At the beginning of October I produced and participated in a video featuring 62 Jehovah’s Witness apostates from all over the world. The video has so far attracted more than 24,000 views.
Our message to believing JWs was simple: apostates are NOT your enemies. Apostates are simply JWs who have summoned the bravery to subject their cherished beliefs to objective scrutiny and logic, based on which they have decided to reject irrational, corrosive teachings and practices, and start afresh.
As should by now be obvious, I am (and always will be) a proud apostate. I am immensely relieved to have discovered, while still relatively young, that the beliefs passed on to me by my parents were false. I also derive great pleasure and personal satisfaction from being involved in raising awareness of the harm caused by cults such as Watchtower through my activism work.
But being a JW apostate does not mean I support and endorse the behavior, methods and agenda of ALL other JW apostates. Just because I come from a cult in which “unity” of thought and action is demanded, this does not oblige me to nurture similar “unity” to some mirror organization or community.
For example, a year ago I took the decision to distance myself from apostates who engage in aggressive forms of activism after I noticed an increase in videos being shared on Facebook showing certain individuals harassing Jehovah’s Witnesses on the street and at their places of worship.
Even though I didn’t name any names, or target anyone in particular, by merely stating the obvious on this issue (i.e. aggressive confrontation of cult victims is not conducive to their rehabilitation) I was subjected to a barrage of abuse and slander culminating in my being labelled a sexual predator, a stalker, a cyber bully, a cult leader and a wife beater by two individuals in particular – Mike and Kim Brooks, of New Mexico.
Since then, Mike and Kim, while insisting that I refrain from any criticism of them, seem to have set up camp as “Cedars Haters HQ.” Over the past 12 months they made two more videos with me as the subject, and have attracted a small army of similarly-fixated, mostly-Christian evangelical “haters” from across the ex-JW community.
In one of these videos, Mike Brooks threatened me with physical violence if I ever set foot in New Mexico. The “crime” that warranted a violent attack on me was my failure to apologize to another person for something within an arbitrarily-defined time period.
In the second video, both Mike and Kim condemned me for giving away an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience to my YouTube subscribers. Though the pair bemoaned the breach of copyright represented by my unauthorized copies, which were printed by a friend, both seemed oblivious to the fact that copyright laws are equally applicable to digital PDF copies, such as the PDF copy Kim Brooks admitted to having in the same video (and which was even being distributed on their website when their video was uploaded).*
A ‘community’ divided
Since first getting involved in activism work in 2011 I have had to deal with an unrelenting tide of criticism from fellow ex-JWs. Even my first attempts at setting up a survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which led to this website being launched, attracted controversy. Mike and Kim’s crusade against me, which is so clearly driven by deep resentment of my atheist views, is just the latest in a long line of aggravation I have become accustomed to dealing with.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that the majority of criticism of my work comes, not from Watchtower, but from my fellow ex-JWs. This, in my view, underscores just how damaging and corrosive the Watchtower cult is. Those who leave can be riddled with so much resentment and frustration that many can’t help but re-direct it at their fellow ex-members, who in their troubled minds become more worthy of criticism than Watchtower itself.
At times these “haters” get me down. I am, after all, only human and susceptible to sustained threats and abuse directed at me and my family. At other times I am able to shrug off the negativity and press on with my work. But with this latest “copyright” fiasco I feel something has changed, which is why I have decided to write this article. I assume my readers and YouTube subscribers value my treating them like adults and telling it like it is, and by pointing out the elephant in the room I will hopefully prepare you all for what lies ahead.
I have long understood that the so-called ex-JW “community” (I prefer to call it a movement) is composed of factions. You might be unaware of these factions if your only interaction with ex-JWs is brief forays on social media or forums. But when you deal with ex-JWs on a day-to-day basis as I do, the factions are all too obvious, and encompass two principle areas.
The Activism Spectrum
The first area, or spectrum, concerns activism. The following graphic gives you a rough sketch of the various mindsets…
At one end of the spectrum you have aggressive activists, who advocate confronting JWs on the street and in kingdom halls. A common defense of aggressive activism is: “All forms of activism are equally good, and different forms of activism work on different kinds of people.” My reply to this argument is that it overlooks how complex and deeply-entrenched cult indoctrination can be, and the delicacy and sensitivity required in disentangling someone from it.
Saying that all forms of activism are equally good is like saying all forms of dentistry are equally good. Just as a bad dentist can end up doing more harm than good, so can an activist who believes in storming into kingdom halls and berating cult victims as a means of helping them.
On the opposite end of the activism scale you have anti-activists, including JW apologists for Watchtower (but also some apostates) who oppose any attempts to wake up JWs from their indoctrination. You may consider it unthinkable to have such a mindset, but I have an awakened uncle who embraces it unashamedly. The attitude of awakened JWs who are against activism can be summed up as: “Thanks to the work of activists I’m now awake, but waking anyone else up through activism is distasteful. All the Witnesses still inside can fend for themselves.”
“Strategic activists” are those who take full advantage of online resources, including blogs and social media, to make it as easy as possible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to awaken without resorting to harassment or confrontation. You don’t need to have a blog or YouTube channel to be a strategic activist. You can get involved in strategic activism simply by supporting and promoting other strategic activists, or by sharing links to important articles or videos that may prove helpful in prompting JWs to start thinking for themselves.
“Armchair activists” is my description for usually-anonymous ex-JWs who for various reasons don’t do any activism themselves, but who offer guidance on how they would do it from the sidelines. Armchair activists can exert either a positive or negative influence. Their guidance ranges from constructive criticism and helpful advice to fierce attacks on the methods, motives and character of those actually involved in activism. There is at least one forum I can think of where armchair activists seem to be in the majority.
Non-activists are those, like my wife and many other friends of mine, who are simply grateful to have escaped Watchtower with their wits intact. They neither criticize activism nor involve themselves in it – they just dust themselves down and get on with their lives.
The Belief Spectrum
The second area of “factions,” and perhaps the area that effects me the most personally, is that of belief.
And it is much simpler to explain.
Over the last four years, many will have noticed the tone of my articles and videos follow my journey from skeptical Christian, to agnostic, to agnostic atheist. Throughout this journey I have always striven to be as respectful towards believers as possible.
I understand that some people need religion in their lives, and though I find it both obsolete and in most cases repulsive, I personally cannot envision a world where everyone is atheist and nobody is religious. I also acknowledge that the majority of JWs who find themselves on this website will recoil if they feel coerced to abandon belief in God altogether.
It is for these reasons that JWsurvey has, and always will have, a “religious neutrality” policy displayed in our comments section, whereby it is prohibited to evangelize either religion OR atheism on these pages (i.e. “This belief system works for me – and everyone else had better embrace it too!”).
But, though I try to be as respectful and accommodating as possible towards believers, there is an evangelical Christian faction within the ex-JW movement, and it does not play by the same rules.
While some Christians jumped to my defense over last year’s aggressive activism debacle, rightly acknowledging that harassing cult victims is anything but loving and Christlike, they were worryingly few in number. Aggressive activism and evangelical Christianity, it seems, usually go hand in hand.
Worse still, though I hate that this is so, as of this moment I can probably count on one hand the number of friends I have who are both Christian and genuinely respectful of my lack of belief, including my right to criticize religion on my YouTube channel.
And I can understand the reason for this.
