BBC radio program highlights Watchtower child abuse failings

On April 26 of 2017, Investigative Journalist Trey Bundy and Reveal media, in partnership with the law firm UK law firm Bolt Burdon Kemp, organised a landmark conference in London entitled: Bringing Abuse to Light: A convening to address the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ child safety crisis. 

Bundy and Reveal had long been investigating the worldwide scandal surrounding the Watchtower organisation’s handling of child abuse, with multiple articles and podcasts devoted to the subject. However, they felt the issue was so severe, and Watchtower’s apparent intransigence to change was so troubling, that things needed to step up a gear.

Thus, the Reveal conference was organised.

The goal was to gather relevant experts, activists and abuse survivors, as well as members of the media, all together in one place so that information could be shared and strategies formulated as to how best to progress this issue, and also to alert other news organisations as to the depth and scale of the problem. JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans was one of those who attended, and he recounted his experiences in a recent JW Survey article which you can read here. 

This bold strategy pursued by Bundy and Reveal has paid off in a number of ways. From lots of networking and useful behind the scenes collaboration, to increased public exposure. Indeed Watchtower’s ongoing worldwide child abuse scandal has once again featured in the media, and one of the Reveal conferences attendees is helming the show;

David Cook, an investigative reporter for the BBC.

Cook has brought the issue to BBC Worldwide’s radio series Heart and Soul, in an episode entitled “Witness Protection.” The episode not only focuses on the specific issue of child abuse, but also reaches further into other troubling aspects of Watchtower’s doctrine and the culture of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Shunning, the insular nature of the religion, and the efforts being made to create support groups for those leaving the faith are all discussed in this excellent program.

You can listen to the program here.

It’s clear to see that Cook has clearly done his research. For example, he notes that the Governing Body describe themselves as “Guardians of Doctrine.” That phrase, to my knowledge, appears in no Watchtower literature and was used only once by Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson during his appearance before the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual abuse. Thus, it’s clear that Cook has a good familiarity with what happened at the ARC, as well as in the many other investigations into the religion.

You will also see that many of the experts and abuse survivors interviewed for Cook’s report were also attendees at the Reveal conference. Legal experts like Kathleen Hallisey and Irwin Zalkin, and abuse survivors like Nick French, Candice Conti and Karen Morgan are all featured in the program.

I’d highly recommend listening to the program, and it’s heartening to see that good investigative journalism is still alive and well, with the likes of Trey Bundy and David Cook fighting to bring public attention to Watchtower’s ongoing disgraceful handling of child abuse.

 

 

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277 Responses to BBC radio program highlights Watchtower child abuse failings

  1. Ted says:

    “We Abhor Child Abuse”. Of course they do! But for what
    reason? Is it genuine sorrow and revulsion for the damage
    suffered by the children? NO, —

    A half hearted apology to the victims had to be prised out
    of G,Jackson at the Aussie Royal Commission. And a letter
    to elders on the subject , claimed we were living in a greedy
    and litigious age, which to me was a direct slur on the
    motives of some of the sufferers.

    The wording of that letter betrays the fundamental reason
    for their abhorrence of Paedophillia and child abuse in their
    isolationist organisation.

    • HolyConnoli says:

      As a former long time Elder when we were determining true “repentance” and some were crying and apologizing we would always ask is this person having tears of sorrow for getting caught or tears of repentance? Same with the Watchtower themselves is it genuine Sorrow for what they have done or Just sorry for the bad publication and getting caught or the damage they have done? The WT does not care for the people who have been harmed. They are only trying to protect themselves and their corporation. One thing the WT cannot deal with is BAD PUBLICITY from the news media bc they portray themselves as “Pure and Clean” but they are not. When I was an Elder I presided over theft, Adulteries, Fornicators, Murderers, attempted child molestations, insurance fraud,physical abuse, Spousal abuse, Drunkeness, drug abuse and every other situation that the “WORLD” experiences, and this was not just a rare item.

      • Big B says:

        @ HolyConnoli;

        Firstly, great article Covert Fade. I will have to listen to the entire program latter on today.

        “When I was an Elder I presided over theft, Adulteries, Fornicators, Murderers, attempted child molestation, insurance fraud,physical abuse, Spousal abuse, Drunkenness, drug abuse and every other situation that the “WORLD” experiences, and this was not just a rare item”.

        Yep, sounds like you had the full gamut of sinful and illegal behavior foisted on you as an elder. My Dad was the ‘presiding overseer’ for many years before he died conducting the book study in July, 2000.

        What I could not understand, when I was associated, is why the organization bothers to re-admit these gross miscreants back into the congregation without so much as warning the congregation of these perpetrators and their vile acts. In other words once out always out.

        If repentance is so important then let these perpetrators get absolution from God but in the meantime keep them OUT of the congregation, period. Especially since most of these near-do-wells have the propensity for a repeat performance. I personally know of one particular ‘brother’ that has been disfellowshipped three (3) times and reinstated three (3) times. When does enough become enough, already?

        This is one of the many reasons I left the organization; they readmit gross sinners and by doing so they cannot possibly stop the abuses that go on inside the congregation. They are just setting up the scenario once more for more victimization within the congregation.

        However, if the WTBTS permanently removed these miscreants from any chance of reinstatement then they wouldn’t have many people (read: ‘sheeeple’) left to fleece, would they? Just my two cents worth.

      • Art Fern says:

        I used to go through the mental gymnastics of determining if a person was sorry for hurting another in some way or sorry they can no longer deny their involvement and are sorry to have been caught.
        In the end, it really doesn’t matter,, at some point there will be a heavenly judgement for everyone. Despite the WT claims, everyone will be redeemed/resurrected

        “For as in Adam all die, evenso in Christ shall all be made alive” 1st Corr 15
        As far as “you’re dead there isn’t a soul or spirit that goes anywhere” Christ visited the souls of those lost in the flood, when he left the earth.
        “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
        ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬
        “Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
        ‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬ (contradiction with Ecc 9)

        If the person denies being involved despite a mountain of evidence, we can’t act period but to protect others from being harmed. If the person is truly sorry for hurting another the act of being faced with their action will bring a positive change. If they are sorry they got caught they aren’t prepared to make a change and no one can force them, it’s in God’s hands. As far as the “clean congregation” baloney, scriptures in Romans point out “we have all sinned and fallen short” Isn’t the best place for someone repenting with the body being encouraged and fellowshipped? Someone once told me “A church isn’t a museum honoring the saints, but a hospital for sinners”.

    • outandabout says:

      Yes, Ted, the GB ‘abhor’ whats happening to THEM because of their child abuse. Snakes! If none of this abuse had ever come to light, they would still be leaving it in Jehovah’s hands and the abuse within the pedophile paradise would probably be climbing. Pedophiles do network and they go where the action is.

      • Shibboleth says:

        @outandabout
        Right you are! Just like being an NGO member of the UN for almost 10 yrs…once the cat was out of the bag with the article in The Guardian, within days they withdrew! They got caught with their hand in the cookie jar!! Seems as if this is their mode of operandum. Hope it goes away and if a stink happens then back pedal like $&?¥ to cover it up as neatly as possible and silence the dissenters…same old, same old.

  2. Scummydross says:

    I had remembered seeing a few comments about the phrase “Guardians Of Doctine” being said from Geoffrey Jackson during his testimony at the ARC. Some had noticed the letters GOD from the phrase. I had recently went back and heard it and I thought he actually said “Guardians of OUR Doctrine” which I guess doesn’t matter too much in the long run but windwring if anyone caught what he actually said then.

    • Ann O'Maly says:

      The transcript records Jackson’s words as these:

      “But the
      36 qualifications of a member for the Governing Body ‐ it
      37 involves someone who is considered an anointed Witness, who
      38 has worked in scriptural, with a scriptural background,
      39 either as a missionary or a full‐time servant for many
      40 years, and is able to fulfil the role of the Governing
      41 Body, which is, may I state, a group, a spiritual group of
      42 men who are the guardians of our doctrine, and as guardians
      43 of the doctrine, look at things that need to be decided
      44 based on our doctrines, which are based on the constitution
      45 of the Bible.”

      – p. 15933, Transcript-(Day 8, 14.8.15)

      “What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our
      46 brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility
      47 to guard or to be guardians of doctrine.”

      – p. 15936

      “Ultimately, as guardians of our doctrine and beliefs,
      25 yes, some central group needs to make that decision, but
      26 that doesn’t mean to say that we are just on our own
      27 unilaterally making those decisions without research and
      28 input from others.”

      – p. 15940

  3. Ruthlee says:

    no where to run nowhere to hide.

  4. Whip It says:

    We are just seeing Cardinal Pell being returned to Australia to face historic abuse claims, & it would appear the Catholic Church have thrown him under a bus, great news for the victims & always good to see Justice, i have faith that the work of the ARC in Australia will continue to expose & bring to Justice the BORG, but alas i believe they will throw Elders under the bus so as to hide from the Fallout, Maybe in the USA the GB will have to face the light for their Crimes, thats all it is Crime against innocent victims, good news is being proclaimed world wide for sure.

  5. JBob says:

    So, what is expected to happen? What’s the ultimate goal? Get Watchtower to reform it’s policies surrounding molested children and rape victims? Or, use this to highlight the house built on sands?

  6. outandabout says:

    Both, I hope, JBob. But alas, the sheep will deny, deny, deny. Nobody wants to be wrong and we can all understand that, but let’s face it, if Scientology can rake in enough loot to give their elite a rock star lifestyle using about 60,000 suckers, the WT can stand to lose a few million and find ‘new light’ to suck the remaining die-hard idiot’s dry and the if the GB are too dumb to know that, you can guarantee their band of morally bankrupt lawyers will.. As long as they can stay of of jail, that is.

