Article in major UK Newspaper: “We need to do more to tackle sex abuse among Jehovah’s Witnesses”
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The Times news organisation, one of the most prestigious and widely read news outlets in the UK, has today carried an article by lawyer Kathleen Hallisey calling for urgent action to address Watchtower’s worldwide ongoing sex abuse scandal.

Hallisey is extremely qualified to write on this issue. Her bio at the end of the article states:

She is a senior solicitor at Bolt Burdon Kemp, specialising in child abuse. She acted on behalf of the claimant in the landmark case of A v Watchtower [2015] EWHC 1722 (QB), the first judgment against the Jehovah’s Witnesses in the UK for historical sexual abuse.

What she says should therefore be taken very seriously.

Describing the issue as being “On a scale which may be comparable to the Catholic Church, Savile or the Football Association,” Hallisey outlines the facts that have now become familiar to anyone who has been following the developments of this story. Says Hallisey:

This is not a new issue. In 2002, the BBC Panorama programme Suffer the little children focused on allegations of sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Former members of the religion claimed that the organisation maintained a database of alleged paedophiles, ie a list of names against whom complaints of sexual abuse had been made. Survivors from the US and UK were interviewed. Their stories were tragic in the way that all such stories are. But the details about how the organisation is alleged to have dealt with their claims were particularly disturbing. After summoning the courage to report the abuse to the leaders of their congregations, they claim they were only asked if there was a second witness to the abuse, and it appears none of their complaints were reported to the police by the organisation.

Hallisey then goes on to outline the continuing failure of the Watchtower organisation since 2002 to implement any effective changes, and goes on to show how the organisation fails both the abuse survivors and the surrounding community in a tangible and very disturbing way.

Lastly, she gives and urgent call for the Government to take action include the Witnesses in the upcoming UK Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse, and also references the Charity Commission investigation currently taking place into Watchtower over this issue.

Personally, I echo the call Halliesy makes:

We need to do more to tackle sex abuse among Jehovah’s Witnesses.

This is not about religion or arguments over Biblical doctrines.

This is about organisation that is registered as a charity in many countries that is collecting data on the identity of unreported dangerous criminal predators and failing and in many cases actively refusing to pass that information on to the authorities whose job it is to keep us safe from such people.

This is a major public safely issue.

Watchtower’s actions leave dangerous predatory criminals at large. 

We call for urgent, direct and robust action from the Governments and from law enforcement to address the specific issue of Watchtower’s conduct in this area.

 Follow me on twitter @covertfade

Follow Kathleen Hallisey on twitter @khallisey16

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205 Responses to Article in major UK Newspaper: “We need to do more to tackle sex abuse among Jehovah’s Witnesses”

  1. Ricardo says:

    I, as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, would like to see our Governing Body fix this up so that victims no longer need to suffer, so that our reputation can start to be rebuilt, and so God stops being dragged through the mud by the mishandling and lack of care of our leadership.

    The longer it takes to fix this, the more victims there are and the greater the lack of sincerity on the part of our leadership appears to be. Why keep shooting themselves in the foot? Be humble and modest, and ask forgiveness from the victims and from Jehovah.

    This is a great sin on the part of us Witnesses. We are supposed to be the religious organization that shows love to the best degree in the world today. Is this love?

    It does not make me proud to be a Witness to see this sort of thing continue to happen, country after country, and nothing gets done to fix it.

    If the GB isn’t going to fix it, the GB deserves all the dishonour that is being aimed at it.

    This is not Satan attacking us, or God’s enemies attacking us. It is called ‘reaping what you sow’.

    And please nobody say Jehovah will fix it when he is ready. This has nothing to do with Jehovah. It has everything to do with the GB.

    • Mike says:

      @Ricardo

      I agree with you, that what you sow you reap.
      I also disagree with you about Jehovah. (Not intended for atheists). if this is Jehovah’s organization, then he has plenty to say about.
      1) Satan plays a row in this. “as god of this system of things” he has full control even in Jehovah’s organization. Dependent on how far Jehovah will let him go. Remember Job this is no different.
      2) It is dependent on his time. As God almighty if he wishes for nothing to be done. Than nothing will be done.
      3) If what is happening is wrong in God’s eyes. He has shown in the Bible, many times where he has disciplined his people to the proper degree. Sometimes that disciplined has been severe.
      4) Contrary to popular belief from this website. The GB are not perfect. And because of that, Jehovah to must deal with imperfect humans. As the bible has shown many times.
      5) The GB (Like everyone else) has legal rights and the right to even resist. Just like the government has lawyers to advise them so does GB.
      6) There is always two sides to every story, and for many reason we only know one side. Whether we believe it to be right or wrong, it is still just one side.
      7) The Gb is not being accused of Child abuse. They are being accused of with holding information, that many people believe should be made public. (Yes, I know many will say that is just like committing child abuse) Sometimes I feel that way too.
      8) I have recently spoken to our presiding elder about this. He informed me that they are instructed (there are about 8 congregations in my area) that the moment they here rape, abuse or anything like that. They are to stop the preceding’s and call the authorities or inform the parents to call the authorities.
      9) The people in this website are just like us, concerned about our children, and regardless of what we think, or what we read, we are all looking from the outside in. Including the lady who wrote this article. She wants to look from the inside out so she is trying to change things.
      10) At the end she might right. We will have to wait and see. If she is, What you sow you reap!

      Mike

      • JBob says:

        @Mike – #4, yes, acknowledging that God has to deal with imperfect humans is a given. Yet, inside this organization, activities are carried on with a double standard. Humans are imperfect is a perfect excuse for misconduct on an organization-wide scale or “goofs” and misconduct within administrative hierarchy, yet if I use that as an excuse as a rank and file member, will elders response be, “we’ll let J* handle it in His due time”?

        No, there are extensive policies for expectations of behavior and conduct from average members and the response. These rules are supposedly applied to all, equally, but again, the phrase, “J* will handle it in his due time” seems to apply when one has reached a certain hierachy level. Teflon elders and administrators where charges made roll off with no impact.

        A double standard.

        • messenger says:

          Too bad I can’t go to work and sleep all day, and then get pardoned by using THE EXCUSE! It’s the excuse used when they don’t want to even try to fix things, and they use it to get people out of their hair. Its the same reaction God condemned the Isrealite elite for having when they failed to give attention to the poor, weak, or helpless, as Isaiah declared. If they believe in God its a dangerous excuse to use.

        • Mike says:

          I will try to respond to all.
          1) I am one of the JW’s with no doubt in my mind. I used “if” to try to stay neutral

          2) Regardless of what you feel, believe, thing and so on you are most definitely entitled to think your way. I am a JW because when I (not you) look at the organization as a whole comparing it to the bible, I believe there is no other Christian belief that comes close to Jehovah’s people like the JW’s. No other religion has accomplished or done what JW’s have done. (I do not want to hear about, How about this verse or that? most of you take one verse and forget about the rest of the bible. or how about the false prophecy’s?, or I was there in 1914, 1975 you should have been there. remember I am blind, brained washed and so forth.)

          3) If you believe in God and that this is his organization than you have to believe he will take care of it. That is what faith is about. (I am not saying they are right)

          4) I do not serve the 7 men I serve Jehovah God who in (my blind eyes LOL) has chosen the JW’s as his way of communicating/ teaching his people.

          5) At romans 3:33 it says “Who will file accusation against God’s chosen ones? God is the One who declares them righteous” and at Matt 24:24 Jesus said “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.’ So if any of these men are any of the above, or have been mislead. Jehovah will take of it. Again faith. (remember what I believe not you)

          6) I have never read anything in any of our literature (Not to include blood and the child abuse situation) and I read them all COMPLETELY, that has ever harmed anyone. (Disfellowshipping is just part of our beliefs. you do not have to like it.)

          7) What I meant about Job is that Jehovah permitted it to happen at Satan’s request. So it is possible Satan requested it. If (staying neutral) this is Jehovah’s organization, than it would stand to reason that Satan would have something to say about it or do about it.

          8) I look at the bible first and I have compared many things. The bible says to keep testing that Jehovah is true. That is the reason I am here. So I can test it for myself. Some of you, not all, bring up some good points, that I actually spend time researching on the internet, in my bible, in other bibles and so on.

          9) Some of you might think, would God allow Child abuse, dying because no blood and whatever other reason you can come up with. The simple answer is Yes. He at times has ordered/done it himself the killing of entire families including kids. He has allowed all this suffering,killing and dying, all for his righteousness. So if you say I am not going to worship a god like that, trust me he does not care. Though he does not wish for any of his children to die. To accomplish HIS GOAL/WILL, he will do it.
          As he once said,” How you twist things! Should the potter be regarded the same as the clay?Should what is made say about its maker:“He did not make me”?
          And does what is formed say about its former: “He shows no understanding”? “Such upside-downness! or is the potter to be rated like the clay, that a work says of its maker “He did not make me” and a dish has said of its potter “He did not know what he was doing”?

          10) One thing I have learned about this site is two things.
          1) Some of you, not all, are very passionate about your beliefs and dislike of the JW’s. I have great respect for that.
          2) As many articles that I have read on this site, and I have read allot” one thing you people do not do is offer any type of hope. This is a place that you can share your grievances and dislikes about the JW’s. But still no hope.

          11) So! as I said before, if the JW’s are wrong and you offer no other type of hope. What does it matter if you die at 20 because of no blood or die at 80? dead is dead with no hope, you get 60 yrs to live in this imperfect, unrighteous, very violet world till you die. and still no hope.

          12) So at the end I wonder. Let’s say the JW’s release all files of known sex offender’s in whatever manner. Turn back their stand on blood so that now everyone can have a blood transfusion, if they so choose. Stop disfellowshipping, so that we can all get along. Apologize to everyone for being wrong and holding the child abuse files. Let’s say we do all that, are the JW’s now the true religion? Or have the JW’s become just like every other religion or do you find something else to complain about till the JW’s are all gone. And your sons/daughters can have that Christmas they always wanted, or fornicate, be gay and so on without no religious repercussions.

          It sounds like the world that Satan the Devil has always dreamed about. So at least you are not alone.

          (This message is not for Atheists your belief is obvious. “If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.” ) Still ho hope.

          Mike

          • Peggy says:

            @ Mike you ask, If JW’s reverse every policy that has caused pain and suffering are the JW’s now the true religion? Nope, not ever going to be, all wrong.

          • dee2 says:

            [“4) I do not serve the 7 men I serve Jehovah God who in (my blind eyes LOL) has chosen the JW’s as his way of communicating/ teaching his people.”]

            Mike,

            Look at what God has chosen the JWs to teach:

            The WT concluded that the “king of the south” in Daniel 11 is fulfilled in Britain and America, and “the king of the north” in the Soviet Union. (Your Will Be Done On Earth 1958, pp 263 & 278)

            In their Your Will Be Done book, the WT stated:
            – …the Soviet Union, the Communist power, that since it seized power in Russia in 1917, has held world domination as its aim to this day (i.e. up to 1958 at the time of the book’s publication).
            (p. 278)

            – Down to the ‘time of the end’ at Armageddon there will be competitive coexistence between the ‘two kings’. (p. 297)

            – Jehovah’s angel foretold further aggressions by the Communist king of the north before his end at Armageddon. (p. 300)

            – The Soviet Union will gain control of most of the world and its wealth and resources including oil.
            (pp 297, 303)

            – The Soviet Union will then be terrified by reports issued by the WT and initiate an attack against JWs. (pp 304-305)

            – Finally the Soviet Union and America will join forces to attack the JWs which leads to the annihilation of both America and the Soviet Union. (pp 306-307)

            – Billions of people on earth who are not JWs will at that time be destroyed. (p. 347)

            Despite predictions that the Soviet Union will competitively exist until Armageddon, and will fall at that time after aggressions against the rest of the world, the Soviet Union is now defunct and has fragmented into a Commonwealth of Independent States and former Soviet republics.

            In a previous WT book called The New World (1942) “The king of the north” was quite different and “included the Central Powers, or imperial Germany, Roman-Catholic Austria-Hungary, Roman Catholic Italy and Vatican…Japan…” (p. 324)

            An even earlier WT book called Thy Kingdom Come (1891) applied the latter part of Daniel chapter 11 to the Napoleonic period in 1799.

            http://ed5015.tripod.com/JwKingOfTheNorth25.html

          • dee2 says:

            [“4) I do not serve the 7 men I serve Jehovah God who in (my blind eyes LOL) has chosen the JW’s as his way of communicating/ teaching his people.”]

            Mike,

            Look at what God has chosen the JW’s to teach:

            One of the main elements of the doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is a specific interpretation of Daniel 4 which is very easy to argue against. The Witnesses interpretation, as set forth in pages 136-141 of their You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, extracts a prophecy which sets 1914 as the year in which Christ begins to rule as king of the “heavenly government.”

            Daniel 4:1-17 sees Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, describing a dream he has just had to his servant Belteshazzar (otherwise known as Daniel). Daniel 4:18-27 has Daniel interpreting the dream for his king, and Daniel 4:28-37 shows the fulfillment of the dream.

            In his dream, Nebuchadnezzar first sees a great, strong, and abundantly stocked tree. Then he sees an angel descend from heaven and declare that the tree should be hewn down, but the stump and roots left in the ground and bound with a band of iron. The angel finishes by declaring:

            “…let him graze with the beasts
            On the grass of the earth.
            Let his heart be changed from that of a man, Let him be given the heart of a beast, And let seven times pass over him” and letting it be known that the whole thing is a demonstration of the dominion of God over man.

            What Daniel says about this dream is that (1) the tree represents Nebuchadnezzar; (2) Nebuchadnezzar will be deposed for “seven times” until he realizes that God, and not he himself, is responsible for the greatness of the Babylonian kingdom; and that (3) Babylon will still be waiting for Nebuchadnezzar when the “seven times” are finished, and he will rule again.

            The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a unique way of interpreting all of this: they claim that:
            (1) the tree represents the supreme rulership of God because “Nebuchadnezzar was forced to know that someone higher was ruling”(p.138);
            (2) the cutting down of the tree represents the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar in 607 B.C.;
            (3) the “seven times” constitute 2,520 years because in Revelation, 1,260 days are equal to 3 and 1/2 times, and because each day counts for a year “according to a Biblical rule”(p.141);
            (4) adding 2,520 days to 607 B.C. yields 1914 as the year when Christ returns to rule God’s heavenly government.

            Now, this is not exactly what the Jehovah’s Witnesses have always said. Charles Taze Russel, whose public Bible studies formed the foundation of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, said :
            1799 – Last days began
            1874 – Start of Jesus’ invisible presence
            1878 – Jesus became king in heaven
            1914 – End of the world

            Jehovah’s Witness literature speaks of ‘the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.'”(“Will Christ Return?”, p.10).

            The Witnesses used to believe that 1914 would signal the beginning of God’s visible kingdom on earth, but now (since 1914 came and went with no sign of Christ descending from the clouds) talk about how Christ began to rule the heavenly kingdom in 1914, and will begin his visible reign on earth before the last person who lived in 1914 dies. This addition is based upon shoddy interpretation of some of the statements of Jesus – when Jesus said “But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God”(Luke 9:27) and “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place”(Mark 13:30), he was actually talking to – and referring to – that generation way back in the time frame in which he lived, not by any means to the generation of 1914. There is now an “overlapping generations” doctrine.

            This convenient change of doctrine, even if it did not have such glaring flaws, offers reason enough to suspect the Jehovah’s Witnesses of shoddy interpretation, but there is more: as said earlier, Daniel 4:28-37 describes the fulfillment of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream: Nebuchadnezzar is deposed, the seven times pass (certainly not 2,520 years), and the king humbles himself before God and is returned to power. As far as I can tell, the whole business with the dream is closed. There is no reference anywhere to the dream having a wider significance than Daniel’s own interpretation. There is no reason to equate the “times” in Daniel 4 with the “times” in Revelation, nor is there any reason to use the day-year principle. All of the clever handiwork of the Witnesses is a perversion of the clear intent of Daniel 4.

          • dee2 says:

            Mike,

            [ “7) What I meant about Job is that Jehovah permitted it to happen at Satan’s request. So it is possible Satan requested it……..” ]

            So Satan offers God a bet to ruin Job’s life and see if he stays faithful and God accepts unknown to Job?

            What motivated God to agree to the bet with Satan?
            Did God feel he had something to prove? Was it pride?
            Did God value being proven right over the suffering of an innocent human being and the deaths of others?

            This perfectly good and merciful deity stands by and just watches and does nothing while Satan wreaks havoc in Job’s life.

            Only a cruel god would have used an innocent man like a token/pawn in a game, and callously stood by and done nothing while his life was ruined – or worse yet, ruined that man’s life himself just to prove a point!

            It was just a wager between God and Satan. It was all just a game.

            Some try to excuse many other atrocities committed in the Bible as God’s just and deserved punishment of wrongdoers but can that explanation also be used here?

            We are told, sometimes God deliberately causes tragedy and disaster as a way of “testing” the faith of his believers, even though by definition he knows what the results of the test will be ahead of time.

            But if God is omniscient, then wouldn’t he have known full well in advance that Job’s faith would not falter, so what was the point of inflicting all this suffering on him?

            Wouldn’t a truly morally good deity not have agreed to the bet in the first place but instead would have told Satan:

            “Go away!”, “I don’t need to prove anything to you. Job is a good man who doesn’t deserve to suffer. I know he would remain faithful to me anyway, so I’m going to continue to bless him and I don’t care what you think about it.”?

            God could have told Satan: “Go away, I’m looking into the future and see what you want to do to him”.

            But no, he is a needy God and is agreeable to see people tested in a horrific way. Of course he’ll bless them in the future – but should they curse him whilst suffering they’ll then have suffered for nothing. Because He needs to know they love Him. It’s all about Him, Him, Him.

            The whole exercise in torturing this poor man is all for the sake of God’s ego. Just how needy and pathetic is this version of god? He would allow such suffering just for an: “I love you…… no really….. I do…….”

            So God prefers to ruin someone’s life just to show that he is God?

            Were Job’s children unique or were they just replaceable property? This all powerful deity thought that any replacement offspring will be just as good for Job.

          • dee2 says:

            Mike,

            7) cont’d:

            God’s response to Job’s suffering is interesting:

            Did Job ever find out why he suffered? Was Job right to claim his innocence and cry “Unfair!”?

            Did God apologize to Job or explain to him the reason for his suffering when grief-stricken, suffering and miserable Job demanded to know why he had been so afflicted?

            What kind of God would make a bet with Satan to ruin Job’s life unknown to Job, and then tells Job he has no right to an answer?

            There is one rare moment of candor – God admits that Job’s miseries were not deserved but that he destroyed an innocent man for no reason at all! (Job 2:3). But this confession was made only to Satan, not to Job or any other human standing witness.

          • dee2 says:

            Mike,

            “11) So! as I said before, if the JW’s are wrong and you offer no other type of hope……..”

            JWs insist that God made the earth just right for humans but couldn’t that also be said about the dinosaurs who lived for millions of years on the earth prior to humans?

            Then after those millions of years some major cataclysmic event wiped out the dinosaurs when God got tired of those toys.

            What was the point of God creating dinosaurs if the earth was really made for man?

          • dee2 says:

            Mike,

            “11) So! as I said before, if the JW’s are wrong and you offer no other type of hope……..”

            God could have created the universe in an infinite number of ways.

            So why didn’t God just start the world with the conditions that are claimed will exist in the Future Paradise?

            Free will but no inclination for sin OR free will, you can still sin but you are individually destroyed – your offspring are not penalized for your sin. No Satan or snake to tempt. No Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to tempt. No single point of failure.