Though there are liberal Christians out there who embrace a “live and let live” approach, and who aren’t remotely concerned as to whether others around them embrace their beliefs or not, the simple truth is: evangelism is a part of Christianity. It is mandated for Christians by Jesus himself. (Matthew 28:19)
Christians who take their faith seriously are supposed to think that anyone who doesn’t share their belief in Jesus as savior has slightly (or radically) bleaker future prospects than they do. In that context, promoting one’s beliefs when the opportunity presents itself, such as when others are discussing religion on a website or forum, is only to be expected. In their minds, they are doing us all a favor.
But rather than its members simply extolling their own understanding of God and his requirements for humans, for some time now the evangelical Christian faction has adopted a troubling new approach: stamping out the fledgling ex-JW atheist faction wherever it manifests itself.
Again, I only need to dip into the way my mind was calibrated as a JW, and the motivation behind this offensive by the evangelical wing is as clear as day.
As a JW, apostates were not just slightly-misguided fellow creatures who were pitied but still worthy of respect. They were the enemy. The gloves were off. Apostates were agents of Satan himself who were to be, not just avoided at all costs, but resisted and repudiated if they made incursions into God’s organization and its all-important kingdom work.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the same righteous indignation fuels the hate-strewn rants of the likes of the Brooks’ and Alun Williams (another even more eccentric would-be spiritual mentor), to name only a few. They will not share the same space with unbelievers. They can barely tolerate the fact that unbelievers exist, but the moment an ex-JW unbeliever such as myself opens his mouth and criticizes their cherished beliefs on a suitably well-subscribed YouTube channel, this constitutes an act of war. I become “fair game” (to coin a Scientology expression), and any tactics no matter how underhanded may be brought to bear.
No perceived flaw or slip-up is too trivial to warrant an avalanche of criticism. Even giving away an unauthorized copy of a book is to be treated with horror and disgust, and responded to with character assassinations of the most severe kind – even if the one doing the criticizing is guilty of the same indiscretion.
By this point you are probably thinking: “Ok, I get it. There is an evangelical faction in the exJW community, and it has its knives sharpened for anyone like you who espouses atheism. But what is different? How has anything changed?”
The Christian evangelical faction has, to my knowledge, always been mostly populated by demonstrably-eccentric conspiracy theorists, obsessed with freemasonry, subliminal images and the illuminati, who are almost a parody of themselves. But, like Donald Trump, against all odds they are gaining in influence, and have already attracted a respectable portfolio of more eloquent, credible spokespersons to rally to their banner.
This latest copyright fiasco came as a surprise, not because of the ferocity of the attack over such a trivial issue, but because it succeeded in duping a number of fellow activists – including a couple of respectable Christians I was hitherto friends with, who gave me bear hugs last time I met them in person, and who have featured on my YouTube channel.
I was previously unaware of there being any animosity between this couple (who I can’t name) and myself, and they were even friends with me on Facebook. But one of them made it clear in a private email exchange with a mutual friend that, because I offered an unauthorized copy of a book on my YouTube channel, I am to be considered “toxic,” a “liability” and “bad for business.”
The vitriolic tirade in which these sentiments appeared was apparently an ill-judged attempt to use the copyright issue as leverage to turn my friend and certain other fellow activists against me and my work. The person was, in effect, outing themselves as a “Cedars hater” and siding with Mike and Kim Brooks.
Again, you are probably thinking: “So what? Why do I need to know all this? Why do you even need to write about it? By writing about it you are only exacerbating an already fraught situation, and possibly putting off JWs who will leap on all this as evidence that life outside Watchtower is full of bickering and turmoil.”
I am writing about this situation because it matters – or should matter to those who value free inquiry and intellectual honesty over religious zealotry and unfounded dogma. Things will not improve by ignoring the underlying problem, the elephant in the room. Whether I like it or not, a bitter war between the evangelical and atheist factions in the ex-JW community is raging – and it has just escalated.
A war I don’t want
I did not sign up to be an activist four years ago because I sought confrontation and controversy. Believe it or not, I loath confrontation and will avoid it where possible. But whether I like fighting or not, fighting – if only of the defensive sort – is precisely what I must now do if I am to continue despite sustained efforts to silence my atheism by those who insist everyone should believe as they do.
What matters to me is not power, prestige, money or popularity. If I wanted those things, there are far easier ways of obtaining them than being a secular-minded ex-JW anti-cult activist. What matters to me is one thing, and one thing alone: the fight for truth. It is a fight that has been going on for centuries, fought by great minds and inspirational individuals who have made immense individual sacrifices to birth a society as tolerant and progressive as the one we now enjoy.
But nothing can be taken for granted, and those who insist on inflicting their ignorance on everyone else are far from disappearing in the rear view mirror. The struggle continues and effects all of us, whether it is creationists rallying for equal time in the classroom, or gays and lesbians being denied equal rights, or jihadists trying to burn civilization as we know it. And in my own corner of this global battlefield, I refuse to keel over and capitulate to evangelical thugs such as Mike and Kim Brooks or those they succeed in enticing to flock to their anti-intellectual crusade.
That is why I wanted to let my readers and YouTube subscribers know that, from now on, I will be more open than ever about my atheism, and my channel will feature more videos specifically on that subject. It is painfully apparent from my interactions with Christian evangelical ex-JWs that many of them are completely unaware of the arguments for unbelief, and I want to do my part to redress the balance.
JWsurvey, meanwhile, will remain for the most part as it is now – a welcoming environment for both the religious and secular-inclined alike. Scriptures will continue to be freely cited where necessary, because even though Christianity is objectively without evidence as a belief system, it just so happens that the bible is still in conflict with the teachings and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses in a plethora of areas.
Finally, a message…
To my critics I say: Get off my back, or prepare for a long and bitter struggle, because I didn’t break free from years of cult servitude to be told to “shut up,” and I won’t be bullied. And even if you should succeed in silencing me, ultimately the wind is in the sails of free inquiry, science and reason. Others will pick up my baton when I finish, and I am already far from alone.
To my friends I say: Thank you so much for your support, but PLEASE refrain from attacking those who attack me. By doing so you only bolster their persecution complex, and rather than take out their frustration on you they will only escalate their onslaught.
And to Jehovah’s Witnesses who might be reading this, I say: The fact that ex-JW apostates are fighting each other is not evidence that you are not in a cult. It only means that Watchtower indoctrination has a range of extremely unpleasant side-effects, which include suspicion, paranoia, jealousy, anger and bitterness. All of those things can be found in abundance in kingdom halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but at least those of us on the outside have the ability to choose who our friends are for ourselves. And the longer you stay in the cult, the more pronounced those characteristics may be when you are finally able to walk away.
*For the record, I do not say there was nothing wrong in my offering an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience. I merely say that apologies need to go to those to whom they are owed, and any breach of copyright is strictly an issue between me and the copyright holder. And if you insist on besieging me with complaints on the matter, if you are fair and consistent you must similarly rebuke everyone who has involved themselves in downloading or distributing a PDF of the book – something the copyright holder has hitherto done nothing, to my knowledge, to halt. Others have complained that the JWsurvey.org logo has been added to the copy I was giving away, but the logo was added by my friend, not me – not that I think doing so was the heinous crime people are framing it as. And if you are to chastise me simply because my website is advertised on someone else’s copy of a book, you also need to level similar criticism at the owner of the JWfacts.com website, which is also endorsed.
Further reading…
- Why I can no longer support aggressive forms of activism against Jehovah’s Witnesses
- My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
Related video…
Add this one to the belief box:
The loving believer-
We are all on our own spiritual journey and what’s true for me may not be true for you. God doesn’t get caught up in your style of worship or cultural references, those are all man made anyways.