  7. outandabout says:

    It must be remembered that child sexual abuse within the Jehovah Witness community is eighteen times worse on a head to head basis than the Catholic Church is. Focus needs to be given to this, given that the Vatican is receiving worldwide attention but it seems not enough people give a hoot. Hopefully, a corner has been turned, not only for the victims of child abuse but also for all the needless blood deaths and the breaking up too many families. This cult gives comfort to a lot of people but the cost to the innocent is far too high and totally unacceptable.

    • Markie says:

      Could you please provide proof of your statistic 18 times worse on a head to head basis. Thanks

      • Caroline says:

        Markie, this would be going by the results of the Australian Royal Commission’s results of 1,006 pedophiles not reported to the police from 1950 to today and there are 8 million JW’s but probably 800 million Catholics (could be more) and so take 1,006 times 100 and you would come up with over 100,000 pedophiles reported if you compare the numbers.

        Can you imagine if the Catholic Church had over 100,000 pedophiles not reported to the authorities in the last 65 years? That would be how many in comparison so yes, I can certainly believe that 18 times worse in the Watchtower than the Catholic Church would be the correct statistic and remember we are only speaking about the country of Australia.

        What about the rest of the world? Why not take the number of 23,000 files on pedophiles that Watchtower refuses to release to the authorities? Now take the number of 23,000 and times that by 100 and you come up with 2,300,000 pedophiles!!! How much attention do you think the Catholic Church would get if it was found out that the Catholic Church was covering up over 2 million pedophile priests? Do you think that would garner attention?

        The only reason Watchtower doesn’t get that kind of attention is because Watchtower gets under the radar because it’s so much smaller in numbers than the Catholic Church.

      • messenger says:

        @Markie

        Markie that number from outandabout might be an assumption based on information turned over to the Australian Royal Commission On Sexual Child Abuse. That’s my guess, but I didn’t analyze outandabout’s numbers to see if that’s where he got those from.

        However, below one of Ted’s comments, that is down below this one, I computed the number of potential worldwide JW pedophiles in NY Bethel’s data base, and also the number of individual files NY Bethel might have on pedophile incidents. My numbers are assuming all WT territories reported a similar ratio of pedophile occurrences over their publisher counts as Australia did.

  8. messenger says:

    Thanks Covert Fade,

    I’m still seeing current programs on TV that have fictional stories centering around a Catholic priest as a pedophile. As this problem with JWs is continuing to receive attention we may one day see them join Catholics on the tube.

  9. Imgonaburn says:

    There was a sister in my former cong who, along with her JW ex husband, were found guilty of sexually abusing their own children. He was sent to prison for 15 years for raping his own daughter. He claimed it was his way of demonstrating how men ‘in the world’ would treat her if she wasn’t careful. His wife (the sister who had remarried to a bro in my former cong) was sentenced to 10 years in prison for aiding and abetting the rape and for participating in the sexual assault of her own children. She pleaded not guilty but was found guilty at Crown Court. She was never disfellowshipped and a rota was made for other bros/sis to provide transportation for her current husband to visit her in jail!! It caused a great deal of ‘murmuring’ within the congregation at the time.
    One of the elders dealing with her judicial was so disturbed by it he ‘came off’ being an elder (resigned) though he continues to be a jw.
    I understand elders have to deal with cases that must be very distressing to hear about and stressful to handle. What I don’t understand is why a man would resign from being an elder but still continue to attend meetings. If someone can deny any involvement in the sexual abuse of a child and by so doing avoid being disfellowshipped then there’s something wrong with the judicial system of wtbts. This was a case of historical sexual abuse so the victims that made the accusation were adults when the case came to light. There were 3 adult children testifying to the abuse. How many witnesses do they need to verify that it actually happened? Words fail me!

    • Ricardo says:

      @Imgonaburn, if you bring this matter up with any witnesses, be sure that they will label you as negative, critical, a stirrer, and fighting other people’s battles. They may say that you have the right motive but are going about it the wrong way by criticising the leadership of the org; that you are just like the guy who stuck his hand up to stop the ark of the conenant falling off the wagon but got struck dead by the almighty.

      I recently brought something about sexual abuse up to an elder and his wife while visiting them and I got called all the above. Then the elder’s wife said that she was kind to me for the sake of my father, that although he has passed away he was very kind to her family. Therefore she wants to be able to tell him in the resurrection that she tried to help me. (Does this sound like the Pharisee who is praying and thanking God that he is not a sinner like the useless guy next to him?)

      The elder futher told me that the child abuse cases are not examples of injustice within the congregation because it is not the org’s fault that elders don’t follow directions of the GB (there are so many possible replies to this dumb statement). But I kept quiet and respectful after this because when people are as indoctrinated as this, it is not possible to reach them.

      I didn’t actually visit them to stir them up. I was having trouble understanding why anyone would be stumbled by seeing tight pants being worn in the Kingdom Hall (June 2017 study magazine page 31 par 16). Why would tight pants stumble someone but injustices in the congregation wouldn’t (April 2017 study magazine page 19 par 5)? I thought it was a sensible logical question which I didn’t bring up to stir up anything, but because I genuinely can’t understand it. The injustice in the cong I mentioned was being molested by an elder who then covered over the sin. How is wearing tight pants worse than that?

      But the answer I got was to basically be told I won’t be in the new system if I continue having an attitude like this. Which begs the question, Where do we go when we have things we don’t understand?

      Why, to jwsurvey, of course.

      • Big B says:

        @ Ricardo;

        Here is the answer to your question pointedly with a question.
        “Why spend money on what is not bread,
        and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
        and you will delight in the richest of fare.” Isa. 55:2 (NIV)

        As with an errant child who asks a parent ‘WHY?’ The retort is usually this, ‘BECAUSE I SAID SO, THAT’S WHY!” This usually stops the questioning and further negations. Which is what the elders have done to you, “Because the Faithful and Discreet Slave (Governing Body, Watchtower any of the aforementioned are interchangeable) say so; now go back to your seat, sit down and shut the hell up”.

        This is what you can expect from a cult, Ricardo. This is why so many leave and turn their backs on this religion which is based on suppositions and unscriptural doctrines from its foundation until today. The TRUTH is a lie; an Adventist/ Millerite “great disappointment” throwback and no one alive today will see Armageddon or a dancing panda ‘paradise earth’ which doctrine cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. It’s not a true hope or a promise from God.

        Paul was most clear on this at Galatians 1:7-9
        7 which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you embraced, let him under a divine curse!…

        Berean Study Bible

        Two choices face you Ricardo;
        1) Stay at the hall, except the illogical nonsense and shut up or “I (you) won’t be in the new system if I continue having an attitude like this. (More cult deception and control) or
        2) run with your son to the nearest EXIT and get out of this Babylon the Great, Adventist/Millerite throwback before you suffer its fate.

        The choice is yours, my friend. Good Luck with your fade but if you do leave do so quickly, the Elders maybe setting you up for another star-chamber apostasy trial.

        Big B

        • Ricardo says:

          @Big B, Thanks for your advice. You seem to have had quite a bit of experience with ‘the truth’. I’m sorry, I didn’t look back at previous posts to check your background, but just by the way you write I can tell you talk with authority.

          Before I go further, I would like to ask you if you have ever known anyone to be stumbled by someone’s dress or grooming at the Kingdom Hall? And what do you think ‘stumble’ means?

          I really don’t understand why anyone would be stumbled by tight pants. I am genuine.

          On with my reply: I remember when Jesus was 12 years old he went to the temple and talked with the pharisees who received him kindly and answered his questions. I am sure that Jesus must have had curly questions for them, but they were gracious in the way they treated him. Isn’t it amazing compared to my religious leaders who don’t want to answer questions and instead condemn the questioner?

          I’ve been reading ‘1984’ by George Orwell to my son as a bedtime novel (censoring certain parts) and I came upon the definition of doublethink: ‘To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully-constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them both to be contradictory and believing in both of them;…to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again; and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself.’

          So it is with the WT org. To know what happened with 1975 but to forget it when needed; to know the GB is fallible but to believe totally what they say on pain of being disfellowshipped; to love our neighbour but wishing Armageddon to come now and therefore their destruction immediately, for our own salvation; to say we are one big happy family while ignoring those witnesses we don’t like; to talk of the millions flocking into the org while we are aware that noone from the territory is showing any interest. Our org is full of doublethink.

          So, your advice to me is similar to my brother’s advice: if you want to criticize the org, get out. Otherwise, be quiet. I am sure that is the decision to make.

          Thankfully, very shortly I will be moving countries once again, and the cong I am going to is an apostate paradise. Half the cong don’t believe what is being taught.

          But whatever way it goes, I want to disturb the minds of the zombie elders as much as I can before they kick me out. I don’t want to keep my mouth shut.

          Like Winston in ‘1984’, I am waiting for the bullet in the back of the head.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, your explanation of double think comparing it to Witness think is the most amazing paragraph that I ever remember seeing. Thank you so much for putting it into words!!!

            I wished that I could stand going to the meetings too and find it even the least bit enjoyable but to me, it would be excruciatingly horrible to attend even one more meeting once I found out the truth about the truth.

          • Big B says:

            @ Ricardo:

            My background is this in a nutshell; both parents started to study 1957-1958 with intent of being baptized and did so Mom 1959 Dad 1960. Mom’s Dad originally from Manchester England became interested in the “Truth” around end of WW2 which influenced my Mom and her two sisters. (Her brothers were not inclined towards it, period).

            I was born in Richmond, VA in 1952 (capital of the Confederate States of America 1861-65). Last X-mas celebrated in my parents house was 1960. I watched with fascination as parents removed themselves slowly from association with worldly relatives, friends and former hobbies, sports to devote more time to the ministry (read: Kingdom Interests).