            The very belief in this future Paradise shows that there is a set of conditions that God could have started with but did not. Jehovah is a poor designer.

            The deck was stacked against poor Adam and Eve.
            When one looks at nearly any complex systems, it’s common to build in a fail-safe so that the worse case scenarios is avoided. If imperfect humans are able to understand the importance of preventing a wholesale collapse from a single point of failure, then certainly an all-knowing, all-wise God should have considered this.

            But based on JW teachings, God did not think through that one of his angels, exercising free will, might go renegade creating havoc for the rest of his intelligent creations. Certainly, given the uniqueness of free will, God must have realized that this was a real possibility. And with billions of angels in existence, the odd were against him. So of course he had to know of this potential, otherwise why propound the test of loyalty with the Tree of Knowledge.

            Contrary to common sense, instead of planning for the worse-cast scenario, God set the world in motion, hoping for the best-case scenario. When that didn’t happen the all-wise Creator’s absolute best solution was to allow unimaginable suffering, corruption and bloodshed, for the majority of humankind, over the course of thousands of years. Yes, even the most innocent of children would have to suffer. And why not? His own spiritual sons would be made to endure the long-term disruptive influence of Satan in their heavenly home.

            And to cap of the brutality resulting from this single point of failure, God had already secretly planned to engineer the gruesome, humiliating death of his son. Even after this sacrifice, the gut-wrenching disaster that is human existence would need to grind on for another two thousand years. Then, once Christ is finally enthroned (1914) God would tack on 100+ more years of suffering (incidentally, while everyone in heaven is partying, having confined Satan to the defenseless earth. Another EXCELLENT idea).

            Jehovah’s Witnesses regularly refer to God as a father. I don’t know what decent father would allow the ongoing disruption of his household because of one rebellious son. I don’t know what loving father would allow circumstances in his home to spiral so far out of control that he’d knowingly allow a clearly evil son to kill his first born. Then once the deed is done, confine the killer in the baby’s room to do whatever he wishes.

            All of this because God didn’t plan past a single point of failure. It’s either that or…….?

          • messenger says:

            Hi Mike,
            Just now I quickly read your comment, and I haven’t taken time to read the list of responses to it, or the dialog you participated in after that. But I know your ideas are under attack. I respect the strength you show in defending your faith under these circumstances.

            In reading the comments on this site you’ve seen for yourself the total loss of faith that many have developed. You also noticed that most of us use to believe just as you do about the WT. But something happened to change that belief.

            When WT makes derogatory comments about every other religion you probably don’t see those statements as expressing personal hatred but instead hatred for the damage that’s done to God and man. Many here expose truth about the WT for the same reason, because of the damage it has done. And I’m sure you’ll agree that IF they are causing damage to people for failing to manage their organization according to Jehovah’s will, then people are justified for exposing that.

            The claim that God allows injustices in the organization to exist but will straighten it out later can be applied to the whole world, and every organization in it, therefore that thought really has no merit in attempting to justify WT’s actions.

            I personally don’t believe the worst so called damage WT has done is related to child abuse. I believe its related to the reason you read from this site. You want to know why, and what made, some of your brothers and sisters leave. And now you’ve learned that many of them didn’t just leave WT, they left God.

            If WT teaches what God wants them to, and they treat people, including their own, the way God wants them to then maybe, like you claim, all the fault lies with the ones that left. But do you really believe that’s true Mike?
            Love you brother.

          • Ejecting to Sanity says:

            A little leaven, a drop of poison…
            Speaking for myself, I am not an athiest, I have not abandoned God.
            I have left a man-made ‘organization’ that absolutely claims that this organization has the complete backing of Jehovah, that ALL other religions are false and are tools of Satan.
            WT claims that we need them for interpretation and understanding. Have said it in the past and the present.
            I knew that the hypocrisy and repetition techniques were making me shake my head in disgust. Then, when I began to really consider what Jehovah must be thinking, I knew I had to ‘get out of her’ then and there. Didn’t matter that I didn’t have another ‘religion to go to. We were never taught at the KH to be OK with ‘well, it’s better than the one even though we’re a mess..’. No sir.
            WT was always this way for the 20+ yes I was there:
            Things are either true or they’re not!
            So..
            It’s either Jehovah’s only organization with Jesus at the helm or its not.
            You can’t have it both ways.
            Either all the unbaptized young adults will die in Armageddon or they won’t Unbaptized beautiful grandchildren will die at Armageddon or won’t they?
            Just a few examples of absolute truths and you kniw which way you answer and nod in agreement at the KH.
            But, how do you answer them in your heart.
            If you have different answers depending on your locale, please think about what Jehovah is thinking. Just speaking from my heart.

          • concerned_jw says:

            Mike, like you I was an indoctrinated JW.

            There seem to be alot of JW’s here that are trying to defend the WT.

            We all really need to get the mind set out of our heads that WT was not chosen by Jesus in 1914.

            There is no scriptual evidence anywhere in the bible to back this up.

            On the other hand if anything there is far more scriptures that indeed say the opposite as false prophets etc.

            You cant compare the situation to Job.
            There is no way a merciful God would allow children to suffer the horrific sex abuse crimes that have been covered up by WT.

            After learning how close friends relatives have been affected, im totally disgusted.

            We also had a person who committed suicide in our congregation quite some years ago and now years later its come out that this person was a child abuse victim also.

            If you are trying to justify that this is OK, you need to ask yourself why God would permit this, when it makes many of these victims turn away from the faith, with some turning to atheism, drugs and alcohol and at the worst case, taking their own life.

            None of that happened to Job’s children. Its feeble minded to compare this to Job’s situation.

            You also have to read some of the tracts and publications that we used to hand out at the doors that condemned such child abuse and claimed only false religion would do this. Well their own publications speak for themselves dont they???

            Start doing your own bible research and find the answers there for yourself.

            There is no reason to need to be a member of any large organized religion. JW may have alot of truths, but there is a ton of garbage they teach us also.

            Im happy to study with other EX-JW’s now and many are now turning away, its wonderful to see so many elders and CO’s worldwide who are waking up and finding the truth.

            I encourage you to do the same.

            Im now able to share my own thoughts with others and also study critically which something the JW faith has prevented me from doing so.

            I feel far better spiritually now, and I really dont think I can live a double life as a JW for much longer…

      • outandabout says:

        Yes, Mike….you definitely sow what you reap.
        You say ‘if’ this is God’s organisation. You have doubts? Notice what G Jackson said at the ARC when surprised with a piece of alternative scripture. He said he will have to ask Jesus when he see’s him. He got back to the ARC pretty quickly so he must have ‘seen’ Jesus even though Jesus is invisible, and as a Witness, you are forced to believe that. Jackson slipped up on the lie. There is no invisible Jesus.

        Wed, May 19, 1943 page 2 of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle; ‘Jehovah God is the editor of the Watch Tower, official magazine of Jehovah’s Witnesses, according to sworn testimony by Fred Franz before Supreme Court Justice Ughetta and a jury today’.

        Anything printed in WT comes from Jehovah directly, apparently. Therefore the 2 witness rule and subsequent damage belongs to Jehovah?

        How convenient for you that when things go wrong in Jehovah’s mighty and impenetrable Org, it’s poor old Satan’s fault, as always. Any chance of Jehovah taking responsibility for his actions?

        ‘Satan has full control even in Jehovah’s Organisation’? Mike, Mike…..what are you saying!? Are you suggesting the 7 GB members are actually the 7 headed beast of Revelation? Is Satan printing the WT now? Do Witnesses have serpents coming out their mouths now because of reading and digesting Satan’s words? That being the case, Satan must have been in control of WT since at least 1950. What about all those JW’s who died since then and won’t get resurrected because they were in a cult?
        How come everything that comes out of the GB’s mouths is absolutely and irrevocably true when it suits JW’s and when they stuff up, the much used cop out phrase about imperfect men comes out. Witnesses are taught to lie to themselves every single day of their lives to prevent the scam from unraveling.

        You can’t have it both ways and it’s clear to me you are floundering, Mike. I’m sure you’re a good person as most JW’s are and I wish you well. I’m sorry if this appears to be a personal attack. It’s not.

        • Mike says:

          It does not bother me. You miss understood what I meant or I did not make clear what I meant. Trust me my faith has in no way floundered, it has been strengthen by you people.

          Thank you Mike

          • Ricardo says:

            It is certainly faith strengthening to see our donations being paid out as compensation for child abuse for which our organization is responsible!?! Maybe if you are Catholic. If you are a good Christian you would feel heart-broken for the victims, and if you are any sort of witness you should feel ashamed. But faith strengthened? What sort of human being are you? Do you think Jesus and Jehovah are feeling happy seeing this sort of thing?

          • Mike says:

            @Dee2

            All that writing only proved my point. If as you say JW’s are wrong than no one has anything to worry about. We all die with no hope.

            About all those other questions.
            1) I am but clay, you are going to have to ask the potter yourself. Oh I forgot! There is no potter. Again it looks like whether your a JW or not it does not matter. No hope
            2) If there is a potter, and I believe there is, I am not going ask him nothing, because you are not going to be around for me to give you your answers. (Assuming you do not change your course.) (Ok everyone else, bring it because of this comment)
            3) I do not have the answers to your questions. If I did I would be running this website. Telling you what to think instead of someone else.
            4) I am no one to judge God, as to why he did what he did. I would be careful, as for those last few statements you made, are not to me but to him. Because you and me both know I was not going to know the answers to those questions before you wrote them.
            5) If the JW’s are right! (Which I believe they are) everyone in this website better watch out for the end.

            Mike

          • dee2 says:

            @Mike,

            ” 4) I would be careful, as for those last few statements you made, are not to me but to him.”

            Is this why you don’t question what is written in the Bible and examine it critically? Are you afraid that God is going to make something bad happen to you or punish you if you were to do so?

            It seems the whole reward and punishment aspect of religion breeds this fear – do not question or critically examine the Bible and you will avoid punishment.

            Well Mike, I need to test the claim whether God wrote the Bible or whether men wrote the Bible so I have to examine it critically and question what is written in it in order to be able to do so.

            Getting back to Satan’s being cast down from heaven to the earth (Revelation 12):
            Wasn’t the point of Job’s suffering to settle the issue with Satan and silence Satan? Yet Satan has been allowed to continue to wreak havoc in people’s lives and become “the god of this system of things”. So the issue hasn’t been settled then, Job’s suffering was for nothing, it was all in vain.

            This contradiction should make you question whether the Bible was written by God or by man.
            ___

            “5) If the JW’s are right! (Which I believe they are) everyone in this website better watch out for the end.”

            – Jesus gave the following deadlines for the end of the world which have already passed:

            1. Before the destruction of the temple
            2. Before the passing of Jesus’ generation
            3. Before the apostles/disciples finished traveling through the cities of Israel
            4. Before the death of the incumbent high priest:

            Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 14:53-62, Mark 8:39 to 9:1, Mark 13:30-33, Matthew 24:34 – 36, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, Luke 9:26-27, Mark 1:14 – 15, Matthew 10:23, John 21:22 etc.

            There’s a strange and powerful magic to Jesus’ end of the world prophecies which were made some 2000 years ago – each new generation of readers is convinced that Jesus meant his prophecies only and exactly for them. Every new generation that comes along is perfectly willing to overlook the plain fact that the world has not ended as predicted. Each generation applies the prophecies to its own time.

            Just some friendly advice – don’t hold your breath for any divine intervention to end the world and bring Paradise so that you can live forever. Make sure to prepare yourself for old age emotionally and financially.

            If the world is going to end it won’t be by means of divine intervention, it will be man’s doing and ultimately yes, an end of the world will come when the sun has used up its finite supply of hydrogen fuel and the earth will be no more.

            Something else to think about: Can you explain why animals suffer and die despite not having sinned?

          • dee2 says:

            Mike,

            Some other things to think about:

            In the Old Testament (OT) death was viewed as:

            – a natural part of life, even welcomed at times as earned rest (cf. Job 3:13-22, Psalm 13:3),

            – occurring at its proper time (Job 5:26, Ecclesiastes 3:2, 7:17; cf. also Job 14:5, Psalm 139:16 in which the length of one’s life is already predetermined).
            The OT refers to dying peacefully after living a full, complete life. See, for instance: “If they obey and serve him, they fulfill their days in prosperity and their years in pleasantness. And if they do not listen, they will perish by the sword and die without knowledge” (Job 38:11-12; cf. Deuteronomy 4:40).

            – the peaceful conclusion to a long life (cf. Genesis 15:15, 25:8; Judges 8:32; 1 Chronicles 29:28).

            What was feared and despised was dying prematurely, as an unfortunate misfortune, as divine punishment or as capital punishment (cf. Genesis 6:6-7, 9:6,19; Exodus 32:28, 35; Leviticus 10:2, 14:23; Deuteronomy 28:21-26; Psalm 90:7-9).

          • dee2 says:

            Mike,

            Again, I am going to ask:
            If we truly have free will then why didn’t God just start the world with the conditions that are claimed will exist in the future Paradise?

            The very belief in this future Paradise shows that there is a set of conditions that God could have started with but did not.

            Free will but no inclination for sin OR Free will, you can still sin but you are destroyed. No Satan or snake to tempt. No Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to tempt. No death by sickness or aging since humans would be perfect. No single point of failure.

          • poky44055 says:

            @Dee2
            Your freewill is the right to choose to serve him or not serve him under his conditions, not yours. at Acts 10:34-35 It states: At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

            Now God could have done it anyway he wanted to. He could have done it your way, but guess what he did not. He could have killed Adam & Eve and started over but he did not. Instead he choose to give time to Satan’s claim whether or not man can live forever without him. (As creator of all mankind, he has that right.) Now as regards our sins, he has made provisions to forgive the sins of “man who fears him and does what is right” Right in his eyes not ours, no matter how right or just we might think it is. At 1 john 2:17 it reads “the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever”
            Dee I hope that answered your 1/29/2017 question.

            Mike

            If your are atheist do not worry about it. However if you believe in God, There is a will along with other things you must do to remain. I did not make the rules.

          • dee2 says:

            Mike/Poky,

            In the future Paradise, will persons bear responsibility for someone else’s sins or their own sins?
            Why couldn’t this be the situation now? Why do we have to bear responsibility for the sins of Adam and Eve and not our own?

            Now we have to experience sickness and death because we are being penalized for what someone else did.

            This is immoral as there is no justice system in the world which requires children to pay the penalty for a crime committed by their parents. Try telling a court of law that it is your children who should be penalized if you should commit a crime. God luck with that one!

            God ruined Job’s life just to prove that he is God. Wasn’t that supposed to have settled the issue?

            Job’s suffering was all for nothing, it was all in vain, since God is still giving time to Satan to wreak havoc in people’s lives.

            This makes God the engineer behind the sickness, death, suffering and evil in the world. YET YOU COMPLAIN JUST HOW BAD THE WORLD IS when it is in fact God who is the engineer behind it all.

            All this time I thought God loved us and wanted the best for us instead God prefers to carry on a pissing contest with Satan at mankind’s expense. How many more lives must be ruined before God ends his pissing contest with Satan?

            And yes, “the world is passing away” (1 john 2:17)……….in a coupla million years from now the sun will implode and the earth will be no more.

            Again I ask you:

            Can you explain why animals suffer and die despite not having sinned?

      • Ricardo says:

        Mike, let’s stop for a minute and think of the victims, and humble ourselves somewhat.

        Our organization is at fault and has had to pay millions of dollars in compensation because elders have allowed known child molesters to knowingly work with little sisters in the field service and as a consequence the little girls have been molested.

        This shows the low quality of our elders. They are responsible for 1)not taking proper steps to deal with the known child abuser, 2) not informing the congregation about the known child molester so that parents could protect their children and 3) not taking steps to make sure the child molester would not work with children in the field service.

        Why are our elders so low quality? Why didn’t they take appropriate action against the child abuser, etc? All fault points back to the GB.

        The elder arrangement, although based on scripture, has been implemented in a faulty way by who? The GB. Why haven’t the faults in the elder arrangement been fixed in the 46 years the arrangement has been in force? The GB. Why are the elders so poorly trained? The GB. Why aren’t congregations informed about child abusers? Due to the policies of the GB, and due to the faulty judicial committee system which is not based on scripture. Again, it’s the fault of the GB.

        Yes, Mike, the GB are not perfect. But it doesn’t need much intelligence to fix such a clear problem. However, they stubbornly refuse to do anything, although the problem is easy to fix. You say the elder told you they were to inform the police of any child abuse. However, we have no proof that that is actually the case.

        As the way the elder arrangement is implemented is faulty and not Bible-based, as is the judicial committee arrangement, I do not see why you are saying Jehovah will do something about it. Jehovah has nothing to do with it. If Jehovah was involved he would ensure the two arrangements were carried out the scriptural way. As Jehovah is not involved but the GB is, the GB has the responsibility to fix this up, a responsibility which they are at the moment badly failing in.

        Saying that Jehovah will discipline them to the proper degree is a cop out. The real situation is that due to elder incompetence (therefore GB incompetence) the organization is being punished, just as I am if I speed in my car. My punishment for speeding has nothing to do with Jehovah.

        You are correct that to every story there are two sides. Unfortunately we are hearing nothing from our side. Let’s face it, honestly, our GB are acting like a group of cowards who refuse to acknowledge their fault.

        I think they should apologize to each and every witness. Individually we can do nothing to change what is happening. The GB can. How embarrassing, and motivation sapping, to go preaching with this shameful newspaper report hanging over our heads.

        If the staffroom talk gets onto this topic, sure I am going to be ashamed to be a witness. But it doesn’t need to be this way if the GB would fix things up. I can’t. All I can do is refuse to donate any money to them. What’s the use of donating if the money will just be paid out as compensation for the incompetence of the GB?

        • Winston Smith says:

          Ricardo,
          You are correct. The elder arrangement is seriously flawed. This is in part based on the low bar set to become an elder. When I served for nearly a decade, I saw a number of men come up for appointment, most of them sadly lacking in qualifications. If a brother has served as an MS for a period of time, was at all the meetings, made the mandatory 10 hours a month in service, family seemed relatively under control, they appointed him. There was no real consideration of his qualities, insight, love for others, etc. it was basically, “well we can’t think of any reason not to appoint him.” Of course this precludes whether any of the current elders have a particular grudge against him, then he could walk on water and still be counted as unqualified. Also elders’ sons, son-in-laws, and buddies are put on a fast track to eldership. And of course this arrangement perpetuates itself.

          When served I could not believe the level of ineptitude, callousness, and downright meanness that permeated the body. I finally could not in good conscience participate in it any longer and resigned.

          WS

          • Ricardo says:

            @WS, that was very decent of you to stand down. It certainly shows modesty, which most elders do not seem to possess.

            Unfortunately it is not only other elders who see the incompetence and lack of love and care in our elders. Once we do see it, lose all respect for them and their position, and have no wish to be in any congregational position, I believe we become a puzzle to them. One CO said a brother in this condition is one of the biggest threats the elders face. Do you see any truth in this?

            I take it you are no longer associating?

          • Winston Smith says:

            @Ricardo
            I started fading toward the end of 2012 and I am totally inactive/faded now. After resigning as an elder I stuck it out for a few years because I still believed it was God’s organization and that he would fix things. But once I was no longer serving, I finally had time to research all the questions I had (people often assume elders are so well read, but truth be told the organization keeps us busy with so many other, often useless, activities, that there is little time for deep bible study).

