In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted

It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.

Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.

Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.

But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.

It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.

Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.

Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.

The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals

 

Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.

Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.

If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.

This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”

But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.

Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.

All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.

When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.

If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.

And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.

Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.

Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.

 

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Further reading…

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386 thoughts on “Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon

  • May 10, 2016 at 11:25 am
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    I always love when grown ups urge kids to do their dirty work and then hide behind their legal department when doing so. I really wish the Watchtower themselves would go to the United States Supreme Court and tell them that their Jehovah and he does not want same sex marriage. These men in the United States are spiritual wimps. Be a man, Anthony Morris III, and do your own dirty work. Also, please stop taking food out of our kids mouths. It looks bad.

  • May 10, 2016 at 12:32 pm
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    I think a distinction has to be made between heterosexuals
    who for some reason engage in homosexual acts, and those
    in whom the preference is hard wired, and who remain that way
    throughout their life.

    The word sodomy derived from the Bible, brings up thoughts of
    debauched orgies where lust takes over and anything and everything
    takes place. ( That account I feel must influence many peoples
    opinions of homosexuals. )

    There’s also the men in prison who get drawn into those practices .

    Then, there’s the genuine gay person.
    Whose natural urges are toward the same sex only.

    I know two elderly men, homosexual men, who have lived together
    nearly all their adult life. They go to dances and dance with ladies,
    but they always leave together. They are not and never have been
    a threat to anyone.

    But there is one young man in my daughters cong, I really feel
    sorry for, He’s just getting involved in it all, he’s admitted his
    preference, that he is gay. and in his own words, he is fighting it.

    What are the prospects of his happiness, especially if he’s pushed
    into a relationship with a young sister, Resulting in two blighted
    lives.

    When it comes to debating this issue, the bottom line is “Always”
    It’s the inspired word of God. And if God hates homosexuality
    then Christians should also hate it.

    Well that’s another debate in itself. Much has been said on this
    site alone about the authenticity and veracity of the Bible.
    I’ll leave it there!

    • May 10, 2016 at 1:18 pm
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      It has also been my observation that there are those in whom the homosexual preference is hard wired and there are those heterosexuals
      who, for some reason engage in homosexual acts.

  • May 10, 2016 at 12:32 pm
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    The bible clearly states that God (if there is one) does not approve of men engaging in sexual activity with other men, and same for women with women. It’s unfortunate that such in individuals ( individuals that agree with what the bible says on the matter of homosexuality ) must be torn with a troubled conscience while trying to serve God. But, thats the way the ball bounced. Just because you are born that way IN THIS WORLD, does not make it okay as a sexual act or as a life style. Its as if this is an alternate reality like in Back to the Future. This reality we know of…this reality we feel and breath everyday was never supposed to happen. Also God did not make Satan, or nudge Satan to ultimately feel the way he did thus causing him to make all the stupid decisions that he did. That was Satan’s own damn fault. There did’t have to be an “evil” for there to be a “good”… It all just went down the way it went down. Now we are all here, and if you are gay… too bad.

    • May 10, 2016 at 1:24 pm
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      PeterB:

      – “Its as if this is an alternate reality like in Back to the Future.”

      How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality?

      – “This reality we know of…this reality we feel and breath everyday was never supposed to happen.”

      How do you know that this reality was never supposed to happen? What reason is there to believe that this reality was never supposed to happen?

      – “Also God did not make Satan, or nudge Satan to ultimately feel the way he did thus causing him to make all the stupid decisions that he did.”

      What stupid decisions did Satan make?

      – “There did’t have to be an “evil” for there to be a “good” “.

      How do you know that?

      – “Now we are all here, and if you are gay… too bad.”

      Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?

      • May 11, 2016 at 3:29 am
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        And in this “alternate reality” some people get cancer – “too bad, that’s the way the ball bounces”

        And some children get molested by JW pedofiles – “too bad that’s the way the ball the ball bounces”

        It seems like a pretty self centered outlook. It seems to indicate “it doesn’t affect me, so too bad for them. Let God fix it” Unrealistic outlook in my opinion.

        WS

      • May 11, 2016 at 7:08 am
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        @dee2
        (My comeback comment has been waiting moderation since yesterday. So here it is without curse words.)
        How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality? 1.) If you know the answers then why do you ask? You know exactly how a person studying with JWs will answer. I know from scriptures. I have chosen to view my study of the scriptures as fact. I studied with 7 denominations before I agreed to study with JWs. I have plenty of comments on this site already with scriptures that support my view. If you want to interpret scriptures another way then that’s your thing. 2) Repeat

        What stupid decisions did Satan make?
        In short, he chose to “fight the power” like a big whiny brat because he couldn’t see himself worshiping God and slaving for him with a fake smile on his face for the rest of his never ending life in heaven. So he decided to switch things up a bit. Maybe he got his fragile feelings/ego all butt-hurt over some family jealousy in heaven.
        Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?
        If you are gay, maybe God will have mercy on you whenever he brings this sh!t hole world to an end. Maybe he’ll even show mercy to almost all of you that have been devastated by policies that the JW Organization has in place. But it’s too bad in the way that the bible says what it says about homosexuals and that’s that. So there. The Bible is the authority.

        The Bible is freakin’ awesome. I’ve been obsessed with it since I was a late teen. I’ve also been obsessed with uncovering truths about the world that we live in. And I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago! The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big a** take over that will leave you in shock and awe. I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view. The Bible is REAL. I don’t even read the NWT of the Bible. But the Bible I read says that God disapproves of a gay lifestyle. So, again for those of you that support the lifestyle…you’re just taking one hell of a chance with God. I know a few non-JWs growing up that made a decision not to act on their desires because they felt it was wrong. Now that is a sacrifice!!! Everyone is just obsessed with making sure that they themselves are HAPPY in this selfish world! So simple.

        • May 11, 2016 at 11:26 am
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          @PeterB
          The fact that you need to have a “comeback” comment reveals much about your motives. The majority of folks on this site are not looking to win arguments, but rather they are looking to gain perspective on their involvement what, after thorough and honest examination, has proven to be a damaging high control group or cult.

          Your comments reveal a lack of love for your fellow humans who may happen to have been born gay or lesbian (see John 3:16 and 13:35). You have called some of us dumb (1 Pet 2:23) and you seem to be unable to control the language you use (Eph 4:29).

          So what is it you are learning from the JWs about the Bible? It is certainly none of the above references. If you want to learn to be condescending, judgemental, and egomaniacal, then the JW religion (along with many other fundamentalist Christian groups) may be the place for you. But you are failing to learn the love of the Christ that the Bible teaches.

          Good luck with your “studies.”

          WS

    • May 13, 2016 at 8:22 am
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      Show me one single bible scripture, where sexual relationship woman with woman are condemned by god. When the bible is gods word, you have to prove your statement.

      • May 13, 2016 at 12:54 pm
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        Danny,

        The only one that comes to mind is:
        Romans 1:26 This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

        Or as according to the Living Bible:
        Romans 1:26 That is why God let go of them and let them do all these evil things, so that even their women turned against God’s natural plan for them and indulged in sex sin with each other.

        I am not advocating intolerance of homosexuals by pointing this out, but simply attempting to answer your question.

        WS

  • May 10, 2016 at 2:36 pm
    Permalink

    How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality? 1) If you know the answers then why do you ask? You know exactly how I will answer. I know from scriptures. I have chosen to view my study of the scriptures as fact. I studied with 7 denominations before I agreed to study with JWs. I have plenty of comments on this site already with scriptures that support my view. If you want to interpret scriptures another way then that’s your thing. 2) Repeat

    What stupid decisions did Satan make?
    In short, he chose to “fight the power” like a big whiny brat because he couldn’t see himself worshiping God and slaving for him with a fake smile on his face for the rest of his never ending life in heaven. So he decided to switch things up a bit. Maybe he got his fragile feelings/ego all butt-hurt over some family jealousy in heaven.
    Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?
    If you are gay, maybe God will have mercy on you whenever he brings this shit hole world to an end. Maybe he’ll even show mercy to almost all of you that have been devastated by policies that the JW Organization has in place. But it’s too bad in the way that the bible says what it says about homosexuals and that’s that. So there. The Bible is the authority.

    The Bible is freakin’ awesome. I’ve been obsessed with it since I was a late teen. I’ve also been obsessed with uncovering truths about the world that we live in. And I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago! The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big ass take over that will leave you in shock and awe. I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view. The Bible is REAL. I don’t even read the NWT of the Bible. But the Bible I read says that God disapproves of a gay lifestyle. So, again for those of you that support the lifestyle…you’re just taking one hell of a chance with God. I know a few non-JWs growing up that made a decision not to act on their desires because they felt it was wrong. Now that is a sacrifice!!! Everyone is just obsessed with making sure that they themselves are HAPPY in this selfish world! So simple.

  • May 11, 2016 at 3:36 am
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    Just another thought. But if sexuality is such a massive issue for God – Man being male, woman being female; Why will the annointed females of the 144000 have their gender reassigned to male, upon entering heaven to rule as kings and priests?
    We know that God, Jesus, Angels etc are all male don’t we…. And we know how they all feel about women. (Even down to finding them sexually attractive according to the Genesis account)
    So… God is going to turn all the girls into guys?

    Talk about nuts.
    (Albeit Angelic ones)

    • May 11, 2016 at 7:02 am
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      You can’t say the angels are male. That was so dumb of you to say. The Bible refers to God & angels as “he” just so us stupid humans can get the point of certain things.

      • May 11, 2016 at 8:07 am
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        Yeaaaah. .. how dumb of me.
        Pretty sure God made man in HIS image. Pretty sure the angels came down and had sex with the women in the pre-flood story.
        Pretty certain God is a Patriarchal deity. I.e. Our heavenly Father.
        You can’t dispute this PeterB.

        • May 11, 2016 at 8:29 am
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          Further to above comment PeterB.
          You are presenting yourself as a little manic.
          This might be due to frustration in having your beliefs challenged.
          Whatever the case, I don’t wish to upset you further so I shall decline further comment on this thread.
          Go carefully with the JW’S. I sincerely hope they help you find happiness.
          P n L.

  • May 11, 2016 at 8:54 am
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    @Peter, I also thought that the Bible was awesome but it isn’t. Go to Wikipedia and look up the Jahwist or Yahwist source, the Deuteronomist source, the Priestly source, the Masoretic text, the Latin Vulgate Bible and the Septuagint and then come back here and say how awesome the Bible is.

    I didn’t know anything about the Bible while I was in the “truth” and neither do any of the other Jehovah’s Witnesses know even the least little thing when it comes to how the Bible came to be or the background of the scriptures. If you did even the littlest bit of research on the background of the Bible and how we got it, you would think differently, believe me.

    Do that first and then come back okay? Also, while you are at it, look up the gods that were being worshiped in ancient Canaan (where Abraham and his family were before going into Egypt) and see the similarities between the Canaanite Gods and the God of the Bible.

    Another thing to do is pay attention to what the Israelites were doing in the worship of Jehovah, ie. burning their kids to Jehovah/Baal. Baal is just another word for God (master, owner Insight #1) page 228.

    In Acts 7:43, Stephen said the Hebrews were worshiping Molech during the 40 year wilderness trek and Molech worship was the burning of their firstborn to him. That is the God the Israelites worshiped when they got the law from Jehovah/Baal.

    It’s all in there in the Bible if you pay attention to what it actually says.

  • May 11, 2016 at 9:23 am
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    @PeterB. “The Bible is “Freakin'” awesome ”
    Nice comment Peter, Freakin is merely a substitute for that
    other Anglo Saxon word you seem so fond of.

    Then your reply to Dee2 has had to be cleaned up before
    it was acceptable for publication. You pride yourself on
    using scriptures to support your point.

    So I suggest your comments could be improved by checking
    out what the Bible says about acceptable language. I won’t
    Insult a man of your advanced knowledge by citing texts for
    you to look up. ( studied with 7 religions already very impressive)

    Only another estimated 31,993 Christian religions to go Peter
    Good luck in your search,

    I’m with Daniel Roberts now, no more replies from me.