Nicely put MJ.thx
Nicely put MJ.thx
Exactly, nicely said.
Cedars, you do it right. Fair, balanced, and supported by evidence. Back when I was doing research and looking up youtube videos it took 10 seconds to see that these 2 individuals have nothing to offer intellectually. I saw that video where he thought he was John Wayne and started throwing out claims. . I thought it was a Chapelle show skit or comedy sketch. Keep on doing what you’re doing. How can you go from the cult of JW’S to the evangelical spectrum is a question I’d like an answer too.
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave who is supplying food at the proper time?”
I vote for Lloyd…………………
……………………..and Blue Moon Beer…….
We love you Lloyd……..you’re the best,
Keep up the fight.
We’re with you.
Garrett
Blue moon beer……huh……does that.make you a broncos fan also?
Nope
Minnesota Vikings!
8-3
Go Queens!!!
wootwoot fellow Minnesotan
SR
Where you from?
Sorry to hear about that, Lloyd. I think we as humans our hardwired to create a world we understand or at least think we understand, therefore any challenges to that reality is viewed as a threat. It was all so much simpler when the world was flat and the gods of heaven controlled everything.
Dear John,
you’ve been my inspiration on my way out. Actually I’m still not done, not 100% out, but after some months of fighting internal struggle, I decided to start blog in my language – Slovak, because there is nothing available in this language, just some apostate pages, that look like from 80s and the content is rubbish as well.
I decide to provide facts, clear reasoning and information that is not available to standard JWs that to not speak english.
And your blog and videos are giving me power to continue. So please, so not give up.
Mikesem
Excellent idea!!!!!
Do it!
You will save many from disaster!
Best of wishes
Garrett
Chces pomoc nejako Mike ?
If you need any help Mike let me know,I post this comment in Slovak too ,but it didn’t pass admin yet .
Sir, you come from a very balanced and kind standpoint. I wish I had the same. I have been around JWs since my early 20s, now I am 66. I bought it hook line and sinker. I was brainwashed until Barbara Anderson helped me begin the process of sobriety with the JW mindset. I must say the anger and resentment I had was terrible. I get it. However with this child abuse cover up it takes a new look. I was abused prior to being a JW. This is something I tried to talk about with elders but they just dismissed me. My guilt was self destructive. I was in a narcissistic hole of self destruction. When you throw the abuse, war, JWs beliefs and the guilt you have a literal IED ready for detonation. I am glad I am on the way to recovery. I so enjoy your wisdom and insight. Keep it up. Your showing me some balance and doing good works for this atheist
Cedars…… I fully enjoy the articles that you produce and always look forward to reading your thoughts and insights on the current or past going ons inside of the Watchtower Organization. After reading this article…… I do hope that your writings will continue to be as insightful and comparable to the world that we ALL live in as they have in the past, the difference I have found between your writings and other ex-witness sites is the ability to enjoy your writings without the need to agree with your personal beliefs in faith. Your writings are very relatable across many readers thoughts and doesn’t require a specific thinking on God, The Bible or faith in general. (Although a common background is generally the basis for reading and enjoying your writings) An increase in articles on athiesm or a more centered viewpoint using that as a standard towards comparing the WT articles or developments inside of the organization may alienate many of your readers, myself included. (And seems to be counter to your own guidelines of “Religious Neutrality” listed below) I fully respect everyone for whatever beliefs that they have regardless on if they are my personal beliefs or not, I would just hate to see such amazing and enjoyable articles become unrelatable because a reader doesn’t share your specific view on faith.
Thank you for doing what you do, I have enjoyed following you for several years now.
-Ken
Thanks Ken. Articles on JWsurvey will continue as normal. It’s only my YouTube channel that will be more open about atheism and unbelief. But thank you for proving right off the bat that there is such thing as a tolerant and understanding believer.
Thanks Cedars! I appreciate the clarification. I always look forward to your articles!
I have kind same concern as Ken S above.
To be brief I would say at fist that you are different class than Mike & Kim.
I saw ones of their videos some time ago but simply put it’s not for me.
So if you want “fight”them its up to you but I think it’s a waist of time and energy but I respect your current feelings.Just keep in mind that feelings are subject of change in time and space. :-)
So my concern is if you will be able to keep you mind frame in same good shape and focus on your original objective “to give voice to silent majority” as ex JW on this platform at the same time profile yourself in Y tube channel as “advocate of atheism in fight against evangelical Christians”.
To me this is asking about kind bipolar approach which will weaken your current strong position in this segment.
The success (I don’t mean commercial or how many visitors your site have) of JW Surwey is that you were able to tackle some issues of JW.org in original way thus pleasing to many .You open eyes (awake) of many of JW community so this ability and position will be endanger in my humble opinion.
I respect your personal development as you described that you came from being a JW trough agnosticism to atheism but don’t forget the journey of searching for the TRUTH in life doesn’t end in the camp of the atheist.
If than would be case than we wouldn’t have those who leave this camp in disappointment and go there where the others come from or somewhere else.
My best wishes to you and your family Loyd,stay strong bro !
I’m with you pal… It saddens me to hear we are not all united… I have 9 ex jw sites as ‘favourites and you and paul g. And babs are 12 and 3…
A very welcome article and I appreciate your candor. While I respect some of those in opposition to you, I see I have more in common with the agnostic beliefs.
I would hope all could come together in a united front against the WT, but what I have sen happen over the last year especially has made me arrive at the same conclusion: there are deep divisions in the XJW community and it is best to find out for your own mental sanity where you feel most at home in.
In saying that, you will continue to have my support and gratitude. Take care John.
As usual a thought provoking and balanced analysis of the situation.
Thanks for your honesty and open-ness Lloyd.
We support your efforts and understand the need to careful steps through the minefield that is the complex thought processes of exjw cult survivors.
Strategic Activism is my aim, and also encouragement for those who are out, or trying to get out.
Hope you continue – you have my support.
I hate to say it, but my first though was that Mr. and Mrs. Brooks seem, to me, to be “mentally diseased.”
I believe in freedom and liberty of people to believe as they wish and express their beliefs as they wish, as long as they do no harm and are not coercive. These people seem to delight in doing harm.
Sorry you’re having a rough time because of it. You seem to be a very reasonable fellow.
Not to defend the Watchtower by any means, but let’s not lay blame for their crazy completely on the organization. I think whatever their issues are have been around all along. Not sure what their motivations are but I’m thinking it’s not so altruistic.
Thank you Cedars for being reasonable and sound of mind.
A fair point, I’d say. Sometimes people are the way they are because of WT teachings and sometimes not. There are agressive people in and out.
I’m what you described a non-activist. But I will say that I support what you’re doing. I’ve followed your journey for the past four years. You always write respectful, intelligent and factual articles. Don’t let the haters get to you. I will quote Dr Suess “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter don’t mind.”
Ditto!!!
Thank you for taking the time to explain the elephant. I felt like I was missing something, and I totally was. I think your making an excellent decision. If your gonna put your heart into your work, you should put your whole heart into it. That way, it leaves no room for misunderstandings in the future, and your children will be proud of where they came from. A strong, noble breed.
Keep up the excellent work, humanity needs more brainy people and less bullshit!