            I was a fifth generation JW and had family members that were associated directly with Russell and Rutherford. As such, I had inherited a full set of studies in the scriptures and many of the Rutherford books. I started looking into the actual early teachings and found that they were totally different from the current ones and what I and been told about the old teachings. Shortly before I started fading, I read 1984 by George Orwell and I saw so many similarities between the control of the fictitious government of Oceana and the Watchtower Society, it was uncanny. I slowly began to realize that the way things operated were inline with the way cults operated. Today, I fully believe the JWs are a dangerous cult and in no way directed by God. I respect the rights of anyone who is awake, but chooses to stay “in” due to the problems they would encounter if they left. My wife and one teenage child are still in, along with the majority of my family (I have anither teenage child who has left the religion). I am shunned by many of them and I have to keep my opinions low key around my relatives who aren’t currently shunning me. I hope that I live to see the day when this organization is toppled (or drastically restructured) so that any who wants to leave can do so without the risk of loosing everyone they care about.

            As for threats, lies always fear truth and so I think that awakened members are certainly a big threat to the organization. The biggest threat, however, is the availability of information. The Watchtower can no longer keep its secrets and hide its past in the Information Age. Another threat is the problem that Armageddon simply doesn’t ever seem to get here and their attempts to explain away failed predictions get more and more far fetched. Mental gymnastics I have heard them called.

            WS

          • Ricardo says:

            @WS, it is great to have a person with your experience commenting on this site.

            I can see a great need for the restructuring of the organization, or its toppling. I want to be there when it topples so I can laugh at the elders who will be so sad to see it happen, and yet who were responsible for its toppling by their unquestioning obedience.

            The GB seems to be hoping that armageddon will come so they won’t need to do anything about the child abuse.

            I believe we are at a crossroads at the moment. The worldwide decreases are about to start (something we haven’t had in 40 years) and the sex abuse court cases are about to become a deluge (about which the GB has been totally silent). And the typical witness has not been warned to be ready for either. It is going to be interesting to see the effect.

          • Roy says:

            Regarding appointment of MS or elders on you viewpoint it seems they are not qualified, how about Jesus choosing mostly fishermen as apostles and not the Pharisees and Sadducees who are well educated during there times. Will you question Jesus?

        • Mike says:

          @Ricardo

          As I said to you before. At the end of the day you just might be right. “And I do think about the victims” And I do not believe they should hold any files.

          All I mean is that GB has legal rights, (We do not have to like it) There is always two sides to every story. (Even if the GB will not give us their side) Not all of this is true (No matter what this site or other people think). In that list there is probably other people who where once pedophiliacs who are no longer, have served their time, have the right to be forgiven, and the right to move on. (Just like those abused have the right to justice.) One I know from my area, has chosen (without no treats of disfellowshipping) to leave it alone and are satisfied with the result by the elders. (They have rights to. You do not have to like it)

          At the end, if the governments find a way to get the files we will find out.

          Mike

          • Ricardo says:

            @Mike, throughout all your posts there seems to be the common theme of defending the GB no matter what. Every excuse possible you have given them. However, the crimes taking place and being permitted to continue to take place, are dispicable and can only take place under the GB’s guidelines.

            Thus, the GB may not be doing the crimes, but they are responsible, and I repeat the word responsible as it seems a word you are having trouble with, for having an arrangement with flaws in it which they refuse to change, or at least to change meaningfully.

            So, when it comes to a point of choosing to support Jehovah, or support the GB, which one should have our loyalty?

            It seems you think unqualified loyalty to the GB is essential. As a witness, I put my loyalty to Jehovah first. Remember the title of our last regional: Remain Loyal to Jehovah! It was not: Remain Loyal to the GB!

            I feel that is where the problem here is. Perhaps you have trouble accepting that the elder arrangement has a flawed implementation which is not scriptural. Or you have trouble seeing that Judicial Committees are not at all Bible-based.

            As these two systems are faulty and the blame cannot be pinned to Jehovah, surely the blame should go to the one who implemented the faulty systems. And who is that? The GB.

            The GB may not be perfect. As I have said before, when I drive my car over the speed limit, and let’s say I kill or injure someone, I am not perfect. But I must be responsible.

            And that is something the imperfect GB is not being.

          • Mike says:

            @Ricado

            You do not who I am, How deep my loyalty is to God.

            Me being a good Christian or witness is not determined by what you think or what you feel is right or wrong.

            Perhaps if learned how to comprehend a full sentence. You would have read where I feel shamed or I think it is wrong to withhold files that would protect the child or other children.

            You would have read where my loyalty is to Jehovah not the 7 men. I did not put them there nor can I remove them. I look at our beliefs as whole compared to the bible.

            And yes my faith is strengthen by this website. Not because of their stand against the child abuse situation. This topic is just the tip of their iceberg, there are many other pages in this site talking about other things. This site is purely about hating the JW’s and nothing else. Yes it is true that in some cases, they bring out what seems to be valid points, time will tell. But do not get me wrong, this is a hate group. And Jesus spoke about how his people would be treated just like this these people are doing. That is faith strengthening to me.

            Perhaps you should look in the mirror. It appears by your writings you are not happy with the JW’s. You can always become inactive or disfellowship yourself and move on with your life.
            I will admit one thing, these people here are not a hypocrite to their beliefs as you are to yours.
            I am firm to my and will stand by it. What I sow I will also reap. But unlike you I am no hypocrite.

            Mike

          • Ricardo says:

            @Mike, you know who I am. I am Ricardo. Everyone who knows me knows who I am, because I do not hide who I am. Anyone who has heard my answers at the meetings knows who I am, and they know I am no hypocrite.

            But many honest hearted witnesses are starting to feel disgusted with what they see happening inside our organization, and because they can’t see it being fixed up or even explained, they don’t want to be hypocrites so they have left. I feel this is totally unnecessary if the GB would fix what is faulty.

            Rather than fix what is faulty, the GB puts the fault onto those that are leaving. So, you can see why I am unhappy: the GB is stubbornly not taking responsibility.

            I am also unhappy because I have been continually abused mentally and emotionally by the leaders in our congregations. If a dog gets run over by a truck and yelps, do we call it a hypocrite? Do we go over and kick it in the guts and tell it to be quiet? Do we tell it to just go off and die? And yet that basically is the response you have given me.

            Should not the truck driver be spoken to, to not run over any more dogs, and be penalized? And yet nothing happens to the truck drivers (elders), even after they forge letters from the GB.

            There is no need to keep on defending the GB when the GB is wrong. I feel this is the point of difference between us. You feel we must support the GB no matter what, no matter what they have done. Support for the GB you equate to support for Jehovah. I disagree. I can see years down the line this time now will be remembered as a time of great shame for the witnesses. Unfortunately, it doesn’t need to be.

          • Winston Smith says:

            @Mike
            “You can always become inactive or disfellowship yourself and move on with your life.”

            I got to call B-S on that statement. If you are half as smart as you seem to think you are, you know that anyone who has family in this religion cannot leave without risk of losing them. While the Watchtower discourages women from leaving an abusive mate, they fully support her if she leaves because of “spiritual endangerment.”

            This website is a hate group? The JWs are a hate group. They teach that anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their twisted form of Christianity deserves everlasting death. Through their extreme shunning and hatred toward anyone who does not conform to their requirements they have pushed many into depression and even to commit suicide.

            The commenters on this site don’t hate, but have awoken from the web of JW lies and mind control. They seek to help others who are similarly struggling with undue influence in their lives.

            WS

          • concerned_jw says:

            Mike,
            If you are a true “JW” you should not even be here commenting.

            So as you say, are you loyal to God or the WT?

            Bible makes it clear who we are supposed to follow, but i expect you already know that, so I urge you to critically study everything you have been taught.

            Im a 4th generation JW, ive seen alot, and so have the previous generations that have passed on.

            I can tell you that there is alot going down with WT that you may not be aware of, but it will be exposed very soon for everyone to see.

          • messenger says:

            @Mike
            Mike, is WT a hate group also? Do they do to other Christian denominations what those on this site do to WT, and JW. Org?

            I believe if you’re honest then you’re convinced they do…but not for just the 4 years are so that people here have been doing it, WT has been spilling this kind of venom on others for over 100years. “Poison of asps is on their tongue.”

            So really, what makes them have God’s approval to do that while we don’t? You agreed WT is wrong by hanging onto the sex files….and you know that’s not just because of the unethical reasons concerning children. You’re not stupid. You know they’re breaking the law on a daily basis. And we know you’ve seen Cedars’ clicker counting their financial costs. But you’re a Christian Mike; you know that the financial costs means nothing to God. But WT breaking the law and having Steve Lett lie about it does count with God.

            Everyone here knows this Mike. And for the Christians here, they know the scriptures teach to hate what is bad. If you justify WT’s actions, then why don’t you justify the actions of every other Christian denomination? Isn’t it hypocritical not to? If WT is approved why aren’t they? Or, in your mind and WT’s mind do you feel you have the right to decide what types of practiced sins Christ forgives, and who can commit those sins and receive forgiveness? Who are the hypocrites that practice sin publicly while judging those they should recognize as spiritual brothers?

        • Big B says:

          Bravo, Ricardo!

          “Saying that Jehovah will discipline them to the proper degree is a cop out. The real situation is that due to elder incompetence (therefore GB incompetence) the organization is being punished, just as I am if I speed in my car. My punishment for speeding has nothing to do with Jehovah.

          You are correct that to every story there are two sides. Unfortunately we are hearing nothing from our side. Let’s face it, honestly, our GB are acting like a group of cowards who refuse to acknowledge their fault”.

          Beautiful explanation and
          insight comments with excellent examples of WATCHTOWER failure and their responsibility and culpability.

          And they call themselves Jehovah’s Organization? Yeah, right; sure they are. LOL 🙂

          Big B

          • Big B says:

            To all:

            Mike, like many of those blinded by cult indoctrination, appears to be a “Jehovah’s Witness Apologist”.

            My country, right or wrong, but my country. Frequently used either as an expression of jingoism (extreme patriotism), in the sense “I will stand by my country whether it be right or wrong”. Therefore, everything that the organization teaches (no matter how inane) and whatever the Governing Body does or doesn’t act on (namely their jobs of keeping the organization free of sex offenders) seems to be OK to a Jehovah’s Witness Apologist.

            After all, Jehovah’s Holy Spirit backs his Organization does it not? And who agrees with that besides the blinded ‘sheeple’ inside the congregations and their equally blinded shepherds who receive their marching orders from the so called ‘Un-faithful and Discrete Slave’?

            What physical proof is there that God’s spirit is behind or backing this organization?

            Is there the pillar of cloud by day and fire by night (Shekinah light) floating over Wallkill, NY?

            If Armageddon were to come tomorrow, the last place I would seek refuge would be the Kingdumb Hall. Indeed, I would rather die at Armageddon, which I don’t for a second believe in as it is mentioned in a book full of symbolism, than spend ‘everlasting life’ with a bunch of Jehovah’s Witness apologists and hypocrites.

      • Summer says:

        This is NOT God’s organization. God has nothing to do with it.

        • Freedom says:

          Right on Summer. This is an organization ruled by selfish power hungry men who cares for no one. They are not even afraid of God bringing punishment upon them for deliberately misleading and lying to those following them and the organization. They have twisted and misrepresented the scriptures for their own gain. Those still part of the organization are worshiping 7 men and an organization – not God.

      • dee2 says:

        Mike,

        “1)……..Dependent on how far Jehovah will let him go. Remember Job this is no different.”

        Mike,
        Who is Job in this case?

        “1) Satan plays a row in this. “as god of this system of things” he has full control even in Jehovah’s organization.”

        Wonder how Satan became the
        “god of this system of things”?

        Would it have anything to do with the fact that God cleansed the heavens to protect his spiritual family by sending the demons down to the earth (Revelation 12:7-12)? It was important for God to get rid of these pesky demons from heaven but then he gave them to mankind to deal with and we now have to fight them. !!!!FTW

        • Tranquillo says:

          Mike, may I suggest you to check the silentlambs website? You can easily find there that the solutions to the management of child abuse were already pointed out to the GB in ’92!
          easy solutions, easy to implement. It is not a matter of errors or imperfections, it is a matter of cynical choises due to economical issues and power issues

        • Mike says:

          @Dee2

          That would mean God has allowed it. And God will fix it.

          • dee2 says:

            Mike,

            Wasn’t the issue settled with Job? Shouldn’t Job’s successful completion of the test have put the issue to rest?

            If the issue was settled with Job then why has God cast Satan and his demons down to the earth for this very purpose (Revelation 12) to wreak havoc in people’s lives and keep testing humans all over again?

            Why would a loving God release a plague of demons upon his creation to terrorize/torment them and wreak havoc in their lives?

            Now the entire world is in the control and power of invisible demonic forces hellbent on destroying humanity.

            Is it that God prefers to ruin people’s life just to show that he is God?

            Why doesn’t God be fair about this then? Why not allow Satan & his demons to wreak havoc in heaven as well? Why just on the earth?

            Now everyone in heaven is partying, having a good time while Satan is confined to the defenseless earth.

      • messenger says:

        @Mike,
        Hello Mike, please think about what you are claiming in your point #1. The situation discussed here is not like Job’s case. Job didn’t sin; he was attacked. And please read 1John 3:9-10…everyone born from God does not practice sin.

        What the friends are discussing here is not an attack against the WT organization, which is what would have to have occurred if their situation was to be like Job’s. What’s discussed is the organization’s sinful practices in responding to a situation they contribute to. One of their responses is to violate court orders by refusing to turn over court mandated discovery docs-see one of their Zalkin Law cases in San Diego CA. They hypocritically teach us to obey the government while they disobey it. Another lie by Stephen Lett claimed that they have no problems with sexual child abuse, that the stories stem from apostate lies.
        Best wishes brother!

    • Ronald S. Ouellette says:

      I am also a JW and it’s not dragging God’s name through the mud it’s dragging the organization through the mud. Just because the organization’s name have Jehovah in it doesn’t mean dragging one through the mud drags the other). Shame on the organization and not God. Some think God and the organization are one in the same and they are not. Worship is to Jehovah only and we can be loyal to the organization or anyone for that matter up until something like this happens.

      As mentioned. be humble, admit your mistake, apologize and beg for forgiveness. How many articles state that the GB are not inspired or infallible and make mistakes but the only mistakes revealed are not mistakes but called ‘light getting brighter.’

      So many put rules in place when it’s about principles. If two sister congregations can’t agree on rules/principles than how can both be directed by HS.

      In the end, the organization will only change policies to easy the resentment of the publishers so that the publishers are less angry and will donate more money.

      Shame shame

      • Ricardo says:

        Ronald, how many times are we told that we are representing Jehovah not only in our field service but also in our day to day lives? Thus, if we do things wrong, it brings dishonour on Jehovah’s name. Can you remember hearing that? We are told it again and again and again.

        So when our organization makes a major stuff-up, the organization that is claiming to represent Jehovah in today’s world, then it reflects badly on Jehovah, it brings dishonour to him and drags his name through the mud. His organization is dragged through the mud. His witnesses are dragged through the mud.

        And please realize that there is a difference between being imperfect and being incompetent. The GB may be imperfect. But that in no way excuses the incompetence and stupidity we see them displaying in the handling of child abuse. What has been their response to child abuse? Basically nothing.

        As you say, shame, shame. Not only the outside world is pointing at the GB and saying shame, shame. Even the witnesses are pointing and saying shame, shame.

        • Big B says:

          @ Ricardo;

          “Not only the outside world is pointing at the GB and saying shame, shame. Even the witnesses are pointing and saying shame, shame”.

          Where in the world are the witnesses pointing and saying ‘shame, shame’?
          You and I both know that the average publisher has no idea that there is a problem of pedophile protection or child molestation in the organization.

          The ‘sheeple’ are fat, dumb and happy’ (read: stupid and lazy). The majority of the friends, including the elders, are totally ignorant of the Watchtower being a member of the U.N. for 10 years as a NGO (Non-Governmental Organization) just like the Catholic Church.

          And where does one find “Babylon the Great”, according to the Watchtower before 1963, but on the back of the Scarlet Colored Wild Beast (U.N.).
          The G.B. can’t get their doctrine straight after 100 years, and you say they are Jehovah’s Organization? They’re a whore, just like the other religions that ride (support) the beast. They cannot follow their own admonition about refusing to support the U.N. or its activities.

          https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/oct/08/religion.world

          Lastly, Ricardo please realize that if this was Jehovah’s Organization with some kind of spiritual guidance from the Soverign Lord of the Universe it has been long removed, if they ever had it in the first place. This is a man made cult and calling it “Jehovah’s Organization” does not make it so.

          The child abuse problem is not the disease, the whole organization is diseased both physically, mentally and morally. What you see is just the ‘rash’ that has come out and Jehovah is removing this horrible pedophile protecting, U.N. joining, money grubbing cult in to the light of public opinion. And like the cockroaches they are they are scurrying for a dark corner to hide in; unsuccessfully it appears.

          When the nations do take the Watchtower to task and they change themselves to JW.org will they be the new and improved “Jehovah’s Organization”?

          Will the defunct W.B.T.S. be spoken of similar to C.T. Russell and followers as not being the faithful and Discrete Slave as the July 15, 2013 article has pointed out?

          • Ricardo says:

            Big B, yes, my apologies. Of course I would like to say ‘the organization teaching about Jehovah’ rather than ‘Jehovah’s organization’, but because I was talking to Ronald who says he is a witness, I put my words in ways easier for him to understand. I agree with your reasoning, however.

            Where are the witnesses who are pointing saying ‘shame, shame’? There is quite a strong undercurrent of protest among the witnesses. I know congregations where a large minority of the members are very unhappy with how the child abuse is being dealt with. Due to lack of any word from our GB, they have turned to the internet and found sites such as these, which has led them on to question other things. Really, the whole lot of them should be disfellowshipped for apostasy, but luckily the elders don’t know about it. If they were all disfellowshipped the congregation would probably be disbanded.

            There are some decent witnesses who are concerned. But you are correct in thinking that there are nowhere near the numbers that there should be.

        • concerned_jw says:

          At least one upside to this Ricardo, is that the organization is not technically using God’s “real” name, so perhaps his name is not literally being dragged into the mud as what you might think.

          Might have been a different story if Yahweh was used, but its not.

          Yes im still JW, although not ever baptized, but Im currently studying with a worldwide network of ex-jw’s and yes, im surprised to learn how many are doing this around the world.

          I think Watchtower would be very concerned if they knew the full extent that this reaches.

          I really dont know how long I can keep living a lie and going to the meetings, ive still got all my family and friends there, but at least I can still discuss the “hard” questions with the brothers which will ultimately start them off to critical thinking, yes this is working albeit slowly from other people’s experiences.

          As its well known here, there are many people high up in the ranks that are working undercover, as has been demonstrated with the leaks that have been released here.

          At the end of the day, the GB are not immune to the laws of the “worldly” governments and are still accountable for their actions, as even described in the bible itself! This goes for any religion for that matter, as we have already seen with other child sex abuse cases.

          If WT are truly Gods “chosen” organization, I for one would know that he would have never allowed this to happen.

          • Ricardo says:

            God would not allow this to happen. Correct. The organization claims that the elders are in Jesus’ right hand, meaning they are under his total control. How can we accept this? Jesus loved little children and would be horrified by what he sees the elders doing.

            Why does the GB make such exorbitant claims yet lacks the behaviour to back it up?

            As to God’s name, Yahweh also is not correct. Just what the correct pronunciation nobody knows. But in my study of English prose, I have seen book after book (even Somerset Maugham) where the name Jehovah is used to describe God. Nobody can deny that quite a variety of writers have used ‘Jehovah’ in their writing. Therefore, please excuse me if I follow a tradition already set in English literature by using God’s name in a form the common person may recognize and understand.