            My younger brother and I along with parents attended the eight (8) day “Divine Will” International Convention at Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds in New York city back in July 27-August 3, 1958. Even then Armageddon was imminent and’ just around the corner’.

            By 1963 Babylon the Great book released identifying who it is and what it does and the beginnings of the 1975 end of 6000 years of mankind’s Biblical Chronology started by Fredrick Franz around the same time period.

            i was baptized at 17 years of age in 1969 in Fairfax, VA. Pioneered my butt off (vacation pioneering 75 hours per month) while attending community college. Latter married in 1972 at 20 years of age. Built a home and had two son’s before wife committed adultery, divorced me and left the Truth with her parents and my sons in 1980. Still have good relations with my sons and their wives and grandson, ex-wife now on her third marriage (I don’t speak with her after our sons reached the age of majority).

            I reestablished myself her in the Tidewater, VA area in 1980 and met my wife now of over 30 years and have another son who will be 24 this year. We all came to the same conclusion “the Truth about the Truth” at exactly the same time and completely faded by assembly of 2013. Especially since the chart in the July study issue of the 2013 Watchtower which shows some sort of Rapture. Over 55 years wasted on a religious cult that still hasn’t gotten its doctrine straight after 100 years in existence, really?

            So there you have it. As soon as we found out about the U.N. involvement, and the pedophile protections etc. We started my FADE immediately. Did not care one iota for others opinions or comments or their stupid shunning. More CULT pressure to conform. “To thy own self be true” says Polonius in Hamlet. Besides, there is NO “Truth” in the TRUTH, period.

            As to this now “Thankfully, very shortly I will be moving countries once again, and the congregation I am going to is an apostate paradise. Half the congregation don’t believe what is being taught”. My question is this: why the hell are they there; don’t they have better things to do than listen to crap? It sounds like an insane house to me. Not how I wish to waste my time and energy doing, that’s for damn sure.

            Latter gator,

            Big B

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, my question is the same as Big B, why do you keep going? Are you still hanging on because you feel it really is the “truth”?

          • Ricardo says:

            @Caroline,
            @Big B,
            The group I am with is a pleasant group to be in, especially when there are other like-minded individuals. We all like to group together, no matter who we are, and to group together talking about how silly many of the teachings are in our organization is similar to posting on this site: having views recognized and confirmed or modified.

            The beauty of the group I am with is that even if a member is disfellowshipped they are still a member of the gang. So the social group isn’t disturbed by the threat of extreme discipline.

            And as a gang we are able to play with the elders’ minds. If we can give them back as much crap as they give us, we will be happy.

            We are just on the start of this journey. It may end with all of us getting disfellowshipped. But from what I can see, it won’t be for long because I can’t see the org continuing for much longer without a major split or major collapse.

            All of us in the group love Jehovah and the Christian teachings. We all don’t like the GB’s teachings or the culture of the organization. But we have only woken up in the past couple of years, and this is the religion we are with, that we thought was the truth, but also the religion we are used to. If the whiteanting happening with the group I am with is happening in other congregations also, how many dissatisfied witnesses are there, and how can the org survive long term?

      • Imgonaburn says:

        Ricardo
        They already view me as ‘negative’ and many now shun me even though I’m not dfd. They’ve taken so much from me I’ve little left to lose.
        They can’t accept that it’s ok to have a different viewpoint than jw.org, they refuse to listen to anything reported in the media. They have a massive persecution complex and consider the actual truth to be nothing more than apostate driven lies.
        All I have to do is the same as those that are rightly accused of child sex abuse- namely just lie through my teeth! If I lie to them and say I believe the jw religion is the only true religion all will be forgiven. I will no longer be shunned by loved ones and peace and harmony will be restored.
        I refuse to lie. I’ve never sexually abused anyone yet I’m treated like the wicked person whilst those that lied and covered up their crimes still have the full support of the cong. It’s totally repulsive!

    • Ricardo says:

      Oh, and you’ll be told to leave it in Jehovah’s hands, he will sort it out.

      • Kay says:

        When I brought up my concerns in front of an elders wife… bro. elder was hiding behind the wall.. she told me that the children don’t matter because God will sort it out in the new system and they will forget. I was raped at 15 years old. Not by a Witness but by a peer from school. I am 50 now and I recall ever detail. I haven’t forgotten and it wasn’t until 10 years ago that I got help… wait until the new system she told me… it will be better then HA.

      • Big B says:

        @ Ricardo;

        What follows is just my thoughts and opinion. If you and your friends stay and attend meetings you show the rest of the congregation that you are in agreement with what is said and taught, period. Like saying ‘Amen’ at the end of a prayer, it shows that you are in agreement with the prayer.

        When you and your pals decide (if ever) to leave the Cult it will impress upon the elders and the congregation as a whole that, as was said in Hamlet, ‘something is rotten in Denmark’. Then the questions will start as well as the rumors….where is Ricardo and company? Why did they leave? What’s going on? etc.

        When you do nothing but talk and no action is performed then that’s all it is….TALK. Unless you are afraid of shunning by family members you and your pals are free to go. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, why do you stay and take the abuse? That’s sad and unnecessary.

        I faded when I found out ‘the truth about the truth’ about the same time that all living relatives were to far gone mentally to change their wills and cut me out. That was my reasoning for staying in the Cult Ricardo, MONEY and PROPERTY bequeathed to me in wills. It certainly wasn’t the fear of others shunning me or being disfellowshipped. Now ALL of my stupid, Bible -thumping, dumb ass relatives are pushing up the daisy’s, none the wiser of my fade as I travel to Las Vegas and elsewhere.

        Now I ask you, who had the last laugh? Was it my Armageddon is a commin’ “door to door in ’74 to be alive in ’75” relatives not enjoying their lives, wasting their time preaching a non-Biblical doomsday message with a dancing panda paradise earth that they did not live to see and weren’t paid a dime to deliver?

        Even if Armageddon was real and came tomorrow I would never run to the apostate (U.N. joining) Kingdom Hall as a refuge! God will strike there FIRST! So my friend, I had the last laugh, and I have laughed my ass off now all the way to the bank for over three years now. So it is my sincere wish that you do the right thing for yourself and your son. Don’t wait for that bullet to the back of the head, Get out before its to late,

        Take care my friend,

        Big B
        Living the Good Life free of Cult Indoctrination

        • Ricardo says:

          @Big B, thanks for your concern and your advice. It is always appreciated. I am not sure what the future holds, but you will probably hear about the journey as I comment on this site in the future. I like this site and Lloyd’s humour and Lloyd’s unconfrontational way of doing things.

          Personally, I would rather be in the org asking the hard questions that annoy the elders than considered a weakling unprincipled ‘loser’ who couldn’t stand the org’s ‘higher principles’. You can imagine the joy the elders would have calling me that. I would rather turn up regularly and annoy the elders by my presence. It’s just who I am. They can try to kick me out, but they have to find a legitimate reason. And while I and the brothers I associate with use this site for input, we can annoy the living daylights out of the elders. My friend who just got disfellowshipped approached the elders about the org joining the UN, and the elders were yelling at him that it isn’t true. A lot of joy can be had with this by a mischievous group of heretics who know that it is true. One by one, at different times, we can mention it to the elders to see their reaction.

          I know that salvation does not depend on our knowing the truth about the truth, but rather our faith in Christ Jesus, but with these wallies running the congregations, a person must try to get some satisfaction playing with the minds of our abusive leaders.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, your story makes no sense to me but then I live in the United States.

            I’d give anything to be able to talk to my former brothers and sisters and be able to tell them the truth about the truth but there isn’t a single soul that I can talk to as they are all convinced that the “truth” really is the truth and anybody who criticizes the Watchtower is in league with the devil.

            It is so odd to me that you have a whole bunch of fellow Witnesses that you can confide in and you each think the Society is not being directed by Jehovah and yet you all get together and talk about it and especially getting together with disfellowshiped ones.

            Here, if a person was seen talking to a disfellowshipped person in public would get you hauled into a committee meeting for not being obedient.

            The reason the Society uses for disfellowshippping is that it’s supposed to bring the person around and talking to them would mean that you didn’t love them enough to make them miss you and the brothers and sisters so much that they’d come back into the truth and save themselves through Armageddon.

            I don’t mean to make you feel bad but with my experience with the Organization and with my congregation and family, I have a hard time believing your story as it is totally against my experience.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Caroline, those in the group I am with may be heretical, but we are not martyrs. We don’t publically mix with disfellowshipped ones (there is one disfellowshipped guy I talk to every time I see him while out shopping, but I’m not worried about being seen because he talks to all the witnesses whether they want to listen or not). We have no desire to be so easily kicked out.

            We don’t give up on our friends. We can meet them in cafes, we can visit their home, even if they are disfellowshipped. I don’t know what is so unbelievable about that. The elders may be nosey, but they are as yet unable to bug our phones and track our cars.

            I mean, we don’t sit with them after the meetings and talk together as the congregation members walk past. We are discreet.

            Most of us don’t believe this is Jehovah’s organization, just an organization which teaches about Jehovah. However, the member who just got kicked out for apostasy did believe this is Jehovah’s organization, but that it had gone astray, and that Jehovah will soon fix it up. Certainly is irony that he’s been kicked out, while others of us are still in.

          • Caroline says:

            So then you feel Ricardo that Jehovah is not directing the Organization but will soon take over and start directing it? So Jehovah is waiting for what? If Jehovah exists, why doesn’t he clean it up? Does that make any sense to you at all to keep going?

            It seems to me that if you are really loyal to Jehovah then you would take a stand and tell the elders that you and your organization do not believe that Jehovah is directing the Organization.

