Difficult, I know, but the internet is ushering in a new age of enlightenment which, just like the last, will be resisted by the Churches only this time, with the exception of Islam, they can’t torture, imprison or kill…..which was all done in a very ‘moral’ way, of course. But, as usual, religion will be about 200yrs behind the real truth and will eventually be forced to alter their hideous fantasy to suit the new age or die and it will be ‘goodbye Jehovah, give my regards to Zeus’.

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