  • May 11, 2016 at 2:15 pm
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    @Caroline
    I read everything Wikipedia had to offer on everything you gave me to look up. I’m not impressed. If you read it all again you might not be impressed either.

  • May 11, 2016 at 6:25 pm
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    Personally, I believe nothing anyone writes or shows PeterB will be much use to a hardcore “Jehovah’s Witness apologist”.

    Like a teenager it might be better to let him find out for himself and after he is kicked to the curb by his new found “friends” maybe he will be more inclined to listen.

    However, as of now he is not only non-receptive to given proofs but downright arrogant and I will not feed his egomania anymore. Ta Ta TROLL!

    • May 12, 2016 at 2:07 am
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      @Big B, I can see you are right about PeterB. He doesn’t know anything about the Bible or the background of the Watchtower Society and as long as he is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, he never will.

      People believe what they want to believe and when it comes to facts, they refuse to look at them for fear of finding out they were wrong.

  • May 12, 2016 at 7:28 am
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    @PeterB:

    “I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago!”

    – Where in the Bible is this stated?
    – What were the views/teachings regarding this of the 7 denominations with whom you studied?

    “The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big a** take over that will leave you in shock and awe.”

    – Where in the Bible is this stated?
    – What were the views/teachings regarding this of the 7 denominations with whom you studied?

  • May 12, 2016 at 7:30 am
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    @PeterB:

    “I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view.”

    Is the book of Daniel amazingly accurate?

    – The author of Daniel accurately refers to two campaigns which Antiochus Epiphanes (Antiochus IV), the Seleucid king of Syria, led against Egypt, but then speaks of a third, after which Antiochus was predicted to die on the coast of Palestine (Daniel 11:40-45). This did not happen. Whereas the writer had been accurate up to 165 BCE, from that point on he revealed ignorance of the movements of Antiochus Epiphanes, so betraying the fact that he was writing prophecy and not history.

    The prediction concerning Antiochus’s final battle and place of death “between the sea and the holy mountain” (Daniel 11:45) was inaccurate, and so we know that this prophecy was completed before the news of his death reached Jerusalem. Antiochus died in Persia, in late 164 BCE.

    Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164 BCE.

    – Daniel 1:1-2 says that Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem and took away exiles and spoils in Jehoiakim’s third year. However, there is no record elsewhere of such an event, in the Bible or the Babylonian Chronicle both of which indicate that Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar for the first time in 597 BCE.

    – According to Daniel 2:28, God give a revelation concerning “what will happen at the end of days” to gentile (thus pagan) rulers. If the effect of the various events was so great on the kings, why is there no evidence outside the Bible of this effect?

    – There is no historical merit to the stories of Babylonian and Persian kings acknowledging or adopting the God of the Jews who lived in exile among them.

    – In the case of “Darius the Mede,” whose laws could not be altered, why wasn’t his decree, according to Daniel 6:26,carried out by succeeding kings?

    – There is no place in history for “Darius the Mede”:
    The city of Babylon was taken over by the Persians in 539, and this leads to another problem in the book of Daniel, which says the city fell to “Darius the Mede.” Chapters 6 and 9 are dated in his reign, but no such figure has been found in any of the texts from the ancient Near East, and indeed there is no place in history for the reign of such a person. Nabonidus was succeeded immediately by Cyrus the Persian, who is the last king to be named in Daniel (1:21 and 10:1).

    – Other claims by the book of Daniel which are at odds with historical fact:

    * It depicts the Babylonians, Medes, Persians, and Greeks as four consecutive empires (chapter 2); however, some of those states existed concurrently. In reality, the Median and Babylonian kingdoms coexisted until the Medians were conquered about 550 BCE and the Babylonians were conquered in 539, both by the Persians.

    * It talks about Nebuchadnezzar being exiled from his kingdom (chapter 4); this probably reflects events involving the last king of Babylon, Nabonidus, who took a “leave of absence” from being king and lived in an oasis on the Arabian peninsula.

    * It depicts Belshazzar as the last king of Babylon (chapter 5); this is an error.Belshazzar was not the son of Nebuchadnezzar and was never called king in the Babylonian records, but served only as a sort of prince regent for a time. He was defeated by Cyrus, not by Darius.

    * Daniel 5:31 records how “Darius the Mede” conquered Babylon and killed king Belshazzar. This belief probably arose out of many predictions in Isaiah and Jeremiah that Babylon would fall to the Medes. In reality, the Median and Babylonian kingdoms coexisted until the Medians were conquered about 550 BCE and the Babylonians were conquered in 539, both by the Persians. Darius was not a Median king. Apparently the later Persian king “Darius the Great” was confused by the author(s) with Astyages, the last Median king.

    * Daniel 1:4 refers to the “Chaldeans” as a priestly class in Babylon. This term did not attain this meaning until much later than the 6th century.

    Daniel’s purported setting during the Babylonian exile, according to chapter 4, is not plausible. Someone living in the Babylonian exile would not have made these kinds of mistakes. The book must be from a later era. In fact, it employs Greek loan words – e.g., sumfoniah or “bagpipes,” related to the English word “symphony,” appears in Daniel 3:5, which establishes that someone wrote Daniel during the Greek period – the Greek occupation of the area did not occur until the 4th century BCE.

    One of the musical instruments mentioned in Daniel 3:5 and in subsequent passages did not exist until it was developed in 2nd century BCE Greece.

    Daniel 11:31 (and elsewhere) refers to “the abominable thing that causes desolation.” This appears to refer to the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 167 BCE, and would indicate that the book was written later than that date.

  • May 12, 2016 at 7:35 am
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    @PeterB cont’d:

    – The book of Daniel tells of Daniel’s adventures under two Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, a Median king Darius who happens to be unknown to history, a Persian king Cyrus – that’s a whole lot of years! You have the chronology of more than a century being telescoped here.

    – Nothing is known historically of a Daniel in Babylon:
    The first six chapters are stories about Daniel, speaking of him in the third person, and so are anonymous as to authorship. Daniel speaks in the first person in chapters 7-12, and since he dates his visions in the reigns of Belshazzar and Cyrus, the traditional view has been that this sixth-century character was responsible for the whole book. However, nothing is known historically of a Daniel in Babylon. There may well have been a Daniel in exile around whom these legends grew up, although we know nothing more about him.

    About 180 BCE, Jeshua ben Sira listed the heroes of the Jewish faith, including “Enoch, Noah and Abraham through to Nehemiah;” Daniel is not mentioned – presumably because Jeshua is unaware of him. This would indicate that the book of Daniel was written after that time.

    – Chapter 12 discusses the dead being resurrected, judged, and taken to either heaven and hell. At the time of Daniel, the Jews believed that all persons went to Sheol after death. The concept of heaven and hell was introduced centuries later by the Greeks. It did not appear in Israel until the time of the Maccabean revolt.

    – In the final chapter of Daniel, the author describes the “end of history” – a resurrection of the dead, judgment and transfer the resurrected dead to heaven or hell. According to Daniel 12:12, these events would happen during approximately three years (1335 days) following the “abomination of desolation” (the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jewish temple in 167 BCE). Some Bible scholars have interpreted this period of time as occupying many millennia. But this is clearly not a valid interpretation, because Daniel 12:12 refers to people who “wait and live to see the completion of the interval.”

    – Daniel employed creative ingenuity in order to make Jeremiah’s prophecy work. Jeremiah prophesied early in the sixth century, he promised seventy years of Babylonian world domination beginning in 605, followed by punishment of the Babylonians and a restoration of Israel. However, an author, such as the writer of Daniel who was writing between 167 and 164BCE would have had good reason to study that passage carefully. For Jeremiah had promised an ultimate, permanent restoration of Israel after seventy years; yet people were now—under Antiochus IV—unable to worship in Jerusalem, and under pain of death for observing basic Jewish practices.

    Thus, either Jeremiah’s prophecy was false, or else what he said must have a hidden meaning—one that only close study could reveal. The author of Daniel chose the latter approach, revealing this esoteric meaning: (Daniel 9:21-22, 24). The author here reinterprets the prophecy of Jeremiah as if the wordshiv’im in the phrase “seventy years” were tacitly repeated and revocalized:shavu’im shiv’im, “seventy weeks” of years, namely 70 x 7 = 490 years. Thus, the author grants this central prophecy of Jeremiah a 420-year extension! This reading enables Jeremiah’s oracle to remain a true prophecy, and Jeremiah a prophet of truth. Certainly, the reading in Daniel is not what Jeremiah meant since Israel’s long desolation did not end after the 420-year extension – Jeremiah’s prophecy was false and so was Daniel’s.

    – The earth is described as flat in Daniel 4:11.

    – The king tried to think of a way to avoid executing Daniel, but was unsuccessful. (He probably didn’t think too hard, because there was a simple solution to the problem. If the lions were over-fed, they would have lost interest in munching on Daniel). Daniel was thrown in to the pit, but survived. He credited an angel with shutting the lions’ mouths.

    The book of Daniel is mainly a history of past events, not a prophecy of the future.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/daniel1.htm

    https://ad1914.com/2015/10/27/the-babylonian-exile-shaped-the-future-of-prophetic-speculation-doug-mason/

  • May 12, 2016 at 7:36 am
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    @PeterB cont’d:

    Given the errors/historical inaccuracies in the book of Daniel, it is hazardous to claim that the book directly refers to events of one’s own day. The Watchtower’s (WT) failed predictions based on the book of Daniel certainly proves this:

    The WT concluded that the “king of the south” in Daniel 11 is fulfilled in Britain and America, and “the king of the north” in the Soviet Union. (Your Will Be Done On Earth 1958, pp 263 & 278)

    In their Your Will Be Done book, the WT stated:
    – …the Soviet Union, the Communist power, that since it seized power in Russia in 1917, has held world domination as its aim to this day (i.e. up to 1958 at the time of the book’s publication).
    (p. 278)

    – Down to the ‘time of the end’ at Armageddon there will be competitive coexistence between the ‘two kings’. (p. 297)

    – Jehovah’s angel foretold further aggressions by the Communist king of the north before his end at Armageddon. (p. 300)

    – The Soviet Union will gain control of most of the world and its wealth and resources including oil.
    (pp 297, 303)

    – The Soviet Union will then be terrified by reports issued by the WT and initiate an attack against JWs. (pp 304-305)

    – Finally the Soviet Union and America will join forces to attack the JWs which leads to the annihilation of both America and the Soviet Union. (pp 306-307)

    – Billions of people on earth who are not JWs will at that time be destroyed. (p. 347)

    Despite predictions that the Soviet Union will competitively exist until Armageddon, and will fall at that time after aggressions against the rest of the world, the Soviet Union is now defunct and has fragmented into a Commonwealth of Independent States and former Soviet republics.

    In a previous WT book called The New World (1942) “The king of the north” was quite different and “included the Central Powers, or imperial Germany, Roman-Catholic Austria-Hungary, Roman Catholic Italy and Vatican…Japan…” (p. 324)

    An even earlier WT book called Thy Kingdom Come (1891) applied the latter part of Daniel chapter 11 to the Napoleonic period in 1799.

    http://ed5015.tripod.com/JwKingOfTheNorth25.html

    The WT’s multiple failed predictions based on the book of Daniel have however served to prove that the prophecy in Daniel 11 is not a valid prophecy since, for prophecy to be valid, it must be clear and unambiguous. It must not allow for a multitude of possible events.

  • May 12, 2016 at 7:38 am
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    @PeterB:

    “So he(Satan) decided to switch things up a bit.”

    Was it Satan who decided to switch things up a bit or God?

    According to the Bible Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong when they sinned, they did not know good from evil until AFTER they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was only AFTER the two ate from the forbidden tree that they developed a moral sense yet in a huff God decided that he would let Satan rule in his stead for a while?