          • messenger says:

            @concerned-JW
            No one knows if God’s name is Yahweh. Vowels were taken from the Hebrew words Elohim and Adonai then they were inserted into the tetragrammaton. And unless that was due to providence then the vowels sounds could have been any combination of a, e, i, o, u. So, who knows the real name?

        • Ronald S. Ouellette says:

          Hi Ricardo.

          I don’t disagree with you and understand completely. I am not ignorant to what many other JWs think as many of us in my area see what is going on and hence, shame shame. I do realize the difference between being imperfect and incompetent. The point I was making was that they (GB) use one to cover up the other. Claiming to be imperfect and not inspired and not infallible as a cover up for being incompetent. It truly is a sad state of affairs and so many who even say: ‘if this is all wrong I don’t want to be right.’ Yeah, I have heard this from many since many don’t know what’s going on because it’s not broadcast from within the organization and many don’t want to look outside the organization for where things stand.

          Please enjoy your day and we are on the same team (not being JW but haing our eyes opened from the info provided by this site and such).

          Take care

          • Ricardo says:

            Thanks for the clarification, Ronald. Your points are certainly pertinent.

          • messenger says:

            I would agree that the very, very, huge majority of JWs have no idea of what’s really going on, nor do they have any idea of what really has gone on in past JW history. The message painted by the WT has always been a pretty picture, as any organization would paint of itself, that is not God directed.

            Remember that one of the proofs of the Bible’s authenticity, as claimed by WT, is the honest and candid history it presents, including some sinful actions from well respected characters. The WT never presents itself in such an honest way; so it is not just the sheep’s fault they do not know the real truth.

    • Judith says:

      Hello Ricardo,
      I have just joined this site and am commenting for the first time as I feel your pain and wish to assure you that I too and my husband understand and value your love for Jehovah’s name. I have loved Jehovah since I first learned about him at around 6 years of age. He has been with me every step of my life and I’m 53 now. (Aghhh! Time moves so quickly. I can’t believe that I’m that age now.)

      My husband and I were extremely zealous Witnesses until July 2015 when we discovered the great shame being brought on our God’s great name by the organisation that claimed to glorify it. Finding out about the heinous cover-up of pedophilia was ‘earth-shattering’! We had no idea! It was the most pain I’ve ever experienced. As someone who loved the house-to-house ministry, (I pioneered for 20 years) I would regularly raise the issue of pedophilia to help draw out people who were disillusioned with religion. Now I discovered that my own religion was no better – perhaps worse. My conscience would not allow me to represent the organisation anymore and so my husband and I left. We are not disfellowshipped nor disassociated – we just left. The local elders were furious and wanted to take action against us but we have done nothing scripturally wrong. We used the testimony of Terry O’Brien and Geoffrey Jackson given at the Australian Royal Commission as a basis for being allowed to leave. Both of these individuals (Terry O’Brien and Geoffrey Jackson) claimed that anyone can leave without ramifications. We all know that this, in practice, is not true but …. their testimony is there for referencing.

      Leaving was a complete act of faith. And oh how that faith has been rewarded!!! Ricardo, there are SO MANY things scripturally that we had wrong. When you read the bible without fear and allow it’s beautiful, simple and clear words to reach your heart, so many things make sense. Jesus said in Matthew 23:10 that, as Christians, we have only one Leader, the Christ. We are united by the holy spirit not by allegiance to a hierarchical arrangement.

      There are so many things that I’d love to share with you as my heart overflows with appreciation to Jehovah and to Jesus for what I have learned straight from the precious Word of God, the Bible. The really sad thing is that no one wants to hear it. I find that nearly everyone who leaves the organisation, leaves their faith as well. It is so painful to see, especially when I now know the wonderful truths that await those who continue to search after leaving – searching in God’s Word for themselves that is, and not abdicating their thinking ability to others.

      I was so overwhelmed when I left and overjoyed with the new things I was learning, I had to express them so made a simple website. Here is the URL. I wanted to have the words, ‘bible truth’ in the name and the extension .international was the only one I could find that suited so please don’t think I’m trying to start a religion or something. I just feel the need to share the wonderful things I’m learning.
      http://www.bibletruth.international/

      • Ricardo says:

        Judith, I read your experience. I, too, am in Australia so will probably track you down eventually by asking the right people, seeing as how you were so prominent.

        Our experiences are so similar. I loved the way you dealt with the judicial committee, you must have left those elders shell-shocked. A JC is not a pleasant experience, especially when you are wrongly accused or wrongly punished.

        I have given your site address to my group of heretics. I know one Australian brother among them who also has had a very very similar experience to you.

        I remember now when I too experienced what you did: I began to understand that Jehovah did not disapprove of me. These men did not represent Jehovah. How could they? They were liars and my God is the God of Truth.

        How strange that we both have been zealous pioneers, and yet we have both been badly treated by our leaders! And we both came to the realization that we can serve Jehovah without these tyrannical leaders.

        My switched on CO friend said: When the good sheep are treated as bad guys in our organization, it is quite obvious that something is seriously wrong.

        I am still in. Some day the elders will push me out as they tried to do to you. Until then I have quite a nice group of ‘Korahs’ to mix with. After the meetings we go to Maccas or a cafe and talk about all the ridiculous things we have heard in the meeting. And we protect one another from the elders.

        Give me some time to see more of your site. Hope to hear more from you in this site. Your experiences will be fantastic.

        • Judith says:

          Good morning Ricardo! Thank you so much for your reply here. I only found it this morning along with the other lovely replies too. It fills my heart with appreciation to receive such encouraging comments.

          It is wonderful that you have a little group who are using their thinking ability just as we are encouraged to do in PROVERBS 2. If and when you leave the organisation or are put out as you suggest is the most likely development, you will have a little group to meet with to read the bible. That’s what we did and continue to do with our best friend who also left at the same time as us. These get-togethers have been the most enjoyable meetings by far in our spiritual lives as we sit in peace in our home and read the beautiful words of our Father and let the holy spirit guide us rather than men. We have learned SO MUCH straight from the bible and wondered why we never saw it before. It is like the bible is a whole new book once you read it without the filter of organisational doctrine.

          It’s wonderful knowing that we can pray specifically for you and the others now rather than previously when we just prayed for the others we knew were out there but didn’t know personally.

          Knowing that you are all in Australia is a thrill too. Jehovah willing, we can meet someday. That would be lovely.

      • Bad Penny says:

        Dear Judith – Welcome!
        I too found myself in the same situation as you. I remember when the Catholic church was in the news for hiding child abuse and like you, I would bring it up in the ministry to try and establish that anyone in such a religion would not be pleasing to God. Of course, when I found that my own religion had been doing the same thing, my situation was untenable. In all good conscience I could not now try to persuade people that I had the truth. My husband and myself both left the org. I have been to your website and found it so encouraging to find someone who has continued to delve into the scriptures in search of real truth. So many ex-JWs seem to become agnostic or atheistic on leaving the org. I can understand it – we have nothing to do with any ‘religion’ now. We do, however, still try to maintain a faith in God. We too have found that without the influence of JWdom, the scriptures really do open up like never before.
        I found your comments on the memorial date for last year interesting as we too had discovered the same discrepancy. Research is ongoing, but it appears that the witnesses have always used the Nisan 14 date incorrectly. Jesus celebrated the last supper on the night before the Jewish Passover, after sundown, at the beginning of Nisan 14. By the evening of the 14th when the witnesses celebrate, Jesus would have already been put to death! After sundown on the 14th actually becomes the 15th! Check it out.
        Keep on knocking.

        • Judith says:

          Oh Penny! Your name should be ‘Good Penny’ not ‘Bad Penny’. I am thrilled to read replies here of those who are like-minded. I have looked many times all over the internet for ones who have left and still maintained their love and devotion to Jehovah and their diligence in searching the bible for guidance but I couldn’t find any. We have a best friend locally (we live in Tasmania) and the three of us (my husband and I and our friend) encourage each other in our new life and we also have two friends in NSW who left the organisation for the same reasons as us. They too were pioneers and actually were like spiritual mentors to me when I was young. I am so grateful that the spirituality I saw in them when I was young was, in fact, real as they have confronted the dreadful truths about the organisation and separated themselves but are still searching the scriptures as we are and you and others on this thread are doing too. It is incredible that we (the couple in NSW and us down here) find that the same scriptural thoughts are revealed to us at the same time. When we get on the phone to share a new scriptural thought we’ve discovered, we invariably say, “That’s exactly what we were talking about yesterday!” In the organisation, we used to brag that everyone around the world was studying the same material each week and this was proof of unity but now we can brag in the holy spirit. We end up studying the same information and we didn’t even know that the other was being guided to it. Yay! It’s so faith strengthening to experience the guidance of the holy spirit. It’s such a joy.

          If it’s fine by you Penny (of course I’m not sure that this is your real name ) I’m going to call you ‘Good Penny’. Thank you for you reply. I really appreciate it.

      • Ronald S. Ouellette says:

        Very well said.

        • Judith says:

          Hello Ronald. You remind me of my husband. He is a man of few words but, like you, is of the same mind and has the same love for truth. Thank you for commenting. It is such an encouragement to come here this morning and to find that there are others who share the same feelings as we do. It has been an answer to my prayer.

      • messenger says:

        Hi Judith,
        I just read your comment, and then glanced at your page. Don’t you find it interesting that we spent so much time reading the WT publications along with the Bible, but then, in such a short time, by reading the Bible by itself we have seen its message so much more accurately? Holy spirit!!!

        If you’ve been reading from this site for a while then no doubt you’ve discovered there are those who comment that still believe in God. They don’t claim that in most of their comments, so a new visitor may not be aware of it. I look forward to hearing from you more in the future.
        Ricardo and I still attend. I don’t fully support the org, neither does he. For a long time, years now, even before I discovered what I now know about the org I’ve only used the Bible in service. I still do and have always liked to teach the Bible. Today, with what I know, I can’t direct other people to the org, but I can share God’s real message with them.

        • Judith says:

          Hello messenger. What a joy to know that there are others out there who are allowing the holy spirit to lead them rather than men. It’s great to know that you are one of those in the little group that Ricardo spoke of. How encouraging that you have others locally to discuss things with.

          You are so right about reading the bible without WT publications. I was really a walking WT library. I knew all our beliefs inside and out and would be the one at meetings who would comment on the more complex teachings since I would study, study, study out of love for Jehovah and wanting to be the best I could be for Him. You can imagine how humbling it has been to find out that what I had been so diligently learning and teaching was ‘commands of men’ MATT 15:9. I feel an affinity with Saul of Tarsus. What a shock it must have been when he found out that his zeal was completely misplaced. What a comfort it is to know that our Father and his son look at hearts.

          Thank you for your reply.

      • ruthlee says:

        Hi Judith great writing and yes it is act of faith to leave so glad found your way out and faith intact. My reason for leaving was the UN scandal after being told it was the beast our naughty org got in bed with the beast and only came out from under the covers when found out. Like you I am saddened when people lose all faith and hope in god after their exit.However some of the points raised here have really made me think along new lines. So we now come from all schools of thought and that is healthy. Have a great life cheers Ruthlee

        • Judith says:

          Hello ruthlee,
          Yes. What a shock to find out about the UN! And the next big shock was to find out that hardly anyone in the organisation even cares!!! My whole family is ‘full-on’ in the organisation and they just overlook the UN situation. It’s crazy! It feels like I’m living in a dream sometimes. There is no logic, no truth to their thinking where they can condemn other religions for their affiliation with the UN and yet completely ignore their own. That has been a bigger shock to me then the organisation’s involvement. I am so grateful for the words in ROMANS 14:12, “So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.”

      • Meredith J says:

        Judith, your pain is the pain we all had to go through as we realised the stark truth that these men were frauds. Please let me assure you that it gets better. If you reach out to the true God and love Jesus there is nothing to fear. There is so much happening in the world today, that we have already been trained about. I am talking about Bible prophecy. If you can ask God to open up your eyes you will be able to see things in a different viewpoint and recognise that Jesus is at the door calling us to him. Really, we have been given freedom and we can still preach to people about Jesus without having to con them into joining a cult. Just preach with all your heart to those who are really interested in talking about God. It is so much easier than when I was a Witness. And may God bless you for starting your website. That is a courageous thing. I tell you the spiritual fight is on, but Jesus will back you up believe me. Covert Fade doesn’t like me talking like this as he sometimes moderates me, but people who are leaving need something else to hang onto. Read Christian websites that preach Bible prophecy. They are so enlightening. Of course discernment should be used but that is not hard when you have been a Witness.

      • Meredith J says:

        If you are really into Bible study and want a deeper meaning, then Judith I urge you to look at the King James Bible and you will find some things are really different compared to the New World Translation. King James is a very old version translated from Latin. The New World Translation is based on Westcot and Horte who were atheists. I would also suggest that you find out about the Illuminati. You may have heard about it. This is where the cults came from. There is some gobsmacking information out there that is for sure. We were so misled it is not funny. Now we need to let the real God show us the way and prayer is essential. We can still be the light of the world along with many other decent Christians who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses. That is what we have to accept too. We are Christians and not Jehovah’s Witnesses. That is a big step.

        • Judith says:

          Hi Meredith,
          Thank you so much for your lovely words. I have been using a variety of translations since leaving and it’s been so interesting finding that the New World Translation is lacking in many areas. In particular, I was disturbed to find that in the New Testament, the New World Translation has placed the name ‘Jehovah’ in many places where it is clearly talking about Jesus. What a shock that was to me!

          And yes, I love saying to people, “I am not affiliated with any organisation. I am a Christian.” It is amazing how many people are comfortable talking with me when they have the barrier of an organisation removed. The sad thing is though, people are still not interested in the beautiful good news but Jesus said in MATT 7:14 that only a few find the narrow road to life. Once again, we can only render an account for ourselves to God.

          • messenger says:

            Hmm yes they (WT) has been a little tricky. Another thing they eventually got around to doing in their revised translations of the NWT was to interpret a Greek word, when it is applied to Jesus as, “do obeisance, ” but when that Greek word is applied to others individuals, including Satan, they translate it as “worship.” The literal meaning of the word is that a person bends down to the ground -and if I remember correctly kisses it- before another. In the Bible there are 4 separate Greek words that were translated “worship.” This is the one that Bible writers used most often, that is to say huh 60-80% of the times worship is mentioned.

            As an aside, Jehovah’s Witnesses use to worship Christ and claimed that in their publications. Then sometime in the 1950’s they took another view. The view that it is naughty, naughty, naughty to worship Christ.

            Here’s an interesting thought:
            Christ said (and please don’t fault my wording-I usually shoot from the hip, that is from memory) “No one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to show him.” And again he said, “No one comes to the Son, unless he has been drawn by the Father.” So, we can understand why one of his disciples addressed Christ as, “My god,” possessing that type of relationship and authority.

        • messenger says:

          Hello Meredith… the main purpose for my response is to say Hi, hello, hello, hello!!!
          But now that I’m here a good translation of the Christian scriptures is ‘Eight Translation New Testament’, for it compares eight different translations side by side:
          Eight Translation New Testament includes all these[King James, The Living Bible, Phillips Modern English, Revised Standard Version, Today’s English Version, New International Version, Jerusalem Bible, New English Bible] by Tyndall House Publishers

          With it you can quickly cross check anything that is read very quickly with other translations. If I read something I want a deeper understanding of I do that and then look it up in the ‘The Interlinear Bible (Hebrew Greek English)’ Hendrickson Publishers

          Best wishes!!!

          • Meredith J says:

            Hi messenger and Judith again. It is fascinating to read stuff that we read before in a different light of other translations. I find it so refreshing.

            I have also had to rearrange my thinking on the Trinity, which I believed as a Catholic before I became a Witness. Jesus was always seen by the Witnesses as beneath God and yet when I read the account of Thomas where he felt the scars of Jesus when he saw him (I think this part of the Bible is conveniently left out of the New World Translation) and proclaimed “My Lord and my God”, Jesus never rebuked him for it. (John 20:28) All the best to you guys and may God bless you.

        • messenger says:

          @ Meredith
          It’s sad that though Christ wants his followers to be one, HIS words, like those at John10:30, have divided them. I heard a radio minister say that 86% of the people who believe in the trinity doctrine believe Christ and his father are separate individuals. If that’s so, then what are the largest points of contention concerning Christ’s position relative to mankind’s:

          1. In what way is Christ God?
          2. Should Christ be worshipped?
          hmmm, and let’s add another,
          3. Was Christ created?

          If some people believe the Bible too ambiguous on those points, or they come to a wrong understanding about them, an understanding that was not the intention of the Bible on one or more of those points, then does it make sense that they would be “damned to hell’ for all eternity for that reason?

          To me it doesn’t. For the reasons that some people have ridiculously slow comprehension rates, and the opinions of all of us are swayed by the opinions of other people.

          Yet both sides, the JWs and the ‘Christians’ use a persons belief on those points to declare if they are a ‘true Christian.’

      • Eyes opened says:

        Yes Judith following Christs teachings and reading the Bible ourselves, wonderful freedom indeed. Now it is so much easier to talk about the scriptures without having to do mental gymnastics to twist and turn WBTS teachings into shape. My husband and I can relate to so many of the comments being made.

        Regards

        • Judith says:

          Ha! I love your wording Eyes opened, “mental gymnastics”. It is so true! How can people believe in things like the overlapping generation and try and explain it to others? It truly is freedom knowing that it is not wrong to read it and let the holy spirit guide you. As Jesus said in JOHN 16:13, the holy spirit would guide us into all truth. Thank you for your comment.

          • messenger says:

            The WT’s narrative has been designed from their beginning to give them authority over everyone else on God’s Earth. In his letters Paul claimed that he ONLY preached the Christ. WT, since way before I got in, has preached about the anointed, and their trek through these last days, at least as much…buuut I believe much more than they preach the Christ. For what purpose… since the apostles didn’t do that?

      • Ejecting to Sanity says:

        So happy for you!

    • Joe says:

      I agree with Ricardo.. I too am a JW, but in USA. I feel the primary blame is on the Governing Body and USA branch. They are the decision makers. They decide our policies. I have also noticed we do NOT talk about this subject. I have never heard a talk or read an article about child sex abuse WITHIN our congregations. Nor have we EVER discussed what the policy is. It is a complete 100% blackout. We JW parents have no idea what the child protection policy is because not only do they not tell us, they do not ask our opinion. But according to the Scriptures they SHOULD: Proverbs 11:14 says ‘ in the multitude of counselors there is safety.’ I guess our opinion at the Kingdom Hall does not matter to them.

      • poky44055 says:

        @Joe
        I agree with you, I have thought several times that at the minimum, they should at least have an elder read a letter in the ministry school explaining something.
        That being said, I am not going to backlash at the GB or agree with them. If you truly believe that this is Jehovah’s organization, than you have to believe that in his time he will take care of it, “to the proper degree” (so you know that death is also a proper degree to Jehovah if he deems it.) He might let the governments handle it, he has done that also. and he has let them get rough at times. There are many spiritual reason why this could be happening, and perhaps we cannot see or understand what God sees and understands.

        If at the end of the day, God has nothing to do with it. This website, along with the victims, governments, Disfellowshipped people, JW haters, and anyone I missed are going to fry those M*#@*!F^*$#@S
        and we will have nothing else to worry about or hope for, but death!

        Mike

      • messenger says:

        Hi Joe…true I don’t ever remembering discussing any recommended policy in the hall regarding child molestation incidents. I believe the procedure they expect us to follow is to notify elders. That’s what WT expects publishers to do when discovering any sin they consider major.

        Most arguments here, like yours, are about what WT does once their reps the elders are notified. Their responses which are regulated through Bethel New York are what has been costing WT the big bucks in settlement costs and lost court cases.