Very well observed article! I became an atheist pretty much the moment I was no longer a JW. It was a logical transition for me. My issues weren’t even with JW beliefs (initially) as much as they were with the authenticity of bible in general. Now, being secure in my non-belief, I have become (to take your phrase) a strategic activist. The evangelical faction of ex JWs scare the crap out of me just as any extreme branch of religion does. There is no love there, just control and anger.
I agree (mostly). I made a choice to leave jw just over 4 years ago, when I realised my son with Aspergers is gay. He was 15 years old at the time. He has always been gay. It wasn’t a choice for him. My faith in the Bible as being the word of a loving God was sorely tested. I couldn’t go from being a jw to evangelical- or any other Bible led religion for that matter because they would all condemn my son to a life without intimacy. I’ve joined other ex jw forums in the past but too many times it was like going from a frying pan into a fire! This one is the only one I currently subscribe to.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I’m now an atheist. I’m more agnostic. I don’t ‘believe’ in anything yet still remain positive. I’m not angry or bitter. I don’t hate jws. My husband is still a jw member, and 2 of my children are. I hope that they see from my experiences that it’s possible to leave the religion and be happy. Wouldn’t it be good if I could ‘win them without a word’?! However, I know for a fact that if I started talking to them like an ‘aggressive’ apostate they would just stop associating with me. I’m not dfd. The elders haven’t ‘come after me’ so I can’t really complain.
It was tough leaving and it messed me up for a while but I got through it. I’ll never go back. Life is for living. I’m happy to get on with mine because I know that to do otherwise would be counter productive.
That’s interesting, Sunshine. The issue of homosexuality was the first one that made me question the idea of a loving god and the words of the bible. I have so many close, dear friends who are gay and I just couldn’t believe in a god that would, essentially, set them up to fail (since they are born that way). From there I started to question everything in the bible and began to read books on the authenticity of the bible and who actually wrote it. That did it for me. Without the bible there is no Christianity. Jesus does not exist outside of those pages.
I believe that we should only fight for the right of leaving a religion with dignity. The JW can continue following seven lunatics if they happy with it. I personally respect people choices as long as they treat other people with the same respect.
I support Lloyd, his methods and his outlook. Thank you for all your hard work.
Now, back to my mentally diseased weeping and gnashing of teeth! :-P
As usual articulate, detailed and clear. But this is also an exceptional piece of writing. Glad you stewed on all this! Amazing what laying a floor can produce.
Read hastily, but there’s also a Facebook group…Cedars..
Lloyd..
Off-putting divisions…
When I first looked at the landscape of evangelical and orthodox Christianity, I naturally thought like David Reed and others, how can the love of God and Spirit of Christ be with this mass of confusion? But, on closer exam, there was a uniting purpose, the focus on Christ and submission to Christ. Likewise, while former JW’s and dissenters and sceptics disagree on form and approaches, the uniting goal is awakening the general and curious public and current members who find themselves burdened, confused, conflicted and afflicted.
Getting into a box, a habit, of comfort, I found myself thinking I had to cope with the conditions and treatment I received from JW’s. The answer was, I didn’t–even if JW’s were THE only way, I didn’t have to tolerate the treatment–conform–like a robot. Faded. Then, I started unwinding the trap. I think like most, I stripped the GB of its authority, then started researching where this stuff was made.
And, likewise, with how one approaches disengaging from the Watchtower, it is on your terms, there is no hierarchy that will ostracize you or call you into a kangaroo court for not posting You Tube videos, or posting You Tube videos. A lovely video on this subject is posted on You Tube somewhere that describes the lovely rainbow of persons disengaging from the Watchtower.
Job 30:20-31:
“I cry out to you, God, but you do not answer;
I stand up, but you merely look at me.
You turn on me ruthlessly;
with the might of your hand you attack me.
You snatch me up and drive me before the wind;
you toss me about in the storm.
I know you will bring me down to death,
to the place appointed for all the living.
Surely no one lays a hand on a broken man
when he cries for help in his distress.
Have I not wept for those in trouble?
Has not my soul grieved for the poor?
Yet when I hoped for good, evil came;
when I looked for light, then came darkness.
The churning inside me never stops;
days of suffering confront me.
I go about blackened, but not by the sun;
I stand up in the assembly and cry for help.
I have become a brother of jackals,
a companion of owls.
My skin grows black and peels;
my body burns with fever.
My lyre is tuned to mourning,
and my pipe to the sound of wailing.”
Oh, wow. I knew you’d had some flack for for being against agressive activism, but I didn’t know the extent. I had a quick look at a certain Youtube channel; it seems like the embarrasing avoid-eye-contact-and-slowly-back-away kind of crazy, unfortunately. Sad that people would put so much effort into being offended and confrontational. I hope they are able to gain a measure of perspective at some point.
It strikes me that trying to change someone’s opinion on agressive activism may be somewhat like trying to use logic with a person in a high control group who has been indoctrinated with phobias. I.e. the more direct you are the worse things get.
I agree that it’s important to learn there’s no one, single ex-JW community that can always be relied upon to be a utopia. Life is too complex and messy for that. But there are plenty of people who we are able to bond with, whatever our religious beliefs or lack thereof, and they don’t always have to be ex-JWs. As mentioned in a recent JW podcast, people who have no direct experience of JWs are often very understanding and supportive, and even genuinely curious.
Anyway, I hope that you’re able to maintain your public stance on these things without having to deal with wildly confrontational people directly, and that you’re able to keep positive for the benefit of readers who may be on their way out. If you want to blow off steam privately and need someone to listen, I’m here. :)
I hope you never stop your activism. You have helped too many people escape the cult, or at least feel justified in leaving.
You have never claimed to be perfect, quite the contrary.
Who knows what the true motives of your detractors are!
Surely some of these issues are just a matter of jumping to conclusions too quickly and misunderstanding your motives, which are obviously not fired by money, but instead, to expose Watchtower.
I think Mike and Kim should keep their focus on exposing Watchtower and pay no mind to anything you do that they don’t agree with…problem solved!
I recently turned fifty-seven years of age but began having doubts about my faith in my twenties. I went through years of guilt and family stress as I drifted away. I only wish I could have had the help of this web site and Lloyd’s insight, intellectual honesty and courage. I am truly amazed that he possesses such skills being such a young man. Others have already given support, I only wish to express mine as well and to thank him for the interesting, focused presentations, videos, and articles. As a resident of the U.S. I am embarrassed at some of the rambling incoherent nonsense posted by some of my countrymen. Thank you Lloyd, you are appreciated!
I have a complicated relationship with the exjw community. I tried to get involved when I was newly out, 15ish years ago, but the fighting and bible quoting put me off. My journey was long and lonely and I would have loved to have known other people who could relate. During my son’s more recent attempt to break away, I was reintroduced to the community. In the sea of conflict, there are islands of sanity. I believe you are one. Your calm manner and fact based videos have proven to be a great help in my son’s journey into free thought, and you let me know that I’ve never really been alone. We have all been damaged by this cult, some more than others. But now we have the choice to be loving, kind, accepting and decent to one another. Don’t let the muggles get you down.
They are in the minority it would seem. I don’t think you need to doubt yourself over any of this. Don’t get sucked into their crazy.
Sometimes I find myself conflicted about how I feel about people who are still JWs. I was born in and left at 19. I believed for years there was something wrong with me for leaving. Adult JWs were my captors and abusers and it is hard sometimes to show sympathy for them. There does seem to be a balance of narcissists and their supply in the organization. Kids were always supply for these assholes. At times like that I enjoy some aggressive activism. Then I think about the couple who’s son committed suicide after leaving the borg. I saw them both drunk at a bar a few years ago. They paid a high price for their mistake. Mostly the only reason I contribute at all is because to get the kids out we have to get their parents out. It is hard for me to understand an adult going along with any of this BS and sometimes I feel like they get what they deserve.