    Was that just/merciful given Adam & Eve’s limitation (lacking moral sense, not able to distinguish right from wrong) and considering the fact that courts around the world show mercy to those who do not know right from wrong? A “Not Criminally Responsible” designation is a fundamental principle of many justice systems. Accused persons must have the capacity to understand that what they did was wrong – otherwise they cannot be found guilty of an offence; such persons are not fit subjects for retribution or punishment:

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/vince-lis-request-for-more-freedom-okd-by-manitoba-review-board/ar-BBq1kDE?ocid=mailsignout

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/five-year-old-boy-investigated-for-rape-in-manchester-is-one-of-70-children-under-10-to-be-accused-of-sex-attacks/ar-AAgJl0U?li=AAggNb9

    Why didn’t God allow Adam & Eve to die in the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit just like he promised so that they wouldn’t pass on sin to their descendants?

    According to the bible God destroyed all the wicked people during the flood of Noah’s day and left only the righteous. Couldn’t God have done similarly with Adam & Eve? Couldn’t he have put Adam & Eve to death and keep repeating the process until he found a human pair who would obey before allowing them to have children and sin to enter the world?

    Couldn’t God have prevented evil from entering the world in the first place in the case of Adam and Eve and still leave free will in tact? Sin entered the world because God chose to put the tree of the knowledge of good and bad where Adam and Eve, who at the time had no concept of good and evil, could access it. Had God chosen to put the tree out of Adam’s and Eve’s reach, no fruit eaten and thus sin does not enter, while leaving free will intact. God could also have chosen not to make that tree at all too. After all, being all-knowing, God would have known the choice Adam and Eve were going to make especially given the fact that they were lacking in moral sense and did not know how to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil.

    • May 12, 2016 at 10:25 am
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      Yes. Why didn’t God put a child-proof cap on the tree of knowledge if it was so bad for Adam and Eve to get into? That would have prevented the whole debacle called the world in the first place. Right? Good Question, but no real answer will ever come of it, because we aren’t God in the first place. Lot’s of wasted hours of theologians time over that one! It doesn’t really matter after all; we’re all here now for what it’s worth. The world is what it is. I just enjoy the good in the world, and manage the best I can with the bad situations to turn them into good. It makes for a much happier life than wringing my hands about something I have completely NO control over. It was almost comical. When I would say this to the elders at my ‘bible study’ it really frustrated them to no end. They just couldn’t addle me with doom, gloom, and fear when I finally made my mind up that I was going to be just fine without their oversight. That was the best feeling to know that no matter what they said or did, it really doesn’t matter. I could be free in my mind to believe what I want. That arena belongs to me and me alone. OK, I digress.

      • May 12, 2016 at 11:42 am
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        “The world is what it is.”
        That’s exactly the point Searcher!

        I find it rather absurd that Adam & Eve had a limitation – lacking in moral sense, unable to distinguish right from wrong – yet in a huff God decided that he would let Satan rule in his stead for a while. The explanations offered by the Bible and theologians are inadequate and certainly prove that the Bible is not a divinely inspired book but the ideas of men just like ourselves.

        Indeed, “the world is what it is”, the world is just what we see around us, and that’s all that can be said.

        • May 13, 2016 at 9:43 am
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          Sorry, I meant to say that I agree with you before my diatribe.

  • May 12, 2016 at 9:10 am
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    The following comment is awaiting moderation:

    @PeterB – PART 1:

    “I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view.”

    Is the book of Daniel amazingly accurate?

    – The author of Daniel accurately refers to two campaigns which Antiochus Epiphanes (Antiochus IV), the Seleucid king of Syria, led against Egypt, but then speaks of a third, after which Antiochus was predicted to die on the coast of Palestine (Daniel 11:40-45). This did not happen. Whereas the writer had been accurate up to 165 BCE, from that point on he revealed ignorance of the movements of Antiochus Epiphanes, so betraying the fact that he was writing prophecy and not history.

    The prediction concerning Antiochus’s final battle and place of death “between the sea and the holy mountain” (Daniel 11:45) was inaccurate, and so we know that this prophecy was completed before the news of his death reached Jerusalem. Antiochus died in Persia, in late 164 BCE.

    Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164 BCE.

    – Daniel 1:1-2 says that Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem and took away exiles and spoils in Jehoiakim’s third year. However, there is no record elsewhere of such an event, in the Bible or the Babylonian Chronicle both of which indicate that Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar for the first time in 597 BCE.

    – According to Daniel 2:28, God give a revelation concerning “what will happen at the end of days” to gentile (thus pagan) rulers. If the effect of the various events was so great on the kings, why is there no evidence outside the Bible of this effect?

    – There is no historical merit to the stories of Babylonian and Persian kings acknowledging or adopting the God of the Jews who lived in exile among them.

    – In the case of “Darius the Mede,” whose laws could not be altered, why wasn’t his decree, according to Daniel 6:26,carried out by succeeding kings?

    – There is no place in history for “Darius the Mede”:
    The city of Babylon was taken over by the Persians in 539, and this leads to another problem in the book of Daniel, which says the city fell to “Darius the Mede.” Chapters 6 and 9 are dated in his reign, but no such figure has been found in any of the texts from the ancient Near East, and indeed there is no place in history for the reign of such a person. Nabonidus was succeeded immediately by Cyrus the Persian, who is the last king to be named in Daniel (1:21 and 10:1).

  • May 12, 2016 at 12:07 pm
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    Many good things to think about you all. But, I believe that most of you are at a point where ( ok not let’s play my “IF” game ) even if God ( IF there is one ) made you believe one special night by personally proving to you that he exists and that the Bible is accurate, and that JWs are the chosen Org, and that the Org will be making ALL THE CHANGES they need to make in order to get your approval…I believe you all would say in the back of your mind ( even as God is sitting right next to you ) “Crap! OMG, now I have to do something about this? I don’t want to HAVE to do ANYTHING! I was loving my complete freedom from care when it comes to God! CRAAAAAP!”

    • May 12, 2016 at 3:26 pm
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      PeterB,

      My conscience is clear, I don’t have anything to justify “if” God was going to ask me at the end of it all. On the other hand the WT has a lot of answering up to do.

      If God chose this religion, then why the hell did he give so many bad signals that has cost the lives of so many devoted members? Did he really come & inspect in 1914? If so, then why has “this generation” extended to 3 generations passing & counting since that inspection?

      Remember the “millions now living were never meant to die” according cult leader Rutherford. Yet they have all died. Wouldn’t that have been the same as the lie satan told Eve?… “you positively will not die”.

      What about the no blood doctrine that seemed to have come about in 1945 after WW2, then became a disfellowshipping offence. THE UNTOLD NUMBER OF LIVES SACRIFICED at the orders of the next cult leader, Nathan Knorr (?) & his regime. But from 1982 on (because of legal reasons) this death sentence has conveniently been adjusted to allow blood fractions. Tell me if there is not blood on the hands of these Cult leaders?

      Remember the “youths who put God first” brochure….innocent children dying over a harsh doctrine that tore families apart. The death of those poor little souls means nothing now & rumour has it that they are planning more changes with that doctrine.

      Then we have the child rape policies that they refuse to budge on & have been shown up to be utterly ridiculous to the Australian Royal Commission. A policy that tacks itself to the old laws. A policy that leads to distrust towards the professional help needed from the superior authorities. A policy that leads to the lack of support through shunning which often leads to depression & worse suicide (or attempted).

      Sorry Peter but you are warning the wrong people about Gods judgement. After all, we’re not the ones implementing our flipflop laws that are often life-threatening then demanding obedience with the message; do or die!

      I could go on & on with other legalistic matters that the cult leaders have placed on to the members but it’s all here & other websites if you want to open your mind to the possibility that you are in a satanic operated death cult.

    • May 12, 2016 at 3:59 pm
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      PeterB:

      History shows that mankind’s actions have caused major harmful events on a worldwide scale and so there is always an expectation for such events. I get the impression however, that you seem to be of the opinion that if any such major event should occur it has Biblical significance and so you are consumed with trying to impute Biblical significance to particular events which you believe will happen. The events which you are anticipating could very well happen, however, it is one thing to believe that these events will happen and another thing to attempt to fit these anticipated events to so-called Bible “prophecy”.

      As I have proven above, attempting to fit world events to so-called Bible “prophecy” such as is claimed to be written in the book of Daniel is a VERY BAD IDEA. In other words, the events which you anticipate could very well occur but they would have no Biblical significance since the book of Daniel is not historically accurate, it contains failed prophecies regarding past events, it does not contain predictions of mankind’s future and therefore cannot be used for this purpose.

      • May 12, 2016 at 4:13 pm
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        William Miller
        Nelson Barbour
        Charles Russell
        Joseph Ruhtherford
        Nathan Knorr
        Fred Franz

        What do they all have in common? They all presumed to believe that they had the proper interpretation of scripture and knew with certainty that the end would come in their lifetime. And what did they all do? They all wasted their lives waiting for something that never arrived. Even in Rutherford’s own words ‘he made an ass of himself.’

        There have always been doomsday cults and believers waiting for the end of all things and they have all wasted their lives and made asses of themselves. I choose not to be one of them. But each one can make their own choice in this regard. But as the old saying goes ‘those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.’

        WS

    • May 13, 2016 at 9:42 am
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      Yeah PeterB? And if my grandma had wheels, then she would be a bicycle. CRAAAAAP!!!

      This remark was basically meant to show how unrealistic the chain that you described actually is. None of the chain of events has any evidence or proof of happening. It’s only imagination and speculation. Doesn’t lend too much proof that JW’s are the one and only true religion. What Grace, Dee and WinstonSmith have to say has merit proof. It’s history and fact about the Watchtower. The GB cannot cover that up or change it no matter how hard they try. It’s out there, and it’s RECORDED history about the WTBTS.

      I don’t mean this to be harsh or to belittle you in any way. I really don’t want to belittle anyone. I say this because you and so many others that may have the opportunity to read this forum and decide for themselves what is real and what is lies. That is to think about their own beliefs concerning what the Watchtower cult propaganda machine has published and conveniently updated over the years (including their ever-changing version of the bible). However, people believe what they want to believe. I choose to believe the Watchtower is a facade and a ruse for power hungry, control-freak leaders. My conclusion is based on the published facts that I have seen from many more sources other than the Watchtower and the Watchtower publications themselves.

      I wish you the best.

  • May 12, 2016 at 12:46 pm
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    Anyone watched Lucifer on tv? Just asking. lol

    • May 12, 2016 at 4:14 pm
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      I have seen Will Ferrell portray Lucifer on SNL. Does that count?

      WS

      • May 12, 2016 at 5:23 pm
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        Lol I haven’t seen that. I did enjoy the first season of Lucifer though. Thoroughly nice chap… British you know.

  • May 14, 2016 at 10:11 am
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    I’m sorry. There was nothing wrong with that video. They were reaffirming to them their position in a world of moral decline. Whether you are a Christian Lloyd or not the Gospel isn’t supposed to be a popular message. Proclaiming truth in any instance even other than religion isn’t popular. Also, the liberals have gotten us to misuse the terms listed as -phobic. This video didn’t promote any FEAR of anything. Phobic would be a misnomer. As a homosexual myself who doesn’t practice I didn’t see anything wrong with this video.

    • May 14, 2016 at 11:40 am
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      Right! And when the Nazis produced anti-Jewish media in the 1930’s and 1940’s (or when Neo-Nazis do it today) they were just reaffirming their position. And when the Ku Klux Klan advocates against blacks in the USA, they are doing the same thing. I am glad that is cleared up.

      How about we say they have a right to their intolerant views and to express them, even to their children, but we also have a right to speak out against the intolerance and hatred.

      WS

      • May 14, 2016 at 6:32 pm
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        Yes because I’m sure putting Jews to death wishing death of them and eradicating them and putting black peoples to death is the exact same as saying we believe in one man and woman and explain to them what we believe. Yes same thing. . Liberal logic.