            The first thing the elders asked me when they came to visit me when I stopped going to meetings is if I thought that Jehovah was directing the Organization and I told them no and they promptly gave a marking talk on me and nobody will talk to me anymore except one sister who has a disfellowshipped daughter and talks to her but I can not say one thing to her about how I don’t believe that Jehovah is directing the Org. or she would go off the deep end. The only thing I can say to her is that I don’t believe in the Bible anymore but I can’t even say why.

            I can’t say anything to my one daughter who is a regular pioneer and she’d go off the deep end too. That is my experience so I find your experience so weird compared to my experience.

            Have your group read Crisis of Conscience and see what they say. I would bet they’d all want to leave.

            As long as you continue to attend meetings, you are adding to the illusion to the rest of the congregation that you support the Organization and if Jehovah isn’t really directing the Organization, then it’s just another part of false religion and Revelation says to get out of false religion. Why give the illusion to the rest of the congregation that you are still supporting it.

            I love my congregation to give the impression to them that I am supporting a bunch of liars and deceivers and I could never go in service to support an organization of liars and deceiver and child molester protectors and murders when it comes to blood transfusions.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Caroline, You misunderstand what I have said. The brother who just got disfellowshipped believes that this is Jehovah’s organization and that Jehovah will fix it up in the future. I do not share that understanding. As I commented, I believe WT is an organization that teaches about Jehovah, it is not Jehovah’s organization.

            I don’t believe that Jehovah has a single organization on earth at present.Just what he has, I am not sure. Messenger has the opinion that this will be revealed to Jesus’ true followers in the future. I am wondering if all the Christian religions are somehow involved in a greater project. Like the dragnet, the fish are collected and put into containers (maybe different churches). And like the servants given the talents, these men could symbolize churches using different methods to get converts, all of them increasing in some way the Lord’s valuables. Could it be that there are Christians in other denominations who also look at their religion and think there are things in it which aren’t right, but are trying their best to be Christians?

            Who knows? But the WT belief that millions are going to flood into the org and the preaching work will be done to a reasonable degree worldwide just isn’t working out.

            My CO friend says that if we follow everything the WT says, then it is difficult for us to be Christians; that we need to mentally separate out Christianity from the WT teachings. Messenger says much the same. I have been doing this for the past year, and it is quite clear that WT teachings have created a culture of criticism in the congs. Every witness I know is criticising some other witness, and this process is coming down from the elders. It seems nothing we do is quite good enough, we always need to sacrifice more. Jesus said his yoke was light, but this is not what we find in the WT org.

            As to your suggestion that my org should tell WT org anything, I’m sorry but I don’t have an org. I have a group of misfits and victims whose common thread is that they believe something is wrong in WT and they all need support and a social network. They are not getting this from the elders because the elders are busy shepherding themselves and telling one another how wonderful they are.

            As to what impression I am giving, whether it is one of supporting the org by attending meetings, do you really think that someone who looks like he is sleeping in the meeting, wakes up to give a rather questionable answer and when he gets a chance asks elders and CO’s curly questions which get them angry, would be mistaken as supporting the org?

            And in preaching I am also not supporting the org, but rather doing my Christian duty of directing people to the Bible, not the org.

            My path may be different to yours, Caroline, but does it really need to be the same? I should be able to take my own path, taking into account the circumstances and other people involved. Right?

            Unlike yourself, I respect and love Jehovah, and see great value in the Christian way of life and principles. This in itself will make your paths and mine different.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Caroline, I see there was another question there, about Crisis of Conscience. Yes, I and others in the group have read it. I found it refreshing in confirming that something serious is wrong with WT. We also have Franz’s second book, In Search of Christian Freedom. These books were quite mind opening, and I couldn’t help thinking that maybe just a personal worship of Jehovah, like Franz did, might be the way to go. But then Messenger reminded me that even Jesus was in an apostate group in his day, and his worship was acceptable to God. So I have continued on with the group of heretics.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, I miss wrote when I suggested you had an organization. What I should have said is your group.

            I wished that I could talk to my closest friends that I had in the Org too. I tried with 3 but was shut down immediately and I feel so bad about that but I am sure if I was able to talk to them that they would also have stopped going to meetings with me and we could have still been friends outside of the organization, getting together and doing things together.

            What do you mean that the Organization teaches about Jehovah? They don’t teach anything about Jehovah. All they do is preach about Jehovah and Jesus destroying the earth at Armageddon. As far as Bible principles go, all they do is teach Bible principles from the Greek Scriptures and only from the Hebrew Scriptures when it comes to donating and bad examples like Zezabel and the warning about Armageddon and of course Daniel when they try and come up with 1914 etc.

            Watchtower teaches nothing about Jehovah at all except to say that Jehovah created us and so we owe our lives to Him and have to obey him or die.

            When it comes to learning about Jehovah, go to the Hebrew Scriptures. That is what Jehovah dictated (supposedly) about how he thinks the world should be run. The Hebrew Scriptures even say that Jehovah creates evil and it says that Jehovah was responsible for the bad laws of making the Hebrews sacrifice their children in the fire.

            In Leviticus when it talks about their sacrifices, it says over and over again that they were to sprinkle the blood of their sacrifices on the “horns” of the alter. That smacks of Moloch worship. That is the Jehovah that the Society does not teach and you revere.

            What you actually revere is Christian morals and teachings. If you worship the god of the Hebrew Scriptures, then you should read the Hebrew Scriptures in depth. Start with Joshua and tell me what a loving god Jehovah is.

      • Big B says:

        @ Ricardo:

        In answer to your question earlier concerning ‘ if tight pants have caused the stumbling of anyone’. My guess is no unless they are very immature and spiritually weak. This is Antony Morris III’s, i·dée fixe an obsession that has become his ‘great white whale’ as in Herman Melville’s book “Moby Dick”. Personally its his obsession and he can keep it; after all “Small things amuse small minds.” – Doris Lessing

        Not being able to understand the deeper meanings and true message of the Bible namely the TRUE Gospel message delivered by Paul on The Areopagus the governing Body has focused on a milk toast diet of baby pablum to feed the congregations. Personally, I wouldn’t follow any of those seven dwarfs of so called ‘Biblical knowledge’ through a buffet line.

        Loved your comments on Orwell’s ‘1984’ it is the definitive explanation of the WTBTS in a nutshell.

        “But from what I can see, it won’t be for long because I can’t see the org continuing for much longer without a major split or major collapse”. I concur with you. However, like many religious groups you will always have a group of die-hard fanatics who will NEVER admit to their stupidity and will entrench themselves further into the CULT mindset. This too is a part and parcel of cognitive dissonance. The more they are shown the error of their ways the more they cover their ears and repeat “apostate lies, apostate lies…..LA LA LA can’t hear you LA LA LA.” Eventually with natural die off of the older friends, no growth, and younger people leaving in droves there will truly be no one left to ‘break away’ and the WTBTS will become like the Millerites; a footnote in history. Don’t know if I will be there to see it but the future is not bright for these not so bright, delusional, Bible-thumping morons.

  10. twistedsister69 says:

    Good News. Thanx CF. We ALL need to KEEP UP THE PRESSURE, as we r indeed doing. Spread the word by any means, with discretion of course. The screws r getting TIGHTER & TIGHTER.

  11. messenger says:

    One question. Where’s Ricardo? Maybe the WT took him down. In his last post he claimed one of his close associates was just rejected by WT as an apostate. Ricardo if you’ve changed your online name then blink in one of your comments, so we know WT hasn’t taken you out. Also Winston has disappeared since returning to his meetings.

    Are you guys familiar with Snowden the American whistleblower who exposed how the USA was gathering information from billions of emails, text messages, social sites, and web searches from people in countries all over the world, gathering over 3 billion messages a month just from its own citizens. Winston big brother is watching, and they’re not just WT. The greater the technology the greater the possibility for increased abuse. Save me Jesus! Will a save me Jesus comment elicit a response here like a cross to a vampire, a silver cane to werewolf?

    • Ricardo says:

      @Messenger, sorry man, I took a short break from all the discussions happening on that previous subject. It all became repetitive and stale. But I’m still here. I made a comment above on my latest spiritual adventure.

      Messenger, can I ask you? Why would someone be stumbled by seeing tight pants being worn in the Kingdom Hall (June 2017 study magazine page 31 par 16; although it doesn’t mention tight pants, the pronoun is he so we know what is meant). Why would tight pants stumble someone but injustices in the congregation wouldn’t (April 2017 study magazine page 19 par 5)?

      I just can’t get an answer from my spiritual leaders.

      My friend appealled his disfellowshipment for apostasy, but after his appeal meeting the committee confirmed there would be no change to the decision.

      Sorry, Messenger, I don’t want to change my name. I like it.

      Messenger, don’t you think it must be possible for some hacker to get into the GB database to find out the accounting records to find out why there is so much cost cutting? I read on another site the opinion that the GB had borrowed money and were expecting the new system to come so they wouldn’t need to pay it back. But the new system didn’t come and so a lot of money needed to be paid back. Does it sound possible?

      • messenger says:

        Ricardo

        The borrowed money sounds plausible because WT was financing all the building and remodeling work themselves with loans to congregations from Bethel. Even though interest was charged there’s a point where they could have over extended themselves and leveraged themselves out of money, waiting for that to comeback in the future from the congregations. But possibly it wasn’t coming back fast enough. They could have waited too long to start taking out loans on their properties and their money could have been too tight by that time. It definitely seems they were in a money squeeze last year with all those cut backs. Maybe they borrowed on their Brooklyn properties to finance Halls, and the Brooklyn properties don’t house members who donate. Or maybe the people in poor countries don’t donate enough to cover expenses and pay Bethel back. If so WT probable doesn’t want to say.

        The excuse you heard about expecting the new system to come so WT would not have to pay their loans back I don’t believe for two reasons. First that would be unethical and WT has bad mouthed JWs who did that in the past, secondly because of their egos and their attempts to guard their pretentious image they never want to appear inept. Running out of money could suggests that if they appear to run out due to mismanagement.