I probably need some therapy. I can see how someone would feel the need to rage on them.
Lloyd, I respect that each of us has our own belief. I have made a conscience decision that it’s not my job to judge anyone.
I personally still believe in a higher power, a Creator of the Universe and I have faith that at some future point his Son Jesus will judge each person because he can see into a persons’ heart, no matter who or what they claim they are. I have no concrete proof of that, but then that’s why it’s called faith.
It sets a bar to reach for. A purpose to my life. When I die and if all that I’ve prayed for doesn’t come, I will have lived a life of love and peace, leaving this world a better place. That knowledge is “enough” for me.
One of the clearest messages I get from the Bible is that we should treat other people the way that we would like to be treated. That puts the responsibility for everything I say and do on me. Labels are only words. It is our actions that matter.
I always enjoy the articles on here, even if I don’t leave a comment. While the articles themselves are interesting and informative to me, the reason that I keep coming back is because this is the closest thing to “Home” that I have found on the net. I have seen some troubled people pass through here, but I have never felt such unconditional love and acceptance so deeply as I feel on your site.
I don’t feel so alone in this world because here I can associate with people who have gone through the same things I have and who understand how great our grief is and exactly what we have lost. We are forever bound by a shared experience which no one understands but us.
After the dissolution, disappointment and loss we have all suffered, and are still dealing with the fallout, it leaves little wonder that the process has affected each one of us individually and we all are in different stages of trying to put our lives back together on a new foundation because our old one, well it crumbled away under our feet. No one can do it for us, we are the only one who can put our lives back together but we are free and we are making our own choices! We can help each other.
I will have to digest your words here and what they mean to me as I was not aware of the situation. I do offer my love and support to you.
I am sorry that you are being treated hatefully and disrespectfully by former JWs or anyone else for that matter. No one deserves that when they are only trying to help others.
As far as “Freedom of Conscience” goes, I got a free copy from Hulu.com before they became what they are now. An internet search will pull up other sites to get free access to his book. I think Raymond Franz would be happy to know that so many of us have benefited from his book. It is a light drawing us in from a place of great darkness.
I even bought a copy on half.com for $10.00 a couple of years ago.
Sometimes people turn their pain into anger and hate and have to find a place to put it. I have found that the more anger and hate you see in someone it is in direct proportion to the depth of their pain. You have a target on your back because of the stand you have taken.
I have never told you this Lloyd, but I love you like a brother and I can’t thank you enough for being just who you are.
Your loving sister
Very nice loving,comforting and sincere word from u to Lloyd.
Beautiful post.
@ imacg
Very touching comment, good to hear Lloyd’s web site is helping many to “get a grip” if you will.
WT Corporation is just another ‘me too’ religion.
How can anyone (JWs) truly said, god is blessing the organization’.
Forget the past 175 years of bad history, look at the past 5 years – all the changes, flip-flops on doctrines, the begging of money, and more money, lawsuits, downsizing of the watchtower Magz, printing, and the sell off of assembly halls, kingdom halls, DOs, on and on.
WT Corporation is not good business.
Wall Street guros would be saying, ‘Sell – sell – sell – sell WT Corporation stock’.
WT Corporation is not good business.
If your still a believer, read your bible. It’s a good read – and comforting.
Stay strong – you have many unconditional agape love – true friends @ JWSurvey.
Peace out,
I am fairly new to this on-line ex-JW scene, so I am not aware of the history between the factions of the community, but I still have an opinion and a story that I am going to share a bit of here. I have been inactive since my 20’s (now 46) and have periodically tried to go back, but the panic attacks associated with it were too much.
I finally had the courage to look at ‘apostate’ sites this past summer and immediately noticed there are some major differences in the ex-JW community. Some sites are very aggressive, posting odd things that seemed incredulous to me. Others were factual and helpful. I immediately bookmarked every site so I would not forget, but it took only a few short weeks for me to start methodically deleting some. After years of indoctrination and what I feel was (still is) JW harassment, why on earth would I leave only to be subjected to more?
One of the first things I did when I decided to leave the JWs was complete my grade 12. During that process I had to write an essay on fear. What was I afraid of? Well the first obvious things i.e. bugs/snakes etc. but I decided to write it on something real to me and that was evangelists. They, to this day, scare the crap out of me and it does not matter what religion they are attached to. When listening to them I perceive them as ranting and raving rather than helpful. My mother converted when I was 4 and she always fit this role, terrorizing me as a child, badgering me as a teen which resulted in my baptism at 17.
I cannot support anyone who uses these methods in any aspect of life. I can fully understand why some would abandon religion altogether after the Watchtower and why some just gravitate to another religion or belief. Like many of the ex-JW community, I still have family involved, and friends that I love like family. Why would I ever terrorize them? I love them and I want to help them see the facts as they are presented through research. I have thought very seriously about becoming a strategic activist, but I am concerned about being effective and not harmful.
My point? Even before I knew of the issues with Cedars and the others, I had deleted the others from my FB followings, YouTube and bookmarked web pages/sites. I cannot be subjected to anymore ravings of those who believe in whatever it is that they think they believe in. I want you, John Evans, to know just how important your site is, not only to me, but the 5 adult children I have whom I share your posts with. Combined with Barbara Anderson, JWstruggle and JWfacts, you have helped us all here lift the thick veil of the Watchtower from our lives and feel confident that life is worth living.
Congratulations to you and the others who seek to help, not hurt. You are in my heart and I thank you.
I feel like to response behalf Lloyd.
Thanks for kind & loving responses like yours.It show that many ex JW are still loving and kind people with open mind! peace & love
Everyone needs haters. If you don’t have haters, you probably aren’t doing anything worthwhile. It’s when you find yourself in the majority that you need to take a step back and reevaluate.
Keep up the good work Lloyd. I can’t bring myself to watch those people, they seem too intense & like stirring up trouble. Like everyone else here has said, you give well balanced information. You did well to stay quiet & let it run it’s course.
I think that I would like to consider being the strategic activist because I don’t like confrontation either.
Lloyd,
I think you and I both began our exit at around the same time. I think we also both started post on another exjw website around the same time too. Our journeys are very much the same. I would personally like to thank you because if it was not for you and wifibandit’s hard work my wife might still be in. I have not seen the other site you speak of but, just from hearing about it, I don’t think I ever would. I also do not agree with aggressive activism; I think its off putting and only add to the stigma held by JWs about us. I do think that now is the time to take advantage of the horrible truths being revealed about the Org and its policies. Personally, the best method I use is the socratic method. Along with the information provided here and other sites, this method can lead one to question on their own accord. Anyway, thank you and keep on the watch Cedars ;)
What is the Socratic method?
Evangelical ex-jw have simply traded one misguided ideology for another. They moved from one ignorant tribe of baffoons to a different one. Cedars, keep up the good work and don’t let those pitiful imbeciles get to you.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with the statement “Those who leave can be riddled with so much resentment and frustration that many can’t help but re-direct it at their fellow ex-members”.