        • May 14, 2016 at 8:08 pm
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          It’s certainly curious to hear about a self- proclaimed homosexual who doesn’t practice homosexuality but who believes in one man and woman.

          • May 15, 2016 at 1:11 am
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            I’m sure just like those who are pedophiles who know its wrong. They believe 1 Cor 6:9-11. They believe the bible and I think it’s great. So I agree with them on everything? And yes I don’t agree with gay marriage. But what I can’t stand is everyone labeling you some negative term because you don’t agree with something. Hey Jesus said it would be like
            This in the last day. And it’s not a homophobic video it’s them explain that “men who lie with me will not inherit Gods kingdom”. That’s just what they believe. There was nothing homophobic about this video.

            And your analogy of it being the same (which was terribly done by the way) is not the same. God won’t starve them and line them up and hang them and gas chamber them. Again crappy logic. Everyone has a choice. Jews didn’t. I don’t agree with the JWs about who will and will
            Not make it to paradise because it completely contradicts their “righteous and unrighteous” ressurection theory.

        • May 14, 2016 at 8:18 pm
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          BTW, in the video, the children are taught that homosexuals won’t make it into the Paradise Earth……….I wonder if that will happen because the God of the JWs will eradicate homosexuals from the earth and put them to death?………..hmmmmm………..it seems it just might be the same thing after all.

  • May 15, 2016 at 7:37 am
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    Chris:

    “Hey Jesus said it would be like
    This in the last day.”

    – What do you mean by “like This”? What does “This” refer to?
    – Where did Jesus make such a statement?
    – When would “the last day” be? Are we in “the last day” now?
    ______

    “…..men who lie with me will not inherit Gods kingdom”.

    – So what then, will become of/what will happen to those men who lie with men since they will not inherit God’s kingdom?
    ______

    “God won’t starve them and line them up and hang them and gas chamber them. Again crappy logic.”

    – So what will God do to homosexuals then?
    ______

    “I don’t agree with the JWs about who will and will Not make it to paradise because it completely contradicts their “righteous and unrighteous” ressurection theory.”

    – As I recall, according to JW theology, EVERYONE – homosexual or not – who dies BEFORE Armageddon strikes will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth. So one wonders why the JWs didn’t state this in the video.

    – When persons who were homosexuals are resurrected on the Paradise Earth will they stop being homosexuals? If they do, how will this happen? If they don’t, what will be their fate/what will happen to them?

  • May 15, 2016 at 7:56 am
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    Chris:

    When the righteous and the unrighteous (homosexuals will fall into this group, according to you) are resurrected on the Paradise Earth:
    – What will be the fate of the righteous?
    – What will be the fate of the unrighteous?

    • May 15, 2016 at 8:32 am
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      Chris:

      Additionally, let me not assume anything:

      – Where will the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous take place?

    • May 15, 2016 at 8:32 am
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      Chris:

      Additionally, let me not assume anything:

      – Where will the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous take place?

    • May 15, 2016 at 12:33 pm
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      Dee

      I’m not a JW. We believe ALL of mankind will be resurrected Gay or not. We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life. Everyone else will be resurrected during the Millennial Age. We do not believe God is judging the world of mankind in the Gospel Age. All will come out of the grave. The JWs have inserted the word “a Memorial” infront of the word “tombs” in John 5:28,29 to prove their doctrine that not everyone will be resurrected but only those in God’s Memory.

      I’m a Bible Student. Not a JW they have a problem with switching the word “ALL” with “All sorts of”. That’s so wrong.

      • May 15, 2016 at 1:51 pm
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        Chris,

        I note that you did not answer any of my questions above.

        Anyway, if “ALL of mankind will be resurrected Gay or not. We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life. Everyone else will be resurrected during the Millennial Age. We do not believe God is judging the world of mankind in the Gospel Age. All will come out of the grave”,

        – then as per your other comments above, how can you claim that “men who lie with men will not inherit God’s kingdom”?

        – Also, where will this resurrection take place?

        *******
        Do you anticipate that homosexuals who will be resurrected will cease practicing homosexuality?
        If so, how will this happen?

        What if the homosexuals who will be resurrected do not cease practicing homosexuality? What will their fate be?

        ********
        “We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life.”

        – What exactly does this mean?

        – What if there are homosexuals among the Church (Bride Class)?

        *******
        You only mentioned homosexuals who die and whose fate will be a resurrection according to your theology. What about homosexuals who do not die but who are alive AT THE THE TIME Armageddon strikes/ when Jesus comes? What will their fate be?

        • May 15, 2016 at 7:14 pm
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          Dee.

          Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today. In this Gospel Age only the Bride class is on trial for life. God is not dealing with the world of mankind right now. He is only calling out the bride whom he will use to bless the world as promised by Abraham “in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed”.

          Armageddon the the social collapse and complete anarchy before the Millennium. Not a war of God on us. It will be social and civil unrest. Not a way for second death as JWs claim. They believe it is final on them. However, they haven’t sinned against the Holy Spirit therefore they will be resurrected.

          – No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.

          – the dead will be resurrected on earth. Else wise how can the 144,000 rule over or on the earth?

          Yes people will die in Armageddon. But this is not a final judgement. Death aquits us of our sins. They’ve died and now they will be resurrected. The Bride will be in heaven with Christ. Mankind will walk up the way of holiness. The bible tells us at Isaiav 26:9 “when your judgments come upon the earth ALL THE INHABITANTS WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS”. the millennium is a learning process for the world of mankind.

          And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.

          You can email me at Johnsc11@aol.com

          I hate typing on these forums.

  • May 15, 2016 at 8:06 am
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    I can’t wait until paradise comes! Then those who were gay that are ressurected won’t have to feel whatever it is they have to go through in this imperfect sinful world. Being gay is just a imperfection in some people DNA, Jehovah didn’t create us to be gay. If he did then he wouldn’t have told Adam and EVE to “become many and fill the earth”. It is hard for gay people to accept the truth about how God really feels about homosexuals, because they don’t want to accept the fact that they are wrong because they are proud of there homosexuality. Or they don’t believe that God doesn’t accept them because he created them that way. But as a Christian’s we know that those ways of thinking are wrong, but Jehovah WILL NOT make people do the right thing, whether being homo or changing some other aspect of ones life, then we wouldn’t have free will.

    • May 15, 2016 at 8:41 am
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      Daniel Bonawitt:

      “I can’t wait until paradise comes! Then those who were gay that are ressurected won’t have to feel whatever it is they have to go through in this imperfect sinful world.”

      – It seems you are assuming that all gays will die so that they can be resurrected?

      – What will happen to those homosexuals who DO NOT DIE BEFORE the Paradise Earth comes but who are alive AT THE TIME Armageddon strikes?

      – How will Paradise correct/get rid of homosexuality?

      *******

      “Being gay is just a imperfection in some people DNA…….”.

      – How did this “imperfection in some people DNA” come about? What mechanism is responsible for this “imperfection in some people DNA”?

      • May 15, 2016 at 9:31 am
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        1) no I wasn’t assuming all gays will die before Armageddon, just saying those you do happen to die before will be resurrected and know the what it feels like without the imperfection of sin. John 5: 28,29

        2) when Armageddon comes those who die in it won’t be resurrected, their fate is sealed. The bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah. All those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected either. They had a chance to listen to the message and they ignored it, people will have plenty of time to hear but most won’t listen because of their own selfishness.

        3) Jehovah created Adam and Eve as perfect humans, he doesn’t change and neither does his will, once humans are perfect then they won’t have sin.

        4) Adam is responsible for all of our imperfections, they bible says at ROM. 5:12 “through one man sin has entered the world and through sin death has spread to all men because all have sinned.” So once we are resurrected, or live through Armageddon, then that sin we have now will be no more because Jesus’ sacrafice pays for it.

        • May 15, 2016 at 9:51 am
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          @Daniel, you must realize that during the thousand years that men will all be imperfect still because at the end of that thousand years, there will be another Armageddon where all the “nations” of the earth will gather together against Jehovah and war with him again and then those who Jehovah doesn’t kill then, will be ushered into the paradise.

          Who is to blame during those thousand years for all those who will be wanting to fight against Jehovah at the end of the thousand years, when Satan will be abyssed?

          Think about it?

          • May 15, 2016 at 1:25 pm
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            Yes I know, we will slowly be attain perfection over the 1000 years physically and mentally. Meaning people won’t be dying from natural causes, and our way of reasoning will be adjusted on subjects like homosexuality so that everyone will have to know the truth. But just like Satan, those Angel’s who followed him, also Adam and Eve, people will make there own decisions selfishly or not to serve Jehovah. Rev 20:3 explains that Satan will be let out for a short time after the 1000 yrs until he is thrown into the lake of fire along with the humans who follow him .

        • May 15, 2016 at 12:36 pm
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          Daniel,
          Much of what’s you said is speculation. Where does it say in the bible that those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected? Or those who died in Armageddon.

          1. If the only unforgivable sin is sin against the Holy Spirit how can the world of mankind who doesn’t have the Holy Spirit?

          2. Is only JWs will survive the end then doesn’t teaching that we much join your organization mean that’s your a cult? And don’t say you don’t teach that people who aren’t JW will all die when I have many watchtower quotes to back it up.

          • May 15, 2016 at 12:38 pm
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            Adding to #1 if they haven received the Holy Spirit then how can they not be resurrected?

  • May 15, 2016 at 12:32 pm
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    Daniel Bonawitt:

    According to the video, the Bible states that men who lie with men will not inherit God’s kingdom. So how can you claim that homosexuals will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth?

    *********

    Based on your comments above, it is therefore best then, that homosexuals die BEFORE Armageddon strikes in order to guarantee that they will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth. We had better let the homosexuals know about this.

    ********

    “The bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah. All those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected either.”

    – How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation when, according to the Bible, God made an unconditional covenant with Noah that he will NEVER AGAIN DESTROY THE EARTH by means of a flood (Genesis 9:9-17). God promised to keep this covenant, regardless of what man would subsequently do, regardless of whether man would subsequently continue to sin (unconditional covenant). It is a covenant not only between God and Noah, but between God and every living creature (Genesis 9:9-10, 16).

    It is an “everlasting covenant,” between God and Noah, and every generation after him (Genesis 9:12). It is God’s promise that He will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood (Genesis 9:11).

    – The flood was the world’s first global annihilation, according to the Bible. Was it worth it? Did it accomplish anything given that as you have stated, God will once again carry out another global annihilation by means of Armageddon?

    – The WT claims that there will be animals in Paradise yet you have stated that the bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah/the Flood.

    According to the Bible, God was angry with human wickedness but he destroyed animals as well in the worldwide Flood. The animals had nothing to do with sin, yet they were killed anyway.
    God wiped out every living creature on the planet just to punish the majority of ONE sinful species.
    Dolphins, whales, sharks, fishes, manatees etc., obviously they wouldn’t have drowned – why did God choose to kill the land animals but not the sea animals?

    – If God killed everyone except Noah and his family because of sin why didn’t he just kill Adam and Eve when they sinned back in the Garden of Eden? That was when the death if humans was needed the most to prevent evil from entering the world in the first place so that God would not have to once again carry out another global annihilation at Armageddon.

    Why didn’t God allow Adam and Eve to die in the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit just like he promised, at a time when they had no children, so that they would not have passed sin on to their descendants?

    – According to Genesis 6:5, 13:
    “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually……Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.”

    Babies/infants were destroyed during the Flood – what was their sin/wickedness to deserve this?

    – Is the Flood story in the Bible a reliable story given that the story appears to involve the meshing of two separate stories:
    Genesis 7:15: In the story of the Flood, these verses have Noah collecting two of each species of animals – one male and one female. Genesis 7:2-3 specifies 7 pairs of clean animals and birds and 1 pair of unclean animals. Genesis 7:11 describes water coming from the heavens and from below the ground to generate the worldwideflood. However, Genesis 7:4 describes all of the water falling as rain. Genesis 7:11, 7:17, 7:24 and 8:3 specify different intervals for the flood duration which have no apparent resolution.