        I have a friend, an elder, that sat in on a JC case involving child molestation in one of my congregations.The little he told me about the case I could tell he was disgusted, because essentially nothing was done to the molester. The molester is the grown son of another elder in the same congregation. I’m pretty sure my friend observed proper WT procedure while participating on the JC, for he had discovered a previous cover up of a major sin by elders regarding another issue involving the same brother, and he threw them under the bus with the CO for that. I’m sure he would have done it again if they didn’t follow WT procedure. At this point my friend will no longer serve as an elder. The molester escaped justice, both from inside the hall and from the civil authorities who were not notified.

  2. sirius says:

    drip, drip,… drip. Eventually there will be a flood! WT’s legal counsel must be spinning at losing a narrative that is feeble from the source.

    dogstar

  3. Eyes opened says:

    Good article. This is a public safety issue and a criminal issue. WBTS is knowingly and willingly harboring known criminals. If WBTS were truly representing God and if this organization were truly being used by God would they really continue down this path? I think not. The scriptures have shown that true servants of God receive and accept discipline. True servants would not think they are above everything, including the legal system that serves as God’s ministers according to WBTS. These men continue to prove they think they are above the law and thereby above God himself. God would have to care about this organization before he would be concerned with his name being dragged through the mud. The conduct of the GB and other leadership within make it evident God’s holy spirit has no effect on them. I have faded but I certainly understand the challenge of separating God from this religion. They are not synonymous and with that realization it’s much easier to move on. It becomes much easier to see that these men do indeed have an agenda but honoring God has nothing to do with it. It’s power, control and ultimately money. The veil needs to be removed and here’s hoping the courts and the media do it.

    Regards

  4. Jado says:

    This is a data collecting organization. On this picture http://wol.jw.org/rw/wol/mp/r127/lp-yw/jr/2011/83 , the woman (JW) is 90% giving data on the number of sex sha has had and estimates of penises she has seen. See how she is crying! She does it with pleasure and give back collected data in pain.

    I sometimes wonder how this religions has subtly and unethically collect data on humans. “Today’s obsession with sex still produces “attraction junkies,” ‘serial polygamists,’ and “sexual predators,”” (g97 6/8 p. 4).

    My experience with this religion is painful. In one of the congregation in the west of my country, a judiciary committee summoned me and the Elders asked me, about one woman in the congregation, “Has sister …. given you her vulva”! That’s when I realized the religion is about collecting data on humans.

    • Ricardo says:

      Jado, this is one of the most bizarre posts I have seen on this site.

      I wonder what other fascinating things you have experienced.

      • Jado says:

        @Ricardo, “Awake!”

        I am fascinated with Math! Watchtower 2013 says:
        “Many people seem to feel that math (or, maths) is boring and unrelated to their everyday life. Do you feel that way? Let us examine how useful, accessible, and fascinating math can be.” (g03 5/22 p. 21; http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102003366?q=%22fascinating+math%22&p=par )!

        Answer this question: “Why Did the Holocaust Happen? Why Didn’t God Stop It?” from jw.org I will tell you if math can fascinate you or not.

        • Ricardo says:

          Jado, you know your way around jw.org really well. Do you find it intruiging? I try not to look at that site too much. If you go there too much it does something to your mind, kills brain cells.

  5. Destroy this WT and the GB will rebuild it lol. says:

    You can complain all you want.. they can BAN all they want.. Liquidate and arrest all they want.. JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES cannot be ELIMINATED nor their TEACHINGS or their WORK!

    So keep complaining, whining and crying.. we are UNSTOPPABLE

    Keep hope ALIVEEE✊

    • Jado says:

      Are you a woman or a man! Yes, I agree with you! By the way, who can stop “SEX”! When I learnt the meaning of the name “JAH-HOVAH” (http://brazilweirdnews.blogspot.com/2012/04/jah-hovah-hermaphrodite-god-of-jews.html) I realized that “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES cannot be ELIMINATED”!

      Jehovah’s Witness are “taking advantage of human fascination with sex” ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102003330?q=%28Fascination+sex%29&p=par )!

      Suppress “Sex Drive”, “Jehovah” and his followers will absolutely fall like “Babylon”!

      • Summer says:

        Au Contraire Contaire …… you will go down, you are a false religion. You will be one of the FIRST to go down !!!!

      • messenger says:

        Interesting slant you have. I was told by an elder who is a close friend of mine, and someone that has worked very closely with COs, and has been a member of special judicial committees, that some JWs are the people that started internet porn. He sincerely believes that. I don’t know where he heard that from; I didn’t ask him, because I thought that statement was ridiculous. But, someone had to start it.

    • Srecko Sostar says:

      It looks very clear that you care more about “image” of your corporation than about innocent victims inside that same corporation.
      Recommend deep self inspection of your heart and mind (conscious).
      Otherwise GB teachings will “eliminate” that little humanity what is left inside you.
      No hard feeling!

    • Covert Fade says:

      Would you like to address any of the specific points raised in the Times article? The lists of unreported child abusers (1006 since 1950 in Australia alone)? The two witness rule? Do you have any actual arguments and data to bring to the discussion or are you determined to act like an uneducated child?

    • Ricardo says:

      You may be correct that Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be eliminated. But we can be shamed. We can feel sorry for the victims. We can wish for the sins of our organization to be acknowledged and apologies given.

      We can feel sorry for Jehovah, for the shame we are bringing to him, when really there doesn’t need to be any shame if the GB (the faithful and DISCREET slave) would discreetly be responsible.

      We will be the ones crying in the end. And we stoppable- look at the decrease in Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Certainly not the look of success. Maybe due to our lack of humility, do you think?

      • messenger says:

        A faithful and discreet slave of Christ would never have claimed false dates-multiple times- for Armageddon’s arrival, and then claim those proclamations were good, because they kept sheep alert and on the watch. “they claim what is bad good, and what is good as bad.” One reason for lost souls, to answer Judith’s concern, is that when folks are raised in a religion that is a lie, then some associate the concept of God with that lie, or at least how they fell about being deceived is associated with how they feel about God-as Tony Robbins’ psychological pedagogy reveals. Also, many of those people still equate WT teachings with Bible teachings, even the WT ones that are false. Christ words are true that men would come to lead sheep after themselves and to plunder them. That’s what those that defend the WT here are defending. So hard to wake these guys up. Doesn’t it seem that since they are here they would see some truth?

  6. Ted says:

    As stated this goes beyond being an internal JW problem
    “This is a wider public safety issue” The particular work they
    do provides a reason for them to knock on strangers doors
    and engage with families.

    These unsavoury characters (Pedo’s) are cunning and know
    who to target, female single parents for example. The parent is
    groomed, beguiled by an apparently God fearing person, and
    so will confidently allow their children to be alone with them.

    Such a case occurred in in the area where I live, in W, Yorkshire,
    a brother from my former cong, was trusted and allowed to
    study alone with the 14 year old daughter of the family. He
    sexually molested the girl and was successfully prosecuted
    for it.

    Had it been left to cong, he would have gotten away with it
    due to their archaic and totally inappropriate rules,which they
    stubbornly stick to.

  7. ScotWm says:

    Wow! It’s time for self-anointed Watchtower Governing Body member Stephen Lett to make another “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” video in defence of Watchtower’s PPP (Pedophile Protection Policies). http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/stephen-lett-slams-apostate-driven-lies-and-dishonesties-concerning-child-abuse-record

  8. Ted says:

    Person with the long Id who thinks the gb is unstoppable.
    Look out the iron chariots are coming, Judges 1:19.

    Anyway, no more responses from me, it’s obvious you’re
    indifferent to the suffering of little children and are just
    trying to hi jack the discussion.

    a

  9. Peggy says:

    Thank you again Covert for another update on the scandal.I hope many people read the report from the Times article! With greater publicity of this problem with in the organization it will not be able to escape the spot light.

  10. Jado says:

    In my African thinking, I thought Europe differently! I thought it was a continent of bright people “Grand Children” of Isaac Newton, Galileo, Mercedes Benz, g03 8/22 p. 27 “Russian physiologist Ivan Pavlov, “the Russian chemist Dmitry Mendeleyev” (g03 8/22 p. 27), William Shakespear and all these Geniuses who have “fascinated” my thinking! I thought they were “gods” who have illuminated the world with “science”!

    You can now how painful I feel when I see this: https://assetsnffrgf-a.akamaihd.net/assets/m/502017712/univ/art/502017712_univ_pnr_lg.jpg !

    I think I am not offending anyone but cannot help asking this question: “Who will save “Europe”? Will Europe save its children? (http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/CmpuU00WcAAlblQ-vi.jpg) ! Let us hope so!

    If I was asked to pray an Invisible

  11. The Modeller says:

    I’d like to see all elders and Ministerial Servants DBS checked. No, they aren’t obliged to, but it would help their case. It wouldn’t cost WT anything, so why don’t they do it?

    • Jaime says:

      The Modeller,
      It is telling that elders and ministerial servants do not do criminal background checks. I have heard at least one Youtuber suggest that the reason they changed the name of the Theocratic Ministry School to Christian Life and Ministry with Apply Yourself to the Ministry is to AVOID those DBS/Background checks. The reason was to take the word SCHOOL out. In Britain if you are teaching at any school a DBS is required, right? They could easily make those guys pay for and do those checks. Clearly, they are afraid of what would be exposed.
      To give credit where credit is due, I think it was Louise Goode that had that thought.
      Thank you again Covert, and peace to all.

      • Peggy says:

        @Jaime, That would make perfect sense for them to avoid the backbround checks now that they are NOT teaching ministry school.

        • Jaime says:

          Yes, but it is just a name. They still use the word school in comments, and in trying to get people to join. They do not say “why don’t you join the Apply Yourself to the Ministry”? They say “why don’t you join the school”?
          Maybe you are being sarcastic and I’m not getting it.
          They are so slippery.

          • messenger says:

            It’s true public school teachers, and other teachers, like a guitar teacher working for a city must get Dept of Justice checks in the USA. Although the same teacher teaching at a Music studio would not be required to.

            That would help to lower incidents of molesters who are servants, but it doesn’t change the other policies causing them to get in trouble.

  12. ruthlee says:

    I understand the gb have every right to contest any accusation and fight their corner with their legal team . That seems like sound use of dedicated funds and could even be plausible. However what happened to when someone sees a brother take a false step,… isn’t it up to the brother erring to correct his step. It is a sad plight of these arrogant men that their error has been pointed out by many people over the years from the victims to concerned elders that have served under such horrible conditions. Does it really take worldly courts of justice to bring these men to book? It takes worldly establishments to “correct” them in their flawed thinking and wrongful policies. This is not just the tide of opinion turning as to the damage of sex with children, it is not just a fashion made up by a psychologist We know it blights people for life. It seems the worldly justice system will have to enforce the law and exact punitive damages to stop Jehovah’s witnesses from resisting to comply. They won’t listen to a brother or Jehovah or their collective conscience. so will suffer the consequences. And when they are weeping into their shiny grey bibles wondering why this happened and what went wrong many will say “well you were warned”. No one will proudly boast of being a j witness when this huge bag of faecal matter hits the fan. Ruthlee

    • Ricardo says:

      I totally agree, Ruthlee. What an outrage! If these men of the GB do care about the victims, they have a funny way of showing it. I think only one of these guys has children. Maybe they are so isolated from the community they have no idea of the anger growing in both the witness and non-witness camps due to their inaction.

    • messenger says:

      Have you heard of, “take the money and run?” Or, paradise in the woods, lakeside. The money is what will prevent them from being totally wiped out, that and the fact they already have millions of followers they pretty much keep in the dark. Their production cost diminish as everything goes online. They’re positioning themselves to survive huge losses and still live, ON THE LAKE.

      • Ricardo says:

        If this is truly what their plan is, that is really really pitiful. I keep telling my inward self that it can’t be true, yet I can’t see them doing anything that a loving body of men should be doing to fix things up. It can’t be true, yet all of their actions seem to pointing in that direction.

        This is mental! It’s as if these GB guys are trying to wreck things for themselves. Has there ever been a stupider way to deal with a crisis than to close eyes and hope the problem will go away?

        • messenger says:

          All people at the top of organizations are like Gods. They don’t think like the average person that is working and following someone else’s rules. The difference is they don’t answer to anyone, they don’t think about “getting in trouble” so their whole way of thinking, which also effects their behavior, is different than the common man’s. Add to that position billions of dollars in assets, and this is what is produced. True, if they were directed by God, and followed that direction it would be better. But they don’t, they are imperfect men-their published excuse- that act unethically, like so many others who have a chance to, because they don’t have to answer to anyone. Same as any typical corporate corruption.

  13. WideAwake says:

    The sad fact is that most rank and file JW’s have no clue what is going on.
    They are warned by the GB not to watch or read anything negative about their religion.
    And of course, “apostate”sites are a big no no.
    Why? Because the GB can’t have the sheeple thinking for themselves. Also the Borg keeps them so busy reading the Watchtower propaganda and wasting their personal time trying to recruit the unsuspecting. JW.BORG is all about Power, Control and Money and their precious reputation.
    If Jesus were on the earth today the GB would have him disfellowshipped! Why? For causing “dissension among the brothers” and wearing a beard!
    My JW sister and her emotionally, abusive alcoholic Elder husband only read the watchtower magazines, and books. And of course the emotionally manipulative videos that induce fear, shame and guilt. They do not have one book in their house! I have never seen them watch Nova, Nature or anything that might cause them to question this poisonous religion.

    • Bad Penny says:

      You are right WideAwake – the majority keep the blinkers on. Blind follow the blind, both will fall into the pit.
      I hope that articles like this, in a respected newspaper, will have some success in opening a few eyes to the deception, at least it may make more people not open their doors to the pedo protecting cult!

  14. Jado says:

    I long for a day when Europe will be free to give its children time to use their brain once again. The news I here from there is so painful. How can the world prosper once again when “Europe’s brain” is being destroyed? ( https://christogenea.org/system/files/resources/GirlRapeUK.jpg )!

    I cry for Europe! Surely, we need another “Renaissance Europe” to free us from “Stupidity” and Bible’s Myths like what I read in g82 2/8 p. 13 (a JW Publication):

    “From Shem came the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Jews and the Arabs who vary from fair to light-brown skin. The descendants of Japheth, who include the Indo-European races, vary from light skin to dark brown. As for Ham (meaning swarthy or sun-burnt), some, but not all, of his descendants had dark skin. The Egyptians, with light-brown skin, descended from Ham’s son Mizraim. Ham’s son Canaan, who was cursed by God because of bad conduct, was the forefather of the light-skinned Canaanites.”

    • Ricardo says:

      Jado, I think you have a hang-up about Europeans.

      Try to concentrate on your hang-ups for a group of 7 men in the USA who are doing very little about child abuse (or any other abuse for that matter) in their organization of 8 million witnesses.

      • Jado says:

        I am afraid you ignore their Bible allow them to kill and rape the children! Will you kind read Numbers 31:14-18 to understand that (Online: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=Numbers+31%3A14-18 )!

        Every single book, every single chapter, every single page of the Bible, every single verse has a deep meaning. Failing to interpret it is like a chameleon failing to interpret its surrounding environment. It will inevitably disappear.

  15. dee2 says:

    Mike,

    “1)………Dependent on how far Jehovah will let him go. Remember Job this is no different.”

    Mike,
    Who is Job in this case?

    “1) Satan plays a row in this. “as god of this system of things” he has full control even in Jehovah’s organization.”

    Wonder how Satan became the
    “god of this system of things”?

    Would it have anything to do with the fact that God cleansed the heavens to protect his spiritual family by sending the demons down to the earth (Revelation 12:7-12)? It was important for God to get rid of these pesky demons from heaven but then he gave them to mankind to deal with and we now have to fight them. !FTW

    • Jado says:

      Who created “Satan” myths? That’s the question critical thinkers should answer. Some argue that Satan had sex with Eve to produce what they call “The Serpent’s Seed” depending on their interest and forget that “God” (Jehovah?) had to had sex with Mary to produce “the Woman’s seed” who would crash the Head of the Serpent (Read Genesis 3)!!!!!

      I think humans are more fascinated with tales than reason, more fascinated by the Bible than Science! That’s the reason why our beautiful Planet is in danger.

  16. Hardy says:

    I’m ready for a new subject. We keep reading over and over again about the same thing. Let’s talk about something new, like the broo ha ha going on right now over current lessons being studied in this month’s book study part of the meeting.

    • Ricardo says:

      Yes, we could talk about the book study. About Bro. Rutherford’s first radio broadcast: Millions Now Living Will Never Die. I wish the name of that talk had been changed.

      And maybe we can appreciate the attitude of the brothers mentioned in paragraph 14: If the Lord sees fit to build other radio stations for the spreading of the truth, he will provide the money in his own good way.

      What a good attitude! Rather than building a new project and then begging for donations the way the current GB has, the brothers then waited for the money to come in, they relied fully on Jehovah.

      A brother in my cong said you can see Jehovah’s hand because when they closed the Canadian radio stations, the Chicago station could still transmit into Canada. Funny, isn’t it, that I thought if Jehovah’s hand was in the matter then the Canadian stations wouldn’t have been closed. And if Chicago station could broadcast into Canada anyway, wasn’t it a waste of money to have the 4 stations unnecessarily in Canada?

      And the brother finished off with: In the words of Bro. Jackson, ‘Jehovah has style’.

      Jehovah might have style, but Bro. Jackson’s performance at the Australian Royal Commission was certainly lacking in style. It was embarrassing and disgusting. And as the story above is showing, our organization is certainly lacking in style, but not in cowardism to show responsibility.

      How was that? That’s basically a summary we had among the brothers in Maccas after the meeting. Did you enjoy that Hardy?

      • outandabout says:

        Well, Ricardo, it seems you have well and truly woken up to them. So you’re staying in to help from the inside? Good on you.

        I’m not sure, but have you realized the two important things this scandal has shown and why they so desperately tried to keep it secret.

        These two things are at the absolute pinnacle of WT’s list of whats important to them. There is absolutely nothing more important to them and they sit side by side.
        Money – obviously they don’t want to be sent broke with the payouts
        Power – once the news breaks, there goes their claim to being gods visible organisation and the only ones dispensing truth. The scam starts to unravel. Millions in the Western world could wake up, walk out and speak up, further inflaming the scandal and also taking their high value money with them and creating a double whammy.
        They lose their money in the courts and they lose the power they have over Witnesses to extract further money.
        They’ll pull out all stops to prevent that. They’ll lie and cheat and throw whoever they have to under the bus because they have nothing to lose.

        Don’t ever be afraid of them because the only power they have over you is the power you allow them to have. Once they lose that power, they’re just nobody’s.

        You may have realized all this, but just in case….

        One other thing…..the Catholic church in this country has reported an alarming decline in church attendance. Their child abuse?

        • Ricardo says:

          @outandabout, from a study of the Youtube videos of Witnesses saying goodbye, I can see the enormous effect the child abuse scandals are having on the long-time witnesses. The main thing that has woken them up is the reports of child abuse, as well it should. We have been quite proud to point out to Catholics in the past the hypocrisy in their church with regard to child abuse. The GB spoke so confidently that the proof of false religion can be seen. Never did we imagine the GB could mess things up so badly.

          The JW’s with any decency are feeling very bad about what has happened in our org. We have lost some of the best JW’s from our congregation, those who couldn’t be hypocrites.

          What a loss! And there are many more. I know so many who are ready to slacken off. Once the Australian RC hands down their judgement and punishment more witnesses will leave or cool down for a while.

          What fools the GB are proving to be. Discreet? I think not.