        If a hacker hacks WT I hope he gets the pedophile database. That would be a much bigger scandal than bad money management. Some claim the data base lists over 22,000 pedophiles.

        I haven’t been to the Hall in a while. Don’t know if I read the tight pants info. But when people pile crap upon crap then what’s the result? A pile of crap!

  12. Rodger Goode says:

    Ah yes, good old Ricardo where are you mate? I miss those Ricardo / Jado discussions – very entertaining!!

    @Messenger – I saw a YT clip talking about the FBI arriving at an ex-JWs house asking questions as to his comments on the GB so I think your comments are not far from what is happening!
    Be careful folks – never reveal your identity (use Tor!).

    Remember that Non-Profits are the best place to hide money!

    • messenger says:

      About six months ago I pulled up the Koran online because I wanted to see what it said and what all the fuss is about. I read bits of it over a couple week period by pulling it up online and reading it from the computer on those days. Interestingly after doing that for a couple weeks on my computer then under my broadband connectors WI-FI I saw an icon pop up that was labelled FBI Surveillance. It occurred twice, and each time disappeared shortly after I saw it. I had never seen that before this time. So, I stopped reading the Koran and it hasn’t returned.

      I asked my son about it, since I tap into his network, and since the names of other neighbor networks often show up on my computer. But not until reading the Koran did FBI Surveillance show up. My son thought it was some neighbor, but I’m not so sure after seeing a movie on Snowden. The USA was and probably still is collecting billions of electronic communications from us every month.

      • Art Fern says:

        The likelihood that the FBI would announce itself as well as it’s purpose (surveillance) is so remote to be laughable. The NSA with locations on the East Coast as well as a giant facility south of Salt Lake City, has been doing the dirty work, without dropping any bread crumbs. If that were not the case, don’t you think the German, British and Australian governments with their own highly regarded intelligence personal would have known their top leaders were having their conversations and e-mails tapped before Assange? (so?)
        If you saw such a message, somebody is playing a joke or maybe you have a neighbor who is mixing signals with you, if you have a wireless set-up and haven’t securely programmed your network software.

  13. Vox Populi says:

    Great article Covert Fade. I will listen to the programme later. I think it is about time that the WTBTS is brought to book for their cover-up’s and gross failings.

  14. Ernest B. Oglebee says:

    My name is Ernest. People call me Ernie. I’m from Clarksdale, Mississippi. I wish them Jahobers would stop knocking on my door. Them crazy loons are always trying to sell me their magazine.

    Them people need to stop abusing children. In my opinion, Watchtower is a bit ornery.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Ernie, just tell them you don’t want them to call, to put you on the Do Not Call list. Quite simple.

      Better yet, start asking them about child abuse in the org, and about the Australian Royal Commission and they’ll put you on the list themselves.

      Perhaps you can ask them my question: Why would someone be stumbled by seeing tight pants being worn in the Kingdom Hall (June 2017 study magazine page 31 par 16). Why would tight pants stumble someone but injustices in the congregation wouldn’t (April 2017 study magazine page 19 par 5)? Is wearing tight pants worse than child abuse coverups?

      That got them pretty angry with me, and I’m an active member. I doubt you’ll ever see them again if you ask them. I know I don’t expect any visits from them for a long while.

      • Big B says:

        @ Ricardo;

        “I know I don’t expect any visits from them for a long while”. Wanna bet?
        You will soon be cordially invited to a star chamber apostasy trial, namely your own. See my comments above, my friend. You’re playing with and annoying a poisonous snake who is going to bite you. What’s truly sad is this, although your points are definitely right you are fighting a losing battle with a CULT and the Pyrrhic victory that you may win will be at a cost you may not be able to afford.

        I suggest a quick retreat and an equally quick fade before they mark you or shun you or worse. That way you call the shots and dance to your own tune, not theirs. Either way you will be shunned but you leave on your own terms.

        Big B

  15. Sharon Christensen says:

    Smiles and chuckles lotsa a times by comments …as for tite pantz…take it from me…one of the many ;-)) twisted sis’ of sorts….Not Good when grass cuttin or gardening in Bull Dogs season…those big flies that take a chunk each time they land on you and it hurts like heck…all your left with are red lumps and a …lot of Hale Marries to utter from the verbal abuse that came forth from your mouth when they took a holt of your hinney! Kinda like effects of…Jw.orgy….Wonder if Gb will get if not already into…Bit coin…or on Steemit? If there is a way to make a …” bit coin”…;). Sure they sniff it out. Last of my worries as who chks and monitors anything I post…If the Dear Bros got a bone to gnaw with or about me….let them show up at my door…Not likely to happen…they are sorry they got caught with Hanz in pantz, cookie jar, piggy banx etc….will they stop…no…cuz the are GOD! Really? Sad what hold religion has on people and how it has affected people in all parts of the earth….Agafia…Siberia….testimony to a strong older lady. Today me and my family remember July 6th, 1997…. 20 yrs I think it is…Dear Dad died…all alone….why? Because as a good Jw family…we were at the Saskatoon, Sk assembly…yep we went like “GOD “needed us to…and Dad was sick….and died alone! I am so proud to say…I hate the orgy to this day for that…we choose to go, leave him behind…cuz that is what” GOD” wanted.

  16. Sharon Christensen says:

    Gb borrowed money thinking not having to pay back cuz endz commin? Perhaps they like rest of us low lifes imagined it would arrive in ’75? Even Lord Farquar…in Dragonz belly was overheard to be singing…Stayin alive, stayin alive…uh uh uh…stayin aliveeeeah ive ive…etc. 😉

  17. Ted says:

    There’s a couple of prolific commenters here, who
    constantly label the JW org, as false, hypocritical,
    and the elders as incompetent lackeys. All of which
    I whole heartedly agree with.–

    But these same people attend their meetings and
    even represent this pedophile protecting set up
    by turning out with other JWs for the door knocking.

    Talk about dogs returning to their vomit, they know
    what a pile it is, yet they can’t keep away from it.

    • messenger says:

      Kinda like a baby suckin on its mama’s tit. The org is sometimes called mother by some circuit overseers. Throughout the Biblical history of the Jewish church some Biblical characters were aware of corruption but still associated with it. Jesus was one.

      Best wishes Ted

    • Ricardo says:

      @Ted, it’s basically the same with every religion. You look up Mormons, Seventh Day, Christadelphians, they all have people who are dissatisfied who have left and set up web pages complaining about the treatment they experienced. So, if we leave the org, where to go Ted? Better the devil you know. And when you have a group of like minded friends who have also seen behind the curtain of this org, why not enjoy the company of other victims?

      When we go preaching we don’t direct people to the org but to the Bible. We encourage them to be Christians. Any problem with that?

      And something you are forgetting, Ted, is the effect we have on the elders. Every time they see us regularly attend the meeting and join in field service, they want to vomit. So, by continuing regularly, and yet being ‘negative’ and ‘critical’, not only are we playing with the elders’ minds while serving the Almighty, we are making the elders angry. How much they would like to see us gone so they can criticize us to others.

      No need to be like the elders, Ted. Be a Christian, and be happy we are putting faith in Jesus and love him and Jehovah.

      • outandabout says:

        I agree, you guy’s should keep going to the KH for the reasons you stated.

      • Big B says:

        @ Ricardo:

        “they all have people who are dissatisfied who have left and set up web pages complaining about the treatment they experienced. So, if we leave the org, where to go Ted? Better the devil you know”.

        How about out the door, Ricardo. You leave with your pals and associates and march out the Kingdom Hall door for one. Personally, I haven’t met Satan but really there isn’t a devil that you don’t know, just the one and he controls this EVIL SLAVE running this CULT and all other religions, period.

        There is NO where to go Ricardo, because there is NO absolute TRUTH! For proof read Pontius Pilate’s question to Jesus before he had him crucified. Jesus didn’t say one damn thing to Pilate in response. Just dead silence. Why? Because Pontius Pilate knew that the TRUTH is only in the mind of each individual. Pilate’s idea of TRUTH was not Jesus’ idea of TRUTH. Jesus’ idea of truth was to Pilate just a bunch of ‘pie in the sky’, ‘pipe dream’ nonsense. Of all the times to give a witness Jesus sure missed a golden opportunity didn’t he? Oh well tempus fugit, times a wasting, got a cross to catch gotta die on it before sundown. ave atque vale!

        Because this organization teaches servitude to suppositions “paradise earth” which is not mentioned in the Scriptures at all and if Adam and Eve wouldn’t have sinned in the garden then they would have lived forever on a paradise earth with perfect children. Really? This is a supposition as it starts off with “let us suppose”. The Bible states God’s original plan does it? My answer is two words: PROVE IT! You can’t, because we are not privy to God’s ultimate plan, only what supposedly happened is recorded in the scriptures. Anything else, “a paradise earth” is a supposition that only Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. Why? Does Paul mention it on the Aeropagus in Athens? NO, it is because Judge Rutherford said so!

        What’s recorded is Satan (just like with Job) getting over on Jehovah who has no contingency plan, no PLAN B in case of an insurrection in paradise. Rather than destroy Satan right off, lets play this chess game with people as pawns and drag this thing out until I come and bring with me “Armageddon”. Yeah, that’s it, kill everyone that dares exercise their God given ‘free will’ just don’t go against me and do anything contrary to what I teach or supposedly teach. Which is why there are so many religions, sects and cults it makes one dizzy thinking about it. All is VANITY, I beginning to believe its all Judean / Christian mythology. What is mythology? It’s religion no one practices anymore with its own rules, beliefs and sacrifices, etc.