    – What proof is there outside of the Bible that there was a global Flood during Noah’s day?

    • May 16, 2016 at 4:03 am
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      ******Correction:
      God wiped out every living creature on the planet………..

      should read:

      God wiped out almost all living creatures on the planet……….

    • May 21, 2016 at 12:34 pm
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      How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation given that, according to the Bible, God made the following promise to Noah at Genesis 8:21:

      “And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; NEITHER WILL I EVER AGAIN DESTROY EVERY LIVING CREATURE as I have done.”

  • May 15, 2016 at 12:35 pm
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    Daniel Bonawitt:

    “They had a chance to listen to the message and they ignored it, people will have plenty of time to hear but most won’t listen because of their own selfishness.

    – Are you aware that approximately 250,000 persons are born each day? How will 8 million JWs (according to WT statistics) reach everyone with the message so that they can choose to listen and avoid being destroyed?

    ********
    “Jehovah created Adam and Eve as perfect humans, he doesn’t change and neither does his will,”

    – What proof do you have that God created Adam and Eve perfect?

    ********
    “……..once humans are perfect then they won’t have sin.”

    – How will humans be made perfect so that they will not sin?

    – What has caused humans to be imperfect so that they sin?

    ********

    “Adam is responsible for all of our imperfections……..”

    – So is it Adam who altered the DNA of his descendants so that
    “imperfection is in some people DNA” which makes them gay?

    *********

    “So once we are resurrected, or live through Armageddon, then that sin we have now will be no more because Jesus’ sacrafice pays for it.”

    – How will this impact the “imperfection in some people DNA” which makes them gay?

    ********

    Resurrected homosexuals are still likely to sin during the millennium reign of Christ given that, according to WT theology, persons won’t be made perfect until the end of the thousand years. What will happen to the homosexuals who sin during that time?

    • May 15, 2016 at 2:31 pm
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      You know if you really want to know the answer to all of your questions you can access all of the information on jw.org. It kind feels like you are not interested in knowing the truth, and I have better things to do than aruge with you and prove points from the bible all day…..especially if you don’t care or believe everything the bible says

  • May 15, 2016 at 2:18 pm
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    Daniel Bonawitt:

    “Yes I know, we will slowly be attain perfection over the 1000 years physically and mentally. Meaning people won’t be dying from natural causes, and our way of reasoning will be adjusted on subjects like homosexuality so that EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO KNOW THE TRUTH.” (emphasis mine).

    – JWs know the truth NOW so how it is that they are not attaining perfection NOW? Why are JWs still dying, why are they still committing sins despite knowing the truth NOW?

    – Is it just simply knowing the truth that will cause a person to stop dying or committing sins in the Paradise Earth?

    – In your other comments above, you stated that “imperfection is in some people DNA” which makes them gay. How will a homosexual’s simply knowing the truth in the Paradise Earth change this situation?

    *******

    “…….Satan will be let out for a short time after the 1000 yrs until he is thrown into the lake of fire along with the humans who follow him.”

    – If any of the resurrected follow Satan, will they be thrown into the lake of fire?

    • May 15, 2016 at 2:37 pm
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      No matter what question you ask or statement you make , if you think is going to get me to change my beliefs or get me to think a different way….its just not going to happen. After all I don’t have questions about what the bible teaches, but it seems like your the one unsure. Try saying a prayer to Jehovah and asking for clarity on one or two of your questions, and try that everyday. Have a good dad

      • May 20, 2016 at 5:36 am
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        Know what? I did this prayer thing, I prayed intensely to Jehovah to let me know what to do. And he showed me clearly to leave JWs. Perhaps you should follow your own advice.

  • May 15, 2016 at 4:30 pm
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    Daniel Bonawitt:

    “You know if you really want to know the answer to all of your questions you can access all of the information on jw.org.”

    It was you who made the comments on this site, so why do I need to go to jw.org, why can’t I get an answer from you?

    ********

    “It kind feels like you are not interested in knowing the truth, and I have better things to do than aruge with you and prove points from the bible all day……”

    I am very much interested in finding out if what you stated in your comments is “the truth” which is why I asked you those questions.
    You have however, not answered my questions but have instead deflected them with your comments above.

    It definitely seems that you do not expect persons to ask questions in order to “Test all things” as the Bible admonishes (1 Thessalonians 5:21), but to instead just gullibly go along with what you have stated and what JWs teach without question.

    *******

    “…….especially if you don’t care or believe everything the bible says.”

    No I do not believe everything which the Bible says and I am sure you don’t either. The Bible states that the earth is flat according to Isaiah 11:12; Job 38:13; Jeremiah 16:19; Daniel 4:11; Matthew 4:8; Revelation 7:1.

    Do you believe this?

    ********

    “No matter what question you ask or statement you make , if you think is going to get me to change my beliefs or get me to think a different way….its just not going to happen.”

    – How is my asking questions based on the comments which you made changing your mind? Changing your mind is entirely up to you, that is your decision. I am here to ask questions based on the comments which you made as I would like to know if what you stated is really “the truth”.

    As I have already stated, it definitely seems that you do not expect persons to ask questions in order to “Test all things” as the Bible admonishes (1 Thessalonians 5:21) but to instead just gullibly go along with what you have stated and what JWs teach without question.

    – Also, I am sure you go preaching trying to change people’s minds so that you can convert them to the JW religion. Why do you do this to persons if you don’t want it done to you?

    *******

    “After all I don’t have questions about what the bible teaches, but it seems like your the one unsure.”

    In addition to the foregoing example of the Bible’s teaching that the earth is flat, the Bible also teaches that the earth is stationary according to Psalms 93:1; 104:5; 96:10.

    I do not agree with this based on scientific evidence which has been provided. Do you agree with these Bible teachings?

    *******

    “Try saying a prayer to Jehovah and asking for clarity on one or two of your questions, and try that everyday.”

    For sure, I am going to pray to God and ask him to clarify whether the earth is flat or if it is stationary as I have never done this before. I will be certain to let you know if I hear anything back from God regarding these questions.

    • May 25, 2016 at 1:07 pm
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      “In addition to the foregoing example of the Bible’s teaching that the earth is flat, the Bible also teaches that the earth is stationary according to Psalms 93:1; 104:5; 96:10.”

      This is not what the Bible says. Why would you assume that the “Earth is firmly established and will not be moved” means that the earth is stationary? Where does the Bible Indicate that this means that the earth doesn’t physically move? Can you prove this this was the view of the Jews? If so why do you hold that this literally means the earth does not move? can’t this simply mean that the earth is fixed in its orbit and not on it’s axis? Why can’t this mean that it is fixed in relation to us being that it always with us and and i don’t wake up in space.

      You’re statement is illogical and is a superficial reasoning on those scriptures. They are generally thrown by atheists who have no deep knowledge of the bible.

      • June 3, 2016 at 12:38 pm
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        @Chris:

        Can you prove that your alternate explanations are what the Jews meant when they wrote these scriptures over 2000 years ago?

        “can’t this simply mean that the earth is fixed in its orbit and not on it’s axis?”
        This is not scientifically true. The earth is NOT fixed in its orbit – it is rotating on its axis while in its orbit so it is NOT fixed in its orbit. It is the orbit that is fixed, not the earth – you are ascribing the characteristics of the orbit to the earth. The earth is never fixed under any circumstances. You are making the Bible say something which it is not saying.

        The Jewish view was that the earth had a foundation and was resting on pillars – i.e., the earth is fixed:

        1 Samuel 2:8
        “For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He set the world on them.”

        Job 38:4
        “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.

        Proverbs 8:29
        When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth.

        Micah 6:2
        “Listen, you mountains, to the indictment of the Lord, And you enduring foundations of the earth…….”

  • May 15, 2016 at 6:47 pm
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    Daniel Bonawitt:

    “1) no I wasn’t assuming all gays will die before Armageddon, just saying those you do happen to die before will be resurrected and know the what it feels like without the imperfection of sin. John 5: 28,29″

    John 5:28-29 states:

    “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil WILL RISE TO BE CONDEMNED.” (emphasis mine).

    According to John 5:28, 29 which you have applied to homosexuals, they (homosexuals) will rise/be resurrected to be condemned. They are not going to live based on this scripture, so how can you claim that they will “know what it feels like without the imperfection of sin”? I imagine that they would have to live in order to be able to know this?

    • May 15, 2016 at 7:28 pm
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      But like I said Dee. Email me Johnsc11@aol.com

      Typing on forums on a cellphone sucks. My laptop at school doesn’t allow us to comment on forums. :)

    • May 16, 2016 at 6:59 am
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      A couple clarifications I’d like to add to this chain that I noticed about it:

      1.) Gay marriage was mentioned at one point. In this argumentation, Gay Marriage is a red hering and not germane to the argument about Watchtower’s condemnation of all homosexuals (whether they are married or not they are still gay).

      2.) Liberals or liberalism. This has been mentioned several times. It’s Straw Man rhetoric. To associate anyone who supports the fact that homosexuals have no control over their sexual orientation and should not be persecuted for it with liberalism is poor argumentation. Personal politics (mine which by the way are conservative-republican) have little bearing on the issue as to whether Watchtower’s video was or was not appropriate.

      WS

      • May 16, 2016 at 8:22 am
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        Winston,
        They don’t condemn homosexuals. I have homosexual tendencies and I have never felt so welcome.

        One thing we have to recognize, is that Bible Students before Rutherford believed that all of mankind would be resurrected. JWs have condemned them.

        I am Bible Student.

        • May 16, 2016 at 4:59 pm
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          Chris,
          By “they” I assume you mean “true” bible students and / or Christians and not JWs? At the end of your comment you say that JWs have condemned them.

          So don’t you feel it is inappropriate of the Watchtower society to teach young children that homosexuals won’t be allowed in the Kingdom, hence condemning them? Who is the watchtower society to pass judgement? Isnt it reserved for God to judge? i.e. Matt 7:1-5.

          WS

          • May 25, 2016 at 2:54 pm
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            No I don’t. The bible wouldn’t condemn homosexuality and teach us to teach others about Gods Ways. Judging is condemning. I have not condemned anyone.

          • June 3, 2016 at 12:46 pm
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            @Chris:

            “I have not condemned anyone.”

            However,
            on May 16, 2016 at 5:59 pm you stated:
            “It seems to me that we consider homosexuality normal because of our society. The fact it is it not normal It is an imperfection that God allows to exist. God said we are not to live that lifestyle.”

            On May 15, 2016 at 1:11 am you stated:

            “I’m sure just like those who are pedophiles who know its wrong. And yes I don’t agree with gay marriage………..Hey Jesus said it would be like This in the last day.”

            On May 15, 2016 at 7:14 pm you stated:

            “No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.

  • May 16, 2016 at 3:07 pm
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    Hi Chris,

    I would like to offer a suggestion should you still be experiencing problems with commenting on forums. Does your mobile phone have a Tethering and Portable Hotspot feature? It should be included in the Settings of your phone or perhaps you could contact your mobile service provider or whoever you obtained your phone from to find out. If your phone has this feature, then you can use it as a Wi-Fi hotspot to connect your laptop to the internet.

    I hope that you will be able to find a solution to your problem as I prefer to respond to you in the forum so that others can benefit from our exchanges or add their comments if they wish.

    ******

    “Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today.”

    – Claiming that homosexuals will not receive a divine penalty now/today but at a future anticipated period instead, does not change the fact that homosexuals are still being discriminated against by your theology.

    What your theology has done is to simply delay/defer/shift THE TIME AT WHICH/WHEN homosexuals will be discriminated against: “we won’t discriminate against homosexuals now, we will do it at a future time”, is what your theology is saying.

    ******

    “No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.

    – Does the Bride Class exist on earth today?

    “The Bride will be in heaven with Christ.”

    – When will the Bride Class be in heaven with Christ? Does this happen all at once or is it over a period of time?