          • messenger says:

            Ricardo you guys don’t have too many JW’s in your country…what is it something like 60,000? To bring a corporation down it could take a sudden loss of about 20% of their revenue, and you guys don’t provide nearly 20% of WT’s money. I bring this out because as others here believe I think a lot of their responses to child abuse are based on lost revenue. If what happened in Australia with the RC happened in the USA then the WT might have change its policies a lot quicker. They’ve proven money is their guide by breaking the law, and continuing to break it on a daily basis. Look at Cedars ticker measuring their obstinate response. WT knows millions of people are noticing their actions, so if they valued their reputation more than their money they would not violate the law so egregiously.

          • Meredith J says:

            Ricardo, a couple of years ago, there was a tv program done on Spanish tv. One of the governing body members stated to the audience that when the press get nosy, they just use their weapon of silence and the story usually goes away. That is their solution to child abuse. Just don’t talk about it and eventually it will go away. Very very bad.

          • Ricardo says:

            Meredith, this is insane! The child abuse victims’ victories are just starting. For the next decade there will be further victories and class actions by the victims, Watchtower will have huge compensation payments, and JW members will be in chaos with no explanation from our leadership about why they aren’t doing anything.

            Silence can work for a while. But eventually you lose trust, and when it starts impacting the average witness who has lost confidence, then it’s self-destructive.

    • messenger says:

      @ Hardy,
      I never study the lessons in advance, and often read other parts of the mags or the Bible during the lessons, but my memory is pretty good , so let me see what I can add.

      What about the hypocritical crap they were teaching about historical Christianity in that last WT lesson. Everything they were condemning so called Christendom for is exactly what WT does. I can’t understand how everyone in the audience that is 10 years old or older could not see that. But from the comments at the Hall it doesn’t seem like they do. I can’t comment, because I can’t agree with such falsehood, and you know what would happen if my comments revealed the truth.

      The facts are that in our org there are clergy/laity classes. If you openly contradict or critisize the clergy class you will be puuunished. In our org if you just read the Bible without WT input you will probably reach different conclusions about what the Bible really says.

      To sit in the meeting, look around, hear the comments, and notice that apparently no one else there realizes the WT is describing itself when condemning Christendom is sooo weird, and boring. But then again do others see the obvious, because many do not comment as I don’t?

      • Ricardo says:

        @messenger, in one congregation I visit, there are several brothers like you who are aware of the rubbish but who sit there and keep quiet. After the meeting we get together and have a great discussion of the nonsense presented. In this smallish group we are in our spiritual paradise: it is a really great feeling to know that others can see through it. I wish you could find such a group.

        However, in the congregation I’m in at present most members are like nodding robots. Only a small number of people answer. I often wonder why, but maybe those who don’t answer, like you say, think it’s rubbish and so just keep quiet. Even so, there are a number of us Korahs who get together at Maccas after the meeting.

        Have you found nobody willing to question things in your congregation?

        • messenger says:

          I don’t talk to congregation members about these things Ricardo. The statements I mentioned in previous posts about certain comments I heard from elders were made by hard core believers in the WT. Their statements exposed the sins of individuals and groups, even elder groups, but they never expressed any doubts against the GB or WT.

          Most of the time I hardly associate with JWs outside the hall. My first wife died several years ago; I recently remarried, and when I say anything at all negative against the ‘Truth’ to my new wife she thinks I’m arguing, and doesn’t want to hear it, so I’ve never exposed her to most of the info I’ve shared here. She does agree that many elders are dirty, because she’s heard a lot about that from her friends.

          My grown children live with me, and they all knew the organization was faulty long before I did, so I can talk to them, and I sometimes do. For instance, I told one of my sons about you, and that the crap elders pull by not to calling on certain publishers has traveled all around the world and is even being done in Australia, as you said it’s happened to you. We live in the USA. My children (grown) are all inactive… not disfellowshipped or disassociated, but definitely they are no longer Witnesses, though they were all baptized as Witnesses.

          • Ricardo says:

            @messenger, at least you have a family of heretics you can talk to. My brother the COBE keeps away from me because we argue about anything theocratic. I talk to him about the bullying, and he says it’s my fault. I tell him the witnesses will soon be having a worldwide decrease and he says: No. The witnesses will continue to go from glory to glory. So I tell him he’s got his head in the manure and he tells me I’m delusional.

            So strange that 2 witness brothers can’t get on due to the truth. (double meaning there, doubly )

            I have just been meeting witness friends down at Coffee Club. We talked about the child abuse happening and whether the GB is actually trying to wreck the organization. It’s nice to have a group of witnesses, some of whom still think this is the truth, who can see the point and are shocked by what the GB is doing. It’s my version of spiritual paradise: have a coffee and talk about if we could understand the Bible better without the confusion of the GB, with friends after their meeting.

        • Tammy says:

          I just don’t know who is the true cong. Then? What other religion has elders ms, and morals of jehovahs witnesses. The Bible claims that there is one true religion, right eph. 4:4

          • Ricardo says:

            @Tammy, what other religion has elders who mentally, emotionally and at times sexually abuse the members of the church? Which other religion has a leadership who refuse to do virtually anything to change the arrangements they put in place, to stop the child abuse taking place? Which other church has a group of elders who have such high morals that they regularly lie and even forge letters from the Governing Body, and yet get away with impunity because the elders and CO stick up for one another? I will admit that the typical witness does seem to have a higher standard of morality than our elders.

            At Eph 4:4 it does not mention religion. There is a mention of one hope and then one faith. What is the faith that the Bible as well as JW’s teach? That salvation is dependent on faith in Jesus sacrifice, obedience to God’s commands, and that Jesus as head of God’s kingdom will fix up conditions on the earth. (Some may want to disagree that anything will happen to the earth, but Jesus must have meant something at Matt 5:5).

            There is no mention of salvation being dependent on belonging to an organization that is going to ruin your life and continually abuse you mentally and emotionally (knowingly, and yet being resistant to change).

            In the end it will come down to our relationship with Jehovah, how good are we as Christians. Some of us are starting that already because we have found the spiritual paradise to really be a fool’s paradise which we find it hard to bear.

          • messenger says:

            @ Tammy

            Hello Tammy. Look up Matt 16:18. In the last part Christ stated, “I will build my congregation, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”

            Church means congregation of people that are associated together in a Christian religion. The WT claims that Christ’s church turned apostate after the first century, but then some 1800 years latter it was resurrected again as WT. Because WT= Christ’s church. If that happened, then did “the gates of Hades overpower Christ’s church for 1800 years…with the church just containing a mere remnant of true Christians who believed different doctrine but were joined members and thus part of apostasy? Is that a Bible teaching or a WT teaching?

            The Bible says in the last days many will fall away…that wolves would enter the church, that sects would arise, etc, and even Christ said those things. But look again at Matt 16:18. Despite the arrival of the aforementioned bad Christians it has always been Christ’s church. He didn’t say for most of the time after its birth it would cease to exist and need a resurrection shortly before the world’s end.

            Not every belief about Bible doctrine is a salvation issue as presented by WT.
            WT claims if you don’t agree with______ WT can’t baptized you, you aren’t saved, and if you’re one of us and don’t believe in_____ then we must kick you out. You fill in the blanks. Is all that Christian?

      • Ricardo says:

        @ messenger, if you don’t study the articles yourself before the meeting then you are set for a real beauty this weekend. Did the Bible Students lose their zeal during WWI? Last year: yes, they were hopeless fellows. This year: no, they were highly motivated preachers.

        And there’s more. Much more.

        Even my sub-conscious mind (which operates when my real mind switches off to cope with the usual nonsense and enjoy the air-con) cannot cope with this.

        I hope it doesn’t trigger a rush to the rest room to vomit. All the best for this weekend’s meeting.

        • messenger says:

          All we need to know is what the man on the cross or stake next to Christ knew…”Remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

          Everything else there is for folks who claim to be academics and Bible scholars to argue over, and to point their fingers at each other over, and for us to read to enjoy, and to give nonbelievers logical reasons for the decision they’ve made. But you already know enough.

    • Caroline says:

      Hardy, what are they studying? I am very curious.

    • ruthlee says:

      Which window washing Hardy are you? just curious

  17. twistedsister69 says:

    I’m not a big fan of the “wait and see” attitude. How many abuse victims have there been in the last 60 years? How many are abused each month while the JW rank-and-file parrots, “Wait & see – leave it in the desert god’s hands”?
    As for “…Dependent on how far Jehovah will let him go. Remember Job this is no different.
    2) It is dependent on his time. As God almighty if he wishes for nothing to be done. Than nothing will be done.” – I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again – I have personally never met God. I have never met anyone who has met God. So don’t expect me to equate “Jehovah” with God Almighty. Just because some obsessive-compulsive ritualistic Bronze-Age tribe of sun-stroked desert-wandering devil worshippers got it into their scientifically-illiterate skulls that “Jehovah”/”Yahweh” was the One True God and Creator of All Things (that is, when they weren’t dancing around a fire offering up human sacrifices to Dagon, Molech, or Baal), does NOT mean I have to buy it.

  18. Jado says:

    That’s the war Bible vs Science.
    g00 5/8 p. 28 igira iti “If fame is having a book written about you, . . . Jesus Christ remains the most famous figure in the modern world,” says the British newspaper The Guardian. Research on the books in the Library of Congress, in Washington, D.C., revealed 17,239 books about Jesus. That was almost twice as many as those written about William Shakespeare, who occupied second place with 9,801 books. Vladimir Lenin came in third with 4,492, followed by Abraham Lincoln, who had 4,378 books written about him, and Napoléon I, with 4,007. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was in seventh place, with 3,595 books, and was the only woman in the top 30. Joan of Arc, the next closest woman, had 545 books written about her. As for composers, Richard Wagner led the list, followed by Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Picasso heads the list of painters, ahead of Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo. However, Leonardo heads the list of scientists and inventors, beating Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, and Galileo Galilei. “There is no living person in the top 30,” says The Guardian.

    • messenger says:

      Nice research Jado. Although Christ being on top is an easy given. I’m surprised Wagner beat out both Mozart and Beethoven. Wagner was a great composer, but he was also an expressed racial bigot. If Wagner accepted the “Truth” and became an elder or another higher ranking member, then he probably would have been a dictatorial abuser of Witnesses.

      Remember our calendar years are set because of Christ. He’ll always hold the top spot.

  19. Bad Penny says:

    Back to Kathleen Hallisey’s excellent article –
    I found it interesting that she put Jehovah’s witnesses child abuse scandal on a par with the Savile case.
    Jimmy Savile actually visited the serial killer Peter Sutcliffe (who is now a JW) whilst in prison. They appeared to be very ‘matey’. Could they have both been members of a very ‘secret society’?
    The rabbit hole goes deep.
    It appears that Jehovah’s witnesses are not only concealing abusers, they are also recruiting them! The child abuser and killer Rose West has also joined their ranks. Imagine if she was ever to be released – imagine the joy at the local KH!

  20. Ted says:

    twisted sister, An accurate description of Bronze Age
    mentality and their psycho God. Strange how he just
    hated all the tribes the Israelites hated and whose land
    they wanted.

    Strange how JWs have the same mentality today!
    Jehovah/Yahweh hates all non JWs and is planning
    a Moses/Joshua type blood bath of young and old
    men, women, and infants.

  21. WideAwake says:

    What I find strange is that this “loving” god Jah according to JW.ORG doctrine will destroy to date around 8 BILLION men, women and children.
    I asked my deluded mother this question: “What is the difference between Jehovah and Satan? They’re both, according to the Watchtower, mass murderers.”
    She gave me the lame answer that parents are “responsible for their children” and God wasn’t accountable, the parents are.
    She also told me I shouldn’t throw the “baby out with the bathwater” Really? What a stupid metaphor!
    When these good, elitist JW’s envison their wonderful paradise ( we’ve all seen the pictures of smiling people holding baskets of nice red, ripe tomatoes). Do they stop and think about the mountains of dead infants and children nourishing their “new system soil?” Every time they envision biting into a nice ripe tomato do they think of the rivers of blood, that according to the Watchtower, grew that tomato?
    I have heard talks from brothers at conventions that I found sickening and evil. Why? Because they were so gleeful about the coming destruction that they personally couldn’t wait to bury the children and infants, along with their parents.
    Perhaps they have plans in place for using the Grand Canyon as a graveyard?
    This carrot and stick religion disgusts me.

    • twistedsister69 says:

      “Become a Jehovah’s Witness — You too can look forward to a front row seat at your own personal Holocaust!”

    • twistedsister69 says:

      I get a kick out of the Bible. The Old Testament is full of atrocities and genocides, not just condoned, but COMMANDED by the desert god “Yahweh”, then, flip one page into the New Testament, and all of a sudden he’s a god of LOVE, MERCY, and FORGIVENESS.
      WHAT A FLAMING FARCE!!! 😀 😀 😀

      • dee2 says:

        God certainly has some endearing qualities doesn’t he?

        – The Fall in the Garden of Eden:

        Though God could easily have forgiven Adam and Eve for the minor transgression they had committed (eating a fruit, after all, is hardly a terrible crime in and of itself), he instead reacted by expelling them from Paradise and condemning them and all their descendants to a life of toil, suffering and death.

        Yet this is the God that commands us to forgive our brother seventy times seven times (Matthew 18:21-2).

        – The census taken by David:

        “And David’s heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly…. So Gad [a prophet of God] came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days’ pestilence in thy land? …. So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.” —2 Samuel 24:10-15

        Though David had committed a sin (and again, not one that was inherently harmful to anyone; it was only a sin because it displeased God), he realized his mistake, repented and pleaded for forgiveness. Did God respond by showing him mercy? No. Instead, he ignored David’s pleas and sent a plague that killed 70,000 INNOCENT people – so David didn’t even pay the price for his own sin, innocent people did.

        Yet this is the God that commands us to forgive our brother seventy times seven times (Matthew 18:21-2).

        • twistedsister69 says:

          To touch on the “Garden of Eatin'” myth – ever watch that old show Mythbusters? – Well, I would like to BUST one of the BIGGEST MYTHS in all of HISTORY right here and now – a myth propagated by the ‘Big Three’ Old Testament-based religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam – the LIE that there is something intrinsically wrong with us all, that we have all “inherited” some kind of defect or character flaw. That we are all “imperfect”. WTF does that even mean??? To use the famous (or infamous) WT analogy: A bread pan that is dented (i.e. “Adam” and “Eve”) will only produce dented loaves of bread. First of all, I AM NOT A LOAF OF BREAD. Second of all, if u’re gonna say that we’re all “imperfect”, then please DEFINE “PERFECTION” for me, so I’ll at least have a frame of reference, and will be able to understand WTF u’re talking about! Each day, we (hopefully) learn more and grow, so today I’m more “perfect” than I was yesterday, just as tomorrow I’ll be more “perfect” than I was today. If I keep learning and growing, when do I ultimately reach the “goal” of “perfection”? Answer: NEVER!!! The whole concept of “perfection” is rather meaningless. No matter how good, or “perfect” something is, it can always be improved upon! U can have the perfect piece of cheesecake today. Lo and Behold, 6 months from now, u’ll stumble upon one that’s even better. That does not mean that the one u had today was imperfect in any way!!! NASA landed a man on the moon using, by today’s standards, rather crude technology. I mean, the computing power on board the Apollo 11 could not even compare to ur iPhone!!! The Apollo capsules were pathetic tin cans compared to, say, the Space Shuttle. Yet, IT WORKED. For its time, it was PERFECT. In fact, it was state-of-the-art. Human beings are NOT imperfect!!! I’m not even sure what “perfect” is. Fact is, we’re just fine. The fact that we get sick, or even die, is NOT imperfection, it’s NATURE, it’s the reality of life on Earth. There are all kinds of viruses and hostile organisms. If I get sick, it’s not because 2 naked people ate a fruit off the wrong tree, because a talking snake tricked them. LOL
          BTW If a snake started chatting with u, wouldn’t it raise an eyebrow or two??? Somehow, “Eve” jumped right into a casual conversation with a snake, as if it were an everyday thing. Bizarre???

          • twistedsister69 says:

            Speaking of bizarre … Ever wonder why “Jesus” walked on water? I have. Still don’t know. Did he come all the way down from heaven to perform circus stunts? According to the bible, didn’t he already prove he was the messiah by turning water into wine (at least something with a practical application) and healing the sick? So what’s with the Barnum & Bailey act? Seems that the writers figured, “Hey, if we add a part where the guy walks on water, it will make this whole fairy tale more impressive/believable!” But if one THINKS IT THRU, it really makes it LESS believable, because it really does seem it was put in there to add sensationalism/”believability”. BACKFIRE. 😀

          • Gwen Little says:

            Twisted Sister,

            Such a good comment. I think that Mike thinks that “hope & faith” come in the form of a fantasy. A fantasy that never eventuates, like:

            To Mike.

            1) “No one here offers hope for mankind”. There is a difference between offering hope & offering a fantasy that can never be proven. A fantasy where the goal posts keep moving.

            2) “No other religion has accomplished what the JW’s have”. What a broad, ignorant statement that is. What about the unsung heroes that put their comforts aside to medically treat people in countries that have no access to proper medical care. I could go on but you get the idea

            3) “I have never read anything in the literature that has harmed anyone”. So let me get this right, the consequences of the following ideology doesn’t harm individuals;
            -Shunning.
            -Shaming homosexuals.
            -Shaming individuality.
            -Keeping women subservient to men.
            -Having an internal law system.
            -Brothers being jailed or giving up there lives for an anti-political statement.

            So Mike if at the end of the day, the JW leadership where to turn back on their policies, “they would be just like all the other religions”.

            Well at least they would be like the healthier ones. But this is where you make these grand sweeping statements again. You make it sound like they are so different when in fact they are just like many of the harmful, controlling religions (cults).

          • dee2 says:

            A doctrine that man was weak, fallible, and unable to govern himself was more useful to a Roman Empire and a Catholic Church that both wanted obedience………… the untold story behind the Bible Canon?

          • dee2 says:

            Aah yes, Original Sin – a doctrine that man was imperfect, weak, fallible, and unable to govern himself was more useful to a Roman Empire and a Catholic Church that both wanted obedience………… the untold story behind the Bible Canon?

        • outandabout says:

          You are among the ones here who know a bit of the bible, Dee. Is there any account of Jesus between his birth and adulthood? Where did he grow up and what did he do. Who was keeping an eye on him.

          • dee2 says:

            outandabout,

            It’s interesting that the Bible is silent about Jesus’ life between his birth and adulthood, except for one appearance at age 12 in the Gospels.

            Paul who claimed to have met Jesus in a vision on the road to Damascus, writes nothing about Jesus’ earthly life except for one debatable scripture in which mention is made of one of Jesus’ brothers.

            The lack of info about Jesus’ earthly life in Paul’s writings has people wondering whether Jesus existed at all.

            Recently I briefly met someone on a university campus who was having a little info session about Jesus’ missing years being spent in India. I was only able to do a quick browse of the info as I was in a hurry but hope to run into the person again as I would like to know more. I note that the internet also has info about Jesus’ time in India but I haven’t got a chance to review it in detail.

            “The Infancy Gospel of Thomas” narrates some fascinating stories about Jesus’ life as a boy. Here’s an excerpt about the Gospel taken from Pg. 66-67 of “Jesus – Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium” by Bart Ehrman:

            “Jesus was a miracle-working Son of God as an adult, what was he like as a kid? It turns out that he was a bit mischievous. And the alleged author is one who would be expected to know. The book is attributed to a person named “Thomas,” a word that means “twin.” In some parts of early Christianity, it was believed that Jesus had a twin brother, Thomas (fathered, possibly, by Joseph rather than God). If this author is claiming to be Jesus’ twin brother what better source for knowing the miraculous doings of the divine Wunderkind?