It’s funny, just today in a session with my therapist, I talked about all the things in my life that I have fought to overcome since leaving JWs, and how angry I was that even so, I have found another way that the cult has residually, indirectly, caused disaster again in my life, 7 years later. My therapist asked me: “Who do you feel that anger towards?” inviting me to give space for that anger, allow myself to feel it against those responsible and thereby work through it. I sat there and said that was the problem — I could find no one on whom to direct the anger. 8 guys in Brooklyn I’ve never met? The collective body of JWs? My parents for raising me in it? It was all so abstract, I couldn’t pin any object for my anger down. So, this is what happens: a target stares out from one’s computer screen, talking about this shared disastrous past, and says things that perhaps one disagrees with, or rubs one the wrong way, this person talking can very easily become the target for one’s rage, if one hasn’t had the opportunity or help to work through it.
I think the relative anonymity or removal of the Internet also amplifies this opportunity to rage, and gives a person the outlet to discharge that rage without having to feel empathy for the one who is the convenient target. Providing a momentary relief from the actual rage for which they have no fingerable target.
I know that doesn’t make it any easier, but I’m glad that you have the ability to see it for what it is — I hope it makes it easier to bear the brunt of it knowing that others acknowledge it too.
Thanks Amber, it does make it easier! I’m glad to know I’m not the only one who has seen firsthand how pervasive indoctrination can be.
I think when people leave the Org. fully or just mentally they can either escape like pent up pressure shooting off in any direction or they can escape in a controlled way. we are all so very different and our new freedom has sent us all off in many different directions. My direction led here and I am so grateful it did. I still believe in a God…. though I find it hard to use the NWT… I still pray though I use Jehovah less and less… just because I feel I can no longer trust anything the WT told me. It’s very sad to have the carpet pulled out from beneath you.
Keep up the good work Lloyd. I for one am behind you.
Tara, just remember how the name Jehovah was invented, the history of it is quite convoluted and even the WT admits that it is just a made-up name of ancient Hebrew letters and random Greek vowels. But all that aside, I share your belief in an intelligent creator – God – who I can’t even imagine gives a hoot what name you use when you pray. I don’t even think he cares if you believe in him or not. All religions use man made rules and regulations to trivialize God; like he really cares what clothes we wear or holidays we celebrate or anything else that makes us human.
Take heart John Cedars! You do a great job! Your YouTube videos and sensible, sound logic are refreshing. There’s no way to not have critics or some who will attack your personal character in this life. Keep up your good work…don’t loose sleep over some hot headed individuals…
Cedars,
No, please don’t keel over. Yes, please redress the balance. I was out a few years before JWSurvey was up and at times I felt alone in my views that aggressive activism was the antithesis to waking up. I would try to reason with such ones about how it just cements in their heads that leaving makes you a lunatic. But those I talked to were just so angry I think it was more about expressing their feelings than helping any witnesses.
The first time I read your comments it was on other ex-jw sites, and I thought, “who is this guy?” It was so refreshing! At last, someone who gets it! But I must confess, I went to a therapist when I was exiting to process my anger and fears, which helped tremendously. It seems reasonable that most coming out of any high-control group could use a few sessions on the couch.Know what I mean? Therefore, I totally agree and support your stance that this atmosphere of violence amongst ex-jw’s has everything to do with the mental conditioning of the cult, which needs to be restored to healthy function. I also applaud your not thinking that we have to create another think-a-like group to replace that which we came out of. We’re humans. Doing the cookie cutter thing only causes pain. Long live JWSURVEY.
Dear Lloyd,
So terribly sorry to hear about the abuse you and your family have suffered. Yes, you are correct in saying that because of the horrible indoctrination of JWs and the belief system used of hating everyone who is not part of your collective unity, they attack and destroy each other. Many feel they are entitled to have a “gloves off” approach since leaving, and they do not see that they are simply mimicking the very people they have left.
My husband and I appreciate all that you are doing and your very evenhanded way of dealing with all things JW. It’s often a case of taking out their grievances on whomever is closest and easiest targets. They cannot touch the WT or any of the GB and all that pent up anger and frustration must go somewhere. I am so sorry they have decided to use you and your work as their whipping boy. Please know that there are many of us who check your blog daily to see your thoughts and the thoughts of the people who write with you. You are a gifted writer with the ability to get your points across without “standing on a soap box”. Thank you for all you do and please keep it going.
Just now seeing this. Hmm, I think to any person whose beliefs are evidence based this situation is very clear. I also agree with what many of the other comments are basically saying, the great thing about leaving JWs is you are now free to express your opinions and beliefs on all of this, so good for you. No reason to bottle them up, get the truth out there, and you did a good job doing it. I truly believe that if you are true to yourself you will continue to find your voice in this world, and continue to help people…and as an agnostic your words have always “clicked” with me, from the first day I read them. I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. Ugh what is the saying? “Religion poisons everything…” Not belief in a god, higher power etc necessarily.. But religion.. Oh I wish you’d go away.
You know the world is waking up to the pitfalls of religious cults. Jehovah Witnesses are only just a small part of it. A sad part of it. Racism, bigotry, deceit and deception, narcis attitudes only make for anger and hate! It’s a sad part that even if you were raised as a witness, it’s not until the point that you leave, that you realize that some of those traits are prevalent in the Watchtower Society. The more you look at the start of Jehovah Witnesses, that those traits were part and parcel of how this organization started. You don’t even realize that you may even have some of those attitudes. Enough to make you sick to your stomach. I only know that no religion will ever have that much control over my life ever again. Anyone who think that by using any of those traits to make a point is only hurting themselves more than they realize. Take God out of the picture and ask yourself, who are you? Why are you here? What good are you doing for your fellow man? The blessings that we have is being alive! What you do every day makes life worth living! Exposing injustice takes courage and a willingness to ask the right questions! Making a person start to use their thinking skills is a must if you want them to leave this cult. Those people who have the courage and willingness to help people in a responsible way will reach more peoples hearts than anyone else. Verse those who use force and anger, accomplish really nothing at all except make that horrible wall this organization builds to protect it’s power, stronger. Thank you Lloyd for being such an honorable man! Your courage and strength are much appreciated. You are loved.
JWFacts was my first, JWSurvey was my second– and I haven’t gone looking anywhere else. I know there are other good ones out there, but so far I’ve been very content with what I’ve found here, and on Mr. Grundy’s invaluable site. I can also honestly say that, even as an atheist myself, I appreciate that neither site officially pushes atheism.
I love the inclusive nature of the JWSurvey comments section. Of course, I’m in favor of people being exposed to the rational arguments in favor of atheism, but sites with a primary goal of exposing the JW Org as a cult will clearly be more effective in that important work if they mostly refrain from diluting it with articles featuring potentially divisive issues, as evidenced by the success of this site.
Thank you very much, Lloyd.
Why do you believe that “watchtower” or Jehovah’s witnesses are a cult as a youth I strayed away and found my return back to the truth and it has changed my life for the better. Not here for controversy but the internet is filled with slander and so much hate. The world is truly in the power of the wicked one
Why is the Watchtower a cult? Hmmm, let me list a few things!!!
1) 7 men are said to be Gods spokesman and what they say cannot be questioned or challenged.
2) They envoke a fear induced phobia (i.e. Armegeddon, 2nd Death) to control the masses
3) They demand absolute allegiance and adherence
4) They use disfellowshipping, shunning and loss of association to control
5) They use fear control, information control, emotional and physical control tactics
These are but a few on a long list that confirms its a cult..
1.all things are open to question and are based solely on Jehovah’sprinciples and not men’s. Somethings have even been overturned that are questionable. Different understandings have came to light on a lot of subjects.