        As there is NO spirit inspired organization, because everyone would notice it and join and even if one existed, which it doesn’t, it sure as hell isn’t this lunatic, Orwellian, distopian, CULT made up of professional snitches, and stool pigeons.

        There, all done. I feel much better. I hope that this was not to offensive as I don’t want to offend anyone but inform.

        Big B

        • Ricardo says:

          @Big B,
          Did you ever comment at the meeting before you faded to try to wake the zombies? Your effort above would have sounded fantastic for the audience. The audience would have fainted onto the floor of the Kingdom Hall. You could have walked out and turned off the lights.

          Like I have said before, we have different experiences and are different individuals. You have reacted to things your way. My reaction does not need to be the same as yours. However, your experiences and opinions are, of course, interesting to hear.

          But for me, I love my Creator and when there are things hard to understand I like to consider good motives for his choices. And as has been mentioned by others and myself, Jesus worshipped in an apostate religion yet God accepted his worship. But Jesus and his disciples didn’t stay silent when they saw wrong things happening in their religion. I want to be like Jesus. I think that is a very noble goal.

          • Big B says:

            @ Ricardo,

            All true Christians should follow Jesus’s example, although it will be almost impossible to do so.
            As for loving the Creator, for me he is foreign and aloof. Anything I have and enjoy l have managed to carve out for myself with my own labor and perseverance. God does not fit into my equation and he will do or not do as he bloody well pleases, if he is interested in mankind at all.

            Yes, everyone does have different reactions, as well as they should.
            I didn’t try to wake the zombies,
            I just faded away. It would have been a waste of time.

          • Caroline says:

            Ricardo, just what do you mean when you say that Jesus and his disciples worshipped an apostate religion and yet God accept his worship. What exactly is that supposed to mean? Are you saying that the Law that Jehovah gave to the Hebrews was apostate? That statement makes absolutely no sense.

            Like what dee2 said, Jesus implied that if the Jews were actually following the Law as they were supposed to do, they’d have been stoning unruly children and stoning girls who couldn’t prove their virginity on their wedding night and they’d have been owning slaves and beating them until they died (if they lived at least 2 days) because those slaves belonged to them as their property. They would have been offering up their first born to Jehovah as burnt sacrifices and offering up burnt animals in the alter at the “horns” of the alter and they would have been burning women prostitutes and on and on.

            Come on. Get real will you?

  18. Average Joe says:

    Chatting with some JWs on a forum this week and what surprises me is their aversion to the ARC. Similar phrases kept cropping up such as “well they only had one agenda and that was to discredit us”, “they were just out to make us look bad”, “they were telling us how to run our organisation” and the like.

    NO! The ARC are not a communist Russian government looking to oppress any religion not of the state. And yes, they DO have just one agenda: that of protecting children from child abuse! The JWs that I’ve spoken too try to make out that Jackson was the one hard done to. Incredible!

    I watched the ARC hearings back in 2015 with an open mind and initially expected it to be a witch hunt. However, it became evident that it was nothing of the sort and that the ARC team were just honest, hard-working people trying to make their country a safer place for kids. The mind boggles as to how other JWs can’t see this!

    • Ricardo says:

      @Joe, when I brought this up with my CO, he said the ARC was a demonic attack on God’s people.

      Like yourself I saw a group of officials who were very genuinely concerned with the welfare of children, and a group of WT men trying to cover things up. I mentioned to the CO that the commissioner was concerned with the welfare of children in our org, and the CO replied by dishing out negative things about the commissioner: the commissioner isn’t interested in justice and welfare, look at his other court cases he’s been involved in…defending criminals; he’s not a friend of the truth, don’t be misled.

      It is sad that mature responsible men who are our spiritual leaders seem little concerned with the welfare of our children in our congregations. But these sanctimonious self-righteous bast#### will reap what they sow as people vote with their feet and leave the org. Unfortunately those leaving are usually the decent people who can no longer cope with the hypocrisy and who care about the victims.

    • messenger says:

      The problem is that those in charge of WT, the elders and above, just have one primary agenda. That is to keep their org looking good. If individuals deviate from that agenda they are gone, which keeps that group working in a unified way to keep that agenda going. By far the majority of JWs are scared to challenge that agenda. So, even the JWs bright enough and knowledgeable enough not to believe some claims of WT elders have no power to change the dirt going down. The WT system makes it too easy to shut them up. We could never imagine a protest going on at WT like the one currently happening outside the G20 meetings in Germany. All involved would be immediately disfellowshipped as apostates. End of that, and the org would go on as usual citing the protests as a demonic attack and a sign of the last days. In a similar way some JWs choose to cite any fault that’s brought against WT by anyone, an attack of Satan and sign of the last days.

      At the ARC WT was not able to stifle its past actions from being probed, because WT heads were not in control. The young Australian lawyer that questioned JWs at the ARC is very smart and very unbiased. Even a honest person of mediocre intelligence could tell that. So, my guess is that the JWs coming up with such comments are, what’s that phrase that other commenter here and I sometimes use, “full of crap,” because they are probably not that stupid to believe the comments they’re writing against the ARC.

      • Ricardo says:

        @Messenger, I also was of the opinion that the lawyer at the ARC was very unbiased. If the one you mean is Angus Stewart, he is actually South African but he did a stirling job.

        My local CO said that he (the CO) attended the ARC in the audience and saw Angus actively discussing things with someone who the CO knew was apostate. “So see,” the CO said, “they are not our friends, and neither are they as unbiased as what they seem.”

        I wanted to suggest that next time I could advise Mr Stewart if the CO approved.

        But actually he did an excellent job and made our guys look like fools. But then again, our guys are fools, most of them.

        • Gwen Little says:

          That CO would have seen Angus talking to Paul Grundy at ARC & that’s because Angus wasn’t getting straight answers from the Elders & Bethelites. They were giving him the WT spin & he knew it. As we all know, there is the WT doctrine then there is what really happens on the inside.

  19. Peter the Digger says:

    “Total lack of support”, from other witneses….yep, been there, experienced that. Not, thankfully, in the context of child abuse but with looking after an early-stage demented relative who had been a witness for over 40 years, regularly went to meetings, on the witness work, assemblies etc, until she got too frail to go. Then they ignore her, not even regular phone calls (except from similarly frail sisters who moan to each other about their situation). Certainly no visits (oh, actually, they did call in – when working the area and wanting a toilet). As for offers to help with shopping, may as well ask the man in the Moon for that. No, that’s all left to family who have jobs in distant parts of the country. Worse, they pretend they actually do phone etc, when you call the elders asking for more help from her, it’s you are the guilty one for elder-bothering. Not sure how that covers the elders’ wives, the ones in their 50s. 60s, 70s’ who are able bodied enought to help the very aged 80s, 90s. I know one sis around 50 who left her JW mum in a ghastly care home for a week whilst she went off somewhere, not sure who’s the more guilty here, the younger sis, or her congregation for not offering the day to day help so the ghastly care home stay could have been avoided.

    Yet one day these 60s, 70s yer old sis, and bros, will be aged 80s, in care homes, or lonely at home themselves, and then they will wonder, why don’t the 50s’ 60s, 70s year olds help me, I’ve been a JW for decades……….

  20. Sharon Christensen says:

    Hmmm…ARC bad mouthing or whtevs Jw.org? Who Did such to the Catholics…run ahead and point finger at other religions and not chk how many point at themselves…..Neglect elderly faithful Wts….they do that to my Mum, she a faithful Wt for many yrs…Winter or summer goes to mntgs almost 40 miles one way…do any ask and see if she made it home after mntg etc…no…and on and on…but yeah if need to count some time in land far far away they will show up once a yr or so…tea and crumpets…wash rm brk…unless gotta go real bad, hseholder home but not answer so whip up skert and…yeah water the daisies…hse holder saw more than tight pantz! :-)). I at least used to mk sure bushes to hide behind! I do not have anything to do with my Mum…she a good Wt….me a good Apostale! Jw.org…have been able to accumulate a …”bit o coin”, from many an older person who passed on…..If you have a stash o cash….the Brothers may be more eager to take pics of your worldy possessions to send to pics to ” GOD”… thereby paying you a viz, whether you know it or not, before you pass! List too long to post….same old same old…always they are sweet and innocent…do gooders in wolfs frockx…I think all sheeple should tighten up their pantz if they do not want to loose more than just their” wool!” Many are still wondering…should we sell and peonear…endz here…better off if sell, just move straight to Slab City…no taxes …no this no that…but can enjoy freedom…ahhh freedom…sooo good. Thanx all …

  21. Stuart (XJDUB) Lefebvre says:

    Jehovah’s Witnesses make a contest out of Christianity. And they certainly impose some very strict requirements on themselves which is why so few Witnesses look outside Watchtower to investigate their own organization’s history. They’re too obsessed with trying to meet all its requirements and in turn feel good about themselves, not be “troubled by their conscience”, prove their “separateness from the world”, secure their personal spot in “paradise”, be featured in an interview or a part in a meeting or convention, be appointed a servant or an elder or an overseer, etc. The list goes on and on as to why a JW will NEVER listen to an apostate but instead keep their eye on Watchtower’s multiple prizes. And for every scripture Watchtower cites to justify their particular brand of Christianity there’s a scripture condemning it. And unsuspecting people are now able to hear those arguments thanks to apostate sites, youtube channels, and facebook groups that didn’t exist during Watchtower’s peak growth years. And now you notice not just the slowing down but decline in several countries. What’s their official explanation going to be for that?

    • outandabout says:

      It seems to me that Jehovah either directed the pedophile to his victim or merely watched and said “I’m going to get you for that”. Suffer the little children.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Stuart, there are various explanations for the slowing down of the WT membership. The growing lack of interest by Millenials in religion; the aging and dying off of members in Western countries who became members during the peak years of the 50’s and 60’s; the corruption we can see in the org which is scaring out decent truth loving people; the lack of any date for the coming of Armageddon for the first time in WT history.