    ******

    “We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected.”
    “the dead will be resurrected on earth.”

    – What will happen to homosexuals when they are resurrected?

    – Will people continue to die or will persons be living forever on the earth at this time?

    – Will people continue to have children at this time?

  • May 16, 2016 at 3:10 pm
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    Hi Chris cont’d,

    “Yes people will die in Armageddon.”

    – Who are the people who will die during Armageddon?

    – Why will they die? What will be the reason for their death?

    – How will they die? Who will put them to death?

    – Will there be persons who will survive Armageddon?
    If so, who are these persons?

    Why do they survive Armageddon and are not killed?

    *******

    “And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.”

    – How will it be possible for the resurrected who do not resist homosexuality to die again when the Bible states that you can only die once?

    ***Hebrews 9:27 New International Version (NIV):

    “Just as people are destined to DIE ONCE, and after that to face judgment”.

    ***Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):

    “The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”

    (emphasis mine).

    • May 16, 2016 at 5:59 pm
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      Dee-

      It’s not a problem with the server or internet its typing all of my thoughts on a cell phone. But I busted out my laptop.

      The Bible is silent when they says how things will happen in the millennium. And atheists and intellectuals like to think they are correct when someone in a religion says “I don’t know.

      You asked “What will happen to homosexuals when they are resurrected” well the same goes for alcoholics, pedophiles and all others that claim they have it in their DNA. If they want to come into harmony with God they will have to abandoned those tendencies. Now we can only speculate since the bible is very silent on “the age to come” how mankind will be brought into harmony with God. Everyone si born with something that they have to fight. But we know that it will not be easy since Rev 2:27 says “and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.”

      The Bible teaches that mankind will walk up the highway of holiness.
      “And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it.” Isaiah 35:8

      You asked “who will die in armageddon.” Remember that the concept of Armageddon being a battle between God an man in which God destroys mankind is a JW theology. According to the Bible it is when mankind goes into complete anarchy. It’s not “oh well she’s a lesbian she’s going to die.” That’s JW’s Armageddon is a better between mankind and themselves. We can already in these days see a huge class war. We have black vs white, native vs foreigner, Christian vs atheist, Muslim against Christian, Male vs female. Eventually this will all clash.

      You asked about how can the homosexuals die again when the bible says we only die one? This reminds be of a question you asked earlier in which your logic was completely off. You asked how can Hod destroy the world AGAIN when he said that he would never again destroy mankind with a flood? Well who says it has to be with a flood? Mankind only dies the ADAMIC death one time. All of mankind is under the Adamic Sentence of death. Jesus’ death guarantees the resurrection for all only one time. Afterwards in the millennium the bible shows that those who do not go into life thereafter is called the Second Death from which there is no resurrection. What’s a second death it not like the first? Jesus only died one time and we are resurrected one time. When we have perfect knowledge and we follow satan at the end of the millennium and we go into the second death then thats it. He will not die a second time.

      Many think that Judgement is the rendering of a verdict. However Isaiah 26:9 says “…When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.” If we are judged heaven or hell at death then how can we learn righteousness?

      When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.

      Isaiah 2:3- Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. HE WILL TEACH US HIS WAYS, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”

      This has not happened yet. This is in the millennium. If judgement after resurrection is a final judgment then why in this scripture is there people saying he will teach them his ways?

      You stated that all our theology has done is shift/defer this process of when homosexuals will be discriminated against.
      -Yes absolutely. God sets the rules not us. When you own a house and someone likes to watch porn on their phones do you allow them to do it because thats just who they are and who are you to judge? Absolutely not. They may have a problem but you don’t have too tolerate it. It seems to me that we consider homosexuality normal because of our society. The fact it is it not normal It is an imperfection that God allows to exist. God said we are not to live that lifestyle and therefore he will in the millennium let them know what is required of them. Those who obey now by not living that lifestyle are deemed overcomes. Now we can only speculate as to when their desires will be removed or if they will be resurrected without these desires. We can only guess. But your question can also be applied to pedophiles in which they believe that their desires are natural and has had them since their youth. Do we consider it discrimination when a 15 year old sleeps with a 28 year old? Why not? Its natural and they say they’ve always felt like that.

      You asked “will people still bear children?” Again we can only speculate.

      We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off. Some even today do not want to believe in a God. They would rather die. But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.

      Isaiah 65:20 “the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.”

      But I must end here i used to debate for days and I don’t usually do this anymore. Too much time and energy. But like I said email me!

  • May 17, 2016 at 6:48 am
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    JW teach us that you can be gay if you just don´t act gay. And a staight JW has to get married if he/she is to horny, because it´s not allowed to masturbate. So what do they expect a homosexual JW to do if he/she have lust? Pray?

  • May 17, 2016 at 7:46 am
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    I love how Watchtower Bible and Tract Society waits till the end of United States President Obama’s presidency’s last term, to release the BECOME JEHOVAH’S FRIEND Lesson 22: One Man, One Woman children’s video. Why did Watchtower wait so long? Do they have fear of United States President Obama and what he would do to them?

    Why is it that a woman in Kentucky and man who creates duck calls can address the issue when it starts, but an organization who believes they have God’s backing cannot join their voices to the woman and man who stand up for God.

    To me, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a follower and not a leader. Instead of being bold, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is in hiding until the very end.

    What a bunch of wimps!

  • May 17, 2016 at 5:31 pm
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    Chris,

    “In this Gospel Age only the Bride class is on trial for life. God is not dealing with the world of mankind right now. He is only calling out the bride……….”

    Where exactly in the Bible is this stated?

    • May 18, 2016 at 5:49 am
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      Good morning,
      Yes Jesus in the Gospel Age is on working with the Bride class ONLY. There is not one scripture that says this directly.Its the plan from beginning to end of this age. You have to look at the plan from the beginning. When Adam and Eve sinned and fell God has been working since then to bring mankind back into harmony with him. He promised Abraham “Through your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.” He first offered the privilege to Israel that they would be kings and priests over the earth IF they were faithful. They would be given the responsibility of blessing the nations. However, Jehovah did not work with any other nation unless it was in his plan such as conquering Caanan. He did not commission them to convert the world to their ways or be doomed. Then after Jesus came and Israel’s exclusive favor was cast off Jehovah opened up the way for Gentiles to be “grafted in” and be given the chance to be part of the bride and uplift mankind out of sin and imperfection. He does not commission us to convert the world but to call out his sheep. He is calling out a people for his name. Not converting the world of mankind. We preach so can find those who will respond and run the race for the mark of the prize of the high calling.

      One way we can see this in the scriptures is the Day of Atonement. For 6 days the priests that were inside the tabernacle were being developed for their priestly duties. The camp which represents the world of mankind was not dealt with. On the 7th day there went out into the camp (representing the world of mankind) and blessed them just as the priests will do in the 7th day (millennium).

      If Jehovah was working with everyone then this life would be the only test for everyone and would defeat the purpose of the millennium. our reward would be at the end of the age and not the millennium. Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?

      • May 18, 2016 at 12:21 pm
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        Chris:

        “Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?”

        – Is it God or Satan who is testing us now? Is it God or Satan who will be testing us at the end of the millennium?

        – Will the Bride Class that is being called out right now, and who according to your theology, goes to heaven, also be tested at the end of the millennium?

        If not, why not?

        • May 18, 2016 at 5:57 pm
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          God is letting us be tested. But Jesus only taughg second death to his followers. The only unforgivable sin in the bible is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. How can the world sin against what they don’t have? The bible says that there is no forgiveness now or in the AGE TO COME. So obviously people will sin in the age to come.

          We believe there I only one calling that Jesus falls us to. That’s heaven. The JWs have shifter the Great Crowd from heaven to earth in 1935. We believe Jesus is calling those to a heavenly hope. We believe that those who do not make the 144,000 (because not everyone wins the race) will fall into two different places: Great Company or Second Death. So no not only 144,000 are in heaven.

          Caroline. Read closer. It’s all there. The whole theme of the Bible is ransom and restitution. Not turn or burn.

          • May 18, 2016 at 5:59 pm
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            Clarification: there is
            No forgiveness now or in the age to come for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

            That Jesus Calls us to**

      • May 18, 2016 at 3:21 pm
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        @Chris, where in the Bible did you find all of what you were saying? I don’t see any scriptures.

  • May 18, 2016 at 6:52 pm
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    Chris,

    I note that you did not answer the following question, so I am asking it again, if you don’t mind:

    Will the Bride Class (same as the 144,000 according to your theology) that is being called out right now, be tested at the end of the millennium?

    If not, why not?

    • May 18, 2016 at 7:06 pm
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      Dee. forgive me for not answering all your questions as you seem have to so many.

      No they will not be tested again at the end of the millennium. Why? Because they are the overcomeers of the Gospel Age. They are tried true and faithful. And the bible says that second death has no power over them. They have been tried and will receive the crown of life in their resurrection

      Rev 20:6
      “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

  • May 18, 2016 at 9:34 pm
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    Chris,

    So, according to your theology persons (including homosexuals) who do not pass the Gospel Age test instigated by Satan and allowed by God, will have the opportunity to be tested again at the end of the millennium.

    Why test persons a second time – if they didn’t pass the test the first time, what is going to make them pass the test the second time?

    *******
    “God is letting us be tested.”

    Nice to see God and his arch-nemesis, Satan, collaborating and working together. It doesn’t seem that things are so bad between them after all.

    • May 19, 2016 at 3:09 am
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      It’s not a second chance. That’s what people don’t get. Many dont know God or are blinded by the God of this age. They don’t know the truth. Like I’ve said before only those who are going to be kings and priests are being developed. Not the world of mankind. Christendom has this belief that we must accept now or burn in hell. If Jesus comes back to judge guilty or not guilty why would we need the millennium?. These questions can be answered in every other post. Isaiah 26:9 shows that during judgement the woRld will learn RIGHTEOUNESS. I’ve also shown the highway of holiness that people will pass on. They will be unblinded and taught the truth for 1000 years. This is why Satan is let out again at the end of the 1000 years. If it was only good people that make it to the millennium why would God allow them to be deceived l/test twice? Unless it’s manys for toe opportunity while knowing the truth for the first time.

      I can’t keep going back and forth. If you’d like I can send you a copy of the The Divine Plan of the Ages.

      • May 19, 2016 at 6:30 am
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        Chris,
        I am already familiar with the information in The Divine Plan of the Ages.

        “Many dont know God or are blinded by the God of this age. They don’t know the truth.”

        – So, is it that God is allowing Satan to ONLY do selective testing during the Gospel Age, so that Satan ONLY tests those persons who know “the truth” during the Gospel Age?

        – What if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and dies as a homosexual before the millennium starts – will this person be resurrected?

        – What if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and this person is alive at the time the millennium commences – what will happen to such a person?

        • May 19, 2016 at 7:37 am
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          I’m sorry I don’t believe you. If you were familiar with the book all your questions would be answered. I am familiar with the contents of the Koran but have never read it. There is a difference.

          All mankind is blind. The bride class is on trial for life. I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life. Satan is still misleading the world. They will miss out on being part of the bride class by being deceived by atheism, evolution, and false religion. So don’t think they are getting off easy. They are missing out on the prize of the high calling. Because, now question for you why would God allow those in the millennium to learn the truth if they are only allowed NOW to learn? see Isaiah 26:9.

          There is a difference between knowing the truth and actually laying down your life in consecration to God to the high calling. Ask yourself, why would God allow you to be blind and then punish you for being blind? It makes so sense according to Christendoms theology.

          if the whole world was on trial not for life then it would be our fault for not reaching all corners of the earth with the message. Then we have to start inventing “well God would allow them into heaven because they didn’t have an opportunity.” Now this would defeat the whole purpose of Jesus.
          Ask yourself why would God call people and punish those who are not called? That’s wrong and its not the God of the Bible.