2.fear induced phobia not at all the fear of god is that to fear a father, like you dont want to not please your parents by not listening to them. Armageddon you have a choice to be part of the world or choose not to be part of the world. That is why you have free will. No one is controlling you. Deeper understanding and reading of revelation which is a hard book to swallow, but pray for understanding and it can be granted to you.
3. Adherence not to an organization but the Jehovah’s principles, yes! If its not in the bible then we as an organization do not adhere to it. Take the apostles for example they walked with Jesus and they struggled cause they were imperfect but by faith stood firm and continued Jesus work.
4. I had a hard time with this and always wonder why? But think about it you are a coach of a team one of your star player is bringing others down and leading them off of the path of success that you have worked hard to finally get too. Do you cut the whole team off, let the sickness continue to spread or remove the negative one that has lost his way to save the team. Also is it not written in Corinthians that these bad associations can ruin the useful habits. So only fear would be that of not pleasing Jehovah especially if you are baptized and dedicated.
5.could be covered in the same lines of 4. And 3.
By definition though any organization could be categorized as a cult. Even websites, Justin beiber fans and so much more. But we as witnesses are not a cult just like you will say that this site or the extremist that slander the organization would say they are not as well.
@ Drew,
1. Not true.
You can not question anything, or your elders will label you an apostate.
2. Not true.
WT Corporation takes away your “free will” or freedom of choice.
How? they impose You – to live your life in paradisic conditions, in a unjust, wicked system.
This is in not logical. And not safe.
3. Not true.
Question 3, was recently changed to be baptized to a directed organization.
Jehovah and Jesus Christ is not recognized.
4. Untrue statement.
WT Corporation is a contratarian, to everything Jesus Christ was teaching. Please re-read the gospels and size up WT Corporations beliefs vs. Jesus Christ teachings, and you will find a huge discrepancy.
Peace out,
1. Is true I study with an elder
2. Is true yes they say try to live as if you are in paradise but we know we are in a constant wrestling with the world. Jesus said they will hate you like they hate me cause im no , part of the world.
3. Sorry the organization doesn’t demand complete adherence, you know who does. Jehovah does, love jehovah your god with your whole heart and so on.
Then the gospels and our beliefs I turn you to jw.org and look up t
Jw beliefs then you can follow it to the gospels there and see if they line up and if you find a discrepancy then please point it out to me. Thanks
@ Drew,
It’s always good to see ownership and improvement on your being. However, I believe all religions may fall under the umbrella of a cult.
How do you feel about the LDC, Watchtower Corporation term for Local Design Construction implemented 1-2015, which by the way is suppose to handle all the new commercial format Kingdom Halls, three cities were highlighted – Dallas-Ft.Worth, Miami and LA. Then 3 months later – all KH surplus cash was mandated to be sent to WT Corporation, then last month – all construction has been halted. The exception is Warwick – the contaminated toxic site, yes, you read correct.
Do you really believe, the god name Jehovah, is directing by holy spirit the Watchtower Corporation, by way of introducing the LDC roll out and then halt all construction, perhaps due too mismanagement or embezzlement of your donations or most recently madatory monthly tithing?
Do you believe it’s logical and reasonable – the so call “new light” or old light to new light. Then new light to old light.
It’s time to get off the merry-go-round.
World history has taught us, countries fought in unity to gain there freedom. Do you agree with this statement? Then you would also agree, Watchtower Corporation has perfected by way of the courts, – the first amendment – which is the protection of freedom to express oneself.
Watchtower Corporation however, has policies in place, You can not question anything right or wrong the 7 men (GB) say or do. And this also includes your local elders. You can’t be on this web site, (don’t ask – don’t tell – right.) And the list goes on and on, You can’t do this or that, and the WT Corporation likes to play mind control, oops, I mean, mind games- to place or play the Fear Factor of Armageddon – is just around the corner, have you heard about this? Let me guess for the past 150 years. It’s documented in the WT Magz.
In summary, I’m happy your better off – returning back to JWs world.
This blog JWSurvey believes – Unity in Freedom for Thruth.
Peace out,
You are correct Armageddon has been said to come but way past a 150 years. Really ever since genesis where the first prophecy of satan striking Jesus in the heel and him crushing his head. The bible says we dobt know the time or date, but you cant tell me since 1914 times have not gotten worse and worse. Famine, wars, prejudice the list grows and grows so does the numbers of deaths. Jehovah states in the bible that he is not slow as you think he is he is really wanting everyone to be saved and not suffer. Based off history the bible is accurate in all its prophecies so why not Armageddon?
I don’t know where it comes from, about the control of my site browsing privileges, but im open to converse freely im not going to be reprimanded for coming across a site full of apostates that you feel have the wrong views.
Its funny most people have a run in with 1 group of witnesses and are turned off cause of those imperfect people’s actions. Would be like me not reading cedars post and saying he’s just like these other radicals. We are all imperfect trying to serve a perfect god. Man make mistakes. But its funny how even atheists though on the brink of death even find time to acknowledge god.
Thanks minion on that acknowledgement I appreciate it.
@ Drew,
Please print out the dialogue your having on this web site and share this with your elders.
Have them ( the elders) explain which part of our conversation is in error.
And share the message of error with all of us. And You be the hero, only accept the challenge if you willing and able, and of soundness of mind.
Peace out,
Actually I planned on sharing thos with him today as reading the accusations I was compelled to speak instead of reading quietly in the shadows. Not a challenge at all my fellow neighbors are in.need of enlightenment so I wouldnt be doing my utmost if I kept quiet.
In regards disfellowshipping,
As a long time elder here is my comment . Obviously we would naturally shun someone who would harm us or our family in a physical, emotional, financial, sexual, spiritual way…however, just like the court of law in a free society, there has to be safeguards in the execution
of justice. ..otherwise, citizens can be subject to abusive miscarriages of authority, Sadly, that is what we have in JW’S judicial process, even compared with the Sanhedrin court of Jesus day, they were sooo much more transparent. ..frankly the fact that a person can be disfellowshipping for “teaching /believing ” a “truth ” other then what is currently taught by watchtower , even if that “TRUTH ” changes, in essence means Jesus was.truly an apostate and deserved the sentence he received.
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
Drew,
I suggest that you check out the mis- quoting in the origins of life brochure, and then ask yourself this question.. The only one that matters: IS it true?
Truth does not need mis-quoting and lies to back it up, simply because its true… IF the WT really is god’s organisation guided by HS then why would it need to resort to quote mining and lying to back up its claims? For more examples of lying by WT see the Australian Royal commission videos of elders and Mark Sanderson Lying in a court of law. Truth does not need lies to back it up… Would god need you to lie to defend him?
AS Lloyd always says Its either true or it isnt… Go to http://www.jwfacts.com and do some honest research and you will find the answer. To me the answer was right there in black and white when i compared the original sources to the quotes in the Origins of Life Brochure.
One last thing i ask you to try… If you feel that you have freedom of thought and opinion at the kingdom hall, If there is a doctrine that you disagree with stand up at the meeting and say you disagree, see what happens? Does that thought fill you with dread? Then you already have your answer as to whether its a cult or not.. But by all means give it a go.
I wish you all the best in your search for honest answers, you have taken a very important step just being here keep going and questioning everything….