      We won’t hear any of these reasons given by our leadership, however. Instead we will hear how this is the fulfilment of prophecy about the love of the greater number cooling off and so the need to not give up; the end is coming like a thief.

      • Stuart (XJDUB) Lefebvre says:

        That is quite the blanket prophecy, yes Covers, well, just about ANYTHING one disagrees with.

  22. Whip It says:

    Ricardo, high, your CO is a demonic show pony who loves the limelight, i wonder how he felt when he lost the title District overseer, as for tight pants, i am a red blooded male & would love to see sisters in tight pants at the meetings, when i was an elder a sister came up to me, telling me that she though another sister wasn’t wearing a bra, & wanted me to talk to her, sorry no thats not going to happen. as far as the child abuse stuff goes i personally have seen the elders hide information from the police when the hall was searched, i have said it before, as far as still going to meetings, fear of being shunned, my kids, best friends & my wife, so i play the game & hope that as time goes on we will see more question the truth, also i wait in anticipation as to the next round of Lies that will need to be told when the UN doesn’t turn on religion & we no longer see evidence on the king of the north/south stuff, The WT conductor here is so delusional, he said that Armageddon could come tomorrow, wow what about all the other prophecies to be fulfilled, thanks to all for your comments

  23. outandabout says:

    Public perception is that the world is going to hell in a handcart. News channels seldom give us good news because it doesn’t sell as well as bad news, hence we are extremely poorly educated about the real world.

    Here is an example – The number of people living in extreme poverty fell from close to 2 billion in 1990 to 0.7 billion in 2015. On no day in this 25 year period was the headline of any newspaper in the world ” The number of people in extreme poverty fell by 137,000 since yesterday.” This is despite the fact – on average – this would have been an accurate headline EVERY SINGLE DAY for the last 25 years. I’ll guarantee not a single person reading this knew that, and believe me, the list goes on.

    We are mistaken if we believe we can be informed how the world is changing by following the news, Awake magazines and the bible. All three spread negative thoughts like a cancer. They fail to convey what the world is doing slowly and steadily over long stretches of time. Historical data shows the how human societies have over the centuries become, less violent, democratic and with improved living standards allowing us to live happier, healthier and richer lives.

    Historical data shows Armageddon should have been here centuries ago when the world was a miserable horrible place for the general population. NEVER has the world been better than it is right now and yet we have people trying to ram garbage down our throats about how terrible the world is. It could be better, of course, and some idiot Asian with a dickhead haircut could start a nuclear war or the earth could get blind-sided by a lump of rock the size of Texas, but evidence shows almost everything the WT teaches about the state of the world and the garbage they use to scare people into believing, is, in fact, the exact opposite of what they say. The veil has fallen.

    ‘Our World in Data’ – it’s all there.

  24. Doc Obvious says:

    I feel that Watchtower’s legal department over the years has to be brought to justice. Their the ones who did not establish appropriate procedures. Why did they not do something. I think we need to put Philip Brumley on the stand and question his practices and procedures. Attorney Philip Brumley for prison. We cannot have lawyers skirt the law.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Doc, here in Australia there is a lot of pent up anger towards Cardinal Pell and the efforts made to try to stop the abuse in the Catholic church which were resisted by the church leadership. I can imagine there is also a lot of pent up anger towards WT by victims and those who care, due to the way WT has resisted the efforts to stop the abuse. As WT continues to do nothing, the anger will continue to rise, and the more damage which will ultimately come WT’s way. It seems like our leadership are complete and utter dummies.

  25. Ted says:

    Ricardo, The reasons you present for the decline in
    new membership are all sound, but I would add a
    further one. In affluent countries (Where for obvious
    reasons the org, principally targets), the age of magic
    and myth is rapidly collapsing.

    The scientific era has taken over, it offers a more realistic
    view of the world we live in, using methods that can be
    tested. It’s knowledge formerly known to a few but now
    available to all, it’s true every thing is not known,
    probably never will be, but they don’t fill the gaps with
    the comfy cozy notion of a great invisible magician, that’s
    dogma that’s held us back for centuries, and fewer people
    are buying it any more.

  26. Sharon Christensen says:

    Summer…unfortunately keeps a lot of us uneducated folk kinda busy…then with folks dying off, family gatherings etc….but sometimes get to chk the posts…I can not believe the disgusting stuff in Imagonaburns post…if God would approve of such disgusting stuff, I want nothing to do with Him or this orgy who supposely rep Him! Unbelievable! What about that example at the assemble as to the sis who left and led such a terrible life til once again found the lord and returned to the …yeah creepin me out and yeah vomit! Or the tlk as to that bros. Dad saying wish he woulda started peopleneering even before he did! I had to quit wtchng…it has a way of sucking your mind, I can not take that. So glad I was not there in person….have a hard time not wanting to protest tight pantz, no bra , perhaps even no dentures, swiggin a Tim Hortons coffee while the rest drool over, as the smell of it wafts past their nose….Hahha! Winkin. blinkin and nod! Esp aft sessions! Sisters would complain on swollen legs and ft…and yeah…”the world” is a worse place to be? Kinda do not think so….Thanx all! Keep it comming!

  27. Whip It says:

    Outandabout, fantastic comments, people in general are being dumbed down, the average Jdub, wouldn’t have a clue as to whats really going on in the world, i recall after seeing one of the mass shootings in Paris on the news & then trying to talk to an Elder about it, he couldn’t care less.They just want mass destruction, lucky for me i have a great job, & spend most of my time dealing with real people in the world. For that i am grateful.

  28. Ted says:

    Good comments outandabout, I’d hate to go back to
    the conditions that existed in the 30s & 40s when I was
    a lad. But they’ve got to plug the hell in a handcart line,
    can’t have the R & F becoming satisfied and thinking
    there’s good in other people, that others care.

    These exaggerated scenarios and invented enemies are
    there for a purpose, it gives them cohesion, togetherness.
    They claim love among themselves, but that’s not enough.
    they need these adversaries, the bad guys, to project blame
    on to for their problems and shortcomings. — “Pedophilia
    in Gods org,! No way it’s slander, apostate lies”.! That’s
    as far as you’ll get with them.

  29. Average Joe says:

    @Ted You said: “Good comments outandabout, I’d hate to go back to the conditions that existed in the 30s & 40s when I was a lad.”
    According to the WTS, the world is in a worse state today than it has ever been. yest in the same breath they say that procedures for preventing child abuse are different (better ) than they were 20/30 years ago.
    So which is it?!

  30. messenger says:

    Is anyone else getting a security alert that claims the identity of this web site and its owner’s name on its certificate cannot be verified? I’ve been getting those alerts for some time, but they are becoming a problem now because of appearing more frequently. And they’re freezing my computer. I’m not seeing this problem when visiting other sites.

    • outandabout says:

      No, all good here, messenger.

    • Ricardo says:

      Me neither. Maybe an alert needs to be given to those visiting jw.org

      • messenger says:

        It didn’t happen when I wrote my comment today, but since past incidents were so frequent I’ll let you know if it starts again. There is a professional computer geek (elder) in my congregation, and also JWs who are professional computer geeks in my extended family. I’m not much on using the computer, so I don’t know what those folks could have done. But if infiltrating my computer by them is possible I believe they’d do it.

  31. Doc Obvious says:

    In 1920, the book, “Millions now living will never die”, was published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The book’s author was J.F. Rutherford. The book’s promise that people that were living in the 1920’s would never die has become untruthful and dishonest. As we move 97 years from the publication of that book, most people who would have been able to read that book would be over 100 years old.

    Both its author and the people who read that book are fertilizing dandelions as I write this post on JWSurvey. How sad.

    • Doc Obvious says:

      People putting their trust in the stupid ones do indeed fair badly. The Watchtower band aids to broken prophecy’s are coming undone. All it takes is time.

      Fred Franz prophecy that the 1914 generation would see the end of the system of things is a prophecy that unraveled after 100 years went by. It’s author also ferilizing dandelions.

      Then, we have David Splane’s band aid. Connecting one failed prophet with a soon to be second failed prophet. The overlapping generation teaching. Enough said on this one. Stupid is what stupid does.

  32. outandabout says:

    Thanks to those who mentioned my earlier comments, and Ted……if you think life in the 30’s and 40’s was bad, it still would have been a paradise compared to even fifty years earlier. If you want to see what I mean or if you haven’t already done so, go to ‘Our World in Data’ and type in ‘Homicides’ and then tell me which era you would prefer to live in. Then try, wars, hunger, malnutrition, disease, life expectancy, infant mortality, medicine, etc…. anything you can think of, add them all up and pinpoint an era of ‘the good old days’ where you’d like to jump into a time machine and travel back to.

    And yet these Neurotic Fantasists are praying their butts off to be returned to a time where they plow the soil with sticks and grind their wheat between stones – God has promised to destroy all of mans finest achievements, remember? These people will focus on current conflicts as a sure ‘sign’, but these conflicts are killing about 1.3 million people per year which is the same as road deaths worldwide, but these road deaths are not mentioned in the bible at all and so don’t mean anything to these people because their reality is warped. These people don’t seek truth at all but only constant reassurance and confirmation that what they believe is true.

    Any group of people who believe that young girls having their vagina’s torn asunder while under the watch of their ‘loving’ god is all part of a plan for a greater good are out of their skulls with delusion and their morality is a fake one.

  33. Whip It says:

    Delusion is the word, we are so close brothers & sisters, i am so sick of the dribble, thanks god for this site & others, i read recently that rutherford made up the whole great crowd stuff because more that 144000 had come in the org, so they needed somewhere to go, it all starts to make sense

  34. JeH0bo says:

    Excellent work as usual Lloyd. We all look forward to the dismantling of this evil cult JW/WBTS. They must be brought to destruction so no one else is harmed. I ask that all of you choose a local KH for Molotov baptism!