          They are not cooperating. Thats th same argument when people say that Satan is ruling Hell right now. Well why would he punish those who are bad? If he cooperating with Jehovah and punishing the unrepentant. Your argument is moot. He is misleading us especially the bride class so that we go into second death or we lose out on the prize. That’s not what Jehovah wants and that’s what Satan wants. this shows they are not cooperating.

          No. If one is consecrated and lays down his life in service to Jehovah then turns around willingly and knowingly goes back into sin then he loses life. This is called sinning against the holy spirit. We have some that say they will be resurrected and judged unworthy or they won’t be. There’s no definite statement on this. Jesus said this when he talked about Gehenna with his followers.

          Please read: https://chicagobible.org/nightime-of-sin-to-end-in-the-morning/

  • May 19, 2016 at 9:47 pm
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    Chris – PART 1:

    It has certainly been interesting to discuss the Bible Students’ beliefs versus the JWs’ beliefs regarding homosexuality.

    You stated above that the JWs condemn homosexuals but the Bible Students don’t. However, based on your subsequent comments, it is evident that the Bible Students also condemn homosexuals:

    – “No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.

    So, homosexuals can’t be a part of the Bride Class, which is being called out today.
    _________

    – “Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today.”

    So if homosexuals who are resurrected in the future millennium do not conform, they will be put to death:

    “We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off………But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.”
    _________

    – “No. If one is consecrated and lays down his life in service to Jehovah then turns around willingly and knowingly goes back into sin then he loses life.”

    1). So if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and dies as a homosexual before the millennium starts this person will not be resurrected.

    2). And, if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and this person is alive at the time the millennium commences, this person will not be allowed to live for the entire millennium:

    “We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off………But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.”
    ________

    – “And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.”

    Satan misleads persons into becoming homosexuals.

    **********

    “We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom……..the dead will be resurrected on earth. Else wise how can the 144,000 rule over or on the earth?”

    When does the earthly resurrection of these persons who are NOT part of the group who will “be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years” (Rev. 20:6) – Bride Class according to your theology – take place?

    According to Revelation 20, a resurrection will take place:
    – at the BEGINNING of the millennium: of persons who “came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
    – and at the END of the millennium: of “the rest of the dead who did not come to life until the thousand years were ended”.

    So, according to the Bible:
    – there is no resurrection of any other persons apart from the Bride Class that takes place at the beginning of the millennium
    – there is no resurrection of anyone during the millennium

    ********

    Are any members of the Bride Class already in heaven?

    ********

    “No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.

    – What about persons who are homosexuals who were never reached with “the truth” during the Gospel Age, but despite their not knowing “the truth” these person stop practicing homosexuality during the Gospel Age.
    Will these persons become members of the Bride Class?

    – What about persons who were never homosexuals or who don’t do any of the things stated in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, yet they were never reached with “the truth” during the Gospel Age?
    Will they become members of the Bride Class?

    • May 19, 2016 at 11:45 pm
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      No. Whe it says “did not come to life” doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition. Because their life depends on how the acted in the millennium.

      Now we only did the Adamic death one time. After that it’s life or SECOND DEATH. Second death is which there is no resurrection for.

      Please read the studied books. It’s explains all
      Of this.

  • May 19, 2016 at 9:53 pm
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    Chris – PART 2:

    “The bride class is on trial for life. I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life.”

    So what is God testing the rest of mankind for during the Gospel Age, if he is not testing them for life like the Bride Class?

    *******

    “Satan is still misleading the world. They will miss out on being part of the bride class by being deceived by atheism, evolution, and false religion. So don’t think they are getting off easy. They are missing out on the prize of the high calling.”

    Why do these persons miss out on being part of the bride class? Why do these persons miss out on the prize of the high calling?
    Does this happen because “the truth” did not reach these persons?

    *********

    “Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?………. God is letting us be tested……… I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life. Satan is still misleading the world.”

    I can only conclude that God is collaborating with Satan, his arch-nemesis, if this is the case. Since God is using Satan to do his work for him, then God and Satan are collaborating.

    *********

    “if the whole world was on trial not for life then it would be our fault for not reaching all corners of the earth with the message……..Ask yourself why would God call people and punish those who are not called?”

    – So the only reason why some persons are on trial for life as members of the Bride Class during the Gospel Age, is because they were reached with the message/”the truth”. This therefore means that if you are not a part of the Bride Class it’s just your bad luck that you weren’t reached with the message/”the truth” during the Gospel Age.

    *******

    “………the concept of Armageddon being a battle between God an man in which God destroys mankind is a JW theology. According to the Bible it is when mankind goes into complete anarchy.”

    – Where exactly in the Bible is this stated?

    – There are other persons who believe that humanity’s demise could be our own doing but they do not give this potential demise any Biblical significance. For example, physicist Stephen Hawking thinks there are 4 ways in which the world could end, but he doesn’t give this any Biblical significance:
    http://www.techinsider.io/stephen-hawking-predictions-about-the-end-of-the-world-2016-1

    – Does Armageddon have anything to do with the future millennium which the Bible Students anticipate?

    – Will anything happen to the world governments when the millennium commences?

    – Where will the world governments be during the millennium?

    ********

    “When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.”

    – Is there some physical process that will take place in our bodies which will make it possible for humans to live for 1000 years?

  • May 19, 2016 at 9:58 pm
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    Chris – PART 3

    “We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected.”

    “When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.”

    If all of mankind will be resurrected plus there will be persons who will not die but who will be alive when the millennium commences, and if all these persons will be living for 1000 years without dying, will they all fit on the earth?

    How Many People Have Ever Lived On Earth? 108 billion as at mid-2011 according to Population Reference Bureau estimates:
    http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

    The earth’s land area is: 148 326 000 square km (57 268 900 square miles)

    Based on these figures, the earth’s population density would be 728 persons per square km (1886 persons per square mile).

    How does this compare to the current situation in China?
    According to
    http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/ :

    The current population of China is 1,381,588,762 as of Thursday, May 19, 2016, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

    The total land area of China is 9,390,784 square km (3,625,800 square miles).

    Based on these figures, the current population density of China is 147 persons per square km (381 persons per square miles).

    So the population density of a paradise earth, based solely on the number of persons estimated to be resurrected, would be about 5 times that of China. Would this be ecologically sustainable?

    – will each person be able to live under his own vine and fig tree?

    – will persons be able to continue having children with such a population density, given that there will be no more death?

    ********

    “If Jesus comes back to judge guilty or not guilty why would we need the millennium?”

    – What reason(s) is(are) there to believe that there is a millennium which is yet to come?

    *********

    “You asked about how can the homosexuals die again when the bible says we only die one? This reminds be of a question you asked earlier in which your logic was completely off. You asked how can Hod destroy the world AGAIN when he said that he would never again destroy mankind with a flood? Well who says it has to be with a flood? ”

    If God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood then was the covenant between God Noah, and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12) and between God and EVERY LIVING CREATURE (Genesis 9:9-10, 16) necessary?

    What was the point of instituting such a covenant or why bother to institute such a covenant if God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood?

    Suppose Noah was still alive when another global annihilation by God was carried out using a different means apart from a flood, would Noah think that God was still honouring the covenant which God made with him?

    What you are claiming is that God made a covenant with Noah
    and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12) about the MEANS by which the global annihilation was carried out and not about the ANNIHILATION ITSELF. Would Noah have understood that the covenant was about the MEANS by which the global annihilation was carried out and not about the ANNIHILATION ITSELF?

    If God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood then it was not necessary for God to have made the covenant with Noah, and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12). The covenant was not necessary if God would need to carry out more global annihilations in the future………unless God is not omniscient and all-knowing as the Bible claims and so he made the covenant in error.

    • May 21, 2016 at 12:36 pm
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      How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation given that, according to the Bible, God made the following promise to Noah at Genesis 8:21:

      “And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; NEITHER WILL I EVER AGAIN DESTROY EVERY LIVING CREATURE as I have done.”

  • May 19, 2016 at 10:02 pm
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    Chris – PART 4

    “Mankind only dies the ADAMIC death one time.”

    “When we have perfect knowledge and we follow satan at the end of the millennium and we go into the second death then thats it. He will not die a second time.”

    So, according to your theology, any resurrected homosexual who does not conform during the millennium or any resurrected person who follows satan at the end of the millennium and does not resist homosexuality will die a second time.

    This however ignores that Jesus stated that persons resurrected in the age to come CAN NO LONGER DIE. So how will it be possible for a person resurrected in the age to come to die again?

    Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):

    “The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”
    (emphasis mine).
    _______

    According to your theology, we can die:
    * an Adamic death for sins committed by Adam

    * after being resurrected, a non-Adamic death for sins which we ourselves commit during the future millennium

    So if we can die a non-Adamic death for sins which we commit ourselves, why do we have to die an Adamic death for sins which someone else (Adam) committed?
    In other words, Adam’s sin did not have to be passed on to his descendants in order for them to die since they can die for their own sins according to your theology.
    ______

    – What is “perfect knowledge”?

    – Your comment implies that we do not have “perfect knowledge” now – why don’t we have “perfect knowledge” now?
    _______

    – Persons who don’t die the Adamic death, but who are alive at the time the anticipated future millennium begins, will live forever if they pass the test at end of millennium. There will therefore be some persons who will never ever die at all.

    So some people will never have to die the Adamic death for Adamic sin although according to the Bible, it is appointed for man to die once. This certainly proves that it really wasn’t necessary for people to die for the sins committed by someone else – Adam – after all, since some persons will escape the “wages of sin” which is (Adamic) death (Romans 6:23). It won’t be true that the “wages of sin is death” in their case.

    • May 19, 2016 at 11:39 pm
      Permalink

      Dee. Read the divine plan of the ages. All these questions are answered for you. I don’t want to answer anymore. I mean come on 4 parts. Read the Studies in the a Scripture. I’m not answering anymore. Have a good day.

    • May 19, 2016 at 11:55 pm
      Permalink

      As for your never die again. This is Adamic death. Because God would be a liar to call it’s a second death.

      Ezekiel 18:20
      “The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”

      In the millennium it’s no longer the sin of Adam
      That we will die for but our own.

      As for
      Your population question. Every person that has ever existed can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas.

      There are different resurrections. The bible talks about the “happy are those who are in the first ressurection. For these the second death has no
      Power.”

      The ressurection is not all at once. “The first will be last and the last will be first.”

      Plus I think you should lighten up on the “what ifs”. I don’t do scenarios. I tell my students that all the time. When I said no talking thy says “what if this happens”. We can’t have an endless case of scenarios.

      Please read the Studies.

      I won’t be back in here for responses anymore.

      You asked why do we have to die for sins Adam committed? Ask God that. We know that Adam sin passed onto us.

  • May 20, 2016 at 11:48 am
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    Chris,

    “No. Whe it says “did not come to life” doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition. Because their life depends on how the acted in the millennium.”

    So the Bible Students have therefore resorted to an ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” making it mean something else other than “resurrection” in Revelation 20:5.

    The irony is that this ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” contradicts the use of the same expression in the previous verse in which “COMING TO LIFE” means “resurrection”:
    Revelation 20:4 “And they CAME TO LIFE ( = resurrection) and ruled with the Christ for a thousand years……. This is the first resurrection.”

    According to the Bible Students’ theology, “COMING TO LIFE” has two different meanings in the same chapter of Revelation:
    – it means “resurrection” in Revelation 20:4
    – but in the very next verse, Revelation 20:5, it does not mean “resurrection”, it means something else: “it means being brought into everlasting life condition”.

    This ad hoc interpretation of “COMING TO LIFE” as “being brought into everlasting life condition” during the millennium is a blatant attempt to avoid the plain meaning of these verses when they are taken at face value.

    **********

    “As for Your population question. Every person that has ever existed can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas.”

    I thought the idea was that everyone would be living under his own vine and fig tree………not “shoulder to shoulder”?