            The Gospel begins with Jesus as a five-year-old, making clay sparrows by a stream on the Sabbath. A Jewish man passing by sees what the boy has done and reproaches Joseph for allowing his son to break the Law of Moses by not keeping the Sabbath day holy. But when Joseph comes to reprimand the boy, Jesus claps his hands and commands the sparrows to be gone. They come to life and fly off thereby destroying any evidence of malfeasance!

            One might have expected that with his supernatural powers, Jesus would be a useful and entertaining playmate for the other kids in town. It turns out, though, that the boy has a temper and is not to be crossed. When a child muddies a pool of water that Jesus has dammed up near a stream, he curses the boy who, to the anguish of his parents, withers on the spot. When another child inadvertently runs into him on the street, Jesus turns in anger and declares, “You shall go no farther on your way.” The child falls down dead. (Jesus later raises him from the dead, along with others that he has cursed on one occasion or another.)

            And Jesus’ wrath is not reserved only for other children. Joseph sends him to school to learn to read, but Jesus refuses to recite
            the alphabet. His teacher pleads with him to cooperate, until Jesus replies with a scornful challenge, “If you really are a teacher and know the letters well, tell me the power of Alpha and I’ll tell you the power of Beta.” More than a little perturbed, the teacher cuffs the boy on the head, the single largest mistake of an illustrious teaching career. Jesus zaps him on the spot. Joseph is stricken with grief and gives an urgent
            order to his mother: “Do not let him go outside: anyone who makes him angry dies.”

            As time goes on, however, Jesus begins to use his powers for good saving his friends from deadly snake bites, healing the sick, and proving remarkably handy around the house: when Joseph miscuts a board, he has Jesus there to provide a miraculous solution. The account concludes with Jesus as a twelve-year-old in the Temple, surrounded by
            scribes and Pharisees who hear him teach and who bless Mary for the wonderful child she has brought into the world.”

      • outandabout says:

        are you saying the bible should come with an ‘R’ rating and be deemed as harmful to the psyches of young children, TS?

        • twistedsister69 says:

          ha ha ha Absolutely. ‘R’ for ‘Restricted – No One Should Read This’ or ‘Ruins the Brain’ or ‘Rubbish’ or ‘Religious Control Mechanism’ or ‘Random Fairy Tales’…………

  22. Lynaire Williams says:

    Aah, twistedsister69, have to agree wholeheartedly! Who could ever understand the bias and inconsistencies of the Holy Word? Especially as espoused by the fabulous gb. My enjoyment of Twisting the night away in the sixties was a “fertility rite”, I have no words!!
    Seriously though, this is sadly what they have done to you dear people since the inception. The absolutely worst is, of course, the “waiting on jehovah” to stamp out child abuse. For myself, I believe a close second is something you may never think about. They robbed you of your soul, your spirit. “the dead know nothing at all” is one of their concrete proofs from the bible.
    In my working and personal life I have seen many dead bodies and I have to agree with them. The person you knew has gone. Their spark, their breath, whatever animated them is gone, kaput. Of course they know nothing! Reclaim your soul,your spirit in whatever way fits you. Without it we may all just as well be dead.

  23. twistedsister69 says:

    Just caught an interesting film on TV. It’s called Switchback (1997), starring Danny Glover & Dennis Quaid. Very Hitchcock-ian. If anyone plans on watching it, don’t read on, I’m going to spoil it for you. It’s basically about an FBI agent who is doggedly pursuing a serial killer, but with a few twists. The thing that intrigued me was how the killer moved through the area (he actually used to live & work there years before) with such ease. Like a chameleon. He was extremely likable and sociable, and those who knew him liked and admired him. He was a “good ol’ boy”, a “swell guy”. In fact, one of his old buddies/co-workers (whom he later murdered) called him “the salt of the earth”. You see where I’m going with this. The other thing was that he picked up a hitchhiker, a very intelligent fellow, possibly a doctor, who had had some hard luck, and I guess just wanted to get away from it all. Yet, the killer cunningly manipulates his new “friend”, turning him into a “patsy” to take the rap for his crimes, in case the police tracked him down (via the car he was using). They went everywhere together, the killer always wore a cowboy hat to conceal his face from cameras in motels, restaurants, diners, bars, etc, while his “friend”‘s face was always in plain view. Sometimes the “patsy” even drove the car, making it appear that he was the owner. Thus, if the “heat” showed up, the killer could just bugger off, making his escape, while his new “friend” took the rap for all his crimes.
    Remind you of anyone? Is that not just how the Watchtower Society operates? Like chameleons. They are always the “good ol’ boys”, “swell guys”, above reproach, squeaky-clean, the boy/girl-next-door, the guy you’re sitting next to at the pub. Real personable-like. And they have perfected the art of Finger-Pointing, deflecting all BLAME and GUILT onto someone ELSE. It’s the CATHOLICS who molest children. It’s the MUSLIMS who follow the wrong god. It’s the GOVERNMENTS who are corrupt and treacherous. All OTHER religions are BAD. It’s the REST OF THE WORLD that’s WICKED, not US. Very clever. In fact, ingenious.
    But to any representative of the Watchtower Society who may be reading this, please take just one moment, look deep inside, and ask yourself, Ain’t the Internet a B*TCH?

    • Gwen Little says:

      A movie that resonates with me is “The Village”.

      I love that movie because it so reminds me of the leadership of the JW’s. I believe that their intentions are not to be evil, they just want to be left alone to live in their insular world.

      • Ricardo says:

        That’s a brave comment to make. It’s sure to get a reaction.

        • outandabout says:

          actually, I agree with Gwen to a certain extent. The GB wouldn’t have sat down and said ‘right, we’re going to start an abusive cult and oversee the rape of thousands of children’.
          It’s just that their crap is totally unworkable and based on lies and fantasy. It hasn’t worked and they should man up.

          • Gwen Little says:

            outandabout,

            Thats exactly what I meant. You summed it up better than I would have.

            If anyone has watched the movie, they will see what I meant. If you haven’t, the story is about a group of people (Elders) who perpetuate a fearful, demon-like creature to keep everyone in their confines because they don’t want to go back to the outside world.

            They had isolated themselves from the outside so much that they became fearful of it & what was out there. At the end of the movie, they had a meeting as to whether or not to come clean to the village about their secret (they created the demons) or keep it going to keep their deluded little fantasy world going.

      • messenger says:

        No one who just wants to be left alone points his finger at everyone else and claims, “If you don’t follow me you’re going to hell.”

        If you don’t think that’s so, go tell that to people in public and note their responses.

        Everyone in trouble, just wants to be left alone, when it means they don’t want others to cause trouble for them.

        There are 8 million JWs, so naturally the INTENTIONS of all are not evil. I’m one, and I don’t have evil intentions toward anyone. But don’t make a mistake to believe we’re all like that. Usually until an evil intention is directed at you then you will be blind to it, because evil people don’t want their behavior observed by a general population. The ones that will always see the evil men are those affected by them, and among the JW crowd I’ve learned that they often want those affected by them to be aware of their stink.

        A riddle please: How bad can you stink and still lead a kingdom hall? A simple answer (not a pun) is—-PRETTY BAD!!!!

        • Ricardo says:

          @messenger, what a brilliant explanation! What a pity we can’t give an answer like this in the meeting. I wish every witness was aware of what goes on, cos you nailed it.

          What a pity it is usually only after a person has become a victim that they become aware of this. Beforehand, they are like Mike: everything is wonderful, the GB can’t do any wrong… they are just imperfect, the elders are loving and caring. Then, in the words of Covert Fade, when something goes wrong, you see behind the curtain, and you see the elders, who you hope will help you, really can’t care if you live or die.

          And that seeing-behind-the-curtain moment is life changing. You see that this organization is, if anything, a hindrance in your relationship with Jehovah. So many witnesses drop out at this stage, and I can fully empathize why.

          But it doesn’t need to be like this. If things worked like how it should, with elders who no longer qualify given the chop and the GB giving care to the injured sheep and victims, it would be so lovely.

          At the moment, the victims are treated like the dog the lorry ran over which is yelping and yelping, and the lorry driver (elders) say: ‘Be quiet you stupid dog. Here, let me give you a kick in the guts for yelping so much. Why don’t you just go away and die.’ And the GB are like the company owning the lorry, and they say: ‘Just get over it. So you got run over. Our drivers are imperfect. Sometimes that happens.’ And the lorry drivers are free to continue running over more dogs.

          If the GB was caring, the injured dog would receive sympathy and love, and the lorry driver would lose his licence or be penalized some way so he can’t do further damage.

  24. Ted says:

    Mike, Hope is one thing, Reality is another. “Eat drink and be merry
    for tomorrow we die” (which you quoted ) seems to me to be a much
    better option than wasting the one real life we are sure of. By helping
    to fund the lifestyle of self appointed gurus, proven false prophets.
    In the hope they will lead you to the promised land.

    Mike, Armageddon has been at the doors for so long that the doors
    have fallen off the hinges. they’ve just built a fabulous country retreat,
    swimming pool, basket ball courts, the lot! They are realists, their stake
    is firmly fixed in this system. Be honest Mike, if you were not a JW
    what would you think of their clammer, that the end is imminent ?

    Mike, Your org, has focussed attention on just one particular generation
    that would live to see this systems end, that’s those who witnessed
    the events of 1914. Some whom they said could be as young as 15,
    were that true, those kids would now be118 years old. As far as is
    known no one of that age is alive today. So their get out of jail tactic!
    Add on another generation.

    Mike be honest, if you were not a JW what would your opinion of
    that tactic be?. It’s not always easy facing reality but it can sure help
    in avoiding the disappointment of a wasted life.

    • Mike says:

      @Ted

      I am very honest. If I where not a witness my opinion will still be the same.
      I understand that it can be difficult to understand what a person is saying with so many people writing, when you write something long things get lost, or when you do not read the whole thing.
      But it would be the same for several reasons.

      1) If you read my postings you would see I am not defending the GB. I have stated if they are wrong “what they sow they will reap” If holding back the files are causing some type of harm to our children or future children those files should never be held. (That is not defending)
      2) The GB like everyone else has legal rights. Like you and me have legal rights. Like O.J. has legal rights. I have stated when those legal right are finished, we will see what they have at the end.
      3) If at the end, the law feels they should be punished and pay a price. So be it. Remember! what you…….
      4)“Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die” I have a good life, just like many here, it is not that much different. I just came home with my wife of 27 yrs(Who is not a JW) from watching our son take the silver in a culinary arts competition. I go to work, vacation, pay my bills, have money in the bank, have a retirement, except I spend time teaching people how to better their lives, love god and wait for a better future. (So you know, I refused to celebrate holidays even before I became a witness.)
      5) “fabulous country retreat” haven’t seen it yet, seen pictures looks beautiful. Will see it in person. I have been to the Brooklyn and the other ones. I have seen bethalites swimming, playing basketball, having picnics. Even saw the garage where they work on everyone’s car, farm, state of the art printing.. Haven’t seen a golf course. A lot of people live there.
      6)My beliefs. Do you know depending what site you go to. The proof that JW’s are right are just as good as those who say JW’s are wrong. It depends what you want to believe, who you hate more, and who did you wrong. This is an anti-JW site so what do you thing? Last week or the week before, someone from one of these pages gave me a PDF about 7 pages long dealing with two lunar eclipses the JW’s say took place and why the JW’s are wrong. I read the whole long thing on why the JW’s are wrong. The second to the last paragraph she writes that even though those two eclipses happen the above gives reasons as to why they are wrong. He said he never noticed the sentences. Why? his point of view.
      7) I face reality everyday. I drank, smoked, gambled, cheated on my wife, till she left. Studied religion and what they believed, got thrown out for questioning from 6 churches. Went to library, saw all kinds of books on why JW’s are bad. Caught my curiosity, started studying what is true and what is not, at the library. 1994 became a witness, No one came knocking on my door, I knocked on there’s. Religion and people like these made me a witness. My wife came back in 1994, still not a witness and celebrates holidays. I have a daughter who is gay, another who does not talk to me because I am a JW and a son who is a JW and a pioneer. Sound like reality to you?
      7) My point on god is just simply this. If hypothetically, the JW’s where God’s organization, would he not have something to say about it? Would it not be on his timetable if something was to be done? Who are we to tell God how he should act or do things or who should run his organizations? At 1 Samuel 16:7 it reads “But Jehovah said to Samuel: “Do not pay attention to his appearance and how tall he is, for I have rejected him. For the way man sees is not the way God sees, because mere man sees what appears to the eyes, but Jehovah sees into the heart.

      On this site and others people actually want to say to god how things should be done by their thoughts. A good god wouldn’t do this or that. Read the bible he sure as heck has and sure as heck will. I mean hypothetically speaking if the JW’s where God’s people and there was a god.

      8) Hypothetically speaking Ted, if the JW’s where God’s people and Satan was god of this system of things till Armageddon. Would he not want to destroy god’s organization.

      9) If all of this is hypothetical than who really cares. I will live my life happy till I die.

      10) The bible does however give some really good advise on this matter. So you can pick. Acts 5:38,39 “So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself. (Hitler could not do it)

      So you see Ted I am honest. I always thought the world would end. being a JW I learned how. When I fund the Org. I give from my heart, just like those who give to their favorite charities. My life is not wasted, I have meant a lot of nice people in the ministry and I go home every night and kiss my non-JW wife goodnight.

      Reality is subjective!

      Mike

  25. Ted says:

    Enjoyed the you tube video Lloyd. The point about scientists
    being revered ( as they claim ). When in fact many would struggle
    to name 3 scientists, but gb members are in the face
    regularly via JW broad casting, that along with other points was
    worth remembering.

    When they claim science is causing people to lose belief in God
    and lose love for God . I don’t think they care a rats about that,
    ( They’re not encouraging people to return to their churches).

    Their concern is the effect scientific articles are having on their
    own recruitment and the waking up to reality of their members.

    • Doc Obvious says:

      Watchtower is deflecting the blame to scientists, evolutionists, and atheists for people leaving. What a scapegoat for their own issue. Maybe the scientists, evolutionists, and atheists are paying attention to the flock more than the elders in the local congregation. Where are the elders? Oh. They are in their several decade Watchtower construction program and not paying attention to shepherding the flock. A shepherd is a 24 hour – 7 days a week, 365.25 day job. Doing construction work for the Regional Building Committee is a more important duty than making sure people are doing well. Making huge money real estate transactions is more important than people. No wonder people are leaving!

  26. twistedsister69 says:

    Those stupid GB. I just heard Tony Morris and Stephen Lett embarked on a tour of the “holy land”. They decided to “rough it”, going on camel-back. But at one site, their camel got loose and ran away. They told a local policeman. He said, “Can you describe the camel?” They said, “Well, he’s brown, has a hump, with a long neck and long legs.” The policeman responded, “That pretty much fits every camel around here. Any distinguishing features?” They replied, “He has two a**holes.” The cop asked, “Two a**holes? How do you know?” “Because everywhere we go, people point and say, ‘Look at the two a**holes on that camel.'”

    • outandabout says:

      Q; What do you get if you cross a Jehovah’s Witness with a Hell’s Angel?

      A; Someone who knocks on your door and tells YOU to F..k Off!!

  27. M.J. Crowley says:

    My daughter talked to me regarding a particular text message that bothered her. A person had text my daughter with a heart in the message. She had just learned from the JW.org web site, that emoji’s are flirtatious in nature and pose real harm to her.

    We went to the elders immediately. After the mid-week meeting, we went to see brother window-washer and brother landscaper for their assistance. They asked my daughter to see the text message. It was there I saw the flirtatious text message with that God awful emoji of a heart. It was an outrage! The brothers looked at the phone number and asked the two of us if we recognized the phone number of the individual that texted the Satanic text message. Therefore, I looked at the text message and said that I know the individual that text the message. It was my mother. My daughter’s grandmother. I felt relieved that it was not one of those hot-trot boys in the neighborhood.

    I told the brothers that it was my mother. Crisis was averted. The brothers told my daughter if she has any more issues, to let them know. Later at home, I told my daughter to look at the phone number and verify that the individual was a boy in her class or neighbor. I also told her not to give her cell phone number out to anyone.

    • outandabout says:

      Thank you, Dee. I would have thought the son of god would have been to some, the most important person alive and would therefore be watched like a hawk and documented by many people. I wonder then, how can anybody be certain that Jesus the adult was actually Jesus the infant.

  28. Jado says:

    I spent 8 years among Jehovah’s Witnesses as a baptized publisher the time during which I discovered a ‘secret”: The religion is build on three main pillars: (1) Sex (2) Ignorance (3) Fear which create an ecosystem where “sperm” flows smoothly.

    Curious to know more, I discovered that:
    1) In “Christ” followers, the prevalence of HIV/AIDS is higher among JWs women as shown in my country’s DHS2014-15 (available on http://www.rbc.gov.rw/IMG/pdf/2014-15_rdhs_final_report.pdf )!

    2) In 1975, “Watchtower” said “It seems that more normal people today are affected by this fear of collective death, at least unconsciously. This is at least a partial explanation of the disarray of our times, which is expressed in gratuitous crime, vandalism, eroticism and the accelerated pace of life. Even modern music and dances seem to express the despair of a humanity that no longer believes in its own future.” (w75 1/15 p. 57 par. 17).

    3) Building on ignorance of its followers (low IQ compared with other religion), the religion stirs up their sexual instinct and take them back to Biblical times: https://shaunphilly.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/hindu-temple-art1.jpg

    The religion is strong as it uses “sex drive” as fuel.

    • Ricardo says:

      That is certainly a concept I haven’t heard before. That must have been a groovy 8 years when you were a witness. I wish I was in your congregation to hear some of your answers.

      • Jado says:

        My answers were from JWs publications! Example: “You know how a boy is. He has a penis. The girl has an opening in her body that it fits into.” (fl chap. 9 p. 124 par. 19).

  29. Kat says:

    Riccardo makes some good points.

    Sadly though while JW are in this captive of a concept nothing will change much, what is needed is for the many Ricardo’s rise above the GB and do something within.

    • Ricardo says:

      My CO friend said that it’s not the Ricado ‘Korah’-class who will bring the changes. He says the disquiet from within the normal rank and file members of JW’s is growing, and when these ones have had enough of the nonsense then we will see something.

      I would like all the Ricardos in the world to unite somehow, but perhaps our purpose is to be the canary in the mine, that is to be the early warners of catastrophe to come.

      There are times coming that JW’s like Mike are unprepared for: worldwide decreases, a flood of sex abuse court cases, the witnesses being spoken about negatively for valid reason. This will shock them and test their faith. I predict there will be many more JW’s airing their opinions at sites like these in the future.

  30. Ted says:

    Hi mike, nice to hear from you. You say reality is subjective,
    that may be true as far as individual opinions go. Your reality
    seems to be that God is controlling the JW org, and will sort
    out any defects in his own due time.

    My reality is that they are proven false prophets and that the
    evidence for divine guidance is woefully absent. Deut, 18:22
    Further more they have caused much pain and suffering in
    many lives.

    You quote the words of Gamaliel. ( in brief ) “Do not meddle
    with these men, if this scheme is from men it will be overthrown,
    but if it’s from God, it will not be overthrown”. Again I offer you
    an alternate view of reality. For evil. to flourish, all it takes is
    for good men to do nothing. S, Wiesenthal.

    Ultimate reality is not a matter of opinion. People die and do not
    come back, “The undiscovered country from whose bourn no
    traveller returns” as Shakespeare expresses it.
    Stars like our sun are finite and will eventually become red giants
    it will be more like hell down here than paradise when that happens.