  35. Ricardo says:

    @Whip It,
    I don’t know how accurate that information is about noticing that more than 144,000 had come into the org. Did they really count how many individuals had actually come in and died faithful and add that to the number of publishers in the 1930’s? Did anyone hear Rutherford say that?

    My doubt is caused by the table showing total publishers through the years as seen in the Revelation book page 64(printed 1988). In that table it shows that total publishers for 1938 numbered 47,143, way below the 144,000 number. Imagine, from, let’s say 1879 when the first Watch Tower was printed, till 1938 (almost 60 years) only 47,000 odd publishers were produced. I don’t think the brothers had any thought that the number would soon be more than 144,000, but that happened in less than 10 years.

    Sorry, I got too excited with numbers. But anyway, if you take 47,143 and add all the brothers who had died faithful, I doubt there would be anything approaching 144,000.

    However, if one looks into the ‘questions from readers’ in the Watchtower Publications Index 1930-1985, one comes to a question asking how could there have been so few faithful Christians in the first couple of centuries after Jesus, because the number of anointed in the modern age were so many. It is interesting to see how it is explained: that so many Christians in the beginning were not really true Christians. I mean, how would this be known? Thousands and thousands of people became Christians in the first century, until the apostasy came in. Can there really have been so few faithful ones at that time?

    But that’s the way it had to be explained, because there were so many anointed still alive when that question was printed in the 50’s or 60’s. I’m afraid I could not find my Watchtower Publications Index for 1930-1985 to tell you what year to look that up in. If you have a CD Watchtower Library you can find it, but the online library is very limited.

    • Caroline says:

      jwfacts answers those questions.

      • outandabout says:

        True, JWfacts has the answers.

        Caroline….. when you’ve exhausted your unveiling of the Watchtower and if you didn’t notice my earlier post, you could try having a peep at the site ‘Our World in Data’. There you will find everything makes a mockery of Watchtower’s claims of gloom and doom and shows what humanity has and is achieving – and all this progress has been achieved despite the supposed overwhelming and irresistible force exhibited by Satan. And not only that, all these gains occurred while a section of the population were busy nurturing and promoting a fantasy that no good can ever become of the world, and so injecting a negative, ‘what’s the use’ attitude among the population. It hasn’t worked, simply because there is far too much good in the world.

        The world is full of good people. Sure, there is corruption and greed going on, but the forces of love, understanding and empathy and the desire to improve peoples lives are many many times stronger than this impotent Satan and the neurotic fantasies being promoted by the immoral cult of death known as religious fundamentalism. The facts prove it.

        • Caroline says:

          That sounds like an interesting site to look at outandabout. I will never forget once when my cousin (a witness) was talking about an incident that was in the news. It was about a man who had killed his family and my cousin started recounting how the Bible said that there was “no natural affection” like 1 Tim. 3:1-5 talks about and how Jehovah was going to step in and bring an and to such a terrible world.

          I wasn’t even awake then but I did tell her that just because of that one incident, it didn’t prove that there was “no” natural affection but that is how certain ones think.

          It is so unthinking if they just thought about what comes out of their mouths but that is how Watchtower likes to paint the world and when they hear it over and over again, that is how their minds are turned to mush and they just repeat the same phrases over and over again that they hear and read in Watchtower literature.

          It took me about 3 months of being fully “awake” before I wasn’t afraid of Armageddon.

          Now I can’t imagine even thinking that because there are a few bad apples in a tree, that the whole apple tree needs to be destroyed but that is what Witnesses preach and teach and believe to be the answer to anything bad that happens.

          Kill everything that breaths that doesn’t worship Jehovah, no matter what good they do in the world.

          • outandabout says:

            Well you’re a strong one, Caroline. A friend of mine was looking over his shoulder for Armageddon for 3 yrs after waking up. Now he can see it’s a cult and thinks the people he thought were his friends are deluded and pathetic. His words.

          • eyes opened says:

            No natural affection = shun parents, children, family and friends, don’t even answer the phone.

          • Caroline says:

            Yes, it is amazing that Witnesses don’t connect “no natural affection” when it comes to the conditional love in the Org.

        • Caroline says:

          outandabout, talking about your friend looking over his shoulder for 3 years in fear of Armageddon, when I first became awake, I told a “friend” from the hall who was worried about me not going to meetings anymore and I tried to reassure him that Jehovah was not going to kill me at Armageddon and he was so shocked by what I said and said it was so arrogant of me to think that Jehovah was not going to kill me at Armageddon. Those people are so convinced of Armageddon and anybody who is not a JW will be killed and they are not even sure they will be saved, let alone someone who dares to stop worshipping the Watchtower Organization.

          I feel sorry for them if they really care about me because they really think of me being roasted on a spit by Jehovah as Anthony Morris 3rd described it and no matter how much I try to reassure them that I am not going to be slaughtered by Jehovah, they don’t believe me and think I am crazy to think like that but maybe they think if I am really “crazy” that maybe Jehovah won’t kill me because I am certified nuts and not responsible for my actions.

          Even my son and oldest daughter think I am crazy for leaving Jehovah but I hope I live long enough for them to be awake to the truth about the truth while I am still alive so they won’t have to regret having said about me that I was crazy for leaving Jehovah when they realize it was all a lie and never got a chance to come to my side.

          • outandabout says:

            Yes, well I suppose, Caroline, to anybody inside the Org…. leaving the perceived safety of the Watchtower, to them, would be the same as committing suicide, so you can see why they genuinely think you are crazy.

            I guess waking up must take a bit of adjustment as well because that would be akin to finding out you’ve been adopted – an important part of your life is not what you thought it was and suddenly, the world is a different place.

  36. Doc Obvious says:

    The United States President trumps about “Fake News”. Are there other sources of Fake News?

    Since 1879, this magazine has been trumpeting news that could also be considered “Fake News”.

    How so, by prophesying things that do not come true. New light? Old light? Or, just fake news?

  37. Whip It says:

    Ricardo, maybe rutherford could see that a lot more people were going to come in & they used to believe they were all going to cloudland, not sure where i read it though.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Whip It, you are probably right. Rutherford seemed to have super confidence in whatever he did. He probably was convinced that millions would rush into his organization, and somehow that is what happened. (The antics the Witnesses got up to in the Rutherford days reminds me of Greenpeace when it first started. Protests, a lot of attention seeking, look at me- I’m the way to go. Under Knorr we became the Greenpeace of today… more sophisticated, businesslike, less reactionary.)

      He was super confident that Armageddon would happen before he died, but his confidence wasn’t able to make that happen.

  38. Doc Obvious says:

    According to Watchtower, all workers are under a vow of poverty. Meaning that all the work done there is done without pay.

    Question: Does this look like poverty to you?

  39. o says:

    Hi, Markie…in response to your question…..thanks, I need some confirmation as maths is not my strong point.

    From the ARC;

    Watchtower – 1000 abuse cases and 60,000 JW’s in Aust.

    Catholics – 4400 abuse cases and 5.4 million Catholics in Aust.

    Anglicans – 1000 abuse cases and 3.6 million Anglicans in Aust.

    Please let me know what you get, Markie.

    Cheers.

  40. Ted says:

    There must be something like the Titanic iceberg on their
    pedophile data base. Already racked up over a million &
    half $ in fines for withholding its contents from the law.

    Why are they willing to take such a huge, ongoing financial
    hit? Is it the numbers the data reveals, or is it the WHO
    that is so sensitive it must be concealed at all costs ?

    • messenger says:

      The fellow that started the Silent Lambs web site stated on a video some years ago that he heard from a source at Bethel who claimed WT had over 23,000 pedophiles on its New York Bethel data base.

      Also, let’s use the numbers from Australia as average worldwide numbers to assume a worldwide number of JW pedophiles reported to WT. I don’t keep up on the number of JWs worldwide or in various countries, but I do remember at the time of the ARC Australia had about 60,000 JWs and on Earth there was about 8,000,000. So let’s set up a math problem to assume the number of individual pedophiles in WT’s worldwide pedophile data base. Here we’re guessing all other countries then had the same ratio of pedophiles reported to their current publisher head count as Australia had.

      X equals the number of worldwide JW pedophiles reported to Brooklyn WT if all countries reported the same pedophile/publisher-count ratio that Australia did to the ARC. Australia WT reported a little over a thousand individual pedophiles that were reported to the Australian WT branch. We’ll round that number to an even 1,000 for an easier math problem.

      1,000/60,000=X/8,000,000

      1/60=X/8,000,000

      60X=8,000,000

      X=133,333 (rounded off)

      Whether the number is closer to 23,000 as the Silent Lamb’s web site owner heard or 133,333 as it would be if all countries reported stats similar to the Australian branch we can guess the news stories that would be written around the world about WT covering up pedophiles if that data base was made public. Also, think about the huge increase in potential lawsuits if lawyers could tract down a decent percentage of JW victims? If all that happened I agree with Ricardo, WT might not end, but bankruptcy and the selling off of a lot of its assets would seem probable.

      • messenger says:

        Australia WT branch also had about 5000 different reported files on its pedophiles. How many of those files were about the same incidents already reported or repeat offenders molesting different victims I don’t know. But let’s multiple that possible number of individual pedophiles in the WT New York data base times 5, because WT Australia had about 5 times more pedophile files than individual pedophiles.

        5 times 133,333 (assumed number of worldwide WT pedophiles)=666,665
        This yields the possibility of over 666 thousand pedophile files in the New York WT data base.

      • messenger says:

        “tract” should be spelled “track” in 3rd line from bottom in my post above