    According to Population Reference Bureau estimates, 108 billion people have lived on earth as at mid-2011 :
    http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

    The land area of TEXAS is: 678,051.4 square km (261,797.12 square miles) according to
    ipl dot org/div/stateknow/popchart.html

    Based on these figures, the population density of TEXAS would be 159,280 persons per square km (412,533 persons per square mile).

    How does this compare to the current situation in China?
    According to
    http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/ :

    The current population of China is 1,381,605,913 as of Friday, May 20, 2016, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

    The total land area of China is 9,390,784 square km (3,625,800 square miles).

    Based on these figures, the current population density of China is 147 persons per square km (381 persons per square mile).

    So the population density of the millennium earth using the land area of TEXAS and using the number of persons estimated to be resurrected, would be about 1,083 times that of China……..interesting. Would this be ecologically sustainable?

    • May 21, 2016 at 10:09 am
      Permalink

      Chris,

      Even if “COMING TO LIFE” should mean something else as you have claimed – it “doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition”;
      – there is still nowhere in the Bible which states that there is a resurrection of other persons at the beginning of the millennium apart from those who “came to life and (who) will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4 – 6).

      – there is still nowhere in the Bible which states that there will be a resurrection of persons during the millennium.

    • May 25, 2016 at 3:09 pm
      Permalink

      Your error is that only 381 people can fit into a square mile. If you read my comment it states that everyone can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas. Not only 381 per square mile. I said “shoulder to shoulder” Therefore since I am a math teacher I pick to your error out right away. You mentioned “ecologically sustainable”. You do realize it’s out belief that the earth is cursed and things do no grow in the same way they didn’t the garden of Eden. I’m sure in a restored perfect world the earth will yelid a lot more than we have now. But don’t take that as an absolute and ask 50 questions with it that would
      Only be assumptions and think because we don’t know that that must mean that we are wrong.

      As for your faulty interpretation of Micah 4:4 it doesn’t show that each person will have a certain amount of space for land. Although a taken-out-of-context interpretation would make it seem so. It’s shows him enjoying his own fruitage and hard work and dwelling in peace. .

      Micah 4:3b-4
      “They will beat their swords into plowsharesAnd their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation,Nor will they learn war anymore. 4 They will sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree,And no one will make them afraid,For the mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken.”

      This is a discussion of peace. Not of everyone being spread out over and earth that cannot sustain itself. Plus taking my words out of context and saying shoulder to shoulder doesn’t mean that we have to live shoulder to shoulder as portrayed in your comment about under his own fig tree. You assumed that my comment means we will all live together. Not as bright as I thought you were.

      • June 3, 2016 at 12:49 pm
        Permalink

        @Chris:

        ****”Your error is that only 381 people can fit into a square mile. If you read my comment it states that everyone can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas. Not only 381 per square mile. I said “shoulder to shoulder”.

        On May 19, 2016 at 11:55 pm you stated:
        “Every person that has ever existed can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas”.

        What does this translate to?

        As I stated before, if all the resurrected dead plus those who are alive when the millennium starts can all fit in TEXAS, then this will translate to a population density of 159,280 persons per square km (412,533 persons per square mile) or a population density 1,083 times the current population density of China.

        The following images show just how overcrowded China’s population really is:

        http://www.businessinsider.com/china-crazy-crowded-one-child-policy-2015-10

        http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-show-china-overcrowded-2016-4

        I am sure the people who wrote these articles and many other persons would NOT agree with you that a population density of 1,083 times the current population density of China is ecologically sustainable. But as you have stated, God will let you off the hook during your anticipated millennium:

        “You do realize it’s out belief that the earth is cursed and things do no grow in the same way they didn’t the garden of Eden. I’m sure in a restored perfect world the earth will yelid a lot more than we have now.”

        So God cursed the earth in order to handicap humans then we are told how man can’t rule the earth like God can, when in fact God has set us up to fail by cursing the earth. If God´s goal is to show man that we cannot rule ourselves, he should use the same handicaps not just swing his wand to make the impossible work.

        Also, are we expected to believe that science and logic can be used to justify God’s existence but that same science and logic are incapable of evaluating whether or not it is feasible for all the resurrected dead plus those who are alive when the millennium starts to all fit in TEXAS?

      • June 3, 2016 at 12:51 pm
        Permalink

        @Chris:

        ****”This is a discussion of peace. Not of everyone being spread out over and earth that cannot sustain itself.”

        Whether or not Micah 4:4 is a discussion of peace, if all of the resurrected dead plus those who are alive when the millennium starts can fit in TEXAS which translates to a population density of 159,280 persons per square km (412,533 persons per square mile) or a population density of 1,083 times the current population density of China, will “each be able to sit under his OWN grapevine or under his OWN fig tree without any fear” (Micah 4:4 NET Bible)? Or according to the New Living Translation:
        “Everyone will live in peace and prosperity, enjoying their OWN grapevines and fig trees, for there will be nothing to fear.” Will it be possible for everyone to have their OWN grapevines and fig trees to enjoy if the population density will be as described?

  • May 20, 2016 at 11:55 am
    Permalink

    Chris,

    “Plus I think you should lighten up on the “what ifs”. I don’t do scenarios. I tell my students that all the time. When I said no talking thy says “what if this happens”. We can’t have an endless case of scenarios.”

    What you are therefore saying is that persons should just accept without question, what you tell them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications. The Bible however admonishes that we should “test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), not to just gullibly accept without asking questions.

    Chris, it is a simple matter: If you don’t do “what if” questions/scenarios then it simply means that the information provided by the Bible Students is inadequate, it doesn’t mean that the “what if” questions should not be asked. The inadequacy of the information which the Bible Students provide should not stop persons from asking “what if” questions.

    If the Bible Students are unable to answer the “what if” questions then a person will therefore have to decide whether he/she will accept what you have told them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications, given the inadequacies.

    *********

    “You asked why do we have to die for sins Adam committed? Ask God that. We know that Adam sin passed onto us.”

    Yes, I will certainly ask God about that, especially given that you stated:

    “In the millennium it’s no longer the sin of Adam That we will die for but our own”

    and given that you quoted Ezekiel 18:20 which clearly shows that children do not die for the sins of their parents:

    Ezekiel 18:20
    “The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”

    If we can die for our own sins and if children do not share the guilt of the parent and vice versa, then it is therefore a very simple matter:
    Adam should therefore die for the sins which he committed and his descendants should only die for the sins which they commit, not for the sins which someone else (Adam) committed.

    Also, it certainly isn’t justice (divine or otherwise) to condemn not only the criminal to death, but also his/her offspring who have nothing to do with his/her crime – it certainly isn’t justice if the law which governs societies today wasn’t satisfied with the death of a criminal but came after his/her offspring and executed them as well for his/her crime.

    • May 20, 2016 at 4:50 pm
      Permalink

      I’m going to do what you do so you can see what I mean. I’m going to assume you’re a Christian.

      1. “What you are therefore saying is that persons should just accept without question, what you tell them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications. The Bible however admonishes that we should “test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), not to just gullibly accept without asking questions.”

      – Where did I say anything about just accepting publications answers? Yes we test not have someone take us through a million scenarios. Where did I say you should just accept what it written in “publication.” That fact that you said you are familiar with the Divine Plan of the Ages yet asked every question about what its about shows you aren’t honest. How would you feel if i told you i did no homework but asked you for every answer just to make sure?

      2. You stated “Ezekiel 18:20
      “The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”

      – Where does this say this is now?
      -How does a child sin on their own when the bible says we die because of Adam? 1 Corinthian 15:22
      -You said a child doesn’t die because of their parents how does this refer to Adam when its talking about a child being under their parent?
      -What if the child is caused to sin by their parent?
      -What is the parent doesn’t know it’s a sin and their parents make them do something and it’s a sin would they bear the sin of their parent?

      Ahhh scenarios? See how it feels?

      My response: In the millennial age the circumstances will be ideal. We are now reading about the days of Ezekiel and not the days of Moses. When the law was initially given it was read every seven years. Those in moses day knew this but those in Ezekiels day were ignorant. In the millennial age each person will be dealt with individually. But lets talk about this in there day. In the mosaic law if one was guilt all were guilty. Sometimes God commanded the Israelites to kill every man woman a child of the household. Even though the child may not have done anything. So how in ezekiel period there would not die because of their father sin and vice versa. This is not about dying for sin the agamic death.

      You stated “If we can die for our own sins and if children do not share the guilt of the parent and vice versa, then it is therefore a very simple matter:
      Adam should therefore die for the sins which he committed and his descendants should only die for the sins which they commit, not for the sins which someone else (Adam) committed.”

      – Even though God said we die because of Adam then why should we be punished?

      -Doesnt 1 Cor 15:22 completely void you what you stated “his descendants should only die for the sins they committed” when it says “As in Adam all die.”
      -Why are we to only die for our sins when the bible explicitly states that adams sin spread to all men because of Adam?
      -What if Abel didn’t sin would be have been freed from sin and not died because of his own sin?
      – If Abraham was considered justified and righteous then why did he die?
      -Would God’s Plan be a failure if Adam and eve didn’t sin?
      -If Adam were to die only for his sin only then why did everyone else die after him?
      -If Adam freely sinned doesn’t that mean that his descendants didn’t freely sin?
      -How do we know many wouldn’t freely sin after Adam and Eve given that they didn’t sin.

      See how annoying it is. I can do one question or two but dang 4 Parts of scenarios.

      What if you were teaching a class and you said “no talking at all.” and a student says:
      ” But what if she needs a pencil?”
      “But what if she this or that”
      “What if the ask me for the date”
      “What if someone shoots up the school.”

      And you say “We don’t need scenarios.” and they reply “Well if you can’t answer scenarios then you shouldn’t be a teacher.”

      Thats a bit extreme but you get the picture.Scenarios can go on FOREVER.

      Or how would you feel is someone says they’ve seen Harry Potter and ask you every question about everything thats shown in the movie? You’d be annoyed wouldn’t you.
      Thats how I feel when you ask some questions that are addressed in that Divine Plan book.

      • May 20, 2016 at 4:54 pm
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        It’s not about being able to not answer questions but if you go the “why? why? why? why? why? why?” eventually you would have to stop

        In christendom they just say “We’ll its a matter of faith.”

    • May 25, 2016 at 3:22 pm
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      “Chris, it is a simple matter: If you don’t do “what if” questions/scenarios then it simply means that the information provided by the Bible Students is inadequate, it doesn’t mean that the “what if” questions should not be asked.”

      Not asking the “what if” questions in no way is asking to accept any of the statements without question. No one asked you to accept without asking and no one asked you to no question. What your doing is creating scenarios that are not stated the bible and expecting me to be able to answer them with absolute certainty. Because I may not be able to provide you an answer doesn’t mean other Bible Students can’t. I know some very scholarly bible students. Then you come back with an Scenario you ask are obnoxious. You ask questions like “what will happen to homosexuals who become Christians and turn their backs on God in the millennium”. Google it I’ll wait…. did you find anything in the bible through google that pointed to an answer in the scripture? Or did you know this before? If you knew it wasn’t in there it was a question meant to be obnoxious. True teachers can back it up with the reason. Not let their students ask dumb questions knowing the teacher doesn’t know and assume they are inadequate for not having a solution. But asking questions you know aren’t in the Bible and accusing people they must not be smart or they are in error because it doesn’t back up with your views shows the questions to be obnoxious. Would it be proper to ask you what would everybody be doing in heaven and have them in the Bible doesn’t give a description of this and expecting an answer and then calling you not smart because you can’t answer would you call that fair? To ask this question even though I know it’s not in the Bible and expect an answer really shows that I would be being obnoxious!

      The bible says test all things. But asking to be asking knowing good an well there’s. It an answer in no way invalidates my beliefs or assume yours are correct.

  • May 20, 2016 at 8:24 pm
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    Chris,

    The various questions which I have asked you, have been asked because I do have questions about what is written in the Divine Plan of the Ages.

    One such question:
    Will there be persons alive on the earth at the time when the anticipated future millennium begins?

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