    Anyway Mike, you seem to have resolved everything to your
    own satisfaction, which is what we all have to do, and I wish
    you well. Although I wonder whether you commit completely
    to the control the org, exercises over its people. you come across
    as an independent thinker, just your commenting here indicates
    that. Best wishes, Ted .

    • poky44055 says:

      @Ted

      “Ultimate reality is not a matter of opinion. People die and do not come back” That is true today, But as the apostle Paul said. if the dead are not to be resurrected. Then party hardy till you die.
      So than what does it really matter if your Atheist, a JW, Catholic, your teaching is false, prophecies are lies, You called to many false dates, My mom will not speak to me because I am disfellowshipped? We all die. So everyone get over it.
      I will tell you something Ted. For a website and group of people who believe JW’s are so wrong, that they will take it to their graves. They sure do pay a lot of attention to those false prophets. I mean, I know God does not exist, the bible is a lie, and Jesus was just a good mam. But they sure do resemble part of the group that Jesus said would speak abusively of his true followers. (I mean, I am just noting the similarities. I am not suggesting nothing.)

      Yes Ted, I am an independent thinker, and I teach my son who is a pioneer to think independently. My son is 20, when he was 14-15 I told him to expect a sexual scandal of some type in the JW’s org. I told him among 7 mil. plus imperfect humans, There will be some that will take advantage of it for their own pleasures. What I did not know was how bad.
      I tell my son we serve Jehovah, not the org. It is the org, Jehovah uses to teach us. (I know what you people are going to say, I already heard it, so please do not bother) I tell my son you can find the truth about god in the world itself. If someone tells you it is the truth dig deeper, to make sure it is not a lie. If they say it is a lie dig deeper to make sure it is not truth. The point is to dig deep, and have full faith in Jehovah that he will revile the truth. And he always does. That includes this situation.

      It was once stated at an assembly, “do not be surprised if come the great tribulation, that brothers/sisters who you thought where faithful do not make it through” He paused for a moment, than said, “That includes the anointed”.

      As I said to you earlier. If I am wrong, I will still die a happy man, I might even die happier than a lot of the people who write in this site. My faith in Jehovah is very strong, regardless of what happens to who, what gets paid out, the ridicule we take . When the smoke clears Jehovah’s organization will still be standing it has been proven time after time.

      Thank you Mike

      • Ricardo says:

        @Poky, you have said that people on this site ‘sure do resemble part of the group that Jesus said would speak abusively of his true followers.’

        I tend to disagree (as a contributor to this site, what do you expect?).

        I see them as part of the answer the GB gave in the Awake! g84 22/8 p.28:
        “The Catholic Church occupies a very significant position in the world and claims to be the way to salvation for hundreds of millions of people. Any organization that assumes that position should be willing to submit to scrutiny and criticism.”

        As our organization assumes to be the way to salvation, should it not submit itself to scrutiny and criticism?

        What is presented in this site is not lies. As an independent thinker who values truth, you can surely see that the suffering of the victims chronicled in these posts is genuine and uncalled for.

        So let’s state some facts: there are legitimate victims of our organization. The latest court cases where millions of our donations have been paid out as compensation is proof of this.

        Also, the legitimate victims have in some cases had their lives ruined by what they have experienced, sometimes even taking their own lives.

        Another fact: although our leadership know of such suffering, and know it is caused by the leadership’s arrangements which are not implemented scripturally, the leadership has not only made minimal if any change, but has stated that there will be no change.

        Anyone who is independent in thought who remembers the love Jesus showed for victims would see there is a disconnect between the spirit of the Bible and the spirit of this leadership.

        Such truthful exposure of such things is not ‘speaking abusively of his true followers’. It is stating facts.

        That this lack of action is having an effect on the reputation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and therefore dragging God’s name in the mud is a fact.

        As an independent thinker who serves Jehovah, you should be disturbed by that. That you are not is further reason for people on this site and elsewhere to wonder what is going on in the depths of your heart. Normally people have pity for the victims and want to help them (re: Jesus’ illustration of the good Samaritan).

        That there are some Jehovah’s Witnesses who don’t care that our reputation is getting shot to pieces unnecessarily, that victims are suffering, and that some of our best and most active members are leaving cos they don’t want to be hypocrites is astonishing.

        If you are an independent thinker, I am sure you would agree that it is fair to have scrutiny and criticism of our organization. You may agree that our organization as a whole has been found wanting. This exposure should help an organization that really cares, to make ammends.

        As our organization does not have an avenue for members to complain (try complaining and you’ll soon feel the wrath of the elders, that is also a fact), it should not be surprising for members to come to sites like this.

        Unlike in the world where there are ombundsmen and courts we can appeal to, or complain to,in our organization any complaints about the leadership are dealt with by the leadership. And guess what? The leadership is always cleared from any fault.

      • outandabout says:

        When has ‘it been proven time after time’?

        Has the WT been exposed for creating a climate which saw the rape of thousands of children before?
        Has the WT been exposed for sheltering thousands of pedophiles before?
        Has the WT had to face multi million dollar law suits before?
        Has the WT ever had to face a foe such as the Internet before?
        Has the GB ever had to hide from the public and run when approached in the street by a reporter before?

        I think you may be right when you say the Org will survive, but no longer would it be able to claim to be the dispenser of truth. It will just be another ridiculous cult but with a very grubby past that’s impossible to hide anymore.

        Some people just can’t face being wrong is what it adds up to and that has most definitely been proven time after time after time.

        Cheers.

        • Big B says:

          Excellent battery of questions, outand about;

          First, I believe that this organization (read, ‘CULT’) will always have a core of die-hard Apologists and will hang and make excuses for their delusional beliefs no matter what.

          Secondly, the only way the G.B. can save themselves all of this “heartache” of paying victims of child abuse is to dump the WTBTS and start calling themselves something different (like JW.org). In this way they can dispense with the two witness rule and put a stop to any other child abuse cases under the new and improved “God’s Spirit Directed Organization”. (I almost vomited typing that out).

          To Mike:
          “When the smoke clears Jehovah’s organization will still be standing it has been proven time after time”.
          Yes, maybe but standing as what? Another failed ‘Millerite’ Adventist, doomsday cult, that was reinvigorated or reinvented by a haberdasher and then taken over by a drunken “Judge”.

          Another question to ask yourself; if Jehovah is the personification of perfection, and his son is also perfect, then does it not stand to reason that the Holy Spirit emanating from Jehovah, which caused the Bible to be written, is not also perfect?

          If you concur with the above then does it not stand to reason that if this (WTBTS) was truly Jehovah’s earthly Organization their doctrine would not be in need for adjustment or refinement every twenty years with NEW LIGHT? This honest question had my visiting elders scrambling for my front door!

          Can you or anyone show me any scriptural examples where Jehovah gave his people NEW LIGHT or made adjustments or refinements to his Laws or religious doctrine as mediated through Moses?

          These are indeed critical times for the WTBTS and surely they will be standing but only as a tiny shadow of what they once were as the membership either wises-up or dies off.

          The numbers of their latest year book supports my contention along with a continued growth of Memorial partakers to the tune of 5,000 over ten year period. Check out your yearbooks friends and verify this for yourselves. Are the J.W’s due for a new adjustment (read:NEW LIGHT) changing Rutherford’s cut off date for gathering in the remnant class in the 1930’s? Or will the Governing Body continue to say that these new partakers are mentally/emotional unstable or too ‘new’ to understand the Watchtower doctrine?

          Either way Mike, unless they start baptizing infants, similar to the practices of the Catholic Church, they have no replacements to fill the void.

          Those who wisely left after the 1975 debacle are not coming back, and honest hearted ones like myself, raised in and around the Truth for over a half century, are finding out the “TRUTH about the Truth” and are leaving in droves. The youth see nothing for them but work, work, work and no pay or enumeration of any kind for this AMWAY-like, cold calling, sales scheme started by Rutherford who himself did not participate in but had absolutely no problem sending others out.

          All of this information can be verified if, and that is a big IF, anyone is a truth seeker and not AFRAID of looking to see how deep the rabbit hole of culpability and corruption truly is.

          Big B
          (1957 involvement to 2013 fade)

  31. twistedsister69 says:

    ha ha ha Did anyone else catch the assertion at the end of Mike’s ‘thesis’? — “Reality is subjective!”
    What a CLASSIC JW line! – Sounds like it could have come straight out of Donald Trump’s mouth. (BTW didn’t Donald Trump & Mike Pence recently take a tour of the “holy land” on camel-back? LMAO)
    So, Mike, you’re saying that if I want to believe the Moon is made of blue cheese, then THE MOON IS MADE OF BLUE CHEESE.
    If I want to believe dinosaurs existed 5000 years ago (as Sarah Palin does), then DINOSAURS EXISTED 5000 YEARS AGO.
    And if I want to believe that “Jesus” walked on water, then you gotta know that JESUS GODDAMNED WELL WALKED ON WATER!!!!!!!!!!!
    HEY EVERYONE – SCREW REALITY – BELIEVE WHATEVER THE @#$% YOU WANT!!!!!!!
    😀 😀 😀
    Mike, people like you just CRACK ME UP.

    • twistedsister69 says:

      Mikey….Are you really Donald Trump?…C’mon, ‘fess up.

    • Big B says:

      @ twistedsister69;

      I always enjoy your humorous comments.

      However, in all fairness to Mike, delusional people can’t deal with reality and when their doctrine doesn’t fit the situation (read: reality) anymore then NEW LIGHT is revealed to make the needed changes/adjustments to make the “reality” work.

      Thus the discontinued printing of the “Revelation, Its Grand Climax at Hand” book, “Insight” books, “Reasoning from the Scriptures”, “Evolution or Creation” book, etc. have been suspended. Why? They are outdated, irrelevant and their doctrine unsound.

      In addition, most of the ‘sheeple’ could not understand the information given thus the dumbing down (watering down) of the Watchtower lessons to ‘baby food’ so the sheeple can digest/understand it.

      For example; when was the last time a Watchtower study explained ‘type’ and ‘anti-type’? Its been decades; why? Firstly, JW’s don’t teach that doctrine anymore and secondly, the sheeple wouldn’t understand it anyway.

      Mike is, unfortunately, a Jehovah’s Witness apologist who will continue to stay on his unsinkable ship of misguided faith until it founders into the sea of reason and oblivion. That is unless he does HIS own research for HIMSELF (not in J.W. literature) then he will have appreciation for what HE found out; NOT what others or the organization have told him. Otherwise we are casting our ‘pearls before swine’. Also, “there are none so blind as those who REFUSE to see”.

      To all, this writing is not meant as a condemnation of those who are trying to find the TRUTH. All here encourage the exchange of beliefs and all should be able to question without threats or hindrance.

      Big B

      • outandabout says:

        yeah, Mikes alright. You have to admire his stick-ability and the way he hung on by his fingernails. Last seen slipping into the jungles of Guyana clutching a bottle of Kool Aid.

        Y’know, if four percent of recently surveyed JW’s said they’d take a pill if directed to by the GB, that means 320,000 of them would follow the GB into a jungle where they could do whatever they pleased with them. That’s a fairly high number of…..well….idiots? These are the ones the GB might eventually end up with and they could then tithe the b’jesus out of them and live like kings.

  32. dee2 says:

    Mike,

    “Reality is subjective”.

    Well, listen to this reality:

    How will it be possible to live forever on a Paradise Earth when the earth won’t last forever?

    The sun, like all other stars, cannot go on burning forever as it has a finite source of hydrogen fuel which will eventually be exhausted as the hydrogen is consumed by the nuclear fusion process that converts it into helium and light energy (the light energy is needed to sustain life on earth).

    It is a scientific fact that the sun will eventually die like all stars do. As the sun goes through its death throes it will either consume the earth or simply render life on earth impossible:

    http://www.space.com/14364-earth-consumed-red-giant-star-5b-years.html

    http://www.space.com/10245-sun-die-earth.html

    https://www.e-education.psu.edu/astro801/content/l6_p2.html

    http://www.space.com/22471-red-giant-stars.html

    http://www.space.com/17218-dying-star-devours-alien-planet.html

    http://futurism.com/death-from-the-skies-how-our-solar-system-will-die/

    http://www.space.com/11425-photos-supernovas-star-explosions.html

    So how will it be possible to live forever on a Paradise Earth when the earth won’t last forever?

  33. Ted says:

    It seems some who visit this site and attempt to defend
    the wt, org, are not fully committed to the religion and all
    it’s taboos and do’s and dont’s. There were many like that
    when I was in, memorial attenders, never did any real
    witnessing, but liked the idea of paradise earth etc.

    Such ones never bothered the elders seeking consolation
    from feelings of guilt, wondering whether they had committed
    some violation or other. Or needing to explain why no report
    was put in last month. It was an easy ride for them!

    Only those who were committed from the heart were ever
    burdened with guilt. Only they would try to apply every bit
    of counsel that came from the gb. You would certainly not
    find any of them commenting here, for fear of offending JHVH
    and losing their place in paradise.

    • GEM says:

      @ Ted:
      Why does the new Warwick front piece evoke thoughts of the Ishtar Gate? With a new New Golden Calf in JW.org and a procession gate leading to Paradise, WT as we knew it has become a comfortable suburb of Babylon the Great. Gone are the days when loyalty to Jehovah and his Son were the key cornerstones of JW life. Sigh.

    • twistedsister69 says:

      Excellent point, Ted. I think most of the folks here are NOT the “slacker” types. That’s why the disappointment/disillusionment after many years of SINCERE effort. I was recently reading about the Williams sisters (you know, the JW tennis pro’s). Apparently, they may not even actually be baptized, yet they “identify” as Jehovah’s Witnesses, apparently with not much objection from the JW rank-and-file. This in spite of crediting much of their success to “Jehovah”, engaging in competitive sports (a definite no-no to JWs), singing the national anthem, and even discussing their sex lives during certain interviews. Now folks like that will NEVER understand the betrayal that many sincere followers experience, because they are basically “slackers” who enjoy the (WT-sanctioned) privilege of enjoying ONLY the BEST of BOTH worlds! Geeez, must be niiice!!!

      • twistedsister69 says:

        …Even elders/overseers are not far from that. They may not be total “slackers”, but they are certainly having a grand old time riding the backs of the peons!

      • Ricardo says:

        Serena Williams thanks Jehovah for helping her win a tennis match.

        Yet, in the Australian Royal Commission it was explained that the little girl prayed that Jehovah would send his angels to protect her when her father came into her room to abuse her.

        Which is more important, to win a tennis match or to be protected from being abused? Why would God answer Serena’s prayer but not the little girl’s?

        I wonder if Serena has ever wondered that, or if any of the witnesses who think Serena is wonderful for thanking Jehovah think about this?

    • Mike says:

      Perhaps JW’s are not as brained washed or controlled as you folks think.

      Mike

  34. twistedsister69 says:

    @poky44055

    Not to be a nit-picker, and this may be a BIT of a stretch, but I’ve said before that I’m kind of a believer in Freudian Slips. Keeping in mind that English may not be your first language, I noticed, at the end of your second or third paragraph, you said “Jehovah” will “revile” the truth, as he always does.
    “revile” – to criticize in an abusive or angrily insulting manner
    Just sayin’.

  35. Jado says:

    A religion which is built on “sex” will never be eliminated. Its rooted in human nature struggling between evil and good…. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102003522?q=%22Internet+Pornography+Facts%22&p=par

  36. Ricardo says:

    I have commented here about the child abuse among JW’s to show that not all JW’s are callous, heartless automatons who unquestionably support the Governing Body as if loyalty to the GB is equal to loyalty to Jehovah. There are some of us JW’s who are ashamed, disappointed, even disgusted with the way the GB has dealt with child abuse, and feel that if the members of the GB cannot run our organization in a scriptural way then modesty would dictate that they should stand aside. Other members of the GB in the past have been modest enough to stand down when faced with a crisis of conscience.

    Some witnesses recognize that the elder arrangement is implemented in a faulty way, as is the judicial committee arrangement which is lacking scriptural basis. Both these arrangements, (the elder arrangement and judicial committee arrangement) have resulted in victims being abused unnecessarily and a cover-up of that abuse. Both arrangements have been imposed on us by the GB. Both arrangements can easily be adjusted by the GB, but the GB stubbornly refuses to make any changes for undisclosed reasons.

    Some witnesses feel that the GB should be brave enough to shoulder the responsibility for the GB’s faulty arrangements. Some witnesses feel bad for the impression that other concerned members of the public are getting, that it brings shame to Jehovah and to his witnesses. We wonder how the GB and the elders can be so heavy-handed toward the rank and file members of the witnesses, yet so complacent towards themselves.

    We do not think that the GB is above criticism. Yet we love Jehovah and feel that he does not deserve to be criticized for what is not his fault in the organization. We love and pity the victims, and feel that one victim is already too many.

    Jehovah does not need us to clear his name. However, there is a lack of any meaningful way to have our disappointment and feelings registered by our organization.

    • JBob says:

      @Ricardo – the Lord’s Prayer is “Father sanctify your name” — doesn’t need anyone holding onto the ark to keep it steady—zzzap!! But, we placed many magazines, books and built 2-day Kingdom Halls in your name? [locked gates rattling as derelict refugee is shoved away] “I’m sorry, but who are you, again?”

  37. John says:

    This supreme hostil organisation is very strong at saying shun the world live it alone but are the first to follow the dragon age customs. just read at the comments , you find sex violence hatred speech with bible frone verses , heavy criticism calling people of apostat but them self are flirtting this site and such is called representent of God ??. Well let their Jehovah be judge and get off with such a bunch . The worst religion ever seen . Betraying their own flesh, were do we drow the line ? they still gonna lern for once and for all what it is to undermine God Isaiah 48:11.

  38. alan beddow says:

    Reading some of these stories reminded me of something I heard many years ago that sheds light on the perspective Elders have on the Child Abuse Issue.

    Back in the mid 90’s my Father came back from a special Elders meeting at the local assembly hall. He told us that Satan was attacking the organisation through Child Abuse. Through false accusations and infiltration by child abusers.

    The perspective of Elders is that this is an attack from Satan. This is why they react the way they do and why they are more concerned in covering up and protecting the organisation than protecting and supporting the victim. They see the Organisation as the victim.

    This is why I cannot see the organisation reforming this issue. Each case simply reinforces their view that they are the true religion under attack by Satan, rather than an issue faced by many organisations that needs to be handled professionally.

    • Ricardo says:

      @alan,
      As time goes by the GB becomes more and more paranoid. The GB is looking for more and more power, and is micro-managing the members. I am sure this is the action of an organization on its last legs. The GB is relying on support from the elders, and thus making more and more elders younger and younger. The GB doesn’t care about the victims.

      So it won’t change.

      If the GB had learnt what Christianity is, what love Jesus showed his followers and people in general, even those who hated him, we would see this quality permeate the organization. Instead, we see a GB which doesn’t care if Jehovah’s name is dragged through the mud by the GB’s inaction.

      I think our organization has gone apostate.

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  • LANGUAGE - Visitors from all countries and language groups are welcome. You may post comments in languages other than English, but we would appreciate if you could make any such comments brief. We would also be grateful if you could run any such comments through Google Translate and convert these to English, but this is not an absolute requirement.
  • LINKS - You may post links to third party websites, so long as (1) you limit these to 2 links per comment, and (2) the content on these links doesn't contravene ANY of the first four points. Specifically, you may not post URLs to websites that are evangelical in nature. Our links page has an extensive list of such sites for any who are curious about Christian beliefs in the context of Jehovah's Witnesses.

JWSurvey.org thanks all visitors in advance for respectfully observing these guidelines. Any who persistently fail to do so, despite warnings, may find themselves blocked from making further comments at the discretion of the site moderators, whose decision will be final and not open for debate.