I went to your site and have heard of some of these accusations and some I have not. The elders that have committed those heinous acts are brought to judgement if those acts they were accused of are true. The organization has changed throughout the decades and it has progressed for thr better. You say you see in black and white so do I. All scriptures are inspired is what the bible states, man make mistakes but jehovah doesn’t and that is who I worship not an organization. No other organizations I know though have adhere to Jehovah’s bible principles. There may have been some bad apples there may have been wrong clarification on somethings like the types and anti types or the fall of Babylon but they keep gods commandments. I thank you guys for your thoughts and views but in my search for god throughout all religions personal study.and so on, I see no evidence of cult traits. I see ones that leave the truth because they loose faith in Armageddon, they loose faith in god, they loose faith in the organization cause they look at the man instead of the message. I seen friends go pursue their on endeavors but return when they cant find the answers. Lol some of you guys make it sound like its the matrix. I pray all you guys find your way and honestly may it lead to Jehovah.
@ Drew, your last post at 5:25 am,
I’m happy, Your happy you have return to organized religion also known as the Christian congregation of JWs.
Your research on questions you have, your looking for answers. And that’s a good thing, we all went down this road, and we exited off the merry-go-round. That’s Not a bad thing.
We all believed and bled JW mentality.
However, ask yourself, ‘why does the organization continue to flip-flop on doctrines’,? According to G.Jackson (GB) he testified and said they (GB) are Guardians-of-Doctrine (do you see a word trend G-O-D)
Why does it protect child abuser’s within your congregation and remain in your presence?
The abuser’s and the crime are nneverreported to the police. Do you believe Jesus Christ or Jehovah, would do the same?
Do you believe unconditional brotherly love is true and real inside your congregation?
Of which an elder or the members of your congregation would stop everything he’s doing and go and visit an unbeliever at his death bed, knowing well his sins are about to be paid in full (Rom.,6:23) and never visit this person? What are the elders thinking.?
In the corporate world, as you know, the expression ‘No room for error’. Expectations and the bar will be set high, deliver or be delivered.’
Ask yourself, ‘If holy spirit is really guiding and blessing the organization, then please explain to All of us, the serious legal and financial problems Watchtower Corporation is currently (2015) experiencing.
Soon, the legal courts will decide the state of affairs of WT Corporation.
You know, the gospel of Jesus Christ, never mentions the man made beliefs (WT Corp) of my comments.
I’m happy for your continued research about your doubts.
Peace out,
Drew,
“The organization has changed throughout the decades and it has progressed for the better”.
I think that you will find if you study the Australian Royal Commissions findings that the Organisation refuses to change for the better.
“No other organizations I know though have adhere to Jehovah’s bible principles”.
That is not true, have you been inside of other religions to prove that? I’m sorry but that’s just a thought stopping cliche that the WT indoctrinates members with.
“they loose faith in the organization cause they look at the man instead of the message”.
That’s because the “organisation” is run by “men” who’s “message” is to be obedient even when they are flat out lying & get things wrong with no apologies for the aftermath.
That’s when you can say that it is a cult.
@ Drew,
I look forward to see your findings – the message of error, from jwsurvey.
I hope your elders will give you a platform and voice. This may require time, perhaps a follow up with you.
Nevertheless, continue to question everything. As a previous comment said, ‘you disagree what you hear at the kingdom Hall, stand up and speak your mind’. This will be a bold move, assertive, believe from within your heart.
And remember, courage – is the beginning to conquest of Fear!
And for the record, jwsurvey is – “Unity in Freedom for Thruth” be sure to incorporate this language, when you converse with your elders.
I’m happy, for your happiness returning to be a JW.
Peace out,
@Drew, (round one – Drew is the hero)
Perhaps you did or not converse with your elders.
Based on your comments, you mention key words, such as faith and strong beliefs. Then you acknowledge the flip-flops or changes of the organization. In one of your previous comments, you said, “man changes ideas for ‘new light’ but Jehovah doesn’t”, your comments make Jehovah look confused and clueless to make a correct decision. A lesser god of no value.
No one was denying your faith or beliefs. You have misunderstood our perspective.
If your up for another challenge, (round 2) consider the following and converse with your elders, and ask, ‘to find fault or the message in error’, then ask to explain to you, so you can enlighten us.
The task:
‘why does the organization continue to flip-flop on doctrines’,? According to G.Jackson (GB) he testified and said they (GB) are Guardians-of-Doctrine (do you see a word trend G-O-D)
Why does it protect child abuser’s within your congregation and remain in your presence?
The abuser’s and the crime are never reported to the police. Do you believe Jesus Christ or Jehovah, would do the same?
Do you believe unconditional brotherly love is true and real inside your congregation?
Of which an elder or the members of your congregation would stop everything he’s doing and go and visit an unbeliever at his death bed, knowing well his sins are about to be paid in full (Rom.,6:23) and never visit this person? What are the elders thinking.?
Ask yourself, ‘If holy spirit is really guiding and blessing the organization, then please explain to All of us, the serious legal and financial problems Watchtower Corporation is currently (2015) experiencing.
Soon, the legal courts will decide the state of affairs of WT Corporation.
The last question to ask your elders, ‘why would Jehovah, use his holy spirit and direct the WT to purchase 250 acres of toxic waste land in Warrick NY?
Then use free labor – of your friends and expose them at risk? (major lawsuits coming from the volunteers)
Get back with your results, to determine who wins round 2.
I’m happy for your continued research about your doubts.
Peace out
@minion I will ask and return with the answers you seek by Sunday.
I think part of the issue may be the fact that these types of organizations seem to attract extreme personalities. Individuals who crave uniqueness and will often adopt a belief system that will set them apart from others. However after discovering that their beliefs are false they redirect their efforts toward equally “unique” but far less regulated belief systems. Or in some cases they completely abandone and even resent the idea of an organized structure of beliefs connected to a specific religion and instead become an anchorite. Worst of all are the ones who after being set free from the organization become bitter reflections of those from whom they were liberated. It may be a side effect of the number of years these individuals have spent fighting a war that they realize no longer exists. The drive to fight is still there but a new war is needed, a new enemy toward which they can direct their efforts. I believe Raymond Franz’s second book In Search Of Christian Freedom had a chapter that I feel is very apropos. The fourth chapter describes recurring patterns and specifically describes the recurring patterns of religiously minded individuals attempting to form and govern a belief structure. Often times the founders of these religious groups leave their particular denominations because of practices that they deem unacceptable. However these ones after some years often adopt similar if not the same practices and essentially become the evil which they swore to fight against. It’s unfortunate but you see this in the exJW community. Wile verbally stating to detest the silencing methods and intimidation tactics used by the organization they often employ similar methods to those who do not prescribe to their particular dogmas. I sincerely hope that their efforts do not dissuade you from continuing your work. It’s only because of people like you who present a rational and concise analysis of the organization, that Objective, reasonable, logically minded individuals can hear a rational presentation of the truth. For years I was convinced that the exJW movement had no legitimacy and was everything that the society made them out to be. This was due to individuals like those whom you described. It is only because of people like you and Paul Grundy that I was able to see that there were rational and sincere men and women within the movement. People who simply wanted open and honest discussion and the freedom to reason and come to conclusions without investigation being dissuaded or even criminalized by an organization. I guess all I have to say is keep your head up, you have a lot to be proud of. Because of you many people are waking up, for some (I should say most) your videos and articles are exactly what they need. There will always be controversy no matter what position is taken. Unfortunately that’s just human nature. However with issues like this
the lines are usually drawn between the rational and the fanatical, and I for one am glad that you are on the side of reason. Keep up the good work Lloyd
Albert this is superb reasoning cheers ruthlee
Well said Albert ! Thanks for your